booke and read the place The which after I had read I sayd it made nothing against me but against the Arriās and other heretiks against whom Ireneus wrote prouīg that they weare not to be credityd because they did teache and folowe after straunge doctrine in Europa that the chefe churche of the same was founded by Peter and Paule and had to his tyme continued by faythfull succession of the faythfull Bishops in preachyng the true Gospel as they had receyued it of the Apostles and nothyng lyfe to the late sprong heretikes c. Wherby he cōcludeth against thē that they were not to be heard neyther to be credited The which thing yf you my lordes be able to proue nowe of the churche of Rome then had you as good autoritie against me in my cause nowe as Ireneus had against those heretikes But the church of Rome hath swarued frō that truthe and simplicitie of the Gospell which it maintained in Ireneus tyme and was vncorrupted frō that which it is nowe Wherfore your lordships can not iustly applie the autoritie of Ireneus to the churche of Rome nowe which is so manifestlye corrupted from the primatiue Churche London So wil you say stil it maketh nothing for the purpose what so euer autoritie we bring and wil neuer be satisfyed Phil. My lorde when I do by iust reason proue that the autorities which be brought against me do not make to the purpose as I haue already proued I trust you wil receyue myne answere worcest It is to be proued most manifestly by al auncient wryters that the sea of Rome hath alwayes folowed the truthe and neuer was deceyued vntil of late certayne heretikes had defaced the same Phil. Let that be proued I haue done worcest Nay you are of suche arrogācie singularitie vayne glorie that you wil not se it be it neuer so wel proued Phil. Ha my lordes is it nowe tyme thynke you for me to folowe singularitie or vaynglorie synce it is nowe vpō daunger of my lyfe and death not onlye presently but also before God to come and I knowe yf I dye not in the true faythe I shall dye euerlastingly again I knowe yf I do not as you would haue me you will kyll me and many thousandes moo Yet had I leuer perishe at your handes than to perishe eternally And at this tyme I haue lost al my cōmodities of this worlde and nowe lye in a colhouse where a man would not laye a dogge with the which I am wel contented Cole Where are you hable to proue that the churche of Rome hath erred at any tyme and by what historie certaine it is by Eusebius that the churche was stablyshed at Rome by Peter and Paule and that Peter was Bisshop .xxv. yeres at Rome Phil. I knowe wel that Eusebius so wryteth but yf we compare that which S. Paule writeth to the Galathiās the first it wil manifestly appere the cōtrarie that he was not halfe so long there He lyued not past .xxxv. yeares after he was called to be an Apostle And Paul maketh mencion of his abidyng after Christes death more then .xviij. yeres Colle What did Peter wryte vnto the Galathians Phil. No I saye Paule maketh mencion of Peter wrytyng to the Galathians of his abiding And further I am hable to proue bothe by Eusebius and other historiographers that the church of Rome hath manifestly erred and at this present doth erre because she agreeth not with that which they wrote The primatiue churche dyd vse according to the Gospel And ther nedeth none other profe but cōpare the one with the other London Hearke my lordes wise parabable I maye compare this man to a certayne man I reade of which fell into a disperation and went into a wood to hang him selfe And when he came there he went vewyng of euery tree and could fynde none on the which he myght vouchesaffe to hang himselfe But I wil not applie it as I myght I praye you maister doctor go forth with him Nother you nor they are hable in this case Colle My lorde there be on euery syde on me that be better hable to answer him And I loue not to falle in disputacion for that nowe a dayes a man shall but sustayne shame and obloquy therby of the people I had leuer shewe my mynde in wrytyng Phil. And I had leuer that you should so do then otherwyse For thē a mā may better iudge of your wordes then by argument And I beseche you so doo But yf I were a ryche man I durst wager an hundreth poundes that you shal not be hable to shewe that you haue sayd to be decreed by a general coūsel in Athanasius tyme. For this I am sure of that it was concluded by a general counsel in Affrica many yeres after that none of Affrica vnder payne of excōmunication should apeale to Rome the which decre I am suer they would not haue made yf by the scriptures it had bene by an vniuersall counsell that all men should abyde and folowe the determinacion of the churche of Rome Colle But I can shewe that they reuoked that errour agayne Phil. So you saye maister doctour But I pray you shewe me where I haue hetherto heard nothing of you for my contentation but bare wordes without any autoritie London What I praye you ought we to dispute wyth you of our fayth Iustinian in the lawe hath a tytle De fide catholica to the contrarie Phil. I am certayne the ciuil lawe hath suche a constitucion but our fayth must not depende vpon the ciuil lawe For as S. Ambrose sayeth Non lex sed fides congregauit Ecclesiam Not the lawe but the gospel sayeth he hath gathered the church together worcest Maister Philpot you haue the spirite of pryde wherwith ye be ledde which wil not let you yelde to the truth Leaue it for shame Phil. Sir I am suer I haue the spirite of fayth by the which I speake at this present Neither am I ashamed to stand in my fayth Glocest What do you thynke yourselfe better learned then so many notable learned men as be here Phil. Elyas alone had the truthe whē there were foure hundreth priestes against him worcest Oh you would be coūted now for Helyas And yet I tel thee he was deceiued For he thought ther had ben none good but him selfe and yet he was deceyued for ther was .vii. hundreth besydes hym Phil. Yea but he was not deceyued in doctrine as the other .vii. hūdreth were worc By my fayth you are greatly to blame that you can not be content to be of the churche which euer hath ben of that faythful antiquitie Phil. My lorde I knowe Rome haue ben there where I sawe your lordship worc In dede I dyd flye from hence thither And I remember not that I sawe you there But I am sorye that you haue ben there for the wyckednes whych you haue sene there peraduēture causeth you to
do as you do Phil. No my lorde I do not as I do for that cause For I am taught otherwyse by the Gospel not altogether to refuse the minister for his euell lyuyng so that he bryng sounde doctrine out of Goddes boke worce Do you thinke that the vniuersal churche may be deceyued Phil. S. Paule to the Thessalonians prophecied that ther should come an vniuersall departing from the fayth in the latter dayes before the comming of Christ sayeng Non veniet Christus nisi venerit defectio prius That is Christ shall not come tyl ther come a departing fyrst Cole Yea I pray you howe take you the departyng there in S. Paul It is not ment of fayth but of the departing from the empyre For it is in Greke Apostasia Phil. Mary in dede you M. Doctour put me in good remembraunce of the meanyng of saynt Paule in that place For Apostasia is properlye a departyng from the faythe and therof commeth Apostata whiche properlye sygnyfyeth one that departeth from his fayth And saynt Paule in the same place after speaketh of the decaye of the Empire Cole Apostasia doth not only signifie a departing from the fayth but also frō the Empyre as I am hable to shewe phil I neuer red it so taken and when you shal be hable to shewe it as you saye in wordes I wil beleue it and not before morc I am sorye that you should be agaynst the christen world phil The worlde cōmonly and such as be called christians for the multitude hathe hated the truth and ben enemyes to the same Gloue Why maister Philpot do you thynke that the vniuersall churche hathe erred and you only to be in the truthe phil The churche that you are of was neuer vniuersal For two partes of the worlde which is Asia and Affrica neuer consented to the supremacie of the bishop of Rome as at this daye they do not neither do folowe his decrees Gloce. Yes in Florentines coūsel they did agree phil It was sayd so by false reporte after they of Asia and Affrica were gone home But it was not so in dede as the sequel of them al hitherto doth proue the contrarye Gloce. I praye you by whom wyl you be iudged in matters of controuersie which happen dayly phil By the worde of God For Christ sayeth in S Iohn̄ the worde that he spake shal be iudge in the later daye Gloc. What yf you take the worde one waye and I an other waye who shal be iudge then phil The primatiue Churche Gloc. I knowe you meane the doctours that wrote therof Phil. I meane verely so Gloc. What yf you take the doctours in one sence and I in an other who shal be iudge then Phil. Then let that be taken which is most agreable to Goddes worde Cole My lordes why do you trouble your selues to answer him in this mater it is not the thing which is layd to his charge but his errour of the sacrament and he to shyfte him selfe of that brought in an other matter Phil. This is the mater maister Cole to the which I haue referred al other questions and desire to be satisfyed worce It is wonder to se howe he stādeth with a fewe against a great multitude Phil. We haue almost as many as you For we haue Asya Affryca Germany Denmarke and a great part of Fraunce and daylye the nombre of the Gospel dothe increase so that I am credibly informed that for this religion in the which I stād and for that which I am like to diē a great multytude dothe daily com out of Fraūce through persecucion that the cities of Germanie be scarse hable to receaue them And therfore your lordship may be sure the worde of God wil one day take place So what you can to the contrarie worcest They were wel occupied to bring you suche newes and you haue ben well kept to haue suche resort vnto you thou art the arrogauntest and stoutest fond felowe that euer I knewe Phil. I pray your lordshipe to beare with my hastye speache for it is parte of my corrupte nature to speake somwhat hastly But for all that I meane with humilitie to do my dewty to your lordships London Master Philpot my lordes wil troble you no further at this tyme But you shall goo from whence you cam and haue suche fauour as in the meane while I can shew you and vpon wednesdaye next you shal be called agayne to be heard what you cā say for the mayntenaunce of your error Phil. My lord my desire is to be satisfied of you in that I haue required and your lordship shall fynde me as I haue said worcest We wyshe you as well as our selues Phil. I thinke the same my lordes but I feare you are deaceuyd and haue a zeale of your selues not according to knowledge worcest God send you more grace Phil. And also God increase the same in you open your eyes Nay God ryd his shepe from such wolues that you maie se to maintaine his truthe and his true church Than the bishopes rose vp and cōsulted together and caused a writing to be made In the which I thinke my bloude by them was bought and sold and therto they put to theyr handes and after this I was caryed to my cole howse agayne Thus endeth the fourth parte of this tragedye God hasten the ende therof to his glorye Amen BEcause I haue begonne to write vnto you of myne examinacions before the B. other more to satisfie your desire than it is any thing worthy to be written I haue thought yt good to write vnto you also that which hath ben of late that the same myght come to light which they do in darkenes priuy corners and that the world nowe the posteritie herafter might knowe howe vnorderlye vniustlye and vnlearnedlye these rauening wolues do procede agaynst the selye and faithful flocke of Christ and condēpne and persecute the syncere doctrine of Christ in vs which they are not hable by honest meanes to resyst but only by tyrannie and violence The examinacion of Iohn Philpot had before the bishoppes of Lōdon Rochester Couētre S. Asses I trow one other whose seas I know not Doctor storie Curtop D. Sauerson D. Pendletō with diuers other chaplaynes and gētlemen of the Quenes chamber with diuers other gentilmen in a galerye of my lord of Londons palace MAster Philpot come you hyther London I haue desired my lordes here other learned men to take som paynes once agayne and to do you good and because I do mynd to sit in iudgemēt on you to morowe as I am commaunded yet I would you should haue as muche fauour as I can shewe you yf you wil be any thing conformable Therfore plaie the wyse mā and be not singular in your opinion but be ruled by these learned men phil My lorde that you saye you will sit on me in iudgement to morowe I am glad therof For I was promised by them
dog sware by his christendom sence al the catholyke churche vntil these fewe yeares haue taken hym to be supreme head of the churche besydes this good man Ireneus Phil. That is not lykely that Ireneus so toke him or the primatiue churche For I am hable to shewe seuen general coūsels after Ireneus time wherin he was neuer so taken which maye be a sufficient profe that the catholike primatiue churche neuer toke hym for supreme head The other Bis This man wil neuer be satisfyed saye what we can It is but folly to reason any more with him Phil. Oh my lordes would you haue me satisfyed with nothing Iudge I praye you who of vs hath better autoritie he which bringeth the exāple of one man goyng to Rome or I that by these many general councelles am hable to proue that he was neuer so taken in many hūdreth yeres after Christ as by Nicene Ephesyne the fyrst and the second Calcedonen̄ Constantinopolitane Carthaginen̄ Auilien̄ Couentre Why wil ye not admit the churche of Rome to be the Catholyke churche phil Bicause it foloweth not the primatiue catholyke churche neyther agreeth with the same no more then an apple is lyke a nutte Couentre Wherin doth it discent Phil. Yt were to long to recite all but two thinge I wil name the supremacie and transubstāciation Curtop As for transubstantiation albeyt yt was set furth and decreed for an article of fayth not muche aboue thre hūdreth yeres yet yt was alwayes beleued in the churche London Yea that it was very well sayd of you master Curtoppe phil Ye haue sayd right that transubstanciation is but a late plantacion of the bishop of Rome and you are not hable to shew any auncient wryter that the primatiue churche did beleue any suche thinges And with this Curtop shranke awaye And immediatly after the ambassadoure of spayne cam in To whom my lord of London went leauing the other with me To whō I said my lordes yf you can shewe me that this churche of Rome wherof you are membres is the true chatolik churche I shal be content to be one therof And as conformable to the same as you can require me in all thīges For I knowe ther is no saluacion but within the churche Couentre Can you disproue that the churche of Rome is not the catholike churche phil Yea that I am hable but I desire rather to heare of you for the profe therof And seyng I can not haue my request at your handes neyther be satisfied with any probable auctoritie I wil shewe yowe good profe why it is not the catholike churche as it was in deade and owght to be the forme and scolemaistres of the churche to the worldes ende than is not the churche of Rome nowe the catholike churche which dissenteth so farre from the same bothe in doctrine and vse of the sacramentes Couentre Howe proue you that the churche of Rome nowe dissenteth in doctrine and vse of the sacramentes from the primatiue church Phil. Compare the one with the other yt wil sone appeare as you maye see both in Eusebius and in other Ecclesiasticall and auncient writers Couentre What haue you to saye more why it is not the catholike churche Phil. Because it is not by your owne interpretacion of the catholike vniuersall neyther neuer was albeyt you falsely persuade the people that it is soo For the world being diuided in three partes Asia Affrica Europa twoo parts therof Asia and Affrica professīg Christ as well as we did neuer consēt to the church of Rome which is of Europa which is a sufficient testimonie that your faith was neuer vniuersall Couentre How proue you that Phil. All the historiographers which write of the procedinges of the churche do testifie the same Besides that this present tyme doth declare that to be true which I saye For at this present the churche of Asia and Affrica do not consent to the churche of Rome Yea and besides al this the most part of Europa doth not agre neyther alowe the churche of Rome As Germanie the kingdome of Denmarcke the kingdome of Poole a great part of Fraūce England and Zealande which is a manifest probacion that your churche is not vniuersall And after this the bishop of London called awaye the other bishops left with me diuers gentlemen with certayne of his chaplaynes as doctor Sauerson an englisheman which had proceded doctor in Bonnony who after began with me in this maner D. sauer Master Philpot I remembre you beyonde the sea synce the tyme you reasoned with a fryer a notable learned man comming from Venece to Padua in a barge Phil. I can not forgett that for the fryer thretned me to accuse me of heresye as sone as he cam to Padua for that I talked with him so boldly of the truth He was no suche learned man as you name hym to be but onlye in his scoole poynts a good purgatorie frier D. sauer Well he was a learned man for all that And I am sorye to heare that you this daye hauing communed with so many notable learned men are no more conformable to them than you be Phil. I wil be conformable to all them that be conformable to Christ in his worde And I praye you good master Doctor be not soo cōformable to please men more than God contrarie to your learnīg for worldly estimaciōs sake D. sauer No that I am not vpon what occasiō should you thinke thus of me Phil. Vpō no euil that I do knowe of you master doctor but I speake as one wishing that you should not be led away frō the truthe for promocions sake as many doctors doo nowe a dayes D. sauer I haue heard your argumētacions hitherto me thinketh that a great many of the olde auncient writers be agaynst you in that you do not alowe the churche of Rome neyther the supremacie For S. Cipriane which is an olde aunciēt writer doth allowe the bishop of Rome to be the supreme head of the churche Phil. That I am sure of he doth not For he writing vnto Cornelius then bishop of Rome calleth hym but his cōpanyon and felowe bishop neither attributed to hym the name eyther of Pope or elles of any other vsurped termes which now be ascribed to the bishop of Rome to the setting forth of his dignitie Sauer You can not be hable to shewe that S. Ciprian calleth Cornelius his felow bishop Phil. I wil wager with you that I am hable to make that I can shewe it you in Ciprian as I haue sayd Sauer I wil lay non other wager with you but booke for booke it is not so Phil. I agre therto and I pray you one of my lordes chaplaynes to set vs Cipriane hyther for the triall herof And with that one of thē went to my lordes studie brought furth Cipriā And by by he turned to the fyrst booke of his epistles the .4 epistle and there woulde haue semed to haue gathered a strong
Ye as that I am London Your godfathers and godmothers were of an other fayth then you be nowe Phil. I was not baptised neither into my godfathers faith nor my godmothers but into the fayth into the churche of Christ London Howe knowe you that Phil. By the worde of God which is the touche stone of faythe and the lymites of the churche London Howe long hath your churche stande I praye you Phil. Euen from the beginning froÌ„ Christ from his Apostles from theyr immediate successours Chanc. He wil proue his churche to be before Christ phil Yf I dyd so I go not amisse For ther was a church before the coÌ„ming of Christ which maketh one catholike churche Chance It is so in dede phil I wil desyre no better rule theÌ„ that which is ofteÌ„ tymes brought in of your syde to proue both my fayth and church catholike that is antiquitie vniuersalitie and vnitie Lond. Do you not se what a bragging folyshe felowe this is He would seme to be very wel sene in the doctors he is but a fole By what D. art thou able to ê“ue thy church name hiÌ„ thou shalt haue him phil My lorde let me haue al your auncient writers with penne ynke paper I wil proue both my fayth my churche out of euery one of them Lon. No that thou shalt not haue â–ª you shal see howe he lyeth S. CipriaÌ„ sayeth Ye lye my lorde ther must be one high priest to the which the residue must obeye And they wil allowe no head neither vicar general phil S. Ciprian sayeth not that ther should be a vicar general ouer al. For in his boke De simplicitate praelatorum I am sure he sayeth the coÌ„trarie Vnus episcopatus est cuius pars in solidum a singulis tenetur Ther is but one bishoprike which is holly possessed of euery bishop in part London Fet hyther the boke thou shalt se the manyfest place against the. S. Chedsey brought the boke turned to the place in an Epistle written vnto Cornelius then B. of Rome recited these worldes in suÌ„me that it went not well with the church where the hyghe priest was not obeyed And so would haue coÌ„cluded for the confirmacion of the bishops sayeng Phil. M. doct you misconstrue the place of S. CipriaÌ„ for he meaneth not ther by the hygh priest the B. of Rome but euery patriark in his precinct of whom ther were foure apointed in his tyme. And in wrytyng vnto Cornelius he meaneth by the hyghe priest hym selfe which was then chief B. of Affrica whose auctoritie the heretikes began to despice Wherof he complayneth to Cornelius sayeth the churche can not be well ordered where the chief minister by order after the iudgemeÌ„t of the scriptures after the agremeÌ„t of the people and the coÌ„sent of his felow bishops he is not obeyed London Hath not the bishop of Rome alwayes ben supreme head of the churche and Christes vicar in earth euen from Peter Phil. No that he was not For by the word of God he hath no more auctoritie then the bishop of London hath Lon. Was not Peter head of the church and hath not the bishop of Rome which is his successour the same auctoritie Phil. I graunt that the bishop of Rome as he is the successor of Peter hath the same autoritie as Peter had But Peter had no more auctoritie then euery one of the apostles hadde Chaunce Yes that S. Peter had for Christ said specially vnto him Tibi dabo claues regni Coelorum I will gyue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen the which he spake to none other of his disciples syngularly but to him phil S. Austyne answereth otherwyse to the obiection sayeth that yf in Peter there had not bene the figure of the churche the Lord had not sayd vnto him to the I will geue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen The which if Peter receyued them not the churche hath them not Yf the churche hath them theÌ„ Peter hath them not London What yf I can proue and shewe you out of the ciuill lawe that all Christendome ought to folowe the holy catholike churche of Rome as there is a speciall tytle therof De catholica fide Sancta Romana ecclesia phil That is nothing material seing the thinges of God be not subiecte to maÌ„s lawes And diuine maters must be ordered by the word of God not of man M. d ee What will you saye yf I can proue that Christ buylded his church vpon Peter and that out of S. Ciprian will you then beleue that the bishop of Rome ought to be supreme head of the churche Phil. I knowe what S. Ciprian writeth in that behalfe But he meaneth nothiÌ„g so as you take it M. d ee S. Ciprian hath these wordes quod super Petrum fundata suit ecclesia tanquam super originem vnitatis That vpon Peter was builded the churche as vpon the fyrst begynning of vnitie Phil. Be declareth that in an example the vnitie must be in the church he grouÌ„ded on Peter his churche alone not vpon men The which he doth more manifestly declare in the booke De simplicitate praelatorum sayeng in persona vnius Christus dedit Dominus omnibus claues vt omnium vtatateÌ„ denotaret In the person of one maÌ„ God gaue the keyes to al that he in significacioÌ„ therby declareth the vnitie of all men M. d ee Howe wil you vnderstand S. Ciprian So that were good in dede Phil. I thinke you can not vnderstande S. Ciprian better then he dothe declare him selfe London I will desire you master chauÌ„celer to take some paynes which master doctor Chadsey master Dee about his examinacion For I must god to the parliament house And I will desire you to tary diner with me phil Then maister Dee toke agayne his former auctoritie in hande for want of an other And would haue made a farther circumstaunce dysgressing from his purpose To whom I sayd he knewe not wherabout he went and here withall he laughed And I sayd his diuinitie was nothing but scoffing M. d ee Yea then I haue done with you And so went awaye phil maister Dee you are to yong in dyuynytie to reach me in the maters of my faythe though you be learned in other thinges more then I yet in diuinitie I haue ben longer pracrysed then you for any thing I can heare of you therfore be not to hastie to iudge that you do not perfectly knowe Chaun Peter and his successours froÌ„ the beginning haue ben allowed for the supreme head of the churche that by the scriptures For that cause Christ said vnto him in S. Iohn thryse feade my shepe pasce oues meas Phil. That is none otherwise to be takeÌ„ theÌ„ Ite predicate goo ye preache which was spoken to al the Apostels as wel as vnto Peter And the Christ said thrise pasce oues meas feade my shepe it signifieth nothing
elles but the earnest studie that the ministers of God ought to haue in preaching the worde God graunt that you of the cleargy would waie your duetie in this behalfe more then you doo Is this a iuste interpretaciō of the scripture to take pasce oues meas for to be lorde of the hole world In this meane while came in an other bacheler of diuinitie which is a reader of Greke in Oxforde belonging to the bishop And he toke vpon him to helpe master chaunceler Scoler What will you say yf I can shewe you a Greke Autor called Theophilacte to interprete it so Will you beleue his interpretacion Phil. Theophilacte is a late wryter and one that was a fauourer of the bishop of Rome and therfore not to be credited synce his interpretacion is cōtrary to the manifest words of the scriptures and contrarie to the determinacion of many general councels Scolar In what generall coūcel was it otherwyse that the bishop of Rome was not supreme head ouer al. Phil. In Nyce counsel I am sure it was otherwyse For Athanasius was there the chief B. and president of the councel and not the bishop of Rome Scolar Nay that is not so phil Then I perceyue you are better sene in wordes then in knowlege of thinges For I wil gage with you what you will it is so As you maye see in the Epitome of the councell Scoler I wil set Eusebius and shewe the contrarie and the boke of general coūcels He went into my lordes closet and brought Eusebius but the general councels he brought not sayeng for sauyng of his honestie that he could not come by them And there woulde haue defended that it was otherwyse in Eusebius but was not hable to shewe the same And so shranke away cōfounded Chan. The church of Rome hath ben alwayes takē for the hole catholike churche therfore I would aduise you to come into the same with vs. You se al the men of this realme do condemne you And why wil you be so singular Phil. I haue sayd and stil do saye that yf you can be hable to proue it vnto me that I wil be of the some But I am sure that the church which you make so much of Note is a false churche and a Synagoge of Satan And you with the learned mē of this realme do persecute the true churche and condempne suche as be ryghteouser then you Chaun Nay the Deuylles daughter Do you heare maister doctor what he sayeth that the churche of Rome is the deuil Chadsey I wishe you did thinke more reuerently of the churche of Rome ▪ What wil you saye yf I can showe you out of S. Austyne in his epistle writtē to Pope Innocentius that the hole generall coūcel of Cartage dyd allowe the churche of Rome to be chefest ouer al other Phil. I am sure you may shewe no suche thyng And with ther he set the boke of S. Austyne and turned to the epistle but he could not proue his allegacion manyfestly Thou falsifiest S. Austyne Chadsey but by coniectures in this wyse Chadsey Here you maye see that the coūcell of Cartage wrytyng to Innocentius the Bishop calleth the sea of Rome the Apostolike sea And besydes this they wryte vnto him certifyeng him of thinges done in the councel for the condemnacion of the Donatistes requiring his approbations in the same Which they would not haue done yf they had not taken the church of Rome for the supreme heade of others And moreouer you maye see howe S. Austyne dothe proue the churche of Rome to be the chatholike church The succession of false bishops and not of Christes faithe by continual successiō of the byshop vntil his tyme which successyon we can proue vntyl our dayes Therfore by the same reason of S. Austine we saye nowe that the churche of Rome is the catholike churche Phil. Maister doctor I haue considered howe you do waye S. Austyne And contrarye to his meanyng and wordes you would infer your false conclusion A false cōclusion indede As cōcerning that it was called by him the Apostolical sea that is not material to proue the churche of Rome nowe to be the catholike churche I wil graunt it now that it is the apostolike sea in respect that Paule and Peter dyd once there preache the Gospel and abode for a certayne season I would you could proue it to be the Apostolical sea of that true religion and synceritie as the Apostle lefte it and dyd teache the same The which yf ye can do you myght boast of Rome as of the Apostolical sea Otherwyse it is now of no more force then yf the Turke at Antioche and at Ierusalem should boast of the Apostolike seas bycause the Apostles once dyd there abyde and founded the churche of Christ And where as by that the hole coūcel of Carthage dyd wryte vnto Pope Innocētius certifieng him of that was done in the generall counsell and willyng him to set his helping hande to the suppressing of the Donatistes as they had done That facte of the councel proueth nothyng the supremacie of the bishop of Rome no more then yf the hole conuocacion house nowe gathered together and agreyng vpō certaine articles myght sende the same to some Bishop that vpon certaine impedimentes is not present willyng him to agree therto and to set them forth in his dioces The whiche facte doth not make any suche bishop of greater auctoritie then the reste bycause his consente is brotherly required And touching the successiō of the bishoppes of Rome brought in by saynt Austine maketh nothyng nowe therby to proue the same the catholike churche onles you can conclude with the same reason as S. Austyne dothe And the rehersall of the succession of the bishops doth tende to this only to proue the donatistes to be heretykes because they beganne aswel at Rome as in Affrica to foūde an other churche then was groūded by Peter and Paule and by their successours whom he reciteth vntil his tyme which all taught no such doctrine neyther no suche church as the Donatistes And yf presently you be hable to proue by the succession of bishops of Rome wherof you do glory that no suche doctrine hathe ben taught by any of the successours of Peters sea as is nowe taught and beleued of vs you haue good reason Agaynst vs. Otherwise it is of no force as I am hable to declare Chaun Well master doctor you se we can do no good in persuadīg of him let vs mynyster the articles which my lord hath left vs vnto him Howe faye you master Philpot to these articles M. Iohnson I pray you write his answeres phil Master chaunceler you haue no autorytye to enquire of me my belefe in such articles as you go about for that I am not of my lorde of Londōs diocese to be brefe with you I will make no further answere herin then I haue already to the bishop Chaun Why then let vs go our
abstractes of the scriptures and doctors Phil. What so euer you do make them they are no ground of my fayth by the which I ought to be Iudged London I must nedes procede against the to morowe Phil. Yf your lordship so do I wil haue Excepcionem fori for you are not my competent iudge London By what lawe canst thou refuse me to be thy iudge Phil. By the Ciuile lawe De coÌ„petente Iudice London There is no suche tytle in the lawe In what boke is it as connyng a lawer as you be Phil. My lorde I take vpoÌ„ me no great connyng in the lawe but you dryue me to my shyftes for my defence And I am sure yf I had the bokes of the lawe I were able to shewe what I saye London What De competente Iudice I wil go fet thee my bokes There is a tytle in dede De officijs Iudicis ordinarij phil Verely that is the same Competente Iudice which I haue alleged With that he ranne to his studye end brought the hole course of the lawe betwene his haÌ„des which as it myght appeare he had wel occupied by the dust they were enbrued withal London There be the bokes fynde it out yf thou canst and I wyl promyse thee to release thee out of pryson phil My lorde I staÌ„de not here to reason maters of the Ciuile lawe althoughe I am not altogher ignoraunt of the same for that I haue ben a student in the same sixe or seuen yeres but to answere to the articles of fayth with the which you maye lawfully burthen me And where as you go about vnlawfully to procede I chalenge according to my knowlege the benefyte of the lawe in my defence London Why thou wilt answere directly to nothyng thou art charged with al. Therfore saye not herafter but you myght haue ben satisfyed here by learned men yf you would haue declared your mynde phil My lorde I haue declared my mynde vnto you and to other of the bysshops at my last beyng before you desyring you to be satisfied but of one thing wherunto I haue referred al other controuersies the which yf your lordships nowe or other learned men can symply resolue me of I am as contented to be reformable in al thinges as you shal require the whych is to proue that the churche of Rome wherof you are is the catholyke churche Couentrie Why do you not beleue your Crede Credo ecclesiam catholicam phil Yes that I do but I can not vnderstande Rome wherwith al you now burden vs to be the same neither lyke to it S. Asse It is most euident that S. Peter dyd buylde the catholyke churche at Rome And Christ sayd Tites Petrus super hanc petrant edificabo ecclesiam meam Moreouer the succession of byshops in the sea of Rome can be proued from tyme to tyme as it caÌ„ be of none other place so wel which is a manifest probacion of the catholike church as dyuerse doctours do wryte Phil. That you would haue to be vndoubted is moste vncertaine and that by the autoritie which you allege of Christ sayeng vnto Peter Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke I wyll buylde my churche Marcke wel onles you caÌ„ proue the rock to signifye Rome as you would make me falsly beleue And although you can proue the succession of bishops from Peter yet this is not sufficieÌ„t to proue Rome to be the catholike church onles you can proue the successioÌ„ of Peters fayth whervpon the catholyke church is buylded to haue coÌ„tinued in his successours at Rome at this present to remayne London Is ther any mo churches theÌ„ one catholike churche and I pray you tel me into what fayth were you baptized Phil. I acknowledge one holye catholyke and Apostolyck churche wherof I am a membre I prayse God I am of that catholike fayth of Christ wherinto I was baptised Couentre I praye you can you tel what this worde catholyke doth signifie shewe yf you can Phil. Yes that I can I thanke God The catholyke faythe or the catholyke churche is not as nowe a dayes the people be taught to be that which is moste vniuersal or of moste part of men receyued wherby you do inferre our fayth to hang vpon the multitude which is not so But I esteme the catholyke fayth and the catholike churche to be as S. Austen defineth the same Estimamus fidem catholicam a rebus praeteritis praesentibus futuris We iudge sayth he the catholike fayth of that which hath ben is and shal be So that yf you can be hable to proue that your fayth and churche hath ben from the beginning taught and is and shal be then maye you count your selues catholikes otherwyse not And catholike is a Greke worde compounded of cata which signifieth after or according and holon a sumÌ„ or principle or hole So that catholike church or catholike fayth is as muche to saye the fyrst hole souÌ„de or chiefest fayth London Doth S. Austen saye so as he alledgeth it or dothe he meane thus as he taketh the same howe saye you maister Curtoppe Curtop In dede my lorde S. Austen hath suche a sayeng speaking against the Donatistes that the catholike faythe ought to be estemed of thinges in tymes past and as they are practised according to the same And ought to be through al ages not after a new maner as the Donatistes begaÌ„ to ê“fesse phil You haue sayd wel M. Currop after the meaning of S. Austen And do coÌ„firme that which I haue sayd for the significacion of catholike Couentre Let the boke be sene my lord London I praye you my lorde be content or in good fayth I will breake euen of let all alone Do you thinke the catholyke church vntil it was with in these fewe yeres in the which a few vpon singularitie haue swarued from the same hath erred phil I do not thynke that the catholike churche can erre in doctrine but I require to proue the churche of Rome to be thys catholike churche Curtop I can proue that Ireneus which was within an hundreth yeares after Christ came to Victor then bishop of Rome wisely Curtop to aske his aduise about the excommunicatioÌ„ of certayne heretikes the which he would not haue done by al lykelyhode yf he had not taken him to be supreme head Couentre Marke wel this argument Howe are you able to answere to the same Answere yf you can phil It is sone answered my lorde for that it is of no force neither this facte of Ireneus proueth nomore for the supremacie of the bishop of Rome theÌ„ myne hath done which haue ben at Rome as wel as he and myght haue spoken with the Pope yf I had list and yet I would none in Englande dyd fauour his supremacie more then I. S. Asse You are the more to blame by my fayth of my bodye for that you fauour the same no better Your othe is as great as if a
argument for the supremacie of the bisshop of Rome because he sayeth it goeth not wel with the churche wheÌ„ the hygh priest is not obeyed which supplieth the â—â—ede of Christ after Goddes worde and the consent of his felow bishoppes and the agrement of the people Sauer Howe can you auoyd this place which maketh so playnly for the B. of Rome his supremacie phil It maketh not so playne M. doctour on your sede as you gather as by and by I wyl gyue you to vnderstande But fyrst I chalenge the wager whiche we made that your boke is myne For here you may see that he calleth Cornelius his felowbishop as he dothe also in other places And nowe for the vnderstanding of that place you do misconstrue it to make the hyghe priest only for the B. of Rome and otherwyse then it was in his tyme. For ther were by Nicene couÌ„sel foure Patriarkes appointed The Patriarke of Hierusalem the Patriarke of Constantinopole the Patriarke of Alexandria and the Patriarke of Rome of which foure the Patriarke of Rome was placed lowest in the couÌ„sel and so continued many hundreth yeres for that tyme of .vij. or .viij. general councelles as I am hable to shewe Therfore s CipriaÌ„ wryting to Cornelius Patriarke of Rome whom he calleth his felowe bishop fyndeth him selfe offended that certaine heretikes beyng iustly excoÌ„municated as the NouaciaÌ„s were by him dyd flee from his diocese which was theyr chefe bishop refusing to be obedient vnto him and to be reformed as to the bishop of Rome or to the Patriarke of Constantinopole And there were receyued in communion of congregacion in derogacion of good ordre and discipline in the churche and to the maintayning of heresies and scismes And that heresies did spring vp and scismes daylye aryse herof that obedience is not geuen to the priest of God nor once consydered to be in the churche for the tyme the priest and for the tyme the Iudge in Christes steade as in the decre of Nicene couÌ„sel was apointed not meaning the B. of Rome only but euery Patriarke in his precinct Who had euery one of them a college or cathedrall churche of learned priestes in hearing of whom by a conuocacion of all his felowes bisshoppes with the consent of the people al heresies were determined by the word of God And this is the meanyng of s Cyprian Sauer You take it so but it semeth to me otherwyse phil Vpon what ground it should seme otherwise vnto you I knowe not but this meaning which I haue declared the general counsels .vij. or .viij. one after an other confirmed it so to be whiche did not alowe one supreme head onlye pen. Ther were not so many generall councelles but foure only alowed phil That is not so M. Pendleton Although ther be foure specially alowed for the confirmacion of the Trinitie but beside these foure ther were many other general councelles as you maye learne by many wryters Achaplayn Did not Christ buylde his churche vpon Peter S. Cyprian sayeth so phil S. Cyprian De simplicitate prelatorum declareth in what respect he so sayd In persona vnius he is Dedit Dominus omnibus claues vt omnium vnitatem denunciaret God gaue in persone of one man to all the keyes that he myght signifye the vnitie of all men And also S. Austen sayeth in the .10 homelie of saint IohnÌ„ Si in Petro non esset ecclesiae misterium noÌ„ ci diceret Dominus tibi dabo claues si autem hoc Petro dictum est non habet ecclesia si autem ecclesia habet quando claues accepit ecclesiam totam designauit Yf in Peter had not ben the mysterie of the churche the lorde had not said vnto hym I will geue vnto thee the keyes Fo yf that were sayd vnto Peter the churche hath them not yf the churche haue them when Peter receyued them he signifyeth the hole church As also s Hierome a priest of Rome wrytyng to Nepotian sayeth that al churches do leane to their owne pastors where he speaketh of the Ecclesiastical hierarchie or regiment where he maketh no mencion of the bishop of Rome And ad Euagium he sayeth that where so euer a bisshop be whether it be at Rome or at Euagie or at RegiuÌ„ he is of one power and of one iurisdiccion Sauer S. Hierom De celesti hierarchia It was Dionisius you meane Phil. I say not that Hierom wrote any boke so entytled but I saye that in the epistle by me alledged he maketh mencion of the ecclesiastical regiment Sauer I woÌ„der you wil stand so stedfast in your errour to your owne destructioÌ„ phil I am sure we are in no errour by the promise of Christ made to the faythful on s which is that he wil gyue to his true churche suche a spirit of wisdome that the aduersaries therof should neuer be hable to resist And by this I know we are of the truth for that neyther by reasonyng neyther by writing your synagog of Rome is hable to answere Wher is ther one of you all that euer hath ben able to answere any of the godly learned ministers of Germanie who haue disclosed your couÌ„terfaict religion Which of you all at this daye is hable to answere Caluynes institucion which is minister of Geneua Sauer A goodlye minister in deade of receyt of cuspurses ruÌ„nagates traytours And of late I can tel you there is suche contention fallen betwene hym and his owne sects that he was fayne to flee the towne about predestinacion I tell you truth for I cam by Geneua hyther Phil. I am sure you blaspheme that godly man and that godlye churche where he ys minister as it is your churches condicion when you can not answer meÌ„ by learnyng to oppresse theÌ„ with blasphemies and false reports For in the mater of predestinacion he is in non other opinion theÌ„ all the doctors of the churche be agreyng to the scriptures Sauer Men be hable to answer hym yf they lust And I praye you which of you haue answered bishope Fysshers boke phil Yes master Doctor that booke is answered and answered agayne yf you lyst to seeke what hath ben written agaynst hym And after this Doctor storie came in to whom I sayd master doctor you haue done me greate iniurie without lawe haue straytlye imprisoned me more lyke a dogge then a man And besides thys you haue not kept promise with me For you promised that I shuld be Iudged the next day after Storie I am come nowe to kepe promise with yt. Was ther euer suche a faÌ„tasticall man as this ys Nay he ys no man he ys a beaste Yea those heretikes be worse then brute beastes for they will vpon a vayne singularitie take vpon them to be wyser theÌ„ all men being in dede veray fooles and asseheades not hable to mayntayne that which of an arrogaunt obstinacie they do stande in Phil. Master Doctor I am content to abyde your rayling Iudgement of me nowe saye what you will
your yeares great exercyse do excell therin but fayth coÌ„systeth not only in learning but in simplicytie of beleuing that which Godes word teacheth therfore I wil be glad to heare bothe of your lordship or of any other that god hath reuealed vnto by his worde the true doctrine therof thanke you that it dothe please you to take paynes herein Chiche You take the first alleged amisse as though al meÌ„ should be taught by inspiration not by learnyng Howe do we beleue the Gospel but by the authoritie of the church and because the same hath allowed it Phil. S. Paule sayeth he learned not the Gospel by men neyther of men but by the reuelatioÌ„ of Iesus Christ which is a sufficieÌ„t profe that the gospel taketh not his authoritie of maÌ„ but of God only Chichest S. Paule speaketh but of his owne knowlage how he came therto Phil. Naye he speaketh of the Gospel generally which coÌ„meth not from maÌ„ but from God that the churche must only teache that which coÌ„meth froÌ„ God and not mans preceptes Chiches Doth not S. Austine saye I would not beleue the Gospel yf the authoritie of the churche dyd not moue me therto phil I grauÌ„t that the authoritie of the churche dothe moue the vnbeleuers to beleue but yet the churche geueth not the worde his authoritie for the worde hath his authoritie only froÌ„ God not of man Men be but disposers therof for fyrst the worde hath his beyng before the churche and the worde is the foundacion of the churche and first is the foundacion sure before the buyldyng theron can be stedfast Chiches I perceaue you mistake me I speake of the knowlage of the Gospell and not of the authoritie for by the churche we haue all knowlage of the Gospel phil I confesse that For fayth cometh by hearyng and hearyng by the worde and I acknowlage that God appointeth an ordinary meanes for meÌ„ to come vnto knowlage nowe and not miraculously as he hath done in tymes paste yet we that be taught by men must take hede that we learne nothing else but that which was taught in the primatiue churche by reuelation Here came in the B. of Yorke and the bishop of Bathe and after they had saluted one an other and commoned a whyle together the Archbishop of Yorke called me vnto them sayeng Yorke Syr we hearyng that you are out of the waye are come of charitie to enforme you and to bring you into the true fayth to the catholike churche agayne willyng you first to haue humilitie and to be humble and willyng to learne of your betters for else we can do no good wyth you and God sayeth by the Prophete On whome shall I reste but on the humble and meke and suche as tremble at my worde Nowe yf you will so be we wil be glad to trauail with you phil I know that humilitie is the dore wherby we enter vnto Christ I thaÌ„ke his goodnes I haue entred in at the same vnto him wil with al humilitie heare whatsoeuer truth you shal speake vnto me Yorke What be the maters you staÌ„de on and require to be satisfyed Phil. My lorde and it please your grace we were entred in a good mater before you came of the churche and howe we should knowe the truth but by the churche Yorke In dede that is the heade we nede to beginne at for the churche beyng truly knoweÌ„ we shal soner agre in the particular thynges phil Yf your lordships can proue the churche of Rome to be the true catholike churche it shall do muche to persuade me towarde that you would haue me inclyne vnto Yorke Why let vs go to the definition of the churche what is it phil It is a coÌ„gregation of people dispersed through the worlde agreyng together in the worde of God vsyng the sacramentes and al other thinges accordyng to the same Yorke This diffinitioÌ„ is of many wordes to no purpose Phil. I do not precisely diffyne the churche but declare vnto you what I thinke the church is Yorke Is the church visible or inuisible Phil. It is bothe visible and inuisible the inuisible church is of all the electes of God only the visible consisteth of bothe good and bad vsing all thinges in fayth according to Goddes word Yorke The churche is an vniuersal coÌ„gregacioÌ„ of faythful people in Christ through the worlde which this word catholik doth wel expresse for what is catholike elles doth it not signifie vniuersal Phil. The churche is diffined by S. Austen to be called catholike in this wyse Ecclesia ideo dicitur catholica quia vniuersaliter perfecta est in nullo claudicat The church is called therfore catholike bicause it is throughly perfyt and halteth in nothing Yorke Nay it is called catholyke bycause it is vniuersally receyued of all Chrystian nations for the most parte Phil. The churche was catholike in the Apostles tyme yet was it not vniuersally receyued of the world but bicause their doctrine which they had receyued of Christ was perfect and appointed to be preached and receaued of the hole world therfore it is caled the catholike fayth all persons receyuing the same be to be counted the catholike churche And S. Austine in an other place writeth ad Neophitos that the catholike church is the which beleueth a right Yorke Yf you will learne I wil shewe you by S. Austine writing against the Donatistes that he proueth the catholike churche by two principall pointes which is vniuersalitie and successioÌ„ of bishops in one apostolycal sea from tyme to tyme. Nowe thus wil I make myn argumeÌ„t The churche of Rome is vniuersal hath had his succession of bishops from tyme tyme Ergo it is the catholike churche howe answere you to this argumeÌ„t phil I deny the antecedent That the catholike churche is only knowen by vniuersalitie by succession of bishops Yorke I wil proue it And with that he brought furthe a boke which he had noted out of the doctors and turned to his commoÌ„ places therin of the churche recyted one or two out of S Austen specially out of his epistle written against the Donatistes Here S. Austen manifestly proueth that the Donatistes were not the catholike churche bicause they had no succession of bishops in their opinion neyther vniuersalitie and the same force hath S. Austins argument against you phil My lord I haue wayed the force of that argument before nowe And I perceiue it maketh nothing against me nether it commeth to your purpose for I will stand to the tryall of S. Austen for the apê“bacion of the catholike churche where of I am For S. Austine speaketh of vniuersalitie ioyned with veritie of faythful successours of Peter before corruption came into the churche and so yf you can deduce your argumeÌ„t for the sea of Rome now as S. Austen might do in his tyme I would say it might be of some force otherwise not Yorke S. Austine proueth the catholike churche
principally by succession of bishops and therfore you vnderstaÌ„de not S. Austine for what I pray you was the opinion of the Donatistes against whom he wrote can you tell what contrey were they of phil They were a certen secte of men affirming among other heresies that the dignitie of the sacramentes depended vpon the worthynes of the minister so that if the minister were good the sacrament which he ministred were auayliable or els not Chiches That was their errour and they had none other but that And he red an other authoritie of S. Austins out of a boke which he brought euen to the same purpose that the other was Phil. I chalenge S. Austine to be with me throughly in this poynte and wil stand to his iudgement takyng one place with an other Chiches If you wil not haue the church to be certen I praye you by whom wil you be iudged in maters of controuersy Phil. I do not deny the churche to be certen but I deny that it is necessarily tyed to any place longer then it abideth in the word and for all maner of controuersies the word ought to be iudge Chichest But what yf I take it one way and you an other howe than Phil. S. Austen sheweth a remedy for that willeth quod vnius locus per plura intelligi debeat that one place of the scripture ought to be vnderstanded by the mo Yorke How answere you to this argument Rome hath a knowen successioÌ„ of bishops which your churche hath not Ergo that is the catholik churche and yours is not bicause ther is no suche successioÌ„ can be proued for your churche phil I deny my lord that succession of bishops is an infallible point to knowe the churche by for there may be a succession of bishops knowen in a place and yet there be no churche as at Antioche and at Ierusalem and in other places wher the Apostles abode aswell as at Rome But if you put to the succession of bishops succession of doctrine with all as S. Austine doth I will graunt it to be a good profe for the catholike churche but a locall succession only is nothing vayleable Yorke You will haue no churche then I se well phil Yes my lord I acknowledge the catholik churche as I am bound by my Crede but I can not acknowledge a false church for the true Chichest Why is ther twoo catholike churches then philpot No I knowe ther is but one catholike churche but there haue ben and be at this present that take vpon theÌ„ the name of Christ of his church which be not so in dede as it is writteÌ„ that there be that call them selues APostles and be not so in dede but the sinagoge of Sathan and lyers And nowe it is with vs as it was with the two women in SalomoÌ„s tyme which lay to gether and the one suppressed her child and after went about to chalenge the true mothers childe Chiches What a babling here is with you nowe I se you lacke humilitie you wil go about to teach and not to learne philpot My lords I must desire you to beare with my hastie speche it is my infirmitie of nature all that I speake is to learne by I would you did vnderstand all my mind that I might be satisfied by you through better authoritie Chichest My lord and it please your grace turne the argument vpon him which you haue made and let him shewe the succession of bishops of his church as we can do How say you can you shewe the succession of bishops in your churche from tyme to tyme I tell you this argument troubled doctor Ridley so sore that he could neuer answere it Yet he was a man well learned I dar say you will say phil He was a man so learned that I was not worthy to cary his bookes for learning Chichest I promise you he was neuer hable to answere that he was a man that I loued well and he me For he came vnto me diuers tymes being in prison and conferred with me philpot I wonder my lord you should make this argument which you would turne vpon me for the tryal of my churche wherof I am or that you would make bishop Rydley so ignoraunt that he was not hable to answere it since it is of no force For behold fyrst I denyed you that locall succession of bishops in one place is no necessary point alone to proue the catholike churche by that which I haue denyed you can not proue and is it then reason that you should put me to the tryall of that which by you is vnproued and of no force to conclude against me Chichest I se my lords we do but lose our labours to reason with him he taketh him selfe better learned than we phil I take vpon me the name of no learning I bost of no knowledge but of faith and of Christ and that I am bouÌ„d vndoubtedly to know as I am sure I doo Chichest These heretikes take vpon theÌ„ to be sure of all thinges they stand in you should say rather with humilitie I trust I knowe Christ than that you be sure therof phil Let him doubt of his faith that lysteth God gyue me alwayes grace to beleue that I am sure of his faith and fauoure in Christ Bathe Howe will you be hable to answere heretiks but by the determinatioÌ„ of the knowen catholike churche Phil. I am hable to answere al heretikes by the worde of God and coÌ„uince them by the same Chichest Howe arrogantly that is spoken I dare not say so Phil. My lord I pray you beare with me for I am bold in the truth syde and I speake some what by experience that I haue had with heretykes and I knowe the Arrians be the subtilest that euer were and yet haue I manifest scriptures to beat them downe with all Chiches I perceaue nowe you are the same maner of man I haue heard of which will not be satisfied by learning Phil. Alas my lord why do you say so I do desire most humbly to be taught if ther be any better way that I should learne and hitherto you haue shewed me no better Therfore I pray your lord ship not to misiudge without a cause Baâ—he If you be the true catholike churche than will you hold with the reall presence of Christ in the sacrament which the true churche hath euer mayntayned phil And I my lord with the true churche do holde the same in the dewe ministracion of the sacrameÌ„t but I desire you my lord ther may be made a better conclusion in our first mater before we entre in to any other for if the churche be proued we shall sone agre in the rest In this meane while my lord of Yorke was turning his boke for mo places to helpe forthe his cause Yorke I haue found at lenthe a very notable place which I haue loked for all this while of S. Austine de simpliciate credendi Chichest It is but folly
my lord that your grace do reade him any mo places for he estemeth them not Phil. I esteme thē in as muche as they be of force as your lordship dothe heare me deny no doctors you bring but require the true applicacion of them according to the writers meaning as by his owne wordes I do proue Yorke I wil reade him the place and so make an ende After he had red the sentence he said that by fowre speciall pointes here S. Austine proueth the catholike church The first is by the consēt of al nations the secōd by the Apostolike sea the thryd by vniuersalitie the fourthe by this word catholike Chichest That is a notable place in dede and please your grace philpot I pray you my lord of what church doth S. Austine write the same of Rome or not ▪ Yorke Yea he writeth it of the churche of Rome philpot I wil lay with your lordship as muche as I can make it is not so And let the boke be sene Bathe What arte thou hable to laye that hast nothing Yorke Dothe he not make mention here of the Apostolike sea wherby he meaneth Rome Phil. That is very straytly interpreted my lorde as though the Apostolike sea had ben no where els but at Rome But let it be Rome and yet shal you neuer verifye the same onles all the other cōdicions do go ther with as S. Austine dothe procede withall wherof none except the Apostolike sea can nowe be verifyed of the churche of Rome For the faythe which that sea nowe maintayneth hath not the consent of all nations nether euer had besydes that it can not haue the name of catholyke bycause it diffreth from the catholike churches which the Apostles planted almost in all thinges Yorke Naye he goeth about here to proue the catholike churche by vniuersalitie And howe can you shewe your churche to be vniuersall fyftye or an hundred yeres ago phil That is not material neither any thing against S. Austyne For my churche wherof I am were to be counted vniuersall though it were but in .x. persons bicause it agreeth with the same that the Apostles vniuersally did plāte Yorke I perceyue you are an obstinate man in your opinion and will not be taught Wherfore it is but lost labore to talke with you any lenger you are a member to be cut of Chichest I haue heard of you before howe you troubled the good bishop of Winchester before and nowe I see in you that I haue heard Phil. I trust you see no euill in me by this I desire of you a sure ground to build my fayth on and if you shewe me none I pray you speake not yll of him that meaneth well Chichest Thou arte an impudent felow as I haue commoned with all Phil. That is spokē vncharytably my lord to blaspheme him whom you can not iustly reproue Chichest Why you are not God blasphemy is counted a rebuke to God-ward and not to man phil Yes it may be aswel verified of an infamy layed to man speaking in Goddes cause as you nowe do laye vnto me for speaking frely the truthe afore God to mayntayne your vayne religion you are voyde of all good grounde I perceyue you are blinde guydes and leaders of the blind and therfore as I am bound to tel you verye hypocrites tyrānously persecuting the truthe which otherwise by iust order you are hable to do by no meanes Your owne doctors and testimonyes which you bring be euidentlye against you and yet you wil not see the truthe Chichest Haue we this thanke for our good will comming to instructe thee phil My lordes you must beare with me synce I speake in Christes cause and bicause his glory is defaced and his people cruelly and wrongfully slain by you bicause they will not consent to the dishonour of God to hypocrisie with you Yf I told you not your fault it should be required at my handes in the day of iudgement therfore knowe you ye hipocrites in dede that it is the spirite of God that telleth you your synne and not I. I passe not I thanke God of al your crueltie God forgeue it you and gyue you grace to repent And so they departed The same day at night before supper the bishop sent for me into his chappel in the presence of Archdeacon Harpesfild doctor Chadsey in the presence of other his Chaplayns and his seruauntes MAster Philpot I haue by sundry meanes gone about to do you good and I maruail you do so litle considre it By my truthe I can not tell what to say to you Tel me directly whether you wil be a conformable man or no and wher vpon you chifly stand Phil. I haue told your lordship often tymes playne ynough where on I stand chiefly requiring a sure probatiō of the churche wherunto you cal me Harpel S. Austine writing against the Donatistes declareth foure special notes to knowe the church by the cōsent of many nations the faith of the sacraments confirmed by antiquitie succession of bishops vniuersalitie London I pray you master Archdeacō fett the booke hither it is a notable place let him se it And the boke was brought and the bishop red it demaunding howe I could answere the same Phil. My lord I like S. Austins foure points for the tryal of the catholik churche wherof I am For it can abide euery point therof together which yours can not doo Harpes Haue not we succession of bishops in the sea and church of Rome wherfor then do you deny our churche to be the catholike churche Phil. S Austine doth not put succession of bishops only to be sufficient but he addeth the vse of the sacramentes according to antiquitie and doctrine vniuersally taught and receyued of most nations from the beginning of the primatiue church the which your churche is far from But my churche can auouche all these better then yours therfore by S. Austins iudgement which you here bring myne is the catholike churche and not yours Harpes Chad. It is but foly my lord for you to reason with him for he is irrecuperable Phil. That is a good shift for you to runne vnto when you be confounded in your owne sayenges and haue nothing els to say you are euidently deceyued and yet will not see it when it is layd to your face Here ende as many of Iohn̄ Philpots examinacions as came to the printors handes and assone as the rest may be come by thou shalt haue it good reader by the will of God In the meane tyme refreshe thy selfe with this praising God for the perseueraunce of this cōstaūt learned martir and praye hartly for the rest of Christes poore afflicted church Geue God the glorye Iesus is God with vs. An Apologie of Iohan Philpot written for spitting vpon an Arrian with an inuectiue against the Arrians the very natural chyldren of Antichrist with an admonition to all that be faythfull in Christ to beware of them and of other late sprong heresies as of
that mater but I am sure it wylbe layd against me to my preiudice when I come to iudgement Colle Why then you may speake by protestacion phil But what shal my protestacion auayle in a cause of heresie as you cal it yf I speake otherwyse thē you wil haue me synce that which I spake in the conuocacion house beyng a place priuiledged can not now helpe me London But M. D. Colle maye I not procede agaynst hym for that offence he hath done in my diocese Colle You may cal him before you my lorde yf he be founde in your diocese Phil. But I haue by force ben brought out of myne owne diocese to my lordes require to be iudged of myne owne ordinarie And therfore I knowe M. D. wil not say of his knowledge that your lordship ought to procede agaynst me And here M.D. would saye nothyng worcest Do you not thynke to fynd before my lorde here as good equitie in your cause as before your owne ordinarie Phil. I can not blame my lorde of Londons equitie with whom I thanke his lordship I haue founde more gentlenes synce I came then of myne owne ordinarie I speake it for no flatterie this twelue moneth and thys halfe before who neuer would cal me to answere as his lordship hath done nowe twyse Sed nemo prohibetur vti iure suo But I ought not to be forstalled of my right And therfore I chalenge the same for diuerse other consideracions Londō Now you can not say herafter but that ye haue ben gently cōmuned withall of my lordes here And yet you wylfull and obstinate in your errour and your owne opinions will not shewe any cause why you wil not come into the vnitie of the churche with vs. Phil. My lordes that I do not declare my mynde according to your expectacion is as I haue sayd because I can not speake without present daunger of my lyfe but rather then you should reporte me by this eyther obstinate or selfe willed without any iuste groūde whervpon I stande I wyl open vnto you somwhat of my mynde or rather the hole desyring your lordshippes which seme to be the pillers of the churche of Englande to satisfye me in the same And I wil referre al other causes in the which I dissent from you into one or two articles or rather to one which includeth them both in the which yf I can by the scriptures be satisfied at your mouthes I shall as willyngly agree to you as any other in al pointes London These heretikes com alwayes with their yffs as this mā doeth now sayng yf he cā be satisfied by the scriptures so that he will allwayes haue this exception I am not satisfied although the mater be neuer so playnly proued agaynst him No proofe but prailyng But wil you promise to be satisfied yf my lordes take summe paynes about you Phil. I saye my lorde I wil be satisfied by the scriptures in that I stande And I processe here before God his eternal sonne Iesus Christ my saueour and the holy gost hys angelles you here present that be Iudges of that I speake that I do not stand in any opinion of wilfulnes or singularitie but only vpon my conscience certaynly informed by Goddes worde from the which I dare not goo for feare of damnacion And this is the cause of myne earnestnes in this behalfe London I will trouble my lordes no longer seing that you wil not declare your mynd Phil. I am about so to do yf yt please your lordship to heare me speake Bath Gyue hym leaue my lorde to speake that he hath to saye Phil. My lordes it is not vnknowē to you that the chyef cause why you do count me and suche as I am for heretikes because we be not at vnitie with your churche You saye you are of the true churche And we saye we are of the true churche You say that who is out of your churche is dampned And we thinke veryly on the other syde that yf we departe from the true church wheron we are graffed in Godes worde we should stande in the state of dampnacion Wherfore yf your lordships can bring any better auctorities for your churche than we can do for ours and proue by the scriptures that the church of Rome nowe of the which you are is the true catholike churche as in all your sermons writinges and argumētes you do vpholde And that all christē persons owght to be ruled by the same vnder payne of dāpnation as you saye and that the same churche as you pretend haue auctoritie to entreprete the scriptures as it semeth her good and that all men are bounde to folowe suche interpretacions only I shal be as conformable to the same church as you maye desire me the which otherwyse I dare not Therfore I require you for Goddes sake to satisfie me in this Cole Yf you stād vpō this point onlye you maye sone be satisfied you list Phil. It is the thing that I require And to this I haue sayd I wil stand referre al other controuersies I stande nowe agaynst you wyl put my hande therto yf you mistrust my worde London I praie you maister Philpot what fayth were you of .xx. yeares ago this man will haue euery yeare a new fayth Phil. My lord to tell you plain I thinke I was of no fayth for I was thā a wicked lyuer and knewe not God thā as I owght to do God forgyue me London No were that is not soo I am sure you were of some fayth Phil. My lord I haue declared you on my conscience what I than was and iudge of my selfe And what is that to the purpose of the thing I desire to be satisfied of you London Maister Archdeacon Colle I praye you say your mynd to hym Cole What will you saye yf I can proue that it was decreed by a vniuersall counsel in Athanasius tyme that al the christiane church should folowe the determinacion of the churche of Rome but I do not nowe remembre where phil If you master doctor can shewe me the same graunted to the sea of Rome by the auctoritie of the scripture I will gladlye herken therto But I thinke you be not hable to shewe any such thing for Athanasius was precident of Nicene counsell there was no suche thing decreed I am sure Cole Though it were not than yt might be at an other tyme. Phil. I desire to see the profe therof And vpon this maister Harpesfyld Chaūceler to the bishop of London brought in a boke of Ireneus which certayne leaues turned in layd it before the bishops to helpe them in their perplexitie yf it might be the which after the bishops of Bath Glocester had reade together the bishop of Glocester gaue me the booke Glocest Take the booke master Philpot and loke vpon that place and ther may you see howe the churche of Rome is to be folowed of all men Phil. I toke the
I am contēt For I am vnder your feete to be troden on as you list God forgyue it you yet am I no heretike neyther you nor any other shal be able to proue that I holde any iote agaynst the worde of God otherwyse then a christian man ought Storie The worde of God forsoth the worde of God Yt is but a follye to reason with these heretiks for they ar incurable and desperat But as I maye reasō with the not that I haue any hope to wynne thee whom will thou apoynt to be iudge of the worde wherto thou standest phil Verely the worde it selfe Storie Do you not see the ignorauncie of this beastly heretike he willeth the word to be Iudge of the worde cā the word speake Phil. Yf I can not proue that which I haue sayd by good auctoritie I wil be cōtent to be coūted an heretike an ygnorāt persō further what you please Storie Let vs heare what wyse auctoritie thou canst bring in phil It is the sayng of Christ in S. Iohn verbū quod locutus sum iudicabit in nouissimo dic The worde which I haue spoken sayth Christ shall Iudge in the last daye Yf the worde shal iudge in the last daye muche more it ought to Iudge our doinges nowe And I am sure I haue my Iudge on my side who shall absolue iustifie me in an other world howsoeuer now it shall please you by auctoritie vnrighteouslye to Iudge of me and others sure I am in an other worlde to Iudge you Storie What you purpose to be a stinking martyr and to syt in Iudgemēt with Christ at the last daye to Iudge the twelue trybes of Israel Phil. Yea syr I doubt not therof hauing the promise of Christ yf I die for righteousnes sake which you haue begon to persecute in me Storie I told you it is but vayne to argue with this heretike he is drowned in his heresies wtout al learning Phil. Syr I haue brought you for that I haue sayd good auctoritie out of Goddes booke to the which you answere nothing but goo about stil to gyue raylīg iudgemēt agaynst me wtout any cause Storie I wil com to you by by when the iudge in westminster halle geueth sentence doth the worde gyue sentence or the iudge tel me phil Ciuil maters be subiect to ciuil mē and they haue autoritie by the worde to be iudge of them But the word of God is not subiecte to mans iudgement but ought to iudge al the wysedome thoughtes and doynges of men And therfore your cōparison disproueth nothing that I haue sayd neither answereth any whyt therto Storie Wilt thou not alowe the interpretacion of the churche vpon the scripture Phil. Yes yf it be according to the word of the true churche and this I saye to you as I haue sayd heretofore that yf ye can proue the churche of Rome wherof ye are to be the true catholyke churche which I ought to folowe I wylbe as ready to yelde therto as long as it can be so proued as you may desire me Storie What a felowe is this he wil beleue nothing but he list him selfe Are we not in possession of the church haue not your forfathers these many hundreth yeres taken this churche for the catholyke churche wherof we are now And yf we had none other profe but this it were sufficient For prescription of tyme maketh a good tytle in the law Phil. You do wel M. doctor to alledge prescription of many yeares That al is nothing but a lye for it is al that you haue to shewe for your selues But you must vnderstande Ex diuinis nulla occurrit praescriptio that prescriptiō hath no place in maters belonging to God as I am hable to shewe by the testimonye of many doctors Storie Wel syr you are lyke to go after your fathers Latimer the Sophister Now Story ye shewe your selfe in your Colours Rydley who had nothyng to alledge for hym selfe but that he had learned his heresie of Cranmer where I came to him with a poore bacheler of art he trēbled as though he had had the palsey as these heretikes haue alwayes some token of feare wherby a man maye knowe them as you may se this mans eyes do tremble in his head But I despatched them And I tel thee that there hath ben yet neuer a one burnt but I haue spoken with him haue ben a cause of his despatche Phil. You haue the more to answere for M. doctor as you shal fele it in an other worlde how moche so euer you do now triumphe of your procedinges Storie I tel thee I wil neuer be cōfessed therof And bicause I cannot now tarye to speake with my lorde I pray you one of you tel my lorde that my cōmyng was to signifye to his lordship that he must out of hande ryd this heretike awaye And goyng away he sayd vnto me I certifye the that thou maist thanke none other man for it but me Phil. I thanke you therfore with al myne hart and God forgeue it you Storie What doest thou thanke me yf I had thee in my study half an houre I thinke I should make you syng an other song Phil. No maister doctor I stande vp on to sure a grounde to be ouerthrowen by you nowe And thus they departed al awaye from me one after an other vntyl I was left al alone And afterwards with my keper goyng to my colehouse as I went I met with my lorde of London who spake vnto me gently as he hath hitherto in wordes sayeng London Philpot yf ther be any pleasure I maye shewe you in my house I pray you require it you shal haue it phil My lorde the pleasure that I will require of your lordship is to hasten my iudgemēt which is cōmitted vnto you and so dispatsche me forth of this miserable worlde vnto my eternal rest And for all his fayre speache I can not attayne hytherto this forthnight space neyther fyer nor candle neyther yet good lodgyng But it is good for a man to be brought lowe in this world and to be counted amongest the vylest that he may in tyme of rewarde receyue exaltacion and glorie Therfore praysed be God that hath humbled me and gyuen me grace with gladnes to be content therwith all Let all that loue the truth saye Amen The fyfth tragedye The sixt examinacion of Iohn Phylpot had before the right honorable lordes lord Chamberleyne to the kinges maiestie the Vicount Hereforde commonly called lord Ferrers my lord Ryche my lord saynt Iohns the lord wyndsore the lord Shandoys Sir Iohn of brydges Lieutenaunt of the tower and two other mo whose names I know not with the bishop of London D. Chedsey the syxt daye of Nouēbre Anno Dn̄i 1555. phil BEfore that I was called before the lordes and whyles they were in sitting downe the bishop of London came asyde to me and whystred in myne care willīg me to vse my selfe
other vpon the wordes of a statute must not the wordes of the statute iudge and determine the controuersye Ryche No mary the iudges of the lawe maye determine the meaning therof London He hath brought as good example against him self as caÌ„ be And here the bishop thought he had good haÌ„d fast against me and therfore enlarged it with many wordes to the iudgemeÌ„t of the churche The lordes He hath ouerthrowen him selfe by his owne argument Phil. My lordes it semeth to your honores that you haue great aduauntage of me by the example I brought in to expresse my cause but yf it be pondered throughly it maketh holly with me and nothing against me as my lorde of London hath preteÌ„ded For I wil aske of my lorde Ryche here whom I knowe to haue good knowledge in the lawes and statutes of this realme Albeit a iudge may decerne the meaning of a statute agreable to the wordes whether the same may iudge a meaning coÌ„trary to the expresse wordes or no Ryce He can not so do phil Euen so saye I that no man ought to iudge the worde of God to haue a meanyng contrarye to the expresse wordes therof as this false churche of Rome dothe in many thinges And with this the lordes semed to be satisfyed made no further replicacion herin Ryche I maruel theÌ„ why you do deny the expresse wordes of Christ in the sacrament sayeng this is my body yet you wil not sticke to saye it is not his body Is not God omnipotent And is not he hable aswel by his omnipoteÌ„cy to make it his body as he was to make man fleshe of a pece of claye did not he saye this is my body which shal be betrayed for you and was not his verye body betrayed for vs therfore it must nedes be his bodye London My lorde Ryche you haue said wonderful wel and lernedly But you myght haue begon with him before also in the sixt of IohnÌ„ where Christ promised to gyue his body in the sacrament of the altare sayeng panis quem â—go dabo caro mea est The breade which I wil gyue is my fleshe Howe can you answere to that Phil. If it please you to gyue me leaue to answere fyrst my lorde Ryche I wil also answere the obiection Ryche Answere my lorde of London first and after come to me phil My lorde of London may be sone answered that the sayeng of S. IohnÌ„ is that the humanitie of Christ which he toke on him for the redemption of man is the bread of lyfe wherby our bodyes and soules be susteyned to eternal lyfe of the which the sacramentall bread is a lyuely representacion and an effectuall cohabitatioÌ„ to al suche as beleue on his passion and as Christ sayeth in the same syxte of IohnÌ„ I am the bread that came from heauen but yet he is not material neither natural breade Lykewyse the bread is his fleshe not natural or substanciall but by signification and by grace in a sacrament And nowe to my lorde Ryches argument I do not deny the expresse wordes of Christ in the sacrament this is my bodye But I denye that they are naturally and corporally to be taken but sacramentally and spiritually according to the expresse declaracion of Christ sayeng that the wordes of the sacrament which the Capernaites toke carnally as the Papistes nowe do ought to be taken spiritually and not carnally as they falsely ymagine not wayeng what interpretacion Christ hathe made in this behalfe Neither folowe the institution of Christ nether the vse of the Apostles and of the primatiue churche who neuer taught neither declared no such carnal maner of preseÌ„ce as is nowe exacted of vs violently with out any grounde of scripture or antiquitie who vsed to put out of the church al suche as dyd not receaue the sacrament with the rest also to burne that which was left after the receyuyng as by the Canon of the Apostles and by the decre of the counsel of Antioche London No that is not so they were only Cathecumeni which went out of the churche at the celebration of the coÌ„munion and none other Phil. It was not only of suche as were Nouices in fayth but al others that did not receyue London What saye you to the omnipotency of God is not he hable to performe that which he spake as my lord Ryche hath very wel sayd I tel thee that God by his omnipotency maye make hym selfe to be this carpet yf he will Phil. As concerning the omnipotency of God I saye that God is hable to do as the prophet Dauid fayeth what so euer he willeth But he willeth nothing that is not agreable to his worde as that is blasphemy which my lorde of LoÌ„don hath spoken that God may become a carpet For as I haue learned of auncient wryters Non potest Deus facere quae suÌ„t naturae suae contraria That is God can not do that which is contrary to his nature as it is contrary to the nature of God to be a carpet A carpet is a creature God is the creator and the creator can not be the creature wherfore onles you can declare by the worde that Christ is otherwyse present with vs then spiritually and sacramentally by grace as he hath taught vs you pretende the omnipotency of God in vayne London Why will you not saye that Christ is really present in the sacrament or do you denye it Phil. I denye not that Christ is really in the sacrament to the receauer therof according to Christes institution London What meane you by really present Phil. I meane by really present present in dede London Is God really present euerywhere phil He is so London Howe proue you that phil The prophet Esay sayeth that God filleth all places and where so euer be two or thre gathered together in Christes name there is he in the middest of them London What his humanitie Phil. No my Lorde I meane the Deitie according to that you demaunded Ryche My lorde of LondoÌ„ I pray you let maister doctor Chedsey reason with him and let vs see how he can answer him for I tel thee he is a learned man in dede one that I do credit before a great many of you whose doctrine the Quenes maiestie and the hole realme dothe wel alowe therfore heare him London My lordes I praye you wil it please you to drinke You haue talked a great whyle and muche talke is thrustye I wyl leaue maister doctor and him reasoning together a whyle with your leaue wyl come to you by and by agayne They went as I suppose to make rowme for more drinke after the lordes had dronke Riche My lorde Ryche sayd to the lordes I praye you let the poore man drinke for he is thristy And with that he called for a cup of drynke and gaue it me and I dranke before them all God requite it him for I was athirst in dede Afterwardes doctor Chadsey began in this wyse
toke away my inthorne LondoÌ„ And why shouldest thou goo about any such thiÌ„g vnknowing vnto me being thy keper for I am thy keper in this house I tel the. phil My lord bicause you haue caused my pennar and ynkhorne to be taken from me I wold yet fayne that my freÌ„des myght vnderstand what I lacke not that I intended to wryte any thing that I would be afearde should come to your syght London More then this my lordes he caused a pigg to be rosted and made a knyfe to be put betwene the skyn and the fleshe A great heresie for what purpose iudge you how sayst thou dydest thou not so Phil. I can not deny but ther was halfe a pig sent me and vnder the same a knyfe lyeng in the sawse but for no yll pourpose the I know your lordship may iudge what you will It was not to kyll my selfe nor none other as you would haue men to beleue for I was neuer yet without a knife synce I came to prison therfore all these be but false surmises and not worth rehearsall London I haue here to lay to his charge chefest of al his boke of the report of the disputacioÌ„ had in the coÌ„uocacioÌ„ house which is the rankest heresy that may be against the blessed sacrament of the altare How say you M. doctor weston dyd he maintaine the same there stubbornly or no weston Yea my lorde that he dyd and would neuer be answered And it is pytie that the same worshipful coÌ„gregation should be slaundered with such vntrue reportes phil You answered me in dede M.S. beyng then prolocutor goodly with holde thy peace and haue him to prison and put him out of the house I haue red the boke and I fynde the reporte of euery mans argument to be true in all pointes And yf ther be any fault it is bicause it setteth furth your doynges to fauourably nothyng lyke to that you dyd vse me beyng an archdiacon not of the worst of the house weston Thou art no Archdeacon phil In dede M. S. ye haue among you vnarchediaconed me as nowe I thanke God of it and that without all order of lawe London I pray you my lordes harken what he writeth of him selfe I red it ouer this mornyng and made a note of it He sayeth that D. Weston called him frantike and mad man and sayd he should go to Bethlehem phil In dede my lord so it pleased M. weston to taunt at me saye his shameful pleasure but yet I was no whyt the more so for al his sayenges then Christ was when the Scribes and the Pharisies sayd likewyse he was mad that he was possessed of a deuell most blasphemously Duresme My lorde of London I can tary no longer I must nedes byd you farewel M. Philpot me thynketh you haue sayd wel that you will abyde in the catholike fayth and in the catholike churche I praye you so do you shall do ryght well And so he departed with M. weston and M. Hussey Phil. I haue purposed so to do how so euer I spede by Goddes grace Lond. I praye you my lorde of Chichester and M. prolocutor and M. doctor Morgane to coÌ„mon with him whiles I bring my lorde of Duresme goyng Christoforson M. Philpot I was acquaynted with you at Rome yf you be remembred but you haue forgotteÌ„ me and talked somwhat with you of these maters and I fynde you nowe the same man as you were then I wyshe it were otherwyse For goddes sake be conformable to men that be better learned then you and stande not in your owne conceat phil Where as you cal me to remembraunce of acquayntauÌ„ce had at Rome in dede it was so though it were but very straunge on your parte to me warde beyng dryuen to necessitie Christo You knowe the worlde was daungerous at that tyme. Phil. Nothing so daungerous as it is nowe but let that passe where as you saye you finde me the same man I was then I prayse God for that you se not me lyke a rede wanderyng with euerye wynde And where as you would haue me folowe better learned men then my selfe in dede I do acknowlage that you with a great meany other ar farre better learned then I whose bokes in respecte of learnyng I am not worthy to cary after you but fayth and the wysedome of God consysteth not in learning only therfore S. Paul willeth that our faith be not grouÌ„ded vpon the wysedome of man Yf you can shewe by learnyng out of Goddes boke that I ought to be of an other fayth then I am I will heare you any other maÌ„ what so euer he be Christo I maruel why you should dissent from the catholike churche synce it hath thus long vniuersally ben receaued excepte within this fyue or syx yeares here in Englande Phil. I do not dissent from the true catholike churche I do only dissent from the churche of Rome which yf you can proue to be the catholike church of Christ I will be of the same also with you Christo Wil you beleue S. Cyprian yf I can shewe you out of him ê™ Ecclesia Romana est talis ad quam perfidia accedere non potest That the church of Rome is such a one vnto the which mysbeleue can not approche phil I am sure you can not shewe any suche sayeng out of S. Cyprian Christo What wil you lay theron phil I wil laye as muche as I am able to make D. Morgan Wyl you promise to recant yf he shewe his sayeng to be true phil My fayth shal not heng vpon no doctours sayeng further then he shal be hable to proue the same by goddes worde Christo I wil go fet the boke and shew it him by and by and ther withall he went into the bishops studie fet CypriaÌ„ and appointed out these wordes in one of his epistles Ad Romanos autem quorum fides Apostolo praedicante laudata est noÌ„ potest accedere perfidia Cipri ad Corne. vel ad Steâ—pha But vnto the Romayns whose fayth by the testimony of the Apostle is praysed misbelefe caÌ„ haue no accesse phil These wordes of Cyprian do nothing proue your pretensed assertion which is that to the churche of Rome there could come no mysbelefe Christo Good Lorde no dothe what can be sayd more playnly Phil. He speaketh not of the churche of Rome absolutely Christo By God a childe that can but his grammar will not deny that you do the wordes be so playne Phil. Sweare not M. D. but way Cyprianes wordes with me and I shall make you to saye as I haue sayd Chresto I am no D. but I perceaue it is but labour lost to reason with you London And with that the B. of London came in blowyng agayne sayd what is my lorde of Chichester gone awaye also for he euen a lytle before departed also without any other word sayeng but he must nedes be gone what is the
mater you now stāde vpō Morgan M. Christoforson hath shewed M. Philpot a notable place for the authoritie of the churche of Rome and he maketh nothing of it London Where is the place let me se by my fayth here is a place alone Come hither sir what say you to this Nay tary a lytle I will helpe this place with S. Paules owne testimony the first to the Romaynes where he sayeth that their fayth is preached through out the worlde how can you be hable to answere to this Phil. Yes my lorde it is sone answered if you well consider all the wordes of Ciprian for he speaketh of suche as in his tyme were faythfull at Rome that folowed the doctrine of S Paul as he had taught them and as it was notyfied throughout the world by an epistle which he had written in the commēdation of theyr fayth With such as are praysed of S. Paull at Rome for foloing the true fayth mysbelefe can haue no place And now if you can shew that the fayth which the church of Rome holdeth is that fayth which the Apostle praysed and alowed in the Romains in his tyme then wil I saye with S. Cyprian and with you that infidelitie can haue no place there but otherwyse it maketh not absolutely for the authoritie of the church of R. as you do mistake it Christo You vnderstande Cyprian wel in dede I thynke you neuer red hym in your lyfe Phil. Yes M. S. that I haue I can shewe you a boke noted with myne owne hande though I haue nor red so muche as you yet I haue red somwhat It is shame for you to wrast and wryth the doctors as you do to mayntaine a false religiō which be altogether against you yf you take them aright yf your false packing of the doctors together hath geuen me and others occasion to loke vpon them wherby we fynd you shamfull lyars and mysreporters of the auncyent doctors Morgan What wil you be in hāde to alow doctors now they of your sect do not so I maruel therfore you wil alowe them Phil. I do alowe them in asmuche as they do agre with the scriptures so do al they which be of the truthe how so euer you terme vs I praise God for the good vnderstanding I haue receaued by thē Christo What you vnderstande not the doctors you may be ashamed to say it Phil. I thanke God I vnderstāde thē better thē you For you haue excoecationem cordis the blindnes of hart so that you vnderstande not truely what you read no more thē the wal here as the taking of Cipriā doth wel declare And afore god you are but deceauers of the people for al your brag you make of learning neither haue ye scripture or auncient doctor on your syde beyng truely taken Chriho Why al the doctors be on our syde against you altogether Phil. Yea so you say when ye be in your pulpits alone and none to answer you But yf you wil come to cast accōptes with me therof I wil ventre with you a recanraciō that I as lytle syght as I haue in the doctors wil bring more authorities of aunciēt doctors on my syde thē you shal be able for yours he that cā bring most to him let the other syde yeld Are you cōtent here with Christo It is but foly to reasō with you you wil beleue no mā but your selfe phil I wil beleue you or any other learned mā yf you cā bring any thing worthy to be beleued You cā not winne me with vayne wordes frō my faythe Before God ther is no truth in you Mor. what no truth no truth ha ha he Phil. Except the articles of the Trinitie you are corrupt in al other thīges are soūd in nothing Morg. What say you do we not beleue wel on the sacrament Phil It is the thing which among all other you do most abuse Mor. Wherin I pray you tel vs Phil. I haue tolde you before this M. S. in the cōuocaciō house Mor. Yea mary in dede you told vs there very well for there you fell downe vpon your knees fell to weping ha ha ha phil I dyd wepe in dede so dyd Christ vpon Ierusalem am not to be blamed therfore yf you cōsyder the cause of my weping Mor. What make you your selfe Christ ha ha ha Phil. No syr I make not my selfe Christ but I am not ashamed to do as my M. saueour did to bewaile lament your infydelytie and idolatry which I there forsawe through tyrannye you would bring agayne to this realme as this daye doth declare Morgan That is your argument Christo Wherin do we abuse the sacrament tel vs Pihl. As I may touche but one of the least abuses you minister it not in both kyndes as you ought to do but kepe the one halfe frō the people cōtrary to Christes institution Chri. why is ther not asmuch cōtained in one kind as in bothe and what nede is it then to minister it in bothe kindes phil I beleue not so for yf it had Christ would haue geuen but the one kinde only for he instituted nothīg superfluous and therfore you cannot say that the hole effect of the sacrament is aswell in one find as in both synce the scripture reacheth otherwise Christofor What if I can proue it by scripture that we may minister it in one kinde the Apostles dyd so as it may appeare in the Actes of the Apostles in one or two places where it is written that the Apostles contynued in orationibus fractione panis in prayers and in breaking of bread which is ment of the sacrament Phil. Why master doctor do you not knowe that S. Luke by making mentiō of the breaking of breade meaneth the hole vse of the sacrament according to Christes institution by a figure which you haue learned in gramer metinomia where part is mentioned and the hole vnderstanded to be done as Christ commaunded it Christofor Nay that is not so For I can shewe out of Eusebius in Ecclesi historia that ther was a man of God whom he named that sent the sacrament in one kind by a boy to one that was sicke Phil. I haue red in dede that they dyd vse to gyue that was left of the communion bread to children to maryners to women and so perauenture the boy might cary a piece of that was left to the sycke man Christofor Nay as a sacrament it was purposely sent vnto him Phil. Yf it were so yet can you not precysely say that he had not the cup ministred vnto him also by some other sent vnto him but what though one mā did vse it thus dothe it folow that al men may do the like S. Ciprian noteth many abuses of the sacrament in his time which rose vpō singular mens exāples as vsing of water in stede of wine therfore he sayeth Non respiciendum quid aliquis ante nos fecerit sed quid
phil And I was had into the wardrobe agayne by my keper and within an howre after was sent for to come before him and the bishops of Worcester and Bangor Lond. Syr I haue talked with you many tymes and haue caused you to be talked with all of many learned men yea and honourable bothe temporall and spirituall and yet it auayleth nothing with you I am blamed that I haue brought thee afore so many for they say thou gloryest to haue many to talke withal Well nowe it lieth the vpon to loke to thy selfe for thy tyme drawith nere to an ende yf thou be not become conformable And at this present we are sent from the synod to offer you this grace that yf you wil come to the vnitie of the churche of Rome with vs and acknowledged the reall presence of Christ in the sacrament of the altare with vs all that is past shal be forgeuen and you receyued to fauour worcest M. Philpot we are sent as you here haue heard by my lord of Londō frō the synod to offer you mercye yf you wil receiue it And of good will I beare you I wishe you to take it whiles it is offred and be not a singular man agaynst a hole multytude of learned men which nowe in fasting and prayer are gathered together to ymagyne thinges to do you good There haue many learned men talked with you why should you thinke your selfe better learned thā them all be not of suche arrogauncy but haue humilitie and remembre ther is no saluacion but in the churche Bangor Me thinketh my lord hath sayde wonderfully well vnto you that you should not thinke your selfe so well learned but other men are as wel learned as you neither of so good wyt but other be as wise as you neyther of so good memory but other haue as good memory as you Therfore mystrust your owne iudgement and come home to vs agayne Iwis I neuer lyked your religion bicause it was set further by violence and tyranny The same token proueth your religion false and that is no token of true religion And I was that same maner of man then that I am nowe and a great meany mo Mary for fear we held our peace and bare with the tyme wherfore M. Philpot I would you did wel for I loue you and therfore be cōtent to come home with vs agayne into the catholyke churche of Rome Phil. Where my lorde as I maye begynne first to answere you that you say that religion is to be misliked which is set forth by tyrāny I pray God you giue not men occasion to thinke the same by yours at this daye which hath none other argument to stande by but violēce Yf you can shewe me by any good sufficient grounde wherby to grounde my conscience that the churche of Rome is the true catholike churche whervnto you cal me I wil gladly be of the same otherwise I can not sone chaūge the religiō I haue learned these many yeres Bangor Where was your religion I pray you a hundred yeres ago that any man knewe of it Phil. It was in Germany in diuers other places apparent worcest Iesus wil you be stil so singular a man what is Germany to the hole worlde London My lordes I praye you geue me leaue to tell you that I sent for him to hear masse this morning and wote you what excuse be made vnto me for soth that he was accursed cursed allegyng his owne shame He playeth as that varlet Latimer dyd at Cambrige Harke how fyne my lorde is in dogges eloquence If he had come to mass he had ben cursed in dede when the vice Chaunceler sent for him who entended to haue excommunicated him for some of his he resies and the chaunceler was commyng to his chamber which as sone as he herde that the chaunceler was come made answer that he was sicke of the plague and so deluded the chaūceler euen so this man sayeth he is accursed because he will not come to masse worcest My Lorde I am sure here dothe behaue him selfe lyke a father vnto you therfore be admonished by hym and by vs that come now frendly vnto you and folowe your fathers before you phil It is forbidden vs of God by the prophet Ezechiel to folow our fathers ▪ neither to walke in their cōmaūdemēts worcest It is written also in an other place interroga patres aske of your fathers phil We ought to aske in dede our fathers that haue more experiēce knowlage then we of Goddes will but nomore to allowe them then we perceaue they agree with the scriptures worcest You wil be a contentious mā I see well and S. Paule sayeth that we neither the church of God haue no suche custome Phil. I am not contentious but for the veritie of my fayth in the which I ought to contende with al suche as do impugne the same without any iust obiection worces Let vs ryse my lorde for I see we shal do no good London Nay I praye you tary hear the articles I laye to his charge and after he had recited them they arose and afterwarde standing they reasoned with me a whyle worces M. Philpot I am very sorye that you wil be so singular I neuer talked with non yet of my diocese but after once cōmunicatiō had with me they haue ben cōtēted to reuoke their errours to teache the people howe they were deceaued and so do muche good as you may yf you list For as I vnderstande you were archdiacon of winchester which is the eye of the B. you may do much good in the coūtrey yf you would forsake your errours come to the catholyke churche phil Wher withal you so sone persuaded them to your will I see not Erroure that I knowe I holde none and of the catholike churche I am sure I am worces The Catholike churche doth acknowlege a real presence of Christ in the sacrament and so wil not you phil That is not so For I acknowlage a very essensial presence in the sacramēt duely vsed worces What a real presence Phil. Yea a reall presens by the spirite of God in the ryght administracion worces That is wel sayd and do you agree with the catholike churche also Phil. I do agre with the true catholike churche worcest My lorde of London this mā speaketh reasonably nowe London You do agree in generalties But when it shal come to the particularities you wil farre disagree worces Wel kepe your selfe here and you shal haue other learned bishops to common farther with you as my lord of Duresme my lorde of Chichester whome I heare say you do lyke wel Phil. I do lyke them as I do all other that speaketh the truthe I haue once already spoken with them they foūde no fault with me worcest Praye in the meane season for grace to God Phil. Prayer is the comfortablest exercise I feale in my trouble and my conscience is quiet and I
haue the peace of mynde which can not be the frutes of heresye worces We wil byd you fare wel for this tyme. phil After dyner they called for me agayne and demaunded of me whether I ment as I spake before dyner not go from it to whom I answered that I would not go from that I had sayd worces You sayd at my departing from you before dyner that yf we dyd burne you we should burne a catholike mā Wil you be a catholike mā stande to the catholike churche Phil. I wil stande to the true catholike churche worces Wil you stande to the catholike churche of Rome phil Yf you can proue the same to be the catholike churche I wil be one therof worces Dyd not Christ saye vnto Peter and to all his successours of Rome Pasce oues meas pasce agnos meos Fede my shepe fede my lambes which doth signifye that he gaue hym more authoritie than the rest phil That sayeng pertayneth nothing to the autoritie of Petre aboue others but declareth what Christ requireth of his beloued Apostles that they should with all diligence preache to the flocke of Christ the way of saluacion and that doth the iterracion of feding spoken to Petre only signifie But the bishop of Rome lytle regardeth this spiritual feding and therfore he hath ymagined an easyer waye to make him selfe lord of the hole world yea and of Goddes word to and doth not fede Christes flocke as Petre dyd worces Howe can you tell that phil Yes I haue ben there I could not learne of al his contrey men that euer he preacheth worces Though he preached not one way he preacheth an other by procuring good order for the churche to be kepte in phil I am sure that it wil be his damnacion before God that he leaueth that he is commaunded of Christe and setteth furthe his owne decrees to deface the gospel worces It is the euill lyuing that you haue sene at Rome that causeth you to haue this yl iudgement of the church of Rome I can not tary nowe with you to reasō further of this mater Howe say you to the reall presence of the sacrament wil you stand to that Phil. I do acknowledge as I haue sayd a reall presence of the sacrament in the dewe administracion therof to the worthy receauers by the spirite of God wor. You adde now a great meany mo wordes thē you did before yet you say more of the sacrament then a great meany will do Thus they departed After them came in to me D. Chadsey D. wright Archdeacon of Oxforde with a great meany mo MAister Philpot here is maister Archdeacon of Oxforde come to you Chadsey to gyue you good councel I pray you heare him Phil. I will refuse to heare none that will councell me any good and yf any can bring any mater better thā I haue I wil sticke thervnto wright I would wyshe you master Philpot to agre with the catholike church and not to stād in your owne cōceyt you see a great me any of learned men agaynst you phil I am master doctor of the vnfayned catholike churche and will lyue and dye therin and yf you can proue your churche to be the true catholike church I wil be one of the same wright I came not to dispute with you but to exhorte you here be better learned than I that cā enforme you better than I Chadsey Thy hart knoweth that thy mouth lyeth Chad. What profe would you haue I wil proue vnto you our church to haue his being foūdatiō by the scriptures by the Apostles by the primatiue church cōfirmed with the bloud of martirs and the testymony of al confessours phil Gyue me your hand master doctor proue that and haue with you Chadsey If I had my bokes here I could sone proue it I wil go fette som with that he went fette his boke of annotaciōs saieng I cannot bring my bokes wel Therfore I haue brought my boke of annotaciōs And turned ther to a common place of the sacramēt asking me whether the catholike church did not allowe the presēs of Christes body in the sacramēt or no I heare say you do confesse a real presence hangyng is to good for thee but I wil be hanged if you will abide by it you will deny it by and by Phil. That I haue sayd I cannot deny neither intend not what soeuer you say Chadsey If there be a real presence in the sacrament than euill mē receyue Christ which thīg you wil not graūt I am suer Phil I deny the argument For I do not graunt in the sacrament by transubstāciacion any real presence as you falsely ymagyne But in the dewe administration to the worthy receyuers Chadsey I wil proue that the euel wicked men eat the body of Christ as wel as the good men by S. Austine here phil And in the beginning of his text S Austine semed to approue his assertiō but I bad him reade out to the ende and there S Austine declareth that it was quodam modo after a certayn maner the euill men receyued the body of Christ which is sacramētally only in the vtter signes not really or in dede as the good doth And thus al the doctors that you seme to bring in for your purpose be quite against you yf you did vp rightly way them Chad. By God you ar a subtil felow se howe he would wrythe S. Austines wordes phil See who of vs wryeth S. Austine more you or I which take his meanīg by his owne expresse wordes And seing you charge me of subtiltie what subtilty is this of you to say that you wil proue your mater of the churche euen from the begynning promysyng to shew your bokes therin and when it commeth to the shewing you are hable to shewe none and for want of profe slip into a bye mater and yet faynt in the profe therof Afore God you ar bare arst in all your religion Chadsey You shal be constrayned to come to vs at lenght whether you wyl or no. phil Holde that argument fast for that is the best you haue for you haue nothing but violence The thursdaye after I was called in the mornyng before the Archbishop of Yorke the B. of Chichster the B. of Bathe and the B. of London the B. of Chichester beyng fyrst come began to talke wyth me I Am come of good will to talke with you to instructe you what I can to come to the catholyke churche and to will you to mistrust your owne iudgement and to learne fyrste to haue humilite and by the same to learne of others that be better learned thē you as they did learne of suche as were theyr betters before them phil We must be all taught of God and I will with all humilitie learne of them that will enforme me by Goddes word what I haue to do I confesse I haue but lytle learning in respecte of you that both for