out of Ranulfus Cestrensis in New Colledge in Oxford Who thinke you was so mad PROT. Why who but a Papist For do not they giue direction that quae famae proximorum praesertim Ecclesiasticorum Principum detrahunt corrigentur at que expurgentur That such things should be altered or put out which tend to the discredite of the Clergie And doth not this touch at quicke their Ecclesiasticall state Doth not Posseuine aduise that the note in Iohn Neuisan the Lawyer which mentioneth Pope Ioane should be razed out Dele saith he quia Iohannes haec foemina chimera est impostura calumniatorum Blot it out or rend it out quoth Posseuine for it is but a fiction and a forgery PAP You are too suspitious of Papists But if these answers whereon I haue hitherto insisted please you not let it be as you would haue it that all these Historians writ so yet I denie that any credit is herein to be giuen unto them because they report it but by hearesay with vt asseritur PROT. That is false For Marianus Scotus reports it simply without vt asseritur as before I shewed And Laonicus Chalcocondylas reports it as a certaine truth saying Constat c. So doth Rauisius Textor and others PAP That which you say of Marianus Scotus is true if we were to be iudged by the printed copie which Heroldus set out But I can assure you that Heroldus vnconscionably corrupted this place and many others For it is thus written in the written copie after which the first edition was printed Ioh anneâ—s â—ui vt asseritur fuit mulier Iohn who as the report goes was a woman PROT. So your Cardinall Baronius would make vs beleeue I grant but he brings no other proofe thereof then teste meipso Which how euer it may go for proofe among Princes yet is no proofe among scholers And for my part without proofe I beleeue nothing whosoeuer he be that speakes it especially if he be a Papist For as Sigismund the Emperour said of Iudian the Cardinall Legate at the Councell of Basil when one commended him highly to him Tamen Romanus est Yea but he is a Romaine so I may say of any Papist reporting things vnknown yea but he is a Papist Yet be it so as Baronius saith it is Why may it not be true though it be deliuered with vt asseritur PAP Why Because lies are commonly so soothed PROT. Indeed many lies passe in such generall termes As for example Men say saith your Legend that S. Patrik droue with his staffe all the venimous beasts out of Ireland and that he obtained of the Lord that no Irish man should abide the coming of Antichrist The former of which Harpsfield Cope confesseth to be a lie and so I thinke al the generation of you Papists thinke of the later Else why do none of your great Maisters alledge it to cleare your Pope from being Antichrist Men say saith Nangiacus as Genebrard reporteth that Kentish-men haue tailes like bruite beasts because their ancestors mocked Austine the Monke when he came to preach vnto theÌ„ Now that this is a lie wel worthie of a whetstone your self I hope wil acknowledge Yet truth now and then is so deliuered When Boniface the Martyr was demanded on a time whether it was lawfull at the administration of the Lords Supper to vse a wodden chalice it is said he answered thus saith Duaren Olim aurei sacerdotes ligneis vasis nunc lignei aureis vtuntur In old time golden Priests vsed wodden chalices now wodden Priests vse golden chalices Marke fertur it is said saith Duaren yet no question but he answered so In like maner it is written that Pius the 2. was wont to say Mariage was vpon iust reason forbidden Priests but now vpon better reason to be restored to Priests Of which his saying there is made no question as may appeare by this that a Iesuite replieth onely to it That it was recanted by him and denieth not that it was spoken of him That Alexander the 3. trampled the Emperour Fredericke vnder his feete and commnded one to say that which is in the Psalmes Thou shalt walke vpon the Lion and Aspe the yong Lion and the Dragon shalt thou tread vnder thy feete is recorded by some with vt fertur and yet they haue litle to say for themselues who call the truth thereof in question That merry Cardinall who seeing after the death of Clemens the 4. that his fellow Cardinals called still for the assistance of the holy Ghost and yet could not agree vpon the election of a new Pope cried out Domini discooperiamus tectum camerae huius quia spiritus sanctus nequit ad nos per tot tecta ingredi My good maisters I pray you let vs vntile the roofe of this roome for I feare the holy Ghost cannot get to vs thorow so many slates is meerely reported vpon election of Gregory to haue made these verses Papatus munus tulit Archidiaconus vnus Quem patrem patrum fecit discordia fratrum Yet who doubts but he made them Nicolas Clemangis Archdeacon of Baion in France doth write vpon hearesay That when Balthasar commonly knowne by the name of Iohn the 23. held a Councel at Rome and caused as the maner is before the first Session a Masse to be said for the assistance of the holy Ghost presently vpon the Councels setting of themselues downe and Balthasars aduancing himselfe into his chaire of estate a dreadfull Owle which is ordinarily thought to presage some euill towards comes out of her hole crying after her euill fauoured fashion and flying to the middle balk of the Church staring iust in Balthasars face to the great astonishment of Balthasar himself and all the whole Councel so that he was glad to breake off for that time Yea he writes that at the next Session she appeared againe staring in the Popes face as before and could not be feared away with flinging of stickes or with whooping till one feld her with a sticke and so killed her Yet no man hath cause to doubt of the story for he had it of a trusty man and a faithfull friend of his who assured him of his credite that it was true That S. Cyril intreated the Pope he might say the Morauians their seruice in a knowne language and that when there was some sticking at the motion a voice was heard as it were from heauen saying Omnis spiritus laudet Dominum omnis lingua confiteatur ei Let euery thing that hath breath praise the Lord and let euery tongue confesse his holy name vpon hearing whereof the Pope granted S. Cyril his suite is but reported with ferunt And yet though Costerus in that respect make some question of the truth of it Ledesma and Bellarmine receiue it for true That the worst
to him will make a foole of you For doth not he mention diuerse of his Complaining Epistles sent to great personages wherein yet he complaines of nothing but that Courtriers robd his Corban I meane his Monasterie That he wanted an ambling Nagge to ride to Rome on That he wanted Tully de Oratore Quintilian and Donate vpon Terence And that there was such licentiousnesse in France among the Laitie that the people neither feared God nor the diuell Of faults among the Clergie Lupus complaines not at all PAP Luitprandus who writ an historie speakes nothing of her PROT. What historie of Luitprandus do you meane That which is intituled De vitis Pontificum that is of the Popes liues which was printed the other yeare at Mentz with Anastasius or his historie of such accidents as fell out through Europe PAP I meane the latter For I see the former though it carry the name of Luitprandus cast off by the Printer as none of his PROT. Now then you are a wise man to tell me that Luitprandus mentions not Pope Ioane For Luitprandus Ticiuensis Diaconns historiam per Europam gestarum libris 6 ab An. 858. ad â—0 vsque Othonis magni fere continuat saith Genebrard That is Luitprandus Deacon of such a Church in Italie continues his historie of accidents which fell out in Europe from the yeare 858. to the 30. yeare almost of Otho the great By which you may see that he began his historie after Pope Ioanes time And therefore had no cause to speake of her PAP Lambertus Schafnaburgensis hath not a word of her PROT. To this I answer first that he liued not in the same time with her he liued anno 1077. Secondly I say that this Lambertus did but touch by the way all ages from the beginning of the world to the yeare of Christ 1040. as Pontacus truly obserued though he discoursed at large of the 37 yeares that followed Thirdly this Lambertus doth not so much as name Stephen the 4 or Paschalis or Eugenius or Valentinus or Gregorie the 4 or Sergius the 2 or Leo the 4 or Benedict the third or Nicolas or Adrian the second and therefore what maruell if he speake not of this Pope Ioane PAP Otho Frisingensis who liued about the yeare 1150. makes no mention of this storie PROT. But he doth For Iohn the seueuth saith he was a woman PAP They who liued within a few yeares after her and writ at length of all other accidents write nothing of her and that is another presumption it is but a fable which is reported of her PROT. Who are they you meane PAP The first is Iohannes Diaconus who in the yeare 870. writ of the Popes liues PROT. That Iohannes Diaconus w. it S. Gregory the great his life I grant and as some say Clements but that he writ of any more Popes I vtterly denie You haue a pretie gift in alledging writings that neuer were But say on PAP Milo Monachus who liued Anno 871. saith nothing of her PROT. Milo Monachus I beleeue saith nothing of her nor any other Pope for he writ no historie They who commend him do commend him for a Rhetorician and for a Poet and for a Musitian but not for an Historiographer PAP Passeratius Rabertus who liued in the yeare 881. saith nothing of her PROT. This Passeratius is surely some author of your owne deuising For no man can tell any newes of him But perhaps you would say Paschatius Ratbertus for such a one liued about the time you speake of Yet this writ no historie This writ neither at length nor in briefe of any of the Popes liues PAP Yea but Rhegino who liued in the yeare 910. and comprehendeth briefly all the choice matters which fell out in the time of this supposed Pope Ioane writes nothing of her PROT. Rhegino writes nothing of Iohn the 2 nor of Boniface the 4 nor of Deusdedit nor of Boniface the 5. He writes not a word of Sergius the 2 nor of Leo the 4 nor of Benedict the 3 and therefore no maruell though he write nothing of this Ioane the woman Pope PAP Why but the greatest enemies that euer the Popes had who liued in and after those times and were readie to cast in the Popes teeth whatsoeuer they knew or knew not to the end they might disgrace them yet neuer obiected this of Pope Ioane Which confirmes me much in my opinion that this is but a tale deuised long after by some craftie headed heretickes PROT. Who are these I pray you PAP Iohn Bishop of Rauenna is one of them Methodius Illyricus another and Michael Palaeologus the Emperour of Constantinople a third PROT. How know you that these neuer obiected Pope Ioanes leudnesse to the disgrace of the Romane Papacie Haue you read all that they writ and all that they spake PAP Nay their writings are not extant I confesse But a man may know how they slandered the Popes by the answers of many godly men made in defence of the Popes For as we Catholickes at this day are forced to make mention of your obiections when we vndertake to answer your bookes so in those dayes the Catholicks were driuen to make mention of the slaunders which they refuted Now in their refutation of slanders there is no such thing as this of Pope Ioane PROT. Why peâ—â—duenture they knew that in this they were slandered with a matter of truth and therefore they held it best to passe it ouer in silence Questionlesse your fellowes at this day do so often When Beza obiected this verie matter in the assembly of Poysy before the Cardinall of Lorraine and the Sorbonists of Paris who answered him Do not your owne men confesse that no man said a word to him When the Hussites as you call them obiected the same at the Councell of Constance was not silence their answer We reade in a booke lately set forth intitled Synodus Parisiensis that S. Ambrose asked Quaratione quáue authoritate imagines Angelorum vel aliorum Sanctorum ador ande sint cùm ipsi sancti Angeli vel sancti homines viuos se ador ari noluerunt What reason or what warrant men had to worship the images of men or Angels seeing the Angels themselues and holy men aliue refused to be worshipped Now the two great Cardinals Bellarmine and Baronius snarle at this booke seeking by all meanes to disgrace it Bellarmine expresly professeth the confuting of it and Baronius sets the most of it downe in his Annales euen word for word making glosses here and there vpon it in way of answer to it But both of them passe slily by the words of Ambrose If we had not had the booke it self we should neuer haue knowne by their answers of such an argument of S. Ambrose his making against Images
died so why not Pope Ioane I pray you let me heare what exceptions some wiser men take against this story For I am wearie of Florimondus fopperies PAP How is she said to haue gone from the pallace of S. Peter to S. Iohn Lateran whereas the Popes lay not then in the Vatican but at S. Iohn Lateran it selfe PROT. How proue you that the Pope lay not then in the Vatican PAP Platina witnesseth that the Popes lay not in the Vatican till Boniface the 9. his dayes to wit till the yeare 1350. PROT. Boniface the ninth liued in the yeare 1390. not 1350. wherefore in that circumstance you faile And so you do in fathering such a fancie vpon Platina For Platina reports onely that the Vatican was repaired by Boniface the ninth He saith not it was first inhabited by Boniface the 9. though if he had yet the Pope might well haue gone to see the Lateran for he had other houses to solace himselfe and his Courtiers in besides the Lateran He dwelt not alwaies in that for Gregory the fourth made two goodly houses euen out of the ground for the Popes vse as your Anastasius testifieth And Leo the 3. as we reade in the same Anastasius made another goodly house neere to S. Peters Church which stands in the Vatican wherein Leo the fourth gaue entertainment to Ludouike the Emperour But besides the stories do not report she went from S. Peters pallace to the pallace of the Lateran but from S. Peters Church to the Lateran Church For she was deliuered as they went in procession Now she might go from S. Peters Church to the Lateran Church and yet dwell in the pallace by the Lateran For Popes began not alwaies their processions at the next Church to them Leo the third appointed to go in procession three seuerall daies before ascension day And he began the first day at one of S. Maries Churches and ended at Saint Sauiours Church The second day he began at Saint Sabina the martyrs Church and ended at S. Pauls The third day he began at S. Crosses Church in Ierusalem and ended at S. Lawrences without the wals So that this question of yours is answered Let me know if you haue any more to say PAP You shall and first I will proue it a fable out of their own mouthes that report it PROT. That 's a peece of cunning in good earnest But how I pray you PAP Marry euen as Saint Marke the Euangelist proued the Iewes liers by the inconuenience of their testimonies PROT. What meane you by the inconuenience of their testimonies PAP Their disagreeing one from another PROT. But so did not S. Marke For those false witnesses whose testimonie as he notes was inconuenient agreed well enough in their tale They onely failed in this that the matter which they witnessed against him was not capitall though it had bene true For to promise the reedifying of a Church in three daies is neither fellonie nor treason And in this respect S. Marke obserues that their testimonie was inconuenient meaning to condemne him to death But what great disagreement haue you obserued among the relators of this tale PAP Infinite Insomuch that a man may well thinke God hath taken anew the same course with these which he tooke of old with them who occasioned him to say Come let vs confound their language that one of them know not what another saith PROT. That 's much I long to heare the particulars PAP So you shall by and by But first I pray you tell me by the way why Marianus the first broacher of this tale gaue her such a new fangled and new deuised name as Ioane Why tooke he that name which in former ages was proper to men onely and by changing a letter made it a womans name Florimondus cannot reach the reason of this PROT. Florimondus is a proper Squire and you are a wise man to demand such a question Reade the Scriptures and you shall find that the name of Ioane is no new deuised name nor proper to men onely For they mention one Ioane the wife of Chuza Or if for feare of prouing an hereticke you dare not reade the Scriptures reade your Legends and Festiuals and in them you shall find that your Sea-saint Nicolas his mother was called Ioane If some should heare you demand such a question they would think the foole rid you Wherefore no more of this if you respect your credit fall to shew me the manifold disagreement which you promised PAP I will And first obserue with me the confusion that is among them touching her name before her Papacy Some say she was called Agnes some Gilbert some Isabel some Margaret some Tutta or Iutta others Dorothie PROT. Who cals her I pray you either Dorothy or Iutta or Tutta who euer called her Margaret or Isabell yea who of the ancient sort of writers called her Gilbert or Agnes In some of later time I find some difference one calling her Gilbert and another Agnes But of all those whom I brought in to giue in euidence against her there is not past one or two who either before or after her Papacie giues her any other name then Ioane And for ought I know there is no man either old or yong who euer christened her Dorothie or Iutta or Isabell or Margaret Know you any that haue done so PAP No. For I find no authors cited for proofe of this neither by Florimondus nor by Baronius And I can say no more then I find in them But what say you to the next difference Do not some of your witnesses feigne her Iohn the 7 some Iohn the 8 some Iohn the 9 PROT. Who feignes her to be Iohn the 9 Not a man that I know If you bring not some author for the proofe of this point you must giue me leaue to thinke you speake ouer PAP Ouer or short I follow in this Baronius and N. D. For some saith Baronius call her Iohn the 7 some Iohn the 8 some Ioane the 9. Some saith N. D. do feigne her to be Iohn the 8 some 9. PROT. Baronius and N. D. are as like to speake ouer as you for they are Papists wherefore I neither beleeue them nor you further then I see reason And herein neither they nor you shew reason For none of you cite so much as one author good or bad for it Besides your Florimondus confesseth that we are onely troubled about this whether we should call her Iohn the 7 or Iohn the 8. He chargeth vs not with naming her Iohn the 9. PAP Well let that be your difference that you know not whether to call her Iohn the 7 or Iohn the 8. PROT. That difference is not so great For the like may be shewed in other Popes which yet you your selues confesse were Popes But who stiles her either Iohn the 7 or Iohn the 8 verily neither
into a Monasterie for his adulterie with one Iudith that there he might apart do Penance for his sinne PROT. Gregorie the fifth liued almost 150. yeares after Pope Ioane and besides there was no Emperour called Ludouike in his time Perhaps Florimondus would haue said Gregorie the fourth for he liued not long before Pope Ioanes time and in his dayes there was one Ludouike an Emperour PAP Indeed it may be so for the numerall figure might soone be mistaken For Gregorie the fourth a man may easily set downe Gregorie the fifth And what say you to it PROT. I say Florimondus is a palterer For Ludouike who liued in Gregorie the fourths time was neuer noted for an adulterer with anie Iudith nor with anie woman else Iudith his wife was suspected of that sinne with others and thereupon was veiled and thrust into a Monasterie by some of the Princes of the Empire And Ludouicke himselfe vpon other pretences was for a time depriued of the Empire But Gregorie the fourth had no hand either in her veiling or in his depriuation as you may see by Baronius Besides this fell out before Pope Ioanes time and therefore doth not hinder but that there was such a Ioane Me thinks you should be drawne drie you talke so idlely PAP If there had bene such a Pope Ioane some historian would haue written either good or bad of her But we reade nothing of her in any historie PROT. Do we reade nothing of her in any history whence haue we this of her aspiring to the Popedome and of her lewd behauiour in the time of her Popedome haue I not proued it vnto you out of the histories PAP Yea but my meaning is that we reade nothing in any historie of her reforming the Church of her determining of causes and questions usually proposed by Bishops to them that are Popes of any intercourse or affaires that she had with King or Emperour PROT. No more do we reade in any historian of any such act done by Anastasius the third who sate as Pope two years and vpward Anastasius the third as Platina witnesseth did nothing worthy of remembrance We reade nothing of any great Acts done by Leo the seuenth He sate 3 yeares and sixe moneths yet he did as little as Anastasius for any thing we reade he neither reformed the Church nor resolued any Bishop his doubts nor intermedled with any Princes PAP Oh but that age wherein you feigne that this Ioane liued was an age wherein fell out great varietie of matter both in the East and in the West In it many Princes and Emperours of great worth reigned In it many men of great learning liued And therefore if there had bene any such monster then we could not but haue heard of it on all sides PROT. So we haue as before I proued But what great varietie of matter fell there out in that age more then ordinarie PAP In that age there was old holding and drawing between the Easterne and Westerne Churches about Images Many Councels were kept by both sides and many euill words passed on all hands PROT. Go go I am ashamed of you and of Florimondus your maister All stories testifie that the difference betweene the Easterne and the Westerne Churches about Images began in the former ages and that though they continued some few yeares after the yeare 800 yet there was no talke of that matter for diuerse yeares before Pope Ioanes dayes Yet I am willing to heare you speake on Wherefore tell me what store of learned men that age brought out PAP Great store but it were too long to reckon them PROT. It may be so Yet you must know that they went for learned men in that age who were but bare Grammarians And therefore were they neuer so many Pope Ioanes acts might passe vnwritten PAP Yea but I would gladly know of you what Dukes what Princes what Kings what Emperours this Ioane inaugured and crowned what Embassadors she entertained what honors she bestowed vpon any persons PROT. Indeed you pose me now especially in that which concerns the inauguring and crowning of Dukes and Princes and Kings and Emperour For I remember none inaugured or crowned by her PAP I thought so And therefore you do well to confesseâ—it I trust at length you will also confesse that there was no Pope Ioane PROT. Why I pray you did euery Pope inaugure and crowne either Dukes or Princes or Kings or Emperors PAP Nay I say not so But in that age the Emperours themselues had such a reuerend opinion of the Romane Popes that they would not take vpon them to reigne except they gaue them their consent and crowned them PROT. How proue you that PAP By this that Adrian the first baptized the two sonnes of Charles the great and after that annoynted them kings PROT. This proues not your purpose for this fell out in the yeare 781 as Baronius notes and not in that age wherin Pope Ioane liued But do you thinke that euery Pope in that age inaugured some Dukes or Princes or Kings or Emperours I would gladly know of you what Duke or Prince or King or Emperour was inaugured or crowned by Pope Eugenius the 2 who sate in the yeare 824 or by Pope Valentinus who sate in the yeare 827 or by Pope Gregory the 4. who succeeded Valentinus or by Pope Sergius the second who fate in the yeare 844. or by Pope Leo the 4 who sate in the yeare 847. I am sure neuer a one of these crowned any Emperour And I remember not that any one of these annoynted any Duke or King saue Leo the 4 who annoynted Alfred the yongest sonne of Athelwulfus king of England Which furthered him nothing to the attaining of the kingdome For till the death of his three elder brethren for all the Popes annoynting him he liued like a subiect he liued not like a king Wherefore to put you in mind of the maine point though Pope Ioane inaugured or crowned no such persons as you speake of yet you cannot conclude therupon Ergo there was no Pope Ioane PAP But if she bestowed no honors vpon any persons if she made no Bishops if she gaue no Bishoprickes it is more then probable there was neuer any such PROT. Oh but we reade that contulit sacros ordines promouit Episcopos ministrauit Sacramenta caeteraque Romanorum Pontificum exercuit munera she gaue orders she made Bishops she administred the Sacraments and she performed all other offices belonging vnto the Papacie PAP Where reade you that I warrant you you had it out of Bale of whom I wish you to see at your leasure what Florimondus censure is PROT. Iohn Bale for ought I know is farre honester man then Florimondus And to tell you truth if Florimondus raile vpon him I shall haue the better opinion of him For as Tertullian perswaded himselfe that whosoeuer knew Nero would easily beleeue Christianity
were good because it was disliked by Nero so I perswade my selfe that whosoeuer knowes Florimondus he will the rather be well perswaded of Iohn Bale because he is reuiled by Florimondus But yet I would haue you know I read not this in Bale only but in Cornelius Agrippa a man much commended by Leo the 10. and in a booke of his solemnly priuiledged by Charles the 5. PAP Well sir sith these reasons preuaile not with you I will come a step or two nearer you And first to proue your storie a fabulous fiction I argue thus If the report of Pope Ioane be not afabulous fiction then Nicolas the first Pope of that name who at the time of her election was a Cardinall gaue her a voice and so consented to her election But it is not credible that Nicolas gaue her a voice and consented to her election Ergo. PROT. First I denie that Nicolas was a Cardinall at the time of Pope Ioanes election For he was made Subdeacon by Sergius the second and Deacon by Leo the fourth In which order he continued till the death of Benedict the 3 who sate after Ioane Secondly I denie we are bound to beleeue that he gaue Pope Ioane his voice though we should grant he was a Cardinall For it was neuer required that all the Cardinals should giue consent to any Popes election But principally I denie your minor proposition viz. that it is not credible Nicolas gaue her his voice and consented to her election And how can you proue it PAP If Nicolas had giuen her a voice and consented to her election then could he not honestly haue reproued Photius Patriarke of Constantinople for that he suffered himself of a meere lay-man to be made a Patriarke Neither could he iustly haue reproued Michael the Emperour for that he gaue his consent to Photius ordination and election But no doubt he reproued them both honestly and iustly Ergo he neuer gaue Pope Ioane his voice he neuer consented to her election PROT. Why might not he without note of dishonestie reproue Photius and the Emperour for their dealing though he himselfe had a hand in Pope Ioanes election PAP Because he should haue bene guiltie of the same fault if not of a greater for a woman you know is not capable of holy orders PROT. Oh is that it As though there were not a maine difference betweene Nicolas his fact to suppose he did it and the fact of Photius and the Emperour Photius and the Emperour did that wittingly and willingly which Nicolas reproues in them Nicolas chose a woman Pope vnwittingly It was with Nicolas in all likelihood at the election of Pope Ioane as it was with the 200 of Ierusalem who were called by Absalon to Hebron of whom the Scriptures witnes that they went in their simplicitie knowing nothing Now ignorance inuincible ignorance such as this was excuseth though not from all fault yet from so great fault Wherefore you must come nearer me yet if you meane to driue me from my opinion PAP Haue at you then and that with a golden argument such as can neuer be answered and this is it About 170 yeares after this deuised election of Pope Ioane to wit vpon the yeare of Christ 1020 the Church and Patriarke of Constantinople being in some contention with Rome Pope Leo the ninth wrote a long letter to Michael the Patriarke of Constantinople reprehending certaine abuses of that Church and among other that they were said to haue promoted Eunukes to priesthood and thereby also a greater inconuenience falne out which was that a woman was crept to be Patriarke Now no doubt Leo would neuer haue durst to write thus if the Patriarke might haue returned the matter backe vpon him againe and said This was but a slanderous report falsly raised against the Church of Constantinople but that a woman indeed had bene promoted in the Romaine Church PROT. Is this your golden and vnanswerable argument Truly I am sorie for you that you haue no more skill in an argument for you presume in this that Leo would neuer obiect that against Constantinople whereof Rome it selfe might be conuinced and make that the ground of your conclusion Now that is a slabbie ground as may appeare by this that it is ordinarie with you Papists to obiect that against others whereof your selues stand most guiltie It is ordinarie with you Papists to call your enemies whores first Do not you complaine with open mouthes of vs Ministers for want of continencie and yet is it not well knowne that your priests and monkes like fed horses haue neighed after their neighbours wiues and your Nunnes haue opened their feete to vse the Prophets phrase when he speaketh of such like light skirts to euery one that passed by and haue multiplied their whoredomes Taceo de fornicationibus adulterijs à quibus qui alieni sunt probro caeteris ac ludibrio esse solent Spadonesque aut Sodomitae appellantur saith Nicolas Clemangis speaking of your priests I say nought of your priests fornications and adulteries from which crimes if any man be free he is made a laughing stocke to the rest and either called an Eunuke or a Sodomite Laici vsque adeò persuasum habent nullos coelibes esse vt in plerisque parochijs non aliter velint presbyterum tolerare nisi concubinam habeat quo vel sic suis sit consultum vxoribus quae ne sic quidem vsquequaque sunt extrapericulum saith the same man The lay people are so conceited of the incontinencie of all priests that willingly they would not haue a parish priest vnlesse he haue a whore of his owne that so they might keep their owne wiues And yet for all that they are scarce sure of their owne by that course Fornicantur complures Monialium cum suis Praelatis ac Monachis conuersis in Monasteriis plures parturiunt filios filias quos ab iisdem praelatis Monachis conuersis fornicarie seu ex incestuoso coitu conceperunt saith Theodoricus de Niem Secretarie to Pope Vrban the 6. going on thus Et quod miserandum randum est nonnullae ex huiusmodi Monialibus aliquos foetus earum mortificant infantes in lucem editos trucidant c. Many Nunnes commit fornication with Bishops and Monkes and Conuerts and are deliuered of sonnes and daughters within their Monasteries which were got by those persons fornicatorlike if not incestuously And which is most pitifull very many of these Nunnes kill with saberdisauces the fruite in their wombes many kill them after they be borne Quid obsecro aliud sunt hoc tempore puellarum Monasteria nisi quaedam Veneris execranda prostibula lasciuorum impudicorum inuenum ad libidines explendas receptacula vt idem sit hodie puellam velare quod publicè ad scortandum exponere saith Clemangis aboue
set both the Church and common wealth on fire who hired a bad fellow to tumble downe great stones from the battlements of a Church vpon the Emperours head to squeaze him in peeces whilst he was at his prayers who cast the Sacrament into the fire who ordinarily carried about him a coniuring booke who shreudly bebumd his predecessour Alexander who wrested the Scriptures to couer his leudnesse who at his death confessed that the diuell set him on worke to prouoke God to wrath against the world Why might not she sit there as well as Iohn the 23 who was fitter for the campe then for the Church for profane things then for the seruice of God as knowing no faith no religion at all who taught againe and againe and maintained it before many of good place That there was no life after this but that it was with men as with beasts Who in a word liued so scandalously that cōmonly he was called by them who knew him a plaine diuell incarnate Why might not she sit there as well as Iohn the twelfth who made Deacons in a stable who made a boy of ten yeares old a Bishop who made the Lateran a plaine stewes who drunke to the diuell who when he was at dice made his prayers vnto Iupiter and Venus and to such Idolatrous Gods of the heathen Who at length was slaine euen by the diuell himselfe while he was committing adulterie as before I noted If you cannot deny but God hath suffred these and many as euill as any of these except the last to occupie S. Peters roome you may well wonder with Antoninus at the storie of Pope Ioane and say Oh the depth of the wisedome of God how incredible be his iudgements c. But you haue no cause in this respect to denie it you haue no cause to cast it off as a fable But giue me leaue to aske you a question How should this tale of Pope Ioane arise if there was not such a Pope was there euer such a smoake and no fire such a report and no probabilitie PAP No indeed Great lies arise alwaies out of some truth And so did this For Iohn the twelfth to confesse a truth was a wenching fellow and among other wenches which he kept there was one called Ioane who was all in all with him and ruled the roast Now the people perceiuing what hand she had ouer him termed her Pope and despised him Whereupon the Churches enemies tooke occasion to slander the Church as though the Church had indeed had a woman Pope PROT. This is one of Florimondus reasons is it not PAP Yes He mentions this and likes indifferently well of it But he mentions it as out of Onuphrius Wherefore take you it rather as Onuphrius answer to your question then as Florimondus answer PROT. Content prouided that you tell me how Onuphrius proues that Iohn the 12. had such a maisterfull whore called Ioane PAP Onuphrius proues that out of Luitprandus Ticinēsis a writer of that age For he witnesseth as Onuphrius saith and Florimondus beleeues that Iohn the twelfth had 3. famous whores of whom the fairest and therefore the best beloued was called Ioane PROT. Luitprandus in the place cited by Onuphrius witnesseth that Iohn the 12. kept one famous whore whom he called Raynera whom he made gouernor of many cities and on whom be bestowed many golden crosses and chalices belonging to S. Peter In like manner he witnesseth that he kept another called Stephana and that he lay with married wiues with widowes with maides who came to visite the Apostolicall Churches And withall he witnesseth that he kept a third called Anna who was a widow and her neece making the pallace of Lateran no better then a baudie house But he no where names any Ioane on whom that worthy head of your Church Iohn the 12. doted Onuphrius I suppose mistook Ioanna for Anna and Florimondus iustified the prouerbe A foole beleeueth euery thing Haue you not another answer to second this PAP Yes I haue two or three besides this PROT. That 's well And what is the first of them I pray you PAP This Iohn the ninth was made Bishop of Bonony and afterwards Archbishop of Rauenna and at last Pope of Rome by the meanes of one Theodora a famous whore who swayed all matters at Rome in those daies Now the people perceiuing that this Theodora could turne this Iohn which way she would and leade him whither she list they held him worthier the name of a woman then of a man and therefore called him Ioane and not Iohn Whereupon arose the report of a Ioane Pope PROT. And who I pray you is the father of this answer PAP Iohannes Auentinus who by reason he was a Germaine borne knew best no doubt the originall of this fable as Florimondus sheweth PROT. Then Florimondus beleeues this too PAP He thinkes it verie probable PROT. But so did not his countryman Genebrard For Auentinus lib. 4. Annalium fabellam esse asserit à Theodora nobili scorto ortam saith Genebrard Ego vero è recentioribus adulatoribus in Romanae sedis odium c. That is Auentinus holdeth that this tale arose by reason of a noble whore called Theodora But I thinke some latter clawbacks of the Emperors deuised it to discredit the papal seate Thus Genebrard And is not Genebrards no as good as Florimondus yea especially sith Genebrard spent vpon his Chronicles ten whole yeares whereas Florimondus by reason of his Clients can spare no time for such studies PAP Genebrard was a worthy man I know But I respect no mans person wherefore giue me a reason why you dislike this conceit of Auentinus approued by Florimondus PROT. I will Yet first I would haue you know that though I grant that Iohn who was first B. of Bonony then of Rauenna and lastly of Rome came to those Bishopricks by the meanes of Theodora a famous whore in respect whereof your Cardinall historiographer makes question whether he was a Pope or no and termes him sometimes Pseudopontifex Antipapa a false Pope and Antipope sometimes intrusor detentor iniustus Apostolicae sedis an intruder and an vsurper of the Apostolicall chaire yet I denie that this was Iohn the ninth for he was Iohn the tenth Iohn the ninth came by good meanes to the Papacie as your Cardinall saith He caried himselfe honestly in it and died naturally but so did not this This confirmed a child vnder fiue yeares old in the Archbishopricke of Rhemes at which fact Baronius stands agast Then this turpior nullus cuius sicut ingressus in Cathedram Petri infamissimus ita exitus nefandissimus There was neuer a filthier fellow then this This entred with infamie and died fearefully This was stifled with a pillow by the procurement of one as famous for whoredome as
Theodora who preferred him PAP This of whom Florimondus speakes was stifled with a pillow by Theodoraes owne daughter But it seemes you wrong her in her good name For she caused him to be stifled because she could not brooke his filthy kind of life with her mother as Florimondus notes PROT. Florimondus will neuer be good The daughter disliked not her mothers and the Popes course of life at all She her selfe played the whore with Sergius one of your Popes and had by him Iohn the 11. She married her husbands brother and liued with him in incest The onely cause why she procured him to be stifled was her enuie to one Peter the Popes brother as Baronius proueth out of Luitprandus PAP But in good earnest was not this Iohn Iohn the ninth Florimondus againe and againe cals him Iohn the ninth And me thinkes he should not mistake him so often PROT. In earnest this was not Iohn the 9. Florimondus was deceiued PAP Why but Benedict the 4. succeeded Iohn the 9. did he not PROT. Yes that is true But Benedict the 4. succeeded not this Iohn Iohn the 11. as Luitprandus writes or rather Leo the 6 as others write succeeded this Iohn PAP Florimondus writes that Benedict the 4. succeeded this Iohn and obserues withall a knacke of knauerie in those who report this story in that they fathered this tale vpon a Iohn whom a Benedict succeeded PROT. Obserue you then a knacke of foalerie or knauerie or rather foolish knauerie in Florimondus For I tell you once againe that Benedict the 4. succeeded not this Iohn all histories are against it But suppose he was Iohn the 9. If his loose cariage of himselfe with Theodora gaue occasion of the report of a woman Pope why was it not recorded as hapning in his time but aboue fortie yeares before his time Iohn the 9. was made Pope in the yeare 901 yet this storie is recorded as hapning about the yeare 854. PAP That came to passe by the subtiltie of the reporters For about the yeare 800. the Empresse who in a manner ruled all the world was called Theodora Now these trifling tale-tellers hearing of a Pope Ioane in Theodoraes time chopt it into the time of Theodora the Empresse who liued about thirtie yeares before the harlot Theodora PROT. This would rather argue simplicitie then subtiltie in the reporters For cui bono whether it happened in the one or in the other Theodoraes time But it carries no colour of truth with it For Theodora the Empresse neuer caried any sway in Rome at all At Constantinople for a while in the time of her sonnes minoritie she could do something but in Pope Ioanes time she was turned out of office at Constantinople She was deposed from her regencie and thrust into a Monasterie where she was kept till her death What is one of your other answers PAP My third answer to your maine question is that perhaps this tale arose from Iohn the 8. For Iohn the 8. dealt not like a man in the case of Photius Patriarke of Constant inople but sheâ—pishly and like a woman For Iohn the 8 receiued Photius into communion who was excommunicated by his predecessors Iohn the 8. suffered himselfe to be ouercome by halfe a man Whereupon in reproach he was called non Papa sed Papissa And vpon that reprochfull speech came this tale of a woman Pope PROT. Who deuised vs this answer I pray you PAP This is Baronius answer PROT. Baronius answer Is that possible Is not Baronius one of them who holds that the rumour of the Church of Constantinoples ouersight in suffering a woman to creep in to be Patriarke occasioned this tale against Rome PAP Yes marry is he For hauing set downe Pope Leo his words touching that rumour Quae ita erant fama vulgata de Ecclesia Constantinopolitana conuersa in Romanam Ecclesiam à schismaticis eam odio prosequentibus calumnijs proscindentibus quis non intelligat saith Baronius that is Who seeth not that what was reported of Constantinople the same was turned by schismatickes as spoken against Rome PROT. And with what honestie can he say both N. D. who holds of this later opinion professeth that it seemeth most certaine that in Pope Leo his time viz. 1020 there was not so much as any rumour or mention of any woman Pope that euer had bene in the Romane Church So doth Baronius himselfe for verily saith he if there had bene but some flying tale of any such accident at Rome in former dayes Pope Leo should first haue cleared it before he had charged the Church of Constantinople with the like Was there not so much as a flying report of a woman Pope before Leo the 9 his time in Baronius opinion How then did Iohn the 8. occasion such a report who liued an 140 yeares before Leo But let Baronius go with this scape What reason haue you to thinke that the rumour of Constantinople might occasion this tale against Rome PAP Good reason For euery man knowes that Constantinople was called New Rome and Rome simply Now a man might easily be deceiued in supposing that to be done in Rome in Italy which was reported to be done in Rome but in Rome in Grecia PROT. That Constantinople was called New Rome I easily yeeld vnto you But that it was at any time called simply Rome that your Florimondus is not able to make good That 's his owne fancie and in deliuering it he bewrayes his owne folly Yet to suppose it true why did not the relators of it set it downe as hapning in Leo his time but 240 yeares before if so be it was occasioned by the report that went of Constantinople in Leo his daies If it had thence begun it should haue bene registred as then hapning PAP Well suppose it were true what gaine you by it or what is the Church preiudiced by her If Pope Ioane had bene she had not preiudiced the Church saith N. D. PROT. But she had For if she was Pope then it will follow thereon necessarily that the Church according to your learning once hopt headlesse For the Church in your learning is defined to be a companie of Christian men professing one faith vnder one head to wit the Pope But she how euer she caried the name of Pope was no Pope For a woman is not capable of holy orders A woman cannot play the Pope Ergo all the time of Pope Ioane the Church hopt headlesse PAP Indeed the only inconuenience of such a case is as N. D. confesseth that the Church should lacke a true head for the time But that is not so great a matter for so she doth when any Pope dieth till another be chosen PROT. What is that you say Doth the Church hop headlesse when one Pope dieth till another be chosen Now alas what a pitifull case is the Church in
then Since Christs time there haue bene aboue 240 Popes And therefore by your saying the Church hath bene headlesse aboue 240 times Yea and sometimes betweene the death of one Pope and the choosing of another there haue passed many dayes many moneths some yeares As for example after Cletus the Bishopricke of Rome was voide 20. daies after Clemens 22. After Alexander the first 25. After Pelagius the first 3 moneths and odde daies After Pelagius the second 6. moneths odde daies After Iohn the third 10. moneths and oddâ— daies After Sabinian 11. moneths and odde daies After Honorius the first one yeare and more After Clemens the fourth two yeares and more After Marcellinus 7. yeares and more After Nicolas the 1. as some say 8. yeares and more And after Fâ—lix sometimes the Duke of Sauoy S. Peters chaire stood empty 10. yeares saith Bodin Wherupon will follow that the Church hath often and long together bene headlesse But that is not so great a matter you say Is it not Whence I pray you should the Church haue her wit when she is bereaued of her head The saying is Great head litle wit But without question no head no wit When the Church is headlesse she is witlesse and by consequent helples And therefore I take it you haue good cause to beware that you grant nothing whereon it may be concluded That your Church was once headlesse PAP But did not Saint Austin hold opinion vpon supposition of a like case that the Church of Christ should not be preiudicated Did not he hauing recited vp the Popes of Rome from Christ to his daies make this demand what if any Iudas or traytour had entred among these or bene chosen by error of men and answereth presently Nihil praeiudicaret Ecclesiae innocentibus Christianis PROT. Yes But considering the body of your doctrine you may not answer so nor think so For you hold that your Pope is head of the Church and that it is necessarie vnto saluation to acknowledge him the head but so did not S. Austin You hold that in a true Church one Bishop must lawfully succeed another or all is dasht but so did not Saint Austin For he puts the case that some traitor subrepsisset that is had come in vnorderly into the Bishop of Romes Seate and yet resolues that that was not preiudiciall to Gods Church Conforme your selues in these two points of the Popes headship and succession to Saint Austins iudgement and then you may better say in this case of Pope Ioane that which Austine said in the case proposed That she had not preiudicated the Church of Christ PAP We make more reckoning of Saint Austin then you do But I will not stand wrangling vpon his meaning now Because whatsoeuer inconuenience can be imagined in this case is more against you then vs. For your Church admitteth for lawfull and supreme head thereof either man or woman which our Church doth not PROT. Our Church admitteth neither man nor woman for lawfull and supreme head of the Catholicke Church as yours doth Our Church teacheth that Christ onely is the head thereof Our Church admitteth neither man nor woman for lawfull and supreme head of a particular Church For our Church acknowledgeth the king supreme gouernor only not supreme head and so she stiled Queene Elizabeth in her time Though if we giue our Princes more yet the inconueniences against vs are not like the inconueniences against you because the next in blood is to succeed with vs the greatest Symonist who can make his faction strongest is to succeed with you PAP What other inconuenience followes vpon this accident to suppose it true PROT. If it be true there was such a Pope your Church must be discarded as no true Church For thus I argue That is no true Church which cannot giue in plaine authenticall writing the lawfull orderly entire without any breach and sound notorious succession of Bishops But your Church if Ioane was Pope cannot giue in plaine authenticall writing the lawfull orderly entire without any breach and sound notorius succession of Bishops For by reason of her Benedict the third could not orderly succeed Leo the fourth She put in a caueat or rather was of her selfe a barre to his successioÌ„ By her a breach was made in the rank of your Popes She no foole but a whore marred your play PAP No no. For all that you can rightly gather vpon her Popedome is That the Popes seate stood empty of a lawfull Pastor for the space of two yeares and a few odde moneths Now so it did often by reason of the differences among the Electors as you your selfe shewed And yet no man durst say nor could truly say that succession failed as Baronius notes PROT. As Baronius notes If Baronius may be iudge there is nothing that can marre your succession neither vacancie nor entrance in by the window Whether the chaire be emptie or full by irrepsion or by vsurpation it is all one to Baronius Baronius will not giue ouer his plea of succession For though he not without griefe confesseth that many vgly monsters haue sate in S. Peters chaire though he confesseth that many Apostataes rather then Apostolicall persons haue occupied that roome though he confesseth that there haue bene many Popes which came irregularly to the Papacy and serued for no other purpose then ciphers in Arithmetike to make vp the number yet he holdeth their succession sound Though Baronius writes that Boniface the 6. who got possession of S. Peters chaire and kept it 15. daies was a wicked fellow and not worthy to be reckoned among Popes in as much as he was condemned by a Councell held at Rome Though he write that Stephen the 7 such another as Boniface the 6 or rather worse played at thrust out rotten with Boniface the 6 and kept the Papacy 5. yeares Though he write that Pope Christopher shuffled Leo the 5. out and by violence installed himselfe and kept it 7. moneths and that Sergius at the 7. moneths end shuffled Christopher out shearing him a Monke and keeping it to himselfe as some say seuen yeares as Baronius himselfe saith three yeares yet all this shuffling in Baronius opinion doth nothing staine succession Yea though he cannot deny that Boniface the seuenth who sate as Pope one yeare and one moneth was a wicked varlet a plaine tyrant a sauage beast an vsurper one that had no good propertie of a Pope Though he cannot deny but that Leo the eight who was a schismaticke and an intruder and an Antipope b in his opinion kept the place almost two yeares Though he cannot deny but that Iohn the twelfth who was but like a Pope in a play kept it nine yeares and Iohn the 11 the bastardly brat of Sergius aboue named who came to it by euill meanes and managed