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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A77724	A publick disputation sundry dayes at Killingworth in Warwick-shire, betwixt John Bryan, doctor in divinity (minister at Coventry) and John Onley, pastor of a church at Lawford. Upon this question, whether the parishes of this nation generally be true churches. Wherin are nine arguments alleged in proof of the affirmative of the question, with the answer of I. O. thereunto, together with Doctor B. Reply. Also an addition of ten arguments more in further proof of the question, with an answer adjoyned in disproof thereof. Published by both their consents, as appears by the ensuing epistles.	Bryan, John, d. 1676.; Onley, John.	1655 (1655)	Wing B5245; Thomason E823_9; ESTC R207672	61,370	75

recovery the Lord calls not out but to reform nay if they were not past recovery why did you come out from them seeing you lay such blame upon others for separating from you because you have some gudly and so there was in Rome from whence it appears that you could not keep that constitution you had before if you had any therefore that constitution that you had from them which you still retain without any essential difference evidenced that if you be a true Church Rome is too Parishes were the first seats of Popery after of Prelacy and now you endeavor to take them up under the same Notion First they baptized all this Nation Infants and there laid the foundation making all Christians as they called them and then by the Laws of Civil Policy conveniency of situation c. they divided this Nation into so many Parishes and counted all Members living within the precincts bounds and liberties of such a place of such a Church though in works they denyed God They came first in by Honorius Bishop of Canterbury saith Mr. Saltmarsh bringing the learned Mr. Selden for proof in his book De decimis but how ever it is evident that there was never such a thing as Parish heard of in all the word of God they never were of Apostolical constitution there was never such a thing heard of in all the Word of God that ever a man should be accompted a member of this Society rather then of that meerly from liberties of place whereby it appears they were not of Divine institution but humane Lastly I deny that to be the means appointed in the word of God in the days of the Gospel for gathering of Churches which you say yours were gathered by viz. the preaching of the Gospel and the command of the Magistrate That is the way appointed and approved of by God that the Apostles went in when they constiruted Churches but the way that they went was by the preaching of the Gospel only without the command of the Civil Magistrate ergo c. The Major is undeniable the Minor is proved Asts ● 41. and all the Churches that the Apostles constituted were so constituted 2. If the preaching of the Gospel and the command of the Magistrate are to go together to the constitution of a Church then where men are wrought upon by the Gospel they must stay till the Magistrate commands before they joyn to the Church for what God hath joyned together no man ought to part but they ought not to do so for they may joyne themselves the same day of their conversion if there be no Magistrate Acts 2. 41. therefore these two are not to go together Nay how if there should be no Christain Magistrate to command it is possible must a man stay till there be one before he be joyned to the Church if he believe How if there be none while he lives what then If you say as in our publike Dispute you did when I urged the Apostolical constitution that then there was no Magistrate this is a plain grant then that you were not gathered as they were and I desire you to shew your Scripture to prove that then the preaching of the Gospel was sufficient then and after the power of the Magistrate is to be jo●ned with it Where hath Christ shewed you this Is not the Gospel as well able to effect its own ends now as it was then I was as easie for God to have turned the hearts of Magistrates then had the Aposties wanted their power as since Are you true Ministers of Christ powerfully enabled from him ro dispence his Gospel it will bring as many as be fit matter for the Church you need not make your supplement from the Word to the Sword It is the commanding power of Love that is to force into the Church of Christ and all that are so wrought upon need not to be forced they are willing in the day of the Lords power and to force those into the Church that are not willing is a ready way to fill the Church with Hypocrites and to force by compulsion into the Church is directly to contradict Christs order in his Testament and to make up a Church of such matter as all Gods people ought to flie from If you say it is not constitution you apply it to but recalling I answer it is not recalling that can serve your turn for you have never been called as you stand or if you had it was lost and a new foundation to be begun as above or thirdly If it was not the case is the same no power of the Magistrate though an Ordinance of God●n●●● place is to be exercised in reforming Gospel Churches see Rev. 2 4 5 ● 1. 1 2 3 4 18 c. See what the Lord councels these backslided people too to repent and turn to their first love and take he Lords Councel while he offered it or else he would come upon them not with the power of the Magistrate to beat them to him contrary to their wills but with the power of his Justice to take away that means of grace he had afforded them to your places of Scripture I answer thus we are not under Moses but Christ we are to follow those examples in this case that the Apostles and God himself in the New Testament hath left us Consider Matth. 17 5. Heb. 1. 1. Acts 3. 22 23. Thus these Arguments being answered which should be as the foundation to bear up all the rest and being found too light all the rest were they 500. of them will melt away like Snow before the Sun Your inanimadversions is the reason why you see no difference between Reply this and the former Argument that was taken from the internal essential causes this from the external instrumentally efficient which might have been spared but for your importunate crying out Dr. B against our first gathering which I affirm to have been out of Heathenism only by preaching the gospel and out of Popery by that and the Magistrates assistance You desire to see proved that ever these 8432. Parishes were gathered by the preaching of the Gospel into a Church you may see sufficient to give any reasonable man satisfaction in the Answer of the Elders of New England to which I formerly referd you though their testimony sway not with you their intercited reasons may The ninth Question runs thus Whether do you hold all the most of our Parish Assimblies in Old England to be true visible Churches of Christ with which you may lawfully joyn in every part of Gods true Worship c. They answer first that they doubt not but of ancient time there have been many true Churches in England consisting of right matter and compacted and united together by the right form of an holy Covenant The Gospel was brought hither in the Apostles times or within a little while after Mr. Fox his reports out of Guildas Te tullian and Nicephorus

Psal 63. 1 2. You deny my Minor with the same limitation as you granted the Major God dwels not you say in the Parishes of this Nation as a Church I will to gratify and if it be possible to convince you make good that Christ dwels in the Parishes of this Nation as a Church by those three Reasons evidencing his presence amongst us For the fortifying whereof I was sparing in bringing Scripture-proof or farther reason not because I had not store of both but because I judged it needless to light a Candle to the Sun but seeing you tax me for bare Asserting you shall see me strongly Confirming each of the Reasons taking in your own restriction First I prove the Faithfull Constant Preaching of the Word to be a note of Christs presence with a people as a Church Deus 4. 7 8. So nigh unto them this speciall neerness of God is proved because they had the Law set before them i. e. fixed among them Psal 147. 19 20. By Word he means his will revealed in the Scriptures given to his Church as a most precious and peculiar treasure Zech. 8. 23. The reason why the Gentiles should joyn themselves to the Jews is because the Word was with them we have heard by your Preaching this was the great and glorious prerogative of the Jews which afterward they lost and as soon as they lost it ceased to be a Church Acts 13. 46. the Apostle witnesseth this to be the greatest privilege the Jews had Rom. 3. 1 2. If this be a peculiar privilege to the Church of God to have a standing fixed preaching of the Word among them and if no People in the world can be named that had this ordinance of preaching which were not Gods Church then this is a sure sign Secondly it appears that his working saving Grace by this Ordinance is as a sure sign 1 Cor. 14. 24 25. he will report that God is in you as a Church of a truth John 4. 22. Christ proves the Jewes to be a true Church Because Salvation might be had there out of the Church there is no salvation ordinarily If you can shew that Christ is present to Convert c. in any Societie where his word is faithfully and constantly Preached that is not his Church this Reason shall stand for invalid Thirdly the meeting mentioned Matth. 18. you deny not to be a Church-meeting therefore where a Societie meet to worship God by Prayer as you expound it or for the Administration of Church Censures as the place carries it there Christ is present as his Church Now that the Word is faithfully and constantly Preached in our Assemblyes and that Christ Converts c. by our Preaching and that our People meet together to pray in his Name is manifest to all the world that we have idle ignorant Ministers in many Congregations and a great multitude that want the power of Godliness among us c. is acknowledged but it s well known as bad of both sorts were in the Church of the Jewes and in the Apostolicall Churches which notwithstanding remained true Churches while he continued his presence and they met and joyned in his true worship till God gave them a bill of divorce and withdrew his presence and they cast off Gods true worship through obstinacie Those Assemblies that are built upon the Foundation of the Arg. 5. Prophets and Apostles are true Churches Ephes 2. 19 20. But ours are so built for they have the whole Doctrine of the Old Dr. B. and New Testament for the infallible and immoveable ground of their Faith whereby they subsist in Church-Communion I deny you Minor What you mean by these words they have Answ J. O. the whole Doctrine c. is doubtfull if by having of it you mean Christ hath left this Old and New Testament in the world for the immoveable ground of mens Faith that 's true but nothing to the purpose for if so it 's left to all men and many men may also beleeve it to be so and yet be so far from being built upon it as they walk and build directly from it If you mean that they have it in the practise of it so as they practically build upon it that 's false for such Persons are built upon it as the Apostle holds out in that Chapter such who were dead but now alive saved by Grace such who were made to sit in heavenly places in Christ Now the greater part of the men in your Parishes are such as were never spiritually alive lying in their sins still unquickned therefore they are not built upon that Foundation practically When I say our Assemblies are built upon Propheticall and Apostolicall Reply Doctrine I mean there is no other Doctrine taught or own'd with us but what hath warrant from the Old and New Testament Dr. B. if there be shew it now that hence it followes we are therefore Gods true Church is apparent from the Apostles Scope proving the Ephesians to be the Houshold of God because they were so built for that by building is meant Owning and Confessing the truth I prove from that of our Saviour Mat. 16. 18. nor can you shew any Society Confessing the whole truth of God that was not a true Church The want of Practise which you allege in the greatest part of our Members weakens not at all the force of the Argument for the very same is taxed by our Saviour in the Church of Sardis Rev. 3. 1. Thou hast a name to live and art dead the generalitie of the members of that Church were voyd o● Grace and ungodly men and yet Christ owns it for his Church in the beginning of that verse and how far the Church of Corinth and other Gospell Churches were from being built practically in your sense you have heard sufficiently and yet blessed be God we have in our Parochiall Churches a competent number of practicall Christians that walk exactly according to the rule of the Gospell for whose sakes if you had the Spirit of Christ you would I suppose acknowlege our whole Societies to be his visible Churches That Church that is the pillar and ground of truth is the true Arg. 6. Church 1 Tim. 3. 15. but so is the Church of England in respect of the profession and maintenance of true Religion which it both Dr. B. supporteth as a Pillar and maketh it openly known to others defending it against all Errors Contradictions and Corruptions whatsoever Revel 2. 13. You subtilly alter the termes of the question that the folly of your Argument may not appear instead of these words the Parishes of this Nation you say the Church of England which you ought not to have done the Argument from these words if it include the Question must proceed thus That Church which is the Pillar and ground of Truth is a true Church but so are the Parishes of this Nation in their maintaining and professing true Religion supporting

him that was none himself how the Bishops could confer that power to you that they never had themselves is a mystery you hold that Ordination is Essential to Preaching now except you be able to prove your personal succession of ministry from the Apostles and that they do lineally succeed without interruption your Ordination is false for except there be a personal succession uninterrupted by heresy or whatsoever else may nullify a Ministers calling from the Apostles time to this present for if there be but one who when he ordained was no Minister or not ordained all that were ordained by him are no Ministers if Ordination be essential now if there should be a personal succession this drawes with it a perpetual visibility of a Church which when and where it is to be found in the dark times of Popery I desire to see for though there were Godly men yet not a visible Church with a right-ordained and ordaining Ministry Secondly were it granted that all the Bishops were true Ministers Lineal succession c. That as you were ordained I deny that you were right set in those Parishes if they were Churches as they are not according to Eph. 4. for First he must be enabled with abilities from God for that work Ephes 4. 8. Rom. 12. 6. 1 Cor. 12 11. Together with Grace to walk suitably thereunto 1 Tim. 3. 23. tit 1 6 7 8. Secondly being thus fitted with abilities the Church that is in want of Officers seeing such Men fit for the work are to Elect such Men for the Service they are enabled to perform Acts 14. 23. They ordained i. e. they Elected and Chose so the word ordained is put where the Scripture speaks expresly of Chusing Acts 1. 22. So saith one of your own Divines they made them by voices the matter went to suffrages which could not be betwixt Paul and Barnabas Election by most voices or lifting up of hands in token of a suffrage had place only amongst a multitude assembled together so Acts 1. 23. They the Church appointed two and although the Lord shewed by lot which of the two yet it was the Churches Act to reduce it to two so Acts 6. 5. The Argument will hold good from the less to the greater if the Church must chuse a Deacon in the time the Apostles were present and an inferior Officer much more a Pastor that they were so highly concern'd in and it is contrary to all reason that the Church should be debar'd of the choice of her own Officers after which Ordination by Imposition of hands Acts 6. 6. onely to signify the setting apart of that Man to that which he is chosen to In the Apostles time the Holy Ghost was given by it but now as the Miracle so the Mystery is ceased and if it be used to that end still it is false the end being ceased Now you were set in these Parishes by the Bishops clean contrary like Men minding directly to oppose Christ in all they did for first when Men proceeded to such degrees in the Universities they made them Ministers in that they had attained to so much literature and not only in regard of their having received abilities from God with grace to walk up thereunto which only ought to be the ground upon which they ought to be judged fit for that work as appeareth from hence in that they ordained many that were ignorant sots in the knowledge of the things of God that with all their wit could not tell how to make a Sermon in their way of sermon making except they could patch up an houres talk out of others works and then come read it to the people which is no Preaching they had better bring their great books where their Sermons are made to their hands read out of them for First It would save them much paixes Secondly It would not cozen their hearers Thirdly It would not be robbery to their owner and so far have many of them been short of grace to live holy lives which is as absolutely required as gif●s 1 Tim. 3. 3. and Tit. 1. 0 7. as that experience shewes their works are abominable Secondly as they went upon a wrong ground so in a wrong manner For first they made them Ministers before they had a flock to Minister to which was ridiculous seeing that Pastor and Flock are Relates the one gives being and the Essential Constituting Cause to the other and if it be foolish to say a Man may be a father and have had no child a busband and no wife it is also as foolish to say a Man a Minister a Pastor without a flock the like reason in both So election by the Church which is to give the very being to a Pastor in relation to the Office he is to perform so as without which he may not perform the work this is altogether left out and a violent intrusion by the help of the Patron a thing unheard-of in Gods Word is come in its stead and Ordination which is to be a solemn setting and Confirming of such a Man into that work he is chosen being the last this is made first and Christs order directly changed First from hence it appeares that the Ministers of this Nation are not rightly set into the Office of the Ministery and so their Churches no true Churches and what help your other two Reasons will afford comes now to examination You say by their abilities 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and then by Gods blessing on their endeavors I answer if these be particulars to wit of some of the Ministers of these Parishes they include not the Question which is of all generally but if generally all the Ministers of these Parishes of whom the Question is I deny that they are generally able to divide the Word of Truth as our Translations render it for if they be you did very ill to call them dumb dogs greedy dogs as you did they are so far from rightly dividing the Word of Truth as that the Word of Truth is a Mystery to them as daily experience sheweth and what this Exhortation of Paul to Timothy study to shew thy self c. Is to prove that all the Covetous Ignorant Drunken Priests of this Nation are able to do so too is a Mystery to me the like may be answered to the next what blessing is to be seen in the labours of such Men I know not where like Priest like People almost generally for where they have an Ignorant drunken Priest such commonly are the People as it is easy to instance in too many and what 's the words of Paul 2 Cor. 3. Ye are our Epistle c. to prove that there is the like effects by the Ministers of the Parishes of this Nation generally upon their hearers as was by Paul upon the Corinthians I can in no wise see and truly Sir I must tell you that I cannot but think that cause to be

Visible Church From the two ends of it neither of which you say are attained by our Peoples constant meeting c. which is untrue for first our Assemblies are hereby known from all other Societies in the world Heathenish jewish Mabometan Popish c. who joyn not together in Gods true Worship 2. The Godly of our Congregations declare themselves hereby ingaged to watch over each other and actually do so yea the whole Body come to be instructed reproved and watcht ever by their Pastors and are admonished of their duty which they yield assent unto and are convinced though the most fail in performance But let our Brethren whose cause you manage speak and they readily acknowledge that we have the same Covenant for substance which themselves have and consequently are as true Churches Read reverend Mr. Hookers survey Chap. 4. thus the People of England in their Parishes constantly hold them to the fellow ship of the People in such a place attend all the Ordinances submit thereto c. by such actions c. they declare by their practises which others by open profission an implicite Covenant preserves the true Nature of the Church because it carries the formalis ratio in it by which a Church is constituted animplicite Covenant in some cases may be fully sufficient as if it consist of such who were children to parents confederate deceased c. The like and fuller acknowledgement you shall finde of all the Elders of New England in their Treatise of Church Covenant where they give the same Reason which you so slight Quoting Mr. Parker whose words in his third Beck of Ecclesiastical policy are these Non abest ea r●alis Et substantialis quamquam Magis quam par erat implicita Coitio in foe tus eaque professio fidei substantialis quae Deo grata essentialis Ecclesiae idque visibilis huc usque sartam rectam in Anglis conservavit You see how little you have gained by undertaking anothers Cause which though you disclaim as yours in this yet you seem clearly to own in your Answer to the next Argument whichas to gratifie you who cry out sovehemently against the gathering of our Churches concluding that we are no true Churches because we cannot prove that we were at first rightly gathered whereas it is clear enough that we might be true Churches though it could not appear that we were at first rightly gathered as men may be true Christians of whose Baptism and first conversion there can no clear accempt be given and some socities may be named who were doubtless true Churches of whose first gathering nothing can be found in Scripture The Argument proceeds thus Our Churches had a right gathering both out of Heathenism and out of Popery therefore they are true Churches Argu. 3 1. Out of Heathenism we were gathered 500. years before Austin the Monk by the preaching of the Gospel and not at all Dr. B. by compulsion this is proved out of approved Antiquaries 2. Out of Popery I thus reason If the Churches of this Nation were gathered or rather recalled out of Popery into the true Religion by the means that are approved and appointed in the word of God then they were rightly gathered out of Popery But the former is true which is thus made good the means approved and appointed by God to gather or recall a back slided People are preaching and the command of the Civil Magistrate this latter is evident by sundry examples of good Kings 2 Chron. 14. 4. 15 12 13 30 34 32 33. that these were the means of recalling our people out of Popery is acknowledged by all Answ It s true I say you are no true Churches because you cannot prove you were at first rightly gathered and I say it s also Answ as true some may be true Churches of whose first gathering nothing can be found but what is this to your purpose the question I. O. is not whether they be true Churches whose first original cannot be known but whether those be true who can know and finde it and yet are unable to prove it true I question not but was it to your advantage you could quickly tell us of the first original of your Parishes To the first branch of your Argument that these 8432. Parishes of which the whole land is were gatheted by the preaching of the Gospel I desire to see proved I deny not but here might be Churches gathered but I desire to see it proved that they were gathered as now they stand a whole Nation divided into Parish Churches generally If they were thus gathered by the Preaching of the Gospel then they were called from the World after a sort from themselves and united together as one body as all the Churches in the Gospel were Now this whole Nation was never called out of the World visibly what was the World out of which they were called when they were all accounted Members And for others in other Nations they were never amongst 2. The World the lusts thereof they retained in their hearts coveteousness pride malice every evil work visibly seen in many of them 3 So far were they from being united as one Man as that they were many of them deadly enemies one to another sure if the Gospel did gather its effects would be seen To the second branch This Argument is the same with your former only you alter the term from constituting to gathering which in effect is all one for you apply it to your first gathering out of Heathenism which might be understood of constitution so that I do not well know whether it be added as a proof of the former or as an Argument of it self but to follow you in your scope First I cannot see that you have had any constitution at your coming from Popery for there was no alteration of either matter or form which are the essential constitutive principles and if you had any constitution you had it from Papists for before you had none as now you stand or if you had it could do you no good as I shall shew Popery had so deeply infected those that had been true Churches and this among the rest which was one with Rome that the name and nature of your Church was lost yea past recalling for where the Church was called the Spouse the wife the body the house the garden the Temple the Zion of Christ they come to be called A whore a mother of harlots a Babylon an habitation of Divels an hold of every foul Spirit and a cage of every unclean and hareful bird and whereas before the Church was peaceable and meek and kindly affectionate gentle c. Now they come to be a blood thitsty adulterous whore drunk with the blood of Saints for in her was found the blood of all that was slain upon the earth insomuch that the Lord cries out Come out of her my people Now we know whilst that People are in a capacity of

it as a Pillar c. Now Sir The Minor is evidently false the very naming of it is Confutation sufficient it being evident to behold that the Parishes of this Nation have always been and still are inclinable to whatsoever their Teachers and Rulers set up without ever questioning the truth of it except here and there a man which is nothing to our question it being of the Parishes generally Look upon them in the time of Popery and produce one Parish-Church much less all that opposed the power of the Pope but all inclinable to that wicked worship so in the time of Prelacy how conformable to that never once talking then of Presbytery and I believe as formerl● so now if the power of this Nation should enact that al should turn Independents they would obey without any general opposition and within this few years would as little think of Presbytery which you think to be truth now as they did then when he was Counted an Hereticke that believed not as the Church believed Which was then the scarlet-coloured whore of Rome and yet you let not to say they have been the Pillar of Truth defending it against all Errors which if true Presbytery is false in that the Parishes of this Nation have born Testimony to two contrary Religions Popery and Prelacy That Church that one time professeth Popery and another while Prelacy being variable according to the times in which she lives that Church is not the Pillar and ground of truth But the Parishes of this Nation have one while c. Ergo and for Revel 2. 13. When you have proved the Parishes of this Nation Pergamus I will Consider of it I know no advantage I should have gotten if the word Reply Dr. B. Church had been permitted to stand instead of Parishes but rather disadvantage because a National Church is as liable if not more to exception nor can I imagine how this could have hidden the folly of my Argument its folly to pick a quarrell the Church is nothing els but the Parishes or if you will that is the Mother these the daughters the Minor proposition which you deny will appear evident enough by considering the Apostles meaning of Pillar and Ground of Truth and applying it to our Assemblies both which I will do in few words The House or Church of God is so call'd in respect of the profession and maintenance of the true Religion of God which it both supporteth as a Pillar and maketh it openly known to others as Magistrates use to hang and affix their Edicts and Proclamations on pillars or other places of strength and firmness and here consequently is declared the Office and duty of the Church in holding and publishing the Truth and defending it against all Errors Contradictions and Corruptions and whatsoever Societies do this it s written upon those Societies with a Sun beam that they are the true Churches of Christ Now it s notoriously known that the Articles of Religion agreed upon Anno 1562. are published and consented to by all the See the answer of the Elders of the several Churches of New England to the ninth Question p. 26. and Church Covenant p. 40. Ministers endowed in every Congregation of this Nation with the silent consent also of the People and subscription of the hands of the chief of them wherein they do acknowledge no rule of Faith or Manners but the holy Scriptures no divine worship but to God only no Mediation nor Salvation but in Christ only no Conversion by Mans free will but by Gods free grace no Justification but by Faith no perfection nor merit of works with all other necessary and saving truths upon which the Church is grounded and built and which also it holdeth forth and maintaineth This alone abundantly evinceth that the Parishes of this Nation are the Pillar and ground of Truth Besides these truths are daily in most Congregations faithfully opened and applyed and whatsoever is contrary thereunto on the right hand or left convincingly confuted our Parishes therefore keeping Gods Records faithfully are his Registers and consequently his true Churches Your declaiming against the inclinableness of our People to alter with their Governors might have been spared well knowing it was the practice of the Church of Israel to do so and the Churches of Galatia how soon were they removed from him that called them into the Grace of Christ unto another Gospell to the admiration of the Apostle Galat. 1. 6. And therefore it needs be no marvell if our people so easily change from one Church-Goverment to another which they may do without prejudice to fundamental verity which though the Galathians overthrew yet they remained true Churches If you read the Epistle of Christ to Pergamus understandingly and compare our Church with that you will find that we are not worse and wherein any in that Church were praise-worthy for doing or suffering you may find some in ours not short of them From our practice agreeing with the practice of the Primitive Arg. 7. Dr. B. Apostolical Churches Those Societies that continue stedfast in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and in Prayer are true Churches Acts 2. 42. but so do ours Ergo. I deny your Minor and the reason why we separate from you is upon Answ J. O. that ground you have added neither Scripture nor Reason to prove your Minor but have left it destitute of all proof you could hardly have brought a Scripture in all the Bible which in every thing both in doctrine and practice makes so directly against you as this that you have brought for you For first your doctrine is contrary secondly so is your practice for doctrine first after that Peter had preacht the Lord Christ to these men it working upon their hearts ver 37. they cryed out What shall we do the doctrine of the Apostle to them ver 38. is Repent and be Baptized and so they were ver 41. they were the same day added to the Church but you both Ministers and People go directly contrary first Baptize them at three or four dayes old and so make them members of your Church and perhaps twenty or forty years after preach Repentance just contrary to the Apostles doctrine and Gods examples 1 King 6. 7. Ephes 2. 21 22. 1 Pet. 2. 5. First you take into your house unhued stones and unsquared timber and twenty or forty years after fall to squaring them for the building Now for your practice in your fellowship the powerfull operation of the Gospell of Jesus Christ after it had workt them from the world and from themselves and one into another in the unity of the Spirit as one man it is said ver 44 45. and all that believed were together had all things common and sold their possessions c. And chap. 4. 32 34 35. and the multitude of believers were of one heart and one soul neither said any of them that ought that he possessed was

only the Baptism of John verse 25. who were not Ministers in office publickly which work hath had the approbation of God by accompanying these men in this work with his holy Spirit making their preaching effectual to the conversion of Souls Therefore all who have gifts enabling them to preach publickly may by a Scripture example and the approbation of God concerning that thing The Consequence I think no man will deny that ownes the Scripture as a rule of direction for us to follow The Antecedent is evident in both branches First Acts 8. 1. they i. e. the Church were all scattered and they thus scattered went every where preaching● verse 4. which preaching was approved of by God in accompanying them in this work by his Spirit Acts 11. 21. But to this you object First that we cannot prove but that they were Officers I Answer That we can evidently first it is said they were all scattered and all thus scattered preach'd Now all men know all a Church is not Officers but to this you object The word All signifies not every one Answer true but where the Scripture sayes All except such as it excepts with what forehead dare any man say the contrary It is in effect as much as to say the Apostle said not true evident it is Philip preached Acts 8. Object Philip was an Evangelist Answ True by gift in that he brought the glad tidings of Remission of sins by the Blood of Jesus to the soules of sinners but both he and Stephen Acts 7. by Office were Deacons Acts 6. 5. by which office they had no more to do to Preach than any Disciple Object Saul entred into every house haling men and women c. And devout men carried Stephen to his burial therefore not all scattered Answ There is never a syllable in the Text that proves this was in Jerusalem but it might be in other places whither they fled for refuge and for the burial of Stephen that was before they were scattered for the persecution arose about the stoning of Stephen Acts 11. 19. But the last shelter that you are forc'd to fly to from the cleer Countenance of this Text is that this was extraordinary as Davids eating that bread in time of hunger that at other times was unlawfull Yet necessity might justifie the action to this I Reply that some things in case of necessity may be done that at other times are unlawfull and that necessity justifies the action I grant but now there is not the like Connexion betwixt persecution and preaching as is betwixt hunger and bread a man in ex●reme hungar cannot well forbear bread but a man in time of persecution may forbear preaching was it lawfull for these men to preach it could not be persecution that could make it lawfull what though they were persecuted a thousand times they might hold their tongues for all tha was it unlawfull for them to have done it nay rather of the two it tyed them to hold their peace being persecuted for what they preach'd Thus it appeares that all that can preach may and such who can by preaching convert a soul to Jesus may Baptize him so converted though no Minister in office And whereas you say no man can be a lawfull Administrator unless Elected c. That 's apparently false for both Philip Acts 8. 38. and Ananias Acts 9. 18. Baptized and were never Elected to that work See but the natural face of your assertion No man can be a lawfull Administrator unless elected to that authority by Baptized persons But neither Ananias or Philip were elected so Ergo. Neither of these were lawfull Administrators the Major's your own the Minor is evident Philip a Deacon Ananias a disciple Thus your assertions cast dirt in the face of the Scripture Now for the inference that you say is drawn that we have no Mission c. I answer I never yet heard any man from such questions draw such inference had you but done me that favour to have told me who they were I should have been ready to answer them I have cause to suspect from whom it comes and I fear themselves are the men to whom every part of that result may with ease be applyed but seeing you say you make no such inference I am willing to let it pass it being you only I deal with Thus having answered this which you have most spoken to I shall expedite an answer to the rest of your Arguments which it seemes you make less account of in that to some you have endevoured to add a little proof and to some none at all If the separated societies be not true Churches then our Assemblies Arg. 11. Dr. B. are for certain it is Christ hath some true Churches amongst us and the only question is whether the Parochial or separated Congregations but you are not true Churches which I prove by an Argument of your own Those Churches that are not righly gathered are no true Churches but your Churches are not rightly gathered The Minor I prove thus The way of gathering your Churches hath no warrant in Scripture Ergo. I put you upon producing one precept or president in all the Scripture of gathering Churches out of Societies that hold and profess the fundamental verities 2. Those Churches that rob Gods people of their right are no true Churches but so do yours for you take away Church-membership from the Infant Children of Believers in denying the Sacrament of Initiation appointed for Gospel-Churches which was granted them under the former administration and is no where repealed but confirmed rather Rom. 11. Acts 2. 39. 3. Your Churches want a right form Ergo. The consequence is cleer because form gives being The antecedent is certain because an express Covenant is no where made the right form of a visible Church If this be the right form then why are not Popish Churches true there being such a Covenant between Popish Priests and people If by separated societies you mean all that are separated from you Answ J. O. the consequence may be good otherwise not There not being fulness enough in the division If you mean all I deny the Minor both of the first and also of the second framed to prove it and also the Consequence of the third and after all the result is you put us too no proof that we are no true Churches we are not rightly gathered the way of our gathering hath no warrant in Scripture and that this is so I put you to prove that it hath This is the pittifullest proof that ever I heard man make had I undertook to prove your Churches false and after three Arguments drawn such a Conclusion you would even have hist at it sure your schooles never taught you thus to dispute I had thought you had ingaged to proove Sir prove that you the Parishes of England generally hold and profess the fundamentall verities Secondly That it is unlawfull to separate from a people so professing c.