Christian Conngregation IF Christ Iesus the author fiinisher of owre faith haue constituted confirmed the ministration of the new Testament perfect for all ages persons how to serue him according to his vvyll then your liturgye drawen out of the Popes portuis is not only Idolatrous superstitious a deuised vvorship the inuentions precepts of men in stead of the liuelye graces present guifts of his spirit wherby men call vppō his name but a bondle of infinite grosse blasphemous errors yea euen a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or counterfeit gospell not only set aboue the gospell of Christ but dyrectly instituting an other ministry ministracōn then Christ hath commended commaunded to his Church till his apearing in the clouds to iudgmēt vnto vvhich Idoll and huge Chaos of long gathered patched errors all your ministery is sworne vvherby they renounce Christs Testamēt must administer by this liturgye babling ouer the seuerall parcells therof as thei are lymited prescribed stinted from yeare to yeare day to day By which liturgye or new gospell the priests of that order are approued sufficient without preaching or the guyft of teaching and the repeating of that 〈◊〉 booke accompted sufficient for all mens saluation And if anie do preache his doctrines must be conformed to the orders hereof The errours in this Idolatrous booke conteyned vvould not be easely repeated in half a day yet this vve are able to proue that it instituteth apointeth another ministery ministration in all points then Christs Testament hath confirmed not only peruerting making of no effect the ordinances of God concerning the vvorship of his people but establishing another in the place therof as in theire prayers Sacraments fasts feasts offrings purifications maryages buryalls c. manifestly apeareth 4. That the Church of England as it is novve established is no entire member of the Church of Christ. THe Common vvealth of England or parish assemblies as they gennerally stand vnder subiect vnto the aforesaide vvorship ministery consisting of all sorts of vncleane spirits Atheists papists hereticks c. are not the true apparant established Churches of Christ or communion of saincts and so by outward profession they neither being gathered from the vvorld to the obedyence of Christ neither hauing power or freedom to practice Christs Testament as the truth is reuealed are no entire member of the body of Christe 5. That the gouernment of the Church of England as it is novv established is no lavvfull gouernment nor Christian but antichristian and popish HAuing in the former articles sufficiently proued theire worship ministerye to be Idolatrous forbidden in the second Cōmaundment as all apochripha inuentions of men It is euident to all men confessed of owre enemies that the ministers lawes other ordinācs wherby the parish assemblies are gouerned are not such as Christ apointed to his Church of Pastor Teacher Elders Deacons c. But by such officers Courts Cannons as are hatched from Rome as Archb. L. BBs c. whose titles office or administracōns were neuer heard of in the scriptures 6. That the Sacraments of Babtisme the Lords Supper as they are administred in the Church of England be not true Sacraments THere neither being lawfull ministery to administer nor faithfull holye free people orderly gathered vnto the true true outward professiō of Christ as we haue before shewed and consequently no Couenant of grace the Sacraments in these assēblies of Babtisme and the Lords supper gyuē vnto Atheists papists vvhoremasters drunkerds theire seede delyuered also after a superstitious maner according to theire liturgye and not according to the institution rules of Christs Testament are no true Sacraments nor seales vvith promise 7. That infants ought not to be baptised according to the forme of Babtisme ministred novv in the Church of England but are rather to be kept vnbaptized NO godly Christians seperat from the false Church ought to bring theire infants to theis parish assemblies to be baptised into that felowship or profession by that ministery or according to that order but in the true Church to seeke the Seale of the Couenant so sone as it may be had by the true ministerye in the Congregation according to Christs institution we still affirme 8. Manie of them make scruple to affirme that the Queens Maiestie hath supreame aucthoritie to gouerne the Church of England in cases ecclesiasticall and to make lavves ecclesiasticall nos contrarye to Christ lavves ALL true Christians vvithin her Maiesties dominions acknowledg her Maiestie to be the supreame maiestrate gouernesse of all persons with in the Church vvithout the Church yea ouer all causes ecclesiasticall ciuill yet allwayes vvith this Caueat that no flesh may presume to add anie thing to his vvord or diminish anie thing from it This vve make no scruple to affirme 9. That the lavves ecclesiasticall alreadye established by the aucthoritie of the Queene Realme be not lavvfull SEing the ecclesiasticall lavves Canons Iniunctions Articles Courts ministery c. vvherby these parish assemblies be gouerned and guyded are not deryued from the booke of God or can be vvarranted therby or grounded theruppon but are the inuentions of men vvhich tourne avvay the truth abrogating Christs lavves ordinances yea seing they are culled out if not whollie receaued from that great Antichrist his Canons orders diuelish polecies as most malignant oppositions against the vvill of God confirmed perfected vvith Christs bloud miracles from heauen therfore these Canons Iniunctions articles hovv plawsible soeuer they agree to the vvorld yet are they the execrable wares of Antichrist Statuts of Omry and not to be receaued or obeyed of anie that loue the Lord Iesus Christ. 10. That if the Prince or Maiestrate vnder her doe refuse or defer to reform such faults as are amisse in the Church the people may take the reforming of them in theire ovvne hands before or vvith out her aucthoritie NEyther do we looke for anie reformation of Babell that is this world of confusion your false Church neither do we take vppon vs to intermeddle with the Magistrats sword but keepe owre selues in thought word deed within the lymitts of owre calling in all dutifull obedyence to owre prince superiours for conscience towards God and teach men both by vvord example so to vvalke But that all that vvylbe saued must forsake the false Church by repentance come vnder Christs obedience to serue vvorship God aright in his true Church vve hold it so true a doctrine as that there is no other meanes or promise of saluation Nether may vve eyther neglect the true seruice of god nor practise of anie part therof or haue fellowship vvith the works of darknes though the prince should inhibit the one commaund the other no herein vve shew no disobediēce to magistrats vvhose displeasure vve must rather vndergoe then fall into the hands of the euerlyuing
anie man that vvill compare the arguments answeres to the present subiect of the discourse As for the other side if nothing should be published vntill theire consent were had there should neuer anie of these things com to light But if they thinke themselues iniuryed let them set downe the particulers vvherin or for the further satisfying of all men let them yet at length condiscend to som christian free conference where both sides may haue lyberty to produce theire reasons a true record of them be kept by faithfull indifferent notaries ech side be allowed to haue a copie therof time to consider of vvhat is passed accordingly Thus might the thruth sone peeceablye be knovven vvhere the vvord of God may be judg betvvixt them from vvhich vvho so departeth vvil not be reduced let him to his vvne perill vndergoe such censures iudgments as are due to his error syn Only this is sure VVisdome is iustified of all her children Farevvell in the Lord. To owre Louing freinds M r. Archdeacon Mollins Mr. Doctor Andros Mr. Cotton Mr. Hutchinson and the rest of the preachers in about London vvith in named AFter owre harty Commendations I the Bisshop of Londō haue receiued order from my Lords grace of Canterburye vvith the aduice of both the cheiffe Iustices that conference should presently be had vvith these Sectories vvhiche do forsake ovvr Church and be for the same cōmytted prysoners for that it is intēded if by ovvr good learned persvvasions they vvill not be reduced to conforme themselues to their dutifull obedyence that they shalbe proceeded vvith all according to the course of the common lavve Therfore these are to vvill requyre you euery of you vvhose names are mencioned in the shedule hereunto anexed in her Ma ts name by vertue of her high Commission for causes ecclesiasticall to vs and others dyrected That tvvise euery vveeke at the least you doe re-repayre to those persons prysoners vvhose names are in this tycket set doune and that you seeke by all learned discrete demeanure you may to reduce them from their errors And for that eyther their conformitye or disobedyence may be more manifest vvhen they shall com vnto theire trial Therfore vve requyre you to set dovvne in vvryting the perticuler dayes of your going to cōfer vvith them lykevvise your censure vvhat it is of them as that if occasion doe serue to vse it you vvilbe svvorne vnto And for that Mr Doctor Stanhope Chancellor to me the Bisshop of London is gon out of the Citie therfore vve requyre Mr. Mollins to send for all those seuerall preachers and delyuer them the names of the prysoners togeather with the prysons vvhervnto they are assigned to resort and to requyre them as aforesaide to take the chardg vppon them according to the trust commytted vnto them and in case anie of them refuse that then you require him or them forthvvith to repayre to me to Fulham and to certefie me of their aunsvvers before theire comming And so vve byd you Farevvell the 25. of Februarye 1589. Your Louing freinds Iohn Lond. Iohn Herbert Edvv. Stanhope Rich. Cosen WE haue sent you herevvithall a note of som part of their errors vvherby those preachers that are associat vnto you may the better consider hovv to deale in conference with them A briefe of the positions holden by the nevve sectorie of recusants 1 THat it is not lawfull to vse the Lords prayer publiquely in the Church for a set forme of prayer 2 Secondly that all set stinted prayers are meere babling in the sight of the Lord not to be vsed in publique Christian assemblies 3. Thirdly that the publique prayers worship of God in England as it is by lavve in the Church of England established is false superstitious popish and not to be vsed in anye Christian congregation 4. That the Church of England as it is now established is no entier member of the Church of Christ. 5. That the gouernment of the Church of England as it is now established is no lawfull gouernment nor christian but antichristian popish 6. That the Sacraments of Babtisme the Lords supper as they are administred in the Church of England be not true Sacraments 7. That infants ought not to be baptised according to the forme of baptisme ministred now in the Church of Englad but are rather to be kept vnbaptised 8. Manie of them make scruple to affirme that the Queens Maiestie hath supreame aucthoritie to gouern the Church of England in cases ecclesiasticall and to make lawes ecclesiasticall not contrary to Christs lawes 9. That the lawes ecclesiasticall already established by the auctoritie of the Queene Realme be not lawfull 10. That if the prince or maiestrate vnder her doe refuse or defer to reforme such faults as are aimsse in the Church the people may take the reforminge of them into theire owne hands before or vvithout her auctoritie 11. That the presbiterie or eldership may for som causes after admonition if there ensue not reformation excommunicat the Queene 12. That the Church of England as it novv standeth by lavve established professeth not a true Christ nor true religion that it hath no ministers in deed nor Sacraments in deed Iames Forester prysoners in newgate in the Fleete Do Bancraft Iohn Francys prysoners in newgate in the Fleete Robert Batkine prysoners in newgate in the Fleete Do Grant Thomas Freeman in the gatehowse Do Wood Thomas Settel in the gatehowse Iohn Debenham in the gatehowse Mr. Egerton George Collier in the Clynke Iohn Sparowe in the Clynke Do Sallard Edmond Nicolson in the Clynke M r. Iackson Xpofer Raper in the Clynke M r. Dunscombe Xpofer Browne in the Clynke Quintan Smyth in the Clynke M r. Smyth Androwe Smyth in the Clynke William Blakborowe in the Clynke Mr. Phyllips Thomas Lemar in the Clynke Thomas Michell in the Clynke Do White Anthonye Clakston in newgate William Forester in newgate Mr. Sparke William Denford in newgate Roger Waterer in newgate Mr. Erlye Edeth Burrowghe in newgate William Burt in newgate Mr. Turnball George Smels in the Counter woodstreet Xpofer Bowman in the Counter woodstreet Mr. Edmonds Robert Iackson in Count woodstr Mr. Haughton Nycolas Lee in the Count woodstr Mr. Gylpenne Robert Andrewes in Count woodstr Mr. Coper William Hutton in Count woodstr Mr. Archpoole Iohn Buser in Count woodstr Do Hanmer Iohn Fissher in Count woodstr Do Crooke William Clarke in Count vvoodstr Mr. Trypp Richard maltusse in Count vvoodstr Mr. Morrison William Fouller in Count vvoodstr Mr. Crowe Richard Skarlet in Count vvoodstr Mr. Brovvne Roger Rippine in Count vvoodstr Mr. Hall Iohn Clarke in Count vvoodstr Mr. Moslee Rowland Skipworth in the Counter poultrye preacher at Bridevvell George Knifton in the Counter poultrye Mr. Anderson Richard Hayward in Count poult Mr. Gardiner Iohn Lankaster in Count poult Mr. Cotton Thomas Endford in Count poult Mr. Cheyne Mr. Mollins Henry Barrowe in the
Fleete Mr. Androvves Iohn Greenwood in the Fleete Mr. Hutchinsō Do Sarauea Daniell Studley in the Fleete M r. Grauet Walter Lane in the Fleete M r. Fissher Edmond Tomson in the gatehouse M r. Iudson Iohn Nicolas in the gatehouse Mr. Temple William Dodson in the gatehowse Mr. Allison Iohn Barrens in the gatehowse Do Blague Iohn Cranford in the gatehowse M r. Herd Richard vvheeler in the gatehowse Mr. Harvye Thomas Canadine in the gatehowse A brief answeare to such Articles as the Bishopps haue giuen out in our name vpon which articles their Priests were sent and injoyned to Confer with vs in the seuerall prisons wherin we are by them detayned HOw charitablie soeuer theis forged positions conningly cōtriued may seme to be framed in respect of the sclaunderous priuiledged pamphletts heretofore dispersed through the whole land by the enemies of Christ suppressors of all righteousnes to bring vs in contempt with all men yet if we consider the end more sereously vvay the present drift of theis BBs theire priests and new reconciled Reformists set a worke in this busines we shal finde they neuer went more craftely about the spilling of owre innocent bloud For they in theire secret consultations hauing collected theis articles haue allso togeather vvith them constituted commaunded certaine theire priests twise euery weeke during this Lent to offer vs priuate conference in way of examination or auriculer confession to fish farther cause of accusation vppon theis poincts vvhose testimonie verdict of suborned vvitnesses they think to frame to their bloudthirstie appetites vve in the meane tyme not suffred eyther to set downe owre ovvne positions neyther before equall vvytnesses to ansvver or discouer theire false allegations Wherfore vve thought it good being all close prysoners to relate vnto all men that desire the truth ovvre simple iudgments in theis doctrines vvherat they thus snarrle vve resting still most desirous of anie christian or equall conference before indifferēt vvitnesses set dovvne recorded if vve might obteine the same vppon the dispence of ovvre lyues yea the God of heauen knovveth hovv vvilling ready vve are to be instructed or corrected in anie thing vvherin vve err vvhen it shalbe shevved vs by the booke of God First then vnderstand that theis accusers affirme theis to be ovvre positions vvhich they haue framed of theire ovvne braine vvithout ovvre knovvledg much lesse cōsent Secondly they pronunce vs nevve sectories although vve hold no other thing in iudgment or practize more then Christ his Apostles haue taught vs in the Scriptures and cōfirmed by theire examples deathes And vvhether Christs Testament in theis mens antichristian lavves ordinances fetched from Rome or deuised by themselues be novv to be holden nevve doctrines let all men consider Thirdly they call vs Recusants hauing neither forsaken the fellovvship of the true Church or least member of Christ that vvalketh in the Communion of the faith submytting himself to be guyded by Christs lavves ordinances nor refused anie truth approued vnto vs. Only vve according to the Commandment of God haue forsakē all sprirituall fellovvship vvith theire false Church as also the inuetions popery yea all the execrable marchandize of that ministery confused Babell euen that vvorld of vvickednes Out of vvhich the Lord dravve fourth all his elected 1. That it is not lavvful to vse the Lords prayer publiquely in the Church for a set forme of prayer THe Lords prayers vve take to be those prayers vvhich himself offred to his father in his ovvne person as he vvas man vppō earthe according to his present occasions the will of his father poured fourth The forme of prayer gyuen to his Disciples to all posterities by the record of the Euangelists we hold acknowledg most holy Canonicall scripture to be vsed of all Churches in that vse and to that end for which owre Sauioure gaue it Namely to be the perfect patterne rule of all owre prayers vvhether deprecations supplications thanksgyuing c. Not that we are bounde to the very vvords saying ouer or asking all things therin conteined euery tyme we pray nether that the words red or sayd ouer by rote can be called a prayer seing all prayer must proceede of Gods spyrit from owr owne harts according to owre present necessities So that where he calleth it the Lords prayer he falsefieth the text seing Christ neuer did or could vse it as his owne prayer For there is petition made for remission of synnes he neuer trespassing And where he saith we hold it vnlawfull to be vsed publiquelye in the Church for a fet forme of prayer he sclaundereth vs vve graunt it to be the absolute perfect only forme of all true prayers If anie demaund further vvhether vve may vse the vvords therof eyther wholy as they are set downe or anie sentence of them in prayers we answer by explication or application tending to edifying expressing owre present estate vve may The same questions may be demaunded of the prayers mentioned in the Psalmes dyuerse other scriptures to which vve aunswere that we restraine no man of the vse of anie parcell or sentence of Scripture rightly applyed Yet herevppon is not iustified eyther theire fyue tymes saying ouer of theire Pater Noster in theire English morrow masses nor yet theire superstitious repetition of theis words in the conclusions of theire prayers after or before theire sermons vvhen as they say they knowe not vvhat to aske and therfore pray as Christ hath taught them by repeting these vvords vvhich thei call the Lords prayer where in thei lye 2. That all sett stinted prayers are meere babling in the sight of the Lord and not to be vsed in publique Christian assemblies FOr such formes of prayer as are Canonicall such as be commended to vs by Gods spirit in his word we haue already in the former Article set downe the true holy vse of them to be for instruction c. But that anie man should thrust his deuises into the worship of God christian assemblies we wonder at theire ignorant presumption and much more that they dare be so bold as to set stint the holy ghost what vvhen hovv manie vvords to vtter in prayer So that your annuall monthly dayly morning and euening prayers vvherin you bynde mens consciences to the prescript repetition of your ovvne vvords as an offring to God vve hold them by the euidēce of Gods booke not only a babling but apochriphall Idolatrous contrary to the second Commaundmēt bringing the vvrath of God vppon the imposers receauers For by theis Idolls you take avvay the vvhole lyberty fredome true vse of spirituall prayer yea you stop the springs of the lyuing fountaine vvhich Christ hath sealed in his Church 3. That the publique prayers vvorship of God in England as it is by lavve in the Church of England established is false superstitious popish not so be vsed in anie
god vvho vvill abide no halting For the vvarrant of those things vve haue the doctrine of the prophetts Christ his Apostles who teach vs in this case to suffer persequutioÌ„ as they that feare him that can cast both soule bodye into hell fyre and if the magistrate punish vs for vvel doing vve are far from resistance vvillingly vndergoing vnto death theire displeasure But god forbid they should be guylty of owre innocent bloud by such sclaunderous reports vvithout due examinacoÌ„n of the truth It is these vvicked false prophetts that trouble the land that oppose the magistrats povver against Christ ciuill against spirituall Prince against Subiects 11. That the presbiterie or Eldership may for some causes after admonition if there ensue not reformation excommunicat the Queene WE detest that Antichristian povver of that person or presbiterye vsurping aucthoritie ouer the vvhole Church as you others do exercise in your popish Courts secret Classes devised Synods of priests as though they vvere Lords ouer the heritage The true officers of Christ vsurp no tyrannicall iurisdiction ouer the leaste member neither do anie publique thing vvithout the consent of the vvhole Congregation much lesse may the presbiterie excommunicat anie person by theire sole povver seing Christ hath gyuen this povver to the vvhole Church and not solye to the presbiterie The Prince also if he vvilbe held a meÌ„ber of Christ or of the Church must be subiect to Christs censure in the Church That Congregation then wherof the prince is a member may excommunicat the obstinat offendors therin vvithout exception of person read of in the whole Booke of God yea great iniurye to Christ his Church and to the prince it were to exempt them from the meanes of theire owne saluation for which end this power is only gyuen ought to be so exercised Neither doth it derogate diminish or take away anie part of the magistrats power or aucthoritie except you vvould haue no lawefull magistracye that is not of the Church or that the spirituall power of Christ in his Church should disanull the magistracy which were diuelish doctrine 12. That the Church of England as it novv standeth by lavve established professeth not a true Christ nor true religion that it hath not ministers indeed nor Sacraments indeed AS for your Religion Church Sacraments c. we haue before shewed the forgerye of them vnto which former Articles vve referr the reader Only now vve must take away BalaaÌ„ his stumbling block which he layeth before men as though vve denyed the true Christ perfect God perfect man of his tvvoe natures subsisting not confounded but vnited c. Yea vve confesse there is but one bodye one spirit one Lord one faith one baptisme and that this Christ is in all places the same for euer hovvsoeuer the false Church may challenge interest in the lyuing Child But that these parish assemblies denie him to reigne ouer them yea to be anie true Christ vnto them by theire deeds it is manifest For doe they not put the reede of the Popes Canons in his hand in steade of the Scepter of his ovvne holy vvord Do they not make him a minister of an other TestameÌ„t by bynding him to this theire popishe Apochripha liturgye and all theire other deuises made or to be made Do they not make him a priest a sacrifice to all the prophane vngodly To conclude do they not hereby denye and abrogate all his offices in his Church of kingdome priesthoode prophecye and his vvhole anointing in the flesh The brief summe of a conference had the 9. day of the 3. Moneth betweene Mr. Hutchinson Arch-DeacoÌ„ me Iohn Greenwood prisoner in the Fleet hauing bene kept close now a yeare an half by the BBs sole commaundement The perticuler discourse wherof vvere but vnprofitable to relate neither will I trust my fraile memorye therin Mr. Hutchchinson said he came by vertue of Commission in her Ma ts name to confer c. I denying to make answere to anie thing vntill I might haue indifferent vvitnesse by the matter to be vvritten downe obteined to haue pen ynke Mr. Calthrop a gentleman prysoner to be vvitnes I desired Mr. Hutch to set downe the end of his comming I vvould make answere thereunto vvhereuppon he vvrote vvith his owne hand to this effect Memorandum that I Mr. Huthchinson being desired by Mr. Greenwood to set downe the end of my comming shew it him to be by vertue of commission yet not to examine him or anie vvay to hurt him but to confer vvith him about his seperating of himself from the Church of England if I might reduce him c. I Iohn Greenwood not desiring Mr. Hutchinson his comming yet am most vvilling of anie Christian conference vvhere it shall be free asvvell to oppose as ansvvere on both sides the matter to be recorded in vvriting The cause that I vvill not othervvise reason is for that I haue bene vvickedly sclauÌ„dered our cause falsly reported by Do. Some others c. Mr. Hutchinson then brought forth certaine articles of theire collections reading them vnto me Also he shevved me Do Somes sclauderous booke vvhere he turned to the positions the author had falsly affirmed to be ours Hauing read his Articles he demaunded vhether I approued or disalovved of them To the Articles I said they vvere theyre ovvne collectioÌ„s not ours And as for Mr. Somes booke it vvas full of lyes sclaunders But I vvilled him if he vvould confer to set dovvne some position vnder his hand vvhich I vvould assent vnto or els disproue Still he vvould haue me to ansvvere some of those articles c. But at length he vvilled me to set dovvne some cause whie I would not come to theire Church vvhereuppoÌ„ I vvorte thus The parish assemblies in England consist of all sorts of profane people generallye subiect to this antichristian ministerie lavves Courts vvorship c. And therfore are not the true apparant established Churches of Christ To this he first answered that if the parish assemblies were a false Church then euery member thereof was a member of the false Church which were daÌ„gerous for me to affirme I desired him first to denye or affirme the argument being generall after infer what it pleased him at last he made this answere in writing with his owne hand HVTCH. Your vnsufficient Argument hath 2. defaults in it 1. the sequell of your Argument is not true 2. Your first assertion cannot be prooued GREEN I will replie vppon your second exception as order requireth That Your parish assemblies consist of all sortes of profane people c. is thus proued They vvere all by the blovving of her Maiesties trumpet at her coronaiâ—â—â— in one day receaued vvithout conuersion of life by faith repentance they theyr seede euer since generallie receaued to your sacrament vvithout anie seperation from the vvorld Therfore they novv consist of all sorts of profane
heathen they could not excommunicate because they were neuer in communion with them The Publicanes they did not excommunicate because they still admitted them vnto the Temple ANDR. I will shew you in Scripture that the Gentiles were not suffred to enter into the Temple Therfore they were excommunicate And the other was a ciuile discommuning BAR. It should seeme you know not what excommunication is They were neuer admitted to enter into the Temple Therfore they were not excommunicat For none can be excommunicat but he that hath bene in cōmunion But the heathen was neuer in Communiō As for this ciuile discommuning of such as are still held members of the Church it is a most vngodly deuise For to cast out or abhor in owr commō meats such as the Lord receiueth vnto his Table were verie vnchristian ANDR. You vnderstand not the place Did not owr Sauiour Christ there speake of excommunication willing them to haue such as refused to heare the Church in detestation as the Iewes held theire heathens publicanes whom they excommunicat BAR. Oure Sauiour there speaketh not of excommunication of the Iewes but of the excommunicat Christians willing all his Disciples to shunne eschue such as heare not the Church as the Iewes did the heathens the Publicanes to haue neither spirituall nor ciuile communion with thēm But what is all this to the purpose what answere do you make to my former reason HVTCH. Which reason You haue as yet made none but proued the same whith the same BAR. This reason All the people of the Land were receiued into the Church at one instant had this ministrie these Sacraments c. without being called vnto faith repentance by the preaching of the gospell Therfore they were receiued into your Church without true faith and repentance because it is impossible to haue true faith true repētance without the preaching of the gospell going before ANDR. Was not the Eunuche as sodainly receiued into the Church had the Sacraments administred vnto him with as little knowledg as they BAR. No he was called by the preaching of Phillip and had more knowledg then anie of these people or well nigh anie of theire teachers thē had being all generally plunged in apostacy Idolatry immediatly before ANDR. Could he bewray greater ignorance then to doubt of so Mr. Andros read the place out of Esai plaine a place as none in the Scriptures coud be more manifest He vvas vvounded for our transgressions he vvas broken for our iniquities The chastisment of our peace vppō him vvith his stripes vve are healed of whom else could this be vnderstood but of Christ BAR. I not loking vppō the place as Luke recordeth it Act. 8. Espied not then how craftely Mr. Androes falsefied misaledged the text Yet I added this He vvas led as a Shepe vnto the slaughter like a lambe domb before his sherer So opened he not his mouth My answere therfore herevppon was that it was no ignorant question But that the greatest Rabbine of those times might well haue asked the question seing it is so commō a thing in the Prophetts to haue figured manie things that came vnto Christ in theire owne persons as appeareth euery where in the booke of psalmes and also in this prophecy and almost in all other Is it not said in this prophet Behold I the children that thou hast giuen me are as signes vvonders in Israell might not this questiō then be well asked whither the Prophet spake it in his owne person or of an other ANDR. It was a most ignorant question Could anie beare or be broken for owr transgressions but Christ only BAR. But the Prophet might be led as a sheope vnto the slaughter c. And therfore the question was according vnto knowledge and such as without knowledg could not be moued Or vnlesse it were knowne that text not be vnderstood This Eunuche was a godly zealous Proselite before Phillip met with him ANDR. What will you say godly before he had the knowledge of Christ BAR. Yea I say godly and that before he knew that Christ was exhibited come in the flesh ANDR. Then belike in that estate the Eunuche might haue bene saued if so be he had dyed before he had heard that Christ was come in the flesh ascended BAR. Yea I doubt not therof ANDR. HVTCH. That is heresie will you set that downe vnder your hande BAR. Yea that I will and abide by it also to be truth and proue both you hereticks if you obstinatly affirme and teach the contrarye ANDR. Whie then there were two faithes two wayes of saluatiō one for Iewes an other for Christians BAR. It followeth not There was but one faith one saluation commō to all beleiuers from the begynning Christ to day yesterday for euer the same The Iewes beleiued in Christ to come The Gentiles then in Christ come Both in Christ Both saued by faith in Christ. The Iewes that had not as yet seene the person nor heard of the ministerie of Christ dying in that estate were vndoubtedly saued The Lord bare much a long tyme with the Iewes and gaue a tyme of remouing these things HVTCH. The Eunuche made a true profession when he confessed IESVS to be the Sonne of GOD was then baptised Therfore owr people making as good confession whie should they not also as sodainly be receiued to the Sacraments ministerie BAR. It hath oft bene sayd that your people do not neither could make so good a confession as the Eunuche because they had not the preaching of the gospell going before theire confession neither shewed they such fruits of faith as the Eunuche did who was a true worshipper of GOD before ANDR. The Gaoler in the Acts was as sodainly called baptised and shewed no more fruites of faith then these did BAR. That is not so he washed the Apostles stripes administred comfort vnto them foode vnto them after that he his howse-hold had heard beleiued the word preached But I neuer heard of anie Church erected in this maner without the word preached going before as yours is ANDR. They had the word preached in king Edwards time BAR. What boted that when they all fell to Idolatrie in Q. Maries time and all without being called to repentance by the gospell were receiued into your Church c. HVTCH. The confession they made was sufficient BAR. That is denied and proued insufficient because it was not wrought by the preaching of the gospell going before Answere that reason Herevppon Mr. Hutchinson toke the pen ynke wrote to this effect HVTCH. The confessiō of sinne that is publiquely made in the Church of England is sufficient to enable all such as say it sincerely to the ministerie Sacraments of the Church BAR. The verball confessiō that is prescribed vsed in the Church of England is not sufficiēt to enable the people that say it or say Amen vnto it
at that tyme be set ouer them in that estate 16. They still denied the Maior gaue this reason therof because the vnbeleeuers might heare the ministerie of the Church Wee graunted that the vnbeleeuers might heare the ministerie of the Church but from hence it followeth not that they had interest in the ministerie before they were members of the Church It is one thing to heare the ministerie of the Church an other thing to be a member of the Church 17. Then they brought Pauls example to proue that a ministerie might be set ouer infidells because he was said to be the teacher of the Gentiles all the Apostles willed to goe and teach all nations To this it was answered that Paul stood no minister neither tooke gouernment or chardge ouer anie heathen which were not called to the faith ioyned to the Church still putting difference betwixt teaching the heathen the truth exercising a ministerie ouer them 18. They alledged 1 Pet. 1. that the Apostle there tooke chardge care ouer strangers Yt was answered that those strangers were Iewes called to the faith dispersed through manie regions as the next verse 1 Pet. 1.2 Iames 1. sheweth 19. Paul wrote himself a father of the Corinths though ye haue manie teachers yet haue ye but one father Yt was still answered that those Corinthians were beleeuers Argument 3. There can be no communion betvvixt the beleeuers vnbeleeuers therefore the infidells can haue no communion vvith the Church in the ministerie thereof or in anie spirituall action Being demaunded by them what we meant by communion we answered such cōmunion as is spoken of Act. 2.42 in doctrine in prayer in the sacraments in mutuall communication in all Christian duties how none were receaued to this communion before they were ioyned as members vnto the Church Argument 4. There can novv be no Pastor ouer anie people by the rules of Christi testamēt but vvhere a mutuall couenant is made betvveene the Pastor the people he bounde to teach guide gouerne them they againe to obey him in the Lord But the infidells haue made no such couenant vvith the Pastor Therfore c. 20. Do. Androes said the Pastor ought not to gouerne that he himself was a Pastor yet no guyde or gouernor of the flocke and that in the Church there were gouernors ouer the Pastors as Bishops We answered that the word Bishop or Ouerseer vvas a generall name cōmon to the Pastor teacher Elders vvhich name importeth gouernment care Phil. 1.1 Act. 20.28 21. Do. Androes here said that the vvord bishop was not common vnto either the Pastor teacher or Elders but vnto other higher gouernors We answered that vnto their ministerie the name of a bishop did not indeed accord but only vnto their Lord bishops desired some proofe of this their assertion out of the word of God 22. Vnto vvhich they answered that all their ministerie vvas by positiue lavves We then said that it must needs follow that all their religion vvorship was pollitick also that ministerie vvhich Christ hath not prescribed in his Testament is antichristian At lentgh after manie bitter reprochfull speaches against vs vve returned againe to our former discourse framed this Argument vnto the rest Argument 5. The people novv are to make choice proofe of their Paestor But thei vvithout the faith cannot make choice of theyr Pastor Therfore c. Here they said that this allowre other positions were fond vaine foolish this was all the answere vve could get of them Mr. Hutchinson at the breaking vp requyred me Henry Barrow to set downe some reasons whie I refused to ioine vnto their Church that the people present might be satisfied whervppon I set him downe vnder mine hand as followeth The reasons vvhie I Henry Barrow cannot ioine with the Church of England yeilded by me the 13. of the 4. Moneth 1. The people as they stand are not called orderly to the faith but stand mingled togeather in confusion 2. The ministerie set ouer them is not the true ministerie of the gospell which Christ hath appointed to his Church in his testament 3. The administration worship of this Church is not according to the word of God 4. The ecclesiasticall gouernment Courts officers Cannons are not according to the testament of Christ but new antichristian Vntill all these points be eyther approoued by the word of God or reformed I cannot consent to ioyne vnto this Church in this estate These things I witnesse subscribe H. Barrovv I Iohn Greenwood being demaunded by M r. Hutchinson whether I would set downe myne hād vnto this or ells yeild some other cause of my dislike refused to do either of both vntill he had prooued the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ as he had twise promised at neither of his commings would performe A breif answeare to certayne sclaunderous Articles vngodlie calumniations sparsed abrode by the BB s theire adherēts against diuerse faithfull true Christians her Maiesties loyall and louinge Subiectes to cullour theire owne vngodly tyrannicall dealing with them to bring them into hatred both with Prince and people Article 1. They hold that the Lords praier or anie sell prayer is blasphemy they neuer vse anie prayer for the Queene as supreame head vnder Christ of the Church of England Ansvveare WE hold that the Lords praier so commonly called is sacred Canonicall scripture cōteyning a most absolute perfect rule grownd worke wherby all faith full prayers ought to be framed gyuen by owr Sauyour Christ for the instruction and confirmatiō of his Disciples that theire prayers might be according to the will glory of God But that the very forme of words as they are in theis petitions were gyuē instituted as a sett stinted prayer or that owre Sauiour Christ his Apostles haue euer vsed yt in that maner we finde not in the scriptures where we see theire prayers according to theire present occasions c. set downe in other words no mention made of such prescript lymited saying of this as they requyre enioyne Moreouer if they were as ignorant what belongeth to true prayer or of the true vse of this forme for prayer as they seeme yet euen theyre owne practize in theire pulpyts Liturgies doth excuse vs thus far forth condemne them For her Maiestie we praye both publiquely pryuatly day night at all tymes places according to owre duties as becommeth vs and godwilling wyll not cease so to do whilst owre lyues shall last Article 2. That all set prayers or stinted prayers or read seruice are but meere bablinge in Gods sight plaine Idolatrie TO this we answeare that we are taught in the Scriptures That God is a Spirit wilbe worshipped in Spirit truth we finde further in the Script in owr selues That God gyveth to
HVTCH. Most of them are now departed by death which then were 〈◊〉 receaued GREEN Therfore I included their seede to stand in the same estate no seperated from the world so could not be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a people called out HVTCH. I know not what you meane by seperation GREEN You know what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 BADAL signifieth as light is seperated from darknes so must the Church from the profane HVTCH. What meane you by profane GREEN Atheists men without the knowledg or feare of God togeather with the papists hereticks all other infidells Answere I pray you directly to myne Argument So he began with long circumstances to write I perfectly remember not what words but to this effect HVTCH. Mr. Greenwood affirmeth that because the people were conuerted from poperie by her Maiesties trumpet at her coronatiō therfore they consist of all sorts of profane with certaine such like words GREEN You falsefie my former Arg. make no sufficient or direct answere to it Answere directly HVTCH. The Church of England receaueth none to their sacraments but such as make publike declaration of their faith therfore consisteth not of or alloweth any profane people c. Heere we had much to doe about declaration of faith He said they in euerie assemblie had a general confession of sin other confessions of faith so were not to be called profane To which I answered the papists also had their confessions as the Creed Pater noster which they repeated daily in their meetings yet could they not for that verball confession be accompted the true Church Mr. Hutchinsō said the popish Church was the Church though with manie corruptions when I demanded whither the true Church or no he said they were the Church of God To which I answered if yt were not the true Church yt was the Church of the deuill At which they were displeased I should iudg so vncharitablie Well still I denied theyr saying ouer their seruice to be a true sufficient confession to make them Christians affirming they might teach such a verball confession to a parrat HVTCH. Wil you iudg mens harts euen their godfathers doe make a confession for their infants GREEN That is euen such confession as the rest a babling ouer certayne words without knowledg Neither can there anie cōfession be made for infants but in mockerie I iudg not their hearts but I know they are not able to giue accompt of anie faith except the verball repeating certayne words taught them by rote But I will answere your former obiection Your parish assemblies neuer published their conuersion of life vvith knovvledg fruites of repentance seeing they had no doctrine to call them before they vvere all vvithout exception receaued yet are all they their seed of your Church therfore you receaue and allovve the profane c. This Argment is not fullie set downe because Mr. Hutchinson tooke vp the paper neither was yt awnswered Whiles I was writing this last position Mr. Huth was dilating from the 3 of Mathew how Ihon Baptist receaued them that came to his baptisme with small confession no knowledg of their former life yea that the Phariseis Saduceis were baptised c. also the Eunuch verie speedily c. GREEN You falsifie the text deceaue the people where can you proue that the Phariseis Saduceis were baptised of Ihon HVTCH. Heerupon Mr. Hutchinson turned to the 3 of Math began at the 5 verse to read Then vvent out to him Ierusalem al Iudea they vvere baptised of him confessing their sinnes GREEN Were all Iudea they of Ierusalem baptised HVTCH. No none but they that cōfessed their sines were baptiz GREEN This maketh against your self that none were receaued to Ihons baptisme but such as confessed their sins for with you all the world is receaued as membres of your Church theyr seed baptised Heere he would haue made the people beleeue I would haue none receaued to the Doctrine of the Church but they which vvere alreadie called I told him he must put difference betwixt the hearing of doctrine receauinge to be a member of the Church to the sacraments He demanded vvhome I accompted a member of the Church I said such as both by vvord practise ioined themselues in the seruice of God into the fellowship of the true Church c. Then he demanded vvherin the seruice of God consisted I said in the vvhole obedience of his vvil he yet demanded vvherin chieflie c. I answered I would not be catechized but desired him to bring some more euidēt profe that the Phariseis Saduces vvere baptised He said the vvhole chapter proued yt I desired him to draw some one argument from some one verse so he began againe read the 7 verse HVTCH. Novv vvhen he savv manie of the Phariseis Saduces come to his baptisme he said vnto them Generations of vipers vvho hath forvvarned you c. Againe in the 11. verse Iohn said In deed I baptize you vnto amendement of life c. First saith he they vvere forwarned to flee from the vvrath to come 2 they came to his baptisme 3 the text saith Ego baptizo vos c. all these proue they were baptised In that he calleth them generatiōs of vipers yt is euident they obeied not his forewarning neither vvere baptised 2. their comming to his baptisme proueth not that they vvere baptized 3 that same Ego baptizo vos is not referred to them so that euerie vvay you haue falsly made cohaerence in the text whervppon he vvilled me to read yt GREEN I then tooke the booke breeifly collected from the vvhole discourse thus Ierusalem all Iudea came to Ihons ministerie all that confessed their sinnes vvere baptised But when he-saw the Phariseis Saduces come vnto his baptisme he called them Generations of vipers and therfore baptised them not For this disiunctiue sentence but vvhen he savv the Pharises c. sheweth an exception that he baptised not all that came to him in the vvildernes neither vvould he haue called them generations of vipers if he had baptized them Abowt these matters we had much adoe vvhich because his next cōming vvas onlie to cauill about the same I will refer yt to our second cōference It must be remembred that Mr. Hutchinson made promise to me to prooue the Church of Rome the true Church vvhen he came againe Further remember that these matters about the Phariseis Saduces baptisme vvere not written these positions awnsweres which were written Mr. Hutch would needs carrie them avvay vvould neither haue the vvitnesses to keep them or me euer to see them or consider of them And through I though much a doe had gottē him to giue them into the vvitnesses hands yet so soone as I vvas gon lockt vp Mr. vvardens man vvas sent to the gentleman for them vvhoe denijng to deliuer them without our consents Mr. Hutch
sent the Archb his pursyuant for them which Mr. Hutch the last day of our conference denied in the presence of manie gentlemen So that either the Pursuyuant Watson made a lie or els Mr. Hutch cannot be excused But for that which I haue vvritten I refer yt to the vvitnesses for the truth therof yea the positions answeres to the vvriting vvwhich M r. Hutchinson hath kept from me The summe of the second conference had Betweene M. Hutchinson me Ihon Greenwood the 17 day of the 3 moneth THe 17 day of the 3 moneth I was sent for out of my chamber brought into the porters lodg in the Fleet where I found Mr. Hutchinson one whose name I after vnderstood to be D. Bright These 2 were closely locked in that no mā might heare our conference onely one of Mr. vvardens men besides my keeper came in so soone as I was come willed to sit downe with them M. Hutchinson began to make rehearsall of one point of our former conference to this effect HVTCH. Mr. Greenwood you know the last time that I was with you I prooued vnto you that Ihon Baptist receaued to his baptisme the Phariseis the Saduces mētioned in the 3 of Math. which you did not agree vnto The proofes that I brought were manie First the text saith they came to his baptisme 2. he saith I baptise you c. How stand you yet minded in this point proceding further to repeate mine answeres but I brake yt of made replie GREEN It is verie true that we dissented in this doctrine I disprooued all your alligations then brought to prooue that they were baptised I will not stand now to call into question our cōference then had only for that this was not then set downe in writing I beseech you if you remaine still of minde that they were baptised set yt downe vnder your hand I will either assent vnto yt or denie yt for iust cause HVTCH. I will doe so but if you will denie yt set downe your denial GREEN So I will when I see what you will affirme Then M r. Hutchinson willed the wardens man to write thus Mr. Hutchinson saith that Ihon Baptist did baptise the Pharisies Saduces mētioned in the 3 of Mathew vvhome he calleth generations of vipers Mr. Greenwood he saith that Ihon Baptist did not admit the Phariseis Saduces vvhome he there calleth generations of vipers to his baptisme HVTCH. It is expressed in the text that they came to be baptised because the text saith they came to his baptisme GREEN I denie the sequele of your argument your collection from the text I affirme to be vntrulie gathered for ad baptismum is not ad baptizandos that is to be baptised HVTCH. They came to his baptisme he repulsed them not what is this but that they were baptised GREENVV Baptisme is there vnderstood for Ihons whole ministration not onlie of the seale of baptisme but of his doctrine also HVTCH. Then they came to Ihons whole ministerie therfore to his baptisme seing his baptisme was a part therof GREEN Alter not the question I know they came to see all as vnworthy nearers seers but you must prooue that they were baptised HVTCH. They came to be baptised did they not GREEN This is not the question neither can you prooue that they came therfore I told you the last day Manie came to see a reed shaken with the winde some to cauill not to be either instructed or baptised But you must prooue that they were baptised els you say nothing HVTCH. I will take him in his owne words wrap them vp togeather thus he began to write with his owne hand M r. Hutchinson replieth that the words Ad baptismum suum cannot be otherwise vnderstood since that the exhortations follownig doth plainly declare they did offer themselues to be baptised he doth not bring yt to prooue that they were baptised but to force M r. Greenw to shew whither they were expulsed by Ihon cōsidering they made offer of themselues If 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may not be vnderstood of baptisme but of the other part of Ihons ministerie which was teaching exhortation as M r. Greenwood supposeth then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 GREEN You falsifie the scriptures wrest my words denie your former affirmation seeke by al meanes to intangle by setting on foote new questions I haue often prooued vnto you that their comming vnto Ihons ministerie as vnworthy beholders did not prooue they vvere baptised neither did I say that ad babtismum suum was vnderstood onlie of his doctrine but of his whole in ministerie wherof his baptisme was a part yet they were not baptised for coming to see him where you say you brought yt not to prooue they were baptised yt is mamanifestlie vntrue both by this our former conference Againe till you haue prooued that they were baptised you say nothing HVTCH. Mr. Hutchinson prooueth that they were baptised because Ihon saith afterward Ego baptizo vos GREENVV These words Ego baptizo vos are not spoken to those Pharifeis Saduces but generallie to such as Ihon baptised for yt followeth he that cometh after me c. shall baptise you with fire and the holie ghost Luke 3. Verses 15.16 which cannot be solely referred to the Phariseis though they had beene baptised but this is a summe of a seuerall doctrine HVTCH. Ihon Baptist in his exhortation saith vnto them vvho hath forwarned you to flye from the vvrath to come c. this sheweth they came to baptised GREEN Still you would alter the question neither doth this prooue that they were baptised or yet that they did repent But rather on the contrarie Ihon publisheth their obstinacie to all the people threatneth them with the iudgments of god D. BRI. They might repent vpon his exhortation so be babtised GREEN There is no mention that they did repent D. BRI. Yes these words which Mr. Hutchinson repeated Ego baptizo vos proueth yt GREEN I haue often shewed that those words are not spoken to them but to all such as were baptised by Ihon c. HVTCH. Ihon Baptist knew none of their conuersations before or after therfore he stirred them vp to bring forth fruite worthy repentance not that he see their fruites so me thnikes this that receauing of the Eunuch to baptisme so sodainlie doth teach vs not to debar anie from the sacramēts whatsoeuer their life hath beene yea though we knew yt not they offring themselues making declaration of faith GREEN In the true Church none can be debarred from the sacramēts that make with knowledg true confession of their sins promise obedience to the word of God to be ordered by Christs ordinances but I see no such confession made by these Pharises neither yet by your communicantes As for the Eunuche we shall shew an other manner of confession then the verball repetition of certaine
words vsed in your Church D. BRI. Why doe you thinke our people haue not made a true confession of their sins promised amendment publikelie c. GREEN No your parish assemblies were neuer receaued into the true faith to submit themselues vnto Christs ordinances by true cōfession with knowledg vnderstanding for that confession they made or make is but a verbal repetition of words as one might teach a parrat D. BRI. Some doe vnderstand what they say though all doe not will you forsake the Church because some are ignorant GREEN Neither doe those that vnderstand what they say bring forth fruits neither are they seperated from the vnbeleebers neither is that confession of words which anie of you haue made a sufficient confession to make you a Church but the most part are Atheists know not what they say D. BRI. What haue none of vs made a true confession of faith I neuer heard the whole profession we make denied before neither that the most part doe not know what they professe though I grant there be some such GREEN No not with amendment of life For you remaine one bodie with the infidels denie in deed the true profession practise of the gospell subiect your selues to the popish Courtes Cannons Heere we brake of in some displeasing wordes I desiring D. Bright to write if he would reason orderly He said he came but to beare Mr. Hutchinson companie Then I demanded of Mr. Hutchinson if he had brought all his proofes he had to prooue that the Phariseis mentioned in the 3 of Mathew were baptised he said yea I said then I would oppose what reason I had to proue the contrarie he said yt was preposterous yet he was contēt c. so I set downe two reasons thus GREEN In the 7 Chap. of Luke the 30. verse the holy ghost setteth downe that those Scribes Phariseis mentioned in the 3. of Mathew were not baptised 2. that Ihon Baptist ought not to call them generations of vipers whome he receaued to his baptisme HVTCH. The place of Luke is not to be vnderstood of those Phariseis mentioned Math. 3. GREEN Yes the verie doctrine yt self of our Sauiour Christ going before in the 7 of Luke is euident to be drawen from their contempt of Ihons ministerie Math. 3. HVTCH. Nichodemus beleeued manie other of the Phariseis GREEN Thats not the question The questiō is whether the Phariseis mentioned in the 3. of Mathew were baptised by Ihon or no Luke saith they were not baptised of him HVTCH. I will answere that of Luke take him in his owne wordes so he wrote with his owne hand thus M r. Hutchinson saith the 7. of Luke doth not prooue that these Phariseis mentioned Math. 3. or that none of the Phariseis were baptised The argument drawen from that place is of manie particulars the place of Luke is not generally but indefinitely conceiued Againe wheras Greenwood prooueth by the 7. of Luke that the Scribes Phariseis mentioned in the 3. of Math. came not to be baptised or vvhich is the other part or Ihons ministerie to heare his doctrine but to gaze on him to see him as a spectacle yt is contrarie to the words of Math. 3. ad baptismum suum And therfore the Phariseis mentioned in the 7 of Luke cannot be vnderstood of the Phariseis Math. 3. To the other that Ihon Baptist ought not to call them generatiō of vipers though yt need no answere yet yt is false because Christ calleth Peter Sathan his Disciples men of litle faith an vnfaithful nation Paule the Galatians Insensaios c. GREEN Whiles I was about to write myne answere to these things Mr. Hutchinson would needs be gone promising againe at his next cōming to prooue the Church of Rome the true Church so I was constrained to set downe myne answere after-wards which is this Our sauiour Christ in the of Luke setteth downe two sorts of people which came to Iohns ministerie the one of such as heard obeid his doctrine were baptised the other of such as heard saw but obeid not his doctrine neither were baptised Of which sort chiefly the Scribes Phariseis are note vnrepētant despisers Therfore I meruell Mr. Hutchinson could so falsifye my words to excuse himself of open error affirme that I should say the Phariseis did not heare but onlie gaze vpon him seing I said they did heare but did not obey neither were baptised Further in the 7 of Luke our Saviour speaking indefinitelie generallie of Ihons ministerie of the Phariseis contempt that they were not baptised of him yt were open contradiction to say they were baptised iniurie to the holie ghost except you can shew by expresse words that some of them were baptised by Ihon. As for Nichodemus he was not called to the faith by Ihon much lesse baptised by him To the last point Mr. Hutch his examples of Christs reproof of Peter or of his other Disciples c. as also Paules reprehensiō of the Galathians doth rather confirme my former assertions them infringe yt seing they were reprooued for the present cōmitting standing in sin not vpon their repentance So that still I affirme yt were contrarie to all the scriptures to call them generations of vipers who had publikelie made confession of their sin till they againe transgressed wherof there is no mention either of their conuersion or transgressing after the confession of these Phariseis Math. 3. But at the first this controuersie might haue beene ended with this that Ihon receaued none to be baptised but such as were wonne by doctrine made publike confession So that either the Phariseis were not baptised or els they repented thē heere is no shelter for Mr. Hutchinsons euasiō to prooue by then example that all the lād might in one day be receiued to their sacraments at the beginning of her Ma ts reigne without knowledg true conuersiō so remaine a Church of Atheists idolaters euer since God call forth his elect from this fellowship A summe of the conference had in the Fleet the 18. of the 3. moneth betwixt M r. Hutchinson D. Androes of the one partye and Henry Barrow close prysoner there on the other so neere as his frayle memorie could cary awaye THey being set downe in the parlor with one gentleman whō they brought with them three of theire owne seruants I being entered and come vnto them they desired me to sit downe with thē and that we might all be couered c. I demaunded to what end HVTCH. Your Chamberfellow Mr. Greenwood hath told you the cause of owr comming BAR. He told me that some had bene with him yesternight But told me not the cause of your comming vnto me this day HVTCH. We come to the same end to confer brotherly with you cōcerning certaine positions that you are sayd to hold Hauing Some his booke certaine articles of
of the Church ANDR. A Schismatick may depart from the Church and yet hold the faith BAR. They cannot hold the faith which forsake the fellowship of the faith ANDR. You speake ignorantly sondry Schismaticks haue not erred BAR. I speake truly as the holy ghost speaketh in the last verse of the 10. to the Hebr. But vve are not of the vvithdravving vnto destruction but of faith to the conseruation of our soule Here you see the keeping of the faith set opposite against the departing from the fellowship ANDR. Loking vppon my Testament 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vvithdrawing What is this to Schisme The place you would alledge is higher vp in the Chapter BAR. This is the place which I would now alledge what say you vnto it is not that withdrawing from the fellowship Schisme Can anie with-draw frō the fellowship and yet kepe the faith is there anie saluation out of the Church of saluation without faith ANDR. What is there none but a true faith neuer read you of anie other BAR. Yet acknowledg I but one faith as there is but one God c. which faith no Schismatick can haue and as for this false faith Deuills hereticks may also haue such faith But you will not say that an heretick doth hold the faith neither yet doth a Schismatick hold the faith ANDR. Do not hipocrits make a shew of faith and yet they haue no faith what faith is theirs BAR. There is no comparison betwixt hipocrits Schismaticks the one whilest he stadeth making shew of the true faith both by life profession so far as we can iudge the other making open breach of faith But after the hipocrite is once discouered I say then he also appeareth to haue no faith HVTCH. These are but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 strife about words shal we begyn to reason to some purpose BAR. If we may haue indifferent notaries that may iustly set downe what passeth on ech side so that we may eyther of vs haue a copie therof the better to expend consider of ech others reasons I am very willing at anie tyme or place so to reason HVTCH Here is one that can write and called one of his men BAR. He is no such wryter as I would haue Furder I would haue some witnesses because you are two I am but one ANDR. Rather then that shall be a hinderance I will goe vp reason with Mr. Greenwood and leaue you two togeather BAR. That is not my meaning I had rather you taried still Only because you are two I but one therfore your testimonie may the rather be taken against me Ynke paper being brought and manie entred into the Parlor we were first to set downe agree of a Prop. which after much discourse to fro M. Hutch set downe after this maner HVTCH. The parish Church of S t. Bride is a true Church to which anie Christian may ioyne in theire publique prayers and Sacraments as they are by lawe now established BAR. The Parish of your S t. Bride as it consisteth of a confuse multitude of all sorts of people mingled togeather in one body standing vnder a false ministerye in Idolatry disorder is not a true established Church of Christ and therfore not such as anie true Christian ought to ioyne vnto in theire prayers Sacraments as they stand in this estate Here Mr. Andros moued that seing the question was agreed vppon the time now far spent we might depart vntill an other tyme But I seing much companie gotten in and nothing more heard against me then this propositiō desired them to say somwhat vnto it in that tyme that remayned First therfore Mr. Androes found much fault with my proposition as disordered vnlearnedly set downe and therfore deserued no answere I sayd that if it were true it suffised me and vnlesse they could disproue it it must still stand in force against them Here we had also much adoe about owr order of reasoning whither it should be after their schole maner by Logicke or no. I desired to reason after a Christiā maner according vnto truth though not in logicall formes where after some discourse of the necessitie vanitie of the arte of logicke I said I would not bynde the maiestie of the Script to logicall formes whereabout we should haue more vaine cauilles and spēd more tyme thē about the discussing of the question and that my cōscience could neither be conuinced or instructed with anie syllogismes so much as with the weight of reason force of truth Wherefore at length they condiscending vnto me denied with one consent my whole proposition as false vntrue I also denied theire proposition as altogeather false and willed them to make profe of it But still vrdging me to proue myne I condiscended so to doo BAR. In my generall propositiō are cōteined fower principall heads Namely 1. The cōfuse commixture of al sorts of people 2. Theire antichristian vnlawfull ministerye 3 Theire false idolatrous maner of worshipping of God and of theire whole ministration both of the word and Sacraments c. 4. And theire popish antichristian order ecclesiasticall gouernmēt From all which seuerall heads infinite reasons may be drawne But because all these cannot be handled at once I will begyn with some one of them And as order requireth if it please you I will begin to shew that this people as they stand in these parishes in this confusion c. are not in this estate capable of the Sacramēts ministery of Christ. ANDR. Order requireth that you should rather begin to disproue owr ministerie first BAR. There must be sheepe before there be a flocke A flocke before there be a shepheard ANDR. A flocke a Shepheard are relatiues BAR. There must be a flocke before there can be a shepheard because the people must chuse the Pastor ANDR. That is a deuise of yours BAR. Will you call the Commandement of Christ my deuise HVTCH. Your whole proposition is denied proue that BAR. My proposition being so large I must begyn with some one part therof I will first therfore begin with the people of this parish BAR. Arg. 1. The people of this parish are a confuse companie of Infidells Idolatort ignorant prophane open vvicked Therfore no such communion to vvhich a Christian my ioyne in theire prayers sacraments in this estate ANDR. Infidells what Infidels Know you what Infidells are BAR. I take them to be vnbeleiuers such as haue no true faith ANDR. What because they haue no true faith therfore Infidells BAR. Yea because they haue no true faith therfore vnbeleeuers or Infidells HVTCH. We receaue no infidells into owr Church if you meane by Infidells 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without faith BAR. I meane by Infidells men without faith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 HVTCH. What know you what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is here it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 priuatiue BAR. And so I vnderstand it
men distitute of faith ANDR. Can you put no difference betwixt Infidells Idolaters what thinke you the Papists to be Infidells BAR. I know the word infidell to be more large yet hold I all Idolaters infidells and the Papists infidells because such grosse Idolaters ANDR. We thinke more reuerently of the Papists thē so though they be Idolaters BAR. But Moses Paul think so of all Idolaters though Israelites though Iewes though Apostataes Saying that what they offer they offer vnto Deuills Leuit. 17. Deut. 12. 1 Cor. 10. HVTCH. Will you call hipocrits Infidells Because we receaue some hypocrits therfore Infidells BAR. Hipocrits whilest they make hold the same profession and faith with vs cannot by vs be discerned or iudged by the Church vntill the Lord furder discouer them by breaking out into some error or transgression But infidells are such as eyther are neuer come or are fallen from the faith Of which sort I affirme all the people as they thus stand in your parishes to be HVTCH. ANDR. We denie that proue it BAR. They stand one with the world vncalled forth vnto the faith Therefore they are such ANDR. Wat new phrase is this stande one what meane you by stande one BAR. The phrase is not new but vsual through all the Scriptures I meane by standing one with the world that they remaine one body with the world the world with them vncalled forth vnto the faith c. HVTCH. ANDR. We denie it they stand not one with the world BAR. I thus proue it They stande one vvith this vvhole land vvith all the vvicked abhominable persons thereof Therfore they stand one vvith the vvorld HVTCH. ANDR. We denie both the Antecedent consequent BAR. In prouing the land to be of the world the Consequēt will of necessitie followe ANDR. We denie this land to be of the world BAR. That land people that are not truly called out gathered vnto Christ are still of the world For owr sauiour saith vnto his Disciples I haue chosen you out of the vvorld c. Ioh. 15. But this land hath not as yet bene truly called out gathered vnto Christ Therfore it is of the world and the world of it For I am sure it is neither holyer not better then Israell Iudea were at the comming of owr Sauiour HVTCH. ANDR. Our land is truly called gathered vnto Christ and so are the people of this parish BAR. Christs Church allwayes consisteth of a holy free people seperat from the vvorld rightly called gathered vnto Christ vvalking forth in faith obedience But the people of this Parish and generally of the land haue not as yet bene thus seperate from the vvicked of the land neither as yet bene thus gathered vnto Christ but stand mingled togeather vvith all the vvicked c. as theire present estate shevveth Therfore they are no people capable of the holy ministerie Sacraments of Christ c. HVTCH. ANDR. The people of this parish as also of the other parishes in the land haue bene are truly called vnto Christ neither is there anie open wicked receaued into or suffred in the Church BAR. Al the land at this day is of your Church vvithout the exception of anie one person But I am sure you vvill not say but there are manie vvicked in the land Therfore you are not seperate from the vvicked HVTCH. I know no such wicked as you speake of If you know anie you shall do well to complaine that they may be cast out BAR. Alas I know none other But whie were they thus receaued Or how should they be cast out ANDR. There were two cast out the last Sonday here in Londō Therfore we seperate the wicked and keepe them not amongst vs as you say BAR. And had you no more apparantly wicked but two worthie to be cast out HVTCH. ANDR. We know no more BAR. That is well I report me to all your Gaoles c. And were not these two cast out by the power of Antichrist by some Chancellor or Commissarie or some of that crewe ANDR. What if they were Bar. Then you cast out Sathan by the power of Sathan ANDR. Proue that BAR. That were to digresse from the present question which is not whome howe you now cast out but whom how you receaued and kepe in your Church which I affirme to be all the prophane multitude of the land without anie true seperation at the first and so you continue ANDR. That is not so I tell you we excommunicated two the last day Therfore we haue seperation HVTCH. We denie your Assertion we receiued not all or anie prophane into owr Church at anie tyme. BAR. In Q. Maries reigne all the land vvas fallen into open Apostacie and Idolatrie In this estate vvere they all found at the begynning of owr Q. Elizabeths reigne and so all at one instant vppon her first setting vpp this religion receiued into the body of your Church had this ministerie set ouer them these Sacraments administred vnto them c. in your Parishes as they novv stand Therfore all the prophane vvere receiued into your Church vvithout choise or seperation HVTCH. There were none then receaued but such as made true profession and we can neyther requyre nor discerne more BAR. They could make no true profession that had no knovvledge of the truth But the people that tyme had no knovvledge of the truth Therfore they could make no true profession so sodenlye HVTCH. They all had knowledg of the truth They repented and sorrowed for theire synnes as appeareth in the Confession BAR. Thus I proue that they had neyther true faith nor repentance None can haue true faith repentance but such as are called thervnto by the preaching of the gospell But all this people vvere receiued into your Church vvithout the preaching of the gospell going before Therfore they vvere receiued into your Church vvithout true faith repentance For all were receiued into your Church at one instant this ministerie at the first dash set ouer them all c. Here Mr. Androes began a large discourse that the Iewes had two maner of excommunications The one of the heathens the other of the Publicanes The one they banished from comming into theire Temple The other they suffred to come thither yet abhorred they theire companie conuersation in ciuile things And here would needs know of me which of these were the greater BAR. Your question is to no purpose neither is your assertion true The Iewes had not two kinds of excōmunication They did not excommunicate the heathen And in that they abhorred the companie of the Publicanes in ciuile conuersation whilest they admitted them to the Temple they synned ANDR. Let him be vnto thee as a beathen a Publicane Is ther not two kinde of excōmunications mentioned amongst the Iewes one to the heathen another vnto the Publicane BAR. No there is no excommunication of the Iewes mencioned The
vnto the ministrie and Sacramēts of Christ Neither could they make anie true or sincere confession without the preaching of the word going before to call them therevnto Vppon this issue we for that tyme ceased They affirming this verball confession in this maner sayd to be sufficient to enable all the people so saying it ouer And I for the reasons aboue said denying the same Mr. Hutchinson put vp the paper wherein these Arguments and propositions were wrytten into his bozome but promised me a Copie vvherevnto I condiscended so that vppon the next conference I might keepe the paper There arose cōtrouersie betwixt Mr. ANDR. me concerning these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He affirming them to be all one I to be very dyuerse the one signifying vicinity the other disiunction of habitations he alledging the ancyent vse And I both the ancient present affirming all to be corrupt Mr. Androes also in reasoning with me oft swore by his honestie for which I reproued him for swearing vnlawfully making his faith an Idole But he said I knew not what an oth or an Idole meant Mr. Androes also vsed this word Luck I sayed there was no fortune or luck but all things came to passe by the prouidence of God To prooue Luck he torned in my Testament to the 10. of Luke ver 31. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. And torned in a leafe vppon the place and as he was going out willed me to consider of it vvhich is no more then to come to passe although sodainly or vnloked for to vs yet by the direction prouidence of God vnto vs without which a sparrow falleth not vppō the ground So that though the heathens abused this word to chance fortune yet is it both contrary to Christian faith and not the first and proper signification of the word A summe of such cheif poynts as vvere handled in the second conferēce betwixt M r. Hutchinson Do. Androes on the one partie and Iohn Greenwood Henry Barrow prisoners in the Fleet on the other partie vppon the 13. of the 4. Moneth The discourse whereof orderly to set downe vve cannot all things were so disorderly handled therein by them who sought nothing so much as to obscure turne away the truth by theire schole learning manifold cauills shifts shameles denyall of manifest truthes most vnchristian contumelies scoffes reproches against owre persons 1. FIrst they hold by especially Do. Androes that the scriptures now ought not to decide controuersies because the scriptures cannot speake 2. That the scriptures ought to be iudged interpreted by the ancyent fathers wrytings not by other scriptures or the circumstances of the text 3. That because the spirits of the Prophets must be subiect to the Prophets therfore the wrytings of these dead men ought to iudge interpret the scriptures 4. That the scriptures ought to be interpreted expounded by Logick 5. That no man may preach the word or interpret scriptures but he that hath an office in the Church 6. Being pressed vvith Acts. 13. ver 15. And theire owne note vppon the same in theire Geneua Bible he vtterly reiected both that translation the notes therevppon saying yt vvas inhibited to be vsed in theire Church 7. They further said that Paul was a minister of that Synagogue because he was a Pharisey 8. There is no Church where there is no administracōn of sacraments Being pressed that the Pastor alone cannot make a Church neither that vppon the death or deposing of the Pastor at vvich tyme the Church for a season is vvithout sacraments as also that the host of the Israelites vvere a long tyme in the wildernes without sacraments they only answered vnto the last said that the Israelites vvere not without sacraments at anie tyme because they alwaies had the pillar of fire 9. Being shewed that this pillar was no sacrament of the couenant prescribed by God to be vsed of the Church they still affirmed that the Church could not be said to be without the sacraments whiles they had these Sacramentall signes 10. They held that Christ after his death descended into hell 11. Do. Androes indeuored to prooue it by Colos. 2. ver 15. because Christ is there said to haue triumphed ouer the principalities powers his consequent collection being denyed shewed to be a popish dreame to haue no groundworke or warrant from this place he sought to escape by denying the english translation which saith and hath tryumphed ouer them in the same cross because it is in some copies tryumphing them in himself 12. Being pressed that Christs spirit was in the hands of his father Luke 23.46 his bodie in the graue therfore he could not after his death descend into hell To this Do. Androes answered that his soule being in the hand of God might be in hell because the hād power of God was euery where Yt was then said that Christs soule was in paradise that all the soules of the blessed were then by that reason in hell aswell as his yea Christ his soule now might so be said to be in hel likewise because the power of God is euery where But Christ having finished all his suffrings performed them vppon his crosse Iohn 19. had now nothing to do in hell There remayned an Argument at our last conference without answere which was this None can be called to a true profession of faith vvithout the preaching of the gospell going before But all the people in these parishes vvere receaued into your Church vvithout the preaching of the gospell going before Therfore they vvere receaued vvithout a true profession 13. Do. Androes here denyed the minor said the people were not receaued into theire Church had the sacramēts delyuered vnto them before they had bene taught half a yeare Being demaunded what the people in the meane while were to be esteemed whether faithfull or idolatrous whether mēbers or not members of theire Church he said they were neither to be esteemed faithfull nor vnbelieuers neither members nor not members but they where all this while in membring 14. Being demaunded what those preachers were to be esteemed whither ministers or not ministers vnto this people they answered that they were ministers Argument 1. There can be no minister but vnto a flocke But here by your ovvne saying vvas no flocke at this tyme Therfore these could be no ministers vnto them 15. They here denyed the Maior affirmed that there may be a minister without a flocke Argument 2. A shepheard can be no shepheard ouer goates or svvyne but only ouer sheepe The ministerie of Christ cānot be set ouer infidells or ouer anie people to take chardge or cure ouer them vntill those people be called vnto haue made profession of the faith But here the people vvere not as then called vnto neither had made profession of the faith Therfore the ministerie of Christ could not
all his Children and hath gyuen to vs his holy Spirit to help owr infirmities to teach vs to pray according to his will in his worde we are also there taught That we neede no man to teach vs but as the same anoyntinge teacheth vs of all things moreouer we finde not anie such deuised prayers or stinted seruice perscribed to the Church by those excellēt perfect workemen Thappostles neyther yet anie Commaundment or authoritie gyuē by thē vnto the church to make bring in ympose or receiue anie such stinted deuised Apochripha seruice where only the worde of God the graces of Gods spirit ought to be heard For these causes we esteeme refuse all such deuised Liturgies as superfluous will not worshipp inuentiōs traditions of men besids contrary to Gods reuealed worde to the graces of Gods Spirite to owr Christian libertie Wherfore we wonder at the ignorance of theise blynde Pharesies which knowing neither the right ende vse nor meanes of prayer thēselues yet dare in this maner teach correct quench the Spirit of God in others by ymposing the chaffe leauen of their own lypps vppon the whole Church yea as a sacryfice vppon God himself will he nyl he Article 3. They teache their is no head or Supreame gouernor of the Church of Christ And that the Queene hath none authoritie in the Church to make lawes Ecclesiasticall WE hold Christ to be the only heade of his Church the greatest Princes in the world to be but members of his Church We hold her Maiestie to be supreame gouernor of al persons estats causes whatsoeuer with in her Dominiōs We renounce the Pope all popishe iurisdictions ouer eyther Conscience Queene or Contrye and we acknowledg no other Prince potentate or power forreigne or Domestical Ecclesiasticall or Ciuill to haue anie superiour or equall authoritie within her Maiesties Dominions We hold Christ to be the only Lawgyuer in his Church and that he hath already beinge the Sonne as faithfull in his howse as his seruant MOSES in his Tabernacle established sufficient Lawes for the gouerment of his Church vnto the worlds end in his last will Testament which no Prince nor all the Princes in the world nor the whole Church may alter add vnto or take from vppon the paynes contayned in the Scriptures But both Prince people ought with all their endeuour as farr as the Lorde hath gyuen them knowledge meanes to put the same in execution Article 4. They teache that a lay man may beget faith And that vve haue no neede of publique administration WE know not what you meane by your old popish termes of lay men we holde al true beleyuers Ecclesiasticall spirituall yea and that anie such beleyuer may beget faith and for euident proofe thereof referr you to these places of scripture Luke 10.1 c. Luke 8.39 Acts. 8.4 Acts 11.19 c. Acts. 18.26 1 Corin. 14. entier 1 Corinth 7.16 Phil. 2.15.16 1 Pet. 3.2 1 Pet. 4.10 2 Tim. 2.2 1 Thessa. 5.11 c. Iam. 5.19.20 which shall eyther instruct of cōuince your herein Yet hold we the publique administracōn of the word by PASTORS TEACHERS and the PROPHETS in the church by far without all comparyson more excellent more blessed more to be desired and iudg your synne and iniquitie by so much the more heynouse and euen come to the full in that you so bitterly with all your gall and spyte resist the holy ghost by hindring vs his seruants from proceeding to so heauenly gracious a meanes of owr saluation and earnestly with all your forces oppose your selues against God in that you will neither enter your selues into his kingdome nor suffer such as would Article 5. They condemne all comming to Churche all preaching all Institution of Sacraments and say that all the Ministers are sent by God in his anger to deceaue the people THe Lord condemneth and we according to his Commaundement shunne all false Churches false deceitfull preaching and false Institutions of Sacraments and we belieue as the Lord hath said that all false Ministers are sent of God in his wrath to deceaue the people of which sorte we protest your publique parrish assemblies as they stand in this Confusion disorder and Idolatrie your publique preaching Sacraments and ministrie to be and are ready by the manifest euidence of Gods vndoubted word to approue the same to your faces it anie Christian audience or indifferent tryall might be granted Article 6. They affirme that the people must reforme the Church and not tarye for the Magistrate And that the Primatiue Churche sued not to Courts or Parliaments nor vvayted vppon Princes pleasures But vve make Christ to attend vppon Princes to be Subiect to their lavves and gouernment WE goe not about to reforme your Romish Bisshopricks Deanes officers Aduocates Courts Cannons neither your popish Priests halfe-Priests Ministers all which come out of the bottomlesse pytt But we leaue those merchantmen their wares with the curse of God vppon them vntill they repent We are also taught in the word that the kingdome of God commeth not by obseruation neither is brought in by the arme of flesh but by the spirit of God and by the power of his worde working in the harts of all Christs faithfull seruants true repentance from deade workes and all things that displease the Lord euen as sone as they are reproued vnto them by his worde as also a true conuersion of theire harts and soules vnto the Lord with an earnest loue continuall zeale and ready desire to put in practise what soeuer the Lord sheweth them to be his will in his worde without all delaye or excuse whosoeuer forbyd or Commaunde the contrary We are to obey God rather then men and if anie man be ignorant let him be ignorant stil We are not to stay from doing the Lords Commaundement vppon the pleasure or offence of anie Article 7. That the Booke of common prayer is a pregnant I dole and full of abhominations a peice of Svvynes flesh and abhomination to the Lorde WE haue shewed in owr answeare to your second Article what we thinke of all Apocrypha deuised Liturgies when they are brought into emposed vppon the Church But seinge you are so zealous for the syluer shryne of your DIANA and wayle for your Portuise we affirme it to be as you report a PREGNANT IDOLE which hath in it an infinite sorte of Idols is full of abhominations bytter fruite As may appeare by the double Idols of your solempne double feasts of your hollomass Christmass Candlemass Easter Whitsontyde Trynitie sonday c. Your Lady dayes Saints dayes with the Eaues feasts fasts and deuised worshipp vnto them which fill a great part of your booke Also your lents Rogacōns ash-wensdayes with the bitter cursings