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A35667 Truth outweighing error, or, An ansvver to a treatise lately published by J.B. entituled, A confession of his faith and a reason of his practice, or, With who he can, and with who he cannot hold church-fellowship ... by John Denne ... J. D. (John Denne) 1673 (1673) Wing D1027; ESTC R11873 57,462 128

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c. were accepted as Church-members in general and so of every Church in particular and that even upon their Baptism although this Anti-Baptism would have you believe that in the second of the Acts Baptism and adding to the Church appear to be two distinct things whom I would have remember Solomon his advice Prov. 30.6 Add thou not to his words lest he reprove thee and thou be found a lyar But John Bunyan is now grown positive and confidently saith pag. 76. Take it again Baptism makes thee no member of the Church neither particular nor universal neither doth it make thee a visible Saint It therefore gives thee neither right to nor being of Membership at all Answ Here is a brave flourish but an impudent assertion contrary to truth but no marvel that you find him contrary to truth who is contrary to almost all Christians yea to himself and that often in one little Book Wherefore although he excludes Baptism so utterly as to say it doth not make us members at all yet I shall affirm that Baptism in a sense yea in a great measure doth make us Church-members which also J. Bunyan doth confess and that from the Example of the Primitive Saints For he acknowledgeth pag. 70. That in the Primitive times Baptism was administred upon Conversion yea he further grants pag. 91. That in the Apostles dayes Water-Baptism went before Church-Membership Now that which was administred upon the Conversion of Persons yea before they were Church-members and thereupon to be accounted Church-members which John Bunyan in his right mind is forced to acknowledge of Baptism sure must be said in a great measure to make us Church-members and Baptism being so administred in the Primitive times is it not necessary it should be so now Can we alter the Primitive manner of receiving into the Church without being guilty of great iniquity ought we not to follow the Examples of the Primitive Churches Since I have proceeded thus far having now the appearance of so good grounds I shall through God's assistance adventure to prove the necessity thereof not being at all affrighted with J. Bunyan's opprobrious censures wherein if I should affirm Baptism to be an initiating Ordinance it would appear to be true by John Bunyan's own Confession Arg. 1. For that which ought to be administred upon Conversion before Church-membership is an initiating Ordinance But Baptism ought to be administred before Church-membership upon Conversion Ergo. The Major I suppose none will deny the Minor I prove thus Arg. 2. If Baptism was so administred in the Primitive Churches Then it ought to be so now But Baptism was so administred in the Primitive Churches Ergo. The Minor is J. Bunyan's own grant pag. 70. pag. 91. The Major is proved 1 Thess 4.1 where the Apostle beseecheth and exhorteth and that by the Lord Jesus That Saints should walk as we have received from them yea in 2 Thess 3.6 he commands the Churches in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ to with-draw from every one that walketh so disorderly viz. not according to the Traditions of the Apostles Again Is not Baptism called Heb. 5.12 Chap. 6.1 2. one of the first Principles of the Oracles of God a Principle of the Doctrine of Christ part of the Foundation and what is that but an initiating or entring Ordinance Is not the laying the foundation of an house a great entrance to the building So is Baptism in the practice of Christianity And are not the first Principles in any Matter or Doctrine the initiating or entring thereinto The same is Baptism as aforesaid in Christianity I might evidently set forth that it may truly be so called but leaving that denomination I shall touching the Controversie in hand state this Proposition viz. That Baptism is a duty necessarily to be observed by Christians in obedience to God and in order to Church-Communion I say necessarily to be observed for some things are lawful for a Christian but not expedient Some things again are expedient but not necessary but other things are necessary and must be done of which sort is Baptism This Christ himself testifieth Matth. 3.15 Thus it behooveth us mark he speaketh not particularly of himself but also of his followers us And also he saith Thus it behoveth Oportet nos we must do thus to fulfil God's righteous Commands When Paul was miraculously converted he was Commanded by the Lord to go into the City and there it should be told him what he must do Acts 9.6 and what that was appears from the words of Ananias rehearsed by Paul himself Acts 22.16 Arise and be baptized This Peter sheweth the necessity of 1 Pet. 3.21 by a figurative demonstration speaking of the Ark of Noah Wherein few that is eight Souls were saved by Water The like figure whereunto saith he Baptism doth also now save us Surely the Ark was so necessary for their Salvation viz. their preservation from death that only they that were therein were saved and the Apostle tells you Baptism is the like but as he afterwards explains not the putting away the filth of the flesh but the answer of a good Conscience towards God Now how necessary a good Conscience is and how much to be pressed after I think I need not tell you and Baptism is the answer of a good Conscience towards God it is so venerable an Ordinance notwithstanding John Bunyan is pleased to slight it saying pag. 104. We are not the better if we do it or the worse if we do it not not the better saith he before God nor the worse before men That those who are subject thereto are said Luk. 7.29 to justifie God what greater applause can men have and on the contrary those that do not submit thereto reject the Counsel of God against themselves and must not this be concluded to be a necessary duty yea surely it was Commanded by Christ himself Matth. 28.19 to be administred to all Disciples Disciple all Nations baptizing them c. teaching them that are so baptized to observe the same vers 20. in the performance whereof Christ hath promised his continual Presence wherefore Peter gave this counsel to the distressed Jews Act. 2.38 that cried out in great terror What shall we do Repent and be baptized every one of you As this was his advice to the distressed so also it was to those that received the holy Spirit plentifully Acts 10.48 He commanded them to be baptized in the Name of the Lord. It seems it is an Ordinance meet to be observed by all sorts of Christians the Jayler and his house Acts 16.33 Lydia and her house vers 15. Crispus and his house Acts 18.8 Samaria Acts 8.12 the Eunuch vers 38. yea all without exception that gladly received the Word were baptized and thereupon added to the Church Acts 2.41 I might be large herein but John Bunyan hath spared my labour for he yields the case and confesseth pag. 122 123. That Baptism is an holy
in vain thus God deals with men whereof he complains Isa 49.4 I have laboured in vain I have spent my strength for nought and in vain Insomuch that in justification of himself against John Bunyan and such others he appeals to his Enemies in the case viz. Judge I pray you what could I have done more for Sinners than I have done Isa 5.4 I have given my Son to redeem them from death and in him I have also offered them Eternal Salvation which I have invited them to imbrace and also endeavoured to effect in their hearts by the motions of my holy Spirit for the operation whereof I have waited even until I perceived all my endeavours to be in vain my Spirit is resisted and in despite thereof they have persisted in wickedness wherein what could I have done more or what can I now do save only bewail their folly in that they should so against my will forsake their own mer●●●●… Jona 2.8 and that also the Lord frequently doth he grieveth for the destruction of Sinners Jer. 4.19 My bowels my bowels I am pained at my very heart Not that God hath Bowels or an Heart like men but the bowels of the Father are his tender mercies and great compassion being unwilling to punish For the Lord doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the Children of Men Lam. 3.33 It is hard with the Lord viz. against his good pleasure How saith he shall I give thee up O backsliding Ephraim How shall I deliver thee to death O sinful Israel How shall I make thee as Adama How shall I set thee as Zeboim My heart is turned within me my repentings are kindled together Hos 11.8 Thus the Son of God being like unto his Father in compassion when he beheld Jerusalem Luk. 19.41 42. he wept over it because they would not know the things that belong to their peace he was grieved for the hardness of their hearts Mark 3.5 wishing it had been otherwise O that thou hadst hearkned to my Commandments Isa 48.18 O that Israel had walked in my wayes Psa 81.16 What great compassion is this what demonstrations of love are here When Jesus wept for Lazarus Joh. 11.35 The Jews looked upon it as a great demonstration of love and is it not so in God towards Sinners When David wept after Abner's Bier and bewailed him it is said 2 Sam. 3.37 That all Israel understood that day that the death of Abner was not of the King but far contrary to his mind And surely also we may conclude from what hath been alleaged that the death of Sinners is not of our God he never determined any such thing neither is he any ways the cause thereof it is far from him whereby as we may perceive the death of Sinners is altogether of themselves and not by or through God's blinding them So the order of his Election may be perceived contrary to John Bunyan's Faith the Confession whereof I have now done with having offered thus much because that God is much dishonoured and many People deceived through the not understanding these things I come now to the Reason of his Practice in Worship J.B. pag. 48. Wherein he first distinguisheth between those with whom he dares not have Communion and those with whom he dares have Communion with I suppose he means Concerning what he saith touching those with whom he dare not have Communion I shall leave him unto himself only take notice That those who do not profess Faith and Holiness yea the open Prophane may be nearer Heaven than those that pretend great Zeal without Knowledge Our Saviour said of old Matth. 21.31 That the Publicans and Harlots enter into the Kingdom of God before you But I shall now consider what J. B. saith concerning whom he dare which he thus declares I dare have Communion yea Church-Communion with those that are visible Saints by calling with those that by the Word of the Gospel have been brought over to Faith and Holiness pag. 65. Although as afterwards he declares as well as in his Title Page they dissent about Water-Baptism Answ If J. Bunyan had only said this I know not who would have gainsaid nay if he had told us that he could have Communion with the Church of Rome I know not who would have opposed him except the Catholicks themselves who peradventure considering the Errors of his Faith would not judge him fit for Communion with them But John Bunyan proceeds to perswade others to do the same and therefore he urgeth greatly the reason of his Practice to draw Disciples after him I wish the event be not as Christ said to the Pharisees Matt. 23.15 Ye compass Sea and Land to make one Proselyte and when he is made ye make him twofold more the Child of Hell But before we judge let us hear him speak let us weigh what is said therein I readily perceive he hath learned what Solomon saith Prov. 1.17 That in vain is the Net spread in the sight of any Bird Wherefore by crafty insinuations and subtile evasions he endeavoureth to darken Counsel the better to undermine the hearts of the weak that his deceit might not be discovered Wherefore not suddenly coming to the matter he endeavoureth by fair pretences although mixt with tautologies and incongruous relations to pre-engage the Reader Quest And then at length propounds this question pag. 70. By what rule would you receive him into Fellowship To which he answers himself thus Even by a discovery of their Faith and Holiness and their declaration of willingness to subject themselves to the Laws and Government of Christ in his Church Quest This answer being given he offers a second question viz. But do you not count that by Water-Baptism and not otherwise that being the initiating and entring Ordinance they ought to be received into Fellowship To this he presumes to answer No Answ If I understand this answer it denies Baptism to be a discovery of Faith and Holiness or a declaration of willingness to subject to the Laws of Christ in his Church for the Question is Do you not count that by Water-baptism c. which must have respect to the former description of his Rule wherein it seems Water-Baptism hath now no part and in truth it must be so excluded by J. Bunyan's opinion for otherwise that in despight of what he hath said would be the Rule proposed by himself But herein hath not John Bunyan forgot himself Pag. 64. he acknowledgeth Water-baptism to be an Ordinance of Christ a holy Ordinance a duty enjoyned to such as have received the Gospel before yet now he denies it to be a discovery of Faith and Holiness or a declaration of willingness to subject to the Laws of Christ in his Church pag. 122 123. What impudent Contradictions are here an Ordinance of Christ an holy Ordinance a duty enjoyned to Gospel-Receivers and yet no discovery of Faith Is not Faith discovered by Works Jam. 2.17 And by what works if not obedience to
failer must be in a Circumstance for which he ought not to be judged Answ To all this I must answer in the words of Paul Acts 13.10 Oh! full of all subtilty and mischief wilt thou not cease to pervert the right wayes of the Lord Were not the Galatians and Philippians to whom the Apostle wrote Church-members and baptized by thy own confession Did the Apostle in any of his Epistles avoid Baptism in reference to Church-Communion or count it such a Circumstance as thou dost Did not Paul exalt it even to the Galatians Chap. 3.27 where he demonstrates their Faith thereby For saith he as many as have been boptized into Christ have put on Christ Can the Evangelical Precepts be enjoyned without it Was it ever said that in Christ Jesus Baptism or no Baptism availeth not Was it ever said in Scripture in Christ Jesus no outward or circumstantial thing but a new Creature Is not this contrary to the Rule of the Apostles Why art thou so bold to pervert the right ways of the Lord as to conclude Baptism which hath been proved a Principle a first Principle of the Doctrine of Christ a necessary Duty to be no initiating Ordinance no nor the visible Character of a Saint no breach in a good and holy life What is not obedience to Christ to an holy Ordinance to a Duty enjoyned a character of a Saint yea a visible character is not the contrary a breach some breach at least in a good and holy life Surely if thy senses were not stupified thou wouldst never deny it nor once mention for justification thereof that disobedience to Baptism intrencheth upon no man's right but his own What is Infidelity is it not a horrid sin But saith John Bunyan Whose right doth it intrench upon but their own The God of Heaven saith Isa 3.9 Wo unto their Soul they have rewarded evil to themselves But J.B. sayes His Faith may be effectual without it and his Life approved by the worst of his Enemies Touching his Faith let the God of Heaven answer 1 Joh. 2.3 He that sayeth he knoweth me and keepeth not my Commandments is a lyar And concerning his Life I must say with the Apostle 2 Cor. 10.18 Not he that commendeth himself is approved but whom the Lord commendeth Wherefore if he may keep the Law as thou sayest know it is not the Law of Christ for that requires Baptism and therefore no circumstantial as the failer therein must not be judged and therefore in this place the Objection offered by thy self pag. 91. is well placed viz. But notwithstanding all that hath been said Water-Baptism ought to go before Church-membership shew me one in all the New-Testament that was received into Fellowship without it Answ Sure J. Bunyan when thou didst Pen this Objection thy craft deceived thee and thou didst not see how thou hast ensnared thy self What answer canst thou make John Bunyan will say he hath a ready answer which consists in two parts First saith he pag. 91. that Water-Baptism hath formerly gone first is granted but that it ought of necessity so to do I never saw proof Secondly he saith None ever received it without Light c. Reply First John Bunyan here confesseth That Water-Baptism went before Church-membership in the Primitive Times Well said John Bunyan thou hast given away the Cause and overthrown thy self If it did so then sure it must now for we are to walk according to their Examples Phil. 3.17 It seems God is stronger and wiser too than the Devil he hath made a hedge about Water-baptism that it should not be violated but instead thereof acknowledged for truth even by its Enemies But John Bunyan saith He never saw it proved to be of necessity Answ What John Bunyan how now did the Apostles practise generally what they ought not sure in plain terms thou wilt not say so and if not so it was their duty and there was necessity for them to do their duty But then secondly John Bunyan saith None ever received it without Light going before Answ See if this man be not stupified in his senses whilst he contends against the Truth for he hath lost the matter in question Who ever pretended that any received Baptism upon good grounds without light in it The question is not who have Light therein but who ought to have Light therein viz. Whether it is the duty of Christians before Church-membership to be baptized Wherein for Answer I will offer John Bunyan's own words Baptism saith he pag. 122. is a Duty enjoyned to those who receive the Gospel Again pag. 82. In the Primitive times it was generally practised first viz. before Church-Communion yea so as the unconverted themselves knew it belonged to the Disciples of Jesus Christ What can we have more than is here acknowledged Surely if it was so generally practised before Communion in the Primitive Churches it ought to be so now Did the unconverted then know it was the duty of Christ's Disciples to be baptized as aforesaid and must it be questioned now by John Bunyan or any pretending themselves Christians Was it then a duty enjoyned to those that receive the Gospel and is it not so now surely yea It may from hence be hoped that John Bunyan is become a new man and repents what he pretends in the beginning of his Book But stay he is presently of another mind for he again saith pag. 82. That all that were received into Fellowship were even then baptized first would strain a weak man's wit to prove if Arguments were closly made from these three Texts of holy Scripture 1 Cor. 1.14 Gal. 3.27 Rom. 6.3 What John Bunyan art thou so unstable I now understand plainly that Text of Scripture Jam. 1.8 A double-minded man is unstable in all his wayes for he that wavereth is like a Wave of the Sea driven with the wind and tossed even so is this man who in the same page of a little Treatise confesseth Baptism to be a general Practice in the Primitive times before Communion and yet again saith it would strain a weak man's wit to prove it But surely John Bunyan means a Fool that knoweth not to prove any thing and such a one as he cannot in John Bunyan's apprehension maintain will never hurt the practice of Baptism otherwise it may be proved from his own Confession if that be worth any thing But it seems that may be contradicted if Arguments were closly made upon the aforementioned Texts wherein I shall advise John Bunyan since he thinks so the next time he meddleth in the derogation of Baptism to make his Arguments from them But Sir if you do pray according to your own words do them more closly than you have already otherwise your fallacy will be discovered and your Arguments fall to the ground But I perceive he is willing as he saith pag. 82. To pass those Texts at present and instead of making Arguments thence-from pretends that if we can shew the
Text saith no such thing and John Bunyan himself hath often acknowledged Baptism of Water to be an Holy Ordinance of Christ pag. 123. generally practised pag. 92. And then if one Baptism what other but that one viz. Baptism of Water so generally practised by all Disciples He will tell us the Baptism of the Spirit for by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body To which I answer The Baptism of the Spirit was not general and so could not be intended by one Baptism Secondly It is not meant in the aforesaid Text which saith by not with one Spirit for in truth those that are baptized with Water are by one Spirit in one Faith having one Hope in one Lord even one God and Father of all baptized with one viz. Water Baptism into one Body and Fellowship which ought therefore to be kept free from John Bunyan's mixture His Third Reason follows pag. 97. viz. I am bold therefore to have Communion with such because they also have the Doctrine of Baptisms I say the Doctrine of them For here you must note I distinguish between the Doctrine and Practice of Water-baptism c. they have the best of Baptisms the heart of Water-baptism the Doctrine of Water-baptism and want only the Sign the outward Circumstance which is forborn for want of Light Answ Oh Lord what delusions are here Righteous art thou in sending strong delusions upon them that receive not the love of the truth 2 Thess 2.10 11. John Bunyan hath received Baptism but what love he hath thereto appears by his words wherefore no marvel that his mind is blinded and his understanding darkned that he might believe lyes and deceive himself with fallacies as he doth in the aforementioned Reason where he tells us of some of his Proselytes that have the Doctrine of Baptism but do not practise it because they want Light therein What a Contradiction is this if they want Light they cannot have the Doctrine if they have the Doctrine they must have Light so far as to know it and therefore John Bunyan's distinction between the Doctrine and Practice of Water-baptism will nothing avail We readily allow that and oftentimes find that many have the Doctrine although not without light without the Practice whom it seems are such as John Bunyan is bold to have Communion with He may well say Bold for he hath no Scripture-warrant for it and it is a great boldness to adventure in Church-Communion beyond what is written yea contrary to what is written for our Saviour saith Luk. 12.47 He that knew his Lord's will that had the Doctrine of a Duty and prepared not himself to Practise neither did according to his will shall be beaten with many stripes And as such as neglect their duty are thus threatned so evil is declared to persecute those that teach men so and encourage them therein Matth. 5.19 wherein what John Bunyan may expect I wish him seriously to consider he seems pag. 122. to be conscious to himself that some might judge him guilty thereof whose mouths he would stop by his Equivocations c. but at the last day such things will stand in no stead Reas 4. I come now to his fourth Reason pag. 99. I am bold to hold Communion with visible Saints as aforesaid viz. unbaptized because God hath Communion with them whose Example in the case we are streightly Commanded to follow Receive you one another as Christ Jesus hath received you saith Paul Rom. 15.1 6. to the Glory of God yea though they be Saints of Opinions contrary to you though it goeth against the mind of them that are strong we that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak What Infirmities saith John Bunyan Those that are natural are incident to all they are infirmities then that are sinful all such infirmities are laid upon Christ pag. 100. wherefore vain man think not by the streightness of thy order in outward and bodily conformity to outward and shadowish Circumstances that thy peace is maintained with God for peace with God is by Faith in the blood of his Cross who hath born the reproaches and errors of you both Thou errest in a Substance he erreth in a Circumstance upon whom must these errors fall pag. 101. Must they for this be cast out of the Church No These are all yea those reproaches wherein the wisdom of Heaven is reproached are fallen upon Christ pag. 102. wherefore God hath received him Christ hath received him wherefore do ye receive him There is more solidity in this Argument than if all the Churches of God had received him Will any say we cannot believe that God hath received any but such as are baptized I will not suppose a Brother so stupified and therefore to that I will not answer Answ In the answer to this long Reason wherein John Bunyan hath run himself out of breath Consider first That those Scriptures alleaged by John Bunyan nothing concern the matter in hand for they were written to baptized persons by his own Confession pag. 92. as also appears by the Apostle's words Rom. 6.3 4. Secondly That receiving there spoken of doth not intend the receiving into Fellowship for that was already done but a holy reception in the bowels of love and tender-heartedness that so with one mind and with one mouth thy might glorifie God Chap. 15.6 whereto they are perswaded from the consideration of God's bounty and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ extended to them Wherefore concerning unbaptized persons as the Apostle doth not speak of them or intend them in reference to Church-Communion I might now pass them by as being nothing concerned in those words of the Apostle aforementioned by John Bunyan But since he so much boasts of their Communion with God I will answer in the Apostle's words 1 Cor. 5.12 What have I to do to judge them that are without I shall leave them to the Judgment of God to whom they must either stand or fall only advising all such to make their Calling and Election sure 2 Pet. 1.10 not trusting to John Bunyan's words who would sow pillows under their arm-holes but walk according to the Rule of the Holy Scripture and then the Church will have Fellowship with them and God hath promised what they shall bind or loose on Earth Matth. 18. shall be bound or loosed in Heaven God himself hath great respect to his Church But to return If I should grant that God hath Communion with many of them is not John Bunyan strangely stupified as to reason from thence yea to account it an Argument of so great solidity that the Church ought therefore to have Communion with them Hath not God Communion wi●h many that the Church may not have Communion with The Apostle speaks Rom. 2.14 of some Gentiles which having not the Law were a Law unto themselves who did shew the work of the Law written in their hearts With such persons surely God had Communion for he did