the wisdome of thy God that is in thine hand set Iudges and arbiters which may iudge all the people that is beyonde the riuer euen all that knowe the Lawe of thy God and teache yee them that knowe it not And whosoeuer will not doe the Lawe of thy God and the Kings lawe let him haue iudgement without delay whether it be vnto death or to banishment or to confiscation of goods or to imprisonment Esra 7. verse 25 26. And least any should take exception against Artaxerxes commaundement Ezra cleareth it of all suspition of vnlavvfulnesse in these vvordes Blessed bee the Lorde God of our fathers which hath inclined the Kings heart to beautifie the House of the Lorde that is in Ierusalem Ezra 7. verse 27. Augustine the Bishoppe of Hippo in Africke vvas a very famous man hee vvas sometimes of opinion that heretiques vvere to bee pressed by argument and not by the Magistrate his reason then vvas Ne fictos Catholicos haberemus quos apertos hereticos noueramus That is least vvee should haue them counterfait Catholiques whome wee knewe to bee notorious heretiques But after weightie consideration hee chaunged his former opinion and is very resolute that Recusants may and ought to bee compelled by the Magistrate August Epist. 48. 204. Siterrerentur non docerentur improba quasi dominatio videretur Sed rursus Si docerentur non terrerentur c. August Epist. 48. that is to punish and not to teach were tyrannie againe to teach and not to punish were to harden them in their auncient custome and to make them slowe to enter the path of saluation Exi in vias sepes compelle intrare Luke 14. Qui compellitur quò non vult cogitur sed quùm intrauerit iam volens pascitur August Epist 204. that is Go out into the high wayes and hedges and compell them to come in he that is compelled is compelled to enter against his will but when hee is entred hee is fedde willingly Ad caenam tanti patrisfamilias si sponte non vultis intrare compellimus August contra 2. Gaudentij Epist lib. 2. cap. 28. that is to the supper of so great an householder if you wil not of your owne accord we compell you to enter Quod autem vobis videtur inuitos ad veritatem non esse cogendos c. August contra 2. Gaudentij Epist lib. 2. cap. 17. That is where as yee thinke that men are not to bee compelled to the Trueth against their vvilles yee erre not knovving the Scriptures nor the povver of GOD vvhich maketh those vvilling though they bee compelled against their willes Qui phreneticum ligat lethargicum excitat ambobus molestus ambos amat Aug. Epist 48. That is he that bindeth a frantike man and awaketh him that hath the lethargy loueth both though he be grieuous to both 2. A GODLY PRINCE MAY not suffer any religion but the true religion either publikely or priuately in his Dominions THe exercise of false religion is directly against the sanctification of the Lords Sabboth Exo. 20. therefore the Prince may not at any hande suffer it The Morall lawe as it teacheth the worship of Almightie God in the first and honestie of life in the second table of the commandements is perpetuall and bindeth vs vnto the worldes ende The Israelites being in captiuitie in Egypt were required by Pharao to sacrifice to Almightie God in Egypt Moses refused c. Exod. 8. The Israelites being in captiuitie in Babylon were required by the Chaldeans to sing one of the songs of Sion They refused and answered thus How shall we sing the Lords song in a strange land Psal 137. Of these places I gather my argument thus It was not lawfull to sacrifice in Egypt and to sing the Lords song in Chaldea which were polluted landes therefore it is not lawfull to suffer Idolatrous popish seruice in Englād which is a holy land That professed papists are Idolaters it is manifest first they worship false gods for they worship Angels and Saintes deceased which are no gods Secondly they worshippe not the true God aright for they doe not worship him according to his written worde Confession consent in the true religion is Vinculum ecclesiae the chaine and bond of Gods Church for the Apostle saith there is but one faith Ephe. 4.5 therefore dissension and difference in religion is a dissolutiō of Gods Church But no prince may haue any either hand or litle finger in dissoluting Gods Church for Kings and Queenes are the nursing fathers and mothers of the Church Esai 4.9 It is the Princes duetie to prouide for the safetie of the bodies therefore much more for the safety of the soules of his subiects If for the safetie of their soules then they may not suffer them to poyson their soules True religion is the foode of the soule It is but one To swarue from that is the bane of the soule It leadeth to hell The Shipmaster and shepheard must keepe his shippe and sheepe from rocke and wolfe Qui non scruat si potest periturum occidit The prince is bounde to serue the Lord in feare Psal 2. therefore he may not suffer almightie God to be dishonoured by any of his subiects God is notably dishonoured when false worship is suffered either publikely or priuately The Angel of the Church of Pergamus is reproued by Christ for hauing such in Pergamus as maintained the doctrine of Balaam and the doctrine of the Nicolaitans which God hated The Angel of the Church of Thyatira is reproued by Christ for suffering Iezabel c. to teach and to deceiue Apocal. 2. therfore Princes sinne grieuously which suffer the exercise of a false religion A godly prince may not suffer a wilfull breach of his owne lawes therefore not of Gods lawes Almightie God is greater then all Princes His lawes doe as farre passe the princes as the gold of Ophir the clay in the street Besides they which hate Gods religion and consequently sinne against the first table are easily induced to disobey their prince which is a sinne against the second table It was a famous speech of the Emperour Constantius the father of Constantinus the Emperour Howe can they bee fast and true to the Emperour which are Traitours to Almightie God Euseb lib. 1. de vita Constant King Asa deposed Maachah his mother from her regencie because she had made an idoll in agroue Asa brake downe her idoll and stamped it at the brooke Kidron 2. Chron. 15. Ezechias and Iosias were famous Kings of Iuda They destroyed the groues and temples of the idols They destroyed the groues and temples of the idols They tooke a direct course for Gods religion Almightie God may not bee dalied with in his seruice There must be no parting of stakes Hee will either haue all or none Ezech. 20. The Lordes Altar and Baals Altar must not stand together Iudg. 6. Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon made a decree that euery
is not mans but Gods baptisme which is deliuered by them If it be Gods baptisme I am sure it is true baptisme Maister Caluin calleth them Catabaptistes which deny that wee are rightly baptized in the Popish Church Institut lib. 4. cap. 15. Sect. 16. Obiection The Popish priestes haue no lawfull calling therefore it is no true baptisme which is deliuered by them Answere The Argument followes not I confesse that the Popish priests haue no lawful calling yet they haue a calling though a faultie one They which are not lawfully called vnto the ministery and yet sit in the chaire of the ministerie are to bee accounted in an other place then they which haue no calling Caiphas was not in deede the lawfull high priest for he entred by money the priesthood in his time was rent in peeces yet because he sate in the high priests chaire he was accounted the high priest A faultie vocation may hurt him that vsurpes an office but it doth not defile those things which are done by that partie This is master Bezaes Iudgement in his 142. question If any shall gather of this that I allowe the Popish priesthood he deserues rather a Censor then Confuter for I confesse that Sacerdotium papisticum est sacrilegium that is that the Popish priesthood is Sacriledge 8. THEY ARE THE SAcraments of Baptisme and the holy Supper which are deliuered in the Church of England by vnpreaching ministers IF such as were baptized in the popish Church receiued true baptisme I trust they are rightly baptized in the Church of England which are baptized by vnpreaching ministers If such as were baptized by popish priests in the popish Church and by vnpreaching ministers in the Church of England receiued no sacrament many grosse absurdities would followe First very many are vnbaptized and if they bee vnbaptized they sinne grieuously in not presenting themselues to the holy Sacrament Secondly a great number haue sinned grossely in partaking the holy supper My reason is None vncircumcised might eate the Passeouer Ezodus 12. verse 48. therefore none vnbaptized may receiue the holy supper Thirdly many excellent men haue vsurped the preachers office My reason is It is vnlawfull for any man to bee a publique teacher in the visible Church which is not by baptisme graft into and so become a member of the visible Church Our Sauiour Christ was baptized of Iohn in Iordane before hee preached Matth. 3. and 4. Chap. The Apostle Paul was baptized of Ananias in Damascus before hee preached Act. 9. The vnpreaching Ministers doe adde the worde vnto the Element in the administration of Baptisme therefore it is the Sacramēt of Baptisme which is deliuered by them Accedit verbum ad elementum fit Sacramentum Aug. Tract 80. in Iohan. that is The worde is added to the Element and it becoms a Sacrament By worde in Baptisme is vnderstanded the word of Institution which is to Baptize in the name of the father the sonne and the holy Ghost c. Of this iudgement are Beza confess Cap. 4. Art 47. and Musculus de sig Sacram. Art 4. Obiection Christ sayde to his Apostles Goe and teach all nations baptizing c. Matth. 28. vers 19. therefore if the word preached be not added to the Element it is no Sacrament of Baptisme Answere The argument is very weake I confesse that Christ commanded his Apostles first to teach such as were of yeeres and alients from his religion and then to baptize them If the Gentiles had not bene first taught they would not haue offered thē selues nor the Apostles haue admitted them to the holy Sacrament of baptisme If any will conclude of this place in Saint Mathewe that none whatsoeuer may bee admitted to baptisme before they bee taught they shut our infants from the holy Sacrament and therefore are Catabaptists The vnpreaching ministers doe adde verbum adificans that is an edifying worde to the Elements in the administration of the holy supper therefore c. That there is verbum aedificans I proue it thus The summe of Christes sermon in the Institution administration of the holy supper by himselfe is the word of Institution in the administration of the holy Supper in the Church of England therefore vnlesse we wil denie the summe of Christs Sermon to be an edifying word which no learned mā wil deny we must confesse that we haue verbum aedificans in the administration of the holy supper with vs. If any will conclude of this that I mislike preaching before the administration of the Sacrament he doth me great wrong Obiection Vnpreching ministers are not apt to teach therefore they are no Sacraments which are deliuered by them Answere The argument followes not My reason is Many Iewish Priestes were both ignorant and dissolute in Esay and Christs time Esay 28. vers 7. Matth. 9. vers 36. But the Sacrifices offered and the Sacraments reached by them were both Sacrifices and Sacraments otherwise the Prophets which were at Ierusalem when the Iewish Church was full of corruption woulde not haue bene present at and partakers of the Sacrifices in Salomons Temple Calu. Institut lib. 4. cap. 1. sect 18 19. Obiection Ignorant ministers are not apt to teach therefore no ministers and consequently they are no Sacraments which are deliuered by them Answere The argument followes not I grant that it is of the substance of a lawful good minister of God to be apt to teach but it is not of the essence of a Minister simply for which it is sufficient to haue the Churches calling This appeareth clearely in the Magistrate The holy Ghost requireth that none shoulde bee chosen a Magistrate vnlesse he were a man of courage fearing God dealing truely and hating couetousnesse Exodus 18. verse 21. When such are aduanced as defile their handes either with filthie bribes as Felix did or with barbarous crueltie as Abimelech and Herode did shall we say that they are no Magistrates I confesse they are not singled out by the electors according to Almightie Gods direction in his holy Bible but they are Magistrates notwithstanding and we are commanded by the Lord to perfourme all duetie vnto them Saluo officio that is our duetie being reserued to the highest Magistrate which is God himselfe If any shall gather of this I haue set downe that I vndertake the defence of Ignorant ministers my answere is that my writings and sermons are not Aiax shielde to couer them but the Lords sworde to cutte them I confesse freely that I am very farre from opening either the Church doore to ignorant Ministers or the Pulpit doore to vnskilfull preachers which vnskilfull preachers giue Gods religion a greater blowe then the ignorant Ministers for in steade of deuiding the worde of trueth aright they speake at al aduentures yet very boldely and as vnskilfull Apothecaries deliuer quid pro quo chaffe for wheate and strange fancies for Gods holy trueth By such absurde fellowes many Churches and excellent men in this lande
reason from the outward calling of readers I referre to your next chapter where they are repeated thither nowe I am come where the contradictory of the question shal be set downe and proued briefely because the nullitie of the vnpreaching ministery may be in steade of a thousand reasons to proue the same R. Some My obiections are seuerall whatsoeuer you say Any one that hath but halfe an eye may easily see it by my seuerall answeres I haue set downe the obiections as they were deliuered to me The confutation of my answeres if it be any is foorth comming you say in an other place I haue sought for it but I cannot finde it It is shrunke I feare in the wetting R. Some If any shall gather of this I haue set downe that I vndertake the defence of ignorant ministers my answere is that my writings and Sermons are not Aiax shielde to couer them but the Lords sworde to cutte them I confesse freely that I am very farre from opening either the Church doore to ignorant ministers or the pulpit doore to vnskilfull preachers which vnskilfull preachers giue Gods religion a greater blowe then the ignorant ministers for in stead of diuiding the word of trueth aright they speake at all aduentures yet very boldely and as vnskilfull Apothecaries deliuer quid pro quo chaffe for wheate and strange fancies for Gods holy trueth By such absurde fellowes many Churches and excellent men in this land haue bene greatly disquieted and the good course of religiō hath bene greatly hindered The cause of this sore is intollerable pride and grosse ignorance in these bad companions and want of care in the Magistrates I. Penry I am as farre from accounting the vnskilfull preachers which speake hand ouer head they care not what against whome your complaint is very iust to be ministers as I am from acknowledging many of our absucde doctors to be apt to teach who can bring nothing into the Pulpit but that which other men haue written and that very often so fit to the purpose of edification as the reason from the corner to the staffe is soundly concluded In these three sortes of supposed ministers and there coulde be a fourth added vnto them confisteth the woe of our Church R. Some Is my complaint iust against vnskilful preachers Doe you M. Penry wipe them out of the rolle of ministers Will you shut the pulpit doore against them Take heede what you doe You bidde your selfe losse Your kingdome will then fall to the ground for vnskilfull preachers are your Bulwarks and Blockhouses to support your fancies The absurde Doctors you mention shall haue no defence of mee If they preach as you write for that duetie and loue I owe and beare to the Church and Vniuersities I woulde both they you were disgraded and they kept out of the Pulpit and your writings out of the Presse I hope some good will growe by your writings First that the Vniuersities will take better heed vpon vvhom they bestow their degrees Secondly that the Magistrates vvill looke better to the Printing houses By the fourth sort of supposed Ministers vvhich you vvrite of I knovve not vvhom you meane I could ghesse shrevvdly but I vvil not because I vvill not misconstrue you If they or any other be the murraine of our Church I vvoulde they vvere either reformed or remooued R. Some If any shall aske me what the true causes are why so many vnfit men are the Churches ministers I answere either great want of iudgement or great corruption in such which doe ordeine and preferre them The sinne of these men is very great for they dishonour Almightie God and doe grosly abuse the people of the land This disease will be healed when the Churches maintenance is not disposed of by them which haue the golden dropsie but is freely giuen to worthie and painefull students which will neither fish with the siluer hooke nor open the Church doore with a siluer key M. Penry sayeth nothing to this CHAP. 9. THE GODLY ARE NOT polluted which receiue the Sacrament at the hands of an vnpreaching Minister I. Penry BY pollution I doubt not you meane sinne R. Some I doe so R. Some The Sacraments are Gods ordinance the ministers ignorance can not peruert the nature of Gods ordinance I. Penry The Ministers ignorance say you page 28. cannot peruert Gods ordinance and againe page 29. the Sacraments are not the worse for the ignorance of the minister c. All this I graunt but bare readers are not ministers and the doubt is whether the action performed by them be the ordinance of God whether it bee a Sacrament These be the questions which you ought to haue proued and not haue taken them as principles though you doe this the third and fourth time R. Some Your writings are like the winde not long in one corner Before you denied it not to be a Sacrament which was deliuered by vnpreaching ministers here you doubt of it You erred either then or now Were he not a wise man that would followe your humour The rocke he should builde on should be nothing but sand his building should be as the wall in Ezechiel dawbed with vntempered morter If vnpreaching ministers haue administred a Sacrament in your iudgement I am sure you cannot deny them to haue a calling for you will not accompt it a Sacrament which is deliuered by priuate men But let vs see what you write in an other place of this argument I. Penry If vnpreaching ministers be no ministers and if I cannot be assured to receiue a Sacrament but onely at the hands of a minister then cannot I assure my selfe that an vnpreaching minister can deliuer a Sacrament vnto me and therefore it is vnlawfull for me or any Christian to goe vnto an vnpreaching minister for the Sacraments if vnlawfull then a sinne if a sinne then the godly are polluted which goe vnto them for the Sacraments R. Some If vnpreaching ministers were no ministers as you affirme and I denie then I would confesse that a Sacrament might as easily be had of them as water of a drie ditch But what if some did minister the Sacrament in the Apostles times which were not preachers very famous men are of that iudgement Caluine vpon these wordes of the Apostle Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the Gospel 1. Cor. 1.17 writeth thus There were fewe to whom the office of preaching was committed but the administration of Baptisme was committed to many Martyr writeth thus vpon the same place of the Apostle Munus tingendi c. that is the administration of Baptisme may bee committed to euery one in the Church but not the office of preaching Chrisostome vpon that place of S. Paul hath these vvordes Euangelizare perpaucorum est c. that is fewe are able to preach but euery one may baptize that hath a calling Of this iudgement are Ambrose Hemingius c. Augustine hath these wordes Perfectè baptizare minùs docti
the place of a priest among them was no priest in deed though he ten thousand times profaned circumcision would brag neuer so often that he worshipped after his Idolatrous maner no other God but the God of his father Abraham and sware onely by the feare of his father Isaac The reason hereof is because that euery priest vnder the law must be an Israelite by profession that is a member of the true Church neither could any of the godly assure themselues that an Edomitish priest admistred true circumcision according to the substance Now I reckon of a popish priest no otherwise thē I would haue done of an Ismaelitish or Edomitish circumciser the profanation of that seale of the couenant still continuing in mount Seir. R. Some Your Maior propositions in your two first arguments are viz. Euery Minister must bee at the least by profession a member of the true Church And euery Minister hath an office within the body of the Church My answere is that your Maior propositions and the proofe of them out of the 12. to the Rom. are true if you giue them this sense viz. that euery lawfull and good Minister of God is by prosession a member and hath an office within the body of the sound Church If you vnderstand your Maior propositions otherwise I deny them my reason is Excommunicated heretiques which administer true baptisme out of the Church had a calling though a faultie one and yet these heretiques neither were mēbers nor had any office in the true Church That Iudas was a vessel of wrath and yet an Apostle and a member of the Church in the iudgement of the Church I make no question The case of many hypocrites hath may be such for reprobation and ministerie though not for Apostleship That which I like of in this Treatise of yours I will either alow by some short speach or else passe ouer with silence Cauiling and wrangling become not such as professe and loue the Religion If none may be a Minister in Gods Church by Gods order but such as are members that is engraffed into Gods Church it is a good consequent that none in the time of the Law might be a Leuiticall Priest which was vncircumcised Which point you dealt very strāgly in before It is true that none might be a Leuiticall priest which was not a Iewe by profession and of the line of Aaron but yet not euery one of Aarons line if he were vnfit for that holy functiō might be admitted to the Leuiticall priesthood as you gaue out before very absurdly No popish Priest as hee is a popish Priest is accompted a Minister in our Church If you thinke otherwise you thinke amisse for I can assure you that none which haue bene popish Priestes either did or doe administer in our Church without the allowance of our Church I confesse they receiue not imposition of handes againe either in our Church or in other reformed Churches If Circumcision was amongst the Ismaelites and Edomites as you write and I affirme then a Sacrament was amongst them I pray you remember this The Priestes of Idumea I graunt were not Priestes in deede that is they were not lawfull and good Ministers of God for they had no lawfull calling yet they had a calling though a faultie one Otherwise Circumcision administred by them had bene no Sacrament That which decemeth you is that you do not distinguish betweene a lawfull and good Minister of God and a Minister betweene a lawfull calling and a calling c. I. Penry Whereas in the assumption or second part of both the reasons I deny popish Priests to be members of the Church my meaning is not that there are none of the elect within the body of Popery whom the Lord may cal in his good time For I woulde not deny this vnto Mahometisme or that there are not left in Popery certaine rubishes steps of true Religion for this difference I make betwene them and other Infidels though the Iewes also may claime this vnto themselues But I meane that the Popish religion is such a religion as whosoeuer liueth dieth in the profession thereof he liueth and dieth out of the Church where saluation is not possibly to be had for any thing that is made knowen vnto man Whence it necessarily foloweth that in Popery there is no Church If it be obiected that the Papists are within the Couenant inasmuch as long since they professed the trueth Mine answere will be that Popery was neuer the trueth as yet that no Papist in that hee was a Papist euer professed the trueth and that God made no Couenant with professed Idolaters as all Papists are R. Some Your Minor propositions in your two first arguments are viz. No popish priest is by profession a mēber of the church And No popish priest hath an office within the bodie of the Church My answer is If by church in your Minor propositiōs you meane a sound Church I grant that no popish priest as he is a popish priest and a professed papist is either a member by profession or hath an office within the bodie of the Church If by Church you meane an vnsound Church My answer is that a popish priest is a member hath an office within the body of the church My reason is the popish church is a church though an vnsound church For proofe of this I haue vsed diuerse reasons in this Treatise I referre you to them If they wil not downe with you you must confute the seuerall writings of Caluine in his Institutions Commentaries and Epistles of other famous men and condemne the iudgement of all the reformed churches If your stomacke serue you you haue matter inough to work on more thē you were wel aware of That steps of true Religion remaine in the Popish Church it is manifest for God preserued in that Church verbum suum baptismum That is his Word and Baptisme Beza in Annot. Matt. 23.2 Yea we of the Religion haue receiued many good things from the papists as the Israelites did the Arke frō the Philistines I graunt that the Iewes haue many good things amōgst them yet there is great difference betwene Iewes papists The papist receiueth the new Testamēt so doth not the Iew. The papist doth not vse circūcision because the date of it is out but baptisme which is an engraffing into Christ The Iewe retaineth circumcision doth not admit baptisme That the papists are not altogether aliens frō Gods couenant I haue shewed before and doe rest in M. Caluines iudgement for that point You write that poperie was neuer the trueth as yet If you meane that all poperie was neuer the trueth as yet I agree with you If you meane that no part in poperie was euer the trueth as yet you erre grossely and are refuted by your owne words which are that there are certaine steppes of true religion in poperie You giue out that no papist in that
kinne that they are like to Hippocrates twinnes which laughed together and wept together which liued together and died together You adde that the ministerie in preaching ministers is not seuered from a gift but that the vnpreaching minister is not enriched by the furniture of another mans gifts A deepe matter forsooth It is as cleare as the Sunne that learned ministers haue furniture of gifts that ignorant men are not learned because the other are so Blind Bartimeus could haue espied this Do you thinke that any man of any accompt for learning will reason thus Diuers learned men haue written excellently therefore M. Penry hath so which hath broched many palpable errours If any should dispute thus he should reason absurdly and yet it is a wise a speech as that which was deliuered euen nowe by your selfe You write that it were a ridiculous speach to say Mine Apostleship hath receiued grace but I that am the Apostle haue receiued none I confesse that Gods graces are not tied to any chaire To thinke otherwise is a popish fancie But I dare tell you this which I am sure is good diuinitie that some actions of ignorant euill ministers may haue good grace at Gods hands when the parties themselues find none I prooue it thus First the sacrifices of ignorant Leuiticall priestes were profitable to many godly men in that time but not to those priests Secondly publique prayers deliuered by absurd ministers in the name of the godly assembly are profitable to the assembly but not to them for the prayers are accepted by almightie God Non properuersitate praepositorum sed pro deuotione populorum that is Not for the peruersenesse of the ministers but for the deuotion of the people Augu. contra epist Parm. libr. 2. cap. 8. I. Penry Euery vnpreaching minister sinneth in executing the workes of a pastorall function as the Sacraments c. therefore he hath no ministery and so neither a pastorall nor doctorall function He hath no ministery because his calling is not the calling of the ministery His calling is not the calling of the ministery because he sinneth in intermedling with the works thereof And this is an infallible trueth that no man sinneth because he dealeth with the workes of his calling For this is the duetie that God requireth at the hands of euery man Many sinne in deede because they walke corruptly in their callings and haue no care to glorifie God therein Col. 3.17 But leaue thy corruption and thou sinnest not in keeping thee to the workes of thy calling The hypocrites in the dayes of Isaiah 1.13 sinned not because they offered sacrifice but because they did the same through hypocrisie Their hypocrisie they ought to haue left but not his seruice in sacrificing according to his commandement but our readers though they should with as litle corruption and as great zeale to Gods glory and the good of his Church as any men deale in the workes of a pastorall ministery yet they should still doe that which the Lord had forbidden them to doe whence it appeareth that the workes of the ministery are not the workes of their calling For God forbiddeth no man to deale therewith and not being the workes of their calling they are no ministers and haue neyther pastorall nor doctorall function R. Some You would fayne prooue that vnpreaching ministers haue no ministerie at all but it will not be You haue euill lucke you cannot hitte that marke Your reason is this Euerie vnpreaching minister sinneth in executing the workes of a pastorall function as the Sacraments c. therefore he hath no ministerie c. Mine answere is that I deny your argument My reason is The sonnes of Heli sinned in the execution of their ministery 1. Sam. 2. yet they were ministers The contentious ministers of Philippi sinned in the execution of their ministerie Philippi 1. yet they were ministers You go on M. Penry in this sort The Lord you say hath forbidden ignorant men to deale with the workes of the ministerie therefore ignorant ministers haue no ministerie at all Your Antecedent is true for the holy ministerie is too high a calling for such base companions Your argument is very false My reason is your ignorant Leuites were forbidden by almightie God to enter into the priesthood yet they were lawfull priests in your iudgement because they were of the line of Aaron c. I. Penry This is further shewed forasmuch as the Lord doeth not commit vnto bare readers the charge of those soules ouer whom they are which he doeth vnto euery one that hath a pastorall function Acts. 20.26.28 1. thes 5.12 Heb. 13.17 For to what ende else should he commit a ministerie vnto any who haue soules vnder their charge The Church in deede may commit the soules of men vnto readers but certainely the Lord committeth none vnto them And he is no minister vnto whom the Lord doeth not commit this charge as the places before quoted doe shewe For the Lord hath in his word ordeined not onely offices the executours whereof should haue the ouersight of soules but also the persons who were to execute those functions 1. Cor. 12.28 1. Pet. 4.10 Rom. 12.6.7.8 Ephes 4.7.11 Nowe vnpreaching ministers are none of those persons because the Lord knoweth them not to be able to feede soules And let not men be so iniurious vnto the Lord as to affirme that he according vnto his reuealed ordinance for thereof I speake as of a ministerie and not of his secret iudgements bequeathed the soules of men to be starued and kept from saluation As he must needs be conuinced to do if he bequeathed thē vnto those men the dispensatiō of whose ministerie is able to beget none feede none saue none You must vnderstand againe that I speake of the ministerie whereby readers are ministers that is of their owne and not of the ministerie whereby preaching ministers are ministers wherewith readers haue nothing to doe R. Some That almightie God neuer committed charge of soules to ignorant men vnlesse it were to punish them as he did the rebellious Israelites by ignorant Leuiticall priestes is a cleare trueth in diuinitie I agree with you in that You say that the dispensation of our readers ministerie doth feede none In that you erre grossely My reason is The Sacraments administred by them doe comfort and feede the soules of the godly communicants for the vertue of the Sacrament dependeth not of any minister whatsoeuer c. The scriptures read by vnpreaching ministers do edifie the assemblie which is reuerētly attētiue If you answer that the word soundly preached doth edifie more I assent If you deny that the scriptures read by vnpreaching ministers do edifie in any sort you speake blasphemously I haue refuted that absurditie Chap. 4. of this treatise There is great difference betweene the Minister and ministerie but either you cannot or will not see it I. Penry Moreouer howe can the Lord be sayd to commit the charge of soules
the souldier or the merchāt aduenturer which in their places are a singular defence to their countrey by sea and land therefore it is a heinous sinne to robbe Churchmen which as Elias are the Chariots and horsemen of the common wealth The weapons of our warrefare saith the Apostle are not carnal but mighty through God to cast downe holdes casting downe the imaginations and euery high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God and bringing into captituitie euery thought to the obedience of Christ and hauing ready the vengeance against all disobedience c. 2. Cor. 10. The repairing of Churches is to bee performed carefully So was it in king Ioas time therefore much more prouision for the teachers the Priestes maintenance in Ioas time neither was nor might be abridged for repairing of the Churches the reason of it is conteined in these wordes The money of the trespasse offering and the money of the Sinne offring was not brought into the Lordes house for it was the Priests 2. Kings 12. Skilfull teachers doe plough the Lords field and are the Lords both mouth and hands to deliuer his blessings and treasure vnto vs therefore they ought to haue defence and maintenance and not to wander as Michas Priest did Iudg. 17. Students cannot liue of the ayre as the Chamelion doth Church pollers shut vp the kingdome of heauen before mē for they themselues goe not in neither suffer they them that would enter to come in therefore the woe denounced by Christ against the Scribes and Pharises seazeth vpon them Matth. 23. Ezechias the King of Iuda commanded that the Priests and Leuites should haue maintenance and that their wiues children and families should bee prouided for 2. Chron. 31. vers 4 18. Thus did Hezekiah throughout all Iudah and did well and vprightly and truely before the Lord his God And in all the works that he began for the seruice of the house of God both in the Law and in the Commandements to seeke his God he did it will all his heart and prospered 2. Chron. 31. vers 20 21. Diuers famous Princes haue had some Church-men to be of their honorable Councel Iehoiada was in King Ioas Court 2. Chron. 24. Zadok and Abiathar in Dauid and Salomons Court 2. Sam. 20. 1. King 4. Daniel in Darius Court Dan. 6. It is Queene Elizabeths pleasure that the worthiest men should bee aduaunced for the gouernement and seruice of the Church That very meane choise hath bene made of diuers Churchmen the land sees feeles and cries out of Question Whether such thinges as were giuen for the maintenance of idolatry may and ought to be conuerted to the seruice of God Answere They may and ought My reasons are If men should conuert them to their priuate vse it might be iustly thought that in abolishing superstition priuate gaine is the marke which is shot at and not the aduancing of Gods religion August epist. 154. When such things are conuerted not to priuate but common vses or to the honour of God that falleth out in them which in men themselues when of Church robbers and wicked men they are conuerted to true religion August epist 154. Eleazar the Priest tooke the brasen censers which they that were burnt had offered and made broad plates of them for a couering of the Altar Numb 16. The gold siluer the vessels of brasse and Iron in Iericho were brought into the Lordes treasury Ios 6. Gedeon did offer vnto the Lorde a bullocke which had bin fed for Baals seruice and did vse the wood of the groue a dioyning Iudg. 6. If such thinges as were giuen to the maintenance of Poperie may not be conuerted to the seruice of God then pull downe Churches and Vniuersities take away their landes c. And let Atheisme be in steade of Gods religion and Macciauell in the place of the new Testament 5. ALMIGHTIE GOD blesseth those kingdomes with peace which promote and embrace his religion THe holy host setteth out in liuely colours the cōsequents of teaching and embracing the Lordes religion They shall breake their swordes into mattockes and their speares into siethes they shall sit euery man vnder his vine and figge tree without feare of the enemie Mich. 4. The prophet Esay singeth the same song The Wolfe shall dwell with the Lambe The Leoparde shall lie with the kidde the Cowe and the Beare shall feede together Esay 11. That is wicked men which in cruell affections resemble the Wolfe the Leoparde the Beare shall cast off the chaine of pride and the garment of crueltie and shall goe hand in hand with the godlie who for their innocencie are compared to the Lambe the Cowe the Kidde The reason is For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lorde Esay 11. The Egyptians and Assyrians were deadly enemies they denied traffique one to an other and all passages were shut vp betweene Egypt and Assyria Esay describing a great alteration of minds in them of Egypt and Assyria sayth that There shall be apath from Egypt to Assur and Assur shall come into Egypt and Egypt into Assur The reason of their agreement is set downe in these words The Egyptians shall worship the Lord with Assur Esay 19. Where idolatrie is aduanced no peace can bee looked for They chose newe gods saith Deborah Then was warre in the gates Iudg. 5. The Israelites for a long time were without the true God without Priest to teach In that time saith the Prophet Azariah there was no peace for nation was destroyed of nation and citie of citie 2. Chron. 15. The Reubenites Gadites and halfe tribe of Manasseh transgressed against the God of their fathers and went a whoring after the gods of the people of the lande whome God had destroyed before them The God of Israel stirred vp the spirit of the kings of Assyria who caryed them away captiue c. 1. Chron. 5. Iehoram the king of Iuda did forsake the Lorde God of his fathers the consequents were Edom Libnah rebelled the Lorde stirred vp against Iehoram the spirit of the Philistines Arabians 2. Chron. 21. King Ahaz was a notable idolater He sacrificed to the gods of Damascus the Edomites and Philistines inuaded the cities of Iuda and preuailed Yea the king of Aslyria whose helpe Ahaz desired and accounted greatly of did trouble and not strengthen him 2. Chron. 28. Iehoiakim the king of Iuda did euill in the sight of the Lorde his God The king of Babel came vp against him and bound him with chaines to carie him to Babel 2. Chron. 36. They which dissent in religion cannot bee knit fast together The Samaritanes and Iewes differed in religion they contended about the Temple Ioh. 4. The stirre betweene them was very great Some in the Apostles times after Christ ascensiō vrged circumcision as necessary vnto saluation other condemned it as an absurd grosse error The stirre was great in the Churches of Antiochia and Galatia Arius erred blasphemously about the godhead
fufficiēcie of gifts and willingnesse to practise them pag. 45. If M. Penry meane the practise of giftes to Gods glory I say Amen vnto it I confesse that they of Philippos had giftes in some measure but they had not willingnesse to practise those giftes to Gods glorie which willingnesse c. is one of the necessarie branches of an inward calling That they of Philippos had not this willingnesse c. it is manifest for they sought themselues and practised their gifts wholy to increase the Apostles affliction Lastly if your Antecedent be true what say you to this proposition They of whose Magistracie there is a Nullitie before God though they haue an outward calling ought not to bee accompted Magistrates Doe you not thinke this proposition to bee very dangerous I could presse and followe this very farre but I abstaine of purpose Obiection The Sacrament may not bee receiued at his handes which wanteth outward calling Therefore not at his handes who is destitute of the inward graces I. Penry pag. 46. Answere Your Antecedent is true and maketh against the Anabaptists I denie your Argument My reason is Omnia Sacramenta cùm obsint indignè tractantibus prosunt tamen per eos dignè sumentibus August contra epist Parmen lib. 2. cap. 10. That is All Sacraments though they hurt such as doe handle them vnworthily yet they profit such as doe worthily receiue them at their handes Obiection We haue no warrant to receiue an extraordinarie Sacrament But that which is administred by ignorant ministers is an extraordinary Sacrament if it be any Therefore we haue no warrant to receiue it I. Penry pag. 49. Answere I denie your Minor and doe adde this First that it is a Sacrament by your owne confession pag. 50 51. which is administred by ignorant ministers Secondly that it is no extraordinarie Sacrament which is deliuered by them vnlesse you will call Baptisme and the holy Supper extraordinarie Sacraments If any will conclude of these my answeres that I mislike M. Penryes desire of a learned Ministerie in Wales he takes vp that which I neuer let fall for I desire with all my heart and the Lorde for his Christs sake grant it that not onely Wales may be furnished with worthy gouernours and pastours but all other partes of her Maiestics Dominions that Gods graces may be more and more multiplied vpon vs and our posteritie and his holy hand watch ouer vs. 10 THE CHVRCH OF England is the visible Church of Christ THE Church of Galatia which erred in a fundamentall point of doctrine is called the Church of God Gal. 1. therefore the Church of England which erreth not in any fundamentall point of doctrine is the Church of Christ That the Church of Galatia erred in a fundamentall point of doctrine it is manifest for they ioyned Circumcision and Christ together If any do thinke that the Church of England doe hold an errour in any fundamentall point of doctrine let him set downe the particular The Church of England hath Christ for her head and foundation for shee receiueth and reuerenceth the Canonicall Scriptures and confesseth Christes righteousnesse to be hers and that saluation is compassed by Christ alone with whose grace nothing may bee matched Christus aut totus aut nullus Gratia Dei aut tota suscipitur aut tota reijcitur Gratia nullo modo esset gratia nisi esset omni modo gratuita That the preaching of the holy worde and administration of the Sacraments are the essentiall markes of the Church of Christ I haue proued in my Treatise of the Church to which booke I referre you but these essentiall markes of the Church are in the Church of England therefore c. Obiection The discipline vsed in the Primitiue Church is not in the Church of Englād therefore the church of England is not the Church of Christ Answere I denie the Argument My reasons are First S. Luke setting out the extraordinary blessing which God gaue to Peters sermō in Ierusalem hath these wordes Then they that gladly receiued his worde were baptized and the same day there were added to the Church about three thousand soules And they continued in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and prayers Acts. 2.41 42. No man endued with Gods spirit wil denie that this assembly which was baptised continued in the Apostles doctrine c. was the Church of God and yet no Deacons were at that time chosē or Consistories of Seniors erected Secondly they which doe vrge the discipline most earnestly doe confesse that the discipline is not an essentiall part of the Church Their reason is The discipline resembles the wall of a Citie and hedge or ditch of a Vineyarde It is a Citie though the wall bee wanting it is a Vineyarde though hedge or ditch be wanting Lastly I woulde gladly knowe whether it bee either possible or safe to plant that discipline in this lande before that Gods holy Trueth be soundly both taught and receiued and that there be fit Churchmen and people to execute the discipline Obiection The Ministers in England are not chosen by the Parishes ouer which they are set therefore they are no ministers and consequently there is no administration of the worde or Sacraments no worshippe of God nor visible Church in England as some Anabaptists haue giuen out of late Answere I denie the Argument My reason is if this Argument of theirs were good these absurdities would follow First that Gods Church is necessarily tyed in all places and times to one forme in the externall calling of the ministers Secondly that the excellent assemblie in the Primitiue Church Actes 2. verse 41 42. was not the Church of God for at that time the Ministers were not elected by the Presbitery people Thirdly that the worthiest Preachers in this land are no Ministers Lastly that very many parts of England are like to haue no teachers because they are vtterly vnfit to make choise of their Pastours If it be saide that some Bishops in ordeyning and some Patrones in presenting ignorant Ministers haue erred as grosly as any Parish can my answere is that I neither dare nor will defend such either Bishops or Patrons I doe rather exhort them to vnfeyned repentance for this great sinne of theirs hath and doth crie very loude for some notable vengeance Cipri de vnitate Ecclesiae Haereses Diabolus inuenit schismata quibus subuerteret fidem veritatem corrumperet scinderet vnitatem Quos detinere non potest in viae veteris caecitate cirrumscribit decipit noui itineris errore Rapit de ipsa Ecclesia homines dum sibi appropinquasse iam lumini atque euasisse faeculi noctem videntur alias nescientibus tenebras rursus infundit c. A DEFENCE OF SVCH POINTS IN R. SOMES LAST TREATISE AS M. PENRY hath dealt against And a refutation of many Anabaptistical blasphemous and Popish absurdities touching Magistracie Ministerie Church Scripture and Baptisme c. conteined
page 84. They amongst vs which are vnbaptized doe sinne grienously if they doe not present themselues to baptisme Chap. 8. page 88. They which are once baptized must not be baptized againe Chap. 19. page 156. They which were baptized of Popish priestes in the Popish Church receiued true baptisme c. chap 7. page 79. and chap. 8. page 88 89. and chap. 20. page 156. 157. The false profession of Christ in popery doth not proue that the true Christ is not in popish baptisme cap. 23. pa. 174. Whether infants ought rather to be kept vnbaptized then to be presented to popish baptisme chap. 23. page 180. The infāts of papists may be baptized in a reformed church if some of the religion do present them to baptisme do vndertake the godly education of them cha 17. pag. 150. There hath bene may be true baptisme out of the church chap. 21. page 158. Though true baptisme was amōgst the Donatists out of the Church August did not giue leaue to any of the church to presēt their infāts to be baptized there cap. 21. pa. 159. They are the Sacraments of Baptisme and the holy Supper which are administred by vnpreaching ministers in the church of England chap. 8. page 88. 89. 95. 98. None vnbaptized may receiue the holy supper chap. 8. page 90. 91. 92. It is lawful to administer the holy supper in a priuate house if some cautions be obserued chap. 15. page 141. 142. Euery legall vncleannes was not ioyned with sinne chap. 9. page 113. The regenerate cannot fulfil the law of God cha 26. pa. 199 A TABLE OF DIVERS grosse errours and Anabaptisticall fancies conteined in M. Penryes Treatise c. Master Penry saith That the life of the Magistracie is neither prescribed in the worde for so there could be no Magistrates out of the Church nor any in the Church but such as are prescribed in the word which were impious to thinke nor conteined in the gifts of the Magistracie nor yet separated from his outwarde calling For the very outward calling is it that giueth life vnto the Magistracie though the person susteining it want gifts to discharge the same The reason hereof is euident because the Magistracie being an humaine constitution as the holy Ghost saith 1. Pet. 2.13 is appropriated vnto his possession vpō whomsoeuer man bestoweth the same if hee be capable to possesse though vnfit to execute what is a lotted vnto him In his addition page 48. This speach of M. Penryes is very grosse His first reason is this there may be Magistrates out of the Church therefore the life of the Magistracie is not prescribed in the word M. P. Antecedent is true For Pharao Nero Iulian were magistrates out of the Church I deny his argument My reason is the gifts of courage fearing God dealing truly hating couetousnes which are the life of the Magistrate are prescribed in Gods booke Exo. 18.21 Deu. 1.13 If you say they are not the life of the magistracie you dissent from all the learned and therfore must set downe what God requireth of him that should be his Magistrate His second reason is this There are and may be magistrates within the Church which are not garnished with the aboue named gifts therefore the life of the Magistracie is not prescribed in the word My answere is I confesse that absurd Magistrates haue bene and are many times aduanced in the Church I graunt they should not either by the corruption or errour of the electours But I deny your argument My reason is It is great wickednes to thinke because grosse Electours preferre vnfit men and so faile in their duetie that Almightie God hath failed in prescribing what kinde of men he would haue to be his lieutenants M. Penry addeth that the life of the Magistracie is not conteined in the gifts of the magistracie I dissent from him in this If he had said that the birth of the magistracie is not conteined in the gifts of the magistracie he had hit the white M. Penry writeth that the life of the magistracie is not separated from his outward calling for the very outward calling saith he is it that giueth life vnto the magistracie If this were true then the life and birth of the magistrate are idem tempore that is twinnes and consequently whosoeuer hath the outwarde calling which is the birth hath the inwarde calling which is the life of the magistrate So is Gods furniture tyed to the electours voices as to the chaire and the inward outward calling of the magistrate confounded which is a palpable errour If there bee an outward calling to the magistracie without the which no man howsoeuer furnished within may presume to execute the office of the magistrate I am sure there is an inward calling to the magistracie For the outwarde calling doeth import an inward If there be an inward calling which is by God himselfe what I beseech you is it but such furniture and gifts as are prescribed and required in the holy word The foundation whereupon M. Penry hath built his former absurdities is a very rotten post that is a grosse deprauing of a text of Scripture viz. The Magistracie is an humaine ordinance 1. Pet. 2.13 that is a deuise of man and not an Ecclesiasticall constitution prescribed in the worde That the magistracie is not any deuise of man but Gods ordinance for the benefite of man is a cleare trueth in Gods booke None doubt of it vnlesse they be Anabaptists or extremely ignorant M. Penry saith that the word barely read and to no other purpose then to edifie by reading is not holsome doctrine Chap. 8. pag. 99. This is a blasphemous absurditie M. Penryes reasons for it are most absurd and childish I referre you to my answere Chap. 8. pag. 100. 101. and to a proposition which I haue handled Chap. 4. pag. 62. c. M. Penry writeth that it is false to say that the recitall of the summe of Christes Sermon that is the word of institution c. is an edifying word he saith it mainteyneth charming Chap. 8. pag. 88. 89. This is a blasphemous absurditie If euery part of the Canonical Scripture doth edifie I trust the summe of the Lord Iesus Sermon ought to haue singuler allowance If it ought to haue singuler allowance it may not be indited and arraigned for maintenance of charming M. Penry saith that the people cannot sanctifie a Sabboth without a Sermon His words are these They are no ministers whose flocks by their ministery can not sanctifie the Sabboth our Readers are such c. In his addition pag. 60. M. Penry accounteth the publique reading of the holy Scripture and publique prayers no part of the sanctification of the Sabboth If he had said that the Sabboth is not so well sanctified without as with a godly Sermon I woulde haue agreed vnto him M. Penry maketh the person to giue credite to the holy word His wordes are these The word of God vttered is not an
edifying word vnlesse it be vttered according to the ordinance both in regard of the persons that vtter the same and the ende wherefore it is vttered Chap. 8. pag. 99. This is a Popish errour for the Scripture is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is of credite in it selfe Reade my answere Chap. 8. pag. 102. M. Penry saith that there is no Church at all in Popery Chap. 23. pag. 175. 176. This is a grosse errour condemned of very famous men and all reformed Churches If there be no church at all in Popery these absurdities will followe first the Pope is not Antichrist Secondly the infants of Papists may not be baptized in any reformed Church though some of the Religion doe present them to Baptisme and publiquely vndertake the good education of them Reade that which I haue written Chap. 17. pag. 147. 148. 149. and Chap. 23. pag. 176. M. Penry saith that if there be a Church in Popery our Magistrates c. are Schismatiques inasmuch as they haue separated themselues from the Church of Rome Chap. 17. pag. 151. This is a grosse and Popish collection and cannot stand with the duetie of a subiect Reade my answere Chap. 17. pag. 151. 152. M. Penry writeth that men in the Popish Church are not ingraffed by Baptisme into a true Christ His wordes are these Where there is no true Christ whereunto men can be ingraffed by Baptisme there true Baptisme as touching the substance cannot be gotten c. But in Popery there is no true Christ whereinto men may be ingraffed c. Chap. 23. pag. 173. This is a grosse errour condemned of all famous writers and Churches Reade that which I haue written Chap. 23. pag. 173. 174. and cha 20. pag. 156. 157. Maister Penry writeth that if baptisme administred by vnpreaching ministers were denied to be a Sacrament he would wish none to offer themselues to that holy Sacrament for sixe causes First we are already receyued into the bosome of the Church and acknowledged to haue the seale of the couenant in as much as we were once offered and receyued into the number of the godly by the outwarde elemēt though corruptly To what end then should baptisme serue vs againe In his exhort to the gouernonrs c. of Wales pag. 31. If this be true which M. Penry saith the outwarde and bare element deliuered by him which in M. Penryes iudgement is no minister is the seale of Gods couenant Which is a most absurd heresie Secondly the absolute necessitie of baptisme to saluation by this meanes might seeme to be mainteined False They which require men vnbaptized to offer themselues to Baptisme are perswaded that the contempt of the Sacrament is damnable they doe not thinke that all which die without Baptisme if contempt bee absent are damned Besides Baptisme is necessarie in respect of our obedience but what obedience is performed when Baptisme is refused Thirdly least wee should seeme to agree with the heretical Catabaptists If no Baptisme was deliuered by vnpreaching ministers M. Penry is an hereticall Catabaptist if hee dehort any such from holy Baptisme as were baptized by vnpreaching ministers Fourthly other Churches haue not publikely decided the cause They needed not They made no question of it for with one voyce they condemne your Anabaptisticall fancies Fiftly that the practise should not enforce them to bee rebaptized which haue bene alreadie baptized by such as had commission from the Lord to deale in those mysteries If they be already baptized no reason they should desire a second Baptisme for Baptisme may not be iterated I haue prooued this point in my Treatise of the Sacraments and in this booke Chap. 19. pag. 156. Lastly they who being nowe in the age of discretion haue beene baptized by Idoll ministers are either called or not called to saluation If called why should they be rebaptized seeing alreadie they haue bene made partakers of the outward element and accompted in the number of Christians If not called neither should they be baptized vntill they declared by their workes that they were Gods children If they receiued the Sacrament before they neede not If they receiued no Sacrament they cannot absteine from Baptisme without intollerable both sinne and vengeance None that are effectually called either haue or will refuse to offer themselues to Baptisme which Baptisme before they had not Cornelius example doeth teach vs that Acts. 10. Yea I dare be bold to say that her Maiesties subiects which are vnbaptized and do not offer themselues to Baptisme are not as yet effectually called whatsoeuer either they or you pretende The reason is None are effectually called which are not within the compasse of Gods couenant The words of Gods couenant are these I will be thy God and the God of thy seede Gen. 17. Are they within the compasse of this couenant which either wittingly omit or wilfully refuse Baptisme which is the seale of Gods couenant M. Penry sayth that the preaching of the worde is necessarily required in the administration of Baptisme chap. 7 pag. 82. If this were true al such as were Baptized without a Sermon receiued no Sacrament I referre you to my answere Chap. 7. pag. 84. M. Penry sayeth that Baptisme is not out of the Church Chap. 23. pag. 176. This is a grosse errour Reade that which I haue written Chap. 21. pag. 158. c. M. Penryes iudgement is that Queene Elizabeth and many thousandes in England are vnbaptized That his iudgement is such I proue it by his owne wordes He writeth thus c. In Popery there is no true Christ whereunto men may be ingraffed c. And a litle before What Baptisme is that which is not an ingraffing into the true Christ Chap. 23. pag. 173. A litle after he hath these words There is no Church at all in Popery chap. 23. pag. 175. 176. And in an other place c. that Baptisme is not out of the Church If M. Penry shall answere that it was Baptisme in the Popish church yesterday but it is not so either to day or to morowe because the Christ professed now in Popery is not a true but a deuided Christ I must needes tell him that Christ in the Popish profession was diuided as well when her Maiestie c. was Baptized as he is deuided in the Popish profession in this day Besides M. Penry writeth that the Popish church was neuer the Temple of God since Antichrist planted his pestilent chaire therein Chap. 22. pag. 165. To conclude seeing there is in M. Penryes iudgement no Church no Baptisme no Ministery in the Popish church c. I may be bold to affirme that in M. Penryes iudgement her Maiestie and many thousandes more are vnbaptized M. Penry saith that the holy Supper is an extraordinary Sacrament which is deliuered priuately by a Minister Chap. 14. pag. 139. This error is condemned by M. Caluine whose resolution is that it is lawfull to administer the holy Supper priuately if certaine cautions be
obserued I rest in his iudgement I referre you to chap. 15. page 141. 142. M. Penry saith that they which cōmunicate with vnpreaching ministers approue the sinne of the vnpreaching ministerie Chap. 10. pag. 119. This is an Anabaptisticall fancie for S. Paul as M. Penry writeth communicated after his conuersion with those priestes which were as vnlearned as euer any chap. 11. pag. 128. I referre you besides to my answere chap. 10. pag. 119. M. Penry is bolde to control Almightie God for barring the vncircumcised Israelites from eating the Paschall lambe His words are these why should the godly of the family be excluded from the action the cause why they were vncircumcised not being in them Chap. 8. pag. 89. This is intollerable saucinesse It becommeth not dust and ashes to dispute with and to coūtermand the Maiestie of God Reade my answere chap. 8. pag. 91. 92. M. Penries iudgement is that the touching of a dead man which was a legall vncleannes was sinne Chap. 9. page 110. For proofe of this errour he quoteth two textes of Scripture most absurdly I referre you to my answere chap. 9. page 111. 112. 113. M. Penry saith that Caiphas high priesthood was the Lords ordinance Chap. 10. page 122. This is an errour for the Lords ordināce was that only one should be the high priest and it is manifest in the text that Annas Caiphas were high priests together luke 3. M. Penry sayth that he is assured that popish priests are no ministers that is that they haue no calling at all Chap. 22. page 160. 162. 163. If this were true first a great number are vnbaptized Secondly Caluine Beza and other famous men and churches which I do not thinke do erre grosly Lastly only M. Penries iudgement is sound which I am sure is a most absurd iudgement Reade my answere cap. 22. pag. 161. 162. 163. and cap. 18. pag. 154. M. Penry affirmeth readers to be no ministers and for any thing that is reuealed in the worde that they can deliuer no Sacrament and yet that which hath bene done by them may be a Sacrament and what contrarietie saith hee is there in these assertions In his exhort to the Gouernours c. of Wales pag. 32. Then yesterday a Sacrament and to morowe none Goodly diuinitie Such Saint such shrine M. Penry sayth that he hath no ministerie which sinneth in executing the workes of the ministerie as administring Sacraments c. His wordes are these the calling of an vnpreaching minister is not the calling of the ministerie because he sinneth in intermedling with the workes thereof Chap. 25. If this were true the contentious ministers of Philippi were no ministers for they sinned in executing the workes of the ministerie That appeareth in these wordes of the Apostle Some preach Christ through enuie and strife Phi. 1.15 Besides M. Penries ignorant Leuites were no priests in the old Testament for they sinned in executing the priesthood That the outward approbation of the Church doth not make a minister Chap. 12. page 131. If he meane that it doth not furnish a minister with knowledge I graunt it If he meane that it doth not make him a minister to vs then were the ignorant Leuiticall priests no priests in the Iewish Church Which ignorant Leuiticall priests in M. Penries iudgement were lawfull priests though not good priests Chap. 11. page 125. reade my answere chap. 12. page 132. M. Penry sayth that vnfitnesse to teach made not a nullitie of the Leuiticall priests office Chap. 11. page 125. M. Penry sayth in an other place that no ministerie is seperated from a gift Againe whosoeuer preserueth not knowledge in his lippes is no minister in his addition page 57. 58. Againe to make a minister there be two things required First a being or life which the Lord onely can giue Secondly a birth which the Church as an instrument of the ordinance of God is to bestowe vpon him by his outward calling These two things are so essentially to be required in a minister that whosoeuer wanteth either of them he cannot possibly be a minister Againe be it that a man haue the outward calling of the Church yet in deede he is no minister vnlesse the Lorde hath giuen him the life of a minister by committing the word of reconciliation vnto his hands in his addi page 45. 46. M. Penry erreth greatly eyther in his first or last propositions If he can reconcile them hee can worke miracles The toughest glewe that is can not make them cleaue together M. Penry offers disputation Chap. 16. page 143. Inscitia audax none so bold as blind bayard Reade my answere Chap. 16. page 143. 144. M. Penry hath these wordes I dare arrest and attaint of high treason against the maiestie of the Highest all both men and Angels who eyther defend the communicating with vnpreaching ministers lawfull or communicate with them in his addition page 65. Sesquipedalia verba euery worde as bigge as a house Great smoke but no fire thankes be to God Your arrest is like Goliaths curse it is not so fearefull as paper shot Thus M. Penry hath troubled HEAVEN CHVRCH COMMON-VVEALTH and HIMSELFE HEAVEN for he being dust and ashes hath beene too bolde and sawcie with God himselfe CHVRCH for he hath offered vnto it for treasure not coales which had bene very base but poison which is very dangerous COMMON-VVEALTH for he hath vndermined the chaire of the Magistrat I hope such conies will be looked vnto HIMSELFE for he hath contriued and broched many proud blasphemous Anabaptisticall fancies I perceiue it is true which that famous man M. Caluine hath written viz. that an Anabaptisticall head is immensum deliriorum mare a vast Sea of dotages Calu. contra Anabapt CHAP. 1. A DEFENCE OF SVCH points in R. SOMES last treatise as M. Penry hath dealt against R. Some Before that I answere M. Penryes booke I am to desire the godly Reader to consider weightily of this litle which followeth My two first propositions which M. Penry dealeth against are 1. They which were baptized in the Popish Church by Popish Priestes receiued true Baptisme touching the substance of Baptisme 2. They are the Sacraments of Baptisme and the holy Supper which are deliuered in the Church of England by vnpreaching ministers I. Penry YOu handle two needelesse pointes First that They which were baptized by Popish Priests c. Secondly that They are the Sacraments of Baptisme c. In these two pointes M. Some you haue proued nothing that my writings haue denied R. Some I doe see as yet no difference betwene vs. If M. Penry denieth them not to be Sacraments which are administred by Popish priests vnpreaching Ministers hee can not deny Popish priests and vnpreaching Ministers to haue a calling c. For it is a rule in Diuinitie Sacramentum nullum sine ministro that is No Sacrament without a minister My thirde proposition which M. Penry censureth is 3 The godly are not polluted
which receiue the Sacrament at the handes of an vnpreaching Minister I. Penry Paul communicated since his conuersion with those Priests that were as vnlearned as euer any Which he would not haue done if inabilitie to teach had made them no Priestes R. Some Then in M. Penryes iudgement the holy Apostle was not polluted by communicating with vnpreaching Ministers Can any man if he haue but halfe an eye suspect that M. Penry dissenteth from me in iudgement What then may I thinke against whom he hath written Well I must be content with the measure he offereth me My comfort is that he shall gaine and I lose nothing by it Yea I assure my selfe by Gods grace that Gods Church shal gaine by this difference Hee pretendeth great desire of a learned Ministerie but his eagre defence of ignorāt Leuiticall priests bewrayeth him If I had written so much for ignorant Ministers the great bell had bene rung out before this I should haue had it on both sides of mine eares I haue dealt very earnestly and humbly by writings and speache for a learned Ministerie I haue receiued very comfortable answere of very great and honourable personages who haue alreadie thankes be to God employed some and will I doubt not employ more in the Churches seruice The Lord increase that blessing for his Christs sake The marke I feare which M. Penry leauels at is simply to condemne the outwarde calling of the Ministers in our Church and so to shake hands with the Anabaptisticall Recusants Though he hit not that white hee will hardly misse that Butte If hee bee throughly searched it is not vnlike to fall out so Some part of his writings looke shrewdly that way CHAP. 2. ALMIGHTIE GOD NEVER called any to the holy ministerie either in the olde or newe Testament but he furnished them with giftes fitte for that holy function THE Israelites liued in slauerie and drudgerie in Egypt They were as rude grosse as might be When the Lord would make his Tabernacle he furnished Bezaleel Aholiab of the tribes of Iuda Dan for that excellent worke He gaue them skill in working all kind of broiderie Exo. 31. 36. chap. When Salomons Temple should be built Almightie God furnished Hiram of Tyrus for that stately worke 1. Kin. 7. If Almightie God for the framing and building of the Tabernacle and Temple which were figures of the Church did so excellently beautifie Bezaleel Aholiab and Hiram it is great wickednesse to thinke that his Maiestie did euer send any vnfurnished to build his spirituall Tabernacle and Temple which is his spouse bodie Citie c. When the Lord commaunded Aaron Eleazar c. to be consecrated his Priests and consequently to teach to pray for the Israelites and to offer sacrifices in which three branches the Priests office consisted he furnished them with excellent furniture for that honourable seruice The words of God himselfe are cleare for this My couenant was with Leui of life and peace and I gaue him feare and he feared me and was afraide before my Name The Lawe of trueth was in his mouth and there was no iniquitie found in his lips he walked with me in peace and equitie and did turne many away from iniquitie Mal. 2. It is a positiue law of Almightie God The Priests lips shall keepe knowledge c. Mal. 2. It is a Canon of the Apostle A minister must be apt to teach 1. Tim. 3. If Almightie God had by any warrant of his commended the Israelites heretofore to the charge of ignorant Leuites or his Church since to ignorant ministers he had broken a statute lawe and Canon of his owne and had bin greatly touched in honor Those Leuiticall priests were sent of God and pastors according to his heart which were able to feede Gods people with knowledge and vnderstanding Iere. 3. Those Leuitical priests which were vnfit to teach were neuer of Gods sending though they were of the line of Aaron Almightie God disclaimes them in these wordes My people are destroyed for lacke of knowledge because thou hast refused knowledge I will also refuse thee that thou shalt be no priest to me Hose 4. Esay was a famous man for birth and eloquence Before that hee was sent to denounce and deliuer Gods iudgements and mercies to Ierusalem and Iuda c the Lorde did singularly furnish him with knowledge speach courage c. Esa 6. and 50. Chap. Ieremy was an excellent Prophet When the Lord would vse his seruice he touched his mouth furnished his heart c. Iere. 1. In like sort dealt Almightie God with Micheas he made him a complete man Mich. 3. Elizeus attended on the plough 1. Kin. 19. Amos on the herde Amos 1. and 7. Chap. The Lorde did not vse the ministerie of Elizeus and Amos vntil he had furnished them with skill wisedome courage c. Our Sauiour Christ did not send any vniuersitie men at the first to preach the Gospel least the conuersion of men should be attributed to learning and eloquence He called rude and base men from their occupatiōs to be his Apostles Before he sent them to be his trumpets to deliuer his message he cast them as it were into a newe molde he gaue them speciall furniture Iohn 20. Act. 2. If the Lorde Iesus had not dealt thus with them how could they haue acquited themselues in preaching and disputation as they did for they attended before on fishing and other trades Saint Paul setting out in orient colours the largesse and bountie of our Sauiour Christ to his Church after his Ascension hath these wordes He gaue some to bee Apostles and some Prophets and some Euangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the gathering together of the Saints for the worke of the ministerie and for the edification of the body of Christ Eph. 4. If these here mentioned had bin vnfurnished First Christs gift had beene no benefite but a burthen Secondly how shoulde the Saints haue bene gathered his body built his sheepe fed his spouse garnished Those Princes and Captaines which send vnskilfull Ambassadours vntrained souldiers on ambassade and warfare doe greatly stayne and dishonour themselues Almightie God which is the greatest Prince and most valiant Captaine did neuer fault in this If he had hee had giuen his glory and the Church a grieuous blowe I confesse God giues not to all his seruants like furniture Some haue ten some fiue some two some one talent which talēts must neither be buried in the earth nor wrapped in a napkin If they be vsed they will multiplie as the loaues in the Gospel They which cannot feede with manchet must feede with barlie bread Rammes skinnes goates haire were amongst the holy offrings as well as gold siluer brasse purple c. Exod. 25. If none are called by almightie God to the holy ministerie but such as he hath furnished with giftes in some measure it is the duety of the ciuill and ecclesiasticall magistrates to prouide that
kingdome hee and his sonnes in the middes of Israel Deut. 17. I frame my argument thus The king is commaunded to reade the lawe of God that hee may learne to feare God and decline pride therefore the reading of the law of God doth edifie In king Iosias time the booke of the lawe was found by Hilkiah the Priest This booke was read in the Lordes house The king was present so were all the men of Iuda the inhabitants of Ierusalem and the Priests and the Leuites and all the people from the greatest to the smallest c. 2. Chron. 34. I make my argument thus The booke of the lawe was not read in vaine in the Lordes house c. 2. Kings 22. therefore it did edifie All the wordes of my mouth are righteous there is no lewdnesse nor frowardnesse in them They are all plaine to him that will vnderstande and streight to them that would find knowledge Prou. 8. Therefore the holy Scriptures both read and preached doe edifie His salubriter praua corriguntur paruanutriuntur magna oblectantur ingenia Aug. Epist 3. The holy Scripture hath in it milke for babes and stronger meate for them that are of age Heb. 5. The holy Scripture is a shallowe water where in the lambe may wade and a great sea wherein the Elephant may swimme The Lawe and the Prophets were read in the Churches of Antiochia and Ierusalem Act. 13. and in Nazareth Luke 4. If the reading of the holy Scriptures doe not edifie why were the law and Prophets read in the Temple and Synagogues The Apostle writeth thus to the pastours and people of Colosse Let the worde of Christ dwell in you plenteously c. Coloss 3. Therefore Gods people are not to be barred from the reading of the holy Scripture If it doeth not edifie they were iustly barred by the Popish Cleargie Victorinus was an Oratour in Rome By reading the Scriptures he became a Christian Mirante Roma gaudente ecclesia that is Rome marueyled at Victorinus conuersion Gods Church was glad of it Aug. Confess lib. 8. cap. 2. Gods speach vnto vs I am sure doth edifie when the Scriptures are read God speaketh vnto vs. The holy Scriptures are Dei Epistola c. that is Gods Epistle vnto vs. By reading the Scriptures Gods people do more easily receiue Gods holy truth and espie Popish absurdities and Anabaptisticall fancies They which mislike the reading of the scriptures are Zwingfildians that is absurde heretikes What then is master Penry which writeth that the worde barely read and to no other purpose then to edifie by reading is not wholesome doctrine If any shall gather of this I haue set downe that I am an enemie to the preaching of the word hee deserueth no answere My iudgement is If the reading of the holy scriptures doeth edifie that sounde preaching doeth edifie much more By sound preaching I vnderstand the giuing of the true sense of the scripture and applying it to the profite of the auditours Thus did Ezra Christ the Apostles preach This course I am sure doeth highly please God and bringeth many sheepe into the Lordes folde The Lorde increase the number of such teachers that Gods religion may flourish as Aarons rod did and that Popish and Anabaptisticall errours may be deuoured as the roddes of the Egyptian sorcerers were Ille huic doctrinae inimicus est animus qui vel errando eam nescit esse saluberrimam vel odit aegrotando medicinam Agust Epist. 3. CHAP. 5. A DEFENCE OF THAT which hath bene written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie and the communicating with them By IOHN PENRY THere be two things M. D. SOME wherein you by oppugning that trueth which out of the worde of God I had set downe concerning the two former questions haue bene wanting both vnto your selfe and to the cause the defence whereof you vndertooke The former want of the two appeareth by your spare dealing in a matter of such great weight wherin you haue dealt with so illiberal a hand that what hath bene written by you might seeme to proceede rather from any then from a man whose gifts and learning seemed to promise the affording of greater and more weightie matters then any set downe in that treatise R. Some Your beginning is full of courage I do not wonder at it He that runneth alone is alwayes formost You accuse me to withstande Gods trueth A sore charge If true I must reuerse my iudgement if vntrue true you haue dealt iniuriously with me When Ioas was aduanced to the Imperiall Crowne of Iuda Athalia cried Treason Treason 2. Chron. 23. A hard speach against king Ioas Iehoiada c. But Athalia her selfe was the Traitour You shall apply this I haue dealt you say verie sparingly in a matter of great importance If I haue so your aduantage is greater If the seede sowen in my booke were like yours I might be iustly thought to bee verie prodigall My treatise I perceiue is not for your tooth it is simple in your eye Aquila non capit muscas It hath pleased many I thanke God of excellent learning and wisedome to like of it That is my comfort Instar mille Platonis calculus I make very meane account as yet of your iudgement You are not read you are to seeke in the principles of diuinitie you haue broched grosse errours you know not your ignorance For that knowledge which Almightie God hath giuen me I thanke his Maiestie verie humbly It is more I confesse then I am worthie of God giue me grace to vse it to his glorie I. Penry The number of my reasons were many you onely haue touched two of them the rest are not dealt with And therefore the cause as yet remaineth whole For be it you had answered these two as you haue not yet had you not satisfied the doubtfull conscience of those that know not in these points which way to turne them as long as any one of my reasons remayned vnanswered R. Some Your reasons I confesse haue number but they want weight I haue confuted three of them The first of the three is accompted by you a pillar of marble But I haue not you say dealt with the rest Content yourselfe I haue made no fault I answered such and so many as were deliuered to me by some of your faction When I had finished my treatise your booke was brought me before I knew not that you were the father of them You denie that I haue answered any of your reasons It is easie to say so and you might worst haue sayde it A partie is vnfit to be a Iudge Your reasons are all of one stampe therefore the ouerthrow of the principall is the ouerthrow of all Your followers vvhich knowe not which way to turne them may thanke both you and themselues you for sowing themselues for reaping such giddie fancies It is an easie thing to leade and fall into an Anabaptisticall maze They will not bee satisfied you say before
euery one of your reasons bee answered A peremptorie resolution They are pinned be like on your sleeue I hope wee shall not haue a Pythagoras of you Woulde you haue your boisterous speech go for an Oracle and cary all as a violent streame before it God forbid It were a hard case I trust you desire it not If you doe you are not like to haue it I. Penry In this point there is also another want which I would had beene redressed And that is of two sortes First a manifest going from the controuersie for the question being whether ignorant men not ordeyned of God for the gathering together of the Saintes bee ministers or no you leaue that and proue the Sacraments administred by them viz. by popish priests our dumbe ministers in the dayes of blindnes and ignorance to be sacraments which is no part of the matter in controuersie but an other point to be discussed if men will be gotten at all to enter thereunto when the former is determined and decided R. Some Your speeches are very idle I swarue not one iot from the cause I dealt in For proofe of this consider what I write Certaine in London gaue out in my hearing first that such as were baptized by Popish Priests in the Popish Church and by vnpreaching ministers in our Church receiued no baptisme Secondly that the Godly were polluted which receyued any Sacrament at the hands of vnpreaching ministers To heale these sores I was desired to prouide a plaister I did so and God hath giuen a good blessing vnto it All this time your booke was as great a stranger to me as it is nowe to the Duke of Medina What say you M. Penry Haue I faulted as you imagine Had you any the least cause so roughly to seaze vpon me and to charge me with going from the point Bee iudge your selfe yea I refuse not the iudgement of your disciples if they haue any dramme of equitie in them I. Penry Secondly your reasons are so fewe and so commonly knowen vnto al that for their number a small deale of paper might conteyne an answere vnto them for their noueltie they could not put a man that had according vnto knowledge but once allowed of the cause to any great labour in answering them As being things so commonly obiected by al learned or vnlearned that hold our readers to be ministers and thinke it lawfull to communicate with them as by course of speech they fall vnto that discourse where all men may easily see that there was a great ouersight committed by M Some in deeming that the oppugning of a cause countenanced by most of the Godly learned would bee taken in hand by any who could not answere the reasons which he might be sure would be obiected by all And who could bee ignorant that the odious controuersie concerning the profanation of baptisme both by Popish Priestes and our dumbe Ministers would offer it selfe in the forefront to withstande the trueth that the ciuill Magistracie the ministerie of the dumbe Leuites the corrupt outwarde calling of our readers woulde require an answere which are the reasons and the onely reasons vsed by you R. Some If my arguments be fewe I haue done you pleasure for they are sooner answered They haue you say no noueltie I like them the better for they are as I desired If they bee not for your diet I doe not passe my thought is taken If nothing were good or bad but that which you like or mislike precious pearles should go for tile sherdes and pebble stones for Diamonds Tichonius a Donatist said of himselfe and his fellowes Quod volumus sanctum est Your musicke I hope is not like his If it bee you are too imperiall You will not be abidden What and how weake my reasons are must bee decided hereafter for your wordes are no arguments If my reasons were sutable to your answeres they were very wofull Your odious speech that I withstand the trueth is vsed often it is a speciall flowre in your booke This course hurts you and not me It hurts you for it bewrayes your humour It hurts not me for your tongue cannot disgrace me I. Penry The last want I finde in you is conteyned in the insufficiencie of your reasons which euidently shewe the insufficiencie of the conclusion that would be inferred by them Your reasons are all of them faultie either because they desire that for graunted which is the question or make those things of like nature wherein there is a great dissimilitude From the first of the two faults it commeth to passe that you take for graunted that the writings of reuerend and godly men as of Augustine M. Beza c. will proue that which the worde of the eternall God doth not warrant Hence you take it granted that Popish Priests were ministers that the outward approbation of the Church maketh a Minister that whensoeuer the word of institution is pronounced with the outwarde element there must presently be a Sacrament that I take an euill Minister for no Minister that there was a nullitie both of Caiphas ministerie because he came in by briberie and of the litigious Ministers in the Church of Philippi c. Howsoeuer you take those things as graunted principles yet they are the poynts in controuersie and so farre from being yeelded vnto by me that I haue shewed euery one of them to be manifestly false R. Some You finde many faults You are a hard man you couer none Moates with you are beames and molhils mountaines yea no moates and no molhils are beames and mountaines if they appeare at your barre It pleaseth you to giue out that all my reasons are faultie If you meane in your eye I doe easily graūt it If you meane in the eye of the learned you mistake the matter But what are the faultes which you pursue so hotly Forsooth I take that you say for graunted which is the question viz. that Popish priests were ministers that whensoeuer the word of institution is added to the element there is a Sacrament and that such a thing is thus and so because Augustine and Beza write so Your tongue is no slander Did I euer say or write that Popish priestes had a lawfull calling I haue written I confesse that Popish priests haue a calling though a faultie one Of this iudgemēt are Beza Caluin the reformed Churches But all these are wide of the Butte onely you do hit the white you wil teach them Sus Mineruam It becōmeth not the house Did I euer say or write that whensoeuer the worde of Institution is added to the elemēt there must presently be a Sacrament There is no sillable in my treatise that lookes that way You imagine I say so and of this absurd conceite you conclude that priuate men children women idiots in my iudgemēt may administer a Sacramēt You pretend great sinceritie but your dealing with me in this and some other points is neither honest nor scholerlike It
to bumbast your Treatise Honest Matrones vse no painting but harlots doe Simple trueth needes no lies to welt and gard it grosse errours haue neede of such Vermilion They which haue either heard my Sermōs or read my writings doe knowe very well that I allowe none whatsoeuer without a calling to administer a Sacrament or preach the word therefore neither woman nor priuate man Yea mine owne wordes in this present chapter are as cleare as the sunne viz. Popish priests doe retaine the essentiall forme of Christes baptisme c. which Popish priests haue a calling thogh a faultie one It is very strāge that you could not see this I perceiue the vaile of malice did hinder your sight The odious instance you mention doeth best become your Spirit It is sutable to the rest of your writings that is most absurd and childish I. Penry I would be fulsory that the errours of the Catabaptists or Anabaptists coulde not bee confured by you with sounder reasons then this you haue brought and I would be also sory that you shoulde defende such absurd consequents as I wil driue you vnto whether you will or no vnlesse you reuoke as I hope you will that which you haue written Pardon me I pray you I deale as reuerently as I may with you retayning the maiestie of the cause I defend and I deale not against you but against an erroneous assertion which I now leaue desiring you very earnestly that you would consider howe vnreuerently the ordinance of God in the holy Sacraments is dealt with when the same is made to depende vpon the pronouncing of a few sill ables without any consideration either of the person who is to administer or of the substantial forme of consecration conteined in the exposition of the holy institution of baptisme the inuocation of the Name of God all which are necessarily required in the administration of baptisme and could not possibly be in Egypt where all was and is couered vnder the darkenes of a strange tongue R. Some You pretend great sorrow for me I do not thanke you for it Be sorie for your owne absurdities which are many grosse The absurde consequents which you will driue me perforce vnto vnlesse I reuerse my writings are easily numbred They are not one thankes be to God Your lusty speech can not daunt me It is but a visour I haue bene long acquainted with the boysterous speeches of such ignorant and bolde companions as you are Touching the argument nowe in hand betweene vs spare me not I desire no fauour I will not reuoke any iot I haue set downe You desire pardon of me If you recant your Anabaptisticall errours you shall haue an easie suit Otherwise I do and wil account verie basely of you Hath the cause you deale for Maiestie in it You might haue spared the name of Maiestie verie well It is too costly a garment for such a leprous body as your Treatise is But I must beare with you It is the maner of Sectaries to vse maiesticall loftie words that their ignorant followers may commend them aboue the skies The reuerend dealing you talke of is idle speech I haue and doe refuse it The erronious assertion which you fight against is not mine I did neuer so much as once thinke of it It is yours vse it as you list You may be bolde with it You giue out that I make the Sacrament to depend vpon the pronouncing of a fewe sillables without consideration of the person who is to administer it My answere is that you are a wicked slaunderer You require three things necessarily in the administration of baptisme First one which hath calling to administer it I agree with you in this Secondly the substantiall forme of consecration conteined in the exposition of the holy institution of Baptisme I dissent from you in this and yet doe like sound preaching as well as you Lastly the inuocation of the name of God I say Amen to this Then you adde this Minor but these could not possibly be in Egypt that is in the Popish Church c. Will you stand to the second branch of the three If you doe I may iustly conclude first that you account Consecration not Christs words in baptisme as you ought but some glosse vpon Christes wordes which you ought not Secondly that you denie any Sacrament to be deliuered by Popish Priests vnpreaching Ministers c. And yet you haue said often and haue desired mee to remember that you denie it not I doe not wring your wordes and pull them out of ioynt as you doe mine Such dealing is an argument of a vile nature and wrangling spirit It is verie farre I thanke God from me I doe detest it If I were of your humour I could chase and pursue you hotly for your inconstancie errour Inconstancie for affirming and denying one and the selfe same particular Errour for giuing out that the worde preached is necessarily required to the Essence of the Sacrament If a sermon were necessarily required to the Essence of a Sacrament these absurdities woulde followe First the Sacraments are dead Sacraments that is seales without writing and plaine blankes if there vvant a sermon Secondly if Baptisme be no sacrament vvithout a sermon then can it not regenerate or bee effectuall to any vvhich either haue bene or are baptized vvithout a sermon Obiection of the fantasticall crew The Popish Priests haue no lawfull calling therfore it is no true Baptisme which is deliuered by them R. Some The Argument followes not I confesse that Popish priests haue no lawfull calling yet they haue a calling though a faultie one They which are not lawfully called vnto the ministery are to be accounted in another place then they which haue no calling Caiphas was not in deed the lawfull high Priest for he entred by money and the Priesthood in his time was rent in pieces yet because hee sate in the high Priestes chaire hee was accounted the high Priest A faultie vocation may hurt him that vsurpes an office but it doeth not defile those thinges which are done by that partie This is M. Bezaes iudgement in his 142. question If any shall gather of this that I allow the Popish Priesthoode he deserues rather a censor then confuter For I confesse that Sacerdotium Papisticum est sacrilegium that is that the Popish Priesthoode is Sacriledge I. Penry Your distinction that Popish Priestes haue a calling though a faultie is a begging of the question For as I haue shewed Popish Priests haue no calling at all in the Church and therefore howe can they sit in the chaire of the ministerie Is there a ministerie out of the Church Caiphas priesthood commeth afterward to be considered of R. Some The distinction vvhich you say is mine is in deed M. Bezaes It is tearmed by you a begging of the question Nay rather your answere to M. Beza is beggerly and none at all If Popish priests as you write haue no
to deny them the comfort of baptisme which they cannot haue shoulde they denie to themselues the comfort of the Lordes Supper which they may haue Yea but no vncircumcised might eate the pascal lambe Exod. 12.48 True But what shall we say vnto those that were vncircumcised in the wildernesse fortie yeeres almost Ios 5.5 Did they neuer eate the passeouer all that time If they did the place of Exodus will be quickly answered It is plaine that the passeouer was celebrated in the wildernesse once at the least Nom. 9.1 If euery yeere why should the godly of the familie bee excluded from the action the cause why they were vncircumcised not being in them R. Some You answere very strangely Your wittes I thinke were a wooll gathering If they sinned in partaking the Lordes supper before they were baptized there is great reason they shoulde abstaine from the holy table vntill they bee baptized which Baptisme if the case so required might orderly and easily bee come by But they omitted baptisme you say of ignoraunce not of contempt therefore they sinned not which being vnbaptized did partake the holy Supper I denie your argument My reason is Ignorātia excusat non à toto sed à tanto that is Ignorance maketh the fault lesse it doth not make it none M. Penry at the length toucheth one part of my reason but by his leaue I will first set downe my whole reason and then his answere My reason is this None vncircumcised might eat the passeouer Exod. 12.48 therefore none vnbaptized may receiue the holy Supper M. Penryes answere is conteined in these wordes True But what shall we say vnto those that were vncircumcised in the wildernesse fortie yeeres almost Iosua 5.5 Did they neuer eate the Passeouer all that time If they did the place of Exodus will be quickely answered It is plaine that the Passeouer was celebrated in the wildernesse once at the least Nombers 9.1 If euery yeere why shoulde the godly of the familie bee excluded from the action the cause why they were vncircumcised not being in them Call you this answering There was neuer any such I am sure in Cambridge or Oxford It came I thinke out of Barbarie I hope you are ashamed of it by this time You aske mee whether they which were vncircumcised in the wildernesse almost fortie yeeres did all that time neuer eate the Passeouer My answere is that no such thing appeareth in the text and where the holy Ghost stayeth his penne it becommeth vs to stay our tongues Yea it is cleare in Iosue that the Israelites after they were circumcised did keepe the feast of the Passeouer Ios 5.8.10 You adde If the Israelites being vncircumcised did partake the Passeouer that the place in Exodus will be quickely answered You say true If the skie fall you shall catch Larkes When you proue this if of yours I wil accept your answere Till then you shal pardon me You proceed in this sort It is plaine you say that the Passeouer was celebrated in the wildernesse once at the least Numb 9. Will you conclude of this therefore they which were vncircumcised did eate the Passeouer If you doe I denie your argument My reason is If they had admitted any vncircumcised to the Passeouer they had prophaned the holy Sacrament The wordes in the text are manifest If a stranger dwell with thee and will obserue the Passeouer of the Lord let him circumcise all the males that belong vnto him and then let him come and obserue it and he shall bee as one that is borne in the lande for no vncircumcised person shall eate thereof One lawe shall bee to him that is borne in the land and to the stranger that dwelleth among you Exod. 12. An other reason of yours is the cause why the Israelites were vncircumcised was not in them therefore the godly vncircumcised of the family might not be barred from the Passeouer I answere your argument is naught and verie sawcie for you comptroll Almightie God by whome they were barred This is no pride M. Penry I might say to you as the Apostle in another case O man who art thou that pleadest against God hath not the potter power of the Clay c. Rom. 9. I confesse that the Israelites ceased from circumcision in the wildernes and yet were not faultie in omitting and deferring circumcision for they had Gods speciall dispensation to do so because they were in cōtinuall trauaile and people being newly circumcised could abide no labour For the surer proofe of this point vidz that none which are knowen to bee vnbaptized may either present themselues or be admitted to the holy Supper I offer these reasons to the godly Reader First Baptisme is an entrāce into the visible church the holy Supper is a confirmation of this entrance Secondly they which were of yeeres in the primitiue Church were first baptized and afterwarde receiued the holy Supper This is manifest in these wordes of S. Luke Then they that gladly receyued his worde were baptized and the same day there were added to the Church about three thousand soules And they continued in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and prayers c. Act. 2. By breaking of bread is vnderstanded the partaking of the Lords Supper Thirdly None may present themselues to the holy table before due examination of themselues 1. Cor. 11. This examination consisteth of faith and repentance which faith and repentance are not in them which either wittingly omit or wilfully contemne the holy Sacrament of baptisme which baptisme is the Sacrament of repentance Matth. 3. Calu. Inst. lib. 4. cap. 19. sect 17. Lastly all famous men and Churches are of my side If maister Penry dissent it is no great matter His writings are not as the lawes of the Medes and Persians c. R. Some If such as vvere baptized by popish Priests in the popish Church and by vnpreaching ministers in the Church of England receiued no Sacrament many excellent men haue vsurped the preachers office My reason is It is vnlawful for any man to be a publique teacher in the visible Church which is not by baptisme graft into and so become a member of the visible Church Our Sauiour Christ was baptized of Iohn in Iordane before he preached Mat. 3. and 4. Chap. The Apostle Paule was baptized of Ananias in Damascus before he preached Act. 9. I. Penry None vncircumcised might minister before the altar True but did none of the Leuites that were borne in the wildernes teach Iacob the law or offer the incense of his God in all those forty yeeres R. Some The truth I perceiue is mightie It maketh the enemie many times to confesse it so doth it you in this place Your wordes are cleare for me and flat against your selfe You grant that none vncircumcised might minister before the altar I thanke you for it Of this I conclude therefore none vnbaptized may be a publique teacher in the visible church Thus
you see by the way which may not be forgotten that an argument may bee drawen from the Leuiticall priesthood to the ministerie of the newe testament which priesthood and ministerie are not twinnes are vnmatcheable and cannot stand together I confesse my selfe greatly bound vnto you you deale very liberally with me for you reach me arguments as weapons to smite your selfe withall M. Penry a little after in steede of answering my reason asketh a question after his vsuall manner Did saith he none of the vncircumcised Leuites teach Iacob the lawe or offer incense c. I answere First that no such thing appeareth in the text Secondly that it is against the practise of the Leuiticall priefts in the olde Testament Did euer any student deale so childishly as M. Penry doth is not he a very fit man to censure famous men Churches Caluine Martyr Beza Augustine c. are no body with him I did neuer see him that I knowe of but ex vnguibus leonem I see by his answeres what a deepe clarke he is I. Penry Thus many things you see might be obiected against your reasons and I take the obiections to be of some waight It had bene well you had considered of them before you had published your booke And the Baptisme by vnpreaching ministers must haue better proofes then any you haue brought as yet or els I feare me our posterities will not be satisfied therewith R. Some Your wayghtie obiections are inuincible in your eye Suum cuique pulchrum But they haue neither Suczum nor Sanguinem they haue no pith in them they are lighter then any feather and bewray your ignorance You wish I had considered before hand of your obiections Satis pro imperio You are by your leaue a litle too lordly had I nothing to thinke of but of your absurde fancies you imagine very basely of me My arguments for baptisme by vnpreaching ministers are such as you are vnable to stirre for proofe of this I referre the reader to your vnscholerlike answeres Your feare that the posteritie will not rest in my reasons is a vaine feare c. R. Some The vnpreaching ministers doe adde the worde vnto the Element in the administration of Baptisme therefore it is the Sacrament of Baptisme which is deliuered by them Accedit verbum ad Elementum fit Sacramentum August Tract 80. in Iohan. that is The worde is added to the Element and it becomes a Sacrament By worde in Baptisme is vnderstanded the worde of Institution which is to baptize in the name of the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost c. Of this iudgement are Beza confess Cap. 4. Art 47. and Musculus de sig Sacram. Art 4. I. Penry Your next reason page 23. is slender Readers pronounce the wordes of Institution with the deliuerie of the Element therefore say you they deliuer a Sacrament You haue once already alledged this to prooue popish baptisme page 20. I haue answered it page 29. 30. 31. And the place of Matth. 28.19 brought in by you page 23. prooueth your consequent to bee false For it sheweth that hee who is to baptize must bee also able to teache which abilitie is wanting in our Readers Goe sayth our Sauiour and teache all nations baptizing c. Therefore if hee that deliuereth the Element be not able to teache we cannot be assured that it is a Sacrament Because the commaundement is not generally to all that coulde pronounce the wordes of Institution being thereunto permitted by the corruption of the time but particularly limitted vnto them that can teache vnlesse you will say that the Lorde biddeth them goe teache who cannot teache which were not once to bee conceiued of his Maiestie R. Some Whatsoeuer passeth from me is slender in your opinion All that you deliuer is ex tripode an oracle at the least You answered before wisely like your selfe So you doe in this place semper idem you are no changeling You deny my consequent and doe adde for your reason an obiection set downe by me a litle after My answere to that obiection is extant and very direct I rest in it I did neuer say or thinke that Almightie God did either command or allow any to be a priest in the old or a minister in the new Testament which had not gifts in some measure It pleaseth you to write in your treatise that vnfitnes to teach made not a nullitie of the Leuiticall priests office If you meane that it made not a nullitie before God you conceiue very basely of Almightie God for you make him to allowe ignorant men to be his priests in the olde Testament which absurde course would haue brought great dishonour to his Maiestie and great hurt to the Church of the Israelites I doe nowe but touch this grosse and blasphemous paradoxe of yours and with the dog of Egypt doe as it were sippe and away but I will examine it more surely hereafter that the reader may see clearely as in a Christall glasse what base ware you commend vnto vs for excellent diuinitie I. Penry The corruption in the Church of Englande that the deliuerie of the Element shoulde be seuered from the preaching of the worde is a breach of Gods ordinance you cannot deny Matth. 28.19 Actes 20.7 and therefore vngodly and intollerable Whether it make the action frustrate or no that is not the question R. Some You meane as I take it by the worde added to the Element the worde preached but you doe not say flatly here though you haue a little before that the want of a Sermon maketh the action frustrate that is the sacrament to be no sacrament I confesse that Paul preached at Troas in the administration of the holy Supper Act. 20.7 and that the Apostles did teach the Gentiles before they baptized them Mat. 28.19 But no learned man will conclude of this that a Sermon is simplie necessarie to the Essence of a Sacrament If you will know what I thinke of sound preaching before the administration of the holy sacramēt my answer is that I do greatly both like and commend it Yea I doe wish with all my heart that all the Churches in Englande had able teachers to performe that dutie This minde was I euer of since I knewe what Gods religion and good diuinitie meant Of this minde are all godly and learned men in the Church of England An obiection of the fantasticall sort Christ sayde to his Apostles Goe and teach all nations baptizing c. Matt. 28.19 Therefore if the worde preached bee not added to the Element it is no sacrament of Baptisme Answere The Argument is verie weake I confesse that Christ cōmanded his Apostles first to teach such as were of yeres and alients from his religion and then to baptize them If the Gentiles had not bene first taught they woulde not haue offered themselues nor the Apostles admitted them to the holy sacrament of Baptisme If any will conclude of this place in saint
Matthewe that none whatsoeuer may be admitted to baptisme before they be taught they shut our infants from the holy sacrament and therefore are Catabaptists Master Penry answeres nothing to this So am I eased of some labour R. Some The vnpreaching Ministers do adde verbum aedificans that is an edifying word to the Elements in the administratiō of the holy Supper therefore c. I. Penry Vnpreaching Ministers doe adde an edifying worde vnto the Element therfore it is a Sacrament This reason is the same with the former Which sheweth the great nakednes pouertie of the cause that one reason must be thrise periured to proue the goodnes of it which notwithstanding it can not shew I denie the antecedent and consequent R. Some Your eyes are not matches If they were you might haue seene very easily that no reason of mine is periured once much lesse thrise I am perswaded that if you be not well coniured by the Magistrate you wil proue a strange body You are farre gone alreadie Strange fancies haue almost cōsumed you The Magistrates discipline is the fittest medicine for you If that will not recouer you your disease is desperate You denie both my antecedent consequent My antecedēt was that vnpreaching Ministers do adde an edifying word to the Element That there is verbum aedificans I proue it thus The summe of Christes Sermon in the Institution administration of the holy Supper by himselfe is the worde of Institution in the administration of the holy Supper in the Church of England therefore vnlesse we wil denie the summe of Christes Sermon to bee an edifying worde which no learned man will denie we must confesse that wee haue verbum aedificans that is an edifying worde in the administration of the holy Supper with vs. I. Penry Your reason of the antecedent that the recital of the summe of Christs Sermon that is the words of Institution is an edifying worde is falfe and maintaineth charming For doe you thinke that the worde of institution being as you say the summe of Christs Sermon is then an edifying worde whensoeuer it is recited by a prophane person euen in the prophanation of Gods ordinance Looke 2. Tim. 4.3 and you shall finde that the worde barely read and to no other purpose then to edifie by reading is not holsome doctrine The popish priest either without or within the booke pronounceth in his darke Latine the summe of Christs sermon Is that an edifying word which he prophanely breatheth The word of God vttered is not an edifying worde vnlesse it bee vtered according to the ordinance both in regard of the persons that vtter the same and the ende wherefore it is vttered No learned man wil denie the Lords prayer rightly sayd to be an edifying worde And yet by your leaue no learned man vnlesse he fauoureth charming or poperie will say that the Lords prayer pronounced by an ignorant man in a strange tongue or prophaned by a witch is an edifying word R. Some M. Penry is now in his Ruffe His pride and ignorance appeare in their colours They are proclaimed euen by himselfe He denieth that the recitall of the summe of Christs Sermō by an vnpreaching minister is an edifying word he saieth it maintaineth charming Can we thinke that this man is guided by Gods spirit whose heart conceiued and pen broght forth such blasphemie That the reader may be assured that the summe of Christs Sermon is an edifying word I will first set downe the word of Institution which is the summe of Christs Sermon and then proue the point The word of institution in the holy Supper is The Lord Iesus the same night that he was betrayed tooke bread and when he had giuen thanks he brake it and saide Take eate this is my body which is broken for you this doe ye in remembrance of me After the same maner also he tooke the cuppe when he had supped saying this cup is the new Testamēt in my blood this do as oft as ye drinke it in remembrance of me 1. Cor. 11. That this word of Institution doth edifie it is manifest for it teacheth vs first who did institute the holy Supper The Lord Iesus Secondly at vvhat time The same night that he was betrayed Thirdly vvhat the Elements are in the holy Supper Bread and wine Fourthly what our Sauiour Christ did Hee gaue thankes he brake the bread c. Fifthly what the Lorde Iesus saide when hee deliuered the Elements Take eate c. Doeth this maintaine charming Is there not edifying in this If you be not voyde of grace be ashamed and sorie for your blasphemous levvdnes An other particuler vvhich you reache vnto vs is a bird of the same feather viz. that the vvorde barely read and to no other purpose then to edifie by reading is not holsome doctrine For proofe of this grosse and blasphemous errour you vse three reasons The first is out of S. Paul to Timothee The time will come when they will not suffer holsome doctrine but hauing their eares itching shall after their owne lustes get them an heape of teachers 2. Tim. 4.3 Therefore the vvord barely read and to no other purpose then to edifie by reading is no holsome doctrine This reason cleaues together like a broken potsheard I denie your argument The Apostle in that Chapter commaundeth Timothee to attende carefully vpon preaching c. His reason is Many will loath and hate holsome doctrine they will chuse such teachers as wil tickle their eares and feede their humours 2. Tim. 4.3 Such gracelesse people were in the time of Esay and Micheas Esa 30. Mich. 2. Such were they of Anathoth in Ieremies time Ier. 11. Such a one was Amaziah of Ieroboams Court in Amos time Am. 7. Such were in the Churches of Corinth and Galatia in S. Pauls time Such are they of the fantasticall crewe in our time vvhich pike out teachers as rot out of an apple c. Doe you not perceiue M. Penry howe fitly saint Paul to Timothee doeth serue your turne you haue bene verie bold with him You haue vsed the holy Apostle as Cacus did Hercules oxen therefore I may not thinke much that my writings are depraued by you Your second reason is this the summe of Christes sermon pronounced by a Popish priest either without or within the booke in his darke Latin is not an edifying worde therefore the word barely read and to no other purpose then to edifie by reading is not holsome doctrine Your Antecedent might haue bene kept in No man denieth it It is confessed by all of the religion that the scriptures deliuered in an vnknowen tongue doe not edifie The Apostle proueth this notably 1. Cor. 14. In linguis quas non intelligimus surdi sumus Cic. in Tusc that is when vve heare a strange language vve are as deafe men But I denie your Argument it is as strange as the Popish priests latine is darke Euery childe may see the weakenes of it But I must
Cor. 11.28 in as much as they do not acknowledge it a sinne to communicate where there is no Minister R. Some This reason is all one with your first therefore it is alreadie answered They which offer themselues to the holy Table without due examinatiō of themselues are vnworthy receiuers This examination consists of faith and repentance I. Penry Because they either make the element to bee a Sacrament naturally in it selfe and not by the ordinance of God or els thinke the ordinance of God in the institution of the Sacrament onely to consist in the recitall of the words I baptise thee c. or take eate c. whereas a Minister is a most principall part of the ordinance R. Some You are an vnpleasant Musician You harpe still on one string viz. that vnpreaching Ministērs haue no calling Vnlesse that be graunted you are at a full point No godly man that I knowe maketh the element to be a Sacrament naturally in it selfe or once thinketh that it is a Sacrament when the wordes of institution I baptize thee c. or take eate c. are added to the elemēts by one that hath no calling Only M. Penry is of that iudgement which denieth not that they are Sacraments which are administred by vnpreaching Ministers and yet these Sacraments are but bare elemēts if vnpreaching Ministers haue no calling as M. Pen. affirmeth You make the Minister a most principal part of the Sacrament I graunt the Minister is an instrument to deliuer it but the most principal part life of the Sacramēts dependeth vpō Gods promises expressed in his holy word I. Penry Because they make the Sacraments to be markes no more essential vnto the Church then to other idolatrous Synagogues for the element may be deliuered out of the Church by a publique person euen as substātially as by our meere readers R. Some This reason must needs by a sure one it is so handsomely trussed together The godly communicants confesse the Sacraments to be essential marks of the Church that idolatrous Synagogues are vnworthie of such precious iewels I graunt that water which is the outward element in Baptisme may be deliuered by any either womā or priuate man without the Church but it shall not be a Sacrament as that is which is deliuered by vnpreaching Ministers If I should tel you that a Sacrament hath bene deliuered out of the Church you would accompt it a strange paradoxe What I thinke of it doeth appeare in an other place of this treatise But what if M. Penry denieth not that baptisme hath bene and is deliuered out of the Church That hee doeth not deny it it is manifest His owne words are these Wil you hold that there is a Church in Popery the assertion is dāgerous c. pag. 25. And a litle after he hath these words In Popery there is no Church pag. 27. M. Penry in other places of his booke denieth not that such as were baptized in Poperie receiued true baptisme therfore he denieth not that a Sacrament is deliuered out of the Church c. euen by Popish priestes which as hee saith haue no calling at all in the Church I. Penry They approue the finne of the vnpreaching Ministerie R. Some The Apostles receiued the Lordes Supper with Iudas but they did not approue the theft treason of Iudas The godly which desire executiō of iustice at the hands of a heathen or corrupt Magistrate can not be said to approue either Paganisme or corruption in the Magistrate for then the Apostle sinned grosly in appealing vnto Caesar Acts. 25. The godly communicants do not approue any sinne of the ignorant Ministerie for they condemne it and pray against it I. Penry Because they are perswaded that Christ doeth deliuer vnto them the seales of their saluation by the handes of those that are not Ministers to wit by vnpreaching readers In all which points the godly sinne therefore are polluted in communicating with vnpreaching Ministers R. Some Not one learned man in this land that I can heare of is so perswaded They al do confesse that vnpreaching Ministers haue a calling and that the godly receiuing the Sacrament at their handes are parakers of the seales of their saluation If you and your crewe be otherwise affected God sende you other mindes Iohn Penry In his addition Page 65. And I dare arrest and attaint of high treason against the Maiestie of the highest all those both men and Angels who either defende the communicating with them lawful communicate with them or tollerate them as ministers vnder their gouernement R. Some You lay on loade but it is fulmen sine tonitru blacke cloudes but no raine When your single arguments will not serue the turne you play the officer and doe arrest for traitours against God all the Magistrates and learned men of this lande The best is Almighty God hath not put his mace into your hands It is a note of a false prophet to kill the soules of them that die not Ezech. 13. That they are not polluted which receiue the Sacraments at the hands of vnpreaching Ministers is sufficiently prooued Such Bishops and Patrons as haue either ordeined or presented vnfit men to the holly ministery and clergie liuings haue much to answere for I doe not defend or excuse such Bishops Patrons or ministers I know they haue highly offended the maiestie of God and I pray God with all my heart that this sore may be healed I. Penry They of whose ministery there is a Nullitie before God although they haue an outward calling ought not to be accoumpted ministers therefore not to be communicated with R. Some I deny your Antecedent My reasons are first there was a nullitie before God of Caiphas priesthood for he entred by money and the priesthood was diuided betweene him and Annas against the Lords order Calu. Luc. 3. yet Caiphas is called the high Priest by the Euangelists Matth. 26. Iohn 18. Secondly there was a nullitie before God of the ministery of some in Philippi which preached Christ of contention and to adde more affliction to Paules bandes Philip. Chap. 1.15 16. But these are accompted ministers by the Apostle verse 15.18 If any shall deny that there was a nullitie before God of their ministerie I proue it thus they had not an inward calling M. Penry saieth that an inward calling is contained in the sufficiencie of gifts and willingnesse to practise them Pag. 45. If M. Penry meane the practise of gifts to Gods glory I say Amen vnto it I confesse that they of Philippi had gifts in some measure but they had not willingnesse to practise those gifts to Gods glory which willingnesse c. is one of the necessary branches of an inwarde calling That they of Philippi had not this willingnes c. it is manifest for they sought themselues practised their gifts wholy to encrease the Apostles afflictions I. Penry Concerning the Nullitie of our readers ministery we are to know that
there is a nullitie of a ministery before God eyther because the action proceedeth from a corrupt minister as Psalm 50.16 whome God woulde not haue to deale with his ordinances or from a corrupt and euill ministerie which is none of Gods ordinance The action of the former is substantiall in regard of vs of the latter wee knowe no substance it can haue Of the former there is a nullitie onely in the sight of God of the latter both in respect of the Lorde and also of vs. The nullitie of our readers ministerie is of this latter sort namely such as we ought in no wise to account a ministery Whereas therefore you grant that there is a nullitie of our readers ministery before God and yet affirme them to be ministers you swarue from the point and so your answere is nothing to the purpose but a desiring of the question after your vsuall manner As Caiphas then and the rest of the sleepy dogges against whome the prophet cryeth out were wicked men God would not haue such to bee his ministers hither referre Esay 1.13 But as they had the ministery which God allowed of they were ministers vnto the people This ministery our readers want therefore they can be no ministers neyther in respect of the Lorde nor of the Church Shemaiah was a wicked man and a false prophet so were the rest of his stampe The Lord detested both them and their ministerie Zephaniah and Caiphas high priests with their company were as wicked as any of the false prophets the Lorde abhorred the men but their ministery was his ordinance Hence M Some it followeth that neither the briberie of your Caiphas nor the blindnesse of your ignorant Leuites can make such a nullitie of their prietshood as they should bee no priestes vnto the people And therefore great reason why the parents of our sauiour and the rest of the godly wherof you speake Page 28. 29. should not leaue the seruice of God for the pollution of the priests Esay speaketh against blind watchmen Chap. 56.10 but chap. 42.19 20. it shall appeare that they sawe many things but kept them not I pray you conferre the places and it can neuer be prooued that any of them were so blinde as they could not declare by preaching the generall vse of the sacrifices and ceremonies Their wants might be many but not like the insufficiency of our readers Be it they were as insufficient yet their ministerie might be allowable Your answere consisteth of seuerall branches I will handle the chiefest of them so briefly as I can Your first branch is that the ministery of the ignorant Leuiticall priests is allowed of God but that the outward calling of our vnpreaching ministers is not allowed of God Of this you conclude that the Leuitical priests were ministers vnto the people and consequently that Ioseph and the virgine Mary were not polluted by their Sacrifices but that our vnpreaching ministers are not so to vs. If the action of ignorant ministers be as you write not substantiall in regard of vs then you must deny which before you did not that any Sacrament either was or is deliuered by them I would fayne know why the ministery of the ignorant Leuites should be allowed and not the ministerie of ignorant ministers I confesse freely that I take their cases to be like howsoeuer you mince shift the matter But Ismel your meaning Latet anguis in herba there is a padde in the strawe To proceede you stand very much vpon the outward calling of the ministers in our Church If you repell the vnpreaching minister for his ignorance you can not allowe the ignorant Leuiticall priests If you repell the vnpreaching minister because of his outward calling you may by the like reason discharge the worthiest ministers in this land of the holy ministerie for all haue one and the same externall calling in the Church of England If you be so affected the next newes we shall heare of you will be that you shake hands with our Anabaptisticall recusants Vno absurdo dato multa consequuntur that is Euery absurditie hath many attendantes The second branch of your answere is a comparing or rather preferring the ignorant Leuiticall priests before our ignorant ministers Nobile par neither barrell better herring I must a little while examine this second braunch of yours You tell vs that the wants of the Leuiticall priestes might bee many but not like the insufficiencie of our readers For proofe of this you quote two textes in the Prophet Esay The first is contained in these wordes Their watchmen are all blind they haue no knowledge they are all dumbe dogges they cannot barke they lie and sleepe and delight in sleeping Esa 56. Will you gather of these vvordes that the ignorant Leuiticall priests were more learned and better furnished then the ignorant ministers The prophet Esay saieth that these Leuitical priests had neither rem nor spem that is that they were woe begone If you woulde study seuen yeeres you could not deuise to speake worse of the most ignorant ministers in our Church The second place of the Prophet hath these words Who is blinde but my seruant or deafe as my messenger that I sent who is blinde as the perfit and blind as the Lords seruants Seeing many thinges but thou keepest them not opening the eares but hee heareth not Esay 42. Esay in these verses calleth the Leuiticall priests blinde and deafe not in body but in heart because they did see and heare Gods iudgements with their bodilie eyes and eares and did not obserue them with the eyes and eares of their hearts You can not conclude of this place that the ignorant Leuiticall priests were deeper clerkes then the ignorant ministers in the Church of England The thirde branch of your answere is that the ministery of Caiphas was the Lords ordinance I deny it and do dissent from you in this My reason is Caiphas had not the high prieshood alone therefore his high priesthood was not the Lords ordinance The Antecedent is manifest for Annas and Caiphas were high priests together Luk. 3. The argument followes for the Lords ordinance was that onely one should be the high priest Calu Luk. 3.2 You say nothing here of the contentious ministers of Philippi You take and leaue at your pleasure It pleaseth you to cal Caiphas my Caiphas and the blinde Leuites my ignorant Leuites I should bee spedde I perceiue if I would receiue al that you cast vpon me Before you did lade me with reuerence now you throwe Caiphas and the ignorant Leuites as cobble stones at me You are very liberall but I refuse your ghests I disclaime them and returne them to your selfe You are much fitter to entertaine them then I for you haue magnified Caiphas ministery are a hot pleader for the ignorant Leuiticall priests That appeareth in your wordes which follow CHAP. 11. I. Penry VNFITNES TO TEACH made not a nullitie of the Leuiticall Priests office
Reasons Because it was sufficient to make him a lawfull though not a good Priest for him to be of the line of Aaron R. Some YOu haue examined and censured my reasons at your pleasure I hope I may with your good leaue looke a litle vpon yours My answere is first If your first reason be good then they which receiued the Sacraments at their handes were not polluted If they were not polluted what say you to these arguments viz. The Sacrament may not be receiued at his handes which wanteth outward calling therefore not at his hands which is destitute of the inwarde graces I. Pen. Againe we haue no warrant to receiue an extraordinarie Sacrament But that which is administred by ignorant Ministers is an extraordinarie Sacrament if it be any therefore we haue no warrant to receiue it You know I am sure the father of these two arguments They came out of your owne Mint Secondly if your first reason be good then a corrupt externall approbation made them lawful Priests which had not an inward calling that is sufficiencie of gifts c. If you denie the externall approbation of the ignorant Leuites to be a corrupt approbation I proue it thus It was a breach of Gods owne order therefore it was a corrupt approbation The antecedēt is manifest in these words The Priests lips shall keepe knowledge and they shall seeke the Law at his mouth c. Mal. 2. Therefore the externall approbation of ignorant Leuites was a corrupt approbation I. Penry There was no commaundement concerning the triall of his fitnesse to teache therefore vnfitnesse to teach made not a nullitie of the Leuiticall Priestes office R. Some You proue your antecedent thus Almightie God said to Moses Thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sonnes to execute the Priests office c. Num. 3.10 My answere is No trial of giftes in Aaron his sonnes was needfull at the first for Almightie God did furnish thē accordingly My reason is cōteined in these words of God himselfe My couenant was with him of life and peace and I gaue him feare and he feared me and was afraide before my Name The Lawe of trueth was in his mouth and there was no iniquitie found in his lippes he walked with me in peace and equitie and did turne many away from iniquitie Mal. 2.5 6. God did neuer call any to the holy Ministerie but he gaue them giftes fit for that function I haue proued this point in the beginning of this treatise To thinke otherwise of his Maiestie is great wickednes I hope you will not reason thus There was no commandement cōcerning the trial of gifts in Aaron and his sonnes at the first therefore there was neuer any triall afterward of giftes in Aarons posteritie If you reason thus I denie your Argument My reason is If euery one of Aarons posteritie how vnfit so euer might enter into the Priestes office by the Lords warrant Almightie God might be iustly charged to haue had very little care either of his owne honor or of the Church of the Israelites Yea his Maiestie had flatly broken one of his owne positiue Lawes conteined in these wordes The Priestes lips shall keepe knowledge they shall seeke the Lawe at his mouth Mal. 2. I. Penry It is not mentioned that any were put from the Priesthoode for want of this abilitie whereas the doubt whether they were the sonnes of Aaron Esra 2. and their idolatrie 2. Chro. bereaued them thereof therefore vnfitnes to teach made not a nullitie of the Leuiticall Priestes office R. Some Your reason is very weake It is not mentioned c. therefore none were I deny your argument for it is à non scripto ad nō factum which is not sure in this case If no ignorant Leuiticall Priests were remoued frō the priesthood for their vnfitnes to teach Gods Church had the gouernours did greater wrong I am sure they shoulde haue bene remoued for Almightie Gods resolution is flat in these wordes Because thou hast refused knowledge I will also refuse thee that thou shalt bee no priest to mee c. Hos 4. The wise Prince will displace an absurde Ambassadour The valiant captaine will remooue a cowardly souldier The husbande man will not suffer that drudge to attend on his trough which cannot feede his hogs If such as were not founde within the compasse of Aarons genealogie were remoued frō the Priesthoode they had no wrong for this was a Law of God himselfe Thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sonnes to execute the priests office and the strāger that commeth neere shall be slaine Numb 3.10 If such as committed idolatrie were discharged of the Priesthood they were iustly dealt with Ezech. 44. I. Penry The example of Paul Acts. 21.26 confirmeth this who communicated since his conuersion with those priests that were as vnlearned as euer any which hee would not haue done if inabilitie to teache had made them no priestes Now therefore M. Some to make your Argument from the Leuitical priesthood to be forcible for your vnpreaching Ministers you must prooue that either our Readers Ministerie is a Leuiticall Ministerie that the continuance thereof is vnder the new Couenant or shew that the corrupt approbation for so I name the best outwarde calling they can haue of the Church is as forcible to make them Ministers as was the ordinance of God to make the sonnes of Aaron sacrificing at Ierusalem to be priests R. Some How learned or vnlearned the priests at that time were in Ierusalem appeareth not in that place of the Actes The meaning of S. Luke is this The Apostle Paul was accompted by the Iewes an enemie of Moses Lawe To cleare himselfe of this hee entred into Salomons Temple by the aduise of the Apostle Iames and of the brethren in Ierusalem and was purified Acts. 21.26 Your last reason serues very fitly for my purpose therefore I will vse it as a sworde to cut in pieces some of your fancies Paul you say communicated after his conuersion with those priests that were as vnlearned as euer any was not polluted Of this I conclude therefore they which receiue the Sacraments at the hands of vnpreaching Ministers are not polluted My reason is The ignorant Leuites and ignorant Ministers agree in eodem tertio that is in ignorance But M. Penry replies that an argument from the Leuiticall priesthoode is not forcible for vnpreaching Ministers To proue this he vseth two reasons The first is our readers Ministerie is not a Leuiticall Ministerie therefore an Argument from the Leuitical Priesthood is not forcible for vnpreaching Ministers My answere is I graunt that no ministerie in these dayes is a Leuiticall ministerie for the date of that ministerie is out long ago But I denie your Argument My reason is An argument is and may be forcibly drawen from one thing to another which are vnmatchable All Logicians confesse that similitudes are of things which differ Euery meane Sophister in the Vniuersitie knoweth it It
is very like that you haue forgottē it Such trifles are too base for your great spirits Your second reason is The corrupt approbation of vnpreaching Ministers so you name the best outward calling they can haue of the Church is not so forcible to make them Ministers as was the ordinance of God to make the sonnes of Aaron sacrificing at Ierusalē to be priestes therefore an Argument from the Leuiticall priesthood is not forcible for vnpreaching Ministers My answer is I deny your antecedent and do adde this first that it is as lawfull that is to say vtterly vnlawfull to make vnfit Ministers now as it was before to make vnfit priestes Secondly that it was not Gods pleasure that all the posteritie of Aaron without exception that is tagge and ragge shoulde be admitted to the holy priesthood For neither you nor any man aliue may reason thus The Leuiticall priesthoode must rest in the tribe of Leui therefore euery one of that tribe though vnfit for that holy functiō was to be admitted to the priesthoode You might very soundly haue disputed thus The Leuiticall priesthood must be kept within the compasse of the tribe of Leui by Gods expresse commaundement Num. 3. therefore no stranger might come neere the Lords altar You call the best outward calling in the Church of England a corrupt approbation If you meane it is corrupt in admitting ignorant men to the holy Ministerie so was the ordeyning of ignorāt Leuites at Ierusalem If you meane that the best outward calling in the Church of Englād is simply corrupt that is none at al though sufficient men be admitted I detest your Anabaptistical fancie for then the worthiest Diuines in this land are no Ministers Besides it is confessed of all famous learned men that Gods Church is not necessarily tied in all places and times to one forme in the externall calling of the ministers CHAP. 12. I. Penry THE CORRVPT ALLOWance of the Church cannot make our readers to be substantiall Ministers FOr so all men women without or within the Church might be capable of the Ministerie because all may be capable of this outward allowance Secondly and particularly a man not furnished with naturall capacitie thirdly a man that could not reade though he wanted also the gift of interpretation for such a one might recite the liturgie without the booke fourthly the Church might make a man Minister against his will though he should neuer consent thereunto And this is the willingnes that I meane when I say that the inward calling is conteined in the sufficiencie of giftes and willingnes to practise which willingnes I gather vpon the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vsed of the Apostle 1. Tim. 3.1 Your reason therefore from the malicious Philippian Ministers toucheth not the question Thus Caiphas with his crew of vnworthy and monstrous priestes who within a few pages in your booke haue impudently so often troubled the Reader is answered And I thinke it a great iudgement of God that the ornaments of our English and Welch Ministery for the most part consisteth in the deformitie of such lothsome spots R. Some If by substantial Ministers you meane such as are furnished with giftes in good measure it is the peculiar office of God to make such either miraculously as hee did the Prophets and many in the Primitiue Church or by blessing mens godly studies as in later and our times It passeth the Churches reach by any externall calling to make men furnished ministers which before the external allowance were not furnished by God himselfe therefore to bee of the line of Aaron did make the ignorant Leuites no more to be substantiall priestes then the externall calling nowe doeth make ignorant men to be substantiall Ministers The summe of your reasons may be shut vp briefly in this argument All may be capable as you say of the outward allowance therefore the outward calling of the Church makes not a Minister to vs vnlesse he haue the inward Your antecedent is a speciall one If you were not strangely caried some branches of it might haue bene kept in I trust you do not condemne a prescript liturgie in the Church of God If you do all the reformed Churches dissent from you and their practise doeth apparantly confute you But I leaue that and denie your argument My reasons are first the ignorant Leuites had an outward calling but not an inward yet they were lawful priests by your owne confession Secondly Iudas was called outwardly but not inwardly yet he was an Apostle Lastly the Apostle chargeth Timothee not to lay handes rashly on any 1. Tim. 5. therefore the outwarde allowance is more then you accompt of My reason from the cōtentious Ministers of Philippi c. was a very sure one did ouerthrow your fancie Because you cannot answere it you tell me it toucheth not the question A briefe kinde of answering Caiphas and the Leuiticall priests haue bene alledged no otherwise by mee then by those worthy men Caluine Beza c. before mee The mention of them hath not troubled the godly Reader at al therefore not impudently as you giue out very sawcily I perceiue they haue distempered you for in steade of answering my argument you exclaime vpon them Your gift in answering is very rare You make wash-way of the weightiest argumēts Vnto the lothsome spots in the English and Welch Ministery God graunt either soueraigne medicine to cure them or sounde expulsion to remoue them R. Some Lastly if your antecedent be true viz. that they of whose ministerie there is a nullitie before God although they haue an outward calling ought not to be accōpted ministers what say you to this proposition They of whose magistracie there is a nullitie before God though they haue an outward calling ought not to be accompted magistrates Doe you not thinke this proposition to bee very dangerous I could presse and follow this very farre but I abstaine of purpose I. Penry You demaund what I thinke of this proposition Surely my iudgement is that it is altogether without sense and ouerthroweth it selfe for it is as if you sayd he of whose faith there is a nullitie before God though he be assured of his saluation is not to be accompted a faithfull man Why to be assured of saluation and to haue a nullitie of faith before God can not stand together No more can the outward calling of the magistracy stand with the nullitie thereof For the outward calling maketh a substantiall magistrate But M. Some where is that reason which you could presse so farre is this it they of whose magistracy there is a nullity before God ought not to be accompted magistrates I say your proposition is true assume what you will you know what maner of nullitie I meane R. Some My proposition in your iudgement is without sense You are very peremptory A word I perceiue and a blowe I may say truely that your answere is without sense
vt eadem prorsus à nobis iudicari debeat eo haberi in loco quo aut Mahumetana aut Iudaica quae Christum penitus repudiant ab eius legibus institutis abhorrent Nam sinulla omnino extarent in ea veteris Ecclesiae vestigia Daniel non praedixisset futuram abominationem in loco sancto nequè Paulus perditum illum filium in Templo Dei sessurum Quomodo enim sederet Antichristus in Templo Dei si nullae amplius superessent illius Templi saltem reliquiae aliqua ruinarum vestigia aut quomodo occupare abominatio lucū sanctum si totus adeò esset profanatus vt ne vllus quidem vel exiguus angulus pristinae sanctitati relictus esset Nam etsi praeualet ac latiùs dominari videtur hominum iudicio impietatis regnum Et Christi Ecclesia vsqué eò oppressa ac pene suffocata vt vix spiritum ampliùs trahere possit nondū tamen penitus animam exhalait Viret Tract de Commun fid cum Pap. cer pag. 66. 67. The summe of his wordes is first that the popish Church may not be accompted of as the Mahomet Iewish Churches which refuse Christ altogether Secondly that if no prints of Gods Church remayned in the popish Church Daniel and Paul would not haue foretold the one that abomination should be in the Holy place the other that Antichrist should sit in the temple of God Lastly that the Church of God amōgst the Papists though it be almost smothered hath not as yet giuen vp the ghost Daneus writeth that the Popish Church is the Church and Temple of God not simply but secundum quid that is after a sort His reason is because the popish Church retaineth some printe of the markes and badges of Gods Church Tract de Ant. cap. 17. M. Foxe hath these words Neque enim Romam ita totam c. In Apoc. cap. 13. pag. 235. that is we doe not so seuer Rome frō al felowship of the church that it shal haue no coniunction at all with the body of Christ If M. Penry mislike my first reason let him confute it c. 2 Ieroboam did set vp Calues at Bethel and Dan. In his time the seruice of God was strangely corrupted yet certaine prerogatiues belonging to the Church remained then amongst the Iewes Circumcision which was the Lordes Sacrament could not be so defiled by the vncleane hands of the Iewes but that it was alwayes a signe and Sacrament of Gods couenant therefore God called the infants of that people his children c. In the Popish Church God hath preserued Baptisme c. Besides there remaine amōgst them other remnants vidz the Lords prayer the Articles of the faith the Commandements c. least the Church should vtterly perish c. Lastly Almightie God hath miraculously preserued amongst them the remnants of his people though poorely and thinly scattered c. Of this M. Caluine concludeth that the popish Churches are Churches Institut lib. 4. cap. 2. sect 11.12 If my second reason taken out of M. Caluine please you not confute that part of M. Caluines Institutions 3 If there be no Church at all in Poperie the infants of Papists are not to bee baptized in any reformed Church though some of the religiō doe answere for vndertake the good educatiō of them Which I take to be a great errour Master Caluine and the rest of the learned men in Geneua being required of M. Knoxe to set downe their iudgement touching this question vidz whether the infants of Idolaters and excōmunicate persons might be admitted to baptisme c. deliuer this answere Promissio non sobolem tantum cuiusque fidelium in primo gradu comprehendit sed in mille generationes extēditur Vnde etiam factum est vt pietatis interruptio quae grassata est in papatu c. Calu. Epist 285. The summe of their words is that Gods promise doth not onely comprehend the posterity of the faithfull in the first degree but reacheth vnto a thousand generations and that those children which descended of such ancestours as were godly many yeeres ago do belong to the body of the Church though their parents and grandfathers were Apostates c. M. Beza writeth thus of this argument Iniquū esset Papistas c. Epist 10. The summe of his wordes is that Papists are otherwise to bee accompted of then Turkes because Popery is an aberratiō of the Christian Church Besides because Gods goodnes extendeth it selfe to a thousande generations that it were a hard case to iudge by the profession of the later parents whether the infants pertaine to Gods couenant c. Thus farre M. Beza If any shall reply that Gods couenant hath no place at all amongst the Papists and therefore that their infants are at no hande to bee baptized in our Churches howsoeuer some of the religion offer them in the assemblie to the holy Sacrament M. Caluines answere is Certum est adhuc illic manere residuum faedus Dei exparte quia quamuis c. Cal. Ezec. 16.20 That is It is certaine that the couenant is there on Gods behalfe and therfore that Popish baptisme needeth not to be renued besides that Satan albeit he raigned of late in the Popish Church could not altogether extinguish the grace of God imò illic est ecclesia Alioqui falsum esset Pauli vaticinium vbi dicit antichristum sedere in Dei templo 2. Thes 2.4 That is A Church is there otherwise Paules prophecie that Antichrist should sit in the temple of God were false c. If it shall please the learned reader to reade M. Caluines Commentarie vpon chap. 16. and vers 20. of Ezech. It will be worth his labour A Popish obiection of the absurde Papists and of Master Penry If the Church of Rome be a Church those Magistrates which haue separated themselues and their subiects from the Popish Church are Schismatikes c. Answere Our Magistrates people c. haue seuered themselues not from the Church but from Idolatry not from the common wealth but from tyranny oppressing the common wealth not from the Citie but from the plague which pestereth the Citie c. that is separation is not frō any trueth remaining in the Popish Church nor from the poore Church that is there holden vnder captiuitie but from the corruptions of the Popish Church and from the tyrannie of Antichrist which is more grieuous then the yoke either of Egypt or Chaldaea therfore godly princes people cannot iustly be called Schismatikes Thrasibulus withdrewe himselfe to Phile during the time that thirtie tyrants did teare in peeces the common wealth in Athens Camillus withdrew himselfe to Veies during the time that the Gaules wasted the Citie of Rome If any shal conclude of this that Thrasibulus and Camillus separated themselues from the common wealths of Rome and Athens and not from the tyrannie vnder which the Atheniens and Romanes then were hee reasoneth most absurdly c. The
summe of my answere is conteyned in the writings of that French Gentleman Philip of Mornay Tract de eccle cap. 10. The name of Schismatike is much fitter for proud Penry and his fantastical disciples then for godly Magistrates and people who are most sawcily dealt with by the Anabaptisticall crew Question Whether all our ancestours which liued died in the Popish Church are damned Answere Philip of Morney doeth answere thus As our aduersaries make a difference betweene the Church and the people snatching the name of the Church onely to the Prelates which should bee common to all Christians so wee likewise doe well put a difference betweene the people cleauing to the Church of Rome and the faction of Antichrist betweene them who liue vnder the Popedome and the vpholders and mainteiners of the Pope betweene the inchaunters and those that are inchaunted betweene the Pharisees whom Christ calleth a generation of vipers and the poore sicke woman whom he called the very daughter of Abraham We say that among the poore people which was so long time deceiued vnder the darkenesse of Antichrist there was a part of the body of the visible Church But that the Pope and his mainteiners are the botch of the plague in it which stifleth choketh it as much as it can c. And a little after c. We knowe that the most part of the people were ignorant of those pestilent doctrines which the Schoolemen left in writing that is to say of the principall blasphemies of the Papacie also that the more part did neuer beleeue that they could merite euerlasting life by their owne workes whatsoeuer men preached thereof Againe albeit that through custome and ignorance they went to Saints and Images and frequented Masses and Pilgrimages yet notwithstanding in their conflicts of death they alwayes principally claue to the crosse of Iesus Christ We haue an example of S. Barnard himselfe and we haue seene many more in our time Saint Barnard in certaine places sauoureth of the contagion of his time as it was hard hee should doe otherwise But see his refuge when hee was tempted of the deuill in his last dayes I confesse saith he that I am not worthie of it I knowe that I can not by mine owne workes obteine the kingdome of heauen But my Lord hath obteyned it by a double right by inheritance from the father and by the merite of his passion Nowe he is contented with the one and giueth me the other And when I attribute it to my selfe by the gift which he hath made vnto me thereof I cannot be confounded And in another place My merite is the mercie of the Lord. And I am not poore in merites because hee is rich in his mercies I haue greatly sinned but I will comfort my selfe in the stripes of my Lord. Euen so likewise we assure our selues in the mercy of God that a great number helde the foūdation in Iesus Christ whereof the Apostle speaketh albeit Antichrist shooke it as it were endeuoured to ouerturne it in them all that he might Phil. Mor. Tract de Eccle. cap. 9. Of this iudgement is that famous man Peter Martyr in his Commentarie vpon the Epistle to the Corinthians cap. 15. vers 18. I rest in their iudgement CHAP. 18. THAT POPISH PRIESTS haue a calling though a faultie one IF popish priests haue no calling at all Baptisme was deliuered in the Popish Church by priuate men which is a grosse absurditie 2 Many Popish Priests after detestation of their popish errours were allowed ministers in the reformed Churches without imposition of hands c. therefore in the iudgement of the best Churches they had before a calling though a faultie one Those execellent fathers and Martyrs Cranmer Rydley Hooper Latymer c. which were sometimes Popish priests were allowed Ministers of the Gospel without imposition of hands c. Caluine writing of Popish priests hath these wordes Si verò quis istiusmodi c. and a litle after Si obijcitur Pauli Canon ille quo traditur eligendum Episcopum irreprehensibilem esse oportere respondeo non hîc agi meo quidem iudicio de simplici vel absoluta electione sed de approbatione vel restitutione ad certum munus propter interuenientem corruptionem And a litle after Duo sunt in illo statu summa vitia Vnum quod non recta ratione instituti sunt ad munus Eeclesiasticum c. The summe of M. Caluines words is that such Popish priests as detested popery and were fit to bee employed in the ministerie might be allowed or rather restored to the Ecclesiasticall function first because they were not before rightly instituted Secondly ad corrigendum praecedentem defectum that is to correct the former defect c. Calu. Epist 373. By which wordes it is manifest that Popish priests euen in the popish Church had and haue in M. Caluines iudgement a calling though a faultie one The same M. Caluine in an other place hath these vvordes Cogimur fateri penes illos esse ordinarium ministerium that is We are compelled to confesse that papists haue an ordinarie ministery Calu. Ezech cap. 13. v. 9. If M. Penry will take exception against M. Caluines writings the iudgement of all Gods Churches let him confute them very soundly If he can doe that he shal be accōpted the rarest man aliue If he can not which I am very sure of he shall not be Magnus Apollo that is goe for a Patriarch as his ignorant followers do accompt him but he shal be dubbed as he is in deede an other Neuius that is a loude and clamorous companion If either M. Penry or any of his fantasticall crewe shall thinke much of my speech I doe not passe I confesse freely that sharpe wordes are not sufficient plaisters for such proude sores I hope the Magistrates will consider further of him and such as he is Duro nodo durus cuneus c. that is A wedge of yron is fittest for knottie vvood CHAP. 19.20 THEY WHICH ARE ONCE baptized must not be baptized againe THe couenant of grace and peace which is made and sealed vp in baptisme is perpetuall for Almightie God remaineth euer faithfull in his couenant therefore c. 2 If Baptisme should be iterated Gods fidelity which cannot be made voyde by our infidelitie should be called into question which were a haynous sinne 3 Circumcision was neuer iterated therefore Baptisme may not Baptisme is to vs as circumcision was to the Israelites 4 As the carnall generation is one so the spirituall generation is one Semel nascimur semel renascimur 5 It appeareth not in Gods booke that any which receiued baptismum fluminis were rebaptized baptizmo fluminis 6 Agrippinus the Bishop of Carthage was author of iterating baptisme c. Vinc. Lir. Cap. 9. CHAP. 20. THERE IS TRVE BAPtisme in the Popish Church SVch as were and are baptized in the popish Church were and are engraffed by baptisme into a true Christ therefore
they receiued true Baptisme The argument followeth for baptisme is an engraffing into the true Christ Rom. chap. 6.3 The Antecedent is manifest in M. Penries iudgement for he will not haue them to offer themselues againe to baptisme therefore he is either a Catabaptist or els there was and is euen in his iudgement true baptisme in the popish Church 2 They which were circumcised in the time of Ieroboam and Caiphas were accompted true circumcised persons although at that time the state of the Church was almost altogether peruerted and corrupted therefore such as were and are baptized in the popish Church c. This argument is vsed of the greatest learned men of the religion and is allowed of all the reformed Churches 3 Caluine and Beza are resolute for this Calu. Ion chap 1. v. 16. Ezech 16. v. 20. Epist 103. and 104. Beza Confess chap. 4. Art 49. and chap 7. Art 11. Epist 10. and 81. Viretus hath these words Baptismum qui à sacerdotibus Papisticis collatus est c. that is we do allow popish Baptisme albeit we condemne the vaine and superstitious ceremonies which are vsed in it Tract de cōmun fid cum Papist cer pag. 64. Of this iudgement are all learned men and all reformed Churches None dissent but Catabaptists Anabaptists M. Penry and the rest of the fantasticall order CHAP. 21 THERE HATH BENE AND may be true Baptisme out of the Church THe Donatists thought otherwise in Augustines time but they are notably cōfuted by Augustine in his bookes de baptis contra Don. 2 True Circumcision was amongst the Edomites 3 They which were baptized out of the Church by heretikes neither were nor might be rebaptized therefore they receiued true baptisme The Antecedent is manifest for it is a rule in Diuinitie and receiued of all learned men Baptizati ab haereticis non sunt rebaptizandi that is they which are baptized of heretickes are not to be rebaptized The reasons are Where the essentiall forme of baptisme is obserued non haereticus sed haeretici manu Christus baptizat that is not the hereticke but Christ doth baptize by the hand of the hereticke Aug. passim de bapt cōt Don. It is not the baptisme of hereticks or schismaticks but of God the Church wheresoeuer it be found and whithersoeuer translated Aug. de bapt contra Don. lib. 1. cap. 14. The heresie is theirs the errour is theirs c. but baptisme which is Christes must not be accompted theirs Aug. de baptis contra Don. lib. 3. cap. 11. Ciprian was of an other iudgemēt in the Church of Carthage but hee was condemned for that errour by the best Churches in that age 4. The Arke of the testament which was taken of the Philistims lost not the vertue of Sanctification 1. Sam. 4. Dagon can teach vs that 5 Si foris nemo potest c. that is if no mā can haue any thing which is Christs out of the Church neither can any man haue any thing which is the deuils within the Church Aug. de bapt contr Don. lib. 4. cap. 7. 6 Non itaque ideo non sunt sacramenta Christi Ecclesiae c. that is they are not therefore not the Sacraments of Christ and the Church because heretikes and wicked men do vnlawfully vse them They that is the heretikes c. are to be amended or punished but the Sacraments are to bee acknowledged and reuerently esteemed of c. Question How doe heretikes possesse baptisme Answere Baptismum legitimum habent sed non legitimè habent that is heretikes haue lawful baptisme but they haue it not lawfully Aug. de Bapt. cont Don. lib. 5. cap. 7. Neque licitè foris habetur tamē habetur sic illicitè for is datur sed tamen datur that is Baptisme is not had lawfully out of the Church notwithstanding it is had In like sort it is giuē out of the church vnlawfully notwithstanding it is giuen Aug. de Bap. contra Don. lib. 6. ca. 15. If any shall aske whether it be lawfull to offer our infants to baptisme out of the Church c. because all learned men except the Donatists c. in Augustines time and M. Penry and his worthie disciples in our time haue and doe affirme that true baptisme hath bene and may be out of the Church My answere is negatiue as Augustines was I referre the learned reader to his writings contra Cresc gram lib. 1. cap. 23. and de Bapt. contra Don. lib. 1. cap. 4. CHAP. 22. I. Penry THAT NO POPISH Priest is a Minister EVerie Minister must bee at the least by profession a member of the true Church No Popish Priest is by profession a member of the true Church Therefore no Popish Priest is a minister Euery minister hath an office within the body of the Church No popish priest hath an office within the body of the Church Therfore no popish priest is a minister The propositions or first part of both these reasons are set down euidently and plainly by the wisdome of God in these words For as we haue many members in one body and all members haue not one office so we being many are one body in Christ and euery one anothers members seeing then that we haue gifts that are diuers c. The place sheweth cleerely that whosoeuer is not a member is not of the bodie if not of the bodie then no minister Againe whosoeuer is no member he hath no office in the bodie if no office no minister He that should obiect that in this place is ment a member of the bodie by election in the secrete counsell of God and not in the acknowledgement of the Church by profession would not deserue the answering Because it is vocation and not election that maketh such a member in the Church as may haue an office therein of which sort the Apostle speaketh in this place By vocation I meane that whereof the holy Ghost speaketh where it is sayde Many are called but fewe are chosen neither can any man denie him to be a member of the Church which by outward profession submitteth himselfe vnto true religion and such are the members whereof the Apostle speaketh namely such as are members in the iudgement of the Church Iudas was a member in the iudgement of the Church though not belonging to election A further proofe of the propositions you shall find 1. Cor. 12.26.28 Hee was no priest in the olde Testament that was not a Iewe by profession yea and of the line of Aaron too and shall he be accounted a minister among vs that is a strāger from the profession of the trueth and a professed Idolater Ishmael and Esau were circumcised and the sonnes of those fathers vnto whome the couenant was made Euen I will bee thy God and the God of thy seed They and their posterities fell from true religion well admit that the profanation of circumcision had still continued in their houses yet a man supplying
he was a papist euer professed the trueth My answere is that they did and doe erre in very many things but yet they did and doe professe some trueth and I doubt not but that many which liued and died in the time of popish darkenesse died Gods seruants If you thinke that a man being wide in many things is wide in all things then because you M. Penry haue deliuered manie blasphemous Anabaptisticall and other errours I might iustly conclude that you hold nothing soundly but I wil not offer you such measure If I did I should deale absurdly with you Howe professed papists are Idolaters appeareth in my second proposition which is newly added to my former treatise Thither I referre you I. Penry Antichrist I grant should sit as God in the temple of God but it was neuer the temple of God since he planted his pestilent chaire therein Poperie in deed hath inuaded the seates and possessions of true religion and began first where the trueth was professed For the mysterie of iniquitie first appeared within the Church and not else-where where true religion flourished and not among the heathen neither could he bee that aduersarie whose beginning shoulde bee in Paganisme But although Poperie tooke roote in the soyle where the true Churche was planted yet it so grewe there that it still continued to be the synagogue of Satan and could neuer as yet be the Church of God howsoeuer it hath ouergrowen the possession thereof And what though their fathers who now are Papists were within the couenant as professing true religion shall it therefore followe that their Idolatrous sonnes should be so too If they returne the Lord hath mercie in store for them I denie not But what is there in this poynt saide for the Papists which the Iewes cannot with farre more shewe of reason pretend for themselues The profaning of Baptisme among the Papistes can make them no more be within the Church then the continuance of the profanation of Circumcision among the Ishmaelites and Edomites could keepe them vnder the couenant And why should popish Baptisme any more tye the Lords couenant to an Idolatrous race then an Ishmaelitish or Edomitish cutting off of the foreskinne linke him to be the God of those adulterous generations Oh but the Lord himselfe hath said in Isaak shall thy seede be called and Iaacob haue I loued and hated Esau Why the same Lorde in respect of his reuealed will for with his secrete election men must not meddle hath sayd the professours of true religion do I loue but the Idolatrous papists my soule abhorreth It will be here demaunded whether I make no more account of popish baptisme then of an Edomitish circumcision I see no reason why I should For a circumcised Edomite being receiued to be a true worshipper at Ierusalem should as well content himselfe with that circumcision circumcision being not a thing inuented by man or done in respect of man but ordeyned by the Lord and done in regard of the couenant made vnto Abraham as we doe with popish baptisme which is not called in question And yet that which is spoken concerning the profession of the trueth by the forefathers is not altogether true in popery for there bee many large regions nowe professing poperie where not so much as the name of Christ was heard vntill they were become grossely popish So that their first step was out of paganisme vnto poperie And this is the estate of all those poore oppressed vassals the west Indians who now in great numbers professe Romish Idolatrie For at such time as the Spanyard inuading their land brought vpon them the most miserable slauerie of the body soule that are vpon any people vnder heauen they had not so much as hearde whether there was any Christ but were most heathnish and sencelesse Idolaters as may appeare by the popish hystoriographers themselues who wrote the stories of those tymes And therefore to omit whose posterities many of the nations within Europe are that haue refused the light of the Gospel though it were granted that the rest of the popish rable were within in the couenant yet these miserable heathen papists can be said to be vnder no couenant but that which is made vnto popery and paganisme I hope M. Some howsoeuer you may be perswaded that other popish shauelings can deliuer a sacrament yet that you will doubt whether any man could be assured to receyue those holy seales at the hands of the heathen massemongers remayning in Cuba Hyspaniola Mexico or any other the Easterne parts And thus much concerning the assumption I am not ignorant that famous and worthie men haue otherwise written concerning the popish Church and therefore I am not to be pressed with their authoritie R. Some If your writings were as sounde as they are absurde they would giue many times great aduantage to the Papist Anabaptist c. If the popish church was neuer the temple of God since Antichrist planted his pestilent chaire there then in your iudgement the Pope is not Antichrist for Antichrist doth and must sit in the Temple of God that is in the Church of God I haue handled this argument before I rest in that I haue written there You say that a circumcised Edomite being receiued into the Church of Ierusalem should content himselfe with his circumcision in Idumea because circumcision was the Lords ordinance c. I agree with you in this If the Edomitish circumcision was the Lords ordinance then it was a seale of Gods couenant to the Idumeans and consequently the Edomites in your iudgement were not Aliens from Gods couenant for the seale of the couenant doth import and presuppose a couenant Besides if the Edomitish circumcision was true circumcision and the Edomitish Church no Church then a Sacrament was out of the Church c. How like you this M. Penry You knowe my meaning You adde that you call not popish baptisme in question Here I grant you doe not but a little after you vse these wordes viz. where there is no true Christ wherunto men can be engraffed by baptisme there true baptisme as touching the substance cannot be gotten c. But in popery there is no true Christ c. mendacem oportet esse memorē Your memory is very short You would neuer I thinke haue vēted such motley stuffe as this if you had thought it would haue bin looked on I can assure you that besides me whom you haue put to a litle paines your treatise hath beene viewed and reuiewed by very many learned men who condemne it for a foolish and fantasticall bable If the west Indians after profession of their beliefe in the holy trinitie were baptized as you say by popish shauelings I assure my selfe that they receiued true baptisme were therfore engraffed into Christ We in the Church of England neede not saile thanks be to God to the massemōgers in Cuba Hispaniola Mexico or any other part of the Indians we haue Gods holy
substaunce of baptisme out of the Church and that by those that are without the Church for then a sacrament might be had out of the Church which were very impious and absurd to be affirmed But popery is out of the Church and so are all popish priests Therfore no man can assure himselfe to haue the substance of baptisme in poperie by any popish priest R. Some Before that I deny any part of your reason I must tell you that I haue proued alreadie that true baptisme hath bene and may be out of the Church Ciprian thought otherwise and therefore would haue such as were baptized by excōmunicated hereticks to be rebaptized But he was and is condemned for that errour by ancient later writers You giue out very peremptorily that it is very impious and absurde to affirme that baptisme either hath bene or may be out of the Church So did the Donatists in Augustines time It is no great matter what you say Your bolt is soone shot Your water is very shallow Many points vvhich you condemne in your Consistorie for grosse absurdities are manifest trueths in the sound iudgement of all reformed Churches So is this present particuler Touching your argument I denie your Minor My reason is the Popish church is a church though an vnsound Church and Popish priestes haue a calling though a faultie one For proofe of this I referre you to that vvhich I haue vvritten before in this Treatise If you like not my reasons confute them I. Penry That there is no Church at all in poperie and that all popish priests are out of the Church besides the former reasons this one doth further shew If there be a Church in poperie or if all popish priests bee not out of the Church then those magistrates that haue separated themselues and their subiects and all others that made this separation from the Romish religion as from that synagogue where saluation is not to be had and consequently where there is no Church are schismatikes to speake the least Because it is a schisme to make this separation from the Church detest the corruptions thereof we may but make such a separation from the Church we ought not vnlesse we would be accounted schismatiks But those Magistrates and their people that made this separation are not schismatickes because in Poperie the foundation is ouerthrowen You say in your booke M. Some page 33. that you could presse the Argument of the Magistracie against me very farre Whether you may or no that shal be cōsidered when I deale with the point but this I am assured of that in this point you shall be driuen either to defend the absurditie that baptisme is to be had out of the Church in a companie estranged from Christ which I thinke you will not do or vrged so farre as to the plaine breach of a Statute which farre be it from me euen in the cause of treason Will ye say that baptisme may be had out of the Church the assertion is absurd Or will you hold that there is a Church in Poperie the assertion is dangerous and I haue prooued it false It is dangerous because it affirmeth our Magistrates to be schismatiks inasmuch as they haue separated themselues from the Church I hope rather then you will fall into either of these points that you will graunt me the cause R. Some I will answere your seuerall pointes very briefly The reason which you vse to prooue there is no Church at all in popery is this viz. If there bee a Church at al in popery the Magistrates and people which are of the religion are schismaticks at the least My answere is that this is a popish argument I haue answered it before and doe rest in that answere If either you or any of the popish sort mislike my answere you may confute it Besides if there be no Church at all in popery as you affirme why should the Churches of England Germany Dēmarke which were sometimes popish be called reformed Churches The very name of reformed Churches doth manifestly import that the Churches of England Germanie Denmarke c. though popish and vnsound were Churches in some sort before the reformation If you thinke that all the popish sorte which died in the popish Church ore damned you thinke absurdly for you dissent from the iudgement of all the learned protestants and doe presume to sit in Gods chaire which is intollerable sawcinesse To say or write that true baptisme hath beene and may bee out of the Church is a true proposition in diuinitie Augustine did maintaine it against the Donatists The most famous mē Churches in our time are of that iudgement I rest in that with all my heart You account it an absurde proposition The best is you are not master of the sentences as Peter Lumbard was If you were which God defend the sounde diuinity which is taught in Cambridge and Oxford should bee cryed downe and your strange fancies should be ruled cases The argument of the magistracy is touched before I perceiue it hath mooued you a litle for you drawe out a statute of Treasō c. What I beseech you good Sir No lesse then Treason you are a charitable man I haue do and will perfourme all dutie by Gods grace to the religion and my gracious Prince so long as I liue therefore treason statutes can take no hold of mee Yea the refutation of your blasphemous Anabaptisticall popish and proude errours by me is I am sure a performance of a speciall duetie to Almightie God my Prince and this Church And I doubt not but that blessing which God hath giuen already to my last treatise and which his Maiestie will giue to this will marre your market Great wordes shal not fray me c. If your ignorāt disciples wil stil magnifie you it shal not be strāge to me they do but their kind Such as bee learned wise haue do find you out Cognoscitur quis sit vt vt laudetur Coruus The most famous orators that euer were in Rome and Athens could not make the rauen to be no rauen Tertullus commended Felix Act. 24. but Felix was an absurde body and stripped of his office by Claudius Caesar The Samaritans commended Simon Magus Act. 8 Libanius the Sophister commended Iulian the Apostate Socr. lib. 3. cap. 22. Eunomius cōmended Aetius which was a pestilent heretike Theodor. lib. 2. cap. 29. You haue protested many times in your treatise that you reuerence me but here you offer me this choise either to defende that which is in your iudgemēt an absurditie but in deede is none or to incurre the danger of treason c. Doe you thinke that I haue any the least cause to beleeue your glorious protestations Ioab pretended extraordinarie good will to Abner and Amasa but he killed them 2. Sam. 3. and 20. chap. Ismael pretended extraordinarie good wil to them of Sichem Silo Samaria the beast shedde teares but they were Crocodiles teares for
popery a Church a Ministery a true Christ into whom very many haue bene and are engraffed by Baptisme it is a sure consequent first that you haue keptstrāge coyles in comptrolling all the Churches of God and in setting downe arguments as cleare as midnight Secondly that your conclusion viz. that there is in popery no Church no ministery no Christ is nothing else but an Anabaptisticall flourish which will melt as waxe before the fire and vanish as smoke before the wind CHAP. 24. R. Some BEfore that I set downe M. Penries proposition reasons touching vnpreaching Ministers I must tell the godly reader first that my iudgement is that Almighty God neuer called any to the holy ministerie either in the old or new Testament but he gaue them gifts fit for that holy function Secondly that by vnpreaching Ministers I vnderstand such as haue gifts in no measure for the discharge of that holy function Such are M. Penries ignorant Leuiticall priests whom he warranteth notwithstanding their extreeme ignorance to be lawfull priests though not good priests Such are some in our dayes which are fitter for the belfray then for the bodie of the Church That such as these are and they which admitted them sinned grossely I make no question That such ignorant men ought to bee thrust out of the holy ministerie and sent to some occupation is a cleare and ruled case in Gods booke I haue handled this argument before I rest in that which I haue written there I. Penry That vnpreaching ministers are no ministers They are affirmed to bee no Ministers not because they are euill ministers but because their Ministerie is an euil and profane ministerie So that in this point the fault is not found with the euill minister but with the euill ministerie Their ministerie is prophane and euill because there is no mention made of it in the worde And a ministery not mentioned in the worde is no ministery but a prophane constitution For the Lord hath expresly set downe euery ministery of the newe Testament that should be in the Church vnto the worlds ende Whereas he hath not once mentioned the Ministerie of our Readers because it is not a preaching Ministery The summe of this whole controuersie is conteined in these three axiomes 1 Euery ministery is expresly set downe in the word 2 Euery ministery of the newe Testament is a preaching ministery 3 The ministery of our vnpreaching ministers is not a preaching Ministery If you can shewe either of these 3. points to be false I am ouerthrowen if neither you must yeelde The trueth of all three I haue shewed out of the Worde in the last edition of my booke The two former are confirmed by the places quoted on the margent R. Some My answere shall be so briefe as may be Wherein I dissent I will giue my reasons If the ministerie as you say of vnpreaching ministers be an euil and profane ministerie it is a good consequent that vnpreaching ministers are euill and profane ministers The argument foloweth à coniugatis To proceede you write that the ministerie of ignorant ministers is not mentioned in the word therefore it is no ministerie in your iudgement but a profane constitution I am sure you thinke this argument to be a sure one but you are fowly deceyued I deny your antecedent My reason is By Ministerie in your antecedent I vnderstand the reading of the holy Scriptures the deliuering of the publikee prayers the administration of the Sacraments all which are the cōstitution of Almightie God therefore no profane constitution as you verie profanely doe imagine He that misliketh the reading of the holy Scriptures is a Zwing fildian heretike He that misliketh the administration of the Sacraments is a Messalian heretike He that mislyketh the inuocation of our gracious God is a filthie Atheist that is of no religion If you tell me that you thinke excellently of the administration of the Sacraments publique prayers c. But that your meaning is that it is not Gods pleasure that ignorant men shoulde administer such precious iewels I assent vnto you but I must adde this that as you and I doe mislike the entrance of vnfit men into and the continuance of them in the holy ministerie so neither of vs can iustly mislike their ministerie that is the reading of the holy Scriptures c. Nowe I come to your propositions which you call Axiomes The first is this viz. Euery ministerie is expressely set downe in the worde I graunt that the substance of euery ministerie is expresly set downe in the holy word By Ministerie I vnderstand not onely the ministerie of the word Sacraments as you doe in this place but that ministerie which concerneth the reliefe of the poore and the ciuill gouernement For the Magistrate is the minister of God Rom. 13. If Magistracie is Gods ministerie and the substance of it expressely set downe in Gods booke it is a good consequent that Magistracie is not a deuice of man but an ecclesiasticall constitution prescribed in the worde Your second Axiome is this viz. Euerie ministerie of the newe Testament is a preaching ministerie If you meane as I thinke you doe euery ministerie of the worde in the new Testament I dissent not from you Nowe sir to come a litle neerer you I must tell you that which either you knowe not or dissemble viz. that the lawes of this lande doe barre ignorant men from entring into the holy ministerie they are flat against it I offer you a branch of an Act of Parliamēt to be considered of The wordes of the Act are these viz. That none shall be made minister or admitted to preach or minister the Sacraments being vnder the age of 24. yeeres nor vnlesse he first bring to the Bishop of that Diocesse from men knowen to the Bishop to be of sound religion a testimoniall both of his honest life and of his professing the doctrine expressed in the said Articles nor vnlesse he bee able to answere and render to the Ordinarie an accompt of his faith in Latine according to the said Articles or haue speciall gift and habilitie to bee a preacher nor shall bee admitted to the order of Deacon or ministerie vnlesse he shall first subscribe to the said Articles Anno. 13. Reg. Elizab. cap. 12. You see by this that the lawe of the lande requireth in him which is to be admitted to the holy ministerie soundnesse in religion gifts in some measure and honestie of life They must to together Learning without godlinesse is as a gold ring vpon a swines snoute Godlinesse in a minister without learning is as a faire colour without light to shew it by and as a goodly bell without a clapper Your third Axoime is this viz. The ministerie of our vnpreaching ministers is not a preaching ministerie No man doubteth of this vnlesse he bee voyde of common sense Thus you haue my resolution briefly for these poynts and yet you are no conquerour as Caesar was nor I
ouerthrowen as Pompey was If your arguments were as tidie as your speeches are confident there were no dealing with you I perceiue the greatest barkers are not the sorest biters Answere me I pray you directly to these questions Doe you thinke because our vnpreaching ministers are not preaching ministers that no sacraments either were or are administred by them Before you denie it not If you should neither sacrifices nor sacraments were offered or administred by your ignorāt Leuitical priests for they were vnpreaching ministers Do you thinke that al such are polluted which receiue a Sacrament at the handes of vnpreaching ministers If you doe then was Saint Paul polluted which communicated with your ignorant Leuites for they were vnpreaching ministers Thus you see to what streights you are driuen CHAP. 25. I. Penry THE MINISTERIE OF OVR vnpreaching ministers is not a preaching ministerie IF the ministerie of vnpreaching ministers be a preaching ministerie or if their function be a pastorall or doctoral function then there had bene a preaching ministery a pastorall and doctorall function knowen in the Church though there neuer had bene any preacher therein Otherwise howe can their ministery be a preaching ministery or their function be a pastorall function whereas the same may be in the Church no preaching ministery or pastorall function being knowen there But no Church much lesse a ministery had there bene knowen if there neuer had bene any that could haue preached Because God ordeined the Saints and so a Church onely to be gathered together by preaching ordinarily but not by the ministery of readers because it might haue bene in the worlde yet no saint gathered thereby which thing experience in our Church prooueth to be too true R. Some You would thinke him strangely occupied that should set downe argumēts to proue that midnight is not high noone Your labour is such in this particular and you sweate moyle in it very busily The gaine you are like to reape is your labour for your trauaile You write that if no preaching had bene no Church had bene If you meane that no Church had ordinarily bene without preaching that is that preaching is the ordinarie means for the beginning and growth of the Church I assent vnto you but I adde this that it hath and doeth please God by the reading of the holy Scriptures and the working of his Spirit to renue the hearts of many If you shall answere that this course is not so ordinarie as the other I will accept your answere and withall confesse that in this point no difference is betweene vs. I. Penry My 2. and 3. reasons are drawen out of these wordes of Paul Rom. 12.6 7.8 Seeing then that we haue giftes that are diuers according to the grace that is giuen vnto vs whether we haue prophecie let vs prophecie according to the proportion of faith or an office let vs waite on the office or he that teacheth on teaching or he that exhorteth on exhorting c. The 2. reason is thus concluded Whosoeuer hath receiued a ministery and so a pastorall or doctorall function hee hath receiued prophecie spoken of in this place verse 6. Because euery pastoral or doctorall function mentioned in the 7. and 8. verse vnder these words he that teacheth hee that exhorteth are conteined vnder the word prophecie vers 6. Insomuch as he that hath not receiued that prophecie there set downe wherby is ment the interpretation of the word he hath not receiued the pastorall or doctoral function set downe vers 7.8 But vnpreaching ministers haue not receiued the prophecie spoken of in this place which is expresly set downe verse 6. to be one of the diuers gifts bestowed for the gouernment of the body which is the Church Therefore also they haue receiued neither a pastoral nor a doctorall function and so no preaching ministery R. Some Your drifte is as before to proue that our ignorant ministers are vnfurnished therefore no preachers You say true Will you conclude of this that they haue no ministerie at all that the actions of their ministery viz. the administration of the sacraments the reading of the holy scriptures c. are not profitable in any sort to the godly assēbly If you dispute thus I deny your argument and do giue this reason An absurde Magistrate is not furnished by almightie God and therefore vtterly vnfit to be Gods lieutenant but we may not inferre of this that the actes done by him in his magistracie are not the actes of a Magistrate If you tell me that the arguments for vnfit magistrates ministers are of seuerall stamps I graunt you say so So did when time was an other grosse Anabaptist but all learned men agree with me and dissent from you I. Penry 3 No ministery is separated from a gift because prophecie spoken of in this 6. verse vnder which as we see euery pastorall and doctorall ministery is conteined cannot bee seuered from a gift but the ministery of our readers is seuered in them from a gift therefore in them it is no ministery It is no ministery in them I say although that ministery the generall name whereof they haue is not seuered from a gift in preaching ministers But what is that to them what is the ministery of other men vnto them they are not ministers by the ministery wherewith other men are endued but by their owne which being seuered from a gift is no ministery Paul had bin no Apostle had receiued no Apostleship vnlesse he could haue sayd I am a minister according vnto the grace giuen vnto mee Ephe. 3.7 and not according to the grace giuen vnto other Apostles the generall name of whose Apostleship I am entituled with A ridiculous speache it were to say mine apostleship hath receiued grace but I that am the apostle haue receiued none Howe then may our readers claime a preaching ministery vnto themselues seeing the ministery which they challenge is altogether in them without a gift though it be not so in others R. Some I graunt that no lawfull and good Minister of God wants furniture of gifts If you will conclude of this that the approbation of the Church is nothing if sufficiēt parts be wanting in them which are admitted to the ministerie I denie your argument and doe offer you for my reason a floure of your owne garden euen that which you haue written before in these wordes viz. that vnfitnesse to teach made not a nullitie of the Leuitical priests office If you answere that extreeme ignorance in the Leuiticall priestes did neither barre them from nor strippe them of the Leuiticall priesthood I replie that this is a positiue and perpetual law of almightie God for the priestes then for the Ministers now viz. The priests lips shall keepe knowledge Mal. 2. yea M. Caluine a famous learned man writeth vpon that place of Malachie that Sacerdos doctor sunt termini conuertibiles that is that Gods priest a teacher are so neere of
be receiued at his handes which wanteth outward calling therefore not at his hands who is destitute of the inward graces R. Some Your Antecedent is true and maketh against the Anabaptists I deny your argument My reason is Omnia Sacramenta cum obsint indignè tractantibus prosunt tamen per eos dignè sumentibus Aug. contra epist Parmen lib. 2. ca 10. that is all Sacraments though they hurt such as doe handle them vnworthily yet they profit such as doe worthily receiue them at their handes I. Penry My reason concluding the vnlawfulnesse of communicating with readers hauing but an outward calling because it is a sinne to communicate with them which only want the same hauing fitnesse to teach is such as I cannot but maruaile that you would thinke it could be answered by a desiting of the question which is a fault in reasoning wherein belike you seeme to take delight You say againe that readers deliuer a Sacrament How can we be sure thereof and why may not I say as well that a man indued with gifts to teach doth deliuer a Sacrament though he haue no outward calling which assertion would be false R. Some You are the strangest answerer that euer I met with I must be content answere you If they sinne which receiue the Sacraments of him which hath an outward calling and wants the inward then many godly Israelites were polluted which receiued the Sacraments of the ignorant Leuiticall priestes which had an outward but not the inward calling You denie the latter therefore you cannot affirme the former vnlesse you be voyde of common sense Petitio principij begging of the question is a speciall pearle in your booke You charge me to delight in it I vse it not there is neither pleasure nor profit in it You are a priuiledged man you may say what you list The best is I can receiue no disgrace by any speeches of such as you are I. Penry We haue no warrant to reeiue an extraordinarie Sacrament But that which is administred by ignorant ministers is an extraordinary Sacrament if it be any Therefore we haue no warrant to receiue it R. Some I deny your Minor and doe adde this first that it is a Sacrament by your own confession pag. 50.51 which is administred by ignorant ministers Secondly that it is no extraordinarie Sacrament which is deliuered by them vnlesse you will call Baptisme and the holy Supper extraordinarie Sacraments I. Penry By an extraordinary Sacrament I meane Baptisme or the Lords Supper administred eyther priuately by a minister or any way by one that is no minister I neuer affirmed the Elements deliuered by readers to bee Sacraments It is one thing not to deny them an other thing to affirme them to be Sacraments The former I haue written the latter I neuer did and they doe my writings great iniurie that report the contrary R. Some In the shutting vp of your Treatise you haue broched two errours the one is that it is an extraordinarie Sacrâ—â—ent which is deliuered any way by one that is no minister Of this I gather that you holde that one which is no minister may deliuer a Sacrament for an extraordinarie Sacrament is a SacrameÌ„t If I would enter into your vaine I might set downe these consequents viz. that bargemen children women Idiots c. in your iudgement may administer an extraordinary Sacrament Your other errour is that the holy Supper c. is an extraordinary Sacrament when it is deliuered priuately by a minister I am not of your iudgement in this I am of M. Caluines therefore I set downe this proposition viz. that it is lawfull to administer the holy Supper in a particuler house if some cautions and circumstances be obserued The reasons do appeare a litle after It pleaseth you to say that as you neuer denied so you neuer affirmed it to be a Sacrament which is deliuered by an vnpreaching minister A worthy resolution If you denie not that it is a Sacrament c. you doe affirme it For not to deny is to affirme Euery child can teach you that lesson I doe lesse meruaile that you are so short and wide in excellent pointes of diuinitie when you faile in a common point of Grammer Thus I see how complete a man you are R. Some If any will conclude of these my answeres that I mislike M. Penries desire of a learned ministerie in Wales hee takes vp that which I neuer let fall for I desire with al my heart and the Lord for his Christs sake grant it that not onely Wales may be furnished with worthy gouernours and pastours but all other parts of her Maiesties Dominions that Gods graces may be more and more multiplied vpon vs and our posteritie and his holy hand watch ouer vs. M. Penry sayeth nothing to this CHAP. 15. R. Some IT IS LAWFVL TO ADMInister the holy Supper in a priuate house if some cautions be obserued The cautions which must be obserued are Calu. Epist 363. 1. That there be a conuenient nomber to communicate with the sicke partie 2. That the holy Supper bee deliuered according to Christes Institution 3. That the explication of the mysterie bee ioyned with the action M. Caluines reasons Epist. 363. IT is forcible for the confirmation of faith to receiue a pledge as it were of Christes hand whereby wee may bee more assured that wee are of his body and that we are fed with Christes flesh and blood vnto hope of eternall life The receiuing of the holy Supper doeth arme vs in our spirituall batraile therefore the godly sicke man is not to be barred of that singuler comfort An eripiendum est singulare adiumeÌ„tum quo fretus ad luctam alacriùs descendat victoriam obtineat The holy Supper is a signe of holy vnitie amongst Gods children therefore the godly sicke man whether hee haue a languishing sicknes or be at deathes doore is not to be barred from professing his vnitie and consent with Gods Church Coena sanctaeinter filios Dei vnitatis est Symbolum If any shall reply that the holy Supper is not a priuate action of any housholde but meere Ecclesiasticall 1. Cor. 11. M. Caluines answere is that the holy Supper deliuered to a godly sicke man is part of the publique action Partem vel appendicem esse constat publicae actionis M. Caluine addeth these words Neque verò Paulus dum Corinthios admonet domum cuique suam esse in qua comedat bibat Coenam excludit à priuatis aedibus Tunc neque fidelibus patebant templa neque vnquam permissum esset noua extruere Sed tantùm à communibus epulis discernit spirituale mysterium ne cum illis misceatur That is Paul when he doeth admonish the Corinthians that they haue priuate houses to eate and drinke in doeth not shut the holy Supper from priuate houses For then the faithful neither had vse of any Churches nor were suffred to build new Only he distinguisheth the spirituall
mysterie frō common banquets lest it should be mingled with them The same M. Caluine a litle after hath these words Coeterum diligenter cauendum esse fateor ne qua obrepat superstitio ne spes salutis externo Symbolo affigatur c. That is diligent care must be had that no superstition creepe in and that no hope of saluation be tied to the externall signe c. Epist. 363. Of this iudgement is Peter Martyr in his Commentarie vpon the 10. chap. ad Cor. Fol. 143. Chemnicius writeth that it is an absurde thing to tie the holy Supper to peculiar places Ad substantiam Sacramenti sicut non pertinet circumstantia temporis ita nec circumstantia loci tanquā necessaria requiritur Chemn in 2. parte exam con Trid. That is as the circumstance of the time is not necessarily required to the substance of a Sacrament so neither the circumstance of place I rest in the iudgement of these excellent men If you dissent from mee I pray you condemne these learned writers but not before you haue confuted their reasons CHAP. 16. I. Penry THus M. Some I haue runne therowe those pointes in your booke that concerned me I haue bene driuen to deale brieflyer therin then I had determined But I am enforced to ende to omit that which page 9. I promised to handle in the latter ende with diuers other things I haue not the like libertie for Printing that you M. Some doe enioy Procure me but the fauour to be iudicially heard according to the word and I will personally vpon the perill of my life by the Lords assistance defend these two points against all gainesayers I am sory that you whom I reuerence should be the instrument to oppugne a trueth The Lorde respect the cause of his owne glory and pardon our sinne Amen R. Some You haue runne your selfe out of breath You had dealt more wisely if you had gone with lesse haste and better speede Sat citò si sat bene The breuitie which you giue out you are driuen to is dignum patella operculum a fit garment to couer your absurde writings You haue not you say such libertie of printing as I. No reason you should You broche and print grosse errours and Anabaptistical fancies so do not I. You refuse to offer submit your writings to the view and allowance of the Magistrates so do not I. You would haue me procure you Iudicial hearing c. Your request is not equall Nec te noui nec vbi sis Speake for your selfe in Gods Name so will I if you will reuoke your errours and heresies Otherwise I will not open my lippe for you or any such as you are After leaue obteined you will appeare you say though it cost you your life and deale in Argument c. Oh noble Goliath Doe you challenge all gainesayers so did the Donatists in Augustines time Aug. contra Don. post Coll. so did Photinus a grosse heretike in Basils time Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 6. so did Popish Campian in our time Alas good M. Penry you are vtterly vnfit for such a match This heate of yours is like a blaze of thornes It will last but a while Your cause is naught your armour is not of proofe Your Diuinitie is at a low ebbe Your Arguments are pitifull your answeres are silly There is no hope of preuailing The Donatists Photinus and Campian presumed of a glorious victorie but they were learnedly confuted The Donatists by Augustine Photinus by Basill of Ancyra Campian by some of our learned men Besides their garland was poena perfidiae non corona fidei I would be sory your garland shoulde be of such floures The best conquest that you can haue is to ouercome your pride by humilitie and your ignorance by godly studie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Eurip. in Hippol. Excellēt men haue their second thoughts wiser then their first Non vincimur quum meliora nobis offerūtur sed instruimur Cipr. ad Qu. fratrem It is no disgrace to yeeld to better things You are sory that I whom you reuerence should be an instrument to oppugne a trueth Be sory for your selfe Detest your fancies Your reuerēce I make very meane accompt of You are the first that euer charged me in writing to oppugne Gods trueth I am very farre I thanke God from that great sinne Gods trueth I trust is as deare to me as to you I hope it hath had and shall haue more defence by me then by you there is some reason it should You misliked my last Treatise if this booke finde the like grace at your hands I must and will beare it To your prayer that the Lord would respect the cause of his owne glory and pardon our sinnes I say withall my heart Amen I haue now thanks be to God passed thorow your booke I haue not runne but walked a foote pace thorowe it Your absurdities I confesse are brambles but they haue not pricked me I would some others tooke no more hurt by them If my Treatise shall doe either you or any of your followers good I will be glad If not I say with the holy Apostle If any man be ignorant let him be ignorant 1. Cor. 14.38 Non habet Dei charitatem qui Ecclesiae non diligit vnitatem Aug. de baptis contra Don. lib. 3. cap. 16. CHAP. 17. IT hath pleased M. Penry to take some paines in prouing that Popish Priestes are no lawfull and good ministers of God that is that they haue no lawfull calling In this hee fighteth with his shadow for he hath not any of the religion his aduersarie I mislike the Popish priesthoode and sacrifice as much as he and if occasion require vvill set dovvne sure reasons to shake them both in pieces That vvhich I holde in this controuersie is that Popish priestes haue a calling though a faultie one If M. Penry wil improue that he must take penne in hand and begin a fresh for as yet he hath not encountred with that particuler If he can preuaile in that the famous writings of Caluine Beza c. and the resolution of all the reformed Churches in which I rest for this point shal be condemned and M. Penry shall haue the garland Because I purpose to passe so briefly as I can thorow his Treatise of the Popish priests I will handle first certaine propositions which are incident to that discourse The Popish Church is a Church though not a sound Church 1. The Pope is Antichrist therefore the Church of Rome is a Church No Protestant doubteth of the antecedent c. I proue my argument thus Antichrist shall sit in the Temple of God 2. Thess 2.4 Per Templum Dei Ecclesia per sessionem regnum intelligitur Musc 2. Thess 2.4 that is by the Temple of God the Church by sitting a kingdome is vnderstanded Viretus a man of excellent learning writeth thus of the popish Church Non dum eò vsque degenerauit prolapsa est