it of necessitie seeing men are excommunicate and deposed for not obseruing it or as some verie ignorantlie vse to say if it be a thing indifferent why is it not left indifferent for men to vse or not to vse I answere that which is a thing indifferent God commaundeth it shall be done when it is conuenient and for edification and therefore when the Church doth appoynt or ordeine it rightly he that breaketh it wilfullie breaketh the commandement of God And so on the other side when it falleth out not to be conuenient and the Church dooth alter it hee that will now obserue it with a resisting minde doth like wise offend against the rule of Gods word I neuer doubted but that by neâ—essary consequence it is to be drawen from the doctrine of the scriptures that prayer is to be made before and after the word preached but I speake of a commaundement in expresse wordes therefore the places are cited here by the Brownist to no purpose And all the rest of his words that follow are either in matters wherin we agree or such as he collectetth from his owne ignorance and which are answered before The next argument is Read prayers were deuised by Antichrist and maintaine superstition and Idole ministerie c. Here the Brownist if he would at all speak to the purpose shoulde prooue that the very reading a prayer when one prayeth is the deuise of Antichrist maintaineth superstitioÌ„ an Idole ministrie But he flieth dealeth about the matter of leiturgies saying he hath heard the Pope woulde haue approoued ours if it might be receiued in his name If master Greenwoods newes from Rome were true which hee heard the matter were not great for the Pope will approoue the Lords prayer the commaundements and articles of the faith but he wil expound them as it pleaseth him The Pope also to wind in himself wil approoue in shew many things which he misliketh so they be not directly against his crowne and dignitie And it is to be considered that the controuersies betweene vs and the Papists are not about the matters which we are to begge in prayer There is no likelyhood that the Pope made such offer because he knoweth we holde in the substance and grounds of the faith that which quite ouerthroweth him but if he did men may see by these things which I haue noted that master Greenwood doth but shift and trifle He confesseth leiturgies were before Antichrist and yet saith he was the deuiser See the grauitie of this man he is sore afraide that hee should here againe be said to condemne all Churches because they haue read prayer and therfore he saith his arguments are falsely wrested Answere your selfe then and tell vs what ye holde them which receiue the deuise of Antichrist Why crie yee not out of the marke of the beast It is a pitifull thing to see in what a case the Brownist is For he wil not coÌ„demne the Churches and yet after he hath set foorth what leiturgie is and affirmed that the new Testament is Christs leiturgie he alleageth that they be accursed that adde thereto and holdeth prescript forme of prayer an adding Let him now be asked is the curse layd vpon the true Churches he will say no. Then prescript forme is either no adding to Christs Testament or else they be vnder the curse that vse it He saith leiturgies are another gospel Then all Churches haue receiued another gosepl The wordes that follow haue bin answered before Where I sayd there would sundrie inconueniences growe for want of prescript forme of publike prayer After he hath set downe that Christ is a perfect law giuer and that the word of God is sufficient he tearmeth it blasphemie to say there would be inconueniences without leiturgies then all the Churches committe blasphemie whether doe ye yet condemne them or not This is from his grosenes which doth not se that Christs Testament is perfect and yet there are things commaunded in generall rules which are variable as I haue before shewed for circumstances of time place persons sitting kneeling c. He saith there can be no particular lawes made without breaking the lawe of God as though the Church were not to see what in these is fit and conuenient vpon euerie occasion and time and for that time to establish the same But euerie man to doe as he shall like or shal take the generall rule of order and decencie for men will not agree this is from rules of order to drawe confusion Now this great deuine saith I haue made a faire hande in affirming leiturgies to be but a matter of order or conueniencie for edification Seeing as hee saith it is all the worship we haue this commeth from him that hath the beautie of Sion as he boasteth which the inchaunters of Egipt cannot iudge of This commeth from him that with his fellowes hath the cloude betweene them and vs and the pillar of fire before them as he speaketh in the next wordes Because I say the prescript forme and the reading are but for order he concludeth that I confesse the prayer is but a matter of order or conueniencie ye say I haue made a faire hand But I tell ye master Greenwood if ye should goe into the Schooles and reason so in earnest the young boyes would be readie to hisse ye foorth as a non proficiens and howe faire hand should you make then they will not beleeue ye haue it from your pillar of fire but out of that dark cloud of your ignorance which is betweene your selfe and the light of the trueth Now wheras I said y e Church hath power to ordain according to the word of God to appoint such orders in matters of circumstance about publike prayer preaching of the worde and administring of the Sacraments as shall most fitly serue for edification and then these orders being established by publike authoritie the discipline and censures of the Church are to driue men to the obseruation of the same that stubbornely break them Here the poore Brownist layeth open himselfe againe to be as blinde as a beetle he will needes haue it to be papisticall mudde and that I am in an Apostacie Because there can as he saith no other lawes be made in matters of circumstance than Christ himselfe hath made that to ordaine lawes in the Church is to plead for vnwritten verities and to make the law of God vnsufficieÌ„t It is an adding to the word of God which is execrable pride All the Popes trinkets might bee brought in by the same ground This is the foundation of Poperie and Anabaptistrie to giue libertie to make lawes in the worship of God And by your iudgement which would haue men driuen to obserue them our Sauiour Christ was an Anabaptisticall Schismatike that would not himselfe nor his disciples obey the traditions of the Elders Thus speaketh this Brownist But what beastlie ignorance doth he bewray and that in sundrie poynts and with what
A Plaine Declaration that our Brownists be full Donatists by comparing them together from point to point out of the writings of Augustine Also a replie to Master Greenwood touching read prayer wherein his grosse ignorance is detected which labouring to purge himselfe from former absurdities doth plunge himselfe deeper into the mire By George Gyffard Minister of Gods word in Maldon BY PEACE PLENTY BY WISDOME PEACE TO AT LONDON Printed for Toby Cooke dwelling at the Tygers head in Paules Churchyard 1590. TO THE RIGHT HOnorable Sir William Cecill Knight of the Garter Baron of Burghley Lord high Treasurer of England and Chauncellor of the Vniuersitie of Cambridge Grace and peace I Published a Booke Right Honourable against the Brownists who complaine of hard dealing and not onlie they but others in that I haue termed them Donatists and charge them with sundrie foule matters And hauing now receiued from them an answer vnto one part of that my booke I haue also framed this replie In which I first set downe from point to point out of the writings of the holie Father Augustine with what Scriptures and arguments it was defended and so compare our mens writings and doings with the same They must for this chuse either to affirme that the Donatists had the truth and the churches were perished or else shewe some materiall points of Donatisme which they doo not hold And then in the latter part of this my booke I answer to that which is published now by them against read prayer As I was bold to present the former vnto your Honor so do I also humblie offer this presuming vpon your Honors fauourable acceptation And thus I beseech the Lord God to blesse and prosper your Honor. Amen To the Reader GOod Christian reader I published a booke against the Brownists whom I haue in the same termed the Donatists of England How farre of I was from purposing anie such thing at the first and how I was drawne into it afterward I haue in that former booke truly reported And for warrant of my doing before the Lord I had no doubt but that it should bee an acceptable seruice to Christ notwithstanding when I respect the waightines and necessitie of the worke I haue alwaies wished and do wish that some man of greater learning might deale against thē Neither as yet am I cast into any thoughts of doubting by the mislike or fault finding of some in all places which are no Brownists But I am rather thrust forward by beholding that weakenes of iudgement and want of vnderstanding not in a feaw touching the foulnes of Donatisme and by the sight of such nerenes of multitudes vnto the danger which before I coulde not suspect Now touching the faultes which are found which causeth the mislike they are partelie for the matter it selfe and partlie for the manner of dealing both in it as also towards the persons themselues against whome I write In the matter some haue found fault as though I should stand to cleere to iustifie al things not onlie in the Booke of Common praier but also in the calling and ordination of our Ministers and in our Church gouernement others affirme that I haue diminished the faults which are esteemed to be in these and made them lighter at the least by not reproouing them The first sort I cannot but meruaile at seeing I haue in that my former booke set downe expressie in these words that the matter in question betweene the Brownists and me is not about the controuersie in our Church as whether there be imperfections corruptions and faults in our Worship Ministerie and Church gouernement nor how many great or smal but whether there be such heinous enormities as destroy the verie life and being of a true Church and make an vtter diuorse from Christ I doo then lay open the state of this question so plainelie as I know not how to make it more plaine now vnles I should run through euerie particular which wee deale in which I thought to be needlesse but now I will a little stand vpon it They reckon Romish fasts Ember dayes Saincts eues and Lent Idoll feasts as Alhallowes Candlemas seuerall Ladie daies Saincts daies dedicating Churches vnto Saints Comminations Rogations and Purifications Tithes Offerings Mortuaries howsling the sick with the Sacrament absolution and blasphemous dirges and funerall Sermons ouer and for the dead Corrupt manner of administring the Sacraments the Font the crosse in Baptisme Baptisme by women gossippings blasphemous and hereticall collects These and certaine other haue they set downe to bee in the Booke not vnder the termes of faults blemishes and corruptions but as heresies blasphemies and abominations and that such as ouerturne the foundation of the Christian faith destroy the substance of Gods worship and take away the life and beeing of a true Church To this I haue answered that they be foule slaunderours liars false accusers shewing that our Church hath renounced in those former things that which is blasphemous and hereticall or so abominable as that it approacheth neerest to the destroying of the faith and holy worship of the Lord. As namelie the remission of sinnes and merite of eternall life by fasting which is the doctrine of the Romish church The worship and inuocation of Saints and Angels the power of expelling Diuels by the signe of the crosse and such like things which the papacie is full of but reiected by vs. If the Brownists in their replie against that I haue written shall prooue by the word of God that there be great corruptiōs in our praiers in our fasts in our keeping the Saints dayes in the Crosse and in manie other things which bee in our Church as in our Ministerie and Church gouernemēt And further if their proofes be neuer so clere strong from the Scriptures yet they answere not me at al nor touch the question or controuersie between them and me vnles they can prooue them to be such faults as destroy the worship of God ouerturne the foundation of the faith and take away the verie life and being of true Christianitie If I say they do not prooue them according as they haue set thē downe to bee blasphemies heresies abominations yea the verie worship and yoake of Antichrist the marke of the beast and his power I remaine vnanswered and they stand conuicted as liars slanderers and most wicked false accusers not of particular persons but of whole Churches For I shewed in expresse wordes that I doo not meddle at all in these questions whether there bee corruptions and faults in our Church condemned by Gods word whether they bee manie or fewe whether they bee small or great but onelie thus farre whether they bee such or so great as make our Churches Antichristian Here therefore I doo intreate the Christian Reader to fixe his eyes in reading my writings and theirs onelie vppon this one question whether there be in our Church any errors or faults that be found amentall Looke if
hence that the Church of England is esteemed and reuerenced among the Churches as a sister and communicated withall and yet they all know what her faults be in her assemblies in her worship in her ministrie and gouernment in as much as they are open and apparant to them euen as to our selues Now that they iustifie her as a true Church we haue their own words for the harmonie of confessions of the Churches collected and set foorth by the Churches of France and of the Lowe Countries doth receiue and approoue the confession of the Church of England and call it one of the reformed Churches Whereupon I argue thus If the Church of England be Antichristian and idolatrous and worship the beast bow downe vnto him and receiue his marke because of the gouernment by Bishops then the Churches which doo perfectlie knowe the same and yet doo acknowledge her as a sister and communicate with her are partakers of her sinne and so to be condemned with her Therefore the Brownists condemning it condemne those that iustifie it knowing the estate The Brownists condemne all those as persecutors of the iust enemies of Christ and of his kingdome that shall hold them to be Heretickes and Schismatickes for condemning the Church of England and separating themselues I argue thus All the Churches which know the Church of England and her forme of gouernment and yet doo loue and reuerence her as a true Church of Christ condemne those as hereticall Schismatickes which call it Antichristian and separate themselues from it For how can the Churches as they doo esteeme the Church of England as a true sister and yet not condemne the Brownists as wicked Schismatickes which call it the Synagog of Sathan Then let the Brownists shewe that the Churches haue reuoked this their former iudgement of the Church of England or else let them answere whether they condemne not all those as no true Christians which shall affirme them to be wicked Schismatickes for separating themselues from the assemblies of England If they will deny that the churches esteeme our Churche as a sister and therefore condemne them as vngodlie Schismatickes the matter is so cléere that all men shal see them then to be impudent It may be some Brownist will replie that it cannot be extended vnto all Churches a farre off which is verified in some that be nigh Well let vs see then for the Churches a farre off Doo not the Brownists condemne the Church of Geneua They will say no. But I say they doo For as I sayd before will they not condemne all such as doo reiect them as wicked Schismatickes This doth the Church of Geneua Which I prooue thus In that the Church of Geneua doth approoue the doctrine of those that haue béen and are her most learned and godlie Pastors as Master Caluin with whom the rest consent in doctrine Now touching the doctrine of Master Caluin published whereby he condemneth the Brownists as Schismatickes ye may reade it in fourth booke of his Institutions and the first Chapter It is too large to recite the whole I will alleage but some parts Looke vppon the seuenth section where he saith that in the visible Church in earth there are verie many hypocrites mingled verie many that be ambicious couetous enuious cursed speakers some of more impure life which tollerated for a time either because they cannot in lawfull iudgemēt be conuinced or else because that seueritie of discipline which ought to be is not alwaies in force In the ninth section he affirmeth that the reason is somewhat diuers in esteeming priuate men and in esteeming the churches for it may come to passe as he saith that wee ought to handle them as brethren and accompt instead of beléeuers such as wee shall thinke vtterlie vnworthie the fellowship of the godlie euen for the cōmon consent of the church by which they are tollerated in the bodie of Christ Wee doo not approoue such by our voyce to be members of the Church but we leaue vnto them that place which they hold among the people of God vntill it be taken from them by lawfull iudgement Then he addeth but wee must thinke otherwise of the multitude which if it haue the Ministerie of the Word and giue honour if it haue the Administration of the Sacraments no doubt it deserueth to bee accounted a Church because it is certaine those things are not without fruite so wee both keepe for the Uniuersall Church her vnitie which diuelish Spirites haue alwaies endeuored to cutte in sunder neither doo wee defraude of their authoritie the lawfull assemblies which are seuered according to the fitnes of places In the tenth section hee vttereth that the Lord maketh so great account of the communion of his Church that he estéemeth him as a runnagate and forsaker of religion whosoeuer he be that frowardlie shall separate himselfe from any Christian societie which imbraseth but the true Ministrie of the word and Sacraments And a little after he inferreth vpon some ground of reason that the departure from the Church is the deniall of God and of Christ affirming moreouer that no crime can bée deuised more horrible than with sacrilegious trecherie to violate the mariage which the Sonne of God hath vouchsafed to contract with vs. In the twelft section hée dooth expounde what is his meaning when he requireth a pure Ministerie of the word and pure order of administring the Sacraments as notes infallible of the true Church For hee saieth there may somewhat that is faltie créepe in either in the administration of the word or of the Sacraments which ought not to separate vs from the Communion of that Ministrie Because there be principles of Religion without which we cannot be saued and there be points in which men dissent and the one part erreth and yet the vnitie of faith and brotherlie loue is kept not that we are to approue the least errour in doctrine or the sialest corruption in the administration of the Sacraments In the thirtéenth section he saith that in tolerating the imperfection of life wée ought to bée much more fauorable for here we are vpon slipperie ground where wée may easely fall And the euill dooth héere lie in waite and assalt vs with speciall engines for there haue been alwaies some which being caried with a false perswasion of an absolute perfection as if they were now become certaine ayrie spirites despised the fellowship of all men in whome they saw any thing that is humaine or corrupt remaining Such were of olde time the Cathari and the Donatists which fell into the same furie such are at this daye some of the Anabaptists which would seeme to haue profited more than others There be other some that offend rather of an inconsiderate zeale of righteousnes than of that mad pride for while they see the life is not answerable to the holie doctrine in bringing foorth good fruite among such as haue the Gospell preached they iudge by and by that
against all sin iudge repute them as christian brethren which it may be are not his fall is not great although he be ouer fauorable for through humility he is below Wheras on the other part such as condemne with vncharitable rigor they are lifted vp with swelling and so their fall is deeper This is my meaning in that I saide I had rather answer to God for mercy than for rigour now as I eschew it in my self so would I be loath seeing rigor aboundeth among many to giue any occasion to nourish the same by my writing If I sin in this yet I trust it is so as no godly charitable man wel aduised wil make an outcry against me for it if I shake hāds with sin let me be condēned for it otherwise I craue that I may follow the rule of the Apostle But now it wil be said by the third sort which finde fault with my book that I haue broken this rule towards the Brownists as also that rule of S. Paul who willeth to instruct with patience such as be contrary minded because I charg them not only with foule Schisme but also with heresies and for which I take it that obstinacie if it be found in thē wil make them heretickes They differ not frō vs say some in matters of faith but doo ouer shoot thēselues that on the right hand for answer vnto these first touching the rules of Paul I know he himself did practize thē And he that gaue these rules so far as wee are come let vs proceed by one rule c. and instructing with patience c. said also beware of dogs beware of euill workmen beware of the concision Philip. 3. Why did S. Paule this but mooued with the danger which the Churches were in by them Men haue not now the consideration what it is to condemne the whole worship the Ministrie as Antichristian and so vtterlie to take away the credite and power of the Ministrie and preaching Gods word Will they esteeme it to bee lesse than that which the false Apostles did Againe I see men are ignorant what the power of Donatisme was how it preuailed and spread not onelie among the common sort but had hundreths of preachers to publish and set it foorth Neither doo men knowe the foulenes of Donatisme nor the poynts of it and that maketh them offended that I terme the Brownists Donatists hold it as a schisme and heresie Cresconius the Donatist writing against Augustine doth reprehend him for calling them hereticks because they held the same doctrine as hee saith and if they offended it could bee but as in a schisme Augustine replieth that Schisma inueteratum est haeresis Inueterate schisme is heresie And sheweth that some thinges they helde were hereticall The Churches haue condemned it not only as a schisme but also as an heresie I haue out of large discourses of the controuersies betweene the Churches and the Donatists drawen foorth brieflie all the chiefe heads of Donatisme and how they did stand to maintaine them and with what scriptures I compare the Brownists and them together in all poynts generallie held and will stand to iustifie that they bee full Donatists euen in the rankest Donatisme If I haue not set down the Donatisme aright and if the Brownisme be not the same let me haue the shame for euer that I haue giuē them the title and can not iustifie that they are worthie of it Let the Brownists chuse which part they will either to affirme that the Donatists had the truth or else to cleere thēselues frō Donatisme I will ioyne with them or rather against them in either And in the meane time I do exhort al other to be sober minded and discreet and not to thrust the simpler sort headlong into it by exclaiming that they bee ouer hardlie dealt withall For what say some If these that are called Brownists bee godly men and but ouerseene in some matters we will chuse to ioyne with thē rather thā with the publike assemblies of our Church These men are they in compassion of whō I write Now the chiefe heads in which I compare them are these The Donatists did falselie accuse and condemne the Churches and al the Ministers to be vtterlie polluted and al their worship and separated themselues without all order of discipline So haue the Brownists done The Donatists tooke beginning by occasion of one man whom they held to be no Minister of Christ but after they made their defence that all were polluted and all the Ministers the generatiōs of Traitors Iudasses and persecutors of the iust that the Churches in the beginning after the times of persecution were not well ordered by separation of the faithfull from the wicked For because there were many both Ministers and people which in time of persecution to saue their liues had denied the faith sacrificed to Idols and deliuered the holie Scriptures to the persecutors and when Constantine gaue peace being become Christian returned and were not cast foorth Hereupon the Donatists said all were vtterlie polluted that because some such did ordaine Ministers at least as they reported they accused all the Ministers to bee the sons of traitors which ordained them and so were no ministers of Christ had no true praier nor Sacraments The Brownists affirme that all our assemblies which openlie committed Idolatrie were at the sound of a Trumpet at the coronation of the Queene called to be Churches that the bad were not separated frō the good that our ordainers were Idolaters that we are their children no Ministers of Christ but Baals priests persecutors so haue no word of God nor no Sacraments nor true church all being polluted with the open sinnes committed Thus both make the holie things of the Lord which indeed are vnchangeable or els we could haue no cōfort as namely the word of God the praiers the Sacraments the ordination of Ministers to be polluted destroied by the wickednes of men The Donatists held that Princes were not to compell vnto religion so cried out of persecution gloried of their sufferings multitude of martyres And what do the Brownists These things with the rest will better appeare in the seuerall comparisons as they followe in my booke I now intreate the reader not to iudge of any one thing vntill he haue read the whole I also desire that the sayings of the ancient writers which I alleage may be wel waied for proofe of that for which I cite them If any shall say what shall we ground vppon men I answer I alleage them but to shew what the controuersie was how it was disputed on both sides for this they are sufficient witnesses Beleeue their reasons as ye find they be confirmed by the holie Scriptures I haue set downe the Latin least any should thinke I haue not dealt plainlie And touching the last part of this my booke which is an answer to Master Greenwood
concerning read prayer peruse it throughlie and then iudge whether I haue charged him wrongfullie in any matter I do lament that many of our people which haue been hearers of the Gospell should be so ignorant as to suck in such dregs as he offereth Now to conclude there are two things which deceiue many which I desire thē to consider one is that they are caried away with many true and notable sentences of Scripture worthie principles which the Brownists set down not considering or not espying how they from them doo draw out false assumptions and thereupon cōclude that which is vntrue The other is that they looke not vpō that which followeth vppon their wordes by consequence but stand vpon this O they hold no such thing they haue wrong Master Greenwood crieth out that he doth not condēneal Churches he denieth not that the psalmes are to be sung to God he saith not that the regenerate do not sin he hath no such meaning he hath wrong But mark if I haue done him any wrong at all looke vpon his sayings and vpon that which must needes followe vpon them The other Brownists crie out of the like wrōgs Iudge not vntil both ye heare wherein they haue wrong and see mine answer If I haue charged them with matter which either their words doo not expresse or that followeth not from them by necessarie consequence let me then bee iudged rash and vncharitable FINIS That the Brownists are full Donatists NO Apostle no Prophet no Euangelist no true pastor or teacher can haue his owne name put vpon the Disciples which he gathereth but as they bee all gathered onely by Christes doctrine and vnto Christ alone according as it is written one is your Doctor euen Christ Matth. 23. so are they onely by his title called Christians But it hath béen the manner of olde and euen from the time of the Apostles in Gods Church when any wicked schisme or heresie hath sprung vp to call the scholers and followers by the names of the first masters of the same and chiefe leaders As of Montanus the Montanists of Nouatius the Nouatians of Arrius the Arrians of Pelagius the Pelagians of Donatus the Donatists of the Pope the Papists c. And who shall reprehend this as vaine or condemne it as a thing vniust seeing wee followe his example who saith to the Angell of the Church of Pergamus Reuel 2. Thou hast them which hold the doctrine of the Nicholaitanes Now there is a sect in England commonly called Brownists not because Browne was the first originall of it but for that he hath written and published bookes in maintenance and enlargement thereof and with more skill and learning than others which either as yet haue followed or gone before him Many men thinke that they bee sprung vp but of late whereas in very déede it is well knowne there was a Church of them in London 20. yeares past and one Bolton a principall doer therein whose fearefull end is not forgotten I haue termed them the Donatists of England How iustly and how charitablie and with what due consideration it standeth me now vpon to shewe least the ignoranter sort of such as somewhat fauour them should imagine that I haue iniuriouslie and falselie giuen them this odious title to worke their vniust discredite For Donatisme in olde time about twelue hundred yeares past was condemned as a detestable proud Schisme and heresie that began at Carthage in Aphrica and was vehementlie withstood by the faithfull Pastors and cut downe by the holie Scriptures as no learned godlie man will denie The holie Father Augustine was the chiefe that did ouerthrowe them as his writings which are extant answering to their writings at large doo declare Now my purpose at this time is to compare them together the Donatists and the Brownists from point to point out of the writings of Augustine If it fall out cléere and manifest that they agree together as euen as two peeces of cloath that are of the same wooll the same threed colour working breadth and that an Egge is no liker to an Egge than they be each to other I hope all that be sober minded will not blame me for giuing them the same title Their originall first of the Donatists I meane and how they cut off themselues is to bee noted set foorth which was this From the birth of our Sauiour Christ for the space of thrée hundred yeares more there were euer anon great and greeuous persecutions raised vp against the Church by the Romane Emperours vntill the Emperour Constantine the great imbraced the holie Gospell and gaue peace to the Christians In those daies of persecution such as through feare or otherwise did deliuer to the cruell persecutors either the bookes of the holie Scriptures that they might burne and deface them or the vessells appointed for holie vse in the publike assemblies that they might carrie them away or the names of the brethren that they might finde them out such I say were called traditores that is deliuerers or traitors There was a rumour that such offence had béen by some committed as no doubt it was by many Now as Augustine reporteth in his Psalme against the Donatists there came certaine Bishops from Numidia vnto Carthage a famous Citie in Aphrica to ordeine a Bishop and found Caecilianus alreadie ordeined and placed in the Seate then were they wroth that they could not ordeine They ioyned together and layd a crime vpon Caecilianus They say his ordeiner deliuered the holie bookes and was a traitor whereupon they will haue him reputed no Minister of Christ but the sonne of a traitor There was no assemblie of the learned Pastors for to iudge in this case according to Christes ordinance and discipline the accused and the accuser did not stand foorth for triall There were no witnesses produced to prooue the crime neither were matters scanned by the Scriptures But furor dolus tumultus that is furie deceipt and tumult did beare the sway as Augustine sheweth in the same his Psalm They assembled which were the accusers and Caecilianus is condemned being absent by Tigisitanus Secundus as hée sheweth in his first booke against Parmenian Chap. 3. and in his third booke against Cresconius Chap. 40. Now was there great stirre and deuision begun Donatus he steppeth foorth and requireth of the Emperour Constantine to haue Iudges not of Aphrica out beyond the seas to heare the crime which was to be obiected against Caecilianus The Emperour appointed that the matter should bee heard at Rome where Caecilianus was cléered and Donatus and his part receiuing repulse appealed accusing Meltiades then Bishop of Rome that he was also traditor as Augustine reporteth in his first booke against Parmenian Chapt. 5. and so they require to haue the cause heard by the Emperour vnto whom they had appealed where hauing also the repulse as false accusers they say y e Emperour was corrupted through fauour They made a
for that I say many such returned to professe the Gospell againe as members of the Church and were receiued For saide the Donatists the Church is holie consisting of such as be called foorth and separated from the vnpure and wicked world and therefore no separation being made but such villanous traitors so vile Idolaters and their childrē being communicated withall all your assemblies through this mixture are none other before GOD but heapes of abominable vncleane persons Your teachers are the sonnes of Apostates and traitors and no Ministers of Christ Now looke vpon the Donatists of England Antichrist hath béen exalted according to the prophesie of S. Paule he hath sate in the Temple of God boasting himselfe as God persecuting and murthering Gods true worshippers He is disclosed by the glorious light of the Gospell his damnable doctrine cursed Idolatrie and vsurped tyrannie are cast foorth of this land by the holie sacred power of our dread Soueraigne Ladie Quéene Elizabeth whom God hath placed settled vpon the Throne of this noble Kingdome The true doctrine of faith is published and penalties are by lawes appoynted for such as shall stubbernlie despise the same Our Donatists crie out that our assemblies as ye may see in their printed bookes and that the people were all by constraint receiued immediatlie from Idolatrie into our Church without preaching of the Gospell by the sound of a Trumpet at the Coronation of the Queene that they bee confused assemblies without any separation of the good from the bad They affirme also that our Ministers haue their discent and ordination and power from Antichrist and so are his marked seruants Hereupon not vnderstanding the manifest Scripture that the Apostasie hauing inuaded the Church it continued still euen then the Temple of God in which Antichrist did sit and that the verie Idolaters were within the Church were sealed with the signe of baptisme professed Christ in some points rightlie their children from ancient discent being within the couenant of God and of right to bee baptized the Ministerie of Christ so farre remaining as that it was the authentick seale which was deliuered by the same in a mad furie like blind hypocrites they condemne the reformation by ciuill power and purging Gods Temple by the authoritie of Princes because the Church of Christ is founded and built by the doctrine of the Gospell Herein they are deceiued that they imagine the Princes take vpon them to compell those to bée a Church which were none before whereas indeed they doo but compell those within their kingdome ouer whome the Lord hath set them which haue receiued the signe of the couenant and professe themselues to bee members of the Church accordinglie to renounce and forsake all false worship and to imbrace the doctrine of saluation What other thing did Iosias and other holie Kings of Iuda when they compelled the multitude of Idolaters which were the seede of Abraham and circumcised to forsake their Idolatrie and to worship the Lord It is most cléere also that where the reformation of the Kings was not perfect as appeareth in the bookes of the Kings and Chronicles yet all the foulest things being abolished and the substance of trueth brought in they were reputed godlie Churches where many were false brethren and open offenders The Brownists blinded with their swelling pride and not séeing the euident matters of the Scriptures without all order of that holie discipline of Christ accuse condemne and forsake our Churches vnder the appearance of feruent zeale and rigorous seueritie against all sinne not inferiour to the Donatists as if they were the onely men that stood for Christ and his kingdome they crie out aloude and proclaime all the Ministers of our Churches to be Antichristian the sonnes of the Pope false Prophets Baals Priests that prophesie in Baal and pleade for Baal persecutors of the iust bearing the marke the power and life of the beast because they say our ordeiners bee such They say wee haue no word of God no Sacraments nor true Church but that all is vtterlie polluted and become abominable our assemblies they call the very Synagogs of Antichrist vtterlie fallen from the couenant of God and all that ioyne with them through the pollution of open sinners which are not cast foorth and therefore they haue separated themselues and crie aloude vnto others to doo the same if they will be saued What rule of discipline haue they obserued in this Haue these things béen brought foorth scanned discussed and iudged in the Synods of the learned Pastors and teachers of the Churches Nay but euen as Augustine saith of the other furor dolus tumultus furie deceipt and tumult do beare the sway Then I conclude that in this poynt of accusing condemning and manner of separating themselues from the Church the Donatists and the Brownists doo agree and are alike Some man will here replie that I build vppon a weake ground or rather vpon the sand in prouing the Brownists and the Donatists to bée all one because they are alike in accusing and condemning the Churches and separating themselues from the same For the matter resteth not simply vpon the actions but whether there were iust cause The question will bee whether the Brownists doo that iustlie which the Donatists did vngodly For the Donatists did accuse the Churches and Ministers falsely condemned them most wickedly and therefore their separation could not bee good because it was from the true Churches of Christ but now if the Brownists obiect open and manifest crimes such as cannot be denied their case doth differ farre May not a man separate himselfe from those assemblies where he seeth open sinners suffered on heapes to remaine in the bosome of the Church and where idolatries blasphemies and abominations are committed where the Ministers and gouernment be Antichristian but he must bée a Donatist Moreouer it is certaine the Donatists did condemne all Churches in the world the Brownists doo condemne onely the assemblies as they generally stand in England which is a very great difference The Donatists hold that the Sacraments or the efficacie of them doth depend vpon the worthines of the Minister the Brownists are not of that mind The Donatists did rebaptize the Brownists doo vrge no such thing It may be also they are vnlike in some other things if it be so why should they be termed Donatists Indeed if there be such differences the Brownists haue great wrong to bee called Donatists and to bee condemned with so wicked a sect But what if it fall out otherwise and that it be shewed and prooued manifestlie that they be all one in these things Shall wee not then say they be euen brethren shall they not stand or fall with the Donatists shall they be vngodlie Schismatickes and not these I will procéede from poynt to poynt to compare them together that it may appeare whether there be difference Touching the first it is most true that the Donatists did accuse and condemne
the Churches and the Ministers of the Churches most falselie and I say the Brownists are as false accusers as they and condemne as iniustlie in all crimes which they obiect and shall in no wise bee found vnlike in this poynt Yea will it bee sayd how shall that appeare All men doo knowe that the Brownists may without any false accusing lay greeuous faults to the Church of England I graunt they may and I say likewise the Donatists might lay as great faults to the charge of many Churches then and in some points greater yet be no liers This is to be prooued by comparing the Churches of those times with ours for so shall wee see how farre both haue iustlie accused or might accuse and where they meete together as false accusers The Brownists may stand foorth and accuse the church of England in this manner That there bee heapes of open sinners not separated from among the good but suffered and admitted to the Lords table at least wise in many or in the most assemblies There be prophane ignorant persons that despise the holie religion There bee swearers and cursers There bee those that are puffed vp and swell in pride and vaine glorie There be swarmes of drunkards gluttons and vnchast persons There be couetous worldlings and greedie vsurers extortioners oppressors bribers and defrauders There be liers backbiters and slanderers There bée enuious hateful and contentious persons yea what sinnes almost are wanting Where shall a man goe but he is readie to fall into companies of wicked men This is not alone among the common people but verie many of those that should bee guiders lights and patternes of godlinesse vnto others are nothing lesse Who is able to deny these things heauen and earth will witnesse against him We may lift vp our voyces and say wee haue sinned with our fathers wee haue done wickedlie We may confesse that our iniquities are heaped vp and reach aboue the clowdes and that shame and confusion of face is due vnto vs. Wee may crie saue Lord for the godlie cease the faithfull are diminished from the children of men The complaints that the Prophets doo make euerie where against the Church of Israel may verie well be applied against vs. Where is loue where is fidelitie where is mercie where is trueth But now shall wee thinke that the Donatists had no such things to accuse the Churches of in those daies Could they not say your assemblies are full of couetous men proud persons both men and women Had they not iust cause to complaine that many walked in hatred and discord Doo ye imagine that there were no vngodlie Ministers or will ye suppose that Augustine and other holie men stoode to cléere and iustifie the Churches that way against the Donatists and other Heretickes Nay let their words bee heard what they testifie in this behalfe Cresconius alleaged this saying of the Lord I will giue ye shepheards according to my heart which shal feede yee with knowledge and vnderstanding Ieremy 3. This he cited to prooue that the Pastors ought to bee faithfull Augustine maketh answere thus Scio completum est tales Apostoli fuerunt tales etiam nunc etsi pro ecclesiae latitudine perpauci non tamen desunt That is I knowe it is fulfilled such were the Apostles such also there be now though very fewe in respect of the largenes of the Church yet they are not wanting This is a plain testimonie that in the time of Augustine the faithfull sincere godlie Pastors were verie fewe in comparison Many testimonies may be brought out of diuers ancient writers for this matter but I will bring but some fewe and first out of Cyprian which alone are sufficient being both large and cleere Cyprian was in the time of persecution before the Donatists sprung vp and after one persecution was ouer he wrote an Epistle de lapsis of those that fell and denied Christ In which first he triumphantly reioyceth ouer them which stoode then he mourneth dolefullie for those that fell and after that he sheweth why God sent that persecution Si cladis causa cognoscitur medela vulneris inuenitur Deus probare familiam suam voluit If saith he the cause of the slaughter be knowne the cure of the wound is found also God would prooue his familie Et quia traditam nobis diuinitus disciplinam pax longa corruperat iaceÌ„tem fidem poenè dixerim dormientem censura coelestis erexit That is and because long peace had corrupted the discipline deliuered vs of God the heauenlie censure hath raised vp the faith lying along I may say almost sleeping Then shewing that God did not punish them so much as they deserued he setteth foorth the greeuous open sinnes committed in the Church Studebant augendo patrimonio singuli obliti quid credentes aut sub Apostolis ante fecissent aut postmodum facere deberent insatiabili cupiditatis ardore ampliandis facultatibus incubabant That is They studied euerie one to increase their patrimonie and hauing forgotten either what the beleeuers had done before in the time of the Apostles or what they ought to doo afterward they all did applie themselues to increase their riches with an insatiable burning heate of couetous desire Here is one sinne that ouerspread then he addeth further Non in Sacerdotibus religio deuota non in ministris fides integra non in operibus misericordia non in moribus disciplina There was not deuout religion in the Priests there was not the sound faith in the Ministers there was not mercie in workes there was not discipline in manners And what more Corrupta barba in viris in foeminis forma fucata Adulterati post dei manus oculi capilli mendacio coloraâ—i Ad decipienda corda simplicium callidae fraudes circumueniendis fratribus subdolae voluptates Iungere cum infidelibus vinculum matrimonij prostituere cum gentilibus membra Christi Non iurare tantum temerè sed adhuc etiam peierare Prapositos superbo tumore contemnere venenato ore sibi maledicere Odijs pertinacibus inuicem dissidere The beard was corrupted or disguised in men the beautie was counterfeit or painted in women The eyes corrupted from the forme in which Gods hands had made them the haires were set out with a false colour subtill fraudes to deceiue the hearts of the simple deceiptfull pleasures to circumuent the brethren They coupled themselues in mariage with infidels they prostituted the members of Christ with the heathen they did not onely sweare rashlie but also forsweare They contemned their gouernours with swelling pride and cursed themselues with venymed mouth being at discord among themselues with stiffe hatreds Are not these horrible sinnes which ouerflowed in the church Is there no more Yes he saith Episcopi plurimi quos ornamento esse oportet ceteris exemplo diuina procuratione contempta procuratores rerum secularium fieri derelicta cathedra plebe deserta per alienas prouincias oberrantes
negociationis quaestuosae nundinas aucupari Esurientibus in ecclesia fratribus habere argentum largiter velle fundos insidiosis fraudibus rapere vsuris multiplicantibus foenus augere That is very many Bishops which ought to bee an ornament and an example vnto other men despising the deuine cure became factors in worldly matters leauing the chaire forsaking the people wandring through other Prouinces did hunt after faires or markets of gainefull trafficke The brethren hungring in the Church they had siluer in great plentie they would in rauening manner get lands by subtill fraud increase their gaine with vsurie What shall we say did this holie Cyprian falselie accuse the Churches of his time in laying these greeuous crimes to the charge both of the Pastors and the people Doubtles he spake the trueth It will be demaunded whether Cyprian and the rest of the godlie did worship together with those open sinners ioyning with them in praier receiuing the Sacraments We see it is manifest they did for he describeth not the heathen or such as had been cast foorth of the Church but such as God sent chasticement vpon to raise vp the faith which was almost as he saith a sleepe He doth also testifie in plaine wordes that the godlie could not separate themselues from the Church because of such open sinners without proud obstinacie and sacrilegious presumption He speaketh vpon this occasion there were certaine which had suffered imprisonment for the Gospell among whom was one Maximus an Elder and certaine brethren which when they came out of prison separated themselues from the Church taking offence at the open sinners which were not cast foorth as it appeareth by the words of Cyprian For hauing testified his gladnes y t they had forsaken their schisme and did returne againe into the Church he addeth Nam etsi videntur in ecclesia esse zizania non tamen impediri debet aut fides aut charit as nostra vt quoniam zizania esse in ecclesia semper cernimus ipsi de ecclesia recedamus Nobis tantummodo laborandum est vt frumentum esse possimus vt cum caperit frumentum dominicis horreis condi fructum pro opere nostro labore capiamus That is Although there bee tares seene to be in the Church yet neither our faith nor our charitie ought to be hindered that because wee alwaies perceiue tares to be in the Church wee our selues should goe out of the Church wee must onely labour that we may bee corne that when the corne shall begin to belayd vp in the Lords barnes wee may receiue fruit for our work labour Then further he addeth Apostolus in Epistola sua dicit in domo autem magna non solū vasa sunt aurea argentea sed lignea fictilia et quaedā quidē honorata quaedā vero inhonorata nos operā demus quantum possumus laboremus vt vas aureū vel argenteū simus The Apostle his Epistle saith but in a great house there are not onely vessels of gold and siluer but also of wood and earth and some vnto honour and some vnto dishonour let vs doo our endeuour and labour what we can that wee may be vessels of gold or at least of siluer Finallie he saith Caeterum fictilia vasa confringere domino soli concessum est cui virga ferrea data est Esse non potest maior domino suo seruus nec quisquam sibi quod soli filio pater tribuit vendicarit vt se putet vniuersa posse zizania humano iudicio segregare superba est ista obstinatio sacrilega presumptio quam sibi furor prauus adsumit dum sibi semper quidam plus quam mitis iusticia deposcit assumunt de ecclesia pereunt dum se insolenter extollunt ipso suo tumore caecati veritatis lumen amittunt But it is graunted onely to the Lord to breake the earthen vessels to whom also the yron mace is giuen The seruant cannot be greater than his Lord neither shall any challenge that to himselfe which the father hath giuen to the sonne alone that he should think he can by humane iudgement seuer all the tares That is a proud obstinacie and sacrilegious presumption which wicked furie doth take to it selfe And while some doo alwaies take more vpon them than meeke iustice dooth require they perish out of the Church and while they insolentlie extoll themselues being blinded with that very swelling of theirs they lose the light of the trueth What can be more manifest than these testimonies which shewe that there were greeuous open sinnes committed by multitudes in the Church not onely of the common sort but euen of the teachers We see they did communicate together as in the old Church vnder the law heapes of notorious wicked men did flock vnto the Temple and worship at the same Altar and Sacrifices with the godlie Hierom in his Epistle to Paulinus sheweth there were many of all sorts both men and women which did presumptuouslie ignorantlie with baine glorie prattle of the scriptures and so abuse the bolie word of God And in the Ministrie there were that had stepped from seculer learning to deale with the Scriptures which being able to rowle out words thought they made goodlie sermons Therefore if the Donatists had but complained that there were multitudes of open sinners in the Church as proude couetous hatefull persons irreligious and prophane abusers of the Scriptures and not only of the common sort but also of the teachers their complaint had béen true But when they proceeded thus That all that did communicate with any such open sinners were polluted by them and fell from God and so termed all the Pastors wicked traitors and Iudasses wretches whose worship and praiers were abominable and all the people that ioyned with them prophane and heathen therein they became false accusers and wicked coudemners they did with most intollerable pride and sacrilegious treacherie publish a diuorse betweene Christ and his spouse The Brownists offend in the same degree in accusing condemning and casting foorth the Churches of Christ affirming that by open sinners admitted to the Lords table all are fallen from the couenant of grace haue no true Sacraments nor Church but are as an heape of polluted heathen whose worship and praiers are abominable Now that it may appeare vnto euery one that will not shut his eyes that in this point our Brownists I speake of the Capitaines are full Donatists I wilenter into the particular discourses and shew vpon what Scriptures they stood and with what arguments they maintained this their wicked hereticall opinion And what answere they receaued from the holieseruants of God the pastors of the Churches Wherein I desire the reader to obserue whether there may be found one haire breadth of difference between them talke with the Brownists about this point which they hold that where open sinners are admitted to the participation of the Sacraments all which
communicate with them are polluted and cast away or reade the bookes and writings of theirs which are spread marke well the sentences and places of Scripture which they alleage and quote and what reasons they drawe out of them and then looke vpon these For I will note the chiefe Testimonies of holy Scripture that the Donatists did alleage to proue that all Churches were polluted by the mixture of open sinners and that a separation was commaunded by God from such assemblies which are these Come out from among them saieth the Lord and touch no vncleane thing and I will receaue yee and I will be your Father and you shall be my Sonnes and my Daughters saith the Lord God Almightie 2. Cor. 6. Haue no fellowship with the vnfruitefull workes of darkenes but rather reprooue them Ephes 5. Bee not partakers of other mens sinnes 1. Tim. 5. A little leauen dooth leauen the whole lumpe and take away the euill from among yee 1. Cor. 5. Ifanie which is called a Brother be a Fornicator an I dolater or couetous c. with such see that yee eate not 1. Cor. 5. What hath the Chaffe to doo with the Corne Ierem. 23. Also depart depart come out from thence and touch no vncleane thing come out from the middest thereof and seperate your selues yee that beare the vessels of the Lord. I say 52. All these and some other did Parmenian the Donatist Bishop alleage in his Epistle Wee may not thinke that these Scriptures were alleaged onely by some one Donatist for Augustine in his booke De vnico Baptismo against Petilian Chapter 14. saith Magis enim solent in ore habere quando peccatis aliorum alios criminantur ad excusandum nefas separationis suae videbas furem concurrebas cum eo c. For they are wont rather to haue in their mouth when they accuse some to be guiltie or polluted by the sinnes of other to excuse their wicked seperation Thou sawest a theefe and diddest run with him Psal 50. And be not partakers of other mens sinnes depart and come out from thence touch no vncleane thing he that shal touch that which is vncleane shal be poluted and a little leauen dooth leauen the whole lump and other such like Now what the estate of the question was and how they held men polluted if they did not seperate themselues the disputation betweene the Catholique Bishops and the Donatists which were assembled at the cōmaundement of the Emperour dooth shew Where the names of the Donatist Bishops that had subscribed their consent to that conference were two hundreth seauentie and nine but some of them were not there Thus Augustine reporteth their words in the conference of the third day Chapter 4. Quia in eo quod dicebant diuinis testimonijs velut astruebant non esse malos in ecclesia tolerandos sed ab eis recedendum propter contagium peccatorum Itase dicere demonstrabant vt tamen ignoratis peccatis alienis neminem maculari posse faterentur Because euen in that which they saide and which they did as it were confirme by the Scriptures that the euil are not to be tolerate in the Church but wee must depart from them for feare of the contagion of their sins they shewed that they spake it to be vnderstoode thus that neuerthelesse they confessed that no man could be spotted with other mens sinnes which are secret In this conference the Donatist Bishops stoode vpon this that the Lord saith of the Church Esay 52. There shall no vncircumcised or vncleane passe through thee anie more And vpō that which is writtē by the Prophet Hag chap. 2. Ask the Preests concerning the Lawe If a man carrie holie flesh in the lappe of his garment and the lappe of his garment shall touch the bread c. Shall he bee sanctified The Priests answered no. Then if a man that is vncleane touch any of those things shall it not bee vncleane The Priestes answer it shall bee vncleane So is this people and so is this Nation before me saith the Lord and so is the whole work of their hands yea that which they haue offered there hath been vncleane Stay now and see whether the very same Scriptures bee not in the mouthes of the common sort of the Brownists and whether the writings of the chiefe Brownists bee not euerie where spatred with the quotations of them And to proue the same thing which the Donatists held and maintained by them namelie that such as communicate with open sinners are polluted by their sinnes and therefore they separate themselues But that this agreement betweene them may yet more fully appeare I will proceed further and shewe how these matters were discussed For otherwise it maye bee some man will imagine that the auncient Fathers might defend the Churches against those allegations of the Donatists after such a sort as wee canne not truly defende ours at this day Whereas therefore it was by the Donatists vrged depart depart come out from among them seperate your selues touch no vncleane thing c. the answere was by the Pastors of the Churches that this seperation was not to bee made in bodie when the Church is pestered with open sinners but in heart and not consenting in minde vnto the sins openly committed by those with whom they did communicate in the Church These be the wordes of Augustine against Parmenian in the second booke Chapt. 18. Qua verba isti carnaliter sentientes per tot diuisiones seipsos minutatim in ipsa vna Aphrica conciderunt Non enim intelligunt neminem coniungi cum infidelibus nisi qui facit peccata Paganorum vel talia facientibus fauet Nec quenquam fieri participem iniquitatis nisi qui iniqua vel agit vel approbat Quis autem communicat tenebris nisi qui per tenebras consentionis suae dimisso Christo sequitur Belial quis ponit cum infidelibus partem suam nisi qui eius infidelitatis fit particeps Ita enim templum dei esse desinit nec se aliter simulachris adiungit Qui autem sunt templum dei viui in medio nationis tortuosae ac peruersae apparent sicut luminaria in mundo verbum vitae habentes nihil eos quod pro vnitate tolerant inficit nec angustiantur quia in illis habitat deambulat deus exeunt de medio malorum atque separātur interim corde ne forté cum id facere per seditionem Schismatis volūt prius a bonis spiritualiter quam a malis corporaliter separentur That is to say which words they vndetstanding carnally for he had before repeated their allegation Come out from among them and touch no vncleane thing they haue cut themselues by morsels into so many diuisiōs in that one Aphrica for they doe not vnderstand that no man is ioyned with Infidels but he that doth commit the sinnes of the Pagans or else doth fauour those that doe such things neither that any
seueritate That is Neither haue I therefore sayd this that the ecclesiasticall discipline should be neglected and that euery one should be suffered to do what he will without rebuke and without a certaine medicinable reuenge terrible lenittie and seueritie of loue In the 37. Chap. of the same booke hauing spoken of the corne and the chaffe mixed together the wheate and the tares growing together the good fishes and the had in the same nette together vnto the end of the world he then inferreth Nec propterea tamen ecclesiastica disciplina negligitur à constantibus diligentibus prudentibus dispensatoribus Christi vbi crimina ita manifest antur vt nulla possint probabili ratione defendi That is Notwithstanding the ecclesiasticall discipline is not therefore neglected of the constant diligent and wise dispensers of Christ where the crimes are manifested in such sort that they can in no probable maner be defended In the fourth Chapter of his booke after the conference with the Donatists taking aduantage of a saying which they vttered which was this Nec causae causa praeiudicat nec personae persona That is neither doth cause preiudicate cause neither one person another Hee saith that the cause and person of the tares doth not preiudicate the cause and person of the wheat growing together in the same field vntill the haruest come The cause and person of the chaffe doth not preiudicate the cause and person of the corne beeing together in the same floare vntill the last winnowing The cause and person of the goates doth not preiudicate the cause and person of the sheepe kept together in the same pastures vntill the great shepheard shall separate them to the right hand and to the left in the last day The cause and person of the euill fishes doth not preiudicate the cause and person of the good fishes though they bee held in the same nette to be separated in the last shoare Then he addeth Quibus parabolis figuris ecclesia praenunciata est vsque in finem seculi bonos malos simul habitura ita vt nec mali bonis obesse possint cum velignorantur vel pro pace tranquillitate ecclesiae tolerantur si eos prodi aut aâ—cusari non oportuerit aut alijs bonis non potuerit demonstrari ita sanè vt nec emendationis vigilantia quiescat corripiendo degradando excommunicando caeterisque coertionibus licitis atque concessis quae salua vnitatis pace in ecclesia quotidie fiunt secundum praeceptum Apostolicum charitate seruata qui dixit si quis autem non obaudit verbo nostro per epistolam hunc notate nolite commisceri cum eo vt erubescat non vt inimicum existimetis sed corripite vt fratrem Sic enim disciplina seruat patientiam patientia temperat disciplinam vtrumque refertur ad charitatem ne fortè aut indisciplinata patientia foueat iniquitatem aut impatiens disciplina dissipet vnitatem That is to say By which parables and figures the Church is foreshewed that it shall haue the good and the bad together vnto the ende of the world so as the euil cannot hurt the good when either they are not knowne or else are tolerated for the peace and tranquilitie of the Church if it be not behoueful that they shal be manifested or accused or that it cannot be shewed to others that be good euen so verelie as yet the watchfulnesse of redressing may in no wise rest in rebuking degrading excommunicating and in other lawfull and allowable restraints which the peace of vnitie receiuing no dammage are daylie practised in the Church without any hindrance or breach of loue according to the Apostles precept which sayd If any obey not our word note him by an Epistle and haue no fellowship with him that he may bee ashamed and esteeme him not as an enemie but admonish him as a brother For in so doing the discipline doth keepe patience and patience doth temper the discipline and both are referred vnto charitie least either vndisciplined patience should foster iniquitie or impatient discipline might dissolue and scatter the vnitie Thus farre Augustine by which words he sheweth that albeit the good and the bad shall alwaies euen to the end of the world bee mixed together on heapes in the Church so that oftentimes open sinners cannot bee all cast foorth without daunger of schisme and therefore are to be tollerated for the peace of the Church yet the discipline is not to sleepe but sinners are to bee rebuked such as beare publike office if they deserue are to be degraded and depriued The notorious wicked are to bee excommunicated where the multitude is not guiltie with them but that they may be forsaken of all and so made ashamed but loue according to the rule of Saint Paule is to sit at the stearne and to order the whole matter least the seueritie of chasticing discipline if it were not mixed and tempered or as I may say delaied with patience might breed tumults and schismes and separations or least on the other side if tollerating patience were not sharpened by the seueritie of discipline it might nourish all manner of wickednes We see then what was the practise of the auncient Churches and that touching the Ecclesiasticall censures the mixture of patience and seueritie whollie referred vnto loue doo make a soueraigne plaister and medicine to salue and cure the sores of the Church Where these be not tempered together there is great decay for as the rigorous seueritie of Donatisme without any aswaging the heate of seueritie with the mixture of loue and patient tolleration doth rend vp and furiouslie teare all in peeces so doth ouermuch or a loose sufferance for it deserueth not the name of patience not regarding Gods honor nor mens saluation suffer the Lords field to ouergrowe with tares and fill the Lords Courts with Goates and Swine whereby holie things are greatlie prophaned the weake are made to stumble and many are cast downe Touching this first point then in controuersie betwéene the Donatists and the Churches I will conclude it with that which Augustine writeth in his treatise De vnitate Ecclesiae Chapt. 16. where hauing shewed in the former parts of the same booke that the controuersie was not about the head which is Christ but about the bodie which is his Church For touching the head they agreed and touching the bookes of holie Scripture and their authoritie there was no dissent at all betweene the Donatists and them Then further he commeth to this poynt that as Christ the head is to bee sought for and knowne onlie in the Canonicall Scriptures so the Church which is his bodie is likewise to be sought for found out and iudged onely by the same bookes of Scripture Then he calleth for triall not by those darke places of the Byble which are spoken in figures and may be expounded diuers waies in probable sense but from the manifest cléere
testimonies which also he alleageth out of many bookes both of the old and newe Testament to prooue that the Church should bee spread ouer all the kingdomes and nations of the world He answereth the places of Scriptures which they alleaged to prooue that the world at sundrie times had so fallen away from God that a verie fewe true worshippers remained and why might not they be now as those fewe He sheweth that there be innumerable testimonies to prooue that the open bad did communicate together with the good in the Sacraments and that the good were fewe in comparison of the bad so mixed with them of which after he hath cited many he commeth at the last as it were to a conclusion that al other things remooued hee would haue them shewe their Church out of the holie Scriptures and from the places which are not darke And then it followeth Quisquis ergo huic epistolae responderese praeparat ante denunciationem mihi dicat illi codices dominicos ignibus tradiderunt illi simulacris gentium sacrificauerūt illi nobis iniquissimam persecutionem fecerunt et vos eis in omnibus consensistis Breuiter enim respondeo quod saepè respondi aut falsa dicitis aut si vera sunt non ad frumenta Christi sed ad eorum paleam pertinent ista quae dicitis non inde perit ecclesia quae optimo iudicio ventilata istorum omnium separatione purgabitur That is to say Whosoeuer therefore prepareth himselfe to answere this Epistle let him before the denouncing say vnto me such deliuered the Lords bookes to the fire such sacrificed to the Idols of the Gentiles such haue persecuted vs most vniustlie and you haue consented vnto them in all things For I answer brieflie which I haue often answered either ye speake things which are false or else if they bee true that which ye speake pertaineth not to the corne of Christ but to the chaffe thereof the Church doth not perish thereby which winnowed with most perfect iudgement shall bee purged by the separation of that same chaffe He addeth Ego ipsam ecclesiā requiro vbi sit quae audiendo verba Christi faciendo aedificat super petram audiendo faciendo tolerat eos qui audiendo non faciendo aedificant super arenam Vbi sit triticum quod inter zizania crescit vsque ad messem non quid fecerint vel faciant ipsa zizania Vbi sit proxima Christi in medio filiarum malarum sicut lilium in medio spinarum non quid fecerint vel faciunt ipsae spinae Vbi sunt pisces boni qui donec ad littus perueniant tolerant pisces malos pariter irretitos non fecerint aut faciant ipsi pisces mali That is to say I seeke the Church where she is which in hearing the words of Christ and doing them doth build vpon a rocke and which hearing and doing doth tolerate those which hearing and not dooing doo build vppon the sand Where that wheate is which groweth vp among the tares vntill the haruest come not what the tares haue done or what they doo Where that spouse of Christ is in the middest of the euill daughters as the lillie among the thornes not what the thornes haue done or what they doo Where the good fishes be which vntill they come vnto the shore doo tolerate the euill fishes held in the same nette together not what the euill fishes haue done or what they doo Thus haue I laide open that the Church in olde time was full of open wicked men both of ministers and people That the Donatists vnder the colour of zeale and seueritie against sinne did separate themselues affirming that all were polluted and fallen from the couenant which did communicate in the worship of god and Sacraments with such notorious euill men All men may see by that which I haue noted that the Donatists did maintaine this their opinion with the same Scriptures and argumēts that the Brownists doe maintaine it withall nowe And receiued the same answers to confute them which we make nowe to confute the Brownists This was the maine point of Donatisme and as it were the pith substance therof it is one of the foure chiefe pillers of Brownisme Yea but now the Brownists doe separate themselues from a worship which is Idolatrous full of blasphemies and abhominations The Donatists did rend themselues from an holy and true worship Indeede where the worship is Idolatrous and blasphemous a man is to separate himselfe But there are many and great corruptions before it come to that for it is the true worship of God where the foundation is layd and standeth sure If there be timber Hay and stubble built vpon the foundation the fault is great such things are not to bee approued But yet there is Gods true worship And now to come to the verie poynt of the matter I doe affirme wil stand to iustifie that there were greater corruptions in the worship of God euen in those Churches from which the Donatists did seperate themselues than be at this day in the worship of the Church of England So that if Brownisme be any thing to be excused in that the Donatisme may as iustly therein be defended For if wee consider matters which concerne doctrine what can any man shew so corrupt in this our Church as in the publike worship to pray for the soules of the dead and to offer oblations for the dead This corruption was generall in the Church then yea long before the dayes of Augustine as it appeareth in Cyprian and by Tertullian which was before him and nerer to the time of the Apostles who in his booke De Monogamia reasoning against second mariage for hee was fallen into that error woulde perswade any woman that had buried her husband not to marie againe because he being seperated from her in peace not diuorced she was to pray for his soule and yearely to offer oblation for him thus he writeth Et pro anima eius oret refrigerium interim ad postulet ei in prima resurrectione consortium offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius That is And let her pray for his soule and craue refreshing for him nowe in the meane time and his felowship in the first resurrection and let her offer yearely vpon the day of his departure It will bee said by some ignorant man that this was but the minde and practise of some few which were corrupt and superstitious I answere it was the practise of the Church in generall and the corruption so auncient that the same Tertullian in his booke De corona militis speaking of it certain other things saith they were obserued by tradition from the Apostles they were obserued so generally in the Churches and no scripture to warrant them These bee his wordes Oblationes pro defunctis annua die facimus Wee make oblations for the dead in the yeerely day The doctrine of Purgatory
the head and the members they put the Fathers and the Children for the stock and the braunches they put the Trée and the boughes which is all one And from the roote as it were from the Fountaine and head they deriue the life the power and the Image c. Thus they agrée then that the one part saide those which ordeined ye were such as sacrificed to Idols and Traitors verie Iudasses you are their children and like them The other part saieth those that ordeined yee bée the creatures of Antichrist yée receiue the verie life and power of your Ministerie from them ye are their Children and so the Children of the Pope Now let vs sée the answer which Augustine maketh which is this In his omnibus verbis tuis creatorem meum caput meum non fecisti nisi traditorem quem quidem accusare tantùm non conuincere potuisti Ego autem nec eius innocentiam mihi creatricem vel fontem caputúe constituo Sed tu ad illud redis in quo Petilianus errauit cum cuiusque in sanctificatione baptismatis Christuâ— sit origâ— caputque nascentis nos vis venire in maledictuÌ„ de quo scriptum est maledictus omnis qui spem suam ponit in homine That is to say In all these thy wordes thou hast made my ordainer my head none other than a traitor whom thou couldest onely accuse but not conuince But I do not hold his innocencie to be that which hath ordained me a Minister or to be fountaine or head but thou doest returne to that in which Petilian erred when as Christ in the sanctification of baptisme is the originall and the head of euerie one that is borne againe and wilt haue vs come into the curse of which it is written Cursed is euerie one that putteth his trust in man Thus farre Augustine whose answere hath two parts The first is that the Donatists did accuse but could not prooue that the ordainers were such as in time of persecution had yeelded to sacrifice to Idols or deliuered the holie booke to the fire The other part is that whether he that ordained him were a godlie man or a wicked man the matter is all one touching his ordination and Ministrie The ordination not being mans the innocencie of man cannot be the ordainer it cannot bee the head or fountaine neither can it make his ordination the better Then likewise the wickednesse of the man that ordaineth cannot be the roote nor the fountain nor the head The men which ordaine are not the fathers of the Ministrie because it is not theirs which they deliuer but Christs That this is Augustines meaning it is cléere by that he telleth Cresconius he returned to that in which Petilian erred Petilian denying that it was baptisme that had béen ministred by an vngodlie man rendereth this reason that euerie thing must haue an originall and an head or else it is nothing Augustine replâ—eth that Christ onely is the originall and the head of him that is baptized and that the baptisme being Christs and not theirs that did deliuer it the goodnes of the Minister made it not one iot the better nor the wickednes of the Minister any whit the worse Adding moreouer that such as take the baptisme ministred by a godlie man to bee better in it selfe than that which is ministred by a naughtie man fall into the curse of which it is written Cursed is euerie one that putteth his trust in man He that hangeth the matters which are Christs vpon men putteth his trust in men The same answere that hée hath made to those his Donatists of Aphrica doo wee make vnto our Donatists of England First they accuse in most bitter and hainous manner but shall neuer be able to prooue their accusation for there is no Ministrie in England ordained by the Pope or for the Pope The Ministrie of publishing the Gospell and deliuering the Sacraments is not the deuice of man but Christes ordinance and therefore we receiue it not as theirs that deliuer it neither doth their godlines or vngodlines make it better or worse vnto vs. The Ministrie was not vtterlie destroyed in the Poperie for there remained the Sacrament of baptisme howsoeuer the Catabaptists denie the same How much is the Ministrie of Christ to bee acknowledged when it is onely to that end for which he ordained it though the men that ordaine should be most vngodlie This thing will more fullie appeare when we come to handle the agréement of the Brownists with the Donatists in that ranke Donatisme affirming it to bee no Sacrament which is ministred by an open wicked man Thus much may suffice to shewe that in denying the ministrie to bee Christs they hold the same ground and arguments and receiue the selfe same answere And for their rayling termes as generations of traitors seducers false Prophets Iudasses persecutors and such like I néed not mention the comparison of our men with them seeing they doo in this as in one of the chiefe vaines of their eloquence apparantlie excell Their basest disciples can crie out Antichrists Baals Priests false Prophets seducers and what not But it will bée sayd that in the matter of discipline the Donatists and Brownists are vnlike I graunt the Donatists that euer I haue read did take no exception that way That is not alone in question but whether there were any fault so that exception might betaken And for this men are to consider that as corruption in doctrine and ceremonies did enter betimes into the Church and growe a pace so also the discipline or externall gouernment was of many neglected abused and corrupted Sundrie of the Pastors being proud and ambitious the steppes were made for Antichrist to climbe vp who challenged not onely an externall power ouer all other but also a Lordship ouer the conscience Thus much touching the first obiection The second difference obiected is That the Donatists did condemne all Churches in the world The Brownists condemne but the Churches of England Indéed the Brownists doo affirme that they be farre from condemning all churches and so here is an apparant difference and a great at the first sight if men doo not narrowlie way and consider all matters They knowe it is a great preiudice vnto them if it bée found that they condemne all Churches but wee may not looke vpon their words of deniall but vpon the consequence of their matters For he that shooteth an arrowe at one thing and together therewith striketh another cannot bee sayd not to haue striken it because he had no such intent So must wee consider whether the dart of condemnation which they haue shot at the Church of England doo not together with the same runne through the sides of all Churches I stand to prooue it doth and so that they are in this also full Donatists But if they did not yet they shall bee found thus farre in Donatisme as to condemne some Churches of Christ My first reason shall be from
there is no Church Then he sheweth further that the offence is iust and God must needs punish that there is such wounding of weake consciences but in this they offend as hee saieth that they knowe not how to keepe anie measure in being offended or omitting that clemencie which the Lord requireth they giue themselues wholie vnto immoderate seueritie And because they think there is no Church where there is not sound puritie and integritie of life through the hatred of wickednes they depart away from the lawfull Church while they thinke they turne a side from the faction of the wicked Then he proceedeth in answering their obiections they alleage that the Church of Christ is holie he willeth them also to vnderstand by the parables in the Gospell that the good and the bad are mixed together They erie out that it is a thing intollerable that the contagious pestilence of vices dooth in such violent raging sort ouerspread all hee setteth before them the vices that were in the Churches of Corinth and Galatia They obiect that Paul dooth will we eate not with anie called a brother which is of an vngodlie life Yea here they crie out that if it be not lawfull to eate common bread with such how should it be lawfull to eate with them the bread of the Lord He answereth that it is a great reproach in deede if dogges and swine bee admitted to haue place among the children of God yea it is also much greater if the sacred bodie of Christ be prostituted vnto them And where the Churches are well ordred they doo not keepe in their bosome the notorious wicked nor admit all without difference to that holie banquet but the pastors are not alwaies diligent sometime they fauour more than they ought or bee more remisse And sometime they cannot but are letted from exercising that seueritie which they would Now when the Church ceaseth to doo her duetie herein it is not for euery priuate man saith he to separate himselfe euery godly man is indeede to keepe himselfe from the fellowship of sinne but it is one thing to eschewe the fellowship of sinne and another for hatred thereof to renounce the Communion of the Church Then hee answereth further that Saint Paul willeth euerie one to examine himselfe when hee commeth to eate of that bread and if it were a wicked thing to communicate with the vnworthie Paul would certainelie haue willed vs to looke about least there should bee some in the multitude by whose vncleannes we might be defiled These things he hath in the fourteenth and fifteenth sections in the sixteenth section hauing shewed that the chiefe ringleaders in such separation are led with pride he willeth the godlie to consider that in a great multitude there are manie which are truelie holie and innocent before the eyes of the Lord which are hid from their sight that of those which seeme diseased or infected there are manie which doo not please or flatter themselues in their vices but being eftsones awakened with an earnest feare of God labour to amend That they must not iudge of a man for one fact when the holiest men doo sometime fall most grieuouslie That the Ministrie of the word and the participation of the Sacraments haue more force to gather a Church than that by the fault of certaine wicked men that whole power may vanish or come to none effect Finallie let them consider that in esteeming a Church the iudgement of God is of more waight and certaintie than the iudgement of man In the eighteenth section hee setteth forth how the holie Prophets of God did not separate themselues in those horrible and lamentable desolations which they describe when most of the people and the Priestes themselues were openlie wicked Thus may wee see that Master Caluine condemning the Brownists so seuerelie by the Scriptures they must either reuoke Brownisme in this point that the bad pollute the good and therefore separation to be made which he termeth sacrilegious treacherie or else condemne him not onelie with the Church of Geneua which he taught but also all other Churches that imbrace his writings and acknowledge him for a noble instrument of God Furthermore let the Brownists shew any one assemblie at this day in the World in which there bee not open sinners admitted to the Lords table and which sinne in great sinnes as either in pride selfe loue ambition couetousnes idlenes hatred enuie contention backbiting lying and in such like They say all are polluted and fallen away from the couenant where any that openlie sinneth is admitted to the holie Communion How can they say then that they doo not condemne all Churches vnder heauen Finallie when in their writings they affirme that prescript forme of prayer imposed is Idolatrie a bondage breaking christian libertie a thing most detestable they doo so farre condemne all Churches in as much as there is no one which hath not prescript forme of Prayer imposed And the Brownist which hath published in Print a defence of the same alleageth the extreame curse against those that adde to Gods word Reuel 22. and saith they adde which make Lawes in the Church in matters of circumstance or things indifferent Which in deede all the Churches doo and therefore hee layeth that extreame curse vpon all the reformed Churches let no man therefore be so simple as to imagine that the Brownists doo condemne but the English Churches when their extreame seueritie in condemning reacheth ouer all Now to the third thing obiected wherein they may seeme to differ from the Donatists namely that the Donatists did holde that the Sacraments or the efficacie of them doth depend vpon the worthines of the minister but the Brownists are not of that minde I answere that in this great and ranck poynt of Donatisme I can find no difference at all betwéen them and the Brownists and let the wordes and meaning of both be scanned and it shal appeare manifestly that they hold the selfe same thing neither more nor lesse like euen brethren The Brownists affirme that we haue neither worde of God nor Sacraments in our Church But demaund of them doth the Sacrament or the efficacie thereof depend vpon the worthines of the minister They will aunswere it doth not but yet it can be no Sacrament of Christ vnles hee be a minister of Christ that doth deliuer it If it bee saide vnto them Iudas was a most wicked man and our Sauiour calleth him a diuell yet was he a minister of Christ for the time and the baptisme he administred as effectual as the baptisme of any other They will replie and say that was so because the sinne of Iudas was secret they were not polluted by his vncleannes because they did not know it But he that is an open sinner cannot be a minister of Christ and such as receiue the Sacrament at his hand knowing his wickednes cannot but be partakers of his sinne and polluted by the same This wil they say is
of it whether true or false that is to say because it is of that mā who though he be secretlie wicked it is sufficient for the receiuer that he is of good estimatiō not yet knowne not yet iudged not yet separate from the Church Booke 2. Chapt. 17. This blind shift had Cresconius alleaged to auoide those former absurdities and fell into as great that false fame doth baptize By which it appeareth that the whole matter of the Donatists opinion rested in this that an open wicked man onely did not or could not baptize Cresconius calleth vpon Augustine thus Responde quomodo baptizent quos damnauit ecclesia Answere how they can baptize whom the Church hath condemned Augustine doth answere Sic eos baptizare quomodo baptizant quos damnanit Deus antequam de illis quicquam iudicaret ecclesia That they baptize as those doo whom GOD hath cōdemned before the Church hath iudged any thing of them And seeing the secrete wicked man is condemned alreadie by Christ and the Church is subiect to Christ hée inferreth Non igitur debet ecclesia se Christo praeponere vt putet baptizare posse ab illo iudicatos à se autem iudicatos baptizare non posse cum ille semper veraciter iudicet ecclesiastici autem Iudices sicut homines plerunque falluntur Therefore the Church ought not to preferre her selfe before Christ as to thinke that such as are condemned by him can baptize but such as are condemned by her cannot baptize when he alwaies iudgeth truely where the ecclesiasticall Iudges as men are oftentimes deceiued Hereupon hee concludeth Baptizant ergo quantum attinet ad visibile ministerium boni mali inuisibiliter autem per eos baptizat cuius est visibile baptisma inuisibilis gratia Tingere ergo possunt boni mali abluere autem conscientiam non nisi ille qui semper est bonus Therefore both the good and the bad do baptize in as much as appertaineth to the visible ministrie but inuisiblie by them doth hee baptize whose is both the visible baptisme and also the inuisible grace Both the good then and the bad may dippe them in the water but to wash the cōscience there can none but he which is alwaies good Booke 2. Chapt. 21. Cresconius procéedeth demaunding what can be vttered more wicked than this Vt purificet aliū maculosus abluat sordidus emundet immundus det infidelis fidem criminosus faciat innocentem That he which is spotted should purifie another he that is foule should wash he that is vncleane should clense that an Infidell should giue faith that he which is criminous should make another innocent Booke 3. Chapt. 5. Augustine answereth Nec maculosus nec sordidus nec immundus nec infidelis nec criminosus est Christus qui dilexit ecclesiam seipsum tradidit pro ea mundans eam lauacro aquae in verbo faciens nos certos de bonis suis ne malis viciaremur alienis Christ is not spotted nor foule nor vncleane nor an infidell nor criminous which hath loued his Church and giuen himselfe for it cleansing it by the lauer of water through the word making vs sure of his good things that wee cannot be defiled with the euill of other men But now to come to a more cléere opening of this matter whereas Petilian had saide that euerie thing consisteth of an originall and roote and if any thing haue not an head it is nothing and the answere was made that Christ is the originall the roote and the head of him that is baptized and that he is accursed which putteth his trust in man Cresconius dooth replie as Augustine reporteth his words Hoc nos suademus volumus vt semper Christus det fidem Christus sit origo Christiani in Christo radicem Christianus infigat Christus Christiani sit caput Non quaerimus hominem in quo spem constituat accepturus sed quaerimus per quem hoc melius fiat Et quia sine ministro nec vos dicitis hominem posse baptizari quaerimus vtrúmne melius iniustus sit minister an iustus This also saieth the Donatists we will and perswade that Christ alwaies giueth faith Christ is the originall of a Christian in Christ the Christian must fixe his roote that Christ is the head of the Christian wee seeke not a man in whome he that is to be baptized may set his hope but we seeke by whome this may better be done And because you also say a man cannot be baptized without a minister we demaund whether is the better that the minister be vniust or that he be iust Booke 3. chapt 6 7 and 8. Augustine replieth Vbi respondeo ad hoc esse melius vt sit iustus minister quod infirmitas hominis cui sine exemplo laboriosum est difficile quod imperat Deus imitatione boni ministri ad vitam bonam facilius erigatur Vnde dicit Apostolus Paulus imitatores mei estote sicut ego Christi ad hominem vero baptizandum sanctificandum si tantòest melius quod accipitur quantò est melior per quem traditur tanta est in accipientibus baptismorum varietas quanta in ministris diuersitas meritorum Si enim quod sine controuersia creditur melior erat Paulus quam Apollo meliorem baptismum profectò dedit secundùm istam vestram vanam peruersamque sententiam Et si meliorem baptismum dedit profecto eis quos a se non baptizatos gratulatur inuidit Porro si interbonos ministros cum sit alius alio melior non est melior baptismus qui per meliorem datur nullo modo est malus qui etiam per malum datur quando idem baptismus datur ideo per ministros dispares Dei munus aequale est quia non illorum sed eius est Where I answere saieth Augustine That in this respect it is better that the minister be godly because the infirmitie of man to whome without an example it is labour some and difficult to doo that which God commaundeth may more easilie by the imitation of a good minister be raised vp and supported vnto good life Whereupon the Apostle Paul saieth Be yee followers of me as I am of Christ But for the Baptizing and sanctifying a man If it be so much better which is receiued as he is better by whome it is deliuered then there is as great varietie of Baptismes in the receiuers as there is diuersitie of worthines in the ministers For if Paul were better than Apollo which is beleeued without controuersie then hee verelie according to that your vaine and peruerse sentence gaue a better baptisme And if he deliuered a better baptisme doubtles he enuied those for whome hee is glad that they were not baptized by him Moreouer if it be so that among the good Ministers when one is better than another the baptisme is not better which is deliuered by the better it is by no
are the grosser if we may reason from that which they holde for if this were true which the Brownists affirme most stiffelie to bee true as the Donatists did before them that where an open wicked man dooth administer the Sacraments they be no Sacraments at all And if this also were as true which they both haue taken vpon them to iustifie the Donatists of olde saying they had no true Sacraments in the Churches and the Brownists that we haue none now It must needes be graunted that the Donatists did the better of both in baptising those which were not before baptized for he that is not baptized ought to be baptized And as no vncircumcised might eate of the Passeouer but was to be cut off from the people of GOD so no vnbaptized is to eate at the table of the Lord. How grosse are the Brownists which take it as a thing vndoubted that we haue no Sacraments and must needes thereupon be assured that they themselues were neuer baptized and so can be but as an heape of vncircumcised and yet seeke not to haue the Sacrament I would haue them answer this question whether a man that knoweth he was neuer baptized can be saued if he seeke not to bee baptized when hee may come by it Let no man imagine that I speake this as though the Brownists should doo well in rebaptizing for their former ground is false wicked and hereticall when they say it is no Sacrament that hath been administred by open offenders and that we haue no Sacraments But if that were true which they hold they should doo much better I will not say to rebaptize but to baptize such as were not before baptized Now where it is generallie obiected that the Donatists perhaps held diuers things which the Brownists doo not I answere that the Donatists indeede held somewhat which the Brownists doo not and the Brownists hold something which they did not For some of the Donatists did cast themselues downe from high places and into the fire accounting them holie Martyres that so died and others defended their doing For thus saith Gaudentius a Donatist Bishop in his Epistle An ista persecutio est quae tot milliq innocentum martyrum arctauit ad mortem Christiani enim secundum euangelium spiritu prompti sed carne infirmi à sacrilega contaminatione caminorum reperto compendio suas animas rapuerunt imitati presbyteri Raziae in Machabaeorum libris exemplum nec frustra timentes quisquis enim eorum manus inciderit non euasit sed quantum velint faciant quod certum est dei esse non possunt qui faciunt contra Deum Whether is that a persecution saith he which hath pent vp in a straight so many thousands of innocent martyres euen vnto death For Christians according to the Gospell being readie in spirit but weake in the flesh finding out a compendious way of their chimneyes haue deliuered their soules from the sacrilegious pollution imitating the example of olde Razia in the bookes of the Machabees not fearing without cause for whosoeuer falleth into their hands doth not escape but let them doo as much as they will that which is certaine they cannot be of God which doo against God booke 2. against Gaudent Chapt. 20. Augustine sheweth that Gaudentius meaning was not that they burnt themselues in their chimneys for feare of persecution vnto death for the ciuill Magistrate did not so persecute them hauing made a lawe against them for banishment but not for death as Augustine sheweth book 2. against Gaudentius chap. 11. Mitiora in vos constituit Imperator propter mansuetudinem Christianam exilium vobis voluit inferre non mortem The Emperour hath decreed more gentle thinges against yee through Christian mildnes he would lay banishment vppon ye and not death But his meaning is that such as fell into their hands were drawne to ioyne with them in worship which he calleth the sacriligious defilement And therfore doth abuse that place of the Gospell to colour such horrible murthering of themselues the spirit is readie but the flesh is weake for fearing least through weakenes they should yéeld to ioyne with the Churches they rather chose to kill themselues This the Brownists doo not but they condemne read prayer or praying after any prescript forme of words which the Donatists did not as may bee gathered by these words of Petilian Si pâ—ecem domino facitis aut funditis orationem nihil vobis penitus prodest Vestras enim debiles preces cruenta vestra conscientia vacuat quia dominus deus puram magis conscientiam quam preces exaudit domino Christe dicente non omnis qui dicit mihi domine domine intrabit in regnum coelorum sed is qui facit voluntatem patris mei qui est in coelis Voluntas dei vtique bona est nam ideo in sacra oratione sic petimus fiat voluntas tua sicut in coelo in terra If ye make prayer to the Lord saith the Donatist or powre foorth supplication it doth profite ye nothing at al for your bloudie conscience doth make your weake prayers of none effect because the Lord God doth rather heare a pure conscience than prayers the Lord Iesus saying that not euerie one that saith vnto me Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heauen but he that doth the will of my father which is in heauen The will of God is good for therefore in the holie prayer we pray thus thy will be done in earth as it is in heauen Thus we see that the Donatist denying that any praied but they sheweth with all that praying they vsed the Lords prayer But what doo I stand to seeke differences betwéen them which can hardlie be found whereas indeede whole bookes doo set foorth at large their agreement I will therefore proceede further to declare in particulars touching the power of Christian Princes in reforming the Church in establishing religion and in punishing heretickes schismatickes and disturbers and in compelling their subiects to the obedience of the trueth or to imbrace the true worship how iniuriouslie Browne hath dealt in his booke and the Brownists that haue written since I haue layd open in my former booke let their sayings be throughlie perused and now shall ye seee a little whether they be not the verie naturall children of the Donatists in this poynt also Thus writeth Gaudentius a Donatist Bishop Per opificem rerum omnium dominum Christum omnipotens deus frabricatum hominem vt deo similem libero demisit arbitrio Scriptum est enim fecit deus hominem dimisit eum in manu arbitrij sui Quid mihi nunc humano imperio eripitur quod largitus est deus Aduerte vir summe quanta in deum sacrilegia perpetrentur vt quod ille tribuit auferat humana praesumptio pro deo se inaniter iactet magna iniuria dei si ab hominibus defendatur Quid de deo aestimat qui eum violentia
compell men but rather inuite them Quodsi cogi per legem aliquem vel ad bona licuisser vosipsi miseri a nobis ad sidem purissimam cogi debuistis Sed absit absit a nostra conscientia vt ad nostram sidem aliquem compellamus If it were lawfull saith this Donatist that anie should by the Lawe be compelled yea euen vnto good things you wretches ought to bee compelled by vs to the most pure faith but farre be it farre be it from our conscience that we should compell anie vnto our faith chapt 83. Quid vobis est cum regibus seculi quos nunquam Christianit as nisi inuidos sensit What haue you to doo with the Kings of the Worlde which the Christianitie hath neuer felt but enuious against it Chapter 92. Compare now the doctrine of our Brownists and their sayings with these former of the Donatists and see if there bee anie difference They say Princes are not to make Lawes for Church matters Princes are not to reforme the Church by their authoritie Princes are not to compell their subiects to the true worship of God by penalties If Princes pleasures are to be attended where is the persecution wee speake of None of the godlie Kings of Iudea durit compell anie to the couenant The people of Christs Kingdome are spontanes such as come of their owne free accord c. It were too long and tedious to set foorth all the outcries of the Donatists their glorying in suffering persecutions for the trueth their accusations against the pastors of Christs Churche and the Princes while they sought to restraine their furie the one by Gods word the other by lawes that they persecuted and therefore could not be the true Church which as they say is persecuted but neuer persecuteth reade the epistle of Parmenian of Petilian and of Cresconius The Brownists are not behinde them an intch in this matter but crie out as fast of Antichristian persecutors boasting of their patience and sufferings calling themselues the persecuted remnant the poore afflicted c. Aug. answereth those Donatists at large I will recite but a little Cum phreneticus medicum vexet medicus phreneticum liget aut ambo inuicem persequuntur aut si persecutio quae malo sit non est non vtiq persequitur medicus phreneticum sed phreneticus medicum When the man that is in phrensie dooth vex the phisitian and the phisitian dooth binde him that is in phrensie either both doo persecute each other or else if that bee not a persecution which is done to the euill then verelie the phisitian dooth not persecute the phrantick or mad man but the phrantick or mad man dooth persecute the phisitian Against Cresconius Booke 4. Chapter 51. his application is that the penall Lawes of the Princes were as the bands of the Phisitian to binde the Phrensie and furious outrage of the Donatists And whereas they boasted of patience and woulde compell none He answereth that because they bee not able to resist so manie nations which were Catholike they gloried of patience that they compelled none to their part Hee then addeth Isto modo miluus cum pullos rapere territus non potuerit co lūbum se nominet After the same sort the Puttocke when he is fraid and can not snatch away the chickens may name himselfe a Doue For he doth demaund of them what they haue not done which they were able When Iulian the Apostata being Emperour enuying the peace of Christ shewed them fauour and graunted to them Churches what slaughters they committed Likewise he sheweth in many places what reuell their circumcellions made which in companies walking with clubbes and staues did spoile and beate such as light into their handes vsing moreouer a sauage crueltie in putting vineger and lime into mens eies when they had beaten them And verely what is it which men of excéeding intemperate heate will not doe if it bee once in their power against such as they shall iudge to bee but as vile Idolaters and persecutors of Christes truth The impatient heate of most Brownistes is not vnknowē but when the Kites for feare can not snatch vp the Chickens must professe the mekenes of Doues as to say weare Christes poore afflicted seruants we be meeke and patient we beare the crosse Where it is taught that priuate men are authorised to deale and furie aboundeth which things are among the Brownistes who is able to expresse the tragedies that would ensue if power were not wanting in thē the Princes may not stoppe their course and who shall then resist The Donatists abusing the scriptures in their plentifull allegations and finding that their grosenesse was detected much by the skill of artes found fault that any thing should be scanned by the rules of Logike The Brownistes are euen with them if not beyond In his first booke against Cresconius Chap. 14 Augustine reporteth the wordes of that Donatist thus Vestros Episcopos laudas quod nobiscum velut dialecticis nolint habere sermonem Thou doest commend your Bishoppes that they refuse to haue speech or conference with vs as being Logicians He answereth at large in shewing what Logicke is and the worthie and necessarie vse thereof in discussing matters of religion Browne in the preface of his booke which hee saith sheweth the life and manners of Christians calleth them sophisticall diuines which deale by the rules of Logicke The Brownistes with whome I deale charge the students of the Vniuersities as trained vp in vaine and curious Artes. And what other cause shall euer be shewed of so barbarous an errour but that they would not haue their matters tried by the rules which make manifest which is truth and which is falsehoode Thus haue I briefely laide open that the whole Donatisme is maintained by the Brownistes and therefore I haue rightly termed them the Donatistes of England An answere to Master Greenewood touching read prayer MAster Greenewood in the preface of his booke dooth shew that the reasons spread abroade in writing against read praier were his which I did not knowe before now and therefore bee taketh vpon him the defence of them He would seeme to haue found out such a deapth of spirituall wisdome touching the holie exercise of prayer and so reprooueth the grosenes of this age that wee must esteeme him for the aboundance of spirit as an other Montanus For whereas hee seemeth to charge this age onelie as grosse in this poynt in verie deede he accuseth all ages all Churches and all the learned teachers that haue beene since the Apostles so that in the gifts of the spirite he excelleth all Hee saieth hee could yet neuer see it set downe which is the true praier that onelie pleaseth God It is a strange thing hee hath neuer heard that whosoeuer asketh in faith whether it be with prescript forme or otherwise it is the onelie true praier that pleaseth God Hee saieth I haue flien vpon him with bitternesse of spirite and
the like because the aduerb thus doth signifie the like and not the same But hée rendreth a reason which is that we haue but the summe of their prophesies recorded vnto vs by the holie Ghost and not all the words Because we haue not all the words therefore haue we not the same in those that are set downe Did the holie Ghost vse this word Coh to giue vs to vnderstand that there is written but an abridgement or summe of matters and not the same words that they were vttered in but some such like Againe did the holie Ghost recorde them are they not all his words which are written in the summe of the prophesies set downe Shall we beléeue this man I doo beléeue him in this that he saith the holie Ghost did record them for therein he speaketh the trueth But when he saith that thus saith the Lord is not these same words saith the Lord but the like because thus is an aduerb of likenes it is a vile saying Is not the holie Ghost the Lord If hée had spoken those things before in moe words and now recordeth them in fewer saying thus saith the Lord doth not he speake these fewer words which are written as well as those moe wordes which were vttered Are they not then thus saith the Lord euen the verie same words which the Lord speaketh and not like If ye make many such expositions of words ye may leade me whether ye will There is then another reason rendred to prooue that the Priests were not tied vnto those wordes in blessing the people namely that in prayer they are blessed in the Psalmes and in the Chronicles with many other words And Eli blessed Hanna in other words It is not the question whether at any time the people might bee blessed in other words in fewer or in moe but whether the Priests had not that forme prescribed to vtter in blessing the whole assemblie and whether it were Idolatrie to vse those prescript phrases of wordes As likewise it is not maintained that when our Sauiour saith say thus that wee may not pray in other words or expresse our petitions more particularlie but that we may vse those words and sentences as most excellent petitions Against this Master Greenwood bringeth nothing in his words that followe For Master Caluine neuer held it vnlawful to pray in that forme of words though he teach truelie that men are not so tied vnto it that they may vse none other And therefore it standeth firme and sure that the forme of words in the Lords Prayer is to bee lawfullie vsed praying In the next part Master Greenwood is in a great heate and maketh an outcrie to call men to the beholding of an iniurie which I as he saith as a godles man haue done him Here saith he I must call all men that reade this fruitles discourse to be witnesse c. Indeede ye may well call it a fruitles discourse which ye call men that reade to beare witnesse with ye and let the reader iudge by your exposition of Coh whether it be not worse than fruitlesse which ye spread among the ignorant sort which are readie to sucke in such filthie dregges The abuse of my tongue to the defacing of Gods trueth is that I sayd he calleth all men Idolaters And to make the matter cléere that he spake not the words but I my selfe he maketh a briefe repetition how we fell into that matter But before we procéede any further I pray ye tell me what is the reason that I hauing set downe your whole discourse touching this poynt so that you cannot denie but that I haue also set it downe truely you forsake that and set downe by péece meale but some of your words and reason from them If I had ment in a godles manner wilfully to peruert your words would I haue deliuered them whole and together in print It seemeth ye haue some hope that some men will reade your booke which will not compare it with mine or which being carried with blind heate cannot Now I craue no more of the reader but to marke the whole speach which you deliuered and mine answere to it and to iudge indifferently If Master Greenwoods words bee not such as must needes include that which I haue collected let me beare the blame for that matter which is one of the least He saith I haue an euasion to auoide this foyle because I sayd I tooke it we reasoned about such grosse Idolatrie as a Church is to bee condemned and forsaken for which is defiled therewith He saith he neuer reasoned to that end in this whole discourse And I say then he must go from his owne words which affirme that read prayer offered vp to GOD as a sacrifice is Idolatrie that to reade the prayer while one praieth is a chaunging the worke of the spirit into an Idoll a bondage and breaking of Christian libertie a thing most detestable a deuice of Antichrist Let all men iudge by these speaches what manner of Idolatrie was in question betweene vs. Master Greenwood as if he had wonne the field will needs put me to my raunsome and asketh what mends I will make him for this slandering I answer that as your victorie is but in a dreame so my raunsome must be therafter If I could sée I had done ye wrong I would be sorie Ye will haue no man free from such foule Idolatrie but yet no Idolaters No Church is free ye confesse from all spot vpon earth Hereupon ye growe againe into a newe heate and charge me out of one mouth to giue contrarie sentence because I call ye Donatists Why man are ye ignorant of this that the Donatists did confesse all men to bee sinners and yet the arguments by which they would maintaine their schisme could not bee strong vnlesse they would maintaine a perfection and some of their reasons though they ment not so reached so farre And so is it with you Brownists If one should followe ye in all the grosse absurdities which will followe from your exposition of Coh thus saith the Lord could you haue any way but to protest ye did meane no such thing Wee may not looke what men protest they hold but what doth followe of their reasons and then ye shall see that such as be in schisme and heresie are with the blasts of their swelling pride tossed and hurled vpon contrarie Rockes Now whereas I sayd the confession of the Brownists that there is no Church in earth without spottes of Idolatrie doth ouerthrowe the reasons which they bring to condemne the Church of England Because they cannot argue thus this is a fault it is Idolatrie therefore this or that assemblie which is spotted is no true Church But they must prooue the Idolatrie to bee such as destroyeth the faith c. Master Greenwood would beare men in hand that I reason as simplie as to say if there bée no true Church in earth without spots then the Church of
Rome is the true Church for that hath many spots I answere that we doo not take it that the spots doo make it a true Church but because there bee onely spottes and not fundamentall errors The foolish cauill here is that I assume that which I should prooue Doo I not prooue it by answering the vile and shameles slaunders of yours when ye affirme euerie spot in our Churches to be blasphemies and heresies and abominations and Egyptian sores You must prooue these your slaunders true and I will cease Now we come to the arguments which were set down at the first No Apocrypha is to be brought into the publike assemblies all read prayer is Apocripha Here you say I haue nothing to vtter and yet oppose against both proposicions to royle the doctrine with my feete least others should drink of it I sayd your proposition is false because the exposition of the scriptures by the preacher and the prayers of the preacher are not canonicall which your proposition doth exclude Your replie is that the Sermons and prayers of of the Preacher be the liuely voyce of Gods owne graces which ye mention in your proposition and so neither Canonicall nor Apocripha and so not excluded Touching the Paraphrase vpon the Psalmes in meeter I holde not Canonicall in some respects If you banish all writings that be not Canonicall then ye banish then Your answere is that it I will affirme them to be Apocrypha as ye say I cannot but doe you will prooue they are not to be brought into the publike assemblies Your proofes doe follow First no mans writings are giuen by the testimonie of Gods spirit whome alone we are to heare No mans writings are without errors and imperfections The Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets If we might bring in mens writings then al mens writings which are agreeable to Gods word No mans writings carie that maiestie that the pen of the holy ghost No mans writings are authentike confirmed by signes and wonders The scripture is all sufficient al men must walk by that one rule To think there were not rules enough prescribed by the Lorde for his house is blasphemous and papisticall Then ye say the gifts to prophesie are not Apocryphall and so ye conclude your proposition that onely Gods word and the liuely graces of his holy spirite are to be offered vp vnto him in the publike assemblies Then touching your assumption I sayd I see not how our speech to God should be called Apocrypha Ye replie y t it answereth not you which do not holde an other mans writing to be our speech vnto God Finally because I said that Apocrypha is that which is not Gods vndoubted worde vnto vs yee say I haue ouerthrowen my selfe and cast out all read prayer in as much as I deny them to be Canonicall And so affirming that I haue not in both writings made one direct answer to this most firme proposition Onely the Canonicall scriptures and liuely voice of Gods own graces are to be brought into the publike assemblies for doctrine and prayers But mens writings are neither Canonicall nor the liuely voice of Gods owne graces Now master Greenwood hauing thus played the man in erecting as he supposeth so mighty a piller that cannot be shaken could content himself to go no further I might end here saith hee with this vaine man considering the whole matter is proued against him And all that solloweth but repetitions of the same cauills but that I must cleare my selfe of his vnconcionable slaunders Hee â—â—â—â—mphing thus fully what shall I doe now I aunswere first that hee is much deceiued and would deceiue others as it is written The deceiuers shall wax worse and worse deceiuing and being deceiued For like as one that among many Apples doth hide and sell one Crab so he among many true principles doth bring in one false conclusion which deceiueth his Schollers For if he did reason thus wee must heare onely the voice of Gods spirite therefore all things in the Church are to be tried by the voice of the spirit No mans writings are without errors and imperfections therefore meÌ„ cannot ground vpon them any further than they be consonant to the Canonicall scriptures The Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets therfore our faith is to rest no further vpon the sayings and writings of men than they be prooued by the doctrine of the Apostles Prophets he should conclude a truth which is vnanswerable But now where master Greenwoods conclusioÌ„ is after this sorte therefore nothing but the Canonicall scriptures and the liuely voice of Gods graces is to bee brought into the publike assemblies he concludeth falsely as shall appeare For if nothing but the perfect rule it selfe is to bee brought into the Church If nothing done by man which hath errors in it is to haue place in the assemblies If nothing but eyther such or that which is the liuely voyce of Gods owne graces is to be vttered in the congregation then must bee tast foorth not onely al written prayers but also y e whole bible vnles it be in y e Hebrew Greeke with the Sermons and praiers of the Pastors For there is no translation of the Bible without errors and the bookes are thus farre mans writing respecting onely the translation And furthermore we decide not controuersies by any translation of the Bible but by the authentike copies of the Hebrew and Greek in one of which the olde testament is set downe by the Prophets in the other the new testameÌ„t by the Apostles So that your conclusion doth not shut out onely the Psalmes in méeter but the whole scriptures vnles you will be so bolde as to say that translations be without errors and so the perfect rule And now touching the second part will Master Greenwood bee so vnwise as to affirme that the errours in the Sermons and in the prayers of the Pastors bee the liuely voyce of Gods owne graces He will assuredly denie it for the graces of GOD all simple men know bring not foorth errors Then let him marke his conclusion no mens writings are without errours and imperfections therefore no mens writings are to be brought into the publike assemblie is not this conclusion as strong no translations of the Bible no Psalmes in meeter no Sermons nor Prayers of the Pastors are without errors and imperfections therfore none of these are to be brought into the publike assemblies Is there any so voide of sense that can not tast howe sower this Crabbe is which Maister Greenewood conueieth in among so many sweete Apples But he replieth further to confirme his matter by argument thus if anie mens writings may bee brought into the publike assemblies then al mens writings which are thought to be agreeable to Gods word may be brought in To prooue the consequence of this proposition he saith If God commaunde any to be brought in as being agreeable
heretofore when such prescript formes were alleadged prooue that those wordes were to be saide ouer to God but now being conuinced and confessing that some Psalmes were song to God and for feare least bidding mee prooue againe that the prescript forme was followed when they spake to GOD I should againe charge ye openly to denie the singing of Psalmes to God which I haue shewed yee doe couertly ye seeke another shift and say your Minor proposition which is that I stand to disprooue speaketh of the reading for praying and not of the forme of prayer This is poore stuffe seeing we reason about prescript forme and reading the same praying I do not say that the reading it selfe is praying but I haue prooued that they went together and whether there were cōmandement to followe the prescript formes or not in the blessing for the Priestes to vse In the prayer prescribed for the people to say at the offring the first fruites and in some of the Psalmes whether it be not also lawful to say the Lords prayer praying let wise men iudge Nowe where as I saide the Brownistes doe condemne all Churches by these three arguments against read prayers Maister Greenewood at this is in no small heate as his speech doth shewe for if hee coulde dippe his words tenne times deeper in gall it appeareth hee woulde not spare I trust saith he your madnesse will appeare vnto all men the poyson of Aspes is vnder your tongue But Maister Greenewood If I haue saide the truth which is iustifiable by your owne speeches your sober minde is not to bee boasted off And if your sentence include all Churches what milke and honie doth flow from vnder your lippes Heere is much a doe this man layeth about him as if he were halfe madde but that he is blindfolde I could not escape some sounde blowes Here he hath vp the begger with his clappe dish and the Priest with his Masse booke canuesing ouer the Paternoster for their bellie Here he saith I breath out my accustomed lies slaunders and raylings calling them Brownists and Donatists here he detesteth Donatus his heresies Browne and the Brownists he saith are ours hee willeth mee to remember who is the Father of such vntruthes when I say they condemne al reformed Churches but because my conscience as hee saith did witnesse I had wrongfullie charged him and for him all true Christians I bring it in by necessarie consequence Now if the heate be any thing past heare a little what I saye shewe that I haue any way slaundred ye or rayled vpon yee in that I haue termed you Brownists and Donatists and let mee haue open shame among all men I haue affirmed that the very pith of all your matter is from Maister Brownes bookes conuince mée therein if yee can I haue now published that Brownisme and Donatisme are all one let any Brownist in the land confute me The theefe will not abide to be so called but will say I defie all theeues doth that cleare him when he liueth by theeuerie what are you the better to say I detest the heresies of Donatus and yet holde all that he helde and know not what ye say nor what the heresies of Donatus were more then doth a post shew openly that ye renounce those thinges I haue noted to bée the furies of the Donatists then yee may crie out that ye are slaundred And now for condemning al Churches will ye denie that which is concluded by necessarie consequence from your words Is that against conscience which is brought in by necessarie consequence Ye would seeme to make light of it in this respect that a multitude is not to bee followed to doo euill when ye condemne all Churches but yet it doth sting ye so neere that by no meanes ye can abide to heare of it Thus I did reason and thus I reason still without any witnesse of conscience against me You affirme prescript formes of prayer brought into the publike assemblies to bée the changing the worke of the spirit into an Idoll a tradition breaking Christian libertie and therefore a thing most detestable a dead letter which doth quench the spirit but all reformed Churches haue prescript forme of prayer imposed therefore yee condemne all Churches I am glad your booke may bee seene of all men that they may iudge the soundnes of that answere by which ye would cleere your selfe Ye cannot goe from your first words they be spread in the hands of so many but ye should shame your selfe Ye replie therefore againe that the true Churches might erre in this and yet remaine Churches of God This is strange that ignorance should excuse men that worship an Idoll in stead of God that take away the Christian libertie from the consciences of men and doo that which is most detestable What doo the Papists more than these or what can they bee charged withall which is worse than that which is most detestable And haue ye not set downe now in this your booke in replying vpon the second Argument that all our Ministers must leaue reading their stinted prayers or else stand vnder Gods wrath and all that pray with them How are the Ministers and people of other Churches priuiledged from standing vnder Gods wrath hauing read prayers imposed leiturgies and as you terme them stinted prayers or tell me are they the Churches of God that stand vnder his wrath Now remember who is the father of lyes Well your meaning was not to condemne the Churches nor to meddle with them Why then doo ye giue such sentence of condemnation which reacheth vnto them Tel me but this is there any Brownist which is a disciple and giueth credite vnto ye in this matter that read prayer is most detestable and that such as ioyne in it stand vnder Gods wrath which yet durst ioyne himselfe or might ioyne himselfe vnto any assemblie in the world euen the most reformed Tell me either you or any other chiefe Brownist will say they may pray with any assembly where they follow a prescript forme If ye dare not say this I meane that ye would counsell men to ioyne with a Church that hath read prayer but say they must reprooue and condemne it and if it were not redressed forsake them then bee also ashamed so furiouslie to crie out vpon me which speake nothing herein that I say ye condemne all churches but that which all indifferent men must néedes sée your owne wordes and doctrine doe vpholde As for your bitter accusations vpon no shewe I leaue them and whereas ye require that if I haue any sparkle of grace I would procure that ye might decide the trueth with other Churches I answere that if ye had any sparke of sober wisdome ye could not with such condition lay that vpon me which ye knowe not howe vnable I am to performe You say you might iustly be called an Anabaptist if you shoulde reason thus Imposing of mens writings to be read for praying is an heinous
sinne therefore they that vse it are no Church Haue ye said no more but that it is an hainous sinne Haue you forgotten all your former sayings of Idolatrie bondage breaking Christian libertie most detestable standing vnder Gods wrath I hold him no Anabaptist nor Donatist which from such spéeches concludeth no true Church For I neuer heard that the true Church doth stand vnder Gods wrath The next wordes are sore Abaddon is the father of such Prophets saith Maister Greenewood because I say the Brownists maintaine such a fréedome as that will haue nothing imposed by commaundement I pray ye tell me whether you be one of those which set out the brief summe of the profession And when I had written against it I would knowe if ye were one that made the defence or approoued the same Did yee not approoue of the answers that goe vnder the name of Henrie Barrow Imposed is put for an argument by it selfe in those writings and so noted with a figure Could the very word imposed be an argument by it selfe if any imposing by commaundement bee lawfull in Gods worship If the ciuill Magistrates haue power but to reuiew the lawes of Christ and to mooue men or stirre them vp to the more diligent keeping of the same may they then impose by commaundement And as you speake here of that which is not onely receiued but also by commaundement as though there were great waight in the words by commaundement I pray ye tell me then what force ye repose in the words imposed and by commaundement when ye oppose them against Christian freedome Tell me also whether yee denie not that any Canons and constitutions made in Synods in matters variable are to be imposed by commandement If they be what is the reason that you Brownists when yee crie out against Church gouernment as it is in England speake in generall against Canons And a little after in this your booke ye denie all power of making lawes in things indifferent terming it an adding to Gods word and alleaging against it the extreame curse of God I graunt the Churches power is limitted by the word in making such lawes and so is the power of Princes There hath béen much sayd alreadie touching the Lords Praier and other prescript formes in the Scriptures but yet here come in newe reasons if I may so call them which are voide of reason Houtos is the same that the Hebrew Coh after this manner I answere that this hath béen dealt in before where ye must vnsay somewhat againe or else the words of the Scripture now written are not the words of the Lord but the like Further because Christ saith when ye pray if he willed we should say ouer y e words then should we euer when we pray say them To this I answere that respecting the rules for matters when ye pray when is as much as to say whensoeuer ye pray because we may not depart from those matters conteined in the general petitions But if we respect withall the prescript forme of words there is a double consideration to be had for in them selues they bee most excellent perfect and full and so brieflie doo containe the whole summe and substance of all thinges which we ought to craue of God as that nothing is wanting But our mind is not able so largelie or vnto such depth at one instant to spread or extend it selfe in desire as to bee mindfull of euery particular therein conteined And also we are more mooued as seuerall matters of néede doo presse vs to craue them particularlie Hereupon it doth followe that as on the one part it were agreat iniurie and hindrance that any man should binde vs when any particular néede vrgeth to begge reliefe onelie in the generall forme which includeth many things and not suffer vs to expresse the very particulars and singulars so on the other part to binde vs alwaies in such sort to the seuerall particulars that we may not at all vse the generals is very absurd and a disgrace to those most excellent petitions For by this it must needes followe that I may not say Let thy Kingdome come or forgiue vs our trespasses as we forgiue them that trespas against vs vntill the Brownists disprooue this he is fully conuict For if I may vse one petition of the generall heads when I pray I may vse anie one if any one then all The next argument which is brought is to this effect that if we be cōmaunded to say those words then should we sin in vsing any other forme for those being in y e best forme we are bound alwaies to bring the best sacrifice we haue or els we are accursed This reason I haue fully answered in that which went before for I haue shewed in what respect it is the most excellent absolute forme the best and can by no meanes without great absurditie yea wicked impietie be reiected withall what is necessarie and fit for vs. Now for conclusion let the Reader iudge whether I haue more need to leaue of as he saith my popish dreames or he his spirituall fantasies I am farre from maintaining that our Sauiour or his Apostles did stint or bynde men vnto certaine wordes which of necessitie they must vse and none other but this is the thing which the Brownistes must ioyne issue in with me whether I may not pray saying let thy kingdome come or if I may so vse the prescript forme of wordes in one petition whether I may not in any and so in all And heere let the Reader obserue that Maister Greenewood crying out for freedome complayning of a tradition that bringeth our libertie into bondage hee doth him selfe take away freedome and woulde lay a bondage vpon men and vpon the Churches For it is to lay a yoake of bondage when men will restraine that which God hath left free to bee vsed as shal be most conuenient and profitable for edification as to follow a prescript forme or to reade praying Among the Iewes in the time of the Law God tied them to the Temple and vnto certaine set howers for the Euening and Morning sacrifice but in this we are set free in the Gospell For I may lawfullie goe to the Temple to heare the word and to be partaker of the Sacraments with the assemblie and I may lawfullie frequent other places where the publike worship is The Churches may appoint the same howres for there meetings that were vnder the law if it be conuenient and they may appoint other if it shal be more fitte hee that in these shall take away the freedome which is giuen to the Churches doth lay a yoake of bondage In like case prescript forme of prayer to vse praying being an helpe to the weake and a thing sanctified of God and left free to the Church as neede shall require he that denieth that free vse doth lay a yoake of bondage And so I charge Maister Greenewood here to doe In the next place
horrible things in his blinde furie doth he charge all Churches withall For first when he saith that for matters of order and circumstance there can be no other lawes made of them thā Christ hath made he seeth not the difference betweene the giuing generall rules of charitie of come liues and order which serue for edification that are to be followed in making lawes touching matters in themselues merely indifferent and the very particular lawes thēselues that are so to be made Thē if it be true which he saith the matters of order and circumstance are not variable but stand fixed as inuiolable lawes of Christ in the particulars to be obserued which is false seeing these circumstances are no part of Gods worship As Paul saith The Kingdome of God is not meate and drinke c. but as handmaids to attend vpon it and to adorne it and so are vsed and not vsed as occasion serueth I haue shewed this before in some particulars as that the assemblies are in time of peace gathered in temples and fixed places and open in time of persecution and tumult in the fields in woods and secret places which they change and at the commandement of the pastors and gouernours the wise reader may consider the like not onelie for kneeling and such like but in many other And we sée that the Apostles themselues did decree some things for the time which afterward were to bee altered when the occasion was taken away as namelie to auoide giuing offence to y e weak Iewes which stuck in the ceremonies of the lawe they made this decree Act. 15. That the gentiles should absteine from blood and from strangled We doo not now obserue this decree of the Apostles neither are we to obserue it séeing the occasion is remooued for which it was made Furthermore if there be no lawes to be made in matters of circumstance how shal the flockes knowe what to follow or to obserue where the pastors shall dissent and varie in iudgement Sall not some be rent into one part and some into another Now when hee saith this is to pleade for vnwritten verities to make the Lawe of God vnsufficient to adde to the word alleaging those Scriptures which shew how cursed a thing that is hee dooth but ignorantlie abuse those Scriptures and wickedlie seduce the simple sorte of men For those Scriptures are against the adding of humaine precepts and lawes to be kept as parts of Gods worship to binde the conscience to séeke righteousnes and the forgiuenes of sinnes or the merite of eternall life in them or against such rules of gouernement as God hath set to bee perpetuall This is against the perfection of the word against Christian libertie and in the chiefe things which concerne Gods worship against the ground and foundation of our faith and so a thing most detestable and accursed which our sauiour also and his Apostles refused iustlie to obserue with the blinde Pharisies But now where the Brownist hath his eyes so daseled with that pillar of fire which hee saieth they haue before them that he cannot perceiue that to make and constitute lawes in matters of circumstance for comelines and order according to the generall rules of the Scripture and not to binde the conscience is no adding to the word nor mixing Gods worship with mans inuentions he is much to be pittied And doubtles before this pillar of fire bee remooued which is not the heauenlie light of Gods spirite but a frantick presumption by which the diuell dooth delude men and blinde them with their swelling he shall neuer see well Some will say if these constitutions be not to binde the conscience of men why are men forced to keepe them Why should the discipline and censures of the Church driue men thereunto In déede this is that which the freedome of the Brownists can at no hand indure To answer this the reader must consider what is the binding of the conscience It is not to say simplie yee must for conscience sake doo it or yee are bounde for conscience sake to doo it for then all the humaine constitutions and lawes of princes may be saide to binde the conscience because Saint Paul willeth to obey them for conscience Rom. 13. But by binding the conscience is meant that such lawes are laid vpon the conscience to bee obserued as part of the worship of God when men are punished for not keeping them as contemning Gods worship then is the Christian libertie withstoode But when y e discipline censures of the Church doo compel men to obserue the lawes which in matters of comlines and order are made according to the rules of the Apostle they are not punished for dooing or not doing the things themselues but that by dooing that which is forbidden or refusing to doo that which is commaunded they disturb the peace bréede diuisions and offence disobey where they are commanded obedience these bee sinnes and for these men are to be punished This is where the orders be not against the word of God but fitte for edification And now to conclude about this matter all the Churches of God vnder heauen doe make such lawes such Canons and constitutions in matters of circumstance and by their discipline compell both Ministers and people to obey the same The Brownist alleageth against this not only the sentences Prouerbs 30. vers 5. 6 and Deut. 4. vers 12. 32. but also Reuela 22. vers 18. 19. Where the Lorde threatneth that he that shall adde to the words of that Prophesie he will put vpon him the Plagues written in that booke Tell me now Maister Greenewood doe ye yet condemne all Churches Ye do affirme that they which make anie lawes doe adde to the worde of God and alleage against them that God will put vpon them the plagues written in that booke which is a denouncing of the extreame wrath of God for there is the lake of fire set foorth If yee were not quite beside your selfe how could you thus hurle your dartes of extreame condemnation and strike all churches and yet when I tell yee of it crie out that I am a liing Prophet and will me to remember who is the father of vntrueths But least I may seeme to father that vpon the Churches which is farre from them I wil note somewhat out of the harmonie of confessions Section 17. The latter Heluetian confession saith Quod in Ecclesijs dispares inueniuntur ritus nemo Ecclesias existimet ex eo esse dissidentes That there are vnlike rites or ceremonies found in the Churches let no man iudge hereby that the Churches dissent And the confession of Bohemia hath Quare illi tantum ritus illaeque ceremoniae bonae seruari debent quae in populo Christiano vnicam veram fidem sincerúmque cultum Dei concordium charitatem veram atque Christianam se◠religiosam pacem aedificant Siue igitur ab episcopis siue a consilijs Ecclesiasticis aut à quibuscumque aucthoribus
alijs extiterint aut introductae sint de eo simpliciores laborare non debent neque hoc mouâ—ri aut perturbari sed quia bonae sunt ijs ad bonum vti Wherefore those rites and those good ceremonies ought onelie to bee kept which among the people of Christ doo edifie the onelie and true faith and the sincere worship of God concord charitie and the true and Christian or religious peace Therefore whether they bee exstant or brought in by the Bishops or by the Counsels Ecclesiasticall or by other authors whatsoeuer the simpler sort are not to trouble themselues about that neither with this to bee mooued or disquieted but because they bee good to vse them vnto that which is good And a little after Et quanquam nostri non omnes ritus aequè seruant cum alijs Ecclesijs id quod fieri non potest non est necesse fieri vt omnibus in locis Christianorum conuentuum vnae eadem ceremoniae vsurpentur non tamen vlli bonae piae constitutioni repugnant seseuè opponunt neque ita animati sunt vt ceremoniarum causa dissidia vlla commouere velint etiamsi aliquae non admodum necessariae esse iudicarentur modò Deo cultui atque gloriae huius non reperiantur contrariae quae veram in Iesum Christum fidem quae sola iustitiam conciliat non diminuant That is to say And although our men do not equallie obserue all rites with other Churches a thing which both cannot bee done and is not necessarie to bee done that in all places of the christian assemblies one and the same ceremonies should bee vsed yet they doo not repugne anie good constitution or oppose themselues neither are they so minded as that for the cause of ceremonies they will moue anie dissentions although some might be iudged to be not altogether necessarie so that they be not founde contrarie to God to his worship and glorie and which diminish not the true faith in Iesus Christ which onelie dooth iustifie Againe a little after Docentur hoc agnoscere homines traditiones humanas non complecti legem perpetuam immutabilem sed quemadmodum iustis de causis ab â—â—minibus instituuntur ita etiam iustis grauibus de causis re ita postulante violari abrogari atque mutari sine vllo peccato posse That is Men are taught also to acknowledge this that humane traditions doo not conteine a perpetuall lawe and vnchangeable but as for iust causes they are ordeined by meÌ„ so also for iust waightie causes the matter so requiring they may be violated abrogated and changed without offending The Augustine coÌ„fession Quaerat igitur aliquis an vitam hanc hominuÌ„ sine ordine sine ritibus esse velimus nequaquaÌ„ sed docemus pastores veros Ecclesiarum posse in Ecclesijs suis publicos ritus instituere That is Some maÌ„ theÌ„ may demand whether we would haue this life of men to be without order without ceremonies In no wise But we teach that the true pastors of the churches may in their churches ordeine publique rites or ceremonies I might set downe to the same effect out of the confessions of the other reformed Churches but I will omit it as not necessarie and onely note a fewe things out of Master Beza his Epistles After he hath set downe Epist 24. that things indifferent are so called not that men may without exception doo or leaue vndone as often as they lust and as it shall please them and not sinne but that they are so called because a man may vse and not vse them well and hee may vse them and not vse them euill And moreouer that things indifferent by themselues or otherwise doo after a sort change their nature when by some lawfull commaundement they are either commaunded or forbidden And further that the vse of them is generallie restrained by the lawe of charitie and speciallie or more particularlie by constitution either politicke or ecclesiasticall He addeth Etsi enim conscientias propriè solus deus ligat tamen quatenus vel Magistratus qui dei minister est iudicat interesse reipublicae vt quippiam alioqui per se licitum non fiat vel ecclesia ordinis decori adeóque aedificationis rationem habens leges aliquas de rebus medijs ritè condit eiusmodi leges pijs omnino sunt obseruande eatenus conscientias ligant vt nemo sciens prudens rebellandi animo possit absque peccato vel facere quae ita prohibentur vel â—mittere quae sic prâ—cipiuntur That is to say For although properlie God alone doth bind the consciences yet so farre as either the Magistrate which is the minister of God doth iudge it profitable for the Common-wealth that something should not be done which otherwise of it self is lawful or the Church hauing regard of order and comelines so of edification doth rightlie make some lawes in matters indifferent such lawes are many wise to bee obserued of the godlie and do so farre bind the conscience that no man wittinglie and willinglie with a mind to rebel can without sinne either doo the things which are so forbidden or leaue vndone things so commanded What haue I said more than the Churches do hold master Beza and all the most noble Instruments of GOD in these last daies if I should stand to shewe it Then ye may see when Master Greenwood doth so raginglie take on and strike he knowes not whom such furie is not fit for disputation in the Church Let not the reader here suppose that I goe about to maintaine that the prayer of any is pleasing to God which come with customarie words of course without feeling their wants or that I should hold that a set forme of prayer is of men to bee vttered without meditation and preparation as many doo of an idle custome as if the verie saying were a great seruice to God Nor yet doo I hold that all men alike stand in néede of prescript forme in their priuate praiers or that the feruencie of praier is not often times more vehement in vttering any request in priuate prayer without prescript forme than with it if a man be able I say further A man is to cal vpoÌ„ God not only as his néed in any particular shal vrge him euen at al times but he is also to stir vp himselfe and to prepare himselfe to begge moe things than bee in his present feeling and memorie which prescript formes are an help to direct him vnto And when a man commeth to the publike assemblies to pray the case is somewhat differing from making his priuate requests for there he commeth not to craue those things alone which hee feeleth present neede of or which hee is mooued withall but to make common requests with the whole congregation in all things that they are to craue To this he must now frame himselfe Among fiue or sixe hundred the particular wants or
I haue in this point by denying that there bee swarued from the sacred word of God from the iudgement of the holie Churches and writings of the most worthy noble instruments which God hath at all times giuen to be the guides and lights in the same And if it can be prooued that I haue gone awrie from the trueth but an heire breadth I will reuoke it for trueth is to bee bowed vnto and reuerenced wheresoeuer shee sheweth her sweete face of all that looke to haue any part in her Marke also their writings as they shall come foorth and see wherein they can conuince me of any error falsehood or corruption touching this one forenamed question vnto which they are to be held seeing we set all other controuersies aside Then touching the second sorte which finde fault about handling the matter as if that I should mitigate or make lighter the faults of our Churches at least in this that I do not reprehend them To this I answer first that vnles it can bee shewed that our Church is guilty in some of those crimes which I stand to clere it in I see no reason why I shoulde bee charged to make things lighter which I medle not withall further than in shewing that they be not fundamentall Secondlie I intreate al men to consider that I stand to defend a Church and not the infirmities or offences of a Church in which as there be many bad mēbers so the best are traile If a godlie man because of some apparant sinnes should be accused to be an Atheist an infidell a traitor or a most vile and filthie wretch might not he clere himselfe of such horrible crimes but it must be saide he dooth mittigate his owne infirmities or make them lighter Thirdlie I doo request them to consider the state of our people how speedelie verie manie are carried into great euils and dangers though not all in the same degree I am of this minde that where any thing is amisse in Gods Church it is the part and duetie of the faithfull Ministers of Christ all dutifull reuerence and submission being obserued towards Magistrates publique authoritie peaciblie to seeke redresse of the same with godlie and charitable reprehension I doo also holde that euery christian man is wiselie and soberly with the like deuties of reuerence submission and peaceable behauiour obserued to seeke to haue his conscience informed in all matters which may any way concerne himselfe But we see how farre some haue swarued and doo swarue from this For the rule of charitie and christian dueties being neglected the vttet disgrace and contempt of men is sought and that on either part The warre is made as deadlie as if the grounds of christianitie were in question while some passing the bounds of modestie others doo replie against them after the same manner Our Sauiour saith Satan dooth not cast foorth Satan and shall we thinke then that sinne shall cast foorth sinne Such as condemne and abhorre Schisme and errors and inordinate dealing must bee burthened and reproached with the same notwithstanding which is iniurious And what is in the mouthes of many against this but that the Papists then may as well be excused which condemne Master Luther and other as the fathers of heretiks because swarmes of Anabaptists did followe immediatelie vpon their preaching the Gospel When shall we then here come to an end There wil bee contention in the Church and humaine frailtie hath shewed it selfe this way euen among the holie teachers of old to the sharp reprehension and in manner reproaching one of another as Master Beza noteth in the Epistle of his Booke against Erastus but godlie men when they haue somewhat gone awrie seek to amend their fault by subduing their passions Now looke also vpon the people where wee may see verie many who not regarding the chiefe christian vertues godlie dueties as namelie to be meek to be patient to be lowlie to be full of loue and mercie to deale vprightlie and iustly to guide their families in the feare of God with wholsome instructions and to stand fast in the calling in which God hath set them giue thēselues wholy to this euen as if it were the summe and pith of religion namelie to argue and talke continuallie against matters in the Church against Bishops and Ministers and one against another on both sides Some are proceeded to this that they will come to the assemblies to heare the Sermons and praiers of the Preacher but not to the praiers of the booke which I take to be a more grieuous sinne than manie doo suppose But yet this is not the worst for sundrie are gone further and fallen into a damuable Schisme and the same so much the more feareful dangerous in that manie do not see the foulenes of it but rather holde them as godlie Christians and but a little ouershot in some matters The sore is grieuous and the wound is deepe as I haue small ioy to behold it so haue I lesse desire to make it deeper wishing from my heart that it might rather be cured Such as bee of another minde either in this or in any thing that I haue writtē I craue of them that they wil giue me leaue according to the doctrine and rule of the Apostle fraterne dissentire to dissent in some thing without the breach and hindrance of brotherly loue For as I do greatlie esteeme that rule of S. Paul let as manie as be perfect be thus minded if any be otherwise minded God will reueale it But so farre as we are come let vs proceed by one rule to be like affectioned Phil. 3. so do I much lament to see it almost vtterly neglected and the breach of loue concord as violent among many for euery matter wherein they dissent as if some ground of christianity were in question between them I do not meane that a man ought to consent vnto any error or vnto any euill committed by others or to neglect the instructing and admonishing as his place and calling dooth require But I had rather as one saith answer to God if I must giue account for mercie rather than for rigour and seueritie I knowe there be faults in extremities on both sides as on the one side vnder a perswasion of loue a man may be ouer fauorable in esteeming and bearing as brethren such as hold the foundations of the faith and yet erre in some things and haue great faultes so on the other side vnder a perswasion of zeale against all falsehood and wickednes they may fall into an vncharitable rigour as very many doo The nature of man is more prone to this latter and the fall is more grieuous than in that former few are carried with aboundance of godly loue to offend in ouer fauorable iudging their brethren and because the elect of God haue great infirmities the Scripture doth not warrant men to be rigorous in condemning if a man holding the hatred zeale
not to make either the being of a Sacrament or the efficacie therof to depend vpon a man but vpon Gods ordinance that he be a minster that deliuer it I will not denie that he must be a minister that doth deliuer it And I say withall that although the Donatists may seeme by some of their speeches to holde a further thing touching this matter yet lay al their sayings together and it is manifest they held that where the sinne was secret in him that did administer the Sacrament deliuered by him was effectuall notwithstanding he were neuer so wicked inwardly but if his sinne were open he was no minister and so no Sacrament but the partie that communicateth with him is polluted by him Potilian the Donatist Bishop in the beginning of his epistle denying that they did rebaptize but that such as were baptized in the Churches were not baptized at all before they baptized them for confirmation vseth this saying ConscieÌ„tia namque dantis attenditur quae abluat accipientis For the conscience of him that giueth is attended which may wash the conscience of him that receiueth Further he saith Qui fidem a perfido sumpserit non fidem percipit sed reatum He that will take faith of the faithlesse receiueth not faith but guiltines And rendring a reason for confirmation he saith Omnis enim res origine et radice consistit si caput non habet aliquid nihil est For euery thing doth consist of an originall and roote and if any thing haue not a head it is nothing Augustine answereth to these sayings of Petilian demanding first what if the conscience of him that giueth be secret and perhaps vncleane how can it wash the conscience of him that receiueth For if the Donatist shall say it apperteineth not to the receiuer whatsoeuer euill lie hid in the conscience of the giuer that ignorance perhaps shal be of this force that vnwittinglie he cannot bee defiled by the conscience of him that baptizeth him let it suffice therefore that the defiled conscience of an other while it is not knowne doth not pollute yet will they say it shall also wash From whence is he washed then that receiueth baptisme of one that hath a polluted conscience and he doth not knowe so much Séeing he saith he that will take faith of him that is faithles doth not receiue faith but guiltines Behold a faithles man doth stand to baptize but he that is to be baptized doth not knowe his vnfaithfulnes what doest thou thinke he shall receiue faith or guiltines If the Donatist say he receiueth faith then he inferreth that it is graunted it may come to passe that a man may receiue faith and not guiltines from an vnfaithful man and so the former saying is false But if the Donatist should answere he receiueth guiltines then he saith the Donatists should baptize those againe which were baptized among themselues by wicked men whose wickednesse was secrete at such time as they did baptize but afterward they were beâ—raied conuict and condemned I say then it is manifest by the practise of the Donatists in not baptizing againe any of those which had béen among them baptized by their owne Ministers whom they estéemed godlie but afterward were disclosed to be ranke hypocrites and so they condemned and cast them foorth that their iudgement was that he was a Minister of Christ though a reprobate touching his owne person and the Sacrament deliuered by him a true Sacrament so long as his wickednes say hid from the knowledge of men howsoeuer the reasons of Petilian which he vttered in the rash heate of his furie may seeme to stretch further And where as Augustine answering to y e rest of the words saith Quapropter siue à fideli siue à perfido dispensatore Sacramentum baptismi quisque percipiat spes ei omnis in Christo sit ne sit maledictus qui spem suam ponit in homine Alioquin si talis quisque in gratia spirituali renascitur qualis est ille à quo baptizatur cum manifestus est qui baptizat homo bonus ipse dat fidem ipse origo radix capútque nascentis est cùm autem latet perfidus baptizator tunc quisque à Christo percipit fidem tunc à Christo ducit originem tunc in Christoradicatur tunc Christo capite gloriatur laborandum est omnibus qui baptizantur vt baptizatores perfidos habeant ignorent eos That is to say Wherefore whosoeuer receiueth the Sacrament of baptisme whether it bee of a faithfull or whether it be of an vnfaithfull dispensor let all his hope be in Christ least he be accursed as one that putteth his trust in man Otherwise if euerie one that is borne in spirituall grace be such an one as he is by whom he is baptized and when he that baptizeth is manifest a good man he giueth faith he is the originall the roote and the head of him that is newe borne but when he that baptizeth is vnfaithfull being not knowne so to be then euerie one receiueth faith of Christ taketh originall from Christ is rooted in Christ and glorieth in Christ his head then all men are to endeuour which are baptized that they may haue vnfaithfull baptizers so they knowe them not to be such His reason is that when the man that baptizeth is secretlie wicked it is most absurd to say his conscience baptizeth or that he is the roote or head of him that is regenerate and therefore the Donatists confessing such to bee truelie baptized he saith it must néeds then be Christ that doth baptize And thereupon inferreth that this absurditie must needes followe which is most foolish to beléeue that it is better to be baptized of a secret wicked man than of the best manifest godlie man because Christ is incomparablie better than the best men Wherefore he wisheth them to confesse whether the Minister be good or bad it is Christ alone that doth baptize that giueth faith that is the roote and the head It will now be said that by this it appeareth the Donatists did ascribe all to the man if he were godlie Let vs see therefore what they answere Cresconius taking vpon him to defend the saying of Petilian in this that the conscience of the giuer doth wash the conscience of the receiuer and Augustine demaunded what if the giuer be of a defiled conscience and secret Cresconius answereth Conscientia dantis attenditur non secundum eius synceritatem quae in illa videri non potest sed secundum famam quae de illa seu vera seu falsa est quia videlicet eius est hominis qui si sceleratus occultus sit sufficit accipienti quod bonae sit existimationis nondum cognitus nondum iudicatus nondum ab ecclesia separatus That is The conscience of the giuer is attended not according to the synceritie thereof which in it cannot be seene but according to the fame which is