oute any wythout good cause that then the Magistrates shoulde compell the churches to doe their duetye In deede the byshop of Rome gaue the election then into the Emperoure hys handes because of the lyghtnesse of the people as Platina maketh mention but that is not the matter for I do nothing else heere but shew that the elections of the ministers by the Church were vsed in the times of the Emperoures and by their consentes and seeing that Otho confessed it pertayned not vnto him it is to be doubted whether he tooke it at the Bishop his handes And if the Emperoures permitted the election of the byshop to that Citie where it made most for their suertie to haue one of their owne appoyntment as was Rome which with their byshoppes dyd often tymes put the good Emperoures to trouble it is to be thought that in other places both Cities townes they dyd not deny the elections of the ministers to the people Besides that certayne of those constitutions are not of Rome but of any citie whatsoeuer And these Emperoures were and lyued betweene 500. and odde yeares vntill the very poynt of a thousande yeares after Christ so that hyther to thys lyberty was not gone out of the Church albeit the Pope which brought in all tyranny and went about to take all libertie from the churches was now on horse backe had placed hym selfe in that Antichristian seate To the next section in the 45. THose that write the Centuries suspect thys Canon and doubt whether it be a bastarde or no considering the practise of the church But heere or euer you were aware you haue striken at your selfe For before you sayde that thys order of chusing the minister by voyces of the church was but in the Apostles tyme and duryng the time of persecution And the first time you can alledge thys libertie to be taken awaye was in the 334. yeare of our Lorde which was at the least 31. yeares after that Constantine the great began to raigne I say at the least because there be good authors that say that thys Councell of Laodicea was holden Anno. 338. after the death of Iouinian the Emperoure and so there is 35. yeares betweene the beginning of Constantines raigne and thys councel Now I thinke you will not say that the Church was vnder persecution in Cōstantines tyme And therfore you see you are greatly deceiued in your accoumpt And if it be as lawfull for vs to vse maister Caluins authoritie which both by example and wrytings hath alwayes defended our cause as it is for you to wryng him and his wordes to things which he neuer meant and the contrary wherof he continually practised then thys authoritie of youres is dashed For maister Caluin sayth where as it is sayd in that councel that the election should not be permitted to the people it meaneth nothing else but that they should make no election without hauing some ministers or men of iudgement to direct them in their election and to gather their voyces and prouyde that nothing be done tumultuously euen as Paule and Barnabas were cheefe in the election of the churches And euen the same order woulde we haue kepte in elections continually for auoyding of confusion for as we would haue the libertie of the Church preserued which Christ hath bought so dearely from all tyranny so do we agayne condemne and vtterly abhorre all barbarous confusion and disorder But if councelles be of so great authoritie to decide thys controuersy then the most famous councell of Nice will strike a great stroke with you which in an Epistle that it wryteth vnto the Church of Egipt as Theodoret maketh mention speaketh thus It is meete that you should haue power both to chuse any man and to geue their names which are worthy to be amongst the clergye and to doe all things absolutely according to the law and decrees of the churche And if it happen any to dye in the churche then those which were last taken are to be promoted to the honor of him that is dead with thys condition if they be worthy and the people chuse them and the bishop of the citie of Alexandria together geuing his consent and appoynting them An other of the famousest councelles called the councell of Constantinople which was gathered vnder Theodosius the great as it is witnessed by the * Tripartite storie in an Epistle which it wrote to Damasus the pope and Ambrose and others sayth thus We haue ordayned Nectarius the byshoppe of Constantinople with the whole consent of the counsell in the sight of the Emperour Theodosius beloued of God the whole Citie together decreeing the same Likewise he sayth that Flauian was appoynted by that synode byshop of Antioche the whole people appoynting him Likewise in the councell of Carthage where Augustine was holden about anno domini 400. in the first canon of the councell it is sayde when hee hath bene examyned in all these and founde fully instructed then let hym be ordayned Byshop by the common consent of the clarkes and the lay people and the Byshoppes of the prouince and especially eyther by the authoritie or presence of the metropolitane And in the Toletane councell as it appeareth in the 51. distinction it was thus ordayned Let not hym be counted a priest of the Churche for so they speake whome neyther the clergye nor people of that citie where he is a priest doth chuse nor the consent of the metropolitane other priests in that prouince hath sought after Moreouer concilium Cabilonense which was holden anno domini 650. in the tenth Canon hath thys If any Bishop after the death of hys predecessor be chosen of any but of the byshops in the same prouince and of the cleargie citizens let an other be chosen and if it be otherwise let that ordination be accompted of none effect All which councelles proue manifestly that as the people in their elections had the ministers rounde about or synodes counceiles directing them so there was none came to be ouer the people but by their voyces or consentes To the next section in the 45. page Thys alteration c. IN deede if you put such darke coleures vpon the Apostles church as thys is it is no maruell if it ought not to be a patrone to vs of framing and fashioning our church after it But O Lord who can paciently heare thys horrible disorder ascribed to the Apostles church which heere you attribute vnto it that euery one hand ouer head preached baptised and expounded the Scriptures VVhat a window nay what a gate is opened heere to Anabaptistes to confirme their fantasticall opynion wherin they holde that euery man whome the spirite moueth may come euen from the ploughe taile to the pulpit to preache the worde of god If you say it is Ambrose saying and not youres I answere vnlesse you allow it why bring you it and that to proue the difference betwene the Apostles times and these
be seruauntes vnto the church and as they rule in the churche so they must remember to subiect them selues vnto the churche to submit their scepters to throw downe their crownes before the church yea as the Prophet speaketh to licke the dust of the feete of the churche Wherein I meane not that the churche doth eyther wring the scepters out of Princes hands or taketh their crownes from their heads or that it requireth Princes to licke the dust of her feete as the Pope vnder thys pretence hath done but I meane as the Prophet meaneth that whatsoeuer magnificence or excellencye or pompe is eyther in them or in their estates and common wealthes whych doth not agree wyth the simplicity and in the iudgement of the world poore and contemptible estate of the church that that they will be content to lay downe And heere commeth to my minde that wherwyth the world is now deceyued and wherwyth M. doctor goeth about bothe to deceiue him selfe and others to in that he thinketh that the church must be framed according to the common wealth and the church gouernment accordyng to the ciuill gouernment whych is as much to say as if a man shuld fashion hys house according to hys hāgings when as in deede it is cleane contrary that as the hangings are made fit for the house so the common wealth must be made to agree wyth the church and the gouernment therof wyth her gouernmēt For as the house is before the hangings therefore the hangings whych come after must be framed to the house whych was before so the church being before there was any common wealthe and the common wealthe comming after muste be fashioned and made sutable vnto the church Otherwyse God is made to geue place to men heauen to earth and religion is made as it were a rule of Lesbia to be applyed vnto any estate of common wealth whatsoeuer Seing that good men that is to say the church are as it were the foundation of the worlde it is meete that the common wealthe whych is builded vppon that foundation should be framed according to the churche therfore those voyces ought not to be heard thys order will not agree wyth oure common wealth that lawe of God is not for our state thys forme of gouernment will not matche wyth the pollicy of thys realme Nowe to come againe to M. Doctors reasons he sayeth in the. 133. page that if they vrge gouernoures because they are spoken of in the. 12. to the Corin. then they may as well vrge the power to worke miracles the gift of healing c. for that they are likewyse reckened vp in the same place But dothe not M. doctor know that although some thyngs be extraordinarye and for a time yet other some thyngs are ordinary and to endure alwayes Will he say for that the gifts of miracles and of healing are extraordinarye therefore the teachers whych are there reckened together wyth the gift of working miracles and of healing are extraordinary hath he forgotten that he in deede vntruely made before the office of Apostles and Prophets and Euangelists a perpetual office and yet they are there ioyned wyth these gifts whych were but for a time and therfore it is a very absurde argument to saye that for that some thyng reckened with gouernors is for a time and extraordinary therfore the gouernors be so As for Musculus authoritye whych is that the tymes do chaunge the orders besides that I haue answeared before and besides that he dothe not speake it of the Elders I haue proued that it can haue no place heere for so much as the Elders are necessarye and commaunded in the scripture Vnto the authors of the Admonition saying that it is easier to ouerthrowe by bryving one man then the fayth and piety of a godly company he answeareth that so it should come to passe that the moe that ruled the better estate it shoulde be and so the populare estate should be the best But where do the authors of the admonition say that the more that rule the better it is is it all one to saye that the gouernment of a fewe of the best is better then the gouernment of one and to saye the more that rule the better If it were to the purpose it myghte be shewed both by Diuinitye and by Philosophye whych M. Doctor speaketh of that that estate whych he meaneth is not the best and I haue in a word before spoken of it where I declared that the mixed estate is best bothe by the example of the kingdome of Christ and also of thys our realme It is sufficient nowe to admonyshe you that although it be graunted that the gouernment of one be the best in the common wealth yet it can not be in the church For the Prince may wel be Monarche immediately betwene God the common wealth but no man can be Monarche betwene God hys church but Christ whych is the only head therof Therfore the Monarchie ouer the whole church and ouer euery particulare church and ouer euery singular membre in the church is in Chryst alone Last of all to proue that there ought to be no senyors in the church vnder a Christian prince he citeth Ambroses authority both in the. 114. and. 132. pages whych sayeth that the sinagogue or church of the Iewes after that the church of the chrystians had senyors wythout whose counsell nothyng was done in the church whervpon he concludeth that for as much as they were not in Ambrose tyme therfore they were not vnder a christian prince And heere M. doctor hath in one sentence proclaimed bothe hys great ignorance in the whole storye of the churche and wythall eyther a maruellous abusion and suffering hym selfe to be misled by some vnaduysed prompter or subtile foxe that thought to deceyne him or else a notable euill conscience whych wrastleth agaynst the truthe Hys ignorance doth appeare partly in that he sayeth that because there were no senyors in Amb. church and in those churches about hym therefore there was none at all but moste manifestly in that he sayeth for so much as there were no senyors in Amb. time therefore there was none vnder a christian Prince as though there were not many yeres before Amb. tyme christian Emperors when as betwene the tyme of S. Ambrose being byshop and the tyme of Phillip successor of Gordias the first christian Emperor there is more then a. 150. yeares and betweene the time of Constantine the Emperor and the tyme of Ambrose being byshop there be aboue 80. yeares And if M. Doctor had euer red the ecclesiasticall storyes he mought haue founde easely the eldershyp moste flourishyng in Constantines tyme and other tymes when as the peace of the chrystians was greatest And that the presbyterie or eldershyp endured in the church after Ambrose tyme and in the tyme of peace and as it is very lyke in Amb. tyme although not where he was it may be shewed
A REPLYE TO AN answere made of M. Doctor VVhitegifre AGAINSTE THE ADMONITION to the Parliament By T. C. ISAIE 61. ver 1. For Syons sake I will not holde my tonge and for Ierusalems sake I will not rest vntill the righteousnes therof breake forthe as the lighte and the saluation thereof be as a burning lampâ— Ver. 6. 7. Ye that are the Lordes remembrancers keepe not silence and geue hym no rest vntill he repayre and set vp Ierusalem the prayse of the world The Printer to the Reader SOme perhaps will maruel at the newe impression of thys boke and so muche the more will they wonder because they shall see that with great confidence boldnes notwythstanding our most gracious Princes late published proclamation procured rather by the Byshops then willingly sought for by her maiestie whose mildnes is such that she were easyer led to yelde to the proclamation of the highest then drawne to proclaime any thing against hym were it not for the subtil perswasions and wicked dealings of thys horned generation as by their false doctrine and cruell practises is to bee seene and by the speciall motion of Gods spirite and hys protection it hath bene both attempted and ended But cease to muse good christian reader whosoeuer thou art and learne to know that no lawes were they neuer so hard and seuere can put out the force of Gods spirite in hys children nor any cruelty though it stretched it selfe so far as to sheding of bloud from which kynde of dealing the Byshops are not cleare as the Prysons in London the Gatehouse at Westminster c. can witnesse the Lord for geue them and vs our sinnes can discharge the sayntes and seruauntes of the Lord from going forwarde in that which is good For the profite therefore of the godly and their instruction haue we hazarded our selues and as it were cast our selues into suche daungers and troubles as shal be layed vpon vs if we come into the haÌ„ds of the persecuting Bishops From the which pray the Lord if it be hys will to delyuer vs if not yet that it woulde please hym to geue vs both patience to beare what so euer he shall geue them power and lyberty to lay vpon vs and constancy also to contynue in hys truth and the profession thereof vnto our lyues end Farewell in the Lord and prayse God for thys worke I. S. Faultes escaped Page 2. line 14. for arme read army pa. 60. line 30. for thys spirite read hys spirite Page 39. line 41. for when read whom pa. 39. line 47. for against them read agaynst hym Page 26. line 37. for appose read oppose pa. 23. line 31. for ioipon read loipon and for proegoron read proegoros pa. 10. li. 41. for kairoutiche read kairou tyche pa. 69. for dioceris diocesis Page 9. line 16. put a comma at speache and a full poynt at vse Page 106. line 12. for to breake read doe breake Page 118. line 31. in the ende therof adde whych thyng also M. Doctor graunteth Page 127. line 6. for I beleue read I wil beleue page 127. line 8. For the apostles read For the false Apostles page 129. line 51. for and more in the read and more to in the. Page 130. line 41. for sole meditation read sole mediation page 137. line 49. for and that it is read and it is page 138. line 4. for ingenium read ingenuum page 138. line 14. for necessary read necessarily page 141. line 15. for there is greater read there is a greater Page 142. line 32. for and other read an other page 144. line 7. for herevpon read herevnto Page 144. line 51. for celebrating in one kinde read celebrating it in one kinde Page 146. line 18. for the other vsed in the other vsed only in pa. 160. li. 23. for tute read true Page 163. line 43. for there were many read there were very many page 174. line 3. for Ambose read Ambrose page 188. line 29. for in England or in Ireland read and in England Page 189. line 8. for vicarse read vicares page 1â—8 in the margent for Concil Valense reade Concil Vasense page 201. in the margent adde to that of August lib. 2. de consolatione mortuorum cap. 5. page 207. line 42. read for catexochen read cathexochen Page 205. line 21. for possessed read dysposesssed Page 210. line 46. and other thyngs and do other thyngs pa. 214. li. 15. for iabon read labon Page 215. line 20. for or so much deceyued of read or so much as deceiued A short Table of the princypall poyntes entreated of in thys boke made according to the order of the Alphabet A  M. Doctors Anacletus counterfait 92. M. Doctors Anicetus counterfait 92. There are now no Apostles 63. The churche was established in the Apostles tymes 51. Apostles appoynted no archbyshoppes but byshoppes 92. Corruptions entred into the church immediatly after the times of the apostles 96. Apparell of the mynisters 71. c. Apparell of mourners is either hypocriticall or els daungerous to prouoke excessiue sorrow 201. Archbyshops archdeacons names vnlawfull 82. c. Archbyshops names are not so auncient as they be supposed 88. c. Archbyshops and archdeacons offyces vnlawfull 83. c. Archbishops offices as they were in times past haue now no place with vs and of the small prerogatiue which they had then aboue other byshops 122. c. Archbyshops not spoken of by Cyprian nor bishops such as oures is but of S. Paules bishops 98. c. Archdeacons in times past how much they differed from oures now 96. Arguments of authority negatiuely or affirmatiuely out of the scripture good the vse of theÌ„ when they be drawne from men 25. B  QuestioÌ„s about Baptisme answered 172. c. QuestioÌ„s ministred to infaÌ„ts in Baptisme 169 Crossing in Baptisme wherof it rose 170. c Basile a poore Metropolitane 94. Byshops in tymes past most vnlike oure byshops now 106. c. General faults of the Boke of coÌ„mon prayer 131. Prescript forme of prayer at Burials inconuenient 200. Les lamenting the dead and les charges about Burials permitted vnto vs then to those vnder the law 200. c. Buryall sermons inconuenient 201. c. Buryall places where they were in the olde churches 69. C  Cathedral churches in times past those which are now greatly differ 204. Cathedral churches rightly called dens do hurt the good which they might do if they were conuerted into colledges or houses of study 205. â— â–ª Ceremonies must be tried by rules in the scripture and by which 27. Ceremonies making in the church belongeth vnto Ecclesiasticall persons 192. Difference betwene placing Ceremonies in the church which were not besâ—â—e tollerating those which are already placed 25. Chauncelers iurisdiction vnlawfull 188. c. Church hath not power to ordayne whether preaching or ministring of the sacramentes shal be priuate or publike 28. Church must not be framed vnto the common wealth but the
that S. Paul meaneth there a full plerophorian and perswasion that that which he doth is well done I graunt it But from whence can that spring but from fayth and how can we perswade and assure our selues that we do well but whereas we haue the word of God for our warrant so that the Apostle by a metonimie Subiecti pro adiuncto doth geue to vnderstād from whence the assured persuasion doth spring Whereupon it falleth out the forasmuch as in all our actions both publyke priuate we ought to follow the direction of the word of God in matters of the church and which concerne all there may be nothing done but by the word of god Not that we say as you charge vs in these words that no ceremonie c. may be in the church except the same be expressed in the word of God but that in making orders and ceremonies of the church it is not lawfull to doe what men list but they are bound to follow the generall rules of the scripture that are geuen to be the squire whereby those should be squared out Which rules I will here set downe as those which I would haue as well al orders ceremonies of the church framed by as by the which I wil be content that all those orders ceremonies which are now in question whether they be good conuenient or no should be tried examined by And they are those rules which Paule gaue in such cases as are not particularly mētioned of in scripture The first that they offend not any especially the Church of God. The second is that which you cite also out of Paul that all be done in order and comclynes The thirde that all be done to edifying The last that they be done to the glory of God. So that you see that those things which you recken vp of the houre time day of prayer c. albeit they be not specified in the scripture yet they are not left to any to order at their pleasure or so that they be not agaynst the worde of God but euen by and according to the word of God they must be established and those alone to be taken which do agree best and nearest with these rules before recited And so it is brought to passe which you thinke a great absurdity that al things in the church should be appoynted according to the word of god Wherby it likewise appeareth that we deny not but certayne things are left to the order of the church because they are of the nature of those which are varyed by times places persons other circumstances so could not at once be set down established for euer yet so left to the order of the church as that it do nothing agaynst the rules aforsayde But how doth this follow that certaine things are left to the order of the church therfore to make a new ministerie by making an Archbishop to alter the ministerie the is appointed by making a bishop or pastor without a church or flock to make a deacon without appointing him his church wherof he is a deacon wher he might exercise his charge of prouiding for the pore to abrogate cleane both name office of the elder with other more how I say doth it follow the because the church hath power to order certaine things therfore it hath power to do so of these which God hath ordayned and established of the which there is no tyme nor place nor person nor any other circumstance which can cause any alteration or chaunge Which thing shall better appeare both in the discourse of the whole booke and especially there where you go about to shew certayne reasons why there should be other gouernmēt now then was in the tyme of the apostles But whyle you goe about to seme to say much rake vp a great nomber of thinges you haue made very euill mestin and you haue put in one thinges which are not paires nor matches Because I will not draw the reader willingly into more questions then are already put vppe I will not stand to dispute whether the Lordes day which we call Sonday being the day of the resurrection of our sauiour Christ and so the day wherein the worlde was renued as the Iewes sabboth was the day wherein the world was finished and being in all the churches in the Apostles times as it seemeth vsed for the day of the rest and seruing of God ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say that there was no great iudgement to make it as arbytrarie and chaungeable as the houre and the place of prayer But where was your iudgement when you wrote that the scripture hath appoynted no discipline nor correction for suche as shall contemne the common prayers and hearing the word of God VVhat churche discipline would you haue other then admonions reprehensions and if these will not profitte excommunication and are they not appoynted of our sauioure Christe There are also ciuill punishments and punishmentes of the body likewise appoynted by the word of God in diuers places in Exodus He that sacrificeth to other gods and not to the Lorde alone shall dye the death And in Deutcronomie Thou shalt burne out the euill out of the middest of thee that the rest may heare learne and not dare do the like The execution of thys law appeareth in the Chro. by king Aza who made a law that all those that did not seke the Lord shuld be kilde And thus you see the ciuill punishment of contēners of the word prayers There are other for such as neglect the worde which are according to the quantitie of the fault so that whether you meane ciuil or ecclesiasticall correction the scripture hath defined of them both I omit that there be examples of pulpits in Nehemias which the common translation calleth Ezra of chaires in S. Mathew where by the chaire of Moses our sauioure Christ meaning the doctrine of Moses doth also declare the manner which they vsed in teaching Of sitting at the communion which the Euangelist noteth to haue bene done of our Sauioure Christ with his disciples which examples are not to be lightly chaunged and vppon many occasions But this I can not omitte that you make it an indifferent thing to preache the word of God in churches or in houses that is to say priuately or publikely For what better interpretation can I haue then of your owne wordes which say by and by after of Baptisme that it is at the order of the church to make it priuate or publike For if it be in the power of the church to order that Baptisme may be ministred at the house of euery priuate person it is also in her power to ordayne that the worde be preached also priuately And then where is that which Salomon sayth that wysdom cryeth openly in the streates and at the corners of the stretes where
many meete and where be the examples of the olde church which had besydes the temple at Ierusalem erected vppe synagogues in euery towne to heare the worde of God and mynister the cyrcumcysion what is become of the commaundement of our sauioure Christ whych * wylled his discyples that they should preache openly and vpon the house toppes that which they heard in the eare of hym and secreately and howe doe we obserue the example of our sauyour Christ who to delyuer hys doctryne from all suspytion of tumultes and other dysorders sayd that he preached openly in the temple and in the synagogues albeit the same were very daungerous vnto hym the example of the * Apostles that dyd the same For as for the tyme of persecution when the church dare not nor is not meete that it should shewe it selfe to the ennemy no not then is the word of God nor the sacraments priuately preached or ministred neyther yet ought to be For althoughe they be done in the house of priuate man yet because they are ought to be ministred in the presence of the congregation there is neyther priuate preaching nor priuate baptisme For like as where so euer the Queenes maiestie lyeth there is the Courte althoughe it be in a Gentleman hys house so wheresoeuer the churche meeteth that place is not to be holden priuate as touching the prayers preachings and sacraments that shal be there ministred So that I denye vnto you that the churche hathe power to ordaine at her pleasure whether preaching or ministring of sacramentes should be priuate or publicke when they ought not to be but where the church is and the church ought not to assemble if it be not letted by persecution but in open places And when it is driuen from them those places where it gathereth it selfe togither although they be otherwise priuate yet are they for the time that the churches doe there assemble and for respect of the worde and sacraments that are there ministred in the presence of the church publike places And so you see those whome you charge slaunderously wyth conuenticles are faine to glase vp the windowes that you open to secreate and priuate conuenticles The Answere from Nowe if either godly councels vnto I trust M. Caluins iudgement will weigh HEere are brought in Iustin Martyr Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian and councels as dumme persons in the stage only to make a shewe and so they go out of the stage without saying any thing And if they had had any thing to say in this cause for these matters in controuersye there is no doubt but M. Doctor would haue made them speake For when he placeth the greatest strength of hys cause in antiquitie he would not haue passed by Iustin Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian being so auncient and taken Augustin whych was a great time after them And if the godly councels coulde haue helped heere it is small wisedome to take Augustine and leaue them For I thinke he might haue learned that amongst the authorities of mē the credite of many is better then of one and that thys is a generall rule that as the iudgement of some notable personage is loked vnto in a matter of debate more then theirs of the common sorte so the iudgement of a councell where many learned men be gathered together caryeth more likelyhode of truthe wyth it then the iudgement of one man although it be but a prouinciall councell much more then if it be a generall and therfore you do your cause great iniurie if you could alledge them and do not Thys is once to be obserued of the reader throughout your whole boke that you haue well prouided that you would not be taken in the trip for misalledging the scriptures for that onles it be in one or two poynts we heare continually instead of Esay and Ieremy S. Paule and S. Peter and the rest of the Prophets and Apostles S. Augustin and S. Ambrose kai to en te phake myron Dionysius Areopagita Clement c. And therfore I can not tell wyth what face we can call the papistes from their antiquitie councels and fathers to the triall of the scriptures who in the controuersies whych rise amongst our selues flie so farre from them that it wanteth not much that they are not banished of your part from the deciding of all these controuersies And if thys be a sufficient proofe of things to say suche a Doctor sayde so suche a councell decreed so there is almost nothing so true but I can impugne nothing so false but I can make true And well assured I am that by their meanes the principall groundes of our faith may be shaken And therfore because you haue no proofe in the worde of God we comfort our selues assured that for so muche as the foundations of the Archbyshop and Lordship of Bishops and of other things which are in question be not in heauen that they wil fall and come to the ground from whence they were taken Nowe it is knowne they are from beneath and of the earthe and that they are of men and not of God The answearer goeth about to proue that they came yet out of good earthe and from good men whych if he had obtained yet he may well know that it is no good argument to proue that they are good For as the best earth bringeth forth weedes so do the best men bring forth lies and errors But let vs heare what is brought that if thys visarde and shewe of truthe be taken away all men may perceiue howe good occasion we haue to complaine and howe iust cause there is of reformation In the first place of S. Augustine there is nothing against any thing whych we hold for thys that the church may haue thyngs not expressed in the scripture is not againste that it oughte to haue nothing but that may be warranted by the scripture For they may be according to the scripture and by the scripture whych are not by plaine termes expressed in the scripture But against you it maketh muche ouerturneth all your building in this boke For if in those things whych are not expressed in the scripture that is to be obserued of the Church whych is the custome of the people of God and decree of oure forefathers then howe can these things be varyed according to time place persons whych you say should be when as that is to be retained which the people of God hath vsed the decrees of the forefathers haue ordained And thē also how can we do safelier then to folow the apostles customes and the churches in their time which we are sure are our for fathers the people of god Besides that how can we retaine the customes and constitutions of the papists in such things which were neither the people of God nor our forefathers I wil not enter now to discus whether it were wel done to fast in al places according to the custome of the place
Thys is certaine that breuitie whych you pretend was in small commendation with you whych make so often repetitions stuffe in diuers sentences of Doctors and wryters to proue things that no man denyeth translate whole leaues to so small purpose vpon so light occasions make so often digressions sometimes against the vnlernednes sometimes against the malice sometimes against the intemperancie of speach of the authors of the admonition and euery hand while pulling out the sworde vpon them and throughout the whole boke sporting your selfe wyth the quotations in the margent so that if all these where taken out of your boke as winde out of a bladder we should haue had it in a narow roume whych is thus swelled into such a volume and in stead of a boke of .ij. s. we should haue had a pamfiet of two pence And whereas you say that you haue not alleaged these learned fathers for the authors of the libell but for the wise discrete humble and learned to them also I leaue it to consider vpon that whych is alledged by me First howe lyke a diuine it is to seeke for rules in the Doctors to measure the making of ceremonies by whych you mighte haue had in the scriptures there at the riuers heere at the fountaine vncerten there whych heere are certen there in parte false which are heere altogither true then to howe little purpose they serue you and last of all howe they make against you An answer to the ende of the. 29. page beginning at the. 25. at But I trust M. Caluins iudgement VVHy should you trust that M. Caluins iudgement wil weigh wyth them if they be Anabaptists as you accuse them if they be Donatists if Catharists if conspired wyth the Papistes howe can you thinke that they will so easely rest in M. Caluins iudgement whych hated and confuted all Anabaptisme Donatisme Catharisme and Papisme But it is true whych the prouerbe sayth memorem c. he that will speake an vntruthe had neede haue a good memorye and thys is the force of the truthe in the conscience of man that although he suppres it and pretend the contrary yet at vnwares it stealeth out For what greater testimonye coulde you haue geuen of them that they hate all those heresies which you lay to their charge then to say that you trust M. Caluins iudgement wil weigh wyth them Now in dede that you be not deceiued we receiue M. Caluin and weigh of him as of the notablest instrumēt that the Lord hath stirred vp for the purging of his churches and of the restoring of the plaine and sincere interpretation of the scriptures whych hath bene since the Apostles times And yet we do not so read his works that we beleeue any thyng to be true because he sayeth it but so farre as we can esteme that that whych he sayth dothe agree wyth the canonicall scriptures But what gather you out of M. Caluin First that all necessary thyngs to saluation are contained in the scripture who denyeth it In the second collection where you would geue to vnderstande that ceremonies and externall discipline are not prescribed particularly by the worde of God and therfore left to the order of the church you must vnderstande that all externall discipline is not left to the order of the churche being particularly prescribed in the scriptures no more then all ceremonies are left to the order of the church as the sacraments of baptisme and the supper of the Lord wheras vpon the indefinite speaking of M. Caluin saying ceremonies and externall discipline wythout adding all or some you goe about subtelly to make men beleeue that M. Caluin had placed the whole external discipline in the power and arbitrement of the churche For if all externall discipline were arbitrarie and in the choise of the church Excommunication also whych is a part of it might be cast away which I thinke you will not say But if that M. Caluin were aliue to heare hys sentences racked and wrythen to establishe those thyngs whych he stroue so mightely to ouerthrow and to ouerthrow those things that he laboured so sore to establishe what might he say and the iniurie which is done to him is nothing les because he is deade Concerning all the rest of your collections I haue not lightly knowne a man which taketh so much paine with so small gaine and which soweth his sede in the sea wherof there wil neuer rise encrease For I know none that euer denied those things vnles peraduenture you would make the reader beleeue that al those be contentions which moue any controuersy of things which they iudge to be amis and thē it is answered before And now I answer further that they that moue to reformation of things are no more to be blamed as authors of contention then the Phisition which geueth a purgation is to be blamed for the rumbling and stirre in the belly and other disquietnes of the body which should not haue bene if the euil humors and naughty disposition of it had not caused or procured thys purgation Wheras you conclude that these contentions woulde be sone ended if M. Caluins wordes were noted heere we will ioyne with you and will not refuse the iudgement of M. Caluin in any matter that we haue in controuersy with you Which I speake not therfore because I would call the decision of controuersies to men and their words which pertaine only to God and to his worde but because I know hys iudgement in these things to be cleane against you and especially for that you would beare men in hand that M. Caluin is on your side and against vs And as for Peter Martyr and Bucer and Musculus and Bullinger Gualter and Hemingius and the rest of the late wryters by citing of whom you wold geue to vnderstand that they are against vs in these matters there is set downe in the latter end of this boke their seuerall iudgements of the most of these things whych are in controuersy whereby it may appeare that if they haue spoken one word against vs they haue spoken two for vs And wheras they haue wrytten as it is sayde and alleaged in their priuate letters to their freendes againste some of these causes it may appeare that they haue in their workes published to the whole world that they confirme the same causes So y if they wrote any such thyngs they shall be founde not so much to haue dissented from vs as from them selues and therefore we appeale from them selues vnto them selues and from their priuate notes and letters to their publike wrytings as more autenticall You labor still in the fire that is vnprofitably to bring M. Bucer hys Epistle to proue that the church may order things wherof there is no particular and expressed commaundement for there is none denieth it neither is thys saying that all things are to be done in the churche according to the rule of the word of God any thing repugnant vnto
But I will not draw the reader to suche thorney and subtile questyons it is enough for vs that the one and the other be impossible although one shoulde bee more impossible then the other And that it is impossible for one man to bee byshoppe ouer a whole prouince or ouer a whole dyocese I leaue it to bee considered of that which is before sayde in the discription of the office of a byshoppe pastor or minister where I speake of the necessitie of the residence of the byshop in hys church As a Prince may rule a whole realme such as Fraunce or Englande so may he rule the whole world by officers and magistrates appoynted vnderneath hym And there haue bene dyuers Princes which haue had as many landes vnder their power as the Pope hath had churches and although it be somewhat incōuenient yet I know not why they might not so haue comming lawfully by them Now I woulde gladly heare whether you woulde say the same of a byshoppe and if you dare not then why doe you bring the similitude of the gouernment of a Prince ouer a lande to proue that an archbyshop may be ouer a whole prouince M. Doctor dare boldly say that there may be one byshop ouer a whole prouince but he dare not say that there may be a byshop ouer the whole Church But what better warrant for the one then for the other Agayne if the whole church be in one prouince or in one realme which hath bene and is not impossible to be agayne if there may be now one byshop ouer a realme or prouince then there may be one byshop ouer all the church so that in trauayling with an archbyshop he hath brought forth a Pope But he sayth that an archbyshop hath not the charge of gouernment ouer the whole prouince generally but in cases exempted so may doe it more easely But he should haue remembred that he assigned before the offices of archbyshop byshop to be in all those things which other ministers are that besides those offices he geueth them particulare charges So that where the office of the minister is but to preach pray minister the sacraments in hys parish the office of archbyshop bishop is to do the same and more in the whole prounice or diocese And so it followeth that it is easyer for a minister to discharge his duetie in hys parish then for an archbyshop or byshop to discharge their dueties in any one parishe of their prouince or diocese For they haue in euery parish more to doe and greater charge then the mynister of the paryshe hath then much lesse are they able to doe their dueties in all the paryshes of theyr prouinces or dyocese After M. Doctor translateth out of M. Caluin the papistes reasons for the supremacy of the Pope and M. Caluines solutions For what purpose hee knoweth I can not tell vnles it be to blot paper I know not what he shoulde meane and the quarell also which he picketh to translate thys place is yet more strange For he sayth that the authors of the admonition borowed their argumentes from the papistes when the contrary is true that they vse the reasons which they of the gospell vse agaynst the supremacy of the pope to ouerthrow the archbyshoppe And maister Doctor doth vse reasons to defende the archbyshop which the papistes vse to mayntayne the Pope For M. Doctor woulde proue that for because there is one king ouer a realme therefore there may be one byshop ouer a prouince and the papistes vse the same reason to proue the Pope to be a byshop of the whole church Shew now one reason that the authors of the admonition brought of the papistes to proue that there should be no archbyshop But now I perceiue hys meaning and that is that he thought to gette some comfort for the archbishop in M. Caluins solutions made vnto the papistes reasons for the supremacy and therfore he hath haled and pulled in as it were by the shulders thys disputation betwene the protestants and the papistes touching the supremacy And what is it that M. Caluin sayth for the archbyshop It hath bene before shewed what his iudgement was touching hauing one mynister ouer all the mynisters of a prouince and that he doth simply condemne it in hys commentary vpon the first chap. of the Phillippians Now let it be considered whether in these sentences he hath sayd any thing against hym selfe The papistes obiect that for so much as there was one high priest in Iury ouer all the church therfore there should be one byshop ouer all To whom M. Caluin answeareth that the reason followeth not for sayth he there is no reason to extend that to all the world which was profitable in one nation Heereupon M. Doctor would conclude that M. Caluine allowath one archbyshop ouer a whole prouince If one going about to proue that he may haue as many wiues as hee list woulde alledge Iacob for an Example which had two wyues and Maister Doctor should answere and say that although hee myght haue two wyues yet it followeth not that he may haue as many as he list would not Maister Doctor thinke that he had great iniurye if a man should conclude of these wordes that hys opynion is that a man may haue two wyues I thinke that he would suppose that he had great wrong and yet thus would he conclude of Maister Caluines wordes in thys first sentence whereas in deede M. Caluine declareth a little after a speciall reason why there was but one high priest in the whole land of Iury which is because he was a figure of Christ and that therby shuld be shadowed out hys sole meditation betwene God his church And therefore sheweth the forsomuch as there is none to represent or figure our sauiour Christ that his iudgement is that as there shoulde be no one ouer all the churches so should there be no one ouer any nation To the papistes obiecting for the supremacy that S. Peter was the prince cheefe of the apostles M. Caluin answereth first by denying that Peter was so and bringeth many places to proue that he was equall to the other apostles Afterward he sayth although it be graunted that Peter was cheefe yet followeth it not because one may beare rule ouer twelue being but a few in number that therefore one may rule ouer an hundreth thousand that it followeth not that that which is good amongst a few is forth with good in all the world Now let all men iudge with what conscience trust M. Doct. cyteth M. Caluin for to proue the office of the archbyshop But I maruell that he could not also see that which M. Caluin wryteth in the next sentence almost where he sayth that Christ is only the head of the church and that the church doth cleaue one to an other vnder his domynion but by what meanes according sayth he to the order and forme of pollicy which he
these things may be defended if men wil set them selues to striue and to contende yet for the desire that I haue that these thyngs should be amended and for the instruction of the simpler whych are studious of the truthe I haue bene bolde to vtter that whych I thinke not doubting also but that the light of the truthe shall be able to scatter all those mistes of reasons whych shall go about to darken the clearnes therof To the next section beginning at the. 79. page and holding on vntill the. 82. page MAister D. requireth that it should be proued vnto him that by priuate baptisme is ment baptisme by wemen First it is ment that it shuld be done by some other then the minister for that the minister is bid to geue them warning that they shuld not baptise the childe at home in their house wythout great cause and necessity Secondarily I would gladly aske him who they be that are present when the childe is so shortly after it is borne in great danger of death And last of all M. Doctor dothe not see howe he accuseth all the magistrates of thys realme of the neglect of their duety in that they allowe of the daily practising by women in baptising children if so be that the boke did not so appoynt it or permit it If he ment plainly heerein there needed not so much adoe The place of S. Mathew is as strong against womens baptising as it is against their preaching For the ministery of the word and sacraments can not be pulled in sonder whych the Lord hathe ioyned together from time to time For Noah whych was a preacher vnto the olde world of the wil of God was ordained also of God to make the Arke whych was a Sacrament and seale of hys preaching touching the destruction of the world And Abraham whom the Lord would haue to be the Doctor of hys church whych was then in his family was also commaunded to minister the Sacrament of circumcision vnto hys familye The priestes and Leuites whych were appoynted to teache the people were also appoynted to sacrifice and to minister other sacraments in the churche Likewise the same Prophets whych God stirred vp to preache he also ordained to cōfirme the same by signes and sacraments The same may be also brawne through out the new Testament as vnto euery of the twelue and afterward to the. 70. power was geuen bothe to preache the gospell and also to confirme with signes and miracles whych were seales of their doctrine And S. Paule by the commaundement that oure sauioure Christe gaue him to preache vndertoke also to baptise althoughe there were no expres wordes that licensed hym therevnto for he knewe right well that it was the perpetuall ordinance of God that the same should be the ministers of the word and sacraments Whervpon it followeth that for as much as women may not preach the gospel no not by the lawes of the realme that they ought not to minister baptisme But M. Doctor riseth vp and sayeth that a woman in the time of necessitye and when there is none other that eyther can or will preache may preache the gospell in the churche This is straunge doctrine and suche as strengtheneth the Anabaptistes handes and sauoureth stronger that wayes then any one thyng in all the admonition whych is so often condemned of Anabaptisme Hys first reason to proue it is that there are examples therof When we alledge the examples of all the churches of the apostles times to proue the election of the minister by the church and in other cases whych are generall examples approued and executed by the apostles contrary to no commaundement nor institution of God yea and as hathe bene proued according to the commaundement of God M. Doctor geueth vs oure answere in a worde that examples proue not nowe that the question is to make good womens preaching in the churche examples I will not saye of all churches but of no one church only of a fewe singulare persons not according to the commaundement of the worde of God but cleane contrary to the prescripte worde of God I say nowe examples and suche singulare examples are good proufes and strong arguments Now if the speache be a true messenger of the heart I perceiue M. doctor is of this minde that he would haue women preach in the church of England at thys time for he can not deny and he also confesseth it sometimes that thys is the time of necessity in dede it must be needes an extreme necessity that driueth to make one man pastor of two churches especially so far distant that driueth to make men which are not able to teach ministers and diuers more things which are contrary to the word of god Therfore this being a time of necessity by M. Doctors iudgement we ought to haue women to preach Besides this he sayth if neither none other can or wil preache that then women may preach but in the most churches of thys realme there is none that eyther can or will preach therefore there and in those churches women at the least if they be able may preache the gospell and consequently minister the sacraments In the. 187. page he citeth M. Caluin in the. 13. chap. section 32. to proue that women may teach wherein I maruell what he meaneth so to alledge M. Caluin continually he alledgeth the. 13. chapter and no booke as thoughe he had wrytten but one boke and in deede there is no such thing in no such chapter of any boke of hys institutions or in any other place throughout his whole workes as I am perswaded If this faulte had bene but twise or thrise I woulde haue thought it had bene the printers but now that it is continuall and so oftentimes surely he geueth great suspition that eyther some bodye hathe mocked hym wyth these places or els he would abuse others and especially him that should answer hys boke setting him to seeke that he should neuer finde As for M. Caluins iudgement what it is of womens preaching it maye appeare by that he will not by any meanes no not in the time of necessitye as they terme it suffer either woman or any lay mā to baptise or minister any sacrament and therfore not to preache And as for the examples of Mary the sister of Moyses of Olda of Anna and the daughters of Philip the euangelist whych are all called prophetisses for I thinke M. doctor meaneth these exāples as for them I say it wil be hard for to shew that they euer prophesied or taught openly in any publike meeting or congregation But the surer answer is that although the Lorde doe sometimes not being vnder any law chaunge the order which he hath set in raysing vp certayne women partly to the shame of men and to humble them partly to let them vnderstand that he can if he would want their ministery yet it is not lawfull for vs to draw that into
a light foote the Heades and Summes of things then to number the faultes which are almost as many as there are sentences in thys booke more I am sure then there are pages ACcording to my promise made in my boke I haue here set down the iudgement of the later wryters concerning these matters in controuersy betwene vs Wherein because I loue not to translate out of other mens workes whereby I might make myne to grow I haue kept thys moderation that I neither sette down all the wryters nor all their places that I could nor yet of euery singuler matter but the chefest wryters and other of the cheefest poyntes or else of those wherein they are alleadged agaynst vs by M. Doctor and one only place of eche as farre as I could iudge and choose out most direct to that wherefore I haue alleaged it For otherwyse if I would haue spoken of all the poyntes and of the iudgement of all the wryters and gathered all the places that I could they woulde haue bene sufficient matter of an other booke as bigge or rather bigger then thys I must also admonish the Reader that I haue for borne in certeine of these Titles to set downe the iudgements of M. Beza M. Bullinger and M. Gualter because they are comprehended in the Confessyon of the Churches And thus partly vpon those sentences which I haue alleaged in thys booke and partely vpon these Testimonies heere set downe I leaue to the consyderation of all men how truely and iustly it is sayde that the learned wryters of these tymes one or two onely excepted are agaynst vs. 1 That there ought now to be the same regiment of the Church which was in the Apostles tyme. THe confession of the Heluetian Tygurin Berne Geneua Polonia Hungary and Scotland with others in the. 18. chapter speaking of the equality of the ministers sayth that no man may iustly forbyd to returne to the old constitution of the church of God and to receiue it before the custome of man. M. Caluin in hys Institututions 4. booke 3. chapter and 8. section speaking of the auncientes which dyd assist the pastor in euery church sayth that experiēce teacheth that that order was not for one age that thys office of gouernment is necessary to all ages And in the. 12. chapter and first section of the same booke sayth as much of Excommunication and other Ecclesiasticall censures Peter Martyr vpon the third to the Rom. teacheth that although the common wealth chaunge her gouernment yet the church alwayes kepeth hers still Bucer in hys first booke of the kingdome of Christ 15. chapter lamenteth that there were founde amongst those which are counted of the forwardest christians which woulde not haue the same disciplyne vsed now that was in the times of the Apostles obiecting the differences of tymes and of men 2. That one mynister ought not to haue any dominion ouer an other The foresayde Heluetian Confession c. in the seuententh Chapter sayeth that Christ dyd most seuerely prohibite vnto hys Apostles their successors primacy domynion in the 18. Chap. sayth that equall power function in geuen vnto all the mynisters of the church that from the beginning no one preferred him selfe to a nother sauing only the for order some one dyd call thē together propounde the matters that were to be consulted of gathered the voyces c. Musculus in hys Common places in the chap. of the offices of the mynisters of the word sayth that in the Apostolike church the ministers of the word were none aboue an other nor subiect to any heade or president mislyketh the setting vp of any one in higher degree then an other And further he sayth vppon the second chap. of the second Epistle to the Thessalonians that the honor of a byshop being taken from the rest of the mynisters and geuen to one was the first step to the papacie how so euer in other places he speaketh otherwyse 3. That the election of mynisters pertayneth not to one man. The foresayd Heluetian Confession c. in the. 18. Chapter sayth that the mynisters ought to be chosen of the church or by those which are lawfully deputed of the church and afterward ordayned with publike prayers M. Caluin in hys 4. booke of Institutions 3. chap. 15. section sheweth that the Church dyd chuse and that the Apostles dyd monderate the election and confuteth them which vpon the places of Titus and Timothe would proue that the election belongeth to one man. 4. That there ought now to be elders to gouerne the church with the Pastors and Deacons to prouide for the poore Touching Elders the iudgement of M. Caluin hath bene before declared in the first of these propositions M. Beza in hys booke of diuorces page 161. sayeth that the Eldershyp of the church ought to be where there is a Christian magistrate Touching Deacons M. Caluin 4. boke 3. chap. 9. section after that hee had described what deacons the churches had in the Apostles tymes sayeth that we after their example ought to haue the lyke M. Beza in the. 5. cap. and. 23. section of hys confessions sheweth that the office of the distribution of the goodes of the church is an ordinary function in a church lawfully constituted which office in the. 30. he calleth the Deaconship P. Martyr vpon the. 12. to the Rom. speaking of the Elders which did asist the pastor in euery Church of the Deacons lamenteth that thys order is so fallen out of the church that the names of these functions do skarce remayne M. Bucer in hys first booke of the kingdome of Christ for the auncientes of the Church sayeth that the number of the Elders of euery church ought to be encreased according to the multitude of the people and in the. 14. chap. of the same booke sayeth that thys order of Deaconshyppe was relygiously kept in the church vntill it was driuen out by Antichrist 5. That excommunication pertayneth not to any one man in the Church M. Caluin in hys Institutions 4. booke and. 11. chap. and. 6. section teacheth that Excommunication pertayneth not to one man that it was too wicked a fact that one man taking the authoritie which was common to other to himselfe alone opened a way to tyranny tooke from the Church her right and abrogated the church Senate ordayned by the spirite of Christ And in the. 12. chap. and. 7. section hee sayeth further that it ought not to be done without the knowledge and approbation of the Church M. Beza in hys confessions 5. chap. 43. section sayeth that thys power of excommunicating is geuen to no one man except it please God to worke extraordinarily Peter Martyr vpon the. 1. to the Corinthes and. 5. chap. sayeth that it is very daungerous to permit so waighty a matter as excommunication to the discretion and will of any one man And therfore both that tyranny might be auoyded and thys censure executed with greater frute
of the poore or of the vniuersitie and that that exces is the cause of diuers disorders in those persons that haue it but that they could not preache truely when they preached whych had great liuings I for my part neuer heard it I thinke you would not be exempted from reprehension of that wherin you fault and therfore I knowe not what you meane by these words the they did not those things them selues which they taught others we profes no such perfection in our liues but that we are oftentimes behinde a great deale in doing of that whych is taught to be our dueties to doe and therefore thinke it necessary that we should be reprehended and shewed our faultes Whereas you say that the Anabaptists accused the ministers for geuing too much to the Magistrates I haue shewed what we geue and if it be too little shew vs and we will amend our fault I assure you it greueth me and I am euen in the beginning weary of turning vp thys dunge and refuting so vaine and friuolous slaunders wythout all shewe and face of truthe and therfore I will be breefe in the rest To the thirde We praise God for this reformation so farre forthe as it is agreeable vnto the word of God we are glad the word of God is preached that the sacraments are ministred that whych is wanting we desire it may be added that whych is ouermuche cutte of and we are not ashamed to profes that we desire it may be done according to the institution of the churches in the Apostles time You your selfe confes that excommunication is abused that no amendment of life appeareth since the preaching of the gospel is an old and generall complaint of all godly ministers in all churches and in all tunes * Esay preached this in the church and of the whole churche and further that they brought for the rotten frute Dauid that the faithfull people were deminished out of the lād that there was none that did good no not one And diuers other of the Prophets haue made greuouser complaints and great charges against the people of God and yet were no Anabaptists nor in the way to Anabaptisme If there be none that eyther haue wrytten or spoken that the church of England is no more the true Churche of Christ then the papisticall churche then besides that there is no truthe in youre tongue there seemeth to be no shame in your forheade if there be any it standeth your good name in hand that you bring them out To the fourth If some of those whych fauor this cause haue ben ouercaryed in part to do things which might haue ben more cōueniently ordered it is against reason that you should therfore charge those which fauor thys cause that you oppugne You would thinke you had wrong if because some of those that fauor that which you fauor in this matter be either free wil men or hold consubstantiation in the Sacrament you shuld be chalenged as free will men or maintainers of consubstantiation If those metings whych they had were permitted vnto them by them that haue authoritie I see nothing why they may not seeke to serue God in puritie and les mixture of hurtfull ceremonies If they were not permitted yet your name of conuenticles whych agreed to the Anabaptists is too lighte and contemptuous to set forth those assemblies wherin I thinke you wil not deny but that the word of God and his sacraments were ministred take you heede that these so reprochfull speaches which you throw out against men reache not vnto God A softer word would haue better becommed you To the fifth I answere as vnto the last clause of the thirde article To the sixth We pretend it not but we propound it and herein we call God to witnes agaynst our owne soules To the seuenth If you do not these things which we say not we wil rather do thē with the Anabaptists then leaue them vndone with you Of our simple heart meaning in thē we haue before proteste◠In the meane season we wil paciently abide vntill the Lord bring our * rightuousnes in thys behalfe vnto light and our lust dealing as the none day Touching our sighing and seldome or neuer laughing you giue occasion after to speake of it vnto the which place I reserue the answer To the eight We are no Stoikes that we should not be touched with the feeling of our grefes if our complaintes be excessiue shewe them and we will abridge them What errors we defend and how you maintaine your part by the word of God it will appeare in the discourse of your boke To the ninthe Their finding fault wythout cause in the ceremonies of baptisme can not barre vs from finding fault where there is cause We allowe of the baptisme of children and hope throughe the goodnes of God that it shall be farre from vs euer to condemne it But to let your slaunderous tong go all the strings wherof ye seme to haue losed that it may the more frely be throwne out and walke against the innocent Where where is the modesty you require in other of not entring to iudge of things vnknowne which dare insinuate to the magistrate that it is lyke they will condemne childrens baptisme which doe baptise them preach they should he baptized and whych did neuer by sillable letter or countenaunce mislike of their baptisme To the. 10. 11. and. 12. I answer as vnto the fifth and for further answer I will refer the reader to those places where occasion shall be geuen to speake of these thyngs againe To the. 13. This is a braunch of the. 8. and added for nothing else but to make vp the tale To the. 14. We feare no shedding of bloud in her maiesties dayes for maintaining that whych we hope we shal be able to proue out of the word of God and wherin we agree with the best reformed churches but certaine of the things which we stād vpon are such as that if euery heare of our head were a life we ought to aforde them for the defence of them VVe bragge not of any the least abilitie of suffering but in the feare of God we hope of the assistance of God his holy spirite to abide whatsoeuer he shall thinke good to try vs with either for profession of thys or any other hys truth whatsoeuer To the. 15. VVe make no seperation from the church we go about to seperate all those thyngs that offend in the church to the end that we being all knit to the sincere truth of the gospell might afterwards in the same bond of truth be more nearely and closely ioyned together VVe endeuor that euery church hauing a lawfull pastor whych is able to instruct all myght be ranged to their proper churches wheras diuers onles they go to other then their owne parishes are like to heare few sermons in the yeare so farre are we from withdrawing men from their ordinary churches and pastors Let
this that the church may ordaine certaine thyngs according to the word of God. But if this epistle and others of M. Bucers with his notes vpon the boke of Common prayer which are so often cited and certaine Epistles of M. Peter Martyr were neuer printed as I can not vnderstand they were then besides that you do vs iniurie whych go about to preiudice our cause by the testimonies of them which we can neither heare nor see being kept close in your study you also do your cause much more iniurie whilest you betray the pouerty and nakednes of it being faine to ransake rifie vp euery darke corner to finde some thing to couer it with Therefore it were good before you toke any benefite of them to let thē come forth and speake their owne testimonies in their owne language and ful out For now you geue men occasion to thinke that there are some other things in their Epistles whych you would be lothe the world should know for feare of fall of that which you would gladly keepe There is no man that fayth that it ought to be permitted to euery person in the church where he is minister to haue such order or discipline or to vse such seruice as he listeth no mā seeketh for it But to haue the order which God hath left in those things which the word precisely appoynteth and in other thyngs to vse that whych shall be according to the rules of S. Paule before recited agreed by the church and constrined by the Prince And whereas you haue euer hitherto geuen the ordering of these thyngs to the churche howe come you nowe to ascribe it to the Bishops you meane I am sure the Bishops as we call Bishops heere in England whereby you fall into the opinion of the papists vnwares which when they haue spoken many things of the churche magnifically at the last they bring it nowe to the Doctors of the church nowe to byshops As forme although I doute not but there be many good men of the Byshoppes and very learned also and therfore very meete to be admitted into that consultation wherin it shal be cōsidered what things are good in the church yet in respect of that office and calling of a bishop which they now exercise I thinke that euery godly learned minister pastor of the churche hath more interest and right in respect of his office to be at that consultation then any bishop or archbishop in the realme for as muche as he hath an ordinarie calling of God function appoynted in the scriptures which he exerciseth and the other hath not But how thys authoritie pertaining to the whole church of making of such orders may and ought to be called to a certaine number that confusion may be auoyded and wyth the consent also of the churches to auoyde tyrannie it shall appeare in a more proper place where we shall haue occasion to speake of the eldership or gouernment in euery churche and of the communion and societie or participation and entercommuning of the churches togither by councels and assemblies prouinciall or nationall Answere till the Admonition from the beginning of the 30. page VNto the places of Deuteronomic whych proue that nothyng oughte to be done in the churche but that whych God commaundeth and that nothyng should be added nor diminished First you answere that that was a precept geuen to the Iewes for that time whych had all things euen the least prescribed vnto them I see it is true whych is sayd that one absurditie graūted a hundred follow For to make good that things ought to be done besides the scripture and worde of God you are driuen to runne into parte of the error of the Manichees whych say that the olde Testament pertaineth not vnto vs nor bindeth not vs For what is it else then to say that these two places serued for the Iewes time and vnder the lawe For surely if these two places agree not vnto vs in time of the gospell I knowe none in all the olde Testament whych doe agree and I praye you what is heere sayde whych S. Iohn in the * Apocalipse saythe not where he shutteth vp the newe Testament in thys sorte I protest vnto euery mā whych heareth the prophecie of thys boke that whosoeuer addeth any thing to it the Lorde shall adde vnto him the plagues whych are wrytten in it and whosoeuer taketh away any thing from it the Lord shall take away his portion out of the boke of life and out of the things that are wrytten in it which admonition if you say pertaineth to that boke of the Apocalipse only yet you must remember that the same may be as truely sayd of any other boke of the scripture Then you are driuen to saye that the Iewes vnder the lawe had a more certaine direction and consequently a readyer waye then we haue in the time of the gospell of the whych time the Prophet sayeth that then a man shoulde not teache his neighbor they shal be so taught of God as if he should say that they that liue vnder the gospel should be all in comparison of that whych were vnder the lawe Doctors And Esay sayth that in the dayes of the gospell the people shall not stande in the outward courtes but he will bring them into the sanctuarie that is to say that they shoulde be all for their knowledge as learned as the Leuites and Priestes whych only had entraunce into it Now if the Iewes had precepts of euery the least action whych told them precisely how they should walke how is not their case in that poynt better then oures whych because we haue in many things but generall rules are to seeke oftentimes what is the will of God whych we should follow But let vs examine their lawes and compare them with oures in the matters pertaining to the church for whereas the question is of the gouernment of the church it is very impertinent that you speake of the iudicialies as though you had not yet learned to distinguishe betweene the Church and common wealth To the ordering and gouerning of the church they had only the moral and ceremoniall law we haue the same morall that they had what speciall direction therfore they enioy by the benefite of that we haue We haue no ceremonies but two the ceremonies or sacraments of Baptisme and of the Lords supper we haue as certaine a direction to celebrate them as they had to celebrate their ceremonies and fewer and les difficulties can rise of oures then of theirs and we haue more plaine and expres doctrine to decide our cōtrouersies then they had for theirs What houre had they for their ordinarie and daily sacrifices was it not left to the order of the church what places were apointed in their seuerall dwellings to heare the woorde of God preached continually when they came not to Ierusalem the word was commaunded to be preached but no mention made what
muste remember that S. Luke coulde not learne to speake of them that came two or three hundreth yeares after him but he borrowed thys phrase of speache of those that were before him and therfore speaketh of elections as they did So that you see thys shift will not serue Let vs therfore see your third whych is that although the Churches consent was then required yet is it not nowe and that it is no general rule no more then say you that all things should be therfore common now because they were in the Apostles time The authors of the Admonition wyth their fauourers muste be counted Anabaptists no one word being shewed whych tendeth thervnto you must accuse them whych confirme that foundation whereof they build their communitie of all things whych is one of their cheefe heresies If I shoulde saye nowe that you are like to those that rowe in a boate whych although they loke backwards yet they thrust a nother way I should speake with more likelihode thē you haue done For althoughe you make a countenaunce and speake hotely against Anabaptistes yet in deede you strengthen their handes wyth reasons But I will not say so neither doe I thinke that you fauoure that secte but only the whirlewinde and tempest of your affection bent to maintaine this estate whereby you haue so great honoure and wealth driueth you vpon these rocks to wracke your selfe on and others For I pray you what communitie is spoken of either in the second thirde or fourth of the Actes whych ought not to be in the church as long as the world standeth was there any communitie but as touching the vse and so farre for the as the pore brethren had neede of and not to take euery man a like was it not in any man his power to sell his houses or landes or not to sell them When he had solde them was it not in euery man his libertie to keepe the money to hymselfe at his pleasure and all they that were of the Church did not sell their possessions but those whose heartes the Lord touched singularly wyth the compassion of the neede of others and whome God had blessed wyth aboundance that they had to serue them selues and helpe others and therefore it is reckened as a rare example that * Barnabas the Cyprian and Leuite did sel hys possessions and brought the price to the feete of the Apostles And as for Ananias Saphira they were not punished for because they brought not the price of their possessions to the Apostles but because they lyed saying that they had brought the whole when they had brought but parte And to be shorte is there any more done there then S. Paule prescribeth to the Corinthians and in them to all churches to the worldes end After he had exhorted to liberalitie towardes the pore churche in Ierusalem not sayth he that other should be releeued and you oppressed but vpon like condition at this time your aboundance supplieth their lacke that also their aboundance maye be for youre lacke that there might be equalitie as it is wrytten he that gathered much had nothing ouer and he that gathered little had not the les Surely it were better you were no Doctor in the Churche then that the Anabaptistes should haue suche holde to bring in their communitie as you geue them In summe the Apostolike communitie or the Churches in their time was not Anabaptisticall Vnto the place of the seconde Epistle to the Corinthians and. 8. chapter you aske what maketh that to the election of the ministers but why doe not you say heere as you did in the other place that the apostle meaneth nothing els but the putting on of the handes of them whych ordained for the same worde cheirotonetheis is heere vsed that was there and this place dothe manifestly and wythout all contradiction conuince your vaine signification that you make of it in the other place and the vntruthe saying that the scripture vseth thys woorde for a solemne manner of ordering ministers by putting on of handes For heere it is sayde that he that was ioyned wyth Paule was cheirotonetheis by the church and it is manifest that the imposition of hands was not by the church people but by the elders and ministers as it appeareth in s Paule to Timothe Now to come to that which you make so light of for say you how foloweth this the church chose Luke or Barnabas to be cōpanion of Paule his iourney Ergo the churches must chuse their ministers It followeth very well for if it were thought◠meete that Saynte Paule shoulde not chuse hym selfe of hys owne authoritie a companion to helpe hym being an Apostle is there any archbyshoppe that shall dare take vppon him to make a minister of the gospell being so many degrees bothe in authoritie and in all giftes needefull to discerne and trye oute or take knowledge of a sufficient minister of the gospell inferioure to S. Paule And if S. Paule woulde haue the authoritye of the churche to ordaine the Minister that shoulde ayde hym in other places for the gathering of reliefe of the poore Churches howe muche more did he thincke it meete that the Churches shoulde chuse their owne Minister whych should gouerne them Which things may be also sayde of the election in the first of the Actes for there the Churche firste chose two whereof one shoulde be an Apostle whych shoulde not be Minister of that Church but should be sent into all the world So that alwayes the Apostles haue shunned to do any thing of their owne willes without the knowledge eyther of those churches where they instituted any gouernors or if it were for the behofe of those places where there were no churches gathered yet would they ordaine none but by the consent of some other churche whych was already established You will not deny but that in the Apostles time and S. Cyprians time in many places the consent of the people was required shewe any one place where it was not Dothe not S. Luke say that it was done churche by churche that is in euery churche And where you say it endured but to S. Cyprians time it shall appeare to all men that it endured in the churche a thousande yeare and more after hys time And it appeareth in that he vsed it not as a thing indifferent but necessary and argueth the necessitye of it of the place of the first of the Acts which is alleaged by the authors of the Admonition and so they are not their argumentes that you throwe vp so scornefully saying how followeth this and this what proueth it but Cyprians whome by their sides you thrust throughe and so vnreuerently handle But you say these examples are no generall rules Examples of all the Apostles in all churches and in all purer times vncontrolied and vnretracted eyther by any the primitiue and purer churches or by any rule of the scripture I thinke ought to stand If
For if it be false as it is most false then there is no difference heere betwene the Apostles times and oures Doth not the whole course of the scriptures declare and hath it not bene proued that there was none that tooke vppon hym the ministerie in the churche but by lawfull calling what is thys but to cast dust and dirte of the fairest and beautifullest image that euer was to make a smokie disfigured euill proportioned image to seeme beautifull to ouerthrow the Apostles buildings of golde and siluer and precious stones to make a cottage of wode straw and stubble to haue some estymation which could haue none the other standing For in effecte so you doe when to vpholde a corrupte vse that came in by the tyrannie of the pope you goe about to discredite the orders and institutions which were vsed in the Apostles times and that with such manyfest vntruthes To the next section in the. 45. page Musculus also c. THe place is too common which you assigne you had I am sure the booke before you you might haue tolde where the place was and in what title But that place of Musculus in the title of the magistrate is answered by hym selfe in the same booke where he entreateth of the election of the ministers For going about as it seemeth to satisfie some of their ministers which were brought in doubt of their calling because they were not chosen by their churches speaking of the vse of the church in chusing their minister he sayth thus First it must be playnly cōfessed that the ministers were in times past chosen by consent of the people and ordayned and confirmed of the semores Secondarily that that forme of election was Apostolicall and lawfull Thirdly that it was conformable to the libertie of the churche and that thrusting the pastor vpon the church not being chosen of it doth agree to a church that is not free but subiect to bondage Fourthly that thys fourme of choise by the church maketh much bothe to that that the minister may gouerne hys flocke with a good conscience as also that the people may yeelde them selues to be eastyer ruled then when one commeth agaynst their willes vnto them And to conclude all these he sayeth that they are altogether certayne and such as can not be denyed After he sayth that the corrupt estate of the churche and religion driueth to alter this order and to call the election to certayne learned men which shoulde after be confirmed of the Prince And that it may yet more clearely appeare that hys iudgement is nothing lesse then to confirme thys election he setteth downe their election in Bernland which he approueth and laboureth to make good as one which although it doth not fully agree with the election of the prymitine churche yet commeth very neare vnto it As that not one man but all the ministers in the citie of Berne doe chuse a pastor when there is any place voyde Afterward he is sent to the Senate from the which if he be doubted of he is sent agayne to the ministers to be examined and then if they fynde him meete he is confirmed of the Senate which standeth of some number of the people and by the most part of their voyces By these things it appeareth that this election of the minister by the people is lawfull and Apostolike and confessed also by him that those that are otherwise bring with them subiection vnto the church and seruitude and cary a note and marke of corruption of religion Last of all that he goeth about to defende the election vsed in the churches where he was minister by this that it approched vnto the election in the primitiue Churche Nowe what cause there may bee that we should bring the church into bondage or take away that order wherby both the mynister may be better assured of hys calling and the people may the willinglyer submit them selues vnto their pastoures and gouernoures or what cause to depart from the Apostolike forme of the choise of the pastor being lawfull I confesse I know not and would be glad to learne To assigne the cause hereof vnto the christian magistrate to say that these things can not be had vnder hym as you vnder maister Muscuius name doe affirme is to doe great iniurie vnto the office of the magistrate which abridgeth not the liberty of the churche but defendeth it dimmisheth not the pastor his assurance of his calling but rather encreaseth it by establishing the ordinary callings only which in the time of persecution sometimes are not so ordinary withdraweth not the obediēce of the people from the pastor but vrgeth it where it is not constrayneth it wher it is not volūtary And seeing that also Musculus sayth that these forced elections are remedies for corruption of relygion and disordered states what greater dishonoure can there be done vnto the holye institution of God in the ciuile gouernoure then to say that these forced elections without the consent of the people must be where there is a christian Magistrate as thoughe there coulde be no pure religion vnder him when as in deede it may be easely vnder him pure which can hardly and with great daunger be pure without him And when as it is sayd that the churches consent should be had in the election of the minister we doe not denye the confirmation of the elections vnto the godly ciuill magistrate and the disanulling of them if the church in chusing and the ministers in directing shall take any vnfitte man so that yet he doe not take away the libertie from the church of chusing a more conuenient man. So that you see that by Musculus your witnesse reasons this enforced election without the consent of the people is but corrupt and so ought not to be in the churche And that although it hath bene borne withall yet it must be spoken agaynst and the lawfull forme of election laboured for of all those that loue the truth and the sinceritie therof To the next section in the. 46. page NOw you would proue that thys election of ministers by one man was in the Apostles time But you haue forgotten your selfe which sayde a little before that this election by the church was not only in the Apostles times but also in the tyme of Cyprian now you say otherwise And if the election of the ministery by the church agree so wel with the time of persecution and when there is no christian Magistrate how commeth it to passe that in those dayes when persecution was so hotte and there were no such Magistrates that S. Paule would haue the election by one man and not by the church Besydes that if this be S. Paule hys commaundement that the byshop should only chuse the minister why doe you make it an indifferent thing and a thing in the power of the church to be varyed by times for this is a flarte commaundement Thus you see you throwe downe with one
conscience For if so be that the white apparell of the minister haue any force either to moue the people or the minister vnto greater purenes or to any other godlynes whatsoeuer then it is that whych ought to be commaunded and to be obeyed of necessity and to be retained althoughe the contrarye were forbidden And then also if there be a vertue in a white garment and the signification therof be so strong to worke godlynes it were meete that order were taken that the whitest clothe should be bought that it should be often at the least euery weeke once washed by a very good launder and wyth sope for if the white helpe more white helpeth more and that whych is moste white helpeth moste of all to godlynes Although the church haue authoritye to make ceremonies so they be according to the rules before recited of Gods glory and profiting the congregation I coulde for all that neuer yet learne that it had power to giue newe significations as it were to institute newe sacramentes And by this meanes is taken cleane awaye from vs the holde whych we haue against the papistes whereby against all the goodly shewes whych they make by the coloure of these significations we say that the word of God and the sacramentes of baptisme and of the supper of the Lord are sufficient to teache to admonishe and to put vs in remembrance of all duetye whatsoeuer So we are nowe come to the superstition of the Grecians for as they will haue neyther grauen nor carued image in their Churches but painted so we wil nether haue grauen nor carued nor painted but wouē And truely I see no cause why we may not haue as wel holy water holy bread if this reason whych is here be good for I am sure the significations of them are as gloryous as this of the surplice and call to remembraunce as necessarye things And if it be sayde that it maye not be least the number of ceremonies shoulde be to too great it may be easely answeared that these whych we haue may be taken away and those set in place of them And therefore althoughe the surplice haue a blacke spot when it is whitest yet is it not so blacke as you make it wyth your white significations nor the cause so euill as you defend it If you pres me with M. Martyrs and M. Bucers authoritye I first say they were men therefore although otherwise very watchfull yet such as slept some times And then I appeale from their Apocryphas vnto their knowne wrytings and from their priuate letters vnto their publike recordes M. Doctor proceedeth to proue that they are signes and shewes of good and not of euill as the authors of the admonition alleage To the proufe wherof although according to his manner he repeateth diuers things before alleaged yet the summe of all he hath comprehended in an argument whych is that for so muche as the ministers are good whych weare them therfore they are also good and because the ministers whereof the apparell are notes and markes be good therefore those be good notes and good markes so the reason is they are notes and notes of good ministers therefore they be good notes of the ministers So I will proue the names of idolles to be fit and conuenient names for good men to be called by Beltshaser Shaddrake Misacke and Abed-nego were names of Daniell and hys three companions and they were the names of good men therefore they are good names of men And so the names of the Babylonian Idols are by thys reason of M. Doctor iustified to be good names Again the golden calfe was a signe Also it was a signe of the true God therefore it was a true signe of god Concerning the notes of ciuill professions and what difference is betweene those and thys cause I haue spoken before You say the cause of discorde is not in the apparell but in the mindes of men You meane I am sure those that refuse the apparell but if you make them authors of discord because they consent not wyth you in wearing do you not see it is as soone sayde that you are the causers of discorde because you doe not consent wyth those whych were not for as there should be vnitie in that poynte if all did weare that apparell so should there be if all did weare none of it It is a very vnequall comparison that you compare the vse of thys apparell wyth the vse of wine and of a sworde whych are profitable and necessary but it is more intollerable that you match it wyth the word of god I could throwe it as farre downe as you lifte it vp but I will not doe so Thys only I will saye if there were no harme in it and that it were also profitable yet for as much as it is not commaunded of God expresly but a thing as you say indifferent and notwithstanding is cause of so many incommodities and so abused as I haue before declared it ought to be sufficient reason to abolish them seing that the brasen serpent whych was instituted of the Lorde him selfe and contained a profitable remembrance of the wonderfull benefite of God towardes hys people was beaten to pouder when as it began to be an occasion of falling vnto the children of Israel and seeing that S. Paule after the loue feastes whych were kepte at the administration of the Lords supper and were meanes to nourishe loue amongst the churches were abused drawne to an other vse thē they were first ordained did vtterly take them away commaund that they shuld not be vsed any more The rest of that whych followeth in this matter is nothing else but either that whych hath bene often times repeated or else reprochefull words or vniust accusations of contempt of magistrates wythout any proufe at all and therfore are suche as eyther are answered or whych I will not voutchsafe to answere especially seeing that I meane not to giue reproche for reproche and reuiling for reuiling and seeing that I haue before protested of our humble submission and louing feare or reuerence whych we beare to the Prince and those whych are appoynted magistrates vnderneathe her And therfore I will conclude that for so muche as the ceremonies of Antichristianitie are not nor can not be the fittest to sette forthe the gospell and for that they are occasions of fall to some of hinderance to other some of griefe and alienation of mindes vnto others the contrary of all which ought to be considered in establishing of things indifferent in the churche therefore neyther is thys apparell fittest for the minister of the gospell and if it were yet considering the incommodities that come of the vse of it it should be remoued To the next section in the. 62. and. 63. pages YOu know they allow studying for sermones and amplifying and expoūding of the scriptures why then do you aske But by thys question you would haue
chuse an other conceyueth the prayer wherby the helpe of God in that election and his direction is begged and no doubt executed the residue of the things which pertayned vnto the whole action In the seconde of the actes all the Apostles are accused of drunkennesse Peter answeareth for thē all wypeth away the infamy they were charged with But you will say where are the voyces of the rest which did chuse Peter vnto thys First you must know that the scripture setteth not downe euery circumstāce then surely you do Peter great iniury that aske whether he were chosen vnto it For is it to bee thought that Peter would thrust in hym selfe to this office or dignitie without the consent and allowance of hys fellowes and preuent hys fellowes of thys preheminence vndoubtedly if it hadde not beene done arrogantly yet it must needes haue a great shew of arrogancye if hee hadde done thys without the consent of hys fellowes And heere you shall heare what the Scholiast sayth which gathereth the iudgement of Greke diuines hora speaking of Peter panta meta koines auton gnomes poiounta Behold how he doth all with their common consent And if any man hereupon will say that Peter exercised domination ouer the rest or gate any archapostleship beside that the whole story of the actes of the apostles and his whole course of life doth refute that the same Scholiast which I made mention of in the same place sayth he did nothing archikos imperiously nothing meta exousias with domynion or power Further I will admonishe him to take heede least if he striue so sore for the archbyshop he slide or euer he be aware into the tentes of the papistes which vse these places to proue that Peter had authoritie and rule ouer the rest of the apostles And that it may bee vnderstanded that thys moderate rule voyde of all pompe and outward shew was not perpetuall nor alwayes tyed vnto one man which were the last poyntes of the cautions I put before turne vnto the 15. of the Actes where is shewed how with the rest of the church the apostles and amongst them Peter being assembled to decide a great controuersie Iames the Apostle and not Peter moderated and gouerned the whole action when as after other had sayd their iudgementes and namely Paule and Barnabas Peter he in the ende in the name of all pronounced the sentence and that whereof the rest agreed and had disputed vnto and the residue rested in that iudgement the which also may likewyse appeare in the 21. of the Actes This is hee which is called the byshop in euery church thys is he also whome Iustin wherof mention is made afterwardes calleth proestos And finally thys is that great archbishoppricke and great bishoppricke that M. Doctor so often stumbleth on This order and preheminence the Apostles time and those that were neare them kept and the nearer they came to the apostles times the nearer they kept them to this order and the farther of they were from those times vntill the discouering of the sonne of perdition the further of were they from thys moderation and nearer to that tyranny and ambitious power which oppressed and ouerlayde the churche of God. And therefore maister Caluin doth warely say that one amongst the apostles indefinitely not any one singular person as Peter had the moderation and rule of the other and further shadoweth out what rule that was by the example of the consul of Rome whose authoritie was to gather the senate together to tell of the matters which were to be handled to gather the voyces to pronounce the sentence And although the Antichrist of Rome had peruerted all good order and taken all libertie of the church into hys the Cardinalles Archbishops and Byshoppes handes yet there are some colde and lyght footinges of it in our synodes which are holden with the parliament where amongst all the mynisters which are assembled out of all the whole realme by the more part of voyces one to chosen which should goe before the rest propounde the causes gather the voyces and bee as it were the mouth of the whole company whome they terme the prolocutor Suche great force hath the truthe that in the vtter ruines of Popery it could neuer be so pulled vp by the rootes that a man coulde neuer know the place thereof no more or that it shoulde not leaue suche markes and printes behinde it whereby it myght afterwardes recouer it selfe and come agayne to the knowledge of men Now you see what authoritie we allow amongst the ministers both in their seuerall churches or in prouinciall sinodes or nationall or generall or what so euer other meetinges shall be aduised of for the profite and edifying of the church and withall you see that as we are farre from thys tyranny and excessiue power which now is in the church so we are by the grace of God as farre from confusion and disorder wherein you trauell so much to make vs to seeme giltie M. Doctor reasoneth agayne that Paule an Apostle and in the highest degree of ministerie was superior to Timothe and Titus Euangelistes and so in a lower degree of mynisterie therefore one mynister is superior to an other one byshop to an other byshop whych are all one office and one function As if I shuld say my Lord Mayor of London is aboue the sherifes therfore one sherife is superior to an other Again an other argumēt he hath of the same strēgth Titus being an Euangelist was superior to al the pastors in Crete which was a degree vnder the Euangelists therfore one pastor must be superior vnto an other pastor And that he was superior he proueth because he had authority to ordaine pastors so that the print of the archbyshop is so deepely set in his head that hereof he can imagine nothing but that Titus shuld be archbishop of all Crete I haue shewed before how these words are to be taken of S. Paule and for so much as M. Doctor burdeneth vs wyth the authority of Caluin so often I wil send him to Caluins owne interpretation vpon this place wher he sheweth the Titus did not ordaine by his owne authority for s. Paul wold not graunt Titus leaue to do that whych he him self wold not and sheweth that to say that Titus should make the election of pastors by him selfe is to giue vnto hym a princely authority and to take away the election from the church and the iudgement of the insufficiency of the minister from the company of the pastors whych were sayeth he to prophane the whole gouernment of the church I maruell therfore what M. doctor meaneth to be so busy wyth M. Caluin and to seke confirmation of his archbyshop and byshop at him whych wold haue shaken at the naming of the one and trembled at the office of the other onles it be because he would faine haue hys plaister where he receiued hys wound but I dare assure him
bowes because the Paganes dyd vse so and that they should not rest from their laboures those dayes that the paganes dyd that they should not keepe the first day of euery moneth as they dyd * An other councell decreed that the christians should not celebrate feastes on the birth dayes of the Martyrs because it was the maner of the heathen whereby it appeareth that both of singulare men and of councels in making or abolyshing of Ceremonies heede hath beene taken that the Christians shoulde not be lyke vnto the Idolaters no not in those things which of them selues are most indifferent to be vsed or not vsed It were not harde to shewe the same considerations in the seuerall things which are mentioned of in thys admonition as for example in the ceremonies of prayer which is heere to bee handled wee reade that Tertullian would not haue the Christians sitte after they had prayed because the idolaters dyd so but hauing shewed thys in generall to be the pollicy of God first and of hys people afterwarde to put as muche difference as can be commodiously betwene the people of God and others whych are not I shal not neede to shewe the same in the particulares Furthermore as the wisedome of God hathe thoughte it the best way to keepe hys people from infection of idolatry to make them most vnlike the idolaters so hath the same wisedome of God thought good that to kepe hys people in the vnity of the truth there is no better way then that they should be moste like one to an other and that as much as possibly may be they shuld haue all the same ceremonies And therfore S. Paule to establishe this order in the church of Corinth that they shoulde make their gatherings for the pore vpon the firste day of the Saboth whych is our sunday alleageth thys for a reason that he had so ordained in other churches so that as children of one father and seruauntes of one family he will haue all the churches not only haue one diet in that they haue one word but also weare as it were one liuery in vsing the same ceremonies Thys rule did the great councell of Nice follow when it ordained y where certaine at the feast of Pentecost did pray kneeling that they should pray standing the reason wherof is added whych is that one custome oughte to be kepte throughout all the churches It is true that the diuersity of ceremonies ought not to cause the churches to dissent one wyth an other but yet it maketh much to the auoyding of dissention that there be amongst them an vnity not only in doctrine but also in Ceremonies Nowe we see plainely that as the forme of oure seruice and Leyturgie commeth to neare that of the papistes so it is farre different from that of other churches reformed and therfore in bothe these respectes to be amended An other faulte there is in the whole seruice or Lyturgie of Englande for that it maintaineth an vnpreaching ministery and so consequently an vnlawfull ministery I say it maintaineth not so muche in that it appoynteth a number of psalmes and other prayers and chapters to be red whych may occupye the time whych is to be spent in preaching wherin notwythstanding it ought to haue bene more wary considering that the deuil vnder this coloure of long prayer did thus in the kingdome of antichriste banish preaching I say not so much in that poynt as for that it requireth necessarily nothyng to be done by the minister whych a childe of ten yeare olde can not doe as well and as lawfully as that man wherewyth the boke contenteth it selfe Neyther can it be shifted in saying this is done for want of able men to be ministers for it may be easely answeared that first the want of sufficient ministers ought to be no cause for men to breake the vnchāgeable lawes of God whych be that none maye be made minister of the churche whych can not teache that none minister the sacraments whych do not preache For althoughe it might be graunted whych thing I woulde not denye no not when there are enough sufficient ministers that they may appoynt some godly graue man whych can do nothing else but reade to be a reader in the churche yet that may not be graunted that they maye make of one that can doe nothyng but reade a minister of the gospell or one whych may haue power to minister the sacramentes Besides that howe can they say that it is for want of sufficient ministers when as there be put out of the ministerye men that be able to serue God in that calling and those put in their roumes whych are not able when there are numbers also whych are fit to serue and neuer sought for nor once required to take any ministery vpon them If therfore it were lawfull to plead want of able ministers for this dumbe ministery whych is altogither vnlawfull yet woulde thys plea neuer be good vntill suche time as bothe those were restored whych are put out and all other sought forth and called vpon whych are fit for that purpose Againe it can not be sayde iustly that they haue taken these reading ministers vntill suche time as better may be gotten for if the church could procure able ministers and should desire that they mighte be ordained ouer them they can not obtaine that considering that these reading ministers haue a free hold and an estate for terme of their liues in those churches of the whych they are such ministers so that by thys meanes the sheepe are not only committed to an idoll shepheard I might say a wolfe and speake no otherwise then Aug. speaketh in that a not preaching minister hath entrance into the church but the dore also is shutte vpon him and sparred against any able minister that might haply be found oute There is a third fault whych likewise appeareth almost in the whole body of this seruice and Liturgie of England and that is that the profit whych might haue come by it vnto the people is not reaped Whereof the cause is for that he whych readeth is not in some places heard and in the most places not vnderstāded of the people through the distance of place betweene the people and the minister so that a great part of the people can not of knowledge tell whether he hathe curssed them or blessed them whether he hath red in Latine or in English all the whych riseth vpon the words of the boke of seruice whych are that the minister should stand in the accustomed place For therevpon the minister in saying morning and euening prayer sitteth in the chauncell wyth hys backe to the people as thoughe he had some secreate talke wyth God whych the people myghte not heare And herevpon it is likewise that after morning prayer for saying a nother number of prayers he climeth vp to the further end of the chauncel and runneth as farre from the people as the wall wil
of certen that haue bene killed thereby you mighte as well bryng in a prayer that men may not haue falles frō their horses may not fal into the hands of robbers may not fall into waters and a number such more sodaine deathes wherwith a greater number are taken away then by thundrings or lightnings and such like and so there should be neuer any end of begging these earthly cōmodityes whych is contrary to the forme of prayer appoynted by our sauioure Christe And wheras you alledge the petition of the Lords prayer deliuer vs from euill to proue this prayer against Thunder c. besides that all the commodities and discommodities of thys life are prayed for and prayed against in that petition whereby we desire oure daily breade it is very straunge to apply that to the thunder that is vnderstanded of the deuill as the article apo tou ponerou dothe declare And that it is a maruellous cōclusion that for so much as we ought daily and ordinarily and publikely desire to be deliuered from the Deuill Ergo we oughte daily and ordinarily and publikely desire to be deliuered from thunder It is one thing to correct Magnificat and an other thing to shew the abuse of it And therfore I see no cause why you should vse this allusion betwene Magnificat significat vnles it be for that you purposing to set out all your learning in thys boke wold not so much as forget an old rotten prouerb whych trotted amongst the monkes in their cloisters of whome I may iustly say whych Tullie sayd in a nother thyng Nec quicquam ingenium potest monasterium that is the cloister coulde neuer bring forthe any witty thing for heere although there be Rythmus yet it is sine ratione As these are diuers things more then ought to be conueniently so wante there some things in the prayers There are prayers set forthe to be sayde in the common calamities and vniuersal scourges of the realme as plague famine c. and in dede so it ought to be by the word of God ioyned wyth a publike fast commaūded not only when we are in any calamity but also when any the churches round about vs or in any countrey receiue any generall plague or greeuous chastisement at the Lordes hand But as suche prayers are needefull whereby we beg release from our distresses so there ought to be as necessary prayers of thāks geuing whē we haue receiued those things at the Lords hand whych we asked in our prayers And thus much touching the matter of the prayers eyther not altogither sound or else too much or too little Concerning the fourme there is also to be misliked A great cause wherof is the folowing of the forme vsed in Popery against whych I haue before spoken For whilest that seruice was set in many poynts as a paterne of this it cometh to pas that in stead of suche prayers as the primitiue churches haue vsed those that be reformed now vse we haue diuers short cuts shreddings whych may be better called wishes then prayers And that no man thinke that thys is some idle fancie that it is no matter of weight what forme of prayer we vse so that the prayers be good it must be vnderstanded that as it is not sufficient to preach the same doctrine whych our sauior Christ hys apostles haue preached vnles the same forme of doctrine and of teaching be likewise kept so is it not enough that the matter of our prayer be such as is in the word of God vnles that the forme also be agreeable vnto the formes of prayers in the scripture Now we haue no such formes in the scripture as that we shuld pray in .ij. or .iij. lines and thē after hauing red a while some other thing come and pray as much more and so to the .xx. and .xxx. time wyth pauses betweene If a man shoulde come to a Prince and keepe suche order in making hys petitions vnto hym that hauing very many things to demaund after he had demaunded one thing he would stay a long time and then demaunde an other and so the thirde the prince myght well thinke that eyther he came to aske before he knew what he had nede of or that he had forgotten some pece of hys sute or that he were distracted in hys vnderstanding or some other such like cause of the disorder of his supplication And therfore how much more conuenient were it that according to the manner of the reformed churches first the minister wyth an hūble and general confession of faults shuld desire the assistance of the Lord for the frutefull handling and receiuing of the word of God and then after that we haue heard the Lord speake vnto vs in hys worde by hys minister the church should likewise speake vnto the Lord and present all those petitions and sutes at once bothe for the whole churche and for the Prince and all other estates whych shall be thought needefull And if any will say that there are short prayers found in the Actes it may be answeared that S. Luke doth not expres the whole prayers at large but only set downe the summes of them and their cheefe poyntes And further it may be answeared that alwayes those praiers were continued together and not cut off and shred into diuers small peeces An other fault is that all the people are appoynted in diuers places to saye after the minister wherby not only the time is vnprofitably wasted a confused voyce of the people one speaking after an other caused but an opinion bredde in their heads that those only be their prayers whych they say and pronounce with their owne mouthes whych causeth them to geue the les heede to the rest of the prayers whych they reherse not after the minister whych notwithstanding are as well their prayers as those whych they pronounce after the minister otherwise then the order whych is left vnto the church of God dothe beare For God hath ordained the minister to thys ende that as in publike meetings he only is the mouthe of the Lorde from hym to the people euen so he ought to be only the mouthe of the people from them vnto the Lorde and that all the people shoulde attende to that whych is sayde by the minister and in the ende bothe declare their consent to that whych is sayde and there hope that it shall so be and come to pas whych is prayed by the worde Amen as S. Paule declareth in the Epistle to the Corinthians And Iustine Martyr sheweth to haue bene the custome of the churches in hys time Although these blots in the Common prayer be such as may easely enough appeare vnto any whych is not wedded to a preiudicate opinion and that there is no great difficultye in thys matter yet I knowe that thys treatise of prayer will be subiect to many reprehensions and that there will not be wanting some probable coloures also wherby
extremity for the doing whereof the orders that God hath set that it should be done in the congregation by the mynister of the gospell are broken Yes verely And I will further say that although that the infants which dye without baptisme should be assuredly damned which is most false yet ought not the orders which God hath set in his church to be broken after thys sort For as the saluation of men ought to be deare vnto vs so the glory of God which consisteth in that hys orders be kept ought to bee much more deare that if at any tyme the controuersy could be betwene hys glory and our saluation our saluation ought to fall that hys glory may stand Now in the 187. page M. Doctor answeareth heereunto that thys implyeth no more that the saluation is tyed to the sacramentes then when it is taught that infants must be baptysed and not tary vntill they come to the age of discretion Which how truely it is spoken when as the one hath ground of the scripture the other hath none the one approued by the continuall and almost the generall practise of the church the other vsed in the corrupt and rotten estate thereof let all men iudge Therefore for so much as the mynistery of the worde and sacramentes goe together that the mynistery of the word may not be committed vnto women and for that thys euill custome hath rysen fyrst of a false vnderstanding of the scripture and then of a false conclusion of that vntrue vnderstanding which is that they can not be saued which are not baptised and for that the authors them selues of that error did neuer seeke no remedy of the mischeefe in womens or priuate baptim And last of all for that if there were any remedy agaynst that mischefe in such kynde of baptisme yet it ought not to be vsed being agaynst the institution of God hys glory I conclude that the priuate baptisme and by women is vtterly vnlawfull There followeth the priuate communion which is found fault with both for the place wherein it is mynistred for the small number of communicants which are admitted by the bocke of seruice Touching the place before is spoken sufficiently it reasteth to consider of the number But before I come to that I will speake some thing of the causes beginning of receiuing in houses of the mynistring of the Communion vnto sicke folkes It is not to be denyed but that thys abuse is very auncient and was in Iustin Martyrs tyme in Tertullians and Cyprians tyme euen as also there were other abuses crept into the supper of the Lord and that very grose as the mingling of water with wine and therein also a necessitie and great mystery placed as it may appeare both by Iustine Martyr and Cyprian Which I therefore by the way doe admonish the reader of that the antiquity of thys abuse of pryuate communion bee not preiudiciall to the truthe no more then the mingling of water with that opynion of necessitie that those fathers had of it is or oughte to bee preiudiciall to that that wee vse in mynistring the cuppe with pure wine according to the instytution I say therefore that thys abuse was auncient and rose vpon these causes First of all in the prymitiue church the dyscipline of the churche was so seuere and so extreame that if any which professed the truth and were of the body of the church did through infirmitie deny the truth ioyned hym self vnto the idolatrous seruice although he repenting came againe vnto the church yet was he not receiued to the communion of the Lords supper any more And yet lying in extremitie of sickenes and redy to depart thys lyfe if hee dyd require the communion in token that the church had forgeuen the faulte and was reconcyled altogether vnto that person that had so fallen they graunted that he might be partaker of it as may appeare by the story of Serapion Another cause was that which was before alleaged which is the false opynion which they had conceiued that all those were condemned that receiued not the supper of the Lord therfore when as those that were as they called thē cathecumeni which is yong nouices in relygion neuer admitted to the supper or yong children fell sicke daungerously they mynistred the supper of the Lord vnto them least they should want their voyage victuall as they termed it which abuse notwithstanding was neither so auncient as the other nor so generall And there wanted not good men which declared their mislyking and dyd decree agaynst both the abuses agaynst all maner communicating in priuate houses As in the councell of * Laodicea it was ordayned that neyther byshop nor elder shuld make any oblation that was mynister any communion in houses Besides therfore that I haue before shewed the vnlawfulnesse generally of mynistring the sacrament in priuate places seeing that the custome of mynistring thys supper vnto the sicke rose vpon corrupt causes and rotten foundations considering also God be praysed in these times there are none dryuen by feare to renounce the truth whereupon any such excommunication should ensue which in the extremitie of sicknesse should be mitigated after thys sort for no man now that is in extreame sicknesse is cast downe or else assaulted with thys temptation that he is cut of from the church I say these things considered it followeth that thys mynistring of communion in priuate houses to the sicke is vnlawfull as that which rose vpon euil groundes if it were lawfull yet that now in these times of peace when the sicke are not excommunicated there is no vse of it And so it appeareth how little the custome of the olde church doth helpe M. Doctor in thys poynt And as for that he sayth Peter Martyr Bucer doe allow the communion exhibited to the sicke persons when he sheweth that he shal haue answer For wher he saith he hath declared it in an other treatise either the Printer hath left out the treatise or M. Doc. wonderfully forgetteth hym selfe or else he meaneth some odde thing that he hath written layd vp in some corner of his study For surely there is no such saying in all hys boke before nor yet after so far as I can finde Now remayneth to be spoken of the number of communicants that there is fault in the appoynting of the seruice booke not only for that it admitteth in the tyme of plage that one with the mynister may celebrate the supper of the Lord in the house but for that it ordayneth a communion in the church when of a great number which assemble there it admitteth three or fower the abuse and inconuenience whereof may thus bee considered The holy sacrament of the supper of the Lorde is not only a seale and confirmation of the promises of God vnto vs but also a profession of our coniunction as well with Christ our sauiour and with
the magistrate entring into the church the elder shuld be therfore thrust out For the elders office was to admonish seuerally those that dyd amisse to comfort those which he saw weake shaking and to haue neede of comfort to assist the pastor in ecclesiasticall censures of reprehensions sharper or milder as the faultes required also to assist in the suspēsions from the supper of the Lord vntill some triall were had of the repentance of that party which had confessed hym selfe to haue offended or else if he remayned stubburne to assist hym in the excommunicatiō These were those things which the elders dyd which forsomuch as they may doe as well vnder a christian magistrate as vnder a tyrant as well in the tyme of peace as in the tyme of persecution it followeth that as touching the office of elders there is no distinction in the tymes of peace and persecution of a christian prince and of a tyrant But I will yet come nearer That without the which the principal offices of charitie can not be excercised is necessary and alwayes to be kept in the church But the office of auncients elders are such as with out which the principal offices of charity can not be exercised therefore it followeth that thys office is necessary That the principall offices of charity can not be exercised without thys order of auncientes it may appeare for that he which hath faulted and amendeth not after he be admonyshed once priuately and then before one wytnes or two can not further be proceeded agaynst according to the commaundement of our sauior Christ onlesse there be in the church auncients and elders therefore thys principall office of charitie which tendeth to the amendment of hym which hath not profited by those two former admonitions can not be exercised without them For it is cōmaunded of our sauiour Christ that in such a case when a brother doth not profite by these two warnings it should be tolde the church Now I would aske who be meant by the church heere if he say by the church are meant all the people then I will aske how a man can conueniently complayne to all the whole congregation or how can the whole congregation conueniently meete to decide of thys matter I doe not deny but the people haue an interest in the excommunication as shall be noted heereafter but the matter is not so farre come for hee must first refuse to obey the admonition of the church or euer they can proceede so farre Well if it be not the people that be meant by the church who is it I heare M. Doctor say it is the pastor but if he will say so and speake so straungely he must warrant it wyth some other places of scripture where the church is taken for one which is as much to say as one man is many one member is a body one alone is a company And besydes thys strangenes of speach it is cleane contrary to the meaning of our sauiour Christ and destroyeth the soueraignitie of the medycine which our sauiour Christ prepared for such a festered sore as would neyther be healed with priuate admonition neyther with admonition before one or two witnesses For as the fault groweth so our sauiour Christ woulde haue the number of those before whome he shoulde be checked and rebuked lykewise grow Therefore from a priuate admonition he ryseth vnto the admonition before two or three from them to the church which if we should say it is but one then to a daungerouser wound should be layde an easier plaister and therefore our sauiour doth not ryse from two to one for that were not to ryse but to fall nor to proceede but to goe backward but to many Seeing then that the church heere is neyther the whole congregation nor the pastor alone it followeth that by the church here he meaneth the pastor with the auncients or elders Or else whome can he meane And as for thys manner of speach wherein by the church is vnderstanded the cheefe gouernours and elders of the church it is oftentymes vsed in the olde Testament from the which our sauiour borowed thys maner of speaking as in Exodus it is sayde That Moses wrought hys myracles before the people when mention is made before only of the elders of the people whome Moses had called together And most manifestly in * Iosue where it is sayde that he that kylled a man at vnwares shall returne vnto the citie vntill he stand before the congregration to be iudged Where by the congregation he meaneth the gouernoures of the congregation for it dyd not appertayne to all to iudge of thys case Lykewyse in the Chronicles and dyuers other places And therefore I conclude that forsomuch as those be necessary and perpetuall which are spoken of in those wordes tell the Church and that vnder those wordes are comprehended the elders or auncientes that the elders and auncientes be necessary and perpetuall officers in the church Furthermore S. Paule hauing entreated throughout the whole first Epistle to Timothe of the orders which ought to be in the church of God and of the gouernment as hym selfe wytnesseth in the third chapter of that Epistle whē he sayeth he wrote that Epistle to teach Timothe how he shoulde behaue hym selfe in the house of God and hauing set forth both byshoppe and elder and deacons as mynisters and officers of the church in the shutting vp of hys Epistle he for the obseruation of all the orders of that Epistle adiureth Timothe and with the inuocation of the name of God strayghtly chargeth hym to obserue those thinges which hee had prescribed in that Epistle I charge thee sayeth hee before God which quickeneth all things and before Iesus Christ which witnessed vnder Pontius Pilate a good profession that thou keepe thys commaundement without spot or blemishe vntill the appearing of our Lord Iesus Christ The wayght of which sentence for the obseruing of those things which are mentioned in thys Epistle that it may be the better vnderstanded I will note the wordes seuerally First therefore it is to be noted that he sayeth I denounce or I charge He doth not say I exhorte or giue counsell leauing it to the lyberty of Timothe Secondarely it is to be noted that he calleth the whole Epistle a commaūdement and therefore it is no permission so that it may be lawfull for the churches to leaue it or to keepe it Thirdly when he maketh mention of the lyuing God and of Christ which witnessed a good profession vnder Pontius Pilate he sheweth that the thinges contayned in thys Epistle are such as for the mayntenaunce thereof wee ought not to doubt to geue our lyues and that they be not such as we ought to kepe so that we haue them without strife and without sweate or easely but such as for the keeping of them if we haue them and for the obtayning of them if we haue them not I will not say
plainly by Ierome whych folowed Ambrose immediatlye who in hys third chapter vpon Esay sayeth that they had also the presbyterie or eldershyp in the church The same myght be shewed by diuers other testimonies whych I omit because that it may appeare by the former treatise touchyng the election of the mynister that thys order of eldershyp continued in the church diuers hundreth yeares after Ambrose tyme euen as long almoste as there was any sound part of the church from the head to the heele Nowe I haue shewed the ignorance it remayneth to shewe howe that eyther M. Doctor was maruellously hym selfe abused or else desyreth to abuse other For if wheras he toke halfe Ambrose sentence he had taken the other halfe wyth hym and had not sodenly stopped hys breath that he should speake no more in steade of a false wytnes agaynst the eldershyp he should haue brought forthe as cleare and as flat a witnes for the proofe of them as a man coulde desire out of an auncient wryter The whole sentence is thys speakyng of thys offyce of the elders although not vpon so good occasyon thus he sayeth Whervpon the sinagoge and after the church had elders wythout whose counsell nothyng was done in the church whych Elders I know not by what neglygence they are worne out onles it be through the slouthfulnes of the doctors or rather throughe theyr pryde whylest they only would seeme to be somewhat Now that I haue shewed the place I wyll say no more I wyl leaue it to M. Doctor to thinke of it in his chamber by hym selfe and so will conclude this question that for so much as thys order is such as wythout whych the principall offices of charity can not be exercysed and that it is that which is commauÌ„ded by the scryptures approued and receyued by all the churches in the Apostles tymes and many hundreth yeares after in the most flouryshing churches bothe in tyme of peace in tyme of persecution and that there are greater causes why it should be in the tyme of peace then in tyme of persecution why rather vnder a christian prince then vnder a tyrant why rather now then in the apostles times that in consyderation of these things the eldershyp is necessary and such an order as the church ought not to be wythout And so also is answeared the third question that for so much as they were church offycers and ouer the people in matters pertayning to God such as watched ouer the soules of men that therfore although they were not pastors to preach the word yet were they no lay men as they terme them but ecclesiasticall persons The rest comprehended in these sections is answeared before being matter whych pertayned vnto the archbyshop Nowe I returne backe agayne to Excommunicacion whych M. Doctor thynketh to be the only disciplyne in the church but he shuld vnderstand that besyde that parte of priuate disciplyne whych is ordinarily and dayly to be exercised by euery one of the pastors elders as Admonition and reprehension there are .iij. princypal parts whych are exercised of them ioyntly and together wherof the first is the election or choyse and the abdication or putting out of Ecclesiasticall officers The second is in excommunication of the stubburne or absolution of the repeÌ„tant The third is the decision of all such matters as doe ryse in the church eyther touchyng corrupt manners or peruerse doctryne As touchyng the election and consequently the throwing out it hath bene shewed before that together wyth the churche the eldershyp hathe the principall sway For the decision of controuersyes wheÌ„ they ryse it may appeare in the. 15. of the Acts that the Presbyterie or Eldershyp of the churche hath to determine of that also Nowe it remayneth heere that whereas M. Doctor sayeth that the Excommunication and consequently the absolution or restoryng to the church agayne doth pertayne only to the minister that I shewe that the Presbyterye or eldership and the whole church also hath interest in the Excommunication and consequently in the absolution or restoryng vnto the churche But heere by the way it is to be noted that in saying that it belongeth to the minister he confesseth the dysorder in our church wherin this power is taken away from the minister and geuen to the byshop and hys offycers Nowe that thys charge of excommunication belongeth not vnto one or to the minyster but cheefely to the eldershyp and pastor it appeareth by that whych the authors of the admonition alledge out of S. Mathewe whych place I haue proued before to be necessarily vnderstaÌ„ded of the elders of the church It is most absurdly sayd of M. doctor in the. 135. page that by the church is vnderstanded eyther my Lordes grace or the byshop of the diocese or the Chancellor or Commissarye And that when a man complayneth vnto one of these he may be well sayd to complayne vnto the church whych is the more vntollerable for that being so straunge a saying and suche as may astonyshe all that heare it he neyther confirmeth it by any reason or lyke phrase of scrypture or by the authority of any godly or approued wryter olde or newe whych notwythstanding he seeketh for so diligently and turneth the commentaries in hys study so painefully when he can haue but one against twentye and but a sillable where he can not haue a sentence It may be the clearlyer vnderstanded that the presbyterie or eldership had the cheefe stroke in this excoÌ„munication if it be obserued that thys was the pollicy and discipline of the Iewes and of the smagogue from whence our sauyoure Christ toke this and translated it vnto this church that when any man had don any thing that they held for a fault that then the same was punished and censured by the Elders of the church according to the quality of the faulte as it maye appeare in S. Mathewe For althoughe it be of some and those very learned expounded of the ciuill iudgement yet for so muche as the Iewes had nothyng to do wyth ciuill iudgements the same being altogyther in the hands of the Romaines and that the word sanâ—drim corrupted of the Greeke worde synedrion whych S. Mathewe vseth is knowen by those that haue skill in the Rabbins and especially the Iewes Talmud to signifye the ecclesiasticall gouernors there can be no doubt but he meaneth the ecclesiasticall censures And if the fault were iudged very great then the sentence of Excommunication was awarded by the same elders as appeareth in S. Iohn And thys was the cause why our sauioure Christe spake so shortly of thys matter in the. 18. of S. Mathew wythout noting the circumstances more at large for that he spake of a thyng whych was well knowne and vsed amongst the Iewes whome he spake vnto And that this was the meaning of our sauioure Christe in those wordes it may appeare by the practise whych is set forthe in the Epistles
to the Corinthians For it is certain that S. Paule dyd bothe vnderstand and obserue the rule of our sauyor Christ But he communicateth thys power of Excommunication wyth the church and therfore it must needes be the meaning of oure sauioure Christe that the excommunication should be by many and not by one and by the church and not by the minister of the church alone For he biddeth the church of Corinthe twise in the first Epistle once by a Metaphore an other time in playne woordes that they should excommunicate the incestuous person By metaphore saying purge out your olde leauen in playne and flat words when he sayeth take away that wicked man from amongst you And in the second Epistle vnderstanding of the repentance of that man he entreateth them that they would receyue hym in again shewing that he was content to release the bonde and chaine of hys excommunication so that they wold do the same and therefore consydering the absolution or reconciliation of the excommunicate dothe pertaine vnto the church it foloweth that the excommunication doth in lyke manner appertaine vnto it Now wheras M. Doctor vpon those wordes of S. Paule that he being absent in body and present in spirite had determined c. concludeth that the ryght of excommunication was in S. Paule and not in the rest it is as much as if he should say S. Paule as much as lay in hym excommunicated therfore s. Paule excommunicated or S. Paule excommunicated therefore the churche dyd not For what if S. Paule dyd excommunicate hym so muche as lay in hym shoulde he therfore haue bene excommunicated if the church of Corinthe and the minyster there would haue admitted hym to the supper and not abstaine from familiare companying wyth hym You will say he should haue bene bounde in heauen and before God although the church of Corinthe had not put hym forthe It is true that the apostles denunciation of Gods vengeance vpon the impenitent sinner is ratifyed in heauen and so shoulde he also haue bene if S. Paule had sayd nothyng and yet S. Paule dyd not excommunicate the incestuous persone but so much as lay in hym and as farre as hys ryght stretched not being therfore yet excommunicated by S. Paule it foloweth that the church had a stroke in the excommunication Againe to proue that the church hath nothyng to doe wyth excommunication it is not enoughe to say that S. Paule had the ryght of excommunication But you shoulde haue shewed that he only had it and then you are manifestly conuicted by S. Paules own words whych ioyneth the church with hym in that excommunication saying that he had decreed that the doer of that fact by hys spirite and them gathered together in the name of Iesus Christe and by hys power should be geuen to sathan And if the right of excommunication were only in S. Paule how is it that you sayd before that it is in the minister of the churche had the minister of the churche of Corinthe nothing to doe And if it were in S. Paule alone why doth he chide wyth the church that they had not already excommunicated hym before he wrote vnto them to signifye hys wyll to excommunicate or if it were in the minister of the church only why wâ—â— S. Paule chide and sharply rebuke the church for that the incestuous man was not cast forthe Why doth he charge the Corinthians wyth that whych was the only fault of the minister An other obiection M. doctor hath out of the .16 of S. Mathew and the 20. of Iohn in whych places because he giueth power to the .xij. to bynde and to lose M. Doctor will conclude that they only haue power to binde and to lose Salomon sayeth that the iust man is first the accuser of himselfe and therfore it behoued M. doctor or euer he shuld haue accused the authors of the Admonition of dalying and vnreuerent handlyng of the scriptures to haue first of all spoken to him selfe and haue strickeÌ„ him selfe vpon the thigh For if thys be not to abuse the scriptures I knowe not what is to abuse them for to let passe that some and of the auncient wryters do expounde the place of S. Mathewe of euery membre of Christ and of as many as haue faith to confes Christ to be the some of God and so by that meanes to haue power of excommunication I say to let that goe M. doctor myght easely know if he would that in that plaâ—e our sauyor Christ speaketh of the binding and losing whych â—â—y the preaching of the word of God standyng in threates and promyses and therefore that binding pertayneth only vnto the ministers to whom the preachyng doth only belong But in the .18 of S. Mathewe where he speaketh of the binding and losing by excommunication and receyuing to the churche agayne there he attributeth thys power vnto the church He hath an other obiection out of S. Paule to Timothe where for that it is sayde that s Paule dyd excommunicate Hymineus and Alexander he concludeth after hys old manner that therfore he only excommunicated But for so much as I haue proued that both the rule of Christ the practise of S. Paule accordyng to that rule be otherwyse it can not be that S. Paule dyd excommunicate hym selfe alone those persons for then he should disagree bothe wyth our sauyor Christ and wyth hym selfe But as I haue shewed before in other ecclesiastical actions and exercises of discipline that one man is sayd to do that which was done of many for because one was moderator of that action or exercise so s. Paul here sayeth that he dyd excommunicate not that he dyd it by hym selfe alone but because he was president cheefe in that action And although it shuld be graunted whych can not that S. Paule dyd excommunicate hymselfe alone being an apostle or for one tyme yet it neyther foloweth that the byshop or minister may do that whych the apostle dyd or that he may do continually the which was done but once and extraordinarily As for the place of Titus the thirde it maketh nothyng to excommunication onles you wold conclude that for that S. Paule biddeth Titus to trouble hymselfe no more wyth confuting an obstinate hereticke therfore he biddeth hym excommunicate an hereticke by hym selfe As touching Bafiles place in the second booke of Offices when the booke commeth forth is Printed then it shal be answered as for me I know of none such that is extant now To the rest I will answer wyth thys protestation that if all men should do contrary to the order of God yet their authority or example ought not to haue the waight of a fether which I haue said before do vnderstand it in all places wher I do not expres it wyth this I come to M. doctors authorities And as for Theodoretus byshop of Laodicea whych Sozomene maketh mention of in hys sixthe booke I finde none suche but there
the glory of God whereof they saw the sacrament before theyr eyes Neyther is the hyghe priest commaunded to be present to thys ende that he should sitte as iudge of that matter but that he might dissolue the difficulties if any rose of the vnderstanding of the law and that hee myght pricke forward and styre vp by admonition the Princes to whome the iudgement appertayned if so bee he should see them colde slacke to reuenge the iniury done vnto the Lorde Which thing may the better appeare in that the handling of the matter is there appoynted not vnto the priestes but vnto the iudges or princes only and so lykewyse of matrimony and diuorse although the iudgement thereof appertayne vnto the ciuill magistrate yet the minister if there be any difficulty in knowing when it is a lawfull contract when the dyuorse is lawfull maye and ought to bee consulted wyth Thus may the common wealth and church enioy both the wysedome learning which is in the mynister things may bee done in that order which God hath appoynted without suche confounding and iombling of offyces and iurisdictions together For although Aristotles obeliscolychnion and Platoes dorydrepanon that is instrumentes seruing to two purposes bee lawfull in offyces of the common wealth where things are more free and left in greater liberty to bee ordered at the iudgement and aduise of men especially consydering that vppon the diuersitye of the formes of common wealthes varietie of regiment may spring yet in the church of God where things are brought to a strayghter rule and which is but one and vniforme the same may not bee suffered And yet euen those coÌ„mon wealth Philosophers which doe lycence vpon occasion that two offices may meete in one man holde that it is best and conuenientest that euery one shoulde haue a particulare charge For Aristotle sayeth that it is most agreeable to nature that hen shoulde be pros hen that is one instrument to one vse And Plato vseth the prouerbe mede heracleis pros duo against those which wil take vpon them diuers vocations and not content them selues with one so that they make the meting of many functions in one man to be a remedy only in extreme neede pouerty of able men And although both be vnlawfull yet as the case standeth in our realme it is more tellerable that the ciuill magistrate should doe the office of a minister then that the minister shuld intermeddle with the function of the magistrate For when the accountes shall be cast it will fall out that there are more sufficient able men to serue in the common wealth of thys realme then in the churche and greater wante in the one then in the other And if besyde thys both authoritie of the werd of God and lyght of reason wee will looke vnto the practise of the church many yeares after the time of the Apostles we shall finde that the church hath bene very carefull from time to time that thys order should bee kept that the ministers shuld not entangle them selues with any thing beside their ministery and those things which the word of God doth necessaryly put vpon them leâ—st the strength of their minde of their body being distracted vnto many thinges they should be the lesse able to accomplishe their ministery vnto the full Which may also partly appeare by that which I haue alledged out of Cyprian which will not permit them so much as to bee executors of a Testament And in one of the Canons whiche are ascribed vnto the Apostles it is enioyned that they should not entangle them selues with worldly offices but attend vpon their Ecclesiasticall affaires Further in the councell of Calcedon it was decreed that none of the clearkes or cleargie as it termeth them shoulde receiue any charge of those which are vnder age vnlesse they were suche as the lawes dyd necessarily cast vpon hym which it calleth inexcusable charges meaning by all lykelyhoode the wardshyp of hys brothers children or some suche thing Where is also declared the cause of that decree to haue beene for that there were certeine mynisters which were stewardes to noble men And in the. 7. canon of the same councell it is decreed that none of the cleargy should either goe to warfare as souldyers or captaynes or should receiue any secular honors and if they dyd they shoulde bee excommunicated or accursed Now I come to M. Doctors argumentes which he bringeth to establish thys disorder And first he sayeth mynisters of the word may not occupy them selues in wordly busines as to be marchants husbandmen craftes men and such like but they may exercise cyuill offices Where first of all I perceiue M. Doctor is of thys mynde that the order of God is not to be broken for small gayne or when a man must take great toyle of the body to breake it but it may be broken with getting of honor and doing of those things which may be done with out soyle with great commendation there it is lawfull to breake it In deede so the Poete but in the person of an vniust and ambition man sayd ei chre adicein tyrannidos heneca chre that is If a man must do vniustly he must doe it to beare rule Secondarely I doe see that M. Doctor will not be shackled and hyndered from hys ministery by a paire of yron fetters but if he can get a payre of golden fetters he is conteÌ„ted to be hampered and entangled from doing the office of ministery committed vnto hym For onles these should be the causes which should moue hym to take the one and refuse the other verely I see none For where as he sayth it is a helpe maynteineth relygion in deede that is the reason of the papistes which M. Caluin confuteth in hys institution And although it be good and necessary to punish vice and iniquity by corporall punishmentes and by cyuill corrections yet it doth no more follow that that should be done by the mynisters then it followeth that for that preaching and mynistring the sacramentes and excommunication are good and necessary therefore the same is fitte to be executed by the cyuill magistrate I graunt the mynisters haue also to punyshe vice for as the cyuill magistrates punishe lyghter faultes with some penalty of money or losse of membre so the churche and the mynister especially with the church hath to punishe faultes by represions and rebukes And as the cyuill magistrate punisheth greater faultes by death so the mynister with other whiche haue intereste hath with the sworde of excommunication power to kill those which be rebellious to cut them from the church as the other doth from the common wealth And if it be a helpe to the mynisters office that he shoulde meddle with ciuill punishmeÌ„ts why shuld it not be a helpe vnto the magistrates office that he should excommunicate and other things pertayning to the ecclesiasticall disciplyne And where as M. Doctor sayth they may
hath prescribed but he hath prescribed no such forme of pollicy that one byshop should be ouer all the mynisters and churches in a whole diocese or one archbyshop ouer all the ministers and churches in a whole prouince therefore thys forme of pollicy which is by archbyshops and such byshops as we haue is not the meanes to knitte vs one to an other in vnitie vnder the domynion of Christ Touching the titles and names of honor which are geuen to the Ecclesiasticall persones with vs and how that princes and cyuill magistrates may and ought to haue the title which can not be geuen to the mynisters I haue spoken before and therefore of archbyshops archdeacons and the lord byshops thus farre To the next section contayned in the. 77. 78. and a peece of the. 79. page BEfore I come to speake of prayers I will treate of the faults that are committed almost thrughout the whole Leyturgy publike seruice of the church of England Whereof one is that which is often obiected by the authors of the admonition that the forme of it is taken from the church of Antichrist as the reading of the Epistles and Gospels so cutte mangled as the most of the prayers the maner of mynistring the Sacraments of Mariage of Buriall Confirmation translated as it were word for word sauing that the grosse erroures and manifest impieties be taken away For although the formes ceremonies which they vsed were not vnlawfull and that they contayned nothing which is not agreeable to the word of God which I would they dyd not yet notwithstanding neyther the worde of God nor reason nor the examples of the eldest churches both Iewishe and christian doe permitte vs to vse the same formes and ceremonies being neyther commaunded of God neyther such as there may not as good as they and rather better be established For the word of God I haue shewed before both by the example of the apostles conforming the Gentiles vnto the Iewes in their ceremonies not contrariwise the Iewes to the Gentiles by that the wisedom of God hath thought it a good way to keepe hys people from the infection of idolatry and superstition to seuere them from idolaters by outwarde ceremonies and therefore hath forbidden them to do things which are in them selues very lawfull to be done Now I will adde thys further that when as the Lord was carefull to seuere them by ceremonies from other nations yet was he not so carefull to seuere them from any as from the * Egiptiās amongst whom they liued from those nations which were next neighbors vnto them because from them was the greatest feare of infection Therefore by this constant perpetuall wisedome which God vseth to keepe his people from idolatry it followeth the the religion of God should not only in matter substance but also as far as may be informe fashion differ from the of the idolaters especially the papistes which are round about vs and amongst vs For in deede it were more safe for vs to conforme our indifferent ceremonies to the Turkes which are far of then to the papistes which are so neare Common reason also doth teach that contraries are cured by their contraryes now Christianitie and Antichristianitie the gospell and popery be contraries therefore antichristianitie must be cured not by it selfe but by that which is as much as may be contrary vnto it So that a medled mingled estate of the order of the gospell the ceremonies of popery is not the best way to banish popery And therfore as to abolishe the infection of false doctrine of the papistes it is necessary to establish a diuers doctrine to abolish the tirāny of the popish gouernment necessary to plant the discipline of Christ so to heale y infection y hath crept into mens myndes by reason of the popish order of seruice it is meete that the other order were put in the place thereof Philosophie which is nothing else but reason teacheth that if a man will draw one from vice which is an extreeme vnto vertue which is the meane that it is the best way to bring hym as far from that vice as may be and that it is safer and lesse harme for him to be led somewhat too farre then he shuld be suffered to remayne within the borders and contines of that vice wherewith he is infected As if a man would bring a droncken man to sobrietie the best and nearest way is to cary hym as farre from hys excesse in druicke as may be and if a man could not keepe a meane it were better to fault in prescribing lesse then he shoulde drincke then to faulte in geuing hym more then he ought As we see to bring a sticke which is crooked to be straight we doe not only bow it so farre vntill it come to be straight but we bende it so far vntill we make it so crooked of the other side as it was before of the first side to thys end that at the last it may stand straight and as it were in the mid way betwene both the crookes which I do not therfore speake as though we ought to abolishe one euill and hurtfull ceremony for an other but that I would shew how it is more daungerous for vs that haue bene plunged in the mire of Popery to vse the Ceremonies of it then of any other idolatrous and superstitious seruice of god Thys wisedome of not conforming it selfe vnto the ceremonies of the Idolaters in things indifferent hath the church followed in times passed Tertullian sayth O sayth he better is the relygion of the heathen for they vse no solemnitie of the Christians neyther the Lordes day neyther the Pentecoste and if they knew them they woulde haue nothing to doe with them for they would be afrayd least they should seeme Christians but we are not afrayd to be called heathen Constantine the Emperor speaking of the keeping of the feaste of Easter sayth that it is an vnworthy thing to haue any thing common with that most spitefull company of the Iewes And a little after he sayth that it is most absurd and agaynst reason that the Iewes should vaunt and glory that the Christians could not keepe those things without their doctrine And in an other place it is sayd after thys sort It is conuenient so to order the matter that we haue nothing common with that nation The Councelles although they dyd not obserue them selues alwayes in making of decrees thys rule yet haue kept thys consideration continually in making theyr lawes that they would haue the christians differ from others in their ceremonies * The councell of Laodicia which was afterward confirmed by the sixthe generall councell decreed that the Christians should not take vnleauened breade of the Iewes or communicate with their impietie * Also it was decreed in an other councell that they should not decke theyr houses with baye leaues and greene
is the rule of the best I say they know that these gouernmentes do easely declyne into their contraries and by reason therof both the gouernment of those which were most vertuous might easely be chaunged into the gouernment of few of the richest or of greatest power and the populare estate might easely passe to a confused tumulte Now thys incommoditie were they more subiect vnto vnder a tyrant then vnder a godly prince For they had no cyuill magistrate which might correct and reforme those declyninges when they happened For the tyrantes dyd not know of it and if they had known of it they would haue bene glad to see the churches goe to wracke Therfore now we haue a godly ciuil magistrate which both wil ought to remedy such declinings conuersions of good gouernment into euill it followeth that thys estate gouernmēt by auncientes is rather to be vsed vnder a christian prince then vnder a tyrant Besides thys in the tyme of persecution all assemblyes of dyuers together were daungerous and put them all in hazard of their lyfe which dyd make those assemblies And therefore if the pastor alone might haue ordered and determyned of things pertayning to the church by hym selfe it had bene lesse daunger to him and more safety for others of the Church And therfore if the senyors were then thought meete to gouerne the church when they could not come together to exercise their functions without daunger much more ought they to be vnder a christian prince when they may meete together without daunger M. Doctor proceedeth sayeth it can not be gouerned in a whole realme as it may be in a citie or town This gouernment by senyors is not only in one citie but also hath beene of late throughout the whole realme of Fraunce where there were any churches and M. Doctor confesseth that it was in all the primitiue churches and therefore not onely in one realme but almost throughout the whole world and therefore the large spreading of the church can not hynder it So that the difference lyeth still in the peace and persecution of the Church and not in the capacitie and largenesse of the place where the churches abyde So might one reason agaynst the lawfull estate of a Monarchie For he might say that although the rule of one be needefull and conuenient in a housholde yet it is not conuenient in a towne and although it be conuenient in a towne yet it is not in a citie and although in a citie yet not in a realme To be short sayeth hee when he can say no more it can not be gouerned when it is full of hypocrites Papistes Atheistes and other wicked persons as in the times of persecution when there were few or none such I haue shewed before how great want of knowledge it bewrayeth to say that Papistes and Atheistes be of the church and I loue not as Maister Doctor doth to vse often repetition but if there bee now moe hypocrites other wicked and vnruely parsones in the church then there were in the tyme of persecution which I wil not deny thē there is greater cause now why there should be senyors in euery churche then there was then when there were fewer For the more naughty persons and the greater disorders there be the more ayde and helpe hath the pastor neede to haue both to finde out their disorders and also when they haue founde them out to iudge of the qualitie of them and after also to correct them with the censures of the church which standeth in such reprehensions priuate and open and excommunication as I haue before rehearsed Afterwarde he asketh what senyors may bee had in most of the paryshes of Englande fitte for that office he asketh the same question in the. 133. page where he also addeth pastors asking where may be gotten such pastoures as the authors of the Admonition require when as they require no other then those which the word of God requireth Well then if thys be a good reason why there should be no elders in any church because fitte men are not to be gotten in all paryshes it followeth by M. Doctors reason that forasmuch as we haue not fit and able pastors for euery church that therfore we ought to haue no able pastor in any church And if he will graunt that we ought to haue able pastoures in as many places as they may be gotten how can he deny that wee should haue elders in those churches where fitte men may bee had And I say further where wee haue an expresse commaundement layde vpon vs to doe a thing there all disputations must cease of hardenes of impossibility or profite or else of peace For first God hath not commaunded any orders in hys churche which are impossible and if they seeme harde it must bee remembred that the best and excellentest things are hardest and that there is nothing so harde which dyligence and trauayle to bring it to passe will not ouercome Which thing if it bee proued true in worldly affaires the truth therof will much more appeare in the matters pertayning vnto God considering that if God with hys blessing doe surmount all the difficultyes in worldly matters whych are otherwyse harde to be compassed hee will in hys owne matters and matters pertayning to hys glory fill vp the valleys although they be neuer so low bring downe the hylles althoughe they bee neuer so high playne the wayes be they neuer so rough so that he will make of a way not passable in the eyes of flesh away tracked and easie to goe in and to walke towardes that kingdome whereunto hee calleth vs Besides that I answere wheresoeuer there is a churche there are the riches of the spirite of God there is wyth knowledge discretion wisdom and there are suche as * S. Paule calleth wise and can discerne and iudge And wee see that when men are called to a lawfull and profitable calling and especially to a publike calling God doth powre on hys giftes of that person which is called so plentifully that hee is as it were sodenly made a newe manne which if he do in the wicked as Saule was there is no doubt but he will doe it in those which are with the testimony of the church and with experience of their former godly behauiour chosen to such offices of waight So that there is not nor can not bee any want to obey Goddes commaundement and to establishe the order in the church whych God hath appoynted but our owne eyther neglygence and slouthfulnes or fearefulnes or ambition or some other leuen which we nourish within our selues It is true that we ought to be obedyent vnto the cyuill magistrate which gouerneth the church of God in that office which is committed vnto hym and according to that calling But it must be remembred that cyuil magistrates must gouerne it according to the rules of God prescribed in hys word that as they are nourises so they