bound in the execution of this their Office to do what belongs to it for the rectifying of mens errors and reforming them from all evil and corrupt practices whether in the worship of God or in their common conversation And thus did those holy and learned men both Bishops and others behave themselves who were the blessed instruments of reforming the Church of England from Popery For the carrying on of which good work God inclined the hearts of our Kings to employ their power for the assistance and encouragement of the Clergy who were engaged in it And herein they did no other than what Hezekiah Iosiah and other pious Kings amongst the Iews did in reforming the Iewish Church And as they needed no new commission from Heaven then for the reformation they wrought having the Law of God to be their rule and warrant no more did our Kings and Bishops whilst they had the Gospel to be theirs according to which they proceeded by degrees Thus in the first place King Henry the Eighth abolished the Popes Supremacy that great fundamental falshood of Popery whilst he retain'd in a manner all other points of it But with great courage and justice he delivered his Kingdom from that yoke of bondage under which the Nation had long groaned even from the Usurpation of the Roman Bishop declaring that he had no manner of power or jurisdiction in his Majesties Dominions but that the King himself next under God and his Christ is Head of this Church that is the Supreme Moderator and Governour over all persons and in all causes as well Ecclesiastical as Civil in these his Realms Wherefore the King with the advice and assistance of his Bishops and Clergy may as lawfully take care for the Reformation of the Church according to the Word of God within his own Dominions as the Kings of Israel or Iudah might do in theirs Yea he is obliged to do it and no foreign power Prince or Prelate hath any the least right to hinder and controul him herein not the Bishop of Rome any more than he of Ierusalem or Antioch And thus far the generality of the Popish Clergy both the Bishops and the Universities concurr'd with the King even such men as Bonner and Gardiner The Popes power being thus broken and abolished this made way for a more thorough Reformation of the Doctrin and worship from many soul errors and superstitions in the days of Edward the Sixth This was for a while interrupted in the reign of Queen Mary but was afterward restored and perfected by the authority of Queen Elizabeth of blessed memory soon after her entrance upon the Government And thus was the Reformation of our Church according to the rule of Gods holy Word most happily begun carried on and compleated in a peaceable orderly and deliberate manner by just and lawful authority even that of the whole Kingdom whether Ecclesiastical or Civil Of which you have an account at large in a late accurate and full History of our Reformation by a Learned hand an Abridgement whereof is done by the same Author in a little room if the History it self be too large for you Our first Reformers then were no Impostors or false Prophets but were indeed sent of God though in an ordinary way being rightly Ordained to the Ministry and duly qualified for that Sacred Office they were guided and directed by the plain Word of God own'd and succeeded by his Providence allow'd and encouraged by his Vicegerents our Kings and Queens and the Reformation at length peaceably and firmly established by the Laws of the Land L. This doubt I think is clearly enough resolved and to me very satisfactorily Pray what 's the next T. He asks whether it can be made good what Luther and Calvin with all Protestants and Presbyterians have so long boasted they could do viz. Reform convincingly any one of the silliest Roman Catholicks that is and to begin let them do it in the matter of the Real Presence L. I do not well understand what he means by this For I think there is no question to be made of it but Luther and Calvin though they were not the Reformers of our Church with other learned Protestants have convincingly reformed many that were Roman Catholicks and in the matter of the Real Presence as well as other points these Converts have been convinced of their error and brought to a sounder judgment agreeable to Scripture and reason T. I think indeed there is more difficulty in finding out the meaning of this question than in answering it though somewhat like it he had before He cannot surely mean that no people who once profest themselves Roman Catholicks as his phrase is have ever been convinced of the errors of the Roman Church so as to forsake the same for thus it hath been with some whole Nations and particularly our own For we grant that in these latter ages our people were generally infected with those errors though from the beginning it was not so And as to Luther and Calvin though they did great service for the Reforming of the Church in their own Countries yet neither they nor any Presbyterians were the chief instruments of that work among us but holy Bishops and many sound and orthodox Preachers ordain'd by them who taught the truth as it is in Jesus and sealed with their blood the truth of what they taught These men by their zealous Preaching their holy living and chearful dying after the example of the Apostles and other Martyrs in the Primitive times did by Gods blessing win over thousands to embrace the Doctrine of the Gospel in its native purity rejecting those Popish errors in which before they had been blindly train'd up Wherefore he might as well say that the Apostles never converted any from Heathenism to Christianity as that our Ministers have never reformed any from Popery What then can he mean I can scarce guess what except that they cannot reform a Papist whilst he still remains one which is as if we should say that the Apostles never converted any heathens because whilst they remain'd heathens they were not converted But I am not willing to think him so weak and silly and therefore till he speaks plainer shall trouble my self no more with this but proceed to his next question which runs thus Can you prove to me clearly out of the written word which you teach ought only to be follow'd as the guide to Heaven that the Sabbath-day is commanded by God to be kept on Sunday and that little children are to be baptized L. Part of this was mention'd before viz. that about keeping the Sabbath for which you shew'd there is enough from Scripture to warrant our practice besides the constant custom of the whole Christian Church ever since the Primitive times and I suppose the same may be said for the Baptism of Infants T. I judge it may and that upon very good grounds For we know that Children were admitted members of
to draw them into a submission and therefore especially do they account the Greeks to be Hereticks and Schismaticks though I know they lay some other things to their charge But besides the Greek Church there are multitudes of other Christians in several parts of the world who submit not to the Bishop of Rome So that this boast of their vast numbers in comparison of others is as false as it is weak For according to the computation of many learned men if all the Christians in the world were divided into four parts those who belong to the Romish Church where ever they are scattered would not make one quarter of them With what face then can they pretend that they alone are the whole Catholick Church As if there were no Christians in the world but themselves all the rest being Hereticks or Infidels or what they please to call them L. But they say these Churches are not Protestants T. Whether that name be proper to them or not it 's enough that they joyn with us in the most substantial points against the Papists As to the name of Protestants I before told you we do commonly understand by it those who have reformed themselves from the errors of the Romish Church and have cast off her authority which before she unjustly usurped over them And in this sense there are a great many large and flourishing Churches of them in these Western parts of the world besides numerous Plantations in the East and West-Indies especially in the latter where many of the Native Heathens have been converted by them But as to the Greeks and those other Churches who never were enslaved to the Bishop of Rome though the name of Protestant may not so fitly belong to them yet do they agree with us in utterly disowning the Supremacy of that Bishop which is the very fundamental Doctrine of the Romish Church by which especially they are distinguished from those of all other communions As to other points wherein the Romanists and the Reformed differ in some of them the Greeks agree with us in others with them But that which is most material to my purpose is this that all these Churches do hold the same essential Articles of Christian Doctrine with us They receive the same holy Scriptures and the same ancient Creeds in which our faith is contain'd but then they reject many of those additions which in latter times have been made by pretended General Councils of the Roman Church Particularly I say they deny the Supremacy and Infallibility of that Church the chief of their new Doctrines By this therefore judg whose faith is most Catholick or Universal whilst many of their fundamental Articles as they esteem them are rejected by all Christian Churches besides themselves who are not a fourth part of Christendom whereas all the Articles of our Faith are embraced by all these Churches yea even by the Church of Rome it self for as I have often said the sum of our Faith and Religion is in the Apostles Creed and this hath been received by the whole Catholick Church in all times and places and the Roman Church also retains it though she has added new Articles to it But if she has any good pretence to the title of being part of the Catholick Church it must be upon account of her receiving and professing this same Christian Faith which we together with the whole Church of Christ do hold and not on account of those new Articles she has added which are so generally disown'd both by us and all other Christians in the world except their own party and which were utterly unknown to the Catholick Church for many ages after our Saviour Judge then I say whose faith is most Catholick theirs or ours L. I confess there seems little difficulty in the case but yet I have heard them oft object that ours is for the most part a Negative Religion made up of Negative Articles as that the Pope is not Head of the Church that there is no Purgatory no Transubstantiation c. Now they say we find no such Negative Doctrines in the Catholick Church of old and therefore we do herein differ from it T. To this the answer is exceeding easie that we hereby only reject those corrupt additions which the Romish Church hath made to the ancient Catholick Faith And their obtruding these falshoods on the world gave occasion for such Negative Articles as those you mention which we now look upon as very necessary to shew that we keep close to the ancient Rule of Faith delivered by Christ and his Apostles which Faith we keep entire and do express it most positively and plainly as we have it in the Creed But the Novelties which the Romish Church hath added to this we do utterly deny and reject As for instance when the Bishops of that Church many hundred years after our Saviour make a new claim of an Universal Jurisdiction over all Christian Churches we think it most just and necessary to disown all such his Supremacy as being no where taught in the Gospel nor mention'd in the Creed nor own'd by the Primitive Church The same we declare concerning their other Doctrines of Purgatory and Transubstantiation that we believe them nor So we also teach that there ought to be no worship of Images no Invocation of Saints or Angels c. and all this for the same reason because no where injoyn'd by our Saviour or his Apostles nor establish'd in any of the four first General Councils which we readily embrace but rather the contrary to these is either expressly taught or plainly enough insinuated And if the Church of Rome shall still go on to coin new Articles we shall as occasion is offered still be as ready to reject them declaring them to be no part of our Faith And by this means we do best manifest our conformity to the Catholick Church in all ages contenting our selves with that Faith which she hath ever profest and transmitted to posterity And here it is a most ridiculous thing for them to bid us shew where the Church of old held such Negative Articles as we now do since these were not like to be heard of before the errors that occasion'd them were introduced As when the Judaizing Christians taught the necessity of keeping Moses Law then the Apostles denied it and establish'd the contrary Now suppose this error had not been broach'd till some hundred years after had it not been sufficient for the Christians then to say that the Apostles never taught it who revealed the whole Counsel of God and therefore certainly it could be no part of their faith And so say we of the Doctrines before mention'd the Popes Supremacy the worship of the Blessed Virgin and the like if these had been so necessary as Papists hold we should hear of them in our Saviours Sermons or in some of the Epistles written by the Apostles to several Churches or sure we should meet with them in the writings
means he then by saying that none of the Ancients consent with us in all things In every little oppinion it 's scarce likely there were or ever will be two men in the World that do exactly agree No such agreement I am sure is to be found amongst the Divines of the Roman Church But as sure it is that we agree with the Apostles and Ancient Churches in all things material and substantial in all points of Faith necessary to Salvation For we embrace the same Holy Scriptures and the same Creeds which they did What means he again by saying that the Apostles were not of the Lutheran or Calvinistical Sect What that they were not followers of Luther or Calvin They were not like indeed but it 's enough I hope if Luther and Calvin were followers of the Apostles Thus what if he should say that the Apostles were not of the Church of England Is it not sufficient that our Church embraces the same Faith which the Apostles planted in all places where they came Wherefore we may with great reason conclude contrary to his extravagant and most uncharitable inferences that we have the true Christian Faith in our Church and not any new-fangled invention c. If the Apostles Creed be a Summary of the true Faith I am sure we have it since we do most heartily embrace this Creed and those Holy Scriptures whence it 's taken and therefore we are none of those false Prophets foretold in Scripture For whilst we keep close to God's Word as the rule of our Faith we are safe enough from deserving any such charge But how will they of the Romish Church acquit themselves from it whilst they have brought in many devices of their own to which the Apostles and Primitive Christians were meer strangers and therefore cannot be said to consent with Papists therein Such are their Doctrines of Purgatory Transubstantiation c. Such are their customs of praying in an unknown Tongue having private Masses where the Priest only receives in their publick Assemblies their half-Communions giving only the Bread to the people when they do Communicate c. None of these things were anciently taught or used in the Church and some of them but lately established amongst themselves These therefore we may justly say are new-fangled inventions devised of their own Brain contrary to Holy Scriptures And they who broach and maintain them are in this respect false Teachers and probably some of those who are foretold in Scripture at least they and their false Doctrines are condemned by it and that 's enough for our purpose L. It is so indeed and enough have you said to weaken and refute this his first Proposition If the rest have no more strength they are far from deserving that great title he gives them I shall rehearse the next if you please T. Presently you shall only take notice from what hath been said how plain the Answer is to that captious Question of theirs Where was your Religion before Luther Where was it Even there whereever the Gospel was received whereever the Christian Doctrine was own'd for that is our Religion and nothing but that It was therefore in the Primitive Church that was planted by the Apostles and in the whole Catholick Church in all succeeding Ages Our Religion was both in the East and the West even in the Roman Church it self For we grant they still retain'd the Christian Faith they kept and do still keep the Apostles Creed though they have added several new Articles to it and that especially in their Council of Trent which appear'd not in the World quite so soon as Luther Now the truly Catholick Ancient Christian Faith we receive but their new-coin'd Articles we reject So that before the Reformation our Religion was in their Church as Gold in a heap of Dirt or as one long since exprest it as the pure Flower amongst the Bran or as Corn among Tares And by the Reformation we only wash'd away this Dirt sifted out the Bran and plucked up the Tares But the old Religion the Doctrine of Christ and his Apostles remains pure and entire L. But say they where did the Apostles teach that there is no Purgatory no Transubstantiation c Yet thus the Protestants teach and therefore they consent not with the Apostles T. Yes certainly but they do for as I have formerly told you we therefore say there is no Purgatory c. because the Apostles say no such things which be sure they would have done had they been true since they are such weighty and material points as the Church of Rome now accounts them What the Apostles taught that we receive what they taught not we refuse as knowing they were faithful in delivering all that they received of the Lord. Judge then which of us consents most with the Apostles we who receive all their Doctrines but reject what they never taught of they who teach these new Doctrines which neither the Apostles nor any of their first followers ever delivered nor were they for some Hundred years after generally profest so much as in their own Church Yea these Novelties were never directly and formally established as Articles of Faith and made necessary for all men of their Communion to believe till in these latter Ages some of them as I take it not till the very Council of Trent not yet an Hundred and fifty years since which they call a General Council though packt up of Bishops of their own Sect and the major part the Popes own creatures who used all the foul arts imaginable to carry things according to his humour as is plainly to be seen in the History of that Council written by some of their own Church Now in respect of these Articles in which Popery chiefly consists we may with great reason retort the question and demand Where was your Religion before the Council of Trent And were the Apostles of the same opinion with these Trent Fathers Compare their Creeds together and it will easily appear Yea compare that of Trent with any other of the old Creeds such as the Nicene or Constantinopolitan and it will easily appear what additions they have made to the ancient Faith whereas our Church receives those very same Creeds without addition or diminution To conclude this though we readily grant their Popish Errors to have been before our Reformation from them for they could not be cast out before they were brought in yet the great truths of our Religion were taught and received in the Church some Ages before those Errors were ever heard of Our Religion then did not first appear in Luther's days when the Reformation was wrought but is as old as since the time of Christ and his Apostles being nothing else but pure Christianity resormed from the errors and abuses of Popery These things I have already oft mentioned but could not well avoid the repetition of them on occasion of this his first Proposition which by this time you see
is far enough from being unanswerable Now let us hear the second L. It cannot be proved that the Religion and Faith of the Holy Roman Catholick Church hath been any way changed in any Article that belongs to the Religion by any Pope Council or Catholick Bishop nor can any of them be produced that have changed it But it is rather proved that the very same Faith hath remain'd entire and inviolate from the times of the Apostles to this very day and by continual succession or from hand to hand as it were is come to our hands Whence is manifestly gathered that it is the very same Faith which the Apostles taught and therefore the same that they learned from Christ their Master in his School T. The Answer which I have just now given to his first Proposition doth wholly take off the force of this second also For pray consider we do not charge those of the Church of Rome with directly changing the Articles of the Christian Faith for we grant they still retain the Apostles Creed wherein that Faith is briefly comprized and the Holy Scriptures where it is more largely taught But our great charge against them is their adding to this old Faith new Articles of their own devising some of them utterly uncertain some notoriously false which yet they impose as of absolute necessity to be believed in order to Salvation even as much as the Apostles Creed it self And for the vindication of these Novelties they give very corrupt and false interpretations of the ancient Articles and of the holy Scriptures themselves such as the first Christian Writers never gave Thus for instance they would have the Catholick Church mentioned in the Creed to signifie the Roman Church and so to comprehend only those who acknowledg the Bishop of Rome to be Head of the Church and Christ's Vicar upon Earth whereas none of the Ancients did ever thus explain this Article So that by their corrupt glosses they do in some instances very much change the Doctrine whilst they retain the Words But as to these novel additions which they would thrust upon us we do utterly deny that they were ever taught by Christ or his Apostles nor consequently could be delivered down from them successively to this present Age. Nay our Learned Writers shew as to many of them the very time when they were introduced by what Degrees and what Arts it was done and with what difficulties and oppositions they met They name the very Pope who first obtain'd the Title of Supreme Bishop of the Universal Church they name the Council where Image-worship was first established and after that when Transubstantiation and the Popes Power of Deposing Princes were Decreed c. Though as our Writers commonly urge it is a most foolish and ridiculous thing when we demonstrate the Errors of their Church for them to say there are none because we cannot shew the precise time when they were first brought in As if when the Tares were plainly seen in the field the Servant should have denied there were any because no body could exactly tell when they were Sown it being done while the Master slept It 's enough that we can tell the time long after the Apostles when their erroneous Doctrines were not received in the Church and that proves them to be no part of the Ancient Faith of Christians which has been always and every where received in the Catholick Church Nay as to one most corrupt custom of their Church that of taking the Cup from the Laity when they first established it by a Decree viz. in the Council of Constance not three hundred years ago they themselves do there acknowledg that it was permitted in the Primitive Church yet it now seem'd fit to the Church of Rome for what reason you must not enquire to order the contrary to that primitive practice But to conclude That faith which indeed the Apostles learn'd in Christs School and from him taught to their followers and which from them hath been transmitted from one age to another down to this present time this we do most readily own and imbrace even that faith which is delivered in the holy Scriptures and comprized in the Creed and so far as they of Rome do acknowledg this faith we have no quarrel with them But the new Articles decreed by late Councils of their own by no means can we admit not a syllable of them being mention'd in the ancient Creeds nor can they be proved by the Holy Scriptures but many of them are directly contrary thereto as hath been already shewn and will yet further appear in my answer to his following argument to which you may proceed L. His third Proposition is That it cannot be shew'd that either the Ceremonies Sacraments or any Doctrine of their Church contains any thing contrary to holy Scripture but rather their learned Doctors clearly teach and demonstrate all the foresaid things to be plainly consonant to Holy Writ Such be these Words This is my Body and others Whence it follows that Lutherans Calvinists and other Sectaries have ungroundedly and without reason separated themselves from the Roman Church That also they who withdraw themselves from the Catholick Churches bosom can give no reason why they turn rather to the Lutherans than to the Calvinists Anabaptists or such other Hereticks T. That the Church of Rome hath brought in Customs contrary to the Holy Scripture is very evident from that instance I gave under the last Head viz. their taking away the Cup from the people at the Communion contrary to our Saviours own institution and practice who gave the Cup as well as the Bread to his Apostles requiring them all to drink of it and this not as Apostles meerly but as they were his Disciples And he enjoyn'd them to do this hereafter in remembrance of him and consequently to give both the Bread and the Wine to all Christians that should come to the Lords Table And so the Apostle Paul expresly requires Let a man examine himself every man that is whether of the Clergy or Laity and so let him eat of that bread and drink of that Cup. According to the Apostle then every Man that is bound to examine and prepare himself for this Holy Sacrament ought to drink of the Cup as well as eat of the Bread And thus it was generally used in the Primitive Church by their own confession as you have heard And yet in these latter ages out of I know not what pretended reverence for the Cup no body must partake of it ordinarily but the Priest that consecrates which is I say most expresly contrary to the Scripture But for their excuse they have devised forsooth a fine Doctrine of Concomitancy which if you will do them the small favour to grant that of Transubstantiation to be true they think well enough solves all For they tell you that the Blood so accompanies the Flesh that he who receives one partakes of the other also and
therefore whilst the people take the Flesh under the species of Bread this may very well serve without taking the Wine too But if this be a good reason Why then need the consecrating Priest take the Wine Or why need our Saviour have appointed both Bread and Wine to be made use of in this his Holy Supper Here then you have a plain instance of their practising contrary to the Scripture in so weighty a matter as the Administring the Holy Communion To this may be joyn'd their custom of private Masses or Communions if that be not a contradiction the Priest himself many times receiving alone and none of the people who are present partaking with him contrary to the first institution of this Holy Sacrament and to the very nature and design of it as it is a Communion and contrary also to the practice of the Primitive Church To these may a great many more easily be added of which we have formerly taken notice Such as having their Prayers in an unknown Tongue contrary to the Apostles direction 1 Cor. 14. Their Worshipping of Saints and Angels which is forbidden in all those places that command us to Worship God alone in the name of Jesus Christ our only Mediator and most expresly Col. 2. 18. Rev. 22. 9. Also their Worship of Images and of the Host contrary to the second Commandment And for an instance of their false Doctrines many of which we have often mentioned we need go no further than that palpable one of Transubstantiation which he mentions as agreeable to Scripture that says This is my body But how little these words make for his purpose we have before shewn and that their plain meaning is This is the Sacrament of my Body or the representation and commemoration of it and the way of conveying the benefits that come by it according to the constant use of the like expressions in the matter of Sacraments even as the Paschal Lamb is called the Passover of which it was only a solemn Memorial But that the natural substance of Bread and consequently of Wine remains after Consecration we have proved from the Apostle who again and again calls it so 1 Cor. 11. How then can he say that without ground we separate from the Romish Church Since if there were nothing else to be blamed this alone were sufficient reason to keep out of their Communion since in order to it they require our belief of a Doctrine most apparently false namely that of Transubstantiation and enjoyn a practice founded upon this Doctrine which is notoriously sinful viz. the Worship of the Consecrated Elements as if they were now turned into the substance of Christ's Body and Blood yea into whole Christ both as to his Divine and Humane Nature Now they themselves as you have heard do grant that if there was no such change made by Consecration this Worship would be idolatrous and therefore we being upon good grounds assured that no such change there is do utterly abhor the very thoughts of such Idolatrous worship and do believe our selves bound in Conscience to Almighty God to undergo a Thousand deaths rather than be guilty of it yea though we lived in Popish Countries But besides this we here in England owe no manner of obedience to the Bishop of Rome nor are under any obligation to forsake the Communion of our own Church for that of the Romish but should be guilty of that hainous sin of Schism by so doing as the Papists amongst us are at this day of which more in another place As to what he talks that they who go from their Church can give no reason why they should rather turn to Luther than to the Calvinists c. it concerns not us in the least who neither turn to the one or the other but continue in Communion with our own Church in which we were Baptized and live in obedience to our own Rulers in Church and State whom God hath set over us Nor do I discern by what reason he makes this silly inference nor yet for what purpose But let me hear his next Argument L. It cannot be proved that ever at any time were admitted any Priests that were not first duly consecrated by Bishops Wherefore we rightly infer that all Lutheran Ministers Calvinists or any other Sects not Consecrated according to the old custom of the Holy Church are for both from the name and reality of the Divine Priesthood and so that in their Cene or Supper as they call it they give but a meer piece of Bread as also that they have no power to Absolve from Sins but send away people as entangled and defiled with Sin as they were when they came to them T. As to this Argument we of the Church of England are nothing concerned in it since our Priests receive Ordination from Bishops and therefore have as full authority for the exercise of their Ministerial function as those of any Christian Church in the World Some other Reformed Churches also do embrace Episcopal Government As for such who want it we shall not enter into a dispute concerning the validity of their Orders But this I think we may safely assert that if the people be duly qualified for the Lord's Supper as St. Paul himself calls it 1 Cor. 11. 20. by a firm belief of the Gospel and sincere love and obedience to our Blessed Saviour they shall not want the benefits that are promised to worthy Communicants through any defect or irregularity in the Ordination of their Ministers And if they do truly repent of their sins and forsake them they shall for Christ's sake obtain forgiveness from God though never any Priest should give them Absolution But on the other hand our Writers have shewn that according to the common principle received in the Romish Church That the truth of Sacraments depends upon the intention of the Priest the people cannot be certain at any time that they have true Sacraments no nor whether he be a true Priest that Administers them But I shall trouble you with nothing more on this Argument L. There is no need since it reaches not our Church in the least I shall therefore proceed to the fifth which is this It cannot be found in the whole Holy Scripture that nothing is to be believed but what clearly and expresly is contained written in the same whence follows the ruine and overthrow of the ground-work on which Lutherans Calvinists and other Sectaries rely when they affirm that nothing is to be believed but what is expresly set down in Holy Writ T. I wonder who says so Every thing is to be believed that has sufficient evidence of its truth whether it be in Scripture or not But this we say and this I suppose he means to argue against that nothing is of necessity to be believed in order to Salvation but what is contain'd in Holy Scripture Which in effect is the same as to say that the Holy Scripture contains all necessary
he hath no need of us nor receives any benefit from us when we have done all that was required we are to account our selves unprofitable servants that we have nothing but what we received from him that though death be properly the wages of sin yet eternal life is the free gift of God through Iesus Christ c. But yet on the other hand considering the gracious promise which God hath made to all true believers that continue patient in well-doing on this account we may safely grant that an holy life shall be most richly rewarded with everlasting happiness and good men in a large and more modest sense of the word may be said to deserve it in that they have by Gods grace performed the condition on which it was promised In this sense the Ancients commonly used the words merit and reward So in holy Scripture we read of a recompence of reward though such a one as is of grace not strict debt and true Christians are said to be worthy of this happiness Rev. 3. 4. and to have a right to enter into life that is according to the tenour of Gods gracious Covenant Revel 22. 14. Wherefore if they of the Romish Church will be satisfied with such concessions as these as perhaps the more modest of them will there need be no contention about these matters And some very learned and judicious Writers of our own and other Reformed Churches when they have come to state the controversie clearly and impartially have freely acknowleded that the difference betwixt us in t ese and some other points is not so great as some hot Disputants on both sides would make it However I shall not further enlarge on them for it is not my business to display all the Errors of the Roman Church nor indeed is it in my power much less do I desire to aggravate things and make any of their opinions seem worse than really they are But my design all along hath been to give you such a true and just account of things as might fix you in communion with the Church of England and preserve you from any inclination or thought of going over to Rome and that in brief for such plain reasons as these even because our Church is a sound part of the Catholick Church and has full authority over you by the Laws of God and the Land and since here all things necessary to Salvation may be enjoy'd and nothing is required that may be an hindrance to it Whereas on the other hand the Church of Rome has no jurisdiction over us in England nor ought to have and does also propose most unjust terms of Communion with which you cannot comply without apparent hazard of your Salvation since she requires all her members to embrace and profess gross Errors for Divine Truths and enjoyns the doing of many things as necessary duties which are very heinous sins against Gods express commands L. These reasons are indeed both plain and weighty such that I can easily understand and do feel their strength and by Gods assistance shall ever remain under the power of them T. I hope you will so And since you are so sensible of their truth and force give me leave before we part to beseech you always so to keep up the sense of them that you may thereby be secured from all attempts that may be made upon you not only by those of the Church of Rome but by such as are commonly called Protestant Dissenters though indeed by their separating principles and practices I think they dissent from all Protestant Churches whatever Let none of these then ever draw you into the way of separation from the Church of England under pretence of bringing you into purer societies where the word is more powerfully preached and Sacraments more purely administred L. I hope I shall never be wrought upon by such pretences as these for whilst in our Church we enjoy all things needful to Salvation and have nothing sinful imposed upon us surely it ought to be esteemed a very pure and sound Church in whose communion I ought to remain Nor can I see the least reason why I should disobey my Superiours and break the peace of this Church and separate from it to seek after I know not what greater purity in this corner or that T. Keep you to this and you will not easily be shaken For let Papists or Separatists object what they please most certain it is that in our Church the Gospel of Christ is most plainly and powerfully preached the holy Sacraments purely administred and the Worship of Almighty God gravely and solemnly performed our Prayers and Praises offered up to the true God in the name of Jesus Christ framed according to the will of God revealed in his Word and exprest in our own Tongue that so all the people may easily understand them be duly affected with them and heartily say Amen to them What then should hinder any good Christian from joyning with a Church so well constituted in a constant reverent attendance upon the Word Prayers and Sacraments which may with so much freedom and lawfulness here be enjoyed L. I am so far from knowing any reason to the contrary that I think we have cause to embrace this priviledg with great readiness and joy and with most hearty thankfulness to Almighty God for his singular mercy in affording us these blessed advantages above most other Nations in the world T. And yet you shall often hear some people either ignorantly or maliciously crying out of Popery Superstition Will-worship and I know not what which ought not to move you in the least L. There 's no reason to be moved with bare noise and ill words whilst I know nothing amongst us that deserves them T. It 's plain there is not for when you come to examine the matter their greatest objections against us are that we have Forms of Prayer there were more reason to object it as a fault if we had none that we kneel at the Communion and why may we not as well as at our Prayers That the Minister sometimes wears a Surplice why not as well as a Gown That he makes a transient sign of the Cross over the Childs forehead after Baptism and what hurt is in doing it more than in speaking the words of listing him under the banner of a Crucified Saviour Are not these very weighty matters to make such noise and disturbance about L. I have heard these things talked against by some people but never met with any solid argument to prove them sinful T. No nor I am confident ever will Very easie it were to answer the common objections against them and to shew the lawfulness of them whilst there is nothing to be found in Gods Word to the contrary and where there is no law there 's no transgression But something of this nature I have done otherwhere and you may find many excellent Discourses to this purpose written by the Divines of
much disturbance to both Moreover I thank God I am so fully convinced not only of the lawfulness and duty but of the great and unspeakable advantage of living in communion with the Church of England that I feel not in my self the least inclination to depart from it For here we have the Holy Scriptures the food of our souls freely allow'd us and daily read amongst us very frequently they are explain'd to us and our duty from them inforced upon us in useful practical Sermons Our prayers I am satisfied are holy and good such that if it be not our own faults we may use them with much devotion The Holy Sacraments are here administred according to our Saviours own appointment so far as he hath exprest it And as to any Ceremonies or circumstances of Worship established by the prudence and authority of the Church I know nothing but what is very innocent and lawful very grave and decent agreeable to the solemnity of Divine Worship So that I am ready to say with St. Peter Lord whither shall we go since here we have the words of eternal life here we have the way to it plainly discovered and the means for attaining it plentifully afforded T. I am very glad to hear you discourse so honestly and judiciously and I pray God keep you ever in this good mind and grant that you and all other Christians may make a right use of all those means and advantages which are here afforded in order to their Salvation To which purpose before I dismiss you give me leave with all possible earnestness to beseech you not to satisfie your self with holding the true Religion and being of a true Church whose Doctrine and Worship is holy and good but see above all things that you your self be a truly religious and good man Else what shall it avail you to be a member of the best and purest Church in the world if you be an impure unholy person no true living member of Jesus Christ Though Loyalty to our Prince and Conformity to the Church are great duties yet these will not excuse our disobedience to any of Christs Laws who is the King of Kings and Head of the Church What though we are not Papists Hereticks or Schismaticks yet if we be wicked and loose livers we are in a worse condition than even Heathens and Infidels The inordinate love of money may damn a man as well as the worship of an Idol of Gold or Silver yea Covetousness is stiled Idolatry and so is voluptuousness too for the sensual man is said to make his belly his god To prefer the Creature before the Creator and the pleasures of sin before the joyes of Heaven may well be reckoned amongst the most vile and damnable errors and heresies He that lives in malice and envy that hates his brother and reviles oppresses or cheats him is a most factious and schismatical man for he makes a rent and schism in the body of Christ and is broken off from it by being destitute of that charity which is the bond of perfection by which fellow Christians are united one to another and all of them to Christ their Head Let it not suffice therefore that you live in an excellent Church where you have the Word Prayers and Sacraments according to Christs appointment but see that you diligently improve them for the promoting of good life this being the great end for which they were appointed Joyn constantly in the Prayers with great reverence and devotion and then live according to your Prayers and professions Firmly believe the Articles of your Creed and let your faith work by love Attend to the reading and preaching of Gods Word with care and seriousness and see that you be not an Hearer only but a Doer of the Word Often reflect upon your Baptismal Vow and be faithful to it in fighting against the world the flesh and the Devil most entirely devoting your self to the service of the blessed God and his Son Jesus in leading a godly righteous and sober life Frequently renew these Vows at the Holy Communion and there most thankfully commemorate the death of our blessed Saviour Who loved us and gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purifie to himself a peculiar people zealous of good works Let his love constrain you to obedience and let the remembrance of his Death and Resurrection mortifie all sin in you and quicken you to newness of life Let the terrors of the Lord perswade you to repentance and new obedience and let the hopes of eternal glory make you patient constant and chearful in well doing In a word see that you truly Fear God Honour and obey the King love your brethren and live in peace and charity with all men herein continually exercising your self to have a conscience void of offence toward God and man By such a truly religious and holy life you will adorn your profession bring honour to the Church gain upon its enemies or stop their mouths and even force them to acknowledg that God is in you of a truth that certainly this is a true Christian Church whose members are of such a truly Christian temper and behaviour By this means you will best be secured from all that lye in wait to deceive whether Papists or Separatists Your own in ward sense and relish of Divine things will assure you that true Religion consists not in bodily exercises how pompous costly and laborious soever Nor will you fansie the power of Godliness to be manifested by wrangling against such Forms and Ceremonies as are in themselves no hindrance to Spiritual Worship and Devotion but may be an help Yea by this means you will certainly obtain eternal happiness which can no other way be secured For being of the true Church will never save him that is not a true Christian which no wicked man is nor will right opinions make amends for bad manners Whereas he that heartily and honestly endeavours in all things to know and do the will of God shall either be preserved from error or from being much hurt by it For those mistakes which neither proceed from a vicious temper of mind nor lead to any evil practice in a mans life are not like to be very hurtful to himself or to others To conclude then Let your conversation in all respects be such as becomes the Gospel of Christ and be stedfast unmovable always abounding in the work of the Lord being assured that your labour shall not be in vain in the Lord. L. I do again and again return you most hearty thanks for all the good counsel you have given me and do sincerely resolve by Gods help to follow it for which purpose I beg the assistance of your prayers T. That I do faithfully promise you and do also desire yours that I my self may observe the directions I have given and not contradict them by an evil example And God grant that all those every where who take Christs name into their mouths may depart from all iniquity And may the Holy Spirit of Truth lead us all into and keep us in those ways of truth and peace and serious holiness which may bring honour to God and to our Religion and procure us true comfort here and eternal glory hereafter through the mercies of God in Jesus Christ to whose guidance I commit you and bid you heartily farewell L. God Almighty hear your Prayers bless your Instructions and plenteously reward you for all your kindness and pains and grant us an happy meeting in that blessed world above where we shall never part more Farewell Dear Sir FINIS
Blessing to those for whose sake they were Written But whilst we are thus engaged in disputes and controversies let us look well to the temper of our minds and take great care that we lose not peace or charity whilst we are inquiring after and contending for the truth Let us have as great an aversion as we will from the errors the ill principles and practices of any sort of men but let us not have the least enmity to their persons upon any pretence whatever Let us pity them and pray for them and do all we can in our several places to instruct them to reduce and reform them but let us not hate or envy them not rail upon or revile them not wish them or do them any hurt nor rejoyce in any mischief that befalls them nor vex our selves at their prosperity or with the fears and forethoughts of it Let us not fret our selves in any wise to do evil For that end above all let us take heed of such a fierce and furious zeal as tends to disturb the peace of Church and State That 's no true zeal for Religion which produces such ill effects but rather a zeal for opinions and parties or for outward advantages and proceeds from pride envy revenge distrust of God and such like evil principles But the wisdom which is from above is pure and peaceable True Religion inspires the breasts of men with meekness and patience humility and charity renders them calm and quiet gentle and tractable easie to be intreated and easie to be governed Next to piety to God what greater duty of Religion than Loyalty to our Prince as the Minister of God How then can Religion be exprest or promoted by Sedition and Rebellion any more than by cursing and swearing and such like profaneness He that talks of rebelling for his Religion has lost what he contends for before he begins the contest For what Religion has he who resists the Ordinance of God And this as we are taught by God himself he does who resists that lawful authority which God hath set over him But we must shew that we Fear God by Honouring the King and loving all men especially our Christian Brethren This is the language of Holy Scripture and this is the Doctrine of our Church Let us then live in peaceable Communion with this Church and let us in all respects behave our selves in so loyal and dutiful a manner toward our King as she instructs and obliges us to do even so that we may deserve the Character which one of the Ancients in his Apology for the Christians gives of them viz. That a Christian is an enemy to no man much less to his Prince Thus ought we to practise if we will be true to our profession For the Religion of our Church as I have often said and fully proved in the following Discourse is no other than the Christian Religion the very same which our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles taught without either Popish or Phanatical corruptions and additions And as in other points so particularly in this of obedience to Magistrates she inculcates what Christ hath commanded Give unto Caesar the things that are Caesars and that of St. Paul Let every soul be subject to the higher Powers c. even Bishops and Priests as well as Lay-men and this not only for wrath but conscience sake Or as St. Peter Submit to every ordinance of man for the Lords-sake This was the Doctrine and practice of the Apostles and of the Primitive Christians in the first and purest ages when they had the greatest temptations to the contrary even in times of hottest persecution and this not for want of strength as Bellarmine to their great dishonour would have it thought Lib. 5. de Rom. Pont. Cap. 7. but out of obedience to Gods commands and faith in his promises But in succeeding ages of greater prosperity as the Church declined from her purity in many other respects so also in point of subjection and obedience to Governours Then began Prelates to contend with Princes and the Pope to set himself against yea above the Emperour Then by degrees he claim'd a power of deposing even Kings for what he shall judg heresie and of absolving Subjects from their Allegiance which by the way Bellarmine very finely compares to that power which the spirit ought to have over the flesh Lib. 5. de Rom. Pontif. Cap. 6. Then were the Clergy exempted from the jurisdiction of the Civil Magistrate with many other encroachments upon the rights of Princes which they of the Church of Rome were especially guilty of But it was the design of our pious Reformers to remove these as well as other abuses and to restore Religion to its Primitive purity as far as possible And this they have done as in many other instances so particularly in asserting the just power and prerogative of Kings strictly obliging all the members of this Church whether Clergy or Laity to yield all that homage and honour that obedience and subjection which by the plain dictates of reason and nature and by the express Laws of God in Holy Scripture are most justly due to them And as it was the glory of the Primitive Church so has it been of ours ever since the happy time of her Reformation that she hath always maintained her Loyalty and Allegiance untainted and unshaken And hath fixed it on such principles as will make it firm and steady in all times and under all Princes on such as made the Primitive Christians obedient to their Emperours whether Heathen or Christian Arrian or Orthodox even on the principles of Religion and Obedience to Almighty God who hath set up Kings as his Vicegerents and hath expresly commanded us to reverence and obey them as such threatning damnation to them that resist and promising an eternal Kingdom of Glory to the meek and peaceable and to the patient sufferer for righteousness sake This I say is Primitive Christianity and this is the true Protestant Doctrine of our Church taught by our first Reformers and by their genuine successors ever since So that it seems not without reason that several learned men make this a chief distinguishing character of a True Protestant without an Irony that he owns the Kings Supremacy as our Church has defined it I am sure he that denies it so far agrees with the Papists Wherefore if we would restore due honour to the name of Protestant which by the abuse of pretenders hath of late been exposed to derision and contempt let us live according to the Doctrine of our Church whilst we profess our selves zealous for Protestant Religion and cry out bitterly against Popery let us take heed of embracing some of the vilest principles and practices of it such as were broached and maintain'd chiefly by their furious Hildebrands and some of the worst men amongst them I mean their Doctrine of resisting and rebelling against lawful Soveraigns upon pretence of Religion and the honour of
God for the defence of his Church and the carrying on his cause The Holy God needs not the wickedness of men to defend any cause of his nor is Religion like to be secured by irreligious means nor Gods honour promoted by a contempt of his authority in disobeying his commands True Religion will make us impartial and uniform in the performance of our duty and teach us to have a respect to all Gods Commandments to the fifth as well as to the first or second so that we shall no more dare to rebell against our lawful Soveraign and set up an Usurper than to disown the true God and worship an Idol But I have been longer on this Subject than I intended and therefore shall hasten to conclude this Preface as I have done my Book with a most serious and earnest exhortation to the Reader that above all things he be careful to lead an universally religious and good life giving in the first place to God the things that are Gods and then to Caesar the things that are his Let God be all in all to our souls and let his authority wholly govern and sway us in the whole course of our lives Let us study to know his will as he has plainly revealed it in his holy Word and let us most strictly and faithfully comply with it in all things Never let the hopes of any worldly advantage or the fear of any loss or suffering draw us into the wilful commission of any sin or into the wilful neglect of our duty Neither the commands of the greatest Monarch nor the example of the multitude will be any excuse for going against the light of Gods Word and our own Consciences There is not the least doubt of it but that God must be obeyed rather than man when their commands do indeed thwart and contradict each other Gods favour is more to be desired than all the riches and honours of the world and his wrath more to be feared than all the miseries and sufferings of this life What will it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his own soul But as no pretence of Loyalty and Obedience to Kings will at any time justifie our breach of Gods commands who is the King of Kings so neither will the pretence of Religion any more warrant our resistance of lawful authority If we cannot obey with a good conscience then we ought to suffer with quietness and patience This is every where the Lesson which the Gospel teaches and which is more especially recommended to us by the example of our Blessed Lord and Master and if ever we hope to live and reign with him hereafter we must now deny our selves and take up our cross and follow him even in meekness and patience must we follow him as well as in righteousness and mercy purity and temperance or any other graces Yea by this means we shall best consult for the present safety and honour both of our selves and our Religion Who will or what can harm us if we be followers of that which is good This will incline Kings to be Nursing Fathers to the Church when the Church trains up her Children in obedience to God and the King Above all this will procure the blessing and favour of Almighty God wherein consists all our safety and felicity We may hope still to enjoy his Presence and his Gospel whilst we bring forth such good fruits of it and walk worthy of the Lord in all well-pleasing He will continue our peace and prosperity so far as he sees good for us and will suffer nothing to befall us but what shall make for the interest of Religion and our own truest advantage Say to the righteous it shall be well with him whether in peace and prosperity or in sufferings and adversity But let us remember St. Peter ' s advice 1 Pet. 4. 15. to beware of suffering as busie bodies or evil doers as factious and seditious as Rebels and Traytors They only who suffer for righteousness sake may glorifie God on that behalf They alone with confidence may commit themselves to him who are exercised in well-doing To him therefore the only wise the great and good God let us freely and chearfully commit both our souls and bodies and all our comcerns whether publick or private banishing from our minds those faintings and despondencies those fears and jealousies which first disturb the peace of our own breasts and then too often that of the publick Let us but see to do our own duty with faithfulness and diligence and then let us possess our souls in patience being assured that all the ways of God are mercy and truth and all his Providences how strange soever they may seem to us shall in the issue sweetly conspire to fulfill his promises and accomplish his designs of love to all that truly fear and serve him Let us look well to the Government of our own spirits and passions of our tongues and our lives and then let us leave the Government of the world to the God that made it who is the absolute Lord and Ruler over all in whose hands are all the hearts and the affairs of men and who can turn and order all as he will and he will do what he sees best and most conducing to the glory of his own name and the good of his Church which is a thousand times dearer to him than it can be to us Wherefore let us sincerely make Gods Glory our End and his Word our Rule and continue stedfast in communion with our Church which teaches us so to do and then we can never be utterly defeated nor need we ever be much dejected Truth and goodness are most strong and invincible things and will certainly at last prevail and triumph over error and wickedness And all that do with courage and honesty engage in their service shall never receive any real hurt but are certain to come off with victory and honour Even now the spirit of God and of glory resteth upon them and dwelleth in them filling them with joy unspeakable and full of glory And at length they shall be exalted to those glories and joys those Crowns and Scepters which are reserved in Heaven for Christian conquerors even for such as have managed their warfare and gain'd their conquests not by disturbing the peace nor by doing evil to any man but by patient suffering of evil done to them and by patient continuance in well-doing THE CONTENTS PART I. CHAP. I. COncerning the True Church and the marks of it and first of its Unity Page 1 CHAP. II. Of the second Mark of the True Church viz. Holiness pag. 14 CHAP. III. Of the third Mark of the True Church that it's Catholick pag. 33 CHAP. IV. Of the fourth Mark of the True Church that it is Apostolick p. 41 CHAP. V. Of some particular points in difference betwixt us and the Church of Rome and first of the Popes Supremacy p. 48 CHAP. VI. Of
Purgatory and Prayers for the Dead and Indulgences p. 65 CHAP. VII Of Transubstantiation p. 75 CHAP. VIII Concerning the Sacrifice of the Mass. p. 102 CHAP. IX Of having Prayers in an unknown Tongue p. 105 CHAP. X. Concerning Confession of Sins to the Priest in order to his forgiveness of them p. 109 CHAP. XI Of Invocation of Saints p. 119 CHAP. XII Of the Worship of Images p. 129 CHAP. XIII Of Praying by Beads p. 142 CHAP. XIV Of Distinction of Meats p. 148 CHAP. XV. Of withholding the Scriptures from the Common-People p. 152 PART II. CHAP. I. COntaining an Answer to some Arguments against Protestants p. 167 CHAP. II. A Resolution of some Doubts and Questions proposed to Protestants 190 CHAP. III. An Answer to some Propositions said to be unanswerable by Protestants p. 200 CHAP. IV. An Answer to a pretended Demonstration That the Roman Church is the True Catholick Church p. 225 CHAP. V. Of the number of Sacraments with some other things briefly discust and the conclusion of the whole p. 239 A DIALOGUE BETWIXT TWO PROTESTANTS In Answer to a Popish Catechism CALLED A Short Catechism against all Sectaries PART I. A DIALOGUE BETWIXT A Teacher and a Learner CHAP. I. Concerning the true Church and the marks of it and first of its Unity Learner SIR I live in a place where there are many of those who call themselves Roman Catholicks and though I care not much for disputing with them for I seldom find any thing comes of it but anger and ill words yet I cannot always avoid it For some of them are my near Relations and they sometimes put Books into my hands and sometimes bring their Priest along with them to convince me and are still earnestly urging me to change my Religion and to forsake the Church of England telling me plainly that no Salvation is to be had out of the Church of Rome Teacher That I know is their common Doctrine but it is so very unreasonable and so horridly uncharitable that this alone were enough to keep a man from becoming a Papist since if he thorowly embrace their principles he must condemn all but those of their own way And believe it they had need to consider well how they can hope for mercy themselves who pass so severe a sentence upon others But thanks be to God whatever they talk of St. Peters Keys they are not hereafter to be our Judges nor are salvation and damnation at their disposing That God who will judg both us and them according to his own Gospel will one day justifie and acquit thousands whom they have condemned And therefore never be daunted by their insolent language and heavy censures The very same you may sometimes hear from Quakers and others of the vilest Sects For still the less reason the more wrath and considence that by bold and threatning talk they may fright people into their way when they want good Arguments to perswade them L. I believe it is so yet I 'le confess to you I am sometimes a little puzled with some of their subtle discourses and therefore I would desire you to furnish me with plain answers to the chief of those arguments which they commonly insist on These I think I can pretty well remember having heard them so often but to help my memory I have brought with me a little Book wherein they are contained and from thence shall propose them T. I shall readily give you my assistance herein Let me hear then how do they use to assault you L. Those I have met with do commonly begin with telling me as I find it here also in some of the first pages of this their book That there is but one Lâ—rd and one Faith one Religion and one Church wherein a man can be saved as there was but one Ark of Noah wherein he and his family were preserved T. We easily grant that there is one true Religion even that which Christ hath revealed and is therefore called the Christian Religion and there is one Catholick Church viz. the whole body of Christian people who embrace this Religion But there are many particular Churches which hold this same Faith as of old the Church of Ierusalem of Antioch c. so now of England of Scotland c. What then can they infer hence to their purpose L. That as Turks and Jews cannot be saved so no more can Hereticks T. It still beseems us to be more careful for the saving of our own souls than hasty in condemning of others Wherefore let us leave the condition of such who never heard the Gospel nor had any opportunity of hearing it to the wise and just Judg of all the Earth who will do right to all As for Hereticks they are such as deny some essential part of the Christian Faith and therefore properly speaking are not Christians But what 's all this to us L. They say that we of the Church of England are Hereticks out of the Catholick Church and therefore cannot be saved T. Say it they commonly do but are never able to prove it since we believe the whole Religion of our blessed Saviour contained in the holy Scriptures We receive the ancient Creeds of the Church wherein is contained the summ of this Religion How then are we Hereticks L. Because we are not of the Roman Church which is the congregation of those who own the Bishop of Rome to be Christs Vicar and the visible Head of his Church upon earth which congregation they say is the Catholick Church and the only true way to salvation and they who are not of this communion are Hereticks and Sectaries T. This is the current Popish Doctrine but had it been the opinion of the Primitive Church in the Apostles days or soon after surely they would have given some such a definition as this of the Catholick Church or at least have call'd it the Roman Catholick Church as Papists now do but it s neither so called in the Creed nor this Article so explained by any Christian Writer in those days or long after L. Who then are to be reckoned as members of the Catholick Church T. Even all good Christians through the whole world that do sincerely believe and obey the Gospel of our blessed Saviour These are the true members of his Church and all who profess to do so are the outward visible members of this Catholick Church And in this sense we acknowledg with your Author that Christ hath always had a visible Church on Earth and will be with it to the end of the world nor shâ—â—â— the Gates of Hell be able to prevail against it Nor do we say as he charges us that the whole Church has been lost or put out but particular Churches in this place or that as at Ierusalem at Rome or any otherwhere may fall into great decay and at length into utter ruin Yet still Christ will have a Church upon earth still there will be men professing Christianity to whom
members of their Church they do separate themselves from all other Christians in the world who disown this Universal Headship of the Pope with the rest of their errors L. But they boast much of the Union of their Church because say they go where you will you shall find the same Worship the same Mass and this frequented in all places where their Church is owned by the members of it T. Still this is but an Union amongst themselves such I say as any party may have Quakers for instance may go to Quakers Meetings where ever they travel and yet still remain a Schismatical party And though I lay no great stress upon it yet formerly even in the Church of Rome however it is now with them they have had much variety in their publick Offices according to the different Usages of different places But still I say be they never so perfectly agreed in their own way of worship as well as in Doctrine there is nothing in this to prove them the One Catholick Church Nay it does not so much as prove them to be One with it as a sound part thereof except their Doctrine and Worship be such as agrees with that of the Catholick Church in all ages For any party I have told you may agree amongst themselves even whilst they are schismatically divided from others L. But they say our Church of England is not thus united because many separate from her Prayers and Sacraments T. And what is there no Unity therefore amongst the members of our Church because there are some who through peevishness weakness or any other cause separate from it Does not the main body of the people of this Kingdom through Gods mercy joyn in Religious communion and can freely resort to any Parish Church where they happen to be If some that live in the Nation will not thus joyn is that an argument against the union of those that do In some Popish Countries are there not many thousands who separate from the Church of Rome And do they take that for a good reason to prove them not to be united who joyn with it I trow not but yet it may do much to prove there is little true union amongst them to consider by what means they are held together viz. partly by force and violence at least in many places and partly by keeping the people in ignorance And is it not a fine kind of union think you to have men chain'd together in Iron fetters and kept in a dark Dungeon where they are not able to stir a foot from each other had they never so much mind And had the people in Italy and Spain but more light and more liberty you would quickly see what vast numbers would depart from their communion there as they have done in other places But ignorance is the bond of their union as well as the mother of their Devotion L. Yet is there nothing more common with them than to cry up the Unity of their Church and to exclaim against the divisions which they say are in ours T. They exclaim against them whilst more ways than one they endeavour to promote them They use also their utmost arts to aggravate and enhance them and make them be thought much greater than they are whilst they cunningly endeavour to lessen and conceal those amongst themselves which yet I reckon to be far greater than even those betwixt our Church and the generality of such as dissent from it And sometimes these their differences have been managed with as much heat and violence and have produced fighting and bloodshed as you will find largely related in the most learned Dr. Stillingfleet's Discourse on that subject But besides this certainly the Papists of all people have little reason to cry out against Schismaticks and Sectaries since they themselves will be found to be as great Schismaticks as any at this day amongst us and as dangerous too if we may judg of them by their principles For besides that the whole Popish Church may justly be accounted Schismatical in dividing it self from the rest of Christendom of which more hereafter those of them who live amongst us do wholly separate from our Church and pass a much more heavy doom upon us than I think most of our other Sectaries do For these do generally acknowledg the Church of England to be a true Church and grant her Doctrine to be sound and good and profess to hold communion with us in faith and love whilst they withdraw from us on account of some Modes and Ceremonies in Divine Worship Thus it is with many of them but now the Papists do plainly declare against our Church and Ministers that we have no true Faith nor Sacraments nor Christian virtue or piety but are cursed Hereticks in the most miserable state of damnation And all this chiefly because we submit not to the usurpation of a foreign power that of the Pope which at least in Spirituals they prefer before the power of our own Governours whether in Church or State So that in obedience to the Bishop of Rome who hath no more to do in England than the Bishop of Ierusalem they make no scruple of disobeying the King and Bishops and all the Laws of the Land at least I say in all matters that relate to Religion And whilst the Pope himself is Judg in the case what may he not hook in under that pretence And therefore may the Papists amongst us justly be reckoned as Schismaticks whilst they refuse communion with that Christian Church where they live which is a sound part of Christs Catholick Church and requires nothing unlawful of its members And very dangerous they are because they prefer a foreign Usurper before all the power of our own Church Especially if you also consider the current Doctrine of their Church that this same Usurper the Bishop of Rome has power to depose Heretical Kings as they account ours and to absolve their subjects from their Allegiance and dispose of their Kingdoms to others And this most intollerable tyranny over Princes have sundry Popes exercised when they have had power in their hands and have more than once attempted it in these Kingdoms Yea to this day many of the rigid and stricter sort of Papists refuse to take the Oath of Allegiance wherein this extravagant power of the Pope is denied Judg then whether I had not reason to say that men retaining these principles and on that account rejecting our communion are themselves such notorious and dangerous Schismaticks as have little reason to accuse others of schisms and divisions L. But though we own not the Pope to be an Infallible Iudg of Controversies have not we sufficient means for union in our Church T. Yes we have so whilst we acknowledg the Holy Scriptures to be the Infallible Rule of Faith in which all things necessary to salvation are plainly revealed and do also grant that the Governours of our Church have power to compose all differences
in Religion amongst our selves by proposing Articles of peace suppressing disputes about obscure and unnecessary matters and by determining of things indifferent in the worship of God according to the general rules of Scripture which principles being heartily embraced and honestly practised will procure as much peace and union in every Church as can be expected in this state of imperfection And by this means thanks be to God there is more true Christian unity to be found in our Church than amongst Papists themselves notwithstanding their Infallible Judg Pope or Council or they know not well who And what appearance of union there is amongst them is to be ascribed rather to the peoples ignorance than to the Popes knowledg yea to the Inquisition much rather than to his Infallibility L. I am well satisfied in this matter But before I proceed to the next mark pray tell me what is that unity which is required in a particular Church to make it lawful for a man to hold communion with it T. Plainly it is this that it be in union with the Catholick Church by holding the same faith which it has always held and using the same worship in all things substantial which it has always used And thus doth the Church of England whilst it owns the Holy Scripture as the Rule of Faith and receives the ancient Creeds wherein this Faith is briefly comprized which Scripture and Creeds have been generally received by the Catholick Church in former ages as well as this And in our Church is established the solemn Worship of the true God in the name of Jesus Christ and here the holy Sacraments are administred according to this rule of Holy Scripture and after the pattern of the Catholick Church in all ages from which the Church of Rome is most grossly degenerated as you may anon be more fully informed L. But does not the Church of Rome receive the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Creeds that we have and worship the true God in the name of Iesus Christ T. Yes they do so and thereby they do plainly approve of and confirm what we hold But then they have made additions of their own to this Faith and have brought many corruptions into this worship and thereby have occasion'd one of the greatest schisms that ever happened in the Church and are themselves the Schismaticks because they make unlawful terms of communion and exclude those who comply not with these terms So far as they are One with the Catholick Church we are One with them So far as they retain that Faith and Worship which has ever been approved of in the Church since the days of Christ and his Apostles we are ready to joyn in communion with them but the errors and corruptions which in latter times have been added and imposed these we utterly reject In these we must dissent from them that it may appear we are one with the ancient Catholick Church which never own'd many of those things which they now impose and we renounce as I shall after shew But let us proceed if you please to the other marks CHAP. II. Of the second mark of the true Church viz. Holiness L. THE next mark of the true Church is that it 's Holy which they say agrees to their Church not to ours Their Doctrine they pretend is holy not ours in their Church are multitudes of holy persons to be found whole Orders of them but out of it they say there is no true holiness no holy people nay nor can be T. It is a matter to be sadly lamented by all good men that among Christians of what profession or Church soever there is no more true piety and holiness to be found and that generally they are more zealous for promoting their own party and private opinions than holiness and righteousness without which we cannot be saved let the Church we are of be never so true and our opinions never so sound and orthodox But in this respect I do verily think there is no Church in the world more guilty than the Church of Rome nor any that less deserves to be stiled an Holy Church For proof of this I intend not to insist on that general loosness and impiety which abounds in Popish Countries and no where perhaps more than in Italy and Rome it self the Seat of his Holiness as they stile the Pope and yet a very sink of all sensuality and profaneness But that which I would have you chiefly to consider is this that several of those Doctrines of their Church which are properly stiled Popish and in which they differ from us do manifestly tend to the prejudice and hindrance of an holy life and do rather serve for an encouragement to sin and wickedness As for instance whilst they abuse the people with idle stories of Purgatory where they may make satisfaction for their sins and where they shall sometimes find much ease and at last be delivered out by the prayers that are said for them by Priests after their death to whom good store of money must be left for that end How does this tend to harden men in their sins and to prevent their timely reformation whilst the hope of a Purgatory takes off the fear of Hell Thus also they teach that Attrition that is being sorry for their sins for fear of punishment will procure their pardon if they make confession and are absolved by a Priest And at most easie rates do they grant Absolutions and Indulgences which must needs make men much more careless of their lives more bold to venture upon wickedness for which they have a pardon so ready at hand But besides these and other hurtful opinions we may plainly discern that in the several branches of Religion their gross corruptions have done much to destroy all true piety and goodness For instance instead of a serious spiritual affectionate worship of God which might help to conform the souls of men to the holiness of that God whom they worship they have invented a world of useless ridiculous Ceremonies which turn it into a kind of bodily exercise that little profits the soul. They have publick prayers in an unknown Tongue where it s enough for the people to be present though they scarce understand a word and what benefit can this afford to their minds Here also contrary to Gods express command they have brought in the worship of Images the Invocation of Saints and Angels especially of the Blessed Virgin as also the adoration of the Host that is of the consecrated Bread in their Mass all which are horrid impieties And even a great part of their private Devotions consists in saying over their Pater Nosters and Ave Maries so many times by rote of which they keep count by a sett of Beads And is this a due worship of God in spirit and truth with affection and reverence such as our Blessed Saviour enjoyns and as the very nature of God requires from all reasonable creatures Moreover as
Prayers and Sacraments are framed and ordered according to the rules of it and all most evidently tend to the producing of that holiness which the Gospel most strictly requires being a Doctrine according to godliness as the Apostle stiles it And through Gods blessing on his own Ordinances and the endeavours of his faithful Ministers there are great numbers amongst us who do live truly religious Christian holy lives as many I am apt to think as are to be found in any Christian Church throughout the world of the same largeness with ours As to the wickedness of others which we justly lament as good men in all ages have sadly lamented the same this is the fault of particular persons and not to be charged upon the Church which owns no Doctrines that promote wickedness much less does she require of her members the embracing and professing of any such false and mischievous Doctrines nor does she impose upon them any thing which God has forbidden nor restrain them from any duty which he has commanded This therefore may sufficiently shew the Holiness of our Church to be such as that we may lawfully hold communion with it yea and are bound so to do since there is nothing sinful required of us in order thereto but here we may be as pious and holy as in any Church whatever and I think have as great helps and encouragements thereto L. My Author grants that there are some in our Church who appear modest and charitable and so there are among the Heathens but he says its all but outward appearance since we have no true Religion as he pretends and therefore can have no true virtue T. How utterly groundless and unjust is this charge whilst as hath been said before we do most firmly believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God and from this our belief in him and his holy Gospel do our works proceed and out of true love to God and to our brother Judg then whether they who have that faith in Christ which works by love are to be reckoned amongst Heathens and Infidels Or rather are not they destitute both of Christian charity and common modesty and ingenuity who talk at this absurd and most malicious rate L. Indeed I see not how they can excuse themselves herein but yet I hear them boasting often what numbers of Saints and Martyrs they have had in their Church both in former and latter ages and will allow no Saints in any other Church but theirs T. As to Saints of latter ages they keep up the names and tell fine stories of some of whom its much doubted whether they ever had a being in the world But which is far worse there are some whom they cry up for Saints and Martyrs who died as Rebels and Traytors against their Prince in a blind furious zeal for their great Master the Pope Such was their Thomas à Becket formerly and Garnet lately with others of the like stamp But as to the true Saints of former ages though some of them might live in the same places in which they of the Romish Church now do yet are they not to be accounted members of that Church according to its present constitution since they were utter strangers to those falshoods and superstitions which are now establish'd amongst them only they embraced that same pure plain Christian Religion which is at this day profest with us and are therefore rather to be reckoned of our Church than theirs L. This is plain enough but what say you to the great numbers of Religious people still amongst them viz. those of their several Orders in their Monasteries and Nunneries that live single lives being retired from the world that they may wholly give up themselves to Gods service for they talk much of these when they boast of the holiness of their Church T. For my part I hope there are some amongst them who deserve the name of Religious and where there is one truly so I wish there were an hundred Yea I would to God that both with them and all other Churches every man who is called a Christian may walk worthy of his holy profession I have no desire to make any party of men worse than indeed they are nor any delight in representing how bad they be or are commonly censured at least And therefore I shall say nothing of all that filthiness and lewdness which in former times their Monks and Nuns have been severely accused of by some of their own Church for I care not for raking in such a channel Nor shall I take notice how much they are degenerated from the first institution of a Monastick life in which men were wont to be very diligent and industrious in some honest and useful employment But yet that you may not be abused by fair shows and specious pretences I would not have you think that men and women are ever the more holy and religious for leaving their families and callings and shutting up themselves in Cloisters there to repeat over so many Creeds and Pater-Nosters in a day For there is no encouragement given in the Gospel for our entring into such a lazy retired course of life Nor is it at all like to the life of our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles neither do they hereby bring that honour to God nor that good to the world which by a more free and active life they might do So that I doubt not but that in thousands of pious well ordered families there is more true devotion yea more purity and chastity than in most of these their Religious Houses as they call them But beside all this there is one thing I would have you seriously to consider that though I grant there may be and I hope are some Papists truly religious whether in their Cloisters or out of them yet it is not as they are Papists but as they are Christians of the same faith with us who are reformed from their errors So that whatever holiness is amongst them it makes nothing for the honour of Popery that is of those Doctrines wherein they differ from us but of Christianity in its purity and simplicity as it is profest amongst us To speak yet plainer if need be any of them that are truly good become so through the grace of God by their firm and effectual belief of the Christian Religion viz. that Jesus Christ is the Son of God that he died for our sins and rose again for our justification that he will come to judge the quick and the dead and will sentence the wicked to everlasting punishment and receive the righteous to life eternal Such as these are the great truths of our Religion which being heartily believed and seriously considered do by Gods blessing thoroughly change mens hearts and lives and make them truly pious and good But no body becomes so by his believing that the Bishop of Rome is Christs Vicar and has power over all the Princes on earth that their Church is
Romish Church But for the Papist the happy man that has had the good luck to hit into this true Church they have so many tricks and quirks to secure him in his life at his death and after it that let his faults be what they will it s very strange if he miss of Heaven at least after he has taken Purgatory in his way if he was very poor for rich men may easily escape that too or get soon out of it if they 'l follow the Priests directions Such fine devices they have to give men a lift to Heaven without putting them to the trouble of walking in that narrow way of serious holiness which alone leads thither So that I cannot but say and without any prejudice or partiality I speak it notwithstanding all that noise and talk of holiness in the Church of Rome nothing but Holy Mother Church Holy Father the Pope Holy Altars Holy Images Holy Water Holy Crosses Beads Agnus Dei's Reliques and a thousand holy trinkets more yet I think there is as little true holiness of life and conversation to be found amongst them as in any Church of the world Yea we shall often find that when those of that way are told of the holy Lives of many Protestants or are themselves exhorted to strictness and piety of life as that wherein true Religion chiefly consists they will be ready presently to make a puff at it as if this was of no value in comparison of being of the true Church of the infallible Catholick Church as they fondly call their own Sect as if being in a good Church would secure a bad man when we are so plainly taught that without holiness no man shall see God let him be of what Church he will Wherefore to conclude this remember that since in the Church of England the holy Gospel is most purely taught and the holy Sacraments duly administred according to our Saviours own institution and the members of it are neither required to profess any falshood or practise any evil in order to their communion with it but on the contrary are most strictly enjoyned to be holy in all their conversation and do here enjoy all manner of helps and advantages thereto therefore I say this is such an Holy Church as that you may and ought to hold communion with it Proceed we now to the following Marks of the true Church CHAP. III. Of the third mark of the true Church that it's Catholick L. THE next mark he lays down of the true Church is that its Catholick And here they make great boasting and triumphing for they say none else call themselves Catholicks but they nor as they pretend have any reason so to do since they tell of vast numbers belonging to their Church in all places of the world far and near and how they convert Heathens whilst Protestants they say are but a little handful here and there in corners amongst a multitude of Catholicks T. As to what they call themselves it matters little for be sure they 'l give themselves good words Neither is it true that none but they lay claim to that name for we of this Church do esteem our selves true Catholick Christians as professing the ancient Catholick faith of Christ and so do frequently stile both our selves and our Doctrine and with good reason as I doubt not to demonstrate As to their great numbers compared to other Christians suppose what they alledge were true as it is most false yet is this no sufficient argument of their being true Catholicks for that 's to be judged by the truth of their Doctrines and not by the number of Professors For if we should at this rate go to the Poll and judg of truth by most votes then might the Mahometans carry it from Christians And heretofore the number of the Arrians was said to be greater than of the Orthodox But that 's to be accounted a true part of the Catholick Church which professes the Catholick faith even the same Christian Religion which all good Christians in all ages former as well as latter and of all Nations have ever constantly profest And by this rule you will find that the Church of England is a most true and sound part of the Catholick Church as professing this same Christian faith contain'd in the Gospel and summ'd up in the Apostles Creed Here you may remember what I have before told you that it is most vain and unreasonable for any one particular Church to stile her self the whole Catholick Church as if there were no Christians in the world but themselves And yet in this sense doth the Church of Rome stile her self Catholick the absurdity of which I have before shewed And there needs nothing more to manifest it than this single consideration that there are thousands and millions of Christians in several parts of the world who neither now do nor ever did own the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome which is the great fundamental article of their faith to pass by all others at present and yet all these whilst they embrace the whole Christian Doctrine taught in the holy Scriptures are to be lookt on as true Catholick Christians though they do not believe the Bishop of Rome to be Christs Vicar upon earth invested with Supremacy over all Christian Churches for this is a Doctrine which our Saviour never taught his Disciples Now without owning this false Doctrine a man cannot be of the Church of Rome according to the Decrees of their Popes and Councils and yet without this I say a man may receive the whole Christian Religion as it was delivered by Christ and his Apostles and therefore he may be a true Catholick Christian though he be not of the Romish Church nor yields subjection to it L. This seems to me very plain and clear T. But it will appear yet more plain if you consider what is a most certain truth that there can be no manner of good evidence given that the Church of Christ for some hundred years after our blessed Saviours time did ever receive this Doctrine of the Popes Supremacy or his Infallibility Nay our learned men assert that there is not so much as any one Christian Writer for at least three hundred years after that time some say four or five that did ever so much as teach any such strange Doctrine as this How then I beseech you can the owning of it now be necessary to make a man a Catholick when the whole Catholick Church for some ages after its first Plantation was a meer stranger to it L. I think there is no appearance of reason for it T. To this add that the whole Greek which was much larger than the Romish before it was over-run by the Turks ever disown'd these same new opinions of the Popes Supremacy and Infallibility with many others of the same stamp neither do they generally embrace them to this day though sometimes the Romanists have used all manner of arts and devices
of the most ancient Fathers or in the Decrees of the first Councils but since we find no such thing we may firmly conclude them to be no essential Articles of the Christian Faith As if now that party in the Roman Church which asserts the freedom of the Blessed Virgin from Original sin should so far prevail as to get a Council like that packt up at Trent to establish this new opinion as an Article of Faith would it not be enough for us to reply that this is no where to be found in Scripture or in the Creed and therefore whether true or false yet certainly is no article of faith And thus we shew our selves to be of the same faith with the Catholick Church of old whilst we embrace the very same Articles which she did and what more is obtruded upon us as part of the faith we do constantly reject it either as false or as unnecessary Though as to all or most of the points which we thus reject you will find sufficient evidence against them in holy Scripture as I shall afterward shew L. But they commonly say that they have only established these new Doctrines in opposition to new Heresies with which the Church in former times was not troubled and therefore did not so fully and expresly determine against them as they now have done yet they pretend that these their new Articles were plainly implied and contain'd under some head or other of ancient Doctrine T. All this is most false and frivolous since if these new coin'd Articles of theirs had been true there was the same reason why they should have been taught anciently as well as now and occasion enough was frequently offered To instance in one for all If Saint Peter was indeed to have been made supreme Governour of the Christian Church and the Bishops of Rome after him would not our Saviour have told his Apostles so when they were contending who should be greatest And after this in the Primitive times when there were often hot contentions amongst Bishops and Churches would they not all have appeal'd to the Pope for the decision of their controversies and have yielded submission to his sentence if this had been the current Doctrine of the Church that he was their Supreme Governour and Infallible Judg But alas we find no such matter And consider further that when Heresies arose the ancient Fathers who wrote against them plainly shew'd how they contradicted the Holy Scripture and the common Doctrine contain'd in the Creed as explain'd by those who went before them Thus when the Arrians denied the Divinity of our Saviour the Orthodox both proved it by Scripture and urged that Article of the Creed that Jesus is the Son of God which they shew'd was still interpreted of his partaking of a Divine nature as was afterward therefore more fully exprest in the Nicene Creed But now where can Papists shew Scripture in proof of their Novelties Or in what Article of the Creed will they prove them to be virtually contain'd and shew that the Article was so understood by those Ancients who have written Comments on the Creed How will they by this method make out that the Pope is Christs Vicar on Earth not surely because Christ is the Son of God Or what because there is mention made of the Catholick Church must that be meant only of the Roman Church so that none must belong to it but those who yield subjection to the Pope But what ancient Writer did ever thus explain this or the other Article And to what Articles I beseech you must we reduce those other peculiar Doctrines of theirs Transubstantiation Purgatory c. with the rest of their gross Errors and Innovations These therefore do we most justly reject as being corrupt additions to the ancient Christian Faith the common Faith of Gods Holy Catholick Church which we retain firm and entire without adding or diminishing CHAP. IV. Of the fourth Mark of the true Church that it is Apostolick L. BY your last discourse I am fully satisfied how little reason Papists have to assume and engross to themselves the title of Catholicks and that our Church of England is a true and sound part of the Catholick Church And at the same time I do also perceive that the last mark of a true Church doth as properly belong to it viz. that it is Apostolick T. This is indeed so very plain from what hath been said under the former head that I reckon there is little need to spend much time in speaking particularly to it For as I have often inculcated our Church receives all those Doctrines which we are certain were taught by the Apostles that faith which was delivered by them to the Churches which they planted as it is to be found at large in their writings and which is summ'd up in that which we call the Apostles Creed as being the Summary of their Doctrine All the Articles of this Creed we do stedfastly embrace and profess and that in the plain sense of the words according to the commonly received interpretation of the Church of Christ in the first and purest ages And thus our Doctrine is Apostolical so also is our Government our Worship and Administration of the holy Sacraments and therefore our Church doth most justly deserve the title of an Apostolical Church For according to the precepts and example of the Apostles we worship the true God in the name of his Son Jesus our only Mediator and that in a language understood by the people We baptize with water In the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost And in the Lords-Supper do give both Bread and Wine to the people according to our Saviours own institution In a word we preach the very same Faith the same holiness and righteousness of life which the Apostles did But on the other hand it 's most certain that as to the chief points wherein the Church of Rome and we differ the Apostles never delivered those Doctrines nor enjoyn'd those practices which are obtruded upon us by that corrupt Church They never taught that the Bishop of Rome is the supreme and infallible Head of the Church They never taught us to pray to Angels or Saints no not to the Blessed Virgin her self nor to make Prayers for the Dead that they might be delivered out of Purgatory nor to take away the Cup from the Laity nor to worship the consecrated Host to adore Images or to make any use of them in Religious service These things with many others now used in the Church of Rome were never taught or practised by the Holy Apostles and therefore so far that Church is not Apostolical L. I do verily believe it deserves not that name with respect to those Doctrines and practices wherein it differs from us But I hear them often making great boasts that theirs must certainly be an Apostolical Church because an Apostle himself was once their Bishop even St. Peter and he ordained another
Bishop to succeed him and so hath the succession continued to this day and therefore sure they must needs be an Apostolical Church T. In answer to this I shall wave the dispute whether indeed St. Peter was ever Bishop of Rome or no and shall pass by all that may be said of the frequent Schisms which have happen'd amongst them by their having sometimes two or three Popes at once and that for many years together nor shall I tell of the fine tricks and politick intrigues of the Cardinals at the Election of a Pope nor of those vile arts which are frequently used by such as aspire to that dignity all which tends very much to abate their honour and shews how unlike they are to the Apostles whose Successors they boast themselves to be But waving these things let me only desire you to consider how little force there is in this argument to prove their Church to be now Apostolical that once there was an Apostle Bishop of it except there still continue with them the same truth of Doctrine and purity of worship which the Apostles did at first teach and establish For let us grant that St. Peter and St. Paul with other holy men planted a Church at Rome yet is it not possible that here as well as at Ephesus might afterward arise men who should teach perverse things as we find it exprest Act. 20. 30. and thereby corrupt the Doctrine of the Gospel Was it not thus in many other Churches And may it not be so at Rome too yea most certainly we know it is so For though we grant that Church to have remain'd for a considerable time pure and uncorrupted yet for many ages by-past to this very day there have been such Doctrines and practices currently received and established in that Church as the Apostles never taught to them nor to any others And with respect to these I say they deserve not the title of an Apostolical Church meerly because an Apostle at first planted it and presided over it The Papists themselves will not now allow this title to any of the Greek Churches which were planted by the Apostles because they look upon them as erroneous and schismatical and certainly they themselves have as little reason to challenge it as any of their neighbours being at least as grosly degenerated as any though they may have more prosperity and greater numbers of people adhering to them It is not then so much the sitting in the same Chair as teaching the same Doctrines with the Apostles that makes a Bishop to be a true Successor of them Wherefore those Churches which were planted by holy men after the Apostles were dead and gone if they receive the same Doctrine and retain the same worship and Sacraments which the Apostles did these may most justly be accounted Apostolical Churches sound members of the One Holy Catholick Apostolick Church of Christ. L. I think there is great reason so to account them but it seems very unreasonable that any one Church should stile it self the Apostolick Church so as to exclude all others from that title especially so unsound a Church as that of Rome which is at this day so very unlike to what it was in the times of the Apostles T. It is indeed every whit as unreasonable as to arrogate to themselves alone the name of Catholick which we discoursed of before Nay let us suppose that the Bishops of Rome to this very day followed the example of the Apostles preached the same Doctrine led the same good lives and used the same holy worship and discipline so that their Church indeed deserved to be own'd as Apostolical yet what in reason could be infer'd from hence more than this viz. that the people in their own Diocess should be subject to them and that all other sister Churches ought to give them due respect and maintain such communion with them as those at a distance are capable of But it does not in the least follow that the Bishop of Rome is Christs Vicar upon Earth and their Church the only Catholick and Apostolick Church so that none must have this title but those who inslave themselves to the Pope L. You have said enough to convince me how very absurd it is for the Church of Rome to stile her self the Catholick Apostolick Church as if there were no other Christians in the world but Papists yet pray tell me may not the Church of Rome be reckoned a part of the Catholick Church T. At the best it is but a small part as I have before told you and also a very unsound part Yea I will not doubt to add that take the Church of Rome even in the largest sense as comprehending all those that submit to the Pope as Head of the whole Church under Christ they may justly be reckoned a Schismatical party dividing themselves from the rest of the Catholick Church setting up a false Head and Governour and appointing unlawful terms of communion And though in this respect the Masters and leaders of the faction are in the greatest guilt yet the people who are seduced are also more or less guilty according to the capacity they are in of geting better information But yet notwithstanding this schism they are in and notwithstanding the many errors and abuses that are amongst them whilst they profess the Christian Religion and own their Baptism they may be allow'd the name of Christians such as belong to the visible Church of Christ. And how uncharitable soever they are to us I hope there are many good Christians amongst them who do heartily believe the Gospel and live in obedience to it according to their knowledg and who on that account may be stiled true members of the Catholick Church as all honest true hearted Christians are notwithstanding those errors and faults they may be guilty of which do not utterly violate their Baptismal Covenant nor destroy that faith and holiness by which we are united to Christ the Head and so are living members of his body the Church But still I say this title belongs not to them as they are Papists embracing the peculiar tenents of their own Church but as they are Christians holding the essential Articles of the Christian Faith together with our own and all other Churches For as to Popery it is really a disease a corruption of the Christian Religion Yet as a diseased man may have his vitals so sound that even the Plague or Leprosie may not kill him so may there be some amongst the Papists in whom the great and common truths of Religion may be so deeply implanted and so faithfully retained and improved that the disease of Popery may not prove mortal Whilst they hold the foundation Jesus Christ and his Gospel though the hay and stubble which they build upon it shall be burnt yet may they through the mercy of God in Christ be saved so as by fire that is with great difficulty 1 Cor. 3. 11 12 c. And
their case seems most pitiable who through the disadvantage of their education want due means of instruction and what allowances our gracious God will make on that and the like accounts is fittest for us to leave to his own infinite wisdom Only let us be careful to regulate our own practices by the plain rule of Gods holy Word which through his favour we so plentifully enjoy L. What you say shall teach me more charity to those of them that are sincere than they will allow to us But I do still more and more perceive how little reason there is for my entring into communion with that Church in which there is so great hazard of Salvation even no more than for my venturing into a Pest-house full of infected persons because it 's possible some of them may have so much strength of nature as to overcome that dangerous distemper T. The case is much the same CHAP. V. Of some particular points in difference betwixt us and the Church of Rome and first of the Popes Supremacy L. HAving now received so full satisfaction in this first great point concerning the true Catholick Church what it is and who are the members of it and being upon good grounds firmly perswaded that the Church of England is a very sound part of this Catholick Church in whose communion therefore by Gods grace I hope to live and die I would in the next place gladly hear you discourse of some of those particular points wherein chiefly the difference lyes betwixt us and the Church of Rome For they alledg many plansible reasons and sometimes quote Scripture for those opinions of theirs which we reject as Popery and therefore I would gladly be furnisht with solid and good answers to these their Allegations T. Most readily shall I afford you my assistance herein Only let me premise that suppose in this or that particular opinion you should fancy their Church had the truth on her side yea though it really was so yet is this no sufficient reason why you should go over to their communion since from what has been said you may discern that their Church has no manner of jurisdiction over ours which we shall presently make more plain and you cannot lawfully desert your own Church meerly because you apprehend there is some error commonly received in it whilst you have liberty to hold communion with it without owning and professing that error And though for my own part I declare I do not know so much as any one material point of difference wherein the Church of Rome has the truth on her side yet this I speak with respect to those who in some particular cases may be of another mind and afterward may have occasion to make use of it accordingly But now proceed to those several points wherein you desire satisfaction L. I will so and shall herein follow the method in which I find them laid down in this little Book to which I have hitherto had recourse And the first thing here mention'd is concerning one Pope in the Church viz. the Bishop of Rome who is they say to be own'd as the visible Head and Governour of the whole Church under Christ. T. This is indeed the most fundamental point of the Romish faith by which chiefly they stand distinguisht from all other Churches and as such I have often upon occasion mention'd it already and have told you that there is not a word of it in the Apostles Creed which is the summ of the Christian Faith nor yet in the Holy Scriptures whence that Creed was taken which may be sufficient prejudice against it but pray what do they alledg in proof of it L. Both this my Author and others commonly plead that as there is one Emperour in an Empire one King in a Kingdom one Master in a family so there should be one Pope in the Church T. I think they should rather infer the quite contrary that as there is a Master in every Family a King in every Kingdom c. so in every Diocess there should be a Bishop and in every Nation a Primate or chief Bishop or else a Synod of Bishops from whom there should lye no appeal to any foreign Bishop whatsoever It would indeed have look'd a little more like an argument for their purpose if they could have said that as there is one Emperor over all the Kings and Kingdoms of the world so there ought to be one Pope over all Bishops and Churches But as it appears impossible for one man to govern the whole world so neither is it much easier for one Bishop to govern all the Christians in the world especially if all Nations should embrace Christianity as every good man desires they should But to let pass their little similies and idle fancies do you think if it had been a matter of such necessity to salvation as Papists say it is to own the Pope as Christs Vicar and visible Head of the Catholick Church do you think I say that our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles would not have told us of it and have given strict command to all Christians to obey him and to seek to his Infallible judgment in all doubts and controversies and submit to his authority for the composing of all differences whereas we now find not one syllable to this purpose either in the Gospel or Epistles but Christians are exhorted to obey their own Rulers both Sacred and Civil and to take the Doctrine delivered by our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles as the Infallible Rule of their faith and manners and no other Head of the Church do we read of but our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to whom all power is given in Heaven and Earth as he himself tells us Matt. 28. 18. But he no where tells us that he hath transfer'd all this power to any mortal man nor setled any person as his Vicar and Deputy-Governour of all the Christian world L. Yes they say Christ gave this priviledg to Saint Peter stiling him the Rock on which he would build his Church and giving him the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven Matt. 16 18 19. and from Saint Peter they would have this power to be derived to his Successors the Bishops of Rome T. This is the Text which they commonly bring for their purpose but with how little reason may appear at the very first sight whilst neither is here confer'd upon St. Peter any such power as to be Ruler over all the Christian Church nor the least mention made of any priviledge whatever to be convey'd from him to his Successors at Rome or any other where As to the Rock here spoken of many of the Ancients understand by it the Doctrine which St. Peter had now profest that great fundamental article of the Christian Faith that Iesus was the Christ the Son of the living God But let us suppose it to be meant of his person as he was to be a Preacher of this Doctrine yet
confirming their belief of his Doctrine The Doctrine was to be believed but the miracle was to be seen which confirm'd that Doctrine To instance in one for all When the water was turn'd into wine Ioh. 2. it was now seen and tasted to be true wine only it was much better than common wine Otherwise do you think if it had still had the colour the smell and the taste of water that the people would have been perswaded it was turned into wine Would they have been satisfied with an odd story that the substance was wine though the accidents of water still remain'd or with any such idle unintelligible talk Would such a sort of miracle as this that could no way be perceived ever have been believed Or would the pretence to such miracles ever have gain'd Disciples to our Saviour And yet such a one is this of Transubstantiation L. So very strange and unaccountable it is that it never ought to be admitted without very good proof T. And is it not then almost as strange that ever any man should believe so absurd a Doctrine not only without good proof but even against the express words of Scripture as well as against his reason and senses L. No matter for sense and reason they cry but how do you prove it to be against Scripture T. It may be proved from those places which tell us of our Saviours being received into Heaven as Act. 3. 21. and he cannot at the same time be corporally present upon earth and in heaven too L. But did he not appear to St. Paul and others after his Ascension T. Yes he did so yet does not this prove him to be then corporally present for he might render himself visible to them without descending as he did to St. Stephen or he might appear to them in a Vision and make himself present to their imagination Or he might be said to appear to them by his Angel whom he sent For thus in Scripture it 's commonly said God appear'd to this or that man when he sent his Angel to him with some message But besides this the plain words of the Evangelists when they relate the institution of this Holy Sacrament do directly contradict this Doctrine of Transubstantiation For they tell us that our Saviour took bread and blessed it and brake it even the very same that he took that he blest and what he blest that he broke and what is this but true bread as to its natural substance Only in a mystical and spiritual sense it was made the Body of Christ by Consecration And thus also St. Paul calls it Bread after Consecration no less than three times in three verses together 1 Cor. 11. 26 c. L. This my Author grants but says it 's called so because the external accidents of bread do still remain T. That is because the colour shape and taste of bread do still remain with all other qualities of common bread Now I beseech you can there be any better or surer way to discover what is the substance or nature of a thing than by such accidents such outward sensible appearances as these How can we distinguish bread from a stone or water from wine but by the colour the smell the taste or the like And thus do we here distinguish bread from flesh and wine from blood and do believe that to be bread which is both call'd so in Scripture and which our own eyes discern to be indeed so L. But he says faith will teach us otherwise from the Word of God T. Nay on the contrary you see Gods word calls it bread after the Consecration and therefore both our faith and our senses assure us that it is bread Nor does this in the least contradict our Saviours words when he says This is my body for so it is in a spiritual sense whilst yet the substance of bread remains unchanged and therefore most properly is it called bread which it could in no wise be if no such substance was there Yet still we say that by partaking of these holy Elements of bread and wine we do really partake of Christs body and blood though in a spiritual manner according to St. Pauls expression 1 Cor. 10. 16. Do you judge then who keeps closest to Scripture in this point they or we L. To me it seems plain that the Doctrine and language of our Church is no less agreeable to Scripture than to reason And I still discover what injury they do us whilst they charge us with holding that the Sacrament is only the figure of Christs body T. It is as I have already said a most false charge for though it be the figure of his body and expresly called so by some ancient Writers yet we own it to be much more than so For in this holy Sacrament are given to us Christs body and blood whilst the blessings and benefits of his Death and Passion are made over to and bestow'd upon the worthy receiver And so our Church expresses it in the Office at the Communion We do spiritually eat the flesh of Christ and drink his blood Christ dwelleth in us and we in him we are one with Christ and he with us L. Yet they say we make the Sacraments of the New Testament in effect no better than the old since the Passover and such like were figures of Christ whereas in the New Testament is to be given the real verity T. A most plain difference we make whatever they say to the contrary for besides that our Sacraments are few and easie clear and intelligible it is to be considered that under the Law were used types and shadows which prefigured Christ to come and that somewhat obscurely whereas the Sacraments now used do most plainly shew him to be already come and to have died for our sins and risen again according to the Scriptures Herein moreover is made to us a more plenteous communication of grace and comfort as the fruit of his Death and Resurrection according to that of the Evangelist The Law was given by Moses but grace and truth came by Iesus Christ Joh. 1. 17. Yet after all we assert that the Elements made use of in these Sacraments of the New Testament are no more changed as to their natural substance than those of the Old that is they are still Sacraments outward visible signs and representations of Spiritual things and are not changed into those very things themselves which they are designed to represent and hold forth to us And this is granted by the Papists themselves as to one of the Sacraments viz. that of Baptism For the water herein made use of still remains water It is not turned into the natural blood of Christ and yet by virtue of that blood which this water represents are our sins washt away in this Laver of Regeneration Hence then it is most evident that the efficacy of a Sacrament consists not in having the natural substance of the Elements altered for then
there would be no virtue in Baptism And consequently neither doth the excellency of the Sacraments of the New Testament above those of the Old consist in any such alteration for if it did then Baptism should not be prefer'd before Circumcision or any of the washings and sprinklings used under the Law since in Baptism water still remains true water And if this be no disadvantage or dishonour to the holy Sacrament of Baptism then no more is it to the other Sacrament that the Bread and Wine used therein do still remain true Bread and Wine as to their natural substance after Consecration L. I cannot imagin any reason for the putting a difference in this case betwixt the two Sacraments And I do a little wonder they should be so careless as to use an argument which if it had any truth er force in it would plainly tend to the disparaging of the Sacrament of Baptism T. You must not expect good arguments in a bad cause but has your Author no better than these L. I find no more arguments on this subject only he makes use of a sumilitude that if a Father should leave to his Son his House and Garden by his last Will would the Son understand by this the picture of the House and Garden or the things themselves in truth In like manner he infers that our Saviour has not left us the bare figures of his Body and Blood but these very substances in the Sacrament T. Rather we may infer that in like manner did our Blessed Saviour truly give up himself for us on the Cross there shedding his blood for the remission of our sins and doth in this Holy Sacrament really confer the blessings purchased by his death upon all true believers and by this means he does most truly give himself to them according to his promise even much more to their advantage than if he had given them his natural flesh and blood in the Sacrament L. I think my Authors Simile does him little service T. Service do you say rather if you consider it well it will be found to make directly against his own opinion For suppose your Father had left you an House and Land by his Will and appointed some body after his death to put you in possession of it by giving you a key and a turf or twig when this is done do you take this key to be the very house or the turf or twig to be the land no surely but only in effect and in the sense of the Law they are so since by these the house and land are made over to you and by receiving them you are put in actual possession of them as fully and effectually as if the whole house and all the land had been put into your hands if that had been possible And thus I say by these Holy Elements doth our Blessed Saviour make over himself and all the blessings of the Covenant to his faithful people L. The resemblance is very plain and helps me still better to understand how fitly the Body and Blood of Christ may be said to be verily and indeed received by the faithful in the Lords Supper without giving the least coununance to this Doctrine of Transubstantiation T. That you may be sure of these being the very words used in our Church-Catechism and many the like expressions we find in the Office at the Communion some of which I mention'd before Yet all this while it 's well known how utterly our Church disowns this absurd opinion so contrary to sense and reason and to the express words of Scripture as I have shew'd Yet give me leave in a few words further to manifest how without admitting this opinion we may very properly affirm That Christ is verily and indeed received by the faithful in this holy Supper viz. 1 In a moral sense as servants receive their Master by taking earnest and subjects their Prince by taking the Oath of Allegiance For here we do solemnly profess our selves the disciples servants and subjects of the blessed Jesus and by taking these holy symbols of bread and wine do receive him as our Lord and Saviour to whom we promise and vow all humble obedience and through whom alone we hope for mercy and salvation 2 Here also do we receive those graces of his holy Spirit which transform us into his likeness so that Christ himself may be said to come into us to take possession of us and to dwell in us and we in him even by saith and love and by our likeness to him in all humility purity charity and those other graces which make us partakers of a Divine Nature and may well be stiled Christ in us the hope of glory all which are confirmed and increased by our worthy communicating at this holy Table So that passing by other things that might be added to this purpose you may hence see how properly the holy Elements may be called the Body and Blood of Christ of which they are the Sacrament and Symbol and which they do really convey to us as much to our advantage as if they were changed into the very natural substance of what they represent For suppose we should eat Christs natural flesh and drink his blood what are our souls the better for this if the graces of his Spirit do not accompany them But if these graces are bestow'd on us by our worthy receiving of the holy Elements of Bread and Wine what loss is it to us that these remain unchanged as to their substance L. None at all that I can imagin T. You may be sure of it since what is bodily reaches only to the body and not to the soul of man For as our Saviour tells us Mat. 15. 11. That what enters into the mouth defiles not a man of which he after gives the reason because it passeth into the belly and thence into the draught So neither can that which enters into the mouth of it self purifie and cleanse the soul of man because it 's only received into the body and so passes through it And this is that Doctrine which I have formerly told you our Blessed Saviour himself most plainly teaches Ioh. 6. 63. when he corrected the gross mistake of the dull Capernaites L. Yet how gross soever it was the Papists at this day seem to continue in it as if Christ had promised to give men his natural Flesh to eat T. And this they do contrary to our Saviours own explication of himself in vers 63. and to other places of Scripture before named and also contrary to all true Reason We will not set up our own shallow reasonings against the Holy Scripture but are ready most firmly to believe whatever we find therein plainly revealed And there we may find some things above our Reason though nothing contrary to it But now this Popish Doctrine of Transubstantiation it is both contrary to plain Scripture and is also full of so many palpable absurdities and contradictions that
it were almost endless to name them Yet the more to confirm you against it if need be let me mention a few of those many As for instance according to this opinion our Saviours body would be in ten thousand places at one viz. where ever the Consecrated host as they call it is At Rome and at Paris in the East-Indies and the West and in thousands of Churches where it 's reserved And in one place Christs body would rest upon the Altar in another it might be carrying toward a sick man It would be in one Priests box and in anothers hand in this mans mouth and in that mans stomach and all this one and the same body still Yea thus it must have been ever since the first institution of this Sacrament above sixteen hundred years ago Millions of men in the several ages and places of the world would all have eaten this self same body a thousand times over and yet still it remains whole and untouched the very same that it was from the beginning neither multiplied nor divided neither encreased nor diminished Again by this Doctrine every wafer and every part of the wafer is the whole body and a thousand wafers are only that one Yea what is more prodigious if any thing can be so according to this opinion our Blessed Saviour when he was present with his Apostles alive and well did then give himself into their hands to be eaten by them So that he was in their mouths and bellies at the same time that he was sitting amongst them and yet never shewed the least sign nor felt the least effect of any such change upon him And yet after all this same Body was next day offered up and his Blood poured out on the Cross. It deserves also to be considered how the breaking of Christ's natural Body and eating and swallowing it is consistent with its being still alive as surely they will grant it is Yea how this same Body should be at God's right hand shining in honour and glory and yet at the same time be set upon the Altar or carried in a Box yea eaten by Mice or by Worms and Flies But no questions must be asked no doubts or scruples raised all must be swallowed with an implicite Faith and they think to solve all well enough with crying nothing is impossible with God which any Man may as well pretend to justifie the grossest falshoods and absurdities in the World Though truly I think none can be imagined greater than what this opinion stands justly charged with That so mighty a change should be made in the very natural substance of the Bread and yet that there is no manner of appearance of it but still here is the same colour tast smell and all other accidents or qualities of Bread after Consecration as before And notwithstanding all this we must believe that there is no substance of Bread to which these accidents belong but the substance of Flesh without any accidents at all What strange prodigious fancies are these And what a scandal is it to our Religion what a mighty hindrance to the belief of it when such an unreasonable opinion shall be proposed as an Article of Faith And be made of equal necessity to be believed with the great Doctrines of the Trinity and Incarnation though it has no manner of support from the Holy Scripture as I have before shewn L. I confess if a Man thought he could not be a Christian without receiving this Opinion it would be a strong temptation to Infidelity and go nigh to make him reject our whole Religion T. Doubtless it would and I fear it has often produced this effect Woe be to them by whom the offence cometh Yea further it will appear that on some other accounts this Doctrine directly tends to promote Infidelity whilst as many Learned Writers have observed it does in a great measure evacuate and overthrow the main proofs of the Truth of Christianity For one great Argument our Saviour made use of was the Miracles which he wrought The works which I do saith he bear witness of me If you believe not me believe me for the works sake Now to make this Argument of any force it must be supposed that their Senses did not deceive them but what they saw and heard was really true For if our Senses are not to be relied on in judging of their own proper Objects at a due distance how could the people tell but that all these Miracles were meer cheats and delusions But if they had sufficient assurance that they were truly wrought because they saw them with their own eyes and thereupon had sufficient ground to believe that Religion to be true which was confirmed by them then have we as good reason to believe Transubstantiation to be most false since our Senses do as fully assure us that it is so And hence we are very certain that this could be none of the Doctrines which our Saviour taught because there would have been a direct contradiction betwixt the Doctrine it self and the Argument made use of to prove it for whilst he appeals to his Miracles he supposes that Men may trust their Senses in the discerning of proper Objects whereas according to this Doctrine no trust is to be given to them Moreover we know that our Saviours Resurrection was the great confirmation of his Doctrine and did demonstrate him to be the Son of God the promised Messiah Now how should it be known that the same Jesus who was Crucified was indeed risen from the dead but by their sight of him and converse with him Thus we read what full satisfaction it pleased our Saviour to give to St. Thomas in this respect permitting him to put his Fingers into the print of the Nails and to thrust his hand into his side and by this means all his doubts were removed Now the same ground that St. Thomas had to believe that the Body which was wounded and hung dead on the Cross was after raised again the very same have we to believe that the Bread and Wine in the Sacrament are not turned into the natural substance of Christ's Body and Blood even the full evidence of our Senses Whereas if St. Thomas and the rest of the Apostles at the institution of this Holy Sacrament a little before Christs Death had found their Senses to be so grosly deceived as Papists would perswade us I know not how they could well have trusted them so soon after his Resurrection as we find they did If then the Apostles had good reason to believe the Resurrection of Christ to be true so have we to rest assured that this Doctrine of Transubstantiation is most false Yea let me add if we are sure that these words This is my body are in the Gospel then so sure we may be that they cannot be taken in that gross sense which Papists put upon them for as we know them to be there because there we see them and
their not discerning the Lords body vers 29. And to receive these Holy Elements without reverence thankfulness and true devotion was to be guilty of dishonouring the Body and Blood of Christ which were here represented and exhibited to Believers But all this while we have no reason hence to fancy that the natural substance of Christ's Body and Blood are present in the Sacrament Had the Apostle thought of any such thing surely he would have exprest himself in another manner and have said somewhat to explain so Mysterious a Doctrine And had he and his Brethren taught the same as the Church of Rome now does surely the unbelieving Iews or Gentiles would have poured forth their Objections against it whereas we hear not a word of that nature neither in the Apostles Days or the next Ages after In all the Apologies that the first Christian Writers set forth in defence of our Religion we find nothing said in vindication of any such Opinion as this whilst they give large Answers to many other Objections for which there was nothing like so good a pretence Nor do we read of any controversy amongst Christians themselves about this matter for many Ages whereas in latter times since this Opinion was first broached there have been many Volumes written for and against it L. But they pretend that this was the Ancient Opinion of the Fathers and first Christians T. Pretend it they do but as in other points of Controversy betwixt them and us so here it is a very vain and false pretence For we read nothing of it in the old Creeds or the Canons of General Councils or in the genuine works of any Father for many hundred years after our Saviour L. Yet they alledge that the Fathers commonly stile the Holy Elements the Body and Blood of Christ and will frequently quote places to that purpose T. No doubt but they may easily do that though without any advantage to their Cause since its plain enough in what sense those expressions are to be understood from other places of the same Fathers For they themselves do sometimes tell us that Christ's Words of eating his Flesh and drinking his Blood are to be taken Spiritually that in the Communion there is a commemoration of his Death and a representation of his Body and Blood yea sometimes they expresly call the Bread and Wine the Figures thereof Now these and such like sayings cannot possibly be reconciled with the Popish opinion of Transubstantiation Therefore when they speak of Christ's Body and Blood in the Sacrament we may most reasonably understand them in the very same sense that I have told you our Church frequently uses the like expressions So do our Writers very commonly in their Books of devotion and in practical discourses on the Communion speak at the same rate whilst they intend nothing more but that these Holy Elements are made Christ's Body and Blood Mystically and Spiritually But how far this opinion of Transubstantiation is from being an Ancient Doctrine of the Christian Church hath been made sufficiently evident amongst many others by the Learned Bishop Cozens who in his History of it gives us an account about what time it was first publickly taught what opposition was then made to it by sundry Learned men of that Age and how long it was before it could be established by any Council even amongst Papists themselves or could obtain to be the general avowed Doctrine of their Church Nay to this very day their chief Writers are strangely divided in the accounts they give of it setting their Wits upon the rack to explain and defend it some this way and some that having so very little help from Holy Scripture in the Case as some of them are so ingenuous as to acknowledg L. Methinks its strange that they should with so much eagerness maintain and with so much violence impose a Doctrine which to me seems impossible to be understood or firmly believed T. Strange it is and very unreasonable but yet some account may be given of it for beside that natural pride which inclines men to defend the opinion which they have once espoused especially a Church which boasts of Infallibility besides this I say we may consider how mightily the admitting of this opinion makes for the Honour of the Priest who can thus with four words speaking work one of the most wonderful Miracles that ever was known in the World indeed such a one as can neither be seen felt nor understood But the people who can be perswaded to believe it must needs have a mighty veneration for the Priest that works it and be almost ready to make a god of him who can so easily make a god for them by turning the Bread into the very person of our Saviour his Divinity and Humanity whom therefore they worship and adore as God though after that they eat him L. This may seem indeed to make for the Honour of the Priest that he can work such wonders but surely it makes little for the honour either of Priest or people to be guilty of such false and absurd opinions and of such corrupt practices which are the natural consequence of them For are they not guilty of Idolatry in Worshipping the Bread as God though I know they say there is no Bread there after Consecration pray let me know your judgement because I find my Author endeavouring to vindicate their Church from this heavy censure T. I do not see how they can possibly excuse themselves from this charge if the Bread still remains Bread in its natural substance as we may most certainly conclude it does from what hath been alledged both from Scripture Reason and our Senses Wherefore whilst they worship that for God which is not God giving to the creature what is due alone to the Creator they may justly be reckoned guilty of Idolatry L. But will it not serve to excuse them that they worship that which they take to be God and therefore do design and direct their Worship to God and not to the Bread which they believe not to be there after Consecration though they see it before them T. What allowances it may please our good God to make for the ignorance and mistakes of honest well-meaning men I still say it doth not beseem us to determine But as to the thing it self for my own part I cannot see how this pretence will any more excuse a Papist from Idolatry than it would excuse an Heathen for his Worship of the Sun that he did verily believe the Sun to be God or that God did in some extraordinary manner dwell in the Sun the substance of it being turned into God whilst only the accidents of Light and Heat and the like do still remain Nay one would think the Heathen in some respect more excusable of the two since the Sun looks much liker a God than does a Wafer or bit of Bread But ' there is no great need of disputing against them in this
Case since several Writers of their own Church do freely grant that if this Doctrine of Transubstantiation be not true then they may justly be charged with as gross Idolatry as ever was practised in the World And most certainly this Doctrine is not true if any regard may be had to God's Holy Word to clear Reason to our own Senses or to the most Ancient Christian Writers and what they would have more I cannot tell L. I am perfectly satisfied with your Discourse on this point and shall therefore proceed to some other particular T. It 's high time you should and I shall take care to be briefer in the rest only I was willing to insist the longer on this because they reckon it so weighty and important a Doctrine of their Church for the denial of which they look upon us as damnable Hereticks and when they have had power in their hands have treated us accordingly even with all that bloody rage and cruelty which the Idolatrous Heathens of old used toward the Primitive Christians Hereby also you may be convinced how utterly unlawful it is to hold Communion with the Church of Rome which is guilty of Idolatry in this her worship of the Host and imposes the same upon all that joyn with her and therefore what great Reason there was for the Reformation at the first and for our refusal to this day to pollute our Souls by a compliance with such abominations which for ought I can see is as utterly unlawful even though a Man lived in the Dominions of a Popish Prince as it was for the three Children to fall down and worship the Golden Image at Nebuchadnezzar's command And as chearfully might any good Christian venture upon the fiercest flames in this Cause as they did in theirs resting assured if not of a deliverance yet of the Crown and Glory of Martyrs which is a Thousand times better And to conclude when by this instance you are so plainly convinced what a gross and palpable errour is expresly taught and stifly maintained by the Roman Church and as a judgment upon them they seem fallen into it for a discovery of their falshood you may thence easily inferr what opinion is to be had of the Infallibility of that Church and so will be better prepared for the receiving a discovery of any other of their Errors as it shall happen to be made to you To which purpose let us now proceed CHAP. VIII Concerning the Sacrifice of the Mass. L. THE next point mentioned in my Author is that of the Mass which he says little about but that it is the unbloody Sacrifice which Christ offered at his last Supper and which he commanded his Apostles to offer for the commemoration of his death T. This belongs to what we have just now been so largely discoursing of Only you are to take notice that the common Doctrine among them is that at the Mass as they call it or at the Sacrament of the Lords Supper there is a true Sacrifice offered which is propitiatory both for the quick and the dead viz. such as are in Purgatory that is tends to procure the pardon of their Sins and freedom from punishment And this they call an unbloody Sacrifice to distinguish it from that which our Blessed Saviour offered on the Cross when he sned his Blood for us Though how it can be unbloody whilst the natural Substance of Blood is there according to their principles is not easie to understand nor how that can be fitly called a commemoration of his death which they say is a Sacrifice of Christ who is there corporally present But in the mean time this notion of a Sacrifice if taken strictly and properly is a meer fiction not having the least countenance from Holy Scripture where we read only that Christ offered up himself a Sacrifice for us on the Cross but not a word of his doing it the night before when he instituted the Holy Communion nor of his being dayly offered up by the Priest to make atonement for sins Nay we expresly read Heb. 9. 26 27 28. that he only once offered up himself and is now gone to appear in the presence of God for us but there 's nothing said of his being offered up to God by others We do indeed freely grant that in this Holy Sacrament we make a solemn commemoration of that Sacrifice which Christ offered up and so may be said to represent to the Father what his Son hath suffered on our behalf that he may graciously incline to bestow on us those Blessings which were so dearly purchased for us And we do in some sort Feast upon this Sacrifice by our eating and drinking of these holy Elements Here also we do make a Sacrifice or an Oblation of our selves both Souls and Bodies unto God as is exprest in our Liturgy in the Prayer after Receiving and here lastly we do offer up our Thanksgivings and Praises as also our Silver and Gold in Charity and Almsgivings which are the Christian Sacrifices still to be used under the Gospel and with which we read God is well pleased Heb. 13. 16. And in some of these senses are we to understand the Ancients when they speak of a Sacrifice or Oblation made to God at the Holy Table Especially if we consider that the Custom amongst them was as Learned Men inform us for the richer sort to bring good store of provision to this Table which they presented as their Oblation or Christian Sacrifice And out of these was taken the Bread and Wine which were Consecrated and made use of in the Holy Communion and the rest was either spent in their Love-feasts or went to the Poor and to the Clergy L. As there seems little reason to stile the Lords-Supper a Sacrifice save in the sense you have explained it so there seems yet less why they should call it a Sacrifice for the dead as well as the living T. Indeed there is no Reason at all for it nor so much as any colour from Scripture But this depends upon their dream of Purgatory of which we have already spoken an Opinion I told you very gainful to the Church on many accounts and particularly this custom of having Masses for the dead though it yields no profit to the dead themselves yet it brings in much to the living I mean to the Priests who receive great store of Money for these their Masses which is sometimes left by the deceased person himself and sometimes given by his Friends on his behalf this being generally looked upon in their Church as a work of extraordinary Charity and you may be sure warmly enough urged by the Priests and earnestly pleaded for from the very same principle that made the Silver smiths so zealous for Diana even because their Trade and Gain depended upon her honour Act. 19. 27. But whatever there may be of seeming Charity to a dead Friend or of real profit to the living Priest in this device most
certainly it hath an apparent tendency to the ruine of precious Souls and is a mighty prejudice to Piety and Holiness of Life as hath formerly been cited For if men can once perswade themselves that after death there may be satisfaction made for the neglects and miscarriages of their Life what wonder if they are now careless and licentious And instead of working out their own salvation themselves with fear and trembling they will be apt to leave the trouble of that work to their Executors and to the Priests by their Masses and Prayers to do it for them But woe be to those miserable Souls who build their hopes on such ruinous foundations and woe be to those Teachers who betray them to ruine by such delusions thereby serving their own bellies rather than the Lord Iesus and the interest of Religion But let us be wise now in this our day to consider the things that belong to our peace before they be hid from our eyes Now by a speedy Repentance and thorow Reformation let us see to make our peace with God through Jesus Christ in this day of Grace and Patience but if we neglect this present season there remains hereafter no more Sacrifice for Sin but a certain fearful looking for of Divine vengeance which will be the portion of all wilfull neglecters and contemners of Grace and Mercy But let us go on with your Author CHAP. IX Of having Prayers in an unknown Tongue L. HE next goes about to vindicate their use of the Latine Tongue in the Mass and the rest of their Service T. And pray what can he alledge in vindication of their using this Language when the people understand it not L. Why first he says that the Priestly Garments and the ceremonies they use may serve to instruct them for he had before said how useful their ceremonies are for the exciting of devotion and then for further instruction they must go to Catechisms and Sermons T. They had need to be very ingenious people who can learn from Priests garments and dumb ceremonies what 's the meaning of Latin Prayers Nay their multitude of ceremonies are so far from instructing the ignorant people that rather they need much instruction to know the meaning of them And instead of exciting devotion they rather extinguish and suppress it by amusing their minds and pleasing their senses with a great deal of pomp and pageantry Whatever instructions their Priests may give at Catechisms and Sermons they are not like to make them understand prayers uttered in a strange language L. He further adds that simple ignorant people may easily be mistaken if these high mysteries were done in the vulgar tongue T. A wise method truly to keep people in ignorance for fear they should run into mistakes as if a man should blindfold a Travailer to prevent his missing the way But one would think they should here rather employ themselves in the Catechisms and Sermons they talk of to give the people due instruction for the preventing those mistakes they seem so much afraid of Though by the course they take with them in this and other instances it 's plain enough they are more afraid of the peoples getting too much knowledg And no wonder whilst its a common saying amongst them that Ignorance is the mother of Devotion and so truly it is of the devotion or rather the superstition of the Romish Church whereas the most clear and solid knowledg of the will and word of God is the mother of true Christian piety and devotion But has your Author no better reasons than these for this absurd practice L. Other reasons he has whether better or not do you judg He says it makes for the union of the Latin Church that Priests travailing into other Countries may say Mass where ever they come T. Very sollicitous they appear for the union of the Latin Church that is of their own party and in the mean time care little what divisions they make in the Christian Church for their own carnal ends But of mighty consequence is this project for union which your Author mentions For what need is there I beseech you that a Priest in a foreign Countrey should officiate there where they may have Priests of their own to do it And can there not be union enough betwixt foreign Churches and the Priests that belong to them in their profession of the same faith and owning the same worship except they speak the same language and use the very same words One would think they should rather consult for an union betwixt Priest and people that they might joyn together at the same time in the same prayers but this they regard not It 's enough it seems with them for the people to be spectators only even at publick prayers as well as at the Communion though they neither understand the one nor partake of the other For very usual it is with them for the Priests alone to take the Sacrament whilst the people stand by and look on a most corrupt custom and meer innovation contrary to the first institution and design of this holy Ordinance and to the practice of all antiquity And as that cannot properly be called a Communion where Priests and people do not communicate together so neither are those to be stiled common prayers in which they do not joyn in common Nor has your Author hitherto produced any thing like a reason for this custom of theirs L. And I doubt you 'l think his last argument as weak as any viz. that the holy Scriptures have been written in Latin Greek and Hebrew these three languages being written upon Christs Cross they are therefore called Sacred and it s permitted to these three Nations to use them at Mass. T. I confess I am utterly to seek for the force of this argument if it be fit to call it so whilst it argues just nothing to the purpose The holy Scriptures were written originally in Hebrew and Greek and have been translated not only into Latin but several other Languages for the benefit of those of several Nations who were converted to Christianity of which more hereafter and accordingly they had their worship also celebrated in the same languages which the people understood as our ancestors in this Kingdom had And this surely every mans own reason may tell him is most profitable and necessary in order to true devotion that they may understandingly and affectionately joyn with the Priest in the publick worship and service This you will find expresly delivered by the Apostle Paul himself in 1 Cor. 14. 16 c. where he disapproves the use of strange Tongues in the Church as not tending to edification for that he who understood them not could not say Amen to the Prayers or Praises uttered in those unknown Tongues As to those three Languages he mentions being written upon the Cross and therefore allow'd to be used in publick worship it is such an idle and insignificant fancy that
I am ashamed to take notice of it If he had infer'd the quite contrary that therefore they must not be used the reason had been every whit as good that is stark naught But what will not men devise when they are put to their shifts L. I wonder what makes them so stiff in a practice so contrary to Reason Scripture and the usage of the Primitive Church T. It is not very easie to give the reason since some amongst themselves seem ashamed of it and many of their Bishops in the Council of Trent desired to have publick Prayers in a known Tongue but it would not be granted The reason of which as of many other corruptions being still continued seems to be partly from their fear that if they should make one alteration a great many more would follow for if they own themselves to have erred in one thing why not in more and partly to encrease the peoples admiration of the Priest and his Prayers for the less they understand the more prone they are to admire And lastly perhaps there may be this peculiar reason for it that hereby the people may more easily be perswaded of the efficacy of the Priests words for the working that prodigious miracle of Transubstantiation For if they should hear him speak only plain words in their own mother-tongue they could hardly think them of force enough to work such a mighty change whereas in hard words there may be some hidden virtue which they are not aware of But let us go on to what follows CHAP. X. Concerning Confession of sins to the Priest in order to his forgiveness of them L. MY Author next pleads for the custom of confessing sins to the Priest on account of that power which Christ hath given him to absolve and forgive sins Joh. 20. 23. T. As to this matter of Confession of sins in order to absolution in brief I would have you consider that anciently when Church discipline was strictly observed they who had been guilty of notorious scandalous crimes were obliged to make satisfaction to the Church by a publick penitent confession of them and when they had given sufficient evidence of their repentance by submitting to such penance as was imposed on them they were then publickly absolved and received into the communion of the Church from which they were before cast out And whilst the Bishop or Priest did herein proceed according to the rules of the Gospel then what they remitted on earth would be remitted in heaven c. according to Ioh. 20. 23. But by degrees through the corruption of the times and the general loosness of mens manners this publick confession was in a great measure laid aside and instead of it only a private confession to the Priest required and absolution commonly granted upon very easie terms and this is that which is now so zealously pleaded for by those of the Romish Church As to the former our Church highly approves of it as a godly discipline and sometimes it is at this day practised amongst us But as to private confessions there is no absolute necessity of them at all times For when our sins have been private such as have given no offence to the Church or our Neighbours but only to Almighty God here it may suffice that we humbly confess them to God himself speedily forsaking the same and then shall we be sure to find mercy through our Blessed Saviour for so God hath promised in his holy word without requiring us to confess them to men also L. But they commonly urge that of St. Jim 5. 16. Confess your fauâ—â—s one to another c. T. This is indeed very requisite when men have given offence one to another but here is no mention of a Priest to whom this confession ought to be made Or suppose that he is here chiefly intended yet is this confession no further needful than as may give evidence of a sincere repentace and may serve to procure the Priests prayers and directions or sometimes absolution But to this end it 's no way necessary for a man at all times to confess all his private faults L. Yes says my Author we must confess our sins to the Priest that he may judg of them and thereupon absolve the penitent For as Treasons says he committed against the Prince are tried by his Officers so men are to present themselves to the Priest as to a Tribunal that upon confession they may receive forgiveness which the Priest grants as Christs Lieutenant or Deputy T. There is no likeness in the case Princes are but finite creatures and cannot attend to the trial of all causes in their own persons and therefore they employ their Officers who are to hear them and to determine according to Law But Almighty God is himself present every where and always ready to receive the humble confessions of a penitent sinner and upon his sincere repentance will for Christs sake receive him to favour whilst neither Priest nor any mortal man whatsoever may be privy either to his faults or to his confession of them And yet to keep to his similitude as men are not bound to present themselves before the Kings Officers for a trial but when the King by his Law requires it no more are people bound to make confession to the Priest further than God by his word enjoyns it but he has no where enjoyn'd the confession of all our private faults And as the Kings Judges are to pronounce sentence according to Law so must the Priest according to the rules of the Gospel otherwise it is unjust and of no sorce This then I grant that so far as God hath appointed Ministers as his Officers to take notice of the crimes of the people and to pass sentence upon them so far the people are bound to apply themselves to their Ministers to follow their directions and submit to their sentence which if it be just God himself will confirm it Thus when any man is guilty of notorious crimes and by no admonitions will be reclaim'd then may the Minister justly proceed to Excommunicate such an obstinate offender from the society and priviledges of the Christian Church and what he binds on earth shall be bound in heaven that is God approves of this sentence and will ratifie and confirm it so that if this man continue thus impenitent in his wickedness God will shut him out from the Kingdom of Heaven hereafter whom his Ministers have justly cast out of the Church here But if this scandalous sinner shall come in and acknowledg his offences and seriously profess his repentance and give sufficient evidence of the truth of it then hath the Minister whether Bishop or Priest power to absolve him to release him from the censures of the Church and receive him again into communion and may also upon the truth of this his repentance assure him of and declare to him the remission of his sins from God himself who hath given to his Ministers
power to that purpose And this their sentence shall also be ratified in Heaven God through his Son Jesus will be reconciled to this sincere penitent and if he persevere in well-doing will at length receive him into glory who is now admitted into his Church L. All this seems plain and reasonable but by your discourse I perceive you judg there is no necessity of confessing private sins in order to their being forgiven T. There is no need of it since I say God no where requires it but hath promised pardon on condition of true repentance which repentance may be very sincere without any such confession L. But is it not very profitable for people to unburden their consciences to the Minister that they may receive direction and comfort from him T. Exceeding profitable no doubt it is and sometimes very needful especially when they are disturbed with doubts and fears or assaulted by strong temptations of one sort or other In such cases we do earnestly exhort them to apply themselves to the Minister as to their Spiritual Physician with whom they ought freely to consult and to lay open their case to him so far as is necessary in order to their ease and cure For by this means he is better able to give them particular directions for the overcoming of those temptations and corruptions which they are most afflicted with He may also upon the hearing of their case give them his judgment concerning the state of their souls which may be of great use to such whose weakness or melancholy may cause them to think much worse of themselves than they deserve Moreover upon their serious credible profession of repentance the Minister according to the power he has received from God may as I have said declare and pronounce to them the absolution and remission of their sins which may yield much ease to the penitent considering the authority as well as the judgment and faithfulness of the Minister For which reason in the Exhortation before the Communion there is advice given to such as cannot by their own private endeavours quiet their consciences that they would come to their Ministers for assistance But for those who can well do it we lay no necessity upon them to make such application much less do we oblige them to make a particular confession of their faults since God by his Gospel as a kind of instrument pardons the truly penitent though this pardon be not always pronounced by the Priest to that particular person who seeks for the same L. Some argue confession to the Priest to be a duty from the peoples confessing their sins to St. John Baptist when they came to be baptized of him T. This is very little to the purpose since it was rather a publick than private confession which the people then made and that in order to their receiving of Baptism from St. Iohn whereby they were in a solemn manner devoted to newness of life and therefore very requisite it was that they should now acknowledg and renounce their former evil courses as we would expect the same from a Turk or Iew before we admit him to Christian Baptism But doth it thence follow that all Christian people must confess all the faults they can remember to the Priest that he may absolve them from the same before they come to the Communion L. Not in the least so far as I can judg St. Paul only says Let a man examine himself and so let him eat c. not enjoyning him to go to confession to a Priest also But before we leave this pray will you satisfie me a little further about the Priests absolving of men or forgiving their sins which I hear Papists talk much of and commonly they make use of the Text before mention'd Joh. 20. 23. and seem to boast of this as a priviledg peculiar to their Priests T. Very forward they are to boast of priviledges for which they have no warrant But as to the present case that which is granted to the Ministers of Christ whether from that or any the like Text seems plainly to be this That whilst in their publick preaching or in Church-censures or other private application to particular persons they proceed according to the rules of the Gospel their sentence shall be ratified and made good in heaven as I have before in part explained to you and shall not grudge to do it again When the Ministers of the Gospel in publishing of it do denounce and threaten eternal misery to Infidels and impenitent sinners and do promise pardon and salvation to penitent believers this their sentence shall be confirmed in heaven by Christ himself for according to this rule will he proceed at the last day Or when in the exercise of Discipline they cast out the stubborn offender whilst he remains such he is also out of the Divine favour but as upon his profession of repentance the Minister absolves him and receives him into the bosom of the Church so if he be sincere in this profession God becomes reconciled to him and receives him again into favour Thus also when any man that is burdened in conscience though he lye not under the censures of the Church shall apply himself to the Minister and open his case to him acquainting him so far as is needful with those particular crimes that lye most heavy upon him and doth profess himself sincerely penitent for the same the Minister then may on condition of his sincerity in the name of God pronounce to him the pardon and forgiveness of them So that the Ministers power of binding and loosing consists chiefly in this that he with authority as a Minister of Christ declares and pronounces pardon to some and threatens wrath to others as the Gospel directs and warrants him and accordingly some he shuts out of the Church some he receives into it either by Baptism or by absolution from Church-censures and whilst Ministers keep to their rule in these cases what they bind or loose on earth shall be bound or loosed in heaven And thus they can only forgive sins by pronouncing forgiveness from God on condition of mens true repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus which condition is commonly exprest and always understood in their granting absolution to the penitent This much is own'd and daily practised in our Church but to more than this we pretend not If Popish Priests claim more let them make good their claim as they are able by Gods holy word they cannot do it nor by any solid and good reason Nay some of their own Writers seem to challenge no more than what I have allow'd for they say that the Priests under the Gospel pardon sin as those under the Law cleansed men from Leprosie and how was that but by pronouncing him to be clean who upon trial was found so according to the rules in that case laid down in the Laws But if the Priest mistook in his judgment this would not make the Leper
yea as an affront for any man to employ some Courtier for that purpose And in our Case it 's very unreasonable since we are fully assured that our Blessed Saviour knows our wants and desires and is both able and willing to assist us but as I have said we have no such assurance that this or that Saint hath any knowledge of us and our affairs or can afford us help and relief L. I see no manner of reason why we should make use of any other Mediators beside the Lord Iesus who alone is able to save to the uttermost all that come to God by him T. But beside all this however they pretend that they only pray to Saints to pray to God for them it is most evident that they do make some such Addresses to Saints especially to the Blessed Virgin as do import much more even such as are proper only to be used to Almighty God himself For instance they devote themselves to her Service and Honour resign themselves to her will and pleasure commend themselves and their affairs to her protection and guidance make Vows to her in their distress offer thanks and praise to her for their deliverance beg her assistance in all difficulties and dangers particularly at their last hour All this with much more to the same purpose frequently used in their devotions to her speaks somewhat more surely than to desire her barely to intercede for them Yea those expressions which may be thus interpreted are yet delivered in such a manner without any mention of her interceding that whatever notion the more knowing and learned may have yet most likely it is that common people take the words as they sound and seek assistance from her as they do from Almighty God and our Saviour And no wonder when their supplications are made to her as to the Queen of Heaven their Lady and Governess one who hath a mighty power in Heaven and Earth and is the very mother of Mercy and Pity What does all this serve for but to make her a kind of Goddess one invested with Divine Power and Glory This is done especially in that they call our Ladies Psalter wherein is applied to her all or most of that which is ascribed to God himself in the Book of Psalms Nay as is yet to be seen in some of their old Missals they give her still the power of a Mother over her Son in Heaven and desire her to command him to do this and that by virtue of that her power which one of their Writers excuses as a kind of Religious dalliance but others more modest and ingenuous have found fault with these things and acknowledge they ought to be reformed yea they have plainly exprest their fears that the common people amongst them do worship Saints and Angels in much-what the same manner as the Heathens of old did their Daemons and Heroes and inferiour Deities having particular Saints for particular cases and turns as the Heathens had their several Deities for several places and purposes Nor is it any wonder if the poor people give that worship to these which is due to God alone when their Learned men make such nice distinctions betwixt them as are not easie to be understood or remembred whilst they talk of Worship superiour and inferiour relative subordinate and the like To God they grant belongs the highest fort of Worship which they call Latria then to Angels and Saints they allow a lower kind which they call Dulia and to the Blessed Virgin Mary somewhat betwixt both which they call Hyper-dulia which they say is but little below what is to be given to God himself Now what subtil Doctor of them all can fix the just bounds and terms betwixt these Or if he could yet how easie is it for the people to mistake and transgress those bounds giving perhaps to a common Saint what is due to the Blessed Virgin and to her what belongs to God alone At best then the people are in great danger of Idolatry and utterly inexcusable are their Leaders who betray them into this danger L. And yet my Author very severely inveighs against us Protestants as having no good and sound belief because we pay not due honour and reverence to the Saints especially for that we will not pray to the Virgin-Mother whose authority he says doubtless must needs be very great T. But in the mean time what good authority has he for that which he asserts with so much confidence The Holy Scripture is utterly silent in this matter and so are the most Ancient Writers in the Christian Church They speak not one word of her Authority in Heaven nor of any Worship to be given her by those on Earth Nay when this Superstition began first to creep in amongst some silly Women one of those Writers about Four hundred years after our Saviour declaims against it and utterly disallows it Judge therefore what a wise and charitable censure this is that we Protestants have no good belief because forsooth we do not pray to the Blessed Virgin What! is our Belief not good because it is not strong enough to give credit to all the idle ridiculous stories which their fabulous Legends tell of her or any other Saint This it 's confest we cannot do but yet we readily believe all that the Holy Scriptures or any good and credible Authors relate And what a malicious slander is it that we give her no Honour Since though we do not worship her as a Goddess or the Queen of Heaven and the Mother of Mercy yet we give her all that honour which either God's Word requires or the Ancient Christians gave According to her own prediction and the Language of the Angel we do most justly stile her Blessed among Women Her name is precious and honourable and her memory sacred amongst us We bless God for the Graces he bestowed on her and most gratefully commemorate his Mercy to her in advancing her to that singular honour of being the Virgin-Mother of the ever-blessed Jesus the Son of God and Saviour of Mankind Yet all this while according to her own example Our souls do magnify the Lord and our spirit rejoyceth in God our Saviour And to do otherwise to give Divine Honour to any creature were to correct the Magnificat as we use to speak yea directly to contradict it Nay may I not add that such worshippers do offer the highest affront and dishonour to the Blessed Virgin whilst they imagine she can be well pleased with their Adorations and Prayers and with such fulsom flatteries and praises as their Devotions to her are commonly stuffed with As if now in Heaven she had lost all that humility which when on Earth made her so esteemed of God and Men. Certainly if we can guess any thing of the temper of Saints in Glory by what they were here in the World such Worship and Invocation must needs be very displeasing to them if they have any knowledge of
what 's done here below What haste did St. Peter make to rectify Cornelius's mistake when he fell down at his feet He presently bade him stand up telling him that he himself was a Man So St. Paul and St. Barnabas when the people took them for gods and would have worshipped them accordingly they rent their Clothes for indignation and utterly forbad them calling out to them to worship the true and living God as the Angel also did to St. Iohn saying to him I am thy fellow servant worship God Rev. 22. 8 9. And doubtless they are still as zealously concerned for the honour of God as ever they were and can take no pleasure in having his Prerogative any way encroacht upon for their sakes Nor therefore can they be displeased with us for not offering up our prayers or praises to them out of a just and pious fear of robbing God and Christ of their due by giving their Glory to another Displeased I say they cannot be whilst we do herein follow their directions and imitate their example in worshipping God alone through Christ the Mediator For this was their practice when on Earth and this is still their employment in Heaven and this we find required in almost a Thousand places in those Holy Books which the Spirit of God enabled them to write for the guidance of his Church in all following Ages There we find our Blessed Saviour himself teaching us to pray to Our Father which is in Heaven but not a syllable of making any Prayers to his Mother And would he omit any thing that was needful So the Apostles direct us to pray to God continually and in every thing to give him thanks doing all in the name of Jesus Christ but not one word said of praying to Angel or Saint upon any account whatever Nor do they that I remember in all their Writings make the least mention of the Blessed Virgin Mary after our Saviours Ascension except in the first of the Acts where it 's only said that she was together with the rest of the Disciples Not one short prayer do we find any where put up to her no injunction given to any Christian Church in the Epistles sent to them concerning their worship and adoration of her no nor in any Christian Writer for some ages after Whereas we now find the Popish Books of devotion full of such nauseous stuff Yet these are the men who cry up Antiquity and pretend to keep so close to Apostolical tradition and tell us that their Church holds nothing but what this age took from the last and that from the other before it till at length you come to the Apostles themselves but the present instance with many others of like nature sufficiently shews the vanity and falshood of this pretence L. To my apprehension it plainly does and I am apt to think another instance to that purpose may be given in what my Author next mentions viz. concerning Images c. CHAP. XII Of the Worship of Images T. PRAY what says he concerning Images L. He says that the Images and Reliques of Saints are honourable in regard of the Saints to whom they have relation and in regard of God himself since he makes use of them for instruments of his miracles And he brings in his Scholar telling how it vext him to the heart to hear any speak ill of the Images of Christ crucified T. Much rather may it grieve the heart of any good Christian to consider how by the abuse of these Images the great God and our Blessed Saviour are highly dishonoured Though your Author is so cunning as to say nothing of any pictures of God yet such there are among them and of the Sacred Trinity and this vindicated by some of their ablest Writers though most directly contrary to Gods express command by Moses and the Prophets as we find Deut. 4. 15 16. Isa. 40. 18. The reason of which commands does still remain as forcible as ever and will do so to the end of the world Since it then was and ever will be an infinite disparagement and lessening to the glory of Gods incomprehensible Majesty to go about to make any picture or resemblance of him insomuch that some of the wiser Heathens have declared against it As to the Images he mentions viz. of Saints together with their Reliques it 's a fine smooth word he uses when he says they are honourable if by this he meant no more than such an honour or respect as we use in civility to give to the picture of a friend or to somewhat he has left us in remembrance we should comply with him supposing these to be truly the Pictures and Reliques of those Saints whose names they bear yea whether true or false we should not much dispute it But it 's plain by the arguments they use and by the practice of their Church that it is a Religious and not meerly a civil honour which they plead for and give to Images even such an honour as God himself in his Holy Word hath expresly forbid L. It seems so indeed for though he makes use of the comparison which you have now mention'd yet his other arguments do aim at much more For he urges the example of Moses putting off his shoos when God appear'd to him because the ground was holy Exod. 3. And he quotes the words of the Psalmist as he renders them That they should worship the Ark which is called Gods footstool Psal. 99. 5. T. This plainly shews what that honour is which they would have done to Images and it shews also that their cause is very weak and bad which has no better arguments to support it What because Moses at Gods command put off his shoos in that place which was made holy for the time by Gods glorious appearance there must we therefore against Gods express command bow down to Images in which there is no holiness nor any evidence of the Divine presence Or are they of the old Heathenish opinion that by consecration of an Image there is some Divine virtue convey'd to it that the Deity takes up his residence there and does thence bestow favours upon his worshippers This one would think by their practice as I shall after shew As to the Psalmists words they command us not to worship the Ark as he falsly reads it but at or before the Ark Exalt the Lord our God and worship at his footstool that is worship God at or before the Ark where in a more peculiar manner he manifested himself And dare they ascribe this to their Images So v. 9. of that Psalm Worship at his holy hill and so are these places rendred by some Commentators of their own Church You see then what they plead for viz. a worship of the Images themselves with Religious worship for this it is that the arguments they make use of tend to if they are of any force But the practice of their Church is the best interpreter of their
judgment and shews what they mean by that due honour which according to the Council of Trent is to be given to Images Now their common custom is according to the account generally given and which I find not any of themselves to deny their custom I say is with great solemnity to consecrate their Images to set them up in their Churches to deck and adorn them with all manner of pomp and bravery they set up Wax lights and burn Incense before them yea with all outward appearance of devotion they bow to them kneel down before them and fasten their eyes upon them when they offer up their prayers Sometimes they carry them about in publick Processions and many take pains to go long Pilgrimages to them some to this Saint some to that and more especially to the Images of the Blessed Virgin in divers places as to the Lady of Loretto in Italy and here of old in England to the Lady of Walsingham and the Lady of Wisden that is to her Image set up in such and such places Hither they came oft for Cures and for help in their distresses and here they presented their offerings Which seems plainly to shew that at least the common people were of opinion that some Divine power resided in these Images and a greater measure of it in some than in others whilst some were much more frequented than others and ten times more stories told of wondrous miracles wrought by them in one place than another L. My Author talks of Gods using them as instruments for the working of miracles T. Whatever he or others may talk I do not in the least question but that the stories they tell of that nature are meer forgeries or else the delusions of evil spirits who cannot but take great delight in Image-worship and may be justly permitted by lying wonders to abuse and harden those that are given up to such impiety according to 2 Thes. 2. 9 10 c. Or lastly they are often the cheats of cunning covetous Priests who easily impose upon a superstitious credulous people Many impostures of this nature have been discovered yea and bewail'd by the more wise and honest among themselves Thus they sometimes make their Images sweat and bleed and squeak and weep with many other tricks of Legerdemain which one or other commonly finds out and so spoils all their game So some travellers have observed that there is seldom a Priest so cunning at these devices but there is a Iew or some such disaffected person who is as cunning to discover and lay open the cheat to the infinite scandal of our profession hardning those that are already Infidels and inclining others to become so whilst these notorious impostures make them ready to call in question the real miracles wrought by our Blessed Saviour and his followers L. This is indeed a great dishonour to our Religion but they commonly urge the miracles done of old as an argument for the truth of those now pretended to be done amongst them especially they tell of miracles wrought at the Tombs of Saints and Martyrs in former times and the same they say are still done by their Reliques which they have in keeping T. This we shall be drawn to believe when we can see them done above-board in the open day where it shall be free for all people to behold and examine the same but till then I say we shall look upon their fine stories as meer cheats or forgeries And among all the pious or rather impious frauds used in their Church there are scarce any more gross or more common than in the matter of Reliques For instance at this day they pretend to shew some of the wood of the Cross on which our Saviour suffered which some of their famous Authors define ought to be worshipped with the highest sort of Divine worship because it touch'd Christs body And such quantities of this wood they have heretofore pretended to show in several places that were they all put together it 's thought they would make a burden to speak modestly by much too heavy for any one man to bear They are also said to retain some of the Blessed Virgins milk though by what art it 's preserved you must not enquire Yea some of the tail of the Ass on which our Saviour rode to Ierusalem with a world more of such ridiculous fopperies that he must be even as stupid and dull as that very brute who can believe the same Several of their Churches lay claim to the body of the same Saint each endeavouring to render themselves more famous than others by pretending to more honourable Reliques and bragging of greater wonders wrought by them the better to draw on customers for the encrease of their gain Yet sometimes after all these pretences it hath been discovered that the bones of a Malefactor have been made use of instead of a Saint or Martyr L. But have there not been true miracles anciently wrought at the Martyrs Tombs T. No doubt but there have for in those days God might please to do it for the conviction of Pagans and for the confirmation of that faith which his holy Martyrs had sealed with their blood Yet even then neither these Saints nor their Reliques were to have Religious worship given them but God alone was to be praised and honoured for them When the dead man was raised by the touching of Elisha's bones 2 King 13. to the God of Elisha was the praise only due but neither the Prophet himself nor his bones were to be worshipped And should any Iew have done it he would have been look'd upon as guilty of Idolatry though he had continued to worship the true God and had pretended that this his worship of the Prophet or his Image or his Bones had been intended for the honour of God This would no doubt have been look'd on as ill as the peoples Idolizing the Brazen Image of the Serpent which Hezekiah therefore broke in pieces He did not think it for Gods honour to have such an evil practice allow'd for God is best honoured by ways of his own appointment not those of our devising contrary to his commands Obedience is better than sacrifice obedience to the true God is certainly better than sacrifice to an Idol or bowing down to an Image which is one sort of Idolatry L. But my Author thinks it a most unjust thing to charge them with Idolatry whilst they do not make Gods of their Saints or their Images but do own and worship the true God not setting up Idols in opposition to him T. I know they use a world of art in this matter and 1000 nice distinctions subtle evasions and smooth pretences they have at hand but after all if that worship of Images which is forbidden in the second Commandment be properly stiled Idolatry then in this respect doth their Church appear notoriously guilty of it L. But do they not use to say that the second Commandment forbids the
mans right and yet will not allow him the benefit of having the Will to plead on his own behalf And this is plainly the course of the Roman Church in the present case for the Rulers withhold the Scripture from the people that they may the more easily detain them in a blind obedience to those Doctrines and commands of their own which are contrary to it and which they will not have examined by it And you may well suspect the man has bad wares to put off who will expose them no where but in a dark shop It 's much to be feared that Guide means not well who would have my eyes put out or fast closed that I may follow him blindfold He that teaches falshood as well as he that does evil is afraid of the light that will discover his error But to conclude this whatever Papists may talk of the obscurity of Scripture the true reason why they keep it out of the peoples hands is because it is too plain I mean because it so plainly contradicts several Doctrines and practices that are now current in their Church So plainly does the second Commandment forbid all worship of Images that by their good will they would not have it come into the peoples sight And as plainly doth the holy Scripture in other places forbid the worship of Angels or Saints having Prayers in an unknown tongue the taking away the Cup from the Laity plainly it confutes their Doctrine of Transubstantiation whilst it calls the holy Elements bread after Consecration In these and several other instances doth Scripture so plainly make against them that no wonder if therefore they are so much against the Scripture as that they will not commonly permit the people to read it but keep back from them this key of knowledg L. This seems to be the true reason but so bad a one that they are ashamed to own it And now I return you unseigned thanks for the pains you have taken to confirm me in the truth and to shew me the vanity and weakness of those arguings wherewith they of the Church of Rome do endeavour to excuse and palliate their gross errors and to impose upon common people who are sometimes easily misled T. No great wonder if with their subtilties they impose upon such as cannot well distinguish betwixt specious pretences and solid reasonings And indeed they do in some measure deserve to be imposed upon who will so far trust to their own weak judgments as not to seek direction and assistance from those who are able to give it but do presently conclude that if they themselves cannot answer a cunning Priest no body esse can and thereupon without more ado become his easie proselytes especially when some worldly interest draws them to it which is an argument quickly discerned but not easily resisted Yet it 's strange to see how these same persons when they are gone off from our Church presently seem so humble and modest as to suspect their own judgments they commonly refuse to discourse with our Ministers pretending they are not fit to meddle with controversies nor hold disputes They now refer themselves wholly to the Church their own Sect the Romish Church that must be their Judge and their Guide They might before dispute and yield and be Judges for themselves when they left our Church but now forsooth they are got as the Priest tells them whose word they must take for it into an infallible Church whose Doctrines and commands must never be questioned or examined nor any thing heard that can be objected against them All must be swallow'd without chewing they must believe as the Church believes though what that is they do not well know This is the way that Romish Priests commonly take with them and a cunning way it is for securing of the Converts they have once made but so grosly partial that a man of ordinary discretion may readily discern it and no sincere lover of truth will be drawn to comply with it For how can any man answer it to God or his own conscience to depart from that Church wherein he has been baptized and educated without a fair hearing what can be said for it and when he is drawn away into another Church becomes so fixed and resolute that he 'l hear nothing that can be said against it But you I confess have acted at another rate and I cannot but commend your ingenuity and diligence herein which I pray God to succeed for your establishment in that holy Religion in which you have hitherto been instructed and from which I hope you 'l never be perverted For it is the very truth of God taught by his Son Jesus in his holy Gospel the only infallible rule of Faith and Manners L. I do stedfastly believe that it is so and by the grace of God will never depart from it T. Does your Author meddle with no other points of controversie betwixt us and the Church of Rome L. He mentions no more that I find looking upon these I suppose as most material but toward the end of this Chapter he heaps up many bitter invectives against our Ministers as if they spoke ill of the Romish Church out of meer malice against their consciences only to make Papists envied and hated and that they often cite the holy Scripture to no purpose or to an ill one and do also falsifie and cut off what is not to their liking yea and have put whole Books out of the number of Canonical Scriptures in fine that they do all as the toy takes them without thinking of any judgment or hell to come after T. This is very severe indeed but so grosly false and spiteful that it deserves no more notice or answer than the revilings of an angry scold Only to the last heavy charge of putting out whole Books of Holy Scripture I shall answer a few words and leave you to judge of the rest by what truth you shall find in this accusation Know then that as to the New Testament we receive for Canonical all the same Books which the Church of Rome it self does and all other Christian Churches in the world so far as ever I have heard And as to the Old Testament we receive all those Books which were acknowledged for Canonical by the Iewish Church who are very competent witnesses in this case or by the Christian Church for four hundred years after our Saviour as learned Writers of our Church have demonstrated and particularly Bishop Cozens before named in his History of the Canon of Scripture As to those Books which are called Apocryphal though we have them not in the same esteem with the Sacred Writings of the Old and New Testament yet we have a just value for them as the works of pious men and of great antiquity and our Church appoints Lessons out of them to be publickly read though not on the Lords days thereby recommending them to the people who have them in their
hands and may read them as much as they please And especially those two Books Ecclesiasticus and that of Wisdom are well worthy to be read again and again as containing most excellent moral rules for the direction and guidance of our lives Consider then what an impudent thing it is for Papists to accuse our Church for putting out these Books of Apocrypha which yet are in so much use amongst us whilst they themselves endeavour in some sort to make the whole Bible Apocryphal I mean by their hiding it so much from the common people putting away not only some but even all the Books of Holy Writ very much from their sight And some of their Authors do speak so meanly and contemptibly of these holy Books which do so little service to their cause that they seem not to have so much respect for them as we have for the Apocrypha it self So that they of all people have least reason to condemn others for slighting or rejecting the holy Scriptures and our Church hath as little reason to be condemned as any other in the whole world As to his other spiteful suggestions I leave it to your self or any other impartial person to judge whether I have said any thing against the Doctrine of their Church without giving good reason for it And I can assure you I have not in this whole Discourse said one word against my conscience neither would I have you envy or hate any mans person be he Papist or what he will whilst you abstain from their errors For though I do not believe the Popish fiction of Purgatory yet I do firmly believe there is a future Judgment and an Hell prepared for the wicked and ungodly particularly for lyers and slanderers and for such as hate their neighbours upon any pretence whatever And is this all that your Author has to say L. He adds nothing more in this Chapter but advice to those who are seduced as he calls it that they should beg light from God and weigh what he has said and seek more instruction from good and learned Catholicks meaning I suppose Popish Priests chiefly T. There 's little doubt of it Now to prevent your being seduced by those who call themselves Catholicks but are not truly so I shall wish you to follow his advice so far as it 's good Humbly beg of God to enlighten your mind with the knowledg of the truth and be ever careful to do the will of God so far as you know it that so you may be the better qualified for the assistance and direction of his good Spirit which delights in men of pure hearts and humble minds Moreover I advise you to weigh impartially what is said on both sides and then be true to your own judgment and conscience in following that which has the plainest and fullest evidence of its truth I would not have you out of pride and vanity thrust your self upon disputes but when you cannot well avoid the discourses of their Priests or Gentlemen if you happen to be at any time somewhat puzled with their arguments do not hastily conclude them to be unanswerable but consult with your Minister or such as may be best able to inform and satisfie you And you may do well to furnish your self with some of those Books that are written by our Divines in defence of the Church of England against the Papists But above all Books let me earnestly request you with great diligence to study and search the holy Scriptures for in them you shall find the true way to eternal life Read there our Blessed Saviours own most Heavenly Discourses who spake as never man spake and particularly read often his most admirable Sermon in the Mount where you have the summ of Christian Religion Read also the several Epistles of the Apostles with the rest of those Scared Writings as you have opportunity and then honestly and impartially compare the Doctrines of our Church and those of the Church of Rome which differ from ours with what is taught in these same holy Books and what you shall find to be most plainly agreeable thereto that own and embrace and evermore firmly adhere to L. The Council you give me is most fair and reasonable which hitherto I have endeavoured to follow and by Gods grace will continue so to do For I can truly say it my chief design is to please God and save my soul And I cannot imagin any surer way to attain this than by studying well the Word of God wherein he hath revealed his will and the way to eternal salvation And certainly God is so good and gracious that he will not fail to direct and guide those into the right way who with sincere and honest minds do above all things desire and endeavour to know his will that they may do it Yea I look upon it as an instance of his kindness and good providence that I so happily met with you from whom I have received such full satisfaction And as for the subtle arguments of Papists I hope by that assistance which you have already given me and yet further will do I shall in a-good measure be able to answer them In the following Chapter my Author produces several of these subtilties which he calls pregnant arguments against Sectaries and these I shall desire you to consider and give an answer to T. I am very willing to do it but that I may not tire you we 'l refer this to our next meeting L. I am well content only one favour I shall request that in the mean time you would please at your leisure to send me in writing the summ of what you have now discoursed that I may have the benefit of perusing it and fixing it better in my mind T. I shall readily grant your request and praying God to lead you into and settle you in the truth shall for this time bid you farewell L. Farewell Good Sir The Second Part. CHAP. I. Containing an Answer to some Arguments against Protestants T. WELL met Friend L. I am heartily glad Sir to meet you again so soon and do return you many thanks both for the pains you took in your late Conference with me and that you was pleased as I desired to send me the summ of it in writing which I have read over again and again to my fuller satisfaction T. I shall reckon my self very well recompenced for what pains I have taken if you reap any advantage thereby L. That I have done very much I thank God For upon the review of my Popish Author so far as we have proceeded I meet not there with any objection against our Religion nor with any argument for Popery but what I can easily answer Nay more than this since I was with you I have read over the last Chapter of his Book the consiâ—eration of which you defer'd till this our second meeting and truly I have not been much gravel'd with any thing in it but can
of some dangerous Disease and seeking to an able Physician for advice which when he has received and is about to follow it in comes a bold Mountebank and tells the Man it 's utterly impossible he should ever recover by hearkning to his Physician but if he will be guided by him all shall be well for he has an infallible Cure at hand that will certainly do the work Now suppose the Physician be so modest that he will not answer this impudent Quack in his own language nor say it 's impossible for his Medicines to do any good only he deals honestly with his patient and tells him of the danger of trusting himself in such a Mans hands who takes very desperate courses and where he cures one kills Twenty but for himself he shall prescribe nothing but what he can demonstrate to be safe and good and which through God's blessing hath often been very effectual Now in point of prudence what ought the patient to do in this case What must he reject a skilful and safe Physician because he speaks with modesty and caution and chuse the daring ignorant Mountebank because he talks big and boldly and boasts of Infallible Receipts of a certain and speedy Cure L. No surely by no means T. Yet so he should do by this Authors Argument for the choice of their Church because forsooth she condemns all others and commends her self talking as much of Infallibility as the most cheating Mountebank is used to do and with much what the same reason and truth The Case is so like that I need not trouble you with applying it L. No you need not For I understand it well enough and as well do I discern the weakness of his Argument T. And yet for your fuller satisfaction if need be I would have you read that Sermon I formerly told you of on 1 Cor. 3. 13. by a Reverend Divine of the Church of England where you will find this piece of sophistry so shamefully bafled and exposed that he must be a very silly and shameless Priest that will ever offer to make use of it more Wherefore to all that hath been said on this subject I shall only suggest one thing more to your consideration viz. that so far as this Argument hath any force in it it may with great advantage be retorted on Papists themselves For if that way be safest to be chosen in which both parties are agreed then are we Protestants clearly on the safer side For they themselves own the Scriptures which we embrace they approve of the Creeds which we hold they cannot but allow of the Worship of God in the name of Jesus Christ with all other the substantials of our Religion which as I have often said is nothing else but Christianity it self But now we do utterly disown the additions which the Romish Church has made to the Ancient Creeds many of their traditions we also reject as being plainly repugnant to the Holy Scriptures we condemn their worship of Images of Angels and Saints as being neither commanded by God nor practised by the Church of Christ in the Primitive times Hence then you may be informed what is safest to chuse and follow whether the plain and pure Religion of Jesus Christ profest in our Church and acknowledged by all Christians in the World even by the Papists themselves or to swallow down all those new Articles which their Church has added to the Christian Faith and defile our selves with those superstitions with which they have corrupted the Worship of God Many of which Doctrines and Practices are disapproved by all Christians but those of their own Sect and which upon good grounds we believe to be so utterly unlawful and pernicious that they make the condition of those in the Romish Church very hazardous and for our selves should we embrace them we could have no hopes of Salvation Judge then upon the whole what is safest to be chosen L. I confess I see little or no difficulty in the Case wherefore pray proceed to the second Argument T. I shall repeat to you what he calls so though for my part I find nothing in it that may deserve the name of an Argument Thus it runs That Church is not to be heard whose Authors and chief Doctors are meer Cozeners and Impostors and such he says are all but those of the Roman Church and therefore are not to be heard L. I deny that the Authors and Doctors of our Church are Cozeners and Impostors T. Thus he goes about to prove it They all say that they will reform the Roman Church with the pure Word of God and yet they have never done it nor will ever be able and therefore they are all meer Cozeners and Impostors This is all the proof he gives L. This all seems to me just nothing for I reckon that the Author of our Religion was no other than our Blessed Saviour and the first Teachers of it were the holy Apostles and Evangelists who taught it by their Preaching and then committed it to Writing in the Holy Word of God which we most readily embrace and in which our Religion is wholly contained And surely these were no Cozeners or Impostors but rather they who have corrupted Religion by their own novel inventions contrary to this Holy Word T. This is very true that you say but here by the Authors of our Church he means those Learned men who were instrumental for the reforming it from those inventions which he pleads for as a part of Religion L. This I believe to be his meaning But since these good men by Gods assistance did actually reform our Church by the pure Word of God from those Popish corruptions wherewith it was before polluted I admire why he should say they were Cozeners and Impostors for not doing what they pretended they would when as they have really done it T. And admire you still may For I cannot guess at his reason except by the Roman Church he means that particular Church which is at Rome or else the whole Sect of Papists all who own the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome and so stile themselves the Romish Church Take it in either of these senses and I confess this Romish Church is not yet reformed But this rather shews their obstinacy than any thing of deceitfulness in those who have attempted their Reformation If the Prophets and pious people of old would have healed Babylon and she would not be healed was this any dishonour to the Prophets Neither surely were any of the first Reformers so vain as to say that they would certainly reform the whole Church of Rome though they might heartily desire it and in their several places diligently endeavour it And thanks be to God through his assistance and blessing these their endeavours have been most happily successful in many Nations of the World and particularly in this our Kingdom of England for the delivering of our Church from the Usurpation of the Pope and
presses all men to endeavour after perfection in every grace and vertue and especially to be much in works of mercy and charity but yet she does not fright people with stories of Purgatory to bring in their wealth to the Church nor teach them that there is any great perfection in leaving their honest callings to run into a Monastery bringing their riches along with them thither She requires constant temperance and sobriety and sometimes imposes fasting and abstinence but then whether men eat a little flesh or fish oyl or butter she thinks it not a matter of the least moment but leaves all men to their own choice and prudence In a word she does not with the Pharisee teach for doctrines the commands of men but diligently inculcates the express commandments of Almighty God delivered to us in his holy Word And tho' she would not have us so foolish and proud as to think of meriting Heaven by our own good works yet she teaches that upon our patient continuance in well doing we shall through the mercies of God and the merits of Christ certainly obtain eternal life but upon no others terms does she encourage any man to hope for it And thus you see how our Church teaches us to take that same safe and narrow but sweet and pleasant way to salvation which is proposed to us in the Gospel L. I am fully perswaded she does so God grant me grace ever to walk in this holy way and then I shall not doubt of an happy end Pray proceed to his last argument T. I shall so and this it is That Church is not to be heard which has no solid reason for her keeping the Sabbath-day on the day she does keep it but no Church or Congregation of Sectaries has this and therefore none of them ought to be heard What say you to this L. I say that we of the Church of England whom he unjustly calls Sectaries have good reason for our keeping the Sabbath on that day we do keep it even as good reason as the Church of Rome it self has T. He goes on to prove the contrary thus No Church of Sectaries has Scripture for keeping the Sabbath-day on Sunday and no longer on Saturday as God commanded it and yet they reject tradition upon which ground the Roman Church keeps the Sunday in lieu of Saturday and therefore they have no solid reason for what they do c. L. I answer we have Scripture for keeping one day in seven viz. the fourth Commandment And we read that after our Saviours Resurrection the Apostles and Disciples commonly assembled together on the first day of the week which is called the Lords-day Revel 1. 10. And then we have tradition to assure us that this day was observed by the Christian Church ever since which tradition we may plead for our practice I trow as well as the Church of Rome T. Yes certainly we may for though we reject a great many ill things which they would thrust upon us for old traditions many of them being meer novelties of their own devising yet we do by no means reject such traditions as have sufficient evidence of their having been generally received by all Christian Churches from the very times of the Apostles down to our days and of this nature do learned men generally affirm the observation of the Lords-day to be And what you alledg from Scripture may very well serve to recommend to us so ancient and general a practice To all this besides the great equity and reasonableness of the thing in it self you may add the authority of those whom God hath set over us in Church and State all which being put together leaving the nice disputes that have been about this matter is a sufficient ground for our observation of the first day of the week as a Christian Sabbath a day of rest from our common employments devoted to the more solemn worship and service of God both in publick and private As solid reason therefore do we give for our practice herein as the Church of Rome it self can do or any other Church in the world And thus we have done with his five mighty arguments in which upon a little examination there appears nothing of strength or solidity He next musters up some weighty objections as he reckons them against those whom he calls Sectaries which he says ought to make them very much doubt whether they be secure in the way they are in And here according to his usual vain way of bragging he makes this large offer which yet he will never make good that all Priests Jesuits and Catholicks over all the world will turn to their way if they can but get from their Ministers a clear and satisfactory resolution of the following doubts L. It was cunningly done of him to call for a satisfactory resolution since though it be as clear as the light at noon-day yet they may still pretend that it is not satisfactory T. They may so though I question not but it will appear such to all that are impartial and judicious These doubts I shall propose to you in order and hear what you your self can say for the resolving of them L. I shall give in the best answers I am able and where I am at a loss shall still desire your help CHAP. II. A resolution of some doubts and questions proposed to Protestants T. FIrst he demands whether it can be clearly shewn that our Ministers were sent by Almighty God to preach and to reform the Roman Catholick Church or whether they are not some of the false Prophets who say The Lord saith when the Lord hath not sent them Ezek. 13. 6. L. There seems no great difficulty in resolving this doubt since our Ministers had lawful Ordination and thereby had authority to preach the Word of God And by the light of this word they discovered many errors and abuses in the Roman Church wherewith we were foully polluted and by Gods blessing and the assistance of lawful authority they were very instrumental in reforming us from the same Now whilst they proved their Doctrine by this Word of God they are not to be compared to those false Prophets who taught the people lyes and vanity as we have it Ezek. 13. 7 8. T. Your answer is sufficient and very clear For since our first Reformers did not publish a new Religion but rather restored the old by removing those corrupt additions that had been made to it they did not need any extraordinary commission from Heaven such as Moses had from God when he delivered the Law and as the Apostles had from Jesus Christ when they were first sent to preach the Gospel But it was sufficient that they were duly qualified by Gods Spirit for the work of the Ministry and were lawfully called to it by those who had authority in the Church to ordain them to that Office Such as these are truly said to be sent of God and are therefore
the Iewish Church by the solemn rite of Circumcision and since our Saviour hath no where given the least intimation that this priviledg should be taken from them I can see no reason why the children of Christian Parents may not be solemnly consecrated to God by Baptism and so admitted members of the Christian Church And to omit many other Texts which speak in favour of infants this without any wresting of the words may be fairly drawn from that commission given to the Apostles and their Successors Mat. 28. 19. Go ye therefore and teach or disciple all Nations baptizing them in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost They were to make Disciples of whole Nations which surely comprehends both Parents and Children First the Parents were to be instructed in the Christian Faith and upon their profession of it to be baptized And then they themselves being devoted to God and entred into Covenant with him since Parents have power over their children to dispose of them for their good and to lay engagements on them for that end surely it was lawful for them to devote their children also to God and to enter them into Covenant with him by Baptism thereby laying a strict obligation upon them when they come to years of discretion to perform their part of this holy Covenant if ever they hope for any benefit by it the Parents also being bound to acquaint their children with their duty so soon as they are capable of learning it Thus when any one from among the heathens became a proselyte to the Iews when he himself was circumcised so were his children also Yea learned men tell us that it was also the custom to wash these proselytes in pure water and that very probably our Saviour was pleased to accommodate himself to this same usage of theirs in his instituting of Baptism for the more solemn admission of members into his Church Now as an excellent Writer argues suppose that our Blessed Saviour instead of the word Baptizing should have used that of circumcising and have said Go teach all Nations circumcising them in the name c. would not all men have been apt to think that the same priviledg which the Iews had of admitting their children into Covenant by Circumcision that Christian Parents also should have the like why then may not the same be reasonably argued from the words though Baptism be here named and not Circumcision Very probable it is that the Apostles thus understood it and that they practised accordingly when we read of their Baptizing such and such persons and their housholds as Act. 16. 15 33. amongst whom there might be some children for any thing that can be shewn to the contrary And certain we are that very early in the Christian Church insants were admitted to Baptism and thence hath it continued to this day to be the general custom of all Churches throughout the world And pray take good notice that though our Church allows nothing to be imposed upon our belief or practice as necessary to salvation but what is contain'd in Gods holy Word yet she hath great regard to antiquity to the customs of the truly Catholick Church and the current Doctrine of the Fathers and requires Ministers to have due respect thereto in their Exposition of Scripture And therefore without any contradiction to her self may very well admit the observation of such customs that having so much ground from Scripture are recommended also by the early and general practice of the Christian Church This I say she may very well do but is by no means thereby obliged to receive all the traditions and customs of the Roman Church for many of which nothing can be truly pleaded either from Scripture or antiquity but very much against them from both L. This is very plain and satisfactory Pray let us have his next question T. It is this Can you make it appear to me how your Sectaries can with reason and sufficient ground condemn all the Catholicks that were so many ages before Luther and Calvin for being no better than heathens and convince me that by adhering to you I shall be more secure of my salvation than if I joyn my self to them that have been held time out of mind in most parts of the world for the men that have the true and only saving Religion What answer give you to this L. First I know no body that does thus condemn all Catholicks before Luther and Calvin For as to those Christians in the first ages of the Church who truly deserve the name of Catholicks whether of the Roman Church or any other we are so far from condemning that we admire and applaud them we approve of their Doctrine contain'd in the ancient Creeds and do imbrace and profess it we honour their memory and endeavour to imitate their example But as those of the Roman Church in latter ages whom he means I suppose by his Catholicks though we do not say they are as bad as heathens yet we do truly say that they have very much corrupted Christian Religion by false Doctrines and Superstitious usages and therefore we think it a much safer way to salvation to adhere to the ancient certain truths of Christianity every where received and to worship God in that pure and holy manner which our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles both taught and used than to embrace those additions made by the Roman Church which are no parts of true and saving Religion nor have ever been so accounted by the generality of Christians And though our ancestors might have some excuse from the state of this Church in their days yet we their posterity should be utterly inexcusable if now that our Church has so justly reformed her self from Popish corruptions we should break off from her communion and go over to the Church of Rome that hates to be reformed This were to add the guilt of Schism to that of Superstition T. Your answer is very clear and full and may well enough serve for the solution of his fifth Query which is to the same purpose with the former viz. Can you make evident at least that in your little flock or in Luther and Calvin their guides more holiness and virtue was to be found than in the Catholicks And that it is this little flock of yours not the Catholicks that go the narrow way that leads to life L. To this may easily be answered as you have formerly instructed me that though Luther and Calvin were learned and good men who in their own times and places did much service for the Reformation of Religion yet they never had authority in our Church nor do we own them as our guides The blessed Iesus is the Author of our Religion and after him the holy Apostles were the teachers of it being no other than Christianity it self and consequently the true way to eternal happiness even that narrow way of truth and holiness which the whole flock of Christ
articles of Faith so that no Church on Earth has any power to coin and impose new ones not revealed in the Scripture which I say acquaints us with all things needful to Salvation And this I am sure is plainly enough taught in the Scripture it self 2 Tim. 3. 15 16 17. The Holy Scriptures they then enjoy'd viz. the Writings of the Old-Testament are said to be able to make him wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Iesus being profitabâ—e to all things necessary thereto as you may there find it fully exprest So Joh. 20. 31. These things are written that you might believe that Iesus is Christ the Son of God and that believing you might have life through his name So that if we believe in Jesus Christ according to all that is written of him in the Gospel this Faith if it produce Obedience will certainly procure everlasting Life And indeed our own reason may well tell us that since the very design of the Holy Scripture is to reveal to us the whole Will of God in order to our Eternal happiness surely there is revealed in them all that is necessary to this end Can we imagine that those Holy Men who committed to Writing the Doctrine of our Blessed Saviour with an account of his Life and Death his Resurrection and Ascension c. that they would omit any thing which was necessary for us to know and believe in order to our Salvation when they wrote these things purposely that we might be saved Especially if we consider that they have given us a very large account of things much more than was of absolute necessity And in such abundance would they leave out things more necessary than those they have Recorded The necessary Articles of Faith are comprized in a little room and have generally been thought to be comprehended in the Apostles Creed This was the judgement of the Primitive Fathers and many Learned men of the Church of Rome have acknowledged as much Now the Articles of this Creed I hope are all contained in the Holy Scripture being there both largely exprest and frequently inculcated So that the ground-work of the Reformation remains firm and unshaken viz. that the Holy Scriptures contain all things necessary to Salvation and therefore those new Articles which the Roman Church hath invented besides yea contrary to these Scriptures ought by no means to be admitted L. The Doctrine of our Church concerning the Sufficiency of Holy Scripture seems very plain and the inference you make from it clear and natural But the Sixth Argument will give you occasion to discourse further on this Subject For my Author says it will be for confirmation of his former Proposition and thus it runs We would fain have Luther Calvin and other Sectaries shew where they find written that the Gospel according to St. Matthew is Holy Scripture rather than the Gospel of Nicodemus which seeing they cannot do and yet they believe too the Gospel of St. Matthew as to Holy Scripture they must needs confess that they believe some things which are not contain'd in Scripture T. His former Argument truly stands in much need of confirmation but is like to receive little from this which he brings to strengthen and enforce it Since if we grant him the whole of it I cannot see that it will do any service to his cause or any prejudice to ours For who ever denied but that we believe some yea many things which are not contain'd in Holy Scripture We believe there is such a Country as France and such a City in it as Paris though there be nothing of them in Scripture Or which is nearer to our purpose we believe there was such a Man in the World as Iulius Casar and that the Book which goes under his name called Casars Commentaries was indeed written by him This we believe on account of the current Tradition and constant opinion of the World from his time down to this present Age there being no ground to doubt of the truth of it since all circumstances concurr to render it credible Even thus to come to the Case in hand we believe the Gospel according to St. Matthew and the other Sacred Books to be Written by those persons whose names they bear in the Title as Authors of them because this hath been the constant judgement of the whole Church of God from the very Age wherein these Books were Written to this present time And on the other hand we have good reason to reject a Book pretended to be written by Nicodemus because none such was admitted by the Primitive Church which must needs have known of it if any such Book there had been For this reason it was never own'd as Canonical by the Catholick Church in any Age since nor therefore do we now receive it as such Where now I beseech you lies the strength of this his mighty Argument L. I confess I am so far from discerning the strength of it that I do not well understand what he aims at by it T. I 'le tell you then in a few words He would by his way of arguing force us to acknowledge that Holy Scripture does not contain all things necessary to Salvation but that there are some Traditions of the Church to be received with equal reverence and esteem as particularly that such and such Books are Canonical Scripture others not and that it is on account of the authority of the Church of Rome that these Traditions are to be received and therefore lastly they hence infer that all other Traditions which their Church proposes to us are by the same reason to be received without doubting or disputing This is their common way of arguing and this Author here and in other places insinuates the same But now to shew further how little of force or solid reason there is in this smooth and subtle talk pray consider with me seriously two or three things which I shall suggest to you L. I promise you my most diligent attention T. 1 Then we must ever carefully distinguish betwixt the tradition or delivery of the holy Scripture it self from one generation to another and those other traditions whether Doctrines or customes beside the holy Scripture which yet are by the Roman Church made of equal authority with it the former we own but not the latter For we most readily grant that there hath been a tradition of the holy Scripture as that which was written by such and such men inspired by the Holy Ghost from one age to another ever since the time of its first writing and so hath it been brought down to us in these days And those Books which the Primitive Church embraced as thus Sacred and Canonical and so delivered them to succeeding ages these do we embrace with all reverence and submission as the rule both of faith and manners containing the whole will of God in order to our salvation But then for this very reason do we utterly deny
that there are any other traditions of equal necessity to salvation which are not contain'd in these holy Scriptures 2 Note well that though the Church of God hath been a most faithful preserver of these holy Scriptures and hath carefully transmitted them from one generation to another yet it is not the Church which gives authority to the Scriptures as if she by any power in her could make that to be the word of God which is not so or unmake that which is indeed so No but the Church received for the word of God that which was delivered by holy men inspired by the Holy Ghost who gave full evidence of this their inspiration both by the nature of that Doctrine which they delivered and by the mighty miracles which God enabled them to work for the attesting the truth of this Doctrine both preached and written Now the Church which was in being in the first ages when these holy men committed their Doctrine to writing was a most competent witness of their writing those Books which go under their names and accordingly received them as the Sacred writings of such persons divinely inspired and so convey'd them to the next generation Thus the Iewish Church received the Books of Moses and the Prophets and thus the Primitive Christian Church received the writings of the Evangelists and the Apostles as also the Books of the Old Testament both upon the tradition of the Iewish Church and also upon the authority of our Blessed Saviour who own'd and approved of the same And thus the Books both of the Old Testament and the New have ever since by the good Providence of God been preserved in the Christian Church and handed down from one generation to another and so shall be we need not question to the end of the world And this same tradition of the Church whereby these holy Books are distinguished from all others and carefully delivered by the former age to the next following this we give all just regard to and do freely grant that this is of singular use for our information what Books belong to the Canon of Scripture what not and by this tradition we learn that this Book was written by this man under whose name it goes and another by that as for instance this by St. Matthew that by St. Mark c. But whilst the Church thus bears testimony to the Scripture to which testimony we give all due regard she does not I say give authority to it For there is a vast difference betwixt these two It 's the Kings hand and seal which gives authority to a writing containing suppose a grant of this or that priviledg but some credible persons his Secretaries or others who were witnesses to his signing or sealing of that writing may give testimony to it and so procure it to be own'd as authentick Thus the holy Scriptures which are recommended to us by the testimony of the Church derive their authority from God only who hath set to his seal that they are true as I have said both by the miracles that were wrought to confirm the Doctrine contained in them by the holiness of that Doctrine and many other circumstances relating thereto 3 Yet again take notice when I say we give such regard to the testimony of the Church I do not hereby mean the Roman Church as distinct from all others no by no means but the truly Catholick even the whole Christian Church whether of the East or West the North or South For this hath been the constant tradition of the whole Church in all ages ever since the Apostles that these Books were written by men divinely inspired and were given to be the rule of our faith and manners If some doubt was for a while made concerning a Book or two yet when these doubts were removed they were received into the Canon with the rest And this hath been the opinion not only of the Catholick Church but of most Hereticks and Schisinaticks also whose testimony here may be of great force whilst they could not but own the authority of Scripture even though they were confuted by it Yea to this I may add the acknowledgment of Heathens themselves or of Iews who lived in those times that the Books which go under the names of St. Matthew St. Paul c. were indeed written by them Thus we have a general current tradition not only of the Roman but of all other Churches in the world that such and such Books belong to the Canon of Scripture and this is commonly granted by Hereticks and Schismaticks themselves And even Heathens and Infidels who wrote against the Christian Religion have own'd these Books to be written by those persons whose names they bear who were eminent in that age for the propagating of our holy Religion So that we have a much more famous and uncontroulable tradition for it than that the Books which are said to be written by Tully Virgil c. are indeed their works which I think no body makes any doubt of Lastly from what hath been said you may infer that though we give just regard to this current tradition of the Universal Church by which these holy Books are convey'd to us as Canonical Scripture yet it does not in the least follow that we are therefore obliged to embrace all those Doctrines and practices of the Roman Church which she would impose upon us under the venerable name of Traditions of the Catholick Church whilst they are for the most part only the private opinions and usages of their own Church many of them of very late date and expresly contrary to the judgment and practice of the Christian Church in the first and purest ages of it as well as to the holy Scripture it self So that there is no more reason for our embracing these traditions of the Romish Church than there was for our Saviour and his Apostles to receive all the traditions of the Iewish Church by many of which they had made void the Commandments of God After all then Tradition rightly understood makes nothing against but apparently for us For if there be any other Tradition as universal as this of the Books of Holy Scripture our Church readily embraces it as before has been exprest And we will own that the summ of our Faith is brought down by Tradition viz. in the very form of baptizing in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost and more largely in the Apostles Creed wherein this form is explain'd We grant also that at first the Christian Faith was thus planted by the Preaching of the Gospel before the Books of the New Testament were written But now this our Faith is most plainly and fully contained in these Sacred Books whereas the additional Doctrines of the Romish Church are no more brought down by Universal Tradition than they are contain'd in the Holy Scripture which we assert to be the only sure and perfect rule of Faith and manners and upon all accounts much
more fit to be so than bare tradition which they of the Church of Rome so vainly boast of But for your further satisfaction in this point I shall refer you to a most solid and rational discourse concerning the Rule of Faith done by a Reverend Divine of our Church and shall now hasten to what remains L. His seventh Argument is this It cannot be shewn that for these 1500 years there hath been any Catholick who held that the Pope of Rome was Antichrist or that did revile and rail at the holy Sacrifice of the Mass or lastly that did blame Invocation of Saints the usual praying for the Dead and such like works of piety belonging to Faith and Religion which the whole world hath laudably practised and reverenced for 1500 years Wherefore it is most evident that Lutherans Calvinists c. do most wickedly when they dare revile such things T. These points have all of them been sufficiently discust already I have told you how one of their Popes did assert him to be the forerunner of Antichrist who should assume the title of Universal Bishop which his Successors have now a long time done whilst they claim a Supremacy over the Universal Church But which is more material I have she-wn how contrary the Doctrines and practices wherein Popery consists are to the nature and design of true Christianity and therefore may well enough be stiled Antichristian I have shewn that there is not properly a Sacrifice in the Communion but a commemoration of Christs Sacrifice only once offered and have also manifested that there is neither Scripture Reason nor good Antiquity to be pleaded on behalf of that Invocation of Saints and praying for the Dead which are now used in the Church of Rome As for railing and reviling I would not be guilty of it 'T is enough to disprove their errors and renounce them to shew the falshood and mischiefs of them and this I hope is not to be accounted railing In a word whatever he pretends no Christian Writers for four or five hundred years after our Saviour did assert the Bishop of Rome to be Christs Vicar on Earth and under him supreme Governour of the whole Christian Church Nor did they teach or practise such Invocation of Saints and praying for the Dead as are now in use amongst Papists And upon this account our Church hath with great reason and religion reformed her self from these and the like corrupt innovations L. Doubtless she has so and the weakness of his Arguments do the more assure me of it His last is nothing else but a repetition of what he has often said viz. That the first Authors of Christian faith in Germany Spain England c. have acknowledged and brought in no other faith nor have our forefathers received any other Faith than the Holy Catholick Roman which self-same we have received from our forefathers and have hitherto conserved Whence he concludes that Sectaries his common name for all Protestants have invented new opinions of their own and presented them to the people as a certain rule of Faith and the pure word of God and that consequently they are liable to the curse denounced against those who preach a new Gospel nor can ever hope to please God and attain eternal happiness being destitute of the right faith whereupon he advises his Scholar considering the nearness of death and the eternity of Hell torments to prefer the salvation of his Soul before all sublunary things T. So far his advice is good but 't is a wonder that any man who pretends to have a regard to his own or others souls and believe there is an Hell provided for such as make and love a lye dare be guilty of such notorious forgeries and calumnies as are contain'd in this his charge against Protestants as if they had proposed some new opinion of their own devising for a rule of Faith whilst it 's well known that we make the holy Word of God to be the only certain rule of it And even he himself a little before accused us for saying that nothing is to be believed but what is contained in Gods Word that is nothing as necessary to salvation as I have before granted and proved This he calls the ground-work of the Reformation and we do not deny it And that same Christian Faith which is contain'd in these holy Scriptures at large and briefly summ'd up in the Creed is that same Faith which the first planters of Christian Religion taught and established in our own and other Countries and this self-same do we retain to this day If then the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed as we commonly call it be a new invention so is our faith but if these contain an Abridgement of the truly ancient Catholick Faith then his charging us with new inventions is a most false and malicious slander so far are we from it that a great reason why we reject their Doctrines of the Supremacy and Infallibility of their Pope or Church with the rest of their Errors is because these are new inventions of their own and no part of the ancient Faith Wherefore instead of pronouncing the heavy sentence of damnation upon others which is true Popish charity it behoves them well to consider how they can exempt themselves from the curse threatned to those who preach another Gospel than the Apostles did which in some sort they do whilst they impose the Traditions of their Church of which the Apostles never spoke a syllable as of equal certainty and authority with the Holy Scriptures themselves But I am tired with his Arguments which still lead me so oft to repeat the same things Though I shall not repent it if it any way tend to give you more satisfaction L. I thank God I am well satisfied with your discourse and am now fully convinced that there is small strength in these his Arguments which he pretends to be such pregnant and unanswerable things But after all there remains something which he calls an evident demonstration that the Roman Catholick Church hath been and still is the true Church which I shall desire you to take into examination T. Yes very willingly and I doubt not but we shall soon find how little it deserves the name of a demonstration Though if it be possible for him to produce any thing that has an appearance of truth and reason sure he will now do it in the last place that it may leave the greater impression upon his Reader Let us hear then what he says CHAP. IV. An Answer to a pretended Demonstration That the Roman Church is the true Catholick Church L. THIS Demonstration which he so much boasts of is taken he says from one Dr. Baily who it seems revolted from our Church to that of Rome and thus it runs It will not be denied but that the Church of Rome was once a most excellent flourishing Mother-Church This Church could not cease to be such but she must fall
from it This also is the practice of the Romish Church whilst she requires men to profess their belief of that which by God's Word they know to be most false and to practise that which from the same word they are assured is unlawful and abominable By all this it appears then that the Church of Rome whilst she cries out against all others as Schismaticks is her self most Schismatical in that she sets up her self above all other Churches and will hold Communion with none but those who enslave themselves to her draws away people from their own Pastours and imposes unlawful terms of Communion upon all her Members Now by this means she hath departed from the way of the Ancient Catholick Church which never allow'd any such Usurpation but strictly forbade it in the Canons of the most Ancient most general and orthodox Councils By this means she broke off from the Eastern Church which would not submit to this her Usurpation And by this means she made it necessary for the Western Churches to withdraw from her that they might not be defiled with her Errors and Corruptions and to reform themselves so far as they had been defiled and most unjust it is in her to refuse Communion with them on account of their Reformation Yea by this means lastly she hath in some sort departed from her self I mean from that integrity and purity of Faith and Worship which once was in the Church of Rome and did for some Ages continue in it But by degrees she did more and more degenerate till at length she became so polluted that it was altogether unlawful and unsafe to retain Communion with her lest partaking in her Sins we should also partake in the Plagues that were due to them The gradual Apostasie of their Church is so evident that few of their own most famous Historians have the impudence to deny it Even Baronius himself as well as many others makes heavy complaints of that corrupt state it was faln into about Nine hundred or a thousand years after our Saviour when he confesses that impudent Strumpets had got such an interest in Rome that Church preferments were disposed of at their pleasure yea the Popedom it self So that he says our Lord seem'd to be a sleep in the Ship which was in danger of being overwhelmed with waves with much more to the same purpose And what sort of creatures were then made Popes appears full plain by the History of their Lives written by their own Followers Many of them such Monsters of men for all manner of villany and lewdness that they seem to exceed the very worst of the Heathen Emperors And can we think it impossible or unlikely for these men to fall into error and superstition who wallowed in all vice and wickedness Can their Infallibility be secured when their virtue is lost Will the Spirit of Truth whom the wicked World cannot receive dwell in such impure defiled minds No certainly this Blessed Spirit is only promised to those who love our Saviour and keep his Commandments Some of these Popes are accused not only of the most bruitish sensuality but of Blasphemy Infidelity and even Atheism it self And what a Clergy was the Church like to be filled with when the very Heads of it were thus corrupt And alas what a sad influence was this like to have on the minds and manners of the people How like would their state be to that of the Jewish Church Isa 1. 4 5 6. The head sick and the heart faint from the soal of the foot even to the head no soundness in it but wounds and bruises and putrifying sores Or as in Ier. 5. last The Prophets prophesy falsly the Priests bear rule by their means and the people love to have it so No wonder then if whilst the Watchmen slept the enemy came and sowed Tares Plainly it 's no wonder in such times of ignorance and profaneness that manifold errors and abuses both in Doctrine and Worship should creep into the Church especially such as made for the interest and reputation of the Clergy who having little of sanctity and true worth left they take other methods to recommend themselves to the people and having an ignorant credulous people to deal with their chief business was to gratify their fond superstitious humour and to advance themselves in their esteem And most of those things in difference betwixt us and the Church of Rome do plainly serve to this purpose either to promote the wealth and honour of the Clergy or to please the senses and amuse the fancies of a carnal superstitious people to keep them in ignorance and indulge them in their sins rather than to bring them to sound knowledge and true repentance and godliness as the instances oft before given do plainly shew You see then into what a corrupt state the Church of Rome hath degenerated in these latter Ages and therefore how great Reason there was to Reform our Church from Popish corruptions and how little reason you have to desert this well-reformed Church whereof by God's Mercy you are a Member to run over to Rome which abhors all thoughts of a Reformation Nay you would have no reason to betake your self thither though that Church was at this day as pure and orthodox as when it was first planted by the Apostles L. So little reason do I see for my going over to the Romish Church that had I till now lived in communion with it I durst not for a world continue any longer therein And by what you have said I plainly find that this Evident Demonstration my Author so boasts of is a piece of as meer sophistry as any other of his Pregnant Arguments and Unanswerable Propositions of which he has mustered up a great number to little purpose And whilst there is no more strength in his Reasons I give little need to his censures how bitter soever For he uses much what the same harsh and uncharitable language in the conclusion of his Book that he did at the beginning That no Salvation is to be had out of the Church of Rome that if we will not have her for our Mother we must not expect to have God for our Father quoting St. Austin for it T. But without all Reason whilst he applies to their particular Church what is said of the Catholick Church of Christ. But nothing more common in their mouths than the Roman Catholick Church as if there were no true Christians or Catholicks in the World but those of their own party which how unreasonable as well as uncharitable it is we have before seen L. Certainly it is both in a very high degree whilst he dare boldly doom all men to damnation except his Roman Catholicks whom he looks upon as the only favourites of God and heirs of Heaven For he says they cannot be in the least danger of missing the inheritance of God's Children in the next Life if they have lived as they believed T. What
their condition shall be let us leave to the just Judge of all men remembring the Apostles saying Not he who commendeth himself is approved but he whom the Lord commendeth How far the ill education and ignorance of any of them may serve to excuse or lessen their faults it becomes not us to determine But as to our selves we may safely assert that for us to go against the light of Gods Word and our own Consciences in professing their Errors and joyning in their corrupt Worship would be a piece of inexcusable and damnable wickedness Whereas on the other hand we may rest fully satisfied and assured that if we sincerely believe the Holy Gospel which is at this day purely and plainly taught in our Church and live in strict and stedfast obedience to the precepts of it which are dayly inculcated upon us we shall most certainly obtain that Eternal Salvation which in this Gospel is promised to all such obedient Believers Of this we are as sure as that God is true for Heaven and Earth shall sooner fail than one tittle of his Holy Word on which we depend L. Whilst we depend on this Word certainly we shall never be deceived or disappointed But methinks it 's very bold Language and little better than Blasphemy with which my Author concludes his Book when he says that his Roman Catholicks may at the hour of death with confidence use those words of an Ancient Writer O Lord if it be Error which we have believed we are deceived by thee for thou hast confirmed these things to us by such signs and prodigies as could not be done but by thee with more to that purpose T. This can only with truth be spoken concerning the Christian Religion to which God bare witness by mighty Signs and Wonders But to apply it to the false Doctrines of Popery is indeed no better than Blasphemy For neither our Saviour or his Apostles ever taught these Doctrines nor did God ever work a Miracle for the confirming of them L. Surely it would argue more modesty to suspect the weakness of their own judgment and better to examine their Cause rather than to charge God himself with deceiving them if they are deceived T. Very true but you know the Proverb None so bold as those that are blind otherwise certainly they have reason enough to suspect that Cause to be very weak which is supported by no better Arguments than these which your Author hath produced who yet no doubt hath given us the best he could devise of his own head or meet with in their Writers CHAP. V. Of the number of Sacraments with some other things briefly discust and the conclusion of the whole L. SIR I am now come to the end of my little Book and ought therefore to put an end to the trouble I have given you yet before we part will you please to satisfy me in one thing of which I find no mention in my Author T. I shall willingly when I hear what it is L. 'T is concerning the number of Sacraments for Papists charge it as a great defect upon our Church that we have but two whilst they say they have seven T. How little reason there is for this Charge will soon appear if you consider that as to four of these five which the Papists pretend to have more than we though we give them not the name of Sacraments yet we have the things themselves And as to the fifth there is not the least reason that we should receive or they retain it For your fuller satisfaction I shall name them to you and in a few words make good what I have said L. Pray will you please to do it and I shall trouble you with no more questions hereafter T. To the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lords Supper which both we and they receive they do further add Confirmation Holy Orders Marriage Penance and extreme Unction Now as to the name of Sacrament it 's a vain thing to dispute about words till we are agreed of the sense and meaning of them For if by Sacrament they mean any sacred rite or usage that may signify some grace or some good duty or by way of allusion may serve to some good purpose in Religion then instead of Seven they may perhaps reckon Seventeen Sacraments or many more And in this large and looser sense the Ancients commonly made use of the word giving the name of Sacrament to many things relating to Religion which are any way mystical or significant yea frequently they call our Religion it self a Sacrament or Mystery And if they of the Church of Rome will use the word in this large sense and so stile the several things now mentioned Sacraments let them enjoy their liberty I think it 's not worth contending about Only let them not say that we despise the things themselves because we think it not so fit to give them this name For by a Sacrament we understand as it 's exprest in our Church-Catechism an outward sign of an inward spiritual grace given unto us ordained by Christ as a means whereby we receive the same Grace and a pledge to assure us thereof Now in this sense we say that only Baptism and the Lords-Supper are properly to be called Sacraments being ordained by Christ's express command as a way and means for the bestowing of his Grace upon all that duly partake of them These are as it were the Seals of the Covenant of Grace as Divines use to stile them which all Christians if they have opportunity are obliged to make use of For hereby we do in a solemn manner profess our selves to be Christ's Disciples and engage our selves to walk in all holy obedience to his Laws and so make a Covenant with him and upon our sincerity herein we receive Grace from God to enable us for our duty and have an assurance of his favour and of all the blessings that flow from it in and through Jesus Christ. Thus hath our Lord plainly ordain'd that all who believe in him should be Baptized with Water in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost for the profession of our faith in him and for the receiving the remission of our Sins with spiritual Regeneration Thus did he institute the holy Communion commanding all Christians to celebrate the same in remembrance of him for a commemoration of his death till his second coming and hereby we partake of the Body and Blood of Christ for the refreshing and strengthning of our Souls Plainly then you see how these two Sacraments were ordained by Christ himself for the use of all Christians to be as it were the badges of their profession that hereby they might solemnly testify their consent to the Covenant of Grace and at the same time may receive the blessings of this Covenant But now this cannot be said of those other things which the Papists call Sacraments how useful soever any of them may be in other respects For though
we call them not Sacraments yet we do not in the least deny whatever of goodness or usefulness is to be found in them but do our selves I say embrace them and make use of them all but one to such good ends and purposes as they serve for which will easily appear by a brief survey of them First As to Confirmation you may see in what esteem it is in our Church by the Office appointed for it in the Liturgy where it is expresly ordered that those who are come to years of discretion and well instructed in the Principles of Religion so that they are capable of taking upon themselves the vow that was made for them in Baptism that they should openly before the Bishop and the Congregation make profession of their Faith and ratify and confirm their Baptismal Vow whereupon the Bishop lays his hands upon them according to the most ancient usage in blessing and praying for a person and begs of God to strengthen and increase in them the Graces of his holy Spirit that they may continue for ever in his Service And this practice of Confirmation many of our Divines who have written about it do highly commend as a very Iaudable useful and ancient constitution and which if the Rules of our Church about it were more duly observed mightily tends to the promoting of knowledge and godliness even much more than as it is practised in the Church of Rome where it 's administred to Infants not long after Baptism whereas it seems plainly designed in our Church for those who are of a competent Age that they may take their Baptismal Vow upon themselves which if they do seriously and understandingly it must needs make the deeper impression on their minds more firmly oblige them to the observance of it and better qualify them for the assistance of God's Grace and render them more fit for the Holy Communion where again they solemnly renew the same Vow Yet all this while we do not reckon Confirmation to be a Sacrament in the sense our Church uses that word nor do we equal it with Baptism and the Lords-Supper since we find no such express institution of it by our Saviour in the Gospel nor such promises of Grace made upon the use of it Nor therefore does our Church think that the want of it will be any hindrance to the Salvation of baptized Infants who dye before they are confirmed As for Holy Orders there is much less reason to give the name of Sacrament to them since they belong to only one sort of men who are thereby devoted not to Christianity that was done at Baptism but to the work of the Ministry In the mean time no body sure can be ignorant of the practice of our Church in this matter how careful she is in conferring holy Orders on all those whom she admits to minister in holy things And with what gravity and solemnity this Office is performed may be seen in those publick forms that are appointed in our Liturgy for the ordaining of Bishops Priests and Deacons As for Marriage though we grant that in it is signified the Mystical Union betwixt Christ and his Church yet do we not call it a Sacrament nor see any reason so to do considering the definition of a Sacrament given before But yet we believe it to be an honourable state instituted by God in the time of Man's innocency yea with the Apostle we judge it to be honourable in all men Priests as well as others St. Peter himself having been a Married Man Whilst the Church of Rome forbids her Clergy to Marry thereby seeming to have no great esteem for it She extols a single life more highly above it than there seems good reason for and reckons them a more holy sort of persons than others who abstain from Marriage whilst yet they call it a Sacrament it 's well if they be not more unholy But I hasten to that of Penance Here indeed we do not with the Church of Rome exact from men a particular confession of all their private faults nor send them on long Pilgrimages to this or that Saint nor make them go so far barefoot or barehead nor oblige them to give themselves so many lashes or to say over so many Pater-nosters and Ave-maries but rather we press upon them the great duty of Repentance and Reformation without which they cannot be pardoned that they should confess their sins to God with shame and sorrow speedily and thorowly forsaking the same In some Cases also there is a publick Penance enjoyn'd by the discipline of the Church that notorious offenders should openly acknowledge their crimes beg pardon of God and the Congregation profess their sorrow and purposes of amendment requesting the prayers of Minister and People on their behalf But this while we see no Reason to give the name of Sacrament to mens expressing their repentance As to any bodily austerities that may tend to the mortification of sin or to a sort of holy Revenge on our selves for it our Church gives no particular precept about them but leaves every man to his own discretion as the Gospel has done but she most earnestly calls them to break off their sins by righteousness and their iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor and very useful it is for them to advise oft with their spiritual Guide You see then as to these four which Papists call Sacraments that our Church cannot in the least be charged with any defect for not having the things themselves for we both use them all and give them due esteem though we do not think the title of Sacraments in our sense of the word properly to belong to them As for the last thing mention'd that of Extreme Unction which is an anointing of â—ying persons with Oil consecrated for that purpose we are so far from accounting it a Sacrament that we do not at all use it in our Church nor see any reason why we should That which Papists chiefly alledge for it is from St. Iames Chap. 5. 14 15. Is any man sick among you let him call for the Elders of the Church and let them pray over him anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord and the prayer of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up Now it seems most probable that this custom was to last but during the time of miraculous Cures in which sometimes Oil was made use of as Mark 6. 13. though some think there might be a medicinal virtue in the Oil it self But however it be it affords not a sufficient ground for what is now practised in the Church of Rome For in those times you see it was intended for the health of the body whereas the anointing amongst Papists is pretended to be for the benefit of their Souls and is commonly used when they perceive no hopes of recovery which is a meer device of their own there being no command of God for it nor any
our Church both formerly and very lately Only pray consider what an unreasonable thing it is for any to pretend that they have as good ground to separate from our Church as our Church it self had to separate from Rome Surely there is a very plain and vast difference in the case since as I have often told you the Church of Rome has nothing to do with us in England and she also imposed things unlawful as conditions of Communion Neither of which can be justly pleaded by our Separatists For I hope the authority of our Church and State extends to those of our own Nation and I reckon that our obedience in this case is bound upon us by the express commands of God himself which enjoyns us to be subject to the higher Powers to Kings and all in authority under them to obey them that have the Spiritual rule over us and watch for our souls to have respect to the very custom of the Church wherein we live to consult for the peace of it and to avoid all factions and divisions By such precepts I reckon we are obliged to submit to lawful authority requiring of us nothing but what is lawful And nothing else doth our Church require for there is nothing in her Prayers or Sacraments contrary to the Word of God This holy Word neither directly or by any good consequence forbids forms of Prayer or kneeling at the Communion which is all that the people are concerned in for as to the Cross and Surplice they belong to the Minister Now one would wonder how ever any man should fancy that a Prayer becomes unlawful by my knowing it beforehand and having often used it one would think this should rather recommend it Or why should it seem unlawful to kneel in reverence to God when I receive from him such great blessings as are represented and bestow'd in the Lords-Supper and am praying that I may effectually partake of them Are these things to be compared with what the Church of Rome requires of its members Is a form of Prayer to the true God like worshipping an Image or praying to an Angel or Saint which in other words is but to ask whether saying the Lords-prayer be as much a fault as praying to the Virgin Mary Is our kneeling to God at the Communion like adoring the Host which our Church expresly declared her abhorrence of as gross Idolatry But besides all this it cannot so fitly be said that our Church separated from the Church of Rome to which she ow'd no obedience but rather that she only Reformed her self from such errors and corruptions as the Romish Church was infected with and had spread the infection amongst her neighbours But Papists properly were the Separatists who refused to hold communion with our Church after it was Reformed though this Reformation was wrought in a regular manner and by just authority as I have before shewn And yet after all shall this our Church be stiled Popish when those holy men who were chief Reformers of it and who composed and used those Prayers which are objected against laid down their lives many of them for a testimony against Popery Yea and all other Reformed Churches have profest their great honour for our Church their communion with it and have as occasion has been offered declared against those who separate from it yea the most learned and judicious Nonconformists themselves have heretofore with great zeal preach'd and written against such separation and some of them more lately So that they who separate from us and set up Churches of their own gathering in opposition to those established by Law seem to have espoused a very desperate cause which has neither Scripture Reason nor good authority to defend it Strange that the Church of England which hath generally been accounted the glory and bulwark of the Reformation the envy and vexation of the Papist that yet she her self should be deserted and condemned by those who come out of her own bowels as a Popish Church O that there were many more such Popish Churches in the world Or rather O that all Christian Churches were so thoroughly Reformed from Popery In how happy a state would Christendom then be Wherefore again let me beseech you as you have any regard to the peace and prosperity of Church and State and to the interest of Religion amongst us see that you vehemently abhor all thoughts of Separation utterly reject all temptations to it For Religions sake I say for it 's too too apparent how much this suffers by our divisions as well as the publick weal whilst we are broken into parties and factions it threatens ruin to the Kingdom thus divided against it self yea and to the Kingdom of God also that is amongst us for this consists in righteousness and peace and that joy in the Holy Ghost which flows from charity and concord But where there is strife and envy there will be confusion and disorder and every evil work censures and slanders hatred and malice sedition and rebellion biting and devouring each other till at length without the infinite mercy of God we shall be consumed one of another or by a common enemy Wherefore I will add If you have any zeal against Popery see that you live in strict communion with the Church of England as now by Law established For nothing can be more directly framed in opposition to Popery than the whole constitution of our Church and should this be broken to pieces to what shall we crumble whither shall we run who can tell us nay who cannot tell what in all likelihood will be the event If in a besieged City there be several factions that in fury against each other break down their own walls and throw open their Gates are they not like to fall into the hands of their enemies who are watching for such an advantage whatever abhorrence our Dissenters have for Popery they cannot do a thing more pleasing to the Papist or more serviceable to his cause than to reproach the Church of England as Popish and set up themselves as a party against it By this means they give their assistance for the weakning and destroying of that Church which the Papist on the other hand hath so long been endeavouring to undermine and subvert by whose overthrow though the Papist might be exalted yet themselves most probably and most justly too would be crushed in pieces by its ruins But I fear I have tired you L. So far from it that I am greatly pleased with this your serious and earnest advice which may the better secure me against all temptations to separation if hereafter I should meet with them But I hope through the grace of God I shall always live so mindful of my duty to yield obedience to my Rulers in all things lawful and to do my utmost for preservation of the peace both of Church and State that I shall never be drawn into any separating party or faction which oft occasions
which we are far from granting And even this much may well enough serve to shew the weakness of his argument L. Very weak it is indeed when though it should be granted yet makes little or nothing to his purpose T. But in the next place I would have you further consider what has often before been suggested and proved that the Church of Rome is at this day so degenerated and corrupted that supposing you lived under a Popish Government even in Rome it self where the Pope is in effect King as well as Bishop yet there it would be utterly unlawful for you to hold communion with that Church upon the terms now required by it For this Church I say is foully degenerated from its Primitive purity both in Doctrine Worship and Discipline and is thereby guilty in some sort of Apostasie Heresie and Schism even so far as to make her communion unlawful since it cannot be had without a most sinful compliance with her in gross errors and corruptions 1 I say she is guilty of Apostasie and have before made it evident in that she teaches such false Doctrines as were not own'd and uses such a corrupt way of worship as was not practised in the first ages of the Christian Church Hereby therefore she has Apostatized or departed from that purity and integrity which she was once honoured with when her faith was spoken of throughout the world Rom. 1. For pray consider a Church may be guilty of a great degree of Apostasie though she does not renounce the very name and title of Christianity Those Churches of Asia to which the Messages were sent in the second and third of the Revelation did not renounce the name of Christians but yet we read that they had faln from their first love and were so far declined that of some of them it s said they had only a name to live and were dead and are severely threatned that without repentance and reformation they should be destroy'd How the Church of Rome has vilely degenerated from the Primitive Church has already been shewn in many instances particularly as to their way of Worship whilst they pray to Angels and Saints make use of Images worship the Consecrated bread take away the Cup from the people in the Communion have their Service in an unknown Tongue c. Now because she is guilty of such Apostasie and corruption in her Worship every good Christian who makes conscience of worshipping God according to his will reveal'd in his Word may justly refuse to joyn with her therein 2 And not only in her Worship but in her Doctrine also she hath apostatized from the Primitive integrity even from the true rule of Faith the holy Word of God And on this account she may justly be reputed guilty of Heresie if by that word you understand very soul and gross errors apparently contrary to the holy Scriptures and to the Doctrines of the Primitive Church Such for instance are their Doctrines of the Popes Supremacy and power of deposing Princes for Heresie and of their Churches Infallibility be it in Pope Council people or where you will for they are not agreed amongst themselves about it Such also are their Doctrines of Transubstantiation Purgatory with others the like Now here it 's a vain thing to ask by what General Council were these Errors condemned what Fathers wrote against them c. since there never was any true General Council called since the Church of Rome broached and maintain'd these Errors And those who are commonly honoured with the title of Fathers viz. the Christian Writers for five or six hundred years after our Saviour were dead and gone before that time Though some of the most holy and learned men of those ages wherein these Errors were first published did with great zeal and diligence oppose and testifie against them as against Transubstantiation Image-worship c. But it 's enough for us that these Doctrines are contrary to Scripture and to the writings of the most ancient Fathers and were never established by those famous Councils of old which best deserve the name of General On account therefore of these false Doctrines also I reckon it utterly unlawful to hold communion with the Romish Church since we cannot be admitted to it without professing our consent to and approbation of them 3 And therefore lastly this Church is notoriously guilty of Schism that is of a groundless sinful separation from other faithful Christians whilst she makes such unlawful terms of Communion that no man well informed can with a good conscience comply with Now in order to our proving the Church of Rome guilty of Schism there 's no great need of answering his captious questions whose company did she leave where was the true Church which she forsook c. For though these questions are proper enough when we speak of the Schism of particular persons from the Church of which they were members yet the case is different when we are speaking of a whole Church its self becoming Schismatical this is to be shewn plainest by other methods to which I shall now apply my self and shall also as I go along give sufficient answer even to those questions so as shall abundantly serve to demonstrate the Church of Rome to be deeply guilty of this heinous sin of Schism and that on sundry accounts 1. If a particular Church shall advance her self above all other Churches and set up her Bishop as the Supreme Governour of all other Christian Bishops and Churches and will have no Communion with any but such as shall submit to her Supremacy this is a Schismatical Church For without any just ground she withdraws her self from her Sister-Churches and gives them just cause to renounce communion with her And this is the Case of the Romish Church who makes this proud claim and hath thereby divided her self from all other Churches that will not submit to her which they who do are themselves partakers with her in Schism whilst they set up a false head of the Church without any good warrant from Scripture Reason or Antiquity 2. When a particular Church on account of this unjust claim of Supremacy shall draw away the Members of other particular Churches perswading them to separate from their own Bishops and Pastors and to entertain such as she sets over them she is in this also plainly Schismatical as making horrid rents and divisions in neighbouring Churches which else might have lived in peace and union And those Members who are thus seduced and drawn away are also guilty of Schism in leaving their own proper Pastors to follow Usurpers and Intruders And this also is the case of the Romish Church and its adherents at this day 3. If any Church shall impose unlawful conditions upon her Members so that they cannot live in Communion with her without being guilty of wilfull sin then is that Church it self to be pronounced Schismatical and not those Members who for so good reason withdraw