at his mouth If he wrest the law and teach false doctrine men should let him alone as a blind guide least they fal with him into the ditch But herein you misse proportion in making many common weales and but one church wheras there be also many churches For though there be but one catholik or vniversall church which is invisible comprehending the whole familie in heaven and in earth yet are there many particular churches visible as in Galatia in Asia and other partes of the world Now you imagine one visible catholik or vniversal church having visible officers and a visible head the Pope invested as praesident Vrbiet Orbi all the world over and all particular churches with their Bishops to be under the guidance of that visible head This is neyther according to God who appointed no such order nor according to man for is ther any one Monarch over all the world unto whom all nations vvith their governours doo obey Your conclusion is vvorst of all For by Peters successor you mean the Bishop of Rome onely Wheras Peter being an Apostle had no successor in his Apostleship as he vvas Bishop or Pastor all Bishops in all churches are his successors and not onely the Bishop of Rome 1 Pet. 5. 1. 2. Act. 20. 28. Againe you vveen that your Pope is necessarily indued with the holy ghost vvheras the starr of the Roman church as vvel as of any other church may fall from heaven and may have the key of the bottomlesse pitt And vvhy Rome should have preeminence above all other cities in the vvorld I cannot tell unlesse because â— by her policie our Lord Christ was crucified For which above all other cities she deserves the visible curse And if God in justice hath wasted Ierusalem for this syn how can we think that he hath blessed Rome which hath spilt the blood of Christ and of may other his Saincts The book of the Apocalyps shewes plainly the contrary Apoc. 17. 18. Agayn you would lay an intollerable burden upon the churches for every synner is to be judged and excommunicated if he repent not by that particular church wherof he is a member as is Christs playn rule Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. compared with 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. 12. 13. but you applying Christs rule to Rome onely would constreyn al men al over the world when they deal with their brethren for syn and folow them to excommunicatio they not repenting to come to Rome before the Pope which is unpossible Othâ—rweise by what rule from Christ cite you men thither Wherfore you conclude that which your premisses no way do prove beg the question to gayn the time But you are angrie that I Ieav your supplie of later Doctors wheras I told you playnly at the first that I would trie and be tried in religion by the holy scriptures onely as being the undoubted rule of truth If you would not thus have dealt why began you the battel I have far greater cause to except against them then you can have against my records of the Prophets Apostles for your fathers are but children in respect of theÌ„ nothing so ancient nothing so authentik in any comparison nothing so playn nothing so constant but contrary one to an other contrary some times unto the truth contrary to themselves Example by Augustine plainly averring with me you bring him retracting or leaving indifferent How then should we trust him that trusteth not himself So I told you Doctors mought be alleged against Doctors you marvel at it Nay marvell at them at your self that allege them You quote Chrysostom homil 55 in Mat. and there though these be not the words you mean he savth vpon this rock wil I build my Church that is faith and confession whither this make more for you or for me let indifferent men judge You cite Origen homil 5. in ExoduÌ„ wheras if you would read him on Matthew you may find how he counteth al Christians Peters which the Pope wil not allow You produce Ambrose serm 47. wheras the same man upon Ephes. 2. sayth vpon this rock wil I build my church that is in this confession of the catholik faith I appoint the faithfull unto life Thus if I would weary my self and my reader in your wildeâ—nes I could send you up and down from one father to an other from the same father in one place to himself in another as for Hillarie whom you quote I may cite â—yssenus in testimon ex vet Test. de Trinitate and from Cyril l. 2. c. 1â— comment in Ioan. as you alledge him I can direct you to the same Cyril de Trinitat l. 4. And when now shal we get out of this wood But wander you there alone if you wil I mean not so to toyl in vayn Yet coÌ„demn I not the men but reverence their labours how â—eit I reverence Gods word more As for me I would not have you or any rest upon my words but upon the proofs which I bring from the book of God which though it be litle yet they that eat it may prophesie among people and nations and tongues and to many kings And me thinks you need not be offended that I refuse to fight with dead men and doo deal vvith you by the scriptures onely for you have as you may think the advantage vvho besides my weapon that single two edged sword of Gods vvord which you may use also as you can have likevveise to help you the arrovves of the Fathers the halberds of the Councils the bullets of your schole men the canons of your Canonists vvith the panoplie of your Popes froÌ„ vvhom all Bishops as a Byshop sayth doe grovv as members grow from the head and of whose fulnes they doe all receiv that if my cause be not very good you must needs drive me out of the feild Vse therefore if you please the reasons of all or any of these and I vvil ansvver them to you not to the dead but if you muster their bare names onely be sure you shal neyther fray nor hurt me Next you retire to the place of Iohn 21. feed my sheep I told you al the Apostles had that charge Mat. 28. 19. 20 Iohn 20. 21. The contrary you say is manifest since he sayd onely to him feed my flock to whoÌ„ he said before lovest thou me more then they in which words he excludeth al the other Think you in good sooth that the former charge layd upoÌ„ all vvas taken from them novv layd vpon Peter onely because upon special occasion he vvas spoken to alone Why then Peter also vvas himself discharged vvhen after this Christ spake to Paul alone sending him to the gentils to open their eyes c. to preach the gospel But it is a strange collection of you that vvhen a company of men are sent vvith one commission and one of them
he is the eight and is one of the seaven meaning the Popes vvho by an Ecclesiasticall goverment differ from the civil Emperors and so are an eight yet because they reign togither vvith the Emperours they make as it were one regiment and so the eight is one of the seven as the scripture sayth And that the word King dooth signify a kingdome or regiment appeareth by Dan. 7. 17. where the 4. beasts are sayd to be 4. kings meaning kingdomes as is explayned in v. 23. the fourth beast is the fourth kingdome So this exposition is playn and according to truth And thus notwithstanding all that you have brought the Pope remayneth Antichrist And think it not much that Antichrist is so ancient The Iewes look for Christ and he is come 1600. yeres agoe but they know him not You looke for Antichrist and he hath been wel nigh so many yeres in the vvorld and you are not aware If you read the book of the Revelation judicially God opening your hart you may discern that mysterie of Babylon which yet is hidden from your eyes And for preeminence forbidden to Christs ministers see Mat. 20. 25. 26. Luk. 22. 25. 26. That which you allege of Tit. 2. 15. showes the power authoritie of the word duly preached and applyed to mens consciences and is not peculiar to the head of the church the Pope for you see Titus there had it but it is common to all Christs ministers You turne back to your general argument vvhich I had confuted How good a defense you have brought I am content to let the prudent reader judge Onely where you charge me vvith falshood for saying the Pope with you is above the law which you deny in my sense I answer my sense is according to your own explication that extrinsecally and as it is to be knowen of us Gods word depends on the churches that is the Popes authority He putteth Apocryphal lying books in to the holy canon his interpretation though absurd and hereticall must stand for authentick and a definition of his ex cathedra you reverence as an oracle And he dispenseth against Gods law Is not he now above yea he sitteth as God in the Temple of God as Paul prophesied 2 Thes. 2. 4. The third thing which heretofore the seventh thing which now you should prove is that the indeficieÌ„t rule of our fayth is onely to be found in the â—â—man catholick church sentence and not in private mens illuminatioÌ„s c. I hold neyther of these as I told you before You labour agayn to mainteyn the former First you prove this in that the RomaÌ„ church you say is the onely true catholick church I answer You fayrly beg the question and would prove it is so because it is so You speak vntruely in calling her the true church proudly in caling her the onely true church absurdly in caling her the catholick that is the vniversal church None of all these can you make any proof of you referr in the margin to S. 123. and let men look what proof they can find there I for the present referr you and all to your own Cardinal Baronius testimonie of your holy church as he found it in his ancient records and put it in his Chronicles thus What was then the face of the holy Roman church how filthy was it when most mighty and eke most filthy whores ruled at Rome at whose pleasure seats were changed Bishops were given which is horrible and vile to heare false-Popes their paramours were intruded into Peters seat c. Loe here the bewty of that Catholick church whose sentence you say is the indeficient rule of your faith You are glad that I refuse the name Catholik and I am glad of and content me with that ancient name of a Christian given of God Act. 11 26 keep you your new fangled name of your own divising to be called a catholik that is an Universal I envie you not You are very angrie that I proved unto you the marks of your Roman church by the word of God which you had set down without proof You had cause rather to be thankfull But now the reader may see how having nothing soundly to reply you wilfully persist in your error for which I am sory Your reproches I bear with patience Leaving your former reasons helpless you conclude with a coÌ„mon argumeÌ„t for your church religioÌ„ That seing your faith is coÌ„fessed to be so ancient if it be not froÌ„ God it must be grounded on carnal motives viz the profit of the spiritual or the temporall But it is not you say for the profit or pleasure of the clergie as appeares by their cha â—â—ity vowes fasting praying c. Nor of temporal Princes for how should so many Emperors Kings c. be brought to confess their syns fast c. I answer first your religioÌ„ in som points of it is ancient I coÌ„fess eveÌ„ as ancienâ— as the Apostles daies vvhen the mystery of iniquity begaÌ„ to work 2. Thes. 2. 7. men loved preeminence 3. Iohn 9. many Antichrists vvent abroad 1 Ioh. 2. 18. vvhich vvere foretunners of the great Antichrist folowing Who vvas to be reveled vvhen he that theÌ„ letted viz. the heathen Empire vvas taken out of the vvay 2. Thes. 2. 7. 8. But yet the truth of the Gospel preached by the Apostles vvas more ancient 1 Ioh. 2. 24. which therefore is to be our rule and stay not humane doctrines that came up after Secondly I answer the ambition profit and pleasure of the Bishops and Preists vvere the motives unto this height of evil For histories record the contentions that vvere in churches and among Bishops especially of Rome and of Constantinople vvho should be greatest This made P. Gregory to say the King of pride is at haud and quod dici quoque nefas est an arwie of Preists is ready for him I wish you vvould beleeve this Popes tradition here As for Profits and pleasures vvho seeth not that Christ and his Apostles being poor and Peter himself having neyther silver nor gold to give a needy man Act. 3. 6. Your clergy have gotten such patrimonies falsly purloyned in S. Peters name as they are of the richest in the vvorld their treasures infinite their palaces like Kings their apparel prince like their Kitchins ful of the finest fare the plesantest fertilest lands in all countries being ingrossed for the clergie for church livings Their doctrines of Purgatory and pardons being onely to pick mens purfes Their vowes of chastitie being to desile themselves in filthy Sodonne adulterie and fornication vvitness the 6000. childrens heads that vvere found murdered in P. Gregories fishpond which moved him to reverse his own wicked decree that restreyned the Clergie froÌ„ their wives besides infinite other testimonies of these evils in other places Their fasting being a mere mockery to absteyn superstitiously
should blush but lyes hid in silence First you gather a consequence which here I strowed not I spake of God and of his verdict and authoritie not of the scriptures as yet For whither it be by writing or by speaking or any other way that God manifesteth his will unto us it is to me all one and the authority of the scripture is a second point Thus your answer is not here to the purpose Your reason annexed is a fallacie concluding from a part against the whole unequally The scriptures cited speak of Gods commands in generall you take one in particular and because one is not all therfore all must not be all but more then all must be observed which what they wil be I cannot tel unlesse the commandements of men Mat. 15. 9. 2. You answer that all additions whatsoever are not here prohibited but onely such as ar contrary to the word of God for many other prophets as the penmen of the holy Ghost did add divers pea most part of the holy scriptures c. In deed this answer is your own none of Gods you shew no tittle of his word for that you speak But I will shew you the contrary Prov. 30 ◠Adde not unto his words least he reprehend thee and thou be a lyar Lo here all additions and not onely things contrary are forbidden Againe though it be but a mans testament sayth our Apostle when it is confirmed no man dooth abrogate it or addeth therto If you add to your naturall fathers testament civill lawes would count you an unnaturall son your distinction would not help yow much lesse can it help yow for doing such wrong to the will of our father which is in heaven Your reason is direct against yow for the Prophets being penmen of the holy ghost added nothing of their own the additions were Gods own If the Prophets Apostles mought add nothing of themselves much lesse may we Thus God yet reigneth alone And if yow vvould have mans oil to lighten your lamp hear what Chrisostom sayth for this point Every Doctor is a servāt of the law for neyther may he add unto the law any thing of his own sense neyther may he withdraw any thing according to his own understanding but preach that onely which is found in the law Whereas yow add that your traditions are also from the holy ghost for Luk. 10. it is sayd he that heareth yow heareth me and Mat. 18. If he hear not the church let him be to thee as an ethnik and a publican First these are spoken to all Christs ministers of al his churches and therefore make no more for Rome then for Corinth or Ephesus But yow stil keep from the point yeild the cause unawares For be it tradition definition or whatsoever by whomsoever if it be Gods not mans it is yenough al that I would prove in this first particular After it shal be scanned whither your traditions be of God or no. Wheras therfore in answering my secōd agrument yow wonder how I should be so deceived as to think the places that I cite make for me and against yow yow may wonder rather at your own mistakeing that I say no more who when I plead for God onely his alsufficiency by opposing as the scripture teacheth mans corruption folly yow will not yeild though yow have nothing to contradict And even thus yow turn over the 3. 4. reason by denying them to prove that thing which I there did not cite them for Such oversight hereafter I hope yow will amend that yow weary not both me your reader Now to your former ansvver which was with a distinctiō in this plain point whither God onely or some other should be judge lawgiver to his people for their religion controversies therabout the same distinction yow urge here agayn which whither it be a meet distinct answer or argues not rather fear let the prudent judge For yow yeild not plainly to the thing by me propounded which neyther religion nor reason vvould stick at onely atheisme vvil deny For if ther be a God he of man to be served man knovves not the things of God til by himself they be reveled neyther may doe more or lesse then by the Lord is cōmaunded as I have before proved hereupon it vvil folovv undenyably that in al doubts controversies of religion Gods voice verdict must decide vvhat is truth and vvhat pleaseth him Whither he show it by himself from heaven by Angels or by churches or by particular men by writing or by speaking it is ought to be all one to us But the more to convince yovv yovv shal have humane testimonie as of Ambrose vvho sayth The mysterie of heaven let God himself teach me which made heaven not man which knew not himself Whom should I rather beleev concerning God then God himself Or if yow be not moved by this Fathers judgment the hethen shal rise up and condemn yow vvho esteemed true lavv apt to command and to forbid to be the right reason of the great God that the divine mind to be the cheiflavv Cicero de Legib. lib. 2. The second point novv is Wher this verdict of God is to be found whither in the scriptures of the old and new Testamēt as I beleev or in the writings and mouthes of other men To this I had not before neyther yet have your dir 〈◊〉 answer What makes yow shun the light herein is easy to discern To confirm my faith that the verdict and wil of God is to be foūd in holy writt I alledged divine testimonies many to them yow answer not one word neyther yet doo yow yeild to the truth Beware yow wink not vvith your eyes that yow may not see But seeing the holy scriptures move yow not yow shal have candle light to see the sun shine C. Bellarmine to whom yow referr me twise in your last writing to whose learning yow acknowledge yourself a scholar ingeniously cōfesseth saying Neq n distputari potest c. Ther can be no disputing sayth he except we and our adversaries first doo agree in some cōmune principle now we al hereticks agree in this that the word of God is the rule of faith wherby men are to judge of points of doctrine is a commune principle granted of al men from whence arguments may be drawen is the spiritual sword which in this battel may not be refused Behold here the first point plainly yeilded by your champion vvhich you vvithout dark distinction could not be drawn unto The second concerning the scriptures is in effect also yeilded when he sayth That the Prophetical and Apostolical book◠according to the catholik churches mind explaned both by the 3. council of Carthage c. 47. and late council of Trent sess 4. is the true word of God and the certayn and stable rule of faith
would I have you â—o grant for Christ himself is the principal vea the onely foundatioÌ„ properly all the Apostles are foundations figuratively among whom was order first second third c and excellencie in graces but not preeminence of auctoritie for they were all sent of Christ as Christ of the Father Ioh. 20. 21 and the church of Christ is builded upon them all not upon Peter onely Ephes. 2. 20. S. Peters headship you say derogates not from Christ Jesus our head since S. Peter is but subordinated to Christ Jesus and onely of his free institution That institution say I is yet to shew wherby Peter should be head more then the other Apostles The headship which you giue unto Peter dooth derogate from Christ for as the church is but one body and hath but one spirit so hath it but one Lord head Christ who is present with his Church all dayes till the worlds end walking amids the golden candlestiks of his Churches that there needs no universal Vicar but onely the Angels of every particular church as the 7. churches in Asia shew Apoc. 2. 3. But he was a head of your church and therfore I trow could not lye which sayd that Christ placed Peter as it were a certayn head to powr his gifts from him as it were into all the body for having taken him into the fellowship of the indivisible vnitie he would have him named that which himself was And elsewhere the same Pope preacheth that if God would have any thing to be commune unto other Princes with Peter he never gave but by him whatsoever he gave to others Thus rored the Lion of Rome against the Lion of the tribe of Iudah What marvel was it then though an other of your Popes praying to S. Peter as to his God sayd Jurline thine ears o blessed Peter prince of th'Apostles and hear me thy servant c. acknowledging further his faith to be in him If these things derogate not from Christ our head I know not what can doo It is no marvel though one of your Canonists called him Our Lord God the Pope for the Pope is Peter as Father Campian telleth us and Peter as Leo sayth is assumed into the fellowship of the indivisible vnitie that is of God and therfore is made a God and prayed unto as a God and yet you would bear men in hand nothing is derogated froÌ„ God or Christ. Yea your self in your former writing made him the vniversal pastor Ioh. 10 and he I am sure is God for he is one with the Father And if Peter was but subordinate as you say to Christ your Popes I trow be now superordinate for Christs kingdom was not of this world neyther did his servants fight he was no Judge or divider of inheritances but Popes are fighters with the tâ—poral sword and have their kingdome of this world as politik princes and divide not onely private mens inheritances but even whole kingdoms deposing Princes disturbing States as the world hath long felt with greef From Peters primacie you slide along to the Popes supremacie for which having no word of God nor any so ancient testimonie as the Apostles you flee to the name of the council of Nice where some say the foundation began But against such innovation when or whersoever it was hatched I allege the whole new testament of Christ where Angels and Bishops of Churches are found of equal auctoritie not one above an other And me thinks I could fetch your popes supremacie from more ancient ground then the council of Nice even from Dioâ—rephes who loved preeminence in the Apostles time But this ground is slabby and the Pope I know wil be loth to set his foot on it You proceed therfore with a generall reason thus The ecclesiastical hierarchie is no worse governed then any temporal regiment For it is compared to a kingdome governed by one King Mat 25 to a familie wel governed Heb. 3. to a camp wel ordered Caâ—t 6. But in al wel ordered common weales there is ever required some visible iudge besides the written law since there must be a supreme iudge to take notice of controversies when they arise aâ— 2. there must be one to explicate the sense of the law and to pronounce sentence c. and 3. there must be one to compell those that refuse to the due observation thereof Now in the church there arise like difficulties in her lawes explication c. Therfore S Peters successor indued by the holy ghost in all difficulties of moment is to be sought unto for counsell is to be heard with obedience when he counselleth is to be obeyed when he proceeds with his powrful jurisdiction This your reason is faultie from head to foot The first part faileth in comparing togither a visible humane politie and a visible hierarchie Wheras humane polities concerning worldly matters are merely visible earthly temporal but ecclesiastical polities are partly invisible heavenly and eternal Those respecting this world and life onely have worldly dominion and glorie these respecting chiefly the next world life have no worldly dominion or glorie but is for the meek poor persecuted for righteousnes sake c. Mat. 5. My kingdome sayth Christ is not of this world Ioh. 18. 36. Again the rulers of the gentils have domination over them they that are great exercise auctoritie over them but it shal not be so among you c. Mat. 20 25 26. These things being thus minded distinguished I grant that the church is no worse governed considering the nature thereof then any temporall regiment considering the nature of it Secondly you fail in applying to your Pope the scriptures intended of Christ onely For he not the Vicar of Rome is the King of that one kingdom Mat. 25. he is the master of that one familie Heb. 3 1 6. he is the Captayn of that ordered camp Cant. 6. Apoc. 19. 11. 13 14 16 c. So that he that challengeth these titles and honours besides Christ is Antichrist To the second part of your reason I answer 1. that in wel ordered coÌ„mon weales the lawes are above the magistrates according to Tullies saying as lawes are above the magistrates so magistrates are above the people What good order may we then think is in the papacie where Popes are above Gods lavv 2. That for explicating the sense of the law c. in wel ordered common weales it is a ruled case that he who made the law should interpret the law According hereunto in the church the lawes given of God in the scriptures are aboue the Pastors that govern the people by them yea above Kings Gods spirit which gave those lawes is the supreme interpreter of them As for outward order in difficulties the Preists lips should preserve knowledge and the people should seek the law
you this but the contrary for Christ being present and vvalking vvith his churches needeth no vicar And this title head God in his vvord giveth onely to Christ Col. 1. 18. Yet you leaving Gods vvord fly to your S. Basil for succor that all men may see your church and prelacy is built on the sands of mens traditions not on the Rock of divine oracles You vvill not from it but Peter signifies a rock vvhich I have disproved and shewed that Petros of Petra the Rock and Cephas of Ceph is no more then to be a Christian of Christ. Peter vvas a principal stone yea the first if you vvill layd upon Christ the chief corner stone the Rock all Christians are living stones layd on him also Your racked allegations from Augustine and other Doctors I vvil not spend time to confute for I build my religion vpon the Rock Christ not upon men Your reason vvhy the gender vvas not changed in Christs name as in Peters is for that all vvhich admitted of his doctrine vvould not deny him to be head of the church I see you love to say somwhat unto every thing I also may say all vvhich admitt of the Popes doctrine vvill not deny Peter to be head of the church so by your argument there was no need to change the gender for him neyther And so the scripture hath doon somthing needless or els your answer is fruitless How you save Optatus credit and your self from blame for falsely interpreting Cephas a head contrary to the holy Ghost Ioh. 1. 43. vvho interpreteth it a stone I leave it for the learned to judge Your exception that Peter vvas not elected to be the mouth of the rest vvas refelled in my former vvriting if you vvould rest for Thomas Philip Iude vvere not elected any more then Peter to speak for the other disciples Ioh. 14. 5. 8. 22. yet you vvill not have them heads So your distination of the Apostles equallity in power of order not of jurisdiction is a bare repetition of a thing never proved but before refuted And where you add equall as they were Apostles but not as they were Bishops it is mere trifling you might as vvell say equal as they were men but not as they vvere living creatures For they vvere no otherweise Bishops then as they were Apostles And in Act. 1. you may see that Iudas his Episcopee or Bishops office vvas no other then his Apostolee or Apostles office Act. 1. v. 20. compared vvith v. 17. 25. 26. Besides by 1. Cor. 12. 28. and Ephe. 4. 11. you may see the Apostles were by office the first in the church that if the other were equal vvith Peter in the Apostleship as you graunt they vvere equal also in al power that if you resist any longer you vvill be condemned of your self Your succession grounded but vpon mens report I allow not of for you build on boggs Your understanding of that admonition Rom. 11. 20. 22. c. is partly true and against your self in that you vvrote before S. 162. partly it is frivolous vvhiles you dream of more previlege to the See of Roome and Bishop there then to others churches and Bishops You have no colour for this in the testament of Christ yet is it the mayn thing that yow should prove if it were possible No citie in the world remayneth so execrable by Gods word as Rome for killing Christ of old by her power and pollicie and for being Antichrists throne Rev. 17. and 18. It is worth the noting that you doo not hold the Pope is necessarily indued with Gods holy grace And that in matters of fact he maysyn you say as well as any other Your Popes facts I am sure prove this if any shoud have the face to deny it Hereupon I inferr that your Popes are not members and so not possibly heads of the catholik church of God It is high blasphemy to say the head of that church may want Gods holy grace Colos. 1 18. c. 2 19. How now doo you know that the traditions and definitions of your graceless Popes are of God If you trie them not by the scriptures which you dare not because of the private spirit they may deceive and damne your soul as well as any other men You say you hold a necessary assistance which the Pope hath of the holy Ghost as he defines ex cathedra And upon what ground hold you this You find in Gods book no mention eyther of your Pope or of his Chayr for good The Apostle Peter directeth us to that vvhich holy men of God spake not to that vvith Satans slaves doo teach such as vvas P. Silvester the 2. of vvhom Cardinal Benno vvriteth that he came up out of the abyss or bottomless deep o◠divine permission And by the same answers of the Divils vvherby he had deceived many he vvas also deceived himself vvas intercepted vvith suddayn death by the judgment of God And yet vvil you trust such a miscreant that out of his chayr he vvill tel you none but divine oracles Never vvas there such a thing known since the beginning of the vvorld that a graceless reprobate should have necessarily the assistance of the holy Ghost so often as he sits him down on his chayr to define or determine the matters of God No religion on earth to my knowledge ever admitted such an unreasonable doctrine for vvhich you have no proof unless from the Popes own ungracious spirit vvhereby he exalteth himself against all that is caled God 2. Thes. 2 4. Notvvithstanding you labour to justify your S. Leo that sayd the head meaning I trow your ministeriall head at Rome infuseth grace to the whole church that God took S. Peter into the fellowship of the individual vnity And doe you in earnest beleev these things of your reprobate Popes as of S. Silvester the 2. of that Divil incarnate S. Iohn the 22. their like I perceive it is not vvithout cause that the scarlet coloured beast is sayd to be full of the names of blasphemie And here you say I see your religiō is no upstart religiō that so many yeres agoe was mainteyned Yes upstart it is but many yeres agoe I grant for the mysterie of iniquity did vvork evē vvhiles Paul lived 2 Thes. 2. 7. he told how after his departure greivous wolves should enter not sparing the flock under the name of wolves comprehending it may be Lions also and all other salvage beasts Wherefore Antichrist is an old man though you mistake as if he were yet scarse in his cradle 2. You helpe S. Leo as meaning that vvhich S. Peter sayd of such as should be partakers of the godly nature I answer first this is a very friendly interpretation that the fellowship of the individual unity should be but participation of the godly nature which al Christiās are partakers of A man may
THE TRYING OVT OF THE TRVTH BEGVNN AND PROSEQVVTED IN CERTAYN Letters or Passages between Iohn Aynsworth and Henry Aynsworth the one pleading for the other against the present religion of the Church of Rome The chief things here handled are 1. Of Gods word and scriptures whither they be a sufficient rule of our faith 2. Of the Scriptures expounded by the Church and of unwritten traditions 3. Of the Church of Rome whither it be the true Catholike Church and her sentence to be received as the certayn truth Published for the good of others by E. P. in the yeare 1615. E. P. to the Christian reader CHristian reader I having had some interest in the conveyance of the passages here following and with the coÌ„sent of both the writers taken knowledge of the matter in controversie was moved and did resolve to publish it to the view of others Considering that the subiect and question handled is very profitable and the truth therein necessary to be knowen And whereas the controverters are so different in iudgment and yet both of them for conscience sake suffer afflictioÌ„ being separated froÌ„ the Ch of Engl the one to the practise of a Romane Catholik the other to a way thereunto most opposite and both of them being leaders men of note in their so much different religions it may move a desire to see the thing further prosecuted between them and provoke a going forward where the stay is I have without prejudice but not as I hope without the good liking of both parties who ech of them seemed unto me very willing that any should read their writings put forth these things hoping that some benefit may come to the readers hereby whom I wish all of them to follow the Apostles counsel to try the spirits whether they be of God His grace be with us all to guide us in the truth Amen E. P. The occasion and beginning of the passages following MR. Iohn Aynsworth whiles he was prisoner in London had conference with some other prisoners that differed in religion from him about the right way of mans justification before God c which things he after answered in writing also with this challenge at the end Let who will answer it I could wish for name sake Mr Henry Aynsworth might see it If any answer it let him set to his name as I set down mine to stand to all and then I will deal with him Iohn Aynsworth This writing was as he wished sent to the party by him nominated who upon the receipt thereof wrote as foloweth To Mr Iohn Aynsworth prisoner in London Mercy from God our Father and the Lord Iesus Christ our hope MR Aynsworth I received a writing under your hand and name touching some controversie in religioÌ„ you defeÌ„ding the faith of the church of Rome that now is against such as haue forsaken her for departing from the ancient faith of the church that was in Rome when Paul wrote thereunto among whom we are the witnesses of Iesus Christ. You provoke in the end who will to answer your writing but wish for names sake my self mought see it promising if any answer it affixing his name you then will deal with him Though I have at this tyme other opposites to answer and affayres important lying upon me yet vvould I not altogither let passe this occasion offred by your self whom for nation and name I knovv not vvhither also for neerer alliance I regard as is meet greeving for your estate who are in captivity not so much in body as in soul from vvhich if I could procure your release I should be glad The vvay to doe you good or any that is in like error I take to be this that vve begin at the root and ground vvork of our religions in vvhich if vve can accord there vvilâ—e more hope of other things As first hovv our differences shal be tried and composed vvhether by the verdict of God or of man If of God as I hold then vvhere this is to be found vvhâ—ther in the scriptures of the old and nevv testament or in the vvritings and mouthes of other men If in holy scriptures vvhich is my faith then commeth to be considered vvhat they are and hovv to be used My self doe imbrace the vvritings of all the Prophets novv extant from Moses to Malâ—chie vvho vvrote all in Hebrue the Chaldee in Ezra and Daniel counted therevvith of all the Apostles and Evangelists vvhich vvrote in Greek as is novv generally received By all and every of these I offer my faith to be tried and to make tâ—yall of other faith offred The use of these to be vvith all care and reverence sobriety sanctitie and vvisdome ministred by the holy Ghost And here may be questioned in vvhom the faith of a ChristiaÌ„ should rest vvhither on the Churches sentence vvithout doubt or contradiction or vvhither he should also have assurance in his owne hart by Gods vvord and spirit If the Church be our stay then are vve to inquire vvhere and vvhich it is and so to consider the doctrines that it teacheth Among vvhich this is one principal vvhich you treat of in your vvriting hovv our synns shal be forgiven and vve justified in the sight of God Thus may vve proceed in order if you please to begin vvith these grounds I am vvilling as my leysure shal serve me not only to hear vvhat you can say for your religioÌ„ but also to inform you vvhere I see you err If you like not thus to deal but vvill insist on the question in hand I shall not be unvvilling to defeÌ„d my Saviours suffrings as alsufficient for my salvation and of all that trust in him That vvhich shal be prosecuted betvveen us if ought be I desire may be doon in love and meeknes in simplicitie and sincerity vvith brevity and perspicuitie all vvhich I shall labour for through the grace of God and exhort you to doe the like Othervveise from fruitlesse quarrels I shall furcease folovv more comfortable meditations Thus vvish I your farevvell in soule and body From Amsterdam this 4. of September 1609. Your freind to use in all Christian dutie Henry Ainsworth Vnto this letter Mr Iohn Aynsworth returned this answer I Accept with all willingnes Mr Aynsworth of your ready offer viz. that we should draw our disputations and controversies to a maine and principall point and foundation of our religion For as in the spiritual building faith is a foundation and main pillar so also in the mysteries and principalls of our faith there be some that as it were transcend through the whole body of controversies and serve therein as Maister-springes by whose motion and proof all things rest sufficiently satisfyed and proved to any indifferent judgement Amongst others this question by you propounded hath no meane place For if I square out all the beleife I mainteyn onely by approved and vnfallible rule my affertioÌ„s must needs be as
as the holy fathers interpret is made by a private Spirit interpretation Thirdly I argue and by my argument I break the force of a pretended answer thus Not onely scriptures by themselves are not sufficient to prove what is Canonicall and what is not but also that scriptures helped by private mens interpretation are not sufficient to prove the same For they doe not onely allow of private learned mens interpretation but the poorest handycrafts man or the sillpest huswife that is they doc allow to interpret the hardest places of scripture to shoulder the vniforme consent of all the fathers Doctors and schoolemen with some fond toyes of their owne braine and invention yea to give their glosse of those places of S. Paul where he speakes of justification and predestination whereas they should â—â—y Oh altit ido sapientiae et scientiae Dei quaÌ„ incoÌ„prehensibilia sunt judicia ejus â— When as they should rather rely on the auncient Fathers exposition S. Hierome in his old yeares went as farre as Alâ—randria to heare Didimus S. Hier. ad Paul Epist 103. c. 5. 67. vsed such hard discipline retirement into the desert abstineÌ„ce for obteyâ—ing the tâ—ue interpretation of the holy scripture How should we beleeve each private handycrafts manns censure and his silly interpretation against the vniforme consent of the holy Fathers against the streâ—me of the learned of all ages But admit they should have iâ— warâ—ly that speaking spirit to satisfy themselves how should a man be perswaded they it to be a lanterne unto others stepps Nay how will they prove against their adversaries that they also have not that motion of the spirit and though we should graunt they be illuminated in the truth of oneâ—â—ysterie how shall we know with like certainty all other different mysteries But you will answer out of the 1. Cor. 2. Spiritualis autem homo judicat omnia ipse autem a neminejudicatur a spirituall man judgeth all things and he is judged of none To which I answer admit that a spirituall man knoweth something yet it doth not follow that his supernaturall insâ—â—â—â—ts extendeth it self to all things but onely to the knowledge of those for the obteyning of which that illumination was inspired For Deliseus that had a redoubled spirit of Elias sayth Domiâ—â— celavit hoc a me et non indicavit mihi Our Lord did hide this from me and did not shew it why then may not these simple soules rather feare that their private spirits defect in the declaration of some mysteries rather then the redoubled Prophet confesse â—â—s ignorance in some things Yet let us graunt that some few men should fully comprehend and penetrate the mysteries of our beleefe yet for a twofold reason we denâ— to give unto them a definitive sentence and censure of matters of faith First in that we are not so certified who these particular men be that have these especiall illuminations and illustrations and therefore we are to preferr the definitive assertion of the Popes holynesse and his counsell before uncertainty of mens inventions 2. Since that the effects of this particular illumination and assistance of the Holy Ghost is not manifested and warranted by any extraordinary workes or miracles or the like in the it were to make a desperate tender of Gods truth to point this or that man whole vinpâ—ore of any controversy in that many other men in the pretence of some few mens illuminatioÌ„s might challenge unto theÌ„selves the like prerogatives of interpretation Fourthly I argue that which by the â—ights and lanterns of your 〈◊〉 have ben wroÌ„ged in the highest degree to bolster vp heresies cannot be a true and indeficient rule of faith For what more frequeÌ„t with â—eretickes then at their fingers ends to â—ite places of scripture to back their heresies as the Arians Pelagians Luther aÌ„s and Sacramentaries The Lutherans and Calvinists both disagreeing in a maine point of the real presence the one holding Christs pretious havy and blood to be really and corporall in the Sacrament though with a certayn companation and the other holding Christ to be present with a signification onely and yet both cite scripture both of theÌ„ yet â—â—â—ing scripture for scripture John Knell of Kent led with this private spirit denyed Christ to have tooken flesh of our B. Lady William Cowbridge sayes Bishops have no more authority then Priests pag. â—70 and yet by and by ledâ— vp the selfe same spirit sayd that Christs name was a filthy name Alanus Copus Dialog 6 c. 17. John Mesel denyed the holy Ghost to proceed from the Father pag. 1151. Frith the excellent Martyr of John For pag. 942 943 944 affirmeth the reall presence to be no Article of beleefe affirmative or negative John of Teurbury that the Iewes of good zeale did put Christ to death pag. 9â—5 Fiftly and lastly Iargue many mysteries of our faith are beleeved that are not 〈◊〉 declared in the word of God nor so infalliblie prescinding from all traditions of the catholike church deduced thence so that they are sufficient to make one beleeve that witâ— so firme an act as our faith requireth therefore that which makes those mysteries worthy of constaÌ„t beleefe is a rule of faith as wel as the written word whither they be traditions Divine or Apostolicall My antecedent may castly without all just contradiction be proued in that till Moses the virtuous steps and perfect acts of Noe Abraham Melchisedech was guided without the helpe of any written word by the hand of tradition derived from mouth to mouth from man to man yea after the witteÌ„ word it appeares by Erod 14. Narrabis filio tuo in illa die dicens hoc est quod fecit Dominus c Deut. 32. Interroga patrem tuum et annuntiabit tibi majores et dicent tibi Iob. 8. Interroga generationem pristinam et diligenter investiga memoriam patrum And not onely they of the old law but also they of the newe even after the coÌ„ming of our Saviour were without a written word the Apostles and disciples being busied in preaching and instructing viva voce Besides many things we beleeve though we have not the warrant of a written word for it viz. that there was a remedie for women children as well as for men to purge them of originall sin and something to be used to men children if they were ready to â—y before the 8. day which was the prefixt time of circumcision and that such a parcell of writing was scripture and such not Moreover wee beleeve constantly against the condemned heresy of Delvidius yea and against as it were the seeming letter of the scripture where it is sayd that Joseph knew not our blessed Lady til she brought forth her first sonne Now every one knowes the phrase of the Hebrue word know as Abraham knew Sara and yet we fâ—â—â—nly beleeve according to the prescript of the church that she was a perpetual Oirgin ante partum in
the Israelites discerned canonical scriptures from others so doo we for we Gentiles are coheyrs with them and of the same body for there is one body and one spirit as there is one Lord and one faith But they relyed not on the Church or on the Highpreist his council for had they so doon their church must haue had privilege not to err as you think of yours which if you grant a Iew he wil overthrow your beleef in Christ seing their Preists Elders people condemned Christ his Apostles and their writings As you would answer a Pharisee for this point so mind the like answer to your self Finally your plea is overthrown confounded by your own practise for you will have us receive the scriptures for canonical because your Church of Rome sayth so they are we must beleeve upon her word Tobie and Iudith to be canonical but the third and fourth of Esdras not the first and second of the Machabees to be canonical but not the third or fourth If any make question of this for conscience sake you seek to resolve him by the definitive sentence of the Pope who cannot err But if he ask why the Pope of Rome may not err aswel as the Patriarch of Constantinople you then allege as after to me in this your letter Christs promise to Peter Mat. 16 and there you scan every word and presse every circumstance of the text to make him beleeve that Peter was the Rock and head of the Church and consequently the Popes his successors Ask he you againe how he shall know that Matthewes gospel wherin this promise is written is canonical rather then Nicodemus gospel you will answer because the Pope hath so determined Thus the very entrance and ground of your religion bringeth men into a maze and Labyrinth for we must beleeve the Pope cannot err because Christ sayth such words to Peter which the Pope expoundeth and applyeth to himself we must beleeve that Christ sayd them words because the Pope hath determined that he sayd them Thus the foundation of our faith must rely wholly upon man a clod of clay whatsoever he telleth us is scripture that must we so esteme how ever he expound scripture so must we take it what he sayth is tradition or Gods unwritten word we must so regard and keep it be it never so absurd against the light of nature against reason against the grounds of faith against the evident testimonies of the prophets and Apostles we must captivate all our understanding faith and conscience under the Popes wisdome and all because he telleth us we must so doo Otherweise if we may trie this principle of yours by the scripture through the light of Gods spirit in us then may we doe the like of other which be of lesser moment Consider I pray you this first point seriously and the Lord give you understanding in all things And let me here put you in mind though I be not yet come to the end of the last motive in your letter where you tell me how wheÌ„ you shal be demanded at the tribunal of almighty God why you beleeve in the Roman catholik church you can answer by reason Christ himself teacheth you so saying He that heareth you heareth me c. But deceive not your own soul for when Christ shall ask you at that day why you have worshiped images sung masse and Dirige prayed to Saints and soules departed and transgressed many other of his fathers coÌ„mandements by your traditions you will answer because the head of your church the Pope did teach you so when he shall ask you how you knew the Pope to be head of the church and to haue such authoritie over your conscience you will answer because Christ himself spake such words to Peter as are written Mat. 16. When he ask you agayn how you knew that he spake those words or that they extended to the Pope of Rome above all other your answer vvil be according to the grounds of your religion because the Pope himself vvith his senate of Cardinals did tel you so Then vvil your hope be the vveb of a spider and your house novv seeming upon the Rock vvil be found upon the sand you shall hear the Curse pronounced upon the man that trusted in man and made flesh his arm and vvithdreâ—v his hart from the Lord and that all such vvorshiped him in vain as had their fear tovvard him taught by the precept of men The Rock of my hart vvho is my portion for ever preserve me and deliver you from those syrtes and quicksands vvhere men make ship-vvrack of faith Your second argument to prove that the bare naked vvord of God cannot be an infallible rule or square of truth is this That which is difficult and includeth many fenses at least to the ignorant cannot be a certaine rule of faith But the scriptures are thus Your antecedent you seek to confirm by Luther Teâ—tullian and S. Peter also vvho as you vvrite sayth that in S. Pauls epistles ther be many things hard to be understood which the vnlearned and unstable deprave as all the rest of the scriptures to their own perdition To this of the Apostle I answer first you set the holy text on the centers to stretch it out for your usâ— The Apostle sayth some things are hard to be understood you vvould haue him say many things he sayth they deprave these as the rest of the scriptures you say as all the rest Secondly this testimonie though it vvere as large as you extend it proves not your antecedent but onely the first part of it and scarce that too For to gather because part is difficult therfore the vvhole is is more then eyther his vvords or good reason vvil bear The later part that the scripture caÌ„not be a certayn rule of faith follovveth not upon the former it may be a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 though some part of it be difficult though many men doo deprave it Our ignorance or perversnes cannot make crooked that vvhich is most streight no more then our unfaithfulnes can make the faith of God of none effect The artizen that vvorketh by rule and squire maâ— through vvant of skil or heed vvork amysse but himself is to blame and not his rule Againe though some scriptures be difficult yet many be plaine and easy and God hath so tempered them togither that the vvisest should haue vvherin to exercise their vvit and admire Gods mysterios and the simplest should haue playne documents vvherby to grouÌ„d their faith It is our fathers vvil also that to some his vvord should be in parables that hearing men may hear and not understand vvhen to others it is given to knovv the secrets of the kingdom of God vvho hath vvritten his vvord to give unto the simple sharpnes of vvitt to the child knovvledge and discretion Again you allege the Eunuch Act. 8. vvho confesseth that he could
you to keep the foundation of the Apostles Prophets on which Christs church is builded then to build upon the boâ—â—s of after writers To conclude thâ—â—fore this point Christ sendeth us to serch the scriptures his Apostles doo the like the Prophets before spake also to like effect this counsel by Gods grace I shall folow 〈◊〉 these I wil exercise my self not doubting but I have chosen the better part which shall not be taken from me And unto you that â—…zelous for the traditions of your fathers I shew the counsel of the holâ— Châ—st walk not in the ordinances of your fathers transgresâ—e not the coÌ„maÌ„dements of God by your traditions and presume not above that which is written The second thing you take upon you to prove is That the Popes definitive sentence as he is head of the Church is an indeficient rule in matters of faith This position if you well understood it I would not strive against for the definitive sentence of that Papa or Father that is head of the church is I confesse such an indeficient rule But the Vicar of Rome is not this Pope it is Christ himself that is Father of eternitie and he is the head of his body the church and he hath forbidden us to call any man our Pope or Father upon the earth for thâ—r is but one our Father which is in heaven Mat. 23 9. But you understand it of an earthly Pope and head and would confirm it by this scripture Luk. 22 31. Simon Simon loe Satan hath desired you to winnow you as wheat c. but I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not Here first I observe how you labour to confirm the Popes definitive power by the scriptures so that which before you pleaded against as an insufficient grouÌ„d now here you make a ground of grounds and so you are contrary to your self For before you taught me to beleeve this is Gods word because the Pope saith so here you will have me beleeve your Popes sentence to be a rule of faith because the scripture sayth something which you imagine makes for him Thus you would lead me as in a round and I cannot tel what you make the rock of your faith But I wil folow your argument Christ prayed for Simon that his faith upon Satans sifting mought not fayl I grant it neyther did it fayl though he fel greevously Yet this grace made not Simon Pope or Head of the church for it is a grace coÌ„mon to all the elect members of the bodie whom though Satan sifteth and they be often foyled yet rise they again by beleef in God and though their faith often fainteth yet it never faileth or is consumed And this by vertue of Christs prayer or mediation 1. Ioh. â— 1. 2. for Gods gracious gifts are without repentance and Christ giveth all his sheep eternall life and they shall never perish neyther shall any pluck them out of his hand You procede and say that this prayer was consequently for his successors If you mean successors in his office I know not who they be neyther shew you the Popes to be the men If you mean successors in his faith I grant it as before For Peter had the faith of Gods elect as true justifying faith is caled in which faith whosoever succeed or come after him as also they that then lived in like faith with him they were are and shal be by Christs mediation confirmed that their faith which is their life fayl not For example Christ chose 12. Apostles and one of them was a Divil Iscariot who was the Divil fell into syn and Christ prayed not for him so his faith fayled though he coÌ„fessed his syn and he dyed in dispeir hanging himself for he was the Son of losse or perdition and therfore was to be lost that the scripture mought be fulfilled Iohn 17. 12. Simon Cephas fell also into syn above the other ten but he was one of Christs sheep no child of perdition therfore he kept him from being lost praying that his faith mought not fayl And as for him for the rest at an other time he prayed to his father to keep them in his name and not for them alone but for those also which shall beleev in him through their word Wherfore Christ prayed not onely for SimoÌ„ but for all the Saincts though speciall need and use was for him at that time yet as Paul sayth of Abrahams justification it is not written for him onely but also for us so say I of Simons confirmation by the prayer of Christ for whatsoever is written is written for our learning RoÌ„ 15. 4. But you prosequute your argument thus that S. Peter was bidden coÌ„firm his brethren but onely S. Peter and not the church in generall hath brethren Wherupon you would have me gather that this was his special privilege and no mans ells save his successors in the headship Your assumption I withstand as a fallacie proving Peters popedome for confirming his brethren no better then as if you should reason thus Paul sayd to Barnabas let us return and visit our brethren in every citie c. but onely Paul and Barnabas not the church in general have brethreÌ„ therfore onely Paul and Barnabas are Popes of the catholik church and visiters of the same they and their successors If this be not a good reason to prove a supremacie of visitation the other is no better to prove a supremacie of Confirmation For the church in generall is a brotherhood as the Apostle Peter himself calleth it and of this brotherhood Peter was one Paul an other Iohn an other and so the rest not onely the Apostles but all beleevers Wherfore as Simon had brethren so hath every Christian and all are brethren ech to other and all brethren unto Christ. And Peter as he was a joynt elder with the other elders so was he also a joynt brother with the other brethreÌ„ or els he was none of Christs And as for confirming his brethren it is farr from proving a popedome for Paul an other Apostle confirmed his brethren and Timothee an Evangelist did the like and Iudas and Silas being Prophets did the same and all the Angels or ministers of churches are taught of Christ to doo likeweise Wherfore Simons coÌ„mission to confirm his brethren made him not Pope and consequently neyther his supposed successors But you presse the circumstances that our Saviour points out one particular man saying Simon Simon and after having spoken of al particularizeth the speech agayn saying for thee thy faith thy brethren c. I answer there was cause why our Saviour should speak to him thus because in his sifting he should shew more weaknes then the rest and a speciall fore needeth a special medicine But the fore being healed the recured person is as an other man of his
therfore unlesse you vvil renounce Christ and make Peter your Rock your God your Saviour that layd down his life for you to give you eternal life you cannot make him that one Pastor over the one fold of Iewes and Gentiles Wherfore neyther thrise nor yet once is Peter honoured with the stile of universal Pastor but onely is charged to feed Christs sheep as other Pastors also are required our Lord Iesus the great Pastor of the sheep hath given not one but many Pastors for this work Ephe. 4. 11. Having heard your reasons for Peters headship I exspected somewhat for your Popes pretended primacie but for this you shew no evidence froÌ„ Gods book you have none I trow so ancient Wherfore your position That the Popes definitive sentence as he is head of the church is an indeficient rule in matters of faith is farr as yet froÌ„ being proved And though this preeminence were yeilded for Cephas yet would I not grant the like for Caiaphas though Peter vvere the Rock on which Christs Church is builded yet your house may be situate on the sands for ought you have sayd to perswade the contrarie But let us see what the 3. point in your letter wil afford which now next foloweth Lastly and breifly you take upon you to shew that your Romane church is the true and onely catholik church of God that holy citie Apoc. 21. c. And first your church you say is catholik for in your memory you onely are catholiks in so much that the name catholik was hateful to a puritan or a protestant citing Beza D. Humfrie Sutcliff c. Your reason hath no weight What if others should say your church is the whore of Babylon Apoc. 17. because in their memory you only are lovers of that whore in so much that the name whore is hateful to a puritan or protestant Would you approve of this argumeÌ„t Yea but it is you say against the article of our beleef to deney the catholik church I answer we beleeve ther is a catholik that is an universal church no puritan or protestant I think denyes it But that your church of Rome or any other particular church in the world should be the universal or catholik church neyther faith nor reason dooth perswade Wherfore the auctors whom you cite mought vvel blame you for taking to your selves that ambitious title which never was given you of God If therfore you speak let it be as the words of God and if by his word you can say any thing to help you shâ—w it and by his grace I will hear Otherwise your assumed name Catholik moves me no more then the name Apostolik Prâ—â—tegiani corruptly called Prester John among the Ethâ—â—pians I know the Apostle Paul gave the church in Rome no such swelling title when he wrote therunto and if you would have your church called by a new name you should let the mouth of the Lord name it as sayth the Prophet Isa 62 2. except you would have it noted to be none of his Secondly you say your church is an ancient church and God is more ancient then the Divil truth then falshood c I grant your church is ancient but I deney it to be the most ancient Seing then the most ancient by your own grant is the most true bring â—orth the testimonies of your antiquitie and if in the particulars I shew more ancient testimonie then yow I will yeild But you procedâ— say If yow grant that once our church was the true church but stâ—ce it hath swarved from her ancient purity shew which Pope first gave place to the dâ—fects c. I grant there was a true church in Rome in tâ— Apostles dayes so was there in Ierusalem in Ephesus Corinth Colosse other cities many What their faith estate vvas I see in the most ancient records the Apostles aâ—s letters unto them What yowr faith estate is I see also by your late council of Trident other bâ—oks of yours maynteyning a religion unheard of in â—h Apostles dayes as in the particulars vvhen they come to be scanned after vve have ended these general grounds in hand I doubt not but to manifest Hovv Rome is come to be Lady mistresse of al churches I knovv not by any ancient record of the Apostles save by that mysterie opened unto Iohn in the vvildernes Apoc. 17. And if your Popes lives vvere in Gods record as were the Kings of Israel I could easily thevv which Pope first gave place to the defects c. but seing they are not recorded by him I vvil not preâ—ume above that vvhich is vvritten If upon mens report I should centure them I mought doo many good men vvrong They that are dead are gone to thâ—ir judgmeÌ„t have stood or fallen unto the Lord you that are livâ—ng must ansvvâ—r for your selves and your present state vvhich if you can not vvarrant by the vvord of God vvho liveth indu â—eth for ever your dead mens bones vvil be but slender pillars co underprop your church This I am sure of and testify unto you Our Saviour and his Apostles forecold of false prophets and of greivous vvolves that should come soon after and not spare the flock Who vvas the first vvolf in Ephesus vvho the first in Rome c I can not tel out if our Lord have given vs a true rule ye shall knovv them by their fruits vve may knovv your Pope not to be head of the Church unlesse of Antichrists your church it self to be Cos bi-bath tsur Falsitie daughter of a rock but not of Christ. Be not offended at my plain dealing vvith you it is a case of conscience and concerneth your salvation and my ovvn and I vvish your vvelfare as my ovvn Your conclusion neaping many praises upon your church many dispraises upon oâ—ns others that have forsaken her remayns hereafter unto due trial vvhen having finished these first questions begun you shall set dovvn arguments from Gods vvord eyther for your selves or against us In the mean time I obsâ—rve your dispute against us to have no more vveight or colour then as if the AEdomites or Ismaelites elder brethren to tâ—â— Israelites should have alleged their outvvard carnal privileges possessions against their poor brother Iaakob in AEgyptian bondage and after a pilgrim in the vvildernes or as if the Scribes and Pharisees should have pleaded for Annas and Caiaphas and their proceedings from Deut. 33 8 11. and other scriptures many against Iesus of Nazareth and his disciples I knovv he magnificence and pomp of the false church dazeleth the eyes of many her sorceries bevvitch many her fornications destroy many but her cup is ful of the vvine of vvrath and her lovers shal be cormented vvith her but those vvhom God loveth shal be delivered from her Wherefore serch in the book of God and read let his law be your light and make
and the Preists did passe togither Wherefore I may conclude with S. Peter this poinâ—t as I did before That no prophesie of scripture is made by a private spirits interpretation and so consequently not by the naked word And therefore S. John also bidds them trie their spirits whether they be of God 1. Joh. 4. v 20. And as for your distinction of private spirits it liâ—le availâ—th you For though the Pope be also a private man yet he is the head of the Church and hath the promise of our Saviour that his faith should not fayle him and though he may eâ—â— in matter of fact or sinn as well as an other man yet in matter of doctrine when as the head of the Church he is to give his definitive sentence he can not err in that he is directed as Christs Dicar in earth by the holy Ghost Yet for all this he dooth not neglect naturall meanes for the decision of any waighty cause But useth all vsuall serutiuie of causes and circumstances takes advice of the learned councells But you though you be also a private man yet you can not showe me any promise of the holy Ghost made rather to you theÌ„ to any other of your adversaries neyther have you greater signes to manifest the truth then the Protestants have Nay every one of your profession thinks he hath that spirit of interpreting which spirit often times proves no other then the spirit of Aâ—niball a merrie companion who when he had deceived poore Bullbrooke the interpreter of the word by casting out thrice Bullbrooke as from God at the mouth of a cave whither his reformed brethren resorted to heare froÌ„ lum delivered the word of the Lord afterward showed unto the whole campany that flocked more and more to this their illumâ—nated prophet the man of God so strangely called how he alone had deceived the poore man saying hang me if any other spirit but the spirit of Aâ—â—â—iball called thrife upoÌ„ Bulbrook Yet admit you should have a spirite to distinguish the truth of one mistery as I sayd yet you have not the spirit to distinguish the truth of all But that you might câ—y out with the true illuminated prophet now and then Dominus celavit hoc a me Our Lord hath hidden this from me that is in not revealing it Besides you see that every false prophet brags of his spiritt how then can a private spirit decide any controversie And for that you bring of the Israelites it were wel if you with them from the mouth of the Preist would learne wisdome And if you had that visible coming downe of the holy Ghost that the Apostles had if you had the giftes of tongues the power to worke miracles if you were taught with them all truth if your followers though illiterated were indowed with all these priviledges of the Apostles then might they with them take upon theÌ„ to interpret the scriptures For S. Luke recordeth That our Saviour opened his Apostles vnderstanding in all truth that they might vnderstand the scriptures but you can not show that our Saviour hath done more to you then to other men You now proceed and begin to ponder my third argument by which I did occure a future answer Not onely scriptures by themselves but scriptures by a privat mans interpretation or comparing one place with an other are not sufficient to be a rule of faith Which you say I dor not prove here to this I answer I did prove it there but the more sparingly in that this point seemes to be partly proved in that which goes before Yet to give you ful satisfactioÌ„ I wil a litle reinforce the force therof For since the scriptures hath diverse senses or as you say diverse references to sundry places persons and tymes how can a private spirit of a man assure one that this and no other is the true sense of this place Or how can you discern that the true spirit interprets this vnto you For the communication of this infused spirit must eyther be by a publick message bee delivered you so that those that are your adherents and followers may be assured by some visible signe that the holy ghost dictates unto you and I think by these visible apparitions and communication of the holy Ghost you wil not mainteyn your spirits interpretation Or else the holy ghost secretly instilâ—eth into you what is the true sense But here I demand of you how you are assured of this working of the holy ghost since there was never yet hereâ—ick so senseless or error so grosse but would tell vs of this private assuraÌ„ce of the holy Ghost And though the communication of the true spirit should be manifest to your self yet you could give no warrant or assurance thereof to vs to the Protestant adversaries or to your own followers How would you be able to convince an AriaÌ„ that wil thwart you with that of S. John my father is greater then I If you say this place is to be vnderstood in regard of his humanitie and not in regard of his divinitie he will bid you show scripture plainly to affirme that How wil you answer an Anabaptist that will have no man to be baptized before they come to the yeares of discretion to give a reason of their faith How will you answer us Catholiks or the Protestants when we demaund of you why you follow the vulgar translation in saying Elder when the originall and all other languages almost hath stil the word Presbyter which signifies Preist to all Nay since the holy scriptures admitteth divers senses and doe not explaine themselves how should a poore artificer perswade himself that this sense which he apprehends is onely the true sense Nay that he is easily deceided herein by a pâ—…dicated opinion I will show For when he comes to read that S. Peter in his first epistle salutes them from BabyloÌ„ he in that he may not admit S. Peter to have bene at Rome will not have Babylon there to be Rome but he will have S. Peter to salute them from that Babylon in Assyria But when he comes to â—â—ad Apoc. 1â— 18. Babylon againe in that he hath rooted mallice against Rome he will have her alone to be that Babylon he will applie all these mischeifs and deformities to the church of Rome Now if you object that comparing one place with another will afford the right sense I ask you how you are certayne of that since that place with whome you are to compare it hath divers senses or references how are you assured to compare it to the right in regard of each circumstance Nay if these spiritual men be the onely decidants why doe they when the word signifies an evil sense translate traditions though it be the self same Greek word Col. 2. v. 20. Why are you ledd with traditions And when in divers places the self same word imports Apostolicall traditions in stedd thereof they read ordinances
to man children when in danger of death before the eight day they necessarily were to receive remedie of their sinne How prove you that our blessed virgin Marie was a perpetuall virgin ante partum in partu et post partum how ar you able to prove this by the bare letter against Helvidius the heretick for he vrgeth you with the plaine text and with originall phrase viz. That he knew her not till the brought forth her first sonne and the word know you know what it imports in the Hebrew phrase As Abraham knew Sara So that you see we beleeve this perfection of the blessed and perpetuall Uirgin Mary by tradition though the bare text seems to make against it How doe you prove that our sunday should be celebrated on sunday and not on saterday by the bare letter without tradition How doe you prove the celebration of Easter as it is now without tradition How doe you prove the Creede of the Apostles out of the naked word How doe you prove without tradition that you should receive the blessed sacrament kneeling the receiving of it fasting the eating of blood and straÌ„gled meates prohibited in the Acts of the Apostles How are you able to prove all these or any one of these by convincing reasons out of the holy scriptures alone All these you say you can prove not alleaging one place of scripture for any of them though you have bene most copious to prove idem per idem in other pointes to little purpose Now you say onely it would goe hard with you if you could not prove these without tradition and me thinks it goes hard with you since you prove not one particular of them all Therfore I desire you that you would not confound your trace so like the Fore or hare in doubling and turning but that you would answer distinctly to each poinct as it lies if you answer Wherfore to shut up this point I will conclude with S. August Genes ad litt â— 10. â— 23. that as he sayes that the not rebaptising of infants were not to be beleeved if it were not taught by tradition So I say these forealleaged mysteries were not to be beleeved without the direction of tradition Now since we are come to the answering of your arguments which are nothing but allegations of scripture falsly applied me thinks I cannot better compare them then as to so many orient pearles and rich Jewels hung and placed out of order in an Judian or â—thiopians lippes nose armes and legges so these places of scripture in that they are racked and wrested from their right sence and meaning their lustre and beautie is rather a disgrace theÌ„ ornament to the wearer For when you bring the place of Deut. 5 32. to take heed that wee should doe as our Lord commaunded us not turning to the right hand nor the left and of that of Deut. 12. 32. not putting any thing therevnto or taking any thing therfrom I answer first granting that God commaundeth this but I deny that hence can be gathered that in that we should doe as our Lord commaundeth us and that we should not turne vnto the right hand or to the left that the holy scripture should be the onely rule and vâ—ptor of faith Fâ—r as it doth not follow nothing is to be added to the fourth coÌ„maundement and the fourth commandement is to be observed therfore there is onely the fourth commaundement and it is therfore the rule of all the rest 2. I answer that all additions whatsoever are not here prohibited but onely such as are contrary to the word of God For many other Prophets as the penn men of the holy Ghost did adde diverse yea most part of the holy scriptures But now it is plaine that the definitions and traditions of the Catholick church by whose mouth the holy Ghost doth dictat are most consonant to the text of scripture For the holy Ghost speaketh by them though not tanquam calamus velociter scribentis For Luke 10. it is sayd he that heareth you heareth me and he that contemneth you contemneth me Math. 18. If he doe not hear the church let him be to thee as an Ethnicke and a Publican and S. Ambrose expounding the last of S. John 18 v. where S. John saith If any man shall adde unto these things God shall adde vnto him the plagues written in this book S. Ambrose saith he makes not a protestation against the expositors of his prophesie but against heretichs For the expositor doth adde nor diminish nothing but onely openeth the obscuritie of the place and sheweth the moral and spirituall sense Now to answer your second argument I wonder how you being a man of vnderstanding should be so much deceived as to think that these places make for you against vs. For wee holding firm our assertion can cite all the self same places Rom. 3. 10. 11 19. that man naturally understands not the things of God that mans wisdome is foolishnes Coloss. 2. 22. For we affirm it the gift of the holy ghost by an infused habit of faith that we beleeve and that by the directioÌ„ of the holy Ghost promised that the Church cannot â—â—r neyther doe we when we allow of tradition make at our pleasure voluntary religion for we acknowledge tradition also to be the word of God the voice of his spouse that is taught in al truth guided up the holy ghost vnto the end of the world Wherfore your argument proves nothing since you presuppose that proved that rests yet to you to prove The like answer I give vnto your third argument viz. that men are dead in trespasses Ephe. 2. 5. Math 15 9. that faith to by hearing and hearing by the word Rom. 10 17. But I deny that the word is the totall or onely rule of faith since we finde many thinges to be beleeved that are not expresslie found in the written word nor thence deduced And to answer breifly vnto your 4 Argument I graunt that the Preists and Prophets were bound to heare the word and that of Ezek. 13. 2 3. that they should not prophesie according to their own heart or follow their own spirit but I deny that they should follow onely the written word or that folowing the voice of the Church the interpretaton of holy Fathers and Doctors they follow their own harts and their own inventions So that you see how weake your arguments be so that they might with more reason bee returned on your self The second thing which you say I take vpon me to prove but more rightly to say onely to propound till the decision of this mayne question be ended which was whether the definitive sentence of the Church and Pope be an infallible rule and guide of our faith Thus questioÌ„ I say I onely inteÌ„ded rather to propound theÌ„ prove that we have not at one tyme diverse proâ—s togither in the fyre But now to handle it by way of vellitation and not of purpose
the truth vvill prevayl in antiquitie against all opposites but then Gods vvord and spirit in his scriptures and servants must be ouâ— bulwark as now they be mine If your Church Pope and traditions will not stand you in stead against Iewes Turks â— thinks but onely for to contend a while against your even Christen then doo you not build upon the Rock nor lay such a ground as all hâ—l gates can not prevail against for these miscâ—eants will prevail against it but wee that rely on Gods word and spirit shall by his grace stand for ever even as the Apostles did by these convert all nations under heaven Wheras I further thâ—wâ—d you â—h insufficiencie of your plea for church traditions by example or Israel whose church and preists â—ared and codemned Christ c. You answer mâ— that the high preisthood that was judge did not err nâ— not when ouâ— Saviour was co deÌ„â—â—d in that the high preisthood remayned in our saviour for he was thâ—… if judge c. But doubtlesse the Pharisees would have smiled aâ—â—his answer wherin you â—â—ke for graunted the main controversie Question was then in Israel whether Iesus of Nazareth were the true Mâ—sâ—â—â— the high preists scribes rulâ—r sayd no he is a deceiver and hath a Dâ—…l if any confesse him to be the Christ let him be excoÌ„municate Dooth any of the rulers or of the pharisees beleeve in him but this people which know not the lawer cursed If you â—ad then lived it seemes you vvould have confuted all the Rabbâ—nes with this that Iesus was the Messias because he was the cheif preist and judge But had you not câ—â—aved othervveise to the scriptures as did th' Apostles and sâ—novv doo they vvould soon have stopt your mouth vvith this that hard controversies were by the lavv to come unto the Preists of the Levites not a Preist of Iuda concerning vvhich tribe Moses spake nothing touching the preisthood and unto the Iudge that should been thâ—se dayes in the place vvhich the Lord did choose vvhich vva Ierusalem not Nazareth or Galilee vvhence Iesus came and hâ—y should shevv the sentence of judgment c and he that vvould not â—â—aâ—ken to the Prâ—â—â— or Iudge should die But vve are the Preists of the Levites vvould they say and by our oâ—ce must teach the people betvveeneth holy profâ—nâ— and in controversie must stand to judge according to â—hâ— lavv vvhich vve teach tel must mâ—n doo now we have a law and by our lavv he ought to dye because he made himself the son of God If now your religion had been known that the Church the preisthood can not err the simple people might have chosen Barâ—bbâ—s rather then Iesus as in deed they did and have had much more colour to plead for Annas and Caiaphas then you have for your Popâ— and succession the pillar of your catholik church would have born down all the disciples of our Lord. Beware therfore how you build upon these â—oggs least you betray the Gospell unto stubborn Iewes Besides all this if you knew the scriptures you might find long before that the church of Israel erred Did not the preists rulers and people condemn the Prophets of God sent in severall ages and was not Ierusalem the holy citie and seat of the preisthood gâ—… of their blood Was not vile and grosse idolatrie practised often in Iuda and Ierusalem by the Preists and Princes so that Ierusalem Aâ—OLâ—â—AH mâ—â—red her self with inordinate love and with her fornications more then her idolatrous sister AHOLAH or Samaria For Iudah forsook the Lord and turned their faces from his tabernacle shut the dores of his howse quenched his lamps and neyther burnt incense nor offred burnt offrings in the sanctuarie unto the God of Israel and will you say in all this the Church did not err Vriah the Preist made an altar idolatrous like that in Damascus and polluted Gods worship in the temple Paâ—h it the son of Immâ—r the Preist being governour in the house of the Lord persecuted Ieremiah for preaching the truth and himself prophesied lyes A general defection was in the church they their Kings their Princes their Preists and their Prophets the men of Iudah the inhabitants of Ierusalem they turned the back unto God and not the fâ—… and sâ—â— their abominations in the house wherupon his name vvas called to defile it and built the high places of Baal and offred their children into Molech The heads of Ierusalem judged for rewards the preists taught for hire and the prophets prophesied for money And wil you yet say the church did not err The Lord sayd by Malachi that his covenant had been with Levi even life and peace and he gave him fear that he feared him and was afrayd before his name the law of truth was in his mouth and no iniquitie found in his lips for the Preists lips should preserve knowledge they should seek the law at his mouth for he is the Angel of the Lord of hosts But of the Preists that theÌ„ lived he coÌ„plaineth that they wâ—r gone out of the way had caused many to fall by the law had brokeÌ„ the covenaÌ„t of Levi for which God made theÌ„ despised vile before al the people And where now is the privilege of the preistood not to err And if the church then erred as many moe proofs may yet be brought if you stil denev it how did the godly for a grouÌ„d of their faith Wil not the law of the Lord his good spirit which he gave to instruct them susteyn is now as it did them then against all errors heresies and idolatries Otherweise Christians now under the gospel should have lesse grace or benefit by the scriptures and spirit of God then thee had then which is contrary to all the promises Thâ—se things I dor the more insist upon to inforce you to a deâ—pâ—r consideratioÌ„ of your estate foundation of you faith which you lay upoÌ„ the sands for though the church is to be respected and honoured above all societies in the world her doctrines admonitions censures to be regarded yet may we not make an idol of her nor set her in Gods throne himself hath taught us from the beginning that the Annointed preist may syn to thr syn of the people a ruler mought syn the whâ—l congregation of Israel mought syn and all were to offer sacrifieâ— for their trespasses that all flesh may learn to be silent before God and confesse theÌ„selves to err But Gods word â—trâ—th not his scriptures are as silver fined 7 times no drosse is in them therfore the scripture is above the church and that perfect rule must guide us not the imperfect doctrines of men Now wheras I shewed how the Labyrinth of your religion leadeth to the Pope the centre of your circle and
maketh him a ground of grounds whereon 〈◊〉 bâ—ild our faith that he must tell us what is divine scripture and vvhat is the meaning of every point of scripture vvhat is unvvritten veritie c. and none may doubt or contradict you give me an anansvver from Aristotle Philosophie but altogither neglect the true sophie or wisdome that is from above For by what ground from God may I be assured that the B. of Rome rather then of Eph sâ—â— c is the onely man in the world on whom my â—aith must rest oâ— that ther is such a mutual reciprocation betwixt Gods word him that the one necessarily depends on an other the word on the Pope as touching us I know the church as it is manifested by the scriptures so beareth witnes agayn of the scriptures holdeth them forth or should as the pillar ground of truth But this not alwayes nor necessarily For how thâ—n is it come to passe that the church of Ephesus which in Pauls time was the pillar and ground of truth hath long synce been swallowed up of heresies Why may I not fear also that the church of Rome whom Paul wâ—rn d not to be hie minded out to fear least God who spared not the natural branches the Iewes would also not spare her but cutt her off is swallowed up of like evils And to follow your ovvn similitude hovv do you manifest that the Pope is the onely skilful Lapidarie that must value the Carbuncles Saphirs and al other precious stones that shine in the scriptures If a Lapidary should shew you a chaulk stone and say it 〈◊〉 a diamond prize it aâ—â—ording vvould you beleev him and give him 〈◊〉 price yet you beleev the Pope vvheÌ„ he tels you that the fabulous books of â—obie and of Iudith other like apocryphal are canonical inspired of God to be prized as dear as Mosâ—s and the Prophets As he shevves little skil in this art that gives such rubbish in sted of the Topaz Chrysoliteâ— so dare I not trust him in valuing the stones upon Aarons Ephod or shevving the vertue uses of them vvhâ—r of he is more ignorant as experience hath taught them many other men Yet you refuse the holy Ghost the spirit of al truth who onely is able to value the word of God and undoubtedly to manifest the wisdom of the same to build your salvation upon a man who may himself as anon I wil prove by your own confession be the child of damnation Now verily I am loth to put my soul into his hand that hath so little care of his ovvn or make him the onely Pilote of my ship that sayles himself into the gulf of hâ—ll And wheras you vvould havâ— me giv you leav to be of Sâ—â—â—gâ—stines mind who sayd he would not beleev the scripture to be scripture without the authoritie of the church if he and you understand Christ the head of the church auctor of the scriptures good leav have you But if you mean his supposed Vicar the Pope for so your catholik church shrinketh into one man or any such prelate you may take leav if you vvill but I vvil give you none For Augustine vvho vvrote a book of â—etractations râ—pâ—â—nting his ovvn sundry errors and oversights mought err in this as vvel as in other points it is not vvisdom for any man to follovv him in all things that vvas deceived in many And this is such an assertion as behoved him eyther vvâ—l to explaine it or plainly to retract it and not to leav a stumbling block before the blind And if you vvil needs blindfold your self and folovv him yet give others leav to use their ey-sight least they fall into the ditch And herein I not you follovv Augustines stepps for when controversie was between Hierom and him about Peters syn Galat. 2. Hierom alledged many Doctors to back his opinion then desired of him as you doo now of me to give him leav to err with such men if he thought him to err Augustine answered that he had Paul himself in sted of them al yea above them al and to him he did flie and appeal from them al that were otherweise minded and asked leav of them that he mought rather beleev so great an Apostle then any other how learned so ever As you would have leav to be of Austins mind for the other point so wil I take leav to be of his practise in this Your â— argument now foloweth drawn from the difficultie hardnes to understand the scripture Wherto I answered granting some things to be difficult in the Bible but deneying the inference that therefore it is no certayn rule or square of truth Yow reply that the testimonie alledged 2. Pet. 3. 16. doth prove it for in what say you dooth S. Peter say that S. Paul is hard but concerning many points of our faith and religion as concerning predestination reprobation vocation of the gentils justification by faith of which high mysteries S. Paul is the chief and principal master I answer First you confound the things with the scripture which manifesteth the things whereas these two differ much Predestination is a hard thing for men to understand whosoever speak or write of it but the scripture that treateth hereof is playn in it self Paul is not so obscure as your Pope Secondly the Apostle saith that the unlearned unstable doo pervert or wrest these things as the other scriptures also but what is this against those that be taught of God and stablished in the truth by his spirit Evil minded men wil wrest al things be they never so playn Shal we therefore have no rule no sure grouÌ„d of our faith To come theÌ„ neer unto you in this point I freely grant that many high mysteries are in the scriptures hard to be vnderstood of us ignorant men but withal I add this that those mysteries are made more hard by your Popes determinations For wheras men mought have some good mesure of light in these mysteries by the playn scriptures it is come to passe by your Popes prelates glosses interpretations coÌ„ments c. that darknes grosse darknes hath covered many people who if they had never read any thing but the book of God inought have seen much more clearly through his grace You doe not right therfore to complayne of difficultie insufficiencie in the Prophetical and Apostolical writings Why rather mind you not theâ—saying of the holy Ghost in the scriptures Prov. 18 8. 9. The words of my mouth are al playn to him that wil understand and streight to them that would find knowledg But you make Gods holy comfortable words to be crooked dark deceivable rules and his divine oracles given for the salvation of men to be like the doubtfull Delphik oracles of the Divill uttered for mens destruction You think the late fathers and your Popes can
may say to him vvhy doe you this and that whosoever obeyes not his precepts incures the syn of idolatrie paganisme You may tell me that the Pope hath not dominion over your faith but your Canonist tel me that he can dispense against the law of God that he can dispense against the law of nature that he can dispense against an Apostle that he can dispense against the new testament yea that he can dispense concerning all the precepts of the old and nevv testament And may vve novv think that he hath not dominion over your saith or may wee think that vvhen he is come which should sit as God in the Temple of God that he wil doe greater things then these But of your Popes preeminence wee are to speak in another place To return therfore to the scripture which you deney to be an indeficient rule of our faith you objected that it had many senses and stil you stand to it as proved well I am content to leave it unto judgement But though it were so yet this is not proved that therfore it is no sure rule of our faith save by your churches exposition For why might not the church in Corinth which were made rich by Christ in all kind of speech and in all knowledge so that they were not destitute of any gift why might not that church I say declare the many senses of scripture as well as the church of Rome Or rather why may not the holy ghost shew any church or any member or Christs church the meanings of the scripture and so it remayn as a firm rule of faith and the Spirit of God the sole authentik expositor of the same But here you urge agayn your bastard phrase falsly fathered upon S. Peter that no prophesie of scripture is made by a private spirits interpretatioÌ„ though I blamed you before for speaking in such sort If you can not perceive heavenly things consider earthly Your one body hath but one spirit which gives life to the vvhole and to every member of the body The same spirit dooth quicken the hand and foot that quickneth the head and hart although a greater measure is in the principal members then in the inferiour Even so by the scriptures we learn that the catholik church is one bodie and hath one spirite and though the many members of this bodie have not one work but have received diversities of giftes yet it is the same spirit To one by the spirit is given the word of vvisdom to an other the word of knowledge by the same spirit and to an other faith by the same spirit and so all the gifts to all the members This is the most publick spirit that the church hath and every member of the church hath the same so there is no privat spirit which Christians have as you by tradition it seemes have learned Now seeing all Christians have the same spirit that the Pope himself unlesse he have the spirit of Satan how is it that he onely must be the publik spirit and interpreter of the word Because say you he is the head of the church and hath the promise of our Saviour that his faith should not fayl him This I deney Now you beleeve it because the Pope himself tells it you for your ovvn privat spirit may assure you of nothing I wil disprove it by your next words and knowen experience For you say he may err in matter of fact and syn aswell as an other man then say I he may goe to the Divil for his facts and synns as vvell as an other man then is he the successor of Iudas Iscariot not of Simon Peter then the gates of hel prevaile against him And thus your Rock is rent in peeces and your building is on the sands You rely upoÌ„ one whom you know not but he may be a reprobate a child of the Divil yea a divil incarnate as Pope Iohn the 23. was found and judged to be by the Council of Constance and then he may lye as well as his father the Divil and then if you take not heed he may murder your soul as well as his father the Divil And how then dare you make him your rock your hope your confidence to beleeve all that he sayth not to beleeve Gods word unlesse he tell you it is Gods word not to beleeve any meaning of the scriptures but as he tell you the meaning is If men were bruite beasts without understanding they could not be more overruled then thus but the Lord sayth be not as the horse and as the mule And if the inhabitants of the earth had not been druncken with the wine of her fornication the great whore could never thus have benummed their senses and bereft them of heavenly light If you deney that your Popes may be reprobates and Heariots though they may syn your own popish records will teach you by as undoubted marks upon them as ever had Cain the dearest lovers of your catholik chaire branding their holy fathers with titles of prodigious wonders monsters for their beastly lives so some of them are knowen to have dyed without repentaÌ„ce or faith in God that eyther they never had faith or els their faith failed and then Christ prayed not for them as he did for Peter so their pretended priviledge lieth in the dust The 15. of the Acts alledged for Peters primacie I have before answered and leav it unto judgment yow urge now againe vers 7. that Pâ—â—er rose up shewing therby that he was head c. a strange collection that if a man rise up to speak in an assembly he must need therfore be head you mought better have gathered so if he had sitten stil spoken for sitting of the two rather argues auctoritie then standing up But tel me I pray you in earnest when Gamaliel is sayd to rise up in the council of the Iewes in Ierusalem would you gather from this that he was the head of them all Or when Paul rose up in the synagogue of Antiochia was he therefore the head If not why dally you thus with the holy scriptures to gather such conclusions as common sense wil not bear But if you would plead for no other headship then this that your Pope may rise up and speak in councils it wil easily be granted but then if others should judge and give sentence froÌ„ the scripture as Iames there did your chair of Rome would soon be overthrown Like weight is in your next words that the first gentils were chosen by his mouth for that you should say God chose that the gentils by his mouth should hear the word of the Gospel and beleev What primacie of power you can build hereon I cannot tell order I am sure ther must be in al things so ther was with them and is with us we grant unto you
having fayled in his fidelitie is in special excited unto duty diligence al the other should be excluded Doe you not see hovv after this Paul shevveth Eph. 4. not Peter onely but Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors and Teachers to be given of Christ for the building up of his church Your conclusion to be inferred hereupon if you conclude the question wil be much more unreasonable The point you undertook to prove vvas that not Gods vvord in the Bible but the catholik churches yea the Popes definitive sentence as he is head of the church is an indeficient rule in matters of faith To confirm this haeresie you produce here Christs charge to Peter Freed my sheep Behold Novv the strength of your argument If Peter vvas to feed Christs sheep then not Gods vvord in the scriptures but Peters definitive sentence and consequently the Popes is an indeficient rule of faith But Peter vvas to feed Christs sheep Iohn 21. Frgo c. The unreasonablenes of vvhich consequence if the bare rehearsal of it doo not convince may be shewed by the like thus If the Bishops of Ephesus vvere to feed the church of God then not Gods vvord in the scripture but their definitive sentences vvere indeficient rules in matters of faith But the Bishops of Ephesus vvere to feed the church of God Act. 20. 28. Ergo. If the Elders of the churches of Galatia Cappadocia Asia and Bithynia were to feed the flocks of God then not Gods word in the Bible but their definitive sentences were indeficient rules in matters of faith But the Elders of those churches were to feed the flock of God 1 Pet. 5 â— 2. Ergo. Behold what deep waters you have digged out from the Rock of Rome their spring I trow comes from the bottomlesse pitt If you say those Elders were under Peter as a head therfore they were to feed with his definitive sentence not their own First I deny that so they were under him and you shal never prove it whiles Rome gates doo stand though I grant their office was inferiour to the Apostles Secondly if you could prove it yet would it make against you for if because Peter was their head therfore they must feed with his doctrine onely then because Christ was Peters head Peter was to feed with Christs doctrine onely But Christ was Peters head acknowledged by Peter himself to be Arch pastor so taught by Christ himself Iohn 10. Therfore Christ definitive sentence onely not Peters much lesse the Popes is the indeficient rule of our faith And thus my cause is confirmed and yours overturned by your own weapon Yet you procede and say besides Christ speaks to S. Peter that he should feed his general flock though he may speak unto the other Apostles that they should feed their particular charges I would we might once have an end of words of wind You say al things but prove nothing unlesse your definitive sentence also must be taken for a law But then I am sure it is against Christs law for as he neyther used the word general to Peter nor the word particular to the other Apostles so wheÌ„ he sent them with their charge al indifferently it was unto al nations yea into al the world to preach the gospel to every creature and as the Father sent him so sent he them And where now I pray you were their particular charges But let it be as you say let the Apostles and al Christian Bishops their successors have these precincts in al nations in al the world and what place is over and beside let your Peter the Pope have there to menage his supremacie But here you bring your S. Leo to speak for S. Peter and I know he was his freind for I shewed before how he placed Peter in the fellowship of the indivisible unitie so making him a God I know also have shewed that in the same 3. anniversarie sermon which you cite he speaketh more for S. Peter then you bring here how be it though the Lion roreth he hath got no prey For the headship hath been proved to be Christs not Peters the Apostleship to be Peters with the other Apoltles And though you again and again doe barely affirm S. Peter was head of al the rest of the Apostles yet I must tel you again again that I hold not your definitive sentence nor the Popes neyther to be a right rule of faith but if you can bring the word of God for you that thrâ—ugh his grace I wil gladly receive In the end of this your velitation you leav me to impuâ—ne â— B. â—armines doctrine as it heth c. But your captayn comes not into this feild he lyes intrenched within the walls of Rome and triumphes in the Vatican It is you that have bid me battel and as you entred not these lists without an alarme so you wil not depart I trow without an io triumphe Yet to say the truth in answering you I have answered your Cardinal for your reasons be his you have taken them out of his skoncâ— Onely you have culled them out here and there in other order have taken the most pregnant arguments that he hath Which being by him and by you propounded by me now answered you are to look whither the propugning of them shallye upon him or on you against this my impugnation Or if you wil let them dye you may sound the retrait The 3. and last thing which you promised to prove was that this rule the indeficient rule of faith is onely found in the Roman Catholik church sentence and not in privat mens illuminations or motions of a priâ—â—t and unseen spirit Both parts of this your divided proposition I disallow and mainteyn a third viz that this rule is to be found in the writings Prophetical and Apostolical because as your Cardinal hath wel sayd nothing is more known nothing more certeyn then the holy scriptures which are conteyned in them and this is a most certayn and a most safe rule of beleeving Before vvhen you came to shew your proof it was that your Roman church is the true and onely catholik church of God Which though I doo deney yet if I did grant it it would not prove your assertion For it is the voice of the bridegroom not of the bride which is the ground of mens faith the catholik church is to receiv lawes and rules from her head Christ not to prescribe lawes or rules to her members There is one Lawgiver who is able to save and to destroy But because your church must first be proved true catholik before her sentence can be approved therefore I was content to look into this first branch requiring proof that your Roman church is the true then the onely catholik for I deney both What proofs you brought before how I answered them I leav to indifferent consideration and wil now again take
a view how you mainteyn your proofs First you say I fayn would challenge the name catholik unto my self I answer this is not so The catholik church is the mother of al Christians of which I am an unworthy child but were not worthy to be named her child if I would challenge her title which belongs not to me nor to any her daughters the particular churches on earth Secondly you say that after I seem to refuse it because it is not warranted by the written word asking why I doo not as wel reject the name Trinitie aâ— I answer agayn the contrary to that you say is true for I proved and that by the written word which it seems you could not doo that ther is a catholik or vniversal church and if need were could bring many moe proofs Why then doe you injurie me so openly before the sun and then run on to dilate upon your own wilfull mistaking such dealing dooth not become any true member of the catholik church But you can shew us you say the prophesie of Isaiah fulfilled that the gospel is preached to all nations But we need not be shewed that by you for it is shewed us by the Ap ostle almost 16. hundred yeres agoe Rom. 10. 18. 16 26. The whole world you say is replenished with the fruit of your doctrine The more is the pitty if it pleased God for your doctrine is not the gospel but the Popes definitive sentences But this also we have been taught many yeres agoe As al the world wondred and folowed the first beast so the second did all that the first beast could doe before him and made all both small and great rich and poor free and bond to receive the mark The waters where the whore fitteth are people and multitudes nations tongues All nations have drunk of the vvine of the vvrath of her fornication Papisme is large Mahometisme larger Paganisme largest dispred in these our last and most dangerous days But our invisible churches you think are excelled farr by the Jewes visible meetings in sundry places But the woman that fled into the vvildernes vvas seen of God and dear unto him though she vvere hid from the visible Dragon and his persecuting Angels Esau had much more visible glorie then his poor brother Iaakob vvhen so many kings reigned in AEdom before any King reigned over Israel Fevv soules vvere saved in the Ark vvhen many perished in the syn-floud And this maketh many George Davids to deney the verity of the Bible beleeve the traditions of Babel because the promised visible destruction of the church of Antichrist is not yet performed But you Roman catholiks have all motives as you say of evident credibilitie as 1. all antiquitie Nay stay there the most antique records of the holy Prophets and Apostles you dare not stand to be tried by but shun them and flee to your late traditions and Popes definitive sentences So your church vvil be her ovvn judge vvhether she be a vvhore or no vvheras neyther Aholah nor Aholibah vvould give that sentence against themselves though men vvent unto them as to a common harlot but the righteous men judged them after the manner of harlots 2. Unitie not in the truth but in haeresie for your church hath by degrees from age to age so declined from the lavves of God that she is one vvith her self but become an alien from Christ. For proof vvheof let the ancient faith of the church in Rome vvheÌ„ Paul vvrot therto the nevv faith of the church of Rome decreed in the Council of TreÌ„t be compared togither and vve shall find as good unity betvveen them in many things as betvveen light darknes Besides vvhat unitie is in your religion the late broiles in England betvveen the Iesuites and the seculars to omit all former schismes that have been in Rome it sâ—lf may shevv Though by the Popes povvrfull hand they are novv tyed togither at least by thâ— tayles like the foxes in Palestina 3. Universalitie even as it vvas in the dayes of Noe vvhen the â—â—ood came and destroyd them all for so shall it be in the day vvhen the son of man shal be reveled Vniversalitie of abomination shal procure from God univorsal desolation for with her inchantments vvere deceived all nations 4. Disibilitie Even notorious to all that have eyes to see For if a citie can not be hid that is situate upon a mountayn hovv should not that citie be seen vvhich is set upon 7. mountayns on vvhose top your vvoman sayleth 5. Confirmed by the consent of Doctors for her merchants are the great men of the earth 6. By the institution of most holy religious orders for the vvomaÌ„ is arrayed in purple and scarlet and guilded vvith gold and precious stones and pearles in her house are peace offrings and the payeth her vovves and perfumeth her bed vvith myrrh aâ—oes and cinamon because Christs institutions and most holy orders are too mean and base for her royaltie 7. The conversion of nations for the inhabitants of the earth are drunken vvith th vvine of her fornication she hath caused many to fall dovvn vvounded and great is the number of all that are slayn by her 8. The power of miracles shewing great signes and vvonders that if it vvere possible the very elect mought be deceived but that all they may be damned vvhich beleeve not the truth but have pleasure in unrighteousnes 9. Infinite number almost of martyrs that have sealed her doctrine with their bloods c. for among her other merchandise are also the soules or lives of men vvhom she exposeth by sending into the nations to sovv her darnel and to sel her vvares till the kingdomes of the earth revvarding her as she hath revvarded them doo cut off these chapmen from land of the living Hovv be it she her self hath made many moe martyrs by killing Christs vvitnesses that have spoken against her as England France Germanie and many other nations testify for in her must be found the blood of the prophets and of the saincts Thus have I confirmed your notes by the scriptures vvhich you did set dovvn barely without proof that all men may see your markes may be shewed by the vvord of God Other apples there are vvhich your soules lust after all vvhich shall depart from you as God raiseth vp the vvitnesses of his truth against you But you proceed and say 2. You have a certaine visible and infallible way to decide all controversies which is the catholik church that propoundeth what is to be beleeved and what is not A sure vvay in deed vvherein you may vvalk safely till God rise up to judgement against you You boast to be the onely catholik church and to have the onely true beleef vve except against you by the vvord of God your church vvhich
novv stands charged to be a harlot vvilbe her ovvn judge and decide the controversie her self If you grant Mahomet but this one ground for himself I vvarrant you he vvil vvin the feild And if you can prove unto me but this one ground vvhich being the question is here begged by you I vvill soon receive alâ— doctrines traditions ceremonies that your mother church propoun â—eth But I have shevved you a more certaine playn and infallible vvay the old and good vvay vvherein our Fathers* vvalked to decide all controversies by vvhich is the holy oracles of God vvritten by his Prophets and Apostles vvhich if you vvil not yeeld to vvalk in but continue in your catholik aberrations you and your church shall perish in the hovvr appointed and then shal be sayd O heaven rejoyce of her and ye holy Apostles and Prophets for God hath given your judgement not her ovvn upon her 3. You have as you say Gods divine veracitâ—e speaking by the mouth of the church which formally makes you beleeve But vve say I to you have Gods divine veracitie speaking by the mouth of his holy Prophets vvhich have been since the vvorld began and also the comandements of the Apostles of our Lord and saviour vvhich effectually make us beleeve through the spirit God vvhich is given unto us That God speaks in them is pâ—ayn and your selves grant that undoubted veracitie is in his vvords is evident and your selves dare not deney by this divine veracitie vve submitt our selves our churches our faith our actions to be tried of all But your church lifteth up her self to be her ovvn judge and lavvgiver and vvil not suffer her self to be tried by the holy scriptures Thus glorifieth thâ— her self and liveth in pleasure and sayth in her hart I sit a Queen but strong is the Lord God vvhich vvill condemn her 4. You have as you say a supernatural judgement to beleeve in common at least in that all people all nations have so beleeved You need no supernaturall judgement for this for it is a popular carnal reasoÌ„ which the natural man easily receiveth But the spiritual man by supernatural light from the law of God beleeveth in particular though all people all nations should depart from Christ because he hath the sure word of God in the scriptures and the spirit of God by a covenant froÌ„ the Lord. Isa. 59 21. And by this means he discrieth in the wildernes that woman and her mysterie how she sitteth upon many waters or peoples of whose wine the nations having drunk therfore they rage Lastly through all these you have as you say a pious affection through the working of Gods holy grace to beleeve hir et 〈◊〉 hoc et illud and that without any difficultie since you first beleeve there to but one true church and that church cannot err c. I confesse in deed you have the broad and easy vvay wherin yow run on with great facilitie if God of his grace stay you not unto your perdition For by these false grounds your minds are so bewitched that with her great craft she hath caused you to yeild with her flattering lipps hath entised you and ye folow her straightway as oxen that goe to the slaughter and as fools to the stocks for correction til a dart strike through your liveâ— as birds hastâ—â—â— to the snare not knowing that it is for their lives For by beleeving this and that as your catholik mother dooth propound and not trying nor daring to trie her propositions by the book of God you have quite lost the ancient catholik and Apostolik faith vvhich was in the Churches of God in Rome Corinth Galatia throughout all nations as whensoever you bring your opinions to the trial by Gods authentik writings will appear And though you glorie of S. Peter for your Rock as your ancestors gloried of their Father Abraham yet wil you not folow his holy playn Apostolical counsels when he referrs you to the sure word of the Prophets and to the commandements of them the Apostles of the Lord giving you warning of false teachers to come after which privily should bring in heresies of perdition whose damnable wayes many should follow by whom the way of truth should be evil spoken of What remayneth then if you proceed in this evil course but as yow cleave to your late fathers synns so you be partaker of their plagues And if you will not hearken to that voice from heaven Goe out of her my people you shall hear and feel the effect of that voice which the Angel standing in the sun crieth so lowd to al fowles of the heaven to come unto the supper of the great God wher they shall eat the fleshes of Kings and high captayns and of mighty men and of horses and horsmen of freemen and bondmen of small and great when the beast and the false prophet which deceived with miracles them that received his mark shal be cast alive into the lake of fyre burning in brimstone To save you from this perdition loe how large a letter I have written unto you this second time testifying unto you the word of God and against the erroneous grounds or quicksands rather wheron you build your faith God offring me this occasion by your self I have out of the love of my hart endevoured to save your soule froÌ„ death by shewing you the way of life choose life therfore that you may live Look into the book of God wherin you seem to me to be a stranger and pray unto him for understanding in the same so shall you find more light to your eyes more coÌ„fort to your hart then the caâ—t lodes of later Doctors Fathers Councils c. can give unto you And if you will not be warned I shal lament your estate yet whiles I may I will doo you good and as for all reproches taunts vituperies which you hav already uttered or may yet further utter against me I shal willingly bear and bury them and use all good means I can to save you from the damnation of hel God open you eyes and perswade your hart unto the sight obedience of his most holy faith â— once given unto the saincts Amen From Amsterdam this 16. of April 1610. Yours if you wil be Christs Henr Ainsworth If you have sayd what you can against the scriptures of God their alsufficiencie for mans faith you may if you please shew your strongest argumets for your Roman catholik church as you cal her and her definitive sentences Or procede if you think good to some other grounds and mayn controversies between us Onely be advertised to folow the good counsel of him whom you count the Rock of your faith If any man speak let him speak as the words of God 1. Pet. 4. 11. There being no reply
may recover your self from your imnâ—nent precipitium that dying out of the church of God you doe not eternally burne in the quenchless flames from Justice hall Julie 24 1613. Iohn Aynsworth To this letter H. A. gave no answer but exspected the promised large reply from I. A. which now followeth as the third in defense of the Church of Rome To Mr Henry Aynsworth at Amsterdam 6. 16. Ierem. State super vias et videte et interrogate de semitis antiquis quae sit via bona et ambulate in eâ et invenietis refrigerium animabus vestris ALthough your replie was slight and wilie rather seeking to transfer the questioÌ„ then to examin it to the true ground bespangling the rough rugge of your doctrine with multiplicitie of wrested places of holy scripture which makes me fitly resemble you to some AEthiopian behanged all over eares â—yes nose lippes and armes with Jewels and pearles that by their lustre beautie and misplacing makes the Nigroes fowllness the uglier Yet of such importance is the decision of this question being the keye and Master-spring to all the other doctrinall and controversall questions of religioÌ„ That howsoever your exploded doctrine and shuffling replication needes no answer being like a Comet that consumeth it self yet to complie with the worth of the question and to satisfy your followers desires I have once agayne returned you an answer In which I will showe that your reasons being rather seming reflections then true beames as you say of the word of God doe vanish of themselves 2. I wil prove that the true indeficient rule of our faith is not onely the written word of God but also the unwritten word of God traditioÌ„ the authoritie of the church of God in Councels â— Fathers is the ultimate decyder of all matters of controversie 3. I will show how my reasons for all your pretended answers remaine in full force 4 I wil prove that in your opinion you walk in a virious circle proâ—â— iâ— the self same by the 〈◊〉 the word of God by the privat spirit and the private spirit by the word of God 5 I wilâ— defend our Catholick opinion to be free from any such circular and râ—diculous proof 6 I 〈◊〉 show the Popes definitive sentence togither with a generall Court 〈◊〉 atleast to be a firme and an assured groundwork rock 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 7 And lastly I wil demonstrate to you or to any indifferent judgment that your building is on sands or spâ—ders â—â—ks your arcâ—uÌ„â—â— and resâ—â—uâ—â—oÌ„ of your faith at the last day of judgment to be groundless and fuâ—l of feare 8 First then to begin with your reasons which 〈◊〉 I maintâ—yne to be nothing els but aâ—â—er aâ—â—ous of scripture fâ—â—sty applyed I do think it 〈◊〉 before I answere your reasons grounded on the bareterts of scripture to signifie what a worthy most reverend esâ—eme we have of the scriptures and of each part of them We reverence them as Gods holy word derived from the fulness of truth â—â—e hold this volume worâ—â—â— to be meditated on day and night Jos. 1 8 Psalm 1 2 〈◊〉 hold it as seven times refined sâ—â—ver Psal. 11 7. A most cleare light illuminating our eyes Psal. 8 8 that it is a light 〈◊〉 our steppes Psal. 1. 8. â—2 v 105 130. 140. Wee hold all the holy scriptures to be most just 8. 8. Prov. to be a frerie speech and buckler of defense We also defend that the holy scriptures are diligently to be searched unto Joh. 5 39. â—â—om 1. 1. â—â—om 15 4. that whatsoever is writt in them is writ to our edificatioÌ„ that all the scriptures are profitable unto us 2 â—un 3 16 2. Pet. 1 21. that men delivered this scripture inspired by the holy Ghost Yet wee hold also though we worthâ—ly esteeme of them yet wee can not â—â—clude the eâ—plications of the holy church in the holy Fathers and Councels guided and directed by the self same truth And S. Augustin did oppose by the authoritie of the holy fathers his predecessors against Pe lagius and other â—ereticks saying â—ragâ—lis â—t arguta eorum novitas eâ—c The weake and wâ—â—â— noveltiâ— of hereticks is to be coâ—fâ—nÌ„ded by the authoritie of holy Fathers and a little after this great Doctor and holy Fatherâ— acknowledged by Calvin himself to be the faithful wriness of antiquitiâ— 4. 〈◊〉 stitut â— 14 sess 25 and Bâ—za calls him the Prince of aâ— Divines concerning dogmaticall poâ—â—cis in c. 3. â—â—om v. 12 as if on purpose he did answer your barbarous contempt of them calling them dust and athes â—et onely in regard of their mortaliâ—e as the scriptures calles them but when the vniforme consent of the Fathers Greek and Latin was objected against â—â—u What saâ—es D. Augustin shall light be darkness and darkness light that 〈◊〉 aclestius Julia should on ly see and that Hyllarie Greg. Ambâ—â—se â—ier August should bâ— blyndâ— So wee see how two worthy champions of yours hath raised S. August a Samnâ—l 〈◊〉 confound a 〈◊〉 not at Endor but at Amsterdam â— But wheras by your submission you would seemâ— to 〈◊〉 amâ—nd 〈◊〉 your 〈◊〉 that you 〈◊〉 thâ—re be a thoâ—â—aâ—d of theÌ„ that I sa◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that you preâ—â—â— for 〈◊〉 trutâ— and holyness before 〈◊〉 For if you understand this of the 〈◊〉 fathers before 〈◊〉 I proâ—â— that you cannot 〈◊〉 that without â— visard to 〈◊〉 your 〈◊〉 since I wil prove that in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dogmatical 〈◊〉 they differ from you and so by your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—inpeere except you will be wilfully blind they 〈…〉 before you If you understand Jewel 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. the Protestant Doctors these in truth by your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 neyther doe or can prefer before your self since by your 〈…〉 have no true church as I heare you teach against Mr. 〈◊〉 and so there difference must rather be hereticall then 〈◊〉 and if it be a true church why make you a schâ—mâ— in dâ—parting from them Now to come to the solution of your arguments if there were any There be 4 â—n number cited as you saye grounded on the holy scriptures but not one appearing in substance or in the true sense of the scriptures First you object out of Deut. â— 32. Keep and doe that 〈…〉 God commanded you â—e shall neyther 〈◊〉 to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the 〈◊〉 but by that our Lord God commaunded you 〈◊〉 you 〈…〉 What can you inferr hence but that the lawe ought strictly to be kept and that we â—ught neyther to adde or to take from the 10 commandements that is to make the 10. commandements 〈◊〉 oâ— superaâ—undant what is this to your purpose to prove that the written word alone is sufficient to decyde all controversâ—es For as here 〈◊〉 testification of the law or â—rpâ—icatiâ—n of the law was 〈◊〉 And that it was the office of the Preists to explicate the 〈◊〉 of the law appâ—ares Deut. 1â— v. 8 2 Paral. 19 1â— 2
though we should graunt that Elias did think himself left alone in Israel yet Almightie God did answer him I wil leave 7. thowsand men in Israel that have not bowed their knees to Bâ—al 50. I answer that Esay the Prophet in his first chapter dooth use the self same fiâ—ure of Synâ—â—hdâ—che also the self same manner of speech is vsed the 4. â—eg 21. For Manasses himself did râ—pent and redeeme mâ—nn and many were never seduced so understand that also of the Prophet here 51. That of which Azarias dooth prophetise 2 Paral. 15. is to be understood of the Israelites that were dificient and not of the Jewes that were constant I graunt also that at the coÌ„ming of our Saviour the church was but a little one yet I say it was preserved in Marie Joseph Zacharie Elizabeth and Anna the Prophetess In just Simeon and the Pastors 52. That of Daniel the 9. the host and sacrifice shall faile is to be understood of the destruction of Hierusalâ—m and the câ—â—â—ing of the Jewish sacrifice Luk. 18. Our Saviour doth not absolutely speak of faith but of an external faith and of an excellent faith 2 Thes. 2. Is to be vnderstood the particular departing of Antichrist and his â—rew from the church And so by these grounds to the usual objections against the perpetuall visibilitie of Gods church wee may answer any thing that hath bene or may be produced 53. Yet to confirm this truth with one short reason I argue thus This church of God if it must be invisible Eyther it must begin to be invisible in the time of peace or in the time of persecution in the time of peace there was no opposition to make her invisible in the tyme of persecution no bodie could persecute an invisible thing 54. Now wheras you sayd you show how the labyrinth of my religion leadeth to the Pope the center of our circle True it is I sayd the vltimate resolution of our religion is to be resolved into the veracitie of God revealing as into the formal causâ— and into the authoritie of the church as into the applying â—ause And I am glad you have traâ—ed me not to your heretical quicksands but to S. Peters rock 55. And that you may see the resolution of my religion is no other but that of S. Cyprian lib de unitate Eccles. where he compares â—ou in regard of the church of Rome as Beames in regard of the sun as boughes in regard of the tree as a river in regard of the fountayn So that he concludes he that separates himself from the church of God he must needs vanish fade and drie up in that they lack their origen by which all unitie is preserved 55. I gave you 2 or three instances to show how the word of God might in a divers kind depend of the Church and the church of the word of God as we prove the self same a priori et a posteriori the operation of the stone or herb depends of the skil and knowledge of the herbalist and lapidarie and their skil and knowledge depends of the innated and inward proprietie of the stone and herbe For neyther can have his effect without mutual help of both except chance which is no regular action be the applier and so I take you have thalked your self a way to a ridiculous building without foundatioÌ„ as I shall shew anone 56. You answer nothing to this but that I prove out of natural philosophie as though divinitie though it excels is not concordant to natural reason whereas we can beleeve nothing that we see implies by the light of naturall reason 57. To the places that you object of the 1. of Timoth. 1 3. rather proves against you then makes for you For it showes all the while that she did not reach otherwise to the church she remained sound And that which you cite 1. Tim 3 15. would make you trest salue if you did daily consider it For there he warnes her that she might conforme her conversation to the house of God the pillar of truth And though the text sayes in the house of God yet it must be understood in the particular church that must have reference to that place as wee shall prove hereafter where S. Peter did establish his chaire Ioh. 14 16. Mat. 16. Math. 28 Ephes. 4 Ioh. 17. Luc. 22. Psal. 2. Ephâ—s 2. 58. When you seeme to drawe out of my speech that I denie for my witness the spirit of God is your error and fraude For I hold that which is taught out of these places 1 Cor 2. 10 11. Iob. 28 2 13 22. c. to signifie nothing else but that the holy Ghost teacheth the church in all truth and her members with reference to her and my private spirit I ought not to follow so that if I might be your Pilote I would save you from that bottomlesse gulphe that ghaspes to receive your erroneous soule 59. St. Augustines authoritie you let slip denying him a fit Maister to follow you say he might retractate this but neither you doe nor can show that he did retractate it 60. As for S. Augustines opposition to S. Hierome it was in some smal matter and not in a matter defined vp the consent of the church 61. My second Argument was this in substance Major That which is hard and for occurring places almost inexplicable cannot be to the rud ignorant at least a certain ground of faith Mmor But the scriptures of themselves are thus Conclusion go the scriptures by themselves can not bee a certaine and infallible rule of saith to the ignorant and rude at least 62. My major propositioÌ„ is most certain For a rule must be known and certaine and more fit to our capacitie to bee conceived then that which is to be ruled and certefied therby 63. My Mmor also I prove both in regard of many seeming contradictions of the Hebraimes nature of things therin contained being high misteries 64. In answering of this Argument you say some thinges are hard in the scriptures I proved this difficultie and hardnes was in principal matters which I proved out of the second of S. Peter 3. 16. Our most deare brother Paul according to his wisdome given hâ—m hath written to you as also in all his epistles speaking of them in these things in which are certain thiâ—gs hard which the unlearned unstable deprave as also the rest of thâ— scrâ—pâ—ures to their own destructio Hence is gathered that not on ly the places of S. Pâ—ul touchiâ—g vocation justification sanctification predestination and â—â—prâ—bation inâ—â—pâ—icating which pointes S. Paul is most frequent but also any other place is subject to be depraved as the word implies as also the rest of the scriptures And S. August in his book de fide et operibus c. 14 showes that one of the cheife matters they did deprave was about justifying by faith And I showed you here as erring a little
Now to folow your waÌ„dringes What dooth Gal 1. 8. say against that I set down The word besides meaneth as you think contrary to and not more then they had receaved because he forbidds not any explication or true gloss c. I answer you weary your selfe and others to prove that which none denyeth Explications of Gods law by the mouth of his ministers are allowed of God Nehem. 8. 8. these are not additions such as God forbiddes Galat. 3. 15. Our question is of other or moe lawes or doctrines then God hath taught And vnto those which the Prophets had writteÌ„ and Paul with the other Apostles taught none might be added For he kept back nothing that was profitable but taught the whole counsel of God Act. 20. 20. 27. so then whatsoever men could add more or besides was not profitable neyther any of Gods counsel therefore it was contrary and so may be put among Popes traditions For their doctrines and traditions are as evidently contrary to Gods word as darknes is to light Such be your image worship contrary to Exo. 20. 4. your praying to creatures contrary to Mat 4. 10. Rom. 1. 25. service in a barbarous vnknowen tongue contrary to 1 Cor. 14. 11 16. 28. robbing the people of the chalice in the sacrament contrary to Mat. 26. 27. justification by mens works contrary to Rom. 3. 20. 22. 24. and 4. 2 3 c. and many other idolatrous observations as plainly contrary to Gods law ever vvere the abominations of the heathen Finally Chrysostome a Doctor whome you rely vpon sayth that Paul preferreth the scriptures before Angels from heaven Here then if you wil beleeve him is no place at al for vnwritteÌ„ traditions Whereas you bring Rom. 16. 17. to shew that para meaneth contrary no man denyeth it but that it signifieth no more then contrary in your sense you prove not In Rom. 1. 25. you may see parâ— ton ktisantâ— meaneth any thing â—â—sides the creator onely But our strife was not about para or Gal. â— You 〈◊〉 as the Prophets additions to Moses law were Gods so the churches definitions are Gods not mans I deny your 〈◊〉 the churches additionâ— which you call definitions are not Gods as the Prophets writings 〈◊〉 were added to Moses books you are not farr froÌ„ blasphemie in making such a comparison If that were true you might read and expound as authentick scriptures your churches additions and Popes traditions as Christ read Esaias the Prophet and expounded hiâ— in the synagogue Luk. 4. 1â— 21. The proofs you would bring are Luk. 10. 16. he that heareth you heareth me c. Mat. 18. 1â— 18. tel the church c. Deut. â—9 15. or 〈◊〉 they shall stand before the Lord before the Preists c. I answer these scriptures shewe not that they might add any thing to the word of God but they prove the coÌ„trary For they were sent to preach the Gospel Mark 16. 15. that was Gods word not any creatures Thes 2 2. 4. 13. So they were not additions not definitions of their own such as your church makes Also the Preists were bound to teach Gods lawes not their owne Ezek. 44. 24. And so the hearing of them that teach Gods word is the hearing of God himself in his ministers But the contrary to hear the churches traditions is not to hear God for they were many against God as you may see Mark â— 3. 4. 9. 10. c. For els behold what strange doctrine you wil bring in viz. that everie church yea every preist and minister may make additions to Gods law and the people must be bound so to receive them as Gods word Here to helpe your selfe you retire to your old skonce saying it is true of particular churches but so farr as their doctrine accordeth with the Somane catholick church A meer fiction of your own head what one title of Gods word doo you or can you bring for this stuft did Christin Luk. 10. 16. speak to the church of Rome more then to the Church of Corinch Ephesus or any other you make your Roman Church an idol by putting her in Gods place to give lawes you make her a monster whiles being a particular Church you proclaym her for the catholik that is vniversal Church And her doctrine if it accord not with Christs as it dooth not is with her to be abhorred and accursed Gal. 1. 8. By this which hath bene sayd let the prudent judge how soundly you haue proved that any other word or doctrine then Gods may be brought into the Church for a ground of our faith which was the first thing in controversie The 2. part that you are to prove as you say is that the rule of our faith is not onely the written word but jointly the unwritten word of God tradition and the authority of the Church councils fathers is the ultimate decider of all matters of controversie In this assertion you confasedly shuffle togither for your advantage the church councels fathers By the Church you mean your Romish Church which is none of Christs and therefore can judge no Christian controversie Councils and fathers are named but for a show For â—oâ— regard nothing that Councils or Fathers say vnless your Pope approve it On the contrary I hold that Gods written word is to be the rule of our faith and by it all churches Councils Fathers are to be tried whether they be of God or no. But let us heaâ— your proofe That which was say youâ— the total rule of our faith before the written word of God man be wel the partial rule of our faith after where the written word of God dooth not sufficiently cruâ—â—ss diverse mysteries of us to ve beleeved But tradition was a sufficient and total rule of our faith till Moyses time the first 〈◊〉 of the holy Ghost Therfore traditioÌ„ now together with the written word is a sufficient rule of our faith The firâ— prop. you say 〈◊〉 proved the second you â—aâ— is graunted by me I answer If the writings of God were as dark and deceitfull as is this your writing it were woe with vs all In the first proposition you say it may well be the partiall rule of our faith in the conclusion you say it to so If I should say It may wâ—ll be your argument is deceytfull and conclude therefore it is deceâ—tfull would you graunt the conclusion yet is it truer then yours For that which was a rule before may be a rule still if it please God so to continue it this you need not labour to prove But that which was a râ—â—â— before neyther may nor can be a rule still when God hath taken it away put another in the sted And this is the very truth if you would receive it For before Gods law was written it was spoken and by speech from the mouth of holy persons it was to be learned But now it is written oâ—
Iam. 2. 14. 17. 20. from that men fall and there is the faith of Gods elect Tit. 1. 1. and this faith justifieth Rom. 4. 3. 5. 5. 1. and from it men never fall finally They may fall into syn by infirmity but shall not be cast off for the Lord putteth under his hand Psal. 37. 24. yea though they fall seven times yet they rise agayn but the vvicked fall into mischief Prov. 24. 16. This is my faith and your contrary Popish heresies I abhorr You deny not but your Popes may be reprobates and damned in hel I trow then hel gates doo prevayl against them and so the promise in Mat. 16. 18. perteyns not vnto them You except the Divil prevayls not against the Pope as he is head of the church as he defines e◠cathedra Yes doubtless therein he most prevayls against him because he allures him into Christs place and so makes him Antichrist And if you had the mind of Christ you would no more regard vvhat Apolluon the P. of Rome defineth ex cathedra unless he could prove it by the holy scriptures then what Apollo the D. of Delphos divined ex tripode 4. Your fourth shew from Peters confirming his brethren being confuted by scriptures Act. 14. 22. and 15. 41. 32. c. you now say the other Apostles confirmed not as the supreme pastor not as the head of the church by office I answer neyther did Peter so if you add that to your wrested text God will reprove you Prov. 30. 6. and your humane testimonies vvhich you abuse also shall not save you You digress to entwite me with gross corruption of the text for Englishing presbyteros an Elder I am loth to folow your outroades onely let me tel you that you check herein your authentik Latin translation which turneth it Senior and Major nat◠and in your divinitie Englishing both Cohen Hiereus a Preist and Zaken Presbuteros a Preist as if these were one you deceiv the simple with a sophistical aequivocatiō And you may as wel say the Apostles were idiots because they are caled idiotai Act. 4. 13. as say Christs ministers are Preists vnderstanding sacrificing Preists because they are caled Presbyteri 5. You daily agayn about Peters feet first washed as some suppose I let you alone vvith your fansie let the reader judge whither it be a fit proof for his headship 6. So for Peters martyrdome vvhence you conclude it was promised to Peter to be head of the church It is a bold untruth the text sayth no such words proveth no such thing 7. Your 7. show was gathered also from a false translation restrayning they began Act. 2. 4. to Peter as if he began which being but a guess you now shrink from that to the next passage in v. 14 c. where from Peters sermon you would prove him head of the church It is a vvorld to see vvhat shifts you are driven to the very naming of them is to all wise men ridiculous But if Peter for first preaching was head of the church that Pope vvhich first left preaching was the head of the Beast and so all your unpreaching Popes at least are Antichrists You graunt agayn that the first miracle which you uncertainly supposed S. Peter vvrought Act. 2. 11. dooth not solely convince what you would herein I beleeve you But I marvel at your discretion that think a number of futilous and vvorthless arguments being heaped togither would perswade any vnto popery unless they be such as are spoken of Prov. 9. 16. who so is simple let him come hither And here you are too lavish of your tongue in saying I cannot deny but our Saviour caleth Peter the rock first washeth his feet that Peter booth the first miracles c. I denyed the first and you cannot prove the latter Though were they al granted for Peter yet your applying them to your Pope is altogither groundless The first excommunication by Peter inferrs you think that he was head Before you urged the act which being proved insufficient now yee flee to the first doing of the act At the most this sheweth but primacie in order which I graunted seing Paul and others did the like But by your manner of reasoning vvhosoever dooth any thing first shall be head of the church And why I pray you by like reason should not those Popes that first practised Simony sorcerie and hypocrisie be heads of the man of syn You leav it for the reader to judge whither all these reasons togither shew not that Peter was rock and head of the church I also referr it to judgment And if your vayn shewes for Peter be not sound proofs for your Pope then he is left naked as the heath in the wildernes Ier. 17. 6. I proved by the scriptures Mat. 28. 18. 19. 20. Ioh. 20. 21. 22. 23. Act. 2. 4. that the other Apostles had equal office charge and power vvith Peter himself you answer the places prove nothing and if ought it is equality of order not of jurisdiction Thus you resist the truth vvithout reason it vvere vvell if you would add doctrine to your lips When all the Apostles are sent by the power of Christ vvith like vvords and authority vvhen the rest as Paul doo whatsoever Peter himself did in word prayer Sacraments censures miracles c. you barely say they vvere not equall in jurisdiction You vveary me vvith your own words and repetitions without proof Seing Gods vvord moves you not let me trie vvhat man 's will doo The rest of the Apostles sayth one of your Doctors vvere verily the same that Peter vvas indued vvith equal participation of honor and of power Being blamed for your making Peter head and rock of the church vvhich are Christs peculiar titles You answer he is the ministerial subordinat head to Christ as Christ is the foundation 1 Cor. 3. 11. yet the Apostles are foundations Eph 2. 20. I answer first Gods word no where caleth Peter the head and vvhy will you be vviser then God Secondly the Apostles because they layd the foundation vvhich vvas Christ as Paul sheweth 1. Cor. 3 10. 11. therfore the Church is sayd to be built upon their foundation Eph. 2. 20. And in this they vvere equal if any excelled it vvas Paul who laboured in laying the foundation more then the rest 2 Cor. 12. 11. 1 Cor. 15. 10. In this sense if you speak of ministerial head that by the ministery of the word Peter preached the head Christ the thing is true but the phrase is not good it vvas true in Paul also as much as Peter yea in all the Apostles and thus all Christs ministers at this day minister and preach him the head vvhich the Pope dooth not But you feign a thing which never vvas that Christ should substitute Peter for head in his place absence no scripture tells
compared vvith Tob. 15. 18. 1. Maccab. 6. 16. vvith 2. Mac. 1. 16. 2. Macc. 1. 19. vvith 2. King 25. Iudith 9. 2. 3. vvith Gen. 49. 5. 6. Esth. apopcryph 12. 5. 6. vvith Esth. can 6. 3. and 3. 2. Esth. apoc 11. 2. vvith Esth. can 2. 16. besides their Popes determinations for making and vvorshiping of similitudes or images of silver and gold wood and stone hethenlike for having the vvorship of God and scriptures in a barbarous tongue vvhich the people understand not and many the like are expressly contrary to the commandements of God as any man of common judgment may evidently preceive yea some of their Popes have repeled the decrees one of another as before hath been manifested Eightly The summ of our faith learned from holy scriptures is to trust on God and Christ alone for mercy and salvation not on creatures as Angels and souls of men nor on our selves or humane merits vvhereby vve resting on God have and doo profess to have ful assurance of our salvation and so have peace of conscience in life and death But Popish faith learned by tradition teacheth men not to trust on God and Christ alone but on the intercession of creatures and Pardons of Popes and on their own merits also for salvatioÌ„ vvhereby their coÌ„sciences accusing them they neyther have nor profess to have such peace by full assurance that they are heyres of God unto salvation as vve nay they rage against this truth as against an heresie Ninthly The holy scriptures vvhich vve rest vpon are of such power and authority that many thowsands in their ages have given their lives for the defense of them and of the things taught onely in them yea even hereticks have dyed for things vvhich they have erroneously thought to be in the scriptures reveled But for Papists they cannot shew many if any that have vvillingly given their lives for such doctrines as have onely bene taught by men by unwritten popish tradition and not in their judgment by the prophetical and Apostolical scriptures Tenthly the Holy scriptures vvhich are the rule of our faith have prophesies of things to come and due accomplishments of the prophesies as they vvere foretold vvhereby vve are confirmed of the truth and infallibility of those vvritings But the vvritings of Doctors Councils Popes on vvhich Papists rely are destitute of this confirmation Neyther dooth the Pope use to prophesie though it vvere necessary if he vvould as Christs vicar obtrude his ovvn decrees for divine oracles seing the testimony of Iesus is the spirit of prophesie as the Angel sayd Rev. 19. 10. Nay rather the prophesies of scripture plainly foreshew the Church of Rome to be the whore of Babylon and her Lord the Pope to be Antichrist Which he fearing it wil come to light forbiddeth therfore his subjects the reading of Gods book Eleventhly Papists themselves are forced in disputing against Iewes which were once Gods church and from which they themselves with us received the books of Moses and the Prophets to use onely the holy scriptures and prophesies to convince them for their Romish church traditions the Iewes doo not regard With these scriptures the Papists doo rightly think the Iewes are sufficiently convicted Even so doo we much more having the scriptures of the new Testament added to the old rightly hold it sufficient to convince the Papists by the written vvord vvhich they acknowledge to be of God and they have no more reason to refuse this and draw us to their Popes decretals then the Iewes have to refuse the Bible and draw men to their high preists Rabbies and Thalmuds or the Turkes to their Alkoran 12. Finally grace vvisdom and divine majesty appeareth in the holy scriptures to all that read them except they have a reprobate sense even by the confession of our adversaries But no such vvisdom grace or majesty appeareth in Popes decrétals more then in other humane vvritings yea they are full of ignorance grossnes barbarisme error favouring of the Popes private spirit as any of understanding unless they be the Popes bondmen vvil confess and no singular grace appeareth in them more then in the books of H. N. or Alkoran of Mahomet For all vvhich and sundry other like reasons vvhich might be alleged every reasonable infidel vvhom God vvill save vvill rather incline to our grounds of ancient Christianity then to the other of late Iesuitisme or Popery Let him that readeth consider and give sentence By this vvhich hath bene vvritten you may see M. I. A. that we fly not for proof to our privat spirit as you often slander us but we say a Papist may be couvinced by the wisdome and majesty of God shining in the scriptures and other arguments forementioned more easily then an Atheist can be convinced by the wisdom and majesty of God shining in the creatures And if this later were sufficient by th'Apostles testimony to condemn the hethens the former must needs be more sufficient to condemn you especially seing you confess the scriptures to be of GOD vvhereas the Atheist will not confess the world to be of God and yet you dare not abide the trial of your religion by this book of God without your own traditions and decrees also Whereas if you graunt a Turk to be tried by the Bible and his Alkoran or a Iew to be tried by the Prophets and his Thalmud you will betray all Christianity And when one ask you a reason vvhy you beleeve the scriptures or any doctrine to be of God you answer that extrinsiâ—ally that is outwardly and in respect of your selves it is because your church that is the Pope vvho is head of your church telleth you so and not by your own private spirit Which is as if one should ask vvhy you beleeve the sun to be the light of the vvorld and you should answer extrinsecally because the Pope tells you so and not because of any private sight or discerning in your own eyes Ask you agayn vvhither you know the Pope to be a man of God furnished vvith his grace and spirit that he cannot deceive you You answer we hold not that the Pope is necessarily indued with Gods holy grace for in matter of faâ—t he may syn as wel as any other Ask you agayn how then you trust such vile ungracious Popes as many have been by your own mens testimony you answer you hold the Pope hath a necessary assistance of the holy Ghost as he defines ex cathedra out of his chayr as the head of the church Ask you a proof of this paradox and you cannot bring any one line of Gods holy scriptures to confirme it you can neythâ—r find the Pope nor his chayr there mentioned any more then Mahomâ—t or the Alkoran Then you flee to late humane testimonies of Doctors Fathers Councils vvhich also you vvrest Yet ask you vvhither those Doctors vvere necessarily indued vvith the spirit of God could not