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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A42884	A true and lively character of a right communicating church-member briefely laid down in eighteen severall arguments: proving an absolute necessity of separating, not only, from all that are openly prophane, but from such also, who have not some visible, that is to say, probable worke of the sanctifying spirit upon them. By Iohn Gobert Master of Arts, and minister of the Gospel.	Gobert, John.	1650 (1650)	Wing G904B; ESTC R217419	24,327	70

can follow him ergo to gather a Church of such as are not visible Saints is not lawfull The major proposition is apparent because wee are bound to become followers of him as deare children Ephes 5. 1. Paul that great Archi●●ct of the Churches of the Gentiles would have the Corinthians follow him as he followed Christ 1 Cor. 1. 11. And he h●th l●ft us an example that we should follow his steps 1 P●t 2 21. And in this as in other practices for two causes First 'T is the duty of such as are Church-gatherers to separate the pretious from the vile Secondly Because the Apostles did in this particular work exactly follow Christs example 1 P●t 2. 5. 1 Cor. 1 2 9. 2 Cor. 6. 15 16. Acts 2. 41 42. If it be excepted against in answer to the major proposition that 't is not f●ll and sufficient that Christs example is not though imitable yet in this cause at all binding the Churches in gathering their members and the reason they will alledge is that so Prelacy and Presbytery may come in for a jus d●vinum in matter of Church-government for that they also can fetch examples from the Scripture to warrant their cause against all opponents to which is againe replyed negando wee deny that there is any such example as this in all the Scripture to warrant a jus divinum either for Presbytery or Prelacy because we are to distinguish betweene Christs a●● the Apostles examples such as may be called occasion all arising onely from circumstance of time perfers and places not simply binding but are to the present Church as arbitrary and prudentiall wayes to use and refuse as they see cause and examples of this kinde are nothing materiall for a jus divinum though they be derived from Scripture A second sort of examples are such as may be called morall such as hold forth duties and graces which ought to be in Christians of this nature is the subject matter we now speak of and are binding to all who desire to keepe faith and a good conscience so that the major prop●si●ion will stand valid against all opposers For the proofe of the minor we need goe no further then to Christs 12. Apostles an exact pattern of all Churches which ought to be under the New Testament when all were Saints to the eye of others J●das not once suspected by any of the eleven Secondly We argue from the severall ends of gathering Churches which are 1. That God may be glorified in his Saints 2. That such as be gathered may be further edified and built up 3. That others may be daily added to the Churches alread gathered that an unqualified Church gathering of such as have been hitherto for the most part in this Nation is repugnant to all these ends will be abundantly proved And first an argument in generall viz. as a gatherig of Church-members not visibly holy is repugnant to all these ends thus Whatsoever is opposite and repugnant to those ends for which Churches are to be gather●d is not in the gathering of them to be admitted or practised but to gather Church-members other then of visible Saints i● repugnant to the ends for which Churches are to be gathered therefore to gather Churches of members not visibly holy is not to be practised The major proposi●ion will be granted by all parties The minor remaineth to be proved by parts First That any other gathering then such as are visibly holy is repugnant to Gods honou● thus Whosoever are not inabled by the Spirit in some measure to shew forth the vertues which God hath given them all such are most unfit to be gathered into Church-fellowship for the proofe hereof see 1 Pet. 2. 9. But men either openly scandalous or meerely civill and meerly civill we call not only such as have no principle of Religion in them but such also as are barely taught of men by way of catechizing I say such canno● shew forth their vertues therefore they are not to be gathered into Church fellowship If any will except against the d●scription of a civ●ll honest man a●●● who hath in him and is able ●o answer to the grounds of Religion 〈…〉 z how such a man can be c●l●d one meerly civill W 〈…〉 very well because the Scripture will no where warrant any middle betweene a civill man and a Saint 1 Cor. Chap. 1. to verse 9. is a men sed proofe of this if a man be call●d to be a Saint we or not to understand of an outward call but such as call as wher●b● they are pro●a●ly at least sanct●fied in Christ Jesus and therefore the Apostle putteth these two together s●nctified in Christ Jesus and Saints by calling to sh●w that none are to goe for Saints or be counted Church members which have not b●side the bare knowledge of the grounds of Religion some worke of the Spirit on them see for this in John 17 20 21. whence we may briefly thus argue All that professeth Christ ought to be one among themselves as Christ is one with the Father but such kind● of members viz. men mee●ly civill or openly scandalous cannot 〈…〉 one with the Saints as Christ is one with the Father therefore suc●●●e not to be taken in for Church-members As to the proposition there will be no other evasion for answer then to say that the place forecited is to be understood of Saints invisibly holy such as may be endued with holinesse though not gathered into Church-fellowship to which thus First in this answer is a fallacy we call a peti●io principii or begging of the question for it runs upon this supposall that there is such a Church-creature as a civill wel-catechized honest man and to make way for such a creature all Scriptures now which doe in their nature exclude are by supposing such an one to be brought by the opponent to uphold him but this remaineth yet to be prove● Secondly Against such an answer we urge the words of the Text and that in two respects 1. In respect of the nature of the union which the words hol● forth John 17. 21. That they may be all one as thou Father art in mee and I in thee that they may be also one in us that the world may believe that thou hast sent me And vers 23. I in them and thou in mee that they may be made perfect in one and that the world may know that thou hast sent me hast loved them as thou hast loved me whence wee first argue Whatsoever union in the Church doe not hold a strict and a speciall or specificall if I may so speake resemblance to that most blessed and sacred union which is between the Father and the Son that is not the union commended or intended by our Saviour in this Scripture but to say that Christ in holding forth an union which ought to be in the Church understood it only of an internall or spirituall union and not also of an externall doth

through errour of Doctrine that ought not now in our time of reformation to be practised but to gather Church-members other h●n of such as are v●sibly holy doth this it magnifi●th and setteth up errors of D●ctrine and mistakes of former ages Ergo are not now to be practised The major I suppose will be undeniably granted The Minor is proved by instance vide conce●ning Baptisme the Doctrina about not onely the esse but the absolute necessity of Infants Baptisme have as it is knowne to all beene the cause in former ages of taking every one into Church-fellowship witnesse the Primitive times if we may call them Primitive wherein Augustine Ambrose Chrysostome the Gregorys and such famous worthies lived it is well known to all who have read their works that those most godly and ze●lous Worthies not having the Light which we have did unanimousl● hold that Baptisme made Infants Christians and that children u●baptized could not be saved Neither in this Tenent do the Papists at all erre from the Doctrine of the Antients Su●table though happily not the same altogether was the Episcopall Tenent That Baptisme was not onely a seal as circumcision was to which this of Baptisme succeeded but a means also to receive grace whence it wa● g●●erally believed that Infant● did receive such a tincture such an indeluble character and stamp of holinesse in the Ordinance that mens particular failings as they called them though this were no other then grosse sin did no whit unchristianize but a little blemish their Christianity Whence millions are so besotted that they believe that as their fathers and mothers in the course of nature have made them men and women the Minister at the Font made them Christians Now if all upon this notion were taken in for Church-members and the ground of all this in these dayes of light be ●ound extreamly faulty what reason but the building on such an unsure foundation erected should be now demolished and other and better Members upon further Gospell discoveries to be taken in The thirteenth Ar●ument is t●ken from the great scandall which a Church otherwise gathered giveth our adversaries the Papists thu● That which maketh the Protestants justly excepted against and taxed by the Papists to be a company of grosse and Athiesticall Libertines that is not by any means to be allowed but to gather a Church of common Protestants or of such as are but barely catechised is to make all Protestants by the Papists to be so accounted Ergo to gather members of other than of such as are visibly holy is not to be allowed The major being granted The minor is thus proved That Profession the profes●ors whereof doe come short of Papists in point of practise as touching the Religion they professe that profession doe scandalize the Papists and consequently gives them cause to thinke that all such professors are but grosse and Atheisticall Libertines but this doe a mixture in gathering Church-members it makes them come short of Papists in point of practise as touching the Religion they professe Ergo it makes the Papist to think that the Protestants are a company of grosse and Atheisticall Libertines and consequently such a Church-gathering is not to be allowed The major being granted The minor is proved by instance viz. By comparing the common protestant and the papist together in practicall part of Religion in which of these most religious forwardness is to be discerned and to begin with the papists let him be but meerly catechised in the principles of his owne Religion he hath in many things the start and precedency above the common protestant First in matter of understanding it is more furnished by far I say not better As for the co●mon protestant he is seen but in his Creed whereas the other is taught in the doctrine of 7 Sacraments Secondly his beliefe is racked and screwed up to a farre higher pitch than is the Protestants who is ordinarily accused and thought of by them to be a company of brutish and naturall men to goe no further in their beliefe then to sence and reason as in matter of their carnall presence Thirdly the papist will doe much more for his profession tha● the common sort of protestants will doe for theirs As for the papist he will yeeld his outward man to fasting and all kind of pennance and his heart and inward man though to an erroneous yet to an auricular confession whereas the common protestant makes his religion to consist for the most part in the bare deniall of all this But will some object And doe not your visibly holy Saint you speak of denie all these We answer Yea or else he cannot be in his belief any other than a Papist or worse But now observe and yee shall see these visibly holy members as farre as the judgment of charitie will give them for to have that by vertue of a speciall and inward call for which the Papists doe undertake all these works For let papists but retain the true doctrine of their religion and they are taught that all the Sacraments serve but as means to convey grace to such as are in grace to speake in their owne phrase and that by vertue of that they call a foederall Covenant as infant Baptisme where the party baptized cannot ponere obicem or to such as either retaine or at least recover their first grace Now I say if this holy visibly member can wrarantably prove as he may well how that God worketh both how and when and where he pleaseth without these he hath both in his belief and life also proved himself to be more excellent than his neighbour which is the superstitious Papist and the common Protestant The fourteenth Argument is taken from the disgrace which unqualified members doe bring upon members better qualified thus Whatsoever causeth the gifts and graces of the best qualified to be mis-called and mis-censured or mis-construed that in gathering Church-members is not to be practised but to take in members not visibly holy causeth the gifts and graces of the best qualified to be mis-construed and ill spoken of Ergo the taking in members into Church-fellowship not visibly holy is not to be practised The major proposition being granted The minor is thus proved Whatsoever makes the gifts and graces of the best qualified to be counted of the non-discerning superfluous and more then need or which is worse a desire to be seene above others that makes their graces to be mis-called and mis-construed But the taking in of members not visibly holy doth this it makes the gifts and graces of the best qualified to be counted of the non-discerning superfluous and more then need or which is worse it makes them to be counted of such non-discerning spirits to desire only to be seen above others Ergo to take in such kind of members is not lawfull Both propositions will be soone granted if we consider the old axiome frustra fit per plura quod fieri potuit per