quarelling But aâ—ee herein yowr honest and true charitie M. D. Cole in hys first letter to the Bishope promiseth by the faith he beareth to God that he will yeld so farr as M. Iuel shall geaue him cause And he againe in the second letter â–ª to M. Iuell in most hartie and humble wyse desyreth hym to geaue eare vnto his sute and he speaketh so loulie and baselie that it may be wel marueiled why such a Catholike would submitt hym selfe vnto a protestant Yet this notwithstanding you which see further in other mens hartes then you can gather by any outward signe dare to speake it and that in print that for all M. D. Coles pretence yet in deede he went about quarelling And you speake not onlie for your selfe but you would haue other beleeue that M. Iuell allso was of the same opinion as though he had therefore made strange without further licence to shew furth the proufes for his doctrine because he had to do with a wayward and quarelling subiect Whereof you do fouly and vnworthely cause hym to be suspected â–ª as it doth clearly appeare by his answer to M. D. Coles first letter In which after he had declared the doubt of hys mynd whether without further liceÌ„ce he might safely geaue a rekonyng of his doctrine Not withstanding sayeth he for as much as I am persuaded that you charitablie desyre to be resolued I can allso charitablie be contented c. to conferr with you herein Wherefor truly Syr what so euer you be you be much to blame to report in such sort of D. Cole as neither by hym is to be gathered by the faith he oweth vnto God neither to M. Iuell ys persuaded as plainely appeareth by his letters Yf therefor D. Cole was not in such sense taken by M. Iuell as you suppose hym to haue ben receiued it is euident that as you vnderstode not the meanyng of the author of the Apologie so lykewyse you haue mistaken the mynd and saying of your Lord of Salisburie Which maketh me iustly to doubt whether you vnderstand your selfe in such matters as you haue enterprysed As in an other reason which you bring for M. Iuell it may be partly proued vntill I procede further Your reason is this In that he is orderlie called to the state of a Bishope he is in possession of the truth And therefor it were not reason he shold â—e requested first to shew his euidence What meane you then I pray you by possession of the truth Is the truth so ioyned vnto the Bishopericke of Sarum that he which is sett in possession of the landes ys straitwaies placed in the possession of the truth And because it is not so how ys M. Iuell at this daye more properly in the possession of the truth then he was seuen yeres past when he was out of all possession of land And if seuen yeres past he might haue ben required and nothing haue doubted to shew his euidence vnto a Catholike Bishope whâ— ys it against reason that at this daye for all his temporall honor he should do the lyke For allthough palace parkes reuenues seruantes horses and such lyke do make hym in the sight of the world more worthyer yet all the ryches and glorie of the world should not make hym by one iote the truer If the wyll or counsell of mightie Princes of the world or yf the consent of the commons of any realme were able to sett the studentes of diuinitie in the possession of the truth then not only such Princes or such commons might be called Lordes of the truth but allso the truth which is one in it selfe should be oftentymes changed euen as their myndes shoulde be altered whiche are letters and setters of it But the wysedome of God hath apoynted a better order And he hath geauen vnto his only-begoten and singularly welbeloued soun Ihesus Christ the nations of the world as his iust inheretance which yet is so geauen of the father that the soun by his pretiouse death hath truly deerly purchased it To take therefor the possession of the world which he might of right challenge for his obedience vnto death he sent furth his officers and Apostells and by his diuine power and shewing of miracles he placed those so few and so simple persons in the possession of hys landes and by sending vnto them all the giftes and graces of the holyghost he set them perfectly in the possession of hys truth as it ys writen when the holygost cummeth he shall teach you all truth Now that the possessioÌ„ of this truth might not be lost for euer after and that allthough the Apostells and Disciples should within few yeares depart from this world yet that such should neuer be to seekyng as might hold the possession of truth once taken therefor God which was able to performe it â–ª dyd apoynt in hys church some Apostles some Prophetes some Euangelistes other some Pastors and teachers vntill all we shall come and meete togeather in vnitie of faith and knowledge of the soun of God Such therefor as succeed the Apostells in their faith and places and such as haue coÌ„tinued in the possession of the truth euer sence Christ hytherto such also as keepe the Catholike tradition and priesthode in the most partes of Christendome are to be regarded and estemed as the right heires of the Apostles and Christ. But if in some corner of Christendome the old and auncient Bisshopes be dryuen out of their places and if a new religion be planted xvC yeres after Christ allthough it should continue without interruption in that one particular place vnto the worlds end yet could it be neuer rightly saied to haue the possession of truth by order No verely it hath not so much as the possession of place orderly and much lesse the possession of the truth For I pray yow what maÌ„ner of faith was he of whom M. Iuell succedeth in the palace of Sarum Or what order can yow number vp sence England was Christened of Bisshopes and Priestes inspired with the lyke confession of faith as now is for the tyme vsed Well Syr yet agayne if the order which any one Realme taketh be able to settle men in the possession of truth and if for the tyme of that order standyng no Bishope is to be required to shew his euidence how chaunseth it that in the disputatioÌ„ which was prepared at Westminster the catholike Bishopes which then were in possessioÌ„ were not yet permitted to enjoy their pruilege Or whi did your Bishopes now which then were out of office refuse to shew their euidences as thei were required As the church of Christ had hundred of yeares togeather vsed so dyd the Bisshopes and clergie of England obserue and keepe in their seruice and order of church what tyme you began to ryse and reason against them And whereas it was sufficient cause inowgh for them to beleiue and mainteine as thei
the same was then by our saying in her infancie which now is come as you report to her dotage And as infancie then dyd nothing preiudicate vnto her wysedome by which she was well able to gouerne and rule her childerne so her dotage now which is seen in the liffe of manie doth nothing excuse you for contempnyng your old mother If therefor now it may be well said in sundrie waies and senses that the church in the Apostells tyme was in a certen infancie what spryte moued you to make such a sense of it as against which you might vse your indignation without the matter and purpose Or with what honestie could you coÌ„clud that the Catholikes do make Christ and his Apostells infantes of which the one thei honor as true God the others thei worship as Doctours and Patrones of the world Brothern saieth the Apostle I could not speake vnto you as vnto spiritual but as to carnall lyke as to litle ones in Christ I gaue vnto you milke to drinke not meate For as then you were not able no neither yet you can For as yet you be carnall And to the Galathians O my litle childerne sayeth he with whom I am in trauaile againe vntill Christ be formed in you Doe not therefor Sir I pray you so ernestly take the matter when you see the Apostle hymselfe not to leese any of his own strength and wisedome because of the imperfection of the Corinthians and others and consider allso whether thei might not be called infantes which as yet were to be fedd with milke But let vs goe further in to the chapiter You laie the cause of priuate Masse vpon the keycold charitie of the people and perhappes the first occasion came thereof in deede but. c. Who tould you that this was the cause of priuate Masse You read it not I am assured in the Apologie which you would faine answer and yet you buyld so much vpon it as though it had ben a most plaine conclusion of it The Catholike in hys Apologie sayeth that the constant faith the pure liffe the feruent charitie c whiche florisshed in the primitiue church were causes perhappes why no Masse was then celebrated but that diuers Christians dyd communicate But what conclusion doth he inferr there vpon not that truely which you dreame of but this only which he labored to proue that you should not therefor require the lyke manner of coÌ„municatyng with the priest to be at these dayes vsed when the lyke deuotion and charitie ys not in the peoples hartes grounded He said not that the keycold charitie of the people shold be the cause of priuate masse no more then he saied that the number of communicantes was the efficient cause of saying masse as though there might haue ben no masse att all except there had ben some prepared to receiue Is there no difference trou you betwyxt these ij propositions There were no masses saied in the primitiue church but there were some readie to commâ—nicate and Except there had ben some readie for that purpose there would haue ben no masses in the primitiue church The first perhappes was true and the cause thereof ys attributed in the Apologie vnto the deuotion of the people The second ys denied playnely vnto you because the sacrifice of the church of Christ doth not depend at all vpon communicantes â–ª for lyke as in these dayes at an Easter tyme the perfect holy men may be espyed to go closely in to some one chapple and there saie priuatelie a masse in great deuotion and silence the cause of which is not in the lacke of such as would communicate but togeather with many other causes the desire which thei haue geaueÌ„ in to their hartes to goe so much the further from the sight and respect of men by how much the neerer they would come to the contemplation and admiration of God so it might right well haue come to passe without any scripture aâ—thoritie or reason to the contrary that euen in the most best tyme of the primitiue church such masses were saied now and then which you do odiously call priuate Wherefor seing there is so great fault committed of you in the misconstruing of the Catholike his reason no wonder if you haue taken great peines in commentyng vpon it all out of purpose As when yow tell vs of many coÌ„modities which grow by the oft receiuing of the sacrament c. But who shall bring the people daily or weekly yea quarterly rather vnto the receiuyng of their maker yf thei will not themselues The priestes saie you should warne them and instruct them and tell them plainely that if they be gasers only and no receiuers they runn thereby in to displeasure of God with many other vehement sentences which for that purpose you alleage owt of S. Chrisostome And you make the matter so easie as though for the speaking the priest could bring the people vnto the coÌ„munion whereas it doth presently appeare eueÌ„ in your late erected churches that for al that you are able to do you haue most often tymes no coÌ„munion at all And except it were more for the princes law then for that by your vehement exhortations you shold perswad the people I thinke there wold be fewer coÌ„munions by four partes then are now in England which as many as they are do not lightly excede one or .ij. a quarter in most parisshes First therefor pluck the beame out of your owne eie and then you shall be better able to take a mote out of an others eie And when you shall perceaue by experience which allreadie in part doth trie it that except you coÌ„straine men by act of parleameÌ„t you shall neuer bring them by the strength and dailynes of your preaching vnto the frequentyng of the coÌ„munion then lo you shall be more mercifull towardes others in your owne exact iudgement and thinke that with good cause that may be vnspoken in which you shold haue no hope of redresse to be made by your speakyng But of the diligence and discretion of the church which she hath vsed concernyng the calling of people vnto their housel because of better occasion which hereafter foloweth I will in this place leaue it vncounted But ye obiect that priestes are bounden of dutie to the daily frequentation of it and the people left free That would I faine lerne at your hande and see some good proufe of the Scripture for the same Yf you would faine lerne tary vntill I bring our doctors and readers vnto you But as though you had all the lernyng of the world sett in a table before your eies so you answer that we haue lesse then a light shadow to hyde our assertion in Truly Syr you geaue testimonie against your selfe that you be very blind because you can iudge no better of colours For this first I trust you will graunt that priestes and laye men are not alltogeather one
dyd because thei had so receiued of their predecessors and fathers whose wysedomes thei had not to suspect yet you were not content with the licence grauÌ„ted vnto you of disputyng with them but you would allso apoint vnto them what order thei should take in the matter And for all their possession yet you would dryue them to shew their euidencies What if thei had lost their writinges or could not fynd them presently or wold not shew them to such as you were ys their silence or refusall in that behalfe to be accompted for a losse of their cause But thankes be to your Bishoperickes when you be now well placed you are content that the plaintyfe shoulde first and formost shew his euidence And now it ys against reason that the possessor should take the person of a plaintyfe which before this tyme would not be grauÌ„ted whiles your selfes were out of all possession But how say yow if the Catholikes doe continually yet keepe their possession for the Bishopes of Fraunce Spaigne Germanie and Italy are not yet dryuen out of their chaires and places of the Apostells And as long as they keepe their romes you can not enter in to the churche as it were a house forsaken and destitute how then will you dryue them out by force vi armis In deede it ys one of the cheifest wayes by which the new ghospel hath proceded which if you can not as yet folow thoroughly you must then either lett them alone which you do not as appeareth by your sermons writinges or els bring furth your euideÌ„ces against them which be in possession But no reason shall preuaile except it make for you and therefor you passe not vpon the possession which the Catholikes hold and keepe in the world but you wyll dryue them to the prouyng of such articles as doe offend you and for your owne part you will stand vpon the negatiue The resting vpoÌ„ which because you say it ys mistaken lett vs heare your expositioÌ„ how it must be vnderstanded M. Iuell say you perceauyng vs to make this auauÌ„t that the church hath taught as we doe these xvC yeares dyd both wyselie and lernedly see that there was none so fytt way to dryue vs from it As to rest vpon this true negatiue that we haue no sufâ—icient proufe out of the authorities of scriptures fathers or councells But Syr how can your wysedome serue you to think that because you will haue vs to proue our doctrine therefor we must do it Yf euerie Catholike Bishope in the world should in his owne conscience haue mislyked the vse of the Catholike church in sundrie articles yet for the reuerence which they owe vnto antiquitie they should not without euident and manifest reason haue lightly geauen ouer their old orders for the strength of tradition ys so great that allthough I could see no reason why I should defend it yet I should not contempne their authoritie from whom it was receiued For lyke as in the Epistle vnto the Romanes which epistell traditioÌ„ teacheth me to be S. Paules I must not blott out euerie sentence which vnto my iudgemeÌ„t may seeme either vntrue either vnprofitable but reuerently thinke that all ys well allthough my vnderstandyng be very euill so when the churche of Christ doth generallie receaue and folow a custome I ought to iudge the best of it allthough I were not able to proue it To dispute of that which the whole churche thorough the world doth vse it is sayeth S. Augustyne a poynt of most insolent madnes Yf therefor being able to geaue no other reason for my beleife then only traditioÌ„ I should not rasshely depart from it shall my aduersary require of me a cause of my doinges in wryting and except I shew it owt of hand pull me away from my religion Lett me suppose that you browght M. Iuell vnto me and that he should find me standing in this poynt of the Catholike faith that it ys not of necessitie required in a Christen man to receiue vnder both kyndes What might he thinke you say vnto me either wysely either lernedly agaynst me you would make hym I know to speake after this sort that I haue no sufficient proufe owt of Scriptures Doctours or Councells to make for me Yes Syr would I answer and please you I haue sufficient authoritie for my beleife therein but I am not disposed to tell you of it and I would not care to take a blowe for so answering a Bisshope Yes Mary shall he saye if you had any you would alleage it and except you tell me of one or other you shall be accounted to make only an auaunt and in deed to haue nothing And here I trow if all Catholikes should hold their peace in lyke manner as I do it should be declared at Paules crosse the next sunday folowing that the papistes haue no one sentence or word to make for them in all Scripture Doctours and CouÌ„cells Well Sir then allthough this be to much iniury and oppression because the Catholikes were not disposed to refell your negatiue therevpon to conclude that they are able to say nothing I will yet goe further with you and graunt for disputation sake that which for truth sake is to be denyed And what is that forsoth that I haue no other cause in all the world for defence of the article which I mentioned but only this one that it hath very long and quietly continued How say you in this case wyll you stand still vpon the negatiue which for trying of your wysedome I graunt vnto you And to keepe your negatiue wil you deny that receiuyng in one kynd only hath not ben long vsed in the church No verely that can you not doe because it is so playne and euident that receiuyng in one kynd hath continuance of tyme and approued practise of Christendome for it that your selues doe crye out and gapple in pulpites that many hundred of yeres togeather before you were breathed owt in to the worlde all Christendome as in sundrie other pointes so in that allso was miserablie deceaued How then you will perchaunse proue vnto me that my argumeÌ„t is not good because all the world hath hytherto ben seduced And truly what other thing you might say I can not tell For when I shold yeld vnto you that I haue no Scripture Doctour or Councel for coÌ„munion in both kyndes and when you should not well call me vnreasonable for dwelling against you in that article and opinion alleageing the coÌ„sent and vse of Christendome for me either you must declare that reason of myne to be nothing worth the staying vpon or els you must hold your peace as hauing no more to saye vnto me or els you must repete your begynning againe and harpe madlye vpon one string in telling me that I can shew no sufficient sentence exaÌ„ple or authoritie why coÌ„munion should be geauen vnder one kynd only Now as you haue to muche varietie
be permitted but that which hath come frō the Apostles or that those thinges should be alltogeather now autētike which were vsed in the primitiue church But if the Catholike hath ben superfluous in prouing of that which no man as you saie hath denyed if you wyll charitablie forgeaue hym this once he shall within the turnyng of one leaffe in your defence do the lyke again for you And now I trow we do agree in this one poynt that for ceremonies and thinges indifferent we are not bound vnto the Apostells tyme. In what thinges then are we bound to do after the example of the Apostels and the primitiue church In truth of doctrines and right vse of sacramētes as thinges in the church most necessarie And you doe alleage this cause of your so saying In doctrine there is but one veritie and but one right vse of the sacramentes If I were able precisely to know what you meane by the right vse of Sacramentes I could sone answer you how farfurth we agree with you in this part of your distinction For to receiue in the morning or euening to receiue fasting or after meales and to receiue with cumpanie or alone they be such thinges as you may at your pleasure vnderstand by the right vse of the Sacrament or saie to disagree from the right vse of it For in S. Paules tyme emong the Corinthians they vsed to receiue at night about supper tyme and they made no matter of conscience if they had dined that daie before And you can not saie but notwithstanding the breaking of their fastes or takyng of their suppers they dyd in that beginnyng of the church rightly vse the Sacrament Yf therefor the vse of the Sacrament ys to be taken for that manner and order which they rightly vsed at the begynnyng in receauyng of the sacramentes I denie vnto you that the right vse of them is to be accompted emong preceptes and lawes vnchangeable For the right vse is but one you saie and therefor lyke as thei of the Apostells tyme dyd sitt togeather in the church about euening and receiue either after or before other meates Christ his verie naturall body so should we do now of necessitie in these daies or els we vse not the sacrament rightly To which case if you will answer that tyme place and maner of supping with common meates which then were vsed do nothing apperteine to the right vse of the sacramēt so shall I againe inferr that number of communicantes and receiuing in one or both kyndes are as litle required to the right vse of the sacrament Therefor to auoid the occasion of stryuing which could not but be geauen if one part vnderstanded not the other our meanyng is this that in the articles of our faith and necessary doctrine we haue to keepe one veritie which hath ben from the begynnyng but in canons and orders which haue ben added sence vnto the substance of our religion the church of Christ is not so straictly bound vnto them but that she may with discretion abrogate or alter them or permit the discontinuance of them And in this kynd of orders we vnderstand the vse of the sacramētes which in substance are to this daie one with those of the primitue church do thei neuer so much differ in ceremonies circunstancies and manner of vsing them We do not therefore graunt vnto you that the right vse of the sacrament ys but one or that the vse of a sacrament is in the same authoritie and estimation as the truth of doctrine is For he which receiueth alone if he be in state of grace doth well and he which receiueth with cumpanie doth wel if his liffe be cleane And then againe a conclusion in doctrine can neuer be remoued but in receiuing of sacramentes diuers vses may be permitted except you doubt whether both parties should be thought baptised a right of which the one were but once dipped the other thrise wasshed and perfunded Wherefore the vse of the sacramentes being ▪ with vs a thing indifferēt in it selfe allthough not indifferent vnto euerie rasshe controller you speake very absurdly vnto our iudgementes first in not bynding vs vnto the obseruations of ceremonies and thinges indifferent and then againe requiring of vs to keepe the ceremonies of the primitiue church ▪ For when you had said in one sentence For the vse of ceremonies and thinges indifferent we do not bind you to the Apostles tyme and the primitiue church in the next sentence folowing you call for redresse according to the scripture and primitiue church not only for vse of sacramentes or false opinions which are referred to the first member of your distinction but allso as concerning ceremonies which allthough you call superstitious that you might seeme to haue some iust cause of taking them awaie yet you do against right dealing to call vs to the primitiue churche for ceremonies which you said before were in themselues indifferēt And here loe you make a rule and saie that nothing is to be added vnto the first ordinances of the law and that we must bring thinges vnto the institution of Christ. And againe that we must not harken what other dyd before vs but what Christ first dyd that was before all And yet againe That that ys true that was first ordeined and that ys corrupted that ys after done which rule yf you wyll haue to be vnderstanded in suche matters as cōcerne immutable doctrine then haue you proued that thing which none of ours denyeth vnto you and so you are all fallen in to the same lapse for which you misliked with others But if you vnderstand generally by truth of doctrine the vse of Sacramentes and ceremonnies then haue you much forgoten yout selfe which euen now made ceremonies indifferent But if you do it for that purpose that a Catholike should not know where to haue you allthough I seeme to aske your losse yet for truth sake amend that fasshion And perchaūse this myght be amended allso that you do not trulie alleage your testimonies saying that to be Saint Cyprianes in his Epistle vnto Cecilius which is not at all to be found there but in his goodly treatise De simplicitate praelatorum In which place the seeking vnto the head which you do mention is not vnderstanded for to seeke vnto the beginnyng of a doctrine or custome but vnto that head of whom it ys wryten Thou art Peter that is to saye a rocke and vpon this rocke I wyll buyld my church But how rightlie you alleage the doctours and how much they make for you it wyll be perceaued before we haue ended Hytherto let it be marked that we refuse your rule of resorting to the first institution for the redresse about the vse of the Sacramentes Because the vse of them is a thing indifferent and it neither maketh neither marreth to receiue alone or with cumpanie and to receiue in one or in both kyndes or at
night or in the morning or thrise in the yere or ones in all our liffe so that the church be obeied And now we will come to an other part of this third chapiter in which you do excedingly reproue the Catholike because of the similitude of a taull man and infant which he vsed to the openyng of his purpose and confounding of his aduersarie Which so much displeaseth you that you saie I assure you it was neuer inuented without the spirite of Antichrist nor can not be mainteined withowt blasphemye agaynste Christ and singular reproch of his Apostells and their successors Syr I beseche you to pacifie yourselfe and to vse the matter so calmelie and quietly as you promised to do in the end of the .ij. chapiter Consider I pray you first whether the Catholike hath such a meaning as yon make sense vpon hym Let vs reherse faithfully the wordes of the Catholike and then as farr as your grammar rules will suffer you make your construction vpon them He had spoken before of the coÌ„mones of all thinges in the Primitiue church of miracles of couering of womens faces of temporalties of Bisshopes of receiuyng after supper of eatyng of blouddinges and houseling of infantes of which all he saieth in manner of a conclusion To call such thinges to the state of the Apostles tyme and of the primitiue church againe ys nothing els but to enforce a taule man to come to his swadeling clothes and to crie alarme in his cradel againe These loe be his very wordes in which do your worst and tell vs what fault you find He resembleth the primitiue church saie you to infancie wich similitude you terme as please you an inuention of Antichrist a blasphemie against Christ and singular reproch of his Apostells But see now herein how much you be deceaued The Catholike doth not as you weene saie that alltogeather that church was an infant but in such thinges as he speake of concerning order or dispensation which then was vsed in the church he saieth and saieth it truly that to require that all thinges shold be now in these daies obserued as thei were then vsed it were no more nor better then to bring a taule man to his swadeling clothes againe And yet as though he had made no more of the primitiue church then as if none but boyes had lyued in it so you ful manly reason against hym and proue your selfe to lacke discrâ—â—ion For you saie Yf that tyme were the state of infancie in the church wheÌ„ Christ hymselfe instructed when hys Apostles taught when the holy fathers gouerned next their tyme then we must needes recken Christ the Apostles the fathers to be infantes in religion to be babes in gouernement of the church Yf we must needes do so as you saie then is there no remedie But certenlie it is wonder vnto me how any such necessitie should be concluded yea allthough I would affirme it that not only in a few particular causes but allso coÌ„cernyng the whole state of her the church was then in her infancie For allthough the whole house be full of childerne yet it must not straitwaies folow that the goodman and the goodwiffe must needes be childerne Or if in a schole of one hundred of scholars the best is not come vnto his Catechisme or the institutions of Caluyne in Englisshe bokes which will sone make one a Doctour it must not folow of necessitie that the master vnderstandeth not his accidence The Apostells of our Sauyor Christ before the cummyng of the Holyghost in fierie tonges vpon them thei were allwaies full of imperfection both in will and allso vnderstanding ergo was Christ our master to be reckened for an ignorant person For so runneth your wyse reason that if that tyme were the state of infancie then we must needes recken Christ to be an infaent in religion The Christians allso after the ascension of Christ and preaching of the Apostles were for the most part fraile and weak of which the Apostle had need to saie If a man be preuented in any fault c. And againe I speake gentlie and fauorablie because of the weaknes of your flesshe And vnto the Hebrewes Euerie bodye that is partaker of milke is voyde of the talke of iustice for he is litle one but the sound and strong meate is for the perfect Yet not withstanding the imperfections of the weaker there were many spirituall men apt to instruct others and the Apostle had many thinges to tell his countriemen which could not be well interpreted because thei were vnable to heare hym But you to make your part the stronger do proue that the primitiue Church had vse of reason and wysedome and you goe so farr in the matter that you define vnto vs what the word Infancie doth signifie and you saie that young age ys for no other cause named infancie theÌ„ for that it hath not the vse of tong and can not speake But the primitiue church could speake ergo you would haue vs discredited because we saie that she had her infancie In very deed it had ben better for you if you coulde haue neither spoken neither wryten so childishly For to let that reproufe which you deserue to passe that you doe not rightly coÌ„ceiue hys meanyng whom you would seeme to aunswer you must consider that he which shall compare the tyme of the primitiue church vnto infancy may haue right good meaninges therin such as yourselfe must alow For lyke as to infantes many thinges are permitted which afterwardes shall leisurely be taken awaie so in the primitiue church vnder the sight and gouernement of the Apostells some ceremonies of the old lawe were suffered to continue which now emong all Christians are vtterly abrogated as circuncision purification and absteinyng from certen meates Againe lyke as all thinges are not opened vnto childerne which in further processe of yeres serue for their profit and vnderstanding so the wysedom of God which was abundantly in his Apostells and their successours did not straitwaies put furth in writyng all misteries but as occasion afterward required so it brought furth in to the open knouledge of the church the auncient and Apostolical verities I might allso saie that because the church then was in externall shew both poore and naked and subiect to persequutions therefor it was in her infancie but now wheÌ„ it is so glorious so strong and mightie that she hath the Princes of the world obedient and subiect vnto her and hath noblely spreaden herselfe ouer the cumpasse of the whole world it is no great absurditie I trow if she be said to haue come to a perfect age and stature Which yet if you will call dotage because of many euill maners and enormities extant in her I would not striue with you vpon it concernyng some members of her if you dyd so speake without priuy spite and malice But yet this doth folow that
in any one article be deceaued and teach that sole receauyng is against the institution of Christ and graunt for all that that no ouerthrow is taken if the cleane contrary be proued But lett vs consider now what shiftes you can make to the disapointing of our purpose Our contention is for priuate Masse c. of which sole receauing is but one part You may freely make as many and as few partes as you will herein because it ys alltogeather of your owne priuate deuising The Catholike church as it is oftentymes told you hath no priuate masse and we can not find for what other cause you nickname it a priuate masse then for that the priest alone receaueth And if we hitherto haue not vnderstanded your meaning your selues are very much to blame which haue not defined it vnto vs. All be it if one may come to an others mynd by considering his waies in reasonyng we can thinke no other but that you meane the priestes sole receauing without the people by the name of priuate masse because in all your speakyng against it you argue directly and only against sole receauing Which whether we haue concluded against you or no what haue you to the contrary This you saie It folowth not to saie the priest in case of necessitie when none will receaue may take the Sacrament alone therefore he may do it without necessitie when he may haue other to communicate with hym Yeas truly it foloweth very well for if it be so as you report that the right and necessarie vse of the sacrament ys to receaue it with cuÌ„panie then can the priest neuer receaue it alone by hymselfe what so euer necessitie should come vpoÌ„ hym for in such thinges as apperteyne to the substance of the sacrament no creature can lawfully vse the contrary vnto them But sole receauing seemeth to be graunted of yow to vs in case of necessitie which prouision or exceptioÌ„ you proue not hytherto out of the expresse word of God ergo it is no part of the necessary substance which must be obserued about the sacrament And if it be not essential then doubtles it may be dispensed with all then allso may the Church of Christ without breach of his institution lett the priestes alone with their sole receauyng what say you then ys receauing with cumpanie necessarie if you saye yea then is it for no mans pleasure or ordinance in any case to be altered Yf you saie no that is if you graunt it to be indifferent why then might nor the priest receaue alone for any commaundement of Christ or his Apostels And what law haue you either of God or good man that chargeth hym to haue alwaies communicantes with hym And this I speake concernyng your weake argument and allso of the libertie which is in the priest if he be disposed to vse it Allthough in deed that you can not shew the example where the priest dyd receaue alone wheÌ„ others would communicate with hym But now Syr I pray you come neerer to the matter and shew vnto vs due and good proufes against the priests sole receauyng Because ye vrge so ernestly to haue due proufe against sole receauyng by the priest if the people will not communicate I will shew you some reasons But before I enter c. Take our whole meanyng with you Sir we require to haue your proufes against sole receauing by the priestes not conditionally with your if the people will not communicate as who should saie that the onlye cause of the sole receauing were thought of vs to be in the lacke of cumpanie and as though necessitie which hath no lawe and not the truthe of the cause dyd make our assertion good we will not I saie so vnperfectlye goe to worke against you but we beleeue and hold absolutely in the nature of the thinges themselues that the sole receauyng is not against the word of God And now do you what you can to proue that vpon paine of God his indignation there ought to be a cuÌ„pany to receaue with the priest at euery masse â–ª as the Catholike in his Apologie requireth of your side Or that it were better not only to plucke hym from the aultar but allso to cast hym out of the church to rather then he should receaue alone and alter the institution of Christ as you vnderstand it and cause the people to runn headlong in to God his displeasure which wordes whether you spake in vehemencie of spryte or spyte I can not tell yet who should presume to plucke Ambrose froÌ„ the aultar when the Emperour hymselfe ys coÌ„maunded out of the quyer But if you spake as you thought and can proue that which you spake lett vs haue a copie of your reasons of the authorities which so necessarily do moue you And to the end that it may be perceaued who dealeth plainely and who goeth from the purpose let this be the forme of the question which is to be talked of betwixt vs. Whether vpon paine of God his indignation the priest ought to haue allwaies cumpanie to râ—ceaue with hym Now that you may not saye that sence your defence hath come furth the state of the controuersie ys quite and cleane altered turne you vnto the .7 and .10 leafe of the Apologie and you shall reade most manifestly that vnto this state the question ys dryuen Therefor Syr after you doe perceaue the ground vpon which we do and you shold stand march you forward in your captaine his name what so euer he be which moued yow You saie then I will shew you some reasons But before I enter in to that I must warne you once againe that if our reasons were not so well able to proue necessitie yet could you not coÌ„clude your purpose for that your priuate Masse is nothing lesse then necessitie What we can conclude it shall appeare before we depart But it may be gathered allready that you are concluded vpp in to a very hard case which make such protestations before you come to the matter You saied a litle before that if we dyd geaue you the ouerthrow yet we could not triumph and now you warne vs that if your reasons be not so well able to proue necessitie which is ment I trow by the necessitie of some to coÌ„municate with the priest that yet we could not conclude our purpose because our priuate masse is nothing lesse then necessitie by which necessitie you vnderstand I thinke the lacke of communicantes when the priest would receaue wherein if I do not rightly interprete you you must be contented to excuse me because that if you yourselfe were at this place in so greate necessitie and lacke of wordes that you could not plainely expresse your mind no wonder if he which readeth your sentencies be brought in to doubt what sense he should make of them As for necessitie in which many thinges are grauÌ„ted and as
concerning the blessed thefe which neuer you saie was baptised which you saie truly in that he was not dipped in water and yet he was baptised in the Holy ghost and in his owne bloud because of our principall questioÌ„ I will not stand about him And whether in the ordinarie vse of it the supper of the Lord ought of necessitie to haue coÌ„municantes to be partakers of it as you would make the controuersie to be I will not reason with you at this tyme. Either because it ys not perceaued what you will meane by the terme ordinarie vse either because the question ys more generall as we haue put it furth vnto you And wheras at other tymes in your pulpites and allso bokes you appeale vnto the institution of Christ and make the matter so weighty as though it might neuer be suffered that one should receaue alone with out cumpanie yet now you talke of an ordinary vse of the Sacrament as who should thinke that you neuer denied but that in particular cases and for extraordinary causes one alone might receaue without any iniurie done vnto the institution of Christ. And yet againe when the Catholikes do alleage diuerse examples and authorities to proue that cumpanie ys not necessary absolutely in the vse of the Sacrameâ—t then loe you be so ernest against them as though it were in no wyse to be graunted that in the primitiue church any one example authoritie or argument might be shewed to proue sole receauing as thowgh yowr cause were anyiote hindered by it if in deed you hold the question not absolutely but only concernyng the ordinarie vse of the Sacrament Wherefor seeing that you goe so in and out hyther and thyther without all maner of keeping of order and place like dimilaunces or light horsemen or els like the wild Irisshe in their fighting I therefor thinke it necessarie againe to byd you remember your selfe and to coÌ„sider the state of the question vpon which the Catholike rested And thee gentle Reader I desire to marke exactly the cheife and principall matter which we haue to debate vpon which is this Not whether in tyme of necessity a priest may receaue alone Not whether the ordinary vse of the Sacrament ought of necessitie to haue communicaÌ„tes we will not at this tyme medle with these questions because we haue allreadye a greater and more principall in hand but our question ys this Whether as I haue sayed before vppon paine of God his indignatioÌ„ the priest ought to haue allwaies cumpanie to receiue with hym Let this be first examined and then shall the other be quickly answered Trusting therefor that thow wilt marke diligently where vpon the catholike striueth against the aduersarie I now returne againe vnto the M. of the defence and require the to consider the maner of his fighting In answering the Catholike his demaund he saieth Our proufe ys this In the celebration of this sacrament of the Lorde his supper we ought to do that only and nothing els that Christ the author of it did in his institution But in Christ his institution appeareth neither sole receauyng nor ministring vnder one kynd therefore in celebration of the sacrament neither sole receiuing nor ministring vnder one kind ought to be vsed First to the maior then to the minor Syr I deny your maior vnto you because you affirme that generally which ys true only in certen pointes of Christ his mauÌ„dy For if we must do that only which Christ dyd at his supper and doe nothing els but that then must we vse sitting and not kneeling or standing then must the Sacrament be delyuered vnto .xij. persons and neither to more nor lesse then shall we not celebrate before dyner or in a cope or surplesse or with psalmes organes and solempnitie such as you allso vse because we must do nothing els but that which Christ did as your maior importeth Now if you be to wise and lerned to thinke that in such a generall maÌ„ner we ought to do as Christ did at his last supper then haue you iust cause to correct your maior and we can not but deny it vntil we may vnderstand of your limitation which you will we trust add vnto it And what limitation might that be which being added we would graunt your proposition Forsoth if for the terme institution you woulde put tradition For what so euer Christ dyd about the coÌ„secrating or delyuering of his pretious body it may be truly saied that he dyd it in his institution but yet such circumstancies as he then vsed are not beleeued to be his tradition For it is allso one thing to saie thys is Christ his institution and it hath a farr other meanyng to saie Christ dyd this in his institution For his institution importeth a law and is directly to be obserued but the phrase of in his institution importeth a signification of tyme and place and circumstancies within which his institution was vttered Which thinges as thei be not essentiall but stand only about the substance themselues being accidentall and chaingeable so thei may be without all hurt altered as the church shall thinke good and conuenient Therefor as I graunt that in matter of weight and substance Christ onlye and no other is to be folowed so in that generall maÌ„ner of speach which you do vse I am sure it can neuer be proued Yeas saie you The maior is S. Cyprianes proued at large and much staied vpon in his epistle ad Cecilium de Sacramento sanguinis You may be for euer ashamed that you alleage Saint Cypriane for the proufe of your proposition which nothing at all maketh for you and that you do so wickedly in so ernest a matter abuse the simplicitie of your countriemen such as can vnderstand no Laten And because it is not once or twyse that you appeale vnto this epistle of S. Cypriane I will therefor sumwhat at large shewe it furthe in this place to the Reader that he take good heed for euer of geauing hastie creditt vnto strainge and newfound teachers There were in S. Cyprians tyme some such priestes which either for simplicitie or for custome sake or for certen deuout causes dyd offer vp at the tyme of the misteries not wyne and water togeather but only water by itselfe Against whose doinges in that point S. Cypriane most ernestlye writeth and it is the only scope and marke at the which he shooteth in all that long epistle alleaging first the example of Melchisedech which brought furth bread and wyne for he was the priest of God most highest afterwardes the saying of Salomon how that wysedome killed her sacrificies and mingled her wine in a cup then further the prophesie of â—acob speaking of his soun Iuda in the figure of Christ and saying he shall wasshe his robe in wyne and his cloke in the bloud of the grape after that againe the testimonie of Esai when he saw
the heate of his preachementes he could not but take a noune to his bedfellow And as he was in his doinges so is he in his writinges so shameles so fylthy so vncleane so slaunderous so mutable so presumptious and so desperate that it is wonder that he is accompted for a man much lesse for a man of God I speake these thinges to declare what difference ther is betweene our holy Abbates and your rennegate fryars the folowers of our religion and the founders of yours to enforce you hereby to shew what you thinke of S. Bernard S. Bonauenture S. Denyse and others and to signifye hereby vnto you that as we staye vpon contynuance and numbre so yet we reioyce at the vertues and graces which haue and do appeare playnly in many of this numbre wherefore it is not without cause that we are confirmed in our fayth and doctryne because of such a contynuance of it Note that I saye such a contynuanbe For Turkes Sarracenes and Panymes may alleage contynuance but such a contynuance in which the doctrine taught is greauous vnto the carnall man and yet receyued and the greatest professors of it are hated of all heretikes and yet for conscience and wordlye shame are not cōdemned such a one I say is much to be regarded and such a one is not found but onlye emong the Catholikes whose waies in doctrine if they be not open secure especially so great cumpany for so long tyme going in them with prosperous faring to their iourneyes end then will I neuer trust any waye but be as the cumpany is indifferent to go with euery one vntyll I am wery But thankes be to God he hath better prouyded for vs appointing his catholike churche to be the pyller and staye of true religion Which although it is quyckly to be founde out because it is in deede Catholike yet you thinke it necessarye to examyne what is the church and how it maye be knowen Goe to then we will follow you to the end of your defence in euery conclusion which you make against vs. The Scripture saye you speaketh of the church two waies sometyme as it is in deede before God not knowen allwaie to mans iudgement c. Sometyme the church is taken for the vniuersall multitude of all those which beyng dispersed through the world acknowledge one Christ. c. Sometyme the church is taken for the multitude of those that beare rule in the church You performe more then you promysed We looked but for two wayes and you haue declared three in which the scripture speaketh of the church by which it appeareth that you haue pretye knowledge but you keepe lytle good ordre in setting furth your diuisions Yet goe to as concerning the first sense which you make of the church what make you of her Can it err or no No say you this church is the pyller of truth that neuer continueth in error This church is neuer forsaken of the spirite of God In to this church none be receyued but onlye the children of grace and adoption How might a man then I praye you know this church Verely neither you neither any other can tell For whereas it consisteth of such as be the elect and chosen who can saye either of hymselfe that he is one of them or how can one say that of an other whose hart he seeth not which he can not vnderstand of his owne case which is best knowen vnto hymselfe Therfore as cōcerning the profyt and cōmoditye which they that would might take of this churche which is the pyller of truth we can receyue very lytle of it because she is inuisible vnto man and knowen onlye before God And if you dare saye that this churche may also be knowen vnto man I would you had showen one token or other of her that we might be sure where to fynde the pyller of truthe Now as concerning the church which is dispersed through the worlde and acknowledgeth one Christ and is Through baptisme admitted thervnto and by the vse of the Lordes supper openlye professeth the vnitie therof in doctryne and charitie Is this church trow you the pyller of truthe or what other opinion shall we haue of her This church saye you is resembled vnto a nett which hath good and bad in it it is resembled vnto a field which hath pure corne and cockle also in it You saye herein trulye and you agree now very wel with the catholike church which teacheth vs that in this world the good and euyll Christians are mengled togeather You make also much against certayne heretikes which stand in it stoutly that onely the elect are of the howsehold and familye of God which yet as you haue clerkely defined it can not be so because the good and the badd which acknowledge one Christ and receyue the sacramētes are the true church of Christ. Graunting therefor vnto you that the church hath good men and euill in her I aske now the cause of you wherfore you labor to proue that this church maye goe out of the waye for some part of her you tell vs of Noe of the .x. trybes of Israell of the Prophetes of the captiuitie of Babilon and other such historyes But to what end and purpose yf you wil proue thereby that thei which beare the name of the people of God haue often tymes forsaken his law and destroyed his Prophetes you haue spoken that for proufe wherof I wold neuer haue gone to the flood of Noe hauing so many examples at home to make this conclusion manifest For all they which be Christened doe beare the name of the people of God and the promyses are made only vnto them yet this world maye declare how many coniurars dissemblers wycked lyuers faithlesse ministers lecherous friars and desperate peruerters of all law and honestie doe lyue in the churche But if you would proue that because a great numbre was deceyued therefore the whole churche was subuerted you speake alltogeather without booke For to consider one example for all in the tyme of Elias the Prophet when he good man thought that all had forsaken God besydes hym selfe yet said God vnto hym I haue lefte my selfe seuen thousand in Israell which haue not bowed their knees before Baal And before that it is playne by the booke of kynges that Abdyas the stewarde of kyng Achab his house dyd hyde a hundred Prophetes of God from the sight of Iezabell the quene and fedd thē with bread and water Therefore as it can not be denyed but that they which haue borne the name of the people of God haue not allwayes and wholy folowed hym so yet it can neuer be proued that the visible church of God hath ben in all her partes subuerted And yet in the old law the church was not then so richely endowed as it was afterward in the commyng of Christ and his holie ghost neither were those wordes spokē then which haue
of the church Apostolike and for good cause they are to be dyscredited Loe Syr if you be of a good conscience contynew in the fayth which you haue professed and for two symple markes which euery man will set vpon his religion take these fower notes which al christendome aloweth of which fower there is no heretike which worke he neuer so craftely shall euer be able to proue that any one may serue for hym The .xiiij. Chapiter IF you had acquaynted your selfe with faythfull Abraham and Isaac and dyd beleiue that God is able to performe what so euer he promiseth you would make no question of the reall presence of Christ in the Sacrament and that cheif principle being once confessed you shold neuer make great quarreling about certayne consequencies which folow therevpon As whether Christ his bodye be vpon a thousand aultars at one tyme or whether accidentes be without substance and bodye without place or whether reseruation may be alowed with diuers other questions This is the fault which the Catholike in this last Chapiter fyndeth with you in auoyting of which you saie first We graunt as freely as you with Abraham and Isaac that God is able to perfourme what so euer he doeth promyse Yf you thinke as you speake why are these bodging and souterly argumentes so ofte repeted emong you that Christ his naturall bodye is in heauen ergo yt can not be on the earth Item a natural body occupyeth onlye one place but the sacrament is in many places Againe accidences can not be without substance ergo the substance of bread is not chainged into the substance of Christ his bodye Are not these your argumentes most manyfest tokens that you speake against the possibilitie to haue Christ his naturall bodye in the Sacrament For otherwise you should not aske how it might be after the Iewysh fasshyons but rather proue that it is not so after the maner of wyse heretikes Well yet thankes be to God that you be not so folysh as your fellowes and that you graunt that yt ys possible inough vnto God to bring all that vnto passe which the church teaceth vs as concerning the sacrament but saye you How can you shew that it was God his holy wyll to haue so many myracles wrought as you without necessitie doe make in the Sacrament Mary Syr we shew it by his owne wordes This is my bodye This is my bloud vpon which one myracle all the rest of our beleif therein doeth follow by necessitie of consequence You aske allso for an example in some place of all the scriptures lyke vnto this merueylous worke which is beleiued to be in the sacramēt Wherein I answer you with the same wordes as S. Augustine answered Volusianus as concerning the incarnation of God Yf you aske for a reason the thing shal not be wonderfull and if you requyre an example the thing shall not be singular Also the myracles which the scriptures speake of are not therefore beleiued because they haue other myracles of lyke sute with them but because God is allmightie and because all scripture is true We doe not apoint as though all were of our one making but we belieue that Christ his very body is truly in the sacramēt and that it is there not in maner of proportion quantitie or figure also that it maye be in a thousand places at once and yet in neuer a one of them all locallye which is to saye as in a place of his owne Oh saye you Is not this to take awaye the nature of a bodye from his bodye and in deede to affirme it to be no bodye See loe where you be now Do not these wordes importe that it can not be that a naturall body shold contynue naturall and be in a thousand places at once in which your saying what other thing doe you but priuelye conclude that it is impossyble In which least you should seeme to denye the power of God of which you spake reuerentlye a lytle before you amend the matter and saye Yet we say not but that God is able to worke that also if it be his pleasure Verely verelye you be vncertayne in all your conclusions for if you graunt that God is able to do that which we reporte of hym that he worketh in our Sacrament why talke you of the nature of a bodye and taking awaye of the nature of it if Christ be really in the Sacramēt And if it be vnpossible to haue a bodye without quantitie and in a thousand places at once as it is to make that one selfe same thing should be a bodye and no body why saie you that God is able t◠worke this also if it be his pleasure you offende in both sydes doubting at one tyme of God his allmightmes by which we beleiue his naturall bodye to be in the sacrament and at an other tyme making hym so allmighty as though he could bring to passe that such thinges might agree togeather as are in them selues plaine contradictorie the one to the other But as in this later point you goe beyond all truth and possibility so in the other I trust you wil hereafter be more stedefast and neuer argue against the power of God which is able to performe all those articles which the Catholikes haue gathered vpō the sacramēt Which now you begynn to doe at length and saye that it is not God his will to doe as we beleiue he hath done in the sacramēt But how proue you this For neither is there any necessitie that shold once trayne hym to doe yt nor doeth his word teach vs that euer he did the lyke These be your owne reasons as it is easylye to be perceyued by the weight of them which if you will follow in other pointes of our fayth you maye conclude all our Crede to deserue no credit at all For neyther anye necessitie cōstrayned God first to make and afterward to redeeme mankynde and the most of all his workes are of such a peculyar excellency that we maye thinke right well of eche of them that they are in theyr kynde singular what necessitie constrayned our Sauior to take our death vpon hym and what example haue you in all the scriptures lyke vnto the myracle of the death of God Ergo according vnto your diuine logike it is only an inuention of the papistes that God hym selfe did suffre a most paineful death for man It is wysedome for vs rather to beleiue the church then to allow such argumentes by which we maye destroye all true religion And yet not only the church teacheth but the scripture also wytnesseth that this which the Christians receyue in the Sacrament is the bodye of Christ hym selfe as he said most playnly This is my bodye which is geuen for you Now whether the verbe substātiue Sum es fui might be interpreted by transsubstantiare tell me fyrst I praye you whether Sum