vnto Timothy and Titus 1. Tim. 3. Titus 1. those doth our religion allow and none else If any haue preached diligently and when they are once come to promotion haue giuen ouer it is plaine they sought themselues and not the Lord Iesus will ye lay the fault of such vngodly men vpon the doctrine Cease therefore not to bee a true Catholike which ye neuer were but an obstinate blinde heretike without true vnderstanding Pa. Better is a bad scuse then none at all Forsooth the doctrine must not bee blamed but the men but I pray ye for your Clergie why are those things maintained Are they vnknowne If not why are they borne Answere this and then ye say somewhat to the purpose Pro. When I haue answered it you shall gaine little For as I may most easily prooue that Gods word which is our religion doth allow no such ministerie so may I as easily shew that all this corruption in the ministerie came from you wée may rue the time that euer your corrupt lawes and orders in matters for the Ministerie tooke place in the worlde because the very Reliques of them are deadly wheresoeuer they remayne and doe poyson the Church of GOD the most filthie and cursed abominations in the liues of the Ministers and other abuses began among you Ye haue no cause to boast of the goodnesse of your Priests nor of their learning looke vpon those of them which at this day doe remaine in our Church not as standers but as poore rotten stakes in an hedge the people may here and there although twentie yeares and od haue greatlie wasted them sée how graue Diuines godly Prelates were among you As for the maintenance of such things among vs I say still we defie all such abuses we allow none other ministerie but such as S. Paul describeth If any man doe defend an vnlearned ministerie which is not able to guide the flocke of Christ or to build vp the temple of God or if any doe beare with vice in the ministers they doe follow Antichrist and not S. Paul they are then become enemies of Christ and fighters together with you against the Gospell destroyers and rooters vp of the Lords vineyard which is to be dressed and kept by expert and skilfull labourers You must learne therefore not to slander the most glorious Gospell nor to lay the blame of such things vpon it but for to finde the fault where it is Pa. I cannot denie but that in words ye doe seeme for to allow such as Saint Paul willeth they should be but when it commeth to the performance ye doe vtterly faile for hauing many learned men ye haue none godly all of them giuen ouer to some fowle vice or other as to be ambitious couetous worldlings idle bellies gluttons proud prelates vaine boasters or such like Pro. I perceiue your subtill craft well enough ye describe our learned men by these fowle vices when ye meane your popish clergie For from the top of yours euen to the bottome euen from the triple crowne vnto the bare footed frier al these vices and a great number more doe abound The Lord be blessed that in our Church and other Churches of his Gospell hath raised vp a great number whom he hath prepared and sanctified by his spirit which doe giue testimonie of their puritie both before GOD and men that they seeke not themselues nor the world but onely to build vp the Church of Christ As for other which are defiled with any of those crimes which you doe name I say still they bee not the workmen by whom God will build his house they bee rather fit to set vp the kingdome of Antichrist and although they should take vpon them with neuer so great profession to defend the truth yet because they professe godlinesse in word Titus 1. and haue denied the power thereof God doth not acknowledge them to be on his side neither will any godly man account them true professors Pa. VVill ye allow none to be of your side but such as bee free from those forenamed vices or such like Alas where is your Church become where shall a man finde a companie of those rare birds which you speake of take the people and their teachers together VVho are they among ye which are not accused in some such crime or other Pro. I say still that because God hath allowed none to bée his redéemed and chosen but those whom he doth also sanctifie we also doe allow none neither of the teachers nor of the people to bee the true friends of the Gospell but such as doe yéeld and shew their obedience thereunto and expresse the doctrine thereof in their conuersation How small soeuer the number of such séeme vnto your bleared eyes for to bée they are the true Church of GOD and moe in number farre then you could wish I know if all should be guiltie which are accused then your saying were true but when it is most euident that the more godly a man is the more he is subiect to false accusations and slanders euen as our Sauiour himselfe was and his Apostles and other most godly which succéeded them your reason is very weake when ye say all are accused for doth it by and by follow that all are guiltie I confesse that our Church if ye vnderstand the whole assemblie is full of all wicked vices but shall Gods word be blamed for that There are a number among vs which are of your broode whose euill life is séene well enough there are a very great nūber of méere worldlings which doe not greatly estéeme any religion although they seeme now because of lawes to allow and fauour our side yet in their hearts they rather cleaue vnto you which is euident by this that they can better away with the friendship and familiaritie of a ranke Papist then of a zealous godly protestant they will highly commend the one and deepely condemne the other Thus yee shall haue them speake such a man indéede I cannot praise him for his religion I let him alone for that he shall answere for himselfe I would he were of a better opinion but for his behauiour there is not a better man As for such and such I cannot tell what to make of them they are so holy and so precise that they haue forgotten all good fellowship Thus you and your fauourers among vs agréeing in a carnall and euill conuersation and filling all the land full of naughtinesse doe charge the Gospell and holy religion of God which doth most seuerely condemne and curse all such abuses I will not stand in particular reciting of those vices which you Papists do ioyne in and allow in our carnall protestāts it would be ouer long a man might make a long booke of that matter alone Pa. I confesse there be many which care not what religiō be so they may liue in wealth ease but what are those vices which we do ioyne with thē Ye
Church is the pillar of truth whosoeuer doth separate himselfe from the Church doth depart from the truth And by this we do still proue that you are all heretickes and scismatikes and do peruert the scriptures because you take them not as the Church doth expound them The scriptures seeme to be on your side but they are not they seeme to be against vs but they are not Pro. This is very sound stuffe you make three strong conclusions out of three sentences of the scriptures In the first ye reason thus the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures therefore none can vnderstand the scriptures but the learned by this your meaning is to shut out all the layitie as you call them from iudging of doctrine and to allow vnderstanding of the scriptures to none but the learned that is the Clergie of Rome for that we shal haue by and by But ye ouershoote your selfe much when ye thinke that Saint Peter by vnlearned men doth meane such as haue not bin brought vp in schoole learning and so put that difference betweene cleargie and layitie No he counteth all those learned which are taught of God both of the common sort of people and other all those are vnlearned which are not taught of God although otherwise they abound in all knowledge of tongues and arts or whatsoeuer Such as haue learned Christ Iesus and him crucified and so are become new creatures in Christ they are learned Col. 2. For in him are all the treasures of wisdome and knowledge He that hath not learned Christ he is vnlearned If he be not new borne but as S. Iohn saith 1. Iohn 3. cōmitteth sin he hath not séene him nor knowne him although otherwise he be neuer so studied a mā in the scriptures Math. 11. For this cause we see that the poore Publicanes are called the children of wisedome because they imbraced the doctrine of Christ when the great Doctors the Scribes and Pharisies were starke blind They sayd none followed Christ but the multitude which knew not the law Iohn 7. which were accursed when as indeede they were blind and accursed themselues so fareth it now with the Pope and his shauelings they say the people cannot vnderstand the scriptures when themselues do not The next sentence vppon which you conclude is out of Peter also where hee saith No scripture is of priuate interpretation From hence you fetch an inuincible argument to proue that none of vs may interprete but Rome onely No priuate man is to interprete the scriptures because no scripture is of priuate interpretation all those which are not of the Popish Cleargie or which haue not authority in the Church from the Pope or do not expound as the Church are priuate men therfore none of those are to interprete the scriptures Here the Pope like a greedy cormorant will haue all to himselfe But ye deale deceiptfully or at the least vnskilfully with the text which ye alleadge for Saint Peter when he saith priuate doth not speake it to make this difference betweene men as though for interpreting the scriptures some shold haue authority some should be priuate but he setteth men against God calling that priuate which is of man For he doth reason thus the scripture was not giuen by the will of man but by the spirite of God therefore the interpretation thereof must bee of God men must not bring that which is their owne If the interpretation be by the spirit then is it not priuate if it be out of mans braine although it should be the Pope al his Cardinals yea ten thousand Popes it is still priuate after the sense in which S. Peter doth call priuate For let any skilful man in the greeke tongue looke vpon the word which is idias epiluseos and he will confesse that it doth signifie that which is ones owne Then the sense is plaine and it is also manifest how peeuishly you peruert the word of God What manner of argument is this a man may not in the interpreting of the Scriptures bring that which is his owne therfore none may interprete them but the Church of Rome Your last reason is not worth answering for although it is most true that the Church is the pillar of truth that those are voyd of truth which abide not in the Church yet this is as false that the Pope his company are the Church of Christ as the other is true and therefore we are no heretikes nor Schismatikes for departing from you which are a den of theeues which haue conspired against the truth Pa. Two grosse things and strange I gather out of your words the one that you would haue the people of themselues to iudge of doctrine the other ye will haue no other interpreter of the sense of the Scriptures but the Spirit I pray ye I am an vnlearned man would faine know which is the truth I heare you alleadge the scriptures in one sense and you say you haue the spirit our men alleadge them in another sense and say they haue the spirit the Anabaptists they haue the spirite the Arrians they interprete by the spirit what shal I do here is euery man hath the spirit yet euery one goeth a contrary way It is manifest therefore that heere needeth a more certaine thing to leane vnto or else the simple man cannot tell which way to turne him What shall he do now but looke how the Church beleeueth and rest in that For he must haue that which may teach him to know which of all these hath the true spirit or else he is neuer the neerer Pro. Ye find two grosse things in my words one of them is that I say the people can iudge of doctrine when it is preached What doth our Sauior Christ meane when he saith Iohn 10. My sheep heare my voyce a stranger they wil not heare they flie frō strangers Cā they know the voice of the true shepheard from the false can they not discerne doctrine The other is that I will haue none other interpreter of the sense of the scriptures but the spirit 1. Cor. 2. S. Paul saith the eare hath not heard nor the eye hath not seene neither came into mans hart the things which God hath prepared for them that loue him but God hath reuealed them vnto vs by his spirite for the spirite searcheth all things yea the deepe things of God And the great doubt which you put forth in the simple man which would faine vnderstand the truth and which of all those foure that ye named haue the spirit I answer that if he himselfe haue not the spirite of God to teach him he shall not be able to iudge but if the spirite do teach him then can he find it for the spirite which doth teach the one to vtter the doctrine which is his doth teach the other to know that doctrine and in them consenteth vnto it being his owne and therefore
meaning thereof from your Church and although we haue the most cleare testimonies of the Scriptures against you yet ye set light thereby and all because your Church cannot erre and you expound them otherwise Therefore there is by your doctrine no rule left for a man to build his faith vppon but the exposition of the gouernours in the Church Aunswere me directly vnto this were there not false Prophetes in olde time among the people of the Iewes Pa. The Scripture doth shew that there were somtime a great number at once and the Church of God did euer condemne them Pro. But tell me how did the people know who were the true Prophets and who were the false the one side commeth and they say thus saith the Lord no saith the other side that is false thus saith the Lord quite contrary to the other and not only at some times a multitude of false Prophets against one true seruant of God but also the high Priestes and other Priests and gouernours in the Church taking part with them against the true Prophet Where was then your golden rule which ye would haue the common sort to measure their faith by I beleeue as the Church beleeueth I cannot iudge I must not meddle with the meaning of the Scriptures Pa. Proue this which you haue sayd it is an easie matter to affirme and you are ready to doe that but your proofes come slowly Can you shew that the high Priests and gouernours in the Temple did ioyne with the false prophets against the true Prophet Pro. They come a little faster then you would gladly haue them or else you would not be so calme if there were but a little matter of colour against vs for want of proofe you would set vp your bristles by and by and you would crowe but when the matter brought out doth choke ye then ye say there is nothing brought ye bid me proue that whē there were false Prophets and that sundry against one they had the Priests and rulers of the Church on their side Reade Ieremias the Prophet ye shall find the false Prophets against him and the Priests also and euen as you say against Luther and other which imbrace the holy Gospell they be heretikes the Pope cannot erre so say they for themselues against Ieremias Iere. 18. come let vs imagine some deuise against him for the law shall not perish from the Priest nor the counsell from the wise nor the word from the Prophete Were the godly people now which forsooke the Priests Iere. 1. Princes and Prophets and gaue eare to Ieremias apostats Did not the Lord tell him at the first when he sent him that he should haue the people the Priests and Princes against him Also ye may see it very fully and plainely expressed Iere. 20. that Pashur the Priest which was appointed chiefe in the house of God did smite Ieremias and put him in the stockes when hee heard him prophesie here was a right Pope a stoute Bishop that durst set Gods Prophet in the stockes This thing is set foorth in sundry places of the Prophets how the Priests the false Prophetes were linked together against the true messengers of the Lord. For ye may see how the Priests and Prophets and people lay hold on Ieremias Iere. 26. and would haue put him to death for the Priests Prophets accused Ieremias before the Princes that hee was worthy of death Eze. 22. The Prophet Ezechiel also complaineth grieuously of the Priestes and the Prophets Also long before the time of Ieremias Ezechiel the Lord complayned of the Priestes and Prophetes for their wickednesse For thus he saith by Mica Mica 3. the Princes iudge for bribes the Priests teach for reward and the Prophets do prophesie for money Behold also what God complaineth against the Priests and Prophetes euen in the dayes of the most godly king Iosia as ye may reade in the Prophet Sophanie Sopha 3. Likewise where the holy Ghost sheweth the cause of the great destruction which came vpon Hierusalem 2. Chro. 36 he saith that al the chiefe Priests and people committed many transgressions according to all the abhominations of the heathen and defiled the house of God which he had sanctified in Hierusalem how God sent vnto them his Prophetes but they would not heare them See then if the wickednesse of the Priests draw the Lord out of his Temple vnto which he had made so glorious promises and which he had chosen to be the place where he would be worshipped shall we now tie him to that chaire from which there haue come the most horrible villanies against God almost that euer were committed in the world shall we say that the most pure most holy God hath fastened himselfe to the mother of whoredomes and abominations Pa. Ye take great paines to small profit for a man may in a word ouerthrow all that you haue built ye haue shewed how the Priestes and gouernours in the Temple did corrupt their wayes and ioyned with the false Prophetes against the true messengers of the Lord. You gather out of this that there was no rule left in the Church for the people to trie the worship and seruice of God by but this conclusion of yours doth not follow because the corruption of maners and withstanding the true Prophets did not hinder but that they remayned still the Church and the worship appointed in the Temple was not to be despised for if any did forsake it they were indeed Apostats for whē they were euen at the worst Christ sendeth such as he had cleansed of the leprosie to shew themselues to the Priest and to offer the gift which Moses had commanded This must needes be so for otherwise how should that saying of Christ Math. 18. dic ecclesiae tell the Church be a perpetuall rule to all the people if there be once no Church visible to tell that cause vnto where is then the doctrine and precept of Christ Here therefore I say still ye be heretikes and apostats insomuch as ye haue departed frō the holy mother the Church ye haue forsaken the fellowship of the faithfull that which ye pretend the abuses of the Church is no excuse at all for will ye forsake your mother because she wanteth perfect beauty or because there is some deformity in her the abuses are to be reformed the thing must not be destroyed I would wish ye therfore to returne and to submit your selues againe and not to cast away your soules for ye be all damned heretickes which be out of the Church Pro. The breath of your mouth is very strong when as with one blast ye are able to ouerthrow whatsoeuer a man can bring out of the word of God But ye deceiue your selfe greatly for Gods truth will stand when you shall fall Your poore and silly shifts wil stand ye in no steed you make your reason after this maner when the Priests were
space of these fiue hundred yeres It ye can shew any fathers in the Church which were godly and denyed the Pope shew them Or will ye speake of a church which ye can shewe no members of such folly there is in a number of yee Pro. Answere you to a question of mine and I wil giue you an answere by and by to yours when saint Iohn sayth Reuelation 13. All the world followed the beast power was giuen him to make warre with the Saints and to ouercome them And againe when all both smal and great rich poore bonde frée were compelled to receiue a marke and none might buy sel but those which had the marke or name of the beast or the number of his name Tell me where was the true Church then whē this was fulfilled whether were al those condemned or not if they returned not by repentance which worshipped the beast or had his marke Saint Iohn sayth they were killed with the sword not a temporall sworde Where then shall we in these times séeke out the godly fathers but such as were persecuted by the beast Of these there be histories which shew in all times that there were some Pa. I may soone answere your question by shewing your great ignorance He sayth all the world worshipped the beast and you will needes haue it to be the Church is there no difference betweene these two You must proue such a generall falling away of the whole church and not of the world God hath promised to be with his Church to the end of the world and therefore that can not fall away Did the beast which S. Iohn speaketh of cause all the Church to worship him If you can shew that then ye proue somewhat Pro. Here is a blind shift brought in to answere the question which I demand He sayth say you al the world you will haue it al the Church I do not say that any part of the Church did fall away if we vnderstand by the Church those which are the elect of God and the true members of Christs body for these can neuer be seduced to follow the beast Christ hath promised to be with these to the end of the world But when by the Church wee vnderstand all those companies which do professe Christ outwardly those may be seduced and fall from the truth being but the outward visible Church and these are here by S. Iohn called the world which thing is manifestly to be proued thus those nations people where the beast should reigne or which follow the beast are called the world now it is manifest that the beast being the same Antichrist which S. Paul setteth forth should reigne in the Church for he must sit in the Temple of God It is therefore also as manifest that the visible Church is called in that place the world The other nations of the world did not follow the beast But if any will be so wilfull peruerse as not to sée plainely by this that the beast shuld beare sway ouer the nations which were the visible church let thē further cōsider that S. Iohn doth plainly affirme that the beast should make war with the saints ouercome them If hee shall make war with the saints and ouercome them where shall he then raigne but in the visible Church the true saints of God shal not raign in the visible church outwardly for he shall outwardly ouercome them O wicked enemies and vpholders of the beast which because he hath for a time gotten the vpper hand in the Church ouer the saints would haue him continue so still for euer Pa. If a man should grant all that which you say that there should be a falling away in the church yet this is not likely that God would suffer the grea test part and almost all to perish For what a fewe haue those been which haue resisted the Pope in respect of those that haue ioyned with him Pro. This is a very foolish obiection especially to those which consider the state of Gods Church at all times in the world what a fewe were the séed of Abraham in respect of al other nations of the world whom God cast off many hundred yeeres what a few were they among the séede of Abraham which continued good in respect of those which did degenerate What a few were there in the Church when Christ came which were faithful it appeareth they were very fewe Pa. There be sundry things spoken by S. Paul concerning that Antichrist which should come and likewise by S. Iohn which cannot agree to the pope as for exāple the one doth say that the Lord shall destroy him with the breath of his mouth Where hath that been fulfilled in the pope the other sayth that Antichrist should continue but a short time he also setteth forth the time to be three daies and a halfe How absurdly then is this applyed to the Bishop of Rome which hath continued euer since the Apostles by succession Who is able to denie this I am afraid Antichrist if he be not yet come among you will come shortly for you are euen his forerunners Pro. Sundry things there are say you spoken by S. Paul and by S. Iohn concerning Antichrist which cannot agrée to the Pope And for example ye name two the one that it is said the Lord shal destroy him with the breath of his mouth the other that he should continue but a little while as namely thrée daies and an half These things agrée right wel to the Pope although this latter might séem to be otherwise for a thousand yeres if we respect it according to men is a long time but with the Lord it is but as yesterday Fiue or six hundred yeres by it selfe is somwhat but cōpared with eternity it is but a little so although we grant that it is almost a thousand yéeres since the Bishop of Rome was exalted so high yet it is but a while But say you the time is limitted thrée dayes an half is it possible that any man should reade the things vttered cōcerning Antichrist what he should doe and the same also set out by sounding of seuen Trumpets Reuela 16. in seuerall ages in which it is apparant he should continue that can bee so ignorant as to take it of common daies not euery day to containe many yeres are the wéekes in Daniel to be taken for seuen naturall dayes to the wéeke Daniel 9. when it is certaine that the seuen wéekes did containe almost fiue hundred yeres Ye are ouer foolish to make this cauil Where as ye say the Bishop of Rome hath continued euer since the time of the Apostles therefore it could not be vnderstood of him it is very true that there hath bin a succession of Bishops there euer since but yet not of such Bishops for sixe hundreth yeres after Christ were past before the Bishop of Rome was takē to be vniuersal Bishop and head of the
into the body He was not admitted to to goe to heauen nor to hell nor yet to Purgatorie But it séemeth our Lady was somwhat too hastie for being no better man she should first haue let him bin well fried in Purgatorie so peraduenture she would but that the diuell was so greedy that he would not tarrie She did not wisely neither for what a number of soules might she lose caught by other diuels whiles she was pleading for this S. Katherine did vowe her selfe to bee married to none but Christ and therefore the Virgin Marie did appeare to the holy Hermite Adrian sent him to bring Quéen Katherine to a place where the mariage should be solēnized which was a goodly gorgious Abbey erected for that vse where a multitude of glorious virgins did méet the new bride bring her in where she was maried to Christ in the presence of the blessed Lady whō they salute as Quéene of heauen Lady of the world Empresse of hell she biddeth her new daughter welcome she caried her into the quier to Christ who tooke her by the hand so was maried vnto her put a ring vpon her finger did charge her to kéepe it in remēbrance There was such a glory at that mariage as neuer the like the blessed Virgin also so glad of her new daughter and Christ of his new wife must néedes cause excéeding ioy Our blessed Lady came often among ye in those dayes and now she doth scarce visite ye once in seuen yeares What should be the cause is she wearied or hath she conceiued some displeasure against ye I pray ye tell me Pa. You are disposed to play and sport your selfe What if some did write such things which were their owne deuises Is the Church to be blamed and if so be they were allowed by the church you are not to be taken for an indifferent Iudge because you do not vnderstand them If the blessed Virgin did then appeare often it might be because they were then more worthy or some other cause which we know not Is it not enough now although she do not appeare that she heareth the prayers of those which cal vpon her helpeth thē Pro. If I play because I recite some part of your diuinity how did your good ghostly men play which deuised them Yea how did your Antichristian Synagogue play in setting them forth to be read openly to the people and that in the Church Your blind shiftes cannot serue the turne Your vaine spéech is not worth the answering Ye shall pardon me if I procéede a little further in the declaration of your holy lyes Ye haue a goodly historie if the booke of lyes be true of Saint Kenelme once king ouer some part of England wherein you haue many a faire myracle The story is very long and therefore I must tell but the summe of it King Kenelme had one sister which was a wicked woman hated him conspired his death with Asheberd his gouernour who going abroad with the king which being heauie and layd downe to sléepe the traytour made a pit purposed to kill him but he awoke and tolde him he did labour in vaine God would not haue him killed there He gaue him a small rod and told him that where he should set it in the earth there he should be martyred Then this traytor wēt forth together with him vnto a Hawthorne and there he pight the rod forth with it bare leaues and grew vp suddenly waxed a great Ash trée which doth stand there vnto this day is called Kenelmes Ash He smote off his head there and buried his body in a valley betwéene two high hils Then Quendred his wicked sister was glad and was Quéene Now although the body did lie in vnhallowed buriall yet no man durst take it vp for feare of Quendred the Quéene But a poore widow had a white cow which was euery day driuen into the wood of Clēt where she would depart from the rest of the kine and goe into the valley and there did rest all the day sitting by the corps and at night returned home neuer eate meate and yet was fatter and gaue more milk then any of the kine This thing did continue certaine yeres Afterward as the Pope was at Masse in Rome there came a white Doue and let fall a scroll vpon the Altar in which was written thus in letters of golde In Clent in Cowbage Kenelme king borne lieth vnder a thorne his head off shorne The Pope and all his could not tell the meaning thereof vntill an English man did expound it The Pope did send to the Archbishop of Canterbury willed the body should be taken vp They came to the place which they knew by the white cow they digged vp the body and in the place there did spring vp a well which is called Kenelms well vnto this day where many of the people haue béen healed When they had vp the body it was brought to the Abbey of Winchcomb By the way they were so drie that they fainted The Abbot of Winchcombe pitched his crosse downe there sprang vp a well Before they came at the Abbey all the bels did ring without mans hand Quendred demanded wherefore the bels did ring it was told her that the body of her brother was taken vp and that the bels did ring alone That is euen as true sayd she as both mine eyes are fallē out of my head vpon this booke And by and by both her eyes fell vpon her Psalter vpon which she was reading and it is séene to this day where they fell vpon the booke This is all as true as any lye in the world may be Pa. What of all this how can you tell whether this were true Why might it not be so Pro. It might bee true as well as the rest of all your lying wonders which yee coyned to seduce the blinde people into Idolatry Ye had gotten this aduantage to perswade that the Pope could not lye nor erre And therefore whatsoeuer ye did inuent although it were neuer so grosse it would be credited not onely when they prayed to an Image to make them beléeue that it did sweate in taking paynes to pray for them and rowle the eyes but also all your fained wonders of which I will yet giue a little further taste For although they may séeme vnprofitable to bee vttered yet because they declare your spirit of lying whereby Antichrist is knowne there is vse in them What a goodly storie is there of your Saint Dominike When he was at Rome hee sawe in a night Iesu Christ in the ayre holding thrée speares brandishing them against the world and his mother ran hastely against him demaunded what he would doe He sayd all the world is full of vices and therefore I will destroy them with these speares Then shée fell downe at his féete and sayd Deare sonne haue pitie tarie thy iustice by thy mercie He
is among you Papists Some one of ye doe deuise a lye and then ye tosse it from one to another vntill at the last it hath a passeport giuen it from such credible men that it may go where it wil. But I will let this passe and come to some other of your wicked meanes by which yee labour to stay vp the rotten chayre of Antichrist I will come yet to greater and more shamefull villanies which trueth neuer néedeth because the Lord doth support her Pa. Can you finde such matters against vs and not see your selues I warrant ye that which ye doe accuse vs of is to be found in you howsoeuer ye accuse vs and excuse your selues Pro. Where can ye finde that euer the truth was maintained by periuries and breaking couenants Let a man reade and reade again among all Heathen men Turks and Iewes where shall he finde that it hath bin taken generally to be allowed that they might sweare and forsweare to deceiue and not make conscience to kéepe the oth Among you this is a principle faith is not to bee kept with heretikes Which also yee doe from time to time put in practise It is not to bee looked for that you should sticke to make lyes when yee dare publish it to the world in writing that ye may lawfully forsweare your selues and breake the faith which ye haue giuen by oth By this meanes ye haue cōmitted very horrible slaughters and cruell murthers the like whereof haue scarsely béen heard of Are these practises of God O ye bloody periured forsworne wretches Doth the holy Ghost leade men into such kind of dealing no verely it is the spirit of the father of lyes of periuries of murthers which ye are lead withall Gods spirit is the spirit of trueth hee neuer teacheth men to lye and to deale falsly and therefore those people are bewitched which think the Pope his adherēts to bee lead by the spirit of God when as they be so full of all abominable treacheries Pa. What should we meddle with these things I cannot tell how a man should perswade you to see the authoritie of the Church You iudge of all things after your owne reason I haue no delight to deale in these matters I will not say that which I could say Pro. I cannot blame ye that ye are loth to meddle in these matters It were a great deale better if they were kept close among your selues For now no man that is wise will trust ye neither vpon promise nor yet vpon oth which ye breake so often There be many goodly rules which ye deuise now secretly among your selues But what should you go about to perswade with me in these matters which am not first perswaded how great authoritie the Church hath For ye haue none other argument but the authoritie of the Church to allow these things Gods word doth curse and condemne periuries and murders committed by such treacheries To dispute out of that for the maintenance of them yee know yee shall haue but a cold suite of it It is a great deale better therefore to lay the word of God aside and to set forth what power the new God hath for to change the nature of things He is of another maner power then men wéete The GOD which hath spoken in the Scriptures can doe nothing nor say nothing but trueth but the God of Rome hath power to do what he will and to say what hee list whether it bee true or false This is a mightie God he can play both fast and loose at his pleasure Let a thing bée neuer so much commended by God in the Scriptures if he say it is naught then is it naught So on the other side whatsoeuer it bee that is condemned to be euill he hath power to make it good This is the cause why you say many are deceiued they looke but to the Scriptures and forget this God which hath power ouer the Scriptures Pa. If you may accuse what ye list then it were well But let vs see wherein the Pope hath challenged any such power Pro. Haue not I shewed ye already in some part as in lyes murders and periuries Will ye haue more what say ye to treasons and rebellions Doth not the Pope make it lawfull to commit treason Doth he not discharge subiects of their obedience and subiection to their Prince Doth he not giue any of them leaue to kill their Prince and maketh it a worke greatly meritorious What diuell can goe further then this Doth not God set vp Princes and hath not hee put the sword into their hands Doth not he charge men to bée subiect to obey them Doth not he say that whosoeuer doth resist them doth resist the ordinance of God and that those which doe resist do purchase to themselues damnation O ye traiterous wretches doe ye not sée that yée draw all those into damnation vnder Gods curse whom ye draw from their loue and obedience towards their Prince Let all men consider this hath a greasie balde Priest of Italie power against Gods word to giue leaue to subiects and inferiour persons in England to play the vilaines and traytors against their soueraigne prince whom God hath set ouer them for whose defence God doth require at their hands to giue their liues Shal the foule beast of Rome haue power to reward that déede in heauē which God hath threatned to punish in hell Let all the people of this land consider this and shun such filthy abominable men Some will say wherefore should wee eschew them being honest If ranke traytors be honest then are all the Iesuites Seminaries and popish priests with such as loue and harbour them to be counted honest Pa. I see more and more that I cannot preuaile by speaking and therefore I will giue ye ouer say euen what ye list I see it is good for a man to take heed with whom he doth talke I could answere ye to the full if it might doe good Thus much I will say that it is one thing to commit treason against a prince which is godly and another thing to kill an heretike which is no lawfull prince The subiects indeede may not disobey and rebell but when the prince is no right prince then they are no longer subiects What say ye to Ehud in the booke of the Iudges did not he slay Eglon king of Moab and that vnder colour of a message What say ye to Iehoiada the priest did not hee cause them to slay Athaliah when she had reigned certaine yeares and set vp Ioash to bee king If the priest of the law had this power how much more the priest of the Gospell Pro. Ye would giue me ouer now ye say but your traiterous heart is so full that it will not suffer ye Indéede I know ye like it much better to deale among the vnlearned people whom ye may draw to your opinion or with such as ye know to beare the same minde
wee condemne it and hate it more then you do And although ye goe about to abuse and wrest the scriptures against vs yet ye shall neuer bee able to driue any true Catholike from the right pure and deuout worship of God Pro. Will ye confesse if I proue that you are Idolaters that yours is the false Church and that ye are fallen away from the trueth that the Pope is Antichrist Pa. I must needes confesse that Idolaters are fallen from the trueth but where as ye make offer to proue that we commit Idolatrie I say still wee be the furthest frō it of all other And in this I think my selfe sufficiently armed to stand against all the heretikes in the world proue what ye can Pro. Al those which worship idols are condemned in the holy Scriptures to be idolaters But it seemeth you Papists doe not worship idols at least ye would beare men in hand ye doe not when as in very déede ye doe it in most shamefull maner Where hath it euer béene heard of that men haue more doted vpō stocks and stones then the Papists Wil ye stil then be past shame and say you hate idolatrie you are furthest from it of all other Pa. I say still and neede not be ashamed that it is the blindnesse of you heretikes which either cannot or will not see that ours is no Idolatrie This sin of Idolatrie is where they worship Idols wee haue images of the true God of the blessed Virgin of the Apostles and of other Saints wee haue no idols of feined and false Gods wee worship not the images themselues neither but the things which are by them represented Moreouer we doe not giue latria to the images of Saints but dulia which God in the scriptures doth neuer condemne I say therefore ye helpe vs when ye say we worship stocks and stones or that we worship any besides the true God You are the idolaters your selues Pro. You would faine purge and cléere your selues from idolatrie and therefore ye haue deuised these distinctions first ye would make a difference betwéene Idoll and Image yours are Images but not Idols Secondly ye shift the matter that ye do not worship the Images themselues but that which the Image doth put ye in minde of And last of all your déepe distinction betwéene latria which is worship which ye giue onely to God and dulia which is seruice which ye bestow vpon the Saints I will lay open how vaine these things are and yet how they be subtill to deceiue poore ignorant soules Pa. I know your answers well enough ye take vpon ye to defend that an Idoll and an Image are all one And so when it is said God made man after his owne Image yee may translate it after his owne Idoll It may be said of the picture image of the prince this is the princes Idoll Likewise if a painter paint an image of a dog ye may say this is an Idoll of a dog Ah Sirs this is ouer grosse ye shew by this what your skill is in other things Pro. Now must ye néeds win the spurres because wee say that Image and Idoll is all one sauing that the one is Greeke and the other Latin Ye say thē we must say God made man after his owne Idoll which were very grosse I confesse that in our tongue it were grosse indéed because the word Idoll is by common vse of spéech taken alwaies in euill part but in the Gréeke tongue it was not so But I will come néerer vnto ye to shew your deceitfull dealing in this shall wee desire a better iudge in this matter then the Hebrew tongue in the scriptures in which it is said that God made man after his owne image and in which there is much spoken of idols What if I proue that hee vseth the same word where hee speaketh of idols which he vseth where hee saith God made man after his owne image Will there then be such a difference Pa. When I see this then I will beleeue it before I will not the Scriptures do speake of images it may be there is the same word But you must proue it where hee doth speake it of those which were idols indeed of the heathen of false gods Pro. I wil shew where he speaketh of idols indéed which were worshipped by the heathē and proue that he vseth the same word The word in Moses is Tselem after which Adam was created Gen. 1. Now looke where hee speaketh to the children of Israel by Moses to command them to break down the idols of the heathen and ye shall finde the same word As Numb 33. He saith ye shall destroy Tsalme Massecotham that is their moulten images In the 2. booke of Kings chap. 11. it is said They went into the house of Baal and brake downe his images which he calleth by the same name By this it doth appeare that in the holy scriptures there is no such difference betwéene idol and image as the Papists would beare men in hand For these were idols by their owne confession which yet are set forth vnder that same word which Moses vseth for the likenes of God after which man was created Pa. All this doth proue nothing for wee doe grant that which ye haue said Because idols be also images although euery picture and image bee not an idol for an idol is an image which is worshipped and taken to be God Pro. It doth proue this for which I did alleage it that the same word is in that tongue vsed indifferently for the image of GOD and for the idols of the heathen But because ye say it doth proue nothing séeing idols be images although euery image is not by and by an idol vnlesse it be worshipped Let me demand this Is not that which is forbidden to bee made in the Scriptures an idoll Pa. I know no man which doth deny but that is an idoll which the Scriptures do forbid But you must go further then that for ye must proue that those which the Scripture doth forbid are but called images and so images and idols to be all one Pro. Ye say right for those which the scripture condemneth we must cōfesse to be idols then if I proue that the scripture doth condēne images it must néeds follow that they be idols I require no more for it is manifest that the Scripture doth forbid all images of God as in Deuterono 4. there is forbidden not onely Semel but also Temnuah and Tabnith And in Esay 40. Demuth Who will bee so mad as to deny but that here are images forbidden and therefore that images are idols Pa. I see no cause why I should not deny it for they were also idols because they were made to be worshipped Pro. I sée no cause why I may not estéeme you to be obstinatly blinded Because in these places which I haue cited he doth not onely speake of the true GOD but also the reasons which are set downe