it well beseemeth a religious Prince to commaund Bishops in such things mary this was heauie to me that my Soueraigne Lord did not rebuke him for his pride but indeuor to bow me from my purpose which in this cause stand with humilitie and sinceritie to defend the Gospel and Canons Hee rather is worthie to bee threatned with your Maiesties commandement which refuseth to be subiect to the Canons he to be repressed which offereth a wrong to the vniuersall Church Let my Lord I beseech him somewhat respect me being his own whom he hath alwayes fauored aboue others which am also very desirous to yeeld him obedience and yet am I loth to be conuicted in that last fearfull iudgement of ouer much negligence Let my Soueraign Lord voutsafe to sit iudge in this matter himself or els to make him to surcease his inteÌ„t I as obedieÌ„t to my Lords precepts haue gentlely written to my said fellow Bishop humbly warned him to forgo that vaine title As much as in me lieth I am readie to obey the commandement of your Maiestie yet for that the cause is not mine but Gods not I alone but the whole church is troubled let my gracious Lord launce the right place where the wound is and subdue the patieÌ„t that resisteth him with the strength of his imperiall power Againe when Maximus was ordered Bishop of Salona within Gregories Prouince yet without Gregories knowledge thus he coÌ„planeth of him to Constantia then Empresse The Bishop of Salona was ordered neither I nor my respoÌ„sarie witting therof which thing was neuer atteÌ„pted vnder any of the Princes your predecessors Assoone as I vnderstood therof I sent him word that he should not presume to celebrate diuine seruice that he meaneth by the name of Masse vntill I heard from my Soueraigne Lords that it was their pleasure it should be so but he setting naught thereby despising me goeth on stil will not resort vnto me according as my Lords coÌ„manded him Yet I obeying their graces precept did from my hart remit vnto the said Maximus this his presumption as freely as if he had been ordered Bishop by my consent Onely other offences of his as fleshly wantonnes entrance by Simony ministring the Lords supper after he was put from the coÌ„munioÌ„ these things I can not skip vnexamined for my duties sake to God before these things could be tried my soueraign Lord preuenting me with his precept commanded that I should receiue the said Maximus at his comming with all honour This is a pitifull case that a man accused of so great crimes should be honored before hee bee cleared if the faultes of those Bishops which be committed to my charge be born out with my gracious Lords in this sort by secret fauorers vnhappy man that I am what make I here in this church Wel that mine own Bishops contemne me haue a refuge against me to secular iudges I can not but thanke God impute it to my sinnes If the Bishop of Rome despised and ouerruled in his Episcopall iurisdictioÌ„ neither plead his own supremacy nor once kick at the Princes autority but rather submit himselfe as a seruant subiect of duty to the princes pleasure so far as he might with a safe conscience to Godward besides the man so religious the matter so serious that in this case iesting were not excusable lying intollerable then may you be fully resolued that the primatiue church neuer heard of this leud arrogant presumption which the Pope now claimeth vsurpeth I meane to be master deposer of Princes but that contrariewise the Bishops of Rome themselues euen in causes Ecclesiasticall kept the lawes and obeied the precepts of Christian Emperours as of their liege Lords soueraigne rulers The wordes of Gregorie be so vehement euident to this effect that no face caÌ„ deny them no cunning auoid them You must needs seeke farther for a new distinction Your first is foolish your second is false neither of them coherent with the sacred Scriptures or auncient histories Neither was Gregory the last Bishop of Rome that yeelded obedience to the princes power in causes ecclesiastical Agatho Bishop of that See 680. yeares after Christ when Constantine the 1. sent for certaine learned skilful men of the West parts to treat confer with the Grecians in the sixt general councell about the truth of religion returned this dutiful effectual answere Most gracious Lord saith he to CoÌ„stantine ioyning with him Heraclius Tiberius his brethren your sacred letters incouraging vs to shew foorth effectually our prompt diligent seruice for perfourming that which your edict coÌ„maunded for discharge of our duty to choose the fittest that could be found in this decaied age wretched prouince we haue directed these our fellow seruants according to the most godly precept of your Maiesty in regard of obedieÌ„ce which we did ow not for presumption of their knowledge for we waxed not bold vpon their cunning but your princely fauor mildly coÌ„manding so much did incite vs our basenesse hath obediently fulfilled that which was by you commaunded And in his second epistle to the same Princesse he saith Al the Bishops of the North West partes seruants of your christian Empire giue thanks to God for this your religious intent The calling of generall Councels to debate matters of faith is a point that precisely concerneth the regiment of Christs church in that case we see the Bishop of Rome confesseth himselfe a seruant sheweth himselfe obedient to the princes precept assuring vs by plaine words and agâ—eeable deeds that this humility proceeded not froÌ„ any iesting humor or fained submission but from the singlenes of his hart in respect of his bounden duty which auerreth our assertion clearly conuinceth that the Princes authoritie was then superiour to the Popes euen in causes Ecclesiasticall which you defend to be no way pertinent to the ciuill magistrate I wil end with Leo the 4. the selfsame that first submitted himself to Lodouik the father after coÌ„firmed his obedience to Lotharius the son in these words As touching the chapters imperiall preceps of your Highnes the Princes your predecessors irrefragablely to be kept obeied as much as in vs did or dothly we by al meanes professe that we wil by Christes helpe now and for euer obserue the same if any man hath or shall informe otherwise your Maiestie may right well assure your selfe it is an vntrue tale The chapters of Charles Lodouike and Lotharius for persons and causes Ecclesiastical I repeated before to those the Bishop of Rome eight hundred and fiftie yeares after Christ promiseth and sweareth not onely present but also perpetuall obedience to the vtmost of his power without all contradiction It is easie to see which of these twaine was superiour hee that had power to make Lawes not he that was bound
not carnal hir delights are not outward in flesh but inward in grace the prophet good mā had no leasure to thinke on your farms demeans reuenues This promise must be common to the faithfull not priuat to your cloisterers which in earthly things plied the bottle so fast that they suckt their nurces dry No remedy you must needs yeeld vs that christiā princes in respect of their office not of their riches haue receiued an expresse commandemēt from God to shew thēselues nurces to his church Now nurces by nature must prouide food for their infants defend them from dāger ergo kings queenes in the new testamēt are boūd to tēder the church of Christ by their princely power publik lawes to defend the same from infection of heresies inuasion of schisms all other apparent corruptions of faith good maners Who saith S. Aug. being in his right wits wil say to christiā kings take you no care who defēdeth or impugneth in your realms the church of christ your master Let it not pertain to you who lift to be religious or sacrilegious within your kingdōs And left he should seem skāt resolued in this opinion he biddeth opē defiāce to the Donatists in these words Cry thus if you dare let murders be punished let adulteries be punished let other degrees of lust sinne be punished only sacrileges that is cōtēpt of God his truth or his church we wil not haue punished by princes lawes And againe Will the Donatists though they were cōuinced of a sacrilegious schisme say that it belongeth not to the princes power to correct or punish such things Is it because such powers do not stretch to corrupt false religiō But christiā emperors persecute the Pagās doth that displease thē The works of the flesh Paul nūbreth these fornicatiō vncleanes strife dissentiō heresie drunkēnes such other What thinke these mē may the crime of idolatry be iustly reuēged by the magistrate wel if that like them not why cōfesse they that witches be rightly punished by the rigor of princes lawes will not agnise that heretikes schismatikes may bee repressed by the same seeing Paul doth rehearse them togither with other fruites of iniquity Will they reply that earthly powers are not to medle with such matters of religion To what end then beareth he the sword which is called Gods minister seruing to punish malefactors Certainly Princes c. If this learned father can not fray you from reuiuing the frantick error of the Donatists against the Princes power in matters of religion I trust you will somwhat reuerence the precept which our Sauior in his Gospell gaue the magistrate when he had the first sort of ghestes to be brought to the great supper the second to be forced Go sayth he forth into the wayes and hedges Compell thē to come in that mine house may be filled Wee take wayes sayth Austen for heresies hedges for schismes because wayes in this place signifie the diuersenes and hedges the peruersenes of opinions House God hath none but his house of prayer neither table beside the Lords table So that this seruant is expressely charged to Compel them from heresies and schismes to the confession of truth consent of prayer and communion of the Lordes table To performe this Christ hath left no seruant but the minister or the magistrat no meanes saue the word or the sword To compell heretiks and schismatiks neither is it possible for the preacher if he would nor lawful if he could he lacketh both meanes and leaue to constraine them His calling is with patience to teach not with violence to force to feede not to stryke to reproue with tongue not to subdue with hand Only the Prince beareth the sword which can and may compell recusants and therefore Bishops since they be flatly forbidden to Rayne must not meddle with the material sword being the chiefest part strength of an earthly kingdom neither ought any to draw the sword but he that holdeth it in Gods stead to reward and reuenge Ergo these wordes Compell them to come in that mine house may be filled were spoken to Christian Princes and are to them both a warrant and a charge to represse schismes and heresies with their Princely power which they receiued from aboue cheefly to maintaine Gods glorie by causing the bands of vnitie to be preserued in the Church and the rules of fayth obserued To the same purpose S. Austen in many places alleageth this parable The Lord himself sayth he willed the ghests first to be brought then to be forced What meaneth he by this Compell them to come when as he sayd of the first bring them If he ment they should be compelled by terror of miracles then might the first sort of ghests which saw many diuine wonders be rather thought to be forced but if by the power which the Church receaued at Gods hand in due time through the religion faith of kings those that are found in high wayes hedges that is in heresies schismes must be compelled to come let them not mislike that they be forced This cōmaunding by Princely power occasioneth many to be saued which though they be violently brought to the feast of the great householder and compelled to come yet being within they find cause to reioyce that they did enter for both sorts of commers as well violently forced as willingly brought the Lord fortold hath fulfilled Therfore let earthly princes serue Christ in making Lawes for Christ wherby mē may be forced to come to the great holy banquet yea by banishments other losses let their subiects begin to weigh with themselues what why they suffer learne to prefer the Scriptures which they read before the reportes and cauils of mē I thinke it superfluous to staie longer in confirming so manifest a truth He that is of God heareth the words of God he that impugneth them quarreleth not with Princes which yet is no small offence but with him by whom Princes raigne whose wisedom may not easily be neglected nor will resisted If you deny that this is the Princes charge to see the law of God fully executed his Sonne rightly serued his spouse safely nourced his house timely filled his enemies duely punished you must counteruaile that which Moses prescribed Dauid required Esay prophesied Paul witnessed Christ commaunded with some better sounder authority than theirs is If you grant so much we wil aske no more the Princes duety to God once cōfessed the rest shal quickly be concluded Phi. In a sense it is true that you say Theo. It is simply true that I say for in your owne iudgement may the Christian faith be freely permitted publikely receiued in kingdoms common wealthes Phi. No doubt Theo. May godly discipline be likewise planted and preserued amongest men and the disturbers and neglecters of it repressed and ordered
betweene two Metropolitanes and that the confirming of Bishops be not long differed neither any Bishop remoue from his diocesse without the decree of other Bishops That no lay man presume to place or displace Clerks but by the Bishops Consent That excommunications be not ouer rife and for trifeling causes That euery Church haue a Priest as soone as the Bishop can prouide Item the Bishop shal looke that the Church of God haue due honor no secular busines nor vaine iangling shal be suffered in the Church because the howse of God is the howse of praier but that al men haue their mindes attentiuely bent to God when they come to masse and not depart before the Priest haue ended his blessing Because Canonicall profession partly for ignorance partly for sloth was very much defaced we tooke paines at our sacred session to gather as it were certaine sweet flowers out of the monuments of blessed writers and proportion a rule both for women and men of Canonicall conuersation which the whole assemblie so well liked of that they thought it worthie to bee kept without alteration and therefore wee decree that all of that sort hold it without failing and in any case hereafter obserue the same How we haue disposed touching Monckes and giuen them leaue to chose an Abbat of themselues and ordered their purpose of life wee haue caused to be drawen in an other schedule and confirmed it that it might stand good and inuiolable with the Princes our successors Prouided always that laymen be neither ouerseers of Moncks nor Archdeacons We heare say that certaine Abbesses against the manner of the Church of God giue blessing with laieng their hands and making the signe of the Crosse on the heads of men Know you sacred fathers that this must be vtterly forbidden in your diocesse Wee haue a precept in Deuteronomie No man shall consult a southsaier obserue dreames or respect diuinations there shal bee no sorcerer no inchaunter no coniurer Therefore wee commaund that none calculate practise charmes or take vppon them to Prophesie what weather shall come but wheresoeuer such bee founde either to bee refourmed or condemned Likewise for trees rockes springs where some fooles make their obseruations wee giue straite charge that this wicked vse detected of GOD be banished euerie where and destroyed Of mariage your demaund whether a man may take to wife a mayde that is espoused to an other In any case we forbid it because that blessing which the Priest giueth her that is betrothed is to the faithful in manner of a sacrilege if it any way be violated THAT our visitours looke diligently in euery Citie Monasterie and Nunrie howe the buildinges and ornaments of the Church bee kept and make diligent inquirie for the conuersation of all persons there and howe that which wee commaunded is refourmed in their reading singing and other disciplines pertayning to the rules of eccelsiasticall order Certaine Chapters as of incestuous mariages Churches that lacke their right honour or haue beene lately spoyled and if there bee any other ecclesiasticall or common wealth matters worthie to bee redressed which for shortnes of tyme wee coulde not nowe finish wee thinke good to differre them vntill by Gods helpe and the aduise of our faythfull Counsellers oportunitie serue vs to determine the same There bee sixe score chapters besides these recorded by the same writer of the lawes that Charles made touching ecclesiasticall Persons and causes which I for breuitie sake omitte leauing you to consider of them when you see your time Charles by these publike lawes appointed what doctrine should be preached what abuses in the Lords supper amended what parts of diuine seruice pronounced by the Priest and people together with one voyce what bookes should bee read in the Church what holy dayes obserued what memories of Saints abolished what woorkes on Sonday prohibited hee prescribed the Bishops their dueties the Priestes their charge the Monkes their rules hee directed thee keeping of Synodes electing and translating of Bishoppes ordering and placing of Clerkes paying and employing of Tythes decided what shoulde become of their mariages that were taken away by force or affianced before to others forbad the burying of dead corses in the Church banished Sorcerie Simonie Usurie Periurie last of all vndertooke that if any thing were wanting which needed reformation in causes ecclesiasticall it shoulde bee supplyed of him at his leasure If Charles had the regiment of monasticall profession episcopall iurisdiction canonicall conuersation if hee did I say medle with redressing errors in fayth abuses in sacramentes disorders in diuine seruice superstition in funerals othes charmes and such other matters as by the purport of these chapters it is euident he did what causes can you deuise more spirituall than these Will you permitte these thinges of most importance to the Princes power and except other of lesse moment That were notorious follie You must either inuest them with all or exclude them first from the weightiest For if they be gouernours of the greatest ecclesiasticall affayres much more doth their authoritie stretch to the smalest Againe these Lawes of Charles which amount to the number of eight skore and three what do they lacke of a full direction for all matters needing reformation in the Church of God Any thing or nothing If nothing then this prince gouerned ordered al ecclesiasticall causes If any thing that Charles him selfe assureth vs he would determine when occasion serued Choose whether you wil Charles either way shewed the lawful power of Princes to direct establish all thinges requisite to the faith and Church of Christ. For what hee promised aduisedly to doe no doubt hee ment it shoulde and thought it might bee iustly perfourmed So did Ludouike his sonne and Lotharius his nephew the next Emperours after him whose proceedings declare what account they made of these chapters and with what diligence they put them in executiō The monuments of so good Princes I may not ouerslip with silence their deeds did then profit the Church of God their wordes will nowe profite vs. Thus did Ludouike and Lotharius his sonne write to the Bishoppes and magistrates of their Empire You haue all I doubt not either seene or heard that our father and our progenitors after they were chosen by God to this place MADE THIS THEIR PRINCIPAL STVDIE howe the honour of Gods holy Church and the state of their kingdome might bee decently kept and wee for our part following their example since it hath pleased God to appoint vs that we should haue the care of his holy church and this Realme are very desirous so long as wee liue to labour earnestly for three speciall points I meane to defende exalt and honour Gods holy Church and his ministers in such sort as is fit to preserue peace and do iustice among the people AND THOVGH THE CHIEFE OF THIS MINISTERIE CONSIST IN OVR PERSON
For Noli te extollere sed esto Deo subditus exalt not thy selfe but bee subiect to God you say Exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure and suppresse the rest which should declare when a Prince exalteth himselfe aboue his measure to wit when he is not subiect to God The next wordes which you bring When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishops are not found Ibidem as you quote them that is Epistola 33 ad sororem but Epistola 32 ad Valentinianum Imperatorem And In causa fider In a matter of faith which Ambrose addeth you leaue out in the first sentence though you double it at y◠latter end These scapes I will winke at and come to the words themselues Thinke not thy selfe to haue any Emperial right ouer diuine things Neither do we say Princes haue for an emperial right is to commaund alter and abrogate what they think good which is lawful neither for men nor Angels in diuine matters Palaces are for Princes and Churches for Priests this was truely saide if you know not the reason Churches were first appointed for publike praier and preaching which belong to the Priests and not to the Princes function And for that cause Bishops were to teach Princes which was the right faith Princes were not to teach the Bishops much lesse to professe thēselues iudges of trueth as Valentinian did when he said Ego debeo iudicare I ought to bee iudge whether Christ be God or no for that was the question between the Arrians and Ambrose and that was the word which S. Ambrose stoutly but wisely refused When we say that Princes be iudges of faith bring S. Ambrose against vs and spare not but we bee farther off from that impietie to make men iudges ouer God than you be Doe you not make the Prince iudge of faith Theo. You know we do not Phi. Produce not vs for witnesses we know no such thing Theo. Your own acts shall depose for vs if your mouthes will not If we make Princes to bee iudges of faith why were so many of vs consumed not long since in England with fier and fagot for disliking that which the Prince and the Pope affirmed to be faith Why at this day doe you kill and murder elsewhere so many thousands of vs for reiecting that as false religion which the kings princes of your side professe for true If wee make Princes iudges why do we rather loose our liues than stand to their iudgemēts Your stakes that yet be warm your swords that yet be bloodie do witnes for vs and against you that in matters of faith we make neither Prince nor Pope to be iudge God is not subiect to the iudgemēt of man no more is his trueth Phi. What power then do you giue to Princes Theo. What power so euer we giue them we giue them no power to pronounce which is trueth Phi. What do you then Theo. Neuer aske that you know Haue we spent so many words and you now to seeke what we defend But you see S. Ambrose maketh nothing for you And therefore you picke a quarell to the question Phi. S. Ambrose would not yeeld Valentinian the Emperour so much as a Church in Millan and when hee was willed to appeare before the Emperour in his consistorie or els depart the Citie he would do neither Theo. You care not to fit your purpose though you make S. Ambrose a sturdie rebell You would fayne find a president to colour your headynes against the Prince but in Ambrose you can not his answere to Valentinian was stout but lawfull constant but Christian as the circumstances of the facts will declare Valentinian a yong Prince incensed by Iustina his mother and other Eunuches about him willed Ambrose to come and dispute with Auxentius the Arrian in his consistorie before him and hee would bee iudge whether of their two religions were truest and which of them twaine shoulde bee Bishop of Millan Auxentius or Ambrose otherwise to depart whither he would To this Ambrose made a sober and duetifull answere in defence of himselfe and his cause and gaue it in writing to Valentinian shewing him amongst other things that he was yong in yeres a nouice in faith not yet baptised rather to learne than to iudge of bishops that the consistorie was no fit place for a priest to dispute in where the hearers should be Iewes on gētiles so scoffe at Christ the Emperour himselfe partial as appeared by his Law published before that time to impugne the truth As for departing if he were forced he would not resist but with his consent he could not relinquish his church to saue his life wtout great sinne And because Auxentius his companions vrged this that the Emperour ought to be iudge in matters of faith Saint Ambrose followeth and refelleth that word as repugnant not onely to the diuine Scriptures but also to the Romane lawes Conclusus vndique ad versutiam patrum suorum confugit de Imperatore vult inuidiam commouere dicens iudicare debere adolescentē catechumenū sacrae lectionis ignarum in consistorio iudicare Auxentius driuen to his shiftes hath recourse to the craft of his forefathers seeking to procure vs enuie by the Emperours name and sayth the Prince ought to bee iudge though hee bee yong not yet baptized and ignorant of the Scriptures and that in the Consistorie And to the Emperour himselfe Your father a man of riper yeeres sayde It is not for mee to bee iudge betweene Bishoppes doeth your clemencie nowe at these yeeres say I ought to bee iudge And hee baptized in Christ thought himselfe vnable for the weight of so great a iudgement doeth your clemencie that hath not yet obtayned to the Sacrament of baptisme chalenge the iudgement of fayth whereas yet you knowe not the mysteries of fayth No man shoulde thinke mee stubburne when I stand on this which your father of famous memorie not onely pronounced in woordes but also confirmed by his Lawes that in a cause of fayth or ecclesiasticall order hee shoulde be iudge that was both like in function and ruled by the same kind of right For those be the words of the Rescript his meaning was hee woulde haue Priests to bee iudges of Priests Then follow the wordes which you cite When euer didst thou heare most clement Emperour in a cause of fayth that Laymen iudged of bishops Shall wee so bend for flatterie that we should forget the right or duetie of Priests and what God hath bequeathed to me I should commit to others If a Bishop must be taught by a Layman what to follow let a Lay man then dispute or speake in the Church and a Bishop be an auditor let the Bishop learne of a Layman But surely if we suruey the course of the diuine Scriptures or auncient times who is there that can deny but in a cause of faith in a
you not answere Amen and saying so with a loud voice do you not signe your selues in the holie solemnitie at the kinges edict What Moses Iosua Dauid Salomon Asa Iehosaphat Ezechias Manasses Iosias Nehemias did for the planting preseruing and purging of true religion and how they commaunded reproued and punished as well Priestes as others for spirituall crimes and causes the places are infinite and witnessed in no worse recordes than the Scriptures themselues I will not touch them all but onely shew that euery one of these in their times raignes medled with Ecclesiasticall men and matters which is the point that you would impugne by your allegations Moses the ciuill Magistrate reproued Aaron the high Priest for making the golden calfe and stamping it to powder cast it into the water that Israell might drinke it and in one daie put three thowsand of them for that idolatrie to the sworde And after the rebellion of Corah when the residue were plagued for murmuring against Moses and Aaron Moses commaunded Aarō to take the censer and stand betweene the liuing and the dead to make attonement for the people And as during life Moses guided ruled them in al things both spiritual and temporal so readie to depart he carefully warned and finally blessed the twelue tribes of Israell Iosua that succeeded him a Prince not a Priest was charged by God to meditate in the booke of the law day night that thou maiest obserue saith God and do according to all that is written therein and the people receiued him with this submission As we obeied Moses in all things so will we obey thee Whosoeuer shall rebell against thy commaundement and will not obey thy wordes in all that thou commandest him let him be put to death And least you should thinke that he commaunded in nothing but temporall matters he circumcised the sonnes of Israell erected an Altar of stone for their offerings read the whole law to them there was not a word of all that Moses commaunded which Iosua read not before all the congregation searched and punished the concealer of thinges dedicated to idols not long before he died in his owne person renewed the couenant betweene God and the people caused them to put away the strange Gods that were among them insomuch that by his diligent care and good regiment Israell serued the Lord all the dayes of Iosua How far king Dauid medled with matters of religion if the Psalmes which he made for Asaph and his brethren to sing in assemblies and order which hee set for the whole seruice of the Temple appointing the Priestes Leuites Singers and other Seruitours of the church their dignities courses and offices did not declare the charge which he gaue to king Salomon his sonne and the praise which he gate at Gods handes for the faithfull execution and religious obseruation of his law giuen by Moses in all thinges and causes both spirituall and temporall are sufficient euidence Take heede to the charge of the Lord thy God saith Dauid to Salomon to walke in his waies and keepe his statutes his commaundementes and his iudgementes and his testimonies as it is written in the law of Moses This God himselfe repeated to Salomō proposing Dauid his father for a paterne vnto him If thou wilt walke before me as Dauid thy father walked in purenesse of heart and vprightnes to doe according to all that I haue commaunded thee and keepe my statutes and my iudgementes I will establish the throne of thy kingdom vpon Israell for euer Phi. Do these wordes proue that Dauid did or Salomon might medle with Ecclesiasticall matters Theo. These places and such like doe fully proue that the Kinges and Gouernours of Israell and Iudah were appointed by God himselfe to haue the custodie charge and ouersight of all thinges mentioned and expressed in Moses law Here you see the wordes are to do according to all that I haue commaunded thee and keepe my statutes and iudgementes To Iosua God saide that thou maiest obserue and doe according to all that is written in the booke of the Law and likewise of the king in generall The booke of the Law shall be with him and he shal read therein all the daies of his life that he may learne to keepe all the wordes of this Law and these ordinances to fulfill them The king was charged with all the wordes and ordinances of Moses Law the law of Moses contained al thinges which God required of Priestes or people both spirituall and temporall ergo the king was charged by God himselfe as well with all Ecclesiasticall thinges and causes as with Temporall And consequently Dauid and all other kinges that discharged their duties to God in such sort as hee inioyned them medled with all thinges and causes Ecclesiasticall and Temporall Phi. Frame your argument shorter Theo. They were charged with all ergo they should medle with all and some discharged their dueties to God for example such as were commended and fauored by God whom I before named ergo some did medle with al the preceptes of God both Ecclesiastical and Temporall Phi. They were charged to obserue the whole Law as all other men were Theo. They were charged for their owne persons as all priuate men were but as kinges they were charged for others in such manner as no subiect coulde be charged namely to see the lawe of God to be publikely receiued fully obserued within their Realmes and all other sortes of Religion and policie to bee cleane forbidden and banished Phi. This is your surmise Theo. It is S. Augustines maine collection in sundrie places fet from the verie Principles of reason and nature and confirmed by the warrant of the sacred Scriptures The king serueth God saith Saint Augustine As a man one waie as a king an other way As a man by liuing faithfully as a king by makeing Lawes with conuenient vigor to commaund that which is right forbid the contrarie And againe Kinges euen in that they be kinges haue to serue the Lord in such sort as none can do which are not kinges For kings in respect as they be kinges serue the Lord if in their kingdomes they cōmaund that which is good and forbid that which is euill How then saith he do kinges serue the Lord but by forbidding and punishing with a religious seueritie those thinges that are done against the commaundementes of the Lord And thus much the verie deriuation of the name doth inferre Rex à regendo dicitur a king is he that ruleth others and the relation of the worde doth teach vs there can be no king but in respect of his subiectes and his duetie towardes them is to direct and correct that is to commaund and punish in all thinges needefull Phi. What conclude you of all this Theo. That where God chargeth the king to keepe and obserue
and our lawes If either side mislike the cause shal deuolue to the Patriarke of the Prouince and he shall end it by the direction of the Canons and our lawes Clerks we permit none to bee made except they be lettered of a right faith honest conuersation haue neither Concubine nor bastardes but such as either be single men or had or haue one lawful wife and her the first no widowe nor diuorced woman nor otherwise interdicted by the lawes or Canons A Priest wee will not haue made vnder the age of fiue and thirtie neither a Deacon or Subdeacon vnder the age of fiue and twentie neither a Reader vnder eighteene A woman shall not bee admitted to serue the Church that is vnder fourtie or hath beene twise maried Many skore precepts besides these that I recken shall you finde in that constitution touching persons and causes ecclesiasticall with these words Volumus sancimus iubemus Wee wil decree commaund and other verbes equiualent prescribing directly to Bishops what order and course they shall keepe for the seemely regiment of Christes Church By the commandement of Iustinus vncle to Iustinian the Councell of Chalcedon was preached and established through the most holy Churches And by the commandement of an other Iustinus his nephew was Gregorie called from Mount Sina to be chiefe Bishoppe of Antioch next after Anastasius whom the Prince remoued from his seate for wasting the Church treasures Leo the successor and Anthemius that maried the daughter of Martian gaue forth this commandement Let no man be made a Bishop for intreatie or for mony If any man be detected to haue gotteÌ„ the seate of a bishop by rewards or to haue taken any thing for the electing or ordering of others let him be accused as for a publike crime and an offence committed against the state repelled from his priestly degree And we adiudge him not only to be depriued for euer of that honor but also to be condeÌ„ned to perpetual infamie And the same princes by their Edict more general We decree say they that those thinges which were in sort done against the Lord himselfe of true religion being abrogated and vtterly abolished al things be restoared againe to their former condition and order in which they were established before our times as well touching the points of christian faith as touching the state of the most sacred churches Martyrs chappels Al innouations in the time of this tyrannie against the holy churches their reuerend bishops concerning the right of their Episcopall creations the deposing of any Bishop during those times their prerogatiue to sit before others within Councell or without the priuileges of Metropolitanes and Patriarks al such innouations we say repealed Let the grants CONSTITVTIONS of the godly Princes before vs and likewise ours touching churches chappels of Martyrs Bishops Clerkes and Monkes be kept inuiolable Much more might be sayd but this shal suffice You bring vs one seely mistaken authoritie where Constantius commaunding against right and trueth in a Bishoppes cause was reproued wee bring you if you viewe the precedents well an hundred expresse places and aboue that auncient and religious princes commaunded Bishoppes and Councels in matters of doctrine and discipline and were not reproued but honoured and obeyed in the Church of God Now choose whether you will shew your selues so voyd of al religion reason that you will preferre a single and solitarie text and the same so many wayes answered by vs before the publike and perpetuall practise of the primatiue Church or else acknowledge with vs that Princes for trueth did might commaund Bishoppes and preuent and punish in them as well errors in fayth as other ecclesiasticall crimes and disorders Phi. All this I may graunt and yet your supremacie will not followe Theo. Neuer tell vs what you may doe but what you will doe Deny the premisses if you dare or the consequent if you can Phi. I graunt Princes may commaunde Bishoppes but not what they list which is your opinion Theo. If you may bee the reporter of our doctrines wee shall defende many mad positions leaue your malitious and odious slaunders wee maintaine no such opinion Phi. What doe you then Theo. If you did not range thus besides all order and trueth you should perceiue what wee doe but when wee come to conclude you slide from the matter and fall to your wonted outfacing and wrangling Phi. Doe I not answere directly to that which you aske Theo. For a while you doe but when we come to touch the quicke you start aside and busie the reader with other quarrels Forbeare that till wee come to the sifting of your absurdities and then take your fill In the meane time suffer vs to say what we defend and to know what you assent vnto that the difference betwixt our opinions may be rightly conceiued and the proofes of either part duely considered Phi. With a good will Theo. Doe you then 〈◊〉 for a matter fully proued that auncient kings and Christian Emperours 〈◊〉 â—â—â—maund for trueth as well Priest as people and that they chiefly did and iuâ—â—ly might enterpose their royall power and care for the reformation and correction of errours in fayth abuses in discipline disorders in life and all other ecclesiasticall enormities as appeareth plainely by the publike lawes and acts of Constantine Theodosius Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and other no lesse Godly than worthie Gouernours If the places which I haue brought import not so much refell the particulars I will be of your mind if they doe why stande you so doubtfull as lothe to confesse and yet not able to gainesay the proofes Phi. For trueth I knowe Princes haue commaunded as well Bishops as others and vy their Princely power established and preserued the faith and Canons of Christes Church Theo. And this the sacred Scriptures the learned fathers the stories ecclesiasticall the lawes and monuments of Catholike Princes in the primatiue church of Christ for eight hundred and fiftie yeres doe fairely warrant Phi. They do Theo. And the places that proue this are both innumerable and inexpugnable Phi. The proofes for this point bee pregnant euough Theo. And this is no way repugnant to probabilitie possibilitie reason or nature Phi. It is not Theo. You will not eate these words when you come to the purpose Phi. I will not Theo. And if you were to bee sworne on a booke doe you beleeue in your conscience this which you say to bee true Phi. I doe Theo. Then here I will stay Phi. Haue I not answered directly to your questions Theo. You haue and wee vrge you no farther Phi. What are you the nearer Theo. That shall you now see You make shamefull outcries at the power which we giue to Princes to be supreme Gouernours of their Realmes in al thinges and causes as wel ecclesiastical as temporal as A thing improbable vnreasonable vnnaturall
all Princes one that shall commaund them and depose them at his pleasure what else is this but a resisting of the powers which God hath ordained â—recting and 〈◊〉 in the Church of Christ without authoritie that vnder the couert of binding and feeding shall make him-selfe Lorde of all kingdomes and countries Phi. Supreme is the worde that wee most impugne Theo. And Supreme is the worde which you shall neuer ouerthrow being a plaine and manifest deduction out of the wordes of S. Paul Let euerie soule saith hee bee subiect to the superiour Powers If all men must be subiect to them ergo they be superiour to all and superiour to all is supreme Consult both your Seminaries and refell this one sequele if you can marie cauill not as your Apologie doeth that Supreme bringeth Christ and his Sainctes in subiection to Princes The Apostle speaketh of mortall men and so doe wee And in comparison with them if Sainct Pauls words be true that euery soule must be subiect to Princes as vnto Superiours our consequent is irrefutable that Princes be supreme Phi. S. Paul maketh them superiours ouer all persons but not ouer all thinges Theo. That distinction is ours not yours we did euer interprete supreme for superiour to all men within their dominions Phi. And so wee graunt them to bee but not in all thinges For in temporall thinges they be superiours to all men in spirituall they bee not Theo. That restraint commeth too late The holy Ghost charging you to be subiect to them simply without addition it passeth your reach to limit in what thinges you will and in what thinges you will not be subiect Againe wee haue inuinciblie proued and you haue clearely confessed that Princes may commaunde for trueth and that they beare the sworde for the perfect obseruation and execution of Gods lawe and publike defence of the faith and Cannons of the Church which bee thinges not temporall but spirituall and out of all question where they may by Gods law command all men must obey them not onely for feare of wrath but also for conscience sake Lastly what better proofe can you wish that in all thinges they bee superiours to all men than that their sworde may not bee resisted for any temporall or spirituall cause but must bee rather indured with meekenes reuerence though they persecute truth shew themselues enemies to God and his church For so the Lord in his owne person taught vs his Apostles after him in their writings sufferings followed the same course Phi. Had Heathen tyrantes lawfull power ouer Christ and his Apostles in spirituall thinges Theo. Lawfull power of the sworde to rewarde and punish they had ouer Christ and his Apostles in thinges and causes spiritual The Lord of grace and life being deliuered by the Priests to the Magistrate for blasphemie which is a spirituall crime refused not the iudge but submitting him-selfe to the Princes Deputie confessed Pilates power ouer him to bee from heauen notwithstanding Pilates sentence against him was wrongfull and wicked S. Paul imprisoned for preaching the Gospel required to be sent to Caesar and to make answere before Caesar concerning his doctrine and doings S. Peter patiently endured Neroes sword euen vnto death for teaching the trueth and warned all Christians to doe the like Let none of you suffer publike punishment as a murderer or as a theefe or a malefactour or as a medler with other mens matters but if any man suffer as a Christian that is for religion let him not be ashamed but glorifie God in this respect They that resist especially wheÌ„ they be punished for religioÌ„ shal receiue to themselues iudgement and damnation for God is then most dishonoured when wee make religion a buckler for rebellion If none must resist that suffer as christians ergo by Gods ordinance al men be subiect to the Princes sword euen in spirituall causes as well as in temporall Phi. To suffer but not to obey Theo. Suffering is as sure a signe of subiection as obeying And yet whom you must indure commaunding that which is euill in matters of religion those you must obey when they commaunde that which is good in the selfe same causes which you heard concluded out of S. Augustine before Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Emperors which are made for the truth of God incurreth a grieuous iudgement And againe When Emperours hold truth they commaund for truth which whosoeuer despiseth purchaseth to himselfe iudgement So that all men are bound to be subiect to the sword in all thinges be they temporall or spirituall not only by suffering but also by obeying mary with this caution that in thinges which bee good and agreeable to the law of God the sword must be obeyed in things that be otherwise it must be indured This then is the supreme power of Princes which we soberly teach and you so bitterly detest that they be Gods ministers in their owne dominions bearing the sword freely to permit and publikely to defend that which God commaundeth in faith and good manners and in ecclesiasticall discipline to receiue and establish such rules and orders as the Scriptures and Canons shal decide to be needfull and healthfull for the Church of God in their kingdomes And as they may lawfully commaund that which is good in all thinges and causes bee they temporall spirituall or ecclesiasticall so may they with iust force remoue whatsoeuer is erronious vitious or superstitious within their Landes and with externall losses and corporall paines represse the brochers and abetters of heresies and all impieties from which subiection vnto Princes no man within their Realmes Monke Priest Preacher nor Prelate is exempted and without their Realmes no mortall man hath any power from Christ iudicially to depose them much lesse to inuade them in open field least of al to warraÌ„t their subiectes to rebell against them These be the things which we contend for not whether Princes be Christs masters or the functions to preach baptise impose hands forgiue sinnes must be deriued from the Princes power and lawes or the Apostles might enter to conuert countries without Caesars delagations those bee iestes and shiftes of yours no braunches nor sequeles of our opinion You see the partes proofes of our doctrine neither draw back nor dally but go to the matter and say what fault you finde with our assertion Phi. The former branches of your assertion might be receiued if it were agreed by whom the sword should be directed We our selues confesse that the Princes sworde should permit defend and execute that which is good in all spirituall and ecclesiasticall thinges causes and iudgementes and repell and punish the contrarie But least Princes shoulde wade too farre or tread awry we would haue their swords guided and if need be restrained by such as haue greater experience and better intelligence in those affaires For ecclesiasticall rules and
flesh in so much that the flesh is heere called the soule Such a man when the church casteth from her shee keepeth the spirit safe to wit the holie spirite of God which is the guider of the church For if they suffer any such one to bee amongest them hee defileth all and the holie spirite departeth Phi. S. Hierom taketh it otherwise To deliuer him vnto Satan for the destruction of the flesh saith he vt arripiendi illum corporaliter habeat potestatem that the diuell may haue power corporally to possesse him so Saint Chrysostom For the destruction of the flesh that the diuell may strike him with some grieuous sore or other disease Theo. This I told you before was a doubtfull speech and therefore woulde yeelde you no certaine conclusion For besides Sainct Augustine and Sainct Ambrose Sainct Hierom in those bookes which are assuredly his vseth these wordes To deliuer vnto Satan to the destruction of the fleshe for a perpetuall consequent to excommunication in all ages and not for corporall vexation permitted onely to the Apostles Illi si peccauero licet tradere me Satanae in interitum carnis vt spiritus saluus sit A clergie man sayth hee may deliuer mee to Satan if I sinne for the destruction of the fleshe that the spirite may bee safe And inueighing against Vigilantius I maruaile sayth hee the Bishop vnder whome hee is doeth not crush this vnprofitable vessell with the Apostolike rodde euen a rodde of yron and deliuer him into the destruction of the fleshe that the spirite may bee safe Noting by these wordes the right force of excommunication which doeth and shall indure to the ende not any corporall punishment or plague wherewith God sometimes touched such as would not otherwise be reformed A thirde interpretation of these wordes you shall finde in Sainct Augustine writing against Parmenian What did the Apostle sayth hee but prouide for the health of the soule by the destruction of the fleshe whether it were by some corporall punishment or death as in Ananias and his wife which fell down at Peters feete or else that the partie by repentance because he was giuen ouer vnto Satan should kil in himself the wicked concupiscence of the fleshe This later exposition cutteth off cleane your bodilie punishmentes and sheweth the ende of Apostolike excommunication to be this that the offendour by repentaunce should destroy the lustes of his flesh and not that an euill spirit should corporally correct and molest him which you conclude out of these wordes with as great confidence as if it were some maine principle of faith Phi. S. Augustine repeateth both expositions disliketh neither Theo. His accepting of both dischargeth your illation which is wholy grounded on the first But admit that also which Chrysostom seemeth to follow what shall your conclusion be Phi. That the Apostles punished the bodies of such as were christians Theo. Did they lay violent handes on them or vse any externall meanes Phi. They needed not the diuell did it at their word Theo. And because the diuell will not doe the like for you you will supplie the diuels roome and intermedle with his office Are you not wise Diuines that to chalenge the correction of other mens bodies make your selues the Diuels substitutes Phi. Wee make our selues the Apostles substitutes Theo. Then deliuer them to the Diuell as they did and offer them no farther violence nor torment with your owne handes and see what power you haue to chastise the bodies of such as you reiect from the church for so did the Apostles Mary if you content not your selues with speaking the word as they did but because the Diuell fayleth you you take helpe of your handes to punish the bodies of men beware least you be now not Pauls associats in deliuering but Satans in tormenting the carkasses of offendors Phi. Is euerie one that punisheth the bodie Satans associate Theo. They that beare the sworde with lawfull power from God to represse the wicked if cause require to kill the bodie they bee Gods ministers seruing for that intent but they that without this sworde claime to bee the correctors and punishers of mens bodies by violent meanes are the Diuels vicegerentes and not Gods For they bee murderers and the right members of Satan Phi. But wee appoint the Magistrate to doe it Theo. Doe you appoint Magistrates to lay violent handes on themselues Phi. No but on others Theo. And we be disputing of Princes whether they may bee defeated of their crowns and chastised in their bodies vpon your excommunications Phi. Excommunicate persons may bee corporally chastised whosoeuer bee the deede doer and that S. Chrysostoms exposition fully proueth For if it were lawfull then whiles the Apostles did excommunicate why not as well after and in other ages Theo. But if you relent from this that your selues may bee the deed doers then you misse the marke which you shot at The Magistrate wee knowe may corporally punish these and all other offendours but what is that to your position which hold that spirituall Pastors may punish the bodies of the faithful And therfore look to your footing least you faile in your leaping and backe with this legge that a meere spirituall officer may touch the liues and take the goods of heretiks and other excommunicate persons It is a wicked intrusion of Antichrist seeking indirectly and as you call it by accident that is by hooke or by crooke to bring the world and worldly things in subiection to his appetite The Apostles did nothing but separate sinners from the church and house of God because in those dayes there were no christian Princes with ordinarie power to reuenge the disorders committed in and against the church of Christ it pleased God that whom the Apostles and their after-commers for a season cast out of the church as intangled with great and haynous offences the Diuell shoulde afflict them vnto death or otherwise with some grieuous disease as the fault deserued that the rest might feare and not bee bolde to sinne because there was no magistrate to punish them yea many times God visited the sinnes of hypocrites and such as remained in the church in like maner as Paul himselfe testifieth to those of Corinth For this cause many amongest you are stroken with infirmities and diseases and many are dead For if we would iudge our selues we should not bee iudged but when wee are iudged we are chastened of the Lord that wee should not bee condemned with the world And Chrysostom alleadging this place Many such things fall out in the church at this day Because the priest knoweth them not that loden with sinne receiue the reuerend mysteries vnworthily therefore God himselfe often times culleth them out and deliuereth them to Satan And that the Apostles did nothing but cast them out of the church when they deliuered anie to Satan the same Father will teach
knowledge and gift not only permitted but also desired to exhort the people and giue thanks to God in other mens charges Philand This might be but how proue you this was the fault which the Apostle reproued Theo. I need not proue that If this which I speake might easilie come to passe then your inuincible arguments be sensible follies corelude vtterly no such thing as you imagine Your argumeÌ„t cannot be impregnable til your consequent be ineuitable since so many cases may be put though your antecedent be admitted to repel your consequeÌ„t what wisedome was it to make such vaunt of your forces not onely before the victory but when you see your selues so voide of al good artillerie Phi. Againe the publike seruice had but one language in this exercise they speak with many tongues Theo. Againe you can neither verifie your antecedent nor iustifie your consequent Set order of publike seruice they had none in the Apostles time the Pastors and ministers praied by heart as the spirite of God guided them This gift of praier some turned to their owne prayse and ostentation when they were admitted to giue thanks to God in the congregation of the faithfull and made their prayers in such tongues as they preferred or would seeme endewed with though the people vnderstood them not for which attempt the Apostle controlleth them Phi. These are your conceiuements Theo. Were they no mans but mine your reasons are weake and euen contemptible which you proclaimed for inuincible but as you heard S. Ambrose did informe you that these men whom S. Paul here toucheth vsed sometimes the Syrian and most times the Hebrew tongue in tractatibus aut oblationibus in their discourses to the people or ministration of the Sacrament as they pleased Phi. In the publike seruice euery man had not his owne speciall tongue his speciall interpretation special reuelation proper Psalmes but in this they had Theophil In the publike seruice of the church the ministers and Elders which were many both trauelers and there dwellers had euery man his Psalme his instruction his tongue reuelation or interpretation as the spirite of grace thought it most expedient for the setting foorth of Gods glory and the edifieng of their faithes that were present and other order of diuine seruice in the Apostolike and primatiue church wee reade for certaintie of none besides the action of the Lordes supper which the Apostles and so no doubt their churches alwaies vsed in the end of their publik meetings but with not set prayers saue onely the Lordes prayer as Gregorie confesseth the rest of their prayers blessinges and thanksgiuinges were in euery place made by the gift of the holy Ghost inspiring such as were set to teach and gouerne the church And though you haue long since their time framed a Liturgie in Iames name wheron you seeme to ground all the cauils that here are vrged as inuincible arguments yet for so much as the church of Christ did not acknowledge it and the words of Gregory directly impugne it we return that home to the forge whence it came your arguments back to you as wanting both truth strength to beare out your cause Phi. The publike seruice had in it the administration of the holy Sacrament principally which was not done in the time of this conference Theo. Though the Lordes supper was not ministred at that instant when the Pastors people were intending for doctrine yet did it follow immediatly vpon this exercise finished and due thankes offered to God by the whole church for the redemption of the world in the blood of his sonne neither besides your bold and bare negatiue do we see any cause why the singing blessing and thanksgiuing which S. Paul speaketh of should not be vnderstood to be the prayers and Psalmes that were vsed before after and at the Lordes table this I am sure S. Paul willeth all thinges to be done to edification and all must containe the church seruice ministration of the Sacrament as wel as Psalms or any other exercises of the church So that if the special discourse did not touch the ministration of the Lords supper the general direction doeth comprise it so much the more because the whole church as wel the people as the Preachers as well women as men haue equall interest in the Lords supper to be thereat fed and thereby stirred to giue thanks to God for the richesse of his mercie in the death of Christ. And if you thinke that vnderstanding and consenting is more needful for the people in any other prayers than in those that are made at the Lordes Table you erre not of ignorance but of wilfulnesse and care not what you say so you may entertaine the simple with somewhat for the sauing of your credite Phi Into this exercise were admitted the Catechâ—mens and Infidels and whosoeuer would in this weomen before S. Pauls order did speake and prophesie so did they neuer in the ministration of the Sacrament With manie other plaine differences that by no meanes the Apostles wordes can be rightly and truely applied to the Corinthians Seruice then or ours nowe Theo. You should close vppe the matter with the strongest argument you haue and this is the weakest At their prophesies that was at their sermons and exhortations Infidels and nouices not yet baptized might bee at their mysteries they might not be but were sent away and the doores shut when the faithfull approached to the Lordes Table Hence you may conclude that euery hearer of the woorde may not bee partaker of the diuine mysteries but that the one did not presently followe the other in the Seruice of the Church or that S. Paul did not meane them both you shall neuer conclude yea rather the sending them away that might not bee present argueth that the rest which were left did foorthwith addresse them-selues to the participation of the Lordes Table and that all which was doone in the Church before both exhorting and praying was referred to this end to make them meete commers to that heauenlie banquet Phi. That may bee but S. Paul speaketh of the one and not of the other Theo. That you should prooue if you coulde tell howe Phi. We haue alreadie prooued it by inuincible argumentes Theo. Marie that you haue if blinde surmises and loose sequeles may stand for argumentes otherwise what haue you saide that hath any shewe of proofe I will not saie of inuincible proofe Your maine foundation is a dreame of your owne that the Church of Corinth had a prescribed number and order of prayers pronounced by some one Chaplin that sayde his lesson within booke and might not goe one line besides his Missale for any good This you imagine was their Church Seruice all other prayers Psalmes blessings and thankes-giuings though they were vsed openly in the congregation and the whole people bound to say Amen you will not haue to
with a strait and generall charge for the cup drinke yee all of this and Paul receiuing his instructions from Christ his master proposed the same to the Lay men of Corinth no lesse than to the ministers excepting none Iewes nor Gentiles bond nor free from this precept how dare you Philander and your late Conuents restraine the people from drinking of it The Lordes cup is the new couenant which he hath made with all beleeuers do none beleeue but Priests For the remission of sinnes are laie men no sinners as a memoriall of his death maie the people loose that remembrance It is saith Paul THE COMMVNION OF HIS BLOOD and the partaking of his spirite haue the people no right to the blood of Christ that was shed for them or will you claime his spirite as peculiar to Priestes which is common to all the children of God Philand The Church I warraunt you did ponder and consider these reasons when shee tooke this order and finding them vnsufficient shee decreed with vs that the cuppe was not necessarie for the Laie people Theoph. What Church I praie you The primatiue and auncient Church of Christ where catholicisme should beginne Wee can assure you no. They ministred in both kindes to Priest and people men and women without exception DIONYSIVS The breade that was whole being broken into manie partes and ONE CVP DIVIDED AMONG ALL the Bishoppe in these twaine perfiteth the holie Sacrifice The sacred Communion of one and the same breade AND COMMON CVP bindeth Christians to diuine concorde and likenesse of manners as being nourced vp together IGNATIVS There is but one flesh of the Lord Iesu and one blood that was shed for vs there is also but one bread that is broken for all and ONE CVP THAT IS DIVIDED AMONG ALL. ATHANASIVS If those be his expositions which you haue set forth in his name The dreadfull cup was deliuered by the Lorde TO ALL MEN ALIKE CYPRIAN How doe we prepare the people for the cup of martyrdome if we doe not first admit them in the Church to DRINKE THE LORDES CVP BY RIGHT OF COMMVNION AVGVSTINE Not onelie no man is forbidden but rather ALL MEN that seeke for life ARE ENCOVRAGED TO DRINKE And againe speaking to the people simul bibimus quia simul viuimus WE DRINKE TOGETHER at the Lordes table because we liue together CHRYSOSTOME as before One bodie is proposed to al and one cup. GREGORIE The blood of Christ is now not powred into the hands of vnbeleeuers but into the mouthes of the faithfull THEOPHILACT How happeneth thou drinkest alone whereas this dreadfull cup was deliuered to all men indifferentlie HAYMO The cup is called a communion by Paul because all men are partakers of it PASCHASIVS Christ gaue the cup and said Drinke ye all of this as well the Ministers as the rest of the beleeuers Infinite are the places which might be brought to make faith that for a thousand yeares in the Church of God the people were not depriued of the Lordes cup. The master of your sentences who liued verie neare twelue hundred after Christ knewe not this maiming and paring of Christes institution which now raigneth in your churches Therefore is the Sacrament saith he celebrated in two kinds that in Christ the taking of soul and flesh and in vs the redeeming of them both might be signified For the flesh of Christ is offered for our flesh and his soul for our soules It is taken vnder both kindes which profiteth both partes If it shoulde be receiued in one kinde onely that would declare that it auayled for the safegard of one part onely soule or body not for both ioyntly The gloze that followed an hundred yeeres after resteth him-selfe on the same reason with the same wordes and shrinketh not from the communion in both kinds but in the danger of sicknes or point of necessitie Insirmus vel sanus in necessitate potest sumere corpus sine vino a sicke man whome the drinking of wyne might hurt or an whole man in case of necessitie where hee can not choose may receiue the body without the wyne Then in the Church where prouision might soone bee made for all and no necessitie coulde bee pretended it was not as yet counted lawefull for the people to receiue the Sacrament in one kinde Philand But if the Church after vppon good deliberation sawe sufficient cause to chaunge that order who made you controllers of Christes spouse Theoph. That vnshamefast harlot which foureteene hundred yeeres after Christes ascention woulde both alter her husbandes will and defraude his children of that portion which their Lorde and Sauiour had allotted them did prostitute her selfe and bastardize her ofspring as much as lay in her and is no way woorthie to haue the honour of a mother or name of a spouse though shee paint her selfe neuer so freshly with youthfull colours And the reasons which mooued her so to doe were as ridiculous as the fact was impious Durandus sayth Non esset decens tantum sanguinem conficere nec calix capax inueniretur It woulde not bee decent to consecrate so much blood as must serue the people neither can there so bigge a chalice bee gotten Gerson beateth his braines to iustifie that which the councell of Constance did in taking the Lordes cup wholy from the people not yet nyne score yeeres agoe and when hee hath all doone hee commeth in with these toyes THE length of Laymens beardes the lothsomnes to drinke after others the costlynes of so much wyne the difficulties first of getting then of keeping wyne from sowring freezing and breeding of flies the burden in bearing and daunger in spilling it last of all the peoples vnwoorthynes to match Messere magnifico the Priest in the receite of this Sacrament Bee not these valiant inducements for you to chaunge the last Will and Testament of Christ Iesus and abrogate that which was orderly kept in the church for a thousande yeeres and vpward And yet these were the grauest and profoundest considerations that your friendes had to leade them to this attempt and these you knowe bee verie miserable Gerson I graunt shifteth what hee can to bring other proofes that both kindes are not simply needfull but why the councell of Constance tooke the cup cleane from the people which violence before was neuer offered them of this I say Gerson a chiefe agent in that councell labouring purposely to shewe the reason of their doings neither doeth nor could yeelde any better or weightier occasions than these which I nowe repeated and the reader shall find blazed with great confidence in the second part of the foresaid treatise O deintie fathers and sleeke diuines which for long beardes and vnsweete breathes for a litle paynes and no great charges for frostes in winter and flies in sommer thought best to correct Christes institution and not onely to forsake the
The faith of our fathers is not alwaies trueth 537 God forbiddeth vs to follow the steppes of our fathers 538 The godly confessed their fathers did erre 539 All humane lawes barres giue place to God 540 The prince might make lawes for trueth maugre the Pope 541 Princes haue setled religion without Councels 542 Christian religion receiued vpon the direction of a lay man 543 Trueth authorised the Apostles against Priests Princes 544 Railing on Princes is a capitall crime 545 The contents of the fourth part No point of Poperie Catholike 546. What is truely CATHOLIKE 547 The worshipping of Images is not Catholike 547 The west Church against the worshipping of Images 548 Corruption to help the credite of the second Nicen councell 549 The worshipping of Images detested in the Church of Christ as Heresie 550 The â—mage of God made with hands may not be worshipped 552 The Iewes Gentiles did erect their Images vnto God 553 The heathen adored their stocks as the Images of God 554 The Image of man set vp vnto God is an Idoll 556 The wodden Image of Christ may not be worshipped 557 The honour done to a wodden Image is not done to Christ. 559 Adoration of Images no Apostolick tradition 562 S. Basill forged to make for adoration of Images 563 The shamefull forgeries and falsities of the second Nicene councell 564 Both Scriptures and fathers wickedly abused by the second Nicene Councâ—l 565 The second Nicene Councel conuincing it selfe of forgerie 566 What an Idole is 567 A wrong seruice of God is Idolatrie 568 The Church of Rome giueth diuine honour vnto Images 569 Christs honour may not be giuen to Images 570 The hauing of Images is not Catholike 572 Athanasius palpablie forged in the second Nicene Councell 574 The Church next to the Apostles reiected Images 574 Images came first from Heathens vnto Christians 575 Images reiected by godly Bishops 576. No corporall submission may be giuen to Images 577 The Nicene Bishops play the sophists in decreeing adoration vnto Images 577 The wodden crosse of Christ may not be adored 578 Not one word in scripture for adoration of Images 580 No point of faith may be built on traditions 581 No point of faith beleeued without Scripture 582 Baptizing of Infants is a consequent of the Scriptures 583 It may be a tradition yet grounded on the Scriptures 584 Baptisme of InfaÌ„ts prooued needfull by the Scriptures 585 Rebaptization repugnant to the Scriptures by S. Augustines iudgement 588 The perpetuall virginitie of Marie the Mother of Christ. 589 The Godhead of the holy ghost expressed in the Scriptures 590 His proceeding from the father and the sonne confirmed by the Scriptures 592 Expresse scripture is the sense and not the syllables 593 Fathers wrested to speake against the scriptures 594 The Popish faith is their owne traditioÌ„ against the scriptures 597 Their adoration of images is a late and wicked inuenâ—ion of their schooles 598 Images adored in the Church of Rome with diuine honour 600 Images reiected by Catholike Bishops 601 S. Austen condemneth Images as vnprofitable signes 602 Custome without trueth is but the antiquitie of error 603 Praier in an vnknowen toung prohibited by Saint Paul in Gods name 604 S. Paul speaketh of vnknoweÌ„ touÌ„gs 606 An vnknowen toung cannot edifie 607 Diuine seruice in a knowen toung cannot choose but edifie 608 S. Paul speaketh of three learned toungs as wel as of others 610 S. Paul speaketh of the Hebrew Greeke and Latine as well as of other tongues 611 S. Pauls wordes comprise both Church seruice sermons 612 Saint Paul 1. Cor. 14. speaketh of Church seruice 613 The Church vnder the Apostles had no set order of diuine seruice 614 The Church vnder the Apostles did sing blesse and pray by the gyft of the spirite 615 The Apostle had no certaine praiers or seruice 616 The Iesuits halting reasons that S. Paul did not speak of the church Seruice 616 S. Paul to the Corinthians speaketh of Church seruice 620 No man may say AMEN to that he vnderstandeth not 624 Necessary to vnderstand our praiers 625 The primatiue Church had neuer her praiers and seruice in an vnknowen tongue 627 The latine seruice was vnderstood in the Countries where it was 629 Alleluia is vsed in all tongues aswell barbarous as others 630 The Britans had no latine seruice 632 Alleluia soung at the plough 632 The Iesuits manner of alleaging impertiment authorities 633 Bede doth not say that the people of this Realme had the latine seruice in his time 634 The prayers of the primatiue Church were common to all the people 636 The Masse book proueth that the people should vnderstand the Priest 639 The Priest needeth no speach in his praiers but to edifie the hearers 640 Praier is as acceptable to God in a barbarous as in a learned touÌ„g 642 Seruice in an vnknowen tongue is no custome of the vniuersall Church 643 The primatiue church had her seruice in such tongues as the people vnderstood 644 The primatiue church allowed praiers in barbarous tounges Whether side commeth nearest to christs institution 650 S. Paul by the Lords supper meaneth the sacrament 651 The name Masse whence it first came 655 We doe not swarue from christes institution 657 Christ did blesse with the mouth and not with the finger 658 Blessing in the scriptures applied to diuerse and sundrie thinges 659 To doe any thing vpon or ouer the bread is not needefull 660 The rehearsall of christs wordes maketh a sacrament 661 We shew our purpose at the Lords table by our words and deedes 662 The worde beleeued maketh the Sacrament 664 Vnlâ—uened bread is not of the substance of the Sacrament 664 Water is no part of Christs institution 663. 670 Water is not necessarie in the Lordes cup euen by the confession of their own schooles 668 No water mingled whiles the Apostles liued 672 The Masse an open profanation of Christs institution 673 Priuate Masse euerieth all that christ did or said at his last Supper 674 Christ did not sacrifice himselfe at his last supper 676 The Primatiue church had no priuate Masse 678 The Lords supper ought to be coÌ„mon 679 The Lords cup was deliuered to the people as well as the bread 679 Christs precept for the cup extendeth as well to the people as to the Priest 680 In the primatiue church the lords cup was common to all 682 The causes for which the church of Rome changed christs institution 683 The auncient church of Rome very vehement against half communions 684 Forbearing the Lords cuppe condemned in laymen as sacrilege 685 Sacrilege in the Priest can be no religion in the people 686 The Iesuits proofes for their sacrifice 687 How the fathers call the Lordes supper a sacrifice 688 Their own Masse booke contradicteth their sacrifice 690 The Lords death is the sacrfice of the Lords supper 691 A memoriall of christs passion is our daily sacrifice 692 The elder sort of Schoolemen knew not their
and eloquence hee seeketh to proue and perswade to the people of this Realme as the chiefest Bulwark of their Defence that were condemned he saith for religion we say for treason and in deed the very ground of all their actions I thought needefull to examine and to let the simple see on what a sandy slime they haue built as well their consciences as their Colleges and in how wretched and vnrighteous a quarell they haue hazarded their liues in this world and their soules in the next to inlarge the power and make vp the purse of their Rhemish founder Taking that therefore in hande I haue worde by worde refelled the fifth chapter of their Defence which purposely treateth of this matter and inserted so much of the fourth as tended to this ende the rest being a voluntarie pang of their vnbridled eloquencc as also I haue ripped vp the shamefull attemptes and tumults of Popes these last fiue hundred yeares for before that time Antichrist neither was nor durst be so bold presuming to displace depose their Lord Maister the Romane Emperor incountering him other Princes with treasons poysons battayles bloodsheds periuries treacheries such as Christendom neuer before tasted of euer since rued Where I haue not only opened the facts noted the meeknes of their martial spirits but haue vnfoulded the causes quarels for which those Princes were thus pursued with such excommunications and depriuations from Rome shewing as I go the Italian stories in fauour of their countrieman and foreman the Pope to bee exceeding partiall The like order I would haue followed in their Apologie but that as I first protested I found nothing in it worthy to bee refuted vnlesse I should haue banded their idle and emptie termes backe againe to them with others of the same making and so brought the cause of Christ and trueth of Religion to a warfare of woordes which I neither ought nor would If any man thinke me no indifferent iudge of their paines it may please him to cast his eye on the second sheete and hee shall find all the proofes and places of their Apologie aunswered in three leanes and of those fewe and weake quotations to haue made a conquest in open writing had beene incke and paper ill imployed I would therefore not take that course which seemed to me neither needeful nor profitable but to benefite the poore deceiued subiectes of this Realme and bring the Iesuites cause to the touch-stone in deede I haue chosen the principall intentes of their Apologie on which their whole foundation standeth and after mine owne course debated them more exactly and largely than the confutation of their Apology would haue suffered me For where they pretend they departed for lacke of the Catholike Sacrifice Sacramentes and Seruice which want in this Realme and because they were forced by oth to confesse an vnnaturall and impossible power in the Prince to be supreme Gouernour of all persons and causes as well ecclesiasticall as temporall and in their absence they resort for reliefe to none but to him that is the head of their catholike communion the chiefe Pastour and Bishoppe of their soules in earth and the vicar generall of Christ to whose predecessors all the famous Fathers called for aide comfort and counsell in their like distresses and traine vppe such as come vnto them in obedience to the churches Lawes Apostolike Traditions both written and vnwritten and to the precepts of Ancients Superiours who haue the promised spirit of trueth and are sent backe againe into this Land to execute spirituall offices and to absolue in foro conscientiae the penitent people from their sinnes of what sort soeuer schisme and heresie not excepted who seeth not that these assertions being the seueral braÌ„ches of their Apologie depend either on religion that is in strife betwixt vs or on the Princes power which they impugne or on the Popes claime to bee head of the church which we deny And therefore the proofe or disproofe of their particular actions must be fet and deriued from those chiefe and capitall springs The consideration whereof first induced mee to neglect the rouing discourses and vaunting florishes of their Apologie no lesse voide of trueth than of proofe and to betake my selfe to a stricter and directer kinde of examining the most materiall pointes on which the rest did hang as first their running to Rome siding themselues with the Pope as Christs Vicar generall against their Prince for which they haue no president in the primatiue Church The next is the princes power to commaund for trueth and right to beare the sword within her owne Realme ouer all persons for thinges and causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall without any subiection or relation to the Popes tribunall which I prooue is agreeable to the Lawes of God and practise of Christes church and therefore the oth importing the same to be good and godlie Thirdly the Popes censuring and depriuing princes of their crownes I shew to be nothing else but a wicked vnchristian pride contumelie not long since deuised by Antichrist to frustrate the word and ordinance of almighty God and to make himselfe great and so of force the subiects which be partakers with him in that hainous conspiracie by perswading assisting executing or defending the same in worde or deede against their princes to bee traytours and not martyrs if they die for that quarell Lastly the publique reformation of diuine Sacramentes and Seruice made by her Maiestie I declare to be Christian and Catholike and the partes of poperie repealed and abolished by the lawes of this Realme to be repugnant I speak for the substance of theÌ„ and not for certain indifferent ceremonies in them to the sacred scriptures and ancient fathers Other incident and adiacent matters I haue handled and those not a fewe as the generall and speciall contentes before and after will better insinuate but these foure bee the pointes that beare the burden both of their first Apologie for their Seminaries and last Defence of English Catholikes By these shal we soone discerne the truth or falshood of their pretences clamors against the Princes Lawes and such as are authorized by her highnesse therefore from the sober sad discussing hereof if they get them as they haue done to outragious and tragicall exclamations we must leaue them as men wilfully diuerting from the right way crying as loude as they can for life to drowne the voices of such as woulde recall them If they looke that all the parts of their Defence should haue bin answered in like sort as the fifth chapter is that labour I say for a man of my calling wold haue bin as fruitles as it is needles the proofs that are not here discussed may â—afely be despised the rest of their rolling rhetorik a diuine neither need regard nor should repeate As much as is inforcing to their purpose is here
for the studie of diuinitie is as deepely layed as theirs our diligence rather more than theirs our time both of age and studie more complete than theirs cōmonly can bee our order methode course of diuinitie much more profitable than theirs we haue moe disputations lessons conferences examinations repetitions instructions catechizings resolutions of cases both of conscience and controuersie methodes and manners to proceede to the conuersion of the deceiued and such like exercises in our two Colleges thā are in their two Vniuersities cōtayning neere hand 30. goodly Colleges As for the Masters professors of our Colleges specially the Romane readers we may be bold to say They be in all kind the most choyse and cunning men of Christendom for vertue learning c. Nowe for that part of education which pertayneth to Christian life manners our chiefe endeuour is in both the Colleges to breede in our scholers deuotion c. Which is done by diuers spirituall exercises as dayly examinations of their consciences often communicating or receiuing the. B. Sacrament much praying continuall hearing and meditation of holy things Phi. Can you in all this charge him with a lye Theo. Whether it bee true or false that he saith we neither care nor come to discusse The comparison of wits ages and exercises would rather beseeme boyes in the schoole than diuines in the Church this vaunting of vertue learning oftē communicating much praying continuall meditation of holy thinges is fitte for Pharisees vnfit for Christians Better is sayth Austen an humble confession in doing euill than a proud vaunt in doing well Phi. To speake truth is no vaunt Theo. To speake trueth in the commendation of your selues is the greatest pride you can shewe Let an other man prayse thee sayth Salomon and not thine owne mouth But this is the iust reward of your error that you take notable paynes to please your selues with an inward perswasion of your owne worthines to be reuerenced of others for the deepenes of your learning holines of your liues which desire of glorie so possesseth your heads that when other heraults fayle you you sticke not openly to the whole world to blaze your owne vertues Phi. We neuer spake but forced that in the necessarie defence of our selues Theo. Who forced Campion to write backe to Rome not only what admiration but what veneration a worde fitter for Saints than friers himselfe and his bande of Iesuites had gotten in England by their singular learning and holines The Priests saith hee of our societie they excelling in knowledge and sanctitie haue raysed so great an opinion of our order that the veneratiō which the Catholiques yeeld vs I thinke not good to be spokē but fearefully The framer of your Apologie what occasion had hee to braue both Uniuersities in such sort as he doth as well with the scholasticall as spiritual exercises of your two Colleges but only that he would haue the Iesuites waxe famous for the greatnes of their skill and purenes of their liues that the chiefest praise might redound to him selfe and others the Masters and Gouernours of those two Colleges Phi. We were charged in open proclamation that we liued contrary to the lawes of God and the Realme Theo. And doth your dayly disputing or much praying discharge you from that Phi. It sheweth our domesticall conuersation to be honest and orderly Theo. That is nothing to this purpose The Princes Edict did not meane your priuate disputatiōs or deuotions of which you cracke but obiected vnto you that you trayned vp your scholers in false and erroneous doctrine and vsed them to lewde and vngodly purposes as to withdrawe the people from their obedience to God and the Magistrate Phi. Let your Edict meane what it will our Apologie cleareth vs from all that was vntruely surmised against vs and I am right glad you haue seene the booke for there shall you find vs sufficiently proued to be both good subiects and good Catholiques notwithstanding your often and earnest inuectiues to the contrary Theo. If facing and cracking will doe the deede the conquest is yours Your defender hath fraighted his booke with so many solemne protestations patheticall exclamations and confident asseuerations but to the wiser sort that are led with euident trueth not with eloquent speach vnlesse you make some better demonstration of your integritie to God and your Prince than I yet see you bee like to goe neither for good subiects nor for good Catholiques Phi. Can you wish for a better than our Apologie Theo. I neuer mette with a worse Phi. What doth it lacke Theo. Not wordes they be copious curious enough but I neuer sawe fewer or weaker proofes Phi. What one poynt is there left vnproued Theo. Nay what one thing haue you iustly proued Phi. Come to the parts The first chapter giueth the reasons of our leauing this lande and liuing beyonde the seas what say you to those bee they not euident be they not sufficient Theo. Repeate them your selfe lest I chaunce to misse them Phi. The vniuersall Lacke of the Soueraigne sacrifice and Sacraments Catholiquely ministred without which the soule of man dyeth as the body doeth without corporall foode this constraint to the contrary seruices whereby men perish euerlastingly this intollerable othe repugnant to God the Church her Maiesties honour and all mens consciences and the dayly dangers disgraces vexations feares imprisonments empouerishments despites which they must suffer and the raylings and blasphemies against Gods Sacraments Saints Ministers and all holies which they are forced to heare in our Countrie are the onely causes why so many of vs are departed out of our naturall Countrey and doe absent our selues so long from that place where we had our being birth and bringing vp These they be what fault find you with them Theo. The selfe same that I finde with the rest of your Apologie You say what you list and neuer offer to proue that you say your bare word is your best argument and other authoritie than your owne you produce not Phi. The matter is so manifest that it needeth no proofe Theo. That presumption is so foolish that it needeth no refuter Phi. If you doubt or deny them wee bee readie to proue them Theo. That must you first doe before wee refell them Yet lest you should glorie too much of your paynted sheath the replie to your first chapter may shortly bee this The sacrifice which Christ offered on the crosse for the sinnes of the worlde wee beleeue with all our heartes and reuerence with all our might accounting the same to bee perfect without wanting eternall without renewing and this is our Soueraigne sacrifice The Lordes table which himselfe ordeined to bee the memoriall of his death and passion wee keepe and continue in that maner and forme that hee first prescribed and this may bee called and is a sacrifice both in respect of the thankes there giuen to God
Suytzerland and other nations which haue displaced your impieties and receiued the Gospell made they this change by the Popes permission and assent of his Bishoppes or else by the Magistrates ayde and assistance The first of these twayne you dare not auouch for God knoweth it went much against your willes then must you confesse the seconde and so those learned Preachers and writers which either at first perswaded and incouraged or at this daie commend and allowe the Princes and Magistrates of those kingdomes and Countries for remouing Antichrist with all his trinckettes out of their dominions and embracing the truth of Christ by publicke authoritie yea for reforming their Churches and setting an order in causes Ecclesiasticall as farre foorth in euerie point as her Highnesse hath done in this Lande all these learned and worthie Diuines I saie consent with vs in this that the Magistrate may lawfullie settle matters of Religion maugre your Romish Idoll and punishe errour and iniquitie by the temporall sworde as well in Bishoppes and Priestes as in others which is the verie summe and effect of this oth that you by no meanes can awaie with Phi. The chiefe makers of it them-selues haue iudged it either damnable or verie daungerous Theo. This no doubt is a vehement accusation if it can bee proued if it bee rashlie surmised then is it as pestilent a slaunder Goe to what reason leadeth you to charge the Nobles of this Land in this sorte Phi. The Barons exempted them-selues from taking this oth by a speciall prouiso Theo. What if they did not exempt them-selues but her Maiestie for the confidence shee reposed in her Nobles and for a difference betweene them and the Commons woulde not haue their othes but accepted their honours as sufficient pledges of their fidelitie will you wrest her Graces good opinion of them to their vtter and open diffamation Or what if some Barons of this Realme skant fullie resolued in that point which then was no wonder made meanes to bee respited for a season till they might be farther instructed which coulde not bee graunted to particular persons by name without infamie to them-selues and iniurie to the rest and for that cause least anie shoulde bee pointed at or distrusted more than others this generall exemption were deuised as most indifferent who but a wrangling Iesuite would inferre that the chiefe doers in heart condemned their own law You demaund how my supposals can be proued That needeth not your â—ile and infamous report is sufficiently confuted if I bring other better occasions that were but possible For where many good reasons of this exemption may bee produced why do you spitefully presume the worst and that vpon a blinde suspition without anie proofe Why doe you rashly coniecture their secret thoughtes which you by no meanes could know why boldly pronounce you that of Christian and godlie States which no sober man will suspect in Turkes and Infidels to wit that they met in Parliament to make wicked and bloodie lawes against their owne consciences And what if I coulde not resolue you whence this exemption first sprang such matters of counsell pertayning little to your vocation and myne yet due respect to their places which we shoulde not despise good triall of their wisedomes which we can not deny common charitie to their persons which wee may not purposelie diffame withhold me Philander and should haue restrained you from this lewd and insolent reproching the consciences of so many noble men worthie Counsellors except you could shew some iust and ineuitable proofe which you can not hauing for your vnhonest surmise no surer ground than this that the Statute doth not compel Barons or any temporal person aboue that degree to take this oth but exempteth them from the penalties of this Act prouided for others of meaner calling and lesse credit with hir Maiestie Phi. To exact this oth of most Officers in the Commonwealth and of euerie one that is preferred in the Vniuersities is nothing else but wittingly to driue men to pitiful torment of minde remorse and vtter desperation Theo. Why so good Sir Is this consequent that he which keepeth your men from degrees and offices driueth them to desperation Gape your friendes so mightilie for honor and lucre that rather than they will lacke earthly preferments they can not choose but veÌ„ter their soules No law forceth them to seeke for offices and dignities but only debarreth them froÌ„ such vntill they renounce that vsurped authoritie which your holie Father claimeth to commaund correct and depose Princes at his beck If any be tormented in minde for abiuring that vniust title which the Pope pretendeth blame not the Lawes of this Realme which you can not disproue blame the couetous and ambitious humor of those that for worldlie respectes would rush headlong against the perswasion of their heartes blame your odious and erronious whispering in their eares which hath troubled and altered their conceits that were caulmed and setled in quietnesse Such temporising hipocrites if any such be so vexed in minde as you tell vs which I scantly beleeue for ambition and gaine breed in them rather delight than remorse yet were they not thereto driuen by the Magistrate who proposed this law with condition and left them to the choise but their greedinesse first baited them next your secret buzzing in corners disordered their vnconstant affections and now perhaps foolish fantasie doth afflict them without reason of their partes or occasion of ours Phi. But to compell namely all such as you suspect to thinke it vntrue that is wilfullie to force men to desperation Theo. The time was when you and your fellowes cared little for driuing others to desperation The strange tormentes you deuised and practised on thowsandes to compell them from the confession of their faith without any regard of their consciences can witnesse the same mary now the sword is out of your handes you growe so tender and delicate that neither religion nor obedience may be forced on you for feare least you fall to desperation You can shift for your selues I perceiue what euer betide your neighbours but in sadnesse Philander where learned you this diuinitie that subiectes may not be compelled against their wils if they list to pretende conscience least they despayre Shall the peeuish opinion of such as bee frowarde and ignorant or to speake with fauour the priuate perswasion of such as be weake sâ—â—ppe Magistrates from yeelding that seruice which God requireth of them May Princes displease God to please men or breake the least of his preceptes to content neuer so great a multitude No doubt they may not For rulers in making their lawes must depend on the wil of God reuealed in his word not on other mens consciences Idolaters heretickes and schismatikes lacke not an inward and strong perswasion of their sects yet dare you not denie but Christian Princes ought to force their subiectes from idolatrie dissention and heresie
dignitie but not ouer the rest in power and authoritie His place was first when the Patriarkes met but his voyce not negatiue he might assemble his prouince and consult with them but not conclude without them himselfe was subiect both to the decrees of Councels and to the lawes of the Christian Emperours euen in causes ecclesiasticall and was oftentimes not only resisted by famous men but ouer-ruled as well by prouinciall as ecumenicall Councels when he attempted any thing against the Canons Which differeth much from the supremacie that he now chalengeth and vsurpeth And therefore you did wel to walke in a mist of ambiguous wordes to couer the lamenesse of your conclusion Phi. Why did Athanasius flee to the Bishoppe of Rome for helpe if Iulius had nought to do with his matter Theo. Athanasius being wrongfully thrust from his Bishopricke and an other forciblie set in his roome by certaine Arians assembled at Antioche vpon this pretence that he was deposed in the Councell of Tirus before he was banished and after his returne presumed of his own head without a Councell to reenter and keepe his place and finding the East Church not able to succour him for that Constantius the Emperour supported his enemies with a strong hand fled to the Bishop of the West where Constans a religious and curteous Prince brother to Constantius raigned and made his complaint as reason was he should first to the Bishop of Rome the cheefest man amongst them and the ringleader of the rest with whom he was ioined in consort and communion as the right and true Patriarke of Alexandria desiring no more but that his case might be heard and the desperate and furious proceedings of his aduersaries against him examined in a iust and lawfull Councell Which petition of Athanasius doth not proue the West Bishops to be controllers and ouerseers of such things as were done in the East much lesse the Bishop of Rome to be supreme Iudge ouer all but rather sheweth that the Church of Christ was guided by the common consent and mutuall agreement of both parts as well East as West indifferently balanced and that the West Bishops might call for a reason of the sentence giuen against Athanasius before they allowed the same or receiued his successour to the felowship of their communion Phi. The ecclesiasticall historie saith otherwise that Athanasius opened his cause to Iulius Bishop of Rome and that hee vpon the prerogatiue of the Romane See wrote threatning letters in his behalfe and restored him to his place reprouing them that rashly deposed him Theo. Socrates as an Historiographer noteth in fewe wordes the chiefe points and chiefe persons but if you will take the paines to reade the particular discourse of these thinges which Athanasius writeth in defence of himselfe you shal find that true which I say Phi. What shall we finde Theo. That the West Bishops were ioyned with Iulius in all this action and nothing done without their Sinodal decree Phi. How proue you that Theo. First the letters of credit which Athanasius brought with him to Rome from the Bishops of his communion in Egypt Thebais Lybia Pentapolis witnessing the manifold wrongs which he suffered and earnestly crauing a dew reformation of the same were written not to Iulius alone but Omnibus vbique ecclesiae catholicae Episcopis to all the Bishops of the Catholique Church wheresoeuer hauing these words in the cōclusion For this cause in a publike assemblie by the consent of vs all wrate wee these letters vnto you praying your wisedomes in Christ to receiue this testimonie touching Athanasius to admit him to your fellowship and communion and to bee moued with a zealous indignation against the Eusebians his enemies the authors of these disorders and that such lewdnes and mischiefe preuaile no longer against the Church vos certe vindices huius iniustitiae imploramus we call for your help to be the reuengers of their vnrighteous dealing Haec quidem Aegyptij ad omnes ad Episcopum Romanum Iulium scripsere this they of Egypt wrate to all and to Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that in sight the complaint was made generally to them all Phi. But Iulius alone cited the contrarie part to appeare before him by a day limited and that argueth his authoritie ouer them that were not of his Prouince Theo. Iulius by the consent of both parts and aduise of all the Bishops of Italie and other places neere him appointed the matter to be heard in a Councell and exhorted the aduersaries of Athanasius to bee present at the time and place prefixed Phi. What a mincing you make of this matter Iulius cited that is Iulius exhorted them to come Iulius heard the cause that is Iulius called a Councell to heare it Theo. What a mountaine you make of a mole hill I repeate the very wordes of Iulius and good reason in his owne fact to beleeue him best Phi. If he say so but I doubt you mistake the words Theo. Then may you take them righter but I am perfect I misse them not Heare first what Athanasius and then after what Iulius writeth Quin Eusebiani ad Iulium literas misere vt nos terrerent Synodum conuocari iusserunt ipsi Iulio si vellet arbitrium causae detulerunt The Eusebians also sent letters to Iulius and the rather to fray vs willed a Synode to be called and Iulius himselfe to be Iudge in the cause if he would Which Socrates doeth not omit Eusebius verò cum quod volebat perfecisset legationem ad Iulium Romanum Episcopum misit obsecrans vt ipse Iudex esset in causa Athanasij ad se litem hanc vocaret Eusebius when he had done all that he woulde sent messengers to Iulius Bishop of Rome praying him to be Iudge in the cause of Athanasius and to call for the hearing of this contention Phi. Athanasius aduersaries seeme to consent that Iulius alone shoulde sit Iudge in this cause Theo. That Iulius as chiefe but not that Iulius alone should examine this quarel For they required to be heard in a common Councell both of East and West Bishops Phi. As yet I see no such thing Theo. Say not so for Athanasius euen now told you that his enemies to fray him in their letter to Iulius willed a Councell to be held for this matter and Iulius in his epistle replying to those that were gathered at Antioch the second tyme writeth thus What is there done worthie of offence or what cause haue I giuen you to whom I wrate to be angrie An quia adhortati vos sumus vt ad Synodum occurreretis Is it for that we exhorted you to meet vs at a Synode The Bishops assēbled in the great Coūcel of Nice not without the wisedom of God gaue leaue that the acts of one Synode myght be discussed in an other to this end that both they which were Iudges knowing a secōd examination of the
a societie with the East Bishops for himself and the rest of his prouince as hauing no lesse interest in the Church than they had Phi. What say you then to the prerogatiue of the Romane See and to that ecclesiastical Canon which forbiddeth to meddle in the Church without the consent of the Romane Bishop Theo. The Bishop of Rome had this prerogatiue that first he should be written vnto by reason of his place which was first but not that he alone should be written vnto So saith Iulius Cur igitur in primis de Alexandria ciuitate nihil nobis scribere voluistis an ignari estis hanc esse consuetudinem vt primùm nobis scribatur vt hinc quod iustum est definiri posset Why then would you write nothing to vs especially touching the citie of Alexandria Are you ignorant of this custome that you shoulde write to vs first that hence that which is iust might bee determined Phi. No better text from Rome must bee determined what is right in the regiment of the Church Theo. A wise catch I promise you Did you not heare Iulius euen now speake the same wordes of euery Bishoppe Vt ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur that euery one might determine what was iust So that Iulius by this had no greater authoritie than the rest for right was to bee determined by them all Phi. The Canon of the Church made euery thing voyde that was done without the Bishop of Rome Theo. That which you call a Canon in deed was an order taken by the Bishops among thēselues for the better guiding of the Church by common consent when as yet there were no Christian Magistrates and the same was afterward liked and allowed of Godly Princes as the best way to keepe the Church in peace from quarrels and factions And this it was In waightie matters no prouinciall Councell might deale without consulting the rest of the Patriarkes who straightway conferring with the Bishoppes of their Prouinces wrate backe the generall opinion of themselues and their brethren This if any Councell did omit the Prouinces rounde about were at libertie to reiect their proceedings if they saw cause This Canon or kind of regiment obserued in the Church Iulius obiecteth against the councel of Antioch Oportuit secundum Canonem iudicium fieri Iudgement should haue proceeded according to the Canon that is Oportuit omnibus nobis scribere vt ab omnibus quod esset iustū decerneretur You should haue written to vs al that that which was iust might haue beene concluded by all And as by the Canon they should haue written to al so first to the Bishop of Rome by reason that his place was the first in order among the Patriarkes which is all the prerogatiue that Iulius in his Epistle claymeth for himselfe and his See This is that ecclesiasticall Canon and priuilege which Socrates and Sozomenus doe mention when they say the Councell of Antioch did against the Canons in that they called not the Bishop of Rome to their assemblie Phi. The deposition of a Bishoppe was no matter of such importance that a Prouinciall Synode might not attempt it without the rest Theo. Yes the deposing of a Patriarke was in it selfe a matter of great weight and required the consent of the rest as appeareth by that which the Councell of Antioch long before this did against Paulus Samosatenus where you shall finde the causes of his condemnation layde downe at large in their letters written to all Prouinces and namely to Dionysius and Maximus Bishops of Rome and Alexandria but yet the wrong offered Athanasius at this time touched the fayth Church of Christ nearer than one mans iniurie Phi. Why Theo. The Arians by their shifts and practises had almost gotten the most part of the East Churches and finding the two principall Archbishops of Constantinople and Alexandria greatly to hinder their enterprise for that their prouinces were very wide and many that stoutly defended the trueth were shielded by them they thought best to inuade them both at one time thrusting Paulus from his Bishopricke by plaine force and pretending a Canon of their owne making against Athanasius Which if the West Bishops had quietly suffered without enterposing them selues and assisting their brethren two parts of the worlde by their silence had beene drowned in Arianisme and themselues in great danger not long to remaine without the same infection This respect made them earnest for Athanasius as Sozomene noteth The Bishops throughout the East that fauoured the Nicene faith were deposed and the cheefest Seates inuaded by the Arrians as Alexandria in Egypt Antioche in Syria the Royal Citie of Constantinople in Hellespont This the Bishop of Rome the Priests of the west tooke to be their reproch and therefore very friendly entertayned Athanasius at his comming to them and tooke vpon them the defence of his cause Phi. This is not all that Iulius did for Athanasius Theo. What els can you shew that hee did Phi. Hee called a generall Councell to determine this matter and made Constantius the Emperour glad to receiue Athanasius to his former seate Theo. By mine aduise you should haue left out this it will come very short of your reckoning Phi. Not a whit Theo. Be not so peremptorie Phi. What was not this that I say done for Athanasius Theo. It was Phi. Who then besides Iulius could bring this to passe Theo. An other if you could light on him Phi. What was he Theo. Constans the West Emperour Phi. Who sayth so besides you Theo. The three writers of the Church storie which with one consent agree that the West Emperour called the Councel and threatened his brother if Athanasius and Paulus were not suffered to enioy their former places Iulius when the letters which he sent touching Paulus and Athanasius did nothing preuaile with the East Bishoppes opened their cause to Constans the Emperour Constans wrote to his brother that he should send some of the Bishops of the East to shewe him the reason why these men were deposed Three were chosen who comming to Italie went about to perswade the Emperour that the Synode of the East Bishops had done well and Constans perceiuing they had done vniustly sent thē backe whence they came And because Constans requiring this fauour at his brothers hands that Athanasius the rest with him might be restored could not obtaine so much and those that were with Paulus and Athanasius getting to his presence besought him that a Synode might be called it pleased the Emperour that the bishops of either side should meet at Sardica by a certaine day prefixed Phi. It might please him they should do so but how proue you the thither they came by his authoritie Theo. Athanasius going to Constans bewayled vnto him the violence that was offered the Apostolicke faith Putting the Prince in mind of his fathers acts that the
of her death Theo. Then suerly was Innocentius all that while a sleepe for the continuall entercourse betweene the two Cities both for temporall and ecclesiasticall affaires was so great the person so famous the time so long that no meane man in Rome could bee ignorant of her death Besides that Innocentius Legats were at Constantinople to intreate Arcadius for a Councell a litle before Chrysostome died and there vnlesse they wanted both eyes and eares they could not choose but learne that the Empresse was dead Phi. She was then liuing as Nicephorus saith Theo. The more he fableth the lesse credite he deserueth Eudoxia died before Arsacius and after his death was Atticus chosen then how could she bee liuing when Atticus was Bishop in whose time the Legats of Innocentius came to intreat for Chrysostome Phi. Let Nicephorus answere for himselfe I layde before you what I finde in him Theo. If this be all you can say for his defence giue vs leaue to tell you that this Bull bearing Innocentius name is some foolish and late forgerie deuised to perswade men that Popes in those dayes coulde quaile Emperours which God knoweth is nothing so Next for Chrysostomes cause as it helpeth you litle so doeth it hinder you much For first Chrysostome when himselfe and his Clergie were called to appeare before the Synode where Theophilus the Patriarke of Alexandria his mortall enemie was the chiefe man appealed from them not to the Bishoppe of Rome but to a generall Councell So sayth Socrates Iohannes eos a quibus vocabatur tanquam inimicos exceptione recusabat vniuersalem Synodum appellabat Chrysostome refused those that called him vppon this exception that they were his enemies and appealed to a generall Councell So sayth Chrysostome himselfe Though wee were absent and appealed to a Synode and sought for iudgement and refused not audience but manifest enimitie yet Theophilus receiued accusors against mee excommunicated such as helde with mee and tooke libels at all their hands which had not yet purged themselues of such crimes as were layde to their charge al which things are contrarie to the lawes and Canons Next when Innocentius saw the matter could not be ended but in a general Councel by reason the three Patriarks of Constantinople Antioche Alexandria were against him he sent Legats to Honorius and Arcadius to beseech them that a Synode might be had and the time and place appointed Wherin his supplication was so litle regarded that his Legats were sent away with reproch as disturbers of the west Empire and Chrysostome caried farther off in banishment than before Lastly when such as fauoured Chrysostome in the East parts would not cōmunicate with his enemies but ioyned themselues in communion with the Bishop of Rome who likewise seuered himselfe from those that were the beginners of this garboyle Arcadius made this Law If any Bishop refuse to communicate with Theophilus Atticus and Porphyrius hee shall loose both his Church and his goods If any that beare office they shall forfeite their dignitie If any Souldier hee shall lose his seruice If any of the common people let them bee fyned and exiled Phi. Will you nowe trust Nicephorus Theo. Sozomene in effect sayth the same For the communion of Arsacius Porphyrius and Theophilus at the suite of the Nobles there was a lawe made that no Christians should meete at prayers out of their Churches and those that woulde not communicate with these three Patriarkes should bee expelled So smally was Innocentius communion at that time respected that the followers of it were sharply punished Phi. You know what manner of men they were that did it Theo. Such as you may not easily despise Entending to write the wrong done to Chrysostome sayth Theodorete I am forced to shrinke at the doers thereof for their other vertues Atticus as Socrates confesseth was a very learned religious and wise man Porphyrius sayth Theodorete left many monuments of his benignitie being a man endewed with excellent wisedome Arcadius besides that Chrysostome calleth him after his banishment Christianissimum pientissimum Regem a most Christian and Godly prince a litle before his death wan estimation of holynes not without the admiration of a great multitude saued from destruction by his prayers Theophilus Epiphanius and others that held tooth and nayle against him were no babes in the Church of Christ. Cyrillus a famous father was after long time with much adoe drawen to yeeld thus much that Chrysostomes name should be rehearsed in the Catalogue of those that had bene Bishops Arsacius if Cyrillus may bee trusted was a blessed man and most worthie of commendation Phi. You goe about to deface Chrysostome by commending his enemies Theo. It is the least part of my thought and yet Socrates doth not altogether excuse him in saying hee was a man Iracundiae magis quà m reuerentiae indulgens more addicted to serue his passions than to reuerence any person And surely the wordes that he spake of the Empresse in his sermon openly before all the people Againe Herodias is madde againe she rageth againe shee daunceth againe she wil haue Iohns head in a dish were very bitter but my meaning is to shewe they were great and good men in the Church that about Chrysostoms quarrell were it right were it wrong neglected the communion of the Bishop of Rome Phi. Though they made light of it in this tumult and faction yet Augustine Hierom and others did highly esteeme it Theo. The communion and felowship of Christian loue and peace may not rashly be broken with any Church especially not with the chiefe and principall Churches vnlesse the cause be weightie and vrgent but looke whē the Bishop of Rome attempted any thing against the faith or the Canons tel me then what accompt they made of him Phi. That you must looke out I know no such thing Theo. So will I when my course commeth but yours as yet is not ended Phi. Myne shall not bee long Theo. As short as you will I thinke the best be spent Phi. Augustine and the fathers assembled in the Mileuitan Councell aske helpe of Innocentius for the condemnation of Pelagius and his heresie Theo. The Bishops of Africa themselues in this and an other Councell helde at Carthage condemned the error of Pelagius as repugnant to the Scriptures and iniurious to the grace of God And because it was a matter of faith that indifferently concerned all they thought it necessarie to aduertise the Bishop of Rome what they had done and to pray him also to condemne the same that as the infection was farre spred and found many defenders so the condemnation thereof might be generall and ratified by the publique liking of the Bishops in euery prouince What can you gather by this but that it was then the manner of the Church as in trueth it was by their letters sent too and fro both to aske and to giue
receaued to their fellowship they keeping still that honor and excellencie which they had in Christ before our comming Abraham is to this day the father of the faythful the Patriarkes Prophets are not depriued of their dignitie Peter no doubt as he was so he is the first Stone that Christ layed in the foundation of his Church which dignity you can not take from him after his death Phi. What then shall his successour haue Theo. The charge that he had to feede the same keyes that were giuen him and the rest to binde lose Which office if the Bishop of Rome will execute he may haue Phi. A fayre promotioÌ„ You meane he shal be a Bishop as others are Theo. God graunt he be so much More if he will haue by warrant from Peter you must proue it better than by such forged autorities manned exaÌ„ples as here you bring Those that are past your self see were to litle purpose Theodoretes example which is yet behind is like the rest Phi. He submitted him self to Leo the great was by him restored to his Bishoprike though he were not of his Prouince Theo. Leo toke his part against Dioscorus the Patriarke of Alexandria that like a tyrant in the second Councell of Ephesus not only was the death of Flauianus by spurning tredding on him but also coÌ„firmed the wicked opinion of Eutiches deposed Theodorete without any iust cause whoÌ„ the Bishop of Rome receaued to the coÌ„munion accepted for a lawfull and Catholike Bishop not regarding the sentence pronounced against him by Dioscorus Phi. Then Leo reuersed the lewd acts of Dioscorus in that Ephesine Councell Theo. Leo withstood theÌ„ as all other good men did throughout the world but the iudgement was reuersed by the great CouÌ„cel of Chalcedon not by the Bishop of Rome where Theodorete was forced with his own mouth in their presence to cleare him selfe from all suspition notwithstanding his restitution by Leo before he could be admitted to make his complaynt against Dioscorus Phi. Still you see the Bishop of Rome resisted other by dissenting from them ouerthrew their interprises Theo. And still you see the Bishop of Rome neuer ended these matters at home in his owne Câ—â—sistorie as supreme Iudge of the whole earth but euer made suite to Christiâ—n Princes that these thinges might be determined in full assemblies of Bisâ—ops by the iudgement opinion of the most part which is cleane contrarie tâ— that absolute power he now claymeth as Uicar generall to Christ the only Ruler of his vniuersall Church And therefore these examples which you haue brought many like which you might bring proue noâ— that power which you defend at this day to belong to the Bishop of Rome but rather euert the same For what needed his predecessors with all ouetie become suppliants to Catholike Emperours for the gathering of Bishops out of all quarters to decide matters in doubt and that sute often refused as when Innocentius messengers came backe from Arcadius with a shamefull repulse and Leo the great whom you last spake of besought Theodosius the yonger with sighes teares to graunt a Councell for the repealing of Dioscorus actes could not obtaine it what needed I say such earnest and humble request to those that neglected their prayers if Christ had appointed them as Peters successors and his deputies without depending on Princes pleasures or other mens voices to say but the word which should stand good in his Church against all persons in all causes both of doctrine discipline And what better conuiction of your falshood can there be than that in all these troubles tempests of the Church which you haue chosen out of many for your best aduantage the Bishop of Rome neuer so much as pretended or mentioned his Lieutenantship to Christ which you now defend but euer keeping his place which by reason of his Citie was the first among the Patriarkes ioyning him selfe to the West Bishops which were then a good part of Christendom by their helpe and the fauour of religious Princes gate those thinges that oppressed the Church and impugned the faith to be debated and determined by common coÌ„sent in generall and lawfull Councels without any reseruation or motion of his absolute power or negatiue voice Phi. Our examples you grant proue this that he resisted others now shewe you that others ouerruled him Theo. If I could not the matter were not great coÌ„sidering your examples conclude nothing against vs but least you should flatter your selues too much in your follies you shal see that others withstood him as well as he withstood others Phi. Were they Catholiks Theo. I trust you dare not account them heretikes Peter as you say the first Bishop of Rome was resisted by Paul the teacher of the Gentiles Anicetus by Policarpus Saint Iohns owne scholer Victor by Polycrates Ireneus and al the brethren of Asia Stephanus by Cyprian Damasus Syricius and Anastasius by Flauianus and all the Churches of the East of Asia Pontus Thracia and Illyricum Innocentius by Cyrill Sozimus and Bonifacius by Augustine and two hundred and sixteene Bishoppes of Africa Caelestinus by Theodorete Leo by the great Councell of Chalcedon Gregorie by the Britanes and many other Bishops of Rome by diuerse godly Princes Prelates Countries and Councels Phi. I like not these generall florishes which serue onely to obscure the truth and beguile the simple Theo. Howe then can you like your Apologie which consisteth of nothing else And what a slender kinde of proofe was that idle rehearsall of names which you made euen now for your running to Rome But our particulars I am well content you shall skan The first Paul himselfe affirmeth When Peter came to Antioch I withstood him to his face for hee was to be blamed Phi. The quarell betwixt them was not great Theo. Not walking the right way to the truth of the Gospell and compelling the Gentiles to liue like the Iewes was no such petite fault as you make it but graunt it were The smaller the fault the stronger our instance If Paul for a light matter resisted Peter to his face what woulde hee haue done in a cause of more weight Phi. Was Peter then Bishop of Rome when Paul reproued him Theo. It forceth not whether hee were or no. Peter as you pretende had his prerogatiue not from Rome but from Christ long before hee sawe Rome and therefore was in as full authoritie when Paul resisted him as when Nero martyred him and yet if their account bee true that were the first authours of his preferment to Rome hee was rebuked at Paules handes euen when hee was Bishoppe of Rome For Peter as Eusebius or some other in his name recordeth went to Rome and was Bishoppe there in the 44. yeare of Christ that is eleuen yeares after his passion Christ being put to death in the 33. yeare of his age
and Paul in the fifteenth yeare of his conuersion or as himselfe speaketh After fourteene yeares came not to Rome but to Ierusalem to conferre with Peter which at least must be the 48. yeare of Christ and foure yeares after Peters installation at Rome And after that when Peter came to Antioch and began to dissemble for feare of the Iewes which were sent from Iames Paul resisted him to his face and sharpely rebuked him not respecting that hee was then in his pontificalibus and newly made Bishop of Rome as you your selues beleeue Now choose whether you will disclaime Peter for no Bishop of Rome and so loose your succession from him or graunt that the Bishop of Rome may be lawfully resisted as Peter was which is the very thing you required vs to proue One of these twaine you shall neuer auoide do what you can Phi. I may not deny that Paul did it the Scripture is plaine I resisted him to his face but whether he did no more than he might or how to his face is a Schole-point and a pretie question Theo. No question at all vnlesse you will charge Paul with rashnesse in doing it vnshamefastnesse in writing it and wilfulnesse in directlie defending it For by this dissention doth he proue the â—oundnesse of his doctrine and by Peters yeelding hee confirmeth the Galathians that were wauering And therefore you must either allowe this resistaunce for good and lawfull or else conclude this Epistle to bee no Scripture and Paul to be voide of the holy Ghost in proposing an vnhonest and vngodly fact of his owne for a president which to say were no small blasphemie Phi. I did not auouch it but only moue the question Theo. You must moue no such questions if you be a Christian they be reprochfull to the spirit of God and iniurious to his word You were driuen to a narrow straite when you came to this shift You be loth I see to confesse either but there is no remedy Philander you must yeelde vs one of these whether you will or no. Phi. Let me heare the rest and then you shall know my minde Theo. Resist not truth to maintaine your credit God will surely reuenge it This example is ineuitable studie till your braines ake for an answere But the rest you shall heare Polycarpus being at Rome when Anicetus was Bishop there they dissenting in some other small matters were by and by reconciled but touching the obseruation of Easter-day which in diuerse places was diuersely kept Anicetus could not perswade Polycarpus to leaue those thinges which he had alwayes obserued with Iohn the Disciple of our Lord and the rest of the Apostles with whom he had beene conuersant Phi. The contention was but in words betweene them Theo. Yes they differed in deedes and Polycarpus could not be induced by any wordes to follow that manner of celebrating Easter-day which Anicetus receiued from those Apostles that founded the Romane Church This coÌ„trouersie waxed hoatter in Victors time who for the very same cause went about to cut off al the Churches of Asia from the vnitie of communion as intangled with some strange opinion and by letters inueighed against them and vtterly denounced al the brethren there excommunicated but for all his hast he was quickly staied Phi. By whom Theo. Polycrates in the behalfe of the Churches of Asia amongest other thinges replyeth thus to Victor I that haue seene threescore fiue yeares in the Lord and haue coÌ„ferred with the brethren throughout the world and haue turned and searched the holy Scripture will neuer be afraid of those thinges that are done to terrifie me I could make mention of the Bishops that are with me whoÌ„ you required me to send for and so I did whose names if I would recken they would make a great multitude which taking the paines to visit me a man of small account consent to this Epistle Victors deede did not please all the Bishops that otherwise were of his side Yea many of their letters saith Eusebius are extant that did sharply reproue Victor Amongest whom Ireneus was one that wrote in the name of his brethren of Fraunce where he was chiefe and allowed Victors opinion that the mysterie of the Lordes resurrection should bee kept onely vpon Sundaie But yet he wisely and largelie warneth Victor that he should not excommunicate all the churches of God obseruing their auncient tradition Phi. They withstood him in a small and trifling cause Theo. You take holde of that which doth hurt you To resist whom they should not in a matter that they neede not is a double offence and then shoulde Ireneus and others haue rather reproued Polycrates and his adherentes for neglecting their dueties than the Bishop of Rome for passing his boundes but in that hee was stoutly resisted by the one and sharpelie reproued by the other it is euident that neither of them tooke him for his sole and supreme directer of Christes Church on earth Of Cyprian I said before that he counselled the Church of Spain to reiect Basilides notwithstanding his restitution by Stephanus Bishop of Rome and howe vehemently the saide Stephanus was resisted by Cyprian for the rebaptizing of such as forsooke their heresies his Epistle to Pompeius doth aboundantlie witnesse Because you desired to knowe what aunswere our brother Stephanus Bishoppe of Rome returned to our letters I haue sent you a copie of that he wrote By the reading whereof you shall more and more perceiue his error that hee laboureth to maintaine the cause of heretickes against the Church of God For amongest other thinges either superfluous or impertinent or contrarie to themselues which he writeth vnskilfully and vnwisely hee added this c. And hauing repeated and refuted the wordes of Stephanus What blindnesse of heart saith Cyprian is this and what peruersenesse that hee will not acknowledge the vnitie of faith comming from God the Father by the deliuery of our Lorde Iesus Christ And where no heresie no nor schisme can haue the sanctification of healthfull baptisme out of the Church why doth the inflexible obstinacie of our brother Stephanus breake out so farre that of Martions baptisme and such like blasphemers against God the Father he auoucheth children may be borne vnto God It commeth of too much presumption and frowardnes that a man had rather defende his owne though it bee false and naught than yeelde to an others deedes and words How like you this resisistance doth it go to the quicke or no Phi. This was an error in Cyprian for Stephanus held the truth Theo. The question is not whether Cypryan were deceiued but whether Stephanus were resisted I grant in this case Stephanus had the better part but yet Cyprian the Bishops of Africa thought theÌ„selues to be right vpon that opinion of truth how far they resisted the Bishop of Rome their acts Epistles declare Phi. Their matter I tel you was naught
Theo. That doth rather fasten than shake my conclusioÌ„ For if Cyprian the Bishops of Africa when their cause was not good resisting the Bishops of Rome both in words deeds were taken accounted in the Church of God for Christian Catholike Bishops yea Cyprian the chiefe leader of them and most earnest against him for a worthie Father glorious Martyr how much more then in a right and iust cause might the Bishops of Rome be lawfully resisted in those dayes The which I may likewise conclude by the next example where the Bishops of Rome were not onely resisted but at length forced to yeelde to Flauianus although their strife with him at the first seemed to carry some reason Phi. Did they not wel to reiect him that was made Bishop against his oth Flauianus was one of those that were sworne neither to seeke nor to accept the Bishopricke of Antioch if they were chosen till Miletius Paulinus were both dead that thereby the Church of Antioch which before was diuided in two partes vnder two Bishops might be ioyned togither and vnited in one and hee vpon the death of Miletius whiles Paulinus yet liued not respecting his oth was content to take the place Theo. I sayde there was some cause for the Bishoppes of Rome to refuse him and yet notwithstanding the goodnesse of their quarrell and sharpenesse of contention which Damasus Syriâ—ius Athanasius and Innocentius maintayned against him all the Churches of the East of Asia Pontus Thracia and Illyricum tooke part with Flauianus defended his election and receiued his communion though the Bishops of Rome would do neither And Theodosius the elder a very religious Emperour hauing the courage and wisedom of Flauianus in admiration and seeing the number of Churches that did communicate with him willed him to returne feede the Church or flock committed to his charge Against whom when the Bishoppe of Rome made a long accusation the godly Prince vndertooke his defence pleaded his cause and exhorted them to knit their Churches togither and to leaue striuing and extinguish those foolish brables And so was the Bishop of Rome glad to giue ouer the quarell which hee and three of his predecessors had for the space of seuenteene yeares egerly followed against Flauianus How little Cyrillus esteemed the communion of the Bishop of Rome doeth well appeare by his answere to Atticus where hee vehemently diswadeth that Chrysostoms name after his death should be put in the Catalogue of Bishops notwithstanding Innocentius and the West Bishops would not communicate with Egypt or the East partes till that were obtayned Phi. It was a fault in Cyrill to be so vehement against Chrysostom in fauor of his vnkle Theophilus the chiefe doer of all this and that ouersight he after corrected by yeelding to that which before he rufused Theo. What moued Cyrill at the first to withstand and after to yeeld I neede not care you may not iudge were the cause good or bad to my purpose all is one this is it that I vrge neither Cyrill nor Atticus nor the Churches with them were reputed schismaticall for lacking or neglecting so long time the communioÌ„ of the Bishop of Rome though the matter they stood on were skant sound Phi. You should bring vs an example where the Bishop of Rome was withstood by a Councell the factes of priuate men carie not so great credit as when they bee done in a publike Synode Theo. The men that I haue named vnto you were no such obscure persons that you neede doubt of theyr credit They were for their calling and function Bishops and Patriarkes for their learning and holinesse lightes in the Church of Christ and are so taken to this daie Neither as you suppose were they alone in these actions but had the Bishoppes and Churches adioyning to take their partes and did these thinges which I spake of in open Councell Polycrates had with him a Councell in Asia when he resisted Victor and Ireneus had likewise an other in Fraunce when he reproued him Cyprian and 84. Africane Bishops ioyned together in the CouÌ„cel of Carthage against Stephanus With Flauianus as Sozomene writeth were the Bishops of Syria Phenica Armenia Cappadocia Galatia as Theodorete sayth all the Churches of Asia Pontus Thracia Illyricum besides all the East Churches That which Cyrill defended was done by two Councels allowed by the three Patriarkes of Alexandria Constantinople Antioche and their Prouinces And therefore these are no priuate men nor matters as you pretend but thinges done in open Synodes by no meane Bishoppes And yet to content your mind you shall see where the Bishop of Rome clayming farre lesse authoritie than hee doeth at this day was openly resisted in a Councell of 217. Bishops to his immortall shame and your vtter ouerthrow in this cause Sozimus Bishop of Rome sending his Legats Faustinus Philippus and Asellus to the sixt Councell of Carthage in fauour of Apiarius a Priest that fled to Rome for ayde against Vrbanus his Dioecesane which had taken both his function the communion from him for his lewdnes amongst other things gaue them in charge to clayme this prerogatiue for him and his See that if any Bishoppes were accused or deposed and appealed to Rome the Byshoppe of Rome might either write to the next Prouince to determine the matter or send some from his side to represent his person and to sit in iudgement with the Bishoppes And to proue this lawfull he cited in writing vnder his hande a Canon of the Councell of Nice tending to that effect The Godly fathers assembling themselues out of all Africa to the number of 217. and finding no such Canon in their bookes either Greeke or Latine wrate to the Patriarkes of Alexandria Constantinople and Antioche for true and authentike copies of the Nicene Councell and seeing their owne copies agree worde for worde with those that were brought and no such thing to bee found in any Canon there first by their decree cut off appeales to Rome and secondly by their letters traduced the Bishop of Rome as well for his ambition as forgerie Phi. An old broken matter often alleaged and offen answered Theo. You could doe litle if you could not crake but that will not serue your turnes you must spare vs a better answere In deede Bonifacius the second doeth answere the matter in this sort Aurelius praefatae Carthagiensis ecclesiae olim Episcopus cum collegis suis instigante Diabolo superbire temporibus praedecessorum nostrorum Bonifacij Caelestini contra Romanam ecclesiam cepit Aurelius once Bishoppe of Carthage with his collegues amongst whom was S. Austen with many other learned and Godly fathers in the time of Bonifacius and Caelestinus our predecessours began through the instigation of the Deuill to be malepart with the church of Rome If you take this for an answere so is it other I know
blood and bowels against them And therefore no maruaile if king Henrie relented somewhat of his former stoutnesse when the king of Fraunce the Earle of Flaunders the king of Scots the yong king his sonne and two other of his children the Duke of Aquitane and Earle of Britaine cōspired against him but it is euident that frō the conquest till the time these lawes and liberties stood in their full force and were publikely receiued and vsed in this Realme Phi. Did the Pope procure him these enemies Theo. What packing there was betweene the French king and the Pope though the stories in this place do not confesse yet we may soone coniecture by the generall drift of your holy Father his blessed adherents in those daies specially by the exāple of king Iohn the sonne of the said king Henrie whom for refusing the disordered election of Stephen Langton to the church of Canterbury Innocentius the 3. so terrified with open inuasion of enemies secret defection of subiects that for safegard of himselfe he was driuen to resigne his kingdome take it againe at the Popes hands in fee farme vnder the yearly rent of a thowsand marks binding himself his heires for euer to do the like homage fealtie to the Bishops of Rome for the crowne of England Which shamefull seruitude of the Prince vtter ruine of the Realme so much displeased the barōs bishops that before toke the Popes part against the king that in plaine contempt of the Popes keies curses they chose them an other king chased king Iohn the Popes farmour from place to place in despite of al y his new Landlord could do or deuise But this I omit because the quarel touched the right title to the crown I medle only with those resistances which the kings of England made for men and matters ecclesiastical Phi. I trust they were not many Theo. For the first hundred yeares next the cōquest it is clear the kings of this Realm would neuer allow their subiects to run to Rome nor suffer appeals to be made to the Pope without their expresse consent now shall you see what they which came after did When king Edw. the 3. reuiued the statute of Premunire made by king Edw. the 1. in the 35. year of his raign against such as sought to Rome to prouide thē of benefices other ecclesiastical promotions wtin this realm enacting the same penalty for those that by processe frō thence impugned any iudgement giuen in the kings courts or brought from Rome any Bul writing or instrumēt to those other like effects Gregory the 11. then Bishop of Rome vnderstanding therof was very earnest against it protesting this was nothing else but to make a schism in the church of Christ to abolish religion to subuert right reason infringe al coūcels speedily dealt with king Edw. to abrogate this law A schisme rising not long after in the church of Rome there was not a Pope that had any care of this til at lēgth Martin the 5. wrote more vehemēt letters to K. H. the 6. But these two bishops of Rome receiued one the same answer which was that an act of Parliament could not be repealed without the autority of a Parliamēt that shortly one should be called to that end which neuer after was performed Yea the king that came after did not only cause that law to be kept put in vre but increased the terror of it with a rigorous punishmēt which is that the party so offending shal forfeit his goods himself be condemned to perpetual imprisonmēt This writer an Italian born a man wedded to the See of Rome confesseth the Popes authority was abated restrained by the lawes of this Realm in the time of king Edward the 3. and so continued euer after that not only the Popes letters were twise refused but the sharpnesse of the punishment increased to strengthen the Statute that pared their power and limited his iurisdiction within this Realme Phi. Perhaps they wtstood him for tēporal matters Theo. The matters were such as your own church accoūteth spiritual to wit electiōs of Bishops gifts of benefices procedings in other causes tending as the cōmplaint of Gregory teacheth you to the diuision of the church extirpation of religion subuersion of al councels which you may not thinke to be temporall matters And this resistance which the Bishop of Rome so much repined at in the daies of king Edward the 3. neuer ceased till king Henry the 8. of famous memory banished the Popes vsurped power cleane out of this Land Phi. So did none of his progenitors before him Theo. It may be they wēt not so far as he did but as Polydor writeth R. Rich. the 2. wēt fairly towards it In a Parliament held the 14. yeare of his raigne the king his princes were of opinion that it would be very good for the realme of England if some part of the Popes dominion were determined with the Sea that is excluded out of this lād for that many wer daily vexed for causes which they thought could not so easily be ended at Rome Wherefore they made a law that no mā euer after should deal with the Bishops of Rome that any person in Englād should by his autority for any cause be excōmunicated that none should execute any such precept if it were sent him If any mā brake this law the pain apointed was he should lose al he had ly in prison during his life And where the pope trauailed by al means to ouerthrow the statute of prouisiō premunire the parliamēt held in the 13. year of Rich. the 2. for the better establishing surer executing of the law made it death for any mā to bring or send Bul or other proces frō Rome to impugn the same These be the words Itē it is ordained established that if any mā bring or send within this realm or the kings power any sūmōs sentēce or excōmunicatiō against any persō of what cōditiō that he be for the cause of making motiō assent or executiō of the said statute of Prouisors or premunire he shal be takē arested put in prison forfeit al his lands tenements goods catle for euer moreouer incur the pain of life mēber So the kingdoms cōmonwelths as wel as councels of al others Frāce England haue from time to time resisted your holy father in the midst of his terror tyrany P. You shew they did it but you do not shew they did wel in it Th. I need not you must shew they did il The prince by gods ordināce beareth the sword not the pope therfore the presumption lieth for the prince against the pope til you proue the cōtrary besids if bishops in a synod may lawfully resist him why may not princes in their parliamēts
do the like Thirdly since the Romane Emperors were wōt to cōmand him what reason cā you bring why christiā princes shold not now restrain him And last of al if you forget not your self my promise was to shew that not in the primatiue Church only when there was no question of his obedience to religious princes but in latter times when the Bishop of Rome presumed to be Lorde ouer all he was controled resisted by those Councels Common-wealthes which your owne Church neuer durst reiect as schismaticall and hereticall Phi. In some thinges they withstood him but not in all thinges as you doe Theo. That shift is litle worth If resistāce be lawful in part why not in al whē iust cause requireth Phi. In matters of faith they neuer resisted Theo. That maketh our resistāce the more lawful They withstood him for an earthly policy we for Christes glorie they for externall discipline we for Apostolicall doctrine Therefore if they might lawfully resist much more may we But my demand is onely whether you see that as the Bishop of Rome withstood others in the regiment of the Church so many Councels Countries Princes Prelats withstood him as the places which I bring conuince Phi. What if they did Theo. First did they that which I speake or no Phi. Grant they did Theo. Then your examples conclude nothing against vs. For as hee resisted others in causes Ecclesiasticall so did others resist him and our examples inferre against you that your owne Church neuer obeied that supreme power and infallible iudgement which he now claimeth you now yeeld to flatter him with Phi. They tooke him for Christes Uicar and Peters successour Theo. How they tooke him in latter ages it greatly skilleth not the learned and ancient Fathers call him Peters successor Christes Uicar they neuer call him And graunt he be Peters successor that importeth no supremacie Phi. Doth it not Theo. No mary doth it not You must first proue that Peter was supreme gouernour of all the Church which you shall neuer do Next you must proue that this dignitie was not proper to Peters person but common to Peters successour which we denie For Peters primacie was giuen him in respect of the confession which he made not in respect of the place which he should inioy Lastly you must shew which of Peters chayres must haue Peters priuiledge that is why Rome rather than Antioch These three points when you iustly proue we will say more to your vaine pretences and glorious titles in the meane time till occasion serue to make farther triall you may go forwarde with the rest of your Apologie which if it be like this it will do your friendes litle good and your foes lesse hurt Phi. You disgrace that which you can not disproue Theo. Wee neede no better disproofe than the sober reading of your insolent and impertinent discourses purposely made to commend and aduaunce your selues and your adherentes aboue the skies Phi. Where do we so Theo. Almost in euerie leafe For example this whole chapter is spent in flattering your holy Father praising his deuout citie The next hath nothing else but the commendation of your selues your Seminaries as if the proclaiming of his your vertues were the chiefest point of his and your faith Phi. You say not well we do not so Theo. Reade the places you shall finde them full of these and such like flowers To Rome Whatsoeuer is learned wise vertuous of all the most famous Vniuersities Monasteries Societies and Celleges through the world is recuiled as to a continuall mar◠of all kinde of doctrine prudence And againe These and such other high experiments with innumerable examples of vertue and deuotion shall this Romane institution giue to our Countrimen vnder the famousest teachers gouernours of youth in our age or som worlds before Who otherwise would admire their pety masters at home the cause of al error ignorāce Ar you not liberal in praising your selues Belike you thinke with your only looks to daūt all the Diuines preachers of Englād as if not a fewe wandring friers craking Iesuites but some new Cyprians or famous Augustins were lately arriued at your Romish Seminarie But let passe your follies come to your autorities To what end aleage you S. Hierō Phi. S. Hierom calleth Rome the place of greatest faith and deuotion Theo. What then Ierusalem was first a faithfull Citie yet in time became a shamelesse strumpet Niniueth was spared for her true repentance afterward plagued for her robberies and lies What Rome was then doeth no way proue what Rome is now You must send vs better reasons from Rome for Rome before you shall perswade vs that there is at Rome such store of learning and vertue as you vaunt of If Rome be changed since Hierom wrate your conclusiō halteth though his wordes goe right Phi. That change you must proue Theo. Alas good Sirs begin you now to doubt whether Rome be changed Reade your owne Friers Monkes and Abbots and you shall soone be resolued in that doubt Frier Mantuan sayth shortly but truely Viuere qui sanctè cupitis discedite Roma Omnia cum liceant non licet esse bonum You that wish to liue godly depart from Rome al things are there suffred saue godlines Mathew Paris a Monke of S. Albons euery where toucheth the vertues of the church of Rome saith they were known to the verie miscreants For when y◠Souldan of Iconium desired to be baptised from Rome his nobles by reason of so many vices abounding at Rome sayd Howe can there come sweet and salt water from the same fountaine whence Christians should fet the water of righteousnes there they find a poysoned pudle And in the yere of our Lord 1241 he sayth The vnsatiable greedines of the Church of Rome so increased confounding right and wrong that without shame as a common impudent harlot she lay open for money to euery man counting vsurie for a small fault and Symonie for none But no man more liuely describeth the maners and dispositions of the latter Romanes than Bernard Abbot of Clareuallis and that not priuily behind their backs but openly to their faces forewarning Eugenius the pope what to looke for at their hands Quid tam notum seculis quà m proteruia fastus Romanorum Gens insueta paci tumultui assueta Gens immitis intractabilis vsque ad huc subdi nescia nisi cum non valet resistere Experire paucis nouerim ne ego gentis mores Ante omnia sapientes sunt vt faciant mala bonum autem facere nesciunt Impij in deum temerarij in sancta seditiosi in inuicem emuli in vicinos inhumani in extraneos Hij sunt qui subesse non sustinēt praeesse non norunt superioribus infideles inferioribus importabiles inuericundi ad petendum ad negandum frontosi
of bishops euen froÌ„ the apostles time So that neither the words which you alleage should be referred to Sedes Apostolica the apostolike seate nor if they were doth yâ— phrase infer yâ— the church had al her credite froÌ„ Rome but yâ— by the confessioÌ„ of al men the catholike Church had bene in greatest credite euer since the time that Peter sate through the successions of her bishops heretiks barking against her in vain Phi. You said there was nothing in our secoÌ„d chapter worth answering it hath cost you more paines theÌ„ you thought Theo. Your general dissolute discourses I told you were to litle purpose For grant that some godly men resorted to Rome whiles the bishop there was equal with his brethren obedieÌ„t to the magistrate which is all that you proue what doth this help you to coÌ„clude that you may now runne to Rome the Pope clayming and vsurping a newe founde power repugnant to the scriptures iniurious to the Church of Christ and pernitious to the Prince whom God hath annoynted ouer you Phi. The Pope claymeth no such power as you speake of Theo. What power he claimeth vseth ouer princes is too wel knowen for you to denie The worlde hath had long experience of it this Realme hath had late What authoritie he chalengeth ouer the Church of Christ if he did keepe secret you doe not You make him the rocke of refuge in doubtful daies doctrines the chiefe pastor Bishop of your soules in earth The vicar generall of Christ and he that taketh these titles to himselfe without alowance from God is an enemie to Christ oppresseth his Church Phi. God hath allowed the Bishop of Rome that power which he claymeth Theo. That if you could proue the matter were answered that til you do proue your popular perswasions are as I said but lip-labour and no way concerne the cause Phi. That is shal be proued Theo. Neuer feede vs with shales you neuer were nor euer shall be able to proue it Phi. Suspend your iudgement till you see the end Theo. I am content to heare all mary in the meane time you may not presume that which is but lightly touched by you to be clerely proued Phi. We wil not Theo. By that which you haue done I gesse what you wil do We haue discussed two chapters of your Apology where we found nothing but words And therefore vnlesse you drawe to some matter I see no reason why I should stand refelling your phrases Phi. The thirde chapter goeth neerer Theo. In your third chapter what shall we find Phi. The meaning purpose why both our Seminaries were erected Theo. Your owne purposes you can best tell Phi. First to draw diuers youth who for their conscience liued in the lowe Countries from sole seueral voluntarie studie to a more exact methode course of common conference publike exercise to be pursued by their superiours appointment rather than their own choyse Secondly doubting the time of our chastisement might be so long as to weare out either by age imprisonment or other miseries the elder sort of the learned Catholikes both at home and abroad it was thought a necessarie duetie for thâ— posteritie to prouide for a perpetual seed supplie of Catholikes namely of the Clergie Thirdly their purpose was to draw vnto this College the best wits out of England that were either Catholikely bent or desirous of more exact educatioÌ„ than is in these daies in either of the vniuersities where through the delicacie of that sect there is no Art holy or prophane throughly studied some not touched at al or that had scruple of coÌ„scieÌ„ce to take the oth of the Queenes supremacie in causes ecclesiastical or that misliked to be forced to the Ministerie as the vse is in diuers Colleges a calling contemptible euen in their own conceipt very damnable in the iudgement of others or that were doutful whether of the two religions were true which hath driueÌ„ diuers ouer to their great satisfaction admiration of the euidence of our part These were the chiefe respects that led his holines to found our two Seminaries the fruits wherof we haue seene to our great comfort Theo. And this I see you keep your old wont You affirme what you list vpon your own credite disdaining your aduersaries as prophane vnlearned you coÌ„mend your selues for the onely minions of the world set this aside and what one thing is there in your third chapter worth the speaking to Phi. You mislike that Seminaries were appointed for English Students beyond the seas We now proue the first erection of them to be needful healthfull for this realme Theo. Sir your liege Ladie misliked and had good cause so to doe that her subiects were â—locked from her encouraged against her by your practises promises that her open and sworne enemie kept them in couerts which you cal Seminaries and trayned them vp at his charges to bee fit instruments for his secret deuises and purposes Of this you speake not a word but arrogantly defacing both Uniuersities with loosenes of life slackenes of studie you come in with your exact education holy conuersation as if the report of your owne vertues from your owne mouthes were enough to auoyd and preuent al obiections Phi. That answere might serue where nothing was proued but only surmised against vs. Theo. You forget that a Prince did obiect it to whom you were bound with all reuerence and duetie to make your ful and sufficient answere Phi. So haue we done Theo. Mary that you haue in deede The things misliked were these First that by your meanes yong boyes were prouoked and allured to forsake their parents vnstable wittes their Studies subiects their Prince without asking leaue no tyrannie nor torment inflicted or offered to cause them to flie Next that your seminaries as well for their direction as prouision do wholy depend on his pleasure fauour that hath euer since the beginning professed shewed himselfe a mortal enemie to your soueraigne deposing her Person inuading her land and pulling her subiects from her obedience Thirdly that your teachers learners in either of your colleges do not only nourish this trayterous position in their own brests that her highnesse neither is nor ought to bee taken for lawfull Queene of England longer than the Pope shall permit but also labour to poyson her people with that diuelish perswasion vnder colour of religion These points your Patrone cunningly skippeth and falleth to the coÌ„mending and preferring the maners orders vertues of your two Colleges before our two vniuersities which comparison is neither seemely to be published nor easie to be credited Phi. Concerning his holinesse intentions if they be any other in the institution entertainement of those Seminaries than ours are they by vnknowen to vs none being so presumptuous to search further into his secrets than standeth with his good
Ecclesiasticall Lawes for 800. yeares and vpward answereth the Iesuites authorities and absurdities heaped against the Princes regiment searcheth the safest way for the Princes direction in matters of Religion and concludeth the Pope in doubts of doctrine to be no sufficient nor superiour Iudge Phi. FIRST then whereas in the Proclamation we be charged to liue contrary to the lawes of God the Realme c. We answere that if the lawes of God the lawes of the Realme did alwaies consent concur in deed as in this clause other cōmon writings speeches proceeding frō autority they be lightly in words couched togither against vs hardly could wee defende our doctrines and doings frō error vnduetifulnes towards our prince But seeing the lawes of kings and Countries are not euer consonant but may be contrary to Gods commandements we may iustly mislike the one without disloyalty to the other When Emperours saith Augustine be in errour they make lawes for their errour against the truth by which iust men are tried crowned for not doing that which they command because God forbiddeth it Theo. That some princes haue made lawes against God his truth is a case so cleare that it needed no proofe as also that wee must rather obey God than men when their lawes do swarue frō his again on the other side that princes haue made lawes for the true seruice worship of God did rightly iudge it to be a part of their charge that all they which resist those lawes shal be grieuously punished at Gods hands though you craftily dissemble you can not deny S. Austen in this very place which you bring for your defence the very next words wil tel you so much Quando autē Imperatores veritatem tenent pro ipsa veritate contra errorē iubent quod quisquis contempserit ipse sibi iudicium acquirit When Emperors hold the truth they cōmand for truth against error which cōmādement whosoeuer despiseth he purchaseth to himselfe iudgement For he shal be punished by mē haue no part with God for not doing that which truth it selfe by the kings hart commanded him These words you did wel to cut off they were enough to mar your market Phi. Not ours The. Wil you thē cōfesse that princes may commād for truth against error that whosoeuer despiseth their commandement in those cases shal incur iudgement So saith S. Austen in plaine wordes Phi. They may commaund mary the Church must appoint them what they shall commaund Theo. What mean you by the Church Phi. What should I meane by the Church but the church Theo You loue to play with wordes Mean you laimen or priests or both Phi. Euer heard you the church taken for laimen The. When S. Paul sent for the elders of Ephesus willed them to take heed to themselues the whole slocke ouer which the holy Ghost had placed them to rule or feed the Church of God what ment hee by the Church the Priestes to whom he spake or the people Phi. There you see the Priestes are to rule the Church Theo. There also you may see the Church is not to rule the Prince Phi. How doth that follow Theo. The Church is there taken for the people which must not rule but obey the Prince Phi. By the Church in my first answere I ment the Priestes and not the people Theo. Can you shew where the Church in all the Scriptures is takē for the Priests without the people Phi. We call them only Churchmen Theo. We respect not your abuse but the right vse of the word The Church is neuer taken in the new nor old Testament for the Priestes alone but generally for the whole congregation of the faithfull And therefore when you say the Prince must be ruled by the Church you dallie with a doubtfull word and put a faire colour vppon a foule cause but you must distinctly tell vs what persons you mean when you say the Church must appoint what the Prince shal command Phi. I meane Churchmen that is Priestes and Bishops Theo. And what if Churchmen do not agree which is truth as in our dayes they do not may Princes make their choyse what Churchmen they will follow Phi. No the chiefe ruler of the Church and head Bishop on earth must appoint them what faith they shall imbrace Theo. That chiefe ruler of the Church you take to be the Pope Phi. We do Theo. We like you well for your plainesse Then Princes may commaund that which the Church you meane Churchmen or if they agree not the chiefe Churchman which is the Pope shall appoint This is your assertion is it not Phi. It is Theo. What you say Princes must do for the Pope we say princes may do for Christ that is they may plant and establish the Christian faith in their Realmes by their Princely power though the Pope say nay This is our doctrine can you reproue it Phi. Who shall be iudge which is the true Christian faith Theo. You slip now to an other question It is one thing who may command for truth another who shal direct vnto truth We say Princes may command for truth punish the refusers this no Bishop may chalenge but onely the Prince that beareth the sworde This is the first part of our question And touching the second which is the safest way for princes to be guided vnto the truth though we differ about the meanes you reseruing it as a speciall priuilege to the Pope we referring it as a common duetie to the Preacher yet this is euident that Princes must be directed vnto truth the same way that al other Christians are to wit by perswasion and not by coaction For no Prelate nor Pope hath authoritie from Christ to compel priuate men much lesse princes to the profession of faith but onely to teach and instruct them These be the two pointes wee stand on disproue them if you can Phi. This is not al. You would haue Our faith and saluation so to hang on the Princes will and Lawes that there could be imagined no neerer waie to religion than to beleeue what our temporall Lord and Maister list Theo. It is a cunning when you can not confute your aduersaries at least to beelie them that you may seeme to say somewhat against them In deede your fourth chapter is wholie spent in refelling this position which we detest more than you Phi. You begin to shrinke from your former teaching Theo. You will neuer shrink frō your former facing Did euer any man on our side affirm the princes will to be the rule of faith Haue we not earnestly written and openly taught that Religion must not depend vpon the pleasures of men Haue not thowsandes of vs here in England and elsewhere giuen our liues for the witnesse and confession of Gods truth against princes lawes and Popes decrees In Spaine Fraunce Italie
and other places at this day do wee not indure all the tormentes you can deuise because wee will not beleeue what temporall Lordes and Masters list Your owne conscience knoweth it is true that wee saie Why then doe you charge vs with this wicked assertion from the which wee bee farther off than you For you holde opinion of Popes that they cannot erre we do not of Princes Why do you father your owne fansies vppon vs Why d ee you purposely peruert the question heaping absurdities and alleaging authorities against that which we do not defend Phi. The oth which you take your selues and exact of others induceth vs thus to thinke of you For there you make Princes the onely supreme Gouernours of all persons in all causes as well spirituall as temporall vtterly renouncing all forraine iurisdictions superiorities and authorities Uppon which wordes marke what an horrible confusion of all faith and Religion insueth If Princes bee the onely Gouernours in Ecclesiasticall matters then in vaine did the holy Ghost appoint Pastours and Bishops to gouern the Church If they bee supreme then are they superiour to Christ himselfe and in effect Christes Masters If in all thinges and causes spirituall then they may prescribe to the priestes and Bishops what to preach which way to worship and serue God how in what forme to minister the Sacramentes and generally howe men shall be gouerned in soule If all forraine iurisdiction must bee renounced then Christ his Apostles because they were are forreners haue no iurisdiction nor authoritie ouer England A thowsand other absurdities are consequent to this oth which anon you shall heare Theo. Wake you or dreame you Philander that in matters of no lesse weight than your duetie to God and the Prince you fall to these childish and pelting sophismes What kinde of concluding call you this Princes onely beare the sword to commaund and punish ergo Bishops may not teach and exhort Princes be not subiect to the Pope ergo superiours to Christ. They may by their lawes establish those thinges that Christ hath commaunded ergo they may change both Scriptures and Sacramentes No forrainer at this day hath any iurisdiction ouer this Land ergo Christ and his Apostles fifteene hundred yeeres ago might not preach the Gospel Phi. We make no such fond reasons Theo. The former propositions are the true contens of the oth which wee take the later are those very absurdities which you infer vpon vs for taking that oth Phi. You would slip from your words which wee knowe to your meaning which we know not but that you shal not We grouÌ„ded our absurdities vpoÌ„ the words of your oth For if princes be supreme gouernors in al spiritual things causes ergo they be supreme iudges of faith deciders of controuersies interpreters of scriptures deuisers of ceremonies appointers of sacrameÌ„ts what not The. You might euen as well haue coÌ„cluded princes be supreme gouernors in al teÌ„poral things causes ergo they be supreme guiders of graÌ„mer moderators of Logik directors of Rhetorik appointers of Musike prescribers of Medicines resoluers of al doubtes iudges of al matters incident any way to reason art or actioÌ„ If this be leud irreuereÌ„t iesting yours is no better Ph. I promise you we iest not The. The more shame for you if you be in earnest to conclude so loosely Phi. Do you make princes supreme gouernors of al spiritual things Theo. You reason as if we did but our words since you wil needes rest vpon wordes are not so Phi. What are they then The. We coÌ„fesse them to be supreme gouernors of their Realms DominioÌ„s Phi. And that in al spriritual things causes The. Not of al spiritual things causes Ph. What differeÌ„ce between those two speeches Theo. Iust as much as excludeth your wrangling Wee make them not gouernors of the things themselues but of all their subiectes which I trust you dare not withstand Phi. I grant they be gouernors of their subiects but not in Ecclesiasticall things or causes They must leaue those matters for Bishops whoÌ„ Christ hath appointed to be yâ— rulers of his church And therfore your oth yeelding that power to princes which is proper to Bishops is repugnant to the lawes of God the church nature Yea it is an euideÌ„t error reproueable by al humane diuine learning that the souerainty or supremacy in causes Ecclesiasticall is by nature or by christian lawes implied in the right title of a temporal king or that it euer was due or can be due to any temporall gouernor heathen or christiaÌ„ in the world And if you will but giue eare you shal heare what a number of absurdities we wil fasten vpon you The. This oth is a great eye sore with you and I remember I promised to discusse the same in this chapter I will therefore first examine the chiefe parts of it and after you shall obiect against it what you can Where we professe that her Highnes is the onely gouernor of this Realme the word gouernor doth seuer the magistrate from the minister sheweth a manifest differeÌ„ce between their office For Bishops be no gouernors of countries princes be that is Bishops bear not the sword to reward reuenge princes do Bishops haue no power to command punish princes haue This appeareth by the words of our Sauiour expressely forbidding his Apostles to be rulers of nations leauing it to princes The kings of nations rule ouer their people and they that be great ones exercise authority With you it shal not be so that is you shall neither beare rule nor exercise authority ouer your brethren Phi. The word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they ouerrule their subiects with iniustice violence you shal not do so Theo. So your new translatioÌ„ ouer ruleth the word howbeit Christ in that place doth not traduce the power of princes as vniust or outragious but distinguisheth yâ— calling of his Apostles froÌ„ the maner of regimeÌ„t which God hath allowed the magistrate Christ â—aith not princes bee tyrantes you shal deale more curteously than they do but he saith Princes bee Lords and rulers ouer their people by Gods ordinaÌ„ce you shal not be so Again the word which S. Luke hath is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without any composition They be Lords and masters S. Paul confesseth of himselfe other Apostles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Not that we be Lords or Masters of your faith yea the compound 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is with power force to rule meÌ„ whether they will or no not with wrong iniury to oppresse them therefore the conclusion is ineuitable that princes may lawfully compell punish their subiects which Bishops may not This distinction between them is euident by their seueral coÌ„missions which God hath signed The prince not the priest beareth the sword ergo the prince not
Phi. It may Theo. Should corrupt false Religion be displaced banished and the spredders of it dispersed skattered Phi. In any case Theo. Ought malefactors against God as heretikes blasphemers sorcerers idolaters such other transgressours of the first table to be reuenged and punished as well as offenders against men and the breakers of the second table Phi. What else Theo. Can any man freely permit safely defend generally restrayne and externally punish within a realme but onely the Prince Phi. None Theo. Then if these things needfully must and lawfully may bee done for Christ and his Church none can doe them but Magistrates it is euident that the Princes power charge doth stretch vnto thinges causes that bee spirituall as well as temporall Or if S. Austens wordes do better please you that Princes may command that which is good and prohibite that which is euill within their kingdomes not in ciuile affaires onely but in matters also that concerne diuine Religion Phi. Did the Christian Princes in the primatiue Church since the cōming of Christ commaund punish in matters Ecclesiasticall Theo. If their examples do not concur with my former proofes good leaue haue you to beleeue neither if they do take heede you withstand not a manifest truth And here you shal choose whether you will haue a short report or a large rehearsal of their doings Socrates touching them all saith We therefore make mention of Emperors throughout this historie for that since they became Christians Ecclesiastical matters depend on them the greatest Synods haue been and are yet called by their appointment And Alciat a man of your own side Nemim dubiū est quin in primatiua ecclesia de rebus personis ecclesiast c. THERE CAN BE NO DOVBT saith he but in the primatiue Church Emperors had the iurisdiction that is the ruling and gouerning of persons and causes Ecclesiasticall Ius dicere referred to Princes is not to decide matters in question by law for so did Iudges not Princes but to make lawes and betweene lawmakers gouernors you can find litle difference for by publike lawes commāding good punishing euil princes do chiefly gouerne Then if christian Monarks in the primatiue church guided ecclesiastical matters persons by their imperiall lawes as this learned famous lawier putteth vs out of doubt they did you must shew when how they forfeited this power If it were thē lawful vsual how can it be now strange vsurped If there be no doubt of this with what cōscience do you not doubt but deny this Perhaps you disdaine the witnesse Alciat in euery respect was well learned in his faculty which was law deserueth more credit than the best of you yet least I should seeme to presse you with names not with proofes let vs view the proceedings of some Christiā Emperors and iudge you whether they be not both ancient and euident What power Constantine claimed vsed in causes ecclesiasticall the foure books of Eusebius other church stories describing the lawes letters acts of Cōstantine beare witnes sufficient First he gaue the christiās free liberty to professe their religion built them places of praier at his own charges entreated their bishops with all possible fauor honor Next he prohibited the gentiles their ancient vsual idolatries diuinatiōs oracles images sacrifices Heretiks he debarred not only churches secret conuents but excluded them also from the priuileges which him-selfe had prouided for Catholike persons If Constantines example deserue to be praised followed which no man except he be void of common sense wil gainsay then may christian Princes in the right of their scepter sword I meane their publike vocation charge without seeking any farther warrāt from Rome forbid wicked and idolatrous superstition admit and assist to the best of their power the preaching of the trueth sequester heretikes from the dignities and liberties graunted to good and religious subiectes for so did Constantine whose godly vertues and happie paines all nations then imbraced all ages since confessed all Princes now should imitate Besides this he did many thinges both for spredding the faith guiding the church of Christ worthy great cōmendation By my ministery saith this good Emperor mākind is brought to the keeping obseruing of the most sacred law by the seruice which I perform to God al things euery where directly speaking of things ecclesiasticall are setled in order yea the barbarous nations which til this time knew not the truth now praise the name of God sincerely whom they reuerēce for dread of vs. Towards the church of Christ he shewed an excellēt special care calling coūcels of bishops when any dissention sprang as a common bishop ouerseer appointed by God not disdaining to be present confer with them the rather to keep thē al in christian peace For his maner was in their synods not to sit idle but to marke aduisedly what euery man said to help their either side disputing to tēper such as kindled too fast to reason mildly with ech part vndertake iointly with thē to search out the truth confirming their decrees with his seal least other tēporal iudges rulers should infringe them When occasiō serued him not to gather a coūcel he did by writing aduertise the parties dissenting of his opiniō iudgemēt interposing himself as an arbiter in their cōtrouersies somtimes Prescribing the bishops what was profitable for the church of God somtimes the people to which end he wrot many letters emitting neither rebukes nor threats whē need so required Whē the coūcel of Tyrus was gathered by his edict he cōmāded thē first to discusse the truth of such crimes as were pretēded against Athan. who was loth to come before thē saue that he feared the thretning letters of Const. writtē to this effect If any which I think not in contēpt of our mādate fail to come before you we wil send a warrāt frō our roial autority that he shal be banished to teach him what it is for bishops clerks to withstād the precept of the chief ruler defending the truth Athan. the bishops of his part appeared but finding the coūcel very partial protested against thē appealed frō thē in these words Because we see many things spitefully cōtriued against vs much wrōg offred the catholik church vnder our names we be forced to request that the debating of our maters may be kept for the princes most excellēt person we can not bear the drifts iniuries of our enimies therfore require the cause to be referred to the most religious deuout emperor before whō we shal be sufferd to stād in our own defēces plead the right of the church Yet to preuēt the worst Athan. himself fled to Constant. beseeching him to send for the bishops examine their acts
endure for Simonie non residence wrongfull excommunication playing at tables resorting to spectacles ordering any Clerke without diligent examination or contrarie to the Princes ecclesiastical lawes in which cases Iustinian commandeth them to bee SVSPENDED EXCOMMVNICATED DEPOSED as the fault meriteth and his edict appointeth It was then no newes for a Prince to say Diuers complaints haue beene brought vs against Clerks Monks and many Bishops that some leade not their liues according to the sacred Canons others can not the publike praiers which should be sayd at the sacred oblation and baptisme we therefore recounting the iudgement of God with our selues HAVE COMMAVNDED THAT IN EVERY MATTER THVS DETECTED LAWFVLL INQVISITION AND CORRECTION PROCEEDE comprising in this edict those things that were before skattered in sundry constitutions touching the most religious Bishops Clerkes and Monkes with such punishments added as wee rhought expedient And againe OVR CHIEFEST CARE IS FOR THE TRVETH OF GODS DOCTRINE AND SEEMELY CONVERSATION OF THE CLERGIE THE THINGS THEN WHICH WE HAVE DECREED AND MAKE FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE SACRED ORDER AND STATE CONSONANT TO THE TENOR OF HOLY RVLES LET THE MOST GODLY PATRIARKES OF EVERY DIOCESSE THE METROPOLITANES AND RIGHT REVEREND BISHOPS AND CLERKES KEEPE FOR EVER HEREAFTER INVYOLABLE THE BREAKER OF THEM SHALBE SVRE TO BE SEQVESTRED VTTERLY FROM GOD AND EXCLVDED FROM HIS PRIESTLY FVNCTION Licencing all men of what sort or calling soeuer they bee that perceiue the least point of these our Lawes transgressed to denounce and infourme the same to our highnes that wee which following the sacred rules and Apostolike tradition haue commaunded these thinges may reuenge such offendours as they well deserue Farther hee sayth Our purpose in this present Lawe is next after those matters which wee haue disposed of the most holy Bishoppes and reuerend Clerkes to set a good order in monasticall discipline for so much as there is no kinde of thing exempted from the Princes inquisition which hath receiued from God a common regiment and soueraintie ouer all men and these things which concerne God must bee preserued from corruption by the sacred Prelates and ciuill Magistrates but most of all by our Maiestie which vse not to neglect any diuine causes but labour by all meanes that our common wealth by the fauour of the great God and our Sauiour Christ towardes men may reape the fruite of that purenes and integritie which Clerkes Monkes and Bishoppes from the highest to the lowest shall shewe foorth in keeping the sacred Canons our lawes prouided in that behalfe which constitutions by this our decree wee strengthen a fresh and ratifie Put on your spectakles and see whether Iustinian do not take vppon him to gouerne the doctrine and discipline of the Church the conuersation of Clerkes Monkes and Priestes and to commaunde Prelates and Patriarkes in the celebration of sacraments conuocation of Synodes election and confirmation of Bishoppes ordering of Clerkes and such like functions except our eyesight fayle vs wholy spirituall and in the iudgement of your neerest friends acknowledged for causes ecclesiasticall I will omitte what Iustinian enacted touching mariages diuorces legacies funerals incests adulteries and such like then pertinent to the Princes power and sworde nowe claymed by your holy father for a surplussage to causes ecclesiasticall and with that seely shift conueyed out of Princes handes who first vppon fauour and opinion of holynes and wisedome in Bishoppes gaue them leaue to meddle with such matters I will omitte I say that and descende to the Lawes of Charles the great Emperour of the West partes eight hundreth yeeres after Christ which Ansegisus gathered together within thirteene yeeres of the death of the sayde Charles In his preface of those Lawes thus speaketh that wise Prince Considering the passing goodnes of Christ our Lord towardes vs and our people and howe needefull it is not onely to giue thankes to God incessantly with heart and mouth but also with good endeuours continually to set foorth his honour and praise c. Therefore O you Pastours of Christes Church and teachers of his flocke Haue wee directed Commissioners vnto you that shall ioyne with you to redresse those thinges which neede reformation in our name and by vertue of our authoritie and to this ende wee haue here annexed certaine briefe chapters of Canonicall or ecclesiasticall institutions such as we thought meetest Let no man iudge this our admonition to godlines to bee presumptuous Whereby wee seeke to correct thinges amisse to cutte off superfluities and leade men to that which is right but rather receiue it with a charitable mynde For in the booke of kinges wee reade what paynes godly Iosias tooke to bring the kingdome giuen him of GOD to the true worship of the same God by visiting correcting and instructing them not that wee compare our selues with his sanctitie but that we should alwayes imitate such examples of the godly We see the reason why these Lawes were published and commissioners sent from the Prince to put them in execution now let vs examine the Lawes themselues and marke what causes they chiefely concerne Peruse the booke you will on my woord expect no farther proofe that Princes had then to doe with persons and causes ecclesiasticall If your leasure serue you not by these fewe which I will report you may coniecture the rest The first seuen and fiftie Canons are borowed out of such generall and prouinciall Councels as Charles best liked for example That no man excommunicated in one place shall bee taken to the communion in an other place That when any Clerk is ordered his faith and life bee first exactly tried That no strange Clerke bee receaued or ordered without letters of commendation and licence from his owne Bishop That no seruant bee made Clerk or Moncke without his masters consent That no man bee made Priest vnder thirtie yeares of age neither then at randon but appointed and fastned to a certaine cure That no Bishop meddle with giuing orders in an other mans diocesse That no Bishop veele any widoes at all nor maydens vnder the age of twentie and fiue That the Bishop of each Prouince and the Metropolitane meete yerely twise in Councel for causes of the Church That Priests when they say their masses shall also communicate That only the bookes canonical shall bee read in the Church That the false names of Martyres and vncertaine memories of Sainctes bee not obserued That Sunday bee kept from euening on Saturday till euening the next day with other such constitutions prescribing a direct order to Bishoppes Priestes and Monkes for ecclesiasticall causes Phi. These bee Canons of former Councels Theo. True but selected and deliuered by Charles to those visitours which he sent with his authoritie to refourme the Church and the rest that followe to the number of an hundred and fiue chapters did Charles frame by conference with learned and godly men at
submitteth himselfe to the Princes commissioners and offereth to amend all that is amisse by the princes iudgement This lowly submission importeth an euident subiection Phi. It was a dispensation of the Popes humilitie not any part of his bounden duetie thus to doe Theo. So Gratian the compiler of your decrees falueth the matter which is as much as if you sayde the Pope by right might haue commaunded the Prince but in a merie moode for once to make sport he would needes bee iudged and ordered by the Prince Is not this a proper kind of diuinitie when the Pope protesteth his obedience to the Princes power and lawes to say the Pope speaketh in iest his wordes are but a tricke of voluntarie which he may recall or refuse when hee will If such vnlearned irreligious and vnsavory shiftes may serue for good answeres you may soone defend what religion you lift It is a very short and easie methode to be rid of all examples and histories to say they did so but it was more than needed or should haue beene done Phi. In temporall matters it might be the Pope was subiect to the Princes power but not in spirituall Theo. No man can bee both a subiect and a superiour to the Princes power A subiect is alwayes a subiect that is at al times to bee commaunded and punished by the magistrate neuer to command or punish the Magistrate Againe Leo referreth him selfe in all thinges both great and small to the Princes pleasure and censure now a subiect in all thinges is superiour in nothing yet left you shoulde cauill that ecclesiasticall causes are not expresty mentioned in this place you shall see that the Bishoppes of Rome for eight hundred yeeres and aboue were suppliants and seruants not of curtesie but of duetie to Christian Emperours and obeyed their ecclesiasticall Lawes and edicts and were commaunded and ouerruled by them in the regiment of the Church as the stories that follow shall plainely declare Donatus and his fellowes pretending that Cecilianus could not be Bishop of Carthage for many crimes falsely surmised and specially for that Felix which layed handes on him had as they sayde betrayed or burnt the scriptures not onely refused his communion and procured his condemnation in a Prouinciall Synode by lxx Africane Bishoppes but in a tumult erected an other Bishoppe besides him diuided the people from him and offering a bill of complaint against him to the Proconsull of Africke made a request to Constantine that hee woulde giue them iudges to decide the matter The Prince carefull to keepe the Church in peace did authorize Meltiades Bishoppe of Rome Marcus a Clergieman of the same Citie but as then no Bishop Rheticius Maternus and Maximus three Bishoppes of Fraunce to consider their allegations and determine the strife Where sentence passing with Cecilianus the contrarie part appealed from the commissioners to the Prince This appeale Constantine might haue iustly reiected as made from his owne delegates but seeking all meanes to pacifie the schisme commanded a greater number of their Bishoppes to meete together at Arle in France there to sit in Councell a fresh about the hearing and ending of this quarell from whome for that they likewise concluded Cecilianus to be right Bishop of Carthage the Donatists appealed as they had done from the first adding nowe that if Cecilianus himselfe were cleare yet so long as Felix was guiltie which ordered and confirmed him his election must needes bee voyde The patient and mild Emperour seeing them twise conuicted and not contented but still murmuring against the Bishoppes as partiall and dayly molesting his eares with importunate suite neuer troubled Bishoppe or Councell with the clearing of Felix but appointed Aelianus a ciuill Magistrate to search out the trueth of these later accusations in a temporall Court where Felix after diligent examination was iudicially discharged and acquitted from all suspition of that sacrilegious abusing the woorde of God Then were both sides called before Constantine to receiue iudgement at his handes without appeale who taking paynes in his owne Person to sit iudge betweene them and exactly weighing what either part could say gaue sentence with Cecilianus against Donatus making therewithall a most sharpe Lawe to punish the Donatists if they persisted in their wilfulnes as dissentious schismatikes from the Church of Christ which rigour the Christian Emperours that followed did rather increase than diminish This I thought good to report out of Eusebius Optatus and Austen somewhat the larger that the circumstaunces being fully knowen the conclusion might the better bee perceiued I trust you will not denie but the strife betweene Cecilianus and Donatus consisted both of persons and causes ecclesiasticall The parties accused and accusing were Bishoppes the faultes obiected were iust impediments of episcopall dignitie the matters in doubt were the committing and partaking of sacrilege the right election of Bishoppes the lawfull deposing of them by Synodes the needefull communion with them or schismaticall dissention from them No causes can possiblely touch the regiment of Christes Church neerer than these wel then in these causes who was supreme Meltiades or Constantine The bishop of Rome or the Emperour The prince sent commission to the Pope ioyned other collegues with him receiued an appeale from him gaue second iudges after him and in his owne person pronounced finall sentence without him the least of these facts proueth the prince superiour to the Pope and all these did that famous Emperour and his doings in this case were very well lyked and accepted in the Church of Christ. Which of these things wil you now encounter Did not Cōstantine authorize Meltiades His commission is yet extant to Meltiades Bishoppe of Rome and Marcus with these words My pleasure is that Cecilianus with ten Bishops of his accusers and other tenne of his fauourers come to Rome there to be heard before you both ioyning with you Rheticius Maternus and Marinus your collegues whom purposely for this matter I haue willed with speede to repaire vnto you S. Austen debating with the Donatists what iust exceptions they could take to so many sentences giuen against them moueth this doubt maketh this answere Should not thinke you Meltiades Bishop of Rome with his collegues haue vsurped that iudgement which lxx Africane Bishops had ended What that he did not vsurpe For the Emperour vpon motion made by you sent Bishops to sit with him as iudges and to rule that matter in euery point as iustice should leade them This we proue by the Donatists supplication and the Princes owne wordes If S. Austen defend the Bishoppe of Rome from vsurping in this case by producing vrging a commission from the prince then apparētly both the pope was authorized by y◠princes power to giue iudgemēt in a matter ecclesiastical had bin but for that warrant an vsurper Phi. S. Austen sayth that Constantine durst not be iudge of a Bishops cause Theo. At the first hee
Father or Councell for 800. yeares that proueth the Pope superiour to the Prince Bring somwhat to that end or else say you can not and I am answered Phi. I proue the church superior to the Prince which is enough to confute the supreme power that you giue to Princes Theo. And what for the Pope Shall he be superiour to Princes or no Phi. We wil talke of that an other time we be now reasoning of the church which I trust you will grant to be superiour to Princes God saide to the Church The nation and kingdom that will not serue thee shall perish And kinges shall serue thee Theo. This is right the trade of your Apologie to pretende the church and meane the Pope You sawe you were neuer able to proue the Popes vsurped power ouer Princes and therefore you thought it best to put a visarde of the Church vppon the Popes face and to bring him in that sort disguised to the stage to deceiue the simple with the sounde and shewe of the Church And for that cause your fourth chapter neuer nameth the Pope but stil vrgeth The regiment of the church The iudgement of the church The churches tribunall conuerted kingdomes must serue the church and euerie where the church the church and when the Church is confessed to bee superiour to Princes you set vppe the Pope as heade of the Church to take from her all the superioritie power and authoritie which before you claymed for her and so you make the Church but a cloke-bagge to carrie the Popes titles after him but staie your wisedomes the Church may bee superiour and yet the Pope subiect to Princes Kinges may serue the Church and yet commaund your holie father and his gymmoes the parish Priestes of Rome for their turning winding euery way iustly called Cardinals Phi. Can Princes bee supreme and the church their superiour Theo. Why not Phi. If any thing bee superiour Princes bee not supreme Theo. That I denie The Scriptures bee superiour to Princes and yet they supreme the Sacramentes bee likewise aboue them and yet that hindereth not their supremacie Truth Grace Faith Prayer and other Ghostlie vertues bee higher than all earthly states and all this notwithstanding Princes may bee supreme gouernours of their kingdomes and Countries Phi. You cauill nowe you shoulde compare persons with persons and not thinges with persons there may bee thinges aboue Princes and yet they supreme but if anie persons bee superiour then can they not bee supreme Theo. No The Sainctes in heauen and Angels of God bee persons superiour to Princes and yet may Princes bee supreme Phi. Why Theophilus these bee wrangling quiddities for shame leaue them The Sainctes bee superiour in perfection and dignitie but not in externall vocation and authoritie Theo. I like that you saie but if you looke backe you shall see Philander that you giue iudgement against your selfe Phi. Against my selfe Why so Theo. The Church is superiour to Princes for those very respectes which I nowe repeated First because the Saincts in heauen which are part of the church in happines perfection and dignitie bee many degrees aboue worldely states Secondly though the members of the Church bee subiect and obedient to Princes yet the thinges contayned in the Church and bestowed on the Church by God him-selfe I meane the light of his worde the working of his Sacramentes the giftes of his grace and fruites of his spirite bee farre superiour to all Princes Nowe view your consequent The Church in respect of her members in heauen and graces on earth is aboue the Prince ergo the Prince is not supreme but subiect to the Pope This is worse than wrangling You confound things and persons heauen and earth God and man to beare out the Popes pride Phi. You stretch the name of the church whither you list Theo. I may better stretch it to these thinges which I specifie than you restraine it to one onelie man as you doe But why doe I stretch the church farther than I should The Sainctes in heauen bee they not members of the church Phi. They bee membees of the church which is in heauen Theo. And the church in heauen is it an other church from this on earth or the same with it Phi. I thinke it bee the same Theo. You must not goe by thoughtes Sainct Paul saith You are of the same citie with the Sainctes and Ierusalem which is aboue is no straunger to vs but the mother of vs all Cum ipsis Angelis sumus vna ciuitas Dei cuius pars in nobis peregrinatur pars in illis opitulatur Wee saith Austen are one and the same citie of God with the Angels whereof part wandereth on earth in vs part in them assisteth vs. And againe The true Sion and true Ierusalem is euerlasting in heauen which is the mother of vs all She hath begotten vs shee hath nurced vs in part a stranger on earth in a greater part remaining in heauen For the soules of the godly that be dead be not seuered from the church which euen now is the kingdome of Christ. Certaynely Christ hath but one bodie which is his church and of that body since the Sainctes be the greater and worthier part they must bee counted of the same Church with vs. Phi. I stick not at that so much as at the next where you make the word and Sacramentes togither with their effectes and fruites to be parts of the church Theo. I do not say they be members of the Church but thinges required in the church without the which we can neither become nor continue the members of Christ. In a naturall bodie the spirits and faculties be no members yet without them the members haue neither life motion sense nor action So in the mysticall bodie of Christ the members be men but the meanes and helpes to make vs and keepe vs the members of Christ are the word and Sacraments without the which we can neither be planted quickned nor nourished in Christ. For the members be dead if they liue not by faith if they grow not by grace if they cleaue not by loue to their heade and moue at his will by obedience And therefore these thinges though they bee not members yet they bee ioyntes and sinewes vaines and vessels that giue life groeth strength and state to the bodie of Christ which is his church and may iustly bee called the principall powers or partes of his bodie Phi. Powers if you will but not partes Theo. As though the powers of the soule were not partes of the soule Phi. Not properly partes but powers and faculties Theo. What call you partes Phi. Whereof the whole consisteth Theo. And since without these there can be no Church ergo these be partes of the church Phi. You take partes very largely Theo. No larger than I should The foundation of the house is it not a part of the house Phi. Yes a chiefe
as by the seede of her husbande Thou wast conceiued in that thou receiuedst the name of Christ and the Lorde to make his wisedome milke for vs came clothed with flesh vnto vs. Shee is a most true mother which openeth her bosome to all nations when they shall bee newe borne and offereth her teates when they are newe borne The teeth cheekes and lippes of this spouse wee vnderstande sayth Ambrose to bee the vertues of the soule Yea the Church is life and as Paul sayth the Pillour of trueth These speeches and others that might bee alleaged shewe the Church to bee resembled to a woman and trueth sayth life grace and such like giftes of Godâ— bee counted not onely the garments but euen the bowels and partes of the Church And therefore the name of the Church sometimes imployeth as well the thinges that bee in the Church as the persons that bee of the Church which was the third point that I noted Phi. These speeches bee figuratiue Theo. I did not seeke for the proprietie but the vse of the woord and yet in proper speach persons without these thinges are not the Church and in the very definition of the Church as well thinges as persons bee comprised Phi. In deede persons enduen with those giftes and graces of God that bee needefull for eternall life are properly the Church but thinges without Persons are not the Church Theo. I do not exclude Persons but include those thinges which cause the Persons to bee members of the Church Phi. I will not much impugne that Theo. Returne then to the woordes of Ambrose which occasioned me to make this distinction A good Emperour is not aboue the church Not aboue the Church vniuersal for that consisteth of men Angels aboue whom princes be not Neither aboue the Church militant in earth for that containeth all the faithfull of all ages and Countries ouer whom there can bee no Prince but onely Christ. Phi. And what For the Church dispersed through the Romane Empire in the time of S. Ambrose was the Prince aboue it or no Theo. You must here distinguish the thinges proposed in the Church from the Persons that were members of the Church The Persons both Laymen and Clerks by Gods lawe were the Princes subiects the thinges comprised in the Church and by God himselfe committed to the Church because they were Gods coulde bee subiect to the power and will of no mortall creature Pope nor Prince Phi. Say that againe Theo. In shorter termes the Prince was aboue the Persons in the Church but not aboue the thinges in the Church Phi. Aboue the Persons but not aboue the thinges in the Church What thinges meane you Theo. Those thinges which God commaundeth in his Church and requireth of his Church Phi. I vnderstande you not Theo. Understande you our sauiour when hee sayth Giue vnto God the things which bee Gods Phi. Hee meaneth as I take it faith deuotion holynes repentance patience obedience and such like christian dueties and vertues Theo. You say well these bee thinges which Princes haue no right to clayme nor power to rule They belong onely to God To these I adde the meanes whereby God worketh these thinges in his church to witte the woord and Sacraments ouer these thinges wee graunt Princes haue no power Phi. S. Ambrose sayth not ouer the Church Theo. That is not ouer the thinges which God hath setled in his church but ouer the Persons Princes haue power Phi. What a shift of descant that is Theo. Call you that a shift which I before confirmed and you confessed to bee true Phi. What did you confirme Theo. That Princes haue power by Gods appointment ouer al men I brought you Tertullian Chrysostome Iustinian Gregorie and Ambrose himself witnessing that Princes had power ouer al men S. Paul auoucheth the same Let euery soule be subiect to their power It is no shift it is trueth that our sauiour saith kings of nations beare rule ouer them that is ouer their subiects You must either take the names of Princes and Gouernours from them or els yeeld them Countries and people to be subiect vnder them Phi. I doe so Theo. Then Princes haue power ouer all men that is ouer all Persons Phi. Ouer all persons but not ouer the Church Theo. What doe you nowe but make the same distinction your selfe which before you refused at my handes Ouer all persons they haue power ouer the Church they haue not ergo the Church is not here taken for persons And it must needes be taken either for the persons or things for the persons it is not ergo for the thinges and so by your confession mine answere standeth good that Princes haue power ouer the persons but not ouer the things in the Church And so saith S. Ambrose Ea quae diuina imperatoriae potestati non esse subiecta The thinges that be Gods be not subiect to the Emperours power though the Emperour had power ouer all Persons as Ambrose himselfe affirmeth Phi. Shall S. Ambrose strike the stroke in this case Theo. The stroke is alreadie giuen by the sacred scriptures by the publike Lawes and auncient stories of the primatiue Church and yet in this point wee reiect not the iudgement of S. Ambrose Phi. S. Ambrose is cleane against your opinion that Princes should bee gouernours in causes ecclesiastical To the yonger Valentinian the Emperour thus he answereth Vexe not thy selfe so farre O Emperour to thinke that thy Emperiall right perteyneth to diuine thinges exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure For it is written Giue to Cesar that which is Cesars and to God that which belongeth vnto God The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest Againe the same holy Doctor When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishoppes Shall wee bend by flatterie so farre that forgetting the right of our Priesthood we shoulde yeelde vp to others that which God hath commended vnto vs And recounting the whole course of holy scriptures and all times past who can deny but that in the cause of faith in the cause of faith I say Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishoppes Theo. Omit the circumstances and causes that moued Ambrose thus to write which bee the wordes you take most hold of Phi. These Thy Emperiall right pertayneth not to diuine thinges The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest In a cause of faith Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishops Theo. You helpe the matter forward with false translating and nypping the wordes and yet they proue nothing against vs. In steede of vt putes te in ea quae diuina sunt imperiale aliquod ius habere Do not think thy selfe to haue an Emperiall right ouer those things which bee Gods or ouer diuine thinges you say cunningly Do not thinke thy Emperiall right pertayneth to diuine thinges
euident that the christian Emperours did and might dispose both of Bishops and Churches therfore Ambrose could not be of that mind that princes by their lawes might not put Bishops from their Churches without their consents but hee brought this as a reason why the Prince at his pleasure without lawe might not commaund and himselfe though the Prince commanded might not consent Phi. You shift off S. Ambrose but Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius wil not be so shifted Of Constantius the Arrian Emperour S. Athanasius saith What hath he left for Antichrist for yet againe in place of Ecclesiasticall cognition hee hath appointed his palace the iudiciall seate of such causes made him selfe the chiefe iudge arbiter of our controuersies And who seeing him to make him selfe the ruler of Bishops and president of spiritual iudgements would not iustly deeme him to bee that very abomination of desolation foretold by Daniel And in an other place of the same work When was it euer heard since the beginning that the Churches iudgement did depend of the Emperours authoritie Or who euer accepted that for lawfull iudgement The renoumed Osius writeth to the same Emperour Medle not O Emperour in causes ecclesiasticall nor do thou coÌ„mand vs in this kinde but leaue such thinges to vs rather God hath giuen thee the Empire but to vs the church At the same time to the same Emperour thus saith Leontius the Martyr I maruel that thy vocation being for other things thou medlest with these matters Thy charge is of ciuil Martiall affaires only and yet thou wilt needes be president of ccclesiastical causes S. Hilarie also to the same Emperour writeth thus We beseech thy clemencie to prouide that charge to be giuen to all iudges of Prouinces that hereafter they presume not nor vsurpe the hearing of Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. You do well to put them together they all spake of one man ment one matter reprouing Constantius the Arian Emperour and that worthily for his tyrannous and violent oppressing the Church of Christ against al trueth and reason Phi. You would faine giue these fathers the slip as though Constantius were reproued by them not for intermedling with causes ecclesiasticall but for his iniurious and outragious ouerruling those matters what a mockerie that were Theo. Mocke not your selues and of our answere let the world iudge Phi. What is it Theo. We say these fathers did not reproue that in Constantius which the whole Church of Christ before them and after them for eight hundered yeres and vpward obeyed embraced and honoured in her Christian Catholike princes namely Constantine Gratian Theodosius Honorius Martian Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and others Phi. Who saith they did Theo. Doe you graunt they did not Phi. What if we doe Theo. Speake expresly whether you graunt it or no. Phi. We graunt they did not Theo. Ergo these places of Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius doe not impugne that which we defend but only traduce Constantius for his wilful and headie subuerting the faith and infringing the Canons without all regard of trueth or equitie They refute not his authority to commaund for trueth and punish error which other Princes had and vsed with the contentation and commendation of all good men but they dissuade him from the tyranny which hee shewed in confounding both the doctrine and discipline of the church to serue his humor and wrecke his anger on those that would not yeeld to his heresie Phi. You may not scape so we must haue a direct answer to the words which we bring Theo. I neede not answere them till you vrge them Phi. As for vrging that shall not want Theo. If I faile in answering take you the aduantage Phi. Be sure I will First then Constantius was reproued by S. Athanasius for appointing his Palace to bee the tribunal seat of ecclesiastical causes and making himselfe the chiefe iudge and arbiter of those controuersies Theo. We do not make Princes chiefe iudges and arbiters of ecclesiasticall controuersies Ergo these wordes of Athanasius disproue not our assertion Phi. Do you not make them Rulers of Bishops and presidents of spiritual iudgements which is that very abhomination of desolation foretold by Daniel Theo. Doe not you purposely clippe the text to drawe the words from their right meaning to your malicious intent which is a ready way to deface the trueth and vphould the kingdome of Antichrist For where the words are Quis videns eum in decerneÌ„do PrincipeÌ„ se facere EpiscoporuÌ„ praesidere iudicijs ecclesiasticis non merito dicat c. who seeing him to make himselfe the ruler of Bishops and the ringleader of ecclesiastical iudgements in decernendo what they shall determine may not iustly pronounce him to be that abomination of desolation which Daniel foretold you strike out cleane in decernendo In iudgeing or determining and would haue it a note of Antichrist to be a ruler of Bishops Againe where The vnderstanding of that which spoken must bee fet from the causes that moued meÌ„ to speake as Hilarie wel admonisheth you let passe al that Athanasius hath said in that long epistle for the confirmation of this sentence and explication of himselfe and â—â—ll out a word or two that may bee diuersly taken and thinke with a phrase of speach both doubtfull and generall to surprise a settled and certaine trueth Princes should not be rulers of Bishops if by this you meane that Princes shoulde not bee superiour magistrates to commaunde Bishops that which is good and forbid them that which is euill yea to punish them as well for ecclesiasticall as cyuill disorders Athanasius was neuer of that mynde his owne wordes expounding S. Pauls Epistle to the Romanes if those be his woorkes that carie his name are cleare to the contrarie Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers He teacheth al men sayth Athanasius whether it bee Priest Monke or Apostle to submit themselues to princes or rulers And speaking of himselfe when hee was commaunded to conferre with Arius not the first and famous heretike but an other of that name and tyme concerning matters of fayth Who sayth he is so besides his wittes that hee dare refuse the Princes precept His deedes are as manifest for when the Councel of Tyrus would haue proceeded against him for his crimes and causes ecclesiastical the Cotholike Bishoppes of Egypt that tooke part with him made their appeale to the Prince as I shewed you before and Athanasius in person fled to Constantine and desired the Synode to bee sent for and his cause to bee hearde before the Emperour What Athanasius liked in himselfe he might not mislike in others what hee thought to bee lawfull in the father hee could not thinke vnlawfull in the sonne hee doeth not now refell that in woordes which hee before approued in deedes you must so conster his sayings as they may stand with his doings or
not admit which they said against others Hee euer doth that which the Arrians woulde haue and they againe saie that which hee liketh And whereas the Bishops in those dayes were wont to be lawfully chosen by the people of the place and sufficiently examined and allowed by other Bishops adioyning and openly created in the church Constantius in steede of the church would haue his palace succeed and for the multitude of people and right of assemblies to elect hee commaunded three Eunuches to bee present and three of his spies or prolers for you can not call them Bishops that they sixe in his palace might create one Felix a Bishop And noting what manner of Bishops the Emperour and his Eunuches made hee saith In illorum locum iuuenes libidinosos Ethnicos ne catechismo quidem imbutos necnon digamos de maximis criminibus malè audientes modò aurum darent veluti emptores è foro ad Episcopatus summisere They sent in their places that were banished yong men leacherous persons Ethnickes not so much as taught the first principles of faith hauing two wifes and spotted with enormous crimes so they would giue mony as cheepe-men out of a market The furious violence that was vsed in the time of Constantius to driue men to participate with Arrians not onely by imprisonmentes and banishmentes but by chaining whipping scalding with fire trampling vnder feete stoning choking and secret murdering such as refused without all respect of vocation age or sexe was so lamentable that no christian hart can read it without teares and it is so largely described and pithily disproued by Hilarie and Athanasius that no man except he be blinder than a bitle can doubt whether Constantius were a wilfull tyrant in the church of God or no. Peruse the places and you shall find proofes enough of that which I say I proclaime saith Hilarie that to thee Constantius which I woulde to Nero Decius and Maximinian thou fightest against God thou ragest against the Church thou doest persecute the Sainctes thou hatest the Preachers of Christ and ouerthrowest Religion a tyrant not in humane but in diuine thinges a newe kinde of enemie to Christ the forerunner of Antichrist I repeate nothing rather than thy doings in the Church because I would open no other tyrannie but that which thou vsest against God And Athanasius shewing the reasons why hee calleth Constantius Antichrist Who seeing or hearing saith he these thinges who considering the rage of these wicked ones and so great iniustice would not deepelie sigh at it Who hereafter will dare to call Constantius a Christian and not rather the image of Antichrist For which of Antichristes markes doth hee lacke Or what cause is there why Constantius should not in euerie respect bee counted Antichrist Haue not the Arrians and Ethnickes as it were by his precept vsed their sacrifices and blasphemies against Christ in the great church at Caesarium in Aegypt As a Giant he exalteth himselfe against the most high and hath inuented waies to change the◠Lawe of God breaking the ordinances of Christ and his Apostles and inuerting the customes of the church And since he is cloathed with Christianitie and entereth into holy places there standing and wasting the churches Abrogating the Canons and by force compelling that his pleasure may preuaile who at any time will affirme that these dayes are peaceable to christians and not rather that this is a persecution and such a persecution as was neuer before and no man after shall make the like except that sonne of perdition which is the true Antichrist Howe thinke you did not these Fathers reproue Constantius for changeing the faith oppressing Synods corrupting iudgementes infringing the Canons barbarons enforcing the christians and shortly for subiecting all to his will and violence Phi. I knowe they make mention of these things but yet they reproue him generally for intermedling with Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. I hope they reproued him for that he did Phi. The case is cleare they coulde not reproue him for that hee did not Theo. These things which I last rehearsed Constantius did as I proue by their witnesse that chiefly rebuked him ergo Constantius was reproued of Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius for these thinges that is for playing the tyrant in diuine matters or as you call them in causes Ecclesiasticall Phi. But Osius saith Medle not O Emperour in causes Ecclesiastical nor do thou commaund vs in that kind but leaue such things to vs rather Theo. You were answered before but that you wil neuer be satisfied Osius dissuadeth Constantius from vsing his absolute power obstinate wil in those things that were then in question betwixt the Christians Arians He saw the manifolde and excessiue disorders of Constantius in forcing Synodes of Bishops by terror and violence to bow at his becke in making his palace a consistorie for their causes and there iudging what his Eunuches would in dissoluing the ordinances of Christ and his Apostles and doing all thinges against the Rules of the church and therefore had good cause to saie Ne te misceas ecclesiasticis neque nobis in hoc genere praecipe sed potius ea a nobis disce Enterpose not thy selfe as thou doest O Emperour in Ecclesiasticall matters neither commaund vs in this kinde but learne such things rather of vs and not as you say leaue such things rather to vs. God hath cōmitted the Empire to thee to vs the things of the church as he that enuieth thine Empire contradicteth the ordinance of God so take thou heede least drawing vnto thy selfe the things of the church thou be guilty of great sinne It is written Giue vnto Caesar that which is Caesars vnto God that which is Gods It is therefore neither lawfull for vs to holde a kingdome on earth neither hast thou power O Prince ouer sacrifices sacred things These words put a difference between the function of Priestes Princes shew that neither may intrude with ech others charge which we confesse with a good wil. But as Priestes must teach truth and conuict error that is their office so princes must commaund for truth and punish error because publike authoritie to commaund and punish is not the Priestes but the Princes right where-with Priestes must not meddle Phi. Yet the Prince must learne at the Priestes hande which is truth and which error Theo. If the Priest teach truth and the Prince reiect it the Prince shal answere to God for the cōtempt of truth but if the priest teach error in steed of truth a godly prince hath lawful power to banish the doctrine punish the teacher Phi. And if the Prince saie that truth is error error is truth shall truth be banished and the Priest punished vpon the Princes saying Theo. And what if the Priest saie that light is darkenesse and darkenesse light shall Princes be excused before God for
displacing the truth and maintaining falsehood vpon the Priestes warrant Phi. Let Princes ioyne themselues to the Church they can not mistake Theo. Shal they trust euery sect that claimeth to be the church or must they learn to know the true church of Christ from the counterfait Phi. The Church is soone knowen Theo. Not so soone as you thinke But we slip from our matter How Princes must be directed to light on truth is an other and the next question we be now discussing their authoritie to commaund for truth not their abilitie to discerne the truth and as far as I coniecture by your speaches you be loth to graunt that Princes may defende or assist the truth were it neuer so well knowen to bee the vndoubted truth of Christes church Phi. Yes we graunt they should defend the faith assist the church but we would haue them not go beyonde their calling Theo. No more woulde wee but the wordes of Osius as you presse them infer that Princes may not so much as meddle with defending the faith or assisting the church of Christ by their Princely power which euerteth as well your opinioÌ„ as ours If you will haue these wordes Meddle not in causes Ecclesiasticall to be taken as they lie without restriction ergo Princes must not meddle neither in word nor deede with the defending nor impugning the faith or church of Christ. And this you see were no sober perswasion but a franticke conclusion wrested out of Osius wordes against his meaning against all truth and your owne confession Who in his right wittes will saie to kings take you no care who defendeth or impugneth the church of Christ in your realmes let it not pertaine to you who list to bee religious or sacriligious in your kingdoms The actes of Constantine the Lawes of Iustinian the chapters of Charles the stories of the church the Scriptures themselues do clearly conuince that the best and most famous Princes haue medled in Ecclesiasticall matters the office and oth of a Prince as anon you shall heare require the same your own assertion is that Princes ought to defend the faith and assist the church and that they can not doe without medling in Ecclesiasticall matters Now choose whether you will thwart the whole church of God and disproue your own doctrine or else limit the wordes of Osius as we do by the particulars that moued him to reproue Constantius for his immoderate presumption The generall is absurd and refuteth your intention as well as ours for you would haue Princes medle with the publishing assisting and executing of your pleasures and iudgementes and wee would haue them yeelde that seruice to Christ and his truth which you chalenge to your selues the limitation let it be what it will agreeable to the circumstances can not hurt vs. Medle not in causes Ecclesiasticall in such sort as thou doest which rebuketh his tyrannie medle not neither appoint vs what wee shall doe that is medle not with appointing and directing vs in these thinges but learne them rather of vs which represseth his insolencie Ne te misceas ecclesiasticis thrust not thy selfe into those thinges which belong to the Priestes and not to the Princes charge which is Osius owne distinction or else ne te misceas interpose not thy self that is thy resolute will and power to commaund compell vs to subscribe against Athanasius an innocent and to communicate with Arians condemned heretikes which were the two points that Constantius exacted of Osius All these constructions import that Constantius medled in that sort and with those thinges that he should not but they doe not exclude Princes from establishing the truth punishing sacrileges schisms and heresies which is medling with matters ecclesiasticall Phi. Leontius is as earnest against him as Osius I maruell saith hee to Constantius thy vocation being for other thinges thou medlest with these matters Thy charge is of ciuill and martiall affaires onely and yet thou wilt needes be president of Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. I maruell that professing to seeke a truth you be not ashamed to temper and alter your witnesses in this sort You cut off the first part that would expound the whole and the latter you wilfully corrupt to force it to your purpose The place of Suidas is this Constantius at a time sitting chiefe among the Bishops and going about to set them orders for their churches the most part receiued with applause and admiration whatsoeuer he saide affirming it to bee most excellently spoken Leontius helde his peace whom when the Emperour asked why doest thou onely of all the rest keepe silence I maruel saith Leontius that hauing charge for other thinges thou entrest into these matters and that being appointed ouer the campe and common-wealth thou prescribeth to the Bishops those thinges which belong onely to Bishops In steede of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you say Thy charge is of ciuill and martiall affaires onely that word onely is your owne and not your Authors and so be the rest that follow Thou wilt needes be president of Ecclesiastical causes Leontius saide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thou prescribest vnto Bishops those thinges which belong onely to Bishops This is no good dealing with Fathers to forge them and frame them to your fansies Leontius had some reason to say as he did Constantius was sitting chiefe among the Bishops prescribing them rules and orders for their churches in thinges that were both beyond his cunning and besides his calling What things those were the story doth not expresse but saith such things as belonged onely to Bishops Now why should not Leontius thinke that Princes in some thinges had no skill to direct Bishops neither might prescribe what rules and orders they listed for the churches of God And yet your author is not ancient that reporteth this Suidas liued twelue hundred yeares after Christ a man learned but of very late time and far from the credit of antiquitie Leontius himselfe if all be true that Suidas writeth of him had no more discretion than needed For when the Empresse sent to speake with him he returned this answere If thou wilt haue me come to thee let mee haue the reuerence due to Bishoppes that when I come in thou by and by descend from thy throne and reuerently meete me and submit thy head vnder my handes to receiue my blessing and then will I sit and thou shalt stand manerly by and not offer to sit till I bid thee If these couenantes please thee I wil come A high point of diuinitie that a subiect will not come to his Prince but on these saueâ—ie conditions Such fables you seeke to further your cause and yet all wil not helpe Phi. I trust you wil make more account of Hilarie whose words are these We beseech thy clemencie to prouide that charge be giuen to al iudges of prouinces that hereafter they presume not nor vsurp the hearing of
all the wordes of the lawe keeping and obseruing are not there referred to his priuate actions as a man but to his publike function as a king and therefore the king in these wordes receiued the charge and ouersight of the whole lawe that is an expresse commaundement from God to see the lawe kept and euerie part thereof obserued of all men within his Dominions and the breakers of it Prophetes Priestes and People to bee duely punished Nowe the Lawe contained all thinges that any way touched the true seruice and worshippe of God ergo the king had one and the selfe-same power and charge to commaund and punish as well for the preceptes of pietie as other pointes of policie neither did God fauour or prosper any of the kinges of Israell or Iudah but such as chiefly respected and carefully maintained the ordinances of Religion prescribed vnto them in Moses lawe In the times of the Prophetes saith S. Augustine all the kinges which in the people of God did not forbid and ouerthrow those thinges which were brought in against the commandementes of God are blamed and they that did prohibite and subuert such thinges are praysed aboue the rest God blessed Salomon with wisedome honour riches and peace so long as hee walked in the steppes of Dauid his father during the which time Salomon did dedicate the Temple in his owne person and cast out Abiathar from being Priest vnto the Lord and set Zadocke in his roome but when his heart once turned from God to builde places also for Idols and to suffer his outlandish wiues to burne incense and offeringes to their Gods then the Lorde was angrie with Salomon and stirred vppe aduersaries against him and threatned to rent his kingdom from him and to giue it to his seruant Asa tooke awaie the Altars of the strange Gods and the high places and brake downe the images and cut downe the groues and commaunded Iudah to seeke the Lord God of their fathers and tooke awaie out of all the cities of Iudah the high places and images therefore the kingdome was quiet before him And hee tooke an oth of all Iudah and Beniamin that Whosoeuer woulde not seeke the Lorde God of Israell shoulde be slaine whether hee were small or great man or woman and hee deposed Maachah his mother from her regencie because she had made an idoll Asa brake downe her idol and stamped it and burnt it and the Lord gaue him rest round about Iehosaphat his sonne walked in the first waies of Dauid and sought the Lord God of his father and walked in his commaundementes and therefore the Lord established the kingdome in his handes so that hee had riches and honour in aboundance In the thirde yeare of his raigne he sent his Princes that they should teach in the cities of Iudah and with them Leuites and Pristes and him selfe went through the people from Beer-sheba to Mount-Ephraim and brought them againe to the Lord God of their fathers In Ierusalem he sent of the Leuites and of the Priests and of the chiefe of the families of Israell for the iudgement and cause of the Lord. And he charged them saying Thus shal ye do in the feare of the Lord faithfully and with a perfect heart Thus shall ye do and trespasse not And behold Amariah the Priest shall be the chiefe among you for al the matters of the Lord and Zebadiah for all the kinges affaires and the Leuites shall be helpers vnto you Be strong and doe it And when the Moabites and Ammonites came against him he proclaimed a fast throughout all Iudah and stood in the congregation of Iudah and Ierusalem in the house of the Lord prayed in his owne person for all the people Ezechiah did vprightly in the sight of the Lord according to all that Dauid his father had done Hee opened the doores of the house of the Lorde and brought in the Priestes and the Leuites and saide vnto them heare mee yee Leuites sanctifie your selues and sanctifie the house of the Lord God of your fathers I purpose to make a couenant with the Lord God of Israell And they sanctified themselues according to the commaundement of the king And the king rose early and gathered the Princes of the citie and went vppe to the house of the Lord. And they brought sinne-offeringes and Ezechiah commaunded to offer the burnt offering vppon the Altar yea hee commaunded the Priestes the sonnes of Aaron to offer them And when they had made an end of offering Ezechiah the king the Princes commaunded the Leuites to praise the Lord with the wordes of Dauid and Asaph the Seer And Ezechiah sent to all Israell and Iudah also wrote letters to Ephraim and Manasses that they should come to the house of the Lord at Ierusalem to keepe the Passouer So the Postes went with letters by the commission of the king and his Princes throughout all Israel and Iudah and with the commandement of the king saying Yee children of Israell turne againe vnto the Lord God of Abraham Isaac and Israell And the hand of God was in Iudah so that he gaue them one heart to doe the commaundement of the King And Ezechiah appointed the courses of the Priestes and Leuites by their turnes euerie man according to his office for the burnt offeringes and peace offeringes to minister and giue thankes to praise in the gates of the tentes of the Lord. And in all the workes that hee beganne for the seruice of the house of God hee did it with all his heart and prospered Hee tooke away the high places and brake the Images and cutte downe the groues and brake in peeces the brasen Serpent which Moses had made for in those dayes the children of Israell did burne incense to it Manasses at the first wēt back built the high places which Ezechiah his father had broken down and set vp altars for Baalim made groues worshipped all the host of heauen serued them but after hee was taken by the king of Babylon put in fetters bound in chaines he hūbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers God was intreated of him and heard his prayer and brought him againe to Ierusalem into his kingdom Then hee tooke awaie the strange Gods and the image out of the house of the Lord and all the Altars that hee had built in the mount of the Lordes house and in Ierusalem and cast them out of the citie Also he repaired the Altar of the Lord and sacrificed thereon peace-offeringes and of thankes and commaunded Iudah to serue the Lord God of Israell Iosiah in the eight yeare of his raigne when he was yet a childe of sixeteene yeares began to seeke after the God of Dauid his father and in the twelfth yeare he began to purge Iudah Ierusalem from the high places the groues and the carued and
thousand yeeres after Christ. His lawes made by a Councel of his sages at Winchester are yet extant Heare some of them and then tell vs whether he did meddle with ecclesiastical causes or no. First he commaundeth all men to loue one God for euer aboue all things and one rule of Christian religion wel and aduisedly to hold Item he willeth al men to discharge their functions specially the seruants of god Bishops Abbots Moncks Canons Nonnes to do their duties to liue according to their rules to make their praiers night and day for all Christian folke Item hee biddeth and on Gods behalf forbiddeth that any Christian man take to wife a kinsewoman within six degrees or his wiues kinswoman or his Godmother at the font or a professed Nonne or a diuorced woman or keepe harlots or haue mo wiues than one and that in lawfull mariage Item that holy dayes and fasting dayes be kept Sunday be kept holy from saturday noone till munday morning Fayres Courts huntings and worldly woorkes on that day to bee forborne Item that all fasts which bee bidden ember dayes and Lent bee kept and the feasts of our Lady and the Apostles to bee fasted saue Philip and Iacob euery friday to bee fasted except it bee holy day and no man to fast from Easter to Whitsuntide or from Christmas to the Octaues of the Epiphanie vnlesse hee will or it bee enioyned him Item that euery Christian prepare himselfe for the communion thrise a yere And truely keepe his othe and promise and loue God with an inward reuerence and heare diligently heauenly teachers and oft and many times search and looke on Gods Law his dictrine Item that euery Christian man learne so much that hee can the true fayth and the true vnderstanding thereof namely the Lordes prayer and the Creede Or else not to haue Christian buriall neither to bee admitted whiles he lyueth to the Lordes table nor to vndertake for others at the font or before the Bishoppe Item that Bishops be preachers and teachers of Gods Lawe and carefull followers of goodwoorkes Item that Witches sorcerers Idolaters periures strumpets breakers of order and wedlocke be banished the realme with other Lawes for tythes temples Church rightes trial of Clergie men accused and such like dueties and offences ecclesiasticall Phi. You presse me with a number of places that proue nothing against vs directly Theo. Take the weakest of them and see whether it will not inferre that Princes medled with causes ecclesiasticall Phi. We knowe they medled with them but not as supreme Gouernours of them Theo. I brought these places to refell that generall obiection which you framed out of Osius Leontius and others that Princes shoulde not medle with causes ecclesiasticall If you graunt they did and might lawfully meddle with such matters as the places which I bring do proue then by your owne confession Constantius was not reproued for medling with religion for so did other godly Princes that were not reproued but highly commended and honoured in the Church of Christ but rather he was reproued as I answered you at the first for his insolent and tyrannous kind of medling with these matters which was as I shewed you for that in his owne person hauing no skil nor experience in such cases he would needes end and determine all thinges according to his owne fansie without respect of right or trueth and execute the same with terrible force and rigor exceeding the boundes of all Christian humanitie Againe these later examples as well as the former import that Princes had all this while full power to plant and establish the Christian fayth in their realmes and to punish ecclesiasticall transgressions and disorders in all sorts of subiects Lay men and Clerkes which is all that wee seeke for and all that wee meane when wee make them Gouernours of their dominions in all causes both ecclesiasticall and temporall and since you can neither deny the lawes Edicts nor acts of Princes which wee produce to this purpose nor possibly shift them why doe you wickedly slaunder and malitiously peruert that doctrine which you shall neuer soberly confute Phi. You will haue Princes to bee supreme Gouernours in these cases this is it that wee most impugne Theo. Well then let vs goe by degrees Doe you graunt them to bee Gouernours in those cases Phi. What meane you by Gouernours Theo. Such as haue lawfull authoritie from God to commaunde for trueth and punish error Phi. Doe you make them Iudges and Deciders of trueth Theo. No but receiuers and establishers of it Phi. Yea but who shall tell them which is trueth Theo. That is not this question When wee reason whether Princes may commaund for trueth and punish error you must not cauill about the meanes to knowe trueth from error but suppose that trueth were confessed and agreed on and in that case what may Princes doe for trueth Phi. Mary Sir if trueth were not in strife the doubt were not so great Theo. If I shoulde aske you whether Princes may reuenge murders and punish theftes were this an answere to say but howe shall they knowe what murder is and who bee theeues No more when wee demaunde what duetie Princes owe to God and his trueth shoulde you stand quarelling what trueth is or howe trueth may bee knowen The Princes duetie to God is one question which wee nowe handle the way to discerne trueth from error is an other which anon shall ensue when once this is ended but first let vs haue your direct answere whether Princes may commaunde for trueth or no Phi. For trueth they may but if they take quid pro quo they both hazard them selues and their whole Realmes and for that cause we say they must bee directed by Bishoppes Theo. You slide to the second question againe before the first bee finished Stay for that till this bee tried You graunt that Princes may command for trueth Do you not Phi. Wee doe Theo. When you say they may commaunde for trueth you doe not meane this or that poynt of trueth but indefinitely for trueth that is for all parts of trueth alike without the which God can not rightly bee serued Phi. They may commaunde for all as well as for part if the Bishoppes neede their helpe in all Theo. And commaunding is not onely the free permitting of those that wil but the moderate punishing of those that will not For punishment is the due desert of him that neglecteth the commaundement which he should obey So that he which may iustly commaund may iustly punish and hee that may lawfully punish may certainely commaund Howe say you then may Princes punish for matters of religion Phi. No doubt they may but when and where the Priest must guyde Theo. Who beareth the sworde The Priest or the Prince Phi. The Prince not the Priest Theo. And that sworde which the Prince beareth must doe the deede
Then I graunt that Princes may commaund that which is good and prohibite that which is euill in matters of religion Theo. You graunt it as an euident trueth confirmed by the Scriptures confessed by the fathers reported by the Stories of the Church and infinitly repeated in the lawes and edicts of religious and auncient Emperours made for persons and causes ecclesiasticall Or if you doubt any part of this diuision haue recourse to the textes places before produced and if euery part be not fully proued refuse the whole Phi. I see they did and therefore I resolue my selfe they might commaund in those cases Theo. As well Bishops as others Phi. God forbid Princes should commaund Bishops in matters of religion Haue you forgotten what Osius saide to Constantius Do not commaund vs in this kinde Theo. Osius and others were commaunded by Constantius to condemn Athanasius against all order of equitie and their certaine knowledge of his innocencie For Osius was present and president in the Councell of Sardica where the cause of Athanasius was fully debated by the consent of both Emperours East and West and his accusers proued to bee wicked slaunderers and in that case he might iustly say to Constantius Commaund vs not in this kind or in these things but learne the trueth of them rather at our hands that were by when these matters were narowly sifted and Athanasius clearly discharged from all that could be saide against him And what if Osius had not limited his wordes to these particular respects as in sight he doth shall one poore place thinke you beare downe al the proofes examples and authorities that I haue shewed you to the contrarie where religious and auncient Emperours appointed prescribed commanded Bishops yea the chiefest Bishops in matters of doctrine and discipline Constantine prescribed the bishops what was profitable for the Church and commaunded the Councel of Tyrus to discusse the crimes obiected to Athanasius and threatned to banish him if hee failed to present himselfe before the Synode to teach him what it was to withstand the precept of the chiefe ruler defending the trueth And vpon complaint made by Athanasius against them hee sent for the whole Councell with this commaundement You must all of you resort hither to shewe the reason of your doings and to giue accompt howe sincerely and soundly you haue iudged and that before mee whom you shall not denie to bee Gods syncere minister and when Arius should be restored this was the stile that he vsed to Athanasius knowing our pleasure We charge you to suffer such as will to returne to the Church and after commaunded Alexander Bishoppe of Constantinople to receiue Arius to the communion Valentinian the elder rehearsing the Nicene fayth in his Edict added Our power hath commaunded the same to bee preached And when the people of Millan cried to haue Ambrose for their Bishop though hee were not yet baptized the same prince commanded he should be presently baptized and consecrated notwithstanding the Canons were strong against it S. Paul seemeth not willing that a nouice should be a Bishoppe Gratian commanded the Arrian Bishoppes to bee thrust from their Churches and by vigor of his Princely Lawes depriued the Bishoppe that rebaptized of his Priestly function Theodosius the elder commanded the followers of his Edict Bishops and others to be counted Christian Catholikes and for the rest that beleeued otherwise he sayd Propelli iubemus wee commaunded them to bee driuen from their Churches and when Demophilus a Bishoppe refused to embrace the Nicene fayth the Emperour in his owne person replied then I commaunde thee to forgoe thy Churches It well be seemed a religious Prince sayth Gregorie to commaunde Bishoppes in such things And Charles appointing the Bishoppes what doctrine they should teach sayth This we charge and enioyne you the more precisely because we know that false teachers shall come in the later dayes And for the reformation of certaine abuses in the Church hee keepeth this tenor of speach Know ye sacred fathers this must be forbidden in your Diocesses The rest of the Lawes Edicts and precepts of Godly Princes for causes ecclesiastical which I before alleaged in no small number doe they not either comprehend al men and by consequent Bishoppes or else directly and expressely commaunded Bishoppes by name If those bee not sufficient you may shall haue more Theodosius the younger sent his letters to the Patriarke of Alexandria for the seconde Councel of Ephesus with these wordes Wee decree that the most holy Bishoppes meeting together this vayne doubt may bee discussed and the true Catholike fayth confirmed Therefore Your holines bringing with you tenne of the most reuerend Metropolitanes that bee within your prouince and tenne other holy Bishoppes well accompted of for their learning and conuersation shall hasten with all speede to meete the rest at Ephesus by the first of August next no Bishoppe besides the foresaide troubling the sacred Synode If any Bishoppe faile to come to the place prefixed at the time appointed hee shall haue no excuse neither with GOD nor with vs. As for Bishoppe Theodorete whom wee commaund to attend at home on his owne Church wee determine that hee shall bee none of your assemblie vnlesse the whole councell thinke good to haue him one But if any dissent We commaund that the Synode sit without him and dispatch those thinges which we haue appointed them And in his second letters to the same Bishoppe Because wee suspect that some of Nestorius fauourers will doe their best to be present at this Councell therefore wee thinke needefull to aduertise you and the whole Synode that not onely in respect of Theodorete but of all others which haue ought to do in your Councell we giue you the preeminence and chiefe authoritie And those that adde or diminish any thing to or from the Nicene fathers the fathers since that assembled at Ephesus Wee suffer them not to presume any thing in this sacred Synode but wil haue them subiected to your iudgement because wee haue appointed this Synode for that purpose In the very same councell hee likewise commaunded that those Bishoppes which not long before sate in iudgement vppon Eutiches should be present but silent and giue no voyces with the rest as iudges but expect the cōmon determination of all the rest of the sacred fathers And also commaunded that they should neither say neither do any thing in the sacred Councel vntill the right fayth were concluded Martian charged the 630. Bishops in the great Councell of Chalcedon that None of them should dare dispute of the natiuitie of our Lord and Sauiour Christ otherwise than the 318. fathers of Nice deliuered Eusebius Bishoppe of Dorilaeum at the same time put vp a supplication to Martian Valentinian the third against Dioscorus Patriarke of Alexandria with these wordes In most humble wise we beseech
your Maiesties that you will cōmand the reuerend Bishop Dioscorus to answere to those things that we lay to his charge for confirming a wicked heresie deposing vs vniustly directing your sacred precept to oecumenical councel of Bishops to heare the matter between vs and the said Dioscorus and certifie your Maiesties of the whole cause that you may do therein what shal please your Graces Iustinian in his sixt Constitution prescribing what persons he will haue made Bishops and how they shal be qualified and examined before they be admitted threatneth in sharp manner He that doth any thing besides this which we haue appointed both he that is ordered shal be depriued of his function and he that did order him shall loose his Bishopricke for offending this law The like punishment he setteth downe for Simonie Though sayth Iustinian he haue all other things that we before required yet if hee procure a Bishopricke by mony or mony worth Let him knowe that hee shall be turned out of his Bishoprike and doe his orderer this pleasure that he also shall be remoued from his office and from the Clergie So for ordering and not examining that was obiected against the Person If one come to bee made a Bishop and any man contradict and offer to lay somewhat to his charge Let him not be ordered before such complaints be discussed And if he that should make him hasten to consecration after such contradiction without examining the matter Let him know that which he doth shall be vtterly void and also he that goeth against our law shall be depriued of his Priestly function and he that ordered him without trial shall likewise be remooued from his Episcopall dignitie So for absence from his church after he is Bishop This also we define that no Bishop bee so hardie as to absent himselfe from his Church aboue one whole yere If he be away longer than a yere let the Patriarke of that region cite him orderly to returne If he continue disobedient let him be clean expelled from the sacred number of Bishops And generally for all matters comprised in that constitution The things which we haue decreed for the preseruation of ecclesiastical order and state agreeable to the tenor and prescript of the sacred rules let the most holy Patriarkes of euery Prouince the Metropolitanes and the rest of the most reuerend Bishops and Clerks see that they keepe for euer hereafter sure and inuiolable the punishment to him that transgresseth these things shal be to be seuered quite from God and excluded from his Priestly degree In his sixteene constitution commaunding Clerks to be remoued from one Church to an other till the iust number which he decreed were supplied in euery Church he writeth to the Patriarke of Constantinople in this wise Your blessednes shall endeuour to put in execution the things which we haue thought decent for the profite of the sacred and holy Churches And if any thing be attempted to the contrarie let him assure himselfe that durst enter orders against this our law that it doe him no good In his 57 Constitutiō prohibiting the sacred mysteries to be celebrated in priuat Chappels these things saith he we commaund to the most holy Archbishop and vniuersall Patriarke of this Citie In his 123 Constitution you shal find examples enough of his Princely prohibitions and commaundements to Bishops for matters concerning the regiment of the Church For first appointing how Bishoppes shall bee chosen and that the Person elected shall before his admission deliuer a confession of the true faith subscribed with his owne hand and recite the praiers vsed in the sacred communion holy Baptisme and sweare that hee neither hath giuen nor promised nor will giue any thing to those that elected him nor to him that ordereth him nor to any other the rather to attaine his ordering he addeth If any be made Bishope against this obseruation as well he shall be cast out of his Bishoprike as the other that presumed to create him against this forme shall bee seuered one yere from the sacred ministerie and shall forfeit all his goods to the Church where he is Bishop But if any man consecrate one that is accused before hee examine the matter both he that is made and he that did make him shal bee depriued of their episcopall functions Aboue al things This we decree to bee kept that no man be made a Bishop by rewards And therefore as well hee that giueth as he that taketh and he that would bee the meanes to worke it shal be degraded And so going on with Diuers ecclesiastical Chapters he saith We forbid the Bishops to leaue their Churches and to trauell into other coasts And we commaund that in euery Prouince there be yerely kept a Synode where causes of faith and doubts concerning the Canons and administration of ecclesiasticall things as also touching Bishops Priests Deacons and other Clerks and Rulers of Monasteries and Moncks either for their liues or other things needing reformation shall be handled and in conuenient manner examined and corrected according to the sacred Canons and OVR imperial LAVVES Besides we command that all Bishoppes and Priests doe celebrate the sacred oblation and praiers in the holy Baptisme not secretly but with a loud voice so as the faithfull people may heare the religious Priests and Bishops knowing that if they neglect any of these things they shall answer for it in the dreadfull iudgement of the great GOD and our Sauiour Christ neither will wee vnderstanding thereof passe it ouer or leaue it vnpunished We also forbid the most religious Bishops Priests and all other Clerks to play at tables or to companie with such gamsters or to be present at spectacles If any of them offend in this point we command that he bee suspended from his function for three yeres Likewise we forbid all Bishops and Priests to separate any man from the communion til a cause be shewed for which the Canons wil it to be doone If any man separate an other from the communion against this law the partie that is greeued vniustly shal be absolued and receaued to the communion by an higher Priest And he that durst excommunicate vniustly shall be put from the communion by the Bishop that is next aboue him as long as it seemeth good to that superiour Moreouer if the Bishops of the same Synode haue any controuersie betweene them touching ether ecclesiastical right or causes first their Metropolitane with two other Bishops of the same Synod shall determine the matter And if either part find fault with that iudgment then shal the Patriarke of that Prouince heare the cause and define that which is consonant to the canons ecclesiastical and our lawes neither part hauing leaue to cōtradict his sentence If a Clerke or any other of what cause soeuer appeale from a Bishop first the Metropolitane shall iudge the matter according to the sacred canons
impossible reproueable by all diuine and humane learning which neuer king much lesse Queene Christian nor heathen Catholike nor heretike in this Realme or in all the worlde besides before our age did chalenge or accept You heape authorities and absurdities and terrifie the simple with woordes and crakes of the largest life as if the doctrine were so barbarous and monsterous that heathen and prophane men would abhorre it and when the bottom of your skil is seene and the pride of your tongues spent notwithstanding your often and ioyly profers you neuer so much as come neere the question Phi. Will you make vs beleeue that Theo. Marke the points that wee teach and see howe wide you bee from refuting that which wee defend Wee say Princes onely be Gouernours that is higher powers ordayned of God and bearing the sword with lawful and publike authoritie to command for trueth to prohibite and with the sword punish errors and al other ecclesiastical disorders as well as temporall within their Realmes This wee proue this you graunt to bee good and sound doctrine Of this then there is no question betwixt vs. Secondly wee teach that as all their subiects Bishoppes and others must obey them commanding that which is good in matters of religion and endure them with patience when they take part with error so they their Scepters and swordes bee not subiect to the Popes tribunall neither hath he by the lawe of God or by the Canons of the Church any power or preeminence to reuerse their doings and depose their persons but this is a wicked and arrogant vsurpation lately crept into the West partes of Europe since the Bishops of Rome exalted themselues aboue all that is called God and for this cause we confesse Princes within their owne regiments to bee SVPREME that is not vnder the Popes iurisdiction neither to bee commaunded nor displaced at his pleasure but to bee reserued to the righteous and Soueraigne iudgement of God who will syncerely iudge and seuerely punish both Popes and Princes if they bolster or suffer any kind of Impietie within their dominions This is the very point that is in question betwixt vs of which in your whole Apologie you speake not one woord but cunningly shift your handes of it knowing your selues not able to iustifie your wicked assertion And lest the reader should distrust your silence in that behalfe you followe the woorde supreme with huy and crie as if God were highly dishonoured and the Church of Christ robbed of her right and inheritance because the Pope may not set his feete in Princes neckes and be Lord Paramount of all earthly states and kingdomes Phi. Doe wee mistake your meaning or doe you rather pull in your hornes when you see your selues compassed round with so many grolie and sensible absurdities Theo. What one inconuenience can you fasten on vs for teaching this doctrine Phi. A thousand Theo. You bee better at craking than concluding Proue but one and spare the rest Phi. This Soueraigntie giueth power to the Queene to conferre that to others as to the Priestes and Bishops to preach minister Sacraments haue cure of soules and such like which shee neither hath nor can haue nor doe her selfe It giueth her that may neither preach nor speake in publike of matters of religion to do that which is much more euen to prescribe by her selfe or her deputies or Lawes authorised onely by her to the preachers what to preach which way to worship and serue God howe and in what forme to minister the Sacraments to punish and depriue teach and correct them and generally to prescribe and appoint which way shee will bee gouerned in soule It maketh the body aboue the soule the temporall regiment aboue the spiritual the earthly kingdom◠aboue Christs body mysticall It maketh the sheepe aboue the Pastor It giueth her power to command them whom and wherein she is bound to obey It giueth power to the subiect to be iudge of the Iudges yea and of God himselfe as S. Cyprian speaketh It maketh her free from Ecclesiasticall discipline from which no true child of Gods familie is exempted It derogateth from Christes Priesthoode which both in his owne person and in the Church is aboue his kingly dignitie It diuideth which is a matter of much importance the state of the Catholike Church and the holy communion or societie of all Christian men in the same into as many partes not communicant one with on other nor holding one of an other as there bee worldly kingdomes differing by customes Lawes and manners eche from other which is of most pernitious sequele and against the very natiue qualitie of the most perfect coniunction societie vnitie and entercourse of the whole Church and euery Prouince and person thereof together It openeth the gappe to all kinde of diuisions schismes sectes disorders It maketh all Christian Bishops Priestes and what other soeuer borne out of the Realme forainers and vsurpers in all iurisdiction Ecclesiasticall towardes vs there can bee no iurisdiction ouer English mens soules but prooceeding and depending of her soueraigne right therein Which is directly against Christes expresse commaundement and commission giuen to Peter first and then to all the Apostles of preaching baptizing remitting retayning binding and loosing ouer all the worlde without difference of temporall state or dependance of any mortall Prince therein It keepeth the Realme from obedience to generall Councels which haue beene or shal be gathered in forraine Countries It taketh away al conuenient meanes of gathering holding or executing any 〈◊〉 Councels and their decrees as appeared by refusing to come to the late Councell of Trent notwithstanding the Popes messengers letters of other great Princes which requested and inuited them to the same When a Realme or Prince is in error it taketh away all meanes of reducing them to the trueth againe no subiection being acknowledged to Councels or Tribunals abroad all other Bishoppes Patriarkes Apostles Christ and all because they were and bee forrainers not hauing iurisdiction nor sufficient authoritie to define against English Sectaries and errors Finally if this iurisdiction spirituall bee alwaies of right a sequele of the Crowne and scepter of all Kings assuredly Christ nor none of his Apostles could otherwise enter to conuert Countries preach and exercise iurisdiction spirituall without Caesars and others the Kinges of the Countries licence and delegation Theo. Upon what part of our doctrine inferre you these absurdities Phi. Upon the supremacie wherewith you flatter Princes For all these thinges be consequent to the princes ecclesiasticall soueraigntie Theo. You must tell vs howe Phi. See you not that Theo. Surely not I. There bee two partes of our assertion as I shewed you before the first auouching that Princes may commaunde for trueth and abolish errour the next that Princes bee supreme that is not subiect to the Popes iudiciall processe to bee cited suspended deposed at his becke
Upon one of these twayne if you reason against vs must your absurdities bee grounded The first you can not impugne but you must therewith impugne the Scriptures the best and most famous Princes of Christendome the Church of God it selfe which for eight hundred yeeres and vpwarde embraced and obeyed the Lawes and Edicts of religious Princes commaunding for truth And if you thinke you may say and vnsay with a breath and refell that now as absurd which I before proued and you yeelded to bee sounde and good doctrine take either of our positions rightly vnderstoode for your antecedent and marke howe ioyntlesse and senselesse the sequeles bee that you set downe for ineuitable consequents When Princes commaunde for trueth it is euident they commaund the selfe same thing that God commaundeth or rather as S. Augustine plainly declareth God himselfe commaundeth by their heartes that are in his handes the thinges which no man shoulde refuse Emperours saith hee commaund the selfe same thing that Christ commaundeth for when they commaund that which is good it is Christ and no man els that commandeth by them Againe Marke sayth hee with howe manifest trueth God himselfe speaketh by the Princes heart which is in his hande euen in this lawe which you complaine to bee made against you And therefore hee concludeth when Princes commaund for trueth Whosoeuer neglecteth their commaundement shall haue no part with God for not doing that which TRVETH BY THE KINGS HEART COMMAVNDED HIM TO DOE If you build your absurdities vpon the first part of our doctrine then must you thus conclude When God commandeth by the Princes heart that which is good in matters of religion The bodie is aboue the soule the sheepe aboue the Pastor the subiect is iudge of the Iudges yea of God himselfe and consequently Neither Christ neither any of his Apostles could enter to conuert Countries preach and exercise iurisdiction spirituall without Caesars licence and delegation Well your Rhetorike may beguile fooles sure your Logike will neuer enforce wise men to regard your conclusions Phi. Wee make no such arguments Theo. You must make these or worse The first part of our assertion is that Princes bee Gods seruants and ministers appointed to beare the sword with full commission to command what God commandeth and to prohibite what God prohibiteth as well in matters pertayning to religion as Ciuill iustice You inferre vpon vs that wee make The body aboue the soule the temporall regiment aboue the spirituall the earthly kingdome aboue Christes body mysticall the sheepe aboue the Pastor the subiect to bee iudge of the Iudges yea of God himselfe with many like childish and friuolous consequents Let your owne fauourers bee iudges in this case whether we be absurd in affirming that we doe or you more absurd in refelling vs as you doe If it be no absurditie with you for princes to command that which the Pope appointeth them as your selues defend that is your opinion what inconuenience can it bee for Princes to commaunde that which Christ the Soueraigne Lorde and head of the Church commaundeth which is all the power that wee giue to Princes notwithstanding your fayned and false reports in this slaunderous libell of yours to the contrarie Phi. Wee neuer denyed but Princes might commaund that which God commaundeth and in so doing they be rather to be commended for their pietie than to be charged with any absurditie Theo. And wee neuer affirmed that Princes might commaund that which God forbiddeth or prohibite that which God commandeth And therefore you must seeke out some others whome you may persue with your absurdities they touch no part of our doctrine Phi. They shewe what an absurd thing it is for temporall Princes to chalenge supreme power ouer Christes Church in causes of religion Theo. If you take the word supreme as it euer was and is defended by vs to make Princes free from the wrongfull and vsurped iurisdiction which the Pope claimeth ouer them your illations haue as litle strength and trueth as the former for what fond and vntoward reasons bee these If the Pope may not depose Princes and discharge their subiects from all obedience ergo we giue Power to the Queene to prescribe to the Preachers what to preach which way to worshippe and serue God howe and in what forme to minister the Sacraments to punish and depriue teach and correct them and generally to prescribe and appoint which way shee will bee gouerned in soule ergo wee make her free from ecclesiasticall discipline wee derogate from Christes Priesthoode and open the gap to all kinde of diuisions schismes sectes and disorders ergo there can bee no iurisdiction ouer English mens soules but proceeding and depending of her wee keepe the Realme from obedience to generall Councels and take away all meanes of reducing the Realme and Prince when they bee in error to the trueth againe with many such loose and vnsauory sequences Phi. If the Prince be supreme she may doe what she list in all matters of religion and Ecclesiasticall regiment and so these absurdities follow very directly vpon that assertion of yours Theo. That Princes may do what they list in matters of religion and the regiment of the Church is neither coherent nor consequent to our opinion but a wicked and wylie pretence of yours to cause men that can not so wel discerne of your sophismes to distrust our doctrine as false and absurde and in the meane time to conuey your selues awaie as it were in a mist vnespied And as for the wordes supreme gouernour which you wring and wrest to that purpose take the true construction of them as the oth importeth and we professe them and infer duly but one of your absurdities vpon them we yeeld you the rest Phi. What not one Theo. No not one descend to the specialties when you will Phi. It giueth power to the Queene to conferre that to others which she neither hath nor can haue nor doe her selfe as to the Priestes and Bishops to preach minister the Sacramentes haue cure of soules and such like Theo. It giueth no such power to the Queene as you speake of Bishoppes haue their authoritie to preach and minister the Sacramentes not from the Prince but from Christ himselfe Goe teach all nations baptising them so forth onely the Prince giueth them publike libertie without let or disturbance to do that which Christ commaundeth If you see no difference between the commission which Christ giueth vnto Bishops and the permission whereby Princes suffer and incite them with peace and praise to doe their duties your learning is not so great as you would make the world beleeue it is For what a foolish collection is this The Prince permitteth those that are sent of Christ to preach and administer the Sacramentes ergo the Prince conferreth that power or function to them You might as well conclude The Prince permitteth men to liue
of his truth and clensers of his Church that is with lawfull force to remoue such as impugne the faith and with publik authorit◠to punish those that defile the Church of God with their shamelesse manners be they Priestes or People and this doth not place earthly kingdomes aboue the Church but prepare them as aydes and defences for the Church which is the right end of all earthly States was the first cause why God erected them Though the sheepe may not rule their sheepeheards yet giue them leaue to discerne strangers and flie from theeues and murderers and giue the great and Archpastor that is in heauen leaue to gard his flock not only with watchmen but also with armed men that if the greedinesse and hardinesse of the wolues bee such that they feare not the clamours of Preachers at least they may shrinke for the terrours of Princes And this is no such absurditie as you make it that Princes should serue the true sheepeheard Christ Iesus by turning their swords against those raueners and spoylers which vnder the colour shew of feeding would kill the fattest and gorge themselues with the fairest of Christes flocke Yea Princes in their sort be sheepeheardes as well as Bishops in that they beare the sword vnder God to compell and punish such as the gentle perswasion of the Preacher can not moue and for that cause God said to Dauid Thou shalt feede my people Israell and Dauid maketh this report of himselfe So he fed them according to the simplicitie of his hart and guided them by the discretion of his handes As Princes are bound to heare preachers directing them vnto truth because the wordes of God are in their mouthes and hee that despiseth those thinges despiseth not mā but God so likewise are Preachers bound to obey Princes commanding for truth who so neglecteth that commandement of theirs shall haue no part with God for not doing that which trueth by the kinges hart commanded him And the Princes obedience to be due not to Preachers persons or pleasures but their message deliuered them by God the Lord Ruler of all Princes appeareth by this that Princes may lawfully punish the preachers if they falsifie the word of truth or shame their calling with their disordered liuing That Princes be iudges of Religion we neuer said it nor thought it much lesse that they be iudges of God himselfe this argueth rather your impudencie in reporting than our ignorance in not affirming it Gods name be blessed we know what difference there is and ought to be betweene God and man as well as you but such is the badnesse of your cause and blindnesse of your harts that you must and will rather childishly quarrell and wittingly belie the truth than come to a faire and euen triall S. Cyprian hath some such wordes but no such meaning as you alleage He saith when a Bishop is orderly chosen in any Church he that After the diuine allowance or iudgement after the suffrages of the people after the consent and liking of other Bishops erecteth a second in the same Church against him maketh himselfe now the Controler and Iudge not of the Bishop but of God which wee beleeue to be verie true but how doth this proue that Christiā magistrates may not displace wicked and vnworthy Bishops for their iustes desertes which is our question And as Cyprian in his sense is not againste vs so Cyprian in our case is cleare against you For when as yet there were no Princes Christened that with publike authoritie might remoue vngodly Bishoppes Cyprian assureth vs that the people might lawfully seuer them-selues from a wicked Bishoppe and elect an other His words bee these Therefore the flocke or people obeying the Lordes preceptes and fearing God ought to separate themselues from a sinfull Bishop and not to participate with the sacrifices of a sacrilegious Priest whereas they chiefly haue power to chose worthy Bishops and to reiect vnworthie perswading and incouraging the people to goe forwarde in that their attempt notwithstanding the Bishop of Rome tooke stitch with the partie deposed and wrote letters for his restitution of the which Cyprian maketh no great account as you may see by his words that follow Neither is the Bishop of Rome so much to be blamed that was deceiued through negligence as this man to be detested that fraudulently deceiued him And though Basilides coulde circumuent men yet can he not beguile God Phi. It maketh her free from Ecclesiasticall discipline from which no true childe of Gods familie is exempted Theo. It maketh her free from the Popes Buls and decretals but not from the Lawes and Precepts of Christ which is the true discipline of Gods children Touching the regiment of their owne persons and liues Princes owe the verie same reuerence and obedience to the word and Sacraments that euerie priuate man doth and if any Prince would be baptised or approach to the Lords table with manifest shew of vnbeliefe or irrepentance the minister is bound freely to speake and rather to lay downe his life at the Princes feete than to let the king of Kings be prouoked the mysteries defiled his owne soule and the Princes indangered for lacke of often and earnest admonition Phi. I am glad you graunt that Princes may be excommunicated for that proueth Priestes to be their superiours and ouerthroweth quite their supremacie Theo. You reason very profoundly The seruants of God may not receiue any mortall man to the diuine mysteries except he bring with him a right faith in God an inwarde sorrowe for his former sinnes ergo the Pope may depose Princes set their subiectes in open fielde against them to thrust them from their thrones Phi. We reason not so but we say Priestes may excommunicate Princes ergo they be superiours to Princes Theo. I speake of not admitting Princes to the Sacramentes but with those conditions that God requireth of all Christian men without respect of States or persons and you by and by leape to excommunication which word you egerly sease on not for any meaning you haue to guide Princes right lest they prouoke the wrath of God to their euerlasting destruction by the contempt of his graces but for a cunning to defeate them of their crownes by your indirect and vngodly deuises For first you wil excōmunicate them that is you wil haue no cōmunion with them in anie thing spiritual or tēporal next you descend from not cōmunicating with thē to not obeying them lastly from not obeying to open rebelling against them placing others in their steedes And thus when Princes displease you you neuer leaue them till with this wreath of excommunication you wring their Scepters out of their handes But if you looke better about you you shall finde great difference between not deliuering them the sacred mysteries of God except they repent and beleeue the Gospell and your diuelish conspiracie to deny
How els should we cal her Phi. Not Gouernour but Prince or ruler For Bishops be Gouernours in their kind as well as Princes Theo. As though these words were not subiect to the same cauils with the former Bishops be Princes and Rulers in their kind as well as gouernours Your selues proue them to be rulers by S. Paul Obey your Rulers and againe The holy Ghost hath set you to rule the Church And where you say Rulers in S. Paul S. Hierom saith Parete Principibus vestris Obey you Princes And elswhere A Bishop must be irreproueable or he shall be no Prince of the Church Yea Gregorie doubteth not to call them Kings The holy preachers of the Church saith he be Kings And S. Hierom ventereth to call them Queenes The Kings and Queenes that nource the Church be plainly the Apostles and Apostolike men So that if we were disposed to play with wordes as you be we coulde driue you to seeke newe names not only for Kings Princes but also for Priests and Bishops S. Iohn saith of himselfe and of al the faithfull Christ hath made vs Kings and Priests vnto god his father and S. Peter confirmeth the same You are a Roiall Priesthood Eusebius writeth of Constantine that He called the seruants of God to Synods as a coÌ„mon Bishop appointed by God and sate among them and made himselfe partaker of their consultations and that in his hearing the Prince Named himselfe a Bishop with these wordes You are Bishops of things within the Church I am appointed by God a Bishop of those things that are without the Church And this he might well doe For 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Bishoppe is in Greeke nothing else but an ouerseer or a superintendent which woord Hierom vseth and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whence our English woorde Priest seemeth to be deriued he sayth is nomen aetatis a name of age and signifieth an Elder and nothing in the Scriptures more common than to call Princes and rulers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Elders as the seuentie Elders all the tribes of Israel and their Elders Princes and iudges the Princes and Elders of Sucoth the Elders of Bethulia and infinite other places where the woord 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is vsed of the Septuagint Phi. We know you may confound all things if you list to dally with equiuocatioÌ„s but S. Paul hath expresly prohibited al good teachers strife of words Theo. You say well and since al your absurdities haue none other ground but the carping at our words or rather the manifest abusing and perâ—erting of the same what are your labours to requite you with Saint Paul but vaine brables of men corrupted in mind and depriued of trueth If the word gouernour were common to Bishops with Princes as you would haue it yet are their offices and regiments many wayes distinguished The gouernment of Princes is publike of Bishops is priuate of Princes is compulsiue of Bishops is persuasiue of Princes is Lordly with Rule of Bishops is brotherly with seruice of Princes is externall and ordereth the actions of the bodie of Bishops is internall and guideth the motions of the mind to bee short Princes haue the sworde with lawfull authoritie from GOD in his name to commaunde and prohibite rewarde and reuenge that which hee prescribeth and appointeth Bishoppes haue the woorde and Sacramentes committed to their charge with fidelitie and sinceritie to diuide and dispence the same in his Church according to his will And therefore though Bishoppes may bee called Gouernours in respect of the soule yet onely Princes bee Gouernours of Realmes Pastours haue flockes and Bishoppes haue Diocesses Realmes Dominions and Countries none haue but Princes and Magistrates and so the stile Gouernour of this Realme belongeth onely to the Prince and not to the Priest and importeth a publike and Princely regiment with the sworde which no Bishoppe by Gods Lawe may claime or vse Phi. Wee coulde graunt you with a good will that the Prince is the only Gouernour of this Realm but you adde as well in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall things or causes as temporall which is most absurde and direct against your owne distinction For if the Prince be the only Gouernour of all spirituall things and causes Ergo Bishops bee no Gouernours of the word nor Sacramentes rites nor ceremonies praiers nor preachings of the Church but all must bee as please the Prince and so you fall into that shameful error againe from the which you seeke to cleare your selues Theo. Is it for weakenes of witte that you cannot or for rustines of hart that you will not see the defect of your argument Phi. The reason to my thinking is very sure For if only Princes be Gouernours in those cases Ergo not Priests Theo. A childish sophisme Your antecedent hath a special acception of the word Gouernour and your conclusion a generall Princes only bee Gouernours in things and causes ecclesiastical that is with the sword For so their vocation inferreth and your assertion witnesseth and so must you limite your antecedent before it will be good or agreeable to the Doctrine which wee teach oth which we take Then if you conclude Ergo Bishops be no gouernors in those things with the sword your illation is sound and sufficient for in all things and causes ecclesiasticall and spirituall Princes beare the sworde and not Bishops But if you inferre Ergo Bishops bee no Gouernours in those things meaning thereby no dispencers guiders nor directors of those things your conclusion is larger than your antecedent which neuer maketh good consequent Phi. I see your meaning you will haue Princes only to be Gouernours of their Realmes dominions that is to beare the sworde within their Realmes and dominions in all thinges as well spirituall as temporall Theo. You see what wee say peruert it no more but confute it if you can Phi. That Princes and none els shoulde beare the sworde within their Dominions I meane not to confute I confesse it as well as you But what hath the temporall sword to do with ecclesiasticall thinges and causes Princes should meddle with common wealth matters and not busie themselues with Church causes Theo. Runne you backe againe to this issue that Princes may not meddle with causes ecclesiasticall Haue you forgotten how largely that is prooued before and sealed with your owne consent as irreuocable Phi. Meddle they may with some spirituall thinges and causes but when and as they shall bee required by the Priest Theo. Wee are not at this present to heare what you can imagine but to see what you can impugne in our othe as absurd And thus farre you agree with vs that Princes bee the onely Gouernours of their Realmes and dominions taking Gouernours for Magistrates which beare the sworde in Gods behalfe with publike power to compell or punish Phi. And what of this Theo. Thus much that if onely Princes beare the sworde and no man else by
Gods appointment ergo they beare it in all thinges where the sworde must or may be vsed as well spirituall as temporall Phi. No doubt where the sword must or may bee borne they beare it but howe proue you that in spirituall thinges and causes the temporal sword must or may bee vsed Theo. Pitch that for the question and trie how wel you shall speede with it Phi. Wee neuer denyed but in some sort the temporall sword might bee vsed for spirituall thinges and causes as namely to defend the fayth and Canons of the Church and to put them in execution This Princes may do and must doe with their royall power but they may not commaund what they list in ecclesiasticall causes as you would haue them Theo. You snarle stil when you see your selfe brought to the wall What we woulde haue Princes to doe shall soone appeare if you cease from slaundering and keepe to the matter Our tongues ake with telling you that we hold no such opinion and yet you neuer leaue grating at vs as if we did The point that nowe wee stande at is this whether in a Christian common wealth the temporall sworde as you call it that is the publike authoritie of the Magistrate must bee vsed to receiue establish and defende the true faith of Christ and wholesome discipline of his Church and to prohibite displace and punish the contrarie say nay if you dare Phi. Wee neuer ment it Theo. Then in all spirituall thinges and causes Princes onely beare the sword that is haue publike authoritie to receiue establish and defende all poyntes and partes of Christian Doctrine and Discipline within their Realmes and without their helpe though the fayth and Canons of Christes Church may bee pryuately professed and obserued of such as bee willing yet can they not bee generally planted and setled in any kingdome nor vrged by publike Lawes externall punishments on such as refuse but by their consents that beare the sword This is it that wee say refell it if you can Phi. This is not your opinion but ours Wee confesse Princes to bee defenders of the faith and assisters of the Church with their secular might and power you auouche them to bee supreme moderatours and directours of all spirituall thinges and causes without restraint Theo. Wee auouche you to bee Supreme lyars and that which is worse you thinke with facing in time to get some credite to your fabling You finde no such thing in our words nor deedes as you report of vs. We confesse Princes to bee supreme gouernours that is as wee haue often told you supreme bearers of the sworde which was first ordained from aboue to defend and preserue as well goodlines and honestie as peace and tranquillitie amongest men We giue Princes no power to deuise or inuent new religions to alter or change Sacraments to decide or debate doubtes of faith to disturbe or infringe the canons of the church The publike power and outward meanes which God hath vnited and annexed to their swords as namely to commaund by their Edicts and dispose the goods and bodies of such as resist them this power and meanes wee say must be conuerted and vsed first to the seruice and glorie of God next to the profit and welfare of their Realmes that is as much or rather more for thinges spirituall than temporall Phi. If you giue Princes no iudicial nor spiritual power in matters of religiō but an externall and temporall power to permit and establish that which God commaundeth howe can they bee supreme Theo. Supreme they be for that by Gods Lawe they bee not vnder the Popes checke and correction though to leade on the simple sort with a better shewe you conceale that superiority which the Pope chalengeth ouer Princes and enter your whole action for the Church which woord you knew was more gratious and will in no case bee brought to take our meaning right lest you shoulde bee driuen either to proue your assertion which you can not or to confesse ours which you will not And therefore you wrest the word supreme against the very grounds of our common fayth and rules of your priuate speach to make it seeme false and absurde and then as valiant Captaines you wrestle with the fansies which your selues haue deuised fighting thus with your own shadowes you thinke your Seminaries the only lights and lanternes of Christendome but you must go more syncerely to worke before you can winne the cause Phi. Supreme is superiour to all and subiect to none Theo. And so bee Princes superiour to all men within their Realmes and subiect to no man without their Realmes Phi. What superiour to Christ the Church and all Theo. Haue you neuer done with that idle and eluish obiection Wee compare not man with God nor bodies on earth with spirites in heauen but wee conferre mortall men with their like bearing flesh about them which the sworde may touch and in comparison of them wee say Princes are superiour to all men within their dominions Bishoppes and others and subiect to no man without their dominions Prelate nor Pope to bee commaunded corrected and deposed by their tribunals This is the supremacie which wee attribute to Princes that all men within their Territories shoulde obey their Lawes or abide their pleasures and that no man on earth hath authoritie to take their swordes from them by iudiciall sentence or martiall violence Leaue wrangling and rouing and speake directly to this question Phi. I will if you first graunt that your meaning is not so large as your woordes bee Theo. You would fayne seeme with your eloquent nifles to woorke some masteries but it will not bee Our woordes are no larger than our meaning and both be true Phi. Why supreme is superiour to al none excepted no not Christ himselfe The. And what are these phrases the most holy the most mightie the most blessed which you applie to the Pope do they except Christ or no Phi. If nothing else be added they doe not by rigor of comparison but common vse of speach vnderstandeth them of earthly men and alwayes excepteth first God with whom there can bee none compared and next his Saints which be farre from vs in an other and better life Theo. I crie you mercie You may salute your Romish Pharaoh when you will with the most mightie Priest the most blessed father the chiefe Pastor and many such loftie stiles and wee must come after with salt and spoones and conceaue that Christ is excepted though he bee not because your flatteries bee common and if wee to signifie that Princes by Gods lawe bee not vnder the Popes yoke defende them to bee superiour to all men at home and subiect to no mans Courts or Consistories abroade and therfore call them supreme Gouernours of their owne people and Countries you sounde alarme against vs as if wee went about to defeate Christ of his kingdome and disseism
the Church of her inheritaunce when your selues euery day if that speach bee not tolerable commit blasphemies innumerable If other examples doe not stay your wisedomes remember your vsual stile for the Pope is summus Pontifex Supreme Bishoppe summus and supremus being all one I meane not in sense onely but in speach also For they both bee superlatiues from the same comparatiue Superior and summus is nothing else but the very contraction of the woorde Supremus So that if Supreme Bishoppe with you doe not spoile Christ of his Priesthoode how can supreme Gouernour with vs lift him out of his kingdome he clayming expressely to bee chiefe Pastor and Bishoppe of our soules and renouncing in woordes and refusing in deedes to bee an earthly Prince and iudge in temporall thinges as the Scripture plainely recordeth And therefore first confesse and correct your owne ouersight if not error which taketh from Christ or at lest diuideth with him his speciall and peculiar title and then if we proue not that all men haue written and spoken in like sort as wee doe you shall find vs readie if that be your feare to retract euery syllable that is preiudicial to the sonne of GOD and to giue him as much honour as you can wish or wee deuise which when it is most is no more than hee well deserueth Phi. You content vs somewhat if you stand to this which you say that you giue Princes no Power against the faith nor Canons of the Church and that the gouernment which you acknowledge in them for spirituall things and causes is nothing els but their temporall and externall might and meanes to see the Rules and precepts of Christ and his Church receiued and settled in their Realmes and to punish the neglecters and resisters of the same And yet your termes were so large that your owne friendes reproued them as well as wee Theo. Neither misplace nor mistake my wordes Against the precepts of Christ or Canons of his Church wee giue Princes no power most true we doe not mary by the Canons of the Church we do not meane the Popes Bulles or decrees nor the partiall iudgements of such Councels as he hath assembled for his faction and framed to his fansies These bee late violent and wicked intrusions but the auncient and Godly Rules of Christes Church generally receaued of all good Christians and generally confirmed of all good Princes these be the Canons which Princes in dutie should not in equitie may not subuert if they wil be taken for faithful defenders and not â—or wilfull oppressours of Christes church For if in temporal things Princes may not dissolue the Lawes of their Progenitors nor frustrate the liberties of their people against reason and Iustice how much lesse ought they to violate the true Canons and euacuate the good orders and discipline of the Church concluded by so many Godly Fathers confirmed by so many worthie Princes and setled in so many sundrie places and ages Constantine saith Eusebius confirmed with his authoritie the Canons which the Bishops had agreed on in their Synodes lest the Rulers of his Prouinces should infringe them We decree saith Iustinian that the sacred ecclesiastical Canons concluded and confirmed in the fower first generall Councels haue equal force with our lawes For we keepe the Canons of the foresaid Councels as lawes And again It hath beene rightly said of Emperours before vs and of vs also that the sacred Canons ought to take place as lawes Athanasius obiected this to Constantius as a note of a tyrant that he did abrogate the Canons with violence and ordered all things against the Canons And Gregorie when it was written to him that the Emperour commanded an other to be chosen for the Bishop of Iustiniana within his prouince by reason of the sicknes which the said Bishop was troubled with in his head made this answere The Canons do no where commaund that a Bishop should loose his office for sicknesse And therefore it is against iustice if a Bishop fall sick that he should be depriued of his honor If the said reuereÌ„d Bishop for his own ease do require to be discharged of his Episcopal function when hee deliuereth that petition in writing it must bee graunted Otherwise I dare not doe it for feare of almightie God Whatseeuer the Emperour commaundeth is in his owne power Let him prouide as hee seeth cause onely let him not cause mee to bee partaker of this mans deposition That which hee doeth if it bee according to the Canons wee follow it if it be against the Canons we beare it with silence so long as wee may without sinne on our parts Phi. Where haue you this place Theo. Why doe you aske Phi. Because wee find the former words in our Decrees but not the later Theo. In deede you say trueth they were not for your diet they shewe that the Bishoppe of Rome was obedient to the Emperour in ecclesiasticall causes so long as the Prince did ioyne with the Canons and that hee was silent when the Prince went besides the Canons so farre foorth as hee might without sinne in himselfe And therefore the Collector of your Decrees left out the last wordes and changed the first by putting the Popes person in steede of the Princes For where Gregorie begynneth Scripsit mihi tua dilectio pijssimum Dominum nostrum reuerentissimo fratri meo Ioanni primae Iustinianae Episcopo pro egritudine capitis quam patitur praecipere succedi Your Louingnes wrate vnto mee that our most religious Lord commaundeth an other to be chosen in the place of our reuerende brother Iohn Bishoppe of Iustmiana because of the griefe of his head Your Lawe reporteth it thus Scripsit mihitua dilectio me reuerentissimo fratri Do. c. Your Louingnes wrate vnto me that I commaunded an other to bee chosen c. which is a detestable and inexcusable forgerie but my purpose is to shew that good Princes obserued and esteemed the Canons of the Church no lesse than their owne Lawes and tooke them for paternes to guyde their Edicts in causes ecclesiasticall as sayth Iustinian Our Lawes doe not disdaine to follow the sacred Rules or Canons Phi. It abateth the supreme power of Princes very much to bee bound to the Canons of the Church Theo. No more than it doeth in ciuill regiment to bee tied to the groundes of nature reason and equitie from which no wise nor sober Prince woulde wish to bee loosed And Princes bee Supreme not in respect that all thinges bee subiect to their willes which were plaine tyrannie not Christian authoritie but that all Persons within their Realmes are bounde to obey their Lawes or abide their paynes and themselues not depriueable by the Pope but reserued to the righteous and terrible iudge if they abuse their swordes to the maintaining of error and oppressing of innocents Phi. Yet this is cleare that the sworde which Princes beare is temporall
and therefore the power which Princes haue is not spirituall Theo. Wee neuer sayde that Princes had any spirituall power it is a false collection of yours it is no part of our confession and the sworde which they beare wee neuer called but externall and temporall For the true spiritual and eternall sworde is the woorde of God The sworde of the spirite sayth S. Paul which is the word of God and S. Iohn describing the sonne of God sayth Out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword The word of GOD as S. Paul writeth is more percing than any two edged sword and entereth through euen to the parting in sunder of the soul and spirit And as for both these causes it is spirituall so it indureth for euer and is eternall The magistrats sword compared with this is but corporall and temporall Corporall in respect it toucheth the body but not the soule Our sauiour for warning his Disciples that they should be brought before Gouernours and Kings for his sake addeth to encourage theÌ„ Feare not those which kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Temporal it is in respect either of Gods ordinance which lasteth no longer than the time of this worlde or of mans vengeance which ceaseth by death and rageth no farther or if you will for that it ordereth the things of this life and praiseth or punisheth the senssible and external actions of the body which be temporall The things which bee seene are temporal saith S. Paul but the things which are not seene are eternal Phi. You take temporal for that which dureth for a season and is not eternall and we take temporal as it is opposite to spirituall And in that sense because the sword hath to doe with temporal men and matters only we call it the temporall sworde and haue good reason to defend that temporall Princes should not meddle with spirituall Persons or causes Theo. The distinction of spirituall and temporal Persons things and causes as you limite them sprang first from your selues without all authoritie or rather in deed against the authoritie of the holy scriptures and was nothing els but a mere deuise of yours to encrease your Courts and to wind the sword by litle and litle out of other mens fingers hang it at your owne girdles For when you saw that the things which be truly spiritual as faith hope charitie with other vertues and fruites of the spirit belonged only to GOD and not to man and therefore by the resolution of our Sauiour must bee giuen to God and not to Cesar first you would needs be termed spirituall men taking the name which is common to all the sonnes of GOD as proper to your selues and your seruants and by that colour exempt not onely Priests but also doore keepers torche bearers bell ringers Church sweepers and all your retinue from subiection to temporall magistrates But S. Paul calleth them spirituall men which haue the spirit of GOD as all his children haue and the rest carnal or natural men I could not speak to you brethren as vnto spiritual men but as vnto carnal euen as vnto babes in Christ. For where as there is yet among you enuieng strife dissention are you not carnal And againe The naturall man sauoureth not the thinges of the spirit of God but the spiritual man discerneth al things And so BrethreÌ„ if a maÌ„ be fallen into any fault you that be spiritual restore such a one with the spirit of meeknesse As also S. Iude These be fleshly men hauing no spirit And likewise Saint Peter Bee you made as liuely stones a spirituall house What wrong then you doe the faythfull when you name them temporall as if the hope of their calling reached no farther than this life let the wise and Godly iudge That reproche of temporall and pride of spirituall men no learned nor auncient father euer vsed Secular S. Hierom calleth them Laymen Clerkes that were not Monkes Temporall no man euer called the people of God besides your selues Next that your landes and liuings might speede no worse than your selues for gaine was the mother of your earely and dayly deuotion you tooke order to haue them goe for spirituall thinges also notwithstanding Saint Paul expressely called them carnal If wee haue sowen vnto you spirituall things is it a great matter if wee reape your carnall thinges And speaking of the poore Saintes at Ierusalem If the Gentiles bee made partakers of their spirituall thinges their duetie is also to minister vnto them in carnal things And where the Lorde himselfe willed the Scribes and high Priestes to giue vnto Caesar the thinges that were Caesars and vnto God the things that were Gods you as if that graunt had beene too liberall thought it expedient vppon some wiser consideration belike to set the image and superscription of God and his Church vpon your corruptible and earthly Mammon and by that cunning to keepe it from Caesar. Farre better S. Ambrose If the Emperour aske for tribute we deny it not The lands of the Church pay tribute If he affect the lands themselues he hath power to take them no man amoÌ„gst vs is any let vnto him The almes of the people is enough for the poore Let them neuer procure vs enuie for our Landes let them take them if they please I doe not giue them to the Emperour but I doe not denie them Thirdly to enlarge your kingdome and stretch your winges ouer all men and matters as farre as you needed or listed you tooke the punishment of incest adulterie fornication drunkennes vsurie periurie simonie sorcerie blasphemie witchcraft Apostacie and such like grosse and fleshly vices out of the Magistrates handes vnder the colour of spirituall thinges and fastened them to your consistories And not therewith content you caught holde of tithes testaments legacies intestates patronages mariages diuorces dowries espousals funerals affinitie consanguinitie bastardie bondage as of spirituall causes and questions and if the matter concerned the goods and Landes of Churches or Church men you made no bones to venter on giftes sales exchaunges possession alienation restitution conuentions conditions exactions sureties pledges payments dammages iniuries forgeries hyring lending farming and a thousand such as if all actions causes and contracts that any way touched your gayne or ease must by and by goe for spirituall and the magistrate by that poore shift bee secluded from ordering and entermedling with those things which were wont to bee wholy guided by the Princes Lawes Phi. Mislike you that Priestes shoulde punish sinne or that Bishoppes should deale in those cases which bee incident to the Lawes of GOD and Canons of the Church Theo. I doe not mislike that malefactours of all kindes not onely drunkards raylers periurers adulterers vsurers and such like but also theeues robbers rauishers murderers plagiaries incendiaries trâ—ytours and all other haynous offendours when their liues bee
life Theo. The necessities of this life are nourishment and rayment the rest are superflâ—ities When wee haue foode and apparel sayth the Apostle let vs bee therewith content whatsoeuer is aboue is needlesse and noysome Our Sauiour willing his not to bee carefull for their life expresseth all thinges that bee needefull for this present life Take no thought saying what shall wee eate what shall wee drinke or wherewith shall wee bee clothed Your heauenly Father knoweth that you haue neede of these thinges These thinges wee neede and therefore are they promised other thinges are not promised and therefore we neede them not If Princes were first ordained of God for those thinges onely which are needefull to maintaine this temporall life for thinges superfluous are besides the promise and without the protection of GOD the power and charge of Princes shoulde consist in meates drinkes and apparell and Princes haue no farther care of their people than they haue of their houndes and Horses to see them well fedde and smoothe kept which is a very wicked and brutish opinion Phi. They are besides to maintaine peace and quietnes among their subiects Theo. You might haue ioyned godlines and honestie therewithall as S. Paul doeth and then had you done well I exhort sayth hee that prayers and supplications be made for Kings for all that are in authoritie that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honestie Prayers must bee made for kinges that they may discharge their duties according to Gods ordinance which is that their subiects by their helpe and meanes may leade an honest godly and quiet life godlinesse and honestie being the chiefest endes of our praiers and effectes of their powers For God hath not put the goodes landes bodies and liues of men into Princes handes to cloath their backes and fill their bellies but with praise to prouoke those that be willing to driue those that be not willing with punishments to imbrace pietie towards God sobrietie towardes themselues and charitie towardes their neighbours This you may learne by the regiment of euery priuate familie which is both a part and a paterne of the common-wealth Al parents and masters haue a farther charge ouer their children and seruantes than to see them defended froÌ„ hunger and colde A wicked father is hee that feedeth and cloatheth and nourâ—ereth not his children Ye fathers saith S. Paul bring vp your children in the instruction and information of the Lord. Come children saith Dauid harken vnto me I will teach you the feare of the Lord. Moses admonishing the whole people of the Iewes as it were speaking to euery particular maÌ„ Take heed saith he to thy selfe that thou forget not the thinges which thine eyes haue seene and that they depart not out of thine heart all the dayes of thy life but teach them thy sonnes and thy sonnes sonnes and so God himselfe said to Moses Gather mee the people togither and I will cause them to heare my words that they may learne to feare me all the dayes that they shall liue vpon the earth and that they may teach their children This diligence God coÌ„mended and rewarded in Abraham as the best part of a fathers duetie I know him saith God that hee will commaund his sonnes and his houshold after him that they keepe the waie of the Lord to do righteousnes and iudgement that the Lord may bring vpon Abraham that good which he hath spoken vnto him If priuate men be bound to traine vp their families in the feare of God and loue of vertue much more are Princes the publike fathers of their countries and exalted to farre greater and higher authoritie by Gods ordinance than fathers or masters I say much more are they in coÌ„science charged by calling licenced to frame their subiectes to the true seruice of God right obedience of his law which be thinges not temporal but spiritual This king Dauid protesteth and promiseth vnto God he will doe in his kingdom Him that priuilie slaundereth his neighbour will I destroy Mine eyes shall be to the faithfull of the Land that they may dwell with mee hee that walketh in a perfect way he shal serue me There shall no deceitful or proude person dwell within mine house hee that telleth lies shall not remaine in my sight Betimes will I destroy all the wicked of the Land that I may cut off al the workers of iniquitie from the citie of the Lord. This christian Princes as you heard before made not onely a part but the chiefest part of their duetie The true religion of God and honest conuersation euen of Priests themselues is our chiefest care saith Iustinian And so Valentinian Theodosius The search of true religion we finde to be the chiefest care of the Imperiall Maiestie With whom S. Austen agreeth defending Felix a catholike Bishop against the Donatists for that he was cleared at a temporall bar by the Princes commandement of such crimes as were obiected to him notwithstanding they were ecclesiasticall One of you saith a Bishop ought not to be cleared at the Proconsuls bar as though he sought it not rather the Emperour commanded that kinde of trial to be had to whose charge that matter did most pertaine and whereof the Prince was to render an account to God Of this mind were the Bishops of Rome themselues in former ages Eleutherius not long after Christ wrote to Lucius king of this realm amongst other things in this wise You are Gods Vicar in that kingdom The natioÌ„s people of Britanny are yours whom you ought to gather bring vnto concord peace vnto the faith law of Christ vnto his holy Church to nourish maintaine protect rule alwaies to defende from iniuries mischiefs froÌ„ enemies A king you shal be whiles you rule wel which except you do you shal be vnworthy the name of a king loose it which God forbid So Pope Iohn made answere to Pipin Charles Illos decet vocari Reges qui vigilaÌ„ter defendunt regunt ecclesiam Dei populum eius imitati Regem Psalmographum dicentem non habitabit in medio domus meae qui facit superbiam c. We must cal those kings which doe carefully defend rule the church of God his people after the example of king Dauid in his Psalmes a proude man shall not dwel in mine house This Gregory the great earnestly exhorted Edelberth vnto the first that was christened of the Saxon kings in this Land For this cause the almightie God bringeth good Princes to the regiment of his people that by them hee may bestow the gifts of his mercy vpon al that are vnder theÌ„ Therfore glorious son the grace which you haue obtained at Gods hands keepe with a careful minde hasten to extend the faith of Christ in the nations vnder you Increase the zeale of your vprightnes to
their conuersion subuert the worship of idols ouerthrow their tēples edifie the maners of your subiects by exhorting threatning faire intreating correcting shewing examples of wel doing that you may find him a rewarder in heauen whose name knowlege you haue dilated in earth For so Constantine a most religious Emperor reuoking the Romane Empire from the peruerse seruice of idols subdued the same with himself to the almighty God our Lord Iesus Christ turned him self together with the people vnder him to God with al his heart And nowe let your excellency labor to poure the knowledge of one God the father the son the holy Ghost into the Princes people that are subiect to you that he may make you partaker of his kingdom whose faith you cause to be receiued and obserued in your kingdom This the kings of England before since the cōquest were taught to be their duty sworn to execute faithfully as the lawes of king Edward the good make proofe which William the Conquerer receiued confirmed where the office charge of a king are thus expressed A king because he is the Lieutenant of the most high king was appointed to this end that he should regard gouerne the earthly kingdom and the people of God and aboue all thinges his holie Church and defend her from wronges and roote out male factors from her yea scatter and destroy them Which except he do he can not iustly be called a king A king ought to feare God and aboue all thinges to loue him and to establish his commaundementes throughout his kingdom He ought also to keepe nourish maintaine and gouerne the holie Church of his kingdome with all integritie and libertie according to the constitutions of his fathers and predecessours and to defende it against enemies so as God may be honoured aboue all and euer had in minde He ought to establish good lawes and approued customes and abolish euill lawes and customes and remoue them all out of his Realme Hee ought to doe right iudgement in his kingdom and execute iustice by the counsell of his Nobles All these thinges ought the king to sweare in his owne person before he be crowned The verie Heathen perceiued confessed this to be true Aristotle a prophane Philosopher writing of the first institution of kings sheweth how many things they were by office to medle with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A king in olde time was the leader in warres pronouncer in iudgements and ouerseer of religion And againe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Diuine things were committed to Princes as part of their charge Al Monarchies kingdomes and common-wealthes Assyrians Persians Medes Graecians Romanes Iewes Gentiles Pagans Christians haue euer kept this for a generall rule that religion shoulde bee setled and establissed by publike lawes and maintained by the Magistrates sword So that if you take the defence of pietie the reward of honestie and balance of equitie from the Princes charge you run headlong against God and man to feede your owne appetites and see not that which reason and nature taught the heathen to confesse that as euery priuate man is bound to seeke and serue God aboue all thinges so euerie societie of men be it familie citie or countrie is likewise bound to haue a speciall and principall care of his seruice which can not be done vnlesse it be planted preserued by publike lawes of these lawes as of all other amongst men onely Magistrates be the makers keepers and reuengers Phi. Princes be charged after a sort with godlines and honestie Theo Your delaies do not answere our proofes We shew the chiefest part of their charge to be godlines and honestie which be thinges spiritual not temporall Phi. What if that be granted Theo. If their duty stretch so far their authoritie must stretch as far Their charge ceaseth where their power endeth God neuer requireth princes to do that which he permitteth thē not to do but rather his commanding them to care for those thinges is a full authorizing of them to medle with those thinges If then godlines and honestie bee the chiefest part of their charge ergo they be likewise the chiefest end of their power and consequently Princes beare the sword chiefly for spiritual thinges and causes not as you defend onely for temporall Phi. You put all thinges temporall spirituall and ecclesiasticall into their handes Theo. In all these thinges and other things whatsoeuer we say they beare the sword and why should that displease you God hath giuen them the sworde euen in those thinges which himselfe commaundeth and prescribeth as namely faith and good manners which be the chiefe contentes of his lawe and respectes of our life and do you think it much that they beare the sword in those indifferent matters which Bishops haue agreed on for seemelinesse and good order to be kept in the church no way comparable to those thinges which God hath put them in trust with and made them defenders and auengers of And if Princes shall not beare the sworde in thinges and causes ecclesiasticall you must tell vs who shall The Priest or the Prince of force must do it and since by Gods law the Priest may not medle with the sword the consequēt is ineuitable that Princes alone are Gods ministers bearing the sword to reward and reuenge good and euill in all thinges and causes bee they temporal spirituall or ecclesiasticall vnlesse you thinke that disorders and abuses ecclesiasticall should be freely permitted and neither preuented nor punished by publike authoritie which in these froward ages would breede a plain contempt of all ecclesiasticall order and discipline and hasten the subuersion of those kingdomes and common-wealthes where such confusion is suffered Phi. The Rites and Ceremonies of the Church are not in the Princes power Theo. To deuise new Rites and Ceremonies for the Church is not the Princes vocation but to receiue and allow such as the Scriptures and Canons commend and such as the Bishops and Pastours of the place shall aduise not infringing the Scriptures or Canons And so for all other ecclesiasticall thinges and causes Princes be neither the deuisers nor directors of them but the confirmers and establishers of that which is good and displacers and reuengers of that which is euill which power we say they haue in all thinges causes be they spirituall ecclesiasticall or temporall Phi. And what for excommunications and absolutions be they in the Princes power also Theo. The abuse of excommunication in the Priest contempt of it in the people Princes may punish excommunicate they may not for so much as the keies are no part of their charge But these particulars if we seuerally discusse we shall neuer end the generall rules on which our assertion is grounded may be sooner proposed and resolued First to whom hath God committed the sword to the Priest or the Prince Phi. To whom say you
except it were out of the bookes of faith or who would trust them in diuine causes without some colour of diuine Scriptures But what meanes the Lord hath left his sheepe to distinguish true shepheards from wolues dissembling their habite and theeues pretending his name this is the question that now we bee in Phi. It is And there must wee say bee some certaine Tribunall on earth where truth may be found at all times and of all men that bee willing to seeke for it otherwise there should be no stay for religion nor end of contention euery man pretending his faith to be trueth and no man hauing authoritie to decide which is trueth which were most absurd Theo. A Tribunal in earth to decide which is trueth Whose Tribunal shall that be Phi. The Churches Theo. We be now as neere as we were before If the truth be douted of the church must needes be much more doubted of because the church is the number of men professing the truth And howe can the professours of trueth be seuered from others so long as the trueth by which they should bee knowen is in question You doe but wast your breath if you goe not more directly to worke Phi. You would fayne call the Church in question but that you can not Theo. Away with these follies Where fayth faileth the church fayleth and hee that affirmeth your doctrine to bee false denyeth your assemblies and multitudes to bee the Church The supposing your selues to bee the Church when your fayth shoulde bee tried is a fonde and vaine delay Shall that be trueth which you professe though Christ say nay Phi. We say not so Theo. Then suffer those to bee his sheepe that heare his voyce and clayme not his fold vntill you be his sheepe Phi. We do not Theo. Wee must be first resolued which is his voyce before we can agree who are his sheepe Phi. I know that and yet which is the sheepheards voyce the sheepe must iudge and not the wolues The. In deed our sauiour saith The sheepe follow the shepheard for they know his voyce A stranger they will not follow but flee from him for they knew not the voyce of strangers applying this to himself My sheep saith he heare my voyce and follow me The reason went before for they know the voyce of their shepheard So that by the position of our Sauiour his sheepe must be able to discerne his voyce from a strangers Phi. What else Theo. His voyce is his woord his sheepe are the faithfull his folde is his church If the Lorde himselfe referre his sheepe to their exact knowledge of his voyce for their perfect direction why woulde you force the flocke of Christ to the court of Rome there to learne at your handes and vppon your only credite the voyce of their shepheard Phi. We would haue them followe the direction of Christes church in discerning the sound of Christes voyce Theo. And the church of Christ neuer directed any man by prescribing certaine places or persons where trueth could not fayle but only by the generall and constant profession of the same faith from the Apostles downe-ward in all ages and countries Phi. The church commendeth succession councels and Apostolicall Seates as good helpes to hit the right sense of the Scriptures Theo. But neuer as infallible notes to discerne the trueth Phi. The Bishops of the vniuersall Church haue as S. Ireneus sayth receiued with their Episcopal succession the grace and gift of vnderstanding the trueth Theo. You do that auncient father wrong in the place which you bring Ireneus limiteth succession after the same maner that we do noting successiō to be nothing worth vnlesse sound doctrine and holy conuersation be thereunto ioyned His woordes be Wee must therfore obey those Priests which are in the Church I meane those which haue their succession from the Apostles which together with their succession in office haue receiued charisma veritatis certum the sure doctrine or gift of trueth The rest we must suspect either as heretikes or as authors of schismes and pleasers of themselues or else as hypocrites vayne glorious and couetous From all such we must abstaine and cleaue to them as I said which keepe the doctrine of the Apostles with the order of their priestly calling yeeld wholesome doctrine conuersation without offence And shewing what hee meaneth by charisma he sayth Vbi igitur charismata Domini posita sunt ibi dicere oportet veritatem Where these blessings and gifts of God are there must we learne the trueth with whome is that succession of the Church which is from the Apostles and also sounde and irreproueable Doctrine So that orderly succession sound doctrine and conuersation without blame are the giftes and graces of God which he meaneth and the one hee will not haue to bee regarded or trusted without the other Phi. Make you no more accompt of succession Theo. We cōmend succession to exclude ambition and dissention in the Church of Christ and in that respect we detest such as inuade the Pastorall function without lawfull vocation and election but that succession in place should be taken for a warrant of true Doctrine is an error of yours and so palpable that euery Child can refell it For who knoweth not that an infinite number of bishops those orderly succeeding if you looke to their dignitie and not to their doctrine haue beene heretiks And that S. Paul thus forewarned the Bishops of Ephesus Out of your selues shall rise men speaking peruerse things to draw disciples after them And the Lord when he saith Beware of false prophets noteth there shall bee prophets by their calling which shal be foūd false in their teaching as S. Peter also witnesseth There were false prophets among the people of the Iewes euen as there shall be false teachers amongst you distinguished from Godly teachers not by office but by Doctrine S. Paul graunteth many to be the ministers of Christ in outward profession and shew which in workes and deeds be the ministers of Sathan Such false Apostles saith hee are deceitful workers and transforme them selues into the Apostles of Christ. The Prince of darkenesse that can conuaie his agents to be Teachers Prophets and Apostles in the Church of Christ can place them in Bishoprikes at his pleasure and therefore the chaire is no sure defence against error Phi. Wee know some Bishops haue beene heretikes but not all Theo. Neither do we say that all were God forbid But by this that some were we proue succession to bee no sure direction vnto trueth If Berillus Paulus Samosatenus Photinus Nestorius Dioscorus Petrus Apameus Sergius Cyrus Theodorus Macarius and infinit others canonically succeeding in Seates and Churches of no small account fell afterward into pestilent heresies that which was often easie then is contingent possible still succession which saued not them from erring can not defend others from the
hereticall Emperour assaied to ouerthrowe multis paucorum fraude deceptis the multitude there being deceiued by the subtiltie of a fewe And therefore hee concludeth Sed nunc ne◠ego Nicenum nec tu debes Ariminense tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Concilium nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris But nowe since there be contrarie Councels neither ought I to produce the Councell of Nice nor you the Councel of Ariminum for a preiudice to either part for neither am I bound to the authoritie of this later Councell of Ariminum nor you to the authoritie of that former Nicene Councell Confessing not only that councels might erre but that his aduersarie was not tied to the authoritie of the great Nicene councell comparable to the which no Councell euer was or shall bee in the Church of Christ. Phi. There was great difference betweene the Councell of Ariminum and the Councell of Nice Theo. In the syncere profession of the true fayth there was difference betwixt them but in the manner of calling those Councels and number of the persons present Saint Augustine founde no great aduantage for his side The Arrians had a councell as great and as general for that which they refused as the Catholiques had for that which they professed and therefore this learned father sawe no remedie but hee must yeelde vppe the Nicene Councell as no sufficient conuiction of their heresie Phi. The councell of Ariminum was not generall Theo. The councell was farre greater as it should seeme than the councell of Nice though the Storie of the church doe not lay downe the certaine number of the Bishoppes that mette Phi. What reason leadeth you to thinke it was greater Theo. It is euident by the Storie that the Emperour assembled all the Bishoppes both of the East and of the West church of purpose if it were possible to bring them to some concord and the Bishoppes of either church no doubt farre exceeded the number of three hundred Phi. They were not all at Ariminum Theo. The number was so great and the iourney so long that the Emperour made them sit in two seuerall places the East Bishoppes at Nicomedia the West at Ariminum but that all the Bishoppes of both Churches were gathered in these two places Socrates doeth witnesse Imperator vniuersale Concilium congregare voluit vt cunctos Orientis Episcopos in Occidentem accersitos concordes si posset redderet The Emperour intended to gather an vniuersall Councell that all the Bishoppes of the East comming into the West parts he might get thē to agree if it might be And when the length of the iourney appeared ouer tedious he cōmanded the councel to be diuided willed the west to assemble at Ariminum the East to resort at Nicomedia What a companie there were of the west bishops their own words to Constantius will declare Ariminū ex cunctis Occidentis Ciuitatibus omnes Episcopi conuenimus We assembled at Ariminum euen all the Bishops out of all the west Cities S. Hierom writing of this very Councell saith Illo tempore nihil tam pium nihil tam conueniens seruo Dei videbatur quam vnitatem sequi a totius mundi communione non scindi At that time nothing seemed so religious nothing so conuenient for the seruant of God as to follow vnitie and not to cut himselfe from the Communion of the whole world The communion of the whole world was in the Councell of Ariminum no Councell therefore could be more generall than that was And this no doubt Saint Augustine sawe when hee gaue ouer the Councell of Nice as no greater preiudice to his aduersaries than the Councel of Ariminum was to himselfe and the fayth which he defended Phi. The Councell of Ariminum condemned the error of Arius as their Epistle to Constantius declareth Theo. The Bishoppes assembled at Ariminum were religious and Catholike but not sounding the drift of some craftie heretikes amongest them and ledde with a coulour of concord and peace which the Emperour vrged they relented from the Nicene creede vppon pretence made that the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was new and offensiue and consented the worde should bee abolished and subscribed to an other Creede that professed the sonne of GOD to bee like to his father according to the Scriptures Phi. Wherein then did that Councell erre Theo. Not in decreeing any falsehood but in exacting lesse to bee beleeued than the Christian faith required and reiecting that worde which the Nicene Councell had established for the righter expressing of the christian faith In this Councell saith Saint Hierom Nomine vnitatis fidei infidelitas scripta est In the name of vnitie and faith infidelity was decreed and written and vppon the conclusion of the Councell Ingemuit totus orbis Arrianum se esse miratus est The whole worlde groned and wondered to see it selfe in Arrianisme Phi. The fathers made more accompt of Councels than you doe Theo. No father euer saide that Councels could not erre Phi. S. Augustine saith their authoritie is most wholesome in the Church Theo. But hee neuer said they were free from all error That is the perfection and reuerence which S. Augustine reserueth to the Scriptures only to be without all suspition of error Solis eis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum authorem scribendo aliquid errasse firmissime credam I haue learned to yeeld this feare and honor to the Canonical Scriptures only that I firmely beleeue none of the Authors of them to haue any thing erred in penning them If this honor to be free from error be due to the Canonical Scriptures only then may you not impart it either to succession Councels or Sees Apostolike It must stand for a perpetuall difference betweene the preceptes of God and decrees of men that God is true and all men lyars If ought sayth Austen bee prooued by the manifest authoritie of the diuine Scriptures which in the Church are called Canonicall it must bee beleeued without any doubting Other witnesses or testimonies thou mayst beleeue or not beleeue according as thou shalt see cause to trust thē And distinguishing the Canon of the Scriptures from the writings and resolutions of all that followed were they fathers Councels or whatsoeuer hee sayth In that Canonicall preeminence of the sacred Scriptures if it appeare that but one Prophet Apostle or Euangelist set downe any thing in his writings it is not lawfull to doubt of the trueth of it In the works of those that came after them comprised in bookes that bee infinite in which soeuer of them the same truth is sound yet the authoritie is farre inferior Therfore in thē if happily some things be thought to dissent from truth because they be not vnderstood as they were spoken tamen liberum ibi habet lector
must haue Theo. The charge which Christ gaue Peter to feede his sheepe is common to all Pastours But with the mercy which Christ shewed him in conuerting him and restoring him after his fall what haue his successors to do Christ promised Peter repentance will you therefore inferre that all Popes haue the like promises Or had they as they haue not doeth this let but they may forsweare their master and loose their faith as Peter did notwithstanding this praier and promise of Christ made vnto him Phi. But they shall also repent as Peter did Theo. If you could proue that promise to pertaine vnto them as you can not yet might their errour be publike and their conuersion secret as Peters was and since they bee subiect to Peters fall namely to denie both their faith and their master though they were promised repentance with him as they bee not yet howe can you knowe what thinges proceeded from the Popes mouth erring and which from the Popes hart repenting Which vnlesse you doe you may erre with him to your eternall confusion and not repent with him for that you haue not the like promise Phi. I will bee with you to the worldes ende saith Christ and hee forsaketh those that erre So that if the church should erre this promise of his were not kept which God forbid Theo. You shew the goodnesse of your cause when you reele thus from the Pope to the church and from the church to the Pope and yet finde nothing to fitte you Christ is with euery one of his and not onely with the Pope as you would haue the place to sound and yet I thinke you will not affirm that no christian can erre Many good men haue erred euen in matters of faith and yet not beene forsaken of Christ. The longer you reason the farther you bee from prouing that the Pope can not erre For this promise concerneth him no more than it doth any other christian and perhaps not so much or if it did yet doth it not free him from errour Phi. The promise which is generall to euery member of the church concerneth him chiefly that is head of the church Theo. Keepe this head of yours till the body need it the church of Christ hath a surer and better head thā the Pope or else it were ill with her Phi. Christ we know is the head of his church and the onely head in such soueraigne and principall manner as no earthly man is or can be yet the Pope may be the ministeriall head Theo. When you proue it then say it in the meane while abuse not the word of God to serue your follies Christ dwelleth in the hartes of all that bee his by faith with them he remaineth vntill the worldes end What is this to the Pope or how doth this fense him from errour Phi. If he be Christs he can not erre Theo. This text doth not proue him to be one of Christs but if he bee then Christ is with him as hee is with all other his members Phi. And they can not erre with whom Christ is Theo. Bee these your demonstrations that the Pope can not erre to shewe for him no better nor other priuilege than that which is common to him with women children if they be mēbers of Christ And were he a mēber of Christ which as yet for ought that I see you can hardly proue hee might be deceiued in some cases of religion as well as Lactantius Irineus Cyprian and others men of great learning and good account in the church of God Phi. Our Sauiour saieth it is not possible that the electe shoulde be seduced Theo. Not possible they should bee seduced to fall from God as the wicked are Yet as they may sinne but not vnto death euen so may they erre but not vnto destruction Their errour shall either be not finall or not mortall Phi. May they that erre bee saued Theo. If they holde fast the foundation which is Christ and erre not of wilfull obstinacie but of humane frailtie why may they not bee saued S. Cyprian said of those that were before him If any of our predecessours either ignorantly or simply did not obserue and keepe that which the Lord by his example and authoritie willed his simplicitie may be pardoned by the goodnesse of God And S. Augustin said of him when an errour of his was alleadged by the Donatistes for their defence Cyprian either was not all of this opinion or he after corrected it by the rule of truth or this blemish in his most beautifull brest he couered with the teates of charity And farther alleadgeth and alloweth this saying of Cyprians Ignosci potest simpliciter erranti he that erreth of simplicity may be pardoned Of himselfe and all others S. Augustine saith Homines sumus vnde aliquid aliter sapere quà m se res habet humana tentatio est In nullo autem aliter sapere quā se res habet Angelica perfectio est We are men and therefore to thinke otherwise than the truth is is humane infirmitie or a tentation common to man To be deceiued in nothing is Angelicall perfection And therefore writing to S. Hierom and of S. Hierom he saith Prorsus non te arbitror sic legi libros tuos velle tanquam Prophetarum aut Apostolorum de quorum scriptis quòd omni errore careant dubitare nefarium Absit hoc à pia humilitate veraci de temetipso cogitatione I am fully of opinion that you would not haue your books to be read in such sort as wee do the Prophetes and Apostles of whose writinges to doubt whether they be free from all errour is wickednesse Be this far from godly humilitie and the true perswasion of your selfe So that set the Apostles aside and their writinges no man ought to thinke of himselfe that hee can not erre neither can you haue that opinion of any man without a proude false perswasion aboue mans state and against Gods truth Phi. What shall wee then saie to the promise which our Lorde made to his When hee the spirite of trueth commeth hee shall teach you all trueth Theo. If it bee referred to the Apostles then present with him as the wordes next before doe specifie I haue yet many things to saie vnto you but you can not beare them nowe wee graunt those witnesses chosen by Christ to teach all Nations were to bee furnished with all trueth and to bee established in the same but if it bee extended to all the faithfull they also shall bee ledde into all trueth needefull and requisite to saluation I meane the substantiall groundes of faith though in some questions of Religion happilie they shall not all bee like minded Phi. And what for the Churche shall shee haue no parte in this promise Theoph. If the faythfull haue the Church which is the number and collection of the faythfull must needes haue But that the
that from thence foorth he may declare all his subiectes to be discharged of their fealtie towardes him and giue vp his Land to be possessed by Catholiks which catholiks without all contradiction when they haue driuen out the heretiks shall haue and hold the same and so preserue it in puritie of faith the interest and right of the chiefe Lord euer remaining safe whole so that himselfe giue no impediment to the execution of this Decree And the same law to take place in such also as be Soueraigne Lords and haue no superiours Theo. Our question is not what numbers the Pope hath gathered nor what Decrees hee hath made to settle and assure his kingdom the iudgementes of God are righteous and meruelous as well against Princes as priuate men But we demaund what commission the Pope and his Prelates whom God appointed to be subiect to Princes had to determine thus against Princes to take both their crownes and Realmes from them when they listed to excommunicate them The number of Persons was aboue twelue hundred as you crake Bishops and other Prelates but will it please you to remember that eight hundred of them were no Bishops but Priors conuentuall their substitutes euen dreaming Monkes and begging Friers that then began to pester the world and had no right to sit in Councels By such creatures of his owne making and at his sole disposing it was easie for your Father to ouerrule all the Bishops of the worlde if they would haue saide nay such cunning deuises the Bishop of Rome hath to call and frame councels to his purpose And what if no such thing were there decreed but onely proposed and consulted on and your skill nowe serueth you to alleage it as a most renowmed decree and your adherentes deceiue the people with these thinges as fully concluded in that Councell Looke to the verie same place whence you tooke the number of them that were present and the very next wordes and see whether it be not so Venere saith Platina multa tum quidem in consultationem nec decerni tamen quicquam apertè potuit Many thinges were debated in that councell but nothing coulde plainely bee decided by reason the Pope suddainly departing to compose some tumults then suddainly risen died by the way And so your famous generall councell of Laterane is come to a swarme of hungrie Friers consulting how to defeate Princes of their temporall Dominions and lay them open to the spoile but not concluding as being preuented by the Popes hastned and inopined death Phi. We can declare and plainely deduce all that hath beene saide in the premises from holy Scriptures warrant of antiquitie The. So had you need For if no No man may sunder that which God hath ioyned togither much lesse may you displace that which God hath ordained or so much as resist the sword which he hath commaunded to be honoured and obeyed To discharge your selues from the ordinance of God from the preceptes of Christ and doctrine of his holie spirit you must not bring vs Popes Schoolemen and Fiers the eldest of theÌ„ a 1000. yeares after Christ children will not be deceiued with such â—ables you must proue your selues assoiled froÌ„ obedience to Princes when the Pope list to giue you leaue by the selfe same heauenly records by which we proue Popes and all others to be subiect to them The worde of God bindeth you to obey them the wordes of men can not loose you Goe therefore directly and soundly to worke or else you do but increase your sinne Phi. I will and you shall see it apparantly proued by the olde and new Testament and by the examples of the primatiue church that Princes for heresie and such like crimes may be lawfully deposed by Priests Theo. This is it which we require you to proue but first you confesse that Princes haue their power from God and that they may chalenge honour subiection and tribute of all that be within their Realmes not onely by the consent of men but by Gods institution and ordinance Phi. They be but humane creatures Theo. How shoulde men be more then humane creatures but their power is of God S. Paul speaking of them saith There is no power but of God and the powers that be are ordained of God So before him saide the wisedom of God By me kinges raigne Rule therefore is giuen them of the Lord and power by the most high They be Gods ministers for the wealth of him that doeth well and to take vengeance on him that doeth euil As their power is from God so the commaundemâ—nt of God is verie plaine that we should honour them Feare God honour the king saith S. Peter and Solomon expressing the same with a more effectual worde Feare saith hee the Lord and the king Yea such is the honour that God hath allowed them that we may neither open our lips bende our heats nor lift vp our handes against them Thou shalt not speake euil of the Ruler of thy people curse not the king no not in thy thought much lesse then may we resist them Let euerie soule be subiect saith the Apostle to the higher powers Whosoeuer resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God and they that resist shal receiue to themselues iudgement You must be subiect not onely because of wrath but also for conscience sake And so S. Peter Submit your selues vnto euery humane creature or ordinance vnto the king as surpassing the rest For so is the will of God And threatning an heauie iudgement hee sayth chiefly to them that despise gouermeÌ„t and feare not to speake euil of such as are in authoritie S. Iude noteth wicked and fleshly teachers for the same fault with the very same wordes They despise gouernment and speake euill of them that are in authority Of this subiection due vnto Princes the tribute which we paie them is by S. Pauls iudgement the very signe and earnest You must be subiect For for this cause pay ye also tribute And therefore the Lord himselfe when he charged all men to giue vnto Caesar that which was Cesars ment that honour subiection and tribute which by Gods law is due vnto Caesar. For that is Caesars which God by his word hath allotted vnto Caesar that no mortall man may withhold from Caesar since the Sonne of God hath allowed it vnto Caesar. Phi. All this we knowe Theo. All this if you keepe as well as know you shall offend the lesse Phi. Honour subiection and tribute must be giuen to Caesar so long as Caesar is Caesar but if Caesar bee no longer Caesar then these thinges are not due to him Theo. What meane you by this so long as Caesar is Caesar Phi. That is vntil he be lawfully depriued of his Empire Theo. Then Caesar shall haue these thinges so long as you list to suffer him to be Caesar but if you once denounce him
with armes not to vse targets not to handle speares not to bend bowes not to cast dartes but only to reproue and freely to warne This therefore is no cleare example that Priests may vse armes represse impietie by forcible wayes as you infer but a wicked abusing drawing of the scriptures to serue your warlike dispositions For Gods mans law wil assure you that priests bishops may be no warriers in their owne persons if you regard not that your own law will teach you that no clergie man may put himselfe in armes no not at the commaundement of the Bishop of Rome Pope Iohn saith Tractare de armis terrenae potescatis est To meddle with armes pertayneth to the ciuill power Pope Innocentius saith Christ who was the paterne of al priests forbad carnal weapons to be taken in hand for him A councel at Toledo in Spain Clergie men that in any factiō whatsoeuer wittingly take armes shal loose their degree be thrust in some Abbay for euer An other at Meaux in Fraunce Whatsoeuer they be that be of the clergy let thē take no warlike weapons in hand nor go with armes If they doe let them loose their degree as contemners of the sacred canōs prophaners of ecclesiasticall dignity The full resolution of all these canons by the confession of your law is this Hijs ita respondetur Sacerdotes propria manu arma arripere non debent The meaning of these places is that priests themselues in their own persons should not take weapon You heard before how often S. Paul charged that a Bishop should be no fighter nor striker and that the weapons of their warfare were not carnall and by the Lordes owne voice that he which striketh his fellowe seruauntes shall haue his portion with hypocrites What a desperate conclusion then haue you wrested out of this example against your own canons against the sacred Scriptures that priestes may not onely vse armes and represse impietie by forcible waies but assayle the person of their Soueraigne with open violence which if it were lawfull for them to vse armes as it is for others they might not so much as touch The precept of God is plaine Touch not mine annointed which reacheth to others but chiefly to Princes You may not speake euill of them can it be lawful for you to doe euill To resist them is damnation what is it then with armed violence to oppresse them Dauid was touched in his hart for cutting off the lap of Sauls garmēt you boldly conclude that priests with their own hands may violate the Princes person And where a cursing thought against them is a sinne before God a murdering hand vpon them is a merit by your doctrine Phi. We take our light from this example For here the Priests as the text saith not only resisted but when they saw the king become a leper they expelled him out of the Sāctuarie Theo. The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth they caused or gat him to hasten thence but not with violence for the next words shew that he was forced of himself to go foorth because the Lord had strokē him And so the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie the common translation which you call S. Hieroms hath for it Ipse accelerauit egredi he made hast of himselfe to go forth as terrified with the plague which he felt Phi. The Priests seuered him from al companie of men a special figure of the priests power to excommunicate for heresie as wel Princes as others in the new law the regiment of his kingdom was cōmitted to his son The. You promised ful proofes out of the word of God that priests might depose Princes now you come with empty figures of your own applying without truth or coherence Vzziah dwelt apart in an house from others because of his leprosie for so the law of God cōmanded the danger of that disease required but that the Priests seuered him frō al company this is your own making without the booke the text hath no such wordes much lesse do you find in the scriptures that he was depriued of his kingdom Iothan his son gouerned his house iudged the people of the Land because the king himselfe might not be conuersant among men by reason of his sicknes but the crowne still continued in the father though a leper Iothan began not his raign til his father was dead whom the scripture calleth the king of Iudah in the twentie fifth yeare of his raigne and last yere of his life Ph. Whose dutie was it to separate Lepers from sound Persons but only the Priests Theo. The Priests were to discerne who were lepers but the Magistrate was to see thē put apart to keepe them from infecting others The putting lepers asunder from others was first cōmanded to the childrē of Israel by them first executed though the pronoūcing them to be lepers was alwaies reserued to the Priest Phi. And the leprosie of the body resembleth the leprosie of the soule Ergo Priests may separate Princes from the church for heresie apostasie which be the sores of the inward mā as the leprosie is of the outward The. You must proue first before your cōclusion wil follow that lepers by the law of God lost their inheritance which is not true Next that euery Prince sinning must be deposed which is as false For leprosy resembleth not only heresie or apostasie but al kind of iniquitie Ambrose saith Contemptus verbi est lepra mentis the cōtempt of the word is the leprosie of the mind And so Chrysostom The leprosie of the soule which is sinne is onely to be feared And likewise the rest Intelligimus omnes auaros cupidos intus in anima peccati lepra esse perfusos We vnderstād al couetous greedy persōs to be inwardly infected with the leprosie of sinne If the leprosie of the soule be a cause sufficient to remoue princes from their Seates what Prince shal keepe his kingdome or what Bishop his chaire Bee they not all sinners as well Bishops as Princes If you take vpon you the moderation of the matter that all sinnes shall not depriue them of their Crownes but onely heresie then you decide the case like a lord as you list and checke your owne conclusion as pernitious to Popes no lesse than to Princes and wee may iustly reiect it as a figure of your owne framing without probabilitie in the antecedent or necessitie in the consequent Phi. Note the cause why king Vzziah was smitten with the leprosie for presuming to execute the spiritual and Priestly function whereof now you make thē supreme Gouernours Theo. I note it well and when we defend that Princes may preach baptize forgiue sinnes or minister the Lords supper then threaten vs with Vzziahs pride and plague on Gods name In the
the right members of Antichrist when you make such reasons to flatter the Bishop of Rome Phi. The Scripture saith of Elias He cast downe Kings destroied them and plucked the honorable from their Seates and of Eliseus in the same place he neuer feared Prince nor could be ouercome by any Theo. If the Scripture will not serue your turnes you wil make it I perceaue by one meanes or other The wordes as they lie in the Greeke are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hee brought Kinges to destruction and the mightie from their beddes you to help the matter put in termes of your owne and say he cast downe Kings destroied them and plucked them from their Seats as if Elias had beene some Iustie swash-buckler to plucke them out by the eares and not a zealous and sincere Prophet to denounce the will of God vnto them with the perill of his owne life for the which he is commended And so of Elizeus the wise man saith He was shaken that is driuen from the doing of his dutie or afearde to doe that which God willed him for any ruler These and such like praises if you take them as in Prophets and Preachers they may and ought to be taken which is not to shrinke from declaring the will of God for any Prince to aduertise them as well as others of the danger and destruction that hangeth ouer their heads they be great vertues and shined in Elias and Eliseus very brightly But if you aggrauate words to persuade men that Elias or Eliseus did depose princes as superiour iudges or layd violent hands on them to pul them from their thrones you make them Rebellious disturbers of states which was farre from them and not religious seruants to God as in deede they were Phi. By these examples of holy Scriptures we see first that annointed and lawfully created Kings may be deposed secondly for what causes they were depriued thirdly that as in the creation and consecration of Kings so also in their depriuation God vsed the ministerie of Priests and Prophets as either ordinarie or extraordinarie Iudges or executors of his wil towards them Theo. Your examples haue beene throughly considered and howsoeuer you correct and qualifie your conclusion the precedents no way fitte your purpose That annointed and lawfully created Kings may be chased from the gouernment the example of Iehu will iustifie if you adde these two prouisoes that the warrant be special from Gods own mouth the fact be done by the Magistrate whom God hath authorized to take the sword for so doth Iehues example require the rest intend no such thing The Princes which you name were either not deposed or not lawfully created Saul was presently reiected from Gods fauour and spirit from the possession of the Kingdome hee was not but only cutte off from the succession Ieroboam was sorely threatned and Vzziah sharply punished but yet neither of them deposed Achab was twise rebuked by Elias but not depriued And Athalia whom the hie-Priest in the young Kings name commaunded to bee slaine vsurped and was neuer lawfully created The causes for which they were depriued wee neede not dispute of vnlesse you first shew that they were depriued Athalia was slaine neither for Apostasie nor heresie but for vsurping the Crowne against the right heire Vzziahs actes were commended but his pride detested by God Ioram was of no worse religion than Achab his Father and others before him and after him which yet were not deposed But God reuenged on him the whordomes and witchcraftes of his mother Iesabel which hee suffered and the bloud of all his seruantes the Prophets which hee spilt in the raigne both of Achab and Ioram That cause the Prophet vttered to Iehu and Iehu to Ioram when hee slew by Israel And this plague vppon Achabs wife and house Elias threatned after the killing of Naboth Phi. Was not Ioram an Idolater Theo. Yeas that encreased his sinne but it was not the cause that he lost his kingdome Your third obseruation halteth downe right and doubleth so many times either and or that in effect you resolue nothing You say God vsed the ministerie of Priests and Prophets in the depriuation of Kings He vsed their mouthes to foretell and declare the plagues that he would send on Princes and sometimes their hands to annoint such as he would haue succeede But he vsed them neither as ordinarie nor extraordinarie Iudges nor executors to depose Princes Messengers they were to deliuer by worde of mouth that which God had determined to such as did or shoulde inherite the kingdome other execution or authoritie to depriue Princes they had none And this is farre from that which you claime for the Pope whome you make the superuisour of Princes and an ordinarie Iudge to compell them and displace them if hee see cause Phi. For so much as these Princes helde their dignities and Soueraigne authorities of God and were bound to occupie and vse the same with what forces soeuer they had to the aduauncement of his Religion and to the true worshippe and honour of their supreme Lord and Master as also to the beneâ—ite and preseruation of his people in fayth and feare of him the Priestes and Prophetes that then had the principall and direct charge of mens soules and Religion and were in spirituall matters superiours to their owne Princes rightly opposed themselues in all such actions as tended to the dishonour of GOD destruction of Religion and to the notorious domage of the soules of them ouer whome they did raigne and in the behalfe of GOD executed iustice vpon such as contrarie to their obligation and first institution abused their soueraigne power to the destruction of true religion and aduauncement of Idolatrie Heresie or such like abhomination Theo. Neuer giue vs a reason why Princes may bee deposed by Priests and Prophets so long as the fact it selfe is in doubt not yet proued to be lawful That kings holde their soueraigne authorities of God and are bound to vse the same to the aduauncement of his true worship and honour as also to the preseruation of his people in the faith and feare of him this is a point alwayes vrged by vs and lately confessed by you before you were ware for you were wont to tell vs that Princes might not meddle with spirituall things or causes and now you professe that Princes are bound to vse their authorities and forces whatsoeuer to the aduauncement of Gods religion and to the true worship and honour of God and preseruation of his people in the fayth and feare of him This then is a sound and an euident trueth alleaged by vs and allowed by you But when you grow from this to conclude that if Princes vse not their swordes and forces as they shoulde and are bounde Priestes may take their dignities and authorities from them you put Iron feete to a golden head and thinke the metals wil agree But
you bee â—owly deceiued Your consequent is as false as your antecedent is true That Princes shoulde vse their swordes for the seruice of GOD is a cleare and vndoubted principle but that Prophetes Priests or Popes may take their Scepters from them if they vse them otherwise than they ought this is a false presumption of yours and not a consequent either of your former examples or your later excurrents where you fâ—â—rish about with many pretences and prefaces to shew the reason of your wicked assertion Phi. Our conclusion is that the Priests and Prophets rightly opposed themselues in all such actions as tended to the dishonour of God and destruction of religion and in the behalfe of God executed iustice vpon such as contrarie to their obligation and first institution abused their soueraigne power to the aduancement of Idolatrie heresie Theo. What wordes you list to colour and cloake your conclusion with wee care not The matter in question betwixt vs is not whether Prophetes might oppose themselues by way of reproofe or do that which God commaunded them to the terror of Idolatrous Princes which you call executing of iustice in Gods behalfe vpon such as abused their power But in plaine termes whether euer any Priest or Prophet by vertue of their vocation as superiour Iudges did violently withstand or iudicially depose Idolatrous or hereticall Princes You take vppon you to proue by holy Scripture they did we say they did not They reproued them and threatned them by special direction and message from God they neuer deposed any Onely God sent one of them to will Iehu to take the sword in hand and as a lawfull magistrate nominated and elected by God himselfe to take vengeance on Achabs house and race Whence it will not follow that other Priests and Prophets by their ordinarie calling might do the like or giue Crownes and kingdomes as they sawe cause This was and is specially reserued vnto God When hee speaketh the worde Princes shall loose not only Scepter and State but life and soule and vntill hee speake neither Apostles nor Prophets Priests nor Popes may presume to dispose kingdomes or name successours to the Crownes of earthly Princes Phi. In these cases and all other doubtes and differences betwixt one man and an other or betwixt Prince and people that Priestes and namely the high Priest shoulde bee the Arbiter and Iudge the interpreter of Gods wil towards his people is most consonant both to nature reason the vse of all nations and to the expresse Scriptures For in Gods sacred Law thus we read Si difficile ambiguum apud te iudicium esse prospexeris inter sanguinem sanguinem causam causam lepram non lepram c. If thou foresee the iudgement to be hard and ambiguous betwixt bloud and bloud cause and cause leprosie or no leprosie and find varietie of sentences among the iudges at home rise and goe vp to the place which the Lorde thy God shall chuse and thou shalt come to the Priests of Leuies stocke and to the iudge that shall be for the time thou shalt aske of them they will iudge according to the trueth of iudgement and thou shalt doe whatsoeuer they say that haue the rule of the place which God shall chuse and shall teache thee according to his lawe thou shalt not decline neither to the right hand nor left And if any shall bee so proude as not to obey the commandement of the Priest that shall for that time minister vnto the Lord thy God by the sentence of the iudge let that man die and so thou shalt remoue euil from Israel and al the people hearing shall feare and take heede that hereafter they waxe not proude Thus farre in the holy text generally with out all exception subiecting in cases of such doubtes as are recited all degrees of faithfull men no lesse kinges than others to the Priests resolution Theo. What will you doe to help your cause that will thus both corrupt wrest the Scriptures to make them serue your fansies You wilfully peruert the words of the holy Ghost to bring them to your beck and as if that were not corruption enough you wrench force the sense of the Scripture against reasoÌ„ against trueth against the whole course of the Iewes common wealth against the very partes and branches of the text it selfe Phi. First what corruption haue wee committed in the wordes Theo. That where the wordes are If any through pride will not obay the commaundement of the Priest which shall for the time minister vnto the Lord thy God or disobay the Decree of the Iudge that man shall die you change them and say If any man will not obay the commaundement of the Priest by the Decree of the Iudge that man shall die Phi. So the latine is Ex decreto â—udicis morietur homo ille By the decree of the Iudge shal that man die Theo. But the Greeke and Hebrue are cleane against it The words of the Septuagint are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The man whosoeuer he be that shal in pride not obay the Priest that is appointed to minister vnto the name of the Lord or els shal not obay the iudge which shal be in those daies that man shal die thou shalt take the euil one from Israel The Hebrew is answerable to the Greeke The man that shal doe in pride Lebilthi shemóahh el-haccohèn hahhomèd Lesháreth shà m eth-Iehouà elohéca ò el-hasshophèt umeth haïsh hahù not to heare the Priest or the Iudge that man shall die And so did Cyprian repete this text Et homo quicunque fecerit in superbia vt non exaudiat Sacerdotem aut Iudicem quicunque fuerit in diebus illis morietur homo ille omnis populus cum audierit timebit And the man whosoeuer shall in pride not heare the Priest OR THE IVDGE which shal be in those dayes that man shal die and al the people when they heare of it shall feare Phi. But S. Hierom read it otherwise as you see by his translation Theo. You haue corrupted the translation which you call S. Hieroms and now you would bolster out your forgeries with his name Howbeit knowe you that the very same translatioÌ„ not long since was not Ex decreto iudicis but decreto iudicis He that obeyeth not the coÌ„mandement of the Priest and the decree of the iudge that man shall die This was the text of the Bible which you cal S. Hierome not much more than 200 yeres since when Nicolaus de Lyra your ordinarie Glosse did coÌ„ment vpon it And so they read to this day as also many written copies that I haue seene Hereupon Lyra saith In these such cases they must haue recourse to the superiour Iudges that is to the high Priest and the Iudge of the people And sometimes it fell out that both offices did concurre in one person
as in Heli who was both Iudge and high-Priest but commonly both the Persons were distinct and the offices And hence grew the custome from inferiour ecclesiastical Iudges to appeale to the High-Priest and from inferiour Princes secular Iudges to appeale to the King or Emperour You haue turned into ex and not only debarred the Prince of all his right but subiected him to the Priest In al doubts and differences betwixt Prince and people euen to the losse of his Crowne if the Priest say the word Phi. We follow the latine text as wee found it Theo. You might easily follow that which your selues had framed to your liking but the order of the Iewes common wealth and the circumstances of the text it selfe admitte no such meaning as you make of it For it is more than euident and testified not in a few places of the scriptures that al causes neither were nor might bee referred to the Priest Moses at the counsell of Iethro chose men of courage out of all Israel made them heads ouer the people Rulers ouer thousands Rulers ouer hundreds Rulers ouer fifties Rulers ouer tens And they iudged the people at all seasons but brought the hard causes vnto Moses for they iudged al small or easie matters themselues And though Moses by them was eased of all sauing hard and importing causes yet finding that burden too heauie for one man alone he complained vnto God and saide I am not able to beare all this people alone for it is too heauie for me To whom God made answere Gather me seuentie men of the Elders of Israel and bring them vnto the Tabernacle of the Congregation and I will come downe and talke with them there and take off the spirit that is vpon thee and put it vpon them and they shal beare the burden of the people with thee so thou shalt not beare it alone This distinction of inferiour and superiour iudges God after by his law established in that common wealth for euer In the next chapter before this which you alledge order is taken for inferiour iudge in euery Citie throughout the Land Iudges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates that is in al thy Cities which the Lord thy God giueth thee throughout thy Tribes and they shall iudge the people with righteous Iudgement In this Chapter and these very wordes which here you cite Superiour iudges are prescribed to whom harder causes and matters of greater difficultie were to be referred And so the wordes precisely sound If there fall out an hard matter for thee to iudge betwene blood and blood strife and strife sore and sore that be matters of iudgement in thy gates thou shalt rise and go vp to the place which the Lord thy God shall chose there in the land of promise And goe to the Priests of Leui and to the Iudge which shall be in those dayes and aske them and they shall shew thee the matter of iudgement The iudge of which he speaketh was the tēporal Magistrate for so the copulatiue leadeth vs and by that name were the chiefe Rulers of Gods People called before Kings were ordayned as the Booke of Iudges witnesseth neither was the iudge subiect to the Priest but had his charge besides and aboue the Priest which was to see the law of God exactly kept and obserued in all points of all men and to take vengeance on the breaker of any part thereof when as yet there were no kinges and after the creation of kinges both Priest and Iudge were subiect to the king This fourme of regiment by lower and higher Iudges and those both ecclesiasticall and cyuill king Iehosaphat renewed after he returned safe from the battell wherein Achab was slaine For hee set Iudges in the Lande in all the fensed Cities of Iudah Citie by Citie Also in Ierusalem hee appointed of the Leuites and of the Priestes and of the heades of the houses of Israel for the iudgement of the Lorde and for matters of doubt and they dwelt at Hierusalem And hee commaunded them saying thus shall yee doe in the feare of the Lorde in trueth and in a perfect heart euery cause that shall come before you from your brethren remayning in their Cities betweene blood and blood betweene Lawe and precept statutes and iudgements you shall instruct them therein and they shall not trespasse against the Lorde And beholde Amariah the Priest shall bee chiefe ouer you in euery matter of the Lordes and Zebadiah the captaine of the house of Iudah shall bee chiefe ouer you in euery matter of the kinges and the Leuites shal bee Rulers or ouerseers in your presence or vnder you Iehosaphat put that in execution which GOD prescribed by Moses for the debating and determining of greater and weightier causes among the children of Israel placing a Councell of Priestes and secular Magistrates at Hierusalem to consider of those doubtes of the Lawe and offences against GOD and the king which passed the reache of inferiour Iudges in euery Citie Marke then howe many errors you haue committed in alleaging this one place The gouernement which God setled in their common wealth to supply the want of kinges the defence might both ouer-rule kinges and depose kinges and yet when this was ordained there was no king created nor intended in Israel much lesse included or subiected to this consistorie Againe where obedience in these wordes is commaunded as well towardes the ciuil magistrate as towards the Priest you strike out the magistrate cleane and bring both Prince and people in subiection to the Priest in things and causes that be not spiritual but temporal For the deposing of Princes is a meere temporal act and you haue lesse to doe with Princes Crownes than with priuate mens inheritances which yet the priest may not dispose Thirdly the matters which belonged to them and the iudgements which they should giue were precisely limited to the lawe of God in other thinges they might not presume Nowe resisting and deposing of Princes bee things cleane besides the Lawe which Moses deliuered and therefore not determinable by those that sate to iudge according to that Law Fourthly what question can this bee betweene the Prince and the people whether the Magistrate shal bee deposed since GOD hath expressely commaunded the people to bee subiect to the sworde and not to resist against the which precept no earthly Court may deliberate much lesse determine to breake his lawe or licence the people to frustrate his heauenly wil. It is one thing to disburden the cōscience from obeying the euill that a Prince commaundeth which a Priest may doe and an other thing to take the Princes sworde out of his hand for abusing his authoritie which the Priest may not doe Lastly you force the whole text against the manifest experience of those times For it is euident that kinges commaunded and displaced high Priestes but that euer high Priest iudicially displaced
opinion is common but not currant with vs If you meane to proue it you shall haue the longer and stiller audieÌ„ce Phi. S. Peter being but a meere spiritual officer and Pastor of mens soules yet for sacrilege and simulation stroke dead both man and wife S. Paul stroke blind Elymas the Magician So did he threaten to come to his contemners in rod of discipline So did be excoÌ„municate a Principal person in Corinth for incest not only by spiritual punishment but also by bodily vexation giuing him vp to Satans chastisement As he corporally also corrected and molested with an euill spirit Himeneus and Alexander for blasphemie and heresie Finally he boldly auoucheth that his power in God is to reuenge al disobedience and to bring vnder all loftie hearts to the loialtie of christ and of the Apostles and Sainctes in this life Nescitis quoth he quoniam Angelos iudicabimus quanto magis secularia knowe you not that wee shall iudge Angels how much more secular matters Theo. Such dissolute mariners were neuer like but to make such desperate aduentures You shoulde proue that spirituall Pastours haue power to sease the goods and possessions and chastise the bodies of such as they excommunicate and you shewe where God afflicted those for their sinnes which the Apostles cast out of the Church either with euill spirites or some corporall plague or death as hee sawe cause which is not pertinent to your purpose Can you not distinguish the finger of God from the factes of men Or see you no difference between miraculous vengeance from heauen and iudicial processe on earth God strake Ananias dead for tempting him in Peter and Elymas for resisting him in Paul May Preachers therefore putte out mens eyes and murther such as beleeue them not In deede you practise this new kinde of preaching but not by warrant from Christ or his Apostles Philand Did not Peter kill Ananias and Sapphira with his worde Theo. And since you can not do the like with your words you will take helpe of your handes Phi. With wordes or handes so they bee slaine all is one Theo. Not so The one is a miracle wrought by God the other is a murder committed by man which God prohibiteth and of all other thinges ought to bee farthest from the Preachers of peace Phi. Peter did so Theo. Peter reproued them for tempting the holie Ghost but the hande of God and not of Peter inflicted the punishment Reade the place Then saide Peter Ananias why hath Satan filled thine heart that thou shouldest he vnto the holie Ghost Thou hast not lied vnto men but vnto God Nowe when Ananias hearde these words saith the Scrâ—pture hee fell downe and gaue vppe the Ghost I aske not what faâ—t of Peters you finde that shoulde hasten the death of Ananias but what one worde purporting any such thing can you shewe vs in all that Peter saide to Ananias Phi. In his wordes to Sapphira wee can For hee saide to her The feete of them that haue buried thine husband are at the doore and shall carrie thee out Theo. Did Peter by these words kill her or foretell her that God would doe to her as hee had doone to her husbande Phi. Which say you Theo. Peter we say neither desired nor inflicted that iudgement on them but onely signified what God would doe The like we saie for Paul when Elymas was stroken blind He warned that Sorcerer what should befall him from God but himselfe did neither enuie nor iniurie the Sorcerers eyes His wordes were Wilt thou not cease to peruert the streight waies of the Lord Now therefore behold the hand of the Lord is vpon thee and thou shalt be blind not seeing the Sunne for a time Paul denounced Paul imposed not that corporall chastisement on him The deede was Gods who may iustly take from his enemies not onely their eies but their breathes and spirits when he wil and in what sort it pleaseth best his righteous and sacred wisedome Phi. But Paul himselfe corporallie corrected and molested with an euill spirite Himineus and Alexander for blasphemie and heresie So did he excommunicate a Principal Person in Corinth for incest not onely by spiritual punishment but also by bodilie vexation giuing him vp to Satans chastisement Theo. You drawe the word of God to your fansies by turning doubtes into certaineties antecedentes into consequentes mans actions into Gods iudgementes That the Apostle deliuered Himineus and Alexander vnto Satan and so the incestuous Corinthian whom you of your owne head without any witnesse call a Principal Person in Corinth because the slide you saw was easie from Principall to Princes is a matter out of question but that he corporally corrected and molested them with euil spirites these be your additamentes wherewith you thought to lengthen the text to your own liking Phi. S. Paul gaue iudgement of the Corinthian that he should bee deliuered vnto Satan for the destruction of the flesh And how could the flesh be destroied without bodily vexation affliction The. This phrase for the destruction of the flesh hath diuerse expositions therefore vpon a doubtful kinde of speech you can not build an vndouted conclusion S. Ambrose expoundeth the place thus The Apostle decreed that by the consent in the presence of all men he should be cast out of the Church Cum eijcitur traditur Satanae in interitum carnis Et anima enim corpus intereunt His casting him out of the Church is the deliuering of him to Satan to the destruction of the whole man which is nothing but flesh For both soule and bodie perish And lest you shoulâ— thinke it much that the soule is called fleshe he giueth this reason Victa anima libidine carnis fit caro the soule once ouercome by the lustes of the flesh becommeth flesh and is in the Scripture so commonly called the lusts of the flesh deliuereth the soule defiled with it and also the body to hell Phi. But S. Paul addeth that the spirite may bee saued in the day of our Lord Iesus Christ which can not stand with this exposition that both fleshe spirit were deliuered vnto perdition Theo. The same father will tell you that the spirit may be referred not to him that was excluded but to the rest that remained in the church as if S. Paul should haue saide I haue decreed to cast this vncleane person out from among you to his iust condemnation that the grace of Gods spirit may be preserued in the rest of you to the day of iudgement The same Sainct Augustine followeth What spirite doeth the Apostle affirme shoulde bee preserued when he saieth I haue deliuered that man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh c. The destruction of the flesh ment in this place is a man addicted to pleasures and fleshly delightes purchaseth hell to himselfe For by such sinnes the whole man becommeth
you Marke howe Paul deliuered the man of Corinth to Satan Eijciebatur nempe a communi fidelium caetu hee was cast out of the congregation of the faythfull hee was cutte off from the flocke of Christ and left naked and being so destitute of Gods helpe hee lay open to the Wolfe and subiect to euerie assault So sayth Theodorete By this place where Paul deliuered the incestuous Corinthian to Satan we are taught that the diuell inuadeth them which are seuered cut off from the bodie of the church finding them destitute of Gods grace Keepe your selues therefore within your limites Pastors haue their charge which is as S. Paul noteth to watch ouer soules they haue not to doe with the goods or bodies of the faithfull Their goods are Caesars by the plaine resolution of our Sauiour Giue vnto Caesar the thinges which are Caesars Which God willed Samuel to aduertise the people of when they first demaunded a king Shew them the right or law of the king that shall raigne ouer them And so Samuel did saying This shall be the law of your king He shall take your sonnes and appoint them for his charets and to be his horsemen shal make theÌ„ captaines ouer thowsandes captaines ouer fiftyes set them to eare his grounds to reape his haruest to make his instruments of war things to serue for his charets And he wil take your fields vines best olyues giue them to his seruants And he wil take the tenth of your corn wine giue it to his Princes seruitors And he wil take your men seruaÌ„ts maideseruants the choice of your yong meÌ„ your asses vse theÌ„ to his work The tenth of your sheep wil he take ye shal be his seruaÌ„ts Phi. Make you the king Lord of al without exception Theo. Though God neuer ment that Princes inordinate priuate pleasures should wast consume the wealth of their Realmes yet may they iustly commaunde the goods and bodies of all their Subiects in time both of warre and peace for any publike necessitie or vtilitie Whereby God declareth Princes and not Pastours to bee the right ouerseers of temporall and earthlie matters and consequentlie that the power of the keyes extendeth not to those thinges which are committed to the Princes charge I meane neither to the goods nor to the bodies of christian men To a king sayth Chrysostom are the bodies of men committed to the Priest their soules The king pardoneth corporall offences the Priest remitteth the guiltinesse of sinne The king compelleth the Priest exhorteth the one with force the other with aduise the kings weapons are sensible the Priâ—stes are Ghostly The like distinction betweene them doth S. Hierom make Rex nolentibus praest Episcopus volentibus ille timore subijcit hic seruituti donatur ille corpora custodit ad mortem hic animas seruat ad vitam The king ruleth men vnwilling the Priest none saue the willing the king hath his in subiection with terrour the Priest is appointed for the seruice of his the king mastereth their bodies with death but the Priest preserueth their soules to life This power of the sword our Sauiour precisely prohibited his Apostles as I haue shewed and therefore you may not indirectly nor by accident chalenge it Phi. Why then did Paul saie Knowe you not that wee shall iudge the Angels howe much more secular matters Theo. If this bee the best hold you haue in the new Testament for secular matters you must take the paynes to light from your horse and goe on your feete as well as your neighbours For the Apostle speaketh that of all Christians which you restraine to Priests and moueth the parties striuing rather to make their brethren arbiters of their quarrelles than to persue one an other before Infidels What grant is this to you in your owne right to bee iudges ouer your brethren in all secular affaires and not onely without their consents to determine their griefes but also to bereaue them of their goods and lands and afflict their bodies yea to pull the sword out of Princes handes take their Crownes from their heades when the rulers are beleeuers as well as the Preachers Do you not know saith S. Paul that the Saincts not onely Priests shal iudge the world If the world then shal be iudged by you speaking to all that were of the church at Corinth are ye vnworthy to iudge the smalest matters He saith not it was their right to iudge secular matters but they were worthy to bee trusted with them whom God would trust with greater and shewing that hee spake this of the people not of the Priests he saith If then you haue any iudgementes concerning the thinges of this life make euen the contemptible in the church your iudges Hee saith not God hath made them your iudges but rather thaÌ„ your contending brabling about earthly things which you professe to contemn should be knowen to Ethniks such as hate deride both Christ you your selues make the meanest of your brethren whom you will your iudges Nowe ioyne your conclusion ergo the Pope hath authority to dispose the goods lands and liues of all the faithâ—ul euen of Princes theÌ„selues be they neuer so iust or religious Magistrates and see what a non sequitur you conclude out of S. Pauls wordes Phi. The Primatiue church vnderstood this place of Priests and Bishops as appeareth by Sainct Augustine complaining of the tumultuous perplexities of other mens causes in secular matters to the which troubles sayth he the Apostle hath fastened vs. 1. Corinth 5. The like hee witnesseth of S. Ambrose at Millan And S. Gregory reporteth the same of himselfe at Rome Theo. Trueth it is the Bishoppes of the Primatiue church were greatly troubled with those matters not as ordinarie iudges of those causes but as arbiters elected by the consent of both parties And I coulde requite you with Gregories owne wordes of the same matter in the same place Quod certum est nos non debere which it is certaine we ought not to do but yet I thinke so long as it did not hinder their vocation function though it were troublesome vnto them they might neither in charitie nor in dutie refuse it because it tended to the preseruing of peace loue amongest meÌ„ And the Apostle had licenced all men to choose whom they woulde in the church for their iudges no doubt meaning that they which were chosen shoulde take the paynes to heare the cause and make an ende of the strife But it is one thing to make peace between brethren as they did by heaping their griefes with consent of both sides and an other thing to claime a iudiciall interest in those causes in spite of mens heartes Which wrong you shoulde not offer the least of your brethren much lesse may you
three admonitions and the last publike after the which if that take not place we shal be excused before God if we no longer accept him that did vs wrong in the number of our brethren Let him be to thee as an Ethnike and a Publicane that is sayth S. Augustine Noli illum deputare iam in numero fratrum tuorum nec ideo tamen salus eius negligenda Do not accompt him in the number of thy brethren and yet his saluation must not bee neglected For the Ethnikes themselues that is heathen men and Pagans wee doe not recken to bee our brethren and yet we seeke to saue them By this you may doe well to erect a Court where euery subiect may sewe his Prince for priuate iniuries and to make your selues Iudges of all such matters that if the Prince refuse your order you may take his Crowne from him Is not this thinke you good diuinitie for a Christian Common-wealth Phi. If hee that will not heare the Church in priuate offences betweene man and man must bee taken and vsed as an heathen how much more he that will not heare nor obey the Church in publike and haynous sinnes against God Theo. Take the place howe you will of priuate or publike iniuries or sinnes against man or against God no such thing is consequent as you would seeme to inferre If hee heare not the Church whosoeuer whensoeuer in what cause soeuer graunt all this that your antecedent may bee the freer from checke or chaunce what will you conclude Phi. He must bee to vs as an heathen Theo. And what then must heathen Princes bee depriued of their Crownes and Scepters Was not Caesar an heathen when our Sauiour willed all men to giue to Caesar the thinges which were Caesars Was hee not an heathen Magistrate before whome Christ stoode when hee sayde Thou couldest haue no power ouer mee vnlesse it were giuen thee from aboue Were they not heathen Princes to whome Peter and Paul required and charged all Christian Princes to bee subiect without all resistance Did not the Church of Christ taught by them so to doe submit her selfe for the space of three hundered yeeres to heathen Princes and those terrible and most bloudie tyrants Phi. We deny not this Theo. You can not If then disobayers of the Church must be vsed no worse than heathens and publicanes ergo they must neither bee spoiled of their goodes nor afflicted in their bodies nor remoued from their seates if they be Princes For these things by Gods Law the Church might not offer to Pagans nor Publicans Phi. This that Christ saith if he heare not the Church let him be to thee as an Ethnicke and a Publicane is by the iudgement of S. Augustine more grieuous than if he were slaine with the sword consumed with fier or torne with wilde beastes Theo. And why because the iudgement of God to the which he is reserued shall bee more heauie to him than any humane torments can be And this maketh rather against you than with you For if the neglecter of the Church shal be so grieuously punished at Gods hands why doe you challenge to your selues the corporal correcting and chastising of such as disobay the Church And so Saint Augustine expoundeth himselfe It is by and by added saith he by our Sauiour Amen I say vnto you What you bind on earth shall bee bound in heauen that we should vnderstand how grieuous a punishment it is to bee left vnpunished by man and to be reserued to the iudgement of God Phi. The Church hath decreed that heretikes shall not beare rule ouer Catholikes and this voice of the Church all men are bound to heare vnlesse they will be counted for Pagans and Infidels Theo. First the Church can make no such decree next the Church of Christ neuer made any such Decree Phi. May not the Church make that Decree Theo. Shee may not Her power concerneth the soules of men and not their bodies and neuer goeth beyond the word and Sacraments Shee may not intermeddle with the temporal states and inheritances of Priuate men against their willes much lesse with the thrones and swords of Princes The Church cannot giue leaue that children shall disobay their Parents nor seruants their Masters nor weomen their husbandes because God hath already commanded they shall obay whose precepts the Church is with al reuerence to receiue and with all diligence to obserue and not to frustrate or hinder the least iote of his heauenly will and Testament If any particular places or persons attempt the contrarie they cease to be the Church of GOD in that they wilfully reiect and change the worde of God S. Augustine saith well Non debet ecclesia se Christo praeponere The Church may not preferre her selfe before Christ. Neither may we beleeue the true Churches them selues vnlesse they say and doe those things that are consonant to the Scriptures Yea we must accurse the Angels in heauen if they should do otherwise The whole Church oweth the same dutie to all and euery the precepts of God that ech priuate person doth And therfore shee may not dissolue nor disappoint the least of them Now the Church her selfe is commanded by the mouth of Christ and his Apostles to honor and obay Princes For these precepts be general touch the whole church Giue to Caesar the things that be Caesars Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers Submit your selues to the king as the chiefest For so is the will of God neither Monke Priest Prelate Pope Euangelist or Apostle exempted as in the place where I haue already shewed Ergo shee hath no right to dishonour or depose Princes nor to licence their subiects to resist them at her will and on her warrant which is the grounde that you build on Phi. They be but flatterers of Princes that so say or heretikes that so thinke that the ministers of Christes most deare spouse of his very mysticall bodie his kingdome house on earth whom at his dâ—parture hence he did indowe with most ample commissioÌ„ and sent foorth with that authoritie that his father before gaue vnto him haue no power ouer Princes to denounce or declare them to be violators of Gods and the Churches Lawes nor to punish them either spiritually or temporally not to excommunicate them nor to discharge the people of their oth and obedience towards such as neither by Gods Law nor mans a true Christian may obay Theo. If we knewe not your accustomed brauerie you might somwhat trouble vs with your insolent vanities but now we haue so good experience of your fierce lookes and faint harts that we neede not feare your force Bring somwhat besides your own conceit that the Pope may depose Princes and then call vs flatterers and heretikes at your pleasure If not take heede you proue not presumpteous and stately rebels against God and man I winne you be the
ministers of Christs spouse and kingdom no more than his Apostles were if so much and your commission is no larger than theirs if it be so large and yet the Apostles themselues had no power to depose Princes but submitted their bodies and liues to the powers which God had ordained and taught Christes most deare spouse his very bodie mystical to do the like and shee did so not offering any example of resisting and deposing Princes for a thousand yeres after shee first receiued at her husbands mouth a charge to honour them and in earthly things to obay them As for your Episcopall power ouer Princes if that be it you seeke for and not to take their kingdomes from them I tolde you before if they breake the Law of God you may reproue them if they heare you not you may leaue them in their sinnes and shut heauen against them if they fall to open heresie or wilfull impietie you may refuse to communicate with them in prayers and other diuine duties yea you must rather yeeld your liues with submission into their hands than deliuer them the word and sacraments otherwise than God hath appointed farther than this if you will go to the temporall punishing and finall displacing of them from their thrones and to the discharging of the people from the oth and obedience towards such Princes which is the right intent of your Romish censures as your owne woordes import though your cause were neuer so good as yours is starke naught you then turne religion into rebellion patience into violence wordes into weapons preaching into fighting fidelitie into periurie subiection into sedition and in steede of the seruantes of GOD which you might bee by enduring you become the Souldiers of Satan by resisting the powers which GOD hath ordayned Phi. Your threates were somewhat if the Church had not first deposed them Theo. Pull not out your owne eyes with your owne handes The Church hath no such Commission from Christ. Shee can not discharge smaller dueties as of children to their Parents and wiues to their husbandes much lesse greater as subiection othe and loyaltie to Princes Say if you dare that the Preceptes of subiection and submission vnto Princes in the sacred Scriptures doe not binde Bishoppes as well as others If they doe then marke what mockeries you make of the woorde of God Let euery soule and therefore euery Bishoppe bee subiect to the higher Powers that you will haue to stande vntill the Bishoppes depose them and take their power from them You must bee subiect the Bishoppes you meane as long as they list For if they like not their Prince by your Doctrine they may displace him Submit your selues to the king as excelling all others but you will bee sure to excell him and when you see your time to make him the meanest amongest the people Giue vnto Caesar the thinges that bee Caesars but if Caesar anger you you take from him goods Landes Scepter sworde life and all O worthie interpreters of Gods heauenly will A fewe such glozes will helpe Christ himselfe out of his kingdome such cunning you haue to defeate the commaundementes of the holy Ghost and to spoyle innocent and Christian Princes of their Crownes when you lyst to displace them Phi. They bee your foolish additions and not ours Theo. Auoyde the textes which wee bring without these or the like constructions and take the whole cause for your labour Well you may florish with the name of the Church where I say the Bishoppes and require some causes before Princes shoulde bee deposed which I referre to the discretion of the deposer but in effect your answeres must bee as I report them For what if the Pope offer open wrong to Princes of his owne Religion as hee did to Philippe the Faire King of Fraunce to Frederike the second Germane Emperour and to many others Who shall reuerse his definitiue sentence by your doctrine but himselfe that either for shame may not or for pride will not relent from his error Phi. Therefore wee referre the right of deposing Princes to the Church because wee woulde bee sure to haue it done by Lawe order and iudgement Theo. And that solemne proces of Lawe order and iudgement in your Church which you crake of when all is done is nothing els but the Popes pleasure for hee will bee tied neither to Councell nor Canon farther than standeth with his liking his Decrees be Canons and a reason of his fact may no man aske him by your Lawes and therefore Princes haue a warme sute to depend on such Lawes orders and iudgements As for the Church of Christ she neuer tooke any such thing vpon her neither did shee euer make any Decree that Prelats might depose Princes She endured as well heretikes and Apostataes as Pagans and persecutours many hundred yeeres to the glorious triall of her fayth and eternall reward of her patience Onely Gregorie the 7. Bishop of Rome more than a thousande yeres after Christ in the heighth of his pride and furie gaue the first onset to depose his Lord and master and others after him were easily led to followe his example but to this day neuer christian king nor Realme acknowledged or obeyed that power in the Pope which yet he doth wickedly chalenge as you do wilfully defend Phi. It may please the gentle readers to enforme their consciences partly by that is sayde before and specially by that which followeth Where they shall finde that streight vppon the first conuersion of kinges to the faith as the good and godly haue euer obeyed the Church and submitted themselues to ecclesiasticall censures and discipline so the euill and obstinate could neuer orderly discharge themselues from the same without euident note of iniustice tyrannie and irreligiositie and were either in fine brought to order penance or else to confusion both temporal and eternal Theo. Hee must be very gentle that will enforme his conscience with your bare surmises other enformations you giue none That which is said before is to small purpose that which followeth is to smaller Neuer good nor godly king obeyed the Popes sentence of deposition and besides the Pope neuer Church Councell nor Pastour offered any such wrong to Christian or heathen Princes What you call orderly discharging of themselues I knowe not the wisest and worthiest Princes that those dayes bred neither dissenting in fayth from the Bishop of Rome nor then doubting of his Pastoral headship ouer the Church such was the blindnes of their times yet openly despised and vtterly resisted his arrogant censures in depriuing Princes and howsoeuer by warres conspiracies and treasons hee tyred some of them God giuing Princes for the neglect of his trueth and number of their sinnes into the handes and power of Antichrist yet others bridled and kirbed your holy father himself in such sort that he had small ioy of his enterprise Of their eternall confusion
persons excōmunicate and consequently your applying of scriptures that wee may not salute them nor keepe companie with them is a violent deprauing of these textes and refuted by the manifest practise of Christes Church And because wee bee come so farre I will adde somewhat touching the rest of your wise pretences Constantius Valens Valentinian the younger Anastasius Iustinian Heraclius Constantine the 4. and others were hereticall Princes Iulian an open Apostata and yet the Church of Christ endured serued and obeyed them not in temporall things only but in ecclesiasticall also so farre as their Lawes did not impugne the faith or corrupt good manners Phi. You inferre vpon our examples which we can auoyde when wee wil but you answere them not Theo. Our illation which you shall neuer auoyd proueth your examples to conclude for vs and not against vs. You shewe that Princes were remoued from the Sacraments which we graunt but that they were remoued from their kingdomes which we denie that you shewe not and so by your silence you confesse that to bee most true which wee affirme that hereticall and excommunicate Princes must haue their due subiection honour and tribute as they had before they fell to such impieties because they bee perils to their soules not forfeytures of their Crownes Other answere we neede not make you since this will suffice And yet if wee would examine your examples by the pole I coulde take many of them tardie A booke written in Chrysostomes name witnesseth that Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche excluded a Christian Emperour out of the Church for murdering a young Prince committed to him for an hostage and was martyred by the same tyrant for his constancie but this can not stand with the stories of the Church nor with your owne Author whom you alleage for the repentance and submission that you say this Emperour was after brought to by Fabian the generall sheephearde of Christendome Eusebius who wrate an hundreth yeeres before Chrysostome sayth that Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche died in prison vnder Decius an heathen Tyrant After Philip succeeded Decius who for hatred of Philip persecuted the Church in the which persecution Fabianus Bishoppe of Rome was martyred and Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche died in prison after the constant confession of his fayth With him agreeth Nicephorus Babylas sub Decio post confessionem fortiter obitam in vinculis discessit Babylas after hee had made a stout confession of his fayth dyed in Prison vnder Decius If hee died vnder Decius howe coulde hee bee slaine by Philippus or Numerius that were before Decius If hee deceased in Prison how can your Chrysostome say that hee was caried out of Prison to his death and slaine Can you reconcile these thinges and not giue one of your Authors the lie If that declamation were Chrysostomes hee wrate it when he came fresh from the Philosophers schooles as both the stile matter argue and before he was Bishoppe as his owne woordes declare For speaking of the place where Babylas was Bishoppe he sayth Nostri huius gregis curam gerebat he was Pastor of this our flocke and Chrysostome was Bishop of Constantinople not of Antioche Who pursued the saide Emperour by like excommunication for killing his Pastor since the Pastor was aliue after the Emperour was dead and died in prison without any violence neither can you tell neither neede wee care Of Philip Nicephorus sayth no such thing in the place which you quote hee repeateth only that which Eusebius long before reported in these words Of Philip the fame is that fauouring Christ and willing the night before Easter to ioyne with the multitude of Christians in their prayers hee was not suffered so to doe by the Bishoppe that then was vnlesse hee would first acknowledge his sinnes and keepe his place with the repentants Otherwise he could not be admitted because his sinnes were many And they say that hee gladly hearkened to the Bishop and shewed his syncere and religious mynde to God-ward by his deedes The ground of the whole in him that first wrate it is but hearesay the principall matter whether the Prince were remooued from the communion or neuer before admitted to the Lordes table very doubtfull The thing required at his handes was no more but to humble himselfe in the sight of God to whome all Princes must stoope with as great deuotion and submission as the poorest woormes that are on earth The conclusion may bee that Princes then were trayned to Godlinesse but that they were depriued of their kingdomes is a wicked and vngodly suggestion of yours Wee may with as good reason say a Frier many tymes doeth shriue the Pope Ergo a Frier may depose the Pope which I thinke your holy Father will not like of Saint Ambrose is the onely example in all antiquitie which fully proueth that a Bishoppe did prohibite a Prince to enter the Church and to bee partaker of the Lordes table which wee neither deny nor dispraise considering the cause and the manner of the fact The Prince for a tumult raysed by some of the inhabitants of Thessalonica caused his souldiers without finding or searching the doers to murder the people were they straungers or Citizens faultlesse or faultie to the number of seuen thousand After this execution at his next comming to the Church S. Ambrose stepped to the Church dore and sayd Thou seemest O Prince not to vnderstand what a monsterous slaughter of people is committed by thee neither doth rage suffer thee to weigh with thy selfe what thou hast done yet must thou know that from dust we came to dust we shal Let not therfore the brightnes of thy robes hide frō thee the weaknes of flesh that is vnder them Thy subiects are of the same metall which thou art serue the same Lord that thou doest With what eyes therefore wilt thou behold the house of this cōmon Lord with what feete wilt thou tread on his holy pauements Wilt thou reach these hāds dropping yet with the blood of innocents to receiue the most sacred bodie of the Lorde Wilt thou put that precious blood of his to thy mouth which in a rage hast spilt so much Christian blood Depart rather and heape not one sinne on an other neither refuse this bond which the Lord of all doeth ratifie in heauen It is not much and it will restoare thee the health of thy soule This strake the Christian Prince to the heart and turning about hee went home with teares and all the tyme that hee was kept out of the Church as a man in mourning hee woulde not put on his Imperiall robes but that Ambrose commaunded him to put off his kingly robes and to leaue his Imperiall throne in the Chauncel this is your venemous admixtion the storie sayth no such thing You falsely father it on S. Ambrose to make men beleeue that the Bishoppe might as well haue taken the princes scepter and sworde from
captiues and pray to the Lord for it for in the peace thereof shall you haue peace Which Tertullian witnesseth the christians did in all their publike assemblies Wee call vpon the euerlasting God for the health of our Emperours alwaies beseeching God to sende euerie of them long life happie raigne trustie seruantes valiant souldiers faithfull counsellours orderly subiectes and the worlde quiet and what soeuer people or Prince can wish for Examine your selues how farre you be from the innocencie and integritie of Christes church They wished all happinesse to heathen Princes and praied for the securitie of their liues and prosperitie of their states You curse and ban christian Princes and lay plots not onely for enimies to inuade them but for subiectes to shake off the yoke and shorten the daies of their naturall and lawfull Princes Phi. The church of Christ praied for her Princes if they were Pagans but not if they were heretikes Theo. What was Constantius a Pagan or an heretike Phi. An Arian Theo. For him the church praied Phi. For his conuersion Theo. For his health raigne and welfare Phi. Heretikes perhaps like himselfe did Theo. I say Catholiks Phi. It was then at the beginning of his raigne before his impietie was notorious Theo. About you fetch and all will not serue This testimonie that the church praied for Constantius though an heretike was giuen by a Councell of catholike Bishoppes in the 21. yeare of his raigne not long before his death Phi. Where finde you that the church praied for him Theo. Reade the two letters which the West Bishops sent from Ariminum to Constantius and see whether it be not cleare In the first thus they say Wee beseech you that you cause vs not to staie from our cures but that the bishops togither with the people seruing God in peace may humblie praie for your health kingdome and safetie in which the diuine Maiestie long preserue you The conclusion of their second letter is this For this cause we beseech your clemencie the second time most religious Lord and Emperour that you command vs to depart to our churches if it so please your godlines before the sharpnes of winter come that wee may make our accustomed praiers togither with the people to the almightie God and our Lord and Sauiour Christ for your imperie as we haue alwaies purposed and now wish to continue The writings of Hilarie and Athanasius to this verie Prince confirme the same We beseech your clemencie to permit saith Hilarie that the people may haue such teachers as they like such as they thinke well of such as they choose let them solemnize the diuine mysteries and make prayers for your safetie prosperitie Athanasius by his prayers made for this prince in the open assemblie of the people cleareth himselfe from hauing intelligence with Magnentius the murtherer of his brother With what eyes could I behold that bloodie homicide or howe coulde I but cal to minde your brothers face whiles I made my praiers for your health Howe coulde I indure to thinke euill of your brother or sende letters to his enimie and not rather pray and beseech God for your welfare which verily I did A witnesse hereof is first the Lord which hath giuen you the whole Empire that was left by your Fathers There can witnesse also with me Felicissimus the captaine of Aegypt Asternis the Earle Paladius the master of your Palace and others My wordes were Let vs pray for the welfare of the most religious Emperour Constantius and presently the whole people with one voice cryed O Christ bee fauorable to Constantius and this crie they continued a long time And appealing to the Emperours owne conscience knowledge You haue good triall that all the christians make their prayers and supplications to God that you may liue in safetie and continuallie raigne in peace And God graunt you O most gracious Prince to liue many yeares Heare you deaffe of yeares and dul of hartes the church of Christ praied for hereticall Princes in the middest of their impietie and tyrannie And when it was but obiected to Athanasius that hee and others wrote letters to one that rebelled and tooke armes against the Prince hee made answere Vincat quaeso apud the veritas ne relinquas suspicionem contra vniuer sam Ecclesiam quasi talia aut cogitentur aut scribantur à christianis potissimum Episcopis I beseech you let truth take place with you and leaue not this suspition vpon the catholike church as though any such things were written or thought on by Christians and especially by Bishoppes Howe farre then were these men from your humours which professe to depose Princes and not onlie licence Subiectes to rebell but incite them to kill their Soueraignes as you did lately Parry with pardon praise and recompence both here and in heauen Phi. They might do this in the beginning of his raigne before hee discouered his heresie Theo. These bee senslesse shiftes Hilarius wrote his booke after the Councell kept at Millan by Constantius and Athanasius his after Liberius was banished For those pointes be mentioned in their writinges and fell out the one immediatly before the other after the Councel of Ariminum And therefore the rathest of these defences came seuenteene yeares after the beginning of Constantius raigne and in the hoatest of his tyrannicall and hereticall persecution as the bookes themselues declare And yet they not onely indured but also obeyed him as their liege Lord and detested all resistance in deede and thought as vnlawfull for Christians and chiefly for Bishops Phi. But when in processe of time some Princes through Gods iust iudgement the peoples sinne were fallen to such contempt of religion as it lightly happeneth by heresie and Apostasie that excommunication being onely but a spirituall penaltie or other ordinarie Ecclesiasticall discipline would not serue then as well Bishops as other godlie persons their owne Subiectes did craue aide and armes of other Princes for their chastisement as most holie and auncient Popes euen in the olde dayes when the Protestants confesse them to haue beene godlie Bishoppes did incite catholike kinges to the same that those whom the spirituall rodde coulde not fruitfullie chastise they might by externe or temporall force bring them to order and repentaunce or at least defende their innocent Catholike Subiectes from vniust vexation Theo. You begin nowe to shewe your selues in your right kinde From the church you leape to the fielde meaning belike as Iulius the seconde did that since Peters keyes wil not pleasure you Paules sworde shall better steede you The side of your booke seemeth to direct vs when and vppon what occasion spirituall Pastours beganne to vse the temporall sword but the text it selfe runneth quite awrie Wee finde there neither time prefixed nor spirituall Pastour named that euer vsed the temporall sworde Are rebellions such trifles with you that you thinke to proue them with
much lesse so great a Prince Truly I prepared to depart for so Montanus your messenger knoweth that vpon the receit of your letters if your grace vouchsafed but to write I might presently bee gone with my readines to obay preuent your rescript For I am not so madde as to thinke I may contradict such preceptes With what forehead then can they say I obaied not powers Neuer recken this man for a resistant that so many wayes protesteth and confirmeth his obedience to Princes learne you rather to follow his submission and draw him not against his own both deeds and wordes to be of your faction Phi. The people of Alexandria were twise or thrise in an vprore about him first vnder Constantius and after vnder Valens Theo. The people of Alexandria were very tumultuous and raised many horrible garboyles both in the Church and common wealth Socrates saith of them Populus Alexandrinus prae alijs populis seditionibus delectatur si quando occasionem seditionis fuerit nactus ad intolerabilia mala prorumpit nec sine sanguine sedatur The people of Alexandria delight in sedition more than other Cities and if at any time they catch any occasion to make a tumult they runne headlong to foule outrages and neuer end but with blood The selfe same report Euagrius giueth of them The people are soone stirred and easilie incited to a tumult most of all others they of Alexandria who by reason of their great number those obscure persons and of all sortes are insolent rash bold and in furie will venter on any thing Lamentable examples whereof you may reade in the stories of the church describing the horrible fights and slaughters that were between the Iewes Gentiles and Christians of that Citie as wel against the trueth as with it And therefore in these populous and tumultuous Cities if you did shew some insurrections of the people for their pastors it would doe you no great good Men haue raised tumults in al ages and that doth iustifie rebellion in you no more than Cains sword dipt in his brothers bloud at the first beginning of the world and neuer since drie doth warrant theeues to take mens liues by the high waies side yea rather lesse for they kill to supplie their needes you to reuenge your grifes they vnhorse priuate men you vnthrowe Princes they rifle howses you spoile kingdomes they fly vpon the fact you stand to the defence of it before the whole world Farre from this affection were S. Basil and S. Ambrose as euen now wee saw and Athanasius as farre if you dare trust him on his oth if not you shall shift him neerer by his acts When he saw the people of his Church grudge at the Emperours precept to remoue him from his seat and readie to take weapon in hand hee departed the citie Under Valens the people of that citie likewise resisted and would not suffer any violence to be offered Athanasius by the Captaines vntill the Emperours pleasure were precisely knowen touching Athanasius In so much that the multitude flocking together and a great hurlie burlie rising in the Citie a sedition was feared When the people some daies after was appeased Athanasius by night closely conueigheth himselfe out of the Citie Others saie that foreseeing the rashnes of the multitude and fearing least he should seeme to be the author of that euill which might ensue he hid him selfe all that time in his fathers tumbe Thus when hee might haue beene defended by the people hee would not and because they suffered him not to depart from them by day hee frale from them by night and left his Bishopricke to be disposed by the prince The like did Chrysostome in his troubles For when the people knew of his deposition they brake out into an vprore and would not suffer those that had it in charge from the Emperour to carrie him into banishment Chrysostom fearing least any other crime should bee fastned on him either that he did not obay the Emperour or that he stirred the people to sedition the third day after his depriuation priuilie leaueth his Church and yeeldeth himselfe to be caried into exile So that by S. Chrysostomes iudgement it is first a fault in a Bishop not to obay the Prince next it is an other fault to stirre the people to sedition be the cause neuer so good as Chrysostomes was not badde Phi. Likewise against Valens the Arrian Emperour Petrus successour to Athanasius and brother to S. Basil did seeke to the Pope of Rome for succour as al other afflicted Bishoppes and Catholikes euer did Theo. The Bishop of Rome in those daies was neither so mightie that he could nor wicked that he would assist subiects with armes against their Soueraignes Peter Bishop of Alexandria brought letters from Damasus Bishop of Rome allowing his election and Confirming the same the people vpon that spying their time displaced Lucius an Arrian and receiued Peter their right Bishoppe Phi. And what was this but resistance to the Prince Theo. Resist they might and did but not with armes Phi. Which way then Theo. By refusing his communion disobeying his iurisdiction and withdrawing their duties from him yeelding the same to Peter as to their lawful and true Bishop Phi. Socrates sayth the people taking courage expelled Lucius and set Peter in his place Theo. They might driue him away and make him forsake the Citie though not with armes But whatsoeuer the people did against Lucius in their heate hauing as I noted before vnto you out of the same writer a very sharp and seditious humour and being miserably handled by Lucius as scourged with whippes their flesh torne with hookes and diuersly tormented with fire vnto death the letters of Damasus incited them to no such thing but onely approued the election of Peter Phi. But Peter it shoulde seeme allowed the people in their enterprise for by their tumult he recouered his Bishopricke Theo. You must not imagine rebellions where none are written The people draue Lucius from the See being an intruder an heretike and a murderer other tumult the Storie doth not mention Phi. The Prince had placed Lucius there Theo. The election of Bishops in these dayes belonged to the people and not to the Prince and though Valens by plaine force placed him there yet might the people lawfully reiect him as no Bishoppe and cleaue to Peter their right Pastor Phi. Might they reiect him with armes Theo. I said not so Phi. But so they did Theo. That must you proue we find no such thing in the Storie neither of Socrates nor Sozomene Phi. Socrates sayth they expelled him Theo. But not with armes Phi. Do you thinke hee would yeeld without force Theo. Do you thinke any great force needed for a whole Citie to expell one man But why come you with thoughts when you should bring vs proofes That hee was expelled wee graunt but whether
to Gregorie it is high tyme you begin to awake and remember your selfe that for sixe hundreth yeeres you haue not nor can not shew vs any one example where heretical Prince was deposed or subiect allowed to beare armes against his Soueraigne Which is a sufficient conuiction that Pagans and heretikes were all this while honoured obeyed and endured by the Church of Christ if they were Princes Or if that collection bee not good heare Saint Augustines confession of him that was the very worst of them I meane Iulian the Apostata and learne that they which suffered and obeyed him woulde neuer resist nor rebell against any Iulianus extitit infidelis Imperator nonne extitit Apostata iniquus Idolatra Milites Christiani seruierunt Imperatori infidels Vbi veniebatur ad causam Christi non agnoscebant nisi illum qui in caelo erat Quando volebat vt idola colerent vt thurificarent praeponebant illi Deum Quando autem dicebat producite aciem ite contra illam gentem statim obtemperabant Distinguebant Dominum aeternum a Domino temporali tamen subditi erant propter Dominum aeternum etiam Domino temporali Iulian was an vnbeleeuing Emperour was hee not an Apostata an oppressour and an Idolater Christian souldiers serued that vnbeleeuing Emperor When they came to the cause of Christ they would acknowledge no Lord but him that is heauen When hee woulde haue them to worshippe Idoles and to sacrifice they preferred God before their Prince But when he said goe foorth to fight inuade such a nation they presently obeyed They distinguished their eternall Lorde from their temporall and yet were they subiect euen vnto their temporal Lorde for his sake that was their eternall Lord and master The like testimonie your Law bringeth out of S. Ambrose Iulian the Emperour though hee were an Idolater had yet vnder him Christian souldiers to whom when hee sayd goe fight for the defence of the common-wealth they did obey him but when hee sayde goe fight against the Christians then they regarded the Emperour in heauen before him Phi. The holy Bishoppes might most lawfully and so sometymes they did excommunicate the Arrian Emperours and haue warranted their Catholike subiects to defend themselues by armes against them But they alwayes did not so because they had no meanes by reason of the greater forces of the persecutours As there no question but the Emperours Constantius Valens Iulian and others might haue beene by the Bishoppes excommunicated and deposed and all their people released from their obedience if the Church or Catholiques had had competent forces to haue resisted Theo. Uayne shiftes you haue brought vs many but none vayner than that which here you broche You vndertooke to shewe vs auncient examples that Princes were iudicially deposed by Priestes and impugned with armes by their owne subiectes You bee nowe come to the vttermost pitch of Antiquitie and finding your selfe not able to bee as good as your worde you tell vs that though Bishoppes did it not yet they might most lawfully haue warranted their Catholike subiectes to defend themselues by armes against the Arrian Emperours But sir you were to bring vs their examples what they did not your vants what they might haue done The point we began with was what Bishops in this case might doe You to shew what they might doe promised vs the particulars of auncient ages what they had doone and hauing perused six hundered yeeres after Christ and perceauing no such deede doone you come with a returne at the last that though they did it not yet they might haue doone it whereas we rather collect they might not doe it because they did it not For had it beene most lawful as you say we can proue it most needfull they should haue doone it The blaspheming of Christ the murdering of his saincts the seducing of many thousand soules which things were not only committed by their meanes but also maintained by their power that were suffered to beare and vse the sword for the strengthning and establishing of their error were causes sufficient to moue the Bishops to doe what they lawfully might to preuent these mischifes and saue the Bishops you cannot from the blemish of permitting and increasing the pestilent heresies of Arius and others if they did not what they might in dewtie to withstand and depose those Princes that were the chiefe Patrones of those impieties Phi. There is no question but the Emperours Constantius Valens Iulian and others might haue beene deposed by the Bishops and all their people released from their obedience if the Church or Catholiques had had competent forces to haue resisted Theo. You falsely and wickedly slaunder the Martyrs of Christs church when you auouch they wanted not will but power to resist their Princes The Christians had forces sufficient and many fit opportunities offered them to set those hereticall Emperours besides their Seates and woulde not Constans the West Emperour was of power sufficient to haue repressed Constantius his brother for feare of whom Athanasius was restored to his Bishoprike by Constantius and with whom if the Catholikes of the East would haue but ioyned themselues it had beene most easie for them to haue taken the Scepter from Constantius When Constans was slaine Magnentius the Tyrant surprised all Italie subdued Affrica and Lybia and had Fraunce in subiection and the souldiers of Illyricum erected Betranion against Constantius in which distresse if the Christians would but haue forsaken Constantius and not ventered their liues for him he must haue beene depriued of the West Empire if not of the East also Athanasius being charged that he with others secretly by letters incited this Magnentius to take armes against the Emperour answered as I shewed you before Cast not this suspition O Emperour vpon the whole Church as though such things were written or thought on by Christian men and specially by Bishopes The like occasion was offered the Christians to displace Constantius when Gallus who was both Cesar and next to the Crowne beganne to aduance himselfe to the Empire but they tooke it as you see by Athanasius wordes to be no Christian mans part to thinke on bearing armes against their Emperour though an hereticke Of the Christian souldiers vnder Iulian you hearde S. Augustine say they serued their temporall Lorde though an Idolater and an Apostata not for lacke of force to resist but for respect of their euerlasting Lorde in heauen Otherwise the Christian souldiers had Iulian in his voyage against the Persians farre from home and from helpe and might haue done with him what they woulde and yet they chose rather to spend their liues for him than to lift vp their handes against him and the Christian worlde in his absence stirred not against him but with patience endured his oppression and with silence expected his returne Phi. They were heathen souldiers that were with Iulian in the Persian warres Theo.
adherents but by the confession of his aduersaries that proueth not his fact to bee good or his enterprise lawfull We must balance thinges by the Lawes of God and not by the fansies and affections of men and yet touching the Person if the syncerest of your own side may bee trusted I see no such cause to commend him Phi. This Pope whome they specially hate because as it may be thought he was the first man that authentically condemned the Berengarians heresie and in open disputation refuted it though certaine of the said Emperours flatterers and enemies of the Sea Apostolike as the fashion of our heretiques is at this day wrote slaunderous libels against him yet was hee a very notable good man and learned and did suffer whatsoeuer hee did suffer for meere iustice in that hee did godly honorably and by the dutie of his Pastorship whatsoeuer hee did against the said Emperour whereof we could alleage all the best writers of those dayes or neere that tyme but that wee should be tedious Theo. Whatsoeuer Berengarius heresie was the recantation which your holy Father with his learned aduise prescribed him is a very wicked and palpable error If Hildebrand were the author of that condemnation we enuie not his praise A lewder or grosser follie was neuer vttered with tongue No maruaile to see you so forward in affirming that Gregorie the 7. was a very notable good man and learned and did suffer whatsoeuer he did suffer for meere iustice and did Godly and honourablie and by the dewtie of his Pastorship whatsoeuer hee did against the Emperour he was the first Pope that euer serued or fitted your rebelling humour Your case and his are all one and therefore vnlesse you should praise him you must dispraise your owne doings which you will not you be so farre entered into these Italian policies and perceiue them to bee so profitable for your Rhemish monarchie But Sirs if you were asked vnder benedicite whether S. Peter did better in submitting him selfe to Nero and charging al others to do the like or Pope Hildebrand in taking the crown from Henry the fourth and dischargeing his subiects which would you preferre The mild and Christian submission of Peter suffering death at Neroes hands or the disdainful and arrogant stomacke of Gregorie the seuenth making the Emperour with his Queene and young Prince in extreme frost and snowe waite his leisure three dayes barefoted and in woollen at the gates of Canusium whiles himselfe was warme in a Ladies chamber and notwithstanding this rare example of humilitie in a Prince practising a generall reuolt of his Nobles and people from him and causing an other to be chosen in his place and licencing his owne subiects seruants and sonnes to beare armes against him and filling the Christian world with vnnaturall and parricidial warres and bloudshed I knowe you dare not in plaine termes disgrace Sainct Peter but in deedes euident to the eyes of all men you take part with Pope Hildebrand against Sainct Peter extolling and praising him for a very notable good Pope that first gaue this detestable and damnable aduenture He did suffer you say whatsoeuer he did suffer for meere Iustice. It was madde meere Iustice that the Church of Christ for a thousand yeres would not bee so much as acquainted with and a madder imagination of yours that all that refused to bee partakers of Hildebrands wickednesse were flatterers to the Emperour and enimies to the See Apostolike farre better cause haue wee to say that they which conspired with the Pope against their Prince vppon so great submission as Christendome hath not seene the like were DESPISERS OF GOVERNMENT RESISTERS OF POWER and consequently disobeiers of Christ and woorse than hierlings of Antichrist And if you may shake them off that liued in the same age and wrate of things they sawe with their eyes and heard with their eares who smoothed not the vices of men but defended the ordinance of GOD What should bind vs to regard the corrupt and partiall iudgementes of those that came some hundreds after and knew no more of the certaintie of those actions than we do at this instant and were withall so wedded to the Sea of Rome that in respect thereof they did resist as you doe now both the power of man and the trueth of God Phi. We haue for Gregorie the seuenth the graue testimonie of Baptista Fulgosius a noble and learned man that was Duke of Genua aboue an hundred yeeres past which wee shall not let to set downe as wee find it in the Latine Constantissimus habitus est Gregorius septimus Pontifex qui quòd Henricum tertium Imperatorem propter aperta nimis Symoniae crimina pro Pastorali officio reprehendebat grauibus ab eo iniurijs affectus est Itaque iniuriarum magnitudine compulsus Henricum Gregorius vt haereticum Imperij honore priuauit Cum autem Henricus solut ecclesiastica censura non emendatione vitae sed armis quaereret alium creari Pontificem enixus capta vrbe obsidere Gregorium caepit Quae mala cum Gregorius pateretur nunquā tamen a iusto proposito dimoueri potuit That is Gregorie the seuenth was notable for his constancie who for that according to his Pastorall charge hee had admonished Henrie the third Emperour to leaue his knowen impietie of Symonie was by manifold intolerable iniuries vexed by the same Emperour and by the greatnes of his wickednes was compelled to depriue him as an heretique of his Imperiall dignitie But Henry seeking not by amendment of his life but by armes to bee absolued from the censure hee went about to set vp a newe Pope and beseeged the Citie of Rome and brought the Pope into great distresse In all which miseries Gregorie coulde neuer bee remoued from his iust purpose So hee writeth of the parties both And of the horrible crimes for which the Emperour was most iustly in the sight of all good men deposed Theo. Truth dependeth not vpon nobilitie but sinceritie Noble men haue their affections and ouersightes in writing as well as others Baptista Fulgosius liued foure hundreth yeeres after Gregorie the seuenth and had no better intelligence of the cause than wee haue at this day In his banishment hee collected certaine examples out of such bookes as came to his handes to spend the tyme ease his miserie but hee tooke not vppon him to iudge between your stories which were credible and which not All that hee sayth of Gregorie the seuenth is Constantissimus habitus est he was counted very constant could neuer be remoued from the purpose which he thought to be iust the rest is a report of the fact no debating of the cause And had this exiled Person giuen greater commendation to Gregorie than hee doeth euery Noble mans fansie that is or hath beene these fiue hundreth yeeres in Christendome must not appoint what power
were despised when they trauelled for peace Phi. But say no more than you wil proue Theo. Your owne friends shal heare me recorde that I doe not faine The griefe that Adrian the fourth conceiued againâ—â— Frederike the first the occasious therof though I might report out of Radeuicus that thâ—â— liued yet had I rather take them out of Adrians owne words in his epistle to Frederik which are these By the word of truth we are taught that euery one which exalteth himself shal be brought low Wherfore we maruel not a litle at your discretion that you giue not S. Peter the holy Church of Rome that reuerence which you ought For in your letters directed vnto vs you set your name before ours which is a note of presumption I will not say arrogancie What shal I speak of the fidelitie which you promised confirmed with an oth to S. Peter to vs in what sort you perform it when as you require homage exact fealty of them which be gods the sons of the most high euery one of them I meane the Bishops closing their haÌ„ds within yours wheÌ„ you receiue it setting your self against vs you shut not only the churches but the cities of your kingdom against the Cardinals that came froÌ„ our side Repent therefore repent we aduise you lest whiles you couet the thinges which you should not you loose that which you haue For the better discerning of the Popes ambitious enuious spirit you shall hear with what mildnes lenitie the prince made his answere Whatsoeuer regality your PopedoÌ„ hath you gat it by the gift of princes WhereupoÌ„ when we write to the Bishop of Rome by right by ancient vse we set our name first Looke your records if before you did not marke this which we say there you shall find it Of them whom you call gods I winne by adoption since they hold part of our regalities why should we not exact both homage and an oth of fealtie whereas our master yours holding nothing of any earthly king but bestowing all good things on all men paied tribute to Caesar for himselfe for Peter gaue you an example so to do saying Learne of me for I am meeke and humble in hart Let therefore your Bishops either restore vs our temporalities or if they finde them so profitable that they will not let them giue to God that which is Gods and to Cesar that which is Cesars due To your Cardinals our churches are shut our cities not open because we see them to be no Preachers but spoilers no makers of peace but snatchers of mony no reformers of meÌ„ but insatiable scrapers of gold WheÌ„ we shal see them to be such as the church needeth that is bringing peace lightning countries assisting the humble in equity we our selues wil not fail to appoint for them necessary prouisioÌ„ maintenaÌ„ce And to tel you truth you giue vs cause to suspect your humility meekenes which is the nource of al vertues when you quarel with temporall persons about these matters which make nothing to religioÌ„ We caÌ„ not choose but send you this answere when we see the detestable beast of pride to haue crept vnto Peters seate This reply though grouÌ„ded on nothing but manifest reason trueth did so sting the Pope his Cardinals that they ioyned in a generall conspiracy with WilliaÌ„ king of Scicily verie neere all the cities of Italy to crosse the Emperour to the vtmost of their powers and when the Pope died to choose none but one of the same faction that should continually pursue the Prince both with sedition and excommunication till they gate the vpper hande of him Iohannis Cremonensis a writer of that time saieth In this conspiracie the greater part of the Cardinals William king of Scicilie and almost all the cities of Italie bounde them-selues with many Barons and other greater men and a mighty masse of monie was giuen to Pope Adrian that hee shoulde excommunicate the Emperour And farther hee saieth hee learned of credible men of Millan and Brixia that were parties in this action that the conspiracie with Pope Adrian was so fastned with othes that none of them might leaue the rest or seeke the Emperours fauour without the consent of all and if the Pope departed this life they should choose a Cardinall of the same confederacie The reward which Adrian receiued at Gods hand as that writer sayth was this that A few daies after he had denounced his excommunication against the Emperor at Anagnia as he walked abroad to refresh himself came to a spring to tast of the water a flie by report entred his mouth and stucke so fast to his throate that by no helpe of Physitions it could be remoued til hee gaue vp the ghost Phi. Nauclerus you knowe doubteth of this storie because the Italian writers make no mention of it Theo. That is no reason to disproue the writer You know what Cuspinian a man of your owne side saith of your Italian stories in the liues of both the Frederikes Merula an Italian not knowing the thinges which Emperour Frederike did but as following Blondus or Platina doth fouly erre many times And againe The Italians as Blondus Platina both of one age complaine of the want of stories They disdayned to reade the chronicles of the Germanes the which because they sauored not of the Romane eloquence they reiected and missing in many pointes they affirm very often lies for truth Some of them offended with the whole Nation of Germanie call all the Germane Princes that were Emperors barbarians And to flatter their Popes they charge the Germane Princes with many moe vices than they had Want of other writers before them hatred of the Germans whose Princes often wasted Italie with fire and sword and a naturall desire to magnifie the Pope made the Italians disdaine to seeke the truth or to dissemble it when they saw it Phi. Did not the Germanes thinke you beare affection towardes their Princes and spite the Pope for accursing and impugning their Emperours Theo. I alleadge none but Priests Monks Abbats that were in the Popes danger and not in the Princes and such as otherwise did honour the Pope depend vppon his See saue when he offered so open wrong and violence that no Prince coulde indure it But we wade further than we neede Nauclerus doubteth whether AdriaÌ„ were choked with a flie but of the conspiracie which is the thing that I purposed neither hee nor you can doubt It was complained of by the Cardinals that refused their societie it was confessed by the citizens of Millan it was proued in the Councell of Pauia it was reported by letters both from the Prince from the * Bishop of Babenberge to Eberhard the Archbishop of Saltzburge it was verified by the sequele I mean by the wilful resistaÌ„ces which the coÌ„federat
the Popes ayde with excoÌ„munications and rebellions that Frederike beganne to hearken to a peace and William of Sicilie hauing no children maried his sister to the Emperours sonne called afterward Henrie the sixt and father to this Frederike that wee speake of as willing the kingdome shoulde returne to the Emperours line who otherwise layd a chalenge to it When William of Sicilie was dead Henrie the sixt by maine force of armes subdued Sicilie and was receiued into Falernum the chiefe towne of Sicilie as a conquerour So that Frederike the second had a double right to the kingdome of Sicilie either as heire to his vncle in which case the Popes pension was not extinguished or els as Emperour by reason his Father did recouer it by conquest reunite it to the Empire Either of these tytles is sufficient to defend his doings in Sicilie As Emperour hee might claime it afore the Pope from the Pope for so did Conrade the third and Otho the fourth As king of Sicilie hee was to pay but a pension not to be the Popes Uasal and if the Pope should offer him any wrong he might lawfully repell force by force and punish the people of the land that would not obey him as their king assist him to hold his owne The Popes allegation therefore against Frederike for compelling the subiects of Sicilie to continue their obedience notwithstanding the Popes interdict is very friuolous Frederike herein did no more than any Prince might and would doe in the like state And graunt he had somewhat abused the kingdome of Sicilie which he did not is that a cause to remoue him from the Empire Phi. The other three be the principall causes Theo. Two of them namely heresie and periurie be starke false the thirde was arrogance in the Pope to make it sacrilege to touch a Cardinall not wickednes in the Prince to take them as enemies that labored to defeat him of his Crowne Phi. You woulde take the Princes part wee see were his cause neuer so euill Theo. You doe take the Popes part wee see though the sentence hee gaue bee neither agreeable to Gods Law nor mans Lawe nor his owne Canons Phi. Howe proue you that Theo. Nay it is hie tyme for you to come forth with your proofes or els wise men wil discerne in Innocentius the image of Antichrist proudly iudging in his Consistorie without regarde of God or man A professed aduersarie to sit iudge alone in his owne quarrel and for causes apparently false or friuolous to proceede to the depriuation of a Prince yea the greatest Prince in Christendome and in right his Soueraigne Lord and master neither admitting his proxie nor hearing what exceptions he could take to his accusers but appointing him to come in Person out of his owne Realme into an other princes Dominion and to pronounce him guiltie of all that was obiected being neither present nor heard for that he refused to put his life into his enemies handes If this bee iustice the wild Irish and Sauage Indians that know not what belongeth to cyuil societie or humane reason may be iudges as well as the Pope Phi. If the crimes were notorious and the Prince refused iudgement why should not the Pope proceede against him in his wilful absence Theo. The prince sent to shew the reason of his absence his atturnees to deale for him as farre as should be needful but that the Pope would not expect their coÌ„ming no not the space of three daies at the petition of most of the Nobles Prelates that were in his councel The crunes pretended to be notorious were conceiued in great words as periurie sacrilege heresie tyrannie but the facts coÌ„mitted by Frederike as breaking peace with the Pope that tooke part in the field with his rebels against him deteyning the Cardinals that went to work his deposition and fought with his fleete constraining his subiects in Sicilie to acknowledge him for their king were temporal priuate quarrels directly concerning the Popes atteÌ„pts against the Prince and the Princes right to defend himself which your holy father of his accustomed presumptioÌ„ called periury sacrilege tyrannie being the aduerse part gaue iudgement in his own cause as liked best his own displeased greeued stomack Now how this could stand with the prescription of diuine or moderation of humane lawes we would gladly learn Phi. Your refuge wil be to impugne the Popes power which was theÌ„ confessed though the hastynes of his censure were somwhat misliked The. By whom was it confessed Phi. By al men euen by Frederike himselfe Theo. You must make truer reports before you giue true iudgements Frederike in his epistle to the king of Fraunce shewing this sentence by all lawes to be voide alleageth that though the Bishop of Rome had full power in spiritual things so as he might bind or loose sinners whatsoeuer yet it is no where read that the Pope by the warrant of gods or mans law may remoue the Empire when he list or iudge temporally of kings princes to depriue them of their crownes The cities people of Italie by that opeÌ„ eger faction of Guelfs Gibelines which dured euen to our age shewed how many there were that tooke with the Prince against the Pope notwithstanding the Popes excommunications depriuations which you would so faine vphold at this day This faction of Guelfs ayding the Pope against the prince and Gibelines standing with the prince against the Pope grew so general sayth Nauclerus that no citie no towne no people remained free from that infectionâ— Citie hath waged warre with Citie prouince with prouince One halfe of the people with the other from that time to this our age for no cause else but for this faction some helping their prince against the Pope some the Pope against their prince For 200. yeres vpward saith Blondus euen to these our times they pursued eche other with such rage vnder these vnluckie names that the Italians wrought greater mischief among theÌ„selues than before they suffered at the hands of barbarous nations Towne against towne Countrie against Countrie the people of eche place diuided among them-selues fought together for no cause but for this dissention and their victories had no ende nor meane but bloodshed and vtter subuersion neither onely neighbours and cohabitants but those that dwelt fiue hundreth miles asunder euen the poorer sort and beggars as wel as rich and mightie men when they met eche other coÌ„mitted al crueltie one side on the other This flame your holy father kindled in his owne Coâ—ntrie with his rash proceeding against the Emperour so wide it skattered so loÌ„g it endured so fiercely it raged amoÌ„gst your own Deuotionists and yet you would make the worlde beleeue the Popes power to depriue princes was neuer doubted of but in these our dayes and by men of our side What Germanie thought of
as soone as the Pope by his letters willed them Theo. The one halfe of the electours were Bishops that neither durst nor would abide the Popes furie in the other halfe it was easie to finde one that would be seduced displeased or some way corrupted to go to the choice of a new but that the elect of theirs was slaine the same yere in the siege of Vlme William of Holland that was choseÌ„ next after him had as short a dispatche by those that tooke part with Fredericke And had you not beene more actiue with your poisons than lucklie with your elections Fredericke had sped them faster than you had named them Phi. His own bastard stisled him Theo. But his Antagonists first drenched him so Cuspinian sayth The Popes hatred against the Prince ceased not whom he night and day deuised how to destroy after the conspiracie of Theobaldus Franciscus Gulielmus of San Seuerine and Pandulphus was detected who coÌ„fessed they were set on by the Pope as Peter de Vines witnesseth in his second booke tenth thirtieth epistle Yet at last the prince could not be so watchful but when he returned to Apulia hee was poysoned And lying very sicke of the potion which he tooke and beginning at length to recouer he was stifled of Manfrede his base sonne with a pillow as he lay in his bed Thus you made away that worthie Emperour Frederike the second and these bee the weapons of your Romish warfare against Princes excommunications rebellions poysons Phi. You raiâ—e without all reason Theo. I speake no more than trueth Your owne examples shall iustifie the same Omitte Henry the seuenth called Henrie of Lucenburg whome a Dominican Frier poysoned in the chalice Lodouike of Bauaria and king Iohn of this lande were they not thus persued and thus dispatched Beginne with Lodouike the fourth What cause had Iohn the 22. to curse and banne him and to condemne him for an heretike Phi. Platina telleth you he called himselfe Emperour without the authoritie of the See of Rome and ayded the deputies of Italie to get the citie of Millan and to be Lords ouer it Theo. Two shamefull sinnes I assure you He had foure voyces when he was first chosen in contentioÌ„ with Frederike of Austria Auentinus saith he had fiue after in the field he tooke the other elect prisoner and so ended the strife why then should he not take himselfe to be lawful Emperour Phi. The fourth voice which did the deede was cunningly stollen For where the Marquesse of Brandenburge then absent wrate his letters for Frederike his name was rased out and Lodouikes conuaied in Theo. Sir by your leaue that is a legend The marquesse of Brandenburge sent his substitute with a general coÌ„mission to choose as hee sawe cause though as some said his meaning were that Frederike should haue his voyce and that instruction hee had giuen priuatly to the partie that was sent who deceiued his expectation and named Lodouike The second obiection is more absurd For Lodouike aided those that stoode for the safetie of the Empire against the Popes incourses practises And that since he was chosen Emperour in honour and equitie he was bound to do Phi. He ayded them against the Church Theo. The Church of Christ hath nought to do with the warlike wilful tumults of Popes Phi. He made a new Pope against Iohn the 22. and set him vp as an Idole in Peters chaire Theo. The Pope before that had done the worst he could against Lodouike openly excoÌ„municating him and all his fauourers and appointing him three monethes to renounce the election to the Empire that was made of him and come personally to excuse himselfe of his fact in giuing ayde to heretiques schismatikes and such as were rebels against the Church He also depriued al Clergie men that yeelded the Prince any counsell helpe or fauour And when Lodouike appeared not the Pope accursed him and condemned him of heresie These be the sober and graue proceedings of your holy father which he and his flatterers called the defence and exaltation of the church But the sounder and sincerer of his owne Canonists and schoolemen abhorred as the confusion and desolation of all Godlines Hermannus then lyuing sayth These proceedings against Lodouike were curiously obserued by some but very many reputed them litle worth because as men said they were examined by the Doctours of both Lawes pronounced by them to bee vtterly voyde Yea many famous diuines well commended for their learning and life concluded the Pope to bee an heretike for certaine errors which hee coldly recanted at the houre of his death and Benedictus his successor is reported to haue publikely condemned those erronious opinions Phi. Nothing is so well done that all men like it Theo. It must needes bee euill that so many of your owne side mislike yea which the Pope that came next most of all others misliked For when the kinges of Fraunce and Apulia by their Legates defaced the person of Lodouike and rehearsed what thinges hee did against the Church the Pope replied nay wee did against him Hee would haue come to the feete of my predecessor if hee might haue beene receiued to fauour and that he did hee did it prouoked The Prelates and Princes of Germanie being assembled at Franckforde with their common consent reiected all the Popes iudicial processe against this Emperour as wholy voide and of no validitie the Prince declaring so much by his Imperial decree By the counsell and consent of all the prelats princes of Alemannie assembled at our towne of Francford wee denounce determine these processes of Pope Iohn against vs to bee none in Law and of no strength or force And wee straitly charge and commaund all and euery within the limittes of our Empire of what condition state soeuer that no singular person nor societie presume to obserue the sayde sentences of excommunication and interdiction Where also you may see the protestations and allegations of that Prince against the doings of Pope Iohn taken out of the groundes of your owne Canons and the very same that are defended of vs at this day as warrantable by the sacred Scriptures and auncient order of Christes Church namely these The Prince hath his sword or dominion not from the Pope but only from God The sacred Canons and the Church of Christ prohibite and doe not graunt to the Pope the right of the Empire and power in temporall things The sentence is ipso iure none which is erroneous as when it commandeth the subiect not to obey his superiour or prescribeth any thing against God or the Scripture But it is manifest that Pope Iohn hath coÌ„maunded that our subiectes shall not obey vs to whome all that are in our Empire ought to yeeld alleagance and reuerence by the Lawes of God and man This
hee did vppon conference had with the best learned that were in his age When it was knowen in Germanie what Pope Iohn had decreed Ludouike sayth Auentine consulted the best Lawyers and skilfullest diuines that were in Italie Germanie or France especially the doctors of both lawes and diuines of Bononia and Paris They all wrote back that the actes and decrees of pope Iohn against the Emperour were repugnant to Christian simplicitie and the heauenly Scriptures The men of note and such as wrote against the Pope for this inordinate presumption were Marsilius Patauinus Iohannes Gandauus Andreas Laudensis Vlricus Haugenor Luitpoldus de Babenburg Dante 's Alligerius Occam Bergomensis Michael Caesenas Phi. What Recken you these The most of them were condemned by the Church of Rome for heretiks Theo. They were condemned by the Pope for speaking truth Marsilius booke is extant intituled The defender of peace What error can you charge him with but this that hee wrote against the insufferable pride and ambition of the Pope Dants error for the which he was condemned your friendes affirme to be this for that in his booke of the Monarchie he saide The Romane Empire had no dependance of the Pope in temporall things but only of God Occam the Minorite pursued that argument so farre that he brought the Popes power and his Prelates touching their tēporal dominiō to nothing These were their errors for y◠which the Church of Rome otherwise called the Pope and his Cardinals condemned these learned and innocent men With as good reason you might haue condemned christ and his Apostles for the same causes S. Paul auoucheth the one There is no power but of God and Christ himselfe commaunded the other Kings of nations beare temporall rule You shall not doe so Phi. They held other errors Theo. Euen such an other For this was against the state and pride of Prelates and that touched their cofers and treasures which indeede were their Goddes The Poore Franciscanes beganne to dispute that it was a signe of more perfection and a neerer resemblance to the life which Christ and his Apostles ledde on earth for clergie men to renounce the world and possesse nothing of their owne rather than to nestle themselues i◠the sweetest and richest seates of christendome and t◠heape vp mammon and wealth in such abundance that they were able not only to beard Princes in their Palaces but also shoulder them in the field The ground of their opinion they tooke from your canon Law and your holy father himselfe in erecting the Rule of Frier Frauncis could confesse as much mary when the Emperour in hatred of the Popes hauftines and greedines cast some fauour to the Franciscanes the Pope to match the Prince gaue forth an edict and made it heresie to say that Christ his Apostles possessed nothing in this world which because the Friers impugned in their schooles and sermons the Pope cōdemned them and all their aiders and abetters whereof Lodouike was one for heretikes This is that other heresie for the which Micheal Cesenas Occam and other Franciscanes and Lodouike the Emperour as a Patrone of theirs were impeached which Platina thinketh was scant aduisedly doone by the Pope and his counsellers Pope Iohn saith he set foorth a Decree wherein he declared them to be rebels to the Church of Rome heretikes which affirmed that Christ and his Disciples had nothing of their owne This decree doth scant accord with the sacred Scripture which testifieth in many places that Christ and his Disciples had nothing of their owne Thus your holy father to spite the prince and to reuenge such as opened their mouthes at his sumpteousnes and furiousnes made it heresie to commend humilitie and pouertie Philand That Christ and his Disciples did possesse nothing neither in priuate nor in common this was their error and not as you report it Theo. In deede it is worth the noting howe finely your Holie Father did circumuent them For where they ment that Christ and his Apostles lefte the worlde to follow their vocation and woulde after possesse nothing superfluous neither in priuate nor common but helde themselues satisfied with apparell and foode such as the goodnesse of GOD by the almes of other or by their owne industrie not slacking their function did prouide for them the Bishope of Rome hauing alreadie gotten a good part of the Empire into his hands and daily deuising newe quarels to get more and besides oppressing al Christian Realmes with intollerable taxes and paiments for the maintaining of his warres and furnishing of his other expences which were both needeles and excessiue and knowing by this vrging of christs and his Apostles pouertie which the friers began euerie where to publish how vnlike he should appeare to S. Peter whose successour hee would seem to be peruerted the wordes and sense of the poore friers as if they had taught that the diete and raiment which Christ and his Apostles vsed had not beene their own but wrongfully taken and vniustly withheld from others that were the right owners and with this shifte made it heresie and blasphemie to say that Christ had nothing of his own where the friers were neuer so madde to defend that Christ and his Apostles had no right nor proprietie to the clothes which they ware and meates which they vsed but they rather detested the monstruous wealth and riote of Monckes and Bishops which pretending to forsake the worlde and followe Christ heaped greater riches and wallowed in oftner pleasures than any secular persons which soare when the wretched friers began to touch they were condemned and burned for heretikes These were the principal grifes against Lodouike which the Pope and the Cardinals could neuer digest I meane his resisting their pride and misliking their wealth for these causes when he offered reconciliation and satisfaction that the Christian world might haue rest from those domesticall warres and miseries the Pope would receiue none but on these conditions that the Prince shoulde confesse him selfe guiltie of al those errors and heresies that were laide to his charge that he should resigne the Empire and not resume it without the Popes leaue that he should put himselfe his Children and his goods into the Popes hands to be done withal as should please the Pope Such was the mildnesse of this Romish Sainct that his hart could not be satisfied but with the vtter destruction of the Emperour and his children which when the Princes and Bishops of Germanie perceiued they signified their generall determination to Lodouicke in these wordes Most gratious Lord and Emperour the Princes electours and other the faithfull of your Empire perusing the articles of your submission which the Pope requireth and resteth on with one consent haue decreed them to be conceiued to the subuersion and ouerthrow of the Empire so that neither you nor they by reason of the
citation he refused to come knowing his own wickednes sought to defend himself with armes Alas saith this writer being one of your owne friendes whither is that auncient sanctitie of the Romane Bishoppes vanished whither is that clearnesse of conscience gone which neglecting the threats of Princes built the church not with armes but with the beames of their vertues They refused not Councels but rather frequenting them cleared themselues from such things as they were charged with in full assemblies of their mother the church Behold Iulius who is taken to be the sheepheard giueth no eare to the coÌ„plaint of his sheepe but killeth the weake ones and hee that with his owne blood should purchase them peace doeth what hee can with his curses to increase their trouble And getting the Spaniardes and Venecians to vpholde him sheddeth not teares with Ambrose but displaieth his banners with Iulian whose name he beareth against the church All the Germane Emperours that were depriued by the Pope you haue recited Others perhaps were blasted with his excommunications as Henrie the fifth or not agnised by him for some dislike in their elections as Philip of Sueuia and at his first entraunce Albert of Austria or busied with continuall warres in which the Pope had an oare as Conrade the thirde but iudicially deposed they were not Phi. Philip of Sueuia Otho the fourth that was chosen against him were both deposed by the Pope Theo. Otho the 4. the same which you cal Otho the fifth was rashly aduaunced by the Pope against Philip and as rashly displaced after the death of Philip the right of the Empire being al that while in Friderike the seconde whom the Princes of Almanie by the procurement of Henrie the sixt had chosen to bee their king lying in his cradle and sworne fealtie vnto him and testieth so much vnder their handes and seales to the Emperour his father After whose death when the Princes forgetting their act and oth began to treate of a new election Philip Frederikes vncle fearing least a straunger should be thrust in to the ruine of him-selfe and his nephewe sought to keepe the Empire in his handes during his life or till Frederik came to age This Innocentius the 3. would not suffer but vpbraiding him with the crueltie which his brother father had shewed heaping many absurd some false things against him in his Epistle to Berthold Duke of Zaringia stood on friuolous exceptions to hinder him obiected that he was excoÌ„municated by Celestinus his predecessor whiles he was gouernour in Tuscia yea so great was his malice that he protesteth he wold either take the emperial diademe from Philip or Philip should take the triple crown from him In this rage the Pope caused first Berthold of Zaringia to be chosen king of the Germanes and when he was too weake to incounter Philip he gate Otho the fifth to bee set vp against him whom Philip so long as he liued draue to the wall but being traiterously slaine in his chamber by one that would haue maried his daughter he left Otho in full possession of the Empire in which he continued no long time For two yeares after the Pope fell into sorer hatred of him than euer he had of Philip and after excommunication and depriuation to spite him delt with the Princes of Germany to remember their choice made of Frederike the second when he was but yong and their oth past vnder their seales to Henrie the sixt for the ratifieng of that election and so by the helpe of the French king gate the Germanes to forsake Otho and sticke to Frederike their right and naturall Prince whome in the ende hee pursued with greater disdaine than any of the former in so much that in three and twentie yeares after Frideriks death the Empire was not setled in any lawfull successour The fruites of these stirres as your owne friendes confesse were impietie and all kinde of iniquitie in the Priestes and people flatterie periurie and conspiracie in the Nobles briberie diuision and vnconstancie in the electours onely the Pope vsed them as meanes to increase his wealth augment his pride and procure his ease Then sayeth Vrspergensis beganne euils to bee multiplied on the earth For there sprang discordes deceites treacheries treasons to the destroying and murdering of ech other The spoyling sacking wasting and burning of Countries seditions warres and rapines were openly allowed in so much that euerie man now breaketh his oth and giueth himselfe to these sinnefull mischiefs yea the Priestes are as bad as the people The Princes and Barons of the Land learning the Diuels Art care for no othes violate their faith and confounde all right sometimes forsaking Philip and cleaâ—ing to Otho somtimes contrarie Vpon these tumultes it came to passe that there was skant anie Bishoprike ecclesiasticall dignitie or parish Church which was not litigious and the cause caried to Rome but not with an emptie hande Which made the Abbate then liuing and seeing the whole order of their doinges to crie out Reioyce our mother Rome because the windowes of earthly treasures are opened that euen streames and heapes of mony in great abundaunce may flow vnto thee Be glad for the wickednes of the sons of men thou art well recompensed for their foule enormities Take delight in discord thy best assistant which is issued from the bottomlesse pit to increase thy gaine Thou hast that which thou didst alwaies thirst for sing this song that by the malice of men not any religion of thine thou hast conquered the worlde Neither deuotion nor good conscience draw men to thee but manifold sins and strifes wherein mony beareth the sway And because the Pope would be sure the Emperour should not trouble nor interrupt his excessiue gaine nor pride he would not suffer Charles the fourth to be crowned but on this condition that he neither stay at Rome nor in Italie which Petrarke a man of that time pretily gibeth at All power is impacient to beare an equall whereof if we had not ancient presidents enough I feare our age hath giuen vs a late example and that the Bishop of Rome hath forbidden the Emperour of Rome to abide at Rome which as they say he hath done and not only looketh but commandeth the prince should be content with the bare crowne and title of the Empire and whome hee permitteth to be called Ruler by no meanes will he suffer him to rule And writing to the Emperour him-selfe With a promise I knowe not how and with an oth as it were with a strong wall or high hill you are prohibited to haue accesse to the citie of Rome What pride is this that the Romane prince the author of publike libertie should be depriued of al liberty and that he should not be his owne whose by right all thinges should be Mary the Pope the prince were wel met
iust one Phi. We haue the iudgement of holy Church for our doinges Theo. Neuer talke of your censures as if they were the iudgementes of holy church so long as they ende in murders they bee the wicked iniurious and mischeeuous attemptes of Antichrist incensing subiectes to rebell against the powers which God hath ordained to their owne damnation and you be the blazers and abettours of that his impietie and for lacke of better proofes you bring the Pagās and Heathens which knew not God to fortifie your doinges Phi. They had meanes to deliuer themselues from tyrantes shal wee haue none They had murdering of tyrants which God hath prohibited to all christiās toward priuate men much more toward Princes Deliueraunce if you woulde haue obtaine it by praier and expect it in peace those be weapons for Christiās Somerfields dagge and Parries dagger be diuelish meanes to dispatch princes vsed by Heathens to reuenge their pursuers but to their sharpe and heauie punishment before God who hath taught his an other way to deliuer thēselues from tyrantes that is to repay no man therefore not Magistrates euill for euill to be pacient in tribulation to reioice in hope not to auenge thē selues but to blesse their persecutors to blesse them I say and not to curse them much lesse to kill them These be the manifest precepts of Christ If you be of God you will heare them If not in truth you bee heathen and then may you well follow your forefathers the heathens in murdering or as you cal it in depriuing and restraining of Princes Phi. The bond and obligation we haue entered into for the seruice of Christ and the Church farre exceedeth all other dutie which wee owe to anie humane creature and therefore where the obedience to the inferiour hindereth the seruice of the other which is superiour wee must by Lawe and order discharge our-selues of the inferiour Theo. You say you haue heapes of learning sure you shew litle There is no doubt but the dutie which we owe to Christ and his church farre exceedeth the seruice that we can owe or must yeelde to any humane creature and also against the superiour wee must yeelde no obedience to the inferiour and thence you may rightly conclude that we must not obey man aboue or against God but when you inferre that if Princes commaund some thinges against Go◠you must therefore obey them in nothing this is wicked and most absurde sophistrie Wee must not obey them in those pointes which they commaund against God in all other thinges we must because God hath so prescribed vs to doe Take an example of the Tyrantes that were in the Apostles time Did they not directly commaunde against God not in one or two but in all matters of religion It is euident they did Did the Apostles thence conclude that the christians should take them for no Princes but by law and order be discharged of all other seruice due vnto them as you doe It is euident they did not Yea rather they earnestly adiured all christians to be subiect to them in all other things and euen in those thinges which were commaunded against God to submitte them-selues with meekenesse and reuerence to indure the Magistrates pleasure though not to obeie his will Why then in matters of so great moment bring you so light and vaine delusions Why repeate you so often the same antecedent and neuer attende the fault of your consequent Phi. The wife if shee cannot liue with her owne husband beeing an Infidel or an heretike without iniurie and dishonour to God shee may depart from him or contrariwise hee from her for the like cause neither oweth the innocent partie nor the other can lawefullie claime any coniugall duetie or debt in this case The very bondslaue which is in an other kinde no lesse bound to his Lorde and master than the subiect to his Soueraigne may also by auncient Imperiall Lawes depart and refuse to obey or serue him if he become an heretike yea ipso facto hee is made free Finally the parents that become heretikes lose the superioritie and dominion they haue by Lawe or nature ouer their owne children Therefore let no man maruel that in case of heresie the Soueraigne loseth his superioritie and right ouer his people and kingdome Theophil If wee shoulde graunt you these three precedentes euen as your selfe set them downe they woulde nothing further your conclusion That hereticall Husbandes Masters and Parentes loose their right and interest which they otherwise haue in their wiues seruantes and children is no position of Gods Lawe but a terrour deuised and established by the Princes power to fraie men from Heresie Nowe Princes appoint punishmentes for their Subiectes not for them-selues therefore no good consequent can bee framed from these paternes to the depriuation of Princes It is ouer much bouldnesse in you Masters without authoritie to require to punishe your Superiours in such sorte as they with authoritie punish their subiectes They bee Princes you bee not they beare the sworde to reuenge wickednesse you doe not they may dispose of their people bee they Masters or Parentes you may not dispose of them being Magistrates Much lesse may you turne the Lawes which they made to punish subiectes against themselues That were to make them not Princes ouer others but Subiectes vnder you which I trust they bee not You see the disparison of your examples and so the disiuncture of your argument and yet your supposementes bee not simplie true Neither infidelitie nor heresie by Gods Lawe doeth dissolue matrimonie The Apostle willeth the beleeuing wife to staie with the vnbeleeuing husbande if hee bee so content and our Sauiour will haue no man putte away his wife for heresie but onelie for incontinencie Where daunger of life is feared or bodily wrong offered the Magistrate may permit the wife to dwell asunder from her husbande till hee bee reclaimed but in no case to bee diuorced The Seruaunt is not so surely bounde to his Master as the Subiect is to the Prince power of life and death the Master hath none the Prince hath refuge against the Master the Seruaunt hath to the common gouernour of them both which is the Magistrate the Subiect hath no refuge against his Soueraigne but onely to God by prayer and patience and therefore the Prince may demise the Seruaunt if the Master bee like to corrupt him but no man can discharge the Subiecte though the Prince goe about to oppresse him and that your owne example will conclude For who set free the Seruaunt from his Maister the Apostles or Princes You knowe the Apostles neither did nor might attempt anie such thing Peter in Gods behalfe requireth all Seruaunts with feare to obey their Masters excepting neither infideles nor heretikes not only if they were good curteous but though they were froward For that is thanksworthie if a man for
a matter of more dependence than may bee ouer-ruled with a fewe piked and well couched tearmes You must therefore exactly and directly prooue the Popes authoritie to depose Princes which you shall neuer bee able to doe or else hee for attempting it is the man of sinne exalting him-selfe in the Church of GOD and you for defending and executing the same lacke not many degrees of high and haynous treason The carying of this in your owne heartes and reconciling of others within the realme that they might bee readie to receiue this impression at your mouthes when tyme should serue were the very causes why some of your fellowes tasted of her maiesties iust and prouoked indignation and if it be tyrannie for the Prince to put them to death that lay plottes to haue her crowne and her life and write bookes to auouch it lawful for themselues and all others so to doe when the Pope sayth the word then her highnes hath done you some wrong but if by diuine and humane recordes it bee damnable in the subiect to attempt or abet any such thing and most laudable in the Prince to reuenge the consenter and encourager as well as the doer then for religion hath none of your side beene martyred in England as your shamelesse eloquence would enforce onely some were executed for affirming publishing and furdering the Popes Antichristian power to rule realmes and depriue Princes which you call religion because you would plant it in the peoples hearts with lesse labour and more liking though in deede it be pestilent pride in him and a plaine contempt of God and the Prince in you that should obey Phi. M. Iohn Slade and M. Iohn Body two famous confessours were they not condemned to death in publike iudgement for confessing their fayth of the Popes spiritual soueraigntie and for denying the Queene to bee head of the Church of England or to haue any spirituall regiment and that twise at two diuers sessions a rare case in our countrie the later sentence being to refourme the former as we may gesse in such strange proceedings which they perceiued to bee erroneous and vnsufficient in their owne Lawes Theo. Promotions are rife at Rome you would not else so soone aduance two frowarde and rude companions for masters martyrs Their iudgement was twise giuen not as you peruersly yet after your manner interprete the later to reforme the former as erroneous and vnsufficient but for that they complayned they were drawen afore they were ware and against their wils to vtter speaches against the Princes sworde for which they were condemned the grace mercie of the Prince was such that her highnesse was content they should bee tried the seconde tyme to see whether those words were vnaduisedly and vnwillingly spoken as they pretended or of set mischiefe malice and warned by the Iudge to take good heede and looke wel about thē before they rashly offered themselues to the danger of the Lawes Where if they fell againe openly and lustily to auouch that the Pope was supreme head of the Church of England and consequently the Queene had no right to make lawes as shee had doone but was subiect to the Popes Decrees and censures which is the maine ground of all your rebellion and his presumption who besides you that are yoked in the same cause with them will say they died for religion and not rather for their wilful charging the Prince with vsurpation yeelding the Pope that dominion which hee claimeth ouer kingdomes and you would faine establish with your vntrue surmises Phi. The question of Peters keyes is it not a matter of meere religion Theo. If you draw Princes crownes and swordes within the limits of Peters keyes you leaue religion and hatch rebellion Phi. Yet is it a question whereof diuines do doubt Theo. You may doubt what you list to flatter the Pope but your doubting may not stoppe Princes from defending that which is their owne against the Popes vniust claime and vnlawfull force The Prince striueth not with the Pope neither for the dignitie which hee taketh aboue all Bishoppes nor for the power which hee seeketh to bind and loose sinnes in heauen though therein hee doeth the Church of Christ great wrong and oppresseth his brethren but onely for her right to commaund and punish within her own Realme in ecclesiasticall causes and crimes as well as in temporall which I haue largely prooued euery Prince may within his owne Dominion and for the wrong that her maiestie receiued when shee was depriued of her crowne by him that had no warrant from Christ to disquiet her state or dispose her crown These bee the pointes comprised in her highnes Lawes Against these if your rash and ill aduised brethren woulde runne headlong to their owne perdition when they were admonished by the magistrate to haue better regarde to their wordes they haue the iust rewarde of their vnfaythfull and disloyall heartes and my assertion is true that these two ignorant yet obstinate persons with some others which came not to any particular mention of the Popes bull against the Prince but generally stoode in defence of that power to be good and lawfull from whence the bull proceeded died in the same quarell with the rest that purposely promoted defended and assisted the bull and so can bee no witnesses of Christes trueth and glory which woulde needes cast away their liues for the Popes pride and tyrannie Phi. It is hard dealing to make such trifles treasons Theo. Call you those trifles when Princes shall lose their kingdomes and their people freely rebell and you defende the warres of their owne subiects against them to be iust and honourable by vertue of that power which you attribute to the Pope when you make him head of the Church Had you liued in Saint Augustines dayes you would haue sayde it had beene harder dealing that one word against the Christian Emperours although they were dead shoulde be counted treason Thou doest promise sayth Augustine to Petilian that thou wilt reckon many of our Emperours and iudges WHICH BY PERSECVTING YOV PERISHED and concealing the Emperours thou meanest two Iudges or Deputies Why didst thou not name the Emperours of our cōmunion were thou afraid to bee accused as guiltie OF TREASON where is your courage which feare not to kill your selues To say that Emperours PERISHED FOR PERSECVTING was Treason in his tyme In our age you thinke it much that reproching of Princes as tyrants and heretikes ayding the Pope with your perswasions absolutions rebellions to take their crownes from them should be punished or adiudged Treason Phi. There is no law so rigorous but your diuinitie wil serue you to defend it Theo. What is against your duetie to God and your Prince in that I am a diuine I may iustly debate what punishment the Prince will appoint for such offences as be committed against her neither you nor I haue to doe with it
We may do better to learne obedience than sawcely to check the magistrate for allotting such penalties as we do not like yet this I wil say there is no conspiracie so pernicious and dangerous to the State as that which is secretly crept into the hart vpon a sense of deuotion and outwardly couered with a shew of religion If therfore the Prince seuerely reuenge both your pretences in opinion practises in execution absurdly grounded on Peters keyes and wickedly deriued thence for the remouing of her crowne defacing of her person and diminishing of her right that rigor may wel be defended as comming from iust and lawfull authoritie not without sufficient and euideâ—t necessitie neither can you bring ought against it but onely that you professe it as a point of your Catholique religion not of any sinister or direct intention to hurt her maiestie or any other Christian Prince which is most friuolous false For the Popes authoritie iurisdiction and power lately claymed by him and vsurped within this Realme and since maintained extolled and defended by you and such your adherents as haue suffered death to prescribe Lawes as hee list to commaund Princes and interdict their Realmes yea to depriue them of their crownes absolue their subiects licence rebellions and dispence with the murdering of heretikes as you call them euen of Princes themselues This authoritie iurisdiction and power we deny to bee any doctrine or doubt of Christian religion or to bee so much as once spoken or thought of I say not by the Scriptures which put no difference betweene the Pope and an other Bishoppe but by any father or Councell for a thousande yeeres in the Church of God It was the meere deuise and drift of Antichrist to make himselfe mightie when it was first attempted by Hildebrand and it is nowe coloured by you with the name of religion because you would poyson the people the sooner with that perswasion haue somewhat to say for your selues when you be charged with rebellion and disobedience to the temporall magistrate Phi. Your owne masters and leaders whom I trust you will not condemne for Traytours haue detested the title of Supreme head of the Church in princes as well as wee the Lutherans flatly controling it in generall and Caluin himselfe with all the Puritants much misliking and reprehending the first grant therof to king Henry Why then put you poore men to death for that which your owne side abhorreth Theo. Your brethren were not put to death for denying her maiestie to bee supreme head of Christes Church in Englande in causes ecclesiasticall though one of them for want of trueth or wit did so report at his end and you for lacke of better proofe haue brought his owne woordes spoken in fauour and excuse of himselfe as some worthie witnes No man is compelled by the lawes of this Realme to confesse any such title in the Prince much lesse punishable by death for denying it and therefore your martyr was a Lyer at the houre of his death and either of malice inuerted or of ignorance misdeemed the cause for which he dyed Phi. It is all one to bee head of the Church and to bee chiefe Gouernour in causes ecclesiasticall Theo. They suffered neither for the one nor for the other but for maintaining and defending the iurisdiction and power of the Bishop of Rome heretofore claymed and vsurped in this Realme which generall includeth all your erroneous and trayterous assertions of the Popes power tending no way to religion but only sauouring of the Popes pride to be ruler and displacer of Princes And therfore either proue that claime to pertaine to faith or leaue your vayne presuming and fond discoursing that a number of your brethren haue beene condemned and executed for meere matter of religion Though you list to take that for spirituall which is temporall and cal it religion which in deede is sedition yet your idle multiplying of words and changing of names doeth not conuince your quarrel to bee righteous or the Lawes of this Land to bee tyrannous Shewe that power iurisdiction and authoritâ—e which your holy father hath heretofore claymed and vsed in this realme to bee consonant to the lawes of God or church of Christ for a thousand yeres and wee will yeeld your friends and familiars haue dyed for religion otherwise you do but face out the matter with fierie words to keepe deceiued and simple sâ—ules from suspecting the secrets of your profession As for supreme head of the church it is certaine that title was first transferred from the Pope to king Henry the eight by the Bishops of yoâ—r side not of ours though the pastors in King Edwards time might not wel dislike much lesse disswade the stile of the crowne by reason the king was vnder yeres and so remained vntil he died yet as soone as it pleased God to place her maiestie in her fathers throne the Nobles preachers perceiuing the words head of the church which is Christs proper and peculiar honour to be offensiue to many that had vehemently refelled the same in the Pope besought her highnesse the meaning of that word which her father had vsed might be expressed in some apter plainer termes and so was the Prince called Supreme gouernour of her Realme that is ruler and bearer of the sworde with lawfull authoritie to command and punish answerably to the word of God in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall thinges and causes as well as in temporall And no forraine Prince or prelate to haue any iurisdiction superiority preeminence or authority to establish prohibite correct and chastice with publike lawes or temporall paynes any crimes or causes ecclesiasticall or spirituall within her Realme This Caluin and they of Magdeburge neuer misliked howsoeuer you would seeme to take aduantage of their words Phi. Caluin sayth it is sacrilege and blasphemie Looke you therefore with what consciences you take that othe which your owne master so mightily detesteth Theo. Nay looke you with what faces you alleage Caluin who maketh that stile to be sacrilegious and blasphemous as well in the Pope as in the Prince Reason therefore you receiue or refuse his iudgement in both If it derogate from Christ in the Prince so doeth it in the Pope if it doe not in the Pope as you defend no more doeth it in the Prince Yet we graunt the sense of the word supreme as Caluin conceiued it by Steuen Gardiners answere and behauiour is very blasphemous and iniurious to Christ and his word whether it bee Prince or Pope that so shall vse it For by supreme Caluin vnderstoode a power to do what the Prince woulde in all matters of religion without respect to the will or precepts of God which is a thing most impious Phi. His woordes are They were blasphemers in calling him supreme head of the Church vnder Christ. Theo. They are so but that which goeth before
when ten yeares after his comming to the crown he was forced to send for direction to Huldath the Prophetesse not finding a man in Iudah that did or could vndertake the charge Phi. These were kinges of the olde Testament and they had the Lawe of God to guide them Theo. Then since christian Princes haue the same Scriptures which they had and also the Gospell of Christ and Apostolike writings to guide them which they had not why should they not in their kingdomes retaine the same power which you see the kings of Iudah had vsed to their immortall praise and ioy Phi. The christian Emperours euer called Councels before they would attempt any thing in Ecclesiasticall matters Theo. What councell had Constantine when with his Princely power he publikely receiued and setled christian religion throughout the world twentie yeares before the fathers met at Nice What councels had Iustinian for all those ecclesiasticall constitutions and orders which he decreed and I haue often repeated What councels had Charles for the church lawes and chapters which he proposed and inioyned as wel to the Pastors as to the people of his Empire Phil. They had instruction by some godly Bishops that were about them Theo. Conference with some Bishops suâ—h as they liked they might haue but councels for these causes they had none In 480. yeares after christian religion was established by christian Lawes I meane from Constantine the first to Constantine the seuenth there were very neere fourtie christian Emperours whose Lawes and actes for ecclesiasticall affaires were infinite and yet in all that time they neuer called but sixe generall Councels and those for the Godhead of the Sonne and the holy Ghost for the two distinct natures and willes in Christ All other pointes of christian doctrine and discipline they receiued established and maintained without ecumenicall councels vpon the priuate instruction of such Bishops and Clerkes as they fauored or trusted Theodosius as I shewed before made his owne choice what faith he would follow and had no man nor meanes to direct him vnto truth but his own prayers vnto God and priuate reading of those sundry confessions that were offered him And when neither Bishops nor Councels could get him to remoue the Arians from their churches Amphilochius alone with his witty behauior aunswere wan him to it For entering the Palace and finding Arcadius the eldest sonne of Theodosius lately designed Emperor and sitting with his father Amphilochius did his dutie to the father and made no account of his son that sate by him Theodosius thinking the Bishop had forgotten himselfe willed him to salute his sonne to whom the Bishoppe replied that which he had done to the father was sufficient for both Whereat when the Emperour began to rage to conâ—â—er the contempt of his sonne for his dishonour the wise Bishoppe inferred wiâ—h a loude voice Art thou so grieued O Emperour to see thy sonne neglected and so much out of pacience with those that reproach him Assure thy selfe then that almighty God hateth the blasphemers of his Sonne and is offended with them as with vngratefull wretches against their Sauiour and deliuerer Had you beene in the primatiue church of Christ you woulde haue gallantly disdained these and other examples of christian kings and Countries conuerted instructed somtimes by Marchaunts sometimes by women most times by the single perswasioÌ„ of one man without al legal means or iudicial proceedings the poore soules of very zeale imbracing the word of life wheÌ„ it was first offered them and neglecting your number of voices consent of Priestes competent courts as friuolous exceptioÌ„s against God dangerous lets to their saluation Frumentius a christian child taken prisoner in India the farther and brought at length by Gods good prouidence to beare some sway in the Realme in the nonage of the king carefully sought for such as were christians among the Romane Merchants and gaue them most free power to haue assemblies in euery place yeelding them whatsoeuer was requisite and exhorting them in sundry places to vse the christian praiers And within short time he built a Church brought it to passe that some of the Indians were instructed in the faith and ioyned with them The king of Iberia neere Pontus when he saw his wife restoared to health by the prayers of a christian captiue and himselfe deliuered out of the suddaine danger that he was in only by thinking and calling on Christ whom the captiue woman named so often to his wife sent for the woman and desired to learne the manner of her religion and promised after that neuer to worship any other God but Christ. The captiue woman taught him as much as a woman might admonished him to build a church and described the forme how it must be done Whereupon the king calling the people of the whole nation together told them what had befallen the Queene and him and taught them the faith and became as it were the Apostle of his nation though hee were not yet baptized The examples of England France other couÌ„tries are innumerable where kings coÌ„monwealths at the preaching of one man haue submitted themselues to the faith of Christ without councels or any Synodal or iudicial proceedings And therefore ech Prince people without these meanes haue lawful power to serue God Christ his Son notwithstanding twentie Bishops as in our case or if you will twentie thowsand Bishops should take exceptious to the Gospell of truth which is nothing else but to waxe mad against God by pretence of humane reason and order Phi. Their examples and yours are not like They receiued the same faith that the church of Christ professed you doe not Theo. They know not what the church of christ ment when they submitted themselues to the faith of Chriâ—â— they respected not the countenaunces of men but the promises of God when they first beleeued And were you not so wedded to the Popes tribunals decrees that you thinke the God of heauen shoulde not preuaile nor commaunde without your allowance you would remember that the church her selâ— was first collected and after increased by Christes Apostles maugre the councelles of Priestes and Courtes of Princes that derided the basenesse and accused the boldnesse of such as would preach Christ without their permission Phi. The Apostles had a iust and lawfull defence for their doinges Theo. What was it Phi. We ought rather to obey God than men Theo. Was that authoritie sufficient for them to withstand the Synodes of Priestes and swordes of Princes Phi. Most sufficient Theo. And the truth of God chaungeth not neither doth his right to commaund against the powers and lawes of al mortal men decay at any time Phi. By no means Theo. Then this must only be the question betwixt vs whether the Prince or the Prelates stoode for that which God commaundeth If the
the Princes or nayle vp cloth of Tissue where the Prince is not and say it is a chayre of state would you bee so foolish as to regard either of them or shoulde you not dishonour the king if you did reuerence them since they bee not such thinges as the Prince accepteth or vseth for his but other mens counterfaites Phi. I speake of that Chaire where the Prince did sit and of that Seale which the Prince did send Theo. I knowe you did and therefore I refused your similitude as vnlike the matter in question betwixt vs because images are neither places of Christes presence nor witnesses of his will as Seates and seales are vnto Princes no nor ordayned allowed or admitted by Christ to haue any credite or vse about his heauenly person or pleasure but only proposed by men of a naturall and kind affection as they thought towards Christ though cleane without warrant and so without thankes from him For hee of purpose tooke his bodily presence from the eyes of men that hee might dwell in their heartes by fayth and to teach vs to honour him not by that proportion of face which the painter would drawe but by that abundance of loue grace and mercie which hee hath extended on vs and layde in stoare for vs and which no corporall eyes can behold nor colours expresse but onely the hearing of his woorde and woorking of his spirite can lighten and perswade the heart of man to conceiue and beleeue Phi. Is it not thankes woorthie with God to haue alwayes the shape of his sonne before our eyes that wee may honour him with our hearts Theo. To honour him with your heartes and to haue him at all times in your mindes is religious and requisite but to make light of those meanes which hee hath prescribed to nourish your fayth and continue the memorie of him-selfe to seeke out others of your owne fit to please your senses not to resemble his greatnes or goodnes this is neither acceptable vnto God nor profitable for your selues Phi. To remember Christ cannot bee euill Theo. Not to remember him till you looke on a picture can not bee good Your heartes ought alwayes to bee lifted vp vnto him that whether you eate or drinke wake or sleepe or whatsoeuer you doe in woorde or deede you may doe all in the name of the Lord Iesu giuing thankes alwayes for all thinges vnto God the father in the name of our Lorde Iesus Christ. You must not tary for the execution of this precept till you see an Image But all your actions woordes and thoughtes must bee directed to the prayse of his glory and honour of his name This if you put in bre you shall neede no painted nor carued Image to bring you in mynde of his mercies The benefites and blessings within you without you and on euery side of you which GOD for Christes sake bestoweth on you are so many that you can hardly forget him vnlesse you also forget the earth that beareth you the heauen that couereth you the day that guydeth your feete the night that giueth you rest the meates that you feede on and the breath that you liue by yea your owne bodies which hee woonderfully made and soules which hee preciously bought All these thinges and all other thinges in heauen and earth you must drowne in vtter obliuion before you can inferre that Images bee needefull to put vs in mynde of our dueties to GOD. And since without Images you can and must remember the Father that created and the Holy Ghost that â—anctified you why shoulde you forget the sonne that redeemed you more than the other except you haue Images at your elbowes to kindle you appetites But this is nothing to the worshipping of Images which you should proue to bee Catholike Though there were an historicall vse in painting the shape of our Sauiour yet is it no pietie to worshippe the picture Graunt it might be vsed for remembrance for religion it may not and therefore you are all this while besides the marke Philand You denie both the hauing and woorshipping of Images to bee Catholique Wee prooue the hauing of them to bee necessarie by the fruite and profite that commeth from them namely the instruction of the ignorant in the storie of their saluation the putting vs in often remembraunce of our Sauiour and the stirring vp our deuotion with more feruencie The worshipping of them wee proue with more facilitie for if hee that honoureth the Image honour the person himselfe thereby represented as S. Athanasius S. Basil S. Chrysostome and S. Ambrose doe affirme then the worship which is done to the Image of Christ passeth vnto Christ himselfe and by consequent if it bee lawfull to adore and honour Christ it is not vnlawfull to doe the like to his Image Besides wee can prooue that adoration of Images is a tradition deliuered from the Apostles and obserued in all Churches and that the Scripture it selfe supporteth vs in this point as the learned epistle of Adrian the Bishoppe of Rome to Constantine and Irene doeth largely shewe and for the credite of the cause wee haue a general Councell eight hundreth yeres old to say as much in euery point as I affirme and more Theo. Wee maruell not to see you so deepely deceiued and strongly deluded as you bee such is the iust iudgement of God on all that admit not the loue of the trueth but haue pleasure in vnrighteousnes You rest on the vanities forgeries of such as were enclined to the same error before you not examining their proofes nor considering their reportes but presuming their euident follies to bee pregnant authorities for you whith is euer the next way to seduce others and to bee seduced your selues As touching the shew which you make of Scriptures Apostolike Tradition Churches Fathers Councels it is a childish and friuolous vaunt The fathers which you quote are abused the Apostles and their Churches belied the Scriptures depraued and wrested the Councell which you call generall reiected as wicked and diligently refuted in the same age by the West Bishoppes Of these emptie and vnluckie Maskes the more you bring the lesse you wynne Phi. Wee loose nothing so long as you lode vs onely with words Theo. If your proofes bee vaine my woordes be true Looke you therefore to the soundnesse of that which you alleage otherwise your owne burden will ouerpresse you Philand The collection which I made out of Saint Basill and others is very sure Saint Basill sayth Honos Imaginis in ipsum prototypum redit The honour doone to the Image redoundeth to the principall that is thereby represented S. Athanasius Qui Imaginem adorat in ipsa Imperatorem adorat He that reuerenceth the Image honoureth therein the Emperour And S. Chrysostome Knowest thou not that hee which hurteth the Emperours Image defaceth the Imperiall dignitie it selfe And so S. Ambrose Hee that
Athanasius writing Theo. By this let the world iudge both of your cause and cunning A thing bone by the confession of your owne stories aboue 760. yeares after Christ vnder Constantine the 5. not long before the seconde Nicene councell is coloured with Athanasius name as written by him that was deade 400. yeares before the matter happened and not onely published with his writinges but inserted into the second Nicene councell as his worke whereas the Bishops then assembled were all aliue when this outrage was attempted by the Iewes not 24. yeares before the calling of that Synode Such fables and forgeries doe well become the quarell you haue in hand but they wil neuer proue your hauing of images to be catholike or Apostolike Phi. In deede our stories doe mention such an accident at the time which you name but if it be true though it be not so old as Athanasius we care not Theo. He that wil forge must not stick to ly lying is the very ground of forging and of a lyar we looke for no truth And yet this tale of Nicodemus Gamaliel Iames Simeon and Zacheus deliuering an image from hand to hand is not the assâ—rtioÌ„ of the author but the rude report of a poore ignorant man fathering his image on them that neuer were christians as Gamaliel was not and that 700. yeares after their deathes without any proofe saue onely by hearesay By such legends you may soone proue what you will but he that hath any spark of christian courage or wisedom will vtterly abhor these lies as feeling the grosnesse of them with his fingers Phi. Since you so much dislike our proofes that the Apostles and the Primatiue church had images can you proue they had none Theo. Doth your discretion serue you to put vs to proue the negatiue Ph. You affirm they had none our demaund is how you know that Theo. You can not proue they had and that is cause sufficient for vs to auouch they had not Phi. Is that all you can say Theo. If it were you can not voide it but we haue euident proofes that the church of Christ succeeding the Apostles had none and thence we conclude the Apostles deliuered none otherwise the church would not so soone haue reiected the tradition of the Apostles Phi. You may be sure they would not Theo. And since they did reiect Images ergo it was no Apostolike tradition Phil. Howe proue you they did reiect them Theo. The christians were charged by the Pagans for hauing no images and they not onely confessed so much but also defended it as most agreeable with the law of God In Arnobius the heathen say of the christians Cur nullas aras habent nulla tenepla nulla nota simulachra why haue they no altars no temples no open or knowen images In Origen Celsus sayth Hij non patiuntur vel templa vel aras vel simâ—lachra statuas intueri The christians can not abide to beholde temples or altars or images In making their answere the Christians agnised they had none and alleadged the law of God to proue they should haue none ClemeÌ„s sayth Nobis non est imago sensilis de materia sensili sed quae percipitur intelligentia We haue no image that is materiall and seene with eyes but onely such as is conceiued with vnderstanding And addeth this reason We are plainely forbidden to vse that deceitfull art of making images Thou shalt not make saith the Prophet the likenesse of any thing The Christians and Iewes saith Origen when they heare the lawe of God thou shalt not make to thy selâ—e any grauen image nor the likenesse of any thing neither shalt thou bowe downe to them nor serue them not only refuse these teÌ„ples Altars images of God but if neede be choose rather to dy And extending this as well to the image of the true God as of those that were no gods he sayth Nec simulachra quidem nos veneramur quippe qui Dei vt inuisibilis ita incorporei formam nullam effigiamus We reuerence not images as making no figure to God who is inuisible and without all bodily shape So Arnobius What image shall I make to God whose image if you rightfully iudge man himselfe is And Lactantius as you hearde before affirmed There coulde bee no religion wheresoeuer there was an image Phi. These spake not of the christian images but of the Pagans such as in deede we may neither worship nor haue Theo. They speake namely of themselues which were christians confessing they neither had nor might haue any image of God Phi. Not of the Godhead but of Christ his Saincts they might notwithstanding these words it is euident by Eusebius they had For the woman that was cured by Christ of the bloody issue erected an image of brasse vnto him in Cesaria where she dwelt vnder the feete of which image grewe a strange herbe healing all diseases as soone as it touched the brasen skirt of his garmeÌ„t This image remained togither with the herbe to the time of Eusebius after till Iulian the Apostata in spite of Christ brake it in peeces set vppe his own image in place thereof which God strake with fire from heauen in reuenge of his sonne so dishonored by Iulian threw the head of Iulians image from the body pitching it with the face downward into the earth blasting the rest with lightning for a terror to all that euer after should offer the image of his Sonne any reproach or misuse as you may read in Sozomene And this example is a faire warning for you that haue beheaded burned so many images of Christ his Sainctes within this Realme Theo. This image the woman that was healed erected in the citie where she dwelt as a monument of the mighty power which our Sauiour had shewed on her she being then an heathen not instructed in religion thinking thereby to prouoke others to harken after him seek for his help as she had done And when many trusted not her words it pleased God not only to ratify her report as true but to shewe the Gentiles by the wonderfull euent of the herbe there growing what vertue was in his sonne to cure all their griefs thereby to lead them the rather to beleeue in him that they might be saued by him In this wee dispraise not the womans purpose minding to celebrate the benefit which shee receiued at our Sauiours handes the best way that she then knew we honor the goodnes of God in preparing the hearts of vnbeleeuers by meanes of this miracle to bee ready to imbrace his Sonne detesting the wickednes of Iulian that to discouer his contempt of Christ and malice against Christ whose faith he had openly reâ—ounced amongst other villanies which hee offered caused the Pagans in a triumph to draw this image about the streetes breaking it in
peeces to set vp the image of himselfe which God ouerthrew with fire froÌ„ heauen not in defence of the brasen shape but of his holy name prophaned and illuded by this Apostata Phi. This image the Apostles sawe and suffered Theo. A memoriall of their masters act not abused by the people and erected before they came to preach the Gospell to that place they might suffer but they neuer taught men to make the like nor allowed any to worshippe that Phi. Wee thinke they learned the setting vppe of this image from the Apostles Theo. Eusebius sayth they did it of an heathenish custome and not of an Apostolike instruction His wordes are And no maruell that the Heathens which were healed of our Sauiour did him this honour for so much as wee haue seene the images of his Apostles Paul and Peter and of Christ himselfe drawen in colours and kept in tables which kinde of honour antiquitie of a custome which they vsed when they were heathens was wont to yeelde to such as they counted Benefactors Sauiors Phi. By that you see the images of Christ his Apostles were expressed in colours and reserued by the auncient christians long before Eusebius Theo. Eusebius doeth not report it as a thing either openly receiued in Churches or generally vsed of all christians but as a secrete and seldome matter rising from the perswasion and affection of some which whiles they were heathen had yeelded that honour to other of their friendes fautors to whom they were most beholding For had the Apostles deliuered any such tradition or the Primatiue church of Christ vsed any publike erection of images as you suppose would the councell of Eliberis in Spaine assembled about the time of Constantine the great in plaine words haue banished them out of their churches Placuit picturas in ecclesiis esse non debere ne quod colitur aut adoratur in parietibus dâ— pingatur We haue decreed that pictures ought not to be in the churches lest that which is worshipped or adored be painted on walles Woulde S. Augustine thinke you haue pronounced them worthy to erre which sought Christ his Apostles in pictures paintings if the people had bin taught that way to seeke him Sic omnino errare meâ—uerunt qui Christum Apostolos eius non in sanctis codicibus sed in pictis parietibus quaesierunt So they deserued to erre which sought Christ and his Apostles not in the sacred Scriptures but in paynted walles Or would Epiphanius haue rent the image which he found hanging in the church by Ierusalem and pronounced such painted imagery notwithstanding it represented Christ or one of his Sainctes to be contrary to the Scriptures to the religion of Christ. His words are When I entered the church to pray I found hanging there in the enterance of the saide church a stained and a painted cloath hauing the image as it were of Christ or one of the Sainctes When I sawe this that against the authoritie of the Scriptures the image of a man was hanged vp in the church I did teare it in sunder And I pray you hereafter to command that such cloathes repugnant to our religion be not hanged in the church of Christ. It becommeth your fatherhood rather to haue this care to banish this superstition vnfit for Christes church and for the people committed to your charge By this you may see that images were not receiued much lesse adored in the church of Christ whiles these ancieÌ„t fathers liued and that to remoue them and keepe them out of the church was then adiudged a seemely care for Christian Bishoppes agreeable with the Catholike profession and publike vse of the church of Christ in those dayes Phi. Gregorie the first you know was of an other minde that images should be suffered and not defaced in the church Theo. Gregorie liued 300. yeares after the councell of Eliberis and 200. after Epiphanius in which time the painting of stories was crept into the church as an ornament for the naked walles and a meane to set before the peoples eyes the liues and labours of the Sainctes and Martyrs but that pictures or images in the church shoulde bee worshipped or adored Gregorie did in most manifest words abhorre alleadging the law of God which we do that nothing made with hands should be adored or serued Phi. Not with diuine honor Theo. You meane with no part of that honor which God requireth of vs. Phi. What else They must not haue diuine honour in whole or in part Theo. Then must they haue none at all For God requireth bodily honor no lesse than ghostly as due to him and by his law excludeth all thinges made with handes from hauing either in saying Thou shalt not bow down to them nor serue them Phi. Bowing the knee is not diuine honour but such as wee yeeld to Parents Magistrates Theo. Bowing the knee is a part of Gods honor as also holding vp the handes and lifting vp the eyes To me saith God shall euery knee bow For this cause saith Paul doe I know my knees vnto the father of our Lord Iesus Christ shewing that the bowing of our knees is an honour due to God euen as the lifting vppe of our handes and eyes belongeth likewise vnto him As long as I liue sayeth Dauid I will magnifie thee on this maner and lift vp my handes in thy name I will sayeth the Apostle that the men pray euerie where lifting vp pure handes And so for the rest Vnto thee saith Dauid do I lift vp mine eyes thou that dwellest in the heauens And againe Mine eyes are euer vnto the Lord. And so of our Sauiour when he praied S. Iohn reporteth He lift vp his eyes to heauen and saide The outward honor therefore of eyes handes kneâ—s God requireth of vs as his due though chiefly and principally the heart which he will not suffer any man to haue besides himselfe howsoeuer he allow those that present his goodnesse and glorie in blessing and iudging as Parents and Magistrates to haue some part of his corporall but in no wise of his spirituall honour Phi. And so many images haue part of his external though not of his internal honour which is the higher of the twaine and meeter for the diuine maiesty Theo. It is not in your handes to make allowance of Gods honour to whome you list and againe God himselfe hath made a plaine prohibition in this case that images shall haue no part of his externall honour The wordes are as cleare as day light thou shalt not bow downe to them Phi. Not to the images of false Gods Theo. It is but lost labor to reason with such wranglars Haue not I mainly proued that this precept expressely forbiddeth the Image of the true God to be made or bowed vnto Why then take you vp those shifts againe which be false and refuted
And so againe of that and such like Many thinges are not founde in the Apostles writinges nor in the Councels of those that came after them and yet because they be obserued of the vniuersall Church Non nisi ab ipsis tradita commendata creduntur they are thought to haue bin deliuered and commended by none but by them Phi. This sense is not amisse if the words would beare it but the text is Esset as we translate it Theo. The sense which you vrge is first against your selues next against S. Austen himselfe in other places and lastly which is it that you shoote at it ouerthroweth not our assertion Phi. It requireth some paines to proue all this Theo. Not so much perhappes as you thinke For will you confesse that no custome of the church must be receiued or beleeued except it be Apostolike Admit this and see whether we will not presently cast off the most part of the preceptes and customes of your Church as not descending from the Apostles and therefore not at all to bee beleeued by your owne verdict And as for Sainct Augustine if you thinke hee woulde saie that The custome of the vniuersall Church is not at all to be beleeued except it bee Apostolik reade this resolution better you wil leaue that misconstruction of his wordes Those things which we keep saith he not written but deliuered by traditioÌ„ the which the whole world obserueth must be conceiued to haue bin commended ordained vel ab ipsis Apostolis vel plenarijs concilijs quorum est in ecclesia saluberrima authoritas either by the Apostles themselues or else by general councels whose autority in the church is most wholsom The custom of the church he saith must be retained though it be not Apostolike but decreed by others of later age meanâ—r credit than the Apostles if their assemblies synods were general And againe In hijs rebus de quibus nihil certi statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta Maiorum pro lege tenenda sunt In those things where the diuine scripture appointeth no certainty the custome of the people of God ordinances of forefathers must bee helde for a law If the custome of Gods people the ordinaÌ„ces of elders must be kept for a law then the custom of the church in baptizing her infants might not be reiected though it were not Apostolike so S. Austen with your esset cleane crosseth himselfe Lastly where you thinke to giue vs the foile with pressing this place we easily grant you that The custom of the church in baptizing her infantes were not to be beleeued if it were not in Apostolike tradition You haue your own reading what are you the better Phi. Ergo some points of faith are beleeued without the scriptures besides the scriptures The. Sir I deny your argument Phi. This is beleeued by tradition ergo not by scripture Theo. A tradition it may be yet written in the scriptures S. Paul calleth the Lords supper a traditioÌ„ yet it is written Ego accepi à Domino quod tradidi vobis I receiued of the Lord that which I deliuered vnto you The death and resurrection of Christ he likewise caled a tradition confirmed by the Scriptures Tradidi vobis inprimis quod accepi I deliuered vnto you first of all which I also receiued that Christ died for our sinnes according to the Scriptures and was buried and rose the thirde daie according to the Scriptures And in plainer words to the Thessalonians Holde fast sayeth hee the traditions which you haue learned either by speeche or Epistle of ours calling those thinges that be written in his epistles his traditions Phi. But the fathers vse the word otherwise for that which is not written Theo. Sometimes they do somtimes they do not S. Cyprian sayth Whence is this tradition Whether doeth it descend from the Lordes authority and the Gospell or commeth it from the precepts and epistles of the Apostles If it be commaunded in the Gospell or contained in the Epistles or Actes of the Apostles let this holy tradition be obserued And so S. Basill Our baptisme is according to the tradition of the Lord in the name of the father the Sonne and the holy Ghost Ireneus Tertullian Hierom Augustine and others call the short rehearsal of the christian faith which is our common Creede an old Apostolik traditioÌ„ yet no part of the creede is without or besides the warrant of the Scriptures Phi. I know it may be a tradition and yet reuokeable to the Scriptures and proueable by the Scriptures but the baptisme of infantes Sainct Augustine saith hath no witnes in the scriptures Theo. Where saith he so Phi. In many places Theo. Name but one Phi. There be many things which the vniuersal Church obserueth and for that cause they be well thought to haue beene commaunded by the Apostles though they be not found written Theo. How proue you this to be one of those many Phi. Because wee finde it not written but only deliuered by tradition Theo. You say so but where doth S. Augustine say so Phi. In the wordes which we first alleaged It were not to be beleeued if it were not an Apostolike tradition If it were written it must be beleeued though it were no Tradition Theo. You deale with the fathers as you doe with the scriptures S. Austen doth not say the baptisme of infants were not to be beleeued but The custome of the Church in a matter of so great weight as the baptizing of infants were not to be trusted if the tradition were not Apostolike The church might not haue presumed to baptize infants if the Apostles had not begunne it what gaine you by that Thereby you may proue that the Apostles did it and that the Church of her selfe and her own authoritie might not doe it more you cannot proue Phi. But doth S. Austen any where say that the baptisme of Children is contained in the scriptures Theo. What if he went not so farre in wordes because the matter was not in question whiles he liued is that any ground for you to conclude that it is not allowed by the Scriptures Phi. If he keepe silence it is a shrewde signe that it is not Theo. So long as no man did impugne it there was no need he should defend it the question in his time was not whether it were lawful for infants to be baptized but whether it were needfull for theÌ„ or no. The Pelagians held it to be superfluous for yâ— infantes were void of original sinne which was their error That he mightily reproueth by manifest Scriptures and sheweth that infants as well as others bee excluded from the kingdome of God if they be not baptized Farther hee waded not as being not farther vrged and troubled enough besides with refuting other heresies and yet as occasion serued hee brought
Authoritie to witnesse the same For example the worshipping and adoring of Christes Image with diuine honour concluded in your Schooles and practised in your churches is it not a wicked and blasphemous inuention of your owne against all Synodes and Fathers Greeke and Latine olde and newe that euer assembled or taught in the church of God besides your selues The seconde Nicene Councell which first beganne that pernicious pastime of saluting and kissing Images did they not in plaine wordes condemne this errour of yours when they saide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vni Deo tribuimus diuine honour wee giue to God alone and not to images And againe I receiue and imbrace reuerent images but the adoration which is doone with diuine honor called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I reserue to the supersubstantiall and quickning Trinity onely and to no image Ionas Bishop of Orleans that wrote against Claudius Bishop of Turin in the defence of images 50. yeares after the second Nicene councell did hee not mightily detest your adoration of images as a most heinous errour and was not the whole church of Fraunce by his report of the same minde with him Suffer saith he the images of the Sainctes the histories of holy actions to be painted in the church not that they shold be worshipped but that they may be an ornament to the place and bring the simple to the remembraunce of thinges past Creaturam verò adorari etque aliquid diuinae seruitutis impendi pro nefas ducimus huiúsque scelâ—ris patratorem detestandum anathematizandum libera voce proclamamus But that any creature or Image should be adored or haue any part of diuine honour wee count it a wickednesse and with open voice proclaime the committer of that impiety worthy to bee detested and accursed And prouing by manifold authorities of scriptures and fathers that neither image neither any thing made with handes should be adored he addeth That which you say the worshippers of images answered you for the maintenaÌ„ce of their error we think no diuinity to be in the image which we adore but only in honor of the person whose image it is we worship it with such veneration that answere of theirs we reproue detest as wel as you because they do know there is no diuine thing in the image they be the more blame worthie for bestowing diuine honor on a weake beggarly Image the self same answere many of the East church entangled with this hainous error giue to such as rebuke theÌ„ the Lord of his mercy graÌ„t that yet at leÌ„gth both these and those may bee drawen from this superstition of theirs Fraunce hath Images and suffereth them to stand for the causes which I before rehearsed but they count it a great detestation abomination to haue them adored In this opinion stoode the west Churches a long time till your schoolemen started vp and ouer-ruled Religion with their sophisticall distinctions and solutions and they keeping the wordes of the later Nicene Councell and not marking their drift controled that which they concluded and brought in a lewder and wickeder kind of adoring of Images with the same honor that is due to the Principall The chiefe actor in this was your glorious Sainct and Clerke as you cal him Thomas Aquin who reiecting all that was decreed at Nice inferred against them that no reuerence could be exhibited to the Image of Christ in that it was a thing grauen or painted because reuerence is due to none but to a reasonable creature and alleaging Aristotles authoritie that the motion to the Image and originall is all one he resolueth in these wordes Cum Christus adoretur adoratione latriae consequens est quod eius imago sit adoratione latriae adoranda Since then Christ is adored with diuine honour it followeth that his Image must likewise be adored with the self-same diuine honour Bonauenture an other of your Romish Sainctes canonized by Sixtus the fourth goeth after Thomas with full saile Quin Imago Christi introducta est ad repraesentandum eum qui pro nobis Crucifixus est nec affert se nobis pro se sed pro illo ideo omnis reuerentia quae ei offertur exhibitur Christo propterea Imagini Christi debet cultus latriae exhiberi Whereas the Image of Christ representeth him that was crucified for vs and offereth it selfe vnto vs not for it self but for him in that respect all the reuerence which is giuen to it is done to Christ and therefore the Image of Christ must be honored with diuine adoration Holcote and Gerson somwhat disliked this assertion and disputed against it but the pronesse of the people to follow such fancies the greedines of Priestes and other religious persons to keepe and increase their offerings and the credite of Thomas his learning Sainctship and sectaries bare such a sway in the Church of Rome that the rest coulde not bee regarded nor heard and so the common opinion and resolution of your Churches and schooles as the fortresse of your faith confesseth was that the image of Christ should be worshipped with diuine honor whâ—ch you would faine shrinke from in our dayes the doctrine being both strange and wicked if you could tell howe but that the wordes are so plaine that no pretence can colour them Your schoole doctrine therefore of adoring images with diuine honour not onely prohibited by the law of God and abhorred of all ancient and Catholike fathers but euen renounced in the second Nicene councell as repugnant to truth and shunned in the West church for a thowsande yeares after Christ and vpwarde as a most wicked errour howe coulde it on the suddaine with a sillie distinction of sundrie respectes become catholike what greater wickednes can there be than to giue the honor of God to stockes and stones and to say you do it not in regard of the matter but of the resemblance which the image hath to the originall as though it could be an image vnlesse it had some resemblance either in deed or in our opinion to the thing it selfe or man were not a truer better image of God and yet in no respect to be adored with diuine honor or as if God prohibiting all images made with hands to be adored had not included as well their resemblance as their matter Why may not any Pagan by this euasion worship what creature he will say he beholdeth honoreth in it not the matter but the wisedome power of the Creator And what other conceit is this than that which the Iewish heathenish Idolaters when they were reproued answered that they adored not the thinges which they saw but conueied their adoration by the image to him that was inuisible If such prophane speculations may be suffered in Gods cause wee may soone delude all that GOD hath commanded with one respect or other The
cut off al ambiguities we haue the plaine testimonie of Gregorie the great that the Church of Rome 600. yeres after Christ knew nothing of those constitutions and Church seruices which are now obtruded vnder the Apostles names Mos Apostolorum fuit vt ad ipsam solummodo orationem Dommicam oblationis hostiam consecraret This was saith he the maner of the Apostles to consecrate the sacrifice with saying no moe praiers but the Lords praier In vaine therefore doe you dreame of a settled forme of praier for the Lords supper where as the Apostles haue none but left that to the direction and disposition of the holy Ghost inspiring the ministers and elders in euery Church when the faithful were assembled to make their praiers vnto god with the people and to render him thankes for all his mercies as the spirite gaue them vtterance This Chrysostome calleth Precandi domum the miraculous gift of praiers whereof S. Paul speaketh in this place and Tertul. seemeth to meÌ„tion the same in his Apologie for the Christians as during in the Church vnto his time We saith he looking vp to heauen with our hands stretched out as being innocent bareheaded as not ashamed sine monitore quia de pectore oramus make our praiers without any prompter as comming from the free motion of our own harts Phi. Our arguments conuince that S. Paul spake not of the Churches seruice and till those be answered we cannot change our minds Theo. That which I haue alreadie saide openeth your error in mistaking or els peruerting the wordes of S. Paul choose you whether if that content you not repeate your reasons as they stand in rew that we may see their force Phi. It is euident the Corinthians had their Seruice in Greeke at this same time and â—t was not done in these miraculous toungs Nothing is ment then of the church seruice Theo. To vs it is out of question that the Corinthians had their publike prayers and exhortations in the Greeke tongue because the common people of that City vnderstood none other and the tongue which they vnderstoode not might not be vsed in the Church by S. Pauls rule but you that denie S. Paul to speak of the Church seruice in this place howe prooue you the Corinthians had their Seruice in the Greeke tongue Phi. Doe you thinke they had not Theo. For our parts as I tolde you we are resolued because S. Paul would neither haue preaching nor praying in the Church but such as might edifie addeth that an vnknown tongue profiteth nothing to edificatioÌ„ mary you are otherwise minded and therefore I see not howe you can proue that they had their seruice in the Greeke tongue which you affirme to be euident Phi. Had they their Seruice trow you in an vnknowne tongue Theo. In your opinion that is no such absurdity Phi. They could not vnderstand it except it were in Greeke Theo. This is contrary to your owne Principles For the Hebrewe Greeke and Latine as you told vs euen nowe were vnderstoode of the cyuill people in euery great Citie and were that vntrue as I know it is though you auouched it for an aduantage yet is it not necessarie to vnderstand our prayers as your selues defend in this your declaration vpon S. Paul and following the path that you leade vs in your Rhemish obseruations wee say you can not prooue the Corinthians had their seruice in the Greeke tongue Philand In what tongue else coulde they haue it Theoph. Rather in Hebrewe than in Greeke for that tongue was sacred and naturall to the Iewes who first spred the Gospel and planted the Churches Phi. The Apostle requireth the people shoulde vnderstande the prayers of the Church otherwise they reape no profite by them and to speake Hebrewe in the Church to them that vnderstood nothing but Greeke were no reason Theo. Are you there at host now Can you plea thus on both sides when you be vrged You are making inuincible arguments that the Apostle speaketh nothing in this place of the Churches seruice before you can iustifie the first proposition which you bring you bee faine to take hold of this very place to prooue the Corinthians had their Church seruice in Greeke Phi. Nay without this place it is euident they had their seruice in greeke The. Set this chapter aside and if you prooue the Corinthians had their seruice in Greeke at this very time when the Apostle wrate wee giue you the cause Phi. You be resolued they had and yet you put vs to prooue it as if it were in doubt Theo. I tel the reason It is euident they had their seruice in a knowen tongue by that which the Apostle here writeth otherwise it is not euident by any other proofe that you can make And since you will haue the Apostle to speake nothing of the Church Seruice in this chapter why shoulde wee not put you to prooue that which you lay for the ground of your misconstring Saint Pauls text Phi. A trueth it is what proofe soeuer may or may not be brought for it Theo. Let it stand for trueth what will you conclude Phi. Nothing is meant then of their Church Seruice Theo. Why so Phi. That was in Greeke and well vnderstood of all the people Theo. A worthy sequele As if it were not possible for some vaine men to disturbe the Church of Corinth notwithstanding the Apostle had left generall direction that al things should be doone in the church vnto edification The Lordes supper was rightly deliuered them was it therefore not abused by some amongst them The like say we for their praiers in the church No doubt Paul ordained at Corinth as he did in al other churches of the Saincts that the people should say Amen to euery blessing and thankesgiuing that was vsed in the Church Might not therfore some of their Elders and ministers to venditate themselues and the gift which they had of God sometimes blesse and make their praiers at the Lords table in a tongue not vnderstoode of the whole multitude Phi. Were they strangers or inhabitants Theo. It skilleth not whether they might bee either Phi. Inhabitants there would vse none other toung than their owne and strangers might not minister Sacramentes in other mens Churches Theo. Some of their own might be so vain glorious as in making their praiers at the Lordes table which was then doone by hart and not after any prescribed order or form to shew the gift of tongues which they receiued of the holy Ghost to an other end and not to commend them-selues without edifiing the hearer Strangers also if they were in place were suffered both to teach and blesse in the Church as well as others that were tied to their Cures by reason that many were sent by the Apostles and by the holy Ghost to visite the Churches and comfort the Christians as they traueled and such were according to their
maners for that is his maine restriction and not euery custome which in time to come might or should happily bee newly deuised by some partes or members of the church but such as the whole church far neere without contradiction retained then when he spake as descending from the Apostles or Apostolike men And so the word hodie doth import though your Monkes haue left out the first syllable written die for hodie as the course of the sentence doth plainly declare If then to dispute whether the ancient custome of the vniuersall church may be altered be madnes yea most insolent madnes what degree of phrensie wil fal to your lot that erect desend a particular late growen custome against the plaine precept of God himselfe against the Apostles prescription against the generall ancient vsage of Christs church yea against the nature of man true intent of your own seruice which you would seeme to make most account of Phi. All this is vntrue Theo. Bethinke your selfe better and you shall finde it truer than you would wish Phi. Had euer any Nation their church-seruice in a barbarous tongue before our time Theo. Make you that such a wonder which your own friends confesse was so common in the primatiue church Lyra saith In primatiua ecclesia benedictiones caetera coīa or else leauing out the c which seemeth to be added by the negligence of the Printer oīa siebant in vulgari In the primatiue church blessings and al other or other common praiers were made in the vulgar toung which the people vnderstood Eckius saith Non negamus tamen Indis Australibus permissum vt in lingua sua rem diuinam facerent quod clerus eorum hodie obseruat We deny not but the south Indians were suffered in the primatiue church to haue their diuine seruice in their mother toung which is neither Greeke Hebrew nor Latine which also their clergy at this day obserueth An other of your friends saith of the Moscouits Totū sacrū seu Missa Gētili ac vernacula lingua apudillos peragi solet The whole seruice or masse is said with thē in their natiue mother toūg The epi. also the Gospel of the daie are read to the people with a loud voice out of the chācel for their better vnderstāding Pet. Belloni saith As many as are presēt with the priest singing masse Armenia answere him in the Armenian tongue For all that stand by vnderstand the Armenian tongue which the Priest vseth in his seruice Phi. These bee schismaticall and disordered Churches Theo. In deede they know no part of your holy Fathers religion nor dominion Yet are they Christians and neerer the truth by many degrees than the church of Rome It is no schisme to bee free from him to whom they were neuer subiect and some obseruances though they haue which are both superstitious and erronious yet that is no reason to dispraise them in that wherein they followe the example of the true and sincere church of Christ and retaine that custome which they receiued from the beginning Phi. Wee may dislike them for this aswell as you may for other thinges Theo. Whether you like them or no so they doe and so haue they doone euer since they were planted in Christ euen to this our age And this their constancie you can not dislike but you must also dislike the Apostle that first taught it the primatiue church that continued it and adiudged it to bee necessary yea your holy Father himselfe that not onely would permit it when he was requested but strictly commaunde it when it was not asked Cyrillus that conuerted the people of Russia and Morauia made request to the Bishop of Rome as Pope Pius the second reporteth that hee might vse the Sclauon tongue in saying diuine Seruice to them whom hee had baptized And when the matter came to bee handled in the sacred Senate or councell chamber a number contradicting it he saith there was heard a voice as it were from heauen speaking these wordes Let euerie spirite praise the Lord and euerie tongue confesse him and that vpon the hearing thereof Cyrillus had his petition The blindnes of your holy father and his Cardinals was reproued by a voice from heauen for hauing their Seruice in an vnknowen tongue and yet you beare men in hand to dislike the late custome of your Romish Synagogue or so much as to dispute thereof as if it were not to be done is insolent madnesse Innocentius though hee were the first that brought Transubstantiation Auricular confession and deposition of Princes to bee confirmed in open councell 1215. yeares after Christ yet durst he not binde the West church to the Latine seruice throughout as you doe but gaue streit charge rather to the contrary that such as were of diuerse languages shoulde haue the praiers and sacramentes of the church in their seuerall and sundry rites and tongues as appeareth in the councell of Lateran assembled vnder Innocentius the thirde of that name Because in many places within the same citie Diocese there be mingled people of diuerse toungs hauing vnder one faith sundry rites customes we straitly commaund that the Bishops of such cities Dioceses prouide fit men which may celebrate diuine seruice and minister the church Sacramēts vnto them according to the diuersities of their rites lāguages Phi. In diuerse toūgs he saith they shal haue their seruice but not in any barbarous tongue Theo. And he that saith they shal haue their seruice in diuerse tongues confesseth there were more tongues vsed in the West church than one and taking order that seruice should be said vnto them according to the diuersities of their tongues he saw some cause why the people should vnderstand what was said in the church and if that be needfull or expedient for one nation why not for other in like manner And yet I see no restraint in the wordes but that the Moscouites Morauians others were prouided for by this Canon to haue the church seruice in their proper and natiue tongue as well as the Grecians Phi. If it were so we account it lawful for that the church of Rome did permit it Theo. Then do we account our seruice in the English tongue much more lawful chiefly for that it is warrāted by the word of God as I haue shewed and secondly for that it wanteth not the generall vse and order of Christes church in her sincerest and purest state to confirme the same Phi. Haue you the generall and ancient custom of Christes church to insure your seruice in the english tongue Theo. Wee haue for that tongue which the people vnderstand be it English Scottish or what other speech you will Phi. That any Nation praied in a barbarous tongue you haue no president in the Primatiue church Theo. This is not the first time that your teeth could not rule your tongue The
but let a man examine himself and so eate of this bread and drinke of this cup that is before hee eate of this breade and drinke of this cup and he shall find that contentious and riotous persons such as they were in their feastes bee no sit ghestes for that heauenly Supper And yet to vs it is all one whether it were before or after at their bankers and feastes it was ministred and eueÌ„ serued at their tables as S. Augustine noteth in these words Non debent fratres mensis suis ista miscere sicut faciebant quos Apostolus arguit emendat The brethren ought not to haue these mysteries serued at their tables as they did whome the Apostle reprooueth and refourmeth And had not the Lordes Supper beene abused among them what needed the rehearsall of the first institution to the which because the Apostle recalleth them it is euident they were fallen from it Nowe abuses in this place S. Paul mentioneth none but drunkennesse dissention and defrauding the poore and since drunkennesse and deceiuing the poore as you auouche can not agree to the Sacrament it followeth that dissention was the thing which defaced the Lordes Supper among them in that they would neither at coÌ„mon meats nor at the Lordes Supper sit al together but sort them selues in factions and companies as they fauoured and friended eche other This was the fault which S. Paul first rebuked when hee beganne to redresse the thinges that troubled the Church of Corinth They contended about Baptisme saying I am Pauls and I am Apollos and I am Cephaes and their dissention so increased and came to that sharpnes that they woulde haue their tables in the Church and euen the Lordes Supper also eche company by them selues The false Apostles sayth Ambrose had sowen such discorde among them that they stood striuing for their oblations Hierom saith In ecclesia conuenieÌ„tes oblationes suas separatim offerebant Meeting in the church they deliuered their oblations to seueral companies according as euery man fansied the parties And againe Nemo alium expectabat vt communiter offeretur No man expected one an other that the oblation might be common And S. Paul as Chrysostom thinketh brought the Table Supper where the Lord himselfe was and at which sate all his Disciples euen Iudas the Traytour for an example to shew them that that is rightly iudged to be The Lordes Supper quae omnibus simul conuocatis concorditer communiter sumitur which is receiued in common and with one consent of all assembled together Yea S. Augustine affirmeth that The Apostle speaking of this Sacrament saith for which cause brethren when you assemble together to eate expect one an other Your obseruations therefore are first false when you say these circumstances can not agree to the holy Sacrament For euen these which you name as most vnlikeliest are applied by the fathers to the Lordes Supper Expecting one an other you heard S. Augustine referre directly to this Sacrament Deuouring of all by the rich and drunkennesse S. Hierom expoundeth likewise of the verie same mysterie The Apostle sayth one is drunke and an other hungrie for this reason Quia superuenientibus mediocribus volentibus sumere Sacramenta deerant quoniam ab illis qui obtulerant oblationes in communi conuiuio fuerant cuncta consumpta Because the meaner sort comming after the rich mynding to receiue the Sacraments there was nothing left to minister the Sacrament withall they that brought the oblations deuouring all in their common banket Haymo sayth One is hungrie that is hee which for pouertie is not able to bring wheaten bread and wyne to bee consecrated for the Communion an other to witte the riche and wealthie man is drunken and surfeyteth as well with other meates as with the sacraments of the body and blood of the Lord. Next did some of them not agree to the sacraments of the Lordes table as surfeyting deuouring and drunkennesse yet other circumstaunces as schismes not expecting one an other may and doe very fitly serue for the Lordes Supper as you see by the iudgement of those Fathers whom I haue named Thirdly did no circumstaunces of their disorders agree to the right institution of the Sacrament yet so long as Saint Paul refelleth their doinges in the Church as vnseemely for the sacred mysteries there prepared and receiued what reason haue you to deny that Saint Paul meaneth the sacrament where hee sayth when you come together if you fall to filling your bellies and despising the poore as you doe in your feastes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 You can not or this is not the right way to eate the Lordes Supper For this is plaine to him that hath but halfe an eye that Saint Paul checketh them as vnwoorthie partakers by these their abuses of the mysteries of Christ and interpreteth the plagues which some of them felt to bee Gods scourges for their loosenes in that behalfe and therefore with great reasons might hee beginne to reprehend them as vnâ—it approchers to the Sacrament and vtter so much in these woordes when you come together this is not the way to eate the Lordes Supper or to haue accesse to his table to make schismes at your feastes in the Church with excesse in your selues and reproche to others Phi. If you will needes haue the Sacrament called the Lordes Supper keepe you that name and wee will keepe ours as more auncient and Catholike by the testimonie of Saint Augustine S. Ambrose and the rest whome I cited before for the antiquitie of the blessed Masse Theo. Hee that wil boldly deny a trueth will easily affirme a falsehood S. Augustine in all the works that be vndoubtedly his neuer so much as once named the Masse The Sermons de tempore which you produce are collected out of other mens writings as well as his and many of them found vnder the names of other authors and fauour litle either of Austens learning or phrase as Erasmus confessed when he first surueyed them S. Ambrose hath the woorde once and so haue two Prouinciall Councels of Africa Leo hath it twise which is all that you can finde in sixe hundreth yeres till Gregorie the first came and vsed the woorde somewhat oftener yet none of these cal the Sacrament or Sacrifice by that name as you would haue it but rather expresse by that word the auncient order of the primatiue church in sending away such as might not be partakers of the Lords table as in place where I noted before And that Missa with the fathers doeth signifie not the Masse but leaue to depart before or after the communion your owne fellowes wil instruct you whom you may not wel distrust as being with you though you trust not vs that are against you Polydore repeateth and alloweth the same with these woordes Mihiverò prior ratio probatur vt
precepts eate ye drinke ye but in al respects the cup was deliuered at the same time to the same persons when the bread was So that you must either exclude the people from both which I trust you dare not or admit them to both which is the very point that we presse you with Heare what a man of your side thinketh as well of this consequent as of your halfe communion There be some false catholikes that feare not to stop the reformation of the church what they can These spare no blasphemies least that other part of the Sacrament shoulde bee restoared to the lay people For say they Christ spake drinke ye all of this onely to the Apostles but the words of the Masse be these take and eate ye al of this Here I would know of them whether this were spoken only to the Apostles then must laymen abstaine likewise from the element of bread which to say is an heresie yea a pestilent and detestable blasphemie It is therefore consequēt that both these words eate ye drinke ye were spoken to the whole Church I will not take this aduantage that your owne fellow doth proclaime you for false Catholikes heretikes and horrible blasphemers God giue you grace to see whither you be fallen and whence This for your liues you cannot shifte but these two precepts eate ye drinke ye by the tenor of Christs institution must be referred to the same persons and so both or neither pertaine to the people Surely the wordes which our Sauiour vsed in deliuering the cup are more generall and effectiue than when he gaue the bread Drinke ye all of this and they all dranke of it take it diuide it among you This cup is the newe Testament in my blood which shall be shed for you Now the Lord shed not his blood for the Priest onely but also for the people neither was the new Testament established in the blood of Christ for the Priestes sake but as well for the redemption of the people Then as the fruites and effects of the blood of Christ are common to the people with the Priest so should the cup also which is the communion of his blood shed for the remission of the peoples sins be diuided indifferently betweene the Preist and people There is saieth Chrysostome where the Priest differeth nothing from the people as when wee must receiue the dreadfull mysteries For it is not here as it was in the olde Lawe where the Priest eate one part and the pleople an other neither was it lawfull for the people to be partaker of those thinges which the Priest was but now it is not so but rather one bodie is proposed to all and one cup. Phil. The church then might like that the people shoulde haue the cup as the church after did mislike it for many and weightie causes but how proue you that Christes precept extendeth vnto the people Theo. Wee can haue no better interpreter of Christes speech than his Apostle that was best acquainted with the true meaning of our Sauiour Wee haue sayth he the minde of Christ and that which I deliuered you I receiued of the Lorde So that hee did not correct but onely report the Lordes ordinaunce and in deliuering both kindes to the whole church of Corinth priest and people without exceptiō the teacher of the gentiles did neither swarue frō the first institutiō nor right intentiō of Christ his master The cup of thāksgiuing which we blesse is it not the communion of Christes blood The bread which we breake is it not the communion of Christs body Ye can not drink the cup of the Lord the cup of diuels Ye can not be partakers of the Lordes table and of the table of diuels Can you frame vs a reason out of these wordes of Sainct Paul to dissuade the Corinthians from eating and drinking such things as the Gentile there sacrificed to Idols not confesse that they dranke of the Lords cup It is not possible For this is Sainct Paules argument You can not drinke both the Lordes cuppe and the cuppe of diuels the cuppe of thankes giuing which wee blesse and you all drinke of is the communion of the Lordes blood therefore you maie not drinke of the cup of diuels YOV CANNOT DRINKE BOTH inferreth they did and should drinke one which was the Lordes cup not the cup of diuels els Paul should haue said you maie drinke neither not the cup of diuels for they might haue no fellowship with diuels neither the Lordes cup for that is reserued for the Priest by your doctrine but both saith Paul you cannot drinke ergo they must drinke one which was not the cup of diuels Againe the cup which they dranke not could to them be no Communion For nature teacheth vs that to be partaker of a cup is to drinke but the Lordes cup was to them the communion of his blood ergo they dranke of the Lordes cup. My collection is so cleare that the vulgar translation which you are tied to by the Councell of Trent putteth these verie woordes in the text Omnes de vno pane de vno calice participamus we all are partakers of one bread AND OF ONE CVP. Ambrose Hierom Bede Haymo and others found it so consequent to S. Pauls former woords and coherent with his maine reason that they sticke not to keepe this addition de vno calice in their verie terts on which they comment So that out of question Paul taught the Church of Corinth to distribute the Lordes supper to the Christians in both kindes and that as he saith he receiued of the Lorde And who◠that hath anie shame or sense left reading the next Chapter that followeth where Christes institution is fullie proposed and largelie debated by S. Paul will or can doubt but the Lorde at his last Supper ordained both kindes for all the faithfull As often saith Paul to the whole Congregation as ye shall eate this bread and drinke this cup ye shewe the Lordes death till he come Whosoeuer shall eate this bread drinke the cup of the Lord vnworthilie shall be guiltie of the bodie and blood of the Lorde Let a man therefore not speaking of this or that man but of euerie man examine himselfe and so let him eate of this bread and drinke of this cup. And least you should want a generall affirmatiue to iustifie this our exposition take these woordes of S. Paul and quiet your selfe By one spirit are we all Baptized into one bodie whether we be Iewes or Grecians bond or free and WE ALL HAVE DRVNKE into one spirit Can you looke for directer or plainer woordes All Iewes and Gentiles bond and free not onelie dranke but by drinking were made partakers of one and the same spirite uen as by baptisme they were grafted into one bodie Then if Christ himselfe deliuered both kindes at his last Supper
full consent of all ages and Churches in expounding the same but also to chase the people by terror of secular power and ecclesiasticall curse from the cup of their saluation from the communion of Christs blood and felowship of his holy spirit Such fathers such fansies What is mockerie what is iniurie to God and man if this be Religion or pietie The Church of Rome you will say concluded with them That increaseth her sinnes and excuseth not their follies If an Angel from heauen had conspired with them our duetie bindeth vs to detest both him and them as accursed if they step from that which the primatiue church receiued from Paul and Paul from Christ Howe much more then ought wee to reiect that which the church of Rome presumeth not onely besides but against the sacred scriptures And yet to speake vprightly the auncient church of Rome maketh wholy with vs in this cause For no church euer resisted your mangled communions with greater vehemencie than the church of Rome did till couetousnesse and pride blinded her eyes and hardned her heart against God and his sonne Pope Iulius that lyued vnder Constantine the great made this decree We heare that certaine led with schismaticall ambition against the diuine ordinances and Apostolike directions doe giue TO THE PEOPLE the Eucharist dipped in wyne for a full communion They receiued not this from the Gospell where Christ betooke his body and blood to the Disciples For there is recited the deliuering the bread by it selfe and the cup by it selfe Let therefore all such error and presumption cease least inordinate and peruerse diuises weaken the soundnes of fayth If the communion bee neither perfite nor agreeable to Christes institution and Apostolike prescription except the people receiue both kinds seuerall and asunder the bread from the cup and the cup from the bread as Christ ordayned and the Gospel declareth Ergo your excluding the people cleane from the cup is altogether repugnant to the manifest intent of our Sauiour and right imitation of his Apostles And what if the first authors of your drie communion were the Manichees are you not wise men and well promoted to forsake the precept which Christ gaue you the president which Paul left you the course which the christian world for so many yeeres obserued and followe so pestilent and pernicious a sect of heretikes reprooued and long since condemned by the church of Rome for that very fraude and abuse in the Sacraments which you bee nowe fallen vnto The Manichees sayth Leo to couer their infidelitie venter to bee present at our mysteries and so carie them-selues in the receiuing of the Sacraments for their more safetie that they take the body of Christ with an vnwoorthy mouth but in any wise they shunne to drinke the blood of our redemption Which I would haue your dâ—uoutnes speaking to the people learne for this cause that such men might bee knowen to you by these markes and when their sacrilegious simulation is founde they may bee noted and bewrayed by the Godly that they may bee chased away by the priestly power Against this disorder of Manichees wrate Pope Gelasâ—â— as your friende Master Harding confesseth Wee haue intelligence that certaine men receiuing onely a portion of the sanctified body abstaine from the cup of the sacred blood who for that it appeareth they be entangled with I knowe not what superstition let them either receiue the whole Sacraments or be driuen from the whole because the diuiding and parting of one and the same mysterie can not bee without grieuous sacrilege The sense is plaine To take the Lordes breade and not drinke of the Lordes cup is a seuering and distracting of this mysterie which by the iudgement of these two Popes is open sacrilege ergo neither Catholike or christian What shift nâ—we Philander to saue your selues from sacrilege Spake Gelasius of the Manichees as Master Harding resolueth Graunt it were so Then what was sacrilege in them can it bee catholike in you If that auncient church of Rome condenmed this in the Manichees howe commeth your late Church of Rome not onely to suffer but also to commaund the same Can you turne darkâ—nes to light and sacrilege to Religion That were a marueilous alteration But Siâ—s your minds may change wee knowe Christes institution can not changâ— The contempt thereof in Manichees in Papistes as then so still was and will be sacrilege Spake Gelasius not of the Manichees but of certaine Priestes that receiuing the bread at the Lordes table neglected the cup Yet Leo speaketh of the Manichees by name and â—hose Laymen and mingled with the people and calleth their forbearing the Lords blood a sacrilegious sleight reason were you should prooue that onely Priesâ—es are ment in this place of Gelasius and not suppose what you list at your pleasures as the gloze doeth and others of your side that stand on this answere The woordes are indefinite and touch as well people as Priest but let vs imagine that Gelasius spake of Priestes first then you commit sacrilege in restraining all Priestes from the communion of both kinds except they say Masse themsâ—lues Next if it bee sacrilege in the Priest why not in the people The precept of our Sauiour drinke ye all of this compriseth all both Laymen and Priestes His Apostle extendeth the same to the whole Church of Corinth Chrysostome sayth the Priest differeth nothing from the people in receiuing the mysteries but one cup is proposed to al In Chalice nobiscum vos estis You sayth Austen to the people are in the Lordes cup no lesse than we The cup was deliuered to all men Priest and people with like condition as Theophilact affiâ—meth Drinke yee all of this that is sayth Paschasius as well other beleuers as Ministers Hence wee frame you this argument The cup was by Christ deliuered to Priest and People with like condition and like precept the refusing of the Lordes cup is sacrilege in priests by the position of Gelasius and the confession of your friends it is therefore no lesse than sacrilege for the people to refraine the same What then is it for you to pull the Lordes cuppe out of their handes by rigor and force for so trifling respectes as you pretende but apparent violent and wilfull sacrilege Phi. It was sacrilege then for the people to refuse or refraine the cup because the church was content to admitte them to it But now the church is otherwise resolued it were sacrilege to expect or demand it Theo. What shall the man of sinne and sonne of perdition when he commeth if hee bee not already come and you his supporters to hold vp his seate in the temple of God say more than you now say that you at your lists may breake the commandements of the great and euerlasting God and alter his ordinances and to blame you for
here on earth though after an inuisible manner which wee take to bee vnder the formes of breade and wyne Theo. That Christ is present with vs here on earth wee firmely beleeue to our great comfort Where two or three sayth our Sauiour are gathered together in my name I am in the middest of them and againe Loâ— I am alway with you vntill the ende of the worlde but that hee is corporally present vnder the formes of bread and wine that is neither auouched by Chrysostome nor admitted by vs it is your vaine and fruitlesse fansie Phi. How can his body bee present but bodily Theo. These woordes of Chrysostom inferre not that Christes body is present but that Christ is present And since Christ consisteth of two natures the diuine may bee present though the humane bee not Christ absent sayth Austen is also present For vnlesse hee were present hee coulde not bee helde of vs our selues But because it is true that hee saith Lo I am with you for euer vnto the end of the world hee is both departed and yet here Hee is returned whence hee came and hath not yet forsaken vs. For his body hee hath caried into heauen but his diuine maiestie hee hath not taken from the world Neither is his diuine power onely present with vs but also wee haue his humane nature many wayes with vs in this worlde Habes Christum in praesenti in futuro In praesenti per fidem in praesenti per signum Christi in praesenti per Baptismatis Sacramentum in praesenti per altaris cibum potum Thou hast Christ sayth Austen in this worlde and in the next In this world by faith in this worlde by the signe of Christ in this world by the Sacrament of baptisme in this world by the meate and drinke of the altar By these things wee haue him in this worlde not really locally or corporally but truely comfortably and effectually so as our bodies soules and spirites bee sanctiâ—â—ed and preserued by him against the day of redemption when wee shall see him and enioye him face to face in that fulnesse and perfection which wee nowe are assured of by fayth and prepared for by cleanesse and meekenesse of the inward man The whole Church therefore neuer cried vppon the Sacrament Lorde I am not woorthy Lord beè mercifull to mee a sinner Lambe of God that takest away the sinnes of the worlde haue mercy on vs You doe sinnefully slaunder them they did exactly and precisely distinguish the corruptible creature from the eternal creator and taught all men to lift vp their hearts from the elements which were before their eyes to him that is in heauen and shall come from thence and from no place else to iudge the world Saint Austen wil haue the rude ones to be taught that the Sacraments are Signacula rerum diuinarâ—m visibilia sed res inuisibiles in eis honorari Visible scales of things diuine but the things visible to be honored in them And as if the case were so plaine that no man could well doubt thereof he saith Si ad ipsas res visibiles quibus Sacramenta tractantur animum conferamus quis nesciat eas esse corruptibiles Si autem ad id quod per illas agitur quis non videat non posse corrumpi If we looke to the visible things or elements by which the Sacraments are perfourmed who can be ignorant that they are corruptible But if we looke to that which is doone by them who doth not see that that can not bee corrupted Saint Ambrose saith Venisti ad Altare vidisti Sacramenta posita super Altare ipsam quidem miratus es creaturam Tamen creatura solemnis nota Thou camest to the Altar and sawest the Sacraments placed on the Altar and maruelledst at the very creature yet is it an vsuall and knowen creature Origen purposely creating what part of the Sacrament did sanctifie the receiuer saith Ille cibus qui sanctificatur per verbum Dei obsecrationem iuxta id quod habet materiale in ventrem abit in secessum eijcitur Nec materia panis sed super â—llum sermo est qui prodest non indigne Domino commedenti illum Haec de typico Symbolicoque corpore The meate which is sanctified at the Lords table by the word of God and praier as touching the materiall partes which it hath goeth into the belly and so forth by the priuie neither is the matter of bread it that profiteth the worthy receiuer but the worde rehearsed ouer it This I speake of the typicall and figuratiue body For this cause the great Councell of Nice directed the whole Church to lift vp their vnderstanding aboue the breade and wine which they sawe and by faith to conceiue the lambe of God slaine for the sinnes of men and proposed and exhibited on the Lordes table in those mysteries Their woordes bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Let vs not baselie bend our mindes on the bread and cup that are set before our eyes at the Lordes Supper but lifting vp our thoughtes let vs by faith beholde on or in the sacred table the Lambe of God taking awaie the sinne of the worlde Which admonition the Church euer after obserued by crying vpon the people to lift vp their hartes not to the Sacramentes which they saw but from them to him that liued and raigned in heauen whome they adored in equall degree with the father and the holie Ghost and whome they behelde and touched with the eyes and handes of their faith but not with their corporall limmes or senses Quomodo in caelum mittam manum vt ibi sedentem teneam Mitte fidem tenuisti Howe shall I sende vp my hande to heauen to reach Christ sitting there Sende thy fayth sayth Austen and THOV HOLDEST HIM fast enough Fide Christus tangitur fide Christus videtur non corpore tangitur non oculis comprehenditur By fayth sayth Ambrose Christ is touched by fayth Christ is seene hee is not touched with our body not viewed with our eyes And therefore Chrysostome saith Hee must flie not to the Sacrament but on hie that will come to this body euen to heauen it selfe or rather aboue the heauens for where the body is there also will the Eagles bee Phi. The councell of Nice sayth The Lambe of God is on the sacred table where then did they seeke him or made they prayers vnto him but on the Altar Theo. They lifted vp their heartes to him that sate in heauen and from heauen looke downe vppon them and their prayers before they could please God were directed to the same place and person that their heartes were You must therefore either fasten their hearts and faiths to the Sacrament or suffer their prayers together with their affections to ascend to heauen where Christ sitteth at the right hande of God
by their own words to teach more than idle signes or ONLY figures in the Lords supper because together with the name goe the vertâ—es and effects of Christes flesh bloud vnited in manner of a Sacrament to the visible signes And this their assertion neither troubleth our Doctrine nor strengthneth your error Againe these writers may very well say the Sacraments of the Gospell BE NO FIGVRES but TRVETH IT SELFE in that respect as figures bee taken for samplers of things to come Such were the figures of the law which did premonstrat the coÌ„ming of christ in flesh ceased at his coÌ„ming And so the mysteries of the Lords table were not figures of things expected but euidences of the truth there sitting in persoÌ„ the next day to be nailed to the crosse therby to fulfil abolish al figures our sacrameÌ„ts are now not signes of farther promises but memorials of his mercies alredy performed Do this saith christ not in figure of an other truth to come but in remeÌ„brance of me which am come for memorie you know stretcheth only to things past and doone and in this sense the letter may bee safely pressed and your carnall conueyance nothing relieued I find a third cause that might induce them to force the letter in this sort yet no way confirming your grosse supposall which is this When the Greeke church fell at variance for Images they which held that Christ ought not to be figured after the likenes of our bodies amongest other reasons alleadged this for one that the Lord at his Supper for a true and effectuall Image of his incarnation chose the whole substance of bread not any way like the proportion of a man lest it should occasion Idolatry The defenders of Images whose side Damascene tooke pressed with this obiection durst not flee to your annihilation of the substance of bread and adoration of the Sacrament with diuine honour which no doubt they would haue doone with great triumph had those two points of your Doctrine beene then counted catholike but yeelding and by their silence confessing that the substance of bread remayned in the supper and was not adored for so the contrarie part opposed at length for very pure neede came to this shift that the mysticall bread was not ordained to resemble and figure Christs humane nature nor so called by christ at his maundie who said not this is a figure of my body but my body nor a figure of my bloud but my bloud and when Basil and Eustathius were produced affirming the bread and wine to be figures and resemblances of Christs flesh and bloud the Patrones of Images replied that was spoken alwaies before neuer after consecration Wherefore Damascene first beganne this myncing and straining the wordes of Christ not to build on them any reall or corporall conuersion of the bread into the flesh of christ but in fauour of his artifical pictures and Images he could by no meanes abide that the mysteries should after consecration be called Images and figures of Christs bodie The next that traced this path after Damascene was Epiphanius not that auncient and learned Bishoppe of Cyprus but a pratling Deacon in the bastard Councell of Nice whose furious and fanaticall answer to the Councel of Constantinople that made this obiection declareth more tongue than witte more face than learning Christ did not say take ye eat ye the Image of my bodie Reade whiles thou wilt saith hee thou shalt neuer find that either the Lord or his Apostles or the Fathers called that vnbloudie Sacrifice which the Priest offereth AN IMAGE Thus doth he braie foorth defiance to the whole worlde without trueth without shame For Chrysostome saith If Iesus were not once dead whose image and signe is this Sacrifice This Sacrifice is an image and samplar of that Sacrifice And Gelasius Surely the IMAGE and resemblance of the bodie and bloud of Christ is celebrated in the action of the mysteries We must therefore so thinke of the Lord Christ himselfe as we professe and obserue in his IMAGE And likewise Theodoret. Ortho. The mysticall signes which are offered to god by his Priests whereof doest thou call them signes Eranist Of the body blood of the Lord. Ortho It is very well saide Conferre then the image with the paterne and thou shalt see the likenes Dionysius calleth it both an image and a figuratiue sacrifice Nazianzene excusing himselfe How should I saith he presume to offer vnto God that externall sacrifice the image of the great mysteries Clemens Offer you in your churches the image of the royall body of Christ. Macarius In the Church are offered breade and wine the images of his flesh and blood The 〈◊〉 â—aâ—hers keepe the same word the same sense Ambrose In the law was a shadow in the Gospel is an image in heauen is the trueth Before was offered a lambe or a calf now Christ is offred here in an image there in truth where he intreateth his father as an aduocate for vs. AusteÌ„ Christ gaue an image of his burnt offering to be celebrated in the church for a remembrance of his passion The rest say the like but what neede we farther refutation of so ridiculous and vnshamefast a bragge such causes such councels such poppets such Proctors The very children in the church of God knowe that the diuine mysteries by the generall definition of a Sacrament be visible signes of inuisible graces and as Augustine interpreteth the word Sacramentum id est sacrum signum a Sacrament that is a sacred signe So that vnlesse they be signes they can possibly be no sacraments neither sacraments nor signes can they be without or before coÌ„secration which this stout champion had not yet learned therfore his verdict in matters of religion except his cunning were greater may be wel refused As Damasene and your prating Epiphanius were more than 700. yeares after Christ so Theophilact and Euthymius are farre younger The first of them was Bishoppe of the Bulgarians who were conuerted to the faâ—eth 868. yeares after Christ the second your owne chronologie placeth after Gracian and Lombard 1100. yeares short of Christ. Were then these later Grecians wholy with you what gaine you by them If you woulde oppose them to Tertullian Origen Cyprian Austen Gelasius Thedorete others of purer times and sounder iudgements you could winne nothing by that bargaine the choice were soone made which to take which to leaue but in deede you do them wrong to returne them for transsubstantiators they neuer knew what it ment They say the mysteries of the Lords table be not only figures but haue the truth annexed No figures of grace differed but seales of mercy perfourmed in Christ and inioyed of vs no called figures or images of Christes flesh after consecration but bearing as well the names as the fruits and effects of the things themselues whose
of a corporal substaÌ„ce for your shewes without substance were not yet known but by secret efficiencie prouing the presence of the diuine vertue This common bread chaunged into flesh and blood procureth life and groweth to our bodies so by the vsuall course of these things the weakenes of our faith is succoured and â—aught by a sensible argument that the effects of eternal life is in the visible SacrameÌ„ts that we be vnitâ—â— to Christ noâ— so much by a corporal as by a spiritual transitioÌ„ Ambrose Perhaps tâ—ou wilt say I â—ee the likenes I see not the truth of blood But it hath a resemblaÌ„ce For as thou tookest a resemblance of his death so doest thou drink a resemblance of his precious blood to this end that there should be no horror of blood and yet it might worke the price of our saluation and the grace of our redemption might remaine Therfore for a similitude thou receauest the Sacrament sed ver ae naturae gratiaÌ„ virtuteÌ„que consequeris but thou obtainest therby the grace vertue of the true nature Gelasius By the sacraments which we receiue wee be made partakers of the diuine nature they truely represent to vs the vertues and effects of that Principal mysterie Hilarius These things tasted taken bring this to passe that Christ remaineth in vs this is The vertue of that table to quicken the receiuers Leo In that mystical distribution of the spirituall nourishment that is giuen this is taken that receiuing the vertue of the heauenly meate we may be chaunged into his flesh who was made flesh for vs. Chrysostom Let vs come to the spirituall dugge of this chalice and suck thence the grace of the spirit Austen The Sacrament is one thing the vertue of the Sacrament is an other thing Euery man receiueth his part whereby grace itselfe is called parts and where the Sacraments were common to all grace was not common to all which is the vertue of the Sacraments And againe The Capernites thought he would haue giuen them his body but he told them hee would ascend to heauen no doubt hee ment whole When you shall see the sonne of man ascendingâ— where hee was before surely then shal you see that he doth not giue his body that way which you imagine surely then shal you perceiue that his grace is not consumed with biting Euthymius He doth change these things vnspeakably into his very body that quickneth and into his very precious blood and into the grace of them bothâ— We must therfore not looke to the nature of the things proposed at the Lords table but vnto the vertue of them Wherefore Theodoretes wordes are most true The signes which are seene Christ did honor with the names of his body and blood not chaunging the nature or substance of them but casting grace vnto nature And so did Ambrose meane when hee sayde If there bee so great strength in the word of the Lord Iesu that all thinges beganne to bee when they were not howe much more shall it bee of force that the mysticall elementes should be the same they were before and yet bee chaunged into an other thing The same in earthly matter and substaunce which they were before chaunged in vertue power and working whereby wee see they beare not onely the names but also the fruites and effectes of those thinges whose Sacraments they bee This is their doctrine touching the visible part of this Sacrament which is seene with eyes felt with handes and â—rused with teeth of that there is no doubt but it entereth our mouthes and resteth in our bowels and that for the causes which I before rehearsed aâ—â—er consecration is euâ—ry where called by thâ—m the Lordes body but that the naturall fleshe of Christ which is thâ— other and inwarde part of the Sacrament entereth the mouth or abideth the teeth or passeth downe the throate or loâ—geth in the stomack this is a position wholy repugnant both to Fathers and Scriptures Doe you not know sayth Christ that whatsoeuer thing from without entereth into a man can not defile him because it entereth not into his heart but into the beâ—lie Then by the iudgement of our Sauiour nothing can enter â—oth the hâ—aâ—t the bâ—lly but the flesh of Chrisâ— entereth into the hâ—art ergo 〈…〉 The bellie saieth Paul is for meates meates for the bellie and God will destroy both it and them the bodie of Chrâ—st Gâ—d wâ—ll not destroy it is therefore no meate for the bellie If not for the â—â—lliâ— then not for the mouth because eueâ—ie thing that entereth the mouth goeth into the bellie and so foorth to the â—raught But so basely to thâ—nk of the flâ—sh of Christ is apparent and 〈◊〉 wickednesse eâ—go the fleshe of Christ neither fillâ—th our bellies nor â—ntâ—râ—th ouâ— moâ—â—â—â— For nothing that entereth the mouth can either defile or sanctifie Meatâ—s saith Paul whiâ—h passe by the mouth doe not commend vs vnto â—od neither doeth the kingâ—om of God which is our sanctificationâ— conâ—â—â— of mâ—ats and drinkes but Christ with his blood doeth sanctifie the people and hee that â—atâ—th my flâ—sh drinketh my blood saith â—e remaineth in mee and I in him and hath eternall life ergo neâ—ther his fleshe nor â—â—s blood enter ouâ— mâ—utheâ— To be short Christ dwelleth not in bellies by locall comprehension but in our hearts by faith his flâ—he seedeth not â—ur bodies for a tiâ—e but our soules for euer his wordes were spoken not of our mouthes which beâ—leâ—ue not â—ut of our spirites which haue no fleshe nor boanes and consequently neither teeth to grinde nor iawes to swallow but onely â—aith and vnderstanding Lette all this bee â—â—â—de if the learned and auncient Fathers doe not conclude the same Chrysostome Care not for the nourishment of the bodie but of the spirit Christ is the bread which â—eeâ—â—th not the bodie but the soule and filleth not the belly but the minde Ambrose Christ is in that sacrament because it is the bodie of Christ. It is therefore no bodily but Ghostly meate NOT THIS BREAD which entereth into the bodie but the bread of eternall life is it that vpholdeth the substaunce of our soule Cyprian As often as we doe this wee wheâ— not our teeth to bite but we breake the sanctified bread with a sincere faith Cyril Let vs therefore as our Sauiour saith labour not for the meate which goeth into the bellie but for the spirituall foode which confirmeth our harts and leadeth vs to eternall life Austen It is not lawfull to deuoure Christ with teeth Prepare not your iawes but your harts We take but a morsel our hart is replenished Therfore not that which is seen but that which is beleued doth feed Why prouidest thou thy teeth thy belly Beleeue thou hast eaten Beâ—traÌ„ At
doubted but the trueth was present with the signe the spirite with the sacrameÌ„t as Cyprian saith We knew there could not follow an operation if there went not a presence before Set a side your carnal imaginations of Christ couered with accidences his flesh chammed betweene your teeth and say what you will either of his inuiâ—â—ble presence by power and grace or of the spiritual and effectuall participation of his flesh and bloud offered and receiued of the faith-full by this Sacrament for the quickening and preseruing of their soules and bodies to eternall life we ioyne with you no wordes shal displease vs that any way declare the trueth or force of this mysterie Your locall compassing of Christ with the shewes and fantasticall appearances of bread wine your reall grinding of his flesh with your iawes these be the points that we deny to be Catholike these doe the fathers refute as erroneous and in these your owne fellowes be not yet resolued what to say or what to hold Phi. Be not we resolued what to hold of Christes reall being in the Sacrament and the corporall eating his flesh with our mouthes Theo. How you be secretly resolued I know not your iudgementes laid downe to the world in writing are cleane contrarie Phi. Ours Theo. Whose said I but yours Phi. Howsouer in other thinges we retaine the libertie of the Schooles to dispute pro con yet in this you shall finde vs all together Theo. Together by the eares as dogges for bones Omit your contentions what the pronowne H O C supposeth what the verbe E S T â—ignifieth when and how the bread is abolished whether by conuersion or annihilation what bodie succeedeth and whether with distinction of parts and extension of quantity or without what subiect the accidents haue to hang on whether the aire or the body of Christ what it is that soureth and putrifieth in the formes of bread and wine whether it be the same bodie that sitteth in heauen and if it be how so many contradictions may be verified of one the same thing Omit I say these with infinite other like contentions the corporall eating of christ with your mouthes are you all agreed about it Philan. We are Theo. Your two Seminaries are perhaps because they hearken rather for sedition in the realme than for Religion in the Schooles But the great Rabbins of your side are they in one opinion concerning this matter Phi. Great and small consent togither against you Theo. Against trueth they doe but in their owne fantasticall error they doe not The cheefest Pillours of your church when they come to that point which is now in handling wander in the desert of their owne deuises as men forsaking and forsaken of trueth Your Gloze is content if a man gape wide that the body of christ shall enter his mouth but he holdeth it for an heresie that the teeth should touch the same and therefore when the iawes beginne to close he dispatcheth away the body of christ in post towards heauen Certum est It is no coniecture but certaine that as soone as the formes of bread be pressed with the teeth tam cito presently the bodie of christ is caught vp into heauen Durandus is more fauourable to the teeth and will haue christ present in the mouth chamme he that list till his â—awes ake but hee is as strait laced against the stomack as the glozer is against the teeth and wil by no meanes haue the bodie of christ to passe thither building himselfe on these wordes of Hugo Christ is corporally present in visu in sapore whiles wee see or tast the sacrament As long as our bodily senses are affected so long his corporall presence is not remooued but when once the senses of our bodie beginne to faile that we neither see nor tast the formes then must wee seeke no longer for a corporall presence but retaine the spirituall because christ passeth from the mouth neither to heauen as the Gloze said nor to the stomack as the rest affirme but to the hart And better it is that he goe straight to the mind than descend to the stomacke Others is whome Bonauenture more inclineth will no way but Christ must take vp his lodging as wel in the stomacke as in the mouth maâ—y thence they suffer him not to wagge neither vpward nor downward whatsoeuer become of the accidentâ—l forms of bread and wine And lest it should be â—hought as Durand and Hugo say that the bodie of Christ goeth to the hart he repâ—ieâ—h that Quantum ad substantiam corporis certum est quod non vadit in meâ—tem sed vtrum sic vadâ—t in ventrâ—m dubium est propter diuersitatem opinionum as touching the substance of his bodie it is cleare that he passeth not to the mind but whether he so come that is in the substance of his bodie from the mouth to the belliâ— this is yet in doubt by reason of the diueâ—sitie of opinions in so great varietie what to hold is haâ—d to iudge Yet he liketh not that Aut mus in ventrem traijceret aut in cloacam descenderet the bodie of Christ shuld goe into the bellie of a mouse or be cast foorth by the draught because the eares of well disposed persons would abhorre that sidiceremus haeretici infideles deriderent nos irriderent and if we should defend that the heretiks and infidels would iest at vs and laugh vs to scorne This notwithstanding Alexander de Hales in spiâ—e of al heretikes and infidels â—entereth on it If a dog or an hogge saith he should eat the whole consecrated host I see no cause but the Lords bodie should goe therewithall into the bellie of that dog or hog Thomas of Aquine sharpely reprouâ—th them which thinke otherwise Some haue saide that as soone as the Sacrament is taken of a mouse or a dog streight way the bodie and bloud of Christ cease to be there but this is a derogation to the trueth of this Sacrament In â—auour of Thomas Petrus de Palude Ioannes de Burgo Nicolaus de Oâ—bellis with the whole sect of Thomists neither few in number nor mean in credite with the church of Rome defend the same yea where the master of the sentences seemed to shrinke from this loathsome position It may wel be said that the bodie of Christ is not receined of brute beasts the facultie of diuines in Paris with full consent gaue him this check here the master is refused And for feare lest the field should be wonne without him in steppeth Antonius Archbishoppe of Florence and recompenseth his late comming with his lewd writing First hee telleth how Petrus de Palude dressed the Glâ—ze for saying that Christ is caught vp to heauen as soone as the formes of the sacrament are pressed with our teeth Quod dicere est haereticum which
not supreme ouer them Atha sought to the west Emperour and to al the west Bishops that his cause might be heard in a Councel Socrat. lib. 2. Cap. 15. Athanasius cause intimated to al the west Bishops Iulius had the consent of both parts that a councel should be called Athanas. eadem Apolog. Socrat. lib. 1. Cap. 11. Episto Iulij ad eos qui ex Antiochia scripserunt citatur ab Athanasio Apologia 2. Iulius pretendeth not Peters keyes for his authority This spirit differeth much from the late spirit of Rome Idem in Epist. Iudij Athana Apologia 2. Athana heard and restored by a councel The councel willed Iulius to write in his own name because the Arrians wrate to him and not to them Idem in Epist. Iulij Iulius claimeth an equalitie with the East Bishops no supremacie ouer them Ibidem in Episto Iulij They should haue written to all the west Bishops not to the Bishop of Rome alone Socrat. lib. 2. Cap. 15. Idem lib. 3. Cap. 17. In Epist. Iulij By reason his place was first and after to the rest Sozomen lib. 3. Cap. 10. In weightie matters the consent of al the Patriarks was to be required In Epistola Iulij Socrat. lib. 2. Cap. 17. Sozome lib. 3. Cap. 10. The deposition of Athanasius a matter of great weight Euseb. lib. 7. Cap. 30. Sozome lib. 3. Cap. 7. The Arrians sought by deposing him to posses the East Church Iulius when he coulde doe no good in Athanasius cause besought the west Emperor to put to his helping hand Sozome lib. 3. Cap. 10. Sozome lib. 3. Cap. 11. Athanasius with teares requesteth a councel of the west Emperour Theodoret. lib. 2. Cap. 4. Socra lib. 2. Cap. 20. The Emperours letters for Athanasius restitution Ambros. de incarnatio Domin sacrament Cap. 5. Cyprian sermo 5. de lapsâ— What Chrysostome requested of Innocentius The Bishops of the west Church were to consent before the sentence could be giuen Chrysost. Episto 1. ad Innocent tomo 5. Chrysost. vt supra Eadem episto ad Innocentium Chrysost. maketh this petition to all the west Bishops Ibidem A verbe of the singular number thrust in among verbes of the plural to claw the Bishop of Rome Theodores lib. 5. Cap. 34. A bul absurdly forged to make men beleeue the Pope did excoÌ„municate the Emperour for Chrysost. banishment Nicepho lib. 13. Cap. 34. Cronologia Canisij The Bull proued to be forged Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 18. The first yere of Chrysost banishment Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 19. The same yeare the Empresse died Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 20. The second yeare of his banishment Eodem Capite The third yeare Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 21. The fourth yeare Chryso himselfe died Sozome lib. 8. cap. 27. 28. The Bull supposeth the Empresse to be liuing after Chrysostoms death Niceph. lib. 13. Cap. 34. A blind Prophet to threaten that shee should shortly die which was dead foure yeares before Sozome lib. 8. Cap. 28. Niceph. lib. 13. Cap. 33. Chrysostom appealed not to the Bishop of Rome but to a Councel Socra lib. 6. Cap. 15. Episto 1. ad Innocentium Sozome lib. 8. Cap. 28. Ibidem The Popes legates sent awaie with reproch They were punished by the Princes law that did communicate with the Bishop of Rome Niceph. lib. 13. Cap. 30. Sozome lib. 8. Cap. 24. Theodoret. lib. 5. Cap. 34. Chrysost. enemies were men of good accompt in the church Socrat. lib. 7. Cap. 2. Theodor. lib. 5. Cap. 35. Epistola 1. ad Innocentium Socrat. li. 6. Cap. 23. â—eo Epist. 64. 69. Niceph. lib. 14. Cap. 27. Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 21. Chrysost. very passionate Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 18. What help Saint Austen and others sought of Innocentius Inter August Epist. 90. They requested Innocentius to concur with them in the condemnation of Pelagianisme Idem Epist. 90. Inter August Epist. 93. The Bishops of Rome will quickly take enough vpon them What is ment by referring matters to Peter Censura in Epist 90. 93. Basill wrote to the West Bishops in generall but neuer to the Bishop of Rome The end why the East Bishops sought to the West Basilij epistola 48. ad Athan. Basilij Epist. 61. occidentalibus frasribus Basilij Epist. 69 Italicis ac Galliâ— Basilij epist. 70. Galliae Italiae episc Marke what thinges Basill requested of the West Bishops Basilij epist. 74. occidentalibus episc The greater number and the further off the lesse suspected of the people Ibidem Basilij epist. 52. ad AthanasiuÌ„ The Bishop of Rome might counsell but not coÌ„maund Why Basill required messengers from the West patriarke Basil epist. 52. Ibidem S. Hierom coÌ„sulting Damasus Hiero. Damas. Episto tom 2. Ibidem Epist. sequent ad Damasum Epist. ad Damasum prior S. Hierom preferreth the West Church before the East as more syncere in faith and not Rome before all the world Ibidem S. Hierom sought no resolution in faith at Damasus mouth but letters to keepe him froÌ„ trouble in a strange place Ibidem Ibidem Ibidem Epist. ad Damasum Super illam Petram in HieroÌ„ stand fitter to be referred to Christ than to Peter Hieron ad Marcellum aduersus Montanum tomo epi. 2. Vpon this rocke diuersly expounded of the fathers Aug. de verbis Domini secundum Mat. serm 13. The Church built on none but on Christ. Hilar. de Trin. lib. 2. Ibidem lib. 6. Ambros. in 2. cap. Epist. ad Ephesioâ— Idem de incarnat Dominici sacrament cap. 5. Chrysost. homil 55. in Matth. Bede in cap. 21. Iohannis 1. Cor. 3. Peter laide in the foundation of the Church as a principal meÌ„ber thereof Origen in 16. Mat. tract 1. Hieron lib. 1. aduersus Iâ—uiniaman Ephes. 2. Galat. 2. Neither of these constructions make for the church of Rome Tertul. de praescription Cyprian lib. 1. Epi. 3. Ad Marcellum tomo epistolaruÌ„ 2. Testimonia Hieron Damas. quoniaÌ„ vetusto tomo 2. The house of God is the Church of God and not the Church of Rome What S. Augustine meaneth by Peters seat Aug. in Psalm contra partem Donati From not in Peters seat Why may not ipsa est Petra be referred to Peters person as well as super hanc Petram in the Gospel as the Iesuits would haue it Cyprian de vnitate Reclesiae Catholicae S. Cyprian lately falsified by the papists A Canon of Bruges with his blind CaÌ„bron copie hath inlarged CypriaÌ„s text against all the copies of christendom Either the Cambron copie or all the written copies in the world must be corrupted which of these twaine thinke you do the Iesuits chose Distinct. 39. qui cathedram Gratian lately augmented as well as Cyprian Caus. 24 quaest 1. loquitur Dominus ad Petrium This place was not in the auncient decrees Glos ibidem qui CathedraÌ„ The glosse lately forged as wel as Gratians text And al this to make CypriaÌ„ speake cleane contrarie to himself within the compasse of eight lines Cyprian de
vmitate Ecclesiae Peter the first stone that Christ laid in the foundatioÌ„ of his church Cyprian de vmitate Ecclesiae Exordium and fundamentum all one Peter at this day lieth in the foundation of the church where Christ placed him Galat. 4. Ephes. 2. Heb. 12. Chalcedonens concilij actio 1. Leo tooke Theodoretes part against Dioscorus Euagrius lib. 1. cap. 10. Leo Epist. 61. ad TheodoretuÌ„ Chalcedonens Concilij actio 8. Their examples proue the Bishop of Rome had no such power as he now claimeth The Pope besought the Emperour with sighes teares for a Councel and could not preuaile In all these examples the Bishop of Rome neuer so much as alleadged or mentioned his vniuersall power which your Iesuites defend As the Bishop of Rome resisted others so others resisted him Who they were that resisted the Bishop of Rome Galat. 2. Ibidem Paul resisting Peter that after his installation at Rome if the Romish account be true which most men doubt Euseb. Chronic. in anno 44. Galat. 2. The Papistes make Peter a Nonresident Rhemish annor in Epi. ad Gal. cap. 2. vers 11. Whether Paul might resist Peter is an vngodly doubt Polycarpus withstood Anicetus for the obseruation of Easter Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 26. Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 25. Polycrates withstood Victor for the same cause Ibidem A great multitude of Bishops with Polycrates against Victor Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 26. Victor reproued by his owne side for offering to excommunicate the churches of Asia that stood against him Cyprian lib. 1. Epist. 4. Cyprian Epist. ad Pompeium contra Epist. Stephan CypriaÌ„s stoutnesse against Stephanus Bishop of Rome Ibidem Cyprian in an ill cause resisting the Bishop of Rome did and doth go for a Martyr and father of the church Flauianus withstood 4. Bishops of Rome though their cause were not much amisse Sozom. lib. 7. cap. 3. Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 23. Who tooke part with Flauianus against the Bishops of Rome The Prince willeth Flauianus to keepe his Church though foure Popes for 17. yeares togither impugned him Ibidem Ibidem Nice lib. 14. cap. 27. Cyrill esteemed not the communion of the Bishop of Rome Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 34. Those resistances were offered not by priuate persons but by Councels and Countries Euseb. lib. 5. Cap. 24. 25. Ibidem Cap. 26. Concil Cartha de haeret baptisandis inter opera Cypriani Sozome lib. 7. Cap. 11. Theodoret. li. 5. Cap. 23. Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 18. The sixt couÌ„cel of Carthage stoutly resisted the Bishop of Rome and conuinced him of forgery Vide Concilium Carthaginense sextum Cap. 3. Bonifacius saith the diuelled Saint Augustine the rest to be sawcie with the Bishop of Rome Bonifacius secundus ad Eulalium de reconcilia Carthaginens Eccl. Concilio tomo 1. Aphric concilij Cap. 92. Appeales to Rome condemned by Saint August and his Collegues Aphric concil Cap. 101. Aphric concil Cap. 105. The fathers neuer heard of Christs vicar general Where then are appeales to Rome The holy Ghost as wel â—â— one proâ—â—ace as in 〈◊〉 The Councel of Nice corrupted by the Bishop of Rome The Popes claime called the smokie pride of the world What the Councel of Africa denied to the Bishop of Rome Was this resisted or no Epist. Aegiptiorum ad MarcuÌ„ pro exempla Niceni Concilij tomo Conciliorum 1. The Papists to saue the Popes credit haue coÌ„mitted shameful forgeries Rescriptum Iulij contra orientales pro Athanasio And he a wise man to chose the worst Episto Africani conci ad Bonif. Cap. 101. No decretals can discredit the diligence of the African Bishops Concilium Carthaginense sextum Cap. 9. Concilij Afric Cap. 102. 103. Their Decretales are too yong to out-face the authenticke copies Ruffin lib. 1. Cap. 6. The Popes silence then conuinceth this forgerie since Marke the likelihoode of this fable and see the shamefastnes of Papists that mocke the worlde with them Extat Socratis lib. 1. Cap. 9. The Canons burnt before they were made Sozome lib. 1. Cap. 17. Beda distinc 16. sexta Sozom. lib. 3. Cap. 1. Athanas. not neere Aegypt when this letter was written thence in his name Rescriptuuâ— Marci Athanasio Aegyptijs Vide Sozome lib. 1. Cap. 25. 28. Concil Africa Cap. 102. An other forgerie vnder Iulius name worse than the former Rescript Iulij ad Orientales Cap. 29. The Papists haue forged a decretal in Iulius name where as his true letter is extant in Athanasius Apologie Socrat. lib. 1. Cap. 40. A man may feele this forgerie with his fingers Sozome lib. 3. Cap. 5. Athanasij Apologia 2. The first dated Calend. Octobris the second calend Nouembris the same yeare Euagâ— li. 1. ca. 4. Theodoret against the Popes deputy The Legats of Rome threatned by the first Ephesine Councel In Apologet. Cyril mandatuÌ„ Synod Ephesâ— Vide concilij Chalcedonens actioneÌ„ 16. The great councel of Chalcedon ouerruleth the Bishop of Rome Actio 16 concil Chalcedonen The Popes Legates could not then commaund in general couÌ„cels The Councel of Chalcedon proceeding without the Romish Legates Chalcedo CoÌ„cil cano 28. actio 15. repetitur actio 16. For what cause Rome had the supremacie giuen her Why Leo was so earnest against this Canon The Romish Legates their allegations reiected the second time in the Councel of Chalcedon EiusdeÌ„ Concilij â—câ—io 16. The selfsame priuileges that Rome had giuen to Constantinople The Pope had no negatiue in Councels Canons made in Counceles mauger the Bishop of Rome his legates Liberatus Cap. 13. Concilij sexti Constantinop Cap. 36. How the Popes law vseth ancient customes Distinct. 22. Renouantes A monsterous corruption of a councel turning an affirmatiue into a negatiue Africani concil Cap. 92. The Canon law glozeth the Councell of African quite against the text Caus. 2. quaest 6. placuit Saint Austen forged to make the Popes decretals of equall authoritie with the scriptures De doctrina Christiana lib. 2. Cap. 8. Distinct. 19. In canonicis Rubricae Ibidem Glosa Ibidem The britanes 4000 yeare agoe woulde yeelde no subiection to the Popes legate Beda lib. 2. Cap. 2. Bed histo gentis Anglorum lib. 2. Cap. 2. Galfrid monemutens lib. 8. Cap. 4. 1200 monks in one time chose rather to die than to be subiect to the Bishop of Rome Concili Laterae sub Innocentio 3 Cap. 4 The Grecians detesting the Bishop of Rome Paul Aemil. in Philippo 4. Idem Aeneas Syluius lib. 9. epitomes in decades Blondi Sessio vltima Florentiae in literis vnionis Graecorum responsio in vltima sessione Florentiae Platina in Eugenio 4. Luitprand li. 6. Cap. 10. Ibidem Cap. 7. The germans against the Bishop of Rome Platina in Gregorio 6. Cronicon Abba Vrspergensis Ibidem anno 1080. This was he that first ventred to depose Princes Ibidem anno 1083. The Romans reiected him as wel as the Germans did Platina in Gregorio 7. The later Italians make Hildebrand a Sainct for
honor that they make their God To giue Christs honor to an Image in respect of the Originall is a seelie shift To adore the Image in respect of the Originall is in summe the very same answere that al the Pagans gaue when they were reproued for their Idolatrie Adoration of Images neuer hard of in the church before the 2. Nicen Councell which was 790. yeres after Christ. Painting of stories in the Church is a matter somwhat ancient but yet not catholike These fathers were Catholike yet repelled painting in Churches Nicenae Synodi 2. actio 6. The 2. Councell of Nice deluded the fathers that were alleaged against them Epiphanius pretended to be forged but without all cause Ibidem Eusebius condemned by them for an heretike but falsely Nicenae Synodi 2. act 6. Ibidem Ibidem Chrysost. Amphilochius Asterius plainly shifted off by the Councel of Nice Contra Celsum lib. 7. Bowing to Images condemned * August de vera Religio cap. 55. Hieron in 6. cap. Daniel Gerson in compendio Theolog. de 10. praeceptis Some of their owne church haue condemned bowing to Images as contrarie to the lawe of God Saint August abused to make for Images August de doctrin Christ. lib. 3. cap. 9. Things ordained by God must haue their reuerence though they be but creatures marie adoration they must not haue * August lib. eodem cap. 9. de doctina christian lib. 3. c. 5. * cap. 8. Images vnprofitable signes and not ordeined of God * cap. 7. * cap. 8. The lawe of god condemneth bowing vnto Images which precept the Church must obey without all shifts or other respects Praying in a straunge tongue Custome without truth is the rottennes of errour * Cypr. ad Pompei contra epistâ— Stephan * Tertull. de virgin veland * Ex sentent Concil Carthag inter â—pâ—â—a Cyprian * August debap contra Donat. lib. 3. cap. 6. Iohn 14. Ephes. 1. The Rhemish Test. vpon the 1. Cor. 14. 1. Cor. 14. The place of S. Paul to the Corinthians against praying in a strange tongue The Iesuites labour toothe and nayle to shift off this place * This is the summe of all their declaration vpon the 1. Cor. 14. in their Remish Testament The two vertues of their Rhemish annotations The two vertues of their Rhemish annotations The words strange or vnknowne put into the text in an other print for the opening of Sainct Pauls minde Sainct Paules words are most absurd if they be vnderstood of knowne toungsâ— The text cannot stand except you adde the worde vnknowne to it Sainct Paul so expoundeth himself * Vers. 9. * 11. * 16. An other tongue is a strange toung which is all one with an vnknowne tongue Chrysost. in 1. Corinth 14. The fathers interpreting Sainct Paul adde those wordes which we doe * Ibidem * Ibidem Ambros. in 1. Corinth 14. * Ibidem * Ibidem Ibidem Haymo in 1. Cor. 14. * Ibidem August de Genes ad literam lib. 12. cap. 8. Mark what a tongue is by Saint Austens interpretation The Rhemish Test. 1. Corinth 14. He that knoweth not the sense is not edified but he that knoweth not one worde as in a strange tongue is a thousand tymes lâ—sse edified Speake to children in a strange tongue and they will either fly from you for feare or laugh you to skorne Hebrew doth edify no more than Irish if a man vnderstand neither De Gen. ad litâ— lib. 12. cap. 8. Chrysost. in 1. Cor. 14. Ambros. in 1. Cor. 14. Nothing doth edifie except it bee vnderstood The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. A wretched cauill of the Iesuits because the people vnderstand not euerie mysterie of the Psalmâ—â— or lessons to say they were as good not vnderstaÌ„d a word 2. Peter 3. If the Psalmes and lessons do not edifie the worde of god doth not edifie * Rom. 15. * 2 Timoth. 3. The rest of our prayers are so plaine that no man can pretend lack of vnderstanding them except he be a naturall They be mad Christians and of your making that vnderstand not these things This is a wise iest of the Iesuits because the people vnderstande Compare this similitude with the Iesuits obiection and tell me what they differ Yf seruice in â— known toung do not â—difie what doth seruice in an vnknowne The Iesuits waie to edifie is to let the people not vnderstand a word of their praiers Euerie toung barbarous to him that vnderstandeth it not * 1 Corinth 14. The Rhemish Testament 1 Corinth 14. Act. 2. The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. Barbarous that is which is not vnderstood what tongue soeuer it be 1. Cor. 14. * Hieron in 1. Cor. 14. * Chrysost. in 1. cor 14. hom 35. * Ibidem The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. Hebrew Greeke and Latine were not vnderstoode of the ciuil people in euery great Citie The Gretians accounteth the Latine tongue to be barbarous in respect of then own Plautus in prolog Asinariae Strabo Geographiae lib. 1. Rom. 1. We despise not these tongues as barbarous in themselues but shew what Saint Paul meaneth by this word Tristium lib. 5. elegia 11. * And you shall neuer proue he spake not of them in the meane time the Apostles words he indiffereÌ„tly for all tongues In the world and none of them be generall speaches extending to all the toungs that are * Chrysost. in 1. Corinth 14. * In all toungs he that is not vnderstood is barbarous to the hearer Chrysost. Ibidem Chrysostom exemplifieth Sainct Paules woords twise together by the latine tongue Though wee praie in latine or what toung whatsoeuer Ambros. in 1. Corinth 14. * Ibidem By Saint Ambrose iudgement the Apostles spake principally of those that vsed the hebrew toung in their Sermons and praiers when the people vnderstood â—hem not Haymo in 1. Corinth 14. Haymo Ibidem The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. That he speaketh not of Church seruice is proued by inuiâ—cible arguments Sainct Paule by preaching doth not exclude praying but seuerally mentioneth them both The Church in her diuine seruice must haue both preaching and praying Roma 10 The worde engendreth faith and faith produceth praier Act 2. * These three were the publike exercises of Christes Church vnder the Apostles If the Church seruice consisted of these three then were they all three parts of the church seruice The Church in the Apostles time had no set order of publike praier as the Iesuites dreame In the primatiue Church the pastours and ministers praied and gaue thanks at the spirit directed their hearts lips * God regardeth not these solemnities of the Iesuits which they suppose to be the highest points of godlines All things were doone in the first Church by the miraculous working of the holy Ghost 1. Corinth 12. The gifts of gods spirit at the first erection of the Church 1. Corinth 14. With the spirit is with the miraculous gift of the spirit The presence and consent of the people
the meate is performed by those wordes but the vse end of the supper is directed by the other The precept that Christ gaue vs to follow him preciselie concerneth his actions The Rhemish Test. fol. 452. nu 24. take eate To what end is meate if it be not eaten The Rhe. Test. Ibidem Eating and drinking are not essentiall parts of the Sacrament but of the supper they are The Iesuites neglect â—hat â—â—ich Christ 〈◊〉 and busie 〈…〉 which he did 〈◊〉 * Aâ—â— that is 〈◊〉 by the Poet Viâ—gil câ—m faciam vitula * 1. Cor. 11. Mat. 26. * Oâ—ige in Matt. tract 35. Chrys. in 1. Cor. ho. 27. read the very words of Christ in the future tense a Hebr. 10. Christ ordained a Sacrament to be diuided not a sacrifice to be offered * De consecrat dist 2. § Relatum est They binde the Priest to coÌ„municate The Priest charged to do as Christ did The words of Christ rather binde him to distribute thaÌ„ him selfe to coÌ„municate The Priest in euerie priuate Masse doth make a mock of these words take ye eate ye The Rhemish Test. fol. 451. nu 23. in the night The Church must not choose what she will follow but rather obey that which Christ commanded The primatiue Church knewe not what Priuate Masse ment a Apostol can 9. b Contil. Antioâ— caâ—on 2. a Dionys. ecclesi hiâ—rarch cap. 3. b Iusti. Apol. 2. They delaied their wine with water lest meere and strong wine should annoie anie of the communicaÌ„ts c De cons. dist 2. § peracta d Greg. Dialog lib. 2. cap 23. e De cons. dist 2. ¶ Si quis f â—eg Franciae lib. 1. cap. 132. g Rationaìe diâ—â—no officio lib. 4. cap. 53. No priuate Masse in the primatiue Church by their owne confession h Chry. hom 27. in 1. Cor. i Idem hom in dictum Pauli oportâ—t haereses esse k Theod. in 1 Cor. 11. l Haym in 1. Cor. 11. The verie name of the Masse as all auncient writers vse it impugneth their priuate Masse The Lordes cup rasâ—ly taken from the people Mat. 26. Luk. 22. The cup was deliuered at the same time to the same persons with the bread ergo both or neither pertaine to the people Gâ—râ—rd Lorich de missa publica â—râ—rogâ—nda If your owne â—â—mpanions 〈◊〉 tell you 〈…〉 take 〈◊〉 to your 〈◊〉 consciences m Mat. 26. n Mark 14. o Luk. 22. The blood of Christ was shedde for the people as well as for the Priest the cup therefore belongeth to the one as wel as to the other p Chrys. hom 18. in 2. Cor. One cup proposed to all both people and Priest q 1. Cor. 2. r 1. Cor. 11. s 1. Cor. 10. S. Paul extendeth Christes words drinke you al of this to the whole Church The people of Corinth by S. Pauls instruction receiued from Christ himselfe were partakers of the Lords cup. * In 1. Cor. 10. The latin fathers receiued those wordes we all are partakers of one cup into S. pauls text * In 1. Cor. 10. The latin fathers receiued those wordes we all are partakers of one cup into S. pauls text * In 1. Cor. 10. The latin fathers receiued those wordes we all are partakers of one cup into S. pauls text * In 1. Cor. 10. The latin fathers receiued those wordes we all are partakers of one cup into S. pauls text 1. Cor. 11. Did S. Paul speake these wordes to the Priests alone or to the people also 1. Cor. 12. We all as well the people as the pastours The Iesuites cannot take the cup from the people without subuerting these maine places of Scripture and parts of Christs institution The Catholike Church ministred the communion to the people in both kinds a Dionys. eccles hierarch ca. 3. b Ignat. ad Philadelphâ—ens c Athanas. in 1. Cor. 11. d Cyprian lib. 1. epis .2 e August quaest super Leuiticum li. 3. cap. 57. f De conse dist 2. ¶ quia passus g Chrysost. hom 18. in 2. Cor. h De cons. dist 2. ¶ quid sit sanguis i Theoph. in 1. Cor. 11. k Hay in 1. Cor. cap 10. l Paschas de corpo saâ—gui Dom. cap. 43. Their halfe communion is so Catholik that the master of their sentences 1200. â—eres after Christ knewe it not m Sentent lib. 4. dist 1â— De consâ—â—ist 2. ¶ comp Glosâ— sa ibidem 1300 yeares after Christ there was no communion in one kinde but in case of necessitie As though the Church could haue cause or power to chaunge Christes ordinance Rationale diuinor officio lib. 4. cap. 42. Two weightie reasons for their communion in one kinde Gerson tract contra haeresin de communione Laicorum sub viraque specie The Catholik considerations for which the the Church of Rome abolished Christes institution To followe Christes institution is adiudged to be heresie and accursed with our late Romanists What the ancient Church of Rome thought of this mangling the communion De cons. dist 2. § Cum omne The people must haue the bread and the cup deliuered them seuerallie and asunder in both kindes Leo serm 4. de quadragessima The Manâ—châ—es the first authâ—â—s of the 〈…〉 〈…〉 in them as 〈◊〉 â—â— cons. dist 2. § Coâ—perimus To â—nstaine fâ—om the Lords cup is sacrilege Artic. 2. contra I pâ—sâ— Sarâ—â— To forbeare the Lords cup is sacrilege in all persons and ages as well as it was then in the Manichees Leo speaketh of Lor◠〈◊〉 though Gelasâ—us diâ—â—â—nt and calleth it sacrilege in them to reframe the Lords cup. Mat. 26. * 1. Cor. 11. a Chrysâ—st â—â—mi 18. in 2. Coâ— b De câ—â— dist 2. §. quâ—a passus c Theâ—phil in 1. Cor. cap. 11. d Paschas de â—â—rpore saâ—g Dom. cap. 43. If it be sacrilege in the Priest it is no lesse in the people They woulde haue it to be sacrilege to withstaÌ„d their fansies and to follow Christs commaundement Esa. 5. We maie wel forsake them that forsooke both God and their fathers before them The Iesuites can not heare of eating and drinking at the Lordes table on the peoples behalfe because they haue discharged them froÌ„ both 1. Cor. 11. 1. Cor. 10. Ioan. 6. The Rhe. Test. fol. 447. nâ— 21. â—you can not drinke The sacrifice of the Masse The Rhe. Test. fol. 447. Ibidem Their proofeâ— for the Sacrifice of the Masse The Rhe. Test. Ibidem They wil proue their sacrifice by S. paul himselfe God graunt you may haue eyes to see your follies Not one of all these scriptures or fathers maketh for the Sacrifice of their Masse The generall order of the Romish Religion is to keep the fathers phrases and to chaunge their faith How the Lordes supper maie truelie be called an oblation and a Sacrifice There are four kindes of Sacrifices in the Lords supper and not one of them is the popish Sacrifice There are four kindes of Sacrifices in the Lords supper and not one
for the redemption of man and the bloodshedding of our Sauiour expressed and resembled in that mysterie More than this no Catholique father euer taught and lesse than this our Churches doe not receiue Touching the Sacramentes I meane baptisme and the Supper if Christ and his Apostles did minister them Catholiquely wee can not fayle but doe the same wee swarue not a iote from their example the Scriptures will not lye let them bee iudges Shewe but one worde element or action added omitted or altered in either of them and we graunt your Apologie to be sound and good which otherwise we see to be replenished with many spitefull slaunders and shamefull errors But if the Catholicisme which you stand on were not knowen to them as in truth it was not the lacke of some ceremonies which be matters indifferent and set your abuses aside may be kept or left without hurting the faith or offending the godly can bee no iust cause for you to flie the realme and forsake the Prince The diuine seruice here established you may lewdly despise you shall hardly disproue the Psalmes that we sing be Dauids the bookes that we read be Canonical the praiers that we make be consonant to the rule proportiō of faith true godlines quitting them for our owne parts to the present possessioners incombents or to whom soeuer God shall permit Theo. You fled the Realme not forced to that extremitie but moued with a priuate dislike of the Princes regiment and therefore if the lack of your Countrey were not eased by many supplies both abroade as you graunt and from home as we know you may thanke your selues you were the first autors and wilfull contriuers of your owne woe You want no commodities nor curtesies in the common wealthes where you liue yet such is your Nicenes that you can not beare the ordinarie difficulties and accidents that follow strangers in euery place without sorowfull bewayling before God and often lamenting one to another the hard state of your long banishment Your dayly praiers haue their dayly purposes your continuall sighes and teares shewe the secret griefe you conceiue to see your counsels disclosed and attempts defeated which rather enforceth the sharpnes of your humor than the goodnes of your cause That you be willing to come home wee well beleeue howbeit that proueth not your departure lawful nor your returne peaceable The Wolfe would fayne be with the sheepe and the Lion is glad to bee with his pray Yet this is no token of their friendly meaning To preuent all suspicion of euill you deepely protest that you voyd your thoughts of honour and preferment relinquishing those to the present incumbents and addressing your selues to serue the poore soules to their saluation The strife betwixt vs is not for Bishoprickes and benefices but for Christs glorie and the Princes safetie whom God hath appointed both your and our Soueraigne and therefore your renouncing of titles and dignities before hand sauoreth of your accustomed vanitie and nothing concerneth the matter Saluation of soules is well pretended but ill perfourmed Your bores of oyle your glasses of holy water your fardles of other consecrated trifles wherewith you haue fraighted this Realme are slender helpes to saue soules nay rather your reconciling of those that receiue you to the Sea of Rome your trayning them to neglect of the scriptures and reuerence of your fansies your leading them from the Church of God and communion of their brethren to your barbarous and Idolatrous Masse your withdrawing them from their obedience to the Princes wholesome and Christian lawes is their vtter destruction and your assured condemnation Yet to proue your selues louing wormes you wish to be admitted to your Countrie in what state soeuer were it in penance and pouertie neuer so great euen so the snake being frozen lyeth quiet and still waxing once warme hee vseth not onely to stirre but also to sting Your sugred words can not sweeten the bitternes of your actions God hath blessed her Maiestie with greater respect of religion than to suffer the veneme of your doctrine to poyson her people and with better intelligence of your drifts than to harbour a rowte of Iesuites the very forerunners and factours of her open and professed enemie The Pageants of your holy father and founder were so lately tried and are so iustly feared that her highnes neither with her safetie may neither of her wisedome will permit you to beginne a newe reuell Her graue and worthie Counsell perceiue that a small leake sinketh a strong vessell and the least sparke kindleth a mightie flame Phi. Call you this answering You say what you list without warrant or witnes Theo. And what did you when you sent vs ouer whole chapters yea the most part of your Apologie bringing no better nor other reason nor proofe than your simple worde which is God knoweth a single proofe Phi. You will hardly speake well of our doings or writings Theo. Let your booke be seene If I lye reproue me Your first chapter hath in all fiue authorities and not one of them toucheth any matter in question The three first shewe that certaine Arrian Emperours suffered true and false religion in one Citie a proper president for Christian Princes the two next proue that godly men assembled in priuate houses when they coulde not in Churches for feare of persecution Wee neuer sayde otherwise Your seconde chapter hath fiue other places besides the first booke of Bede which wee doubt not of Three declaring that the Romanes twelue hundred yeres agoe were deuout and charitable which is nothing to our dayes or your purpose the other two you safely enforce to helpe the Sea of Rome and yet were they so ment they conclude but coldly for you Your third chapter alleageth S. Austen twise mary not against vs but at rouers to make vp your reckoning and once S. Hierom warning a gentlewoman of Rome to preferre the fayth of Innocentius and Anastasius which at that time he knew to be sound and syncere before certaine poysoned plants then freshly springing in Rome This aduise wee refuse not and at this day we seeke to recall your holy father from his newe found heresie and tyrannie to the right imitation of their fayth and humilitie that were godly learned and auncient bishops in that Sea before him On your fourth and fift chapters which are the chiefe strength and force of your Apologie you bestowe some more cost but not much or at lest not much to the matter in question Your fourth chapter euen at first entrance you fill the page with eleuen texts of scriptures declaring what promises assistance from God the true preachers and ministers of his word haue then alleage you S. Paul prohibiting women to teach or speake in the Church and S. Peter calling Princes humane creatures these be things that wee neither doubt of nor striue for This done you draw neere the
skirmish and arming your selues with three scriptures and seuen fathers you thinke to vanquish and ouerrunne the Princes power in causes ecclesiasticall but soft Sirs you mistake your weapons their force is not great The nation and kingdome sayth God to Sion that wil not serue thee shal perish The kingdome he sayth not the king but graunt it were directly spoken of kings what seruice that is which God requireth of kings if you doe not knowe S. Austen will tel you In this sayth he Kings serue God if their kingdomes they command that which is good and forbid that which is euill not in temporall affayres onely but in matters of religion also And againe Yee Kings serue Christ in making lawes for Christ. So that the cōmanding their people to reuerence the word and obey the will of God and the making of strait lawes to keepe men in the faith and Church of Christ that is I say the seruice which Princes owe to God and his Sion and which you deny lawful for them to medle with By the two next places of S. Paul you prone that Pastors Bishops be rulers of the Church That worde Rulers you catch hold of as if the wordes in S. Paul did not also signifie feeders and leaders which be the two signes and dueties of good shepheards and yet we neuer denied but the messengers and disposers of Gods mysteries by preaching the woord administring the sacraments and well vsing the keyes haue their internall and spirituall regiment ouer the soules and consciences as wel of Princes as others which is the true meaning of the place that you bring out of Nazianzene Athanasius Osius Leontius Hilarie and Ambrose sharply reproue Constantius Valentinian for taking vpon them to chaunge the faith abolish the godhead of Christ plainely told those Princes they were no iudges of faith nor arbiters of doctrine which was true which false neither might they so much as interpose their iudgement or authoritie whiles such cases were debated That very lesson haue wee from the beginning taught with our lippes sealed with our blood more stedfastly than you We neuer gaue prince nor Pope right to controle the trueth or reuerse the worde which God hath established in his Church and the constant auouching thereof against earthly States powers hath cost vs as you can not choose but knowe many thousande mens liues Yet this is no let but Princes as well as other priuate persons may trie spirits and beware false Prophets And this I trust you dare not impugne that Princes may doe that for Christ which you defend they must do for Antichrist graunt vs that we require no more Chrysostome is the last of the seuen Christ sayth he when he willed Peter to feede his sheepe cōmitted the charge of them to Peter Peters successors Meaning by Peters successors not onely the bishops of Rome but him selfe and all other Bishops as appeareth by his owne words in the same place This was Christes purpose at that time when he sayd feede my sheepe to teach Peter and the rest of vs howe well he loued his Church that therefore we also should take the charge and care of the same Church with al our hearts Ambrose extendeth the wordes of Christ in like manner to al Bishops preachers It was thrise repeated by the Lord feed my sheepe Which sheepe which flocke not onely Peter receiued then in charge but he with vs and wee all with him receiued them in cure And so doth Austen When it is said to Peter it is said to all Louest thou me Feede my sheepe That women may not vndertake this charge to feede Christs sheepe it was needelesse to cite Chrysostome S. Paul sayde it before in other wordes and wee bee farre from any such follie These bee the maine and mightie proofes wherewith you thought to shake the Princes seate which conclude vtterly nothing against that we defende nor against that her Maiestie claymeth or vseth The rest of your authorities which be sixe touch not vs at all nor any thing in question betwixt you and vs saue the last where S. Hierom writeth to Damasus He that gathereth not with thee scattereth Which words we graunt were very true when S. Hierom spake them for that Damasus rightly professed the Christian fayth which the Bishop of Rome now doeth not and by gathering with him is ment no subiection to him but a felowship with him in teaching the same trueth and keeping the bande of peace which is common to all Christians Your fift chapter which should cleere you from false doctrine and proue you to be good Catholiques hath in all but one Section of twentie sixe lines to that purpose the rest is a desperate discourse of your owne full of your bolde assertions vayne presumptions without scripture or father that helpeth you or hindereth vs. For prayer for the dead you alledge S. Augustine for honouring of Kelikes and Pilgrimage S Hierom for vocation of Saints worshipping the crosse and memories of Martyrs S. Cyril for the sacrifice of the Masse Saint Chrysostome for the corporall presence of Christ in the Sacrament the Lateran Councell for Images the second Councel of Nice Gregorie to Serenus and Damascene for the power of Priesthood to remit sinnes S. Ambrose A weake foundation to beare so great a frame Cyril Chrysostome and Ambrose in the places which you quote teache nothing lesse than those errors and abuses which you mayntaine The seconde Councell of Nice was very neere 800 the Lateran Councell aboue a thousand yeres after Christ both too yong to make any doctrine Catholique Gregorie liketh that stories should be painted in the Church but adoration of thē he detesteth which yet that wicked Councell of Nice did after establish Damascene you may take backe againe his credite is so smale that we neede not answere him S. Hierom is hoat against Vigilantius and so hoat that Erasmus is faine to say Conuiciis debacchatur Hieronimus Hierom rayleth without measure Yet the most honour that he gaue to the bodies or ashes of Martyrs by whom God after their deaths wrought great miracles was to be fairely wrapt and honestly kept in their Chappels The tending of tapers and setting vp of waxe candles before them he denieth to be vsed in the Church in other places if any such thing were he imputeth it to the vnskilfulnesse and simplicitie of some Lay men and deuout women that had zeale but not according to knowledge What is this for your defence You make newe Relikes you set foorth vnshamefast Legends and deuise false miracles to deceiue the people you giue them Pardons for manie thowsande thowsande yeeres you promise them helpe in all their needes and effect in all their desires you make a very marte of the graces and gyftes of God to cause men to runne from place to place from Saint to Saint
deponitur For heresie the Pope is ipso facto deposed and no inconuenience And to that ende hee alleadgeth Petrus de Palude saying Papa quando labitur in haeresin tunc â—o ipso est praecisus ab Ecclesia desinit esse caput The Pope when hee falleth into an heresie is presently cutte off from the Church and ceaseth to bee the heade of it So Gerson the Chauncellour of Paris Tam Papa quam Episcopus deuiabiles à fide The Pope may swarue from the fayth as well as an other Bishop The generall councell of Basill saith Saepe experti sumus legimus Papam errasse Wee haue often both found out by experience and reade that the Pope hath erred And againe Cum certum sit Papam errare posse For so much as it is certaine the Pope may erre Aeneas Syluius afterwarde Pius the seconde inueying against them that woulde not haue councels gathered without the Popes consent saith What remedie shall there bee if a sinnefull Pope trouble the Church if hee destroie soules if hee peruert the people with his euill example Si denique contraria fidei praedicet haereticisque dogmatibus imbuat subditos If he teach against the faith and infect those that be vnder him with hereticall opinions Cardinall Caietane and Pope Innocentius the fourth though they had good cause to fauour the See of Rome yet were they clearely resolued the Pope might erre and so were all the writers of your owne religion before this our age that euer I hearde of and euen at this day the sincerest of them dislike the vnshamefastnesse of your assertion Papa in fide errare potest vt melius sentientes tenent etiam ex hijs qui Papatui plurimum fauent Inter quos est Innocentius eius nominis quartus Pontifex in cap. 1. De summa Trinitate The Pope may erre in fayth as the truer opinion is euen of them that fauour the popedome verie much Amongest whome is Innocentius the fourth of that name Bishoppe of Rome writing vppon the first chapter De summa Trinitate Arboreus a Doctor of Paris and one of your chiefe Sorbonistes Papa in fide errare Potest Et tota mihi aberrare via videtur qui aliter sentit Assentantur sane Romano Pontifici qui faciunt cum immunem à lapsu haereseos schismatis The Pope may erre in fayth And he seemeth to mee to bee in foule errour that thinketh otherwise Surely they doe but flatter the Bishoppe of Rome that make him free from falling into heresie and schisme Erasmus pithily impugneth your inconsiderate follie If it bee true which some say that the Bishop of Rome can neuer erre iudicially what neede generall councels Why are men skilled in the lawes and learned in diuinitie sent for to councels if hee pronouncing can not erre To what purpose are so many Vniuersities troubled with handling questions of faith when truth may be had from his mouth Nay how commeth it to passe that the decrees of one Pope are repugnaÌ„t to the decrees of an other This perswasion of yours must needes be naught which so many of your owne side haue condemned before our dayes and the sobrest of your selues that haue written since our time doe vtterly disclaime And therefore aduise you whether you will faierly resigne this fansie or be conuinced by the verdict of your fellowes for men-pleasers and flatterers It is farre from a Catholike position which your owne church in the midst of darkenesse would neuer acknowledge and at this daie none defende but such hungrie ghestes as you be that gape for thankes and seeke to please Phi. You falsely charge vs with vnhonest respectes Theo. It is not my iudgement of you but theirs that otherwise haue no cause to thinke euill of you Phi. The reason that moueth vs so to say is for that we finde no Pope that euer erred Theo. You refuse Councels Fathers Stories and all that come in your way because you will not finde it Phi. We refuse not that is ancient or indifferent but onely such as we thinke partiall Theo. Then if there bee no cause why they should be partiall you will admit them for credible Phi. We will Theo. We expect no more What say you then to Clemens the first of that name as you make your account though wee thinke it a leude forgerie in his name Doe not your own Decrees report out of his decretall epistles that amongest christians al things ought to be common euen wiues and all Communis vita omnibus fratres necessaria est Communis enim vsus omnium quae sunt in hoc mundo omnibus esse hominibus debuit In omnibus autem sunt sine dubio coniuges A common life is necessarie for all men brethren the vse of all thinges that are in this world ought to be common to all men And in al things no doubt are wiues contained Phi. He meaneth not the carnall vse of women but their domestical seruice ought to be common Theo. So your gloze would make vp the breach but all in vaine For Socrates in Platoes common wealth whom your Clemens in this place citeth and calleth Graecorum sapientissimum the wisest of the Graecians rehearsing the prouerbe which Clemens here vseth inferreth that the coniunction of men women and procreation of children ought to bee common which is a monstruous and heinous errour And were that excused the the rest is a shamefull absurditie that all other thinges ought of necessitie to bee common amongst christians For the Scriptures do not exact that no maÌ„ should possesse any thing but onely that charitie should gladly distribute supply the wantes of such as neede Phi. Your selfe thinke this to be forged in Clementes name Theo. We do but you do not and therefore against you the instance is good The next is Tertullians testimonie who saith of the Bishop of Rome that he agnised the prophesies of Montanus and sent letters of communion and peace to the churches in Asia and Phrygia that were of that sect Phi. But hee reuoked those letters and ceased from that purpose as Tertullian also confesseth Theo. Hee reuoked them after they were sent and ceased from that which he first acknowledged Episcopum Romanum tunc agnoscentem prophetias Montani ex ea cognitione pacem Ecclesiis Asia Phrygiae inferentem falsa de ipsis prophetis adseuerando coegit literas pacis reuocare tam emissas a proposito recipiendorum schismatum concessare Praxeas the heretike forced the Bishoppe of Rome then agnising the Prophesies of Montanus and vppon good liking of them giuing peace to their Churches in Asia and Phrygia to reuoke his letters of coÌ„munion when they were sent and to cease from his purpose of embracing their doctrine Phi. Tertullian was of that sect himselfe and therefore no indifferent witnes Theo. Indifferent enough to report the fact though not to iudge
of the cause and we bring Tertullian not to commend Montanus error but to shewe what the Bishoppe of Rome did Phi. He beganne to like them but it tooke not effect Theo. Hee wrate letters of peace to the Montanists and sent them away which is enough to conuince that he erred though hee after relented from his former enterprise How Mercellinus Bishoppe of Rome sacrificed vnto Idols and denyed it when it was obiected to him and was after reproued by sufficient witnesse and condemned for it the Synod extant in your first booke of councels doth declare and Damasus writing the liues of his predecessours doth testifie the same Phi. Hee fell in persecution but he repented after and suffered for Christ as Peter did Theo. And therefore the Bishoppe of Rome may fall from the faith for so did Peter and Marcellinus but whether he shal be renewed by repentance as they were that is neither knowne to you nor beleeued of vs. Phi. We care not if they fall so they rise againe Theo. We proue they may fal Proue you they shall not choose but rise againe Phi. They haue all done so that yet are mentioned and so did Liberius whō I knowe you will name next although wee may worthily doubt whether euer hee fell or no. Theo. You and your fellowes make a doubt of it but I see no reason why you should For it is confirmed by many sounde and sufficient witnesses who both for the time when and place where they liued did and might best know the trueth of that matter Phi. Ruffinus doubteth of it Theodoretus denyeth it and Socrates inclineth rather to vs than otherwise Theo. Ruffinus sayth whether it were so or no pro certo compertum non habeo I know not for a certaintie Socrates maketh neither with it nor against it but passeth it ouer with silence And so doth Theodorete onely hee sayth the Emperour at the supplication of the Gentlewomen of Rome Flecti se passus iussit optimum quidem Liberium de exilio reuocari Suffering him self to be intreated commaunded the good bishop Liberius to bee called from banishment But this excludeth not his subscription before hee receiued his place which Sozomene writeth The Emperour at the intercession of the West Bishoppes recalleth Liberius from Beroea whither hee was banished and assembling the Bishoppes that were in his tents compelleth him to confesse the sonne of God not to bee of the same substance with his father Basilius Eustathius and Eleusius induced Liberius to consent by this meanes that some vnder the colour of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did labour secretly to confirme heresie When this was done the Emperour gaue him leaue to go to his Bishopricke Phi. Will you beleeue Sozomene before the rest that report no such thing Theo. Their silence doth not preiudice his Storie And yet Sozomene is not the first author of this report Athanasius who liued in the same age with Liberius and for whose cause Liberius was banished therefore woulde say no more than truth by him witnesseth no lesse Liberius post exactum in exilio biennium inflexus est minisque mortis ad subscriptionem inductus est Liberius after two yeres spent in banishment inclined by feare of death was induced to subscribe Damasus that was Bishoppe of Rome next after Liberius and therfore could not be ignorant of the trueth and woulde not belie his owne See saith of him Ingressus Liberius in vrbem Roman◠4. nonas Augusti consensit Constantio haeretico Non tamen rebaptizatus est sed consensum praebuit Liberius entering the citie of Rome the 4. of the nones of August consented to Constantius the heretike He was not rebaptized but hee gaue his consent Hierom brought vp at Rome in the time of Liberius and after so neere Damasus that hee was his right hand in answering all Synodal consultations and in that respect had often and easie accesse to the Recordes and monuments of the Church of Rome writeth of Fortunatianus Bishoppe of Aquileia In hoc habetur detestabilis quod Liberium Romanae vrbis Episcopum pro fide ad exilium pergentē primus solicitauit ac fregit ad subscriptionem hareseos compulit In this he is coūted detestable that he first attempted Liberius the Bishoppe of Rome going into banishment for the fayth and preuayled with him and gate him to subscribe to the Arrian heresie In his addition to Eusebius Chronicle hee saith as much Liberius taedi◠victus exilij in haereticam prauitatem subscribens Romā quasi victor intrauerat Liberius wearied with his banishment and subscribing to hereticall prauitie had entered Rome as a conquerour We aske not what authoritie you haue to counteruaile these wee knowe you haue none but what reason haue you to resist these Phi. The rest agree not with them Theo. Omission in one writer is no good argument against an other foure affirme it and euery one of thē elder and likelier to come by the trueth than Theodorete yet Theodorete doth not gainsay but only ouerskip the fact If therefore to claw the Bishoppe of Rome you refuse the consent of Athanasius Hierom Damasus and Sozomene you doe but discouer your follie to the wiser sort and hazard your credite with the simple If you receiue their testimonie touching this fact then is there no doubt but the Bishop of Rome subscribed vnto Arianisme and whether hee repented or no wee may worthily doubt since your owne Stories auouch the contrarie Phi. Which of our Stories Theo. Martinus Polonus Vincentius and others Martinus saith Constantius recalled Liberius from banishment because he had agreed to him and to the Arians and placed him againe in his Seate and so vnhappie Liberius held the Church of Peter sixe yeeres by violence then was the persecution great in the citie in so much that the Clergie men which were against Liberius were Martyred then also Eusebius a Priest suffered death for declaring Liberius to be an heretike And Damasus when he came to the Bishoppe of Rome next after Liberius with open voyce condemned Liberius and all his acts Phi. I beleeue neither Vincentius nor Martinus in this case Theo. Your not beleeuing them sheweth your selfe to be partial not their report to be false Phi. Liberius surely continued not an Arrian Theo. That he subscribed to the Arrians we proue that he recanted his subscription you can not proue Phi. No doubt he did it though it bee not written Theo. So you presume though you want all proofe for it Phi. Neuer Bishoppe of Rome died an heretike Theo. What did Honorius whom the sixt generall Councell condemned and accursed after his death for heresie Phi. That Councel is shamefully corrupted by the Grecians Theo. If the Grecians copies did differ from yours you had some reason to charge thē with corruption but since your copies confesse the same howe could the Grecians inuade your libraries without your knowledge and raze