wil not passe by without speaking whosoeuer he bee Tell me Gentleman are you a brother to the Archdeacon of Viso Arch. What Segnior Lattantio haue you so soone forgotten mee it appeares Fortune quickly chaungeth mens knowledge Latt What say you now I see you are the Archdeacon himselfe indeede Arch. Yea sir to do you seruice Latt Who could know you comming as now you do you were woont to weare your garmentes one longer then another trailing on the ground your cappe after the Ecclesiasticall maner your seruants and reuerend Mule but now I see you on foot alone a short cote with a thred bare Frisado cape a great sword and a Souldiers hat besides all this a long beard and your haire and head without any signe of Crowne who could haue knowen you Arch. Who sir Euen he that knowes the habit by the man and not the man by the habit Latt Well if the memorie haue erred it is no reason good-will should paie for that fault which in me hath verie seldom diminished But tell mee as God helpe you sir how comes this chaunge Arch. What haue you not heard what hath happened at Rome lately Latt Yes I haue heard some thing but what concernes the busines of Rome the chaunge of your garmentes Arch. Seeing you aske that question it appeares you know not al for then you should haue knowen that ther is not in Rome a man that dare passe the streets in habit of an Ecclesiastical person Latt What tell you mee Arch. I tell you that when I came from Rome the persequution against the Clergie was so great that there was not a man that durst walke the streetes in habit of a Clarke or a Frier Latt O merueilous God how incomprehensible are thy Iudgements But sir I pray you were you within Rome at that time when the Emperours armie entred Arch. Yea for my sinnes I was found or rather lost there for of all that euer I had I haue nothing left but that you see Latt Wherfore did you not commit your selfe to the Spanish souldiours and thereby haue saued your goods Arch. My sinnes daunted my wittes and my vnhappie lot was to fall among the Almans where I thought it no little gaine to escape with life out of their handes Latt Is all true wee heare from thence and that men report here Arch. I know not what you heare nor what you say of it but I can assure you it was the most terrible thing that euer man saw I know not how you take it here it seemes to mee you make no great accompt of it But on my soule I know not whether God will so dissemble it and if wee were in some other place where it were lawfull for me to speake I would vtter foule and terrible matters with this mouth Latt Against whom Arch. Against him that hath done more mischiefe against the Church of God then euer Turke or Pagan durst haue done Latt But soft sir Archdeacon it may be that you are deceaued and lay the fault wher it is not between vs any thing may passe tell me therefore franckly your minde and I will so endeuour to open vnto you your error that you shall not blame him that is not blame worthie Arch. I am content to open plainly vnto you my mind in this matter but not here in the Market place let vs goe into this Church of S. Frauncis and there we wil discourse at our leisure Latt Agreed let it be so Arch. Now that we are where we may talke and none heare vs I pray you sir whatsoeuer passeth betweene vs let no other man be priuie of it for Princes are Princes and no wisedome for men to put themselues in perill where they neede not Latt Hereof you may be well assured Arch. Let vs then see Signior Lattantio doth it seeme vnto you a matter tollerable that the Emperour hath done in Rome that which neuer Infidels had done and that for his perticuler passion and to reuenge himselfe of I wat not what hath in such sort sought to distroy the Sea Apostolique with the greatest Ignominie and with greater Contempt and greater crueltie than euer was heard or seene I know that the Gothes tooke Rome but yet they medled not with the Church of S. Peeter they medled not with the Reliques of the Sainctes they medled not with the sacred and holie thinges But whereas those halfe Christians had this respect now our Christians albeit I know not whether they bee worthie of that name they haue not forborne Churches they haue not forborne Monasteries they haue not forborne the sacred thinges they haue violated all they haue robbed all they haue profaned all that I wonder the earth hath not opened and swallowed them vp those also that sent them or consented vnto it What thinke yee now will the Turkes the Moores the Iewes and the Lutherans say seeing the head of the Church thus handled O God that suffrest such a thing Oh God that consentest to so great a wickednes Was this the defence that the Apostolike Sea hoped from hir defendor was this the honor that Spaine hoped for of hir so mightie king was this the glorie was this the good was this the Amplification and enlargement that all Christendome hoped was it for this that his great Graundfathers got the title of Catholicke For this cause did they ioyne so many Kingdomes and Seignories vnto the rule of one Lord for this was hee elected Emperour for this did the Bishop of Rome helpe him to thrust out the French out of Italie To the end that in one day he should destroy al that their predecessors with so great trauels and in such a multitude of years had founded So many and such goodly churches such Monasteries such Hospitals and Chappels where God was woont to bee serued and honoured to be now defaced and profaned So manie Altars yea euen in the Church of the Prince of the Apostles embrued with bloud so many Reliques robbed and with sacrilegious handes profaned For this cause did their predecessors adioine so great holinesse to this cittie For this did they honor the Church with such and so many reliques For this did they bestow on them so many ritch ornamentes of Gold and Siluer that in the end hee should come without remorse to rob deface and destroy al Oh Soueraigne God is it possible that so great a crueltie so great an outrage so abhominable boldnes so horrible an accident and so execrable a wickednesse can passe without some most rigorous most grieuous and most notorious punishment I know not what feeling you haue here of it or if you haue any I merueile how ye can let it passe or dissemble it Latt I heare attentiuely all that you haue said and in truth albeit I heare the like vttered of that matter by manie yet mee thinkes you make it more foule and blame it more then any other and in all that you haue spoken it seems to me you are very
the rest of the Christians shall they not as well bee the Church as they Arch. They say yes Latt Then the Seignorie and authoritie of the Church consisteth rather in men then in gouernment of Townes and therefore shall the Church be wel established when it shall haue many Christians and then dispoiled when it shall haue few Arch. That seemes to mee to be true Latt Now then he that is the cause of the destruction of any one Christian man dispoileth more the Church of Iesus Christ then he that taketh from the Pope his temporall dignities Arch. Let it be so Latt Then tel me now you what number of Christians haue perished since the Pope began this war to assure as you say his estate I omit the other mischiefs which wars draweth on with it Arch. Infinite Lat. Now you see that hee that hath bin the cause of this destruction hath more despoiled the church then he that should haue bereaued the Pope of his temporall dignitie But let vs see if anie man should haue caught from Iesus Christ his Cloake do you beleeue that he would haue taken Armes to haue defended it Arch. No surely Latt Why then would you haue the Pope to do it seeing you say hee was appointed to that ende that he should imitate Iesus Christ Arch. In this maner the Church should neuer keep any Signorie euerie one would pull a peece from it if they thought the Pope might not defend it Latt Whether it bee necessarie or profitable to the Church for the Popes to haue temporal seignories or not let them look to that but surely mee thinkes they might much better intende matters spirituall if they did not so much entangle themselues with temporall euen in that which you haue said you are much deceaued For if the Pope would bee content to imitate Iesus Christ and liue indeede as his Vickar hee should not onely not lose any part of his lands but rather much more should be giuen vnto him and let vs see how he holds any thing of that hee hath but by that meanes Arch. You say the trueth but now there is scarsely any charitie in the world Latt It is your selues with your euill liues that quench the fire of Charitie and in your selues it lieth to kindle and enflame it If you would Arch. You would haue vs enflame charitie by loosing all wee haue Latt And why not if it haue bene giuen you for Gods sake why should you not bee content for Gods sake to forgoe it It is most certaine that all true Christians should so do we hold possesse our goods temporal with this condicion that we should bee alwaies readie to leaue them whensoeuer we shal see it conuentent for the honor and glorie of Christ Iesus and for the common good of Christendome how much more then ought you of the Clergie to do the same yea and how much more in dutie then ought the Vickar of Iesus Christ to do it Arch. You are so holy as I neede not meddle with you suerly we haue no neede of such at Rome Latt Nether would I desire to liue among such wicked people Arch. You meane as there are now there Latt Neither yet as these that were there for in an infected flocke there is bad choise to be made Arch. What do you then account vs as bad as those Roysters Latt As bad Ney I would you were not much worse Arch. Wherefore Latt Because you are much more pernitious vnto the whole commonweale by your bad example Arch. And I pray you what be they Latt They make not profession to be the ministers of God as you doe neither haue they liuing for such as they haue neither is there any that will seeke or ought to seeke to immitate them as they should you But staie a while I haue not yet doone for hetherto haue I handled this matter calling the Pope Christs vicar now will I handle it making accoumpt or supposing the Pope is also a secular Prince as the Emperour to the end you may the more cleerely see the Error you were in And as concerning the first it is most certaine that the Pope receiued this dignitie by the fauour of the Emperour and hauing so gotten it behold what gratitude immediatlie he comforts himselfe with the King of Fraunce at his entrance into Italie and left the freendship of the Emperour Yea and some auerre that the Pope himselfe was the solisitor and causer of his entrance into Italie and notwithstanding all this the Emperour hauing the victorie against the French King was not onely content not to take from the Pope his territories of Parma and Placentia as both in Iustice and Reason he mought then haue doone but ratified the league that his Embassadour made with him yet the Pope notwithstanding not contented with this began to frame a newe league in Italie against the Emperour after the Frenche King was Prisoner But that secret practise was discouered and so tooke no effect And yet could not all this so alienate the Emperours minde but that hee sought by all honest and reasonable meanes to content the Pope and to procure him to be a meane in that peace which was intreatie betweene him and the King of Fraunce and that he should not hinder it but he was neuer able to attaine it Yet in the meane time was this peace concluded with Fraunce but so soone as the King was set at libertie the Pope began to procure a new league with him against the Emperour hauing receiued no occasion in the world at his hands so to doe and all this euen at that time when the Turkes with a puisant Armie began to enter by the kingdome of Hungary doe you thinke that this was a good parte The enemies were come to our gates and we brew warres within the house He requires the Emperour that he should not prepare any forces to resist the Turke and yet himselfe secretly prepareth to make warre vpon the Emperor Do you thinke that these were works of a Christian Prince Arch. But let vs see on the other side why the Emperour did not iustice to the Duke of Millan for if he had comitted no fault was it not good reason he should restore his state to him againe Latt Yes surely and therefore sir behold the Emperor placed Frauncis Sforsa in the state of Millan whereas he might haue tane it to himselfe seeing he hath much more right therevnto then that Duke and that onely for the peace and ease of Italy and all Christendome he was content to bestowe it on such a man at whose hands he neuer had receiued any seruice And afterward the Emperour vnderstood by his Captaines that the same Duke had conference and had taken parte in that league which the Potentates of Italie had made against him And seeing therein he had committed treason it was good reason that as a rebell disgraded he should be depriued of his state Arch. And how will you depriue a man
the Legars do you not thinke that if he mought haue been at his owne choise he would not haue beene rather in the Armye of the Legars then where he now is Latt I cannot deny vnto you but it is very likely but what can you tell if afterwards he changed his minde Arch. Now certeinly I cannot tell but I beleeue it not neither doe I thinke it well that the head of the Church should be handled in this manner Latt Let vs see then is not a man that may auoyde mischiefe bound to doe it Arch. Who doubts that Latt Should not hee bee blame worthie that should giue another cause to doe ill Arch. He should be in the same fault for Qui causam damni dat damnum dedisse videtur Latt You say verie well then behold the Pope either is there with his will or against his will if with his will then is all well that you complaine of but if against his will then tell me wherfore would hee bee with the Armie of the Leagers Arch. Why that 's plaine to reuenge himselfe of the insolency and hurtes he had receaued Latt Let vs then see what would haue falne out Arch. What could haue ensued but much discord wars murders and damage through Christendome Latt Then to auoid these so apparant mischiefs do you not thinke it better that hee should bee in the power of the Emperor then elswhere albeit hee should bee there against his will according to that we talked of before touching the Sunne that kept his Father tied and if the Emperour would haue let him goe where himselfe liste should not the euilles haue beene iustlye imputed to the Emperor that would haue ensued seeing hee gaue the cause thereof Arch. I confesse this too but what will all both great small say but that the Emperour holdes the Pope and Cardinals prisoners Latt This will ignorant persons say whose iudgement it is impossible to satisfie whereas the wise and prudent knowing it to bee for the good of Christendome that the Pope should remaine in the power of the Emperour will hold it and account it verie wel done and wil highly praise the vertue and wisedome of his Maiestie yea euen all Christendome may thinke themselues perpetuallie bounden for it Arch. As for mee I could bee well content that he should bee wheresoeuer yee would haue him so as they would giue me the possession of my benefices but I cannot tell whether you consider how they stand excommunicate Latt And why so Arch. Because they haue apprehended and hold against his will the chiefe Pastor of the Church Latt Behold sir hee standes excommunicate that with a wicked meaning wil not obey the Church But hee that for the common weale of all Christendome deteineth the people and wil not let him lose onely to auoid the euils which would follow vppon his deliuery Beleeue mee hee doth not onely stand not excommunicate but also meriteth much at Gods handes for it Archd. Surely this is a thing verie likely and reasonable but I know not whether our Cannonists would graunt you this Latt That Cannonist that will not graunt this shall shew himselfe void of iudgement Arch. I beleeue so too but at one thing I was verie greatly displeased that the Pope should presently giue pardon to all the Soldiers of all whatsoeuer they had done Latt And why are you agreeued at that Arch. Because they remaine all ritch and pardoned and wee bewailing our losses and sorrowes Latt Do you thinke that pardon of valiew as much did hee to the Collonesi hee pardoned them first but after destroied them A gentle kind of pardon Archd. I cannot tell what I may beleeue but that their soules were absolued and their purses damned Latt Why then did you not stand against it Arch. Yes euen there about wee went to leaue our Skinne with our goods thinges stood then in these tearmes that you would pardon all past for that that was to come if you had seene the Pope as I saw him Latt Where Arch. In the Castle Latt And why went you thether Arch. Ther were certaine benefices falne in my Countrey by the death of an neighbour of mine and I went to demaund them Latt An extraordinarie boldnesse was this surely Were you not ashamed in such a time to importune him with sutes Arch. No surelie for a shamefast man the Deuill will soone chase out of the Pallace and manie more were there to begge them aswell as I and sure I had as leeue preuent as bee preuented Latt Well I tell you againe that most terrible is the Auarice of the Clergie Arch. A wonderous matter I promise you and wherefore do you suppose do wee of the Clergie come to Rome Latt I thought it had beene for deuotion Arch. Yes iwis nowe surelye I was neuer in my life lesse deuoute Latt Nor yet lesse a Christian Arch. Well Sir euen as it please you so let it be Latt On my word if I had beene Pope you should not haue benefices onely for early rising seeing that after so notable a persequution you had not left your couetousnesse Arch. Yea euen for this is God very good that he would not giue vs you but Clement the 7. who gaue it me presently with a very good will although I went in the habit of a Souldier as you see me Latt Nowe I promise you this was euen an immesurable clemencie but tell me how found you him Arch. I found both him and all the rest of the Cardinals and others about him so sad and sorrowfull that euen in beholding of them the teares burst out of mine eyes He that had seene him goe in his triumphe with so many Cardinals Bishops protonotaries a foote and himselfe caried in a seat borne by men bestowing vpon vs all his holy blessings that he seemed euen a thing diuine and now to see him solitarye sad afflicted comfortlesse committed to a Castle and that aboue all is in the power and handes of his ennemies and besides all this to see the Bishops and other persons Ecclesiasticall that came to visite him to be all in Souldiers apparell and that euen in Rome the head of the Church should not haue a man that durst go in the habit of an ecclesiasticall person I know not what hart can bee so indurate that hearing these things should not bee persed with compassion Latt Immeasurable God how profound are thy iudgements with how great clemencye dost thou suffer vs with howe great goodnes dost thou call vs with how great patience dost thou tarrie vs whilst that we with the continuation of our sinnes do prouoke against our selues euen the rigor of thy Iustice and consequentlie both in the one and in the other dost shewe vs thy mercie infinit goodnes for all o Lord we yeeld thee infinit thanks knowing that thou dost it not but for our great good for he that had seen the maiesty of that Roman court such and so great Cardinals Bishops such
conuert you and therfore permitted those Souldiers that sacked Rome with Don Hugo and also that the Collonesi should make that assault whereof your selfe now complaine for seeing that all were now become shamelesse and the behauiour and course of life they all held he sought to make them doe that for feare of loosing their liues which for feare of destroying their soules they would not do And God seeing that there was no other way left to deliuer his Children from perdition he hath done with you euen as your selfe said you would haue done with the Scholemaister of the Children which should infect them with his vices and would not amend Arch. It may bee as you say but what had the image committed what offences had the Reliques done or the dignities or the honest and good people which were also robbed and ill intreated Latt I pray you report me the matter euen as it passed seeing you were there present and I will tell you the cause as I thinke why God permitted euerie of those thinges that yee shall trulie recompt vnto me Arch. Great reason yee haue surely in all this that you haue said I shal with a verie good will do that you haue required and heare whatsoeuer you wil say with a much better You are therefore to know that the Emperours Armie hauing left their Artillerie at Sena which was but a small quantitie with the greatest speed that euer was heard of marched euen to Rome and arriued there the fifth of May. Latt But what was the reason the Pope sent not to require some communication Arch. Nay the good Duke of Burbone sent to desire of the Pope that he would send some person with whom he might treat vpon his entrance into Rome But the Pope relying vppon his new league that he had made and the Armie of the leaguers hauing promised to come to his succors hee would not enter into any manner of communication And when the Armie knew this the very next day in the morning they resolued to assault the Citie And such was our ill fortune that euen at the beginning and within the Towne one with an Harquebuze happened to kill the good Duke of Burbone whose death was the cause of much ill Latt Surely it euen breakes my hart to heare of so vnhappy a death Arch. Our sinnes was the cause for if he had liued there had not bin so much mischiefe done Latt Now would to God you had not had those faultes but who euer heard that the sinnes of a Citie should cause their destruction that came to assaile them Arch. In this matter it may bee well said for the Duke of Burbone came not to conquere vs but to defende vs from his owne armie hee came not to sacke vs but to keepe vs that wee should not be sacked It is wee that had most cause to lament his death for himselfe there is no man but rather doth enuy him then pitie him for he lost his life with the greatest honor that euer did man by his death atteined that which a number of great Captains were neuer able to atteine so that the verie memorie of him wil be alwaies most honorable onely one thing greeueth me that is the peril of his soule dying excommunicate Latt And why excommunicate Arch. Because hee entred with an armed hand into the territories of the Church and sought to assaile the holy citie of Rome Latt Do you know what one decree saith to wit that manie are excommunicate by the Pope that are not excommunicate by God neither doth the Pope entend that he should be excommunicat that remaineth within the terrritories of the Church with intention to defend them and in al that he can to prouide that they should not receaue any damage as this Prince did Arch. Yee say truth neuerthelesse his first motion was voluntarie Latt Of this your selfe before verie wel declared the cause for hee was bound to defend the kingdome of Naples beeing by the Emperor made his lieftenant generall for all Italie neither went he to possesse the landes of the Church but to prohibite the Pope that he should not possesse the landes territories of the Emperour and to bring him to some vnitie and concord with his Maiestie Arch. Well let that be so but to returne to our purpose The Emperors armie was so desirous to enter Rome some to robbe and spoile others for the extreame hatred they bare to that court of Rome and some both for the one and the other cause that the Spaniards and Italians on the one side by scale And the Almanes on the other side by Pickaxes breaking downe the wall entred by the Burge on which side stands as you know the Church of Saint Peeter and the holy Pallace Latt Yea and a great manie of verie good houses of Cardinals Of one thing I verie much maruell that they within hauing Artillerie and those without hauing none how it was possible for them so easily to enter without the slaughter of an hundred onely of themselues But of you how many were slaine Arch. Sir you know how vncerteine reportes are alwaies in such like matters Some say Sixe thousand men but in truth there died not vpon the entrie aboue four thousand for imediatly they retired themselues into the Cittie and I tell you truth I should haue deemed this a verie great miracle if afterwarde I had not seene the same souldiers haue done that they did wherby I cannot beleeue that God would do so great a miracle for them Latt You are much deceaued for God did not this miracle for them but to punish and correct you Arch. Therein I beleeue you say the verie truth Latt I woonder after their Generall was slaine that they were not dismaied as commonly men are and so did not leaue the fight Arch. So was it surely but the death of this Generall inflamed them more and encreased their desire to enter the citie with greater furie then before Latt Yee tell mee woonders Arch. Surely so it was and this good duke of Burbone was so beleeued of all that euerie man desired himselfe to die or to reuenge the death of him Latt And therefore it was he me thinks that was cause of all that crueltie Arch. It is most likely to be so Lat. Oh mighty God how meruelous art thou in al thy works in each perticular how wonderfully discouerest thou thy power thou determinest that this good Duke should bee killed to the end that with the more rigor thy iustice should bee executed but let vs see where was the Pope all this while Arch. Euen in his owne Pallace and so carlesse that it was a woonder hee was not taken but seeing in how bad tearmes matters stood hee retired himselfe to the Castle of Saint Angelo with 13. Cardinals and other Bishops and principall persons which staied with him And presently the Ennemies entred and spoiled and sacked all that was in the Pallace and the like did they in
Church of stones wee should leaue to honor the Church of God which is our soule I would not that to build an altar we should forbeare to succour a poore bodie or to repaire tables or dead images we should leaue the poore naked which be the liuely images of Iesus Christ neither would I that we should lay so great a foundation on those things which we are not in any dutye bound to doe neither yet that we should giue men to vnderstand that the Lord is serued and pleased with the possession of these things that euery wiseman contemneth and holdeth a praise in himselfe not to esteeme Tell me whye did Iesus Christ contemne all the ritches and wealth of this world Arch. Because we should likewise by his example valew it as nothing Latt Why then do we seeke to present vnto him these things as matters very pretious and gratefull seeing himselfe we know contemned them and would also that we should contemne them and not rather take care to present our mindes and soules pure and cleere from all vices and sinnes this being the most pretious and acceptable offering that we can present Arch. I muse who should teach you so many arguments being yet so young Latt Then behold sir it hath pleased God therefore to suffer these churches to be thus robbed that we might euidently know that he esteemeth as nothing all such things as may be robbed neither yet dooth he esteeme any thing corruptible to the end that heereafter we may rather present vnto him liuing then dead temples And that we should offer vp vnto him hartes and wils before gold and siluer and that we serue him with such things as he commaundeth rather then with such vanitie Arch. Yea tell mee a thing that I neuer heard of but seeing it is so tell mee howe and wherewith wee ought to serue him Latt This is an other matter a part whereof we may conferre an other tune more at our good leisure but nowe I praye you proceed on Arch. Euen as you will but what will you saye that the very temples where God was woont to be serued and honoured were become stables for Horsses what a thing was it to see the verye Church of Saint Peter both on the one side and the other all full of Horses euen to thinke of it it breakes my harte Latt Certainelye it was a thing that no good man could like of and yet many times we see that necessitie causeth things that by the lawe is prohibited and in time of warre these and farre woorse matters are commonly doone whereof they are in fault that are the cause of the warre Arch. This is a gentle excuse Latt And why not and doe you not also thinke that hee that draweth a greater and woorse filthinesse then that into a place more holy then that dooth hee not commit a greater abhomination Arch. This is cleere Latt Then tell mee if you haue read the holy Scripture haue yee not founde in it that God dwelleth not in Temples builded with the handes of men and that euery man is that temple wherein God dwelleth Arch. Yes sometimes Latt Then tell me which should be the greater ill and abhomination to make a stable of those Temples of stone where the Apostle saith God dwelleth not or to make it of our soules which are the true temples of God Arch. This is cleere that of our soules were the woorse but how can that be Latt Demaunde you howe whye what call you a Stable Arch. A place where Beasts rest Latt But what call you Beasts Arch. Brute Beasts without reason Latt And are not vices brute and voide of reason Arch. Yes without doubt and much woorse then brute beasts Latt Thus is it manifest that it is farre greater abhomination to bring vices that are much woorse then brute Beasts into the Soule which is the true Temple where God dwelleth then to bring horses into a Church of stone Arch. Surely I thinke that true Latt Heereby may you now knowe how blinde your vnderstanding was in Rome that meeting daily by the streetes men that manifestly had their soules the stables of vices of that you made no accoumpt and because you sawe in case of necessitie horsses in the Church of Saint Peter you thought it an horrible abhomination and broke your hart to thinke on it And yet your harte was neuer broken to see such multitude of Soules full of such filthie and abhominable sinnes and God by whome they were made and redeemed banished out of them surely your religion is a gentle religion Arch. You haue great reason but yet consider I praye you that which Saint Paule spake that God dwelleth not in Temples made with handes of men was to be vnderstanded of that time wherein he spake it for since and now in our Temples the Sacrament abideth Latt You say truth but haue not you confessed vnto me that vices are woorse then beasts Arch. Yea and so I say still Latt Why then he that bringeth into the Church a heard of vices that are worse then Beasts is hee not worse then he that bringeth into the church a troope of Horsses Arch. It seemes so to me but these beasts are inuisible Latt What will you say that God cannot see mens vices Arch. Yes God can see them but men cannot but these horsses we may all see Latt By this reason ye would make it a lesse abhomination to offend God then men and then yee would excuse the offence committed in appearing before God so burdened with wickednesse because men see it not you aggrauate greatly the putting of Horses into the Church in that time of necessitie because they are visible vnto men But marke sir I pray you God is not offended with the bad sauors wherewith men are offended The Soule wherein vices are rooted that is it wherewith God is offended and therefore hee requireth that this soule bee most cleere of vices and sinnes and many times he hath so commaunded vs. And therefore yee take all things the wrong way ye take great care to keepe neate and cleane the materiall Temples and the true Temple of God which is your soules you keepe it so full of vices and abhominable sinnes that they neither see God nor know what thing he is Arch. Now as God saue me you haue the greatest reason in the world but if you had seene the Souldiers how they carried along the streetes the poore Nunnes taken out of their monasteries and other Virgins taken out of their Fathers houses you would haue had the greatest compassion in the world Latt This is a matter so common among Souldiers and men of warre that albeit in mine opinion it be indeed much more greeuous then all the rest ioyned together we make scarslie any accoumpt of it as if it were not worse to defile a Virgin which is the liuing temple where Iesus Christ dwelleth then a church of stone or wood wherefore the fault heereof must not onely bee laid to
the charge of those Souldiers but much more vnto you who began and raised this warre and were the cause that they haue done that they did verelye if the warre were cause of no other ill then this euen for this alone you ought to leaue it Arch. The Registers and Records of the Apostolike Chamber of the Buls and supplications and those of the Notaries and processe are all destroied and defaced Lattan Those I thinke surely God did permit that together with vice wee should giue ouer all sutes and pleas for matters Ecclesiasticall For seeing these benefices are exequuted by Clarks and the first chiefe charter of a Clarke should be charity how doth he hold charity that goeth to sute with his neighbor Arch. And why not Latt Because that charitie is of that nature that if it met with any of these suites it would rather loose the benefice then stand in controuersie with his neighbor Arch. This were verie perfection Lattan And so should all the Clergie bee men of such perfection Arch. All men cannot attaine to this perfection but I pray you whereupon should so manie Auditors Proctors Aduocats registers and other officers feed if there were no sutes pleas Lat. Let them be Tailors Waterbearers and Cowkeepers and not defrawd vs vtterly of all Christian charitie Arch. And this is a gentle charitie of yours that so honorable persons should take so base occupations but I pray you what should we do with the sutes alreadie commenced Latt Let the benefice be bestowed on the most worthy of them that are in sute for it or taken from them both and giuen to a more worthie and that could deserue it better Arch. By this meanes we should haue no Iustice Latt Yes much more Iustice for benefices should be bestowed on such persons as should do that they were ordeined for Arch. And now do they not their duties Latt No surely for these benefices are the goods of the poore and while you wast them in brables among Proctors and Doctors the poore die for want Arch. Ye haue manie indeed that spend their liuings that way and some much woorse as your selfe I know can be a good witnes But whom would you haue to be the Iudge of the sufficiency or insufficiency of Clarkes to giue or take from them their benefices Latt Euerie Bishop in his owne Dioces so as they would better examine and know the persons Arch. Well but yee haue many Bishops that haue not learning ynough nor knowledge to do this Latt And therein is there another sinne committed for such should not be admitted to be Bishops but other persons therto deputed that were able Arch. Will yee haue me tell you the truth euen that way too all would goe by fauour Latt Thinke not so there are a number of wise Bishops and men of good conscience and others would follow their example And in trueth I thinke this would bee the best remedie till there be some other more perfect reformation in the Church Arch. And for pleas that are vppon seculer matters what would you haue done Latt If I were a Prince I would either deuide it betweene them or giue it all to the woorthiest and honestest Arch. Do you not see that hereby you would peruert and ouerthrow all Iustice Lattan Will you haue me tell you my minde plainely God created all thinges for the vse and seruice of man but the administration thereof rather to one man then an other because they should bestow them where most neede was and it is good reason that such as haue impart with such as want And it is good Iustice that hee haue the administration of most that best knowes how to vse them and contrarie manifest iniustice Arch. By this meanes you would goe about to make a new world Latt No but I would establish the good and remooue the quite out of it Arch. So long might I liue till you had gone through with such an enterprise Latt God sende the Emperour Charles life and then shall you see whether he will goe through withal Arch. But tarrie for yet haue yee not heard all Neuer since the Emperours Armie entred Rome till the time that I departed which was the twelfth of Iune there was not a Masse said in Rome nor all that time heard we a bell Ring nor a Clocke Latt The bad became little better by hearing of Masse when they did it without deuotion or reuerence and the good would doo that in Spirite which they coulde not doo with their Body but how chaunceth the Priestes and Friers would saie no Masse Arch. By God and that is a gentle question Did not I tell you at the beginning there was not a Priest or Frier in Rome that durst shew himselfe in other garmentes then such of a Soldiers as I were Latt And why so Arch. Because the Almanes so soone as they saw a Frier or a Priest in the steetes they would giue the woord and crie out a Pope a Pope kill kill Latt As God shall helpe me I do now remember that when I was in Rome there were manie Prophesies that foretold of this persequution of the Clergy and that it should be euen in this Emperours time Arch. That is indeed most true Latt And why then would you not amend Arch. Why who would then haue beleeued that it should haue prooued true Latt That would any man that had well considered the state of all thinges at Rome Archd. But besides all this there was such an extreame stinke in all the Churches that no man could endure to tarrie in them Latt A stinke and whereof Arch. The Souldiers had opened many Sepultures hoping to haue found treasure in them but after they were opened they found nothing but the dead Carkasses Latt Was it not much that you suffered of that perfume in telling of the money that yee exacted for burying of the dead Arch. Now you are disposed to iest Latt No in good faith but I tell you truth that seeing you of the Clergie were not ashamed to take tribute of the dead a thing that euen among the Gentils was held most foule as litle should you haue lothed to haue entred to haue praied to God for them Arch. Well you thought yee had done but there remaineth yet woorse matter for you to resolue for I haue kept the woorst and most grieuous for the last Latt Well tell it me Arch. They left no Reliques vnsackt and spared not to take the Gold and Siluer with their sacrilegious handes wherewith those Reliques were couered that it was the most horrible abhomination in the world to see these Raskals to enter those places whereunto Bishops yea Cardinals yea the Popes themselues scarsly durst enter And to take those heads and armes of the Apostles and of the happie saintes I cannot imagin what good could grow vnto Christendome by such an abhominable boldnes and contempt Latt Surely it was in deede a foule action but I pray you tell me after