And so doeth Tertullian de resurrectione carnis Cap. 3. saying Auferantur ab haereticis quae cum aethnicis sapiunt vt de scripturis solis suas quaestiones fistant stare non possunt that is let those things be taken from heretiques which they holde with the heathen that onely by the scriptures they may determine their questions and they cannot stand And nothing was more vsuall and familier with Augustine against the heretiques of his time then to call them for the triall of the question both whither he or they were of the true Church also whither of them had the trueth to this way of triall by the scriptures And therefore de vnitate ecclesiae Nolo humanis documentis sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrare I will not make demonstration of the Church by the writings of men but by the diuine oracles saieth he Cap 3. again there also he further addeth pressing the heretiques with whom hee had there to doe sunt libri dominici quoruÌ„ authoritati vtrique consentimus ibi quaeramus ecclesiam ibi discutiamus causaÌ„ nostraÌ„ that is there are certaine bookes of the Lord vnto the authority whereof we both consent there let vs seeke the Church there let vs discusse our cause To the like effect he writeth in the 2 Chapter of that booke and elswhere very often Vnles therfore they wil once bee contented to come to this trial of the controuersies betwixt theÌ„ vs we must needs tel theÌ„ that they are not desirous in earnest euer to haue it appeare which of vs haue the better cause but as men who know in their owne coÌ„science that their cause is bad they labour to maintaine the credit thereof as long as they can by cunning shifts delaies But yet let them assure themselues as long as they shun this trial how cuÌ„ningly colourably soeuer though simple fooles already besotted with superstition bewitched with popish enchantments vpon their bare worde stought bragges that it is nothing but the ancient catholicke faith that they teach may sometimes beleeue theÌ„ that yet withal those that haue any wisdoÌ„ at al by this means they leese quite both the credit of theÌ„selues their cause For faith being as it is not a wauering vncertaine conceyt opinioÌ„ of the thing beleeued but a most certain sure infallible perswasion of the trueth thereof how can any be assured that the doctrine that he beleeues is such as he may soundly firmely rest vpon for vndoubted trueth without euident grouÌ„d thereof out of the writeÌ„ word of the Lord in the canonical scriptures For theÌ„ce onely Peter dare warraÌ„t the sincere milke which caÌ„not deceiue the childreÌ„ of god to be fetched 1. Pet. 2 2. therefore that he would haue theÌ„ to desire as new borne babes doe milk that they may grow vp therby And as for the writings traditioÌ„s of meÌ„ beside hath not doth not experieÌ„ce daily teach that they may not nor caÌ„not chalenge the preeminence prerogatiue alwaies to be free from errour And euery one that is a ChristiaÌ„ hath learned that this prerogatiue al the writers of the canonical scripture had in the writing thereof therein not to haue erred at al. Who therfore caÌ„ be so simple vnles the Lord in his iustice hath blinded him because hee would not see the trueth shyning about him that he should receiue that for the sound catholicke faith that he heares not first froÌ„ point to point proued vnto him so to bee out of this vndoubted certaine word of God the canonical scriptures what shew or colour of proofe soeuer otherwise be made thereof And this Iohn de Albine could not but conceiue yet neuer once going about in this his discourse thus to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce his cause religioÌ„ but as one loth to be brought to this trial he laboureth most earnestly to discourage al meÌ„ froÌ„ appealing vnto it yet almost in euery leafe braggeth and boasteth that both his Church his doctrine and al are souÌ„d catholick Wherin howsoeuer he pleased himselfe in that his vaine any indiffereÌ„t maÌ„ may see he hath rather bewraied the weaknes of his owne cause theÌ„ any way whatsoeuer he haue saied otherwise impaired the credit of ours But how vainly hee hath swet euen to the tyring of himselfe his reader about this point in many chapters That by the scriptures controuersies are not in the church to be tried determined wheÌ„ I come vnto that place I shal god willing shew more fully In the meane time Iohn de Albine to turne my speech to you I hauing thus examined your answere to our demand how you come to your prelacies and offices and hauing found the weaknes and vntruethes thereof such as that your calling or coÌ„ming thereunto can claime no more credit thereby theÌ„ the calling coÌ„ming to their offices amongst the ArriaÌ„s Greekes whoÌ„ you count heretiques and scismatiques caÌ„ doe because they caÌ„ could say as much and that as truly for theirs as you haue here said for yours let vs now proceed to the examinatioÌ„ of the places of scripture in this Chapter quoted by you vrged as you thought stroÌ„gly to your purpose By the Mat. 5. Ye are the light of the world c. by christ spokeÌ„ properly to his Apostles you would seem to proue that therfore right successioÌ„ of Bishops pastors in the Apostolique truth in al ages in diuers partes of the world hath ben euer cleare shining like a light set on a table by that Eph. 4. Esa 62. with your book quoteth Sap. 61. very wisely you would infer that not oÌ„ly alwaies vntil Christs body coÌ„e to ful perfectioÌ„ there should be doctors pastors in the Church to teach the truth which is the most that by those places caÌ„ be proued but also that they and their coÌ„gregatioÌ„s haue euer ben known visible therby doubtles meaning so visible as the rest of your side doe wheÌ„ to this end they alleage these or the like places as that froÌ„ time to time in al ages meÌ„ may be able to naÌ„e theÌ„ and their places WheruÌ„to I answere that you stretch these places and the words therin further theÌ„ their natiue sence wil bear For the first of these is properly to be vnderstood of Christs Apostles onely who in respect of their ministery other graces of the spirit that should be powred bestowed vpoÌ„ theÌ„ to beutifie streÌ„gtheÌ„ their extraordinary ministery withall are there by Christ compâ—â—â—â—â— the light of the world to a lighted candle set vpon a candlesticke not put vnder a bushell lightning all in the house and to a city 〈◊〉 on a hil which could not bee bid all which afterward they in the â—â—ecution of their Apostleship and holy conuersation proued to be â—â—â—tles truely and iustly giuen them This was no prophesie as yoâ— would make it that their should be vntill the second comming 〈◊〉 Christ a visible and
and by Iohn Reuel 14. of the consumption of Antichrist and fall of Babylon shew onely that the Lorde would doe it by the spirit of his mouth in the preaching of the euerlasting Gospell That therefore is it onely that we are to approue our selues by to be the men that the Lorde will vse to that purpose And yet herein we take not vpon vs greater priuiledge then Christ For we accoūt that an especiall priuiledge of his that he was so to confirme his doctrine by miracles as that after the confirmation of it so by him his Apostles and the recording of it in the new Testament as it is it should thenceforth stand so firme that it should be an intollerable signe of incredulity amongst them especially that pretend they reuerence and receaue the scriptures as you would seeme to doe euer to require miracles more to confirme the same doctrine by You were not best therefore to perswade your selues in this sort the howsoeuer it be with your religion otherwise yet you shal be at the least without blame for your not receiuing of ours because we work no miracles Deceiue not your selues It is not with you now in respect of vs and our doctrine as it was then with the Iewes in respect of him and his Then that he was the particuler person of the Messias that therefore he being come the ceremonies of Moses law should cease and giue place to his sacraments c was a thing to be proued that by miracles because it was before prophecied whereas now those things long ago haue beene sufficiently confirmed and therefore we preaching vnto you no other doctrine but that so already confirmed and requiring no further to be credited then we can so proue our doctrine especially seeing the prophecies cōcerning these later daies shew rather y◠Antichrist and his Chaplaines shal come and seeke to preuaile by miracles then the Lords faithful pastours you haue no such reason as they had nor indeed any at all to require miracles at our hands But you say vnto vs as Augustine saied vnto the Manichees contra epist Fundam cap. 4. sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio with you there is no other sound but promise that you haue the truth Whereunto adde the words that immediatly follow and you are answered For he addeth which yet if you can make appeare is so cleare of your side that it may not be doubted of is to be preferred before all those things that otherwise holde me in the Catholique Church Be you of this minde once with Augustine and then learne this one other lesson of him do vnitate ecclesiae contra Petil. cap. 3. Nolo humanis documentis sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrari I will not haue demonstration made of the church by humane documents but by the diuine oracles And so say vnto vs as he saied there vnto Petilian let vs seeke the Church and so discusse our cause by the scriptures beholde they are common vnto vs both beholde there we haue knowen Christ beholde there we haue knowen the church c. Take this course once with vs and I doubt not whatsoeuer you brag to the contrary but we shall thereby be able to iustifie both our vocation and Religion and to make it appeare that we haue not onely a bragge of trueth with you and the Manichees but the very trueth it selfe And this being proued thē you must yeelde with Augustine that it is to be preferred before all other outward thinges whatsoeuer that haue kept you hitherto in an other Religion and church yea then you must confesse notwithstanding all your obiections otherwise against vs of nouelty paucity iars in opinion and whatsoeuer else yet it is your dueties to ioyne with vs in receauing of this trueth Wherefore vnlesse you will let all other bie matters go and enter once into this question with vs in earnest whether your Religion or ours be the trueth and for the triall thereof will stand to the scriptures interpreted according to the sound and alwaies vsed rules of interpreting them colour your refusing thus to doe with what colours possibly you can you too too grossely be wray the badnesse of your cause and euidently shewe that you onely seeke shifts hoales and corners to escape as long as you may the discredit therof And your owne frends will they nill they shal be inforced to see the same You conclude with prayer that we may drawe as neare you as we are farre from you and that we may turne to the flock of Christ the which both to your hurt and our owne you say we haue forsaken Insteede of Amen to yours I beseech the Lord of all mercies and father of our Lord Iesus Christ that it would please him of his infinit goodnes and mercy euen for his deare sonne Iesus sake to open the eies of your mindes and so to touch your hearts as that you may haue grace with vs to come out of Babylon and to leaue that garish whore of Rome with all her abhominations and so to ioyne with vs in the true communion of Saints and fellowship of the trueth and spirit that both you and we may dwell togither as brethren in one house agree and growe togither as members of one body rest togither as sheepe of one flocke vnder one father God almighty vnder one head shepheard Christ Iesus through the mighty working of the holy Ghost to Gods glory and our owne euerlasting comfort Amen FINIS A short answere to a new offer not published at the first when D. Fulke and Master Carter answered the 22. demands whereunto it is now annexed the ground and matter whereof is an enumeration of six certaine and assured signes and tokens as the offerer calleth them of Antichristians false prophets heretiques and schismatiques mentioned in diuerse places of the scripture COncerning these sixe signes welbeloued this is his offer that if by the learned protestāt they can be proued more aptly and truely to agree to him his fellowes of the commō knowen catholick church of Christ thē vnto the protestāts of so many sundry and diuers sects and congregations that then he wil submit yeelde recant and not before Learned protestant I take my selfe to be none howbeit finding as I did when I tooke first in hand to answer Iohn de Albines former discourse that the publisher thereof had therewithall published not only the offer of a proud papist to a learned protestant cōsisting of 22. challenges or demaunds long ago answered by the men aboue named but also with this new addition of these six signes and then not vnderstanding though it had beene thus abroad many years amōgst vs in English that any learned or vnlearned had vouchsafed to answer it though I thought it needles to answer againe the offer of 22. demaunds so wel answered by the foresaied mē before that the authour thereof neuer since had pleasure to reply I thought it yet
be trueths as fully and more fully then he or any of his side For proofe whereof cōsider that whereas the whole preface consists in the copie and edition that I had of his in print to aunswere of twenty two leaues hee spendes the first eight pages in prouing that Kinges Princes and rulers both ciuill and ecclesiasticall must carefullie administer iustice according to their callings and so bee as good shepherdes to them of whome they haue charge which who doubteth of or who euer denyed amongst vs yea we teaching as we do that Emperours Kings and Queenes in their kingdomes are carefully to looke to the keeping of both tables amongst their people and that they are next vnder God the supreme gouernours of their people aswel in causes ecclesiastical in commaunding for the good of the church and religion of Christ as in causes ciuill in commaunding for the common weale and the good estate thereof and they denying ciuil Magistrates any such authority in causes of the church doe not we far more fully then they teach them how and when they may be as good shepheards to their people Then by occasion of this former needlesse discourse hauing alleadged that Iohn 10. to proue that a good shepheard giueth his life for his sheepe and that Christ is that good sheepheard that knowes his sheepe and is knowen of them marke how in as many mo pages he inferreth that it is necessary that the sheepe know their shepheard that they heare his voice and geue no eare to the voice of a stranger and lastly that they follow and obey their shepheard which are things also truly taught and vnderstoode which we most gladly teach embrace and for lacke of which properties of Christes sheepe wee constantly hold aduouch that the Romish flocke these manie yeares hath rather beene a flocke of goates then of Christes true sheepe For if they knowe as they should that the name of the sheepheard Christ were the only name whereby commeth saluation Act. 4. and that in him all things are prepared already Math. 22. they would not set vp to themselues so many names of persons and thinges besides him nor hold that so many thinges besides those that are already prepared in him are left to thēselues and others to that ende to prepare as they doe And if they did so heare his voice and refuse to heare the voice of strangers as Christes sheepe ought there neither would nor could be so many strange doctrines yea contrary doctrines to the voice of Christ set downe in the Canonical scriptures receaued maintained amongst them as ear I haue done with Albine I shall shew there are Likewise such followers obeiers of the voice of Christ are they haue they beene for these 4. or 500. yeares speaking vnto them in his word writtē by the mouth of his true church aūcient sound pastours thereof as that none euer in a number of most weighty and materiall matters more directly contraried his voice then they Whither I haue iust ground and proofe for my thus saying I referre thee to that which I haue written in confutation of Albines discourse cap. 4.17.29 36. And yet such is the folly of this nameles preface wryter that hauing thus noted these to be the properties of Christs true sheepe as though by and by without any further proofe at all it ought of necessity to bee granted that he and his side had all these properties and that we of our side had neuer a one of them all but were notoriously branded with the contrary markes he triumpheth and insulteth ouer vs spending all the rest of his preface in railing vpon vs and in perswading his reader to forsake vs and to ioyne with him his So that all the rest of his preface is builded vppon a most shamefull and impudent begging of all these points that they know Christ aright heare his voice no other obey him and follow him most orderly and also of these that his begging of that former may seeme the more reasonable that their doctrine is sound hauing countenāce of al auncient holy fathers of the cōsent of al Christiā Regions prescription of time that their prelates are al prelates lawfully called hauing right succession euery thing that they should haue to credit them withal therefore that they are such as Christ hath commaunded to to be obeyed as himselfe and lastly that their church is the holie Catholike church the obedient spouse of Christ and mother of all the faithfull and that therefore it is damnation to depart frō her or to refuse to obey any of her lawes and ordinances that with vs all things are quite contrary All these things his reader must graunt him suppose to be true for he hath nothing at all to proue any one of these besides swelling words of vanity and lofty arrogant bragging that these things are so And therefore al these things being the things in question betwixt vs and such as we all most constantly and iustly haue alwaies denied as our writings of these points heretofore now this answere of mine in sundry places thereof make manifest to any indifferēt reader thereupon it must needes follow that whatsoeuer he hath alleadged either out of scripture or doctor to perswade his reader to obey their church their prelates their ordinances traditions is shamefully abused For compare the times when the persons whereof those things were written their doctrine and doings with these and you shall finde witnes the scriptures thēselues and all sound antiquity as much differēce betwixt their church prelates doctrine and ordinances and them of whom those places are to be truely vnderstoode as there is betwixt light and darkenesse the pure Church of Christ and the impure Synagogue of Antichrist And also all his exhortation vpon these grounds to ioine with them and all his bitter inuectiues against vs for refusing so to doe is as a building in the aire without all foundation And therefore is thus easilye pulde downe and laide vnderfoote as a thing more meete to bee trampled vpon as a thing of nothing then by any to bee at all regarded And yet as foule a fault as this is in him it is common to him with all wryters of his side and most notoriously with this Iohn de Albine before whose booke hee hath set this his preface It may bee seeing his author whom hee ment to publish and of whom he had such an opinion that hee accounted him a notable discourser against heresies to haue such a grace and dexterity in stuffing out his booke almost with nothing else but with this beggerly begging the maine questions alwaies that he thought his preface should not be suteable and fit to be set before such a learned discourse vnlesse it were garnished bewtified with the same popish grace And if this were his reason then which I am sure hee hath no better hee is to bee borne withall for what
that they come to them by the ordinary way by right succession of Bishops and pastours continuing in one Catholicke faith downe from Christ to this present time thus childishly begging in one piece of one short sentence these foure great points all which in this case are betwixt vs and them in question namely that their officers all of them come to their roomes by the ordinary way that they haue right succession right Bishops and pastours and sounde and Apostolicke doctrine And yet though he knew well enough that wee constantly deny all these yet to proue that they come lawfully to their offices hee onely nakedly and barely affirmeth them as though he presumed that he was and should be such a Pythagoras in the conceit of all his Readers that for him once to say it were enough and enough againe For by and by after that thus he had onely saied hauing vsed neither proofe nor colour of proofe to backe his saying hee slippeth into another matter not yet called in question Whither a visible knowen and alwaies a demonstrable personall and locall succession of Bishops pastours be necessary for the perpetuall continuāce of the Church and preseruatiō of the trueth therin And thus hee windeth frō matter to matter leauing alwaies that vnproued which hee had most neede to haue proued labouring sweating continually about the proofe of that which though it were graūted him yet he might wel enough loose his cause As for example hauing entred into the foresaid matter in maner before saied in 3. or 4. whole Chapters following he shewes how the trueth is continued in the Church by succession of pastours how profitable their ministry is to bring men to to settle them in the truth that the anciēt trodē way by Christs sheepe downe from Christ to this day that the ancient Catholicke faith that the faith which in Irenaeus and Augustines time was helde and taught at Rome had vnto their times beene continued from Christ by succession of Bishoppes and pastours is the waie and faith that a Catholicke man must liue and die in whosoeuer saieth to the contrary In which propositions no maruaile though he goe on roundly for he hath winde and weather with him none of vs gainesaies him yea these things being rightly vnderstoode wee constantly affirme and teach the same But these things being all graunted him what is hee nearer his cause seeing as yet all the sort of them neuer could nor shall bee able to proue that their pastours succeed Christ his Apostles or the ancient holy Bishops pastours that were before Irenaeus Avgustines time in teaching the same doctrine that they taught But herein is his popish subtlely that standing thus vpō these points he would haue his Reader graūt him all these that their successiō of Priests Bishops is that successiō of pastours so profitable for the continuāce of the trueth and Church that their Romish Religion that now is is that ancient way that Christs sheepe haue alwaies trod so the ancient Catholicke Religiō which in Irenaeus Augustines time they the holy pastours Bishops at Rome and else where had soundly succeeding one another from the Apostles continued in vnto that time which are things whereof not one the Pope and all his confederates shall euer be able indeede to proue and therefore it seemeth Iohn de Albine thought it good policy seeing these thinges could be got no otherwise to trie whether he could get them thus by flatte begging of them And it seemeth also that hee presumed that hee should come onely to such liberall mens dores that all these should be graūted and giuen him euen at the very first asking for alwaies after he behaues himselfe in such sort as that without all peraduenture he had them all graunted him Onely a little in his thirty seuēth Chapter belike somewhat growing ashamed of his shamelesse begging al the while before he begins to make shew that if men should be so hard harted as to deny him that their pastours doctrine and Church are sound Catholicke that he is able to proue them so to bee whither such will or no. And yet euen there when all comes to all though indeede hee bragge that he could and would but for being too tedious to his Reader iustify the rest of their doctrine by the testimony of a number of doctours holy confessours and martyrs he onely by mustering of a sort of dumbe doctours vpon the stage makes his poore Reader beleeue that in the places quoted by him they speake directly to iustify their ceremonies their Auricular Confession praier for the dead and to the dead as though these were the principall matters in controuersy betwixt them and vs. But doubtles hee knew well enough that no one of his Readers amongst an hundred would and could turne the places and so try whither the men he name make there so for him or no. For otherwise for shame he would not haue quoted them so negligently falsely and corruptly as when I come to that place I shall shew thee hee hath These thinges considered Christian Reader thou must bee very simple and haue before hand thy minde wholy forestalled with his false principles or else hee shall winne with thee little credit to his cause or disgrace to ours Howbeit seeing both his whole drift and his publishers in his preface was as it euidently thereby appeares vnder the odious names of heretiques and schismatiques to disgrace vs and the trueth that wee professe as though it were not once to be called in questiō whither they and their crue were the onely sound Catholickes and Christians in the world before I let thee proceede come to the view of his declamation made to that ende and of my answere thereunto this vpon good and most cleare ground I protest vnto thee and assure thee what brags soeuer he or any other of his fellows make of their popish and Romish Religion that now is prosessed amongst them besides all other things that can or may be saied against it it is such a Religion and their Church the vpholder thereof such a dame as is the very nurse and baude of monstrous impietie as is intolerably iniurious to the right of the good estates of all Christian Princes and their people and as lastly howsoeuer it may seeme to carry a shew of holinesse it is not so but indeede cunningly vnder the colour thereof aymeth at no marke more then to aduaunce the pride pompe and gaine of her louers The first is euident in that their doctrine of their Popes supermacy is such as that for money hee may pardon any sinne as their practise teacheth either committed or to be committed yea their verie Hedge-priestes by the authority of the power of absolution giuen vnto them vpon penaunce done how light soeuer if it so seeme good vnto them haue and doe take vpon them marueilously that way to breede immunity and impunity by their absoluing whom for
in b But that place you find not in this booke some other place but at this time we must treat of our vocation to answere him and his complices how and by what vertue we exercise our ministry c This I deny that you come to your calling in this sort for neither is there right succession amongst your Bishops and Pastours nor continuance in that trueth which yet you say only neuer proue We are called to this estate according to the ordinary way that is to say by the right succession of Bishops and Pastours and by the coÌ„tinuance of one Catholique faith deriued froÌ„ the Apostles to our daies without the interruption of it vniuersally d That trueth indeede hath alwaies coÌ„tinued and shall by the meanes of faithfull teachers but neither with you nor by meanes of your teachers is at all proued by there places Math. 5. Ephes 4. for in diuers places of the world it hath beene euer cleare and certaine manifestly shining like the light set on the table to giue light to all those of the house and not vnder the bushell to be shadowed with darkenes Saint Paul e Peruse the place you shal finde that though Paul reckon vp there those ministeries which should fully be sufficieÌ„t for the Church yet he once meÌ„tioneth not your gretest Prelacâ—es Howsoeuer therfore it may be as you hold they be necessary and most necessary for the pompe of your Church that so the better she might answere her patterne Apoc 17. yet thereby we may see Christs Church shall may grow to her perfection yet neuer bee acquaâ—nted with them after that he had recited by order the Ecclesiasticall Hierarchie I meane of the Apostles Prophets and EuaÌ„gelists he doeth declare at the last the cause why they were instituted being for the edification of the mistical body of Christ the which is the Catholique Church vntil saieth he that in the vnity of faith we go to meete him He taketh his similitude of many that come from diuerse waies and meete all in one way f Indeede hee plainely there teacheth thaâ— there shall bee alwaies to that ende teachers in he Church but hee saieth not that they shall so succeede one another either in person or place aâ— you would â—eene thereupon to builde For no such line of continuall locall or personall succession from his time to this day can be produced And thus hee meanes that the spiritual edification of the Church ordeined of Bishops Pastours and Doctours shall endure vntill that the Gospell be preached through all nations By the effect of the which Gospell both French Spanish English Greeke Persian Arabian Latines Barbares with many other nations which were too iediâ—â— to name haue met together hauing of great antiquity all one kinde of Catholicke faith by the Apostles and their successours for euer As the some of God before he suffred did attaine arriue to the perfectioÌ„ of his age euen so his misticall body of the Church shall continue in this world vntill it be perfect in his members and that the number of the chosen be accomplished And euen as a materiall building caÌ„not be perfectly atchieued without g We see and heare of many great goodly buildings in the ende perfited in building whereof there haue beene many and sometimes long intermission continuance of workemen and masons euen so the spirituall building of the Church cannot be atchieued without the succession of Biâ—â—ops and Pastours preaching or causing the word of God to be preached which is the very spiritual building the which hath beene euer common and visible in the Church according to the prophecie of Esay h Sap. â—1 say you wel hit the place is in Esay 62. Sap. 61 â—ho meaning to declare the care that God taketh as touching the preâ—eruation of his Church hee did say as it were representing the state of Hierusalem I haue established and ordeyned i But few such haue beene in your time of succession these many yeares watchmen vpon he walles the which shall neuer holde their peace neither day â—or night These watchmen are those that haue annouÌ„ced to vs our salâ—ation They are the trumpets of Iesus Christ which neuer haue left their â—ounding in the true Church of God from the Apostles time vnto this â—resent day AN ANSWERE TO MASTER IOHN de Albines discourse against heresies called and accounted by his frendes A notable discourse to that purpose made by Thomas Sparke Pastour of Blechley in the countie of Buck. .1591 Chapter first CALVIN we esteeme and account of as of a rare singular minister of Christ his writings as they well deserue wee thinke reuerently of and you haue tried them to be of great force power to shake the very grounds and pillars of your Babilonical building but our Patriarch we neither account nor cal him though you in your third word take it and therefore set it downe for graunted that we doe It seemeth you thinke scorne that hee should charge your Priesthoode not to bee of God and so to cal you to an accouÌ„t of your vocatioÌ„ Indeede I caÌ„not blame you that it grieueth you that that should be called into question seeing it is a thing you haue bragged on so long haue gained by at the hands of the blind ignoraÌ„t both al the credit wealth you haue especially seing also that what words soeuer you vse to countenance the matter yet you shall neuer be able to iustifie it Howbeit as though not onely you were able to answere Caluin to the full in this point but also as though there were either some great impiety or vanity at the least in his words you recite them twise admonishing your Reader that they are his wordes Be it that they be so what haue you saied either to argue the least folly in theÌ„ or to iustifie your vocation in such sort as therein he proueth you must or els it cannot be of God First you woulde proue Caluin in these wordes to offer you wrong in that out of the 5 to the Hebr. he gathereth that vnlesse you can proue God to be the authour of your vocatioÌ„ it cannot be of God because the Ciuill law prescribeth that one should proue his right of possession before he demaunde it and that he should restore the spoile before the suit proceede But who seeth not that that which he alleadgeth out of the 5 to the Hebr. doth more iustifie his demauÌ„de that either you must shew that god is the authour of your Priesthoode or els confesse that you are not called of God then anie thing that you haue noted out of the Ciuil law can proue that he offereth you any wrong in calling for this at your hands Because you are an Archdeacon it should seeme that you would faine that men should thinke to the ende you may be iudged the fitter man to execute your office that you haue some skill in the
Ciuill lawe in that you are thus ready euen at the first to cite it For to small force else it serueth for neither is your axiome so general but that it notwithstanding rightly vnderstoode a man may lawfully and orderly proceede and yet first demaūde his right to possession and after timely enough proue his demaūde thereunto to be both honest and iust neither doth Caluin or any of vs claime any right of possession of your massing Priesthoode that you neede bid vs first proue our right thereunto For we detest it as a thing Antichristian and vtterly vnlawfull and we holde that no sound Christian will euer plead for any right thereunto And as for the spoile of your temples and reuenneues that you would haue vs to restore before the suite betwixt vs proceede we say againe that both law and reason tesseth you that before you should so peremptorily call for restitution you should proue the wrong Which neither you nor none of your side though to bewray what grieueth you most namely the parting away from your fat morsels vnlesse your bare accusation were straight a conuiction haue yet once proued against vs and therefore the action may proceede well enough against you for any thing that your Ciuil law can helpe you We are in possession we graūt of Churches and reuennues that heretofore you held in sundry places but herein wee haue not wronged you at al howsoeuer you coūt it a spoiling of you For first through the mercy of God to his Church of his iustice towards you your sins being growen ripe by the light of his word he made it appeare that you were wrong withholders of these things in that they being founded and giuen for the maintenance of a holy Ministery for the sound feeding of peoples soules you vsed thē for the support of an Antichristian Ministery to poison the soules of men with his deuilish doctrine and vsages therefore God secōdly stirred vp the harts of Princes and Christian magistrates orderly to dispossesse you thereof to giue them vnto such as would vse thē better Yea so far of is it that either they or we cā iustly be said herein to haue done you any wrong or spoiled you that wee are able to proue that you getting and keeping them in your handes for the cause aforesaid most sacrilegiously spoiled the true Church of her reuēnues conuerting them to the maintenance of the seruice of Antichrist to the most dāgerous robbing of the peoples soules of the foode of life due vnto them therefore and for this cause you had wrong that you were let alone with the possession of them so long as you were Now whereas before you will proceede to answere Caluins demaūd as a sharpe Logician you say his argument seemeth vnto you very simple to say that if you cānot shew that God is the authour of your Priesthood then you must confesse that it is not of God seeing that without being called you take it vpō you In reciting thus his words you wilfully alter them and frame his argument otherwise then he made it For he saied not you your selfe being witnes in setting downe his words before seeing that without being called yee take it vpō you but seing of their own boldnes saith he speaking of you they haue takē it in hand hauing therein relatiō to the Priesthood it selfe which if you cannot proue as you neuer shal to be instituted of God it must needs follow not only that it is not of God but that you haue taken it in hand of your owne boldnes as he saieth so by most necessary consequent your calling cānot be of God So that he reasoneth not frō your rūning into your priesthood of your selues without a calling as by reciting his argumēt altering his words as I haue saied you would seeme to vnderstand him to proue your Priesthood not to be of God but frō the vnlawfulnes of your Priesthood it selfe For he was not so simple I warrant you but he knew as wel as you that many haue doe and wil hereafter intrude themselues vpon an office of Gods owne ordināce and that notwtstāding their lacke of lawful calling thereūto the office yet remaineth holy lawful and good And therefore he most plainly laboureth to proue your popish calling to your Priesthoode vnlawful whatsoeuer you make of your ordinary calling thereūto because the Priesthoode it selfe is not of God therfore such a thing as you haue taken in hand of your owne heads what ordinary calling soeuer by man you haue thereūto And therefore as plainly as may be he telleth you by warrāt of the 5. to the He. that either you must shew that God is the authour institutour of your Priesthood or els you must confesse that it is not of God but a thing takē in hād or deuised o◠your own boldnes And this to haue beene his purpose and drift vnles your eies be very bad and your wits yet worse you could not chuse but perceiue But this argument belike was to strong for you therefore as in the like case it is a common tricke with the men of your faction you thought best to frame you another weake enough and so fit for your strength which whiles you haue labored to cōfute you haue fought but with your owne shadow slaine a childe of your owne begetting Your exāples therefore of Dathā Abirā Ozias you may take hōe againe keepe thē in store vntil you haue more neede of thē In the meane time remēber that though you haue answered your owne argumēt yet Caluins stādeth in his ful force stil against you For though it follow not you haue entruded your selues therefore the office wherupon you haue intruded is not of God because these which you named intruded themselues vpon the lawful Priesthoode of Aarō yet I hope how simple soeuer and worthily this argument of your owne framing seemed vnto you that you wil graūt that ther is both strength force in this which is Caluins indeed your Priesthoode it selfe is but a bare ordinance and deuise of man and hath not God for the authour thereof therefore whatsoeuer your calling bee thereunto it is vnlawfull and not of God If you would not haue this conclusion verified of your calling it is not enough for you to saie that you came to your Priesthood according to the ordinarie way nay it is not enough to proue it which yet you go not about for commonly not onelie for this but for all thinges els of importance through your booke your bolde assertion is your onelie proofe For if the office it selfe be not of God but a plant which the heauenly father hath not planted then howsoeuer you come vnto it your calling cannot bee of God A vaine thing therefore is it in you here or any where els to spend words and time to shew how you attaine your Priesthood hauing not anie where first proued the Priesthood it selfe to be of God That
I cannot deny but that I finde all these and the Churches vnder them still charged to holde errours and heresies but this then withall I infer the more true that it is and hath beene thus with them the more euident it is of what small acount this personall and locall succession is of it selfe either to giue credit to Bishops and Pastours or their religiō that can plead that And this further I adde if these be sufficient causes to make their alleadged succession to be of no valew then there is as great cause why succession bragged on so much by the Romanists should be reiected as a thing not worth the naming For not onely in inferiour places of Bishops and Priestes which is a thing that they will not striue with vs about it is so manifest that there haue beene many heretiques amongst them but also euen in their line of Popes who as some of them hold cannot erre there haue bene sundry heretiques also For Tertullian contra Praxeam writeth of a Bishop of Rome that did allow of the Prophesies of Montanus as he saieth therefore sent letters of communion to the Churches of Asia and Phrigia thereabout And Athanasius in his epistle ad solitariam vitam agentes and so also Damasus in the life of Liberius and Hierō de ecclesiasticis scriptoribus testifie that Pope Liberius was drawen in the ende to subscribe to Arianisme And Honorius died an heretique as it is to be seene in the first general councel Act. 12. 13. c. Liberatus also Breuiarii Cap. 22. witnesseth that Vigilius in secret fauoured heretiques Anastasius the second fell into a condemned heresie as we read Dist 19. Cap. Anastasius and therefore would haue restored Accatius a condemned heretique And yet I say nothing of Pope Iohn 23. condemned for an heretique by the councell of Cōstance the schole of Paris for denying in effect the immortality of the soule Yea the euidence of the trueth in this point is so open and strong that it hath caused their owne frends to condemne them of grosse flattery that holde that Popes haue not and cannot fall into heresie as any man may see that will read Alphonsus contra haereses lib. 1. Cap. 2. 4. Lyra vpon the 16 of Matth. and the third Synodall Epistle of the councell of Basill And that the Romish Church doeth now holde as grosse and palpable errours and heresies as they charge these withall if I proue not ere I haue done with Albine I will neuer craue credit either to our ministers or to our Churches and cause Wherfore to leaue the proofe of this to his place or places to goe on with that which I haue vndertooke to proue against them concerning this their brag of right succession whereas thirdly I saied that though we were not able to deduce or deriue downe from the Apostles wtout interruption any locall and personall succession vnto our Ministers that now bee yet as long as ours teach and our people embrace the same doctrine that they taught wee are well enough whatsoeuer they say to the contrary that resteth onely now in this case to be proued But before I come to the proofe of this least in this my assertion I be mistaken I would first that it were marked that I speake but by way of supposition that is if we were not able to set downe a continued line downe from them to vs without any interruption for in the 4. Chapter following I hope I shall set downe such a descent of our Church from them to vs as whereby it may sufficiently appeare that there was neuer age nor time since but our Church and religion hath had her teachers and hearers Secondly I would haue it also vnderstoode that my meaning is though it were so that wee could not make recitall or demonstration of any such descent or succession in that processe of time distance of place and the force and subtlety of our enemies kept vs from knowing their names persons and places that yet for the continuance of the trueth and the Church of Christ amongst men I constantly holde and beleeue that there hath beene a continuall and vninterrupted succession of teachers and embracers of GODS trueth whereof his Church consistes euen from the first beginning thereof and shall bee to the ende Onely this is it that thereby I am contented bee insinuated that the Churches of Christ if they can proue that they are taught by such ministers as God doeth raise vp vnto them according vnto his good pleasure whither ordinarily or extraordinarily and that they embrace no other doctrine but that which Christ and his Apostles taught witnes the canonicall scriptures that then they are to be accounted Apostolike and holy Churches of God and that in such a case especially in and after great persecutiōs ruines long oppressions of their mēbers children they neede not to be daunted nor discouraged neither in respect of their ministers and teachers nor in respect of their doctrine though they cannot be able lineally to name the persons either by whom their ministers downe from the Apostles haue had their vocation deriued vnto them or else by whom euer since that trueth hath beene continued For howsoeuer in visible Churches of GOD whiles they stande in florishing or vnoppressed state and condition by the fury of persecutours there is a set order and forme visibly to bee obserued in the vocation of Church ministers in respect of which estates and times it is easie for them that liue therein or within the knowledge and remembrāce thereof to make demonstration of the lyne of succeson yet when in the iust iudgement of God the Churches shall bee oppressed as now a long a time they haue beene vnder the tyranny of Antichrist then and after such a time such a thing growes to many not onely harde but also impossible And in such tymes wee finde that the Lorde of his wisedome and power to continue yet his Church rayseth vp men though not by the ordinary way vsed in the former tymes as after the dispersion of the Church at Hierusalem by meanes of the persecution there when Stephen was stoned we reade that the Disciples beeing dispersed and namely with them Philip the Deacon that hee preached the Apostles not aware thereof for any thing that appears so vnder Cōstātine Antonius the heremite taught at Alexandria and vnder Valens Aphraates Flauianus and Iulianus at Antioch beeing then but Monkes who in those dayes were not so much as counted amongst Clarkes as wee reade in Nicephorus libro 11. Chap. 15. These thinges thus premised thereby not onely my meaning shall rightly bee conceiued but also that which I haue saied in some sort is already confirmed But my reason indeede is that true and sounde apostolicke doctrine in the good prouidence of God towards his Church opened and continued in the same though by men not comming to their places of teaching by the ordinary way alwayes but sometimes somewhat
according to the successioÌ„ of those Bishops vnto whoÌ„ only the Apostles coÌ„mitted the custody of the Church throughout the world the which saith he is come to vs. This saied Irenaeus doeth write in his third booke and second Chapter that he and his fellowes did withstand the Valentinians and the Marcionistes which were great heretiques by the traditions of the Apostles d A cursed glosse for it corrupteth the text for the tradition that he speaketh of had good warrant in the writeÌ„ word that is to say the doctrine not writen but receaued from age to age of the Apostles and so continued till their time He saith likewise vnto the Traditions which are of the Apostles and that by successioÌ„ of pastours haue beene vsed in the Church we doe persuade and prouoke those that speake against Traditions Hee writes as much more in the third Chapter of the saied booke Forasmuch saith he as it were to tedious to set forth in one booke the Successours of al the Churches and to tel theÌ„ one by one we doâ—â—â—â—â— throw those that for vaine glory doe seek to gather disciples togither touching them contrary to that that doeth appertaine vnto the traditions of the Apostles the which we doe shew to theÌ„ by the saied Traditions and by the faith that hath beene taught and is come to vs by succession of the Bishops of the great and ancient Church of Rome the which was founded by the two glorious Martirs and Apostles Saint Peter Saint Paul These are his words in his third booke aduersus haereses a The third you should say the fifth Chapter And at the beginning of the saied Chapter he saieth thus All these that will vnderstand the trueth may presently regard the traditions of the Apostles which are manifest throughout the world and wee cannot count the number of those that haue bene instituted and ordeined Bishops in the Church and their Successours till our daies which haue neither knowen nor taught any thing like vnto the fables and tales that these doe preach vnto vs. b If you say so you say it without cause and vntruely Not without cause we may now a daies say the like of the Lutherans Caluinistes other sects of our time After this he doeth set forth all the Popes of Rome c If the Popes euer since had beene like these you and wee should not haue needed to striue as we doe from Saint Peter vnto Eleutherius which was Pope in his time And he did affirme that that number did suffice to proue that the doctrine of Marcian and Valentinian was false very hurtfull because that it was vnknown or at the least not receiued or approued by the Church being vnder the gouernance of any of thâ—se Popes Then with greater reason ought prescription to take place against d True but such you shall neuer proue ours to bee a new doctrine which hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares or at the least if any body sought to publish it he was condemned as a false perâ—itious hereticke The V. Chapter YOu must remember that Vincentius liued 1000 yeares ago by your own coÌ„fessioÌ„ that therfore he speaketh of their time and of the Catholique Church and ancient faith that then was Whereof if you vnderstand him we say as he saied and are more willing to ioine and holde communion with that Church of Christ that he speaketh of then you but then his saying maketh directly against you For neither your Church nor faith was in his dayes We grauÌ„t you also that Irenaeus did vrge succession of persons to stop the mouthes of the heretiques as you shew in this Chapter out of him but withal then you must not forget that he liued not long after the Apostles times when as yet they whose Succession he alleadged continued in the sincerity of the Apostolique doctrine from which long ago your Roman Church as it is now hath fallen by antichristian apostacy For that hee calleth the principall succession and those bishops onely he teacheth are to be obeyed who togither with the succession of their Bishoprickes haue receiued the gift of trueth as I noted vnto you out of his fourth booke 43 Chapter in my answere to your first Chapter But Irenaeus no where prescribeth that his example of vrging hereticks to see their folly by Succession for a perpetuall rule to followe neither therein doeth he prophecy that for 1000 yeares after further those successiue lines of Bishops or any other would continue so in possession of the trueth of doctrine as that safely alwaies they might be ioyned vnto For he was not ignorant what was prophecied concerning the comming of Antichrist 2 Thess 2. and Reuel 17. and that Paul tolde to the Pastors of Ephesus Act. 20. that after his departure there would arise vp euen amongst themselues grieuous wolues not sparing the flock which must needs import that howsoeuer in his time he thought sometimes of succession of bishops that continued in the trueth that yet it was farre from his meaning to prophecy that so it would be alwaies You reason therefore in this point as one that to proue the stewes at Rome now to be pure virgins should alleadge for proofe thereof that they were so when they were yong children For euen like difference and ods there is betwixt the Church of Rome now and her bishops and pastours and that that was in the daies times that you and the authours that you alleage speake of For whereas vnto these times the Church of Rome her bishops pastours stoode and continued in the trueth since not only many of the bishops of Rome themselues whom you hold are freest furthest of of al other from erring as I haue shewed already most plainly fell into heresie but also al your Romish doctrine which we now count cal papistical was diuised found out since those times and is also not only beside but contrary to the doctrine then taught receiued by the ancient Church of Rome her pastours as ere I haue done with you I hope at least in great part sufficieÌ„tly to proue It should seeme therfore that either you in thus reasoning are very childish your selfe or els you thinke you haue to deale but with babes and fooles in that because Irenaeus that florished within two hundred yeares after Christ when the Church was yet pure and vndefiled in comparison of the tymes that followed could and did vrge Succession of persons ioined with succession of trueth therefore you may that liue 1500. yeares after Christ and more You must first proue that succession of trueth is vnseparable from personall succession that euer since and now also the Bishops pastours whose personall succession you bragge of haue continued in the trueth as well as they did whose names he reciteth Whereof neither shall either you or any of you be able to proue as long as the world standeth Fye therefore for shame that you
Catholicâ teneor that is is to bee preferred before all those thinges whereby otherwise I am held in the Catholicke Church The third place likewise which you alleadge here out of Augustine as you haue quoted it serueth onely to bewray either your grosse ignorance or negligence For I finde he wrote 2. bookes against the aduersarie of the lawe and the Prophets but none in all his tomes can I finde fathered vpon him writen as you say against the aduersarie of the olde and new lawe and if you meant the former there being two bookes of that title and euery one consisting of many Chapters why speake you thereof as though he had writen but one and name not the Chapter when you tell vs where to finde the place you shall be more particulerly answered thereunto In the meane time you see in Augustines iudgement in the two other places that the trueth taught in the canonical scriptures is to be preferred before all other motiues to keepe a man in the true Catholique Church contrarie whereunto I am sure hee neither teacheth where you meane nor any where else You should therefore in his opinion farre better bestowe your time then you doe if you would bestow it in prouing by the scriptures that you your Church were stable in this trueth especially seeing trueth it selfe euen here hath enforced you to confesse that that stablenes is atteined vnto by the knowledge and intelligence of the scriptures But you adde that these scriptures theÌ„ must be vnderstoode according to the traditions of the church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops If by the church you did vnderstande as you should the true and pure church of Christ and by her traditions and Bishops such as were sound that is such as are truely iustifiable by the canonicall scriptures as the ancient fathers Irenaeus Tertullian Augustine with others of those and former times were woont to vnderstaÌ„d them as I haue shewed before when to stop the mouthes of heretiques they did appeale to theÌ„ then wee would most willingly ioyne with you that issue by the scriptures so vnderstoode to trie whether you or we haue attained to the stablenes of trueth But vnderstaÌ„ding therby as you doe your Romish church for these last 500. or 600. yeares her traditions Bishops we say and sure we are we are able to proue it that so far of is it that the scriptures are to be vnderstoode according to theÌ„ that there is no readier way to misunderstand them and to make them to haue a mutable and flexible sence now one way now another then to make them they being so contrary as they be to the ancient sound traditions of Christs church which alwaies were consonant if not the very same to that is taught in the word writen the Bishops you meane being likewise so different from them that were in the primatiue church and ofteÌ„ also so varying amoÌ„gst themselues as they are in the interpreting of them to be the rules of right vnderstanding of theÌ„ Finally if you had any forhead or conscience you would be ashamed so to abuse your poore simple reader as you do in going about to make him beleeue that because Augustine could or did say that the church had continued in it froÌ„ the Apostles times through the succession of Bishops to his that therefore hee saied it had so to ours there being aboue 1000. yeares difference The VII Chapter YOV doe studie as much as you can to reiecte our succession and not without cause a Succession of persons without succession also in trueth neuer was esteemed knowing that this onelie doeth suffice to ouerthrowe all the heresies of those new reformed Gospellers Caluin as the most appareÌ„t doeth seeke to proue that our reason is of no force because that the Greekes haue had euer succession of pastours and yet wee doe not holde them as Catholickes But if the Reader doe well note that that wee haue alreadie saied hee shall finde the answere vnto this obiection I meane because that the Greekes haue not had succession a Holde you to this you may giue ouer your brags of succession for shame and continuance of doctrine called vnitie of faith by the Apostles the which ought euer to bee ioyned to the continuance of the Pastours to shew the true recognisaunce of the Catholicke Religion There is none that doe studie and reade of those matters but that doe knowe the vnconstant faith of the Greekes as touching the proceeding of the holie Ghost the which errour they had abiured at the last councell of Florence and yet notwithstanding they did turne to it againe besides diuerse other light things to speake moderately b You haue as many thinges of importance and more too gainesaiâ—d by your forefathers which are not approued by their ancieâ—t fathers S. Iohn Chrysostome S. Ciril S Basil Athanatius nor yet by our aduersaries at this preseÌ„t time The which errours I haue no neede to set forth in this booke for my intent is but to speake of that that pricks vs at hand because of ill neighbourhood Some doe alleadge vnto vs the c We neuer alleage this alone but together with the false doctrine and vnlawfull vocation of your Bishops and Pastours negligence of our pastours and their ill liues for the which cause they saie that the mentioned succession cannot take place But this argument is of no force For although that the carelesse liues of some Bishops and ecclesiasticall persons haue beene so great so hurtfull vnto the bloud of our sauiour Christ I meane to the soules bought with it yet notwithstanding that d Yet thus for the principall point you are glad to fly from your great prelats to your poore priests the church hath not lost the succession continuance of one doctrine as touching the administration of the sacramentes by those that were deputed by the Bishops e Indeede this kind of diuision is altogether practised in your Romish Church by your Cardinals and great prelats If one should see a Prelate doing nothing and his lieutenant doing all which of those two would you take to bee Bishop they haue both deuided their charges the one receiueth the profit the other taketh all the paine If they be both content what losse do you feele he that hath anie interest let him valewe the damadge And although that the negligence of the Bishop bee not excusable f And yet nothing more coÌ„mon wi h you then wilful continuance yea by your Popes good leaue in this sin before God with the diligence of the deputie nor his conscience cleare yet this ought to suffice that though his faults be through negligence or through euill liuing g True but such doctrine you shal neuer proue yours yet that ought not to perturbe the assurance of our doctrine the which we haue taught vs by the word of God interpreted by the true doctours that haue beene
before vs agreeing in vnitie of faith as I haue already said For neither the naughtines of h There is no such there mentioned this is your common hap in your quotations It seemes you would haue said 2. Kings 16. Achas Num. 1. nor of Ioram nor of diuerse other great sinners which are inrolled in the booke of the generation of Iesus Christ were not able to withstand the fulfilling of the promise of God made to Abraham that is to saie that he would be borne of this line Euen so the ill liues and conuersation of diuerse wicked Popes that haue followed after Saint Peter haue neuer beene a This is true and yet you neuer the nearer For though al Papists faile in faith yet his church neuer faileth able to moue Christ to breake his promise that is to saie that the faith of his Church should neuer faile Math. 16. and that the gates of hell that is to saie of infidelity which are the portes of damnation should neuer preuaile against it b I see not how that chapter or any thing therein serueth to this purpose any whit at all Esay 58. Our aduersaries therefore that take such great paines to set forth in golden legends the liues of the wicked Popes that haue beene since Saint Peters time thinking thereby to ouerthrowe the succession of the Catholicke ecclesiasticall faith c Your comparison is odiou◠neither doe wee lay open their wicked liues to that ende you speake of but to shew that your glory is your shame doe no lesse offend God then if they should go about to proue the promise of God made to the Patriarches to bee vaine because of the evill liues of their successours Therefore those that doe reproche vnto vs now that the Popes of our daies are not altogither so holie as S. Peter wee doe confesse it But they cannot deny or they will confesse vnto vs that the aboue named euil Kings Achaz Ioram Manasses Amon Iechonias and others did leade no such holy liues as Abraham Isaac Iacob or Dauid yet notwithstanding those euil Kings haue beene set forth in the generation of our Sauiour as the fathers of the iust Iesus Christ Let them iudge then that haue any witte whether this bee a great folly or no to see how these crafty coggers of the scriptures should make many simple persons refuse to be the Popes spirituall children because they were sinners seeking thereby to ouerthrow all the ancient customes of the Church The VII Chapter WHither onely your succession doeth suffice to ouerthrow all our Religion or any part of it though you here confidently say it is and suppose that to be the cause why we reiect it I refer to the iudgement of the reader by that which hitherto hath beene saied by you and confuted by me concerning the same Whereby also I doubt not but euery indifferent reader may perceiue that we haue and doe still yeelde other causes of our reiection of it and not this at all Whereas you call our Religion here heresie that you haue learned of the corrupt Orator Tertullus Act. 24. But as he tearmeth poore Paul there a captaine of the Sect or heresie of the Nazarites and the high Priest and elders saied it was euen so yet hee was not ashamed of the Gospell of Christ which they so tearmed but stoutly saied before Felix to their faces that according to that way which they counted heresie he worshipped the God of his fathers beleeuing all that was writē in the law the Prophets so though you giue vs neuer so many nicknames and tearme our Religion neuer so oft new and an heresie and haue your high Priest of Rome and your elders to bear you out in so doing we neuer a whit the more mislike of our Religion as long as wee are able in trueth to say with Saint Paul which our consciences witnesse comfortably we may that therein we doe but beleeue that which is taught vs in the canonicall Scriptures Indeede not Caluin only but euery one of vs when we haue to doe with you in this question of your succession we tell you your reason drawen frō your succession is of no force seeing the Greekes whom you account heretiques may vse that argument as well as you But to preuent this our obiection against your argument of succession you say They haue not succession and continuance of doctrine the which ought euer to be ioyned to the continuāce of pastors to shew the true recognisance of the Catholique Religion We are glad to see heare that euidence force of trueth hath wrong frō you this kinde of honest true replie to our obiection yet we thanke you not for it at all For ful gladly if our obiections had not driuen you to it perforce would you haue run on which bare succession of Bishops pastours without any mention of this Well howsoeuer you haue beene drawen to confesse thus much thereupon it doeth most euidently followe that if there be as little continuance lesse too in the Apostolicke faith and doctrine in your succession as there is amongst the Greekes then by your owne confession your succession is as weake a recognisance of the Catholique Religion as theirs And therefore the case thus standing you had neede to haue bestowed lesse paines to proue your personall succession and more to haue proued this succession and continuance of the true Catholicke doctrine for the other wtout this you see is nothing What a preposterous course is this then that you haue takē to take such leasure to bestow pains on that which when you haue gotten is nothing to find no leasure to bestow any paines on this which if you could haue proued your aduersaries would haue stoode with you no longer Enter yet into this controuersie when you will I dare vndertake if you will be tried in this case by the canonicall scriptures which as I haue shewed you must of necessity it shall easily be proued that notwithstanding all you can say against the Greekes your popish Religion consisteth of more heresies and is a greater Apostasie from the ancient Catholique Apostolique faith then theirs The greatest thing you charge thē withall is their denying of the proceeding of the holy ghost from the Father the Sonne which indeede if they denied in that sence that is obiected against them by you doubtles therin they were heretiques But it should seeme that they refuse only that word as not vnderstood of thē added as they say without the consent of the whole church to the creede of feare onely least by admitting the word they should thereby be enforced to cōfesse that he came not of one beginning but of two beginnings in the meane time vsing other words expressing in effect the same thing And if it be thus as in the last session of the Florētine councell it should seeme to be els where thē in that respect their cause is not so ill as
by BertraÌ„ and others before named and their followers as we haue made it most euident in many bookes writeÌ„ to that purpose namely of late in a great booke called Orthodoxus coÌ„seÌ„sus the true catholick coÌ„sent of the holy Scriptures ancient Church of the trueth of the words of the Lords supper and of al the coÌ„trouersie thereabout printed at Tygure 1578 which booke al the swarme of you wil neuer be souÌ„dly able to answere coÌ„fute as long as you liue And therfore al the rest of this Chapter is needles wherein you suppose that betwixt Christ and his Apostles and vs there is none that we caÌ„ produce of our iudgemeÌ„t or otherwise against you But you take vpoÌ„ you to proue that we cut of theÌ„ al that haue bene betweene theÌ„ vs because Caluin hath writeÌ„ haÌ„dling this matter of the sacrament that he did find that they of old time had chaÌ„ged the fashioÌ„ of the administratioÌ„ therof otherwise theÌ„ Christs institutioÌ„ would beare c. wheruâ—oÌ„ your coÌ„clusion followeth not for diuers causes For an argumeÌ„t froÌ„ one to al holdeth not as Caluin hath done so ergo it is all out opion we al do so For though we accouÌ„t of him as of a rare singuler minister of the Lord yet wee doe not binde our selues to doe and say whatsoeuer he did and saied For we know him to haue beene a man subiect to error and infirmity for al his gifts neither wil you be coÌ„tented that such an argument should hold alwaies drawn froÌ„ any one of your greatest most famous learned writers to presse al the rest And a second reason of the weaknes of your argumeÌ„t is that there is more in your coÌ„clusion then is in the antecedent giuen you by him For you would conclude for those are your words to the proofe whereof you cite Caluin that we condeÌ„ne cut of al the ChristiaÌ„s that haue bene are betwixt Christ his Apostles and vs wheras Caluin speaketh not of al but of some of olde time The 3 reason Caluin himselfe giueth you in the eueÌ„ in the words set downe by you he sheweth plainly that though in theÌ„ that he spake of he noted some aberration froÌ„ the simplicity of Christs institution yet he did not therfore cut theÌ„ of froÌ„ the Church nor coÌ„deÌ„ne theÌ„ What are you such a cutter that you straight cut of al those froÌ„ coÌ„munioÌ„ with you in whoÌ„ you caÌ„ iustly finde any fault or errour in opinion or practise of life Surely then you must cut of most of your best frends That which we can foundly proue to be a fault in brethren either ancient or of later time we may safely note tel them of and labour to reforme yet as long as they ioine togither with vs in one God faith and Baptisme otherwise we can and ought to holde peace Christian communion with them or els where caÌ„ there at any time be any true concord or peace kept in the church For some differences of opinions vsages there haue alwaies yet beene and wil be betwixt one particuler Church and another and betwixt some members of the true church or other You needed not therfore I warrant you one whit haue beene afraide that Caluin his fellowes were so scrupulous that they would not ioine in fellow ship with some such as he speaketh of there and yet the letteth not but that he should couÌ„sel his readers to prefer Christs own simple institution before the vsage of them or any other differing from it The XI Chapter YOu doâ— verie wel that S. Paul doth coÌ„pare many times the mistical body of the church vnto a natural body seing that Iesus Christ is the head vnto whoÌ„ the body is ioined by ioints bones sinews If one should then demande of you how the feete are ioined to the head you will answere me by the legs which are next vnto the feete And if I aske you how the legs are ioyned to the head you will answer by the ioints and by the 〈◊〉 of the backe and so consequently from member to member I doe beleeue that we are all of one accord * 1 Cor. 10. that the ende of the world is at hand and so consequently that we are the lower most part of the body so that 〈◊〉 the feete or the legs Then my masters you that haue made so fâ—ne aâ— Anotomie of the Masse at my request make another of the ministrie of your congregation a You were a very pleasant man be like that could thus play your selfe a fit of mirth and when you had done daunce after your owne pipe it seemes you thought that the sport then would be so pleasant that no beholder could forbare laughter If you should see such another as Apelles that would paint a man and that he had drawen his head and without painting the rest of his bodie he had set his feete vnder his eares what would you saâ—â— to such a Table Spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici Would you not thinke that he was a simple painter or else a great Iester Euen so doe you deserue that one should laugh at your ministerie b This is vntrue and a grosse slaÌ„der for we hold and teach that euer since Christ to our daies there haue bene both shepheards and sheepe ioyning with vs in the vnity of faith therfore you laugh at your owne shadow and vaine fansie For you will ioine your Church if it may bee so called vnto the church of the Apostles without setting forth anie members betweene them You take but scant measure when you will cut of all the Bishops Pastours and doctours that haue beene from the Apostles time till our daies they being the members that followe the head of the church This maie well be called a new Religion or to saie the truth it is a meere presumption to flie without winges or to climbe without a ladder And I saie to you againe that this is not the waie to followe the counsell of the great Sheepheard that I mentioned before who doeth saie vnto vs that if we will not misse the waie of the Catholicks we ought to follow the flocke of those sheepe that haue gone before vs that is to saie that we should reckon c But thâ—s in truth yours caÌ„not do therefore yours is not the Catholicke Church by your owne reason by succession the Pastours that haue succeeded in continuance of one kinde of doctrine the which as we haue shewed the Catholicke church doeth and hath euer done The XI Chapter As though you had most substaÌ„tially proued by Caluins words that we cut of all Christians betwixt the Apostles and vs in this Chapter you vrge the metaphor of a body whereunto vsually the church of Christ is compared whereupon you gather that as there is an orderly connexion and situation of members in a body so there must be in the church and that therefore our church must
ministers of our Church and Religion and no maruell that they that are not light headed send vs to preach in new found landes c. This in effect you haue often saied and if that will serue you will not sticke with vs to say it in euerie Chapter But this being indeede the question whereupon the determinatioÌ„ of the whole controuersie betwixt you and vs dependeth namely whither our Religion bee not the true ancient Religion taught by Christ and his Apostles for you to passe it ouer thus with bare words and neuer to go about soundly to proue that it is not is but too too childish and ridiculous Well may you in your owne conceite and in the opinion of the simple silly reader seeme herein to haue done a great act but in the iudgement of any of meane witte capacity howsoeuer you may bee counted a wordy man yet you shall neuer be accounted a worthie champion to fight in this greatest question onely with bare wordes The XV. Chapter YOV will saie to me that this argument ought to take place in an ordinarie commission but a Though in such times estates of the Church wherein Luther and some others liued there were iust occasion why God should stirre vp men extraordinarily to serue him yet you know well enough that both he and others whose calling you most cal in question were not without an ordinary outwarde calling of men yours is extraordinary as that was of the Prophets of the olde Testament whom God did sende to correct the Scribes and Pharises and that euen so God hath inspired you and others of your sect to the like effect that is to say to correct the superstitious liues and doctrine of the Papists Idolaters and by this as farre as I can see ye are coÌ„missaries of God in his behalfe yee maie saie wel with S. Paul although yee haue not bene rauished vnto the third heauen * Gal. 1. that ye are not sent by man or of man but by the authoritie of our Sauiour Christ But what would you saie if we should speake against it as a number doe and that to reuenge this quarell we should write against your commission we might well aide our selues with a Sillogisme of our Sauiour Christ if we would come to pleade the matter which is this c* This argument the contrariety betwixt your religioÌ„ Christs being as it is proues neither your Church nor Priests to be of God He that is of God doeth obey *b Joh. 6. b Iohn the eight you would haue saied the word of God but you doe not obey the word of God therefore yee are not of God I knowe that you will denie the Minor and therefore it doeth appertaine to vs to proue it Christ doeth saie * Mat. 22. a In this particuler respect witnes your Popes vsurping ouer Christian Princes none were euer more â—uilâ—y in denying to Cesar that which is Cesars then you Giue vnto Cesar that that appertaineth to Cesar and to God that that appertaineth to God That is to saie to speake familierlie giue Geneua vnto his Lord and the Bishopricke vnto his Bishop Now you doe not obeie this commandement therefore as one that doeth not appertaine vnto God you haue prouided your selfe a new master And because we would not haue some to thinke that we that are not of the cuntrie doe beare false witnes against you or that we doe it without hauing anie interest vnto the matter b Nay the euidence of the matter sheweth that your owne sauage dealings contrary to the publicke edicts of that cuntrey hath caused the stâ—rs there and now of late you haue reuiued them by open treason and rebellion I am sure that all the world doeth know that yee haue set all France in as ill an estate as ye haue done the Dukedome of Sauoy In that that appertaineth to the Church is there anie Bishoprick or Dioces left where ye haue not sought with al your power to preach your holie doctrine where haue ye forgotten that that Saint Paul doth saie which is * Rom. 10. how shal they preach if they are not sent What right haue you to come to reape other mens corne Doe not you remember that that Tertullian doeth write against your elders that did persecute the catholique Church against whom he saieth in his c This TertulliaÌ„ would surely haue saied of you â— he had liued in these daies booke de praescriptione haereticorum What are yee and from whence doe yee come By what right O Marcian doest thou cut downe my woode Why doest thou O Appelles remoue my landes And a little after he sayeth the place is mine I haue beene thus long time in possession and before thee I haue good title and euidence to maintaine my right of those to whom it did appertaine which left it me by inheritaÌ„ce from the Apostles c. Our church of France which is one of the principal members of all the Catholique Church might with good cause saie vnto you the like And I praie what would you answere You cannot denie but that d If this were true as it is false that your religioÌ„ were a thousand yeares olde yet being no elder it is too young by fiue hundreth yeares at the least to be the true religion aboue a thousand yeares before ye were borne that the faith in which yee were baptized and the which you haue falselie denied was planted I doe not saie in this onelie kingdome of France but ouer all Christendome If you pretende any right to the contrarie shew the reason of your possession by the euidence of the e This we can haue often done already ancient doctours and after come to demande it as I haue saied before I meane that you should yeelde the ecclesiasticall gouernment which you haue vsurped in manie places with too great libertie of conscience and licence to doe euill which is the verie death of the soule f S. Augustines words are these quae est pejor mors anima quam libertas erroâ—is as Saint Austine doeth saie Epist 166. And after that yee haue restored France to his olde estate then there will be more apparence of the matter that ye are sent to preach the true word of God then there is now But is this estate that yee are although that God had giuen you commission the which he neuer thought he would haue called it backe because of your noble actes Theodosius and g Areadius I think you ment Arcades which in olde time were Emperours of Rome L. si quis in tantam cod vnde vi did establish or make al Edict that if the true owner or lord of a thing should vse anie force or to seeke by the waie of violence without staying for the senteÌ„ce of the Iudge h Euen thus you and your predecessours got possession of your places therefore by this law you haue but right
to returne to your perswasion of vs to be meeke and humble c. tell me in good earnest did Christ at any time obey any of them you speake of in any thing that was ill and was there not a necessity in regard of our redēption to suffer those things which he suffered and as he suffered them at their hands what maketh this then either to binde vs to obey the wicked vngodly proceedings of your Popes and Prelates wherein onely we refuse to listen vnto them or needelesly to suffer those thinges at your hand which lawfully we may auoide And I trust you are perswaded that Christ himselfe that willed others to learne of him to be hūble and meeke that he neuer forgat that lesson himselfe And yet if you reade Mat. 23. and Iohn the 8. you shall finde that he comprising the high Priestes themselues within the compasse of his speech aswell as other his inferiour malitious enemies calleth them hypocrits children of the Deuill c. And the Prophets though they were not to learne of you how to behaue them selues to higher powers yet they did vse often very sharpe and bitter speeches against the Princes and other rulers of their times an example whereof you haue Esay 1.10 in these wordes Heare the word of the Lord O Princes of Sodom hearken to the law of our God O people of Gomorrah But Paul you will say Act. 23. hauing called a wicked high Priest that contrary to law tyrannously had commanded him to be smitten painted wall being admonished thereof corrects himselfe remēbring that it is writē thou shalt not raile or speake ill of the Prince Ex. 22. saying I knew not that he was the high Priest Indeede one of the high Priests clawbacks who are alwaies ready to iustify their master how vniustly soeuer he deale and to controle Gods seruāts for saying neuer so litle amisse of thē though therunto they be neuer so iustly prouoked gaue him a check therefore wherevpon it seemeth that Paul vpon the reason aforesaied excused himselfe but indeede he did it in such sort as that in trueth he giue him a greater blow though somewhat more couertly then he had done before in plainly shewing that that dealing of his considered he knew him not to be the high Priest But if this notwithstanding you thinke still that Paul would not giue any harde speech to such a Prelate and iustifie it when he had done consider a little what reckoning you make of Saint Peter and then call to remembrance what is writen Gal. 2. and you shall finde it cleare that not onely he rebuked Peter openly at Antioch but that also he iustifies that his owne doing therein saying that he did so because he went not with the right foote to the Gospell And learne by these places not to be so dainty ouer your Popes and Prelates hereafter but that if they doe lewdly think it may well stand with that meekenes humility that Christ hath taught vs that they be plainly as they deserue tolde of their doings by vs. It is one thing to rafle of them that be in lawful authority and to backbite and depraue them and another thing it is by way of instruction admonitiō and reprehensiō by plaine iust and true tearms to let them see their faults so it be done in time and place conuenient in maner beseeming such an action This later might the Iewes doe to Nabuchadnezzar notwithstanding Ieremies words and the Christians vnder the heathen Emperours to them and yet both keep within duety and loialty but the former is that which is vnlawful to bee vsed against any how bad soeuer he be that is in place of lawfull magistracy or office Finally whereas you yet thinke scorne that your Pope should bee worse then Nabuchadnezzar and that therefore the Iewes might haue had far more iust exceptions against him to free them frō their obedience and submission to him then we haue to free vs from subiection to your Popes in trueth therein you are very much deceiued For first his authority as a King ouer them was a power in it selfe lawful though abused by him and yours as I haue shewed is flatly vnlawfull and the Iewes were commanded subiection vnto him and we are commanded as I haue saied Reuel 18. to forsake all communion with your Popish Antichristian kingdome Your Popes for lewdnes of life for manifold Idolatries and blasphemies in Religion and for want of right title to the dignity and office which they claime doubtlesse will thorowly match him by how much their knowledge in respect of the meanes they haue which he lackt should be more then his by so much these things in them make them more intolerable then the same could make him And therefore these thinges considered the obedience and submission which the Iews were enioyned to yeeld to Nabuchadnezzar inferreth not the like to be due to your Popes and other your Romish Prelates The XVII Chapter ANy mā may easily perceiue by this discourse that you haue no great reason in saying that that you saie and much lesse to doe that that you preach I meane to begin the reformation of the church by the waie of force the which is a thing contrarie to all lawes diuine and humane which defende * Cod. vt nemo in suâ causâ jud that a This is your dealing flat for your Pope is the party many waies most iustly charged by vs yet he wil be the supreme iudge in his owne cause one should bee Iudge in his owne cause and you will not onelie be a Iudge but a partie resembling in this him that gaue the blowe to Christ vnto whom the answere was made * b Job 15. b Wel hit again 15. for 18. If we haue done ill c This alwaies we are ready to doe proue it before the Iudge seeing that you are our accusers If you saie that God hath giuen you power to knowe to iudge and to exempt that is to saie to driue vs out of our possession and to cause the people to forsake that Religion which they haue maintained d It is a shame to repeate this bragge so often and neuer to go about in all your booke once to proue it which you know is the maine question these 1500. yeares vpwards shew vs your commission with as sure a warrant as so great a matter doeth require seeing that you saie that ye are sent extraordinarilie as Moses was to redeem the childrē of Israell out of the captiuity of Egypt that is to say according vnto your interpretatiō the children of God the true faithful out of the false Religion of the Papists of that which the Pope Antichrist worse thē Pharao is the head master Thus ye vse to expoūd moralizate the figures of the olde Testament in fauour of the Catholicke Church yet is it so that when God spake vnto you about so zealous a thing as this yee
saluation Act. 4. and that none are to be called vpon in whom we beleeue not Rom. 10. you teach vs to beleeue in many thinges and persons besides the Trinity so to be apostataes from our creede forme of baptism And besides whiles you teach vs this doctrine of inuocatiō of saints and Angels cōtrary both to the beginning and ende of the Lords praier you also teach vs to pray vnto them to whō we may neither begin nor ende our praier as thereby we are taught And therefore you dealing with vs in these pointes and diuerse others being so grosse as it is and was if we had had no better warrant to receiue these partes of the Catechisme then your worde we should haue had small courage to haue receiued them as from you But Caluin Beza and other of our famous ministers in the teeth with hauing their education and maintenance at their bookes first with you comparing them in that now they set themselues against your corruptions vnto Camels with reward their masters for their good keeping with yerking and biting Whereas in trueth if you had grace to see it they could no way shew themselues more thankefull vnto you for the same then by carefull and diligent labouring your conuersion and reformation as they haue done S. Paul you know was brought vp at the feete of Gamaliel a notable Pharisee was himselfe at the first by profession a Pharisee and so had his educatiō and maintenance at the first amongst such what then will you resemble him to your yerking Camels because after when it pleased God to open his eies and to conuert him to Christ hee preached and wrote against the errours of the Pharises laboured their reformation why should you then euen for imitating of S. Paul thus vnmanerly compare these men or any other whom it shall please God to stirre vp in like maner to seeke your good Still you call our Religiō new deuises now further you adde that though it haue beene in times past yet it was buried in the very depth of hell we haue raised it vp againe giuen it new colours All this cannot make vs ashamed of the Gospell of Christ which we know to be the power of God to saluatiō to euery one that beleeueth to the Iewe first also to the Greciā Rom. 1.16 For these are but bare words how spitefull malitious soeuer and we know that when it was preached by Christ himselfe and his Apostles it had as hard sentence oft giuen of it by the superstitious and blind Scribes and Pharises and yet for all that it mightily preuailed then and so doeth and will now Yet it is well that in some sorte now you will confesse it hath beene before for very confidētly before in your 4. chapter you set downe that none of vs cā deny but the Luther 1517. began it first but as you did well in this and spoke truely so in adding that it was yet buried c. you speake not onely malitiously and blasphemously as one day though I feare to late you shall be driuē to see but also vntruely For you cannot be ignorant but as it was before Luthers time professed and taught by Petrus Valdus Iohn Wickliffe Iohn Hus so therein they had their followers in Bohemia Calabria Angronia diuers other places and that in great nūbers euen vnto Luthers time and lōg after And as for colours we vse none to countenance this trueth but the natiue naturall colours which the scriptures allow it for we thinke it most sincerely preached when it is most simply set forth onely in these colours other colours we leaue to you to decke vp the garish whore of Babylō withall At last so earnest a procter or crier are you for miracles that you are contented to ioine with vs vpon this point that though our doctrine were not new but very old yet we must ought to confirme it by miracles And this you labour to proue because the doctrine that Moses the Apostles were sent to preach was not new but old yet they were furnished with power to worke miracles to cōfirme that old ancient doctrine For Moses wrought his miracles you say especially to this ende the Gods name might be knowen ouer all the earth that is to say that men should know that he is God the Apostles as you say at their first preaching preached not Iesus Christ vnto the Gētils but that there was but one God which by a number of testimonies you labour to proue was no new doctrin to the heathen Painims but a thing which by the light of nature left in them and by the view of Gods works many of them atteined vnto all might in such sort as that they are without excuse for that they worshipped not God as God This is I confesse directly to the matter and some shew these things cary I graunt of proofe of that which you toke in hande thereby to proue But if we examine well those things and weigh the weight of this argument wee shall finde small or rather no force at all therein to proue indeede the thing intended thereby For though God saie Exod. 9. not 19. as your quotation is that for this cause hee had set Pharaoh vp to shew his power in him and to declare his name throughout the whole world as in working of all miracles at all times that is an especiall ende that the Lord hath And though that bee no newe doctrine that hee is God and but one and that both Moses and the Apostles taught this yet this proueth not but that otherwise both Moses and they had newe and strange matters giuen them in commission for confirmation and effecting whereof it was necessarie for them to worke miracles For Moses especially was called and appointed by God as it appeareth Exod. 3.4 and 5. Chapters to this ende to signifie vnto Pharaoh that it was the pleasure of God that he should dismisse his people Which because the Lord had purposed notwithstanding the harde heart of Pharaoh to bring to passe therefore Moses was by his direction to worke the miracles hee wrought So that the next ende of working of them was to confirme this his newe and strange message to Pharaoh and to cause it to take place though therein the Lord had another further ende namely thereby to get himselfe a name for euer So in like maner though the Apostles preached the God that made heauen earth to be the only true God as it appeareth they did Act. 14. 17. which was no new doctrine indeede in it selfe considered yet it appeareth in the same places that it was newe there For in the one place they worshipped Iupiter and Mercurie for Gods and in the other an vnknowen God And besides it is euident that not onely their office was extraordinarie in that immediately they had their calling frō God and their charge without limitation but also
gentiles namely to Augustus Cesar which profes though they were granted to be of sufficient force to proue that the gentiles had thereby some knowledge of the cōming maner of cōming office of such a Messias yet they proue not but that it was notwithstāding a thing newe and not vnderstoode to most of thē neither doe they at all proue but that still the doctrine concerning the particuler person of that Messias namely that Iesus the sonne of the virgin Mary whom the Iewes crucified was he no other was a new doctrine both to Iew and gentile and therefore in that respect it was necessary for the Apostles for all these thinges to confirme that by miracle whereas now amongst vs that beare any waie the name of Christians that doctrine is not newe neither anie thing else that wee preach but to those to whom the ancient doctrine taught in the Scriptures is newe and therefore as yet there remaineth cause sufficient why the Apostles should worke miracles and not wee This also I cannot but tell you of that howsoeuer the Sybilles are reported to haue prophecied of Christ your comparison is verie odious when you saie they did it as fully and as plainelie as anie of the Prophets and that you wrong Augustine too too much in making your Reader beleeue that hee either in the place quoted by you or anie where else ioyneth with you in that malaperte comparison But these comparisons of yours argue the profanenesse of the spirite that directeth your pennes The XX. Chapter THVS you see that Iesus Christ was anounced among the Gentiles before the comming of the Apostles who notwithstanding this did not let to set forth the doctrine that they were sent to preach vvith manie notable miracles although they did not teach but that doctrine that was verie ancient And although that their doctrine vvas newe and vnknowen to the Gentiles yet you cannot alleadge that it vvas so a Yes it is evident that the true doctrine both of his person and office was new and strange vnto thē vnto the Iewes for they beeing studied and learned in Moses lawe they hearde nothing of the Apostles but had beene prophecied by the Prophets Doeth not Saint Paul saie at the beginning of his Epistle to the Romanes that hee was seperated to preach the Gospell the which God promised by the holie Scriptures * Act. 3. Saint Peter talking with the Iewes doeth giue them plainelie to vnderstande that his vvas no newe doctrine because that hee did preach Iesus Christ of vvhom Moses had prophecied long before saying thus * b Deut. 16. God shall raise a Prophet among your brethren b Deut. 18. you would saie you shall obey him as you doe me and hee that doeth refuse it shal be put to death Saint Peter saieth afterwarde All the Prophets that haue beene from Samuel vnto this time doe announce vnto you these daies that is to saie the doctrine that wee doe preach That that the Apostles did preach vnto the Iewes that is to wit the remission of their sinnes by the death and passion of Christ it was no newe thing for as * Act. 10. Saint Peter saied vnto Cornelius All the Prophets haue vvitnessed that those that beleeue in him shall obtaine remission of their sinnes for it had beene so prophecied by Esay c 53 you should haue saied cap. 55. vnto the people aboue eight hundreth yeares saying that hee had laied vpon his sonne all our iniquities as it doeth appeare in his booke in the vvhich he doeth shew himselfe more an Euangelist then a Prophet for there hee doeth vvrite the tormentes of our Sauiour euen as if hee had beene present at his passion Dauid likewise doeth talke of the like where hee doeth mention the extreame affliction of our Redeemer and of the Gall and Isope and the Vinager Daniel did not onelie discrie the death of our Sauiour but therewithall the verie time that he should come And to bee briefe all the Prophets haue announced vnto the Iewes that that the Apostles did preach vnto them Now if wee desire to knowe why this olde doctrine preached aswell to the Gentiles as to the Iewes by the Apostles was confirmed vvith manie miracles vvhich they did in the name of God vvho sent them the cause is this the Deuill had so obscured and hidden the trueth ouer all nations that superstitious Idolatrie had taken place in steede of the true seruice of God so that the poore Painims did not put their trust in one God but in a multitude of Gods And in like maner the true Religion giuen by God to the Israelites had beene troubled and almost cleane abolished by the traditions of the Scribes and Pharisees in the vvhich they did trust for the iustification and remission of their sinnes d And in your owne consciences you cannot but see we haue iust cause The like doe you report of vs and of your great curtesie yee are contente to match vs vvith the superstitious Iewes and Idolatrous Paynims placing your selues in the degree of the pure Gospellers and the true children of God taking vpon you the succession of the Apostles and calling your congregation the true Catholicke and Apostolical Church This sounds notablie well but seeing that your cause is absolutely to reforme the Church as they did preaching the ancient doctrine of God as they did and dealing with superstitious Idolaters that cleaue more to the traditions of men thē vnto the pure word of God as the Iewes Seing then that our case is reported vnto the similitude of the Iewes and yours to the Apostles and Prophets how comes it to passe that you doe not as they did seeing that you are sent frō one master Why e Because our doctrine being the very same that theirs was their miracles serue sufficiently to confirme it to take away al excuse from them that will not beleeue it to the worldes ende doe ye not make your commission appeare by signes and miracles seeing that God hath euer done the like heretofore when he hath sent the like Commission to yours The XX. Chapter I haue shewed you my reason in the former Chapter why you must stay for all your premises from the conclusion that you beginne withall in this For howsoeuer some few of them thē heard in some sort that such a Messias either should come or was come yet the particuler person who that same was was first preached by the Angel Gabriel secondly by Zacharie and Elizabeth his wyfe Luke 1. before he was borne then by the Angels to the shepheards the day of his birth after by Simeon and Anna Iohn Baptist the Apostles of Christ and the rest as it followeth set downe in the story Luke 2. c. But you say yet further that though their doctrine concerning Iesus Christ the Messias was vnknowen to the Gentiles yet it was not so to the Iewes for the Apostles preached nothing but that which
accounted amongst vs a soūd preacher of the gospell hath either sayed that thus hee ought to be receaued to preach the gospell or hath attempted so to doe For it is generally held and receiued of al the Churches that professe the gospell and so lykewise is their vniforme practise that none be suffered to take vpō them to preach the gospel vnlesse it be knowen and sufficiently appeare that by the ordinary calling of some according to the order of the Church where hee is ordered he be sufficiently authorished so to doe And wel knowen it is that there is no Church that professes the Gospel indeed but the order thereof is that none meddle in the ministry therein without commissiō as it pleaseth you to speake either from some conueniēt number of pastours or from some bishop or from both by the order of that church appointed to looke to and to take care of that busines As for the Anabaptists a captaine whereof you named in the former Chapter we know that in their fantastical spirit they both hold and practise as here you charge vs but therin and therfore we dislike condemne them as much as you And you know we renounce communion with them we coūt them heretickes therfore sundry of vs purposely haue writ large and vehement bookes against them you doe vs therfore great wrong to charge vs with that which is their fault which you cānot proue to be ours But you wil say I am sure for in your former Chap. you seeme to deriue Mūcer the Anabaptist his petigree frō Luther that we may worthely so be charged for they are such as spring of and from vs. But herein againe you offer vs as great wrong as the seruants of the good seeds man that sowed only good seed in his field should haue done him if they had saied that the tares that came vp therewith in the same field had beene there sowed by him because when Christ his Apostles and faithfull ministers had first preached the gospel there were foūd in the same age springing vp with the same amongst the professours therof Ebionites Cerinthians Nicolaitans Simonists and sundry other fantastical heretickes as Hymeneus Philetus Hermogines and Phygetus was it any reason therefore that Christ or any of his faithfull ministers or that the gospel it selfe should be charged with their fond cōceits And yet as absurd sencelesse as this kinde of dealing were it is both here with you oft in this your booke vsuall is it with all of your spirit this now for want of better matter against vs by this means with the simple people to labour the discredit and disgrace both of vs our churches and religion But you content not your selfe with falsely charging vs to say that we ought to be receiued to preach the gospel extraordinarily but also you lay to our charge that we seeke still to defend an ill cause and an extraordinary commission This you onely say as your maner is but neither proofe nor shadow of proofe you bring neither indeede can you For our cause is the very trueth and our commission is but that ordinary commission of teaching and confirming the same vnto men that Christ hath left by his owne ordināce to all his faithfull ministers vnto the worlds ende And for proofe hereof we appeale indeede to the holy scriptures which in this case euen for the reason by you alleadged wee are not ashamed to confesse to be the sound touchstone of trueth and to be preferred in credit before miracles Yet you some thing amplifie and adde vnto our speech in that you say we affirme that the scriptures as they are alleadged by vs alone ought to bee of more credit then all the miracles wrought by the Apostles Well this our reason to iustifie our cause and commission you say is a notable way to deceaue the simple and vnlearned I wonder that you were not ashamed and affraied so to write For you cannot be ignorant that to confute errour to proue trueth to exhort to vertue and to dehort from vice Christ and his Apostles and so from time to time the ancient fathers what aduersaries soeuer they had to deale withal vsed alwaies to flie to this touchstone and for the most certaine concluding of their purpose did alleadge scripture but your shift will be that these alleadged the scripture rightly which you speake not of and we alleadge the scripture corruptly and in a wrong sense therefore you would haue your words in all this your discourse against our alleadging of scripture to bee taken as writen not simply against alleadging of scripture but against alleadging it as we doe Then I answer that that you should haue proued that we alleadge the scripture in a wrong sense but this you haue not once gone about only you proue that bare alleadging of scripture cannot nor may not so countenance our cause as we pretēd for that sundry heretickes haue countenanced their heresies by alleadging scripture and that often very plentifully About this you spend sundry Chapters and withall to shew your selfe to be able if you list to be a cunning in wresting of the scriptures as any of the heretickes you mention all which is to no purpose vnles withall you had proued which you shall neuer be able to doe that we alleadging them doe alleadge them so likewise For we are not so simple or ignorāt that we know not that the scripture hath beene and may be misalleadged as you write and therefore we neuer go about to perswade the people that they must and ought to beleeue vs for our bare alleadging of scripture but for that by the sound rules of interpreting of them we proue forcibly and inuincibly vnto their consciences that we alleadge them according to their true and natiue meaning We call vpon them with Christ to search the scriptures themselues Iohn 5 39. and with Paul we exhort them so to trauaile therein as that they may haue the worde of God dwell euen in themselues plentifully in all wisedome Coloss 3.16 that so according to the commended example of the noble men of Baerea Act. 17.11 and the doctrine of S. Iohn they may trie the spirits of them that would seeme to teach them a right before they beleeue them 1. Iohn 4.15 we confesse gladly with Peter 2. Epist cap. 1. 20. 21. that no prophesie nor part of the scripture is of any priuate interpretation and all such interpretations we count and iudge priuate and humane whosoeuer gyues or allowes them that are not indeede soundly agreeing with the minde of the authour of the scripture the holy Ghost And therefore we hold and teach for asmuch as the naturall man vnderstandeth not the thinges of the spirit of God 1. Cor. 1.15 that no man in alleadging and citing of the scripture◠is to trust to his owne wisedome or learning but according to the counsell of S. Iames finding himselfe in this case to lacke wisedome we exhort all men
not thought that he himselfe not onely might but had erred would he euer haue writeÌ„ as he did a booke of RetractioÌ„s or RecaÌ„tatioÌ„s And indeed in his 2 book 4. Chap. ad BonifaciuÌ„ against that 2. Epist of the PelagiaÌ„s it appeareth that he was of opinioÌ„ that of necessity childreÌ„ were to receiue the CoÌ„munion or els they could not be saued because it is writeÌ„ Ioh. 6. Except yee eat the flesh of the sonne of maÌ„ drinke his bloud yee haue no life in you and Pope Innocent and many of the fathers were of the same opinion then And yet I thinke now your selues holde this to bee an errour aswell as wee And who will read his fourth booke de animâ eius origine ad Vincentium and his prologue to his retractions he should there plainlie finde him confesse that there are manie things in his wordes worthilie to bee founde fault withall which he craueth that his reader would not cleaue vnto in any case but rather pardon and follow him non erraÌ„teÌ„ sed in melius proficientem not erring but better profiting Yea in the later place he saieth that he would not arrogate that perfection to himselfe then being old much lesse when hee was young not to erre And I thinke that you are not ignorant that Irenaeus and Papias were plaine Millenaries and that Cyprian a nuÌ„ber of bishops in his time in Affricke held in councel decreed that rebaptizatioÌ„ of those that had bene baptized by hereticks which both you and we count errors notwithstanding now Why therefore especially when the names and titles of councels or men are vrged to the preiudice of the trueth taught in the scriptures may we not say that which is true that they both might haue erred And thus you haue your answere first generally to your principall scope in these 4. or 5. last Chapters set downe togither because the drift of them was but al one and now also a further answere to the rest of the matters and words therein here and there scattered But yet you haue not quite done with this matter let vs therefore further follow you to see if you haue said any more to the purpose in that which is behinde then in that which we haue heard already The XXVII Chapter I Pray Syrs since you are so absolute answere me to this obiection a A vaine questioÌ„ for whoeuer of vs either saied or wrote so is it good to beleeue almaner of people that doe alleage the Scriptures or not If ye say yea why doe not you beleeue the aboue named Valentinus Apollinaris Hebion Cherintus and Nestorius with diuers others that haue sought to maintaine their errours with the new olde Testament If you saie no but that we ought rather to follow the counsell of S. Iohn in his first Epistle cap. 4. The which is not to beleeue euery spirit but that we ought to proue whether it be of God or no b Our proofe is that our senâ—e wherein we alleage them stands with the rest of the scriptures is according to the analogy of faith and good maners receiued to be the sence of ancient time and from time to time amongst the sound teachers in the Church What proofe wil you shew vs of yours Shewe the priuiledge that you haue by the vvhich God dieth enioine vs to beleeue your Gospel rather the the Gospell of the Pelagians Nouatians Nestorians and other such false Apostles considering that they haue alleaged the Scriptures aswel as you If you saie that they were heretickes abusers of the people and rauishing wolues cloathed in lambes skins and false interpreters of the Scriptures all this is certaine a The more haue they to answere for that report so for they can neuer proue it to be so But vvhat though the like report goeth of you Ye say that ye are sent from Cod to reforme the Church They saie as much b Which of hem I pray you seeing they liued before the B. of Rome beâ—ame Antichrist They preached that the Pope vvas Antichrist c Yea but the Church of Rome then and now are not al one shevving themselues verie eloquent in detracting and rayling against the Catholicke Roman Church you doe the like d You say so but you â—ay more then you can proue At euerie vvord they did alleage the Scriptures in their Sermons to confirme their doctrine as you doe for yours That that they preached was called by them the Gospel the pure vvorde of the Lord these are the verie tearmes that you vse among your holie prophetes they haue beene condemned as heretiques by the generall Councels e Not yet by any lawful and f ee geneâ—al councel was euer our religioÌ„ or any point of it condemned you are so likewise They did appeale vnto the pure vvord of God you doe the like Yet are they proued to be false f This iâ— flat dogs eloquence cogging knaues and so shal you Then seeing there is so great an vniformitie betvveene you vpon vvhat grounde g Vpon this that we are able to iustifie our alleaging of them to to be sound and catholicke which they are not shall vvee confirme that reason that shoulde condemne them as heretiques allow you for Catholicks h This question is rather meete to be proposed to you who haue learned of the Donatists to tye the Church to your popes sleue and to shut it vp within the narrow limits of his dominion S. Augustine in his Epistle 161. did put vnto a Donatist called Honoratus this probleme We desire thee not to thinke it much to answere vs to this what cause doest thou know or what thing hath there beene done that hath made Chirst loose his inheritance spred ouer all the world to coÌ„e to be contained onely in Affricke there onelie to remaine We put the like question to i Though your popish Church hath bene none of his â—nheritaÌ„ce a good while yet he hath had his inheritance alwaies and euer will haue and this we hold and teach and therefore your question is vâ—iâ—e friuolous and flaâ—â—eâ—ous Caluin Beza Viret the rest that it may please theÌ„ to tel vs if that by chauÌ„ce they haue bene aduertised through what occasion our Sauiour Christ hath lost his inheritaunce that is to say the Church spread ouer all the world to remaine now in the later daies with a coÌ„panie of rude Swizers or in two or three corners besides not among the rest for there is a great number of good Catholickes what badge caÌ„ you shew or what signe to make vs know that you are the successours of the Apostles of Christ If that the Scriptures that you alleage ought to be a sufficient proofe we are content to accept it k There as no need that we should doe so because we can proue that we alleadge them soundly they falsely corruptly if you will be content to grant
these should come these haue beene and will be for the triall who they be indeede that thirst after the trueth and will cleaue vnto it But in taking this contrary way whatsoeuer you say not wee but you leade men and that with a strong hand to Atheisme And so much the more folly you shew in making these collections of yours of these controuersies amongst vs seeing amongst your selues i◠were an easie matter to put you in remembrance of a number as hoat and feircely followed contentions as this yet euer was amōgst vs. Some thing to make this appeare I haue noted Chapter the 4. but seeing you haue neuer done with this obiection the better to make your vanity therin appeare let the reader further vnderstand that your Popes themselues amongst themselues one against another haue further proceeded in malitious contention then euer the Lutherans or Protestāts did For as Platina writeth when Pope long after him for Boniface the 6. his immediate successour was Pope but 25. daies caried such hatred towards him and his proceedings that he caused his decrees to be abrogated and as other Historiographers write of him he caused him to be taken out of his graue and solemnly to be in a councel disgraded which when he had done therewith not content he cut of his two fingers that he vsed to consecrate withall and cast them into the riuer Tibris But Romanus the first succeeding him ratified againe Formosus doings and abrogated and disanulled all Stephens proceedings against him Whose course Theodorus the 2 and especially Iohn the 10 followed in iustifying and condemning Stephens doinges against him in another councel at Rauenna consisting of seuenty foure bishops Howbeit Sergius the 3. the 4 Pope after taketh Stephens part against Formosus and that so hoatly as that once againe though he were the ninth Pope from Formosus he causeth his body to be taken vp out of his graue disgradeth him againe beheadeth him cutteth of the 3 fingers that were left him of his right hand and threw his body and the peeces thereof despitefully into Tyber About the yeare 1354 as Godfridus de Fontanis writeth there grew and burst out marueilous hoate contentions betwixt the Friers of Dominicke and Francis in Fraunce about their priuiledges and the prelates of France and the Schollers of Paris insomuch that there were publicke and bitter Sermons made by one against another the one side excommunicated another And Matth. Paris reporteth that there was by the prelates of France and the doctours of Paris nine erronious conclusions which by his report were of matters of great weight in religion laied to the charge of the Gray-friers for the which they excommunicated them and for which there was hoat stirre on both sides About the yeare 1470. there was a notorious contention also betwixt the Dominicke friers and the Minorites the one side following Scotus and the other Aquinas whither Mary was conceiued in originall sinne or no the Minorites with Scotus holding the negatiue and the other with Aquinas the affirmatiue which in the yeare 1509 grew so great that it troubled and deuided al these Westerne partes of the world notwithstanding that Pope Sixtus the 4 had giuen out his bull in the yeare 1576. on the Minorites side Insomuch that some of the Dominicke friers were burned at Berne for their deuises to maintaine their faction as witnesseth both Pencer and Munster And who knoweth not of the 24. great schismes at least which haue bene in the Romish Church during which times some of them lasting verie long their Church was torne into so many factions as there were Popes and antipopes Amongst which factions and their heads there grewe sometimes warres indeed and when they were quietest railing processes and excommunications one of them against the other in most bitter maner as the stories of those times doe testifie were vsual amongst them But what should I rūne any further into this matter Seeing it is a thing most certaine and whereof no man can be ignorant that hath taken any paine in reading Stories that the Church of Rome for all her brag of vnitie these late yeares hath beene so ful of hoate and fierie contentions as that neuer a country neuer an order neuer a Cloister or Church amongst them but it hath had most tumultuous contentions at one time or other both within themselues and with others And therefore if this contention amongst vs be cause sufficient of such conclusions and dangerous consequents as you set downe in this chapter what my all these bee which we know haue bene amongst you and of like whereunto we know your Church is yet ful And that more is certain it is that howsoeuer cōfidently you write that there haue bene excommunications betwixt the Caluinists and the Lutherans one against another about this matter though with griefe we must confesse that it may be that both partes haue exceeded their bounds but to far you make here a greater shew of it thē there is iust cause For whatsoeuer certaine of the Lutherans as you tearme them haue done in excommunicating the other yet I thinke you can neuer proue that Caluin or any of his iudgement in this point haue proceeded to far against any of them But if they had why should this seeme so straunge a thing vnto you For you know I am sure that Victor once bishop of Rome did excommunicate certaine bishops in his time of the east Church because they would not ioyne with him and the west Church in the time of obseruing Easter And that Stephanus another bishop of Rome went as far against Cyprian for his opinion of rebaptizing you cannot be ignorant Againe you know that there are but few of the Lutherans that pursue this controuersie so hoately the greater part being contented to deale in it more brotherly and quietly and that the hoatest of them also haue beene so thorowly answered to all their obiections as that there beginneth to be greater hope of vnity herein ere it be long then you well like of or then shal come to passe indeed if you can let it But alas though it hath bene far more especially of the one side then any waie can be iustified yet what hath bene their bitternes and heat of either side at any time to be compared with the bannings and cursings fightings and brawlings murderings manglings and all barbarous extremities that the malitious and spiteful heart of man can deuise that haue beene amongst your most holy fathers the Popes of Rome themselues and their fauourers followers at sundry times and for many yeares togither Howsoeuer as long as both parts agree in the fundamental pointes of Christiā religion and in the other most necessary and fruitful documents concerning this sacrament as clearely appeareth by a booke lately set forth of the Harmony of our confessions and the controuersie lieth onely about the maner of the reall presence and eating with the mouth which mouth-eating as all sides confesse may bee and
that it is possible that such filthy heretiques as Seruetus was may shewe themselues stout in dying But what is all this to proue that our martyrs haue broken the vnion of the Catholique Church or that they died as heretiques for heresie Before you can say any thing to the purpose either to proue them no true martyrs or to blemish their patience you should haue proued that their cause and religion for which they died was not the sound Christian trueth and faith but that you wil neuer bee able to doe And therefore both al this and what els you haue noted though falsely for there is no such thing in either of these two places out of Augustine contra Epistolam Petiliani of the Donatistes forwardnesse to die and out of Cyprians first booke of Epistles falleth downe to the ground as needles besides the questiō For whatsoeuer they there spake they spake it of heretickes therfore it hath no force against vs vntil you can proue vs so in alleadging Cypriās testimony by the way of parēthesis you say we know of what Church hee spake when hee sayed the heretiques that hee wrote of could not bee saued because they separated themselues from the Church the house of peace Indeed wee knowe that hee ment not your Church which is a bloudie house a house of warre cōtentiō a house of error superstitiō but the Church of Christ that was in his time to with yours is not so like as a drunken man is to a sober discreet man or a whore vnto an honest matrone for there is likelihood in substāce though not in quality yours is vnlike to the Church then in both Zischa you cal a martial minister of the Heborites or Hussites you would say or at least I am sure you should say a noble martiall Captaine for minister he was none of them whom their malitious enimies nickenamed Thaborites or Hussites for so they were called not as you call them At your pleasure you call Michael Seruet Caluins dearling but you cānot proue that he was euer in any such accoūt with Caluin why you should tearme him so But yet if he had beene so thorow his cunning in dissembling his heresie for a time the more commendation was it to Caluin that when he proued an obstinate heretique hee was so earnest and zealous in the cause of his God that all former affection set a part he furthered his due punishment as he did And for al your speech of his willingnes to die at Geneua and great patience in dying I cannot read but that he shunned death there as much as he could keeping or holding still his heresie and that thousands haue died on the gallowes for murder felonie and treason with as great shew of courage and patience as he But to let these things passe and to returne againe to your principall drifte in this which was as you shewe in the beginning of it to proue that neither our vocation nor religion could get any credit by the inuincible patience of our holy martyrs what hath bene saied as yet to proue this Your onely argument hitherto hath beene this The cause that a man dyeth for must bee good and hee must bee no heretique many heretiques haue dyed with great shew of patience Ergo c. This argument is starke naught for al these things in your antecedent may be graunted and yet of al them togither your conclusion followeth not These thinges which are not at al in question you haue proued but this that indeed should haue giuē life to your argument that ours died in and for an ill cause were heretiques which is indeede the thing onely in question like a wise man because you could not proue it you let alone But therfore you shall be contented for al your miserable crauing of it to bee granted you to be denied both it and your conclusion which without it you can neuer come vnto You will therefore proue as you make your reader beleeue that our Martyrs were such as died in an ill cause as heretiques and therefore went to hel But what be your proofes Ioachim Westphalus a Lutheran in a worke of his but it seemeth either you could not or would not tel vs in what worke for some politique reason you had doubtles mocked at Caluin for vaūting but where he made this vaunt or where we may finde it you tel vs not that within fiue yeares aboue an hundred had died for the religion of Geneua prouing vnto him that seeing there had beene far moe of the Anabaptistes put to death in lesse space and that the Deuill had his Martyrs his religion was no whit confirmed or countenanced by his Martyrs but they might for all his bragge be in the vauntgard of the Deuils martyrs What a miserable argument is this A contentious man in the heat of his contention saied thus to disgrace his aduersary and his side therefore therupon it shall follow that it was well and truely saied of him I thinke you will grāt me that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were good men both yet in heat of contention one against another Epiphanius burst out into such choler as he saied that he hoped the other should neuer die bishop to whō Chrysostōe answered as angerly again that he trusted the other should neuer returne aliue into his own cuntrey of Cypres infinite be the examples whereby we may see that men otherwise haue in heate of contention marueylously ouershot themselues one against another And therefore God forbid that vpon euery speach of disgrace vttered in such a case by one against another should by and by a firme argument be gathered that it is euen so as the one hath saied of the other But you will say you stād not so much vpō his speach against Caluins Martyrs as vpō that that there were mo of the Anabaptists that had died in a shorter space then he talked of and that otherwise the deuil hath had his martyrs which we cānot deny Hereupon indeed it followeth that an argument drawen to iustifie an opinion and the followers of it from the bare death and shew of patience of them that hold it is not good but so did neuer any of vs reason For first we labour to proue the cause good and that done then in the patience of such as haue died in so good cause togither with the cause we take comfort And yet in trueth we are sure we may speak it to the glory of God there were neuer either so many or any that so patiently died for any other opinion or opinions whatsoeuer as first and last died for the testimony of our religion For we account all them ours that haue from the beginning died for the glorious cause of the Gospell of Iesus Christ and in that we are able by the Scriptures to proue our religion to be the same we are sure we are not deceiued in our account In the conclusion of this Chapter to
againe I require the voice of the sheepheard read me this matter out of the Prophets read it out of the Psalms read it out of the law read it out of the Gospel read it out of the Apostles writings in his book de pastoribus c. 14. and so likewise conclude with him I owe my consent without gainsaying onely vnto the canonicall scriptures .. cap. 61. de naturâ gratiâ and according to these bookes of the scriptures we haue learned of him to iudge freely of all other writings lib. 2 cap. 29. contra Cresconium The fathers are full of such places whereby any man may see that by their very good leaue we are not to be pressed to beleeue or receaue any thing not taught in the scriptures vpon their bare authority and therefore these and such like places in them considered if you would haue had their names the places you cite in them to haue in sadnes bred any sound credit to any of these foure points you alleadge them for either should you haue warraÌ„ted them by good proofe out of the scriptures your selfe or haue shewed vs how they proued them consonant at the least to the same Howbeit because you shall not abuse the Reader to make him thinke that the fathers you name for these matters are further of your opinion then they be indeede as I haue not refused to examine your opinion and the places you send vs vnto for your ceremonies so will I for the Christian readers sake take the paines to deale with you for in al your other 3 opinions of confession praier to Saints for the dead with it your seueral quotations set down for the proofe of the same To go on therefore according to my course begun for confession before the receiuing of the sacrameÌ„t you saie first our sauiour Christ doeth teach vs that the ecclesiasticall ministers haue authority to binde and to forgiue sins and for proofe hereof you set in your margent Iohn 20. Mat. 16. I am sure here by confession that you speake of you meane your auricular confession wherof your Tridentine councel taketh such care that that in the 6 7 and 8 Canon thereof touching this matter it solemnely anathematizeth al those that hold auricular confession not to be necessary to saluation by the law of God saying that it is but the deuise of man Which they there haue defined to be a secret reckoning vp vnto the priest of al mortal sins at the least with al their circumstances whereof by due premeditation the party can haue any remembrance whereunto they bind all persons aboue certaine yeares of both sexes at least once in the yeare and that namely in lent before their receiuing at Easter Now this confession your schoolmen and doctours do teach must be made so fullie and exactly that no sin nor circumstance thereof must be coÌ„cealed for then therby al the labour is lost and the absolutioÌ„ frustrated from al the rest Which doctrine cannot chuse but a number of waies proue a needles and a desperate tormenting of coÌ„scieÌ„ces For first it laieth vpoÌ„ them an ineuitable necessity not onelie to doe that which God neuer required at their hands but also that which either is simply impossible vnto theÌ„ to doe for the multitude of their sins and circumstances thereof or else impossible for them to doe in such maner as that they can satisfie themselues that they haue omitted no piece of due premeditation to call all their sins the circuÌ„stances thereof that they should coÌ„fesse to their remeÌ„braÌ„ce which a nuÌ„ber of your owne side most deuoutly giueÌ„ to doe this in the best maner haue bene enforced to confesse Yet this confession before the sacrament though indeed it bee a thing that hath no ground or warrant at all in the Scriptures but was as both Iohannes Scotus libro 4. sententiarum Distict 17. art 3. and Anton part 3. histatit 19 doe confesse first imposed as necessary by the Lateran councel in InnoceÌ„t the thirds time about the year of the Lord one thousand 2 hundred and fifteene you here would seeme to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce by two places of scripture co begin withal But your betters haue thought otherwise of this your kinde of confession For your glosse de paenitentiâ Distinct 5. Cap. in principio confesses plainely that it came in rather by some tradition then either by authority of the olde testament or new which tradition he saieth yet ought to binde the West Church to vse it though not the Greekes East Church which haue it not And Beatus Rhenanus in his notes vpon Tertullians booke of repentance forasmuch as hee findeth not therein anie mention hereof not onely gathered that it was not in vse then but also hee sheweth that he thought it came in after grew of the mislike of the inconueniences of the continuance of publicke confessions made in the publicke assembly in the hearing of al the congregation vsed seuerally in the former times And Soto coÌ„tra BreÌ„tiuÌ„ reckoneth vp both your other two points following of praying to Saints and for the dead this also amongst the things grouÌ„ded but vpon the vnwriten word or tradition You had therefore delt both more wisely and more simply honestly if of these and such other great Rabbins of your side you had learned to fetch the ground of this your confession from any where els rather then from the scriptures But seeing you will seeme to haue found that ground for it there which they could not let vs a little consider how fâ—ly now the places you quote serue your turne You meane I am sure both by your words and quotations that Christs doing and saying to his Apostles set downe by Matthew John in the places you quote in these words to thee speaking namely in the first place to Peter I wil giue the keies of the kingdoÌ„e of heaueÌ„ whatsoeuer thou shalt binde in earth shal be bound in heauen whatsoeuer thou loosest in earth shal be loosed in heaueÌ„ And in the other he breathed vpoÌ„ theÌ„ and saied receiue yee the holy Ghost whose sins yee remit they are remitted whose sins yee retaine they are retained Wherby indeed it is euident that our Sauiour first promised to Peter in the name of al the rest after gaue to al his faithful Apostles first the gift of the holy Ghost and then power and authority to vse the â—eies of the kingdome of heauen to binde and loose and to remit retaine sinnes which power and authority they most faithfully and effectually vsed whiles faithfully they preached saluation to the peniteÌ„t beleeuer and denouÌ„ced damnation to the impenitent vnbeleeuers with all duety as they saw cause vsing the censures of the Church of admonition rebuking suspending and excommunicating though they were neuer acquainted with your auricular confession And likewise the same power is exercised by the Lords faithfull ministers in his church still not by the helpe of your
brother Caesarius oratione septima Ambrose for Valentian de obitu Valentiniani And for Theodosius de obitu eius and Augustine for his mother lib. confess 9. Cap. 13. Yea as William of Westminster reports in his story thus Charles the great about 800. years after Christ wrote to one Offa king here of Mercta to desire him that praiers might bee made for Pope Adrian nullam habētes dubitationem beatā illius animam esse in requie sed vt fidem dilectionem ostendamus in amicum nobis charissimum not doubting saieth he but that his blessed soule is in rest but to declare our faith and loue towardes our most deare frend Wherein they did as if a tender tutor ouer his pupill though hee knowe the childes parentes of themselues will more carefully and tenderly looke to their childe comming home vnto them from the vniuersity then euer hee did or coulde yet writing vnto them to shewe his loue towardes his scholler shoulde desire them to vse him louinglie and kindely Howsoeuer it cannot be denyed but that this was somewhat more then needed and was some occasion of further proceeding from step to step vntill there were too too playne groundes layed of popish kinde of praying for the dead yet euery man most easily may espie that this kinde of praying for the dead can neuer kindle either the fire of popish purgatory or iustifie their kinde of praying to relieue soules there Indeed it should seeme by Aerius his opposing himselfe against praying for the dead as it appeareth in Epiphanius hee did some by that time mistaking these kindes of praying for them that I haue spoken of and stretching the examples thereof further then they should at least as Aerius vnderstood them tooke vpon them so to pray for the dead that howsoeuer a man liued and died yet after he was gone by the prayers of his frendes it was thought that he should doe wel inough Against which kinde of praying for them he inueigheth as against the bane of all godlinesse and religion but herein by Epiphanius it appeareth he faulted that this being but either the opinion of the ignorant multitude or his owne onely misconstruing the Churches fashiō in remembring of the dead in their praiers or praiing for them he slanderously laied that to the charge of the Church Epiphanius therefore in answering of him laieth this downe for the ground of all the rest that those whō the Church praied for were with the Lord in rest and ioie which flatly sheweth that the Churches praying for the dead that he pleads for against Aerius maketh nothing for the popish praying for them or for purgatory But vpon this occasion AErius vrging this question whither the praiers of men aliue did profit the dead and if they did whither so far as that thereby they were deliuered from al their sinnes thereunto Epiphanius both belike quite to condemne the opinion of the ignorant multitude yet loth also to defend that which he could not iustifie first answereth onely that the praiers made for thē were profitable thē that yet not so profitable as that therby al their sinnes were done away but neither doeth he simply and plainely answere that they were profitable to the dead themselues nor once take vpō him to aduouch that thereby some certaine sinnes may be put away but subtlely leauing these things thus in suspense he flyeth to other causes and reasons why they are profitable And the causes and reasons set downe by him are these first thereby comfortably their frends aliue are occasioned to beleeue that they that are dead are not perished but aliue with the Lord secondly that thereby may be nourished in the that liue this hope that the soules of thē that are so dead are as pilgrimes gone out of their bodies to be with the Lord and thirdly that by praying so euen for the best as for patriarches prophets Apostles and martyrs it may bee acknowledged that the best were offēders that so Christ alone may haue that preheminence to be a man without sinne that so all may see what neede they haue of Christ The very like reasons to these are yeelded by him that beareth the name of Dionysius the Ariopagite of the solemne prayers and solemnities remembred by him at the buriall of the dead cap. 7. Eccles Hierarchiae where of them that die he maketh but two sortes holy and prophane placing the holy company all of them aswell the imperfecter sort as the most perfect in blessed state in their soules immediately vpon their deathes and the other in woe and eternall misery And yet he alloweth not onely for the former sort thankesgiuing but also prayers to be made vnto God that for Christs sake their sinnes may be forgiuen them for the comfort and commonifaction of them that are aliue as Epiphanius did So that though in this case it be vsuall with the Papists to make great bragges of Epiphanius and this Demus yet if they bee thorowly looked into they are more against them then with them The like may be saied of the rest of the auncient fathers whom they most make shewe of in this point for howsoeuer some of them maie seeme to come somewhat too neare them in seeming in some sort to imagine that some good may growe to the departed towards the easing of them of some of their sinnes by the prayers of the faithfull for them after they be gone hence as it cannot bee denied but that Chrysostome Augustine and some others haue thought yet that they either placed all that they prayed for to haue any of their sinnes forgiuen thē in purgatorie or that they thought that soules so tormented there for sinnes vnsatisfied for here might thereby bee freed from their sinnes not fully pardoned them ere they went hence they shall neuer bee able to proue And yet these are the thinges that they must proue or else their maner of praying for the dead is left vnproued For with one voice euen they that otherwise seeme most to fauour them in this point holde that there is no purgation or clensing from sinne but onely in the bloud of Christ that here pardon of sinnes is to bee obtained or neuer and that after this life ended there is no bettering or altering the state of the departed before the last iudgement all which are positions whereof euery one is sufficient to quench the fire of the Popish purgatorie and to ouerthrowe their ende of praying for the dead For proofe whereof let vs but cōsider of these speeches and sayings of theirs amōgst an infinite nūber of like force vttered by thē The authour of those tracts of Iob commonly fathered of Origen from whence often they would seeme in this case to haue great furniture descrybing the fashion of the church in his time saieth in the third tract or booke we celebrate not the day of our natiuity seeing it is the entrance into sorrowe temptation but the day of our death as the very laying
contrariety betwixt the saied two bookes themselues by the authours crauing to be borne withall and by his seeming to iustify in those bookes cōtrary to the Canonicall scriptures indeede sundry things Secondly let any mā read 1. Mach. 7. 12. the 2.4.3 and 13. and he shall thereby most plainely see that in those times whereof those bookes containe the story there were wonderfull grosse corruptions directly contrary to the lawe of God crept in amongst the Iewes from the Gentiles and yet securely practised of them Thirdly this is to be considered that neither Iosephus writing the whole story of the Machabees nor yet the fift Chapter of the first booke where the same story is handled maketh any mention of this fact of Iudas Fourthly if we looke to his fact indeede as the authour setteth it forth in Greeke we shall finde that the trueth thereof was and is onely this that he finding two thousand slaine that tooke vpon them of their owne heads to fight with the Iannites without commandement of their Captaine of an ambitious minde to get themselues a name that vnder their garments they had things hid consecrated to the Gods of the Iannites euery man then seeing that that was the cause they were slaine therupon first hauing called his people together he exhorted them by that example to keepe themselues from sinne and to giue glory to the Lord for his righteous iudgement executed vpon them and to pray that the rest perished not for that their sinne be like hauing in remembrance the story of Achan Iosua 6. And this thus according to his exhortation done he made a collectiō of two thousand drachmaes sent them to Hierusalem to offer a sinne offering which if he did to appease the Lordes wrath that it should not burst out to the hurt of the rest as it did against the Israelites at the besiege of Ai Iosua the seuēth for the like sinne in Achan as it may be hee did hitherto hee did but well and with warrant from the twenty one of Deutronomie and seuenth of Iosua but here he staied not but as it appeareth by the authours owne wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 discoursing with himselfe of the resurrection hee prayed for the dead and sought to make reconciliation for their sinne that so they might haue their part in the resurrection of the godlie for whom very godly hee thought that there was great hope layed vp But if hee had remembred that hee had neither commandemēt example nor promise in Gods booke thus to encourage him to doe and that the Lord had saied You shall not doe euerie one that which seemeth good in his owne eies but that which I commaund thee that onely doe thou shalt adde nothing thereunto nor take ought there from Deut 12. he should not haue followed his owne discourse imagination thus to haue done without all warrāt from the word of the Lorde In many places of the olde testament he might haue remembred that of purpose the solemnity of burials are spokē of yet that neuer there is any mention either of any such thing cōmanded there to be done or remēbred to haue beene done yea that Tobias the elder though there be much saied of him to his commendation in burial of the dead in his history that yet there is not any mention of any such thing done by him And it is worth the noting that from the time of Iudas Machabeus it cānot be proued by any story after vntil now of very late daies that any such thing was by any godly man attempted againe Further yet how can this serue to breed any credit to popish praying or sacrificing for the dead in purgatory seeing the papists thēselues confesse that there was no purgatory before the comming of Christ that they that die in deadly sinne as it appeareth by the story these did go not at all thither but streight to hell Lastly for any thing I can see in the authours words thorowly considered it may be saied for his credit that he sheweth that Iudas Machabeus did thus that he did very well honestly to thinke hope of the resurrection very godly to be perswaded that then it should be very well with those that died godly but that vpon these cogitations he did thus for these he doeth not at all iustifie him but rather shew that therein he followed his owne reason and discourse And this being thus all the strength of this place is lost For an historiographer may and doeth set downe often aswell the faults as commendable things of famous mē that they write of Wherefore to cōclude this point for all this it remaineth firme and sound that I saied before they can neither by scripture nor any sound ancient writer approue their sacrificing offering or praying for the reliefe of soules in purgatorie Wherefore to go on now we are come to examine Origēs testimonies which are two onely here cyted for prayer for the dead by Albine namely his 12 Homily vpon Ieremy and his 8. booke vpon the Romans cap. 11. in which places let them be read neuer so often there shal not be foūd so much as mētion of prayers for the dead indeede in both of them there is some mention of a purging fire but as I haue shewed before in the first entrance into this point when I repeated the words of the authour in these places none at all of the popish purgatorie For in the first he speaketh of that fire that must consume our hay woode and stubble which hee telleth vs is God who is a consuming fire of such things and in the other he speaketh expresly of the fire and torments of hell wherein saieth he he that would not be purged by the Euangelicall and Apostolique doctrine reserueth himselfe to be purified Thus thou maiest see good reader that which I admonished thee of before how they proue praying for the deade by mention of a purging fire though it be mentioned neuer so diuersly and farre from their sence as in these two places it is most euident it is whereby thou maiest see how with out all conscience they seeke to abuse thee with fond reasons and ambiguity of words Belike though the Scripture saie in hell there is no redemption yet Master Albine beleeues by his alleadging the later of these places Damascenes tale of Gregories getting Traians soule out of hell by praier and that Saint Frauncis and others also haue done and now can doe the like or at least that he and his fellowes haue beene fowely deceiued that before now made it a distinct place from hell In earnest let them take heede whom they haue perswaded hitherto doe hereafter that they go but thither and that they so they will take order they may be well paide for it will helpe them to ease there and out in the ende that they finde not indeede the popish purgatorie they dreamt of in the ende to proue nothing else but the fire
now honour them it was no errour at al in him and if it had beene that he had held but so I am fully persuaded that rather Hierom would haue commended him for it then otherwise But indeed your grosse honouring of them was not then so much as thought of Vigilantius his fault as it seemeth by Hieroms charging of him was that hee woulde not allowe that there should such cost be bestowed vpon their tombes and burials or that any such estimation or reuerend regard should bee had of their graues and sepulchers as then of loue towardes them and to stirre vp others to imitate them beganne to be vsed Wherein if he went too far wee ioine not with him For wee very well allow that there should be a decent and comelie buriall of them and we esteeme of their graues and other certaine monumentes of them as of thinges that appertaine to the deare children of God But with you to tie vertue either to the place of their buriall or to any such thing that they left behinde and that in such grosse maner as you haue done wee account it both folly and blasphemous impiety It may bee when you named Arrians you meant Aerians in whom you oft tell vs that to pray for the dead was condemned for an heresie But if that were your meaning wee tell you that Epiphanius writing of them saieth flatlie howsoeuer they were so accounted of some that praier for the dead hath no manifest ground in the Scriptures but rather leaned to the fashion and traditions of men as both of this and almost of all the pointes in controuersie betwixt you and vs Soto cōtra Brentium Lind. li. 4. suae panopliae towards the end thereof two great champions of your side haue also plainely confessed and so long you shall neuer be able to proue it an heresie Againe here you must be admonished that euery thing that an heretique is reported to haue held is not by by heresie For many sound opinions often times such haue retained and by that meanes haue the easilier preuailed to seduce men by their errours And therefore you and your fellowes also doe your readers wrong in making thē to thinke that because such an hereticke such an hereticke held this and that which we hold therfore we are heretickes For if you should speake to the purpose you should first proue the opinions that wee hold to be heresies and thē shew vs that they were held and cōdēned in such and such or at the least that the things that we hold were in them heretofore condemned for heresies But to be briefe you say if our Religion be the trueth thē there hath beene neuer a Christiā Doctour in the Church since Christ for all haue taught the contrary c. These are but your words and the falshood of this I haue made to appeare in sundry points already And I would to god the poor simple people could read their works indeede for then howsoeuer it please you here to brag to the contrary they should and would perceiue that you haue in this wounderfullie abused them For they should see that for the most and greatest questions betwixt you and vs they are flat on our side in those things wherein they seeme most to fauour you that yet euen therein there was and is very great difference betwixt you and them Wherfore your vehement exhortation that men should not follow vs to condemne all Christians that haue beene since Christ which taught alwaies yours condēned ours as heresy is sutable to the foūdation that is nothing but false vaine In like maner where you bring vs here as men to auoide your argument of the condemnation of forefathers that are so driuen to our shifts that we haue nothing to say for appeasing the people but this that their errours shall not bee imputed vnto them for that they did holde them of simple ignorāce hauing no better instruction in confuting this excuse you might haue spared your paines For you may remember that otherwise I haue blunted the edge of that argument And for my part I most willingly acknowledge that ignorance shall not nor cannot exēpt any from condemnation that know not if they be of yeares and otherwise capable of knowledge the Lord Iesus Christ aright to their saluation For I know it is writen that Christ shall come in flaming fire rendering vengeance vnto them that know not God and which obey not the gospell of Iesus Christ 2. Thes 1. and that howsoeuer by strong delusion vnder Antichrist mē shall be carried to beleeue lies yet in the iust iudgement of God because they receaued not the loue of the trueth they shal be damned for not beleeuing the trueth 2. Thess 2. But you say some haue vsed that excuse of them in conference with your selfe I warrant you not simply to excuse such as liued and died in an Antichristian faith that is looking to be saued not onely through the mercie of God in Christ Iesus but by other meanes also which can not stand together with a sound faith in Christ but such onely as either amongst the fathers were preserued from euer falling into this foūdamental errour or hauing fallen into it had growen to detest it to imbrace a faith seeking and finding in Christ alone the full cause of their saluation ere they died of which two sortes besides those whom God did cleane preserue from the infection of popery as hee did the 7000. in Elias his time from the idolatry of Baal euen in the greatest florish of poperie the Lord no doubt of it had infinite numbers For I my selfe in my daies haue knowen diuers in whom the leauen of popery hath beene so rooted that notwithstanding neuer so good meanes haue beene vsed in their health and prosperity to reforme them yet they haue perseuered in an opinion that they should either not be saued or that partly they should be saued for their own merits who yet in time of sickenes or some other misery hauing therby beene brought as it were before Gods presence and so to see the infinitenes of his iustice haue straight renounced all confidence in their owne works with wōderful detestation of their owne blasphemous and foolish conceit that euer they trusted in them or in any thing but onely in Christ Iesus who now when they knew them selues they would confesse was he that alone must saue them by that which he had done himselfe or else it would neuer be And if the Lord thus mercifully reclaimed some that wilfully and peeuishly a long time had resisted the trueth shining as it doeth now why should wee not much more conceiue that hee shewed that mercy vpon a number of our forefathers who dwelt in that errour of simplicity and ignorāce That therein in a number of things else they erred not you say but you shal neuer be able to proue Neither can you vpon our holding that they did erre conclude that either