Church is the pillar of truth whosoeuer doth separate himselfe from the Church doth depart from the truth And by this we do still proue that you are all heretickes and scismatikes and do peruert the scriptures because you take them not as the Church doth expound them The scriptures seeme to be on your side but they are not they seeme to be against vs but they are not Pro. This is very sound stuffe you make three strong conclusions out of three sentences of the scriptures In the first ye reason thus the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures therefore none can vnderstand the scriptures but the learned by this your meaning is to shut out all the layitie as you call them from iudging of doctrine and to allow vnderstanding of the scriptures to none but the learned that is the Clergie of Rome for that we shal haue by and by But ye ouershoote your selfe much when ye thinke that Saint Peter by vnlearned men doth meane such as haue not bin brought vp in schoole learning and so put that difference betweene cleargie and layitie No he counteth all those learned which are taught of God both of the common sort of people and other all those are vnlearned which are not taught of God although otherwise they abound in all knowledge of tongues and arts or whatsoeuer Such as haue learned Christ Iesus and him crucified and so are become new creatures in Christ they are learned Col. 2. For in him are all the treasures of wisdome and knowledge He that hath not learned Christ he is vnlearned If he be not new borne but as S. Iohn saith 1. Iohn 3. cōmitteth sin he hath not séene him nor knowne him although otherwise he be neuer so studied a mā in the scriptures Math. 11. For this cause we see that the poore Publicanes are called the children of wisedome because they imbraced the doctrine of Christ when the great Doctors the Scribes and Pharisies were starke blind They sayd none followed Christ but the multitude which knew not the law Iohn 7. which were accursed when as indeede they were blind and accursed themselues so fareth it now with the Pope and his shauelings they say the people cannot vnderstand the scriptures when themselues do not The next sentence vppon which you conclude is out of Peter also where hee saith No scripture is of priuate interpretation From hence you fetch an inuincible argument to proue that none of vs may interprete but Rome onely No priuate man is to interprete the scriptures because no scripture is of priuate interpretation all those which are not of the Popish Cleargie or which haue not authority in the Church from the Pope or do not expound as the Church are priuate men therfore none of those are to interprete the scriptures Here the Pope like a greedy cormorant will haue all to himselfe But ye deale deceiptfully or at the least vnskilfully with the text which ye alleadge for Saint Peter when he saith priuate doth not speake it to make this difference betweene men as though for interpreting the scriptures some shold haue authority some should be priuate but he setteth men against God calling that priuate which is of man For he doth reason thus the scripture was not giuen by the will of man but by the spirite of God therefore the interpretation thereof must bee of God men must not bring that which is their owne If the interpretation be by the spirit then is it not priuate if it be out of mans braine although it should be the Pope al his Cardinals yea ten thousand Popes it is still priuate after the sense in which S. Peter doth call priuate For let any skilful man in the greeke tongue looke vpon the word which is idias epiluseos and he will confesse that it doth signifie that which is ones owne Then the sense is plaine and it is also manifest how peeuishly you peruert the word of God What manner of argument is this a man may not in the interpreting of the Scriptures bring that which is his owne therfore none may interprete them but the Church of Rome Your last reason is not worth answering for although it is most true that the Church is the pillar of truth that those are voyd of truth which abide not in the Church yet this is as false that the Pope his company are the Church of Christ as the other is true and therefore we are no heretikes nor Schismatikes for departing from you which are a den of theeues which haue conspired against the truth Pa. Two grosse things and strange I gather out of your words the one that you would haue the people of themselues to iudge of doctrine the other ye will haue no other interpreter of the sense of the Scriptures but the Spirit I pray ye I am an vnlearned man would faine know which is the truth I heare you alleadge the scriptures in one sense and you say you haue the spirit our men alleadge them in another sense and say they haue the spirit the Anabaptists they haue the spirite the Arrians they interprete by the spirit what shal I do here is euery man hath the spirit yet euery one goeth a contrary way It is manifest therefore that heere needeth a more certaine thing to leane vnto or else the simple man cannot tell which way to turne him What shall he do now but looke how the Church beleeueth and rest in that For he must haue that which may teach him to know which of all these hath the true spirit or else he is neuer the neerer Pro. Ye find two grosse things in my words one of them is that I say the people can iudge of doctrine when it is preached What doth our Sauior Christ meane when he saith Iohn 10. My sheep heare my voyce a stranger they wil not heare they flie frō strangers Cā they know the voice of the true shepheard from the false can they not discerne doctrine The other is that I will haue none other interpreter of the sense of the scriptures but the spirit 1. Cor. 2. S. Paul saith the eare hath not heard nor the eye hath not seene neither came into mans hart the things which God hath prepared for them that loue him but God hath reuealed them vnto vs by his spirite for the spirite searcheth all things yea the deepe things of God And the great doubt which you put forth in the simple man which would faine vnderstand the truth and which of all those foure that ye named haue the spirit I answer that if he himselfe haue not the spirite of God to teach him he shall not be able to iudge but if the spirite do teach him then can he find it for the spirite which doth teach the one to vtter the doctrine which is his doth teach the other to know that doctrine and in them consenteth vnto it being his owne and therefore
is among you Papists Some one of ye doe deuise a lye and then ye tosse it from one to another vntill at the last it hath a passeport giuen it from such credible men that it may go where it wil. But I will let this passe and come to some other of your wicked meanes by which yee labour to stay vp the rotten chayre of Antichrist I will come yet to greater and more shamefull villanies which trueth neuer néedeth because the Lord doth support her Pa. Can you finde such matters against vs and not see your selues I warrant ye that which ye doe accuse vs of is to be found in you howsoeuer ye accuse vs and excuse your selues Pro. Where can ye finde that euer the truth was maintained by periuries and breaking couenants Let a man reade and reade again among all Heathen men Turks and Iewes where shall he finde that it hath bin taken generally to be allowed that they might sweare and forsweare to deceiue and not make conscience to kéepe the oth Among you this is a principle faith is not to bee kept with heretikes Which also yee doe from time to time put in practise It is not to bee looked for that you should sticke to make lyes when yee dare publish it to the world in writing that ye may lawfully forsweare your selues and breake the faith which ye haue giuen by oth By this meanes ye haue cōmitted very horrible slaughters and cruell murthers the like whereof haue scarsely béen heard of Are these practises of God O ye bloody periured forsworne wretches Doth the holy Ghost leade men into such kind of dealing no verely it is the spirit of the father of lyes of periuries of murthers which ye are lead withall Gods spirit is the spirit of trueth hee neuer teacheth men to lye and to deale falsly and therefore those people are bewitched which think the Pope his adherēts to bee lead by the spirit of God when as they be so full of all abominable treacheries Pa. What should we meddle with these things I cannot tell how a man should perswade you to see the authoritie of the Church You iudge of all things after your owne reason I haue no delight to deale in these matters I will not say that which I could say Pro. I cannot blame ye that ye are loth to meddle in these matters It were a great deale better if they were kept close among your selues For now no man that is wise will trust ye neither vpon promise nor yet vpon oth which ye breake so often There be many goodly rules which ye deuise now secretly among your selues But what should you go about to perswade with me in these matters which am not first perswaded how great authoritie the Church hath For ye haue none other argument but the authoritie of the Church to allow these things Gods word doth curse and condemne periuries and murders committed by such treacheries To dispute out of that for the maintenance of them yee know yee shall haue but a cold suite of it It is a great deale better therefore to lay the word of God aside and to set forth what power the new God hath for to change the nature of things He is of another maner power then men wéete The GOD which hath spoken in the Scriptures can doe nothing nor say nothing but trueth but the God of Rome hath power to do what he will and to say what hee list whether it bee true or false This is a mightie God he can play both fast and loose at his pleasure Let a thing bée neuer so much commended by God in the Scriptures if he say it is naught then is it naught So on the other side whatsoeuer it bee that is condemned to be euill he hath power to make it good This is the cause why you say many are deceiued they looke but to the Scriptures and forget this God which hath power ouer the Scriptures Pa. If you may accuse what ye list then it were well But let vs see wherein the Pope hath challenged any such power Pro. Haue not I shewed ye already in some part as in lyes murders and periuries Will ye haue more what say ye to treasons and rebellions Doth not the Pope make it lawfull to commit treason Doth he not discharge subiects of their obedience and subiection to their Prince Doth he not giue any of them leaue to kill their Prince and maketh it a worke greatly meritorious What diuell can goe further then this Doth not God set vp Princes and hath not hee put the sword into their hands Doth not he charge men to bée subiect to obey them Doth not he say that whosoeuer doth resist them doth resist the ordinance of God and that those which doe resist do purchase to themselues damnation O ye traiterous wretches doe ye not sée that yée draw all those into damnation vnder Gods curse whom ye draw from their loue and obedience towards their Prince Let all men consider this hath a greasie balde Priest of Italie power against Gods word to giue leaue to subiects and inferiour persons in England to play the vilaines and traytors against their soueraigne prince whom God hath set ouer them for whose defence God doth require at their hands to giue their liues Shal the foule beast of Rome haue power to reward that déede in heauē which God hath threatned to punish in hell Let all the people of this land consider this and shun such filthy abominable men Some will say wherefore should wee eschew them being honest If ranke traytors be honest then are all the Iesuites Seminaries and popish priests with such as loue and harbour them to be counted honest Pa. I see more and more that I cannot preuaile by speaking and therefore I will giue ye ouer say euen what ye list I see it is good for a man to take heed with whom he doth talke I could answere ye to the full if it might doe good Thus much I will say that it is one thing to commit treason against a prince which is godly and another thing to kill an heretike which is no lawfull prince The subiects indeede may not disobey and rebell but when the prince is no right prince then they are no longer subiects What say ye to Ehud in the booke of the Iudges did not he slay Eglon king of Moab and that vnder colour of a message What say ye to Iehoiada the priest did not hee cause them to slay Athaliah when she had reigned certaine yeares and set vp Ioash to bee king If the priest of the law had this power how much more the priest of the Gospell Pro. Ye would giue me ouer now ye say but your traiterous heart is so full that it will not suffer ye Indéede I know ye like it much better to deale among the vnlearned people whom ye may draw to your opinion or with such as ye know to beare the same minde
wee condemne it and hate it more then you do And although ye goe about to abuse and wrest the scriptures against vs yet ye shall neuer bee able to driue any true Catholike from the right pure and deuout worship of God Pro. Will ye confesse if I proue that you are Idolaters that yours is the false Church and that ye are fallen away from the trueth that the Pope is Antichrist Pa. I must needes confesse that Idolaters are fallen from the trueth but where as ye make offer to proue that we commit Idolatrie I say still wee be the furthest frō it of all other And in this I think my selfe sufficiently armed to stand against all the heretikes in the world proue what ye can Pro. Al those which worship idols are condemned in the holy Scriptures to be idolaters But it seemeth you Papists doe not worship idols at least ye would beare men in hand ye doe not when as in very déede ye doe it in most shamefull maner Where hath it euer béene heard of that men haue more doted vpō stocks and stones then the Papists Wil ye stil then be past shame and say you hate idolatrie you are furthest from it of all other Pa. I say still and neede not be ashamed that it is the blindnesse of you heretikes which either cannot or will not see that ours is no Idolatrie This sin of Idolatrie is where they worship Idols wee haue images of the true God of the blessed Virgin of the Apostles and of other Saints wee haue no idols of feined and false Gods wee worship not the images themselues neither but the things which are by them represented Moreouer we doe not giue latria to the images of Saints but dulia which God in the scriptures doth neuer condemne I say therefore ye helpe vs when ye say we worship stocks and stones or that we worship any besides the true God You are the idolaters your selues Pro. You would faine purge and cléere your selues from idolatrie and therefore ye haue deuised these distinctions first ye would make a difference betwéene Idoll and Image yours are Images but not Idols Secondly ye shift the matter that ye do not worship the Images themselues but that which the Image doth put ye in minde of And last of all your déepe distinction betwéene latria which is worship which ye giue onely to God and dulia which is seruice which ye bestow vpon the Saints I will lay open how vaine these things are and yet how they be subtill to deceiue poore ignorant soules Pa. I know your answers well enough ye take vpon ye to defend that an Idoll and an Image are all one And so when it is said God made man after his owne Image yee may translate it after his owne Idoll It may be said of the picture image of the prince this is the princes Idoll Likewise if a painter paint an image of a dog ye may say this is an Idoll of a dog Ah Sirs this is ouer grosse ye shew by this what your skill is in other things Pro. Now must ye néeds win the spurres because wee say that Image and Idoll is all one sauing that the one is Greeke and the other Latin Ye say thē we must say God made man after his owne Idoll which were very grosse I confesse that in our tongue it were grosse indéed because the word Idoll is by common vse of spéech taken alwaies in euill part but in the Gréeke tongue it was not so But I will come néerer vnto ye to shew your deceitfull dealing in this shall wee desire a better iudge in this matter then the Hebrew tongue in the scriptures in which it is said that God made man after his owne image and in which there is much spoken of idols What if I proue that hee vseth the same word where hee speaketh of idols which he vseth where hee saith God made man after his owne image Will there then be such a difference Pa. When I see this then I will beleeue it before I will not the Scriptures do speake of images it may be there is the same word But you must proue it where hee doth speake it of those which were idols indeed of the heathen of false gods Pro. I wil shew where he speaketh of idols indéed which were worshipped by the heathē and proue that he vseth the same word The word in Moses is Tselem after which Adam was created Gen. 1. Now looke where hee speaketh to the children of Israel by Moses to command them to break down the idols of the heathen and ye shall finde the same word As Numb 33. He saith ye shall destroy Tsalme Massecotham that is their moulten images In the 2. booke of Kings chap. 11. it is said They went into the house of Baal and brake downe his images which he calleth by the same name By this it doth appeare that in the holy scriptures there is no such difference betwéene idol and image as the Papists would beare men in hand For these were idols by their owne confession which yet are set forth vnder that same word which Moses vseth for the likenes of God after which man was created Pa. All this doth proue nothing for wee doe grant that which ye haue said Because idols be also images although euery picture and image bee not an idol for an idol is an image which is worshipped and taken to be God Pro. It doth proue this for which I did alleage it that the same word is in that tongue vsed indifferently for the image of GOD and for the idols of the heathen But because ye say it doth proue nothing séeing idols be images although euery image is not by and by an idol vnlesse it be worshipped Let me demand this Is not that which is forbidden to bee made in the Scriptures an idoll Pa. I know no man which doth deny but that is an idoll which the Scriptures do forbid But you must go further then that for ye must proue that those which the Scripture doth forbid are but called images and so images and idols to be all one Pro. Ye say right for those which the scripture condemneth we must cōfesse to be idols then if I proue that the scripture doth condēne images it must néeds follow that they be idols I require no more for it is manifest that the Scripture doth forbid all images of God as in Deuterono 4. there is forbidden not onely Semel but also Temnuah and Tabnith And in Esay 40. Demuth Who will bee so mad as to deny but that here are images forbidden and therefore that images are idols Pa. I see no cause why I should not deny it for they were also idols because they were made to be worshipped Pro. I sée no cause why I may not estéeme you to be obstinatly blinded Because in these places which I haue cited he doth not onely speake of the true GOD but also the reasons which are set downe