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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A54912	Occasionall discourses 1. Of worship and prayer to angells and saints. 2. Of purgatorie. 3. Of the Popes supremacie. 4. Of the succession of the Church. Had with Doctor Cosens, by word of mouth, or by writing from him. By Thomas Carre confessour of the English nunnerie at Paris. As also, An answer to a libell written by the said Doctor Cosens against the great Generall councell of Lateran under Innocentius the third, in the yeere of our Lord 1215. By Thomas Vane Doctor in Diuinity of Cambridge.	Carre, Thomas, 1599-1674.; Vane, Thomas, fl. 1652. Answer to a libell written by D. Cosens against the great Generall councell of Laterane under Pope Innocent the Third. aut	1646 (1646)	Wing P2272; ESTC R220529	96,496	286

Angels or Saints at all and therefore not to the present purpose as 1. That of S. Austine 2. That of Tertullian twice 3. That of S Chrysostome Now that I may not onely say this but make it appeare in effect I will obserue this order fairely to put downe your seuerall obiections seuerally and in as many and the same words without changing or omitting one syllable produced by you and attend each of them in particular with my answers apprehending that the most perspicuous and satisfactorie way to the readers or hearers and least subiect to be misconstrued or misconceaued Of the worshipping and praying to Angels COSENS THat this was forbidden by S. Paul and condemned by the ancient fathers of the Church is manifest both from the testimonie of Theodoret and others and from the Canon made against it in the Councell of Laodicea CARRE That the worship and prayer to Angells as it is practised in the Catholike Apostolike and Romane Church which is the thing in question is not forbidden by S. Paul or condemned by the ancient Fathers c. which you pretend to make good by sundrie passages of the Fathers here puttdowne I hope to make as cleare as the said Fathers owne plaine words can make it COS. Let no man seduce you through humilitie and the Religion or worshiping of Angels They that maintaynd the law induced the Colossians to worship Angels telling them that the law was giuen by Angells and therfore that they ought to be worshipped And this vice continued a great while among them both in Phrygia and Pisidia Therfore the Councell which was gathered together at Laodicea which is the Metropolitan Citie of Phrygia forbad it by a law and commanded them that they should not pray to Angels To this day are to be seene the oratories which they and their neighbours made to the Angel S. Michael And this they did praying to them out of humilitie saying that the God of Heauen and earth was inuisible and incomprehensible to whom they could not come and that therfore it behoued them to procure his fauour by the Angels And this was it which S. Paul meant when he said Let no man seduce you through humilitie and the worshipping of Angels CAR. We answere that that passage of S. Paul is to be vnderstood of such as are so seduced as that they giue away to creatures soueraigne worship which is due to God alone And in this sense we with S. Paul crye out Let no man seduce you c. And that this is not said gratis but is indeed the true sense of S. Paul appeares first out of S. Chrysostome vpon the same place saying There are some who say that we are to be brought to God by Angels and not by Christ 2. by the cōtext or sequell of words in the verie next verse and not holding the head to witt Christ but in lieu of Christ substituting Angels as saith the said Theodoret and S. Anselme 3. by the Councell of Laodicea it selfe to which wee haue Theodoret wholly alluding and referring to it and therfore is to be interpreted by it Let vs heare then what it saith and consequently what Theodoret would and must say COS. The words of the Canon made by the Councell of Laodicea about 1300. yeares since be these CAnon 35. That Christians ought not to forsake the Church of God and goe to the Angels makeing priuate meetings for that purpose which are wholly forbidden therfore if any one shall be found to follow this secret and priuate Idolatrie let him be accursed Car. Here is somewhat not rightly putt downe some thing quite left out Take it as followes That we ought not to relinquish the Church of God and depart thence and nominate Angels and to make assemblies which are knowen to be forbidden Therfore if any shall be found to follow this secret Idolatrie Let him be accursed Because he forsooke our Lord Iesus Christ the son of God and abandoned himselfe to Idolatrie or went to Idols These words because he forsooke our Lord Iesus Christ the son of God and abandoned himselfe to Idolatrie or went to Idols are quite left out being yet the most important to decide the difficultie betwixt vs though immediatly following and clearely deliuering the reason or cause of what preceeded Is there now any need of further answere Doe Catholikes hold that they ought to forsake the Church of God and to depart thence to name call or if you please inuocate Angells Doe they to that purpose make any secret assemblies which are publikely forbidden Doe they finally forsaking our Lord Iesus Christ the son of God giue themselues ouer to Idolatrie and thereby draw the curse vpō their shoulders it being imposed for no other cause as the Councell it selse expounds it selfe designing the particular reason of the curse saying Because he forsooke our Lord c. why did you then deale so spareingly with your friends as by leauing out what was most important to leaue them with some apparent doubt quaking vnder the feare of a curse if they should worship or pray to a Saint wheras the words being produced made most cleare that there was indeed no cause of feare at all In a word that this Canon cannot be meant of the Religious worship which the Catholike Church payes to Angels and Saints is further manifest both by the Canon 34. immediatly preceeding in the same Councell where the Religious worship of a true Martir is approued in these words A Christian ought not to forsake the Martirs of Christ and goe to false Martirs And also by the 51. art following We ought not to celebrate the birthdayes of Martirs in Lent but onely to make a memorie which we call now a cōmemoration of them vpon saturday and sonday Iudge then whether it were likely that the holy Councel would with one breath both establish and destroye the worship due to Angels or Saints the difficultie equally vrgeing against them both Againe the phrase of the Councell being nominare Angelos I would fayne know by what rule it is rather englished to goe to the Angells then as the words vsually signifie by the cōmon consent of men to nominate or name the Angels which is wont to be done in coniurations and enchantements c. which sense the canon 36. immediately following seemes particularly to fauour and cōfirme as rendring the reason of the precedent canon because saith it the ministers of the Altar or Clarkes ought not to be Magicians or enchanters or to make certaine scrolls Phylacteria wherin things are written c. in such were the Pharisies accustomed to write the Commandements and to weare them about their heads or armes in a superstitious manner as appeares by Hierome Oleaster vpon Deut. c 6. Nor doth this passage of Theodoret any whit preiudice the Catholike cause all things being well ballanced First because his sense herein is the sense of the Councell which you see toucheth vs not Secondly his words being duely considered

obserued where he exclaimes against that pompous title of vniuersall saying It is euident to all who know the Gospell that the care of the whole Church is committed by our Lords voyce to S. Peter the Apostle the Prince of all the Apostles for to him it was said Peter doest thou loue me feede my sheepe c. beholde he receiues the keyes of the kingdome of heauen the power of binding ad loosing is giuen to him the care and principalitie principatus soueraigntie or dominion of the whole Church is committed to him and yet he is not called vniuersall Apostle OBSERVATION Receiue from saint Gregories owne mouth then that the Sea Apostolique is the head of all the Churches That all Bishops found in fault are subiect to it That Peter was placed ouer all the Churches That the Roman Church is the head of all the Churches That it is knowne to all that know the Gospell that the Care of the whole Church is committed by our Lord himselfe to Peter the Prince of all the Apostles and that yet he is not called vniuersall Apostle What other thing is this I pray then to crye out with a lowde voyce and to make open demonstration to all the world that while he exclaymes against the title of vniuersall Bishop he refuses not the headship of all the Churches but professeth to haue iurisdiction and superintendencie ouer all the other Bishops Archbishops and Patriarkes as doth partly appeare by what I haue alreadie cited out of him and more fully shall yet appeare in my ensuing discourse THE II. TITLE WHEREBY saint Gregorie makes good the supremacie is The exercice of such power all ouer the Christian world FIRST ouer the Bishops of Europe l. 12. Ep. 15. to s. Aug. in particular ouer the Bishops of England Let the Bishop of Yorke order 12. Bishops and enioy the honour of a Metropolitane but let all the Bishops of England be subiect to thy brotherhood Secondly l. 7. Ep. 112. ouer the Bishops of France Granting the vse of the Pall to the Bishop of Auston he saith And withall we perceiued we were to grant that the Church of the cittie of Auston should be after the Church of Lions and to challenge to it selfe this place and rancke by the fauour indulgentia of our Authoritie Thirdly ouer the Bishops of Spayne saying Let him who presumed while the innocent Bishop was yet aliue to be ordered in his Church against the Canons being depriued of priesthood be cast out of all Church-ministerie and withall let him be kept in safe custodie or els be sent vnto vs. Let the Bishops who ordered him being depriued of the Communion of the body and bloud of our Lord for the space of six monthes be appointed to doe pennance in a Monasterie Fourthly l. 7. Ep. 32. Ouer the Bishops of Africa In particular thus to the Bishop of Carthage By louing the Sea Apostolique you baue recourse to the source of your office or dignitie knowing whence priestly ordination had its beginning in Africa Againe l. 10. Ep. 2. Writing to Columbus a Bishop of Numidie c. he saith You are diligently to examine all the contents of his Petition to witt Donadeus Deacon degraded by Victor a Bishop of Numidie and if his complaint be accompanied with truth let canonicall rigour be vsed against his Bishop Victor Fiftly l. 2. Ep. 6. Ouer the Bishops of Greece In particular ouer Iohn Bishop of Iustiniana prima in these words As for the present hauing first disannulled and made of no effect the Decrees of thy sentence we decree by the authoritie of Blessed Peter Prince of the Apostles that for thirtie dayes space thou shalt be depriued of the holy Communion that with verie great pennance and teares thou mayst preuayle with Almightie God to pardon thy so great an excesse And if we shall come to perceiue that thou doest coldly performe our sentence know that then not barely thy iniustice but the contumacie also of thy brotherhood shall be more seuerely punished Againe l. 5. Ep. 7. Writing to the Bishops of Epirus he saith Know that we haue sent a Pall to Andrew our brother and fellow-Bishop and haue graunted or confirmed him all the priuiledges which our predecessours conferred vpon his Againe Writing to Iohn Bishop of Corinth l. 4. Ep. 51. touching Secūdinus a Bishop whom he had deputed to examine and depose one Anastasius Bishop quam causam ei examinandam iniunximus he saith And because in that sentence whereby it is euident that the fore named Anastasius was iustly condemned and deposed our fore-mentioned brother and fellow Bishop so punished certaine persons that he reserued them to our arbitrimēet And a litle after speaking of another we pardō him this fault and we appoint that he should be receiued in his rancke and place Againe We will haue them to witt Euphemius and Thomas to remayne deposed as they are and we decree that they shall neuer more be receiued into holy orders vnder what pretext of excuse soeuer Sixtly l. 5. Ep. 14. Writing to Marinianus Bishop of Rauenna vpō the difference which was betweene his Church and Claudius the Abbot he saith And doe not you your selfe know that in the cause which was agitated by Iohn Priest against Iohn of Constantinople our brother and fellow Bishop recourse was made to the Sea Apostolique following the Canons and the cause was ended definita by our Sentence And thence saint Gregorie frames an argument a fortiori in these words which immediatly follow If therfore the cause be deuolued to our knowledge euen from the Cittie where the Prince to witt the Emperour resides how much more is the busines which is against you to be determined or iudged here the trueth being knowne The like speeches bearing a face of authoritie with them are all his Epistles so full of as may with ease be seene in Dr. Sander's visible Monarchie that who would take the paines could hardly light vpon an Epistle where he should not meete with thē If he should looke vpon the 11. booke and 10. Epistle he would finde him instile the kings his sonnes saying according to the writing of our sonnes the most excellent kings c. And in the end of the same Ep. And we command that all these things shall be obserued for euer which are contayned in this our Decree as well by thy selfe he speakes to a certaine Abbot as by all those who shall succeede in thy place and rancke or whom it may otherwise concerne And if any king Priest Iudge or secular person hauing knowledge of this our Constitution shall offer to oppose it let him be depriued of his honour and dignitie and acknowledge that he stands guiltie of the iniquitie committed in the sight of the diuine iudgement And vnlesse he doe either restore the things which he wickedly tooke away or expiate his iniquitie with the teares of worthy repentance let him be kept from the most sacred body

an impietie which we doubt not thou wilt so deeply resent that thou wilt not be able to contayne thy selfe from correcting them c. Againe But we conceiue by the mercy of our Lord God Christ Iesus who daignes both to direct thy counsells and to heare thy prayers that they who hold those peruerse and pernicious tenets will easily yeeld to the authoritie of thy Holinesse which is drawne from the authoritie of the holy Scriptures And in the end of the same Epistle We addressed these writings to your Holinesse from the Councell of Numidia to witt from Mileui imitating our fellow-Bishops of the Prouince of Carthage who we perceiue haue written vpon this subiect to the sea Apostolike which sea Apostolike thou a blessed man dost illustrate or which your holinesse doth gouerne quam Beatus illustras Thus did the whole Councell deferre to the Sea Apostolike Heare now how this respect is receiued by Pope Innocentius With care saith he and congruitie did you exhibite respect to the Apostolicall honour to his honour I say who besides what was without had the solicitude of all the Churches in seeking what sentence you are to hold in points of great difficultie following therein the forme of the ancient rule which you know the whole world obserues with me Behold how Pope Innocentius ascribes the honour done to himselfe to S. Peter as to one who had the care of all the Churches and declares that in hauing recourse to him to know what they should hold in points of GREAT DIFFICVLTIE they doe but follow the ancient forme of proceeding which as he saith they knew all the world obserues Heare againe S. Augustine confirming the same What answer could that holy man returne to the Africane Councells but that which the Apostolicall Sea and Romane Church holds of old perseuerantly with the rest And what forme of proceeding did they amongst the rest expresse Marrie that they were to betake themselues to his Pastorall care in the great dangers of the infirme members of Christ as to condemne Heresie c. That they were to intimate such things to his Apostolicall heart to haue them corrected That the authoritie of his Holinesse is drawne out of the authoritie of holy Scripture Is this to misacknowledge or deny the supremacie of Rome No let onely this forme of proceeding be obserued this correction endured this authoritie be acknowledged and we shall thus farre most willingly ioyne hands and make the verie Councells which are alleadged against vs the modell of our practice So farre falls Mr. C. short in his proofes drawen from the Councell of Mileui Will you heare how much better he speeds in the 6. Councell of Carthage where it is pretended that appeales to Rome were prohibited yea euen in Maior persons too as in Bishops Metropolitans c Certes if that Councell be well looked into and with an indifferent eye it will be found so farre from concluding against the supremacie that it doth absolutely conuince the truth of it for First what was there said was said against the manner and frequencie not against the right of Appeales as manifestly appeares by the Epist of the Africane Bishops to Pope Celestine in these tearmes Conc. A●●ri● c. 15. The office of a due salutation being premised we beseech you with our whole affection that you doe not easily admitt such as come from hence to your eares and that you would no more receiue to Communion such as we may haue excommunicated c. let not then those who were barred from Communion in their owne Prouinces appeare to be restored to Communion by your Holinesse with precipitation and otherwise then is meete Behold the companie of the Bishops of Afrike become humble suitors to the Bishop of Rome and consequently acknowledge his iurisdiction otherwise it were a most sillie part to sue to him in those tearmes not that he would not admitt any appeales at all but not easily admitt them c Not that he would restore none at all to Communion c. which yet they should haue done and haue denyed he had any such authoritie had they opposed the supremacie but onely that it should not appeare that they were reslored with preoipitation and otherwise then was meete alwayes presupposing such a power Secondly what was said was said in point of Minor causes as in ciuill pecuniarie scandalous and criminall matters c. such as was that of Apiarius an Africane Priest and that of Anthonie Bishop of Fussal both which appealed to Rome and their Appeales were there admitted to proue or disproue which productions of witnesses would often be necessarie to witt people of diuers sexes and ages litle fitt to vndergoe the difficulties of such a voyage to say nothing of the charges or other impediments as is expressed in the Epist 105. of the Africane Councell to the Pope of Rome Celestine Thirdly whatsoeuer was said nothing was done what euer was proposed nothing was enacted or decreed against the right of Maior persons to witt Bishops in their appeales to Rome who kept their priuileges according to that of S. Augustin speaking of Ceoilianus Archbishop of Carthage deposed by a Councell of seauentie Bishops saying He might haue contemned the conspiring multitude of his enemyes because he saw himselfe in communion with the Church of Rome by Communicatory letters wherin the Principality or soueraigntie of the Sea Apost did alwayes flourish where he was prepared to pleade his cause Nay what was euen proposed too was done dependently of what should be discouered in the Councell of Nice which they had sent for to the Patriarchall Churches in the East and that with all possible submission to the Church of Rome the while witnesse their owne words as they are put downe in the said 6. Councell In Ep. ab omni Concilio Africano ad Bonifacium Vrbis Romae Episcopum in answer to the propositions contayned in the Monitorie sent to them frō Pope Zozimus by Faustinus Bishop his Legate c. Wherein he recommended to them the obseruance of the 7. canon of the Councell of Sardis indeede Conc. Sardis cap. 7. but vnder the name of the Councell of Nice it being esteemed an appendix of this touching Appeales to Rome as followes But if he to witt a Bishop iudged and deposed by the Assemblie of Bishops of the same Countrie who demands to haue a new hearing of his cause haue by petition moued the Bishop of Rome to send a Priest è latere suo commonly called Legatus à latere it shall be in the Bishops power to doe what he will and what he iudges fitt And if he decree to send some endowed with his authoritie from whom they are sent who being present with the Bishops should iudge it is in his free disposition And if he beleeue the Bishops sufficient to put a period to the affaire he shall doe what in his owne most wise counsell he iudges behoofull Now the Africane Bishops not finding this in

the Councell of Nice and not otherwise being acquainted with the Councell of Sardis saue onely whith a spurious one made neere Sardis by the Arrians as S. Aug. giues testimonie and fauoured by the Donatists And on the other side being wearied out with frequent costly and disorderly appeales as in the present with that of Apiarius a simple priest for the second tyme were willing doubtlesse to haue lighted vpon some lawfull redresse in that behalfe yet marke I beseech you with what humilitie and respect to the Sea of Rome it is sought for They sue they supplicate they protest in the interim to obserue what was enjoyned them by the Popes Legates which certainly they had had no reason to doe had they apprehended no authoritie in the Pope to command We professe saith Alypius Bishop of Tagaste that we are willing to obserue what is established in the Councell of Nice In the 6. Councell of Carthage and a little after but we finde it not as our brother Faustinus brought it And therevpon he applyes himselfe to Aurelius Bishop of Carthage that the Acts of the Councell of Nice should be sent for into Greece that all ambiguitie might be remoued saith he and concludes Howbeit We professe as I said before that in the meane while we will obserue these things till the entire Coppies exemplaria concilij Niceni shall come With which the Popes Legate Faustinus was so fully satisfied that he pronounced vpō it Nor doth your sanctitie fore-iudge or doe a preiudice to the Church of Rome c. in that our brother and fellow-Bishop Alypius daigned to say the Canons were doubtfull but onely please to write these verie things to our holy and most Blessed Pope c. To which Aurelius Archb. of Carth. replyed Besides these things which we haue promised in the Acts we must of necessitie withall most fully intimate by the letters of our Townes euery thing we treate of to our holy brother and fellow Priest Boniface Which the whole Councell seconded with Placet And we professe adds Aug. Bishop of Hippon we will obserue this sauing a more diligent inquisition about the Councell of Nice Finally the whole Councell resolues to expect the Actes of the Councell of Nice authenticated vnder the three Patriarches hands whereby say they the chapters which are contayned in the present instructions commonitorio of Faustinus c. being there found shall be strengthened by vs or not being found shall be more fully handled in a subsequent Synode collected to that effect Let now indifferent persons iudge what could euer be spoken with more submission and indifferencie and lesse entrench vpon the Popes knowen authoritie which euen by this their proceeding clearely discouers it selfe and shines as it were through this seeming miste of the Africane opposition Otherwise 1. In Ep ad Cel●st Gone Afric c. 15. Why is a Councell expressely called in obedience to Pope Celestine 2. And why doth the same Pope giue this honorable testimonie of S. Aug. who was one of the cheife supposed Antiappellants that for his life and merits they alwayes had him in their communion and that he was neuer touhed with so much as a rumour of any sinister suspition 3. Why did the same S. August in cause of an Appeale made by Bishop Anthonie of Fussal to Pope Celestine haue free recourse to him as to caompetent Iudge instructing and commending the cause vnto him acknowledging that some for certaine faults the verie Sea Apostolike as he saith ep 261. iudging or confirming the iudgements or sentences of others were neither depriued of Episcopall dignitie nor yet left altogether vnpunished desiring him to command all the things directed to him to wit the Processe to be read before c. It was neither for want of witt vertue nor learning sure for in that qualitie what Pope might not rather haue had recourse to him 4. Why is Faustinus admitted into their Councell and permitted to propose the Popes pleasure which they promise to obserue till farther inquirie be made in a matter ministring iust cause of doubt 5. Why is Apiarius a turbulent and wicked priest in vertue of the Popes release by prouision as it is called and by his order admitted to a second hearing in Afrike after he had bene twice cast out by the votes of the Bishops there 6. Why doth Faustinus himselfe pronounce in the full assembly that by this their proceeding no preiudice was done to the Sea of Rome 7. Why did Aurelius esteeme it a point of necessitie to impart all the particulars of their treatie to Pope Boniface 8. Finally why is it concluded by the vnanimous consent of the whole Councell that if the things which Faustinus had in his instructions be found in the Actes of Nice they will confirme it If not they doe not say they will forthwith cast of obedience to the Church of Rome they will call another Councell and treate the busines more fully But I will yet goe on and say Fourthly put case I would giue what can neuer be proued nay what is contrarie to the knowen truth of the Fact That the Africans opposition had bene against the right of Appeales to Rome not against the māner onely and that in maior persons and causes too in a word that what they proposed onely had bene decreed also and that conciliariter too yet how would this conclusion be made good by Mr. C. Ergo the Pope of Rome is not supreame head of the Church Certainely in a Protestant sense it could not sith they affirme that euen Generall Councells c. both may erre and haue somtymes erred in the 21. article of the 39. Ergo a fortiori this of Africa which was but a Prouinciall Councell may haue erred and consequently one should be conuinced of rashnes to conclude any thing out of it especially in matter of faith till mens consciences were assured that though it might yet indeede it did not erre here in which how it should he made good I am not wise enough to guesse Nor yet can it be made an argument ad hominem and conclude against a Catholike for he doth not place the infallibilitie of the Church in the decree of a prouinciall but in the Definition of a Generall Councell Ergo nothing followes hence neither Ergo to be short I will conclude this part with these fewe testimonies of the African Fathers as well before as after this 6. Councell of Carth. in point of the Popes Supremacie omitting a number of most pregnant places out of other Fathers partly for breuities sake and pratly because the Africans are most concerned herein Tertull. l. de Pudicitia c. 1. n. 5. He styles the Pope of Rome the High priest and Bishop of Bishops and tearmes the Church of Rome In Praesc ● 36. n. 212. Happie Church to whom the Apostles powred out all their doctrine together with their bloud S. Cyprian The Primacie or chiefe place rule and authoritie In l de vnitate