all be donne to edefinge not to be ment of domme thinges but thinges that wearred spoken or songe therfore was it necessarie to proue them out of godes worde SubstancialiÌ„e Wher you saye our Minor is not proued although we are men of occupation yet wee vnderstande that a vniuersall minor negatiue can not be well coÌ„firmed Yet our particular minors they ar al redie touched in the Table and herafler as you giue coccasion shal be particularlie proued The examiner The fyrst discorse here is of edifiyng or buyldyng the Churche of Christ which all faythfull Ministers do acknowledge to be theyr bounden duetie and seruice accordyng to the graces of God bestowed vpon them and neuer to hinder and plucke downe awhit wherof much more myght be said then is here rehearsed if it were nedefull to wade further in so worthy a matter Herewithall in textes and expositions you woulde not greatly haue enlarged your booke Ephes 2. if it had not ben to make al gods workemen sauiÌ„g your selues suspected to the world as pluckers downe aÌ„d destroyers of Gods most holy TeÌ„ple Fphes 4. buylded vppon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophetes when as through the grace of God workyng in theÌ„ by true and sounde doctrine in this apparell and orders manye earnest labourers of the lordes do trauayle to bryng his people to the full knowledge of Christ houesoeuer you haue entangled and accombred the consciences of your hearers So then to the two fyrst places that be out of the second and fourth Chapter to the Ephesians no more needeth to be spoken but that all the carefull buylders in this Churche of Christ whiche haue other commaunded or receyued these lawfull orders fyrst as they haue before time so do still take paynes to amplifie and beautifie the spouse of Christ with the precious iewels of spirituall wysedome And secondly do vtterly forsake vayne vngodly and vnprofitable inuentioÌ„s of man whiche two thynges you seeme to require by your note in a true preacher and can not denye them yf you be not wylfull to be in very many vsyng this apparell The Aunsvverer You confesse it is the dutie of ministers allwaies to builde and neuar to hinder or pluke downe but hear of oure texte and expositiones you wolde not haue iudged so rashlie yf you had remembred what our Sauioursayth Nolite iudicare Mat. 7. c. Iudge not Wee do not affirme that they are all destroiers and pullers down of the Temple that weare the paparell but wee may well say that all the destrioyers and pullers downe are glad to be couerid in this Apparell And that the Ceremonies and apparell tend not to edification but destruction for that no man by them is directed to Christ and the sinceritie of the Gospell neyther yet prouoked to amendment of lyfe but to Antichrist and the remenbraunce of poperie Caluin sayth that al Ceremonies are corrupte and hurfull except men be directed by them vnto Christ And for these Cerimonies that are vsed in papacie they are seperated from doctrine so that they kepe men in signes lacking all fignifications thus fare Cal. Inst li. 4 cap. 10. sect 15. Secondly whether they refuse all vaine vngodly and vnprofitable inuentions which receue this apparell must be tried by the conclusion of the matter Yet wee are not more to be accused ffor condemning the receuers then you for condemninge vs the refusers agreing with the most excelent reformed Chirchis of Fraunce Germanie and â—cotland and will yow see how yow haue setforwardes godes building in the Cytie of London Did you not in one day vnfurnish and quite dispatch of work men all the placis in the Cytie whereas any greate bildinge was and haue you not heitherto kept backe those workmen ffrom ther worke And haue you furnished these places with such diligent laborers againe and what can this be els but to stay hinder and plucke downe godes building The examiner Vpon this vniuer sall sentenc That Christes Ministers must huilde vp and not pull downe you determine that Vicars Curates and parishe Priestes ought to admit no orders whiche may not manifestly appeare vnto them that they do edifie Geuing eueri man in his paryshe an absolute authoritie muche more then they had before the prophecie was fulfilled Kynges shal be thy Nursefathers Esa 4â— and Queenes thy Nurses The Aunsvuerer Wee suppose that euerie pastor ought to be so far lernid that he may iudg of such matters or else wee thinke him not worthie to be a minister and what inconueniens commith of this affirmation wee do not yet see forasmuch as S. Paull willith euerie man to be certenlye perswaded in his own mynd whether it be lawfull or no though the matter be neuar so indifferent For he that doubtith is condemnid because he wantith faith Esa 49. and that wich is not of faith is syâ—ne Werfore when the scripture biddith all things to be done to edesie A good pastor should admit nothing but that wich he is perswaded will edifiâ— 1. Sam. 14. And of this iudgement is that reuerend â—father Peter Martir in plaine Words who putting a difference betwen Ecclesticall and polliticall lawes saith Spectanda est in in Ecclesiasticis â–ª Eutaxia in politicis autem parendum est quamuis tu eam euxtaxiam non videas In ecclesiasticall lawes good order must be considered but in polliticall lawes thow must obey allthough thow see not that good order But where yow name vicars curats aÌ„d parrish prests wherof wee made no mention in our declaration leuing out Archibishopes Bishopes Deanes Archedecons Prebendaries Cannons and Parsons wee marnell what yow meane vnles yow thinke none of them so mad as to ioyne with vs in this cause Isa 49. Yet shall she porest mynisters euen euerie vicar curat and parrish priest as yow call them haue as great authoritie in the ministration of the word and Sacraments in his Church as any of these prelates whom yow spare to name Wee confesse that kings and Quees shold be Nurcies of the Church but not Lordes of it not of our consciens wich the wordes immediatelie following in Isaye doth playnlie declare bownig down ther face to the erth they shall worship the and licke the dust of thy fet The authoritie that princis haue ouer the churchis is a seruice to defend it and to seke the profit therof raither then a prerogatiue to burthen it with superfluus and hurtfull Ceremonies at there pleasure The Examiner Yet you fearyng the inconueniences that must nedes folowe so an absurde an opinion remember your selues in the next lynes and saye That if you myght but conceyue an hope that the vse of these thynges myght helpe forwarde the Lordes buyidyng you woulde not refuse them So one tyme all orders not manifestly edifyng must be condempned another tyme yf you may hope that they wyll do well you will admit them This your chaungeable opinion well weyed differeth not much from that straunge saying of
to hym And agayne Aunsvver a foole accordyng to his foolyshnes lest he may seme to himself to be vvise It may novv of good congruence be uerified in the cause vttered in question for order of ministers appareill It is not vnlznovven vvhat argumentes and conclusions vvhat letters and vvrytynges haue ben vsed and tossed from man to man in secrete sort for these tvvo or three yeres to disprouue the libertie of the chyldren of God in the vse of externe thynges to conuel the obedience that true Subiectes shoulde perfourme to the auctoritie of theyr Prince to the lavves of the Realme established to the discredityng and condemnation of such vvhich in a vvhole conscience thynlze it lavvefull for them to vveare and yet charitably beeryng vvith the vvealznes of such vvhose consciences are entangled vvith fearefull scrupulositie tovvarde the same IT is well knowen that the matter was not handled so secretlie these ii or iii. yeres but openly setforth in the pulpit these seuen yeres without any grete contradiction but it may be said this is your houre Wee may loke for great truth in the body of your discourse when your begnnyng is so farced with lyes This cause was not taken in hand to disproue your libertie but rather to prouue that your libertie shold not be made necessity as the lettar of a certaine bishop written to à noble man witnessith And to teach you to use your libertie to profit and edification according to those sayings all things are laufull for me but all things do not edifie Let no man seke his owne profit but an other mans neyther to conuell for so yow terme it the obediens to the Prince and her lawes but to teach cheife obedience to god and his word nor to discredit and condemne them that can away with them for wee allwais iudged of them as S. Paull willith they staÌ„d or fall to their Lord for if wee had condemnid them wee wold neuer haue coÌ„municated with them but to discharg our own consciences and to labor for the synceritie as well in rites as in doctrin As for the charitable bearing wich yow speake of doth litill appere in these sayiÌ„gs subscribe or be depriued wear or preach not This is but small bearing The small vveight of theyr reasons and argumentes so set out theyr cause so harde to defende vvithlearnyng so many graue vvryters of iudgement agaynste them the matter sullye debated by the best learned men of the Realme of late vvith thorder of the counsayle talzen in the tyme of blessed memorie Kyng Edvvarde and fully concluded caused diuers men beyng yet offended vvith suche vnaduised vvrytynges to holde theyr pennes vvithout more confuting or disprouyng the same as vvas easye for them to do partly stayed by the fyrst part of Salomont counsayle Ne respondeas stulto iuxta stultitiam suam ne efficiaris ei similis Yea moreouer charitie borne to the aucthours of such vvrytynges moued some men to lzepe pacience and the counsell of S. Paule helde others in silence vvheras he chargeth his scholer Timothe thus Stultas ineruditas questiones respue setens eas parere pugnas porro seruum Domini non oportet pugnare sed placidum esse erga omnes propensum ad docendum tolerantem malos cum mansuètudine erudientem eos qui obsistunt si quando det illis Deus â—oenitentiam ad a gnoscenduÌ„ veritatem resipiscant a diaboli laqueo captiab eo ad ipsius voluntatem Foolyshe and vnlearned questions put from thee remembryng that thei do but gender stryse for the seruaunt of the Lorde must not striue but must be peaceable vnto all men and apt to teache and one that can suffer the euill in melzenes and can infourme them that resist yf that God at any tyme vvyll geue them repentaunce for to knovve the trueth that they may comme to them selues agayne out of the snare of the deuyll vvhch are novve taken of hym at hys vvyll These be wordes of course common to all them that go about to ouertrhow any cause wich because they are brought in without prose wee may stand to the deniall The argumeÌ„ts wear more weightie than yow cold auoid and whan yow haue by Gods word confuted them than yow may more iustlie call them weake The cause so easye to defend with lerning and scripture that yow neuar durst assaile it so many graue writers against yow the matter neuar fully debated by the best lerned in this Realme but of necessitie enioyned them caused yow to staye your pen vntill now their necessarie defeÌ„ce caused yow to write soÌ„thing least yow should be thought to haue nothinge Yf the rule of S. Paull had bene kept this question of popish Ceremonies had not bene thus ernestlie moued nor so sharplie folowd But Paulls place is wroÌ„glie alleged by yow for that he meanith questioÌ„s of genelogyes c. wich pertayne nothing to doctrin nor disceplyne in churchs of Christ The question of rites and ceremonies yow knowe Paull him self and the writers both olde and newe haue diligentlie handled and therfore may not be thought a foolish and vnlerned question To enforce this text at this tyme in the particuler appliyng therof shal be spared yet for hope of their amendement uuho hauer disorderlye behaued them selues To exagerat the matter agaynste them vvith muche alleaging learned mens iudgementes many dead some yet alyue othervvise then to in struct theÌ„ by a fevv reported shal also be spared as it vvould haue ben vvyshed the matter vvhooly myght rather vvith scilence haue ben styll buryed But novv the prouocation of a treatise so solemlye aduouched so confidentlye affirmed of very late so publiquely by print diuulged and dispearsed hath made this vvryter novve to thynlze it hygh tymn tocall to remenbraunce the latter part of Salomons fentence RespoÌ„de stulto iuxta stultitiaÌ„ suaÌ„ ne videatur sibi sapieÌ„s Not yet profossyng by this examination to say halfe so much as myght he spolzen in the comprehension af the cause nor talzyng so much aduauntage agaynst that inconsiderat vvrytyng as it myght deserue to be charged but briefely to put to the aucthours consideration the vuealznes of the reasons the sophistication of the arguments of that discourse unuuorthy of it selfe to saye ihe truetht to be once aunsuuered as beyng so uuritten as euery man but such as be eyther to parcially bent to the cause or for lalze of learnyng can not expende the substaunce of the Vurityng maye perceyue that it muste nedes fall to ruyne decaye of credite of it selfe though no man should bende any force at it houu soeuer in the heate uuich is nouu talzen thought to be nuittyly grauely inuincibly uurytten but uuorthy in deede to be put out in the name of such uuhom it uuould speciali defende A good deuine shold spare at all tymes to inforce textes of scriptures wich he ought rather rightlie to applie according to the meaning of the holie gost As yow deligiht in ynkehorne terms
and borrwed spechis as exagerat diuulged dispensed comprehension expend concor de infarce expect ītimate c. so somtime yow vse them as one not well acquainted with thē Whan yow say publickly diuulged Non loqueris vulgo yow speke not to the common people yow can speke twise as much as yow doe O noble rhetorician yow willnot take so muche aduantage against the inconsiderat writing it is not worthie anye answrere it will faull to ruine of it selfe Nowe wold to god yow wold haue writ as muchas yow could and are hable Yf ye aslize me uuhom I coulde thinlze to be under the protection thereof Surely I can not see that diuers suche as be learned and commōly iudged to be amongest this number can muche ioy to fight under that banner or o runne uuith them to that marlze they shoote at For it is certaine that many uuhō this smale route named London Ministers uuoulde haue ioyned uuith them for their more honestie be farre from their determonations in this question neither so handling it nor so uuolde conclude in this cause as they do VVho houusoeuer some of them do yet a litle stay at the using of this apparel in themselues yet be not of their iudgement to condemne the thyngs of uuyclzednes nether in them selues nor in the use of them as the Ministers in this Church of Englande be caled no uue to uueare them And therefore houusoeuer they uuoulde uuyshe a libertie to theyr ouune consciences reserued tyll they may see more in the cause yet be they farre of to condemne theyr brothers uuhose consciences can serue them for obedience salze to use them Yow wold fayne perswade mē that no lerned men are of oure iudgment but wee kowe that the gretist part of the best lernid yea of them that weare them were of this opiniō No man to our knowleg cōdemnith the things nor the vsers of them of wickednes And yow your selfe in your examination often affirm that wee graunt them to be indifferent And therfore I must nedes uuype a great many out of their brotherohed in their singularities enteyned in this last uuriting and say Thei be but a ueri feuue in them selues other then such as haue ben eyther unlearnedly brought up most in prophane occupations or suche as be puffed up in an arroganere of them selues peraduenture chargeable to suche vanities of assertions as at this tyme I uuyll spare to charge them God graunt they do not by this degree fall to the sectes of Anabaptistes or Libertines uuhere unto some uuyse and zelous men of their ouune frendes Patrones feare they do malze poste haste one day openly to professe Yf yow with all the lerned of your side wold procure us a free and a generall disputacion to haue the matter quietly debated ād indifferentlie iudged yow shoulde se a great nōber redie to defēded our cause with their tongs whom yow now blot out with your penn for it is well known that not onelie a few vnlerned brought vp in prophane occupations as yow vncharitable and slaūderuslie report but a gret nomber of wise godlie and lernid men such as haue bene and are the eldest prearchers in England neuar stayned with any recantacion or subscription brought upp in all kind of lerning both of artes and toungs such as haue the name not onelie at home but also in forraine nations to be in the nomber of the best lerned in the realm agree with us in this cause and of them partly haue wee lernid this iudgment Wherfore yow haue lost more credit with all indifferent men by this your slanderus defacing of vs then all your examination is able to pourchase to your cause Of the same spirit it procedith that yow charg us with post hast towards the sectes of Anabaptists and Libertins wich ar fo farr frome such detestable heresies as yow are frome christian charitie so to iudge of vs. As ar the argumēts of multitude customes orders and lerning are fet from the schole of papists whom by this kind of reasoning yow more confirme in their errour than strēghthen your cause or weaken ours To be called from an occupation to the mynisterie of the church is no more reproch nowe to men mete for that function then it was to Petar Paull and the rest of the apostoles Yf they were vnmete than the Bishopes are to be blamed for admitting them and most of all for retayning and daylie multiplyng others whom nothing ells but a capp and a Surples do make cōmendable VVhereupon the aduersaires af true religion can uuinne no great reioyce at these mens ouersightes as being but a uery feuue and counted in deede none of the sincere and learned protestauntes houusoeuer for a tyme thei seemed to be amongest us For though they be gone out from us yet they uuere belylze neuer of us So that the aduersaries shall haue the uuhole state of the Clergie in place and reputation for learnyng uuy sdome and grauitie concordely ioyned to be uuholy against them to defend the sinceritie of the Gospel though a feuue of these malze suche adoo in our Churche as stories malze mention uuas euer uuont some to ryse in sundry tymes to trouble the state of their Churches uuhere they duuelt And good it uuere that these Englis he Louanistes dyd no to muche delight them selues uuith any hye reioysinges as though the Prince uuoulde for disprouyng of a feuue counterfaites dislylze the uuhole state of the rest of the Cleargie uuho shall by Gods grace be able ynough to defende the true religion of the Gospell uuhiehe they maye heare houue the Prince doth professe dayly and openly to maintaine and defende to the uttermost iote of the uuorde of God uuith renoncing asuuell all forrayne aucthoritie as all forrayne doctrine not surely grounded upon this stable roclze of Goods uuorde Their faunuing flatterie prefaces their greatly conceyued hopes their busie dispraisyng of better learned then them selues be can not so be uuitche uuise mens heades or hartes but they cā discerne trueth frō falsehood deuotion frō superstitiōpapistrye from the Gospell tirany frō discipline Christ frō Antichrist And therefore sirs if ye lzneuue houne feuue these are by uuhom ye delyght to slaunder the learned honue lytle uue thinlze the rest of the Apostles discrepited though Iudas fell out frō them and houue these be regarded and accompted of so longe as they thus continue and finally houue lytle uue shall ioy of them and use them to take the Gospell in defence agaynst you Ye uuoulde not be so busie to infarce in your boolzes the reproche of these men to lade other uuith enuye the breath of uuhose penues ye shall neuer be able to aunsuuere say and uuryte uuhat ye can yourboolzes so fast and hastyly sent oner in great nūbers beyng not muche feared for any substaunce that is in them may for a time relieue you to your sustentation may be gaineful to your Printers Pedlours may peraduenture ieoparde your frendes uuithin
martyr to be vnderstode which if they were obserued wee shold not long be trobled whith these matters The examiner It is a pitifull case to see howe you trouble your selues in comparing Christ preachyng the will of his father and the Phariseis teaching their owne traditions as if any man inforceth nowe mans lawe as part of Gods diuine seruice or as if these orders vppon necessitie of saluacion must be receyued â—d Cassul and Gods blessed worde troden vnder foote Yet sainct Augustine is thus bolde touching the obseruation of profitable rites in Christes Churche that he thynketh the contempteus breaker of Ecclesiasticall orders to be corrected as transgressours of Gods lawes The Aunsuuerer It is a pittefull case to see yow so stoutlie maintaine precepts of meÌ„ against the word of god as though all precepts and tradicions vnlesse they be inforced as a part of gods dyuine seruice or vpon necessitie of saluacion are to be receyued What can the Papist say more in defense of mens traditions The Pharisies as is touched before made not much more of their tradicions then the tradicions of their elders though they were as yow are more zealus for them then for gods lawe And as for S. Augustin his rule first proue these to be profitable and then vse then spare not The examiner The Apostles you say preached not the dreames of their owne heades Ast. 15 and yet for all that they made orders for the Churche whiche continued their times and season whereof we reade not their particuler commission 1. Cor. â—â— 14 True it is as you report that S. Paule willed not men to followe his deuises neither preached he him selfe at any tyme. What then Did he not appoint temporall rites in the Churche which he had not VerbatiÌ„ expressely at his masters haÌ„ds and whiche nowe ceasse and are not in vse Ephi lib 3 Tom 1â— the lyke is said of suche doynges of the other Apostoles whose constitutions were altered after their death The Aunsuuerer You shall neuer be able to proue the Apostoles made any orders or constitutions but they were agreable to the generall rules of Scripture before often rehersed The Examiner You conclude thus because these thinges haue no commaundement nor grounde in Gods worde therefore you refuse them Fyrst special commaundement needeth not in this part of Ecclesiasticall discipline The edification order decencie authoritie of supreme magistrates haue grouÌ„de sufficieÌ„t in the newe Testament and olde Last of all you should haue proued that they had no grounde in Scriptures But that thing youe neuer once touched but rannea rouyng vpon the Maior to bleare the simple Christians eyes as if you had sayd much of the matter when you neuer come towarde it The Aunsvverer It is trew all edisication order and decencie and authoritie of magistrates haue groundes in the Scripture but your apparrell hath not anie aedification deceÌ„cie or order nor lawfull authoritie for wee haue no power but to edifie Thefore it hath no grownd in the Scripture and all this hath bene spoken of before The Examiner Passyng from this fourth reason you frame an obiection vnto your selues as it liketh your selues and aunswere vnto it as you liste Your obiection is That the Prince commaunding a thing indifferent and profitable for the of the Churche may be added must be obayed whereupon you say it must folowe you disobeyng therein must both your selues offende and be a stumblyng blocke for others In aunswrere herevnto howe sclenderly you excuse yore selues aÌ„d auoide blame howe daungerously you passe ouer other matters it had not ben greatly amisse to haue quietly left but that this place as well as others would haue something spoken of it The authoritie you affirme of a Prince in these thinges indifferent is to commaunde their good vse and forbyd the contrary Vpon which your resolution a man may reason with you thus The good vse of indifferent thinges is gods commaundemeÌ„t whiche a Prince must execute But this may be a good vse of these orders now taken as the contrary is not proued by you so consequently the magistrate may call vpon the execution of the same Touching the Minor this much we haue of your graunt that a tyme may be when these thinges in Christes Churche may haue their good vse But whether that tyme be nowe or nay there are preiudices against you of the like tyme heretofore of the wholle parliament of the Clergie of the most part of protestants papistes The aunsuuerer The aunswere to the obiection is better than you can take awaye for all your glorious wordes remembring the former protestation that wee neuer graunted these things to be indifferent in their vse then admitting they were neuer so idiffereÌ„t yet aedificatioÌ„ must be sought in them ChristiaÌ„ liberty must not be infringed for theÌ„ c. This is oure aunswere to the obyectioÌ„ But your fine reason maye not be omitted The good vse of indifferent things is gods coÌ„maÌ„demeÌ„t Which the Prince must execute but this may be a god vse of these orders now taken therfore the magistrat may call vpon the execution of them First you craue no lesse then two principalls to helpe your weake cause th one that these thiÌ„gs are indifferent the other that there may be a good vse of them Your Minor semith to bring a fallaci whith yt there maye be a good vse of things ergo there is a good vse And this is called a posse ad esse from that which may be to that which is But yow saye wee graunt your Minor that there may be a tyme whan these things in Christes church maye haue ther good vse If this had bene grauÌ„ted yow yet yow rune into a nother fallacye by abusing and stretching the graunt à dicto simpliciter ad secundum quid These orders may be vsed of some whose conscieÌ„ces are not entangled ergo of all contrarie to their iudgement and science or these orders may be vsed at some tyme and for a tyme ergo at all times and al wayes you are not ignorant that the circunstances of persones and times varie the case But yow saye there are preiudicis against vs of what of the lyke time before Kynge Eduardes tyme is not lyke for the gospel hath bene longar preached of the whole perliament yow know what the Papistes auÌ„swer to this of the learned and godly They wish they re abolishing with vs. of the moste part of ProtestaÌ„tes and Papistes we are ashamed to heare a Protestant alleadge such popish praeiudices prescription of time of councell of clergie of multitude of Protestantes and Papistes The examiner As for that power whiche you expounde God hath geuen to Princes whether it containe all their aucthoritie and iurisdiction as you rehearse it it shall not be narrowly scanned at this time Neither thankes be geuen to God doth the Prince of pleasure but for furthercommoditie of her subiectes require this subiection of yours which howe lawfully you