you captiously gybe and cauill for that belongeth not to supreme gouernment But that he is so the supreme gouernour in ouerséeing the consecration and deliuerie of the true foode wherewith the people of God ought to be fedde that euen he ouerséeth the féeder himselfe And for this cause the King is called of the Prophete the nourishing father and Quéenes are named Nourses that although the ministerie of féeding pertaine to the ministers yet the prouision for the foode the ouersight that the children of God be duely fedde with the right milke with the true bread and water of lyfe belongeth to the Princes And therefore haue they the name of nourses not to nourishe them in ciuill matters and corporall fâ—…de onely but as in ciuil so in â—…acte verbi in the milke of the worde of God also Is this only the cherishing of the good childe by giuing landes reuenewes maintenaunce and lyuing to the Churche Is this onely the displing of the frowarde childâ—… or as ye call it the punishing of the heretike No M. Stapleton Lyra his exposition and yours doe not agrée He sayth they are nourses what to doe to feede whom the faithfull ones wherewith with the milke of the worde whose worde euen the worde and sacraments of God. Wherof sith the ministery and execution belongeth not vnto them but to the ministers it followeth necessarily thervpon that the prouision direction appointment care and ouersight which is the supreme gouernement belongeth to them And this is that which Lyrâ—… confesseth the B. vrgeth of Constantine that he was such another nourse as did kepe defend maintaine vpholde and feede the pore faithfull ones of Christ yea caried them in his bosome as it were and procured them to be fedde did set forth proclamations not only against false religion but also to set forth to exhort and allure vnto the Christian faith caused not only the Idolatrous religion to bee suppressed but caused also on the other parte the true knowledge and religion of Christ to bee brought in and planted among his people and did not only make lawes for punishing heretikes and Idolaters but also reformed all manner abuses about Gods seruice Thus sayth the Bishop out of Eusebius did Constantine play the nourses part Nowe what saye you to all this M. Stapleton All this of Constantine say you is graunted and maketh nothing for you Whether it maketh for vs or no we will not contende But it maketh for the matter and being graunted it maketh vp the matter For and ye will graunt thus much from your heart inwarde which ye nowe graunt from the téeth outwarde by compulsion of the manifest truth ye might come home well ynough with a wannion and bestow your wit and trauell better than thus to graunt vnto and yet with pieuishnesse to wythstande the manifest truth of the matter The Quéenes Maiesties othe requireth no more of you to giue to hir than here ye graunt to giue to Constantine to set foorth Christes religion to make lawes and constitutions not only of punishment but of reformation of all maner abuses about Gods seruice to prouide that the Church be fed with Gods worde and in all pointes aboue sayde shewe her selfe a very nource of the Church committed to hir gouernement as the childe is to the nourse What one thing ecclesiasticall is not here comprehended or can ye shewe cause why she ought not to haue the same authoritie in hir dominions as well as Constantine to whome ye graunt it had in his if ye saye she doth not this but the contrarie this is but your wicked slaunder M. Stapleton But graunt hir hir interest and then trie that Hir right is one thing and whether she dischargeth well the same or no is another thing Graunt hir hir right as you doe to Constantine and then spare not to improue what ye can proue amisse Nowe hauing graunted thus much which in dede concludeth vp all the matter least he shoulde vtterly be discrâ—…dited of all his friendes he goeth about so much as he can in wrangling of wordes to defeate once againe all his former graunt according to his practise in the Chapter before For where the Bishop by the example of Constantyne proueth the Prince to be herein not only a nourse to the people but also to bee appoynted vnto them of God as it were the common or vniuersall Byshop as Eusebius testifieth of Constantine and Constantine to other Byshops calleth himselfe a Byshop signifying his carefull ouersight ouer all his people in setting forth Gods true religion Maister Stapleton first snappeth at thys worde Byshoppe secondlye hée challengeth the Byshoppe for curtalling Eusebius sentence And when Eusebius sayeth he calleth hym as it were a common or vniuersall Byshoppe I suppose yee meane not that hee was a Byshop in deede For your selfe confesse that Princes Bishops offices are farre distincted and disseuered that the one ought not to break into the office of the other The Bishops meaning is euident master Stap. and so are his words But your meaning is to brabble to tickle in the Readers heade a suspition that he confounded these offices Is there no difference betwéene these sayings he was as it were a Bishop and he was a Bishop in dede Yes M. St. and ye were not a very wrangler in dede ye might perceyue by these wordes as it were he plainly ment and as it were spake it that he was no B. in deede And what though he were no Bishop in dede in the function and office of a Bishops ministerie no more was he also a nourse in deede nor the people were suckling babes in deede nor the worde of God is milke in deede yet as these things be not falsly spoken but being borowed speaches in their senses import not onely a true but a more excellent vnderstanding than the bare wordes vsually betoken so the Emperour being named to be as it were a common or vniuersall Bishop and yet in deede being no Bishop it argueth that he had this name bicause of his common and vniuersall gouernment ouersight and care ouer all Bishops and causes Ecclesiasticall This shift therefore to slinke away from the manifest meaning of the wordes by threaping on the Bishop this kindnesse that he shoulde meane to proue him a very Bishop in dede is a very meane shift though it haue in dede a shrewde meaning Master Stapleton And if you did so meane say you Eusebius himself would soone confounde you if you reherse Constantines whole sentence that he spake to the Bishops What a good year meane ye M. St. ye vrge this meaning further than néedes that the B. should meane to make the Emperor a Bishop in the Bishoply ministerie therfore curtalled as ye call it Eusebius sentences If Eusebius sentence set it downe as whole as ye list confound them that meane to confound these offices it will neuer soone or late confound the B. the popish Bishops
mightie defences That which was pulled downe thou haste made vp agayne and haste made the same whole and sounde agayne with a conuenient knitting togither of all the partes and members To be shorte thou haste saythe Nicephorus to the Emperour established true religion and godlynesse with spirituall butresses namely the doctrine and rules of the auncient fathers These are the Bishops allegations out of Nicephorus for this Princes dealing in ecclesiastical matters Wherin are comprehended as eche man may sée all the chiefe ecclesiasticall causes The true religion the sincere fayth the diuine doctrine godlynesse making constitutions the fathers rules the catholike vniuersal church Neither ascribeth he to the Prince herein a power LegaÌ„tine froÌ„ Priest Byshop Patriarke or Pope muche lesse to be their onely executioner but vnder God he giueth him a supreme gouernement in calling him not onely the defender but the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and stay the guyde the restorer the clenser the establisher the entrencher and maker vp of all these things On the contrarie the puller downe and banisher of newe deuises counterfeit naughtie vnlawfull and impure doctrines of horrible errors and heretical deprauers And this his chief dealing herein to be most seemely for him and chiefly belonging to his princely office Dothe all this M. Stap. little or nothing further our cause if it doe not then it lyttle or nothing hindreth yours Why graunte ye not then vnto it if ye graunte but thus muche we wil vrge you little or nothing further for what is not héere conteined that is either conteined in the issue betwéene the Bishop and M. Feck or in the othe of the O. Maiesties supremacie that ye refuse to take But as light as yâ—… would séeme to make of this it pincheth you and ye dare not grauÌ„t nor answere any sentence therof Onely ye giue a snatche at a worde and bayte at the bishops marginal note vpoÌ„ these former allegatioÌ„s Wherin ye play like Alciates dogge at whom when one hurled a stone he let go him froÌ„ whom the stone came wreaked his anger on the stone So set you vpon the marginall note that in déede hitteth you a good souse but the allegations from wheÌ„ce the marginal note doth come ye let alone and fal to tugging of the note Only as I saide ye snatche at a word as though all the weight of the marginall note were setched only from thence and not from all these sentences But say you M. Home will not so leese his long allegation out of Nicephorus He hath placed a note in the margine sufficient â—… trow to conclude his principall purpose And that is this The Princes supremacie in repayring religion decayed This is indeede a ioly marginall note But where findeth M Horne the same in his text for soothe of this that Nicephorus calleth the Emperour the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and stay in so horrible wauering c. of the worde supreme anchor he concludeth a supremacie But O more than childishe follie Coulde that craftie Cooper of thys allegation informe you no better master Horne was he no better seene in Grammer or in the profession of a schole master than thus foully and fondely to misse the true interpretation of the Latine worde for what other is suprema anchora in good Englishe than the laste anchor the laste refuge the extreme holde and staye to rest vpon As suprema verba doe signifie the laste wordes of a man in hys laste wyll as summa dies the laste daye supremum iudicium the laste iudgement with a number of lyke Phrases So suprema anchora is the laste anchor signifying the laste holde and staye as in the perill of tempeste the laste refuge is to caste anchor In suche a sense Nicephorus calleth this Emperour the laste the mightie and the holy anchor or stay in so horrible wauering and errour Signifying that nowe by him they were stayed from the storme of schisme as from a storme in the sea by casting the anchor the shippe is stayed But by the metaphore of an anchor to conclude a supremacie is as wyse as by the Metaphore of a Cowe to conclude a Saddle For as well dothe a saddle fitte a Cowe as the qualitie of an anchor resemble a supremacie But by suche beggerly shiftes a barren cause muste be vpholded First all is saide by the way of amplification to extoll the Emperour as in the same sentence he calleth him the sixt element reaching aboue Aristotels fifte body ouer the foure elementes with suche lyke Then all is but a Metaphore which were it true proueth not nor concludeth but expresseth and lightneth a truth Thirdly the Metaphore is ill translated and last of all worsse applied A sirra M. St. héere is a whot sturre and highe wordes A man would thinke all is nowe answered to the full and yet when all coÌ„mes to all héere is nothing of all this a do agaynst any one sentence of the Byshops allegations But the poore marginall note and one poore séelie worde of all these long allegations shall abye for this geare First ye say M. Stapl. that M. Horne will not so leese his long allegation out of Nicephorus What ye meane by leesing I know not But it appeareth he may leâ—…e or finde them all for any thing ye wil answere to them Ye slinke for the nonce to the marginall note which is this The Princes supremacie in repayring religion decayed This is in deede say you a ioly marginal note but where findeth M. Horne the same in his texte forsoothe of this that Nicephorus calleth the Emperour the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and stay in so horrible wauering of the worde supreme anchor he concludeth a supremacie Is there nothing M. Stap. in all these allegations that ye coulde sée wherfore the Bishop set downe his marginal note of the Princes supremacie in repayring religion decayed but onely this sentence yea onely that worde do not all the other sentences importe as muche as this that he is the guyde of the profession of our fayth the restorer of the catholike and vniuersall Church the banisher from the Church of all vnlawful and impure doctrine the clenser of the temple with the worde of truth froÌ„ choppers and changers of the diuine doctrine and from hereticall deprauers thereof That he is the entrencher of true religion with mightie defences That he is the establisher of the doctrine and maker of constitutions for the same that he is the maker vp agayne the maker whole and sounde agayne of al that was pulled downe Might not all this to an indifferent reader be thought sufficient to answere the marginal note and comprehende in all poyntes as muche as the note yea though ye quite set aside the sentence and word wherat ye wrangle And yet with M. Stap. this one sentence must beare the weight of all that the bishop alleaged the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and stay in so
if ye meane by this visitation the outward execution of the Church lawes and decrees confirmed by the ciuill magistrate roborated with hisedicts and executed with his sword For in such sort many Emperors Princes haue fortified streÌ„gthned the decrees of Bishops made in Councels both general National as we shall in the processe see And this in christian Princes is not denied but coÌ„mended What the state of the question in hande is the reader hath often hearde How be it such is your importunitie that ye will neuer leaue your olde warbling But for the full satisfying of the Reader berein let him once againe resort to the issue that M. Feck requireth of the bishop to direct all hys foure meanes vnto wherin he would be satisfied And that is conteyned in these flat wordes VVhen your L. shall be able by any of these foure meanes to make proofe vnto me that any Emperour or Empresse King or Queene may claime or take vpon them any such gouernment in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes I shall herein yeelde c. This then is the state of the question betwéen theÌ„ whether any Prince may take vpon him any such gouernment in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes as the Queenes Maiestie doth Now wheresoeuer the B. proueth anything by the foure fore said meanes that any Prince hath taken vpon him any such gouernement as doth the Queenes Maiestie in causes ecclesiasticall there the bishop kéepeth himselfe to the state of the question in hande and satisfieth M. Fecknams issue What the bishop hath done in the two foresaide meanes is euident by that that is past let others iudge thereon Here the B. entring into the other two meanes prefixeth this issue againe before him to leuell his proues by The issue is now that by any of these two meanes remayning he shall proue that anye Prince may claime or take vpon him any such gouernment as the Queenes Maiestie in Ecclesiasticall matters doth And where the B. by any of these two meanes shall proue that any Princes haue taken â—…pon them any such gouernment in ecclesiasticall matters as the Q. Maiestie doth there the B. digresseth nothing from his question also satisfieth M. Feck â–ª demaunde This then being the state of the question betwéene them the proofe of any such gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes the B. first setteth here down the particulars that plainly declare what gouernment this is that the Q. Maiestie taketh on hir wherto he must direct his proues So that now that question in hande is this What is that gouernment in what particulars consisteth it that the Q. maiestie taketh on hir Which when here the B. doth specifie in the last Chapter M. Stapl. himselfe commended the bishop for his orderly going to worke therein and now crieth out here is a state framed farre square from the question in had whether it be so or no whether it be not plain dealing of the B. and plain warbling of M. St. let any man be indifferent iudge betwéene them But M. Stapl. sayth the question is not nowe betweene M. Feck and you whether the Prince may visite reforme and correct all maner of persons for all maner of schismes heresies and offences in Christian religion True in déede M. St. the question is not nowe whether the Prince may doe these things that you rehearse or no but the question that is nowe in hand being deducted out of the words of the issue any such gouernment demaundeth first what kinde of gouernment that is that the Q. maiestie doth claime and take vpon hir to the which question the B. aunswereth the gouernment that hir highnesse taketh on hir is such and such c. And so the state of the question is knowne what kinde of gouernment the B. must proue And looke where he proueth any such gouernment there M. Feckenhams request is aunswered And if he can not prooue any such then M. Feckenham may complaine that he is not satisfied And as he is bounde to performe his promise of thankfull yéelding so haue you no cause to warble at this the B. diligent enumeration of those particularities of the principal question least both ye should wander in an obscure generalitie also coÌ„trarie your late vaunt that ye go to worke plainly truly and particularly But sée your falshoode how chaunce ye set not downe the Bishops wordes as he spake them but abridge them 〈◊〉 of thrée parts of them and more crying Here is a state framed farre square from the question in hande Here is a false subtiltie of you M. St. farre square from any truth in hand or out of hande The Bishops wordes are these The gouernment that the Q. Maiestie moste iustly taketh vpon hir in eccles causes is the guiding caring prouiding ordering directing and ayding the ecclesiasticall state within hir dominions to the furtherance maintenance and setting forth of true religion vnitie and quietnesse of Christes Church ouerseeing visiting refourming restrayning amending and correcting all maner persons with all maner errours superstitions heresies schismes abuses offences contemptes and enormities in or about Christes religion whatsoeuer In place of all these wordes euery one béeing materiall to shewe the particular things wherein hir gouernment consisteth that she claymeth you onely for all these set downe these wordes The Prince may visite reforme and correcte all maner of persons for all maner of heresies schisines and offences in Christian religion As though the Bishops particular words specifying the poynts of hir gouernmeÌ„t conteined no more but this Neuerthelesse had the bishop specified no more but these words that ye thus contracte yet had he not swarued from the issue betweene them Any suche gouernment nor from the directâ—… answering to the question declaring any suche gouernment chiefly the chiefe poynts therof that the Quéenes maiestie claymeth and you refuse to yéelde vnto hir For euen these particularities that you set out ye will not graunte without an exception and that is in effecte vtterly to denie them althoughe in daliaunce of spéeche saying in some sense ye would onely séeme to mollifie them For what else meane these your words VVhich perchaunce in some sense might somewhat be borne withall if ye meane by this visitation and reformation the outwarde execution of the Churche lawes and decrees confirmed by the ciuill magistrate roborated with his edicts and executed with his sworde for in suche sorte many Emperours and Princes haue fortified and strengthened the decrees of Byshops made in Councels bothe generall and nationall as we shall in the processe see And this in Christian Princes is not denied but commended Christian Princes haue héere gotten afaire catche by this your graunt and commendation to become your seruants your souldiours your slaughtermen only executing with their swords that you with your authoritie decrée and appoint vnto them Now forsooth a fayre supreme authoritiâ—… But let vs sée how this doth hang togither Ye graunt theÌ„ to visite reforme
the truth in this poynt and in so manie other Where in yée shew your selfe not onely discontented subiectes but in heart verie rebellions nor repining onely with discontented stomackes but with open sayings writings and other seditions attemptes agaynst the obedience ye owe to our gracious Prince and Countrey Ye call hir gracious but God defende hir gracious person from your vngracious practises and from all such Iudas kisses of hollow hearted flattring Papistes For howe vngraclously ye minde hir highnesse and your Countrey all that heare your sugred wordesnowe speaking as though that butter would not melt in your mealy mouth and read your common place withall collected of your most shamefull and notorious slaunders that ye rayse vpon so gracious a prince and your natiue Countrey would meruayle how that dubble tongue of yours coulde speake such contraries But ye are a Merchant for the nonce ye studie Louaine diuinitie that is to say to beare fire in one hand water in another to laugh in ones face and strike him with a dagger to the heart as Ioab did with Abner and Amasa But let vs sée how trimly ye cloke this geare I dare say neuer a Frier in Louaine can play the sinoother hypocrite For besides say you that we ought absolutely to obey God more than man and preferre the truth which our sauiour him selfe protesteth to be encouraging all the faythfull to professe the truth and giuing them to wit that in defending that they defende Christ himselfe before all other worldly respectes whatsoeuer What a godly pretence of zeale is here to God were it not for pure loue they heare to God master Stapleton promiseth for them as theyr spokes man they would obey their Prince Nowe surely this séemeth to procéede of an holy zeale But what is that they meane here by this absolute obedience to God God may be absolutely obeyed and the Prince also next to God conditionally be obeyed as the chiefe setter foorth of Gods absolute obedience God in his holie worde neuer spake any thing against obedience to the Prince whereby any Hypocrite might pretende a scruple of disobeying God if next vnder God he obeyed his Prince but God in his worde commaundeth vs so to obey him What meane they then to alleage God for theyr disobedience Forsooth here is a mystery ye must vnderstande by God the Pope for so he is called Dominus deus noster Papa Our Lorde God the Pope ▪ and their obedience to the Prince herein is flatte agaynst this Gods obedience And bicause master Stapleton and his fellowes are priests of this Gods making they must therefore disobey theyr Prince And this is the very matter So Thomas Becked died for Gods cause and what was that forsooth the franchisies of the Popes Church For all that is for the Pope and Popery and the Popish priests honours is only for God for Christ and for the truth when it is for the Deuill as soone as indéede it is for him the Authour of all such hypocriticall disobedience and for their owne filthie lucre But God is a good God he must beare the name of all ▪ The Papistes being thus by theyr Attourney master Stapleton excused of theyr Disobedience least this shoulde not be thought sufficient There is yet behinde one other proper waye of excusing themselues and that is to fall in accusing the Bishop that therby the papists may be thought the more excusable Beside all this I say sayth master Stapleton whosoeuer will but indifferently consider the matter shall see that M. Horne himselfe in specifying here at large the Queenes Maiesties gouernment by the statute intended doth no lesse in effect abridge the same by dissembing silence than the Catholikes doe by open and plaine contradiction Ye charge the B. here with abridging the Queenes Maiesties gouernement by dissembling silence This is your former quarrell M. Stap. yet could ye hitherto proue nothing omitted concerning the verie gouernment it selfe and therefore ye wrangled about other clauses of debarring the gouernement from any foreine person and of vniting the gouernment to the crowne of Englande which bicause the B. set not downe as parcels of the gouernment which ech man séeth are none ye chalenge him of dissembling silence and do as one that either hath nothing else to saye or that this is some such notable triumph that ye thought good to end your first booke therewith as it were a gyrde to the Bishop and a pricke fastened in the Readers minde to cause him mislyke of the Bishops dealing and suspect the whole cause thereby This indéede were somewhat oratorlyke if it were not so apparant an vntruth that euery body might behold the falshood therof the malice of you and the impertinencie of the quarrell But as you thereby are able crie it out as fast and as lowde as ye will to proue nothing in word or déede against the Bishop and therefore run to byous quarrels of silence and abridging in effect so your selfe while ye would excuse your selfe as not discontented nor repining subiectes accuse your selfe without any dissembling at all And are not ashamed to confesse that ye withstande hir Maiesties gouernment by open and plaine contradiction Though therefore your accusation of the Bishop be to any indifferent man to consider the matter no excuse of your disobedience yet any that shall indifferently consider the matter yea though he were som what partiall on your side sith so openly and plainely ye dare open your contradiction thereto will holde you altogither vnexcusable and iudge you on your owne mouth But let vs sée why ye are thus importune with the Bishop to accuse him so often nowe in the ende of this booke whether ye haue any newe matter to lay to his charge that ye haue not yet vttred how truly ye accuse him For say you whereas the statute and the othe to the which all must sweare expresseth a supreme gouernment in all things and causes without exception M. Horne taking vpon him to specifie the particulars of this generall decree and amplifying that little which he giueth to the Queenes Maiestie with copie of wordes full statutelike he leaueth yet out and by that leauing out taketh from the meaning of the statute the principall cause ecclesiasticall ▪ And what is that you aske forsooth iudgement determining and approuing of doctrine which is true and good and which is otherwise For what is more necessarie in the Church than that the supreme gouernour thereof shoulde haue power in all doubtes and controuersies to decide the truth and to make an ende of questioning this in the statute by M. Hornes silence is not comprised And yet who doubteth that of all things and causes ecclesiasticall this is absolutely the chiefest Why M. St. are ye nowe of a contrarie opinion to that if ye be remembred that ye were before for then ye reasoned that omission and silence was no deniall but concluded the contrarie Qui
tâ—…cet consentire videtur for he that holdeth his peace seemeth to consent Howbeit I crie you mercie the case is altered For there ye defend your client here ye oppugne your aduersarie And belike ye haue some priuiledge from Rome euer to turne the matter so as may best serue your turne But and it were not for this your priuiledge surely I woulde further aske ye howe chaunce so soone ye haue forgotten your late vaunt and euen in this leafe wherin ye crake that ye walke not in generall wordes but restrayne your selfe to particulars now stande quarrelling about the generall words of the statute and mocke the B. for particulars if ye shalâ—… laye forth your priuiledge to doe this when ye thinke ye may get some aduauntage thereby yet I thinke your priuiledge stretcheth not both to wrest the state of the question in hande and of the issue to the statute and to wrest and belâ—…e the statute as ye please and thereof to gather what false conclusion ye lyst For first ye do the Bishop wrong â—…th Maister Feckenham hath set vp his issue to be prooued Anye suche gouernement in Ecclesiasticall causes to driue the bishop from thence to the wordes of the statute that expresse it in all ecclesiasticall causes Herein ye offer the bishop wrong For by this issue betwéene them though the Bishop in euery Prince continually alleage not ensamples in euery Ecclesiasticall cause but nowe and then in all nowe and then in some for your Popes daily encroched on Princes and at length got the mâ—…st of all yet hath the Bishop proued and satisfied the vertue of this issue Any such gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes Howbeit ye do him further wrong to chalenge him here for leauing out any poynt of gouernment in any Ecclesiasticall cause that euen the statute giueth hir maiestie that is to say A supreme gouernement in all things and causes Doth not the bishop set downe this M. St hath he not specified euen the same wordes oftentimes already and doth not his particular specifications coÌ„teine as much here also Nâ—… say you he leaueth out the principall cause ecclesiasticall and most necessarie meete and conuenient for a supreme gouernor Ecclesiasticall Soft M. St. stay here or euer we demaund what this cause should be I demaunde only now why ye say supreme gouernour Ecclesiasticall is this your honestie in handling the statute doth the Quéene take vpon hir to be a supreme gouernor Ecclesiasticall or doth the statute giue this title to hir maiestie A supreme gouernor Ecclesiasticall the statute saith A supreme gouernor in all Ecclesiastical causes â–ª And is there no differeÌ„ce betwene an ecclesiastical gouernor a gouernor in eccles causes but you vse this your false captious speach to make that people beleue the slaÌ„der that ye raise on hir Maiesty as though she toke vpon hir to bean ecclesiasticall person to be a B. and a minister of the worde sacraments and by hir chiefe gouernmeÌ„t ouer bishops chalenged to be a chief or head bishop of Bishops like vnto your Pope And so hauing raised vp this slauÌ„der on the Quenes maiestie the statute ye chalenge the Bishop for omitting a principall ecclesiastical cause But what is that you aske forsooth iudgement say you determining and approuing of doctrine which is true and good and which is otherwise Here againe M. Stapl. ye speake as captiously for if by this iudgement ye meane an authoritie aboue the doctrine of Gods worde as all your side maintaineth that the word of God receyueth his authoritie of the Churches iudgement â–ª which Church ye call the Priestes and is authenticall bicause they haue ratified it so to be otherwise it were not true nor good then in déede as the Bishop hath set downe no such iudgement determining or approuing of doctrine neyther so coulde he haue done for the Quéenes Maiestie â—…keth no such supreme gouernement vpon hir nor such supreme gouernement is due to any other than to God alone who hath by Iesus Christ his sonne already fully determined in his holy worde what doctrine is good and true â–ª And what doctrine soeuer is besides that is neyther true nor good whosoeuer take vpon him to iudge determine and approue the same be it eyther your Pope or your Church neuer so much yea were it an angell from heauen â—…e must 〈◊〉 helde accursed But if ye meane by iudging determining and approuing of doctrine such authority as only acknowledgeth giueth testimonie admitteth alloweth setteth forth and strengthneth the doctrine of Christes onely worde not aâ—… ruler ouer it but as seruant vnto it and the reiecting or abolishing of all other doctrine against or besides that wordâ—… then hath the bishop not left out this ecclesiasticall cause in the statute though not iudging in that maner that the ecclesiasticall gouernour Bishop or Minister doth in his sermons or debating thereon but for so much as belongeth to a supreme gouernour And so sayth the bishop The gouernment that the Queenes Maiestie most iustly taketh on hir in ecclesiasticall causes is the guiding caring prouiding ordering directing and ayding the eccl. state within hir dominions to the furtherance maintenance and setting foorth of true religion buitie and quietnesse of Christes Church visiting reforming restrayning amending and correcting all maner persons with all maner errours superstitions heresies schisâ—…es abuses offences contempts and enormities in or about Christes religion whatsoeuer Marke these words a little better M. Stap. and I trust you shall sée it was you that ouershot your selfe and lefte out good attention béeing caried away in a cocke brayne â—…ume with too hastie a preiudice And that the bishop left out héere no part of such iudgement determination and approuing of doctrine which is true and good which is otherwise as belongeth to suche a supreme gouernour as groundeth himselfe on Gods iudgement â–ª determining and approbation What do ye thinke is true religion no good doctrine with you If it be the bishop hath not omitted it Can he care and prouide for it direct and set it foorth without iudgement without the determining of it to be good and true without the approbation of it On the other side are errours and heresies no false nor naughtie doctrine with you if they be then the bishop named them and thinke ye the visiting reforming restrayning amending and correcting can be without a iudgement and determination agaynst them Then sithe he in playne spéeche ascribeth all this to the Prince which fully answereth all this that ye call for if as I sayd ye vnderstande this iudgement determining and approuing a right ye shewe what a very continuall wrangler ye be where no cause at all is giuen But incontinent ye declare what ye meane by this iudgement of doctrine For what say you is more necessarie in the Churche than that the supreme gouernour therof shoulde haue power in all doubtes and controuersies to decide the truthe and
This worthie Champion ibid. Of his noble worke and of his noble holy martyr ibid. This worthie article ibid. Like to capitaine Kets tree of reformation ibid. Ye make your reckoning without your hoste 68. a. Your reformation or rather deformation 68 b. Master Hornes foolish figuratiue diuinitie 69. a. The great weight of so mightie a proufe 69. b. Master Horne of his great gentlenesse 69. b. These mē make a very VVelshmans hose of Gods word 70. a So aptly and truly you alleage you doctors 73. b. This good Antiquarie and Chronographer 76. b. Gayly and iolilie triumpheth 77. a. Verie good stuffe as good pardie as master Hornes owne booke and as clerkely and as faythfully handled 77. a. O what a craftie Cooper smooth Ioiner is M. Horne 77. b. Your handsome holy dealing 78. a. You are worthie exceeding thankes 78. a. A'iolie marginall note 78. a. O more than childishe folly 78. a. That craftie Cooper ibid. As wise as by the Metaphore of a Cowe to conclude a saddle for as well doth a saddle fit a Cowe 78. b. Such beggerly shifts ibid. Ye haue demeaned your selfe so clerkly and skilfully ibid. Such a personage as ye counterfait 80. a. This blessed Martyr ibid. Ye are a very poore silly Clarke ibid. M. Foxe will not suffer ye to walke post alone ibid. That I may a little roll in your rayling rhetoricke ibid. Your dearlings the Grecians 80. b. Seeing ye deale so freely and so liberally 81. a. Ye haue iuggled in one 82. a. Ye haue so craftily conueyed your galles 82. a. Your darke sconce a sconce of dimme light 82. a. The new pretended clergie the pretended Bishops 84. a. To all this and all other his frumpes and scoffes he may be aunswered with his owne wordes Modestia vestra M Horne not a sit omnibus hominibus Let your modestie M. Stapleton be knowne to all men 435. b. His owne obiection of bragging This is but an impudent facing and bragging 4. a. His fourth common place of bragging In his first Preface NOt beeing able to alleage any authour that maketh not for vs pag. 7. Doe what ye can c. 15. You haue in this replie a iust and a full defence 22. I haue replyed throughout 22. I haue not omitted anie one part or parcell 22. I haue aunswered the whole 22. I wishe that the most honourable c. would commaund you to proue it so to the worlde 22. I haue here replied to all and euerie part 22. If truth be on your side ye haue no cause to sticke hereat ▪ c. go through therefore as you haue begonne c. if ye thinke your foundation good c. go through I say c. if ye now draw backe men will laugh you to scorne 23. The dealing of the Catholike writers is so vpright that suche small occasions must be piked c. else against their dealings haue ye nothing to say 18. Your cause I assure you will come forth starke naked feeble and miserable 19. After all this strugling and wrastling agaynst the truth by you and your fellowes master Iewell and the rest the truth is dayly more and more opened illustred and confirmed and your contrarie doctrine is or ought to bee disgraced and brought in vtter discredite 8. In the seconde preface I VVas fully purposed hauing so largely prouoked suche sharpe aduersaries especially master Iewel for a season to rest me and to stande at mine owne defence if any woulde charge me 24. I haue shaped to the whole booke a whole and full Replie wherein I rather feare I haue sayd to much than to litle 25. Thy religion is but a bare name of religion and no religion in deede 27. These be such absurdities as euery man of meane consideration seeth and abhorreth 28. The primacie of the Bishop of Rome is euidently here proued 28. Master Hornes whole aunswere is but as it were a vayne blast 29. The sea Apostolike is the fountaine and welspring of all vnitie in the Catholike faith 33. Neither shall we euer finde any cause of good and sufficient contentation till we returne thither 35. In the answere to the Bishops Preface AS I assuredly vnderstande that the reuerende father my Lorde Abbate of VVestminster fol. 1. a. But this may I boldly say and I doubt nothing to proue it that in all his booke there is not as much as one worde of Scripture one Doctor one Councell general or prouincial not the practise of any one countrey throughout the world counted Catholike that maketh for such kinde of regimēt as master Horne auoucheth nor any one maner of proufe that hath any weight or pith in the world to perswade I will not say master Feckenham but any other of much lesse wit learning and experience 3. a. I say master Horne commeth not once nighe the principall matter in question 3. a. I say further in case we remoue and sequester all other proufes on our side that M. Horne shall by the verie same fathers Councels and other authorities by himselfe producted so be ouerthrowne in the chief and capitall question vnto the which he cōmeth not nigh as a mā might say by 1000. miles that his own cōpany may haue iust cause to feare c. 3. a I say and master Feckenham wil also say that euen M. Horne himselfe retreateth so farre backe c. 3. b. The premisses then being true and of our side abundantly proued and better to be proued as occasion shall serue as nothing can effectually be brought against them 4. a. Ye haue not no nor ye can not proue any such matters 4. b. In the first booke I Must be so bolde by your leaue as plainlie and bluntlie to go to worke with you as I haue done before with master Grindall and master Iewell 7. b. The Queene cannot make you Lord Bishop of VVinchester as I haue otherwhere sufficiently proued in the Fortresse of of our first faith annexed to venerable Bede 8. a. Luther and Caluine and other being therewith pressed were so messhed and bewrapped therein that they could not in this world wite what to say thereto answering this that they wist nere what nor at what point to holde them 8. a. The Protestants wonderfully troubled about the question of the continuall succession of Bishops 8. a. VVhat haue ye to iustifie your cause 8. b. Master Horne can not defende and maintaine his herisies nor himselfe to be a Bishop by anie law of the realme 9. a. The Catholikes not suffered to replie least their aduersaries weakenesse should as it would haue done in deede and now daylie doth God bee praysed euidently and openly haue beene disciphered and disclosed 13. a. I dare vndertake that not onely master Feckenham but manie mo that nowe refuse shall moste gladly take the saide othe 31. a. VVhat should I reason further with this man. 32. b. Notwithstanding all your great bragges and this your clerkly booke ye knowe not nor neuer shall know but that the
turne ye are to gredie man remember that qui cupit totum perdit totum But let vs sée your sixe demaundes whether they be reasonable and to be graunted yea or no. There are therefore say you many thinges to be considered first that Christ lefte one to rule his vvhole Churche in his steade from time to time vnto the ende of the vvorlde Is this your first request to be considered and graunted M. Stapleton now surely a reasonable demaund to be considered vpon And woorthie to haue that Salomon graunted to Adonias for asking of Abisaâ—…g to wife Wise king Salomon saw he might aswell haue asked the crowne from his head yea his head from his shoulders and who so vnwise that seeth not ye might aswell aske the whole controuersie to be graunted you and graunt ye this what néede ye propounde your other principles following How be it let vs sée what they be also Secondly we muste consider ye say that this one vvas S. Peter the Apostle and novv are the Bishops of Rome his successours Out of doubt ye had on some great considering câ—…ppe M. Stapleton when you considered that the Bishop should haue considered this He was much to blame he considered it not but M. Stapl. and ye were as wise as God might haue made you ye would haue better coÌ„sidered with your selfe than to thinke others haue so litle consideration as to graunt ye this your false and foolishe principle Thirdly say you that albeit the Bishop of Rome had no such vniuersall gouernment ouer the vvhole yet that he is and euer vvas the Patriarche of Englande and of the vvhole VVest Church and so hath as much to do here as any other Patriarche in his Patriarchshippe It is a signe M. Stap â–ª ye shrewdly doubte the former twains woulde neuer be graunted that so soone would be content to become a Patriarche of a piece from a Pope of the whole which though it sheweth lesse haughtinesse in you that would play small game rather than sit out yet perchance your Pope is of Alexanders spirite to whome Darius hauing offred halfe his dominions if I were Alexander ê™ Parmenio I would take it so would I ê™ Alexander if I were Parmenio And so perchance your Pope will say to you if I were Master Stapleton I would be content at least to be a Patriarche and perchance a worse rowme woulde serue But beyng the Bishop of Rome he will say Aut Papa aut nihil And therefore least ye get his curse before ye aske our consent the surest way were to know how he will like of this your limitation and when he shal be content then propose it to vs to consider thereon But I see ye like not greatly to stande hereon for fourthly say you Then all vvere it that he had nothing to intermedle vvith vs nor as Pope nor as Patriarche yet can not this supremacie of a ciuill Prince be iustified VVhereof he is not capable especially a vvoman but it must remayne in some spirituall man. Your must is very mustie M. Stapl. and smelleth of the pumpe of Romes ship Your Sequence is as badde the B. of Rome neyther as Pope nor as Patriarche is supreme gouernour in Ecclesiasticall causes in England Ergo No ciuill Prince man or woman is capable of it Againe There must be one spirituall man that must haue an vniuersall gouernment ouer the whole Churche Ergo â–ª A ciuill Prince may haue no particuler gouernement in his particuler Churche The antecedents in déede are true of bothe For neither hath the Pope as Pope or Patriarche or any otherwise any supreme gouernement ouer Englande as you presuppose he had none and yet the Prince both may haue and hath some supreme gouernement ouer vs For in déede all supreme gouernement suche as the Pope vsurped she neither hath nor may haue nor requireth nor belongs to any creature but is due to Christ alone He is that spirituall man that your other antecedent speaketh of if ye meane him it is true if you meane any other it is but your false presupposall though the consequentes whereon we stande followeth neither way neither doe ye laboure once to proue them But is here all things we muste consider no say you for fiftly Besides this the Catholikes say that as there vvas neuer any such president heretofore in the catholike Church so at this present there is no suche excepte in Englande neither among the Lutherans the Suinglians the Suenkfeldians or Anabaptists or any other secte that at this day raygneth or rageth in the vvorlde None of these I say agnyse their ciuill Prince as supreme gouernour in al causes spirituall and temporall Let goe these raging termes of sectes M. Sta. to their common places and I pray ye tell vs once agayne who sayth thus Who euen the Catholikes say so But whome meane you by the Catholiks The Papists Then gentle M. Stap. haue me commended to those your Papisticall Catholikes that ye say say so and aske them agayne if all be Gospell that they do say or no. Tushe man will M Stap. replie will ye not beléeue the Catholikes Why then sixtly and Laste of all I saye and M. Feck vvill also say that euen M. Horne him selfe in this his aunsvvere retreateth so farre back from his assertion of supreme gouernement in all causes spirituall and temporall vvhiche is the state and keye of the vvhole question that he plucketh from the Prince the chiefe and principall matters and causes ecclesiasticall as vve shall hereafter playnely shevve by his ovvne vvordes This geare goeth harde indéede The B. is nowe driuen to asore straight But syr might a man be so bolde to aske your mastership what are you and M. Feck are ye not Catholikes that when ye haue saide the catholikes say so ye come rushing in say Last of all I say and M. Feck vvill also say you make vs doubte least ye be no Catholikes and withall to suspect when ye cal your selfe and your client M. Feck to witnesse some partialitie in your sayings least the sole will holde with the shoe and that as two false witnesses came in agaynst our sauiour Christ with I say so and he vvill say so also so woulde you compact togither to slander the B. herein with I say so and M. Feck vvil say so also But by both your leaues may I be so bolde as to set your I say so and his I say so also asyde and desire ye to proue your so saying Why say you doubt ye of that we shall here after plainly shevve it by hys owne vvordes These are but vvords M. Stap. and ioly promises if ye can shevve it so playnly why shevve ye it not playnly here where ye say it so playnly or else haue shevved at the least where the B. doth thus which till ye shall playnely shewe this your â–ª bolde and playne saying may be suspected for a playne lye But M. Stap. shaking of the further
you say for the which I referre me to all autentike and auncient recordes as well of Englande as of other nations Ye say well herein master Stapleton and we take your offer And fiâ—…st let vs sée for other Nations Did Iames euen the first Bishop of Hierusalem acknowledge the supremacie of the Sea of Rome Was he confirmed by the same Sea when as yet the same Sea was not to be acknowledged or be confirmed by If as you say the B. can be no prelate of the Gaâ—…ter being no prelate at all how could that Sea be acknowledged that was not at all Moreouer do ye thinke that Timothie Bishoppe of Ephesus or Titus of Crâ—…ta and all other Bishoppes of Asia or Grece that Sainte Paule made acknowledged the supremacie of the Sea of Rome or were confirmed by the same when Sainte Paule that ordeyned them sayeth he receyued his authoritie of no man And when he came to Rome he neyther came to haue his Bishops confirmed of the Sea of Rome nor he founde anye Sea there nor sought Peter for the saide purpose else where nor thought himselfe any whitte inferiour to him much lesse thought he of any suche supremacie eyther of his Sea or him Nowe if the first and originall of all those Bishoprikes Eastwarde neyther acknovvledged anye supremacie of that Sea nor were confirmed by the same What plea can you make of theyr succession If they swarued from theyr predecessours and first founders your selfe confesse it is no good succession but a newe sewte and race And if it be good and lawfull succession that the Bishops of the East Churches succeded by then neyther acknowledged they anye supremacie of the Sea of Rome nor were confirmed by the same euen which not onelye the true autentyke and auncient recordes doe testifie howe they agréed although in sayth yet nothing lyke in disciplines rytes and orders to whiche the Romaine Sea doth sweare all those Bishoppes that are confyrmed by it and acknowledge obedience therevnto But also euen to this daye thoughe one or two Bishoppes nowe and then of late time for verye necessitie and hope of reliefe haue runne to the Sea of Rome yet by theyr ordinarie and customable succession euen from the Apostles times so long as they continued Christian neuer acknowledged they the supremacie of the Sea of Rome nor were confirmed by the same The like recordes for the Churches southward remaine not only of their beginnings from the other Apostles not from the Sea of Rome but also of their continuance howe they woulde not admitte anye supremacie of the same Sea ouer them and what contention they had thereabout As for their confirmations that they had them not from the sea of Rome but euen from the Emperour yea the Bishop of Rome himselfe and other from their princes the practise when we come thereto shall shewe And as east warde and southwarde so may we like wise reason of the Church westward where S. Paule after he had bene two yeare at Rome by the space of tenne yeares trauelled in Italie Spaine and Fraunce as witnesse Eusebius Epiphanius Ierome Euthalius Diaconus Nicephorus Beda Platina yea Frier Perionius that wrote the other daye de vitâ—…s Apostolorum that in Langue doâ—… he made a Bishoppe at Narbona who trauelled after with him in Spaine And if in all that space as it is most likely he made other Bishops shall we suppose they were not full Bishops till they had their Bulles from the Sea of Rome And if the first B. did not so your reason of succession fayleth So that your maior is false concerning other Nations Now let vs briefly sée howe it likewise fayles for England And as you say Namely in the foresayde Sea of VVinchester that from the first grafting and planting of the fayth in England there was not no not one in that Sea that did not acknowledge the supremacie of the Sea of Rome and was not confirmed by the same vntill the late time of master Poynet who otherwise also was but an vsurper the true Bishop then liuing by no lawful or ecclesiasticall order remoued or depriued The lawfull order and sufficient causes of B. Gardeners depriuation is extant and sette out in the booke of Monumentes Howe true a Bishop as ye call him he was if the acknowledging of obedience to the Sea of Rome bée an argument of a true Bishop his booke de vera obedientia of true obedience doth declare and almost all the time of his bishopriche he neuer acknowledged the supremacie to apperteine to the Sea of Rome but to the prince as the Bishop now doth there néede no recordes for the matter And as for olde recordes since the first grafting and planting of the faythe in Englande whiche is farre longer than eyther from your Apostle monke Augustine or from Birinus Bishop of Winchester the recordes do testifie howe the Christians whome your Augustine and his mates founde in thys Realme neyther kept the ceremonyes and rytes of the Romaine Churche nor admitted the Legantine authoritie of your sayde Apostle which argueth that theyr Bishoppes acknowledged not as you saye the supremacie of the Sea of Rome nor were confirmed by the same euen from Lucius till almost King Arthures tyme when the Heathen Sarons so preuayled in the west parts that euen in Winchester in King Arthures reigne Cerdicius erected a Temple of Heathen Idolles falsely called yet to this daye the Temple of Dagon as the olde recordes doe mention And therefore your maior is false for Englande also Now M. St. séeing the falsenesse of this argument of succession to be such that he dare not abide the triall of his recordes he flyeth from it and graunteth at the length the B. vocation to be good and sownd Yet hath he a stronger reason to disable him which is this No heretike ought to be admitted to a Byshops roome or if he be he forthwith ought to be remoued But for that yee are yoked or as ye pretende maryed ye are no doubt an Heretike Ergo were your vocation good and sounde yet haue you disabled your selfe to occupie that roome and eyther ought not to be admitted or forthwith ought ye to be remoued I aunswere the maior iâ—… true and if it were as truely executed none should better féele it than the popish prelates who confesse them selues not only for other Seas but euen for their hed and mother sea of Rome that diuers hereâ—…ikes haue bene B. thereof Who being so admitted I demaunde with Piers PlowmaÌ„ of you M. St. by this your maior who shall hang the Bell about the rattons necke who shall remoue an heretike Bishop of Rome I thinke it will belong or euer he remoue him selfe The minor of this argument is of the diuels sophisâ—…rie so S. Paule calleth it doctrinam daemoniorum and sayth let a B. be the husbande of one wife and so was Saint Peter who ye say was your first Bishoppe of Rome And yet neither was Saint
them when both the ensamples that ye make your similitude from and the matter that ye apply them too are false For a man may be master of a shippe though he neuer was a maryner in the shippe and also â—…e made the Maior of the towne wherein he was neuer citizen before As many a noble or gentleman is made the captayne of a forte of a towne or an armie that neuer was prest before a souldier and yet a good captayne to hauing the knowledge howe to gouerne souldiers though he him selfe were none Yea to draw néerer than mariners Maiors captaines reade ye not that S. Ambrose was neuer so much as any of the clergie and that more is no not baptized yet he was a better byshop than the best bishop of the Romish making now or than the byshop of Rome him selfe yea your holy Pope Felix 5. was he before he was Pope any other than as ye call it a méere lay man neither Cardinall Byshop Priest nor had so much that we reade of as your benet collet and therfore your examples are not true of Maior Pilot that they must haue bene citizen mariner before And yet where herevpon ye would néedes haue christian Princes to be spirituall men if they should be supreme gouernours of spiritual matters it is graunted you and so they be And if you thinke godly christian Princes not to be spiritual but vtterly voyde of spiritualnesse then is this in you a lying and carnall spitefulnesse All godly Princes yâ—…a all godly persons are spiritual and that muche better than any shaued or oyled massing priest But if ye meane after the common distinction those that haue any spirituall office in the ministerie of the worde and sacraments as deacons elders byshopâ—… c. then your similitude as is before declared fayleth Such Offices are not necessarie to haue gone before in a Supreme gouernour ouer them although the knowledge is necessarie how to gouerne them Besides this the proportion of your similitude fayleth in that to proue a supreme gouernour should withall be a spiâ—…ituall man yoâ—… alledge ensamples of suche gouernours as be not but haue bene suche or suche persons before and so from the master which hath bene a maryner and nowe iâ—… â—… master you conclude the prince béeing a gouernour in spiritual matters should withal be a spiritual person Neither doth the proportion hold in the necessarie relation of the similitude from a Maâ—…or to his citizen from a master of a ship to a mariner seruing in the ship which hath relation froÌ„ the gouernours to the parties in their offices gouerned to any like relation betwéene a supreme gouernour ouer eccl. causes persons to a spirituall person â–ª but from a spirituall gouernour to a spirituall subiect this were the right relation Now the Prince néedeth neither to haue bene a spiritual subiect nor yet a spirituall person in your common sense of spiritualtie neither so claymeth he to be a spirituall gouernour And therefore neither the ensamples of your similitude nor the proportion holdeth But sée how still your owne tale ouerturneth your selfe For if his principall gouernement resteth in ciuil matters as immediatly ye say that in that respect he is supreme gouernour of al persons in his realme but not of their actions why is he not of their actions also syth they be ciuil or temporal matters in which respect he is their supreme gouernor is it not bicause though he be their supreme gouernor yet he professeth not all their seueral offices scieÌ„ces handy crafts mysteries or vocations and so is not a dealer in their actions which hindreth nothing his principal gouernemeÌ„t ouer them al that he is nor euer was a prentise of any of their sciences nor practiseth the actions of their callings being all ciuill matters And yet say you truely he hath the principall gouernement in ciuill matters But why then also notwithstanding the prince dealeth not with the actions of spirituall men may he not haue a principall gouernement in spirituall matters thoughe him selfe haue not the spirituall function or office of a spirituall man Doe ye not â—…ée by your owne wordes that to haue a principall gouernement or to be a supreme gouernor ouâ—…r all persons and matters â–ª is one thing and to do all the particuler actions of those persons or matters is another thing not requisite in the supreme gouernour and why then wilfully confounde ye them so often as though we made the Prince the doer of the actions bicause we acknowledge the Prince the gouernour of the matters And why sayde ye before in your last similies that he coulde not be a principall gouernour of any ciuill matters excepte he had bene a doer of the actions and as it were a prentise to the occupation before concluding the like for a gouernour of spiritual persons and causes that he must be a spirituall man and do the spirituall actions But if now béeing better aduised ye perceiue that a man may be a gouernour in ciuil matters and yet be not the doer of the ciuill actions I then conclude likewise for spirituall matters that the Prince may be a supreme gouernour in spirituall causes and yet the same not the doer of the spirituall actions The two vntruthes therfore M. Stap. that ye gather of the Byshop saying VVherefore we haue heere two vntruthes the one in an vntrue definition the other in saying the Prince is supreme gouernour in all causes spirituall are no vntruthes The Byshops definition is clearer and truer than yours Neither haue ye or hitherto coulde ye improue his conclusion with all your ensamples or your similitudes Yea euery similitude that ye haue made béeing throughly weyed hath proued the Byshops conclusion and confuted and contraried your selfe But beside al this we haue sayth M. St. a playne contradiction of M. Horne directly ouerthrowing his owne assertion heere The Bishoply rule and gouernement of Gods Church sayth M. Horne coÌ„sisteth in three poyntes to feede the Church with Gods word to minister Christes Sacraments and to bynde and lose to gouerne the Churche sayth he after this sorte belongeth to the onely office of Byshops and Church ministers and not to Kinges Queenes and Princes The like he hath afterwarde Now then these being by his owne confession the actions that properly belong to Ecclesiasticall persons and the Prince by his sayd confession hauing nothing to do therewith how is it then true that the Prince is the onely supreme head and gouernour in causes Ecclesiasticall Yea in those that do properly belong to persons Ecclesiasticall or by what colour may it be defended that this saying is not plaine contradictorie and repugnant to this later saying which we haue alleaged and whereof we shall speake more largely when we come to the saide place There is no doubt M. St. but ye will recken it vp there at large and here also and in many other places ye still sing Decies repetita placebunt
in respect of some church cause and function which we freely graunt to M. Horne yet is he neuer a whit the nearer of his purpose vnlesse he can proue that there were also no other respect why he should be vnder the Prince but for causes Ecclesiasticall For as we haue saide he is a subiect also as other Laye men are and a member beside of the ciuill common wealth in consideration whereof the Prince hath to do with him and not properly as he is a spirituall man though both respects be concurrant in one person and he be named of the worthier As the Bishops argument is plaine and formall against M. Feckenham so here M. Stapleton stepping out to helpe him as it were clapping him on the backe recomforts him saying his graunt of the Minor That the Queenes highnesse is sâ—…preme gouernour of all persons in hir realmes so well Ecclesiasticall as temporall may be well graunted And he will also freely graunte to the Bishop the Maior A man is not called an Ecclesiasticall person but in respect of some church cause and function which is all one with the Bishops affirmatiue Euery ecclesiasticall person is called Ecclesiasticall onely in respect of Ecclesiasticall functions thinges or causes belonging to Ecclesiasticall persons what now can rightly follow hereof but the Bishops flatte conclusion that the Queenes highnesse is supreme gouernour of them in those their functions things and causes also Nay saith M. St. I will graunt him al this freely and yet is he neuer a whitte the neerer of his purpose vnlesse he can proue that there were also no other respect why he should be vnder his Prince but for causes ecclesiasticall for he is a subiect also as other lay men are Ha M. St. I sée you would faine slippe the coller deuising a new diuersitie of respects betwéene ecclesiasticall person and subiect when the question is and M. Feckenham hath confessed that he is a subiect euery way whether he be lay subiect or ecclesiasticall subiect â–ª Otherwise wheÌ„ M. Feckenham saide ouer all persons either ecclesiasticall or temporall of what estate so euer they be if he had ment as you say ouer ecclesiasticall persons in déede but not in that respect that they be ecclesiasticall but temporall and lay persons then had he plainly dalied in coloured speach foolish meaning as thus ouer al persons ecclesiasticall and temporall that is to say ouer all persons temporall and temporall â–ª if he meant ecclesiasticall persons not in that respect they be so called but in that respect they be temporall and lay as other subiectes be But this is your owne wilie deuice which in effect is nothing but wilie beguild him selfe M. Feckenham ment plaine therefore twice togither saith either ecclesiasticall on the one partie or temporall persons on the other partie and to make the matter plainer of what estate saith he that is to say of what condition kinde or degrée of subiects soeuer they be And did not your selfe say before and freely graunt it that an ecclesiasticall person hath not his name of ecclesiastical person for any other respect but for ecclesiasticall causes and functions why say you now contrary to your self he is named here ecclesiasticall person â–ª not in any respect of any ecclesiastical causes or functions but in respect he is a lay and temporal subiect how hangs this togither M. StapleteÌ„ will ye denie so soone that so late ye freely graunted then I perceyue as ye here say the Bishop doth I must be fayne also to spitte on my handes and take faster holde on yours and M. Feckenhams graunt M. Feckenham hath graunted and you also thus much that the Queenes Highnesse is supreme gouernour ouer all persons borne within hir realmes either ecclesiasticall or temporall of what estate soeuer they be That is to say they are all subiect to hir all persons gouerned or vnder hir supreme gouernment but the vsuall worde is subiect Subiect here is the Generall worde or Genus comprehending two members deuiding theÌ„ selues vnder it that is ecclesiasticall person and temporall person Either of these is comprehended a like in the generall woorde subiect for it is neither nearer the one nor the other nor may be more properly spoken of the one than of the other The temporall person is as much subiect and no more than the ecclesiasticall person the ecclesiasticall as much and no more than the temporall nor these two can be confounded togither nor the one taken for the other Membra diuidentia non confunduntur but as the one is temporall in respect onely of the temporall functions so the other as ye say well therein is ecclesiasticall only in respect of functions ecclesiasticall bothe are comprehended vnder their generall worde subiect thus doth M. Feckenham plainly set them foorth as it were in a table Now commeth our student M. St. seing all this so manifest plaine that him selfe is eueÌ„ forced to graunt it he hath studied out this shift first to iumble them altogither iugglerlike then deuides or rather breakes them making ecclesiasticall and subiect to be Membra diuidentia the one to ouerthwart the other which they do not but the one coÌ„prehendes the other And maketh this worde person to be general to them both which here is al one with subiect And thus when he hath plaied Cole vnder the candlestick chopping chauÌ„ging the words now saith he ye shall sée the Bishop is neuer the nearer of his purpose vnlesse he caÌ„ proue that there were also no other respect why he should be vnder the Prince but for causes Ecclesiasticall for as we haue said he is a subiect also As who should say in that respect he is a subiect he is not Ecclesiasticall in that respect he is ecclesiasticall he is no subiect bicause he supposeth these two are contrary respects ecclesiastical subiect But this he doth by presupposall that ye will graunt him al that he saith or els he would neuer so freely haue graunted the Bishop that which after made against him selfe For who seeth not that ecclesiasticall and subiect may well agrée togither which M. Feck saw well inough wheÌ„ he graunted as well the ecclesiasticall person as the temporall to be the princes subiect And againe who seeth not that this is but a fonde shifte of M. Stapl. to say that the Bishop is neuer the nerer of his purpose onlesse he can proue there were also no other respect why he would be vnder the prince but for causes ecclesiasticall For grauÌ„ting him againe there are other respects wherefore he is also vnder his prince What is M. St. the nerer of his purpose doth it follow bicause he is subiect also in other respects that therefore he is not subiect in this respect he should haue proued this but this he lettes alone and thinks all is safe if he be subiect in other respects But what other respects so euer there be him selfe hauing freely graunted â–ª that this
religion Secondly that they ought to doe this with an especiall regards and care Thirdely they perceyue and rightly vnderstande that it is Gods will they shoulde so doe Now since that this by master Stapletons déepe silence is agréed vpon betwixt the Bishop and him I make hereon this argument To order and set forth Gods true religion with especiall regarde and care is the Princes duetie But the only sort of gouernment that the Quéenes Maiestie doth chalenge and take vpon hiâ—… in ecclesiasticall causes is to order and set forth Gods true Religion with an especiall regarde and care Ergo Prinâ—… ought to take vpon them such gouernment as the Quéenes Maiestie doth claime and take vpon hir in ecclesiasticall causes And thus is the Bishops antecedent directly proued and so consequently the principall matter of M. Feck issue Nowe as the former part being the generall assertion to all the ensamples following is no whitte impeached by any aunswere of master Stap. to it but by silence whiche with him is an argument of confession graunted so like a very Counterblaster in déed he blusâ—…reth and puffeth at the seconde part as though he would all to blast it Moses sayth the Bishop was supreme gouernour ouer Gods people and was not chief priest or Bishop for that was Aaron Here master Stapleton denyeth not Moses to be the supreme gouernour but that he was not chiefe priest or Bishop he vtterly gainsayeth it It is an vntruth sayth he in his score for Moses was the chiefe priest as shall be prooued Here is a flat promise of proufe but I feare me it wil neuer be perfourmed neyther doth master Stapleton here go about the perfourmance of it And therefore the Bishops denial of Moses to be the chiefe Priest must stand for a truth till by prouing Moses to be the chiefe Priest he haue proued it to be an vntruth And in the meane time his promise must stande but for a crake as also his prowde entraâ—…nte into his Chapter That the Scripture by the Bishop alleaged reacheth nothing home but rather infringeth and plainely marreth the Bishoppes purpose and fullye standeth on our syde sayeth this student so greatly hath arrogancie sotted him He fareth as did the Souldiour who when his aduersarie had manye tymes in wrastling hurled him downe in the sighte of euerie stander by yet woulde hée neuer confesse that hée had anye fall yea most arrogantlye â–ª he styll affyrmed that hée had â—…ast the other And euen so playeth this student for this of wrastling is one of his common similitudes he contendeth to wrastle with the Bishoppe whiche is in verys déede as hée sayeth in this Chapter Impar congressus Achâ—…lls Troilus An vneuen matche betweene Troylus and Achilles What a number of â—…oule falles hée hath had yea howe hée hath béene ouerturned in hys â—…wne trippes is apparaunt to euery Readers eyes and goe no further but euen to hys last Chapter And yet sée howe hée craketh that all the Byshoppes allegations marre hys owne cause and fully stande on hys syde Where contraryewyse they haue drie beaten him backe bellie side and all And as hée thus fondely maketh vaunt of his former victorie â—…o I doubt nothing sayth he it will fare with his examples Well sayd of a student like an other Gawin he doubteth nothing But sée a sodaine qualme of hys inconstancie for euen streyght wayes after he hath cryed out all comes to shorâ—… he sayth but here am I shrewedly â—…ncombred and in a great doubt what to doe Whie master Stapleton are ye now so soone in a great doubt and right nowe as doeth bolde Bayarde doubted nothing and haue before alreadie without any stammering thereat clapped downe your marginall note for a full resolute aunswere that Moyses was the chiefe Priest and nowe doubt ye what to answere But master Stapleton hath so many weapons that he is shrewdly encombred with them as it were another armed Golias and yet one smal poebble stone will soone ease him of this encombrance He telles vs he hath so many aunsweres that he doubteth with which he should beginne for I could sayth he make a short but a true aunswere that these ensamples are fully aunswered alreadie by master D. Harding and master Dorman In déede master Stapleton this were a short aunswers but I sée your selfe feare as ye sayde before it woulde come to short and not reache home to the matter Yet say you if ye shoulde referre the Reader thither to his and your great ease it should be to the sparing not only of penne ynke and paper but of the time also which of all thinges is most precious It séemeth master Stapleton ye are a man of déepe casting these are good considerations of penne ynke paper and tyme. But whie followe ye not your owne councell whiche if ye had obserued and left out so many impertinent vagaries and other your trifling common places ye had saued more paper penne ynke and tyme by thrée halues than ye haue done And here as séeming full resolued to follow this aduise ye clappe downe another marginall note All master Hornes examples out of the olde Testament aunswered alreadie by master Doctour Harding and master Dorman Here sayth he is a shorte but a true aunswere To this shorte aunswere I aunswere againe All M. Doctor Hardings and M. Dormans answeres confuted alreadie by the B of Sarum and M. Nowell Here is another as short an answere as yours M. Stap. and a great deale truer whiche I remitte to the indifferent viewers of both their answeres Nowe might we both rest and breath vs from further answering of these ensamples and spare penue ynke paper and time also that he séemeth to accompt most precious But another thing was more precious vnto him and that was master Feckenhams hyre and his friendes largesse for so much Paper penne ynke and time spent about his booke and the gaine of the printed copies which the bigger volume it came vnto for he woulde not séeme a thréehalfepennie student the fatter exhibition it should yéelde and he séeme the greater clerke yea to go beyonde his masters And therefore there is no remedie he will spare neyther penne ynke paper time nor paynes also but that his Counterblast shall be blowne vp to so large and full a volume that it may encounter euen the best of theirs To whose answeres if he shoulde referre himselfe and saye no more thereto Then I feare me sayth he woulde steppe forth if not master Horne a good simple plaine man in his dealings yet some other ioly fine freshe pregnant wittie fellowe yea and bring me to the streightes which way so euer I did treade You are loath I perceiue master Stapleton to be brought into the streight way to treade aright therein for then your wrie treading woulde soone be espied But ye séeke crookes and shifting answeres for the nonce And lyke the vayne talkatiue Arrian Philosopher ye dispise the right reuerende and learned father calling
haue for warrant the expresse commaundement of God. So that by your wicked principle no good nor godly princes ought to be drawne into example for any other Princes to follow but naughtie and wicked Princes such as had so little any part or sparke of Moses glorie that they had not the spirit of God in them or at the least it is vncertaine whose spirite they had such as the people were not commaunded to heare them suche as had not Gods expresse commaundement for their doinges these are fitte examples with you for Princes to followe Thus do ye shew how ye haue heretofore yet still would abuse Princes making them so drunken with that cuppe of abhominations of the whore of Babilon that they might take ensample of no good nor godly Prince But let vs sée howe substantially ye proue your maior You reason by admitting the contrary thereto ab absurdo from a foule inconuenience that we should fall into by taking such Princes for example or else fall into a â—…oule contradiction agaynst our selues Else if ye will haue your examples say you to proue and confirme then as Iosue circumcided so let the Prince baptise and as Iosue sacrificed vpon an altare so let the Prince in Cope Surplesse celebrate your holy coÌ„munion But these two things as peculier offices of Bishops and Priests M Nowell excludeth flatly all Princes from yea and sayth they ought to be vntouched of Prince or other person Ergo thus agayne either ye iumble and iarre one from another or else your argument to bring Iosue for example to proue and confirme falleth downe righte choose whiche of bothe ye will. Héere is as M. Stap. thinketh a marueilous Dilemma and yet the absurditie therof moste easily anoyded and the contradiction as playnly turned vpon him selfe To the maior I answere that as the one did these things so dothe the other and therfore the one is a fit example of the other As Iosue then did circumcise so the Prince nowe baptiseth As Iosue did then sacrifice on an altare so the Prince doth now celebrate not ours as he scornefully termes it but the Lordes holy communion Neither of them by executing them selues the fact but by commaunding appoynting and ouerséeing the facte to be rightly executed by the ministers to whom the doing apperteineth And that this was Iosue his doing and not otherwise Lyra vpon these wordes Et primum quidem benedixit populo doth witnesse And first of all he blessed the people c. Non est intelligenduÌ„ quòd Iosue proprie loquendo benedixit populum quòd hoc pertinet ad sacerdotum officium sed imprecatus est bona populo tanquà m princeps populi post immolationeÌ„ praedictaÌ„ quam similiter fecit non per se sed per sacerdotes VVee must not vnderstand these words he blessed the people that Iosue in speaking him selfe did blesse them for this apperteyned to the Priestes office But Iosue as the Prince of the people wished well vnto them after the offring afore sayde whiche likewyse he did not by himselfe but by the Priestes And againe Posthac legit omnia verba c. Then afterwarde he reade all the wordes of the lawe the blessinges and cursings according to all that is written in the booke of the law there was not a worde that Moses had commaunded whiche Iosue read not before all the congregation of Israell as well before the women and the children as the straunger c. Non per se sed per sacerdotes vt praedictum est coram omni multitudinem Israel c. Not by him selfe but by the priestes as is before sayde afore all the multitude of Israell And euen as he thus read and blessed by his commaundement and their ministerie so saith Lyra fecit immolationem similiter he did offer sacrifice in like sort not by him selfe but by commaunding the minister to do it And do ye thinke that he circumcised all the whole people of Israell with his owne handes because the wordes are circuncidit filios Israel Do ye thinke bicause the bare wordes are Igitur Iosue de nocte consurgens mouit castra that he remooued all their tents with his owne handes and of the stones in Iordan alios quoque duodcim lapides posuit in medio Iordanis alueo that he set them in the riuer with his owne fingers Do ye thinke of the Citie and the King of Hai succendit vrbem fecit eam tumulum sempiternum regem quoque eius suspendit in patibulo he burnt the Citie and hee made it an heape for euer and the King thereof he hanged on a gallowes and of the other Kinges Iosue smote them and slewe them and hanged them on fiue trees all these thinges and a number of such other as well seruile as other deedes as well temporall as ecclesiasticall thinke you bycause still all runneth vnder his name and his doing that he did them hym selfe Or rather gather thereon that syth he did not these things himselfe and yet so well in ecclesiasticall as other matters all beareth the name alone of him it importeth his supreme gouerment and direction of them So little is there any absurditie in the comparison of these doings but your owne absurde mistaking and reasoning so absurdly on them not distinguishing betwene the doing of these things and the maner of doing them To the minor likewise I answere there is no contradiction iumbling or iarring betwene the Bishop and master Nowell therein For of the same minde that the one is is the other also as the Bishop hath declared many times in his answere euer obseruing this destinction betwéene the doing of the fact and the ouersight in appoynting the fact to be done But this of a peuish selfe will ye will not vnderstande And so here bicause the wordes are simplie spoken that Iosue did such things ye vnderstande it that personally he executed the doing of them But what now if you doe contrarie your owne selfe and talking after of this same partie confesse that the doing of these and such like things â–ª must be vnderstoode by this sayde maner of anothers ministerie May ye not then most worthely here your owne wordes returned on your selfe that your argument falleth downe right if euer it stoode vpright your selfe in playne spéeche hurling it downe and that eyther here or there yée speake agaynst your owne conscience your owne sayings iumbling and iarring one from another and so ye encurre eyther the absurditie or the contradiction choose which of both you will. The. 13. Diuision The next ensample of the Byshop is of Dauid how God appoynted him king not onely for the people to liue in ciulâ—… peace and honesâ—…ie but chiefly that by Dauids gouernment care and zeale therein they mighte be fosâ—… red vp in Gods true religion decayed among them by the negligent reigne of king Saule This the Eyshop proued by king Dauids Actes in ordering disposing reforming the
immunities the priuileges of the heatheÌ„ priests they are so like vnto your popish priesthoode but I spare the reader Neuerthelesse what cause soeuer moueth you to write so fauorably for the Egiptian Priests none of these causes or any other maintenance of Idolaters moued Ioseph nor that any other suche lyke priesthoode to come shoulde take hereat any suche prerogatiue of béeing exempt from all fines to their princes The reason that moued Ioseph is apparant in the text He tooke the fift part of the peoples fruites bicause before they helde theÌ„ not of their king but the priests liuing was altogither of the kings gift finding And therfore they payed no portion to the king but the king allowed theÌ„ al the portioÌ„ they had But this that al that they had to liue vpoÌ„ was of the kings gift you quite forgat which argueth their subiectioÌ„ to him ye reasoÌ„ vpoÌ„ their priuiledge Where ye shâ—…ld note withal that al those other their priuiledges liuings came froÌ„ depeÌ„ded on the king And theÌ„ sée how fit a marke therby ye caÌ„ set vp against the Princes gouernmeÌ„t ouer priests Your Ninth and last marke is yet more fond and confused than all the rest besides wherin ye demaund of the Bishop saying Are ye able suppose ye to name any one king that wrote him selfe supreme head of the Iewishe Churche and that in all causes aswell spiritual as temporall and that caused an othe to the priestes and people the nobilitie onely exempted to be tendred that they in conscience did so beleeue and that in a woman prince to yea and that vnder payne of premunire and playne treason too Me thinkes ye play huddle now in the latter end M. St. sixe or seuen markes togither in one For the title of supreme head for receyuing the othe for the persons receyuing it the persons exempted the maner of receyuing it the Princes person and the penaltie of the refusall All these matters on a plumpe for haste come in one liuerie with the cognisance of your Ninth marke how neere the issue betwéene the Bishop and M. Feckenham I remit to the view of others To all these demaundes bicause ye are in hast and therfore thrust them out on an heape togither that the one might be a cloake to the other I will briefly answere them as they lye To your first demaunde for the Title thinke ye this a good argument No king of the Iewes wrote this title of supreme head or gouernour Ergo No king of the Iewes was so By the same argument no king of Englande before king Henrie wrote him selfe Defender of the faythe neither any king of the Iewes wrote that tytle Ergo None of them were defenders of the faythe And by the same argument your holy Father myghte léese a ioly Uicarige that he claymeth from Christ and Peter for neither of them wrote suche titles as he doth nor the highe Priest in the olde Testament wrote any suche stile as he dothe Ergo he claymeth his supremacie from them in vaine But this is a vaine argument if you can proue not the title so muche an the matter the thing and effecte of the title to come from them to him no man will stande with you in the stile but graunt your Pope his clayme This can you not do and therfore your Popeâ—…tytle is but vaine But this for the Princes supreme gouernment the Bishop hath named the Princes in the olde Testament and fully proued it that in matter thing and effect they tooke vppon them this supreme gouernance that the Quéenes Maiestie iustly claymeth now And this béeing proued as before till ye can improue this what babble ye of the title and yet since ye can bring no sufficient proofe of your Popes title neither why maketh this argument more agaynst the Prince than it doth agaynst the Pope Your second quarell is at the othe but the content therof as is proued béeing true why ought they not to sweare therto yea thoughe there were in the olde Testament no such ensample of an othe ministred by the Prince to hys subiects And yet we read how Iosias swore al his subiects to the lord But ye wil say this othe is not for the Prince to sweare them to Gods religion but to his estate If his estate be dutiful by gods religioÌ„ is he not therby also sworn thervnto And why then may not the Prince for his more assurance make an especiall othe thereof so well as a generall But was it lawfull for your Pope to sweare them to his vndue supremacie and is it not lawfull for the prince in a matter so due vnto him If you stil vrge a playne manyfest ensample to be shewed you where in expresse wordes suche an othe was then required I pray you and you will not deale partially M. Stap â–ª shewe you another example where the highe Priest of the Iewes required such an othe of the Clergie as your Pope dyd minister to those vnder him To that ye stande on the tendring the othe to the Priestes and the people and to aggrauate the matter as partiall say the Nobilitie be exempted partely is fonde and partely false For the Nobilitie or any other in certayne offices are not exempted But see the proude orgulous harte of this Priest howe he picketh quarels agaynst the Noibilitie bicause heerein they haue any prerogatiue ouer his priestly order But he maketh a matter in that the othe is that they in conscience did so beleeue as thoughe they coulde sweare therto and can not beleeue it in their consciences Belike master Stapleton your popishe Priestes make good otheâ—… and haue good consciences and beléefes that can sweare to a thing and haue no conscience or can haue conscience and not beléeue it so to be as ye sweare It is to be feared that some of your order haue so done Whether you haue done so or no I will not say for I knowe not your dealing nor am ouer curious to search out your olde reckonings But I thinke some of your good masters are not all in cleane life thereof Your outcrie at a womans Prince to haue thys Tytle yea and that say you in a woman Prince to sheweth your impudent spite agaynst your most gracious soueraigne and withall your impudent follie A woman Prince to say you If a Prince Master Stap. and why not a woman Prince to Will ye graunt hir to be a Prince and take from hir the duty that these ensamples shew doth belong vnto a prince Therefore eyther ye muste denie that a woman may be a prince or else graunt this authoritie yea to a woman prince to And doth not the Scripture commende yea a woman Prince to to suppresse Idolaters and tyraunts to gouerne and iudge Gods people And why may not now a woman Prince to deliuer vs as the Quéenes Maiestie hath done from the yoke of a greater tyrant and all his Idolaters to and
c. before you so all you stande nowe with vs stifely at this baye that they are euen as necessarie to saluation as the word of god And if ye let goe this tackling all come downe on anheape Whiche Alfonsus foreâ—…éeing or euer he woulde make his booke as he termes it agaynst heresies Iaciendum est solidissimum fundamentum c. VVe muste laye saythe he a moste sounde foundation wherewith we muste hereafter moste often defende our selues agaynst heretikes as with a moste sure bulwarck that the traditions and difinitions of the vniuersal church in those thinges that pertayne to faythe althoughe the euident scripture fayle for the proofe of them are of no lesse authoritie than the holy Scripture it selfe And agayne Mihi horum per tot seecula c. The authoritie of these most approued men by so many ages should suffice to me although I had by no former reason conuicted it Let vs therfore say that the Churche muste be obeyed in all things that are to be beleeued or to be done although the authoritie of scripture want Thus do you estéeme and stoutly stande to the defence of your ceremonies quite contrarie to all the foresaide auÌ„cient fathers that giue as we do all especiall prerogatiue to the only scriptures You were best therfore to call them heretikes UigilantiaÌ„s with vs for so your Sorbonists played with Erasmus Though he allowed many of your popishe ceremonies and durst not speake open mouthed agaynst any of them for it had beene to hotte for him since he dyd but touche them ful softly and yet they cried out vpon him a Uigilantian an Aerian an heretike as héere you doe A sore â—…adde ye knowe is soone broken and they are tender ware and dayntie to be delte withall the least worde in the worlde agaynst them will make a maruellous heretike Erasmus had but sayde Quo magis haeremus c. Howe muche more we cleaue to bodily ceremonies so muche the more wee encline to Iudaisme And dyd but wyshe on thys wyse Opto omnes esse tales c. I wishe that all men were suche that they mighte not muche neede bodily ceremonies or not giue so much vnto them And that Christ said Discipulis nihil istarum reruÌ„ prascribo I prescribe to my Disciples nought of these things eate this meate abstayne from that now rest now labour be clad thus touch not this handle not that if I were their master they shoulde not once learne to trust in these bodily thinges least they shoulde remayne weake alwayes He sayde but thus and lesse he coulde not well say and say any thing but Lorde what sturre the Sorbonistes made at the matter and howe they all to be heretiked hym Aerian Aetian Iouinian Uigilantian c. So that he was fayne for feare so muche as he mighte to sette a good collour on these your ceremonies and when he had salued the matter as well as he coulde what sayde he then in this retractation for them Iudaismun appello â—…on Iudaicam impietatem I call them Iudaisme not Iudaicall impietie And yet for al his excuses and commendations he was fayne to say Quanquam si Ecclesia tribuitur c. Although if that be attributed to the Church what so euer is prescribed of the Bishops or is done in the churches there are many coÌ„stitutions of Bishops of the which not with out cause all men make a publike complainte There are many ceremonies in certaine Churches the which ye may call either to no purpose or els foolish or else superstitious for commonly either some idle Deane or els some other meane man like him hath deuised them Oft times some old wife giuing monie therefore obteyneth that this or that be done now than certaine creepe in or if not so they breake in euen by the violence of the coÌ„mon peoples custome He should therefore not speake wickedly that should say the libertie of the Christian people is burdened with such constitutions and ceremonies especially when among them there are not a fewe that do no good at all to godlinesse but either to lucre or ambition Thus was Erasmus euen where he defendeth your ceremonies constrained to confesse Yea where he speaketh euen the best of them In his obseruandis c. In obseruing these saith he although they were ordayned to godlinesse the minde of many Christians is Iewishe either while they rest there neglecting those things that are of the spirit or els while with a preposterous Iudgement they attribute more to those outwarde things then to true godlinesse which is settled in the affections But euen as the hardnesse of the Iewes was to be kept in with so many prescriptions as it were with boundes so charitie waxing colde in Christians caused that the Bishops prescribed many things not vnlike the Iewishe prescriptions although to be kept with an vnlike minde For they are as it were certaine wagons wherein the infancie of little children is brought vnto the spirite As he sheweth after an example Exemplicausa c. For ensample the people is bid to bow their knees or their heads to god By this ceremonie the people is warned to submit their soule to God this helpe he that is perfect neede not who submitteth his minde to God in what state soeuer his bodie be And although that such as this the bodies comely gesture of knéeling which is not a ceremonie inueÌ„ted of your Bishops but taught vs in Gods word by Christ and his Apostles manner of prayer we not onely vse but also diuerse of your Churches Ceremonies be not refused of vs but kept yet are they vsed farre otherwise than your prelates vrged them or your people kept them reposing in them as Erasmus saith Proram puppim Sanctimoniae The whole stay of Religion Tali hominuÌ„ genere quoniam c. Bicause saith he I saw the worlde full of such kinde of men I now and then call them backe to the studies of true godlinesse from the admiration of ceremonies But to admonish to trust to ceremonies I neither thought it necessary nor safe Of the worde of trusting let other looke to it vnto me to whom this worde to trust soundeth to leane principally vnto it soundeth hardly to trust to the workes of men and to trust to Ceremonies Neither finde I these voices either in the diuine writings or in the writings of godly men Thus hardly was Erasmus driueÌ„ to his defence about your Ceremonies by the Facultie of the Diuines of Paris that vrged the necessitie vertue and confidence in them In the ende of all which conflictes as he saith to them so say I to you M. Stap. Quid autem his tot c. Of all these so many propositions what is done that shoareth vp Christian Religion that the people should beleeue a Monkes cowle was auailable to heale diseases that passing ouer Christe we should with petitions sollicite the Saincts That
worshipped ye then and that with such high worship to your solemne Saint Thomas Becket that dyed for no matter of Religion at all But eyther for his obstinacie agaynste his liege Lorde and agaynst all the Barons Spirituall and Temporall of the Realme or if ye colour it neuer so fayre yet was it but in mainteyning his honour and the priuileges of the Clergie and that contrarie to the auncient custome of the Realme except yée will graunt that the Popishe Religion doeth consiste herein Whiche if ye bée ashamed to confesse vpbrayde not then for shame false Martyrs vnto vs nor yet the Canonising of wicked Sainctes We vse no such Canonization at all It redoundeth on your selfe on your Legende on your Popes and on your Pope holy Saincts Whome by this rule you make both Donatists Montanists Manicheans or what soeuer Heretikes ye can obiect besides As for all these Comparisons hitherto betwéene the Protestantes and the Donatists wherein ye thinke ye haue be stowed great cunning there is not 〈◊〉 poyâ—… that is not violently wrested to make it séeme to touch vs and not one poynt that being returned on your selues doeth not rightly and fully hitte you home againe And therefore I for my part am content as you concluding say you be To ende this talke with the whole conference leauing it to the indifferent Reader to consider whether the Popishe Catholikes or the Protestants drawe nearer to the Donatists To come newe at length to the sixt and last parte of this Chapter which consistes in remâ—…ing such motiues as the Bishop alleageth to burtheâ—… Master Feckenham with the practise of the Donatists First master Stapleton deuideth these motiues in twaine Let vs then sayth master Stapleton proceede foorth and consider vpon what good motiues ye charge master Feckenham to be a Donatist whiche are to say truth none other but falsehoode and follie But as ye surmise the one is bicause hee craftily and by a subtile shifte refuseth the prooues of the olde Testament as the Donatists did The other bicause hee with the sayde Donatists should auouch that secuâ—…er Princeâ—… haue not to meddle in matters of Religion or causes ecclesiasticall nor to punishe any man for such causes These two motiues ye say Master Stapleton are to say the truth none other but falsehoode and follie In déede they are the worsâ—… by comming through so false a marchantes handes as yours For shame either tell the wordes as they â—…e at least the true and full effect of them or neuer sette them out in a distinct letter syâ—… you so often but euer falsly vpbrayde the Bishop hereof Else all the follie and falsehoode will proue to be in your selfe and not in the Bishops motiues The Bishop spâ—…ke not of Princes medling or punishing for Ecclesiasticall 〈◊〉 as though the Donatists simpliâ—… denied that anâ—… yâ—… graunted Princes yet so much as to meddle or punishe for your Ecclesiasticall causes that is to say to be your executioners therin as though the Emperors other Christian Princes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more vpon them at that time But the Bishop tolde how the godly fathers craued aide assistance of the magistrats and rulers to reforme them to reduce them to the vâ—…itie of the church to represse their heresies with their au thoritie godly lawes made for that purpose to whome it belonged of duetie and whose especiall seruice of Christ is to see care and prouide that their subiects be gouerned defended and mainteyned in the true and syncere religion of Christ without all errours superstitions and heresies This is that the Bishop wrote and to proue this he alleageth Saint Augustine Thus did Christian Princes gouerne in Ecclesiasticall causes then This did the Donatists then denie vnto them and this do now the Papists denie and ye come sneaking in and tell vs the Bishoppes motiue was this In charging Master Feckenham to followe the Donatists by cause hee with the Donatistes shoulde auouche that seculer Princes haue not to meddle in matters of Religion or causes Ecclesiasticall nor to punishe anie man for suche causes As though the controuersie had bâ—…ne for anie kinde of medling or punishing whiche you sâ—…ming to graunt to Princes to bée your seruaunts and droyles in suche ecclesiasticall causes and so farre as you assigne them might therefore séeme not to play the Donatists when ye play their partes so liuely as can bée and so subtilly that the Donatistes were but Babes vnto you in séeming to giue them some medling or punishing in Ecclesiasticall causes but if they meddle with or punishe you or anie other otherwise than ye commaunde and restrayne them you so little then suffer them to meddle in Ecclesiasticall matters that with solemne curses ye debarre them from medling in anie temporall and ciuill matters too so farre ye passe the Donatists For shame master Stapleton tell your tale plainely that we may sée whether M. Feckenham played the Donatistes part or no or else your doubling wyll declare your selfe to be a Donatist also for companie But let vs sée how ye aunswere these motiues euen as your selfe propounde them The one is say you bicause he craftily and by a subtile shifte refuseth the proues of the old Testament as the Donatistes did Your Stale Iestes M. Stapleton of a fine blast of a horne â–ª of a â—…oule slawe of a blinde betell blunte shifte I ouer passe them When M. Feckenham ye say offereth to yelde if ye can proue this regiment either by the order that Christ left behinde him in the new Testament either by the Doctours either by Councels or els by the continuall practise of any one Churche thinke you M. Horne that this is not a large and an ample offer The largenesse of this offer is not here in questioÌ„ M. St. the offer is large and ample inough â–ª taken of the Bishop at his handes and proued vnto him at his owne demaunde It remaineth then that he stande to his promise and yelde to the truth or else he sheweth that he minded to offer more than he purposed to perfourme Onely now it is examined why here he specifieth the new Testament and quite leaueth out the old Testament â–ª This doing in this pointe saith the B. smelleth of a Donatist Nay say you There is not so much as any coÌ„iecture to gather this vppon yea the old Testament is not by this offer excluded but verely included For if the new Testament which rehearseth many things out of the old haue any thing out of the old Testament that make for this regiment if any Doctour old or new if any Councell haue any thing out of the old Testament that serue for this regiment then is Master Feckenham concluded yea by his owne graunt For so the Doctour or Councell hath it he is satisfied according to his demaunde VVhereby it followeth he doth not refuse but rather allowe and affirme the proufes of the old Testament It might
haue thought they had done God good seruice too so that he would haue maintayned them And do not you euen so what els maketh ye crie vpon the Princes beyond the seas with all kinde of torments to destroy the Protestants If Princes would aduise them selues or euer they beléeued you so lightly and would not destroy their subiects till they had sit in iudgmâ—…t heard discussed both parties causes throughly ye would not be halfe so hastie Ye would then crie to the contrarie that you must only be iudges they must onely beleue you strike onely them whom you shall bidde them strike Contrarywise where the Princes espying your falshood forsake your errours and sette out euen very milde lawes against you then ye change your coppie and crie out euery thing is extreme crueltie ye are too too sore handled and oppressed then ye extoll beyonde the moone lenitie and sufferance and winche like a gald horse at the least thing that toucheth you And thus euery way do you still shew your selues to be the very Donatistes Now that ye haue as you conceyue with your selfe giuen vs so great a foyle ye enter into your thirde parte saying VVe may now proceede to the remnant of your booke sauing that this in no wise must be ouerhipped that euen by your owne wordes here ye purge M. Feckenham from this crime ye laide vnto him euen now for refusing the proufeâ—… taken out of the old Testament Now for God M. St. since hitherto ye haue cléered him so sclenderly that ye haue more bewrapped him and your selfe also in this crime let nothing in any case be forgotten or ouerhipped that any wayes may helpe the matter forwarde for hitherto it rather hath gone backward but now there is good hope M. Feckenham shall take a good purgation euen of the Bishops owne making that you M. Stap. will minister to him which wil so worke vpon him make him haue so good a stoole that he shal be clerely purged of this crime of Donatistes â—…o to then M. Stapl and let vs sée how apothecarylike you can minister the same For if as ye say say you the order gouernment that Christ left behind in the Gospell new Testament is the order rule gouernment in ecclesiastical causes practised by the Kings of the old Testament then will it follow that M. Feckenham yelding to the gouernment of the new doth not exclude but â—…ather comprehende the gouernment of the old Testament also both being especially as ye say all one Is this the purgation M. St. that ye will minister to M. Feckenham would to God ye could make him receyue anâ—… brooke this sentence if you would take it also I warrent ye it would so purge you of your old leuen sowre dough that ye should no more be Donatists nor Papistes neither if ye receyue and well digest this little sentence The order and gouernment that Christ left behinde in the new Testament is the order rule and gouernment in Ecclesiasticall causes practised by the kinges of the old Testament For then giue ye Princes that that ye haue all this while denied theÌ„ But do ye thinke M. Feckenham will wittingly and willingly receiue this sentence that which in déede followeth necessarily thereon The sentence is true but M. Feck for all that may be a lier and you another For I warrant you M. Feck granteth this no â—…urder than as the Donatists he may temper it to make it seeme to serue his turne Why say you if he grant the onâ—… he doth not exclude but rather comprehende the other Nay M. St. M. Feck coÌ„preheÌ„des it not but shoonnes it as agaynst him by your owne confession But the olde being comprehended by the newe Master Feckenham is contrarie wise by force of argument graunting the newe enforced by the olde Not that he comprehendeth it but is comprehended of it and driuen to yeelde thereto of his aduersarie by conclusion of reasoning the one including the other But rather than he will do this voluntarily he will rather exclude them both the olde and the newe testament also and as he hath done burne them both togither The. 20. Diuision THe Bishop in this diuision first gathereth his full conclusion of all these testimonies into this argument What gouernment order and dutifulnesse so euer belonging to any God hath prefigured and promised before hande by his Prophetes in the holy scriptures of the olde Testament to be performed by Christ those of his Kingdom that is the gouernment order and dutifulnesse set forth and required in the Gospell or new testament But that faythfull Emperours Kinges and Rulers ought of dutie as belonging to their office to claime and take vpon them the gouernment authoritie power care and seruice of God the Lorde in matters of Religion or causes Ecclesiasticall was an order and dutifulnesse for them prefigured and forepromised of God by his Prophetes in the Scriptures of the olde Testament as Saint Augustine hath sufficiently witnessed Ergo Christian Emperors Kings and Rulers owe of dutie as belonging to their office to clayme and take vpon them the gouernment authoritie power care and seruice of God their Lorde in matters of Religion or spirituall ecclesiasticall causes is the gouernment order and dutifulnesse setforth and required in the Gospell or new Testament The Bishop hauing thusfully concluded these Testimonies he yet confirmeth them further with more authorities of the Prophete Esay with Lyra his exposition therevpon and the example of Constantine for proufe of the same At this master Stapleton first carpeth by certaine marginall notes or euer he blowe vp the Chapter of his Counterblast thereto The minor of the Bishops conclusion for the Princes gouernment authoritie power care c. he grauÌ„teth but not such supreme gouernment sayth he as the othe prescribeth He graunteth also Saint Augustine to witnesse this the Princes gouernment but no such large and supreme gouernment as we attribute now to them Againe he graunteth this supreme gouernment is in causes ecclesiasticall â–ª but not in all causes ecclesiasticall And so graunting that the Bishop concludeth well in some such thing you conclude not sayth he in all things and causes and therefore you conclude nothing agaynst vs. Lastly he graunteth all the Bishops testimonies concerning Constantine but he denieth that it maketh any thing for vs. Nowe after these marginall notes prefixed he entreth into his Chapter pretending to open the weakenesse of the Bishops conclusion and of other his proues oute of holie Scripture And first his aunswere to this diuision he deuideth in thrée partes First he graunteth all that the Bishop hath sayde but denieth that it is sufficient Secondly he quarrelleth about this that the Bishop calleth the Emperour Constantine a Bishop as Eusebius nameth him Thirdly he chalengeth him for calling Idoll Image Now to the first parte to sée whether all these grauntes make sufficiently for vs and conclude against him yea
it may rather confounde for they confounde their offices turning Bishops not as it were into lay men but into lay men in deede What the Bishops wordes do meane is most playne to a man of meane witte that list not to Iangle about nothing neither the wordes importe any such meaning nor this is any thing in question the ministeriall office but the supreme gouernment which are two farre different things But since that to no purpose ye chalenge the B. for curtalling Eusebius words let vs behold how you do set them downe For thus say you he saith to the Bishops Vos quidem eorum quae intus sunt in Ecclesia agenda ego vero eorum qua extra sunt Episcopus à Deo sum constitutuâ—… You are Bishops saith he of those thinges that are to be done within the Church I am Bishop of outwarde thinges which answere of his may satisfie any reasonable man for all that ye bring in here of Constantine or all that ye shall afterwarde bring in which declareth him no supreme Iudge or chiefe determiner of causes Ecclesiasticall but rather the contrarie and that he was the ouerseer in ciuill matters And the most that may be enferred hereof is that he had the procuration and execution of Churche matters which I am assured all Catholikes will graunt Ye would faine I sée M. Stapl. reuoke your graunt and it could be cleanly conueyde or so to limite it that it might not appéere ye haue granted that that all your fellowes denie But this reuocation is to late Neuerthelesse fuli pretely ye compasse the matter to defeate all these most plaine not wordes but doings of Constantine by shoouing at this name B. shop in the Emperour which in any case ye caÌ„ not abide And therefore as who though B. went aboute to confounde the offices of a Bishop and of a Prince and thereto had concealed Eusebius words ye solemnly take on yâ—…n to set them out both in Latine and in English. But tell me by that false faith of yours M. Stapleton why ye haue not translated the wordes aright in English that ye haue set downe in Latine did ye sée in déede they made nothing for you but rather much against you is the English of intus in Ecclesia within the Church And the English of eorum quae extra Outward ciuill things or matters or Ego vero c. Episcopus à ' Deo sum constitutâ—… I am a Bishop what is manifest corruption of plaine wordes and euident sense if this be not this is past cutting of the tayle M. St. or slitting his nose and paring his eares to dresse it like a perfect curtall but euen to cutte both buttockes and heade away and make it a carrion karkasse this translating is trans I ordanem in déede But the wordes of Constantine the sense are plaine You saith he speaking to the spirituall pastours are Bishops of those thinges that in the Churche are to be done within or inwardly But I am appointed of God a Bishop of those things that are forthout or outwardly As who should say your Bishoply office in Gods Churche is in the ministeris of those things that worke inwardly that perce the heart enter into the soule cleaue the thoughtes in sunder and properly belong to the inwarde man the liuely worde of god My Bishoply office in Gods Churche is distinguished from this and is in things without that is in the outwarde setting forth and publique direction of Gods worde to be duly taught by you Thus both their offices were in Gods Church the matter and groundworke of both their Bishoprikes was Gods true religion But the doing of the one was pertayning to the inwarde man the doing of the other to the outwarde man. And this is the very distinctioÌ„ that Constantine maketh which being not falsely translated as you do and so misunderstoode may satisfie as ye say any reasonable man But your vnderstanding is very vnreasonable to vnderstand by inward things things ecclesiasticall and by outward things only ciuill things in déede they be out and quite out of the consideration of the Churche But wherefore then called he him selfe a Bishop also with them yea an vniuersall Bishop as Eusebius termeth him but to declare that his ouersighte was in the same matter that was theirs the matter was Gods truth and Religion in bothe the manner was outwarde or inwarde as eithers Bishoprike required Otherwise if he had meant onely of ciuill matters as you expounde he had bene no more a Bishop thereby than the very Soldane or great Turke or any other Heathen Prince that ouersee their ciuill matters very circumspectly And so as ye did in your fourth Chapter ye make Constantine for all these notable things in him that your selfe before haue graunted no better than an infidell Prince in this behalfe For by outward ye say is meant ciuill matters But the ciuill gouernement ye say also reacheth no furder than the peoples quietnesse wealth abundance and prosperouse maintenance that these thinges are common as well to the heathen as to the Christian gouernment Thinke ye M. Stapleton these Fathers meant no furder gouernment nor in other matters than these when they called Constantine an vniuersall Bishop and that Constantine measured his office no furder when he called him selfe by the name of a Bishop â–ª for shame M. Stapleton deface not to Christian a Prince after so Turkish a manner nor thereto so manifestly falsifie your authour nor abuse your reader with such a shamelesse impudence Well say you And the moste that may be inferred thereof is that he had the procuration and execution of Churche matters which I am assured all Catholikes will graunt May we be assured M. Stapleton on your worde that all your popish Catholikes will graunt euen thus much For I verily feare they will graunt it no furder than it pleaseth them And where ye are so readie to assure vs of others graunts what assurance haue we had alreadie of all your owne liberall graunts when ye were disposed to wrangle as now againe ye do for how agreeth this euen with your former graunt that Princes might make lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion that Princes might take some regiment vppon them in Ecclesiasticall causes yea might do as much as all these ensamples specifie and that now ye make the most to be but the procuration and execution of Church matters Although what ye meane by these wordes ye tell not would ye haue them onely the Churches that is as you meane by the Churche onely the Priests proctours and executioners now truly ye limite them a full faire office But thinke ye the name of B. and vniuersall B. did importe nothing els was that the most that may be inferred thereof and yet that is more than onely to be their executioner as ye said before to be as ye adde here to it their proctour also Yea it is
of God you translate it neither appoint any worshipping of God. As though they might not appoint that true worship of God that God hath appointed him selfe to be worshipped by Where Melancthon speaketh only of appointing other new deuised worships such as the Popish worships are Likewise speaking of the functions ye clappe in of your owne these wordes of bothe Magistrates calling the ministers magistrates whiche wordes Melancthon hath not And thus ye loue alâ—…e to tell your fale falsly And as you thus deale with Melancthon so froÌ„ him ye runne to M. Nowell and say Yea M. Nowell him selfe with a great stomacke biddeth vs shew where they denie that godly and learned Priestes might iudge according to the sinceritie of doctrine As though wheÌ„ the Prince and his successours are made supreme gouernours without any limitacion it fall not often out that the Bishop be he neuer so learned or godly shall not once be admitted to iudge of true doctrine except the doctrine please the Prince Ye will neuer leaue your falsehood M. Stap. wâ—… sayth that Princes made supreme gouernours without any limitation Who saith the Bishop be he neuer so godly or learned shall not once be admitted to iudge of true doctrine except the doctrine please the Prince Iâ—… there any that saith so or doth so except your Popâ—…e He in déed chalengeth a supreme gouernaunce without limits in as large and â—…ple 〈◊〉 as belongeth vnto christ He will suffer no doctrine but that which pleaseth him and he will be the onely chiefe Iudge thereof This is not the gouernance that we ascribe to Princes but such as is limitted by Gods worde such as stretcheth not further thaâ—… the 〈◊〉 of their dominions suche as suffreth godly and learned Priestes according to Gods worde to iudge of the synceritie of doctrine for this you confesse that master Nowell sayth and therefore ye confesse your selfe to be a 〈◊〉 lyer and to speake contrariâ—… when ye bring in thâ—… the Protestants to acknowledge a limitation and â—…t 〈◊〉 say we make a gouernement without any lymitation Neither is 〈◊〉 any contradiction in master Nowels saying to be anie more gathered than of Melancthonâ—… wordes Princes are supreme gouernours Ergo Prelates may not iudge of true doctrine Which is as wiâ—…e a sequele as the other agaynst Melancthon Ye might wel conclude it against your Pope that chalengeth such as absolute 〈◊〉 that all the iudgement of doctrine shoulde 〈◊〉 to him to iudge according as he please botâ—… quite besides and quite contrarie to Gods worde As though say you there had not bene a statute made declaring and enacting the Queenes maiestie yea hir highnesse successours without exception or limitation of godly and vngâ—…dly and yet I trowe no Bishops to be the supreme gouernour in all things and causes as well spirituall as temporall As though M. St. this were a good argument The statute declareth hir highnesse supreme gouernment â–ª without limiting it vnder the Bishops gouernment Ergo the Bishops can not iudge of true doctrine and the Princes gouernment is without all limitation As though their were no difference betwéene supreme gouernment and euery other gouernment or betwéene gouernment and iudgement And as though the statute ex 〈…〉 not it selfe what kinde of supreme gouernment is yâ—â—lded in all things and causes Ecclesiasticall nothing debarring the Bishops and ministers of their iudgement and ministerie but rather ouerséeing them to giue their iudgement and administration rightly As though you master Horne say you had not written that in both tables the Prince hath authoritie to erect â–ª and correct to farther and restraine to allow and punish the vertue and vices thereto apperteyning As though your selfe M. Stapl. had not written also and graunted the same euen right now and that not for your selfe onely but for all your followes besides to agree with Melancthon and Caluin therein Or as though say you the gouernour in all causes is not also a iudge in all causes â–ª Or as though M. St. his gouernment or iudgment were any preiudice to the gouernment or iudgement that belongeth to the Pastours office Or as though say you it were not commonly so taken and vnderstanded of a thousand in England which haue taken the othe to their great domnaâ—…ion but if they repent Or as though not rather on the contrarie it were not your so wilfull and malitious mistaking of it with a peuish obstinacie to withstande the manifest truth that refuse the othe of your dutifull obedience to your great damnation in deede but if yee repent betymes And thus still aunswering your As though with another as though ye can finde no contradiction nor absurditie neyther in Melancthon Caluin Master Nowell nor the Bishops sayings herein As though â–ª your selfe iâ—… the meane time were clere aboorde and not in euery one of your quarels either mâ—…st fonde and absurde or quite contrarie to your owne sayings and graunts made so late before The conclusion of this your second part is this You therefore master Horne â–ª which talke so confusely and generally of the Princes authoritie in both tables do yet say nothing nor proue nothing this generall and absolute authoritie in all things and causes as lustily without exception the othe expresseth and therefore ye bring indeed nothing to proue your principall purpose to the which all your proues shoulde be directed For generall and confuse talke of the princes authoritie you belie the Bishop master Stap. he made so plaine and flatte a limitation that you coulde not abide it â–ª it is your Pope that chalengeth such a general and absolute authoritie and your selfe that talke of the Princes authoritie confusely to deface Princes as confounding and intermedling â–ª in the office and authoritie pâ—…rteyning to the clergie whiche the othe requireth not further than such supreme authoritie as ouerseâ—…th careth prouideth for directeth and gouerneth all matter persons Ecclesiasticall and temporal so well in matters of the first table as in the seconde that is to say so well in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall matters as temporall Quod ad externam disciplinam Quod externoâ—… mores attinet So farre as perteynes to externall discipline and belongs to externall behauiour And this is not onely the issue in question but also as is proued compreheÌ„deth the othe and principall purpose whervpon ye call so fast to haue all the proues directed therto as the Bishop here hath done and your selfe hath graunted the same Your third part is a quarelling at the sentence of s. Paule cited by the B. Tim. 2. that kings and rulers are ordeyned of God for these two purposes that their people mighte liue a peaceable lyfe throughe their gouernment both in godlinesse and in honestie comprehending in these two wordes whatsoeuer is commaunded in the first or second table Here as ye sée hath the Bishop cited once againe another sentence oute of the new testament how fitly to the matter how
there is wedlocke But what say we to Philip had he not foure daughters but where soure daughters were there was both a wife and matrimonie But what then doth Christ he was indeede borne of a virgin but he came to a mariage and brought his gift with him They haue saith she no wine and he turned water into wine with virginitie honoring mariage commending with his gift the thing that was done that thou shouldest not abhorre mariage â–ª but shouldest hate whooredome For at my perill I behoofe the saluation although thou shalt wed a wife Looke to thy selfe a woman if shee be good is an helper to thee c. All this more saith Chrysostome in the coÌ„mendation of the ministers mariage euen in the same Homelie cited by you M. St. which estate of mariage to be ioyned in sith the Pope his Priests can not abide and alleage such impediments as here Chrysostome confuteth it is an euident argument by the way that they 〈◊〉 nothing lesse than such Priests as Chrysostome ascribeth this spirituall kingdome of the ministerie of Gods worde and Sacraments vnto and where Chrysostome as your selfe haue cited him saith that the Princeforceth the Priest exhorteth the one by necessitie the other by giuing counsell the one hath visible armour the other spirituall Contrarywise your Pope not only exhorteth but extorteth and forceth too not only by counsell but by necessine extreme violence Not only pretending spirituall armour such as he calleth his curses with booke bell and candle but also with visible armour muironed about where he rideth or on mens backes is caried with a gard of Swarâ—…trutters Switchers with gunnes Harquebushes partesans glayues and weapons as if it were Iudas with his armed bande to take our Sauiour Christ. And he claymeth thriurisoiction of â—…oth the swords wresting thertâ—… the wordes of the Disciple Eâ—…ce 〈◊〉 gladiâ—… hic Beholde heere are two swordes to the temporall and visible armour so well as to the spiritual Wherevpon Eonifacius the eight did not onely hang seuen keyes at his girdle in token of his spirituall power but girte him selfe also with a sworde in token of his temporall power These Prelates the refore are not such kinde of Priests as Chrysostome speaketh of Neither notâ—… I this as a faultâ—… in this or that person but as errours defended and maynteined by them for the aduauncement of their naughtie Priesthoode What maketh then this sentence of the excellencie of the Priestes ministerie for the ministerie of the Popes Priesthoode that is all the quitâ—… contrarie Suche false Priestes therefore the Prince hath authoritie to remoue them and to place suchâ—… Priests as Chrysostome speaketh of and so to bowe his head vnder their hands that is to oâ—…ey their ministerie which is no derogation to the matter in hande of the Princes supreme gouernement Thus muche M. Stap. to your sentence alleaged out of Chrysostome vpon the which you and all your side do harpe so often and yet beeing well considered it not onely makes nothing for you but muche agaynst you Nowe to your argument that ye gather héere vpon saying Nowe then M. Horne I frame you suche an argument The Priest is the Princes superiour in some causes ecclesiasticall Ergo The Prince is not the Priestes superiour in all causes ecclesiasticall The antecedent is clearely proued out of the words of Chrysostome before alleaged Thus. The Priest is superiour to the Prince in remission of sinnes by Chrysostome â–ª but remission of sinnes is a cause ecclesiastical or spirituall Ergo The Priest is the Princes superiour in some causes ecclesiasticall or spirituall To this argument béeing thus framed vpon the which M. Stap greatly triumpheth I answere it hath thrée fallations in it for fayling The first in this worde superiour béeing vnderstoode two ways either in respect of the ministerie or function or in respect of the publique ouersight ordering and direction In the former sense the maior is true The Priest is superiour to the Prince in respect of his ministerie or function But this worde superiour béeing thus vnderstoode in the conclusion for superioritie onely in the ministerie or function concludeth nothing agaynst the Princes superioritie which is only the publike ouersight ordering and direction that this superiour ministerie and function be not abused Now if the word superiour be not thus vnderstoode but simply to be the superiour or in the later sense that is to say the Priest is superiour in the publike ouersight ordering and direction that the office be duely administred by the minister then is this maior false for the Priest is not thus the Princes superiour The second fallation is in the words remission of sinnes If he meane thereby the ouersighte to sée suche remission be duely made by the Priest then is the maior also false The Priest is not the Princes superiour therin If he means by remission of sinnes the action of remitting them or the function of the office in pronouncing them remitted then is the maior true but the minor false For so remission of sins is not a cause ecclesiasticall but an action or function ecclesiasticall Wheron ariseth the third fallation of these words ecclesiasticall cause Which the statute and the title mentioning that the Prince hath supremacie in all ecclesiasticall causes he wilfully wresteth as though all actions and functions eccl were yéelded to the Princes supremacie Where neither the Prince requireth nor the statute title yéeldeth any such supremacie in the actions but onely a supremacie in the causes not to do them but to sée them rightly done And thus by resolutioÌ„ of these words it appeareth how the Priest in one sense as Chrysostome sayth is superiour to the Prince not only in this one thing of remission of sinnes But in al other actions of his dutie and the Prince is farre inferiour to him and yet the Prince in the other sense of the general direction and publike ouersight is in this and all other causes eccl. superiour to the Priest and the Priest farre inferiour vnto him And so the superioritie of the Priest hindreth nothing the supremacie of the Prince Master St. hauing now as he thinketh by this mightie argument wonne the fielde and quite confounded the Byshop setteth out as a trophaâ—…m or monument of his historie this marginall note Euidently proued by S. Chrysostome the Prince not to be the supreme gouernour in causes ecclesiasticall And crieth out for ioy Which being most true what thing caÌ„ you coÌ„clude of al ye haue or shal say to win your purpose or that ye heere presently say And thus on the triumph of this argument M. St. reiecteth all that the B. hath said as insufficieÌ„t would returne vpon him the sentence of S. Augustine against the Donatists that the Byshop cited agaynst M. Feck Wherein he bringeth nothing a freshe that is not before declared and answered vnto besides vayne words of course worthy no other answere than to be returned
againe to common furder of Constantines doings I pray ye do not as hitherto ye haue done in other answears telling the reader ye will specifie it more at large in such a place hereafter when ye come to the answering of that place ye tell him againe that ye specified that more at large before and so sende your Reader from hence thither and from thence againe hither to trotte vp and down he satisfied in neither place Howbeit this is a good readie answere for you for by this shift one answere serueth both places Neuerthelesse what néede any more large specifying either hers or there For ye tell vs roundly to make a shorte tale of the matter that all is to shorte Neither this say you â–ª that is here alleaged neither al the residue which ye reherse of Constantine with whose doings ye furnish hereafter six ful leaues caÌ„ import this superioritie This is in déede a round answere and a shorte and if it were withall as true â–ª ye néede not M. Stapleton promise to specifiâ—… it more at large hereafter but belike ye thought this answere was to short and therefore ye do well to referre the Bishop furder As for the Bishops present allegation out of Constantine fully importeth this superioritie that the ministerie of the Prince hath to set forth Ecclesiasticall causes so well as Temporall or rather much more in so muche as it is the Princes best ministerie to set forth by his decrees the true religion the lawe of God and the most holy faith and to remoue and punish all euils that trouble the worlde such as chiefly are errours Heresies Schismes superstitioÌ„s abuses false or wicked pastors c. all which is euident by Constantines owne auouching And I pray you M. St. marke all these things a little more aduisedly tell me then what wanteth of the issue in question betwene these parties that the Prince hath supreme gouernment so well in Ecclesiasticall causes as in Temporall And whether these be facings without proufe or halfe proufe in the world as ye say or rather these be not your to to impudent facings and bracings without any proufe or half proufe or any iote of proufe in the world but say only it importeth it not neither tel â–ª how nor why and say it is here alleaged out of place and ye will specifie it there more aâ—… large and so shift it off here vnanswered and there say here ye haue answered to it and neither here nor there meddle furder withit Doth this trow you importe a full sufficient answere The. 24. Diuision WHereas the Bishop on S. Paules sentence declared before out of Eusebius commending Constantine that the Princes best ministerie consisteth in setting forth all true Religion and abolishing all false doctrine and errours in this Diuision he confirmeth the same with the iudgement of another later Ecclesiasticall historier Nicephorus whom the Papists set out for Catholike Comparing in these things these two Emperours the one with the other Paleologus with Constantine commending this Emperour of Gréece aboue al other things for this his rule and dealing in reforming religion as did Constantine For which cause as Constantine called it his best ministerie so Nicephorus calleth it a vertue among all other belonging to an Emperour and most seemely for his imperiall dignitie which what it is and wherein this ministerie doth chiefly consist the Bishop gathereth togither diuerse sentences out of the Preface of Nicephorus to the Emperour in his commendation for his zeale his defence his chiefe authoritie his gouernaunce his restoring his clensing his establishing his setting forth of true religion and pulling downe the contrarie whereby Nicephorus protesting that he speaketh nothing for fanor or statterie declareth his iudgement to agrée with Eusebius on Saint Paules sentence that the Princes supreme gouernment in these things is his best ministerie and most properly belonging to hys charge and office To this allegation of Nicephorus Master Stapleton deuideth his Counterblast into two windes The former blast procéedeth altogither out of his stinking breath of rayling Rhetorike to deface not onely the Bishop his aduersarie the Bishop of Sarum and the Homelies set forth agaynst Idolatrie chalenging them for lyes and forgeries but also to deface the authoritie of Nicephorus and the Emperour whome he affyrmeth to be wicked and wretched Heretikes In the other blast admitting the authoritie of Nicephorus he bloweth as fast to ouercome the force of the Bishops allegations as insufficient to proue hys purpose In his first part to get the more credite for plaine and true dealing with his Reader and to blemish the Bishop with suspition of cloked dissembling he promiseth saying But first we will dissipate and discusse the mist that master Horne hath cast before thine eyes where indéede none was for the Bishop most clearely set downe the wordes of Nicephorus Master Stapleton himselfe of purpose rayseth a miste whereby not onely he dimmeth the Readers eyes but also wandreth in his owne mist vp and downe slunâ—…bling at many impertinent matters and al besides the purpose For whereto else serueth all that he discourseth about the Greâ—…ians Heresie of the holy Ghostes procéeding or the Councell of Lions of Michaell Paleâ—…logus that agréed with the Latins therein of the â—…recians reuolt of the malicious spite of the Gréeke Bishoppes of the denying Michaell his buriall what néede all these declarations Which if the Bishop had set forth as he had nothing thereby opened the matter so had he giuen occasion to Master Stapleton of iust reproouing him for straying of purpose from the marke and dalâ—…ying in vayne circumstaunces And nowe that he hath not stoode in anye suche long 〈◊〉 and fodings off of the matter master Stapleton sayeth he casteth mistes And thus which way soeuer the Bishop take â–ª Master Stapleton woulde finde an occasion to picke a quarrell And pretending to dissipate and discusâ—…e a myste in the fayre and cleare Sunne shyne hée rayseth suche a smoke that blundering foorth he wotteth not well whether he stâ—…uibleth hee can not tell on whome and falleth into a bitter innectiue at the authour of the Homelie â–ª agaynst Idolatrie onely vpon this occasion that he chaunced on the name of Michaell Paleologus Wherein he playeth as I heard once of a â—…opishe Priest in Cambrige that in his Sermon naming Abraham in his discourse to dissipate and discusse all mystes as he pretended but most likely to stretche out his matter beganne to tell what manner a man Abraham was and hauing named his sonne beganne to tell of Isaac and so of Iacob and on a rowe of all the twelue Patriarkes and of Egypte of the lande of promiss of the wildernesse and waded so farre that he had quyte loste himselfe in the Wildernesse and his theame be beganne withall After whiche sorte fareth Master Stapleton bicause the Bishoppe mentioned Michaell Paleologus herevppon he entreth into an exclamation agaynste the Authour of the
commendations these vertues so highly coÌ„mended are both a goodly and godly president for all Princes to set before them Thus much therefore to the former winde of your counterblast Now to the later which after all these long discourses draweth somewhat néerer to the matter in admitting the authour Nicephorus his testimonies and the Emperours doings and answering to the Bishops allegations thereon The effect whereof is to improue all that is alleaged as insufficient to inferre this supremacie And it is quartred into foure partes Firste prâ—…supposing this Prince to be Andronicus all 〈◊〉 doing about to be the reuoking of Michâ—…els yelding to the Pope at the Councell at Lions he 〈◊〉 to proue that not 〈◊〉 but the Priestes though wicked had the chiefe â—…uperioritie Secondly he 〈◊〉 against the gathering and sorting of the Bishops 〈◊〉 Thirdly he entreth into the inualiditie of the allegacions And fourthly here vpon he maketh his triumph and 〈◊〉 thanks for the victorie In the first parcell sayeth M. Stapleton But now M. Horne what if these hereticall doyngs do nothing releeue your cause nor necessarily induce the chiefe superioritie in all causes and perchaunce in no cause Ecclesiasticall concerning the finall discussing and determination of the same verily without any perchaunce it is most plainly and certainely true it doth not For euen in this Schismaticall councell and hereticall fynagog the Bishops played the chiefe parte and they gaue the finall though a wrong and a wicked iudgement VVho also shewed their superioritie though vngodly vppon this mans Father in that they would not suffer him to be enterred Princelike them selues much more worthy to haue bene cast after their decease to the Dogges and Rauens vppon â—… durtie doonghill What those Priests were worthie we haue your worthie iudgement M. Stapleton whereby we perceiue your Priests can erre although they be Massemongers and by your former sayings Reuerent worshippers of Images too But all will not helpe they are adiudged to be cast on a dâ—…rtje doonghill to be deuoured of Dogges and Raues bicause they would not suffer â–ª Michael Paleologus their Emperour who notwithstanding intruded him selfe by violence to be enterred Prince like I pray you M. Stap. be an vpright iudge What then are those Priests much more worthy that would not suffer their liuing Princes to vse their princely authoritie what are those Popes more worthie â–ª that haue not onely not suffred their predecessours to be enâ—…orted Pope like but haue pulled them out of the ground againe and hacked and mangled them What are those prelates worthie that haue caused the Priestes and the people to renounce their obedience to their sworne Princes I thinke ye will not say these should be â–ª call out on durtie doonghils and yet their faulte is as much as the other it is to be feared least they shal be cast out into vtter darkenesse â–ª But ye do a little to much charge the Gréeke Priestes with the whole burden of this crime It was not onely they as Uolaterane saith but it was the whole nation as Baptist Egnatius writeth as is also noted in Laugus his margine Ex qua tuntam â—…nuidiam â–ª c. VVherevppon he gotte so great enuie of the Greeke notion that neither they performed the obsequies of the dead also denied him the place of his Sepulchre But you applie it onely vnto the Priestes that their superioritie might the more appeare For which purpose you direct all your tale to sette foorth their superioritie euen in such as ye call wicked and hereticall doings whereas the Princes claime is not for any such superioritie in wicked doings but onely in Godly and Christian causes Ye driue all the matter to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the holy Ghosts proceeding and to Andronicus cealing therein against the dealing of his Father In 〈◊〉 thus do the last editions of Nicephorus Printed at Paris 1562. and 1566. whether truely or no is doubtfull to say referre al to Andronicus and euer in the place of Emaâ—…el put Andronicus and for driâ—…ing away of the Turkes put in the anulling of the doings at Lions Councell Which sentence soeuer be the truer either the former which the Bishop followed or the later which you follow yet caÌ„ you not go so round away with the matter but that euen Michael which yéelded to the Pope mangre all his Priestes and made them perforce while he liued to acknowledge the Pope shewed therein a superioritie â—…uer them which I thinke ye will not call a tiranâ—…y 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gaue it ouer to the Pope And his sonne in doing the contrarie euen in the Councell ye mention sheweth also a supreme dealing therein And that supreme dealing that you most stiffly denie to Princes to wâ—…te the calling of Councels the Patriarch did it not but the Prince 〈◊〉 as your selfe haâ—… confessed before that he after his Fathers death suâ—…moned a Councell of the Grecians And so sayeth Langus in the Margine of the Preface Imperatoriâ—… istius ductu c. By the guydance of this Emperour in the Councell the Easterne Bishops contrarie to the Westerne decreed that the holy Ghost proceeded onely from the Father But not long after by his Nephewe Iohn Paleologus being Emperour in the Synode at Florence holden in the yeere of the Lorde 1439. the Grecians accorded to the determination of the Latines in so much that they professed the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne when they were perswaded that the Latines beleeued God the Father to be the onely cause of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost and that they accursed the being of twoo beginnings or two causes in the consubstantiall Trinitie Which sentâ—…nce as it sheweth the 〈◊〉 to be called by the 〈◊〉 â–ª so it sheweth the cause of the Gréekes diâ—…ision 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 in this 〈◊〉 aboute which here and in your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…e make so much a do to haue bene rather of misunderstanding the one of the other than any such 〈◊〉 â–ª as ye here â—…o often charge them â—…aunder Niâ—…phorus reâ—…ite this Prince and afterwardes 〈◊〉 â—…o vs also And withall it sheweth that this controuâ—…rsie was not so much tho matter betweene them as was the reâ—…enting vnto the Popes obedience which the Greeke Church could neuer abide and to say the sooth they of all other had chiefe cause â–ª for the Pope was the chiefe ruine 〈◊〉 their Empirâ—… But to returne to my purpose In this Councell the Prince hath this point of supremacâ—…e that he sumâ—…oned and guided it â–ª which M â–ª Stapleton espying dareth not fully affirme â–ª that thiâ—… doing maketh â—…atly againste the Princes supremacie but he cometh fâ—…intly in with what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you 〈◊〉 And what if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 shalt we 〈◊〉 haue larkes â–ª what 〈◊〉 â—…id â–ª phie on Deuill with his shifting if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thou be the 〈◊〉 of God. And what if it do not necessarily enduce the chiefe supeâ—… in all causes
And what if it did not necessarily if it did it what is here the necessitie to or fro the matter and what if it did some necessariliâ—… though not all Yet ye see here is somwhat gotten to helpe the matter for warde Ye graunt this doing argueth a supremacie in some Ecclesiaâ—…call causes although not necessarilie But stâ—…pping backe againe ye â–ª say And 〈◊〉 in no 〈◊〉 Eccâ—…siasticall concerning the 〈◊〉 discussing and determinâ—…cion of the same Well and what if this also were graunted you that concerning the finall discussing and determination he had supremacie in no cause ecclesiasticall yet might it followe that in all other poynts except the finall discussing and determination he had the supremacie Verily say you waxing somewhat bolder without any perchance it is most playnly and certaynly true it dothe not And howe proue you this M. Stap. For say you euen in this schâ—…maticall councell and hereticall synagoge the Byshops played the chiefe part â–ª and they gaue the finall thoughé a wrong and wicked iudgement And verily then without any perchaunce either your selfe do make a foule lye or else bothe in calling the Councell and giuing the finall sentence also the Prince had the superioritie For whatsoeuer ye deniâ—… héere not 16 lynes before ye graâ—…nted that he â—…othe summoned the Councell and also that he and they anulled and reuoked that hys father had done at the Councell at Lions Lo heere in the annulling and reuoking which was the finall discussing and determination â–ª ye bothe ioyne hiâ—… with them and place him before them And thuâ—… vnawares whyle ye speake agaynst the truthe ye wotte not what or care not howe ye wrappe your selfe in contradictions and make your selfe a lyer Your seconde parcell is onely agaynst the order of the sentences collected by the Byshop asking him what honor he hath got for al his craâ—…tie cooping or cunning â–ª and smoth â—…oyning combining and incorporating a number of Nicephorus sentences togither For all these wordes you vse to outscoffe the matâ—…er and quarell at the placing of them vnorderly But all this whyle ye answere not one worde to any one worde in them and yet set you downe your marginall note with a solemne outâ—…rie O what a craftie Cooper and smothe Ioyner is master Horne But sée how handsomely it falleth out and how orderly euen where ye talke of order â–ª For where ye 〈◊〉 haue set downe this your marginall exclamation at the comming to his second parte saying what honor haue ye go for all your craftie cooping c. Ye set it downe for haste in the matter before answered concerning the schismaticall Councel and the bishops dealing therin doing as the story telleth of Doctor Shawe in his sermon of the prayse of king Richarde the thirde that or euer the king was come to the sermon had already sayde his parte that he should haue sayde at his comming and so with shame inough out of place and out of time repeated the same But you may say thankes be to God inke and paper can not blushe and although I thinke you can do as little your self yet a Gods name let it passe be it but the Printers misplacing of the note although it fell out ill fauorâ—…dly to light euen there where ye reprehende the Byshop for ill ioyning togither of his senteÌ„ces and your booke ioyneth your marginal notes all besides your matter Now hauing thus stoode trifling in reprehending the order of the bishops collection of Nicephorus sentences bicause he setteth them downe togither béeing not so set togither but here there dispersed in the great long Preface of Nicephorus where the Reader now at the length should looke that M. Stap. should come to answere some poynt materiall of all the bishops allegations as though he had fully answered them all hauing sayde not so much as Buffe vnto any one sentence alleaged he repeateth his former vaunt full lustily saying What honor haue you I say wonne by this or by the whole thing it self little or nothing furthering your cause and yet otherwise playne schismaticall and hereticall For the which your handsome and holy dealing the author of the foresaide Homilie and you yea M. Iewell too are worthy exceeding thanks Is not héere a proper answere thus to iest out the matter with scoffes crakes raylings Surely M. St. what honor soeuer the bishop hath wonne by this or not wonne as he looketh for none at your haÌ„ds your thaÌ„ks ye may reserue for your friends you win much shame to your selfe your cause thus shamefully to â—…umble vp the matter all onely with out facing it Ye say the B. hath patched vp a number of Nicephorus sentences togither Why do ye not â—…ip a sunder those patches ' If he hath vsed craftie cooping cunning smoothe ioyning combining and incorporating it were your part to vnhoope theÌ„ to dissolue theÌ„ to answere them Tush say you what néede that they are al little or nothing furthering your cause Now M. Sta I thinke then they might be the easelier answered not so to skip ouer them like whip Sir Iohn at his morrow Masie But til you answere something to theÌ„ an vpright iudge will déeme them much to further our cause Although it is somewhat that ye grauÌ„t that yet a litle they further our cause â—… I think by that the reader hath wayed theÌ„ better he shal sée they so hinder your cause that ye thought it the best way to let them all alone And that the Reader may the better beholde bothe your dealing and the Byshops allegations so iudge how much or howe little they further the matter and whether they might haue bene thought worthy the answering as the Byshoppe hathe gathered them so will I set them downe Who hath glorified God more and shewed more feruent zeale sayth Nicephorus to the Emperour towardes him in pure religion without fayning than thou hast done Who hath with suche feruent zeale sought after the most sincere fayth muche indaungered or clensed agayne the holy table When thou sawest our true religion brought into perill with newe deuises brought in by counterfeite and naughtie doctrines thou diddest defende it moste paynefully and wisely thou diddest shewe thy selfe to be the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and staye in so horrible wauering and errour in matters beginning to faynte and to perishe as it were with shipwracke Thou arte the guyde of the profession of our fayth Thou haste restored the Catholike and vniuersall Church beeing troubled with new matters or opinions to the olde state Thou hast banished from the Church all vnlawfull and impure doctrine Thou hast clensed agayne with the worde of truthe the Temple from choppers and chaungers of the diuine doctrine and from hereticall deprauers thereof Thou haste bene set on fyre with a godly zeale for the diuine Table Thou haste established the doctrine Thou haste made constitutions for the same Thou haste entrenched the true religion with
doth Nicephorus ouer the Priestes the Bishops and the whole Church acknowledge in this Emperour for their reformation as he saith so nere as â—…e could to the primatiue Church Which notwithstanding as it was not true in this errour so was it not I graunt also in diuerse other corruptions agréeing some of them with the dregges of Poperie Yet for all this he that sayth Nicephorus sayth so neither lieth on him nor therevpon fauouâ—…eth their errours And he that sayth so in this poynt of the princes supreme dealing and deliuering of the Grecians from that Thraldom to the Pope into the which Michaell perforce had brought them shall not onely say true in saying Nicephorus sayth so but also that therein Nicephorus or any other so saying sayth therein most true he reformed religion to the purenesse thereof But nowe that master Stapleton will haue the Bishop clapped on the back for an Heretike against the holy ghost for shewing onely Nicephorus wordes who shall clappe on the backe Lazius Langus and all the doctours of Paris and Louaine for setting out allowing and approuing this authour to be verie Catholike in all poynts not making any exception of Heresie at all If there be any vpright iudgement in your selfe master St. let vs see you roll in your rayling rhetorike and rore agaynst them Go clap them on the backe and say patrisas and ye dare Ye might so be clapped your selfe by the héeles or haue a fagot clapped on your shoulders if ye did to teach you to kéepe your clattering clapper better in your heade Your second part is somwhat better directed to the allegation of the Bishop out of S. Paule with Chrysostomes and Cyrils iudgement therevpon Which you say is needelesse and farre from the matter c. That prosperitie of the common welth and true religion springeth from good regiment or Magistrates which we denie not say you and that the decay of religion destroyeth or deadly weakeneth the other which is also true Iâ—… ye graunt these to be true master Stapleton bowe chaunce in your marginall notes and store of vntruthes ye quarell so sore thereat There ye say there is no such words in Saint Paule and say This would be noted how ye racke S. Paule he nameth not religion at all he doth not attribute religion to the rule and gouernment of the ciuill Magistrate but peace and tranâ—…llitie onely in godlynesse Thus ye chalenge the Bishop there for falsehoode â—…nd racking How truly shall appeare in the aunswere to your bederoll of vntruthes Only now I note yoâ—… vnconstant dealing For here ye denie it not but say it is â—…rue all that the Bishop hath sayd thereon and graunt the â—…e as not preiudiciall to your cause But marke M. Stap. what here ye graunt and confesse to be true That prosperitie of the common welth and true religion springeth from the good regiment of Magistrates If this be so as ye say then the Princes regiment and direction in both these next vnder God is simplie the principall is the fountaine of them both And as the ouersight direction and chiefe authoritie of setting forth the one so the ouersight direction and the chief authoritie of setting forth the other floweth from the Prince if either of those do spring from him For howe can that spring from him whiche ye neyther make to bée deriued by anie meanes from him nor he to haue any direction or gouernement off nor anie taste rellishe care or â—…edling therewith as nothing belonging to him Is this to be a spring or fountaine of it Which syth ye graunte vnto the Prince whether wittingly or vnaduisedly I knowe not nor by what cautele ye â—…de to 〈◊〉 off the matter it is 〈◊〉 simplie to estaâ—… the Bishops 〈◊〉 and to 〈◊〉 your cause and 〈◊〉 your craftes with your owne plaiâ—…e words that here ye say it is true and ye will not denie it the prosperitie of the common weale and true religion springeth from the good regiment of Magistrates Whervpon it foloweth that not only true religion belongeth to their regiment out their regiment being a spring thereof hath a superioritie and iâ—… the heade as it were in direction and setting forth true Religion among their subiects as the spring hath a superioritie and is the heade in casting forth pure water into the brokes or riuers Thus ye sée master Stapleton that the Bishops allegation is so necessarie and nearâ—… to the matter that both it concludeth the question in hande and your selfe in the end are â—…ayne or of force driuen to yelde thereto in this poynt And vpon this dependeth the other poynt which ye graunt also to be true That the decay of Religion destroyeth or deadly weakeneth the other Wherein ye say weâ—…l Master Stapleton if ye graunt it to the purpose wherefore it is alleaged that these two thinges prosperitie and religion are necessarily â—…o be combined in a Prince whose regiment ye haue graâ—…ed to be a spring from whence both of these doe come For so not onely Saint Paule and Chrysostome expounding him Cyrill also meaneth but euen Nicephorus the authour last mentioned in the sayde Prince doth commende that felicitie and the true worship of GOD were so knitâ—…e in him that godlynesse by hir force had drawne felicitie to hiâ—… or rather GOD had ioyned and tempered them togither to the ende that by the helpe of bothe these hee might become both in deede a marueylous helpe and succour and also a steadie stay and firmament as it were to diuine oâ—… Ecclesiasticall matters beginning to fall away And to this purpose are these two so ioyned togither in the Prince that as the Bishop sayeth and you doe not gainesay thâ—… same The wante of the one especially of religion destroyth or deadly weakeneth the other Sith now therfore the B. and you agrée that these pointâ—… are true and howe nere eyther of these doe comprehende the matter in controuersie is apparant wherefore doe you in néedelesse examples and farre from the matter spende the time to prooue that which neither the Bishop nor you â—…enye As the vtter ruine say you of the Empyre of Greece proceeding from the manifolde heresies especially that whereof we haue discoursed doth to well and to plainly testifie And therefore I wold wishe you and maister Foxe with others but you two aboue all others with good aduisement to note that as the wicked Iewes that crucified Christ about the holy time of Easter were at the verye same time or thereabout besieged of the Romaines and shortlye after brought to such desolation and to such miserable wretched state as in a maner is incredible sauing that beside the foreseeing and foresaying therof by Christ there is extant at this day a true faithful report â–ª eueÌ„ so your dearlings the GreciaÌ„s whose error but not alone but accompanied with some other that you at this day stoutly defend yet especially rested in this heresie against the
gouernment in Church causes as the Queenes Maiestie taketh vpon hir of dutie to belong to ciuill magistrates he concludeth ther vpoÌ„ by these two parts of the request so satisfied that they may and ought to take the same vpon them Which done he promiseth to enter into the other twaine to proue the same by the continuall practise of like gouernment in some one part of Christendome and by the generall Councels To this answereth M St. Hitherto ye haue not brought any one thing to the substaÌ„tial proufe of your purpose worth a good straw neither Scripture nor Doctor nor Emperour This is a short aunswere indéede as if Iacke Strawe had made it and not a student of diuinitie All is not worthe a strawe with you Such was the iudgement of Esops dunghill Cocke when he found the precious stone Haue ye done nothing master Stapleton but scraped strawes though you estéeme better of your owne doings wherevpon as it were an other Chaunticlere ye crâ—…we and crake so often yet set not so little by the doings of other men and thâ—…se that are farre your betters But what are the Bishops proues the lesse worth for this your strawish iudgement Your bolt M. St. is soone shotte but a raylers tongue is they say no slaunder Let others iudge that haue more iudgement what the Bishops proues amount vnto And let them iudge euen by this your Counterblast that ye haue blowne out agaynst these proues to ouerturne them Which had they bene as light as a strawe ye might haue easily done and neuer haue puffed vp such a stormie Counterblast But let them iudge what your Counterblast hath done and whether ye haue blown away so much as one straw bredth from the matter one proufe of al the Bishops proufes But least I should also be like to you I remit the iudgement of the whole to other yea in Gods name to any of your owne side that with any indifferencie will examine both Ye quarell further at the least to blemish the Bishop with suspition of heresie saying Among your foure Emperors by you named ye haue iugled in one that was a starke Heretike but as subtilly as yee thought ye had handled the matter ye haue not so crastily conueyde your galles but that you are espied Ye haue told vs of this often inough master Stapleton if that would helpe you though ye tolde it not so Iuglerlike as now although with as much bitternesse of gall as euer y Iugler or sorcerer SimoÌ„ Magus had With Heretike starke Heretike wretched Heretike c. But ye neuer tell how the Bishop cited him For were he Heretike or were he not as it is a question by Saint Augustines definition of an Heretike yet in that point that the Bishop cited him ye can proue him no Heretike But whatsoeuer he were the B. is clearely discharged to your owne shame and to all your doctors of Louaine where ye learne your good diuinitie And this is al that ye haue to say to the Bishops proues hitherto Now to that he promiseth to enter into the residue there is yet one thing that after all your raylings ye coÌ„mend him for Yet for one thing say you are ye here to be commended that now you woulde seeme to frame vs a certaine fixed state of the matter to be debated vpoÌ„ and to the which you would seeme to direct your proufes that ye will bring And therein you deale with vs better than hitherto ye haue done seeming to seke by dark generalities as it were corners to lusk lurk in Neither yet here walk ye so plainly and truly as you would seeme but in great darknesse with a sconce of dimme light that the readers should not haue the clere view sight of the right way ye should walk in whoÌ„ with this your darke sconce ye lead far awry For thus you frame vs the state of the questioÌ„ These are but wordes M. Stap. to spend time and fil paper Ye know best your owne practises Ye tell vs before hand the Bishop will do so Tell vs so when ye come to it It séemeth he mindeth it not euen by your owne confession prefixing a state of the matter to be debated vpoÌ„ to direct his proues vnto This is not the way of one that would luâ—…ke or lurke with darke sconces in corners nor the B hitherto hath gone thus to work it is one of your ordinarie slaunders his proues are euident name one that is not directed to the issue set betwene him M. Feck that fully proueth it not but that sconce of your own hath left no corner vnsought to â—…usk and lurke in and to lead the Reader about the bush as besides this your common place of impertinent matters will for the most part declare The. 27. Diuision THe B. hauing proued his issue by the two forsaid parts the scriptures the Doctors being entred into the other twaine the Councels the practise since the issue requireth the proofe of Any such gouernement as the Q maiestie now taketh vpon hir the B. first expresseth hir Maiesties gouernment theron according to the issue maketh his generall state to leuell his proues vnto the B. words are these The gouernement that the Q. Maiestie most iustly taketh vpon hir in ecclesiasticall causes is the guiding caring prouiding ordering and ayding the ecclesiasticall state within hir dominions to the furtherance maintenance and setting foorth of true religion vnitie and quietnesse of Christes Church ouerseeing visiting refourming restrayning amending and correcting all maner persons with all maner errors superstitions heresies schismes abuses offences contemptes and enormities in or about Christes religion whatsoeuer This same authoritie rule and gouernement was practised in the catholyke Church by the most Christian kings and Emperours approued confirmed commended by the best Councels both generall and Nationall The effect of M. Stapletons aunswere to this is all against the state of the question that the Bishop here setteth downe and is diuided chiefly into thrée pointes In the first he chalengeth the bishop to alter the state of the question in hande and setteth himselfe downe another state to the which he woulde haue the Bishop direct his prooues Secondly he trauayleth to show that the Bishop concealed two clauses of the statute that should chiefly haue expressed the state and what inconuenience may insue thereby Thirdly he alleageth the excuses of the Papists for refusing the othe In his first part being deducted into these two members to quarell at the Bishops state and to set vp his own for the former thus sayth M. Stapleton Here is a state framed of you M. Horne but fane square from the question in hande For the question is not nowe betwene M. Feckenham and you whether the Prince may visit reforme and correct all maner of persons for all maner of heresies and schismes and offences in Christian religion which perchance in some sense might somwhat be borne withall
and correct all maner of persons for al maner of heresies schismes and offences in Christian religion This is inough M. St. for your part to grauÌ„t the Prince thus much Nay soft ye say you I graunt this but with a perchaunce What doth so waightie a matter hang by so rotten a thread Nay I graunt not this perchauÌ„ce neither say you but in some condition This goeth hard with Princes M. St. to stand at this smal reuersion But go to let vs see how many Princes visite reforme and correct all maner persons heresies schismes and offences What is the condition ye wil make Forsooth the condition is this looke what maner lawes and decrees the Priests will make the Prince shall only confirme them by outwarde execution of them Looke what maner persons the priests do say are heretikes â—…chismatikes and offenders the Prince shall execute them with the sworde and kill them Looke what maner religion doctrine and doings the Priests and Bishops shall in their Councels both generall and nationall decrâ—… to be heresie schisme and offence the Prince shal roborate fortifie and streÌ„gthen them And this is the only sense sayth M. St. that I meane that they should visite reforme and correct all maner persons heresies schismes and offences in Christian religion Why M. Stapl. this sense and this graunte are quite contrarie the one to the other The Prince shall visite reforme and correct all maner of persons heresies schismes and offences that is to say he shall not visite reforme nor correct any maner of person for any maner of all these things but the Priest shall do it and he shall onely be the Priestes slaue and executioner Well sayth M. Stap. be it as be may construe it as ye will this is the onely some sense that we may graunt it in and in none other sense And this in Christian Princes is not denied but commended Is not héere a proper graunt to Princes and is not master Stap. to be commended for this some sense of christian Princes gouernment But who is so senselesse that he seeth not in this sense that the Prince hath no gouernement at all but is made a very slaue to the Popish priests authoritie And in this some sense coulde master Stapl. finde in his heart to acknowledge a gouernement to the Queenes maiestie and yet not without a perchaunce neither But without perchaunce master Stap. your sense sheweth what good harte ye beare hir Maiestie and all other christian Princes Now that M. Stap. hath thus chalenged the state which the bishop framed and yet graunteth with a perchaunce thereto in some sense which sense is as you haue heard he taketh vpon him to set downe the true state of the question in hande and prefixeth these words in his margine The state of the question and so procéedeth saying But the question is here nowe whether the Prince or lay magistrate may of him selfe and of his own princely authoritie without any higher eccl. power in the Church within or without the Realme visite reforme and correct and haue all maner of gouernment and authoritie in all things causes eccl. or no. As whether the Prince may by his own supreme authoritie depose and set vp Bishops and priests make iniunctions of doctrine prescribe order of Gods seruice enact matters of religioÌ„ approue and disproue articles of the faith take order for administration of Sacraments commaund or put to silence Preachers determine doctrine excoÌ„municate and absolue with such like which al are causes eccl. and al apperteyning not to the inferiour ministerie which you grauÌ„t to Priests and Bishops only but to the supreme iurisdiction and gouernment which you do annexe to the Prince only This I say is the state of the question now present For the present question betweene you and M. Feck is grounded vpon the othe comprised in the statute which statute emplieth and concludeth all these particulars I had thought séeing your earnestnesse M. St. when ye came to meÌ„tioning the statute that we should haue herd all these things that ye haue thus as it were on your fingers endes particularly named expressed in the statute But wheÌ„ al coÌ„meth to al ye knit vp the matter with this which statute implyeth concludeth al these particulars But I sée you employ your selfe like your self stil to false coÌ„clusions And such as your coÌ„clusions are such are your proues You pretende here after ye haue controlled the B. to set down the true state of the questioÌ„ But as ye played in the beginning so ye holde out rubbers euen to the ending Ye are stil the same man that cried out of short wide shoting hauing set vp new markes of your owne making by this doing both to defeate the bishops profes also to deceiue the reader Ye would fayne driue all to the othe and make the othe the present question And why so bicause say you the present question is grounded on the othe True in déede bothe the present question and all other questions about this controuersie and the issue also agréed vpon betwéene these parties is grounded as ye say vpon the oth And bicause the present question is grounded theron it is a good argument against you that the oth is not theÌ„ the present questioÌ„ bicause the present questioÌ„ is grouÌ„ded theron a question is not grounded on it selfe Ye shoulde haue marked that though the originall be of the othe yet both the issue the present questioÌ„ in haÌ„d being by degrées deducted from thence make nowe an other state To the which to this issue if the bishop satisfie ye can not iustly chaleÌ„ge him any further As for that state of the question that you set downe and the particulars thereof that ye say are implyed and concluded in the statute that all those things are apperteining not to the inferiour but to the supreme iurisdiction and gouernment that ye say we annexe to the Prince only al these are your most manifest vntruthes slanders nor ye can finde them either specified emplyed concluded comprised or any wayes to be ment in the othe or in the statute or in any parte therof Neither the othe or the statute giue al maner of gouernment and authoritie in all things and causes ecclesiasticall to the Prince but ascribe to the Prince the supreme gouernment and authoritie in al things and causes ecclesiasticall True it is that supreme gouernement is aboue ouer them but yet the one is not the other supreme gouernment is not all maner of gouernment Neither bothe the othe or the statute either in wordes or effect of wordes ascribe to this the Princes supreme gouernment the making of Priests and Bishops the making iniunctions of doctrine the determining of doctrin the approuing or disprouing articles of the faith excommunicating and absoluing the preaching of the worde and the administration of Sacramentes Where fynde ye any of these things so muche as to be gathered out
nor there in his humaine nature as Christe himselfe hath testified Which as it dasheth this your case yée put so it confuteth an other chiefe errour of yours that affirme yée haue the humaine nature of Christe closed vp in a boxe and that yée eate him vp or kéepe him vp till he waxe mouldie and then you burne him vp Is this the best honor you can affoorde to Christe being conuersant heere in earth in his humaine nature If it be true that you say he is present how chance yée serue him thus is it bycause he appeareth not in his likenesse but looketh rather like a wafer if it were Christe indéede howsoeuer he loked can you finde in your hearts thus to order him But you will saye that is an other matter answere to this presupposal We speake nowe of Christ appearing in his owne likenesse How say you if he were conuersant in earth as he was shoulde hee not ouer Christian Kings haue superioritie in temporall causes so vvell as in ecclesiasticall that might promote his Churche I answere if this were admitted to be true that Christ againe were conuersant on the earth Christian Kings ought no doubt to giue him all superioritie and be vnder him in all ecclesiasticall and temporall causes that might promote his Churche acknowledging all the power they haue to procéede from him But that Christ if he were againe on the earth woulde raigne ouer Kings and in his humaine nature rule Kings in their secular causes or that he woulde thinke this a way to promote the Church or that he would depose Princes and make their subiectes reuolt from their obedience or that he woulde cease their kingdomes into his handes and make Kings to kisse his féete to leade his Horsse to holde his sturrops or that he would weare thrée Crownes and Princely roabes of gold frette with perle and stone or that he would kepe suche a princely porte and pompe as passed all other Princes which things your Pope pretending to be his Uicar in the absence of his humaine nature doth this would be harde for you to proue M. Saunders although your case were graunted that Christ personally in his humaine nature vvere conuersant in earth againe For if he would haue had any of these thinges he might haue had them when he was here on earth as your selfe confessed in the Chapter going before saying This in this kinde I vvill speake as the chiefest argument that Christe vvhile he vvas here in earth and fulfilled all the lavve and all righteousnesse notwithstanding he would gouern eccl. matters only as a Priest and by no means as an earthly king For he openly refused to administer an earthly kingdome therfore fled when he saw the people go about to do this thing that they might make him a king he denied that he was appointed a deuider betwene the brethreÌ„ Are not these your own wordes M. Sand I knowe you wrest them to an other purpose whiche there is answered vnto But howe serue they not here against your selfe â–ª trow you Christe is now become of an other mynde than he was when he was here on earth if he be still of the same mind then would he not take vpon him if he were here againe on earth the estate of an earthly King nor gouerne in secular causes But trowe you your Pope pretending to be his Uicar would suffer this seese the temporalties he possesseth the kingdomes he hath gotten the honor that is giuen him or any thing else that in eccl. secular causes vnder pretence of the Churches promotion he vsurpeth ouer all kings Christian no he would rather handle Christ worsse if he could lay hands vpon him then euer did the Iewes he wold not onely crucifie Christe againe but burne him cleane to ashes for an hereâ—…ike rather then he would lose this honor or any iote thereof But and if Christe were here againe conuersant on earth in his humaine nature woulde he suffer the Popes intollerable pride and errours would he allowe him to abuse his name as thoughe he were his deputie and Uicar generall I trow not Not that I thinke he séeth it not or suffers it not or hath not by his prouident iustice ordeined that Sathan should set vp such an Antichrist to delude strongly the Children of vnbeleefe and to exercise vnder the Crosse of Christ his litle elected flocke But that if Christe should so come as he here supposeth surely I woulde thinke the cause of his coÌ„ming to be euen to destroy spiritu oris eius with the breath of his mouth this man of sin not to mainteine him in his pompe muche lesse himselfe to take the like vpon him Not that Christe is not a king ouer the house of Iacob not that his kingdome is not eternal as the Angel said to Marie not that he should not subdue al earthly kingdoms to his spiritual kingdome but that his kingdome is spiritual not earthly the subduing of earthly kingdomes is with a sword that conquereth the soule of man that is the word of God with a force from aboue subduing the will of man that is the spirite grace of God and not such a subduing of their kingdomes that it dissolueth their polycies estates or deposeth their kings maketh the people take Armes and exerciseth â–ª in secular causes an earthly Kings authoritie M. Saunders pretendeth this is to promote the Churche of Christ but suche promotion confoundes deuotion and hath poysoned the Church of God as they say a voyce was heard what time Constantine although falsly is supposed to haue endowed the Church with such royall honor Hodie venenum intrauit in ecclesâ—…n This day entered poyson into the Church But Christ hath flatly forbidden it and tolde his Disciples when they asked such promotion that they knewe not what they asked But afterwarde they knewe and founde the saying of Christ to be true that their promotion lay in their affliction and not in their kingly honor And thus we sée the falsehood of the maior forged vpon this fained presupposall whiche is not to be graunted and yet if it were graunted it would fall out to the vtter ruine of the Pope all his Prelates Such ill lucke hath M. Sand stil to light on such examples as he coÌ„ceineth to make for him but being a litle better examined make most of al against him Now to the minor that Christ hath giuen to his Ministers in the visible ministerie all the povver necessarie to saluation that he should haue himselfe in his humaine nature Where find you this M. Sand I thinke it will be ouer hard a matter for you to proue that all the povver necessarie to saluatioÌ„ that he shoulde haue himselfe in his humaine nature in the visible ministerie he hath giueÌ„ it al to his ministers Al power saith Christe is giuen to me in heauen and in earth this is spoken in respecte
But sith none hath aduentured on it I thought it my dutie to yeelde to the godlie and vrgent requestes of those personages that vnderstanding I had priuately delte therin required the publishing of my labours to the vvhich I condescended a great deale the vvillinger partly bicause it touched vvithall the defence of that Reuerende fathers innocencie and learning the Bishop of VVinchester vvho had although briefly yet most orderly and exactly handled this questioÌ„ before and vvas oppugned by this aduersarie neither vvas it for diuers causes thought so coÌ„uenient for the Bishop himselfe to ansvvere and I for my part was bounde in so iust a cause to defend him But chiefly for that it spared not most opprobriously to slaunder your most excelleÌ„t Maiestie your title your state your gouernment your most honorable and godlie CouÌ„saile your nobilitie your Bishops your clergie your magistrats your iustices your people and all estates of your dominions your doctrine your faith your religion yea the truth and glorie of God vvhich your Highnesse defendes to all vvhich I and all other are bounde in principall I thought not good therefore to stay it any longer and suffer these vncircumcised Philistines blaspheming the truth of God reproching the Lords anoynted and rayling on the hoste of Israel to stand thus and vaunt vnansvvered but lette this ansvvere that I had thus farforth made in priuate â–ª come abrode to others Promising god vvilling by your Maiesties fauourable protection to deale further vvith them and to shevvethe continuall practise hereof hovve in all ages since Christendome began to flourishe vnder the Great Constantine that christian Emperors Kings and Princes haue dealte as doth your Maiestie in the ouersight of Ecclesiastical matters till the Pope by little and little encroching on them not onely spoyled them of this their chief authoritie but of their temporal estates and vvorldly kingdoms yea of their goodes liues also In the meane season for this that is here alreadie ansvvered vnto I most humbly craue your Highnesse acceptation vvhose right is here defended by truth from sclanders that by iustice defendeth our right from iniuries Most hartily beseeching almightie God as he hitherto hath vouchsafed so to blesse preserue continue and prosper your Royal Maiestie to the loÌ„g establishing of your Highnes Throne to the vtter vanquishing of all your spirituall and bodily priuie and open enimies to the godlie comforte and quiet gouernment of all your faithful subiects and to the prosperous aduancement of Gods euerlasting glorie thorough Iesus Christe AMEN Youre Maiesties humble and obedient subiect IOHN BRIDGES The Preface to the Reader IT is nowe a good while since deare Christian Reader that this maister Stapletons Counterblast was blowne ouer the seas from Louaine against the Reuerende father in Christe the Bishop of Winchester or rather against the Quenes Maiestie and hir Supremacie was thus farre answered vnto as here is nowe set foorth Which may easily be perceiued by the reading for there is little or nothing altered except a sentence or two here there added as things haue falne out since I speake this that thou shouldest not here loke for any great or exquisite penning thinking that after so loÌ„g a leysure some more notable and exacter answere should come forth Our aduersaries vaunt much of their wittes herein and chieâ—…y this my matefellow master Stapleton to be verie fresh pregnant in readinesse of answering for he is his mothers sonne and hath it on his fingers ends Howbeit I may say to these as Apelles sayd to one who when he had drawne a picture Lo quoth he I did this apace Some thinkes quoth Apelles it is so ruÌ„ningly done And thus it falleth often out with our Loâ—…anists writings but Sat cito si sat bene It is soone ynough if it be well inough say I when all is done The reasâ—… why this answere came forth no soner are these First I kept it priuate to my self abyding if either the Bishop against whome it was made or any other woulde aunswere to it Secondly I heard at the length that Maister Nowell the Deane of Poules trauayled in it whose learning and wisedome being suche as all the aduersaries could neuer withstand I surceased to proceede any further Thirdly when I perceiued he set not out his answere neither I thought it best to lay myne asyde also Thinking that either he was stayed vpoÌ„ som weightier consideration than I did know or else that he did thinke the boke not worth the answering at al as in very deed to the lerned marker it is not M. Nowel had answered Dorman in muche like matter before which were the occasioÌ„s why it slept so loÌ„g But since that time as many haue mused and talked much on the matter so they haue not a little marueiled why nothing was said vnto it The argument was great and waightie not so muche whether nowe the Supremacie belonged to the Pope as whether it pertained to the ciuil Magistrate and whether the Queenes Maiestie did claime and hold it by right or no The parties in controuersie were of note as wel master Feckenham among the Papistes as the Bishop of Winchester whose estimation among vs is not more for his authoritie than his name amoÌ„g other nations for his learning Nowe when Master Stapleton stept in lyke a lustie yoncker and blewe vp this Counterblast betwene these twain so hotly hallowing for answer out of hande to be made by the Bishop therto al this while had none some did interprete it that he was a very vnfit matche for so graue a Bishop as to say the truth the match was nothing euen And therefore I wite not the Bishop if he vouchsafed not to answer him especially seing home his booke was so pestred with scoldes and scorners Rhetorike Neither will the horse of noble corage strike at euery brauling curre that barks at his heeles But when others missecoÌ„strued this to the worst said the Counterblast was so notably blown that the Bishop durst not nor was able he nor any other to answer it wheÌ„ vpon the head of all this M. Saunders Latine volume coÌ„mes forth although chiefly on the Popes visible Monarchie yet once again entring into this questioÌ„ of the Princes Supremacie with fresh matter as he bosteth with such inuincible arguments against it that all are but vnlearned starke fooles and cleane madde that do defend it and not thus content so depresseth the Princes estate that he will now proue the Pope hath interest to depose al Christian Princes and release their sâ—…biects of their sworn obedience which valiant champion vauÌ„teth also of his felow Stapletons noble peece of woorke againste the Princes Supreme Gouernment saying in his prayse Quod argumentum â–ª Thomas Stapletonus omnium copiosissimè tractaâ—…it in â—…o Libro quenâ—… 〈◊〉 eloquentia doctrina refertum contra Hornum Psâ—…udoepiscopum Wintoniensâ—… edidiâ—… vvhiche argument Thomas Stapleton hathe moste copiously handeled in that booke vvhiche beeing replenished
vvith all eloquence and learning he set foorth against Horne the false Bishop of VVinchester So stornfully this rayling Papiste speaketh of the Bishop and so he braggeth of his fellowes lerning and eloquence All whiche considered I thought it necessarie and more than high tyme to answer these proude Phariseis least the goodnesse of the cause should become distrusted the truth suspected the Prince slaundered the Bishop defaced the enimie encouraged the godlie offended the simple abused and the whole estate euill spoken of by too muche vnfrutefull silence and ouerlong suffrance of such false and glorious pratlers And although for these causes I was the willinger to sette it foorth yet was I the more emboldned on the request of diuerse that hearing I had trauailed in it by their godlie persuasions vrged me the more thereto The chiefe of the Argument consisteth on the Supreme gouernement of Christian Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall The occasion sprang of a controuersie betweene the Bishop of Winchester and master FeckenhaÌ„ about the Oth of the Supremacie All which is extant abroade in a learned and pithie booke of the Bishops answering to maister Feckenhams scruples The issue they draue the matter vnto was this that maister Feckenham must be resolued for the Princes Supreme Gouernement in Ecclesiasticall causes by any of these foure meanes the Scripture the Doctours the Councels or the Practise The Bishop accepteth the offer and maketh proofe of the Princes Supreme gouernment in Ecclesiasticall causes not onely by any one but by euery one of all these forsayd poyntes as the Bishops booke is euident to testifie Maister Feckenham that had made his promise to take the Oth vponany of these proues and seing them all beyond his cunning and expectation proued but neither mynding to keepe touche nor able to answere suborneth a chapman from beyond the seas to wit this Louanist maister Stapleton if he may be called Maister for order of schole degree that is suche a renegate from God and runnagate from his Prince who to saue maister Feckenhams honestie if he woulde aduenture to relieue his cause master Feckenham should to saue his credite vouchesafe to relieue his neede Master Stapleton hauing better furniture of sale eloquence than store of grounded learning and yet more learning than grace well to imploy it in acknowledging the manyfest truth taketh vpon him to aunswere the Bishop and deuides all the matter into foure Bookes whereof this is the fyrst that here is answered This doone he conceiueth suche apride of this his exquisite piece of worke that we must needes haue some fyne new name for this fyne newe booke singular heads ye know must haue singular inuentions and bicause the Bishops name is M. Horne he entitleth his worke forsooth a Counterblast And yet somwhat truer than he himselfe wist beeing in deed a blast scarce worth a Counter if the reader well examine it And that ye maye the better perceiue this volume deserues so rare a name for these two rare gifts eloquence and learning for which maister Sanders so highly extolleth him Mulus mulum scabit And sith these two champions beare now the bell for eloquence among the Papists the one for English the other for Latine I haue sorted maister Stapletons eloquence by it self consisting on certain CoÌ„mon places folowing that we may the easier iudge of the substance of his learning whiche otherwise we should not so well discerne it is so poudred with his eloquence His eloquence I confesse I haue sayde but little vnto nor can say muche nor would say ought vnto it as one that neuer was trained vp in the scholes and arte therof As for maister Stapleton goeth beyond maister Saunders and withoute all comparison is an A perse Doctor in it and therfore I set it asyde the better to viewe the learning to the whiche I had more especiall regarde for when all is done the Eloquence settes it out but the Learning proues the matter And though it be not replyed vpon with suche learning as many other better coulde that rather shoulde haue doone it yet haue I endeuored truly simply and playnely to answere it and I hope to the coÌ„tentation of the modest Reader that rather respecteth the boulâ—…ing out of the truthe the staye of his conscience and the glorie of God than either the estimation of learning or the shewe of eloquence Nowe although the Supremacie be the principall matter yet the importunitie of maister Stapleton hath once or twice caried me perforce away with him to purge our selues of certain auncient Herekes that he layeth to our charge and crieth so faste vpon vs for answere and sayeth we styll slinke from it as though we hearde it not and therefore I haue here at large made aunswere to it which makes the volume aryse the bigger In somuche that I thought for all maister Stapletons exclamations to haue lefte it out or put it in one of his Common places But that Maister Saunders commeth rufflyng in wyth the like argument and therefore I lette it stande as it did And I truste I haue cleerely disburdened vs and iustly burdened them therewyth tyll they shall be hable to discharge themselues therof I desyre good Reader but euen indifferencie in thy iudgement Last of all since Master Sanders hath compiled his great volume of the Popes Uisible Monarchie in the secoÌ„d book wherof he entreth into this argumeÌ„t of the Princes Supremacie I haue chosen out of the second booke 4. chapters of the state of the Ciuil and Ecclesiastical power in the Original in the Use and End of both of the Interest and superioritie of either state chiefly of that he would not only defeate the Prince of all gouernment in matters Ecclesiasticall but also clean dispossesse hir Maiestie of hir Crowne For maister Saunders to mayntein the trecherous fact of Pâ—…us the fift the last Pope if Cardinal Bon Compagnion Pope Good fellowe as the talke wente be not deade woulde proue that Bishops may depose their Princes and assoyle their subiectes from their allegeance Whiche poyntes as they draw nerest to the present argument and in deed are for learning suche learning as it is the principall pointes of all his volume I thought good to ioyâ—… them vnto Stapleton and so in one answer answere both though both be answered seuerally as they drawe neere or farre in resemblance or varietie of Argument example or similitude aboute this matter Wherein what is doone I committe vnto thee good Christian Reader to iudge as God shall moue thy heart and besecche thou him to moue it to the best That the truth may appeare that the falshode may be detected that thou mayst be edified that the Prince may be obeyed that the Gospel maye be prospered and that God aboue al things may be glorified nowe and for euer Amen Master Stapletons common places THat all master Stapletons whole volume as well therein himselfe termeth it a Counterblast is indéede but a verie blast blowne out to encounter the
eyes to see eares to heare and handes to feele we can not choose but beholde it in the face 434. a. Ye had neede looke well to your selfe remember nowe among other things master Horne c. Take heede master Horne Thinke vpon this at your good laysure remember also howe ye stande c. VVherein I pray you resteth a great part of your newe clergie B. But in Butchers C. Cookes Catchpoles and Coblers D. Diers Daubers F. Fellons Fishermen G. Gunners H. Harpers I. Inkeepers M. Merchants and Mariners N. Netmakers P. Potters Poticaries and Porters of Belingsgate R. Ruffling Ruffians S. Sadlers Sheremen and Shepeheardes T. Tanners Tylers Tinkers Trumpetters VV. VVeauers VVherrymen 481. a. b. This and such other is his Rhetorik eyther flourishing with 〈◊〉 wordes running on a letter and nowe and then sifting the whole crosse rowe for them Or else doubling and trâ—…bling of 〈◊〉 phrases or multiplying of wordes with which euery sentence is in a maner farced For 〈◊〉 is not commonly content to expresse his minde with one worde be it 〈◊〉 so plaine except he vnderproppâ—… it with an other at the least as thus miserable and wretched peruerting and deprauing The full illustration and opening of whole and entyre matter Euidently and openly disciphered and disclosed espied and vnbuckled bewrayed and detected opened illustred and confirmed Which as it is most vaine babling so is it altogither vnworthy the noting except briefly to shew the reader what kinde of vanitie he hath puft vp this his Counterblast withall His sixt common place of impertinent discourses His ovvne obiection of the same LIke a wanton Spaniell hee runneth from his game at riot 243. Master Horne sayth he seeketh out bye matters leauing the principall as the Donatistes did 321. a. That thou mayest the better sée howe he obserueth this and kéepeth himselfe to his matter or no first beholde the issue and state of the question betwéene the Bishop and M. Fëckhenham which is this VVhether any Prince haue taken on them any such supreme gouernment as dothe the Q. Maiestie in ecclesiasticall causes Which issue to be resolued in Master Feckenham desireth the proufe by any of these foure wayes eyther by the Scriptures or by the Doctors or by the Councels or by the continuall practise in any one part of Christendome To the which issue by all these foure said wayes the Bishop directeth all his prooues and in this first booke he prooueth it by two of them the Scriptures and the Doctors Now whether Master Stapleton kéepe himself to this issue or to the proufes thereof or to the Bishops answere without playing the wanton Spaniell and the part of the Donâ—… iudge when thou hast read this his sixt common place And withall thou shalt sée what good plentie of bye matters he had in store when substantiall matter â—…ayled him In his first Preface taking on him to gather abriefe summe of such things as he thought specially he might deface the Bishop withall throughout all his Preface he neuer setteth 〈◊〉 the issue in controuersie but quarelleth about other things with the Bishops rashnesse follie Grammer Logike Rhetorike Arithmetike And where at the length he speaketh of king Henrie 1. his dealings in punishing Priestes whoredome to shewe â—…ow of purpose he séeketh out his quarelles he slinketh from the Princes dealing wherewith he is vrged and sayth this is not the thing we now seeke for but to know what kinde of whoredome it was that the Priestes shoulde be punished for Pag. 12. And Pag. 18. letting go the matter that he is in hande withall he discourseth agaynst the Bishop of Sarum about Sabellicus titles In the 2. Preface where he bindeth himselfe 〈◊〉 than in the. 1. to declare the whole pith of the question and course of the Bishops and his owne â—…ke he digresseth into a common quarell about diuersitie of fects and heresies which he ascribeth to the Protestants he câ—…eth into Greece Affrica Bohemia Hungarie Lifelande pag. 30 and so commeth home to Englande digressing from the question and issue to English bookes to forbidding of the Bible to be read to the iudgemeÌ„t of Lambert to burning to religious houses Pag. 31. to vowes to repealing lawes to setting forth a newe religion to mariage of Priestes to consecrating â–ª Bishops to the reall presence Pag. 32. Then runneth he to search out discorde in the Protestants and quarelling about wordes in the act and iniunction he maketh an exhortation to returne to the Romaine Church 33. 34. 35. In the aunswere to the Bishops Preface the first whole diuision fo 1. 2. a. b. A loâ—…g impertinent discourse to molliâ—…e master Feckenhams pretence for setting out his booke A number of bie matters falsely charging the Bishop with diuerse impertinent slaunders 2. b. 3. a. Pretending to direct the reader to the question here in trouersie for the nonce he setteth vp a number of newe markes that master Feckenham and the Bishop medleth not withall 3. b. Fol. 4. a. He quarelleth at the Bishop of Sarum for the 600. yeares and the Bishop of Winchester for alleaging testimonies of later yeares calling this vneuen dealing of the Protestants He quarelleth about precise wordes He maketh a new chalenge to the Bishop he chargeth the Bishop of a late bragge none of all these things belonging any whit to the matter 4. b. 5. a. In his first booke A long outrode whether the Bishop were well called by M. Feck the Lorde Bishop of VVinchester or no. 7. a. b. Whether he be Bishop or prelate of the Garter 7. b. succession of Bishops 8. a â–ª against the mariage of Bishops of flesh on Frydayes of a Pigge turned into a Pike That the Protestants be Heretikes euen by the Apologie of England 8. b. An inuectiue against the actes of Parliament of altering religion agaynst the will of the whole clergie that the Bishop can not defende himselfe to bee a Bishop by any lawe of the Realme About the reall presence transubstantiation and adoration 9. a. Deniall of free will the necessitie of baptising children vnlawfull mariage 9. b. A long inuectiue agaynst the disputation at VVestminster Anno. reginae 1. with a number of friuolous excuses whie they shranke from it 12. a. b. 13. a. A long digression almost of 13. leaues togither nothing to the question but discoursing into all countreys Boheme Germanie Denmarke Swethland Brabant Hollande Flaunders Lukelande Englande Fraunce Scotlande Saxonie Hessia VVestphalia besides many townes and Cities chiefly about the businesse in the lowe Countreys to deface the Gospell by the tumults there raysed as the worlde well séeth onely by the practises of the Papists Fol. 33. b. Hauing mentioned the plague he falleth into wicked ghessing that the procedings in that Parliament were the cause of the plague that reigned at London and once againe a â—…ing at the Bishops that they be no Church nor yet Parliament Bishops A long impertinent bibble babble about master Feckenhams ioly disputations begon at London and ended at
the spirituall Kingdome fol. 29. b. 30. a. The seruice of the Prince is common as wel to the heathen as Christian gouernment 29. b. Christian Princes are faythfull aduocates in ayding and assisting the spirituall power 30. a. which the heathen are not fol. 30. b. He flatly confesseth that M. Feck helped to spoyle Queene Marie of a principall part of hir royall power right and dignitie in spoyling hir of this supremacie thought sayth he he so did but not as an vnfaythfull subiect But so to spoyle hiâ—… â–ª and not therein to be an vnfaythfull subiect are flatte contradictorie Againe he sayth he did it as a repentant Catholike but to spoyle any bodie of their right and to do it repentantly are also flat contradictorie ibid. Againe he sayth afterward it was no part at all of hiâ—… royall power but to confesse first that he spoyled hir of a principall part of hir royall power and after to say it was no part of hir royall power are likewise contradictorie As also to say he spoyled hir and yet it was no part belonging to that of which he spoyled 〈◊〉 What are all these but an heape of wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contradictions And all this he vttereth within lesse than fortie wordes togither Fol. 40. b TheÌ„ Bishop 〈◊〉 that the Prince shall haue by him the lawe of God 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…ly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that the 〈◊〉 sâ—…yth not so â–ª 〈◊〉 yet within fire lynes before he confesseth that â—…he 〈◊〉 â—…yeth so and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of infidelitie for leauing out woordes that wente immediately before the Texte that the Bishop alleaged And so while hee stryueth to chalenge the Bishop he cleareth the Bishop and ouerth 〈◊〉 himselfe Againe in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 On the one side of the leafe he graunteth freely that by the. 13. of Deuterenomie Princes may punishe teachers of false and superstitious religion and Idolatrie On 〈◊〉 â—…ther 〈◊〉 of the leafe he eateth his free graunt 〈◊〉 and sayth that in all 〈◊〉 chapter or in all that booke â–ª there is no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…ounde cares not what Where the Bishop allengeth the 〈◊〉 of â—…osue M. St. 〈◊〉 the ensample bicause sayth he Iosue did sacrifice 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 himselfe 46. b. that Princes cannot now do And yet after fol. 49. speaking of Iosue he confesseth that he did them not him selfe but by appoynting them to bee done by the priestes ministerie He chalengeth the Bishop for not prouing his matters by any testimonies of the newe Testament after he hath handled the olde And by and by he confesseth that he alleageth two testimonies of the newe Testament to proue his matters by 59. a. He confesseth that master Feckenham refused of settâ—… purpose like â—… wise man the testimonies of the olde Testament And yet all his long treatise of eight leanes togither in the â–ª â—…6 Chapter is chiefly to this purpose to proue that he refuseth them not 62. a. He confesseth that he omitted them bicause they made agaynst him and yet he sayth he includeth them and affirmeth them as all making with him ibid. Fol. 65. a. b. He graunteth by Saint Augustines wordes that Princes may make lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes Religion And in the next side he denieth Saint Augustines wordes to enforce any thing else but lawes to punishe Heretikes which is no Ecclesiasticall matter at all Fol. 66. a. He sayth we denie that Princes may punish Heretikes by death And 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â–ª he sayth we hold with Caluin that sayth Princes may â–ª pot â–ª Heretikes vnto death When the Bishop presseth him with the ensamples of Moses 〈◊〉 Dauid 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 denieth as doth master Dorman that the ensamples of the old are figures of the new Testament and yet in the â–ª 17. Chapter he graunteth that all the examples 〈◊〉 â–ª 〈◊〉 that the 〈◊〉 of the olde Testament herein be figures of the newe fol. 68. â—… He confesseth there is some regiment that Princes may take vpon them in causes ecclesiasticall And in the next side he 〈◊〉 the Princes regiment to â—…e but an ouer â—…r in ciuill matters But forthwith againe contrarie to this he graunteth the Prince may haue the procurations and executions of Church matters fol. 68. â—… And thus in Docke out Nettie he so graunteth and denieth that there is no holde of his worde 68. a. b. He graunteth Christ destroyed not the rule of Princes in Church causes figured in the olde lawe and that Christs sentence giue to Caesar that that is Caesars confirmeth the figure of Princes rule in Church causes in the olde lawe And yet streightway he sayth it maketh nothing for it 69. a. He sayth this sentence giue vnto Cesar that belongeth vnto Cesar destroyeth not the figure where the subiects in the olde lawe were bounde to giue all duties to their Princes that belonged vnto them And yet anon after by this sentence sayth he men be not bounde to pay any thing yea not so much as tribute to their Princes 70. a. And so this sentence confirmeth not but loâ—…eth and destroyeth the figure by the which subiects were bounde before to their Princes He sayth that this sentence of Christ determineth something And by and by he sayth it determineth nothing Againe he sayth it determineth paying tribute onely And yet he sayd before it determined not that neither He sayde also before that this sentence onely licensed that we might pay tribute if we woulde but we ought not And yet after he sayth Christ willed that to be giuen to Caesar that is his which is â—…oth a determination and commaundement also 70. a. He sayth the Bishops admonition hereon is without anie cause or grounde And anon he sayth it serueth him and his brethren for many and necessarie purposes fol. 70. a. He graunteth that Princes haue authoritie both to further the obseruation and to punishe the breach aswell in the first table as in the seconde that is aswell in such actions as concerne our dutie to God him selfe as in the dutie of one man to another 71. b. But in the next side he flatly denieth this againe saying these are the workes of the first table the punishing correcting or iudging of these appertaine nothing to the authoritie of the Prince or to anye hys lawes 72. a. He sayth we make the Princes supreme gouernours without any limitation And yet withall he alleageth Master Nowell to say it is not without limitation but that Godly ministers may iudge of the synceritie of doctrine according to Gods worde fol. 73. a. As also he shewed in the diuision before howe the Bishop limitted the Princes gouernment by the boundes of the worde of God. He sayeth that Saint Paule 1. Tim. 2. speaketh there of no authoritie at all in Princes Where the wordes are euident for all those that bee put in authoritie And yet himselfe by and by sayth hee speaketh of theyr gouernment And anon after will ye knowe sayth he whie the Apostles both Saint
c. VVe say ye be they that haue contemned Christs sacramentes we saye further that not onely the generall Councell of Trent but that the whole Church hath condemned your opinions These woordes of course are answered in their places fol. 56 a He telleth vs we would mayster and rule oure Princes bicause we limit their rule to Gods worde and that wée referre the interpretation of Gods woorde to oure selues that wee make therof a welshe mans hose Whiche woordes of course are answered in their places and are so manifest the dooings of the Papists and so farre from touching vs that it is maruell with what face he could reherse suche things But such is the propretie of impudencie to obiect that to other wherein he is most culpable him selfe fol. 70. VVe plainly say this kind of supremacie is directly against Gods worde so he sayd before and so let him say sâ—…il so long as he doth but say so and can neuer proue it These and suche like his sayings good reader as thou séest them but mere words of course so thou shalt fynd them swarme thorow â—…ut all his booke and if any of them be not answered for thou séest I cut them off for breuitie sake answere then them as thou thinkest good easy answer God wote may serue them and his owne wordes serue for all returned on him selfe 〈◊〉 nomine de 〈◊〉 fubula narratur change but the name and the tale is tolde of thee Fol. 31. b. In the meane season for these and all his other wordes of course I will say to him againe as he sayth to the Bishop Neither vvill I thanke you for bringing to our hands so good stuff to proue our principal purpose by but say herein to you as S. Aug. sayd in the lyke case to the Donatists alleaging the workes of Optatus by whiche they were euen confounded and the catholikes cause maruellously furthered Neâ—…mmen ipsis â–ª c. Neyther doo wee yet thanke them for their so doing but rather God for that they shoulde bring foorth and vtter eyther by talke or by alleaging all those thinges for our matter the truth forced them not any charitie inuited them And so truly M. Stapleton that you haue alleaged all this and other lyke wordes of course when they are 〈◊〉 compensed to you you are euen so confounded by them that it had ben better for your cause ye had not so muche vsed them but that ye brought suche good stuffe to our handes the truth of our cause forceth you not any good will to our cause or to vs moued you Maister Stapletons ovvne vvords returned to him selfe for all these his Common places MOderate your penne better reporte your authors more syncerely translate your allegations more truely laye downe the whole sentence without concealing of such matter as ouerthroweth your purpose say no more than ye fynd in stories slander not your betters deale more aduisedly and vprightly séek not out so often bymatters starting holes quarell not somuch about trifles of letters syllables escapes in printing raile not so bitterly scoffe not so LuciaÌ„like boast vaunt not with such defacings of persons and outfacings of the matter leaue your vain rhetorik of Copia verboruÌ„ and rolling on a letter vse not as ye cal them so many words of course let your tale hang better together without so many contradictions so shall your vntruthes be fewer an other tyme but so wil your cause I assure you M. Sta come starke naked feble and miserable And al your great volume as bare â—…ield as Esops pulde crow as partly may appere by this pretie farâ—…el of some such yeur sentences and ordinarie phrases in a part of the foresayd poyntes and may further be considered what a full and sufficient booke they might make vp of them selues if al the residue throughout all the foure bookes were gathered togither and sorted in their troupes and orders of these your common places But these only shall suffise for this your first booke for a viewe of the rest to shew what good diuinitie of Louaine your volume is most â—…arced withall and what as ye say they shall looke for at your handes Master Stapletons Beadroll and collection of vntruthes vvith a plain and brief ansvver to euery one of them so many as are noted in his fyrste Booke His ovvne chalenge of the Bishop for vntruthes YOur answere is so fraighted and stuffed with falshodes your vntruthes do so swarme and muster all along youre booke that for the quantitie of your treatise you are comparable to Maister Iewell youre vntruthes amounte to the number of sixe hundred fourescore and odde they be so notorious and so many that it pitieth me in your behalf Crocodili lachrymâ—… to remember them but the places be euident and crie corruption and maye by no shifte be denied If my curiositie in noting them displease you lette the vttering of them fyrst displease your selfe then ye will the lesse be displeased with mee You knowe maister Iewell hath led vs this daunce be not angrie Maister Horne if we followe the round 1. Preface pag. 19. The ansvvere to the collection of vntruthes VVinchester If I had not seene a further meaning in his setting foorthe and publishing the booke than he durst playnly vtter Stapleton The first vntruth slaunderous concerning master Feckenhams meaning Bridges Lo euen at the first striking vp of the round what a passing notorious vntruth is here to bee the captain ringleader to all this bande ye may well M. Stapl. not pitie it but pitie youre selfe and be ashamed also to haue so cried out of suche notorious vntruâ—…hes and here to beginne your daunce with this to haue vs look for the lyke to folow the rounde Howe vntrue this is let eche man hardely coniecture and your selfe shew that M. Feckenham durst not say all that he ment oftentimes in excusing him and euen your next vntruth will somewhat declare this further 2 But seing his chief end and principal purpose entended as may be iustly gathered in publishing the booke was to engraffe in the mindes of the subiects a mislikyng of the Queenes Maiestie as thoughe she vsurped a power authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters wherto she hath no right 2 His chiefe ende was farre otherwise as shall appeare You so chalenge this to be an other vntruthe that denying it to be his chiefe ende ye durste not saye but couertly confesse that an ende and purpose of him it was thoughe not the chief end Wherin ye proue that that ye chalenged before for an vntruth to be a truth that he ment more than he durst playnly vtter And yet howsoeuer ye woulde couer his and your meaning here both he in his booke and you in yours also durst plainly vtter that ye mislike hiâ—… Maiesties claime of this supreme authoritie and playnly laye to hir charge vsurpation Howe subiectlike let all true subiectes iudge And sitâ—… this his and youre bookes are
chiefly directed to dissuade hir subiects myndes to whome in hucker mucker ye sende these bookes ouer from the acknowledging of the sayde hiâ—… Maiesties supreme authoritie maye it not truly be sayde men maye iustly gather this as youre chiefe ende Is not euery wriâ—…ers chiefe ende to persuade his reader in his principall matter is not this here youre principall matter to improue the taking vpon hir of this authoritie If ye haue any chiefer ende or more principall purpose that is better than this cléere your self and shew it Uerâ—…ly our chiefest end in writing hereof is to persuade hir subiectes that by your deceiuings stand in any mammering to a godly liking of the sayd title as most dâ—…e and lawfull to hir highnesse estate And if yours be not the contrarie hereto let your doings be according and we shal like it the better But see here M. Stapleton how soone ye folter in your numbers and misse in your tale at the fyrste beginning of all ye haue scored vs vp in your marginall score two vntruthes when ye come to counting them twaine afterward in your answere ye recken vs vp thrée saying of the second in your score This is an vntrue and false surmise of Maister Horne as are the other two here also reckning vp that that ye counted for the first And thus wée knowe not whether we haue euen or odde 2. or 3. Wherby all your reckening is marde and false counted Is this your daunce M. Stap. in beginning to trip the round when one lye tumbles out so proprely in the necke of an other But hoysta God blesse them they fallout faire Howbeit as they say it is a good horse that neuer stumbled thoughe it be an euill signe to stumble yea to fall downe right at the first setting out I make proofe by the continuall practise of the Church in like gouernment as the Queenes Maiestie taketh vpon hir The thirde vntruth you neuer proue the like gouernment namely in all Ecclesiasticall thinges and causes The truthe or vntruthe of this being referred to the triall in the sayde practise will soone pull backe this thirde dauncer from hopping in your rounde And as for your self ye are a false piper M. Stapleton thus soone vnto your liâ—… to pipe a wrong rounde harping on an other issue than was required of the B. to proue Wherin as your greate falshood â—…hal appeare so your selfe do here halfe graunt this to be no vntruth daring not flatly say the Bishop neuer pro ued the like gouernment which the Bishop only here affirmeth but you denie it in a respect namely say you in al ecclesiasticall things and causes â–ª which the Bishop here affirmeth not nor it is his propre issue in question demaunded of Master Feck and yet he proueth euen that also I haue put into englishe the authors myndes and sentences The fourth vntruth for he wrongfully alleageth both the wordes and meanings of his authours He bringeth no instance at al wherby to proue this that he sayth which til he can do it must go for a lie of his owne making wherby he measureth other mens translations by his owne corrupting his authors wordes sentences mindes and all as is alreadie declared This title is so replenished with vntrue reportes The fyfth vntruth in wrongfully charging M Feckenham for the title of his treatise Whether Master FeckeÌ„hams treatise had a true title or no lette others déeme Maister Feckenham made a treatise entituled by the name of An ansvvere to the Queenes Maiesties Commissioners and the same by writing be deliuered to the Bishop of Winchester and afterwarde sent abroade the sayd Treatise entituled by name The declaration of suche scruples c. as Maister Iohn Feckenham by vvryting did deliuer vnto the Lorde Bishop c. when he neuer deliuered any suche entituled treaâ—…ise vnto him Is this then vntruly or wrongfully donâ—… to charge him of the title of his treatise His sixth and seuenth vntruth trifling denials You. c. not without the helpe of the reste as may be gathered deuised wrote and purposed to deliuer this booke to the Commissioners The eyght vntruth slaunderous Neither doth the Bishop flatly affirme it but only sayth as may be gathered whervpon M. Stapl. can not iustly gather a flat asseueration one way or other â–ª to conclude his vntruth Neither doth M St. improue it any way thoughe â—…e himselfe and that verie often without any coniecturing of the matter and yet can he gather no iust coniecture therof doth boldly charge the Bishop with the helpe of other Which so often as he doth he shoulde remember that this vntruth returneth on himselfe In al which points ye were so answered that ye had nothing to obiecte but seemed resolued and in a manerfully satisfyed The. 9. vntruth M. Feck was neuer so answered And in his couÌ„terblast he saith had not the B. put in these wordes In a maner otherwise it had passed al goodmaner honestie too so vntruly to make report the contrary being so wel known that he neuer yelded vnto you in any one poynt of religion neither in Courte nor yet in mannour nor else where Ye are a mannerly man I perceyue mayster Stapleton and as full of good manners or honestie it appeareth as an egge is full of oatemeale Belike ye haue bene brought vp neyther at courte nor mannour but at Hogges norton as they saye for otherwise what good manner or honestie is this to chalenge youre better of so heynous vntruth and proue nothyng at all agaynste hym but saye the contrarie is well knowne when your selfe knowe it not at al but speake without the booke For shame M. Stapl. learne better maners to referre it to them that were present at the hearing of both parties and then shal ye hazard your honestie and truth a great deale the lesse and shewe your nourture to be the more Wherevpon I made afterwarde relation of good meaning towardes you to certayn honourable persones of the good hope I had conceyued c. The. 10. vntruth incredible VVhat good meaning coulde he haue to him when he would haue him reuolt from the religion by him receiued and professed at Baptisme to reuolt from the faith of Christes catholike churche c. Why Master Stapleton is this incredible that the Bishop hoping of his conformitie in making relation thereof to the honourable might not haue therin a good meaning yea admitte the truth whiche he professeth were as false as you woulde haue it séeme to bée mighte he not for all that haue a good meaning Saule had a good meaning ye wot when he did full ill And how say ye to your Scholemen that speake so muche good of a good meaning yea euen in ill causes But as the Bishop meant wel to him so the cause was good also and your cause naught how well so euer ye meane in an
ill matter Ye meane well I dare say for ye good man when ye talke of reuolting from the religion by him receyued at baptisme and the faith of Christes catholike churche meaning your popishe religion and churche and manie times ye wishe the Bishop to acknowledge it but he and all godly wise men doo sée howe you are deceyued in your well meaning by euill and false assumptions takyng that for Christs catholik church which is not nor the popish faith is that faith which we professed at baptisme but a degenerate faith Nor Master Feckenham was baptized if he were rightly baptized in the name of the Pope or the Popes religion Which if you doe meane your selfe meane not so well to him as you pretende Now for the vntruth of the Bishops well meaning to M. Feckenham be the cause as it be may this way or that howe dare you so boldely anouch that it is incredible the B. shoulde meane him well Beware M. St. ye presume not to sit in Gods seate the hart of man which for meaning is only knowne to God and the meaner Quiâ—… enim hominum scit quae sunt hominis nisi spirituâ—… hominis qui in eo est For what man knoweth the things that are of man but the sprite of man that is within him A certaine friend of yours standing by and hearing what I had declared then to the honorable in your commendation did shortly after reporte the same vnto you The. 11. vntruth There was no such reporte made Any aâ—…nswere were néedlesse but that the facing of this man is shamelesse that denieth so boldely he knoweth not what The right honorables God be praysed be yet aliue to whom the Bishop reported it the stander by at the same time as those right honorables can tell was a Gentleman named M. White of Southwicke whome since God hath called away which openly to M. Feckenham in the hearing of the Bishop and all other present declared that he hearde the Bishop speake to the honourable in his comendation Al this notwithstanding 〈◊〉 in M. StapletoÌ„ like another suborned Stilpho that neyther was there nor as he confesseth in his Prâ—…face Pag. 24. had any skil of the priuate doingâ—… betwéenâ—… them and yet he steppeth in as boldely as though he had benâ—… the chiefe 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 denieth that there waâ—… any such reporte at all But to vse his owne termes what is impudencie if this be not Doubting that youâ—… confederats should vnderstand of your reâ—…olte 12. which they euer feared hauing experience of your shrinking from them at 13. Westminster in the conference there The. 12. vntruth slaunderous The. 13. vntruth notoriously slaunderous Here in your score are notched vp two seuerall vntruths in your answere bothe these two by contraction are but one vntruth â–ª and thus ye can not kéepe your tale Yea But this saye you incomparably passeth and farre excelleth all your foresayd vntruthes and so belike it maye goe well for two it selfe But wherefore is this so passing an vntruthe The bishop sayd his confederates feared his noueltie hauing experience of his shrinking from them To this you replie and say In what one point of religion did he shrinke from his companie and in the ende ye come in asking further VVhat shrinking in religion call ye this as though the Bishop had charged him with shrinking from them in religion Which if M. Feck had done then would they no longer haue feared it being alreadie done but they were afterward afrayd of his shrinking in religion séeing his shrinking from them in that so péeuishly they stacke to their obstinate refusal wherin your self coÌ„fesse they refused to obey the Queenes highnesse coÌ„mandement And the lesse matter ye wold make it the lesse ought they to haue shewed such disobedience had they ben good subiects as they preteÌ„d or had they in déed stuck to their cause But they shronke froÌ„ their cause which of likelyhood they suspected Howbeit M. Feck seing not so much in it as they he as you say for his parte thought it not good to disobey the Queenes highnesse commandement and so therin shranke from them This Master Staple your self confesse and so or euer ye wist ye clere the Bishop of this incomparable vntruth Ye semed in our conference before had resolued The. 14. vntruth that M. Feck should giue vp his treatise in writing after he was resolued by M Horne And in his counterblast How vnlikely a tale is this that Maister Feckenham should either bee resolued by Maister Horne or beeing resolued shoulde then giue vp his matter in writing for none other cause than M. Horne reporteth I durst make any indifferent man iudge yea a number of M. Hornes owne sect there is no apparance there is no colour of this matter and therfore I wil be so bold as to adde this to his other vntruthâ—… This vntruth springeth of two causes the one the vnlikelyhod of the matter the other M. StapletoÌ„s boldnes for he wil be so bold as to score it vp But I pray you M. Sta. is euery vnlikelyhood an vntruth with you ye are ouer bold that dare so affirme Were ye present there Did ye see the dealing can ye tel the coÌ„trary No â–ª How dare ye then say it â–ª write print it to all the world that it is an vntruth Is this sufâ—… proof to say it is vnlikly to be Ergo it is not to presse this vnlikelyhood the sorer there is no apparance say you there is no color in this matter In déed here ye say truer thaÌ„ ye are aware there is no colour nor apparance â–ª but the very truth it selfe in that the B. sayd neither yet an vnlikely truâ—…h therin Nay say you I dare make any indifferent man iudge yea a number of M. Hornes owne sect that it is not lykely that M. Feck should be resolued or should giue vp his treatise in writing â–ª after he was resolued by M. Horne What man if you remember you but of youre own of your maister D. Hardings inconstancie and other a number euen of youre owne sect ere this ye may find likelyhod inough of M. FeckenhaÌ„s resolution yea euen in himself in K. Henries dayes and therfore bewarâ—… whom ye make iudge in the matter of this vnlikelyhood But setting like or vnlyke apart may a man be so bold as to say that your selfe so boldly charging the B. with an vnlikely vntruth make a manifest vntruthe for the B. said not aâ—… you tel the tale that M. Feck was resolued or that he wrote his treatise after he was resolued but that he seemed resolued these were the bishops words And so he likewise said before that he semed resolued in a maner fâ—…lly satisfied that he semed openly to haue little matter to stand in but that he was resolued that is to say fully persuaded the B. might haue some cause for all his hope to dout knowing that
vntruth M. Feckenham may repent that euer he hired you that haue not as ye saye slaundered him but spoyled him of all his faith and honestie Now where the Bishop sayd he spoyled hir Of a principall parte of hir Royall power ryghte and dignitie Yée adde youre 24 vntruthe saying The. 24. vntruth this is no part at all of the Princes royall power Yedenye this too late Maister Stapleton For where before the Byshop charged hym that hée spoyled hir of a principall parte and you saye for him he did so youre selfe bothe directly graunte it a principall parte and indire â—…ely bycause hee spoyled hir whereof I praye you but of that béelonged vnto hir For otherwyse hée spoyled hir not if it were not hir ryghte And then shoulde you haue sayde he dydde not so whyche you doo not but flatlye confesse hee dydde so and therefore it was a parte thereof You play nowe after your retourne into your holde as you did after the Parliament before ye came out of the Tower to me The. 25. vntruth The Tower is not M. Feckenhams hold for it holdeth him not he it This vntruth in the yrkesome number of his ragman roll is chiefly noted to recreate the spirits of the reckoner with some pleasaunt deuise as M. Stapleton in his merrie conceyt thought good to sporte at the name of holde saying the Tower is not his holde for it holdeth him but not he it He lerned belike that iest of the fellon in Newgate to whoÌ„ when one sayde he was in for a birde that is vntrue quoth he I am in for an horsse so dalieth M. Stapleton about the ambiguousnesse of this word holde And when al his holde is done it is no vntruth of any matter nor spéech neyther so long as men vse it both ways commonly but I dare say M. Stapleton would be loth to haue the Tower no lesse his holde than it is M. Feckenhams His two laste vntruthes proued that M. Feckenham deserued that holde As for M. Stapleton who thinketh himself safe in his holde at Louain what holde he well deserueth elsewhere his reuerent spéeches on the Quéens maiestie hir Parliament and Realme in this his boke declare besides his open and stubborne disobedience Whereby your friendes might be the rather induced to continue their good opinion conceyued of you and also pay your charges weekely in the Tower sente vnto you 26. euery Saturdaye by your seruant who wrote and deliuered the Copies abroade as ye tolde me your selfe The. 26. vntruthe The Queenes Highnesse wordes in the Towre can testifie the contrarie Did the Quéenes highnesse in the Tower saye that M. Feckenhams friendes did not send vnto him wéekly to pay his charges did hir highnesse say so M. Stapleton ye affirme it boldly and nicke it on youre score But till yee proue it ye shall giue me leaue to thinke that youre wits were occupied about some other matter or else ye woulde haue set this note in some other place For in your counterblast speaking of this matter purposely ye haue nothing to say there to it but that it is as farre as I can vnderstand stark false And so calling it the Bishops gueste and suâ—…mize ye would put him to his proofe by some circumstance so that there it séemeth ye can not flatly improue it but requiryng further proofe déeming it a guesse daring not say it is stark false but as far as ye vnderstand and yet in your score so flatly to auouche it for a certain vntruth and so redily and precisely to affirme that the Queenes Maiestie sayde the contrarie therto iudge your self how these things haÌ„g togither Now that ye ar returned again to the tower and perceyuing that your frendes as you gaue them iust cause haue some mistrust of youre reuolt and wauering inconstancie whereby youre estimation and fame with your seruice to youre God the belly is decayed 27 A heape of slaunderous and rayling vntruthes Ye still confounde your talie M. Stapleton in nicking on so fast without aduisement making one an whole heap and an whole heape of vntruthes but one vntruth Belyke yée doe it by the figures of Arithmetike diminution and multiplication that ye vpbrayde to the Bishop in your preface wherby many are but this one and yet this one is many yea many slaunderous and rayling vntruths Although ye proue neither one slaunder or railing or any one vntruth at all but lette it quite alone for feare of opening further matter A sore head ye wist is soone broken and if they shoulde fall out in the ripping of them to be true M. Feckenham might rather beshrew your heart than con ye any thanke for noting suche vntruthes Other vntruthes he chiefly standeth vpon in his counterblast but they are none of the reckoning As the Bishops noting of M. Feckenhams impudencie saying VVhervnto presently I am required to svveare when no othe by the Bishop was required at all of him These and other falsehoodes that the B. layeth to M. Feck charge M Stap. though he say in his counterblast that the B. accumulate an huge heape of vntruths yet for shame durst he not put them in his score neither one by one nor alon a plump for feare his reckoning shoulde be called to an accompt but thruste them vp together in the thicke of his booke And yet séeing in the ende hée coulde not excuse Maister Feckenham of those thinges wherewith the Bishop charged hym Howe soeuer it be sayeth he this matter is nothing appertayning to the state of the principall question and of small importaunce Where in déede it muche apperteyneth to the purpose of the controuersie betwéen the parties and is of great importance to shewe the entrie into the whole controuersie But if it had ben as light as he would haue it séeme is it therfore lawfull for M. Feck to lie so impudently therin or for M. Stapl. so to excuse his lying You did know acknowledge and confesse this supreme authoritie in causes ecclesiasticall to be in king Henrie the eight and his heires The. 28. vntruth For no man can knowe that which is not true As ye were before disposed to be somwhat pleasant in your note of the holde so here you vtter an other knack of your budget to shewe howe déepe a Philosopher ye were in suttle knowledge and therfore where the Bishop according as eche man vseth to speake did say that M. Feckenham did know and acknowledge it then in confessing this supreme authoritie of the Prince you contend on the word knowe that hée did not knowe it bycause it is not true and cite Aristotle to witnesse Why sir dothe not the Scripture euen in the beginning mention Arborem scientiae boni mali The tree of the knowledge of good and euill And yet doe all the Philosophers say that Verum bonum malum falsum conuertuntur looke what is true that is good and looke what is euill that is
false Knowledge therfore is not alwayes taken so precisely to be onely of true things but graunting you this precisenesse that knowledge is only taken to be true thingâ—… yet you do yll herein bicause ye take after your ordinarie custome Pro concesso controuersum that to be graunted that is in question whether your or our part be true or false héerin Yea why maye not we saye and that wyth greater reason that you take the truthe for falsehoode and falsehoode for truthe And so you nor any of your syde notwithstanding all youre great bragges and thys your clearkly booke haue anye true knowledge VVell maye ye saye as ye doo moste falsly and to youre poore wretched soule as well in this as in other poyntes moste dangerously beleue the contrarie but know it yee can not vnlesse it were true for knowledge is only of true things and as the Philosopher sayth Scire est per causas cognoscere Do ye know whose words al these be and yet ye sée how they serue our turne far better than yours M. Sta. bycause our cause resteth on the truth which is the infallible worde of God Deus est verax God is true yours is grounded on the doctrines of men Omnis auteÌ„ homo mendax but euery man is a lier And therfore is it lesse maruel sith ignorance and falsehood knowledge truth are al one that ye account somuch of ignorance make it to be the mother of deuotion that ye kepe down the people in ignoraÌ„ce which conspireth with falshood cannot abide knowledge that is linked with truth as ye haue loÌ„g kept the truth vnder a bushel so yet you caÌ„not abide that it shuld come to the knowlege of the people perceiuing the sith knowledge hath begon to spring in the world our cause withal as the truth hath florished yours hath drouped as that falshod wherfore your freÌ„â—… haue cried out vpoÌ„ al good letters séeing that their cause hathe had no greater enimie than knowledge is no greater maynteyner than ignoraunce Qui male agit odit lucem nec venit ad lucem ne opera eius arguantur He that doth euill sayth Christ hateth the lighte nor commeth to the light lest his workes should be reproued Next vnto this you note a rabblement of vntruthes but ye neither number them in youre Calendar but onely marke them with a starre in the forbead nor in youre replie say any more vnto them than this I will not nor tyme will serue to discusse them but why woulde youre will and your time serue you to chalenge them for vntruths and not serue you to discharge your chalenge and your owne truth in prouing them so to be but go to I see there is no remedie wée must tarie your leysure vntil that youre will come on you and that your tyme will serue you Many horrible erroures and superstitions of Monkerie The. 29. vntruth reprochefull and slaunderous This was so vntrue that all the world rang of it and the Papists themselues cried out theron Although ye were in the Tower in king Edwardes tyme that was not for any doubte of the supremacie for that ye still agnised but for other poynts of religion touching the ministration of the sacraments The. 30. vntruth This was not the cause of his imprisonment as shall appeare Here in his beadroll thoughe ye sée he denyeth it â—…latly yet in his counterblast where he toucheth the same he dare not be so impudent But saith as I vnderstande so that if hée be chalenged of rash dealing to affirme that for an vntruth that he stammereth in no will he saye looke my beadroll and ye shall fynde that I denyed it flatly and boldly withoute any stammering at the matter If againe this bolde flatnesse be proued a â—…atte lie â—…ushe will he saiâ—… I referred it in saying it shoulde appeare to my counterblast where I declare no further than I vnderstode by my freendes let it light on them if it be a lie thus cunningly Maister Stapleton hath handled the matter But a manifeste lye it is that he maketh howsoeuer he auonch or mollifie the same For this was a special cause of his imprisonment as those can tell that be yet liuing who were sente to him and to others to persuade them therein And by whome soeuer hée vnderstoode it it is but M. Stapletons and his misseinformers lye And where he would excuse the matter bicause he was examined in the matter of Iustification doth it follow therfore he was not in also for the matter of the sacrament being principally then in controuersie The Bishop only said be was in for other pointes of religion and namely touching the Sacrament but sée howe pretily M. Stapl. would bleare the readers eyes with quarelling at this half point of the sentence least the reader shoulde marke wherin the Bishop principally charged M. Feckenham that hee had confessed this article of supremacie all King Edwardes dayes and so knewe and acknowledged it then contrarie to his pretence of ignorance nowe therin And this digresseth not from the matter in hand But from this M. Stapleton slippeth in great silence and sayeth not a word therto but dalieth about other matters to finde the readers play And so by his owne rule confesseth by not denying the verye poynt in hande that M. Feckenham all king Edwards time though he were in the Tower yet euer hee agnized this title then that he refuseth nowe Wherevnto also you agreed and promised to professe and preache the same in open auditorie wheresoeuer you should be appoynted Wherevpon a right worshipfull Gentleman procured your deliuerance The. 31. vntruth slanderous He was not deliuered vpon any promise of recantation but to bee disputed withall Here M. Stapl. maketh muche adoe to conuince the Bishop of an vntruth and to make it seeme more probable he citeth diuers honourable and worshipfull to witnesse and al nothing to the purpose in hand excusing M. Feckenham of that wherwith no bodie charged him and answering nothyng but by silence consessing that that he was charged withal The bishop made no mention of any conference or disputation had with M. Feckenham after his departure oute of the tower but of that conference whiche was with him maister Moreman and maister Crispine whyle they were in the Tower. When at their owne suite to the councell they desired to haue some learned men with whom to conferre especially about the sacrifice of the Masse the ministration vnder bothe kyndes and the ministration vpon a table and not an altare And at this their sute Master Storie the Bishop then of Chichester and Maister Roberte Horne then parson of All Hallows in Breadsteat now bishop of Winchester were appointed by the honourable counsel to deals with them which they did by the space of a moneth at sundry tymes till that Master Feckenham did â–ª consent with them in all these thrée poyntes and so by maister Hobbies
meanes was deliuered as also M. Crispine shuld haue ben but that death preuented him only M. Moreman stubbornly persisting in his errours remained still in the Tower. In this conference M. Feckenham promised to preache as the Bishop truly charged him Of which conference and promise there be yet many on lyue both worshipfull and honeste men to witnesse the same and proue you a lyer M. Stapleton so impudently to denie it You had nothing to say to the contrarie The. 32. vntruth more slaunderous as may wel appeare by this your booke It appéereth thereby right well in déede and shall further appéere that you also had not any greate thyng else to to saye to the contrarie neyther excepting these and suche lyke your brabbling common places For answere I say they ought to take vppon them such gouernment as doth the Quéens maiestie The. 23. vntruth employing a contradiction to youre former aunswere made to Mayster Feckenham as shall appeare The answere is here cited for an vntruthe but for triall it is referred to appeere in an other place on the other side of the leafe in the counterblast and there being cited also bicause nothing is proued but by M. Stapletons hearesay of an other contrarie answere the matter is there againe further deferred to be hearde an other daye when Maister Stapleton shall be occasioned to entreate more at large hereafter vpon the matter wher at the Calends of Gréece it shal be proued both an vntruth and to implie a contradiction The contradiction that he would enforce is betwéen a suborned answer forged to be made in the bishops name which he neuer made and this present answere which the B. maketh so that in déede there is no contradiction at al in his answere bicause the one of them is of their owne making not of his As for the vntruth of the Bishops answere standeth only on M. Stapletons bare saying that it is false and deceyuable And ye must wel weâ—…e that M. Stapl is of suche indifferencie and credence that he would not saye it on his worde if it were not so and therefore in any case ye must beléeue him or else ye marre his reckoning The. 34. 35. 36. 37. vntruths bicause they are the whole matter throughout the eight chapter wherwith he chargeth the Bishop in the answere to the chapter they are at â–ª large answered Besides a number of Master Stapletons vntruthes detected Moyses was not the chief priest or bishop The. 38. vntruth for Moyses was the chiefe Priest as shall be proued Howe this promise shall be proued or the Bishops saying improued to auoyde anticipations repetitons thou must resort to M. Stapletons proues and the answer thervnto The charge of chiefe gouernment ouer Gods people bothe in causes temporall and ecclesiasticall was committed to Iosue The 39. vntruth Iosue had not the supreme gouernement in Ecclesiasticall causes but Eleazarus had it Whether he had it that commaunded Eleazarus in ecclesiasticall matters or Eleazarus that obeyed his commaundement is easie to iudge And notwithstanding any thing that M. Stapleton bringeth beside his bare allegatioÌ„ Iosue had the supreme gouernement therin To Eleazar only belonged the administration of things belonging to the Priests office The. 40. vntruth For beside in all thinges to be doone of Iosue Eleazar should instruct him If this were beside the administration of things belonging to the Priestes office then to administer instruction in any thing vnto the Prince was not the Priests office For if it were belonging to his office why saye you it was beside being conteyned in it But sée your fonde reason the Bishop saith he had not the supreme gouernement but the administration of things belonging to his office yes say you he should instruct the Prince Ergo he had the supreme gouernment of him Neither had he say you that supreme gouernment as his office or belonging to him but besides and not belonging thervnto whyle the questioÌ„ is whether this supreme gouernement belong to the Priests office or to the â–ª Princes office but your self withal exclude it from the Priestes office And thus to nick vp on the score apace ye speak it séemeth ye can not wel tell what Dauid c. the supreme gouernour ouer all estates both of the laitie and of the clergie in all maneâ—… of causes The. 41. vntruth Dauid was not suprme gouernour in all maner causes but suffered the Leuites in Church matters to liue vnder the rule of their high Priest. As though these two might not bothe agrée verie wel togither except it were in such an vsurper as is your Pope As for the Quéenes Maiestie hir hyghnesse claymeth no suche Papaliâ—…ie but suffreth the inferiour ministers to liue vnder the rules of their superior Bishops yet hir supreme gouernment to ouersée that all of them obserue their rules in their vocations is no whit empaired Salomon deposed Abiathar The 42. vntruth for Salomon of his owne authoritie as your argument runneth deposed not Abiathar but executed only the sentence pronounced before by Samuel Gods minister Your selfe confesse the Bishops wordes M. Stapleton nor ye can for shame denie them the Scripture is plaine for them and therfore ye runne from them to the Bishops sense and say not his wordes but his meaning and argument is vntrue therein for he dyd it but not by his owne authoritie but executed Gods sentence as thoughe these were contradictorie to execute Gods sentence in doing it and to doo it by his owne authoritie when all authoritie of any Prince commeth likewyse from God and he is Gods minister and executer thereof and yet withall it is hys owne authoritie bicause the authoritie is giuen him of God thereto Althoughe herein chalenging the B. of one vntruthe ye vtter two vntruthe your self together on a clap First ye say he executed only the sentence pronounced before by Samuel Gods minister Where the texte that afterwarde ye cite fayth not so but to fulfill the wordes of the Lorde whiche he spake ouer the house of Hely in Silo which wordes of the Lorde we fynde out in thâ—… 2. and. 3. chapters of the first booke of the Kinges where the whole story is at large set out and deteâ—…s your falshoode The wordes that doe threaten Hely and his posteritie in the. 2. chapter were pronounced by a Prophet in déede but he is not named the text only sayth Venit auteÌ„ vir dei ad Hely ait ad eum haec dicit Dominus And there came a man of God to Hely and sayd vnto him thus sayth the Lorde c. This Prophet pronounced and was Gods minister therein among other things euen this deposition of Abiathar But this man of God was not Samuell who was at that time as yet but a childe The seconde time was in the next chapter by God him selfe that called Samuell thrée times and the
Gods name let it there appeare where it is also answered folzâ—… For his 48. and. 49. vntruthes he alleageth no reason nor cause onely he sayth the former is boldely auouched but no way proued and the other somewhat more impudent Since therefore he hath nothing wherein to conuince them I may wel returne his boldnesse and impudencie to him selfe and remitte the tryall of the truthe or vntruthe to the discussing of Iosias ensample Nowe haue you shewed your selfe playnely herein to be a Donatist also The. 50. vntruthe most slaunderous M. Horne and his fellowes are in many poyntes Donatistes as shall appeare The triall of this vntruthe is discoursed at large in the proper place where M. Stapleton citeth it to appeare there shall be heard inough for triall of this chalenge pro contra and as the Reader on the viewe of bothe shall there finde it so on Gods name let him estéeme of it The Donatistes sayde they were of the Catholike fayth of the Catholike Church-which shifte for their defence agaynst Gods truthe the Popishe sectaries do vse in this our time beeing no more of the one or of the other than were the Donatistes and suche like The. 51. vntruthe Answere the Fortresse M. Horne annexed to sainct Bede if ye dare to defende this most sensible and grosse lye Howe happie are you M. Stapleton that euer ye buylt suche a Fortresse that ye thus can crake of so lustily bidde vs come and assayle crying aunswere the Fortresse and come if yee dare and if he come not then he dare not come if he set not on your Fortresse then this must néedes be a lye Muste it nowe truely then youre Fortresse is but a weake Fortresse if the prouing this a lye doe aunswere and ouerturne your Fortresse We néede neuer goe thither for the matter to proue your Church noâ—… the catholike Church nor to haue the catholike fayth this wil be proued in this booke well inough I warrant ye or euer it be ended ye shal sée your self more than once or twice confesse it And diuers other haue at large proued it what néede we then runne to your Fortresse In the next diuision which is the. 19. M. St. gathereth an other vntruthe but before it he setteth downe two marginall notes The first where the Bishop sayd All the sectes of the Donatistes whether they be Gaudentians Petilians Rogatists Papistes or any other sect c. Upon this word Papistes master Stapleton maketh a starre saying You should haue sayd Protestantes who in so many points as hath bene shewed resembled the Donatistes It is well inough M. Sta. and ye can let it stand til time be ye haue vntrussed all those poyntes euen from your own sloppes then ye may go perhaps like Baily hosegodowne The. 2 â–ª note is this Where the Bishop hauing alleaged a long sentence of S. Augustine agaynst M. Feckenham Thus farre S. Augustine sayth he by whose iudgement of the catholike Church c. Note sayth M. Stap. that nowe S. Augustines iudgement is also the iudgement of the catholike Churche To the which note I also adde this note withall M. Stapleton that your Church is not then the Catholiks Church whose iudgement herein agréeth not with Sainct Augustines iudgement Loe M. Stapleton howe pretily yourself begin to aunswere your last vntruth if ye holde on thus we shall not greatly néed to scale your fortresse euen this your CouÌ„terblast will encounter and ouerblowe it After these two notes he setteth downe his vntruth Your errontous opinion The. 52 vntruth M. Feckenham holdeth no such opinion The opinion there mencioned and confuted by S. Augustine is this of the Donatists that the order rule and gouernment practised be the Kinges of the olde Testament in ecclesiasticall causes ar not figures and prophecies of the like gouernment to bee in the kings vnder the newe Testament nor the order that Christ lefte behinde him in his Gospell newe Testament This was the opinion of the Donatistes in Saint Augustines time and this is yours Master Fecknams and Master Dormans opinion nowe that they are not such figures and prophecies and therfore ye confesse your selfe fol. 62. that M. Feckenham omitted the proufes of the olde Testament bycause they made against him Nowe whether this be an erroniouse opinion or no I commit you and Saint Augustine togither to scamble about it The. 53 vntruth Whither S. Augustine haue witnessed no such large and supreame gouernment as we attribute now to Princes yea whither Master Stapleton haue graunted so much or no is proued at large in the. 19. 20. Diuisions Your wilfulnesse is such that you delight only in wrangling against the truth The. 54. vntruth â—…claunderous Then are your selfe this â—…claunderer M. Stapleton that confesse Folio 62. he omitted to shewe forthe the truths of purpose bicause it made agaynst him what is this but wiâ—…full wrangling agaynst the truthe Constantine made many holesome lawes and godly constitutions wherewith he restrayned the people with threates forbidding the sacrificing to Idols to seeke after the diuelishe and superstitious soothsaying to set vp Images The. 55. vntâ—…uthe They were Idols not Images that Constantine forbad his subiects to set vp And in his Counterblast fol. 68. he sayth to say that Constantine forbad to â—…et vp Images is an open and a shamelesse lye What shamelesse outfacing is this The very words euen in the same place and many other of the booke are playne agaynst Images and nameth bothe Idols and Images also as the Bishop dothe Which withal confuteth his subtile distinction betwéene Image and Idoll as though an Image might not be an Idoll also Neither can the distinction serue your turne For Constantine forbiddeth bothe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 As for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your selfe confesse he forbad whether he forbad Images or no these are Eusebius owne wordes in Gréeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lib. 2. Euen so Christe our Sauiour confirmed this their authoritie commaunding all men to attribute and giue vnto Cesar that which belongeth vnto him The. 56. vntruthe This place of S. Mathew maketh nothing for the Princes supreme gouernement in ecclesiasticall things It maketh as the Bishop alleaged it to confirme al that authoritie by Christes Gospell that was due before in the time of the olde Testament Which your selfe graunt â–ª but that Princes had supreme authoritie in ecclesiastical things in the time of the olde Testament the Bishop proued before and your selfe also graunted it though ye denied such supreme gouernement as we attribute Therefore this place maketh some thing for Princes supreme gouernment in ecclesiasticall things so bewrayeth your owne vntruth and the truth of the Bishop This to be Christes order and meaning that the kings of the nations should be the supreme gouernours ouer their people not onely in temporall but also in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes the blessed
Apostles Peter and Paule doe playnely declare The. 57. vntruthe The Apostles neuer declared any such matter So saye you in déede â—… Stapleton but the Bishops proofes out of Chrisostome and sainct Augustine do playnly declare they did The. 58. vntruth Of misunderstanding sainct Augustine bicause besides this bederoll he also chargeth the Bishop therewith at large in the Counterblast it is answered seuerally in the answere of the. 18. chapter Not meaning only the transgressors of the seconde table in teÌ„porall matters but also agaynst the offendours of the first table in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes or matters The. 59. vntruthe Sainct Augustine meaneth not to teach suche gouernement of Princes in ecclesiasticall matters as you teache but onely to punishe Heretikes and by the same to mayntayne the Catholike fayth decreed by the Clergie not by the ciuill Magistrate Belike ye can tell better what sainct Augustine meant than be could him selfe But S. Augustine is playne he néedeth no suche interpreter Remember your owne note maledicta glossa quae corrumpit textum Cursed be that glose that corrupteth the text S. Aug. interpreting the mynd of the Apostle to be that the authoritie power of Princes hath to deale in ecclesiastical causes so wel as in teÌ„poral The. 60. vntruth Saint Augustine neuer wrote so Ye shoulde haue tolde out the sentence of S. Augustine that the B. citeth which fully proueth it and then haue improued it as an vntruth if ye coulde whiche although ye do not yet in the margine of that sentence ye crye out lustily and say where is there in all this master Horne that the Princes haue to deale in ecclesiastical causes so well as in temporall For sooth master Stapleton euen here at your hand in this present sentence wherein S. Augustine proueth and your selfe also graunt so muche that the Princes authoritie punishethe so well abuses in eccl. causes and faultes againste religion as it doth ciuill or temporall causes but it punisheth all external faultes and abuses in al ciuil and temporal causes that by his supreme authoritie therein not as an others executioner Ergo it punisheth al external abuses and faults in all ecclesiasticall causes and religion and that by his supreme authoritie therein and not as the clergies executioner Eusebius c. vnderstanding the ministerie of the ciuill Magistrate to be about Gods religion and eccle causes so well as temporall The. 61. vntruth Eusebius neuer vnderstoode any such ministerie of the ciuill Magistrate In what things Eusebius vnderstoode the ciuil Magistrats ministerie to consist the B. set downe Eusebius his owne wordes to proue that he vnderstood it so you say he neuer vnderstoode it so but ye set downe neuer a worde neyther here nor in your Counterblaste to proue the contrarie which tyll ye shall be able to do the Byshoppes vnderstanding of Eusebius by his owne wordes is no vntruthe Eusebius saythe that in preaching by hys decrees true godlynesse in setting foorthe the religion of the moste holy lawe and the most blessed faythe the Princes ministerie consisteth in these things so wel as any other or before al other as his best ministerie But these things are not ciuill matters but spirituall and ecclesiasticall Ergo his ministerie by Eusebius vnderstanding consisteth so well in ecclesiasticall or spirituall matters as ciuill or temporall This moste Christian Emperoure did rightly consider as he hadde bene truely taughte of the moste Christian Byshoppes of that tyme that as the Princes haue in charge the mynisterie and gouernement in all manner causes eyther temporall or spirituall The. 62. vntruth impudent and shamelesse concluded but no whit proued And in his Counterblast I say it is a starke and most impudent lye that ye say without any profe Constantine was taught of the Byshoppes that Princes haue the gouernement in all manner causes eyther temporall or spirituall ye conclude after your manner facingly and desperately vvithout any proufe or halfe proufe in the worlde Here are wonderfull boysterous wordes Master Stapleton but greate boast and small roaste as they say For all this hyghe chalenge standeth on I saye and so in déede it appéereth to be your saying but hadde it not béene your saying Master Stapleton I woulde haue thought it hadde béene some cotqueanes cryaleyson and I woulde haue answered a wispe a wispe for setting aside your foule language what vntruthe is here concluded or what concluded that is not proued The Prince hath the setting foorthe of true religion of Gods moste holy lawe and the moste blessed faythe but these thinges are not ciuill but ecclesiasticall and spirituall the Prince hath to puâ—…te awaye and ouerthrowe all euilles that presse the vvoorlde but none presse the worlde more daungerously than superstition Idolatrie erroures heresies scismes sectes and false religion all whiche are no ciuill but ecclesiasticall and spirituall matters The Prince dothe these thinges not as an executioner of an others ministerie but all the dooing hereof is the ministery properly beloÌ„ging to his owne office yea it is his best ministerie Ergo he dothe all these thinges with as muche or more full and proper authoritie of his office â–ª as he dothe any other ciuill thing But his ministerie in ciuill things is by his supreme authoritie vnder God therin whose minister S. Paule calleth him This is the Bishops conclusion moste playne and true all your blackemouthed Rhethorike to the contrarie notwithstanding For this cause also Nicephorus c. compareth Emanuell Paleologus the Emperoure to Constantine For this cause the. 63. vntruthe as shall appeare There is no doubt some great cause that moued you M. Stapleton to put this in your bederoll of vntruthes that the Bishop sayd for this cause And if you were asked for what cause ye doe so it séemeth it would be harde for you to render any and therefore ye take a wise and a short way to tell vs it shall appeare But here ye shewe none nor any at all here appeareth And where it shoulde appeare there appeareth none also except this be sufficient reason onely to denie it and say it is no cause at all For these wordes onely appeare there VVhere ye say for this cause also c. this is no cause at all but is vntrue as of the other Emperour Constantine and muche more vntrue as ye shall good reader straight way vnderstande What cause I pray you is here alleaged and yet this is all that ye say vnto it sauing that as ye sayde before it shoulde appeare referring vs there hither here ye saye as the reader shall straightway vnderstande it And yet neyther straight way nor crooked way ye speake one worde more of the matter but goe about the bushe medling with other matters and not with the truthe or vntruthe hereof any more And so it appeareth nusquam and the reader shall vnderstande it nunquam Neyther is it any maruell if ye can not lette the reader to
vnderstande it for I thinke ye vnderstoode not the Byshops wordes your selfe which if ye had done ye wold neuer haue quoted it for an vnâ—…th for shame Ye knowe the Byshop before hauing for the vnderstanding of saint Paules wordes for the Princes ministerie alleaged the ensample of Constantine to shewe that his best ministerie consisteth in his carefull zeale direction of Gods glorie and truth and other matters of religion wherein Eusebius commendeth him being a famous ecclestastical writer and allowed amongst you sythe also Nycephorus another your late famous ecclesiasticall writer coÌ„parâ—…th moste expresly herein the Emperour of his time to Constantine the great what vntruth hath the Byshop committed to say For this cause Nycephorus compareth the one to the other for that he did so neerely imitate his duetifulnesse in ruling procuring and reforming religion to the purenesse thereof If Nycephorus haue not thus in these poynts compared them then a Gods name blame the Byshop that sayde for this cause alâ—…o Nicephorus c. but if Nicephorus haue so done then is the Bishop cleâ—…red of this vntruâ—… that said â—…e did so And if ye haue any quarrel to picke go picke it against Nicephorus that so did and not againste the Byshop that only sayde he did so Nowe whither Nicephorus haue done as the Byshop sayde 〈◊〉 did or no let the reader be vâ—…per The words of Nicephorus are long notwithstanding I will set downe some of them writing to the Emperoure he sayth thus Verily one shall suffice me as I mighte â—…aye for all with whome also perchaunce for that kinred and likelyhood whiche is betweene you and him you will gladly suffer your selfe to be compared and is this any other than that ConstaÌ„tine the great valoure and name among all men Constantine whose memorie ought to be as it were a certaine sprite in all menne VVho helped â—…s in oure moste necessitie and so mightely Constantine the greate in suche artes as belong to an Emperour in prudence incomparable but in feruencie towardes God and in great actes atchieued and contentions susteyned for the true godlynesse he is aboue all euen as the Sun is shining aboue the starres And art not thou O most excellent Prince the verie certain image of him here 〈◊〉 noteth in the margent coÌ„paratur c. The Emperor is coÌ„pared to Constantin the great and is conferred with him verily eueÌ„ so doth the glasse render the right shape of the Image as thou expressest the diuine shewe of his mynde and glisterest again being very like vnto him none otherwise than euen the naturall sonne doth represent his father and although I know well thou wilt disalowe my boldnesse which art chiefly wont to auoyde and beware of such prayses notwithstanding I will not doubte to saye this thing whiche I beeseech thee â—…o suffer me and consider my reason sith I chiefly knowe that thou art the sonne of God by grace and the Lords anointed aboue the reste that thou art the Image of him in all poyntes alyke which manifestly hast obtained the very godly form of him and the force and impression eyther of his liuing or imperial substance c. And so he runneth into particular poyntes wherin he compareth them togâ—…ther Is not all this enough master Sta. to proue the Bishops saying true for this cauâ—…e alâ—…o Nicephorus â–ª c. compareth these two Emperours togither but you 〈◊〉 this and shewing no cause in the world why ye chalenge the Bishop therefore runne to an other quarell about the Emperours name bycause the B. sayde as followeth For this cause also Nicephorus in his Preface before his ecclesiasticall hystorie dothe compare Emanuell Paleologus the Emperoure to Constantine The. 64. vntruth In putting Emanuel for Andronicus Ye are aunswered to this at large in the replye to your Counterblasting theron What soeuer his name were as it is called in question so the Byshop is cleared thereof following your owne principall auâ—…ors doctors that translâ—…ting and setting out this story named him euen as the 〈◊〉 â—…oth Emanuel Paleologus not once nâ—…r twice neyther â—…s the blinde man castes his â—…affe but as they say theÌ„selues on good considerations among them therevnâ—…o And so rehearsetâ—… his noble vertues The. 65. vntruth For this Emperour wâ—… a starke heretike So say you M. Stapleton and so ye reuile him in your Counterblaste for a wretched heretike also and a wicked dooer But your ecclesiasticall writer Nicephorus saith not so of him he reciteth 〈◊〉 many vertue â–ª and also 〈◊〉 and excellent vertues of this Emperour If he were not suche a one or had not such vâ—…rtues as Nicephorus rehearâ—…eth him to haue what is that to the Byshop who only sayth Nicephorus reciteth his noble vertues And to proue this true the whole preface of Nicephorus is manifest beeing for the most part nothing but the Princes coÌ„mendation of such noble vertues as Nicephorus sheweth he was endewed withall He calleth him principâ—…n omniuÌ„ Christi aâ—…antissimo atque humanissimo qui prorsus omnes virtutes complexus nihil rerum pulcâ—…errimarum excellentissimaâ—…um pretermisisti The Emperor most louing of Christ and most â—…teous who hauing throughly aâ—…tained all vertues haste let slip nothing that is moâ—…e faire and excellent It were tedious to râ—…cite al or the quarter of that he citeth in the prayse of this Emperours vertues The preface throughout is manyfest the Byshops allegations that ye can not denie the comparison aforesaide betweene him and Constantine do declare yea your self confesse that Nicephorus doth highly aduance and exâ—… this Emperour But as Nicephorus saith if wée may beléeue him on his credite beeing called of all your side scriptor per onmia verè catholicus a verye catholike writer in all poynts he flattreth him not nor forgeth but speaketh the truth in praysing of him al which dothe sufficiently acquite the Byshoppe for saying that Nicephorus rehearâ—…eth his noble vertues The Princes supremacie in repairing religion decayed The. 66. vntruth Fonde and foolishe as shall appeare This is onely a marginal note that the Bishop prâ—…fireth to all the allegations that he citeth out of Nicephorus to any one sentence of which allegations M. Stapleton answereth nothing But thus iustleth at the marginall note and sendeth vs to his Counterblaste thereon where it shall appeare how vntrue howe fonde and foolishe it is Which the reader shall iudge when he hath read his Counterblaste the answere thereto That by their rule ministerie and seruice not onely peace and tranquillitie but also godlynesse and religion should be furdered and continued amongst men The. 67. vntruth No such wordes in S. Paule Ye doe the Byshoppe manifest iniury M. Stapleton neyther haue ye any vauntage to pretende any of your former quarels at the printe of the letters it is euident the Byshop setteth not down those words as the bare words of the tâ—…rt of S. Paule whiche he cited the line before adverbum
and with diffinct letter which he doth not here but Paraphrastically expoundeth the texte Wherein if he doe wreste the meaning of saint Paule ye shoulde hardly note that for an vntruthe â–ª S. Paule there nameth not religion that is true but that this worde godlynesse which saint Paule nameth comprehendeth not religion as the Byshop saythe that is your owne vntruthe But this matter is debated more at large in the answere to your Counterblast chap. 18. diuis â–ª 22. where is shewed bothe by the Fathers and by your owne chiefe writers that sainte Paule by this word godlynesse meant true religion Here ye set another blasing starre vpon these words that the Byshop sayth This woulde be noted with good aduisement that Sainte Paule himselfe sheweth playnely prosperitie amongste Gods people and true religion to be the benefites and fruites in generall that by Gods ordinance springeth from the rule and gouernement of Kings and Magistrats vnto the weale of the people This would be noted say you howe ye racke saint Paule he nameth not religion at all he dothe not attribute religion to the rule and gouernment of the ciuill Magistrat but peace and tranquillitie only in godlynesse Ye durst not note this for an vntruth M. Stapleton but for a racking or wresting althoughe this is but your peeuish difference If he racke saint Paules meaning he telleth an vntruth of saint Paule although this dothe cleare the B. of racking also that ye durste not playnely note and score it vp for an vntruth yet as the B. saying is most true so it nothing swarueth from the meaning of sainte Paule For aâ—… the B. proueth by Chrysostome that by this worde godlynesse is meant religion and the inwarde peace of the mynde and conscience and not only the outward peace of the body So Saint Paule maketh these to bee the benefites fruites and endes that by Gods ordinaunce wee receyue from the rule and gouernement of kings and magistrates in whiche saying S. Paule is not racked but it is you M. Stapleton that racke Saint Paule â–ª for he sayth not tranquillitie and peace only in godlinesse yâ—… may put your only in your pursse Saint Paule sayth in godlinesse and purenesse The whiche knot and fastening togither of religion and prosperitie incoÌ„mon weales the most Christian and godly Emperours Theodosius Ualentinianus did wisely foresee The. 68. vntruthe They sawe no suche confounding of the two functions spirituall and temporall as you imagine This vntruth is directed against the Byshops imagination ye go verie neare the B. M. Stapleton that where hée sayth no suche wordes as you chalenge ye will créepe into his heart and fetche iâ—… from thence ye haue a goodeye sighte that can see what the B. imagineth But wisdome wil think this to bée a fonde toy of your own idle imagination for the Byshops words import no such confusion as ye talke of hée telleth howe godlynesse and prosperiâ—…e are lincked togither in common weales so that the one cannot be well without the other that the Prince is the knitting togither of both these and this he saythe the Emperours sawe and that they sawâ—… it he bringeth good proufe theire own manifest words set downe at large eyther proue this an vntruth M. Sta. or else the B. hath made nene it is but your vntrue sclaunder fonde imagination I haue proued c. That such like gouernment in Churche causes as the Queenes Maiestie taketh vpon hir dothe of duetie belong vnto ciuill magistrates The. 69. vntruth Such like gouernement you haue not nor euer shall be able to proue The B. saith that in this first booke he hath hitherto proued it by the scriptures the Doctours and some Emperoures This you denie that he hath done and set him a long day to proue it Nowe the truth or vntruth of this the reader must hang in suspence til be haue read the prâ—…s ouer what they bee and then in the name of God lette himiudge whether the vntruthe lyghte on the Byshoppe or on Master Stapleton In the meane season â—…ytherto the Reader maye haue a taste what shame is in this impudent mannes â—…ace what truthe in his cause and what folly in hâ—…s heade thus to the wide worlde to score and sette out suche thinges for vntruthes as beeing neuer so little rypped vp are moste apparante truthes and to make suche a tryumphante gambolde and pyping vp of a round as hee doth thereon But leâ—…te hym daunce his â—…yll and nicke vp still on the score in the ende hée will runne so farre in the lashe that no man will credite a worde of his mouthe MeÌ„daci non crâ—…ditur ne iurato quidem A lyer is not beleeued no thoughe he svveare ⧠To Master Stapletons first Preface OR euer Master Stap â–ª enter into his counterblast he prefixeth two Prefaces the first to the B. the second to the Reader The first bicause it is only a packet trussed vp of all such accusations as he layeth to the Bishops charge through out his whole counterblast and so is to be aunswered in their proper places I minde not therefore to follow Master Stapletons vaine that saith Decies repeâ—…ta placebunt to spende the time and trouble the Reader more than néedes in answering to them here that are to be answered in their places seuerally and are already many of them noted before in his Common places The effect and conclusion of this preface in the ende is this That the Bishop must néedes make a full reioynder A full reioynder I say saith he and perfect to all and euery parte of this reply and put in Master Stapletonâ—… whole answere not omitting any one line or sentence either of the text or of the margine or els the truth is not on the Bishops side or els he waÌ„teth learnyng or els he buildeth on no good fundation nor the cause he groundeth on is sure or els all men vvill laugh him to scorne for his faire piece of vvorke so shamefully broken of or els M. Feckenhams scruples are most learned and inuincible reasons or els the othe can not be takeÌ„ with out manifest periurie or els Master Horne must retract his most haighnouse heresies or els which I should haue set before all that the B. hath saide is but vvoordes of course to saue his poore honestie and but waltham talke or els as he obiecteth foolishnesse to the B. so M. Stapleton may proue as wise as walthams calfe and thus as he saith to the B. for this time I take my leaue of you Vale resipisce so may I for this your first Preface take my leaue of you Master Stapleton Uale sape ⧠To Master Stapletons seconde Preface THe seconde Preface is directed to the Reader and is coÌ„triued in thrée partes The first sheweth the reasons why he tooke vppon him to answere the Bishop The second how by what order he procéedeth in his answere The thirde is an earnest admonition
to forsake this religion In the first parte he sheweth that Master Fekenham could not answere the B. him selfe but he sheweth no other reason thereof than this seing his state is such Secondly that the cause why he more than any other of his complices tooke vpon him to answere this least it should appeare to come of his owne ambitious busiositie was only at the request of some of his friends he will not tell of whom for so perhaps be might detect him selfe to be a disciple of BalaaÌ„s marke hyred for lucre to curse with his cursed and blackmouthed Rhetorike the Churche and truth of god And bicause hereby be would haue the reader couertly to vnderstande what kinne a great clerke he is of what terrour to his enemies and estimation among his friendes to entreate him more than any of all the rest to atchieue this enterprise he telleth vs he was not very willing therto bicause forsooth he purposed hauing so largely prouoked suche sharpe aduersaries especially M. Ievvell for a season to rest and stande to his owne defence if any would charge him Wherein he would not haue ye forget what a lustie prouoker of sharpe aduersaries he is And although for two causes he was lothe to medle therewith first for that many things in this booke pertaine to certaine priuate doinges betwixt M. Feckenham and M. Horne of the vvhich saith he I had no skill secondly for that a number of such priuate matters touching the state of the realme occurred as to them vvithout farder aduice I could not throughly shape any ansvvere yet notwithstaÌ„ding all these thinges that neyther touched M. Stapleton nor he had any skill of them nor could shape any ansvvere to them he must néedes intrude and busie him self to shape some mishapen ansvvere his fingers itched since none of al his sharpe aduersaries would once deigne to answere him to prouoke the B. in these things and where his skill should faile rather than his will should faile he would furnish out his answere with his foresaide common places in which he hath a very good skill and grace As for the residue of his wantes aftervvarde it so hapned saith he that by suche as I haue good cause to credite there came to my knovvledge such instructions as vvell for the one as for the other that I vvas better vvilling to employ some paines and studie in this behalfe How these instructions hapned to him we must not vnderstande all for feare it fall out as they say that asking his felow if he be a theeâ—… two false companions néede no broker As it will I feare me fall out Master Stapleton in the scanning of your false informations whereof your selfe were vnskilfull ye saye but ye haue good cause to credite them were the more vvilling to employ your paines and studie therein and good reason ye should credite them that make any thing for you For why they be credible men of your owne partie be it true or false they tell you recke not you let them beare the blame if they lie you did but tell it for them Why should ye not therefore employ your paines and studie to painte it out that the more willingly since they do paie well for it Now M Stapleton being wel instructed though he promise to take the vvillinger paines and studie in this behalf yet must ye not presuppose that he taketh this vpoÌ„ him for that saith he I thinke my selfe better able than other but for that I vvould not it should seeme there lacked any good vvill in me either to satisfie the honest desire of my friendes or to helpe and releue such as by suche kinde of bookes are already pitifully inuegled and deceaued or to stay other yet standing that this booke be not at any time for lacke of good aduertisement a stumbling stocke vnto them What soeuer here M. Sta. ye pretende of your forward good will who so coÌ„ferreth here with your CoÌ„mon place of boastings crakes may easily returne your own saying on your selfe that these are but vvordes of course to saue your poore honestie least men should sée detest your ambitious vaine glory herein Neyther doth your preposterous zeale couer it any whit except this be to helpe relieue a stuÌ„bler where scarce a straw laye in his waye before to tumble a stocke into his path to make him fall downe right Now that M. St. hath shewed the occasions that pricked him forward to set on the B. He secondly sheweth the manner of his answere Wherein first after his ordinarie crakings of his poore labour of his diligence of his vvhole and full replie he excuseth his long tediouse babling vvherein I rather feare saith he I haue saide to much than to litle which in déede he hath good cause to feare as his Common places do shal declare And yet would he haue euery word put in replied vnto him selfe in his owne coÌ„science hauing sayd to much alreadie But to excuse this faulte he hath a sufficient reason at hande that tediousnes is good to make al perfect and therefore he had rather be tediouse than shorte Thus hauing handsomly excused the matter he secondly sheweth the order of the Bishops booke M. Hornes ansvvere as he calleth it resteth in tvvo partes Why M. St. how call you it may it not thinke you be called an answere that answereth the demaunde or request of an other but as you wrangle péeuishly about the name so that curiouse fine pate of yours disdeyneth the playnâ—… and simple name of an answere or replie or any other vsuall worde as ye pretende to auoyde confusion but in déede to shew some singuler conceite and excelleÌ„cie of your booke which so finely ye Entitle A counterblaste to say the truth a blast not worth a counter to counterblowe and all to blast the Bishops answers with all The two partes that he deuides the Bishops booke into are these In the first saith he and chiefest he playeth the opponent laying forth out of the holy Scriptures both Olde and Nevve out of Councels both generall and nationall out of Histories Chronicles of all couÌ„tries running his race froÌ„ Constantine the great dovvne to Maximilian great grandfather to the Emperour that novv liueth taking by the vvay the Kings of France of Spaigne and of our owne countrie of England since the conquest all that euer he coulde finde by his ovvne studie and helpe of his friendes partly for profe of the like gouernmeÌ„t of Princes in Ecclesiasticall causes as the oth attributeth novv to the crovvne of Englande partely for the disproofe of the Popes supremacie vvhich the othe also principally extendeth to exclude In the secoÌ„d and later parte he playeth the defendaÌ„t taking vpon him to ansvvere and to satisfie certaine of M. Feck â–ª argumeÌ„ts and scruples of coÌ„scieÌ„ce vvherby he is moued not to take the othe Hovv vvell he hath played both his partes â–ª the perusall of this
examining of this matter hastneth to the full determination and solemnly sitteth downe like a Pope him selfe or Patriarth pronouÌ„ceth the definitiue sentence of this matter saying The premisses beeing true and of oure side abundantly proued and better to be proued as occasion shall serue as nothing can effectually be brought agaynst them so master Horne as ye shall euidently perceiue in the processe straggleth quite from all these poynts Ha sir howe Popelike ye haue handled all this matter But were it lawfull to appeale from your sentence or call it in question mightâ—… it not be asked whether the promisses were all true Yea might it not be doubted whether they were not all moste false mighte it not be thoughte that it were scarse abundantly proued of your side to say the Catholikes say so and I say so and masâ—…er Fecken vvill say so Might it not be suspected that ye still say ye haue proued it ye will proue it better â–ª ye shall hereafter shew it playnely â–ª we shall euidently perceiue in the processe and presently that we can perceiue ye proue nor shevve any thing at all and so sitte downe to sentence as though the matter were out of all doubte and controuersie determining solemnly that al these premisses be true and M Horne erreth in defending the contrarie This is an harde lawe M. Stap. presently to condemne and behead the man and then after to examine the facte But it is the dayly practise of your holy father and so lyke a good sonne ye follow his ensample But now sir whereto were all these sixe so vndoubted principles broughte foâ—…rthe They are say you the principall questions in variaunce betvveene the parties controuersed to fixe their eye vppon What are these but questions that were suche true and infallible principles righte nowe If they be but questions I see they bée still disputable for all master Stapletons definite sentence A man maye still doubte of them yea dispute of them And they may chaunce proue as false in the ende after diligent discussing them as master Stapleton without further doubt would haue them presupposed to be true But to saue all vprighte he sayth they are the principall questions controuersed betvveene them and yet master Horne dothe not once touche them he commeth not nighe them What doth he not man not once touch them nor come nighe them and yet M. Feck and he be most at variance about them What a variance is that belike he alloweth them go to go to M. Stap. leaue this fonde lying for shame Your selfe knoweth ech man may see that he toucheth and toucheth home as occasion serued him all those of them that were incident to his matter Some of them in déede he little medleth withall as questions principally sucked out of your owne fingers and deuised nowe by you to defeate all that he touched as though he touched other things and not the matter in question from the whiche ye say he straggleth quite But this is your doing M. Stap. ye bring in newe controuersies that were not the issue betwéene them on whiche you should haue fixed your eyes But the B. so touched the matter he had in variaunce and so touched you also that thus malapertly woulde varie with him and hitte you so full that your eyes stared belike in your head that ye coulde not or woulde not sée the question but quite straggled from it to other questions and those also which we must graunt ye for principles and theiâ—… no doubt but ye will conquere all alone These newe premisses béeing thus craftelie deuised and set vp by you as the principall questions in variaunce betvveene them that striued cleane about another matter as though neither the B. nor M. Feck sawe where aboutes they striued noâ—… fixed their eyes any thing néere their matter But fought more Andabatarum beating the ayre and them selues they wiste not about what and béeing nowe reuoked to their matter by you that neuer caste your eye so much as one glimpse aside therefrom these béeing also suche principall matters as muste withall of our liberalitie be graunted you for moste assured principles thinking nowe all is proued on your side M. Horne say you straggleth quite from al these poynts besetting him selfe all his studie and endeuour to proue that vvhich neither greatly hindreth our cause nor muche bettreth his and for the which neither M. Fek nor any other Catholike vvill greatly contende vvith him vvhich is vvhen all is done that Princes may meddle and deale in causes ecclesiasticall Ye do nowe like a liberall gentleman M. Stap. graunt vs more than some of your highest estates euer would allow Cardinall Hosiâ—…s durst not be so frée to Princes as to graunt them thus much as mouere sermonem to moue any talke of ecclesiasticall matters and dare you that are nothing like to come to so â—…ye promotion graunte that Princes may medle and deale with causes ecclesiastical What moued you hereto belike ye still dreamed of your former Papall sentence and that we had graunted or we must néedes graunt bicause you haue sayd so that these are the principall questions and these are also moste true principles â–ª and that nothing can effectually be brought agaynst them which when ye presupposed we must néedes graunt ye were content to graunt agayne to the B. that straggling as ye say from these poynts that whiche he proueth mayâ—… well be graunted him that Princes may medle and deale vvith causes ecclesiasticall But nowe sir put the case that this were but your owne fonde dreame that he graunteth you those to be his questions or those questions to be suche principles that eche man vtterly denieth that which you fancie eche man grauntâ—…th yea that M. Feck wil tell you that not one of these your sixe questions were any of his questions and that he dreamed not like you but saw well inough what be dyd when he stoode wholly on hys sayde issue of the dealing of Princes in ecclesiasticall matters yea and all your fellowes are ashamed that all the world should sée 〈◊〉 ye set vp wrong markes and fondly tooke for graunted that almoste eche man denies or doubteth of When your selfe béeing come to your selfe shall sée all this will ye not repent ye of your hastie liberalitie and saye your selfe sawe not so muche for if ye had ye would not haue graunted it so 〈◊〉 Which beeing in déede the thing in question and the thing wherein ye graunt the B. hath beset him selfe all his studie and endeuour to proue it not onely as you graunt agaynst yourselfe some what hindreth your cause somewhat bettreth his saying it neyther greatly hindreth our cause nor muche bettreth his but also it fully proueth the question in variaunce on his parte and cleane ouerthroweth M. Feck assertion therin And thus of your too muche prodigalitie as M. Feck may call it laboring to defende him ye haue quite foilde him and while ye would set vp new
they were most earnest fautors of the romish sea infected c. Whether they allowed it or not what was that to him in this parte of the practise he proued by their owne tales the thing to be practised not their allowance or disalowance thereof And yet might they yea ought also being Historians to write the facte whether they allowed it yea or no. As for making the Pope to be Antichrist diuerse of them haue not spared to call him so whether they tooke him to be so or no I referre to others But all this not withstanding you crie out these things be certenly and notoriously false these things be incredible M. Hornes tale incredible These thinges hang togither like Germaines lips But for short answere M. St. these incredible things if your owne light witte did not hang in the light of your owne liyng lippes ye might see them hang togither well inough Thus much to your counterblast on the B. Preface ⧠M. Feckenhams title of his Booke THe declaration of such scruples and stayes of conscience touching the Othe of supremacie as M. Iohn Feckenham by writyng did deliuer vnto the L. Bishop of VVinchester with his resolution made thereunto This title the Bishop noteth to conteine an vntrue reporte and ambiguous guile You pretend saith the B. and would haue your frendes to thinke that the first foure chiefe pointes set forth in your booke were deuised by you put in writing and so deliuered vnto me as the matter and ground Whervpon the conference to be had betwixt me you should stande and that I made therevnto none other but such resolutions as it pleased you vntruly to reporte In the first parte you conuaye an vntruth vnder a colourable and ambigious meaning in these wordes as M. Iohn Feckenham by writing did deliuer vnto the Lord B of VVinchester In the other parte you make vntrue report with out any colour at all Thus saith the B. to M. Feckenham for the false title of his Booke To this M. Stapl â–ª counterblast consisteth on foure points the first is that It is a by matter which whether it be true or false doth nothing either preiudicate or touche the principall question To the which I answere it is in déede but the very title but I feare me it is somwhat preiudiciall to the parties honestie also to his whole treatise to be entituled with a manifest lie Howbeit M St. doth wisely for himselfe to set the matter so light that it should not force whether this title be true or false so long as it doth not touche the principall question for by this rule M. Stapl. counterblast being almost litle els than by matters nor touching the principall questioÌ„ when soeuer as it will fall out very often he shal be sounde to make a lie the matter may quickly be salued with this his first rule it is a by matter which whether it be true or false doth nothing either preiudicate or touche the principall question And so this one answere may serue to defend not onely M. Feck but the best parte of M. Stapl. counterblast But if he had any great regard of his owne or M. Feck honestie or would winne credite to his booke cause he would haue more regarde then euen of the thing that is first of all chalenged for a manifest falshood to protest that he recketh not whether it be true or false It is a signe either of a very rechlesse defender that careth not for truth or of a very false client and cause that must be defended with falshood that euen in the very title front of the treatise But alas what should M. St. els do in so euident a case yet I may say to you he setteth a good face on the matter leauing out nothing that may séeme not only to make the matter lesse haighnous but also to proue that M. Feck vsed simple dealing herein And so secondly entring into the excuse of M. Feck VVhat incoÌ„uenience saith he is it I pray you though M. Feck wrote in the towre that which he deliuered to M. Horne at walthaÌ„ â–ª what inconuenience foloweth I pray you if he minded first to deliuer the same to his examiners in the Tower or els where as occasion should serue is this sufficient to disproue him to condemne him to slaunder him of surmised vntruth it is rather to be thought of such as are not malicious to be playne dealing â–ª not to dissemble with you but euen as he had penned the writing before so without any alteratioÌ„ to deliuer it â–ª who neuerthelesse afterwarde hauing occasion to exhibite and present the same writing to others did simply without guile or deceipt signifie it to be deliuered vnto you at walthaÌ„ â–ª and was it not so denie it if you caÌ„ Euery childe by this may see how fonde and foolish your cauill is But euery childe M. St. you thought should not see the couneyance of your Sophistrie in fetching the matter thus about the bush to clere M. Feck of the falshood of his title And yet many childreÌ„ know that captioÌ„ wel inough à pluribus interrogatâ—…s by asking many things togither confusedly to make vs grauÌ„t vnawares what ye please to conclude We graunt ye that M. Feck wrote that in the Tower that he deliuered to the Bâ—…at walthaÌ„ he did so and might do so without any inconuenience We graunt ye also he minded first to deliuer the same to his examiners in the tower or els where as occasioÌ„ should serue this might he also haue done conueniently You aske againe if this be sufficieÌ„t to disproue him to condemne him to slauÌ„der him of surmised vntruth We graunt ye also it is not M. St. nor the B. or any other goeth about so to do here in you do but slaunder the B. with surmised vntruth Ye procéede that it was plaine dealing and not to dissemble with the B. euen as he had penned the writing before so without any alteration to deliuer it We graunt it might be so also M. Stapl. if he meant good sothe but what is all this to the matter wherewith the B. chargeth him It followeth VVho neuertheles afterwarde hauing occasion to exhibite and present the same in writing to others did simply without guile or disceit signifie it to be deliuered to you at Waltham Yea forsooth M. St. now ye come to the purpose wherewith the B. chargeth him for the falshood of his title Proue now that this treatise thus made by M. Feck in the tower directed to the coÌ„missioners after that without any alteration deliuered to the B. at waltham had the same title which this his treatise set out hath then you cléere M. Feck But this you can not do and therefore you speake in â—…ious speaches saying VVho neuerthelesse afterwardes hauing occasion to exhibite and present this same writing to others did simplie without guile or deceit signifie it to be deliuered vnto you at
him agayne making the king become vassall feodatarie to the Pope and to holde the crowne and realme of him in fee farme and pay 700. marks a yere for England and. 300. for Irelande And hath not the Pope chalenged other kingdomes also yea doth he not clayme to be the chiefe Lorde and Prince of all kingdomes and to set vp and depose what king or prince he pleased And he that beléeued not this was not counted a noddie but an heretike And yet sayth M. St. was there euer any so much a noddie to say and beleeue the Pope raigned here but all Papistes muste be noddies with him yea his owne Pope in steade of a triple crowne muste weare a cockes combe and him selfe for companie will beare the bell But here he leapeth backe agayne to M. Gilbie not for the matter of supremacie but for his misliking of certayne orders of religion in king Edwards dayes and here vpon pleadeth that the Papistes are nowe more to be borne withal if they can not beare the seruice and the title set foorth I answere first M. St. another mans faults excuse not yours Neither Anthonie Gilbies and yours are alike For were his greater or any of those Protestants that ye vpbrayde vnto vs afterwards yet are they lesse in that they obstinately maynteyned not the same nor persisted therin nor attempted any conspiracies nor would haue a foraigne supreme nor suche an other as your Pope the father of errors and so on their submission or repentaunce their fault is pardoned or made lesse But you obstinately maynteine a playne refusall of obedience would haue a foraigne vsurper be your supreme and not onely subdue the realme and our bodies to his tyrannie but our soules to his errors neither do ye repente therof but perseuer in it and by wicked Libels priuie conspiracies and all other meanes that ye can deface Gods worde your natural prince natiue countrey your fault therfore is much greater thā his or theirs And therfore your wilful obstinacie is not to be borne withal especially since after so long and gentle tollerance of the Quéenes moste gracious lenitie towards you ye encrease your malice and harden your hearts with Pharao abusing hir highnesse lenitie Now where the Bishop sayd these dealings were a preparation to rebellion agaynst the Queenes person M. Stap. sayth that it nothing toucheth hir person nor hir crowne And that without the ecclesiasticall authoritie the crovvne hath continued and flourished moste honorably many hundreth yeres ▪ and shall by Gods grace continue full well and full long agayne when it shall please God. Why M. Stap. what meane ye by this dothe not the crovvne flourishe and continue euen nowe also God be praysed for it why say you then it hath flourished and shal agayne when it shall please God as though it dyd not now And the state of the Crovvne were nowe no estate or a very ill estate in the reigne of the Quéenes maiestie If this be not a preparation to rebellion to make the Subiectes mislike the estate of the Crovvne is it not then euen a rebellious Proclamation it selfe but let vs sée your argument that ye make hereon to excuse your selues Diuers Princes haue continued and flourished honorably of long time without the ecclesiasticall authoritie Ergo it is nowe no preparation to rebellion agaynst the Quéenes person to refuse hir authoritie ouer all causes ecclesiasticall and to defende that it apperteyneth not to hir person or Crowne I answere First the worde ecclesiasticall authoritie is very subtilly and doubtfully spokē as though hir highnesse went about to play the minister If ye meane so the antecedent is then true The ecclesiasticall authoritie nothing toucheth hir person or crowne ▪ without the whiche it hath most honorably continued and flourished many hundreth yeres and shall by Gods grace continue ful wel and ful long agayne when it shal please God. But then is this your most spitefull slaunder to say that the Quéene now taketh vpon hir eccl. authoritie and that it is now vnited to hir person or crowne which is most euident false And therefore the crowne flourisheth for any suche matter so well as euer it did And God graunt it neuer to flourish worsse than it doth vnder hir Maiestie now But the antecedent béeing so farre foorth true as is declared then the consequent followeth not that it is now no preparation to rebelliō to refuse hir authoritie ouer all eccl. causes and to defende that it perteyneth not to hir person or crowne But if in the antecedent by ecclesi authoritie ye meane authoritie ouer ecclesiasticall matters then the antecedent is false and so to be proued by the issue of the practise in this Realme Neither is it any good argument Bicause many tooke it not on them Ergo none may Bicause they did not vse it Ergo they ought not Bicause they had worldly prosperitie without it Ergo it was not necessarie to them Bicause the denial was no preparation to rebellion then Ergo it is none nowe None of these causes are sufficient M. St. and therefore your subtile and false reason fayleth Now when ye sée nothing will fadge this way eyther to defende you or to accuse vs ye will set vpon vs for other matters that we are those that make this preparation to rebellion Let this title and eccl. iurisdiction goe say you which all good princes haue euer forgone as nothing to them apperteyning let vs come to the very temporall authoritie and let vs consider who make any preparation of rebellion the Catholikes or the Protestants In letting that go M. Stap. that appertayneth to this title and ecclesiasticall iurisdiction ye let go your matter and after your maner make so many impertinent discourses contrarie to that ye called vpon before neuer to swerue from the question in hande and nowe your selfe swerue of purpose from it Howebeit shall we let you go so rounde away with suche a heape of notorious lyes that all good Princes haue euer forgone this title and ecclesiasticall iurisdiction as nothing to them appertayning that not some or many but all good Princes haue forgone and euer forgone both this title and also ecclesiasticall iurisdiction and so euer forgone it as nothing pertayning to them If ye coulde haue shewed this ye should haue well spent your time and kept ye nearer your matter ye néeded not haue fisked about so many by quarels But this could ye not proue and therfore it was necessarie ye should runne to them picking quarels at vs not marking your owne wicked defacing of your Prince whome otherwhiles so fauningly ye flatter For whereto else tendeth this saying all good princes haue euer forgone this tytle and ecclesiasticall iurisdiction as nothing perteyning to them but to inferre that all those princes that take on them or will at any time not forgoe thys title eccl. iurisdiction as apperteyning to them are ill and wicked Princes What else can be made of
be moued from them And neuer so little a motion for M. Feckenham went not ouer farre I warrant you coulde not be made of mercy and consideration without great displeasure taken Ye haue well described the state of your Popes raigne M. Stap. so vnmercyfull an estate and inconsiderate that for description thereof ye doe best as dyd Timantes when he paynted the mourners at the sacrifice of Iphigenia setting out one wéeping another with this another with that heauie visage when he could not deuise a more dolâ—…rous couÌ„tenance he paynted Agamemnon hiding his face with a kerchiefe so you wheÌ„ ye can not sufficiently set foorth those dolefull tymes ye do wisely in that ye omit to expresse them and therein ye expresse them most of all And woulde ye haue lyke mercy and consideration sheshed nowe to the Papistes as the Papistes shewed then to the Protestantes Alas master Stap. if but halfe a quarter of suche extremitie were shewed nowe as was shewed then it woulde goe harder with master Feckenham and other his complices than it dothe No no M. Stap. their chambers their walkes their libertie their ease their fare is nothing like your doÌ„geoÌ„s your stockes your colehouses your famine your racks your gaggs your whipping there rostmeate at a stake that ye gaue the protestants I warrant ye M Fe. lookes not like a ghost nor like a poore scholler of Cambridge or Oxford perchaunce fares better than some studeÌ„ts of diuinitie in Louayne It is easy to discernâ—… M. St. what spirite either religion is of the protestants and the papists euen by this your own note of vnmercifulnesse and mercy and now saith M. St. let vs proceede on to the residue of your booke The fifth Diuision THe Bishop of Winchester after he hath shewed on M. Feckenhams wordes the entent of the Othe and the entent of M. Feckenh booke to be contrarie and therefore what soeuer he offreth in wordes he denieth the same in déedes and in the beginning for ensample dalieth with the Oth about dominions persons thinking therby he escapeth the principall ende of the Othe in this diuision sheweth first how doublie he dealeth in pretending as though the Bishop had forced him to sweare but there was no such Othe offred or required betwéene them â—…rgo A man might well marâ—…aile that he shamed not to pretende such a lie Secondly the Bishop sheweth how M. Feckenham is taken in his owne daliaâ—…ce The Bishops reason is this In that ye graunt to her Highnesse the onely supreme rule ouer the Laye and Ecclesiasticall persons you haue all ready proued withall the causes also euenby a supreme gouernors definition A supreme gouernour or ruler is one who hath to ouerseâ—… guide care prouide order and directe the thinges vnder his gouernment rule to that ende and in those actions which are appointed properly belong to the subiect or thing gouerned But the Queenes Highnesse is by your own coÌ„fession the only supreme gouernour ouer al manner persons Ecclesiasticall c. Ergo Hir highnes hath to ouersee guide care prouide order and direct to that ende and in those actions which are appointed do properly belong to persons Ecclesiasticall And thus concludeth that M. Feckenham grauÌ„ting thus much for fashion sake in generall speache is but a dissembler and in déede denieth the obedience of the person also or els he péeuishly standeth on the distinction of the cause which in full effect he hath graunted alreadie To the first parte M. Stapleton answereth Here is first a worshipfull reason and cause to meruaile at M. Feckenham that he should by writing presently offer him selfe to receyue an Othe bicause he neuer made mention of any suche othe before neither any suche was at any time of him required surely this is as great a cause to wonder as to see a goose go barefoote Ye plainly falsifie the Bishops woordes M. Stapl â–ª he said not that M. Feckenham neuer made mencion of any suche othe before but he saide that he neuer made any motion of such an offer to him So that this declareth both a double dealing of him also a wresting of you But this in eyther of you muste not be wondered at as a rare dealing that in lying and wresting ye be shamelesse bicause it is as common to you as to sée a goose go barefoote and as rare as to heare a barefoote Foxe preach to shod géese in Louaine Secondly to the Bishops argument he saithe But now will he play the worthy Logitian and M. Feckenham will he nill he shal be driuen by fine force of a Logicall definition to graunt the Queene to be supreme head in all causes Ecclesiasticall for that he graunteth hir to be supreme head of all persons both Ecclesiastical and Temporal Bicause saith he the supreme gouernour or ruler is he that ordereth and directeth all actioÌ„s belonging and appointed to the subiectes and thereby enferreth that the Queenes Maiestie is supreme and onely gouernour eueÌ„ in those actions that belong to Ecclesiasticall persons which are causes Ecclesiasticall But as good skill as this man hath in Logike which is correspondent to his diuinitie he hath brought vs forth a faultie and a vitiouse definition For a supreme gouernour is he that hath the chiefe gouernment of the thing gouerned not in those actions that may any way properly belong to the subiect or thing gouerned as M. Horne saithe but in those actions that belong to the ende whereunto the gouernour tendeth VVhich may well be although he haue not the chiefe gouernment in all the actions of the thing gouerned but in such actions as properly appertaine to him as a subiect to that gouernour Although M. Stapl. arguments hitherto haue shewed some tast of his owne great skill in Logike and what a worthie student of Diuinitie he is him selfe the want of which two he vpbraydeth to the Bishop after his prowde scornefull manner yet in this his couÌ„terblast to the Bishops only reason of a supreme gouernours definition he wil further shew what a passing subtile Logitian déepe Deuine he is But alas the mans ill lucke for while he clerkly laboreth striues to bring M. Feckâ—…ham out of the briers he not only wrappeth him the faster in them but so snarleth entangleth him selfe withall that as one all amased he speaketh he wottes not what And goyng about the Bushe wonderfully to worke when he hath all done he hath not onely left the matter where it was against M. Feckenham but hath made it more playne against him selfe also First he reprehendeth the Bishops definition of a gouernour as faultie but his guiltie conscience was so striken that he durst not or he well wist not how to report the definition as it laie but saith that the Bishop defined A supreme gouernour to be one that ordreth and directeth all actions belonging and appoynted to the subiecte Which the B. said not but M. St. who hath altered hacked and
spirituall Churche so on thys principle you gather a moste false assumption That the heads of this spiritual or mystical body the church of Christ are vicars parsons byshops archbyshops patriarkes and ouer them all the Pope In which assumption ye take for true grauÌ„ted sundry manyfest errors flatly of vs denied chiefly foure The first about the spirituall and mysticall body of christ Wherin ye shew great vnskill not knowing what is ment by the spiritual mystical body For in that respect as there are no ciuil princes emperours kings or quéenes so there ar no Bishops neither no not Greke nor Scythian Gentile nor Iew neither male nor female but all the elect that haue bene are or shall be either in heauen aboue or here dispersed in any parte of the earth without any respect of person are al members and Christ the only head And so M. St. your selfe also call it the kingdome of the faythfull so that if any bishop be vnfaithful he is so far from beeing a head in this misticall corporation that he is no member or any part therof And your selfe confessed before that now theÌ„ your Pope was no good maÌ„ neither therfore vnfaithful hauing not the true liuely effectual faith in Christ as they only haue that be meÌ„bers of this body wherby he is quite excluded froÌ„ it Your first error therfore is in not discerning betwéene the inuisible and visible estate of the Church Secondly taking it as after contrarie to your former sayings ye seeme to expounde it to be the visible estate of the church saying coÌ„moÌ„ly called Christes catholike church then erre ye in that ye say vicars parsons bishops archbyshops and popes be rulers and heades of it For excepting parsons taking them for pastors Bishops the scripture knoweth none of thâ—…se rulers The other titles haue come in since with deanes archâ—…eacoÌ„s abbots priors cardinals patriarches c. although I speake not against the names of theÌ„ no not of the name of Pope neither which béeing well vsed I reueriÌ„ce admit but against the Popish hierarchie proud abuse of them And therfore thirdly where ye say the Pope is ouer them all that he is so ouer all those degrées in your Churche I graunte ye but that he is so ouer those or any other degrées in the true visible Churche of Christ it is but your facing maner to take that for confessed that is chiefly denyed Fourthly that ye affirme the Pope and his Prelates gouernemente chiefly to serue for the furtheraunce and encrease of the Spirituall kyngdome of Chryst where it is euident to the contrarie what hauocke and decrease so muche as they can these Rulers make of the members of Christes Churche to maynteine infidelitie and exautorate the worde and kingdome of Christ thereby M. Stap. now presupposing that the christian Princes gouernement is only outward and for the body and coÌ„mon with the heathen and stretcheth no further and that on the other parte the Pope ouer al and his fleshly chaplens vnder him are the heades and meÌ„bers of the spiritual and mysticall body of Christ nowe he will proue and God before that this gouernement of the pope his chaplaines is far aboue the kings gouernement and that kings he subiect therto Now sayth he as the soule of man incomparably passeth the body so doth this kingdome the other and the rulers of these the rulers of the other And as the body is subiecte to the soule so is the ciuill kingdome to the spirituall His reason is thus The soule or spirite incomparably passeth the body The kings gouernement is onely for the body and the Priests gouernement onely is for the soule and spirite Ergo the Priestes gouernement incomparably passeth the Kinges As this argument is noughte so the conclusion béeing rightly vnderstoode dothe noughte infirme the Princes supreme gouernement ouer all ecclesi causes For thoughe the maior be true the minor is moste false that the kinges gouernement is onely for the body Yea though the spirituall gouernement be onely the Priestes yet the gouernement ouer spirituall matters and matters apperteyning to the soule may still for all that and dothe belong euen ouer the Priests to the Prince Neither dothe M. St. proue the coÌ„trarie or alledge ought for his minor than as we haue heard the foresaide principles of limiting the Princes gouernement to be all one with the Turkes But you might haue done well M. Stap. to haue eâ—…sed your paynes euen here and haue troubled your selfe no further to proue your matter if these your vaine presupposals be such true and vndoubted principles But as though we had alredy graunted them M. St. still goeth on To the which kingdome sayth he as well Princes as other are engrafted by baptisme and become subiects to the same by spirituall generation as we become subiectes to our princes by course and order of natiuitie which is a terrestrial generation The argument is thus As the childe that is borne by a terrestriall generation in the earthly Princes kingdome is subiect to the earthly Prince so euen the Prince being borne againe by spirituall generation is become subiect to the spirituall kingdome But the rulers of the spirituall kingdom are the pope c. Ergo the Prince is become subiect to them Thus fondly still ye reason on your principle in so much that we can say nothing agaynst you But nowe while ye thinke ye may say what ye will sodenly see how ye haue ouerturned these your mightie principles with a trippe of your owne contrarie sayings euen in the same place Furthermore say you as euery man is naturally bounde to defende mainteyne encrease adorne â–ª and amplifie his naturall countrey so is euery man bounde and much more to employ himselfe to his possibilitie towarde the mition and defence furtheranee and amplification of this spiritual kingdome and most of all the princes themselues As such which haue receyued of God more large helpe and facultie toward the same by reason of their great authoritie and temporall sworde to ioyne the same as case requireth with the spirituall sworde Thinke ye this to be true indéede M. St. may we trust you on your wordes then is religion an ende of the Princes gouernment which a little before ye not onely most vntruly denyed but buylded as ye thought iolye arguments therevpon All whiche come nowe downe of themselues with an heaue and hee your selfe pulling awaye the soundation wherevppon they were buylt And nowe ye make an other platforme contrarie to the former which is that Princes moste of all are bounde as those that haue receyued of God more large helpe and facultie towarde the same to employ them selues to their possibilities to these endes to defende mainteyne encrease adorne and amplifie not onely the ciuill peace and prosperitie but much more the spirituall kingdome And ioyne the temporall sworde with the spirituall sworde as the case requireth Upon this as a better platforme than the
for so your booke will growe to a welfauoured volume The outcrie is here for a contradiction But ye should first cléere your selfe of your own foule contradictions before committed and then obiect contradiction to the Bishop But let vs sée what a sore contradiction it is Princes can not do certaine Ecclesiasticall actions Princes are supreme gouernours in Ecclesiasticall causes Here M. St. ye labour to shew where the Bishop saith so but ye should labour to proue them coÌ„tradictionâ—… but that ye take for manifest being manifest false Neither néede there any colour to defende these sayings from contradiction for it was euen the last thing that your selfe defended in putting a difference betwene a principal gouernment of matters and that gouernment that is exercised in doyng the actions of those matters And thus easily your self reconcile this great contradiction and aâ—…were your owne argument that ye make of the Bishop sayings reasoning thus He confesseth that those actions do not belong to the persons of Princes Ergo he confesseth that Princes are not supreme gouernours to direct and ouersee them This argument your owne distinction answereth And therefore where ye lappe vp the matter saying Thus ye see M. Horne walketh like a bare footed man vpon thornes not knowing where to treade ye should remember your selfe M. Stap. that you haue walked all this while like your barefooted goose that ye spoke of before not knowing what last ye creaked The sixth Diuision MAster Feckenham offreth to sweare to obserue and performe that obedience to the Queenes hignesse now that he did before vnto Queene Mary The Bishop sheweth how therein he was forsworne as he had helped to spoyle Q. Mary of a principall parte of hir royall power so would he with no lesse disloyaltie spoile the Queenes Maiestie now M. Stapl. taking after his fashion Non concedenda pro concessis saith the othe is vnlawfull likeneth it to wicked King Herodes othe denieth this gouernment to be any part at all of the Queenes royall power and auoucheth that if the Bishop can once by any meanes proue this gouernment to be a principall parte or any parte at all of the Queenes royall power he dare vndertake that not only M. Fek. but many mo that now refuse shall most gladly take the saide othe he were surely no good subiect that would wish hir highnes any wroÌ„g To wishe wrong to any body is naught in déede M. St. worse to do it but worst of al to wish and do it against your liege and soneraigne What wrong ye wishe and do by all trecherous practises vnto the Q. Maiestie is apparant and therefore your owne iudgement be on your owne head Ye liken hir highnesse to wicked King Herode euen here present yet ye say ye wishe hir no wrong But what reasons should moue ye M. St. to thinke this open wroÌ„g no wrong Neyther can say you the maintenance of the Catholike faith wherof she beareth a title of a defender be counted any iniurie to hir highnesse neither is it to be thought but if there had bene any wrong or iniurie herein done to the Crowne some Christian Prince or other in the worlde haue ere this once in this 1000. yeres more espied it and reformed it to This later argument of former Princes is answered aâ—… large alreadie The other argument standeth on M. Stap. former presupposall that the Popes supreinacie is the Catholike faith His reason is this The maintenance of the Catholike faith is no iniurie to the Queenes Highnesse But our refusall of the othe is the maintenance of the Catholike faith Ergo our refusall of the othe is no iniurie to the Q. Highnes Here where M. St. should proue the Minor being manifest false he letteth that go presupposing it is most true and confirmeth the Maior which none denieth She beareth a Title of defender of the Catholike faith Ergo The maintenance of the Catholike faith is no iniurie to â—…ir highnesse Of this Title we spake also before onely now I note his argument that here couertly he séemeth to make thereon The Qu. highnesse Title calleth hir defender of the faith Ergo If she should also haue the Title of supreme gouernour in all causes Ecclesiasticall then were the former Title iniurie to hir highnesse But the former Title of defender of the faith can not be counted any iniurie to hir highnesse Ergo She can not haue the other Title also This bald reason standeth vpon a presupposal in M. St. head that this is a principall article of the Faith. The Pope is onely head of the Catholike church But graunt not M. St. this his faithlesse principle and he wil proue but a sielie Defender of this His simple reason The seuenth Diuision MAster Feck pretending that he was by the Bishop required prouoked to sweare refuseth that parte of the Othe that toucheth the Quéenes supremacie in the causes Ecclesiasticall vnlesse the Bishop shew him the meanes how he may sweare without periurie The Bishops answere stands on two points the one to detect his false dealing to pretende that the Bishop required the othe The other that this his refusall of the later parte of the Othe is but his nice daliance in woords hauing graunted alreadie the matter in effect The B. reasoneth thus Euery Ecclesiasticall person is called Ecclesiasticall onely in respect of ecclesiastical functions things and causes belonging to ecclesiasticall persons But ye haue graunted that the Queenes highnesse is supreme gouernour ouer al persons in hir realmes so well ecclesiasticall as temporall Ergo ye haue graunted that she is the supreme gouernour ouer them in those their ecclesiasticall functions things and causes also M. Stapletons counterblast is thréefold the first against the Bishops argument The seconde as he calleth it is an heape of vntruthes wherewith M. Feckenham is falsly charged The thirde his shamefull sclaunders that the plague was sent of God to punish the doings of the Parliament that bicause the Bishop required the Othe of D. Bonner he therfore sought his bloud That our Bishops were no Churche Bishops nor parliament Bishops neither But these too friuolous partes I omitte it sufficeth to haue quoted the slannders in their common place As for the vntruthes are answered in their proper bedroll I will answere onely now that which is materiall and that counterblasteth the argument Yet once againe saith M. St. M. Horne taketh in hande M. Feckenhams graunt which may well be graunted and by â–ª his great cunning and skilfulnesse will thereof inferre as before that may not be graunted But now he spitteth in his hande and taketh faster holde as he thinketh and seing the lightnesse of his former reason woulde nowe giue greater weight to it with a new fetche but yet as light and as weake as the other and employing manifest contradiction as before and to be answered as before For albeit a man is not called an Ecclesiasticall person but
name of person ecclesiasticall hath no other respect but to the causes ecclesiasticall and being gouerned or subiect as M. Feckenham hath graunted in respecte of eyther parte of this diuision temporall or ecclesiasticall if fellowes that in all respectes what soeuer of causes or persons ecclesiasticall or temporall the Prince is supreme gouernour Nor all M. Stapl. crooked shiftes and crabbed respects to hinder the sequele of this argumeÌ„t are any more to be respected than â—…ere trifles and toyes to delude the Readers withall But M. St. will not giue ouer the matter thus but will bring his darke respects to the aspect and light of all mens eyes by a familiar though somwhat an homely simâ—… As if master Robert Horne were a lay man and a paynter sayth he the Queene properly hath not to do with him as a paynter vnlesse it were for some lavve or order concerning paynters but as Robert Horne hir highnesse subiect and borne vnder hir obeysance Sée how enuye hath blynded this man that whereas for very spite he likeneth the reuerent and godly learned father in Christ to a paynter this his paynted similitude maketh also flat agaynst him For as he confesseth the Prince hath to doe vvith a paynter not onely in that he is simply hir highnesse subiecte borne vnder hir obeysance but also in respect he is suche a subiecte in whiche regarde he saythe she maketh lavves and orders also concerning paynters thoughe she entermeddle not with the Paynters pencell in drawing lynes and laying colours and other their perticuler actions euen so hath hir highnesse to do with all ecclesiasticall persons not onely in that they be simply subiectes borne vnder hir obeysance but also euen in that they be suche manner of ecclesiasticall subiects in which respect she may also make lawes and orders concerning ecclesiastical persons though she entermeddle not with preaching ministring the sacramentes and other their particuler actions Thus as God would haue it doth your owne similitude M. Stap. which of pure enuye ye bring foorth to deface the byshop withall so liuely in euery poynt make agaynst you as any similitude can do At length ye discende from your similitude to your playne purpose saying So shoulde the Queene haue also to doe with you yea in case ye were the true Byshop of VVinchester but not properly as Byshop or for your byshoply function for the whiche ye are immediatly vnder your Archbyshop and the Pope but considering you as a subiecte othervvyse or as Byshop either touching your temporalties and no further For the which the true Byshops also to their Prince do their homage With muche adoe for it sticketh in your throte lyke a boane ye admitte at length this case that the Bishop were the true Byshop of VVinchester but without any stay at the matter ye could compare him to a paynter but now beeing a Bishop he is as you say vnder his Archbishop and the Pope and vnder the Queene onely for his temporalties Here is no argument M. Stapleton but your bare assertions as though the matter were cleare and all out of question I ye had still reasoned from the similitude of the paynter and paynted it out in his true meaning ye had concluded another maner of tale that as the Prince mighte meddle euen with lawes and orders for paynters so she hath to do with Byshops not onely concerning their temporalties but euen coÌ„cerning that they be Byshops And so agayn your similitude excludeth your Pope And where ye say in that he is byshop he is immediatly vnder his Archbyshop and the Pope what if his Archbishop be not vnder the Pope neither is he not then also béeing immediatly vnder him exempted likewise from your Pope and thus ye stammer euen in your owne false principles Now when ye haue thus without any reasoning determined the Byshop to be vnder the Pope and that he dothe homage to the Quéene onely for his temporalties and no farther ye conclude the matter saying But what should I further reason with this man vvhiche as I haue sayde hathe remoued the Prince from all superioritie concerning the meere Byshoply or Priestly function and so with a notable contradiction hathe full vvorshipfully concluded agaynst hym selfe and eased hys aduersarie of any other proofe and eased master Feckenham also for taking any othe that the Queene is supreme head in all causes temporall and spirituall This notable contradiction is so sore a matter that you muste néedes haue a fling at it once agayne the contradiction is this The Prince hath not the iurisdiction of the meere Priestly or Byshoply functions The Prince hath the superioritie ouer the priestly or Byshoply functions Is not héere a notable contradiction and worthy to make thys finall conclusion thereon The Prince hathe not the iurisdiction of the meere Priestly or Byshoply functions Ergo He is remoued from all superioritie ouer the same functions Full vvorshipfully concluded to vse your owne termes master Stapleton What should ye reason further with this man but in steade of reasoning fall to making principles or sit downe and ease you with master Feckenham without any further proofe But mighte it please you to starte vp agayne and looke better aboute ye ye shoulde sée that betwéene euen that superioritie which worde notwithstanding the Byshop sayde not but power or iurisdiction of the meere byshoply or priestly function that is to saye his office and the proper actions of his office preaching binding and losing the ministring of the Sacramentes and betwéene the superioritie that is the ouersight and supreme gouernement in caring for directing and prouiding that all those functions and actions be duetifully done on their partes to whome they properly belong there is a great difference as all your similitudes hitherto haue proued and concluded agaynst you And that betwéene the dooing of the one and the not dooing of the other is no contradiction or opposition at all And therefore ye be not so eased yet but that ye muste take a little more paynes or else where ye had thought to haue wonne the spurres ye may happe to lose the saddle The eight Diuision MAster Feckenham standeth on foure poyntes whereby he thinketh he should periure himselfe if he should sweare to this laste parte of the othe in eccl. causes The first point is that he muste testifie it on a booke othe But to testifie any thing on a booke othe and not to knovve the same is periurie Then for him selfe he pleadeth ignoraunce that he neither knovveth it nor knovves any meanes hovv to come to the knovvledge of it Whervpon he ioyneth an issue with the Byshoppe which issue is this If the Byshop make proofe to him that any Emperour or Empresse King or Queene may clay me or take vpon them any suche gouernement in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes then he will yéelde and receiue the othe The meanes whereby he will haue this issue proued are these foure Either by suche order of gouernement
as our sauiour Christ hath lefte behinde him in his Gospell and nevve Testament Either by the vvritinges of suche learned doctors bothe olde and nevve vvhich haue from age to age vvitnessed the order of eeclesiasticall gouernement in Christes Church Either by the generall councels vvherin the right order of ecclesiasticall gouernement in Christes Churche hath bene moste faythfully declared and shevved from time to time Or else by the continuall practise of the like ecclesiasticall gouernement in some one Church or parte of all Christendome By these foure meanes this issue aforesaide as the state of the controuersie betwéene bothe parties must be tryed That by any of these foure meanes proofe be made to him That anie Emperour or Empresse King or Queene may claime or take vpō them anie such gouernment in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes This requireth master Feckenham to be prored The satisfaction whereof to be proued by the Bishop is this That by some of these foure meanes proufe may be made to him that some Emperour Empresse King or Queene may clayme or take vppon them some such gouernment in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes If the B. shall be founde to haue proued thus much to M. Feck he hath fully satisfyed his request and M. Feckenham according to his promise ought to sweare with humble thankes notwithstanding master Sapletons quarelling Counterblast The Bishop reducing M. Feckenhams first poynt to a forme of argument repeateth it No man may restifie any thing by a booke oth whereof he is ignorant and knoweth nothing without committing manifest periurie But you neyther knowe that the Queenes highnesse is the onely supreme gouernour of this Realme as well in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall things or causes as temporall neither yet know ye anye waye or meane whereby to haue anye knowledge thereof Ergo ye cannot testifie the same on a boke oth without manifest periurie To this the B. replieth that although he might flatly denie the minor that M. Feck is not without all knowledge and vtterly ignorant of the matter nor destitute of al meanes to attaine therto yet he sayth he wil answere by distinction of ignorance to shew how M. Feck is ignorāt how he is not He alleageth a thréefold deuision of ignorance out of Thomas of Aquine the chiefe of the Popish scholemen ▪ Ignorance of simplicitie Ignorāce of wilfulnes and ignorance of malice Prouing that he is not ignorant of the first sort hauing in king Henries and king Edwards reignes continually knowne acknowledged confessed it and therfore his ignorance is either of wilfulnesse or of malice or of both of them M. St. Counterblast standeth chiefly on thrée matters first his answere to Thom. distinction with an obiecting againe to the B. the opinion of Tho. in this cōtrouersie Secondly a quarrelling chalenging of the B. for vntruthes Thirdly an excuse of master Feckenham for setting forth this supremacie With a quarell ioyned thereto that the B. citing a sentence out of the booke of wisdome called it a sentence of the holy ghost concluding thereon a discorde of our doctrine But or euer he enter into his first part he noteth this for a generall warning before Now are maister Feckenham and master Horne come to couple and ioyne togither in the principall matter If this forewarning be true M. St. that this their coupling and ioyning togither on this issue to wete whether any princes haue takē any such gouernmēt on them be nowe by your confession the principall matter controuersed betweene the partyes standing in variaunce whiche as ye sayde before is conuenient and necessarie to haue before our eyes and then deligently to see howe the proufes are of eche partie applied for the confirming of their assertions Then all those sixe principles whiche ye sette vp before your Counterblast as markes to fixe the eye of the Reader vppon were but false markes and not the principall matter wherein the parties coupled them selues togither to proue or improue the same Then were almost all that hitherto M. Stap. hath sayde as the Reader marking this well shall sée and the most of that which he hath to say in this great Counterblast nothing else but a running about the Bushe and wresting of euerye thing from the principall matter in which they ioyned to some other matters wherein they coupled not Whiche is plaine to beguile and abuse not rightly to direct the eye of the Reader as the Reader fixing his eye on thys issue shall soone espie your falsehoode This issue then being the principall matter as ye say and the Bishop coupling and ioyning herein togither with master Feckenham as ye also say and the Bishop hauing proued that which he endeuoured himselfe to proue which ye likewise haue confessed what remayneth by your owne tale telling but that the Bishop hath fully proued the principall matter in question Neither will you as you say nor any other Catholikes greatly contend with him for that he hath proued and he hath proued that that he laboured in he laboured in that he coupled he coupled in this issue thys issue is the principall matter betwéene them whie then do ye so fiersely contende but that ye woulde shewe your selfe a vaine sophisticall and brabling quarrellour that haue no great cause to contende nor anye cause at all and yet will so greatly contende onely of wylfull malice confessing your selfe the thing to be proued that is the principall matter Master Stap. hauing giuen this forewarning commeth to his first part which he deuideth thréefold First he iesteth out the matter with scoffes which I referre to his common place thereon Secondly he denieth master Feckenham to haue any ignorance in this poynt except it were inuincible ignorance by no study or diligence able to be put away and therfore pardonable Since ye admit the distinction M. Stap. ye bring out of time your other inuincible ignorance How pardonable it is is another question But sée how ignorantly while ye would defende M. Fec you ouerthwart him he pleadeth ignorance for his defence and you say he is not ignorant and woulde put the B. to proue that he should be ignorant of wilfulnesse and malice which the B. hath done alreadie and so ye debarre M. Feckēham of his refuge and make him to haue knowledge of this poynt Which not only he himself denieth but which your selfe afterwards denie also yea that he could not haue knowledge of this poynt But you thinke to escape cleare with helping the matter by a newe pertition of ignorance adding a fourth part of inuincible ignorance Surely say you if there were any ignorance in this point it were such as S. Tho. and other call inuincible ignorance Except M. St. ye confound this fourth ignorance with one of the thrée before named ye quite exclude M. Fec from the whole distinction of Thomas and yet ye say the distinction may be true ye will not stick with him for that distinction So that eyther ye
as to receyue it what soeuer hath not his authoritie out of the Scriptures And what so-euer wee finde not in the Scriptures we may vse them euen as we list our selues Why may we not say as S. Augustine saide Quia Canonicum non â—…st non me astringit Bicause it is not the Canonicall Scripture it bindeth me not to beleue or receyue it but of this matter furder as ye giue furder occasion Thirdly your argument of proportion from a Parliament to London fayleth standing on your olde and vayue presupposals that we haue graunted or must graunt you that your Popish Church is the true Churche That Christian realmes haue the same respect to your Popish church that a Citie in any Realme hath to the whole estate of the same Realme and againe that your Popes violent Councels are as frée lawfull and generall and enact onely as Godly decrées and constitutions to the directing of the true Churche as the Parliaments of a realme be frée lawfull and generall and enact godly lawes and constitutions for their policies and estates All these things beyng nothing proportionable we must graunt you to be true and fitte or else this your argument and your former crake neyther barell better herring may go togither a Gods name The rest of your counter blast to this diuision as it is nothing materiall so it is eyther altogither wordes of course or else a petit quarell that ye lappe vp all the matter withall bicause the Bishop called this sentence a sentence of the Holy Ghost In maleâ—…lam animam non 〈◊〉 sapientia VVisedome shall not enter into a frowarde soule which bicause it is mere impertiuent and friuolous I haue reiected it to your common places Discorde on our doctrine can ye gather none thereon but you would faine sowe discorde where none is and yet ye boast of vnitie But if ye remembered setting all other discordes aside how well as is afore sayd your Sorbonists and your Louanists and you Thomas Stapleton agrée euen with your owne swéete S. Thomas of Aquine and how your tale agreeth with it selfe how it excuseth and accuseth M. Feckenham ye should then sée who they be that as ye say in place of vniforme tuning ruffle vs vp a blacke Sanctus who they be that chaunging their shapes like Proteus haue so often altred their religion and whether they touch M. Feckenham and you or any of your chiefe Masters yea or no. The ninth Diuision THe Bishop hauing by Thomas his distinction of ignorance answered M. Feckenhams argument descendeth to cope with M. Feckenham in his issue and to proue the same by all the sayd meanes that he requireth And first to the issue whiche was That any Emperour or Empresse King or Queene may claime or take vpoÌ„ them any suche gouernment in spirituall or Ecclesiasticall causes The Bishop answereth that they ought to take such gouernment Ergo they may lawfully do it For his antecedeÌ„t that they ought he referreth to the foure meanes of the issue that M. Feckenham would haue it tried by M. Stapl. picking by quarels of other pretended answers made by the Bishop before falsely surmising that he then denied or mollified the woordes of the othe and that now he answereth without any molliâ—…iyng or restiaint that the Queene ought to take vpon hir such kinde of regiment these answeres he calleth so â—…arring variable diuerse and so contrary the one to the other that if the one be true the other must be false and so concludes they be false and deceiueable both of them But M. St. this is a false and a deceiuable point of your owne deuising from the which I perceyue by the tenour of your whole counterblast ye will neuer iarre nor varie one iote except God sende you hereafter better grace and iudgement than thus still to ground your self and your writings on manifest lies and forgeries and then presuppose them in your nodâ—…le for manifest principles and truthes Thus do ye all your booke ouer so ye play here First ye ground your selfe on a forged answere that the Bishop should before haue made imagining it must néedes be true bicause you say ye certainly vnderstande that M. Feckenham hath so reported to some of his friendes that the Bishop made then another resolute answere This is all that ye all age for proofe of it ye haue it but by heare say at the hande of some partiall tale bearer some tolde you that M. Feckenham told some that the Bishop tolde him that this was his resolute answere and you beleue it for a certentie and write it solemnly in your booke to deface the Bishop as it were with doubble and contrary answering your selfe in the meane season answering nothing to the argument nor to the Bishops present and printed answere And therfore I neede returne no other answere to you than that one tolde me that another told him that he told you that ye were to light of credence to beleue euery flimme flamme tale and to rash of Iudgement to clap downe such tales in your booke of whiche ye had no better proufe than that all the worlde should see claw me claw thee two false marchants néede no broker they say The tenth Diuision THe Bishop entring into his proufes of the issue that Princes ought to take vpoÌ„ them such gouernment in Ecclesiasticall causes as the Queenes Maiestie doth chalenge and take vppon hit among other properties belonging to the Princely office to beginne with all auoucheth out of Deut. the 17. and the 13. with some expositoures vpon the same that the Prince is commaunded to haue by him the booke of the lawe to reade in it diligently to this ende that he himselfe may learne the feare of God and cause his subiects to become Israelites by his princely authoritie redressing the peruersnesse of such aâ—… swerue from the ordinances and ceremonies appointed of god The which beyng true the conclusion consequently followeth thereuppon M. St. answere to this argument resteth on foure faults that he findeth with the Antecedent which he calleth vntruthes so reckoneth them vp also in his score but bicause they are the principall materiall pointes whereon his answere dependes I thought it more fitte to note them here But first after his scoffing craking maner he saith to the Bishop Go on I saie in Gods name M. Horne and prosecute your plea stoutly God sende you good speede And so he doth eueÌ„ such as ye the honestie of your cause deserue c. But all these his fromps and vaunts I ouerpasse and referre them to his common places and will onely answere to that which he chargeth the Bishop withall which is no lesse than infidelitie and vnskilfulnesse And to beginne with the later bicause he saith it is the least matter and noteâ—…h it for the former vntruth Your vnskilfulnesse saith he whiche is the least matter standeth in that ye say the King is commaunded to haue by him
whiche commeth after also and yet your selfe so flatly belye the Scripture for malice to the byshop in saying suche wordes that the byshop lefte out do followe which neither followe at all and your selfe before confessed they went immediatly before Sée see howe enuie hath blinded this mans sighte Lesse maruell it is that ye sawe not the period for although those wordes whiche ye cite as lefte oute taking a copie of the Priest and the Leuiticall tribe â—…e wordes going before the bishops sentence and he shall haue by him c. yet is there a ful period betweene them which you saw not or would not sée so that those former words are no materiall part of the sentence following cited by the byshop but a material part of the senteÌ„ce going before which the byshop cited not But M. St. citeth falsly threapeth that the bishop did cite it and in citing it lefte out a materiall parte thereof charging the byshop in these wordes after suche order as your owne text appoynteth â–ª saying VVhen he is set vpon the seate of hys kingdome he shal write him out this second law in a booke taking a copie of the Priestes of the Leuiticall tribe VVhich latter wordes ye haue bicause they make directly agaynst you quite lefte out Why M. Stap. he left out bothe the latter middle first wordes and all of this sentence he mentioned it not at all ye doe but threapen kindnesse on him to fasten withall vpon him your chalenge of infidelitie Onely he alleaged the nexte sentence and that expounding it so fully that he leaueth oute neither former latter or any materiall poynte at all thereof .. And thus muche doth your selfe also witnesse agaynst your selfe saying that he lefte oâ—…t vvordes that immediatly goe before the vvordes vvhich he alleadged And what were those he shall haue by him c. This then was the texte that he alleaged by your owne confession And therfore when ye vrge him with the former texte that he alleaged not to proue infidelitie in him ye contrarie your selfe ye cleare him ye shewe your owne excéeding vnfaythfull dealing bothe to the scripture and to him also But wherefore should the Byshop haue left out as ye charge him any materiall parte of his texte bycause say you it maketh directly agaynst him In déede that were a shrewde cause and would iolily cloke M. St. infidelitie and cause men to suspect infidelitie in the bishop if he had concealed any thing in his text that directly made against him Which infidelitie who vseth and who approueth it for the poynt of a wise man to conceale that that maketh agaynst him shal after wel appeare But now although it be plainly proued that the byshop in his text left out no part therof Yet for further tryall of this also let vs take not onely the latter wordes of the next period going before which words he complayneth are lefte out but euery worde also of the same sentence concluding two or thrée periodes vnder one bicause we would haue nothing left out and ioyne them to the sentence following cited by the byshop and then behold what maner of conclusion either directly or indirectly they make agaynst him Wherin shall appeare that M. St. hath so besotted himselfe in diuinitie that he had quite forget the logike that so ofte he crakes vpon These textes are these VVhen he is set on the seate of his kingdome he shall write for him selfe out of this seconde law in a booke taking a copy of the Priests of the Leuiticall tribe And he shall haue it with him and he shall reade of it all the dayes of his life that he may learne to feare the Lorde his God and keepe all the wordes and ceremonies that are written in the lawe Upon these words M. St. frameth his argument The king shal write out this second law in a booke taking a copy of the Priestes of the Leuiticall tribe Ergo a king ought not to take vpon him suche gouernement in ecclesiasticall causes as the Quéenes maiestie doth chalenge and take vpon hir For this is the conclusion that directly maketh agaynst the bishop but as herein his logike is altogither vnskilfull so is his diuinitie yet more vnfaithfull For hauing chalenged the bishop for leauing out these words taking a copie of the priests of the Leuiticall trybe as directly against him and theÌ„ immediately foloweth sayth he how he shall busily reade the sayde booke and so foorth In which words he maketh another toto manifest lie falsifying the text yet once againe For these words Et habebit secâ—… he shal haue with him which word he leaueth quite out go betwéene therfore followe not as he sayth immediatly But sée héere whether it be of malice to the byshop or to the Scripture that all this while in quarelling with this little poore text habebit secum he shall haue with him he findeth fault with translating he accuseth the byshop of infidelitie and vnskilfulnesse he complaineth of leauing out wordes going immediatly before of curtalling the texte and leauing out latter wordes of leauing out a material part of words following immediatly he citeth and reciteth these and those wordes in Latin and Englishe he scanneth and descanteth on translations and all this while those onely three wordes habebit secum which the byshop alleaged wrinching and wresting he euer glaunceth by them he will not once name them but leaueth them quite out which was the materiall thing that the byshop alleaged And yet all the while he whineth of leauing oute and leaueth oute him selfe that he should chiefly answere What shall we thinke is the cause that he dothe thus surely there is some force in those wordes that he sawe were more directly against him or else he would neuer do so for very shame But I remember a tale that he hath patched vp into his counterblast of the Simoniacall Priest that béeing commaunded to say In nomine patris filij spiritus sanctâ—… could rehearse all well inough till he came to spiritus sancti as for that he could not pronounce it in any maner of wise But sée your chance M. Stap. that ye there fabled howe here your selfe haue playde the like part The byshop vrgeth you with thrée wordes habebit secum â–ª ye will not onely answere nothing thereto but ye will not in any wise whyle ye repeate the sentences so muche as name those wordes and yet ye goe rounde about them On the other side those wordes that the bishop cited not as no parte of his sentence alleaged Lorde what a doe ye make of curtalling of leauing out of infidelitie vnskilfulnesse peruersitie malice and I can not tell what Onely bicause ye thinke those wordes séeme to make for your massing Priests authoritie bicause they name Priests and yet God wot they make nothing for you nor agaynst the byshop directly or indirectly But you thinke this sentence maketh thus much for your priestes that if the
ye alleage that the king as soone as he is chosen shall bestowe his studie vppon the reading of the Deuteronomie VVhere Moses sayth that in doubtfull causes the people shoulde haue their recourse to the sayde Priestes and to the iudge for the time being meaning the highe Priest of whome they shoulde learne the truth and are commaunded to doe accordingly euen vnder paine of death All this ye say the Bishop wilily and sleightly slipt ouer and yet in the verie sayde Chapter it was euen the next to that he alleaged Alacke master Stapleton that euer yée should for shame haue thus ouerslipt your selfe Were ye not halfe a sléepe when ye made this slippe For I will not recharge you so harde wyth wylinesse and sleight but with palpable grosnesse and marueylous negligent ignoraunce in a student of diuinitie to beate so much vppon a text as you doe here charging your aduersarie wyth wylinesse sleight vnfaythfulnesse vnskilfulnesse leauing out curtalling and ouerslipping and your selfe shewe so little skil or regarde in citing your text that eyther ye know not or ye care not what commeth before what commeth after what commeth next what commeth not next nor nere it Ye saye that the sentence of the Priestes and the Iudges iudgements on doubtfull cases commeth euen the next to that the Bishop alleaged in the verie sayde Chapter Turne your booke to the Chapter once againe M. Stap. reade the wordes that come next yea all the wordes that follow in that Chapter Nor his heart shall be lifted vp in pride aboue his brethren neyther shall he turne to the right hande or to the left that both he and his childe may raigne long time ouer Israell Doth not this follow next and is not this the last sentence of the sayde Chapter Then if it be in that verie Chapter it commeth not as you say next vnto it but must néedes go before and so doth it Neyther yet the next before for there commeth betwene them fiue or six periods at the least And as they are two diuerse places so are they two sundrie matters Ye charge therefore the Bishop amisse with wilie and sleight ouerslipping where nothing is ouerslipped though the former sentence be not alleaged And ye falsely ioyne them togither saying The King shall bestow his studie vpon the reading of the Deuteronomie where Moyses sayth that in doubtfull causes c. When as Moses there sayth not so Ye falsely say it commeth next to it which it doth not but goeth before in another matter and diuerse sentences betwene What a foule ouerslippe was this of you that could prie so narrowly to séeke a slippe ouer a slipper in anothers footing where was not so muche as any tripping awrie and your selfe vnawares haue slipt into a foule lie ouer the sloppes and all But if we let slippe this as but a grosse ouerslippe yet maye we not so let slip M. Stapletons slipperie and false exposition for all he sayeth that their priestes can not expounde the scripture amisse For where the text sayth the people sholde haue their recourse to the priestes and to the iudge for the time beeing meaning sayth M. Stapleton the high priest In déede so doth his popishe glosse interline it and yet euen Lyra that woulde shift of the matter as much as he might for his Pope with his morall or rather marre all gloses hereon both noteth in his margin that these be twaine summâ—… sacerdos iudex the high Priest and the Iudge And sayth in his casibus c. In these and the like cases they must runne vnto the higher Iudges that is to say â–ª to the high Priest and to the chiefe Iudge of Israell And althoughe sometime it chaunced that one person had both these offices as appeareth by Hely who was both chiefe Iudge and chiefe Priest yet for the most part as they are distinct offices so were they commonly in distinct and seuerall persons And to proue this further by the penaltie which as you say was vnder the paine of death the which iudgement apperteyned to the Iudge but ordinarily it was not lawfull for the high priestes to iudge any man to death as euen the wicked priestes to cloke their murther when Pilate sayde vnto them Accipite eum vos c. Take you him and iudge him according to your law coulde replie like to the papisticall Priestes that post of the bodyes death to the temporall power Nobis non licet quemque interficere It is not lawfull for vs to kill any man but the Iudge that this place speaketh of should ordinarily condemne to death the refuser Ex indicis decreto moriatur homo ille Let that man die by the iudges decree Ergo he meaneth not that this ordinarie Iudge shoulde be the high priest Besides this the very text is plaine in making this distinction to the Priestes and to the Iudge not to the Iudge meaning the priest Againe The commandement of the high Priest and the decree of the Iudge Which fully importeth that he meaneth not the one by the other but expresseth two diuerse persons and two seuerall offices distinctly Wherfore master Stapleton apparantly wresteth the text thus flatly to say that he meaneth the high Priest by the name of Iudge to proue that his Pope hath no péere but all iudgement remayneth in him alone in euery difficult matter of religion And here againe appeareth another of his false and purposed ouerslippes Moses sayth he doth say that in doubtfull causes the people should haue their recourse to the priests Whie doe ye here master Stapleton forget your former marginall censure of leauing out anie materiall partes of the sentence telling vs of doubtful causes but not telling vs what those doubtfull causes were and speake as doubtfully as though they were matters of doctrine religion and ecclesiasticall ordinaunces which are the matters in question betwéene the partyes when this place speaketh onely of decyding a difficult or doubtfull matter betweene bloud and bloud plea and plea plague and plague in matters of stryfe But none of these specifications what maner of doutfull causes hée ment woulde you expresse for feare it woulde then bée to soone espyed that this sentence made nothing at all for the supreme iudgement of your Pope And yet after these two sleightes the one of remoouing the ciuill Prince or iudge from this iudgement with the Priestes and ascribing all to the Priestes alone to make it serue your purpose the better The other by slipping ouer all these doubtfull causes in the sentence expressed as thoughe it were simplie spoken wythout anye specification to make it serue for the Priestes absolute iudgemente in all ecclesiasticall ordinaunces When ye haue wyth thys dubble sleyght and wylinesse thus wrested the Text then come yée in ruffling lyke a lustye Rutterkin and swappe mée downe hereon this iolie marginall note An other sentence in the sayde Chapter by master Horne alleaged that ouerthroweth all his boast God saue al
Where this place ioyneth togither as colleages the prince with the priest or rather ascribeth the skil in suche doubtes to be defined by the learned and faythfull priest and the full authoritie to giue iudgement and to ratifie the Priestes sentence in condemning the refusers to death and in approuing the receyuers to consist not in the high Priest but in the Iudge or Prince And thus this place that he would so fayne wrest euery way agaynst Christian Princes and for his Pope and popelings béeing well wayed and considered according to his owne request maketh nothing for his matter nor for his shauelings but cleane agaynst them And béeing better wayed and considered maketh nothing against the Bishops cause nor against christian Princes supreme gouernment in ouerséeing correcting such false priests but very muche for their duetie and chiefe authoritie therin M. St. hauing thus shamefully counterblasted the Byshops allegatioÌ„ to set a good face on an euilfauorde matter biddes the byshop go on and crieth out that he hath goâ—…ten the victorie that the bishop is at his first encouÌ„tring ouerblowne and discomfited euen with his owne blast And that it is not likely hereafter that he shall bring any thing to resolue his aduersarie But as God would haue it all these wordes are no blowes nor arguments but vayne triuÌ„phes before he haue gotten the victorie of the which he reckoneth him selfe so sure that he graunteth the Byshops other allegation Deut. 13. For as for the next place sayth he it enforceth no supremacie we freely graunt you that princes may sharply punish teachers of false and superstitious religion and Idolatrie beeing therof by the Priests instructed whiche is the matter of your texte This parenthesis M. St. beeing therof by the priests instructed is the levvde lying glose of your owne forge The text hath no such matter of the priests instruction but what thinke you doth enstruction more enforce an authoritie in the priest than powre to punish correct doth enforce an authoritie in the prince or doth this follow that bicause the prince by the priests enstruction doth punish false teachers Ergo he punisheth theÌ„ by the priests authoritie but as you fréely graunt that the prince may punish noughtie false and idolatrous priests so that the priests instructioÌ„ is any matter of the byshops text or that his instruction should more enforce authoritie ouer the prince than the princes punishment doth ouer false teachers is both euident false this we as flatly deny as you do fréely graunt the other Howbeit presupposing that we would also grauÌ„t him this that all things must still be done by the priests instruction But then sayth master Stap. take heede to your selfe master Horne and as though he him selfe were this instructour for I say to you sayth he that ye and your fellowes teache false and superstitious religion many and detestable heresies and so withall playne idolatrie In déede sir so ye say that full stoutly braying out with I say to you but thanks be to God ye do but say it to vs ye do not proue it to vs but and it were put to a double post might it not proue a worde of course and then take heede to your selfe master Stapl. for we not onely say to you but by the worde of God proue it to you that you and your felowes teach false and superstitious religion many and detestable heresies so withal plaine idolatrie c. and so haue ye giuen sentence agaynst your selfe haue told the magistrate his office to punishe you as false teachers that care not how ye falsifie wrest the scriptures to deface your aduersarie the vnskilfulnesse and vnfaythfulnesse wherwith ye falsly charge him euer double or treble redounding vppon your selfe The residue of your proces on these two chalenges of vnskilfulnesse vnfaythfulnesse I referre to your common places of rayling scoffes and slaunders and will answere to the thirde great faulte that ye finde in this diuision Nowe that ye bring out of Glossa ordinaria say you that the Prince is commanded by his princely authoritie to cause his subiectes to become Israelites it may perhaps be in some ordinarie glose of Geneua his notes Bales or some such like but as for the olde ordinary Latin glose I am right sure M. Horne it hath no suche thing Are ye right sure therof M. Stap and hath it no suche thing in déede will ye venter your poore honestie thereon I dare say ye would haue vs thinke that ye haue looked on the ordinarie glose whether any suche thing were there or no else would ye neuer for shame so boldly affirme it But what speake I of shame in so shamelesse a face that boldly dare auouche he is right sure there is no suche thing when if he had looked in the ordinary glose except he would of purpose looke from it he could scantly misse it euen at the first viewe The wordes of the glose vpon super Israel are these Benedictio est regnare super Israel 1. regnando facere Israel s. deum videntes It is a blessing to raigne ouer Israell that is to saye by raigning which the Byshop Englished by his Princely authoritie to make or cause to become Israelites that is to wete folkes seeing God. The Bishop Englished the sentence playnly by his Princely authoritie to cause his subiectes to become Israelites And what is here that is not onely in summe of sentence but in the very emphasis or force of the bare wordes all one with the glose and yet this moste impudent what should I call him vnskilfull or vnfaythfull lyer or both chalengeth the Bishop of vntruth and sayth he is right sure there is no such thing In what thing wil this man stick to outface the simple vnlearned that dare thus deale with such a lerned father and coÌ„mit it to print to be examined of any lerned reader and crake of such assurance as though he had poared ouer al the booke for it euen at the first chop he is found an open lyer But I doubt whether euer he looked on the booke at all but trusted some retchelesse superuisor For if he had looked but ouer the head of the verie texte Ut longo tempore regnet That he might long time reigne hée shoulde haue founde noted on this worde Regnet corporaliter spiritualiter That hee shoulde reigne or exercise his Princely authoritie a long tyme Bodily and spiritually not onely to haue a regiment in lay temporall and ciuile matters as M. St. affirmeth but euen in spirituall matters also And had he but looked a little higher on these wordes Legetque illud omnibus diebus vitae suâ—… He should read it all the days of his life He should haue found Vsus reddit magistrum the vse of reading the worde of God makes the king a maister in Gods worde that is to say a setter forth or teacher thereof as it were Upon whiche the
him in contempt a good simple plaine man in hys dealings Whose wisedome iudgement learning and estimation not onelye all godly learned that knowe him both on this side and beyonde the seas acknowledge wyth reuerence but euen the chiefe syreâ—… on your syde and your good masters master Stapleton doe confesse thoughe they groyne thereat and be of contrarie opinion vnto him and agrée therein with you yet are they ashamed of this your light demeanour And which of them séeth not that yet it is muche better to be a good simple plaine man in his dealings then to be a vaineglorious wicked craftie dissembling man in his dealings as you haue shewed your selfe throughout all your Counterblast to be And if he be a good simple playne dealing man are not you agayne that durst counterblast his dealinges a naughtie false and dubble dealing man If he be a good simple plaine man in hys dealinges than he hath dealt well simplie and plainely wyth master Feckenham who ought to receyue the othe by his promise if he ment also good truth â–ª simple and playne fayth in his dealinges And then what ment you master Stapleton thus to bende your studie to spende your paper penne ynke paynes and tyme agaynst a good simple and plaine dealer Though ye haue Balaams marke â–ª man and tread the way of Balaam Qui mercedem iniquitat is amâ—…it That loued the rewarde of iniquitie Beyng hyred for luâ—…re to wryte agaynst him did ye thinke that dâ—…bling falseâ—… woulde preuayle agaynst honest playne and simple dealing Or that the truth is to be dispised bycause it is playne and simple And that your false craft woulde not be espyâ—… except some iolie fine freshe pregnaunt wittie fellowe woulde steppe forth and bring yee to the streightes Ye are muche deceyued master Stapleton in your owne concepte and thinke your selfe a iolyer fellows than any man else takes you that ye must néedes bée matched â—…th some suche â—…ie pregnaunt wittie fellowe or else ye can not be dryuâ—…n to the streightes But were your memorie as good as 〈◊〉 take your witte to be ye wouldâ—… not forgette that euen that Balaams Asse whereon your Balaams mynde doâ—…th ryde hath brought your selfe to the streyghtâ—… manie tymes before thys And as Saint Peter sayeth of hym Correptionem vero habuit sâ—… vesaniâ—… c. Hee was rebuked for hys iniquitie for the dumme Asse speaking with mans voyce forbad the foolishnesse of the Prophete so your owne tongue hath diuerse times so confounded you that there is lesse néede than ye wene of some suche iolye fellow I wisse a good simple plaine dealing man will bring ye to the streightes soone ynough howe wittie pregnant fresh fine and ioly so euer ye estéeme your selfe Nowe say you If I should as I sayde sende the Reader to them then shoulde I heare a foole a dolt an Asse that can say nothing of his owne As though ye had not alreadie sent the Reader to them when ye say it is a true and a short answere and set it forth with a solemne note in the margine as it were a marke for the nonce set vp for the Reader to resort vnto them Doth your conscience giue ye therefore that ye deserue suche homely termes as you conceyue ye shoulde heare if ye did so Whie did ye not then auoyde the doing so that ye might there by aâ—…oyde those termes But ye maye well heare in déede if not suche termes as your guiltie conscience fancieth you deserue yet this that yee can say nothing of your owne but theyr aunsweres in effect turquesed in your flaunting liuery wordes Then shoulde the cause be slaundered also saye you as so poore and weake that it coulde beare no large and ample Treatise and that their aunsweres were suche as I was ashamed of them and therefore wylilye and wiselye forbeared them wyth manye suche other triumphant tryfling toyes Would ye in good sadnesse master Stapleton auoyde all triumphant tryfling toyes Whie then stande ye tryfling in these excuses If master Harding and master Dorman haue aunswered these ensamples alreadie lease you any estimation vpon the whiche ye stande so muche béeing yet but a yong student in diuinitie to them to referre the matter to their aunsweres If they haue answered hoâ—… â–ª your surplusâ—…age is but tryfling toyes If it be any other then their aunsweres reached not home And so your answere makes your selfe a lyer that say they haue aunswered the Bishoppe alreadie Againe is your cause slaundered as poore and weake if it haue aunswered alreadie by suche famous Rabines Or is it the richer and stronger for the addition of your néedelesse toyes Lastly doth the honestie of your cause lie in bearing a large and ample Treatise Nowe truelye then it is a false cause that dare not abide shorte plaine and simple dealing but must bée flourished 〈◊〉 embossed out with a large and ample â–ª Treatise â—… And herein you haue done in déede your parte neyther wyll I speake it to flatter you thoughe I woulde not haue you waxe to prowde thereof your aunsweres are farre beyonde all your fellowes or maisters or anye of your syde for rayling scoffing lying slaundering quarrelling digressions and other your common places ye may â—…eare the pricke and prise Yea the best of them all herein are but benchewhiâ—…lers to you that of so poore and weake of so false and naughtie a cause coulde make it beare so large and ample a Treatise But when all is done a good playne simple manne in hys dealing woulde tell yée in plaine Englishe that all these flourisheâ—… are nothing else but tryumphaunt trysâ—…ing toyes Againe say you if I shoulde repeate or inculcate their aunsweres then woulde master Nowell or some other rushe in vpon mee with his ruffling rhetorike that he vseth against master Dorman and master Doctor Harding with a precise account and calculation what eyther master Dorman oâ—… master doctor Harding borowed of Hosius or either of them two of the other and what I haue no we borowed of them both or of eyther of them It were maruayle had master Stapleton any shame that he would for shame mention those broade borowings Howbeit that this is but a craftie preoccupation borowing likewise from them the most of his stuffe and would not be vpbrayded therefore nor called to account a good simple plaine dealing man may soone espie this preuention Nowe that he hath cast all his doubts that encumbred him like a circumspect man bicause he woulde haue hys aunswere large and ample and hath made his preoccupation vnder the name of borowing to steale hereafter what he will from his fellowes knowing he might be bolde with them who had by like borowing 〈◊〉 the sâ—…ne from others leauing the short aunswere that he chose before hée chooseth two for more suretie that if the one fayle him the other may helpe at a piâ—…che But on the one syde sayeth he least anye of the good brethren shoulde
that he exercised ordinary gouernment ouer priests and all ecclesiastical persons and causes as other Princes did after him â–ª is not to be broughte for example for our christian princes to follow This is the plaine full effect of your tale And what an ilfauorde argument is this I pray you but to hide this sequele after your fashion ye would inserre another yet more darke conclusion saying It must needes therfore follow that Moses was a priest that a high priest which ye heere full peenishly denie Doth this conclusion M. Stap. if it were admitted improue the Byshops assertion and yet this your conclusion standing on thrée partes as it is not to the purpose so is euery parte starke false and like the maker thereof For Moses by his prerogatiue hauing especiall coÌ„maundement of God therto might well do all those things and yet it followeth not of any necessitie that as you say he must néedes therfore haue bene a priest Or if he had bene a priest he must néedes therefore be a high priest or if he had bene a high priest that he must néedes be the highest priest Neither did the byshop denie peeuishly that he denied as you full peeuishly rashely and like your selfe do iudge nor yet denied or graunted or spoke vpon one way or other whether Moses were priest or a high priest yea or no. But denied and that truely that Moses was not the highest or chiefe priest Which words ye durst not alleage nor yet generally terme him the high priest but ye say a priest and that a high priest your selfe séeming euen by your spéeche to graunt that the high priest or highest priest he was not Nor ye can not cauill about your owne phrase vnlesse ye will say it is all one a Lorde and the Lorde a high priest and the high priest so say ye ment the chiefe priest when ye sayd a high priest for all the worlde séeth a great difference betwéene these termes and that your self did subtilly sée to make the reader beléeue ye had performed your promise in prouing him to be the chiefe priest And yet ye bring no profe but onely say a priest and that a high priest â—…go the highest priest So that if the reader more narroâ—…ly viewing your grosse sleight shoulde chalenge ye that you haue not proued him the highest priest simply no will ye say to saue your honestie I onely sayde a priest and a high Priest and no more But why do ye then belie the byshop saying he denied that that he medled not with and proue not your matter in hande nor kéepe touch with your reader in perfourming your promise that Moses was the chiefe Priest Haue ye learned so wel this subtill shift that Omne promissum est aut debitum aut dubium Euery promise is eyther due or doubtfull But howsoeuer ye will discharge your promise this your doutfull conclusion neither dischargeth your falshood nor impugneth the Bishoppes assertion muche lesse ouerturnes it that he was not the chiefe priest but the chiefe Prince or gouernoure and thereby did order and direct Gods true religion bothe to all the Priestes and people as the Bishop affirmed Nowe seeing he can by no meanes neyther olde stuffe nor newe stuffe bring it about as he wold haue it nor proue him to be the highest Priest he will leaue his promise and lyke to the Fore that would eate no Grapes when he could not come by them with all the leapes he coulde make so M. Sta. will nowe euen renounce his solemne marginall crake that he promised to proue Moyses the chiefe prieste and leaping at it but euer leaping shorte that he was a Priest and a little higher that he was a highe Priest but he can not leape so high to obtaine his purpose that he was the highest Priest he will now let him goe for béeing any Priest at all and since he can not get the grape he wil none of it but will hunt after an other praie I say now further with master Dorman sayth he that put the case Moses were no priest yet this exaÌ„ple frameth not so smoothly and closely to your purpose as ye weene for Moses was a prophet and that such a prophetas the like was not againe Giue me now M. Horne Princes prophetes giue mee Pâ—…nces and lawmakers by especiall order and appointement ordeined of God to whose wordes God certainly wold haue giuen as great authoritie as he would and commaunded to be giuen to Moses and then perchaunce I will saye that ye saye somewhat well to the purpose Againe Moyses was suche a speciall Prophete and so singularly chosen of God to bee hearde and obeyed in all thinges that he is in the holy Scripture euidently compared to Christe himselfe compared I saye in the office of teachyng and instructing Moyses in the Deuteronom foretelling the Iewes of a Messias to come sayeth The Lorde thy God will rayse thee vp a Prophete from among thyne owne nation and of thy brethren suche an one as my selfe him thou shalt heare And this so spoken of Moyses in the olde Lawe is in the nevve Testament auouched and repeated firste by S. Peter the chiefe apostle and nexte by Saint Stephan the firste martyr and applyed to Chryste If then Christe must be so heard and obeyed of vs as was Moyses of the Ievves no doubte as Christe is a king a Prince a Prophete a Prieste and a Bishoppe to vs so vvas Moyses to them a Prince a Prophete a Priest and a Bishoppe As Christe is of vs to bee hearde and obeyed as well in all matters Ecclesiasticall as temporall for no temporall lawe can haue force agaynste the lawe of Christe among Christian men so vvas Moyses to be hearde and obeyed of the Ievves in matters and causes as vvell temporall as spirituall For vvhy the Scripture is playne Tanquam meipsum audietis You shall heare that Prophete euen as my selfe Shevve vs Master Horne any prince in the nevve Testamente so conditioned and endevved and then make your argumente on Gods name Verely any prince that novve is namely in Ecclesiasticall gouernement compared vvyth Moyses is as the Poete sayth Impar congressus Achilli Troilus Yea forsoothe novve yee saye somethyng further Maister Stapleton as ye boaste howbeâ—…it nothyng further in substaunce than youre fellowes before but in flourish of Copia verborum yee saye novve further in déede And I maye saye to you it was high tyme to saye something furtherâ—… for hytherto all that ye haue sayde is nothyng Well saye you nowe Put the case Moyses were no Prieste I conclude then he was not hyghe Prieste and so putting this case yée put youre selfe in an yll case that before ye made a false lying crake and nowe with shame are fayne to giue it ouer But if ye put the case as ye say like Master Dorman then dare ye not abide by this case neither lyke Wylliam Sommer for so playde Master Dorman in putting this case
and so I feare in the ende ye must be fayne to do Nay say you it frameth not so smoothely and closely to youre purpose as ye vvene Well Master Stapleton it hath hitherto so framed that ye are fayne to gyue ouer youre tackelyng and forsake the perfourmaunce of youre promyse and to séeke oute other shiftes of descante so that althoughe ye woulde beare vs in hande it frameth not so smoothelie and closelie for the Bishoppe as hée thinkes yet you graunt thereby that it frameth to his purpose But as for your purpose for all youre olde or newe stuffe it neyther frameth wyde nor close smoothe nor roughe but bringes it out of frame For what an argument call ye this Though Moyses was no prieste yet Moyses was a prophete so well as a Prince Ergo Princes in that respect Moyses was a Prince may not followe his princely steppes Was not Saule also for the while a Prophet Num Saul inter prophetas Was not Debora a Prophetesse and yet a Princesse too or Iudge ouer Israel Was not Dauid a Prophete and is commonly called Regius propheta the Kingly Prophete Neuerthelesse all Christian Princes maye and oughte to folowe his princely supreme gouernement And yet you cry Giue me now M. Horne princes prophetes giue me princes and lawemakers by especiall order and appoyntmente ordeined of GOD. Doe ye not sée howe fondly ye reason and howe ye confute your selfe â–ª Yée reason as thoughe there were no difference to be putte betwéene those especiall giftes and appointmentes and the ordinarie gifte of their Princely authoritie bycause one Prince had bothe and that after an extraordinarie and especiall sorte but if those commaundementes lawes and giftes of prophecies were suche specialties as you saye ordeined of God then do your self seuer them from the prince ly authoritie And why do ye then demaund suche prerogatiues in euery Prince whiche they had not in respâ—… â–ª they were Princes but in other especiall respects But by this your fonde rule if bycause they had suche especiall priuileges commaundementes or giftes therfore they are not to be broughte in for an example of the authoritie then you must not alleage them for the Priestes or bishops authoritie in Ecclesiast causes neyther except your Priests Bishops haue the lyke prerogatiues and that God wold haue as great authoritie giuen to them as he would and commanded to be giuen to Moyses And thus your argument maketh directly againste your selfe Yea you may hereby exclude al Princes from al ciuil gouernement too whiche if we proued they might haue bicause Moyses ordered and directed all the Iudiciall lawes of Gods people may ye not replie on this fashion and say Giue me Princes and lawmakers by special order appointment ordeined of God For you knowe wée can giue you none in these lawes neyther that are equall to Moyses May not therfore Moyses ensample herein be alleaged for the Princes authoritie in makyng ciuill lawes bicause the Prince maketh them not with suche speciall order and appointment ordeined of God as Moses did Yes M. Stap. Moyses authoritie may well be alleaged for al Princes authoritie although they haue not the like gifts that Moyses Iosue or Dauid had Yea those singular ornamentes of God in them ioyned to their princely authoritie make so 〈◊〉 an argument to feare Princes from doing the like things bicause they haue not the like excellent giftes that they be rather encouragementes to set such singular Princes gouernement as patternes to folow euermore before their eyes and the better those Princes were the better theyr ensamples be Where as you reason contrarywise such a Prince was more excelleÌ„t than princes be now Ergo our Princes now may not take example of him but ye shoulde conclude that they oughte to take example of him the rather And euen for these causes such Princes are examples to all other bicause they so excell all other So men set their children in writing to the best and most cunning penman at the least to haue them come the nearer to him so muche as they can though they caÌ„not fully attain to his perfectioÌ„ not to say tushe he writes too fine for them and therfore they must not take ensamples of him Yea if a learned Schoolemaister were also an excellent diuine myght not the same man be reckoned for a schoolemaister yea rather for a paterne and ensample for other schoolemaisters to follow bicause of his singular gift to traine the children vp in the feare knowledge of God so well as in the rudimentes of Grammer And will ye then debarre Moyses from being an example to other Princes bicause he was not only a Prince but a Prophete also bicause he had more excellente giftes and prerogatiues than other Princes haue But here thynking thereby the more to abase and dashe Christian Princes oute of countenaunce from taking example of this excellente Prince Moyses ye mounte so highe into the prayse of him that lyke to the Fryer which in the prayse of saincte Frauncis extolling him aboue all the Sainctes aboue Seraphin and Cherubyn yea aboue Christe coulde fynde no place in Heauen to sette him in so where in the prayse of Moyses ye shoulde referre him vnto Christe ye ouershoote your selfe and referre Christe vnto him making Christe to be terminum à quo and Moses terminum ad quem â–ª Moyses sayeth saye you The Lorde thy God will rayse thee vp a prophete from among thyne owne nation and of thy brethren suche a one as my selfe him shalte thou heare Ergo Châ—…ist is so to be hearde of vs as Moyses was of the â—…wes Hereuppon preposterously ye inuerte the reason backewarde not from Moyses to Christe of whome Moyses knowledged hym selfe but a fygure but from Christe agayne to Moyses as though Christe also were a fygure of him saying As Christe is a kyng a Prophet a Prieste and a Bishoppe to vs so was Moyses to them a Prince â–ª a Prophete a Priest and a Bishop As Christe is of vs to be hearde and obeyed â—…s vvell in all matters Ecclesiasticall as temporall so was Moyses to be hearde and obeyed of the Iewes in matters and causes as well temporall as spirituall What a manifest writhing of Scripture is this Who playeth Cacus parte here that drewe Hercules â—…en by the tayles backwarde and so stole them into his theeuishâ—… denne Doe not you so hale this testimonie of Scripture backwarde lyke the witche that sayde hir Pater noster backewarde to make hir payle goe forewarde saying As Christe is King Prophete Prieste and Bishop so was Moyses As Christe is to be hearde and obeyed so was Moyses Where by the testimonie alleaged ye shold rather haue reasoned forwarde thus As Moyses was Prince Prophet priest bishop to theÌ„ so should Christ be to vs As Moyses was hearde and obeyed of them so shoulde Christe be of vs This had bene the right and orderly reason but you sawe that then youre wresting the Text woulde
is the full effect of your whole answere which how effectuall it is to infringe the Bishops assertion let all the worlde be indge And yet ye so triumphe hereon that as it were some instie freshe Champion hauing beaten all downe before him ye crie out for another aduersarie Here I wish say you to encounter with master Nowell Ye are all heart to the hard héeles I sée M. St. and were it not herein that ye resemble the wise captayne that in the beginning you mentioned out of Luke 14 I woulde haue sayde this chalenge had procéeded of a noble and hawte â—…orage but bicause it wanteth that naturall wisdoâ—…e and foresight so rashly to runne vpon one aduersarie hauing more than bothe your handfuls with him yet more fondly to chalenge another on your toppe your caâ—…se beeinâ—… so badde and your selfe so weake and vnskilfull a souldiour withall all wise men will iudge it in you neither pollicie nor manhoode but that in your foole hardie presumption ye play but the desperate Dicke if not a Thom of Lâ—…dlem The. 12. Diuision NExt to Moses the Bishop adioyneth the ensample of Iosue prouing by diuers testimonies and doings of Iosue that the supreme gouernement in all ecclesiasâ—…i also well as temporall causes was committed to him â—…ot to Eleazar the high priest who onely had the ministration of things belonging to the priestly office M. Stap. in al the residue of the examples â—…auing before promised to be as briefe as he may yet to amplifie his answere least it should be too briefe or his counterbâ—…ast too small in the beginning and so throughout his answers picketh bye quarels at the Apologie at master Nowell at the Conuocation and other thinges not to the present purpose but for any materiall or directe answere to any of Iosues doinges he vseth nothing but méere shiftes or very childishe arguments First to Iosue his example generally M. D. Harding sayth he sheweth that allegation to importe no chiefe rule in spirituall matters as in deede it doth not As though the whole matter M Stap. muste be determined by â—…hat so euer your M. D. Harding hath sayde and you with it is learned proofe in deede it dothe not haue confirmed your masters saying Now as though this were betwéene his allegation and your coÌ„firmation a sufficient and ful prooâ—…e ye set downe theron your marginall note as a cleare case Iosue no supreme gouernour in all ecclesiasticall causes What kinde of arguing call ye this M. Stapl but sée howe soone at the first ye confounde your selfe and 〈◊〉 that Iosue had the gouernement in eccleuasticall matters For where ye picke by quarels already answered agaynst the Apologie and master Nowell about this phrase to goe foorth and come in and will not haue it vnderstoode onely of going and comming to and fro the warres as M. Nowell hath fully proued it dothe as also Ruvi 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 Aben â—…zra do expounde it and Lyra expresseth the meaning of the phrase do a quod noâ—… siâ—… 〈◊〉 ad labores sed priâ—…us so that he be not the last but the first to labour But say yau Immediatly before it is generally vvritten prohoc si quid agendum crit Eleazar sacerdos consulet dominum For him meaning Iosue Eleazar 〈◊〉 aske counsell of God when any thing is to be done In which words we see euidentâ—…y that Iosue whatsoeuer he did touching the gouerning of the people in ecclesiasticall matters he did nothing of him selfe but was in all suche matters instructed of Eleazarus the high Priest. Doe ye not see withal euidently master Stapleton that admitting this to be vnderstood so generally as you preteÌ„d howe your selfe doe piaynly graunte that the gouernement in ecclesiasticall matters appertayned to Iosue in saying VVhat soeuer he did touching the gouerning of the people in ecclesiasticall matters and what now will ye make Iosue a Priest no say you but in all such thinges he was instructed of Eleazarus the highe priest VVhos 's parte therfore it was alwayes to aske counsell of God when Iosuâ—… had anything to doe Why what then M. Stap. the question is not asked heere of asking counsell who asked it of God or whether Iosue asked it of Eleazar but by whose gouernment it was done We graunt the Princes shoulde aske counsell in all ecclesiasticall matters of their godlye learned clergie and they shoulde aske it of God that is to say of his holy worde wherein he hath reuealed his will. But what letteth this asking counsell the ordering doing setting forth and gouerning of those ecclesiasticall matters to be in the Prince What hindreth this that the Prince ought to aske counsell also in euery weightie ciuill affayre the chiefe gouernment thereof to be in the Prince Though he follow in all points the aduice of his counsellers yet haue not they the chiefe authoritie This exception therefore of asking counsell taketh not away your graunt that Iosue had the doing of those things that touched the gouerning of the people in ecclesiasticall matters And so is this a fit ensample euen by your owne flatconfession And with all ye haue graunted the full issue that godly Princes haue and may take vpon them such gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes as the Q. maiestie now doth Here if ye would flée touch and say ye graunt Iosue had the gouernement in causes ecclesiasticall but not the supreme gouernment although this be but a shifting toy so long as he did not those things by any others gouernance and yet is it much more than your fellowes or your selfe otherwhiles will confesse that he was any gouernour at all in ecclesiasticall matters so contrarie ye are to your fellowes and your selfe yet what can ye shew why as ye grauÌ„t Iosue to be gouernour so he should not be supreme gouernour also but be subiect to another If ye stand on this argument Iosue must in all things aske counsell of the Priest Ergo Iosue in all things is subiect to the Priestes iudgement By this argument you will make the kinges counsell to be the kings supreme gouernours to But they for all theyr good counsell giuen to the king be he neuer so much bâ—…und to take it are but his subiectes still therein and he their soueraigne Lord for by him when al their couÌ„sell is done the thing must be set forth established through his authoritie As therfore you haue grauÌ„ted Iosue had the gouerning of the people in ecclesiastical matters so this exceptioÌ„ doth nothing embarre his supreme gouernment therein but rather establish it that in all his doings were they neuer so generall the priest was but the counsellour first learning of God and then instructing his Prince but the gouerning and setting forth thereof belonged vnto Iosue And to reason on the contrarie from asking or giuing counsel and instruction to a chiefe authoritie or from following good counsell to obedience and subiection is but an homely argument and fitte for
of ciuill iustice neither for he is therein also a minister and executor of Gods sentence that by his Propheâ—…es commaundeth the Prince to minister and execute iustice And by this rule howe coulde 〈◊〉 prooue this superioritie to bée iâ—… youre Pope eyther would ye make him haue such a claime that he should not be Gods minister and executer of Gods sentences or would ye not rather reason contrary He is in all spirituall causes the minister and executer of Gods sentences published by his Prophets Ergo he is the supreme gouernour vnder God in all spirituall causes If ye had any sentence of God to proue this antecedent I warrant ye then ye would reason on this wise Yea you do reason on this wise though ye haue no sentence of God at all therefore As for vs we haue as by your owne testimonie the worde of God to warrant that the Prince in deposing the hiest Priest and figure of your Pope as ye say hath so good warrant of authoritie therefore that euen hee was Gods minister therein and executer of Gods sentence which plainly argueth his supreme authoritie next and immediately vnder god To be a minister and executer on that fashion next and immediately vnder God is no argument to abase the princes authoritie If ye had proued he had béene the priestes vnderling minister and executour herein this had béene somewhat to your purpose But this ye could not proue and ye sayd the contrary before that the priest was the princes minister and executour and that he deposed Abiathar not by himselfe but as he sacrificed by causing another to minister and execute for him Nowe when ye say the Prince is Gods minister and executer the priest is the princes minister and executer doe not your self I pray you acknowledge in the ministerie and the execution the priest to be vnder the prince and that the prince is not onely Gods minister and executer but as ye say further the causer commaunder and procurer also therof to the priestes Is this the ouerthrowing of the Bishop as your margin maketh boast or is it not rather the ouerthrowing of your selfe can ye speake any thing more plaine for the Bishop and agaynst your cause than this and yet ye crie eut that the Bishop omitted and dissembled â—…his guilefully craftily verily M. Stap â–ª there was no cause ye see why he should so do the craft and guile is but your owne the Bishop as he did in all the other doings onely touched them per transâ—…nnam not describing any one of the circumstances but in a worde or two shewed the fact and so passed ouer to other factes of Salomon But whatsoeuer the Bishop tolde or left vntolde it had béene better for you as ye haue vsed guylefully and craftily many other poyntes to haue omitted and dissembled this if ye haue no better shift than this that not onely maketh nothing agaynst the Bishoppes assertion in Salomons supreme gouernment but still more and more euen by the mouth of God by his Prophets doth confirme the same Nowe that none of all 〈◊〉 shifts will hitherto sâ—…rue against this one ensample of Salomon yet hath M. St onâ—… shift more behinde and that a trimme shift to Besides sayth he that the deposing of Abiathar doeth not employ that Salomon was the chiefe ruler in all causes ecclesiasticall whiche is the Butte that ye must shoote at and then must ye prouide another bowe for this will not shoote home This is one of your olde sâ—…ale shiftes M. Stap. I sée you are nowe euen at the last cast to let the arrowe alone and quarrell about the bow and the butte but and ye would as ye gaue good counsell to others haue followed it your selfe in firing still your eye on the issue betwéene the parties in controuersie neyther would yemake so many vagaryes as ye do nor here haue quarelled at the Bishopâ—… short shooting The wordes of the issue whiche is the butte that M. Feck requireth the Bishop to shoote vnto if ye be remembred are these to make proofe vnto me that any Emperour or Empresse King or Queene may claime or take vppon them any such gouernment in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes meaning as doth the Quéene if the Bishop proue this then he hittes the Butte His artillerie the Bow and Arrowes that he must shoote withall at thys Butte are appoynted by him likewise the Scriptures the doctors the Counsels and the practise the testimonies allegations decrées and examples therein conteyned The Bishop hitherto hath with many arrowes out of the Scripture hit the Butte so full that as yet ye coulde not make this quarrell but sought other peltyng shiftes Nowe séeing that none of all those paltrie brablings will serue ye say hée shootes not home and must chaunge his Bowe His Bowe here is the Scripture his Arrowes here are the ensamples of Salomon of which the Bishop shotte a good many seuerall Arrowes and factes and euery one hitte the Butte He alleaged not onely the facte of Abiathars deposition but also of Sadockes placing of consecrating the Temple of sacrificing of placing the Arke therein of blessing the people of directing the Priests Leuites and other Churche officers and of their obedience to all his commaundements Of all these allegations you your selfe master Stapleton choose one to answere vnto whiche is the deposition of the highe Priest and say all the obiection dependes thereon And so guylefully omitting the residue stande onely a measuring thys shotte and in the ende after muche warbling crie out shorte shorte ye muste prouide another Bowe for thys wyll not shoote home The deposing of Abiathar doeth not employe that Salomon was the chiefe Ruler in all ecclesiasticall causes First what if it doth not M. Stapleton one fact of Salomon employes not all ecclesiasticall causes Go to doth it employ some ecclesiasticall causes to be in the chiefe rule of the Prince If ye graunt me this ye graunt the issue and this is the ende ye graunt But ye say it employes not all ecclesiasticall causes â–ª and therefore is short â–ª Did the Bishop againe shoote no more but that one how chaunce ye medled not in measuring of the other Did ye foresee that as this had hitte one cause another woulde hitte another and so at the least euery one one cause yea perchaunce euery one 〈◊〉 and so a number of your causes might be hitte and perchaunce all causes by some one shot not yet measured and therefore guylefully and crastily disâ—…embling and omiâ—…ting them you let all the rest alone Yet should ye not then for shame haue thus cryed out agaynst this one first shotte since if it were shorte though short shooting léese the game yet one shorte shotte leaseth it not And if one bee shorte manye other maye come home and wynne the game for all this especially matching with one that shooteth so faire and Gentlemanlyke as you doe Maister Stapleton that it were better to stande at
the marke many tymes than from it But séeing ye deale so vneuenly with the Bishops other shottes for all your bellowing short shorte it hittes not the Butte it commes not home ye giue all standers by suspition of falâ—…e ayme in this shotte and therefore let vs measure it once againe The deposing of Abiathar saye you doth not employ that Salomon was chiefe ruler in all ecclesiasticall causes I pray you who was then chiefe ruler in all ecclesiasticall causes Abiather say you And wherefore he bicause he was the highest Priest or Byshoppe therefore the chiefe rule of them was in him Doth it not then followe if he depose him in whome is all the rule that all this rule is yet restrayned vnder hys higher rule that deposeth him For the more manâ—…fest ensample of our time If I aske in whom the chiefe rule of all ecclesiastical causes is now in the Pope say you wherfore say I bâ—…cause say you he is the hiest Priest or Bishop and therefore he hath the â—…yest rule of all ecclesiasticall causes Well say I if the Emperouâ—… nowe woulde go aboute to cite the Pope to iudge him and tell him he is the childe of death for not acknowledging his olde obedience to him and so deposing hym bydde him departe and meddle no more with that Byshoprike the Emperour can not doe this say you for then the Pope in all ecclesiasticall causes shoulde be the Emperours inferiour if the Emperour might depose 〈◊〉 bicause when he is deposed by the Emperour from all his chiefe rule all his chiefe rule is translated from him and so were hée vnder the Emperour and all his chiefe rule at the Emperours disposition to giue to another But thys saye you were suche a fowle inconuenience as the lyke can not bée And therefore the Emperour can not depose the Pope but the Pope the Emperour This is your common reasoning Wherein doe ye not sée howe the graunting of the deposition of the chiefe Priest inferreth a hyer rule and authoritie in the deposer ouer the deposed in euerie prerogatiue that the partie deposed had before he was deposed But then will ye say the Prince that deposed the highest Priest may not he doe all those matters that the priest might haue done if hée bée the chiefe ruler of them It is one thing master Stapleton to be the chiefe ruler in and ouer all those ecclesiasticall causes that the partie deposed myghte haue done and to bée the chiefe doer or executioner of them For example the Prince maketh an Admirall or chiefe ruler ouer hys Seas a President or Deputie ouer hys Marches a chiefe Iustice or Chauncellour ouer hys lawes c. These Officers agayne the king deposeth the deposition of them is an argument that in all those thinges the King is the chiefe ruler And although the King can not doe anye of those thinges that belong to their Offices yet is that no impayring of hys chiefe rule ouer them and all thinges in theyr offices And therefore hée transferreth the doing to them that better can or wyll doe those offices And so likewyse in the chiefe office of priesthood admitting there were such an one now in all ecclesiasticall causes though the prince can not do all those ecclesiasticall actioÌ„s nor any one of them yet grant the prince that he may depose that chiefe priest to whome the doing of them appertaineth ye graunt with all that he is the chiefe ruler of all those ecclesiasticall things so farre forth as the rule of ouersight gouernance and directing stretcheth vnto which is aboue the ministeriall executing Nowe as youre selfe haue confessed the prince is the causer and the prieste the executor and doer which likewise his name importeth and therefore is called minister whiche name though the prince haue also yet he hath it as your selfe haue likewise confessed in a higher respecte bicause he is Gods especiall minister to ouersée directe dispose and depose all other ministers And thus graunting the ensample euen but of this one facte of Salomon for our princes to followe to depose in their realmes any one whatsoeuer highest or lowest priest it not only hitteth home the butte yea and the pricke to set vp by master FeckeÌ„ham but this one facte of Salomon and the like of christian princes now employeth a chiefe rule of ouer sight and direction though not of executing in al ecclesiasticall causes besides whatsoeuer appertayneth to the parties office that may be so deposed as Abiathar was by Salomon The vntruth that ye note in the end of this ensample is orderly aunswered in your beadrolle The. 15. Diuision TThe Bishop in this diuision alleadging the example of king Iosaphat chiefly of two visitatioÌ„s set forth by him 2. Paral. 17. and. 19. how he reformed religion through out all his dominions appointed preachers and setters foorth of Gods lawe and Iudges in all causes aswell ecclesiasticall as temporal coÌ„cludeth his supreme gouernment herevpon To this Master Stap. counterblasâ—…eth As M. Doctour Harding and M. Dorman haue written so say I that yee are they which frequent priuate hilles aulters and darke groues that the scripture speaketh of VVherein you haue set vp your Idols that is your abhominable heresies In that ye say master Stapleton As they say so say I ye shewe howe well ye haue learned your lessons thus one of another to say what soeuer your master sayd before you and take your bare so saying for proufe good inough But as ye fondly flatter your selues with your owne sayings so more fondly ye obtrude them as principles to your aduersaries that will by and by bid ye either proue them or else will they still estéeme them as they are for mere lying sayings of a knot of thrée false confederates the master his two schollers to outface delude the manifest truth withal And if these your masters sayings and yours hap to become wordes of course then beware you on whose side they are lykest to light that haue mainteyned so open Idolatrie and diuerse false worships of God that he did neuer institute After this master Stapleton drawing néerer to the matter admitâ—…eth this example of King Iosaphat VVee also confesse sayeth he that there is nothing written in the holye Scripture of Iosaphat touching his care and diligence about the directing of ecclesiasticall matters but that godly Princes may at this day do the same doing it in such sort as Iosaphat did Holde ye here master Stapleton and we aske no more of you Ye haue here frankly confessed two things First the care and diligence that Iosaphat had aboute the directing ecclesiasticall matters Which care and diligence was the Bishoppes first proposition nowe twise alreadie graunted by you what followed thereon ye haue heard before alreadie Secondly that godly Princes may at this day doe the same doyng it in such sort as Iosaphat did Herevpon I conclude this argument As Iosaphat did in directing ecclesiasticall matters so doth the Queenes maiestie
in his owne person throughout al his couÌ„trey What fault find ye herewith that he called it a progresse call you it an egresse or by what ye can finde a more vsuall or â—…itter name where the prince him selfe doth trauell The text is 〈◊〉 egressus est ad populuÌ„ and again he went foorth vnto the people Stande ye on that he said it was in his owne person In déede Lyra saith per sacerdotes Leuit as sicuâ—… ante ficaraâ—… He went foorth by the Priests Leuites as he had done before But the text séemeth coÌ„trary that he traueled him selfe Wheron Uatablus noteth vt ambularet per populuÌ„ fortasse queÌ„ offenderat â—…alo exeÌ„plâ—… vel per populuÌ„ cut praeâ—…rat quasi dicat peâ—…agrauit regioneÌ„ sibi subditam That he might trauel by the people whoÌ„ perhaps he had offended by his euill exaÌ„ple for personally he went out with them to Achabs warres or by the people whoÌ„ he ruled as though he should say he trauelled all ouer the realme that was subiect to him Are ye offended that he sayth throughout al his countrey The text is playne De Bersabe vsque ad monteÌ„ Ephraim from Beersabee euen to the mount Ephraim Id est sayth Lyra à principio regni sui vsque ad finem that is from the beginning of his kingdome euen to the end therof Of which progresse in the note before sayth Lyra Hie consequenter ponitur ipsius Iosaphat emeÌ„datio in se populo primo in cultu diuino Here consequently is set foorth the amendment of Iosaphat in him selfe and in the people and first in the worship of God. In none of these words hitherto there is any indignitie nothing to be detested or any ridiculous tale to be laughed at but euery word is agreable to the most graue holy and infallible worde of God. If there were therfore any such leuitie detestablenesse in the bishops termes it is only in this that he likened those parties to iustices of the peace But this name I am sure is neither to be detested nor laughed at except you be some od wicked Lucian or Timon â—…all godly christians can allowe this name with reuerence Is the ridiculcusnesse detestablenesse in saying the one might resemble the other reade the text Constituitque Iudices terrae in cunctis ciuitatibus Iuda munitis per singula loca and he appointed Iudges of the land in all the walled cities of Iuda through all places Now could a man expresse this by a liuelyer example than to say those petit iudges were as it were Iustices of the peace if you can shewe a more apter estate to expresse them by do it on Gods name I dare say for the Byshop he will giue you good leaue though ye somewhat missed the quishion make no such haynous matter therat Lyra sayth Hic secundo describitur ipsius Iosaphat populi melioratio in regimine populi primo in communibus causis secundo in arduis in quibus erat recursus in Hierusalem Circa primum dicitur constituitque Iudices vt non oporteat populum discurrere à loca ad locum ad habendum in causis communibus Heere secondly is described the bettering of Iosaphat him selfe and his people in the gouernance of the people first in common causes secondly in difficulte causes wherein the recourse was vnto Hierusalem Concerning the firste it is sayde and he appoynted Iudges to be had in the common matters that the people shoulde not runne vp and downe from place to place And is not this exposition of Lyra so agreable to the Byshops that it conteyneth euen the same what cause then had ye héere Master Stapl. to make this haynous exclamation Were not this youre dealing rather ridiculous and to be laughed at sauyng that the indignitie of your enuious demeanour is more to be detested But nowe in the matter of all this what is héere that directly inferreth not Iosaphats supreme gouernement not onely ouer the nobles and the people but ouer the Priests Leuites preachers al the clergy in directing and setting foorth the word worship of God that not only in coÌ„moÌ„ matters but eueÌ„ for those matters also of the priests senteÌ„ce at Ierusalem for the which hitherto ye haue made so muche ado but all this M. Stap. though he saw it plaine inough yet he thought best not to meddle therwith But rather least the reader shoulde marke it also to finde him play about the printing of words and phrases and here at to hallow and make suche outcries as though all the matter lay therein Yea he bursteth out into such a vehemencie of his spirite that not contente with his former haynous quarels he layeth yet greater to the Byshops charge saying But from fonde counterfayting he proceedeth to flat lying for where he sayth that Iosaphat commanded and prescribed vnto the chiefe Priests what fourme and order they should obserue in the ecclesiasticall causes and controuersies of religion c. This is a lewde and a horrible lye flatly belying Gods holy worde the which in one that goeth for a Byshop what can be done more abhominable In déede M. Stapl. it were an abhominable thing to belye Gods holy worde were it in any man chiefly in a Byshop but this abhomination besides many worsse not only lewdly flatly horribly to belie but to deface blaspheme yea to take away and burne Gods holy worde are the right properties of your Popish Bishops not of ours But what hath the Bishop nowe héere saide that belyeth and accordeth not with the holy scripture for the wordes which you your selfe set foorth do they not playnly comprehende a fourme and order which they should obserue in ecclesiasticall matters and controuersies of religion Sic agetis c. Thus shall ye do in the feare of the Lorde faythfully and with a perfect heart And as your selfe expound it They should do their duetie faythfully and perfectly as they had done before in the dayes of Asa and Abias Lo do not your owne selfe héere confesse a maner and fourme of order which be prescribed them to do those things by Agayne are not these your owne words howe Iosaphat appoynted the Leuites and priestes to these ecclesiasticall functions it shal appeare in the next Chapter by the example of Ezechias Where ye say howe he did it had that how no maner or fourme of order in it Yes but ye say that maner of fourme shall appeare in the example of Ezechias A Gods name so let it doe in the meane season ye graunt he did it after the fourme of order that Ezechias dyd it And there ye say that Ezechias did it as Dauid did it But ye wotte well the Scripture sheweth at large the fourmes and orders of Dauids appoyntments if therefore Ezechias did it like to Dauid and Iosaphat like to Ezechias then is the bishops saying proued true by all these your confessions that he
euen the name of Ministers as euen your selfe do M. St. other where how soeuer here it came vppon you to pretende to bestow a reuerent speach thereon But the Apostles thought not scorne of the name but willed men so to estéeme them as the ministers of God and the dispensers of his mysteries but as your papall Bishops and Priestes be nothing like Gods ministers so least of all are they like the Prophets that were then except ye meane the prophets of Baal that maintayned idolatrie and pleasant leasings to maintayne them selues at Achabs table and fill their paunches with the chéere of Beel and the Dragon The Lords prophets they be not like neither in preaching propheciyng or ought els And yet saith M. Stapl. they be the onely ministers of God now in spirituall matters as prophets were then in the like Why M. Stapl. were the prophets then onely gods ministers in spirituall matters if ye say no how doth your tale hang togither why say ye they are onely Gods ministers now as Prophets were then in the like since the Prophetes were not onely Gods ministers then as ye pretende for your Bishops and Priestes to be onely now If they were not onely then no more be yours only now admitting they were in the like If ye say yea they were onely then Gods ministers as the Bishops and Priests be now what were the Bishops Priestes and Leuites then that were no prophetes were not they Gods ministers in spirituall matters also if yea then were not the Prophets in the like to your Bishops and Priestes that are as ye say only gods ministers now Make your tale for shame hang better togither and withall tell what you meane by this dubble shuffling Ye tolde vs before that your Bishops and Priestes now are like the Bishops and Priestes then and that not the Prophets but the Priestes had that prerogatiue which ye haue so often craked vpon your generall rule of iudgemeÌ„t whereby ye vrged then a supremacie not in the Prophets but in the Bishops Priests And now seing that ye caÌ„ not proue it in these examples where the Bishops Priests obey the Princes ordinance as his inferiours ye shift of the matter to the Prophetes say now your priests prelates succéede are like the Prophetes let go the former claime of priests But these are but your shifts for if the Prophets had this supreme gouernment then the priests had it not If it appertained to the hie priestes chayre so long as the priesthoode of Moses continued then it belonged not to the Prophetes and thus ye contrary your selfe But in very déede neither of theÌ„ both had it but the Prince vnder god They were both Gods ministers in their diuerse functioÌ„s and yet subiecte to their Princes as for the popish Bishops and priestes are like to neither of both The. 17. Diuision THe Bishop with the like example of Iosias concludeth his collection of the Princes in the Old Testament and herevppon maketh in effect this reason All these doinges of these kinges are commended as acceptable seruice and right in the sight of God But the clayming taking vppon them the supreme gouernment ouer the ecclesiasticall persons of all degrees the ruling gouerning and directing them in all their functions in al manner causes belonging to religion were the doings of all these kinges Ergo For Princes to clayme and take vppon them the like supreme gouernment is their right and acceptable seruice in the sight of God. The counterblast of master Stapleton to this diuision is thrée folde First to the example of Iosias Secondly to the argument Thirdly by setting vp newe issues and markes to improue all that the Bishop hath hitherto exemplified as vnsufficient to proue the issue To the first part sayth Master Stapleton King Iosias traueled full godly in suppressing Idolatrie by his kingly authoritie VVhat then so doe good catholike Princes also to plucke downe the Idolles that yee and your brethren haue of late set vp and yet none of them take them selues for supreme heades in all causes spirituall This is all that he aunswereth to the example of Iosias First where the Bishop sayd Iosias had the like care to the foresayde Princes for religion and vsed in the same sorte his Princely authoritie in reforming all abuses in al maner causes ecclesiastical To this aunswereth master Stapleton He traueled full godly in suppressing Idolatrie by his kingly authoritie As though this were a full aunswere denying or graunting the Bishops assertion or as thoughe besides the suppressing of Idolatrie he did nothing else Where as the scripture is plaine how hee also redde the lawe before all his subiects how he made the couenant with God that all hys subiectes shoulde walke after the Lorde and obserue all hys commaundements testimonies and ceremonies Howe hée sware them all to kéepe this couenant Howe he commaunded them to kéepe suche a solemne passeouer as was neuer kept by any of all the kings before him How the Priestes appoynted not themselues but he appoynted them in their offices Howe they exhorted not him but howe he exhorted them to prepare themselues sayth Lyra dutifully to celebrate with deuotion the solemnitie of the passeouer Howe he commaunded the arke to be set vp in the Sanctuarie and to beare it no more on their shoulders Howe he commaunded theÌ„ to minister to the Lord and to his people Israel How he commaunded theÌ„ to prepare them selues according to the houses of their auÌ„cesters in their orders aâ—… Dauid had appointed them How he coÌ„maunded them to minister in the sanctuary by their families and Leuiticall courses How he commaunded them to be sanctified and then to offer the passeouer How he commauÌ„ded them also to prepare or sanctifie the residue of their brethren And when al things were prepared how the Priestes kept their stations and the Leuites were in their orders according as the king had commaunded them And so saith the text after it hath reckened vp the manner of the Priests Leuites singers and porters ministeries all the seruice or worship was orderly accomplished in that day to keepe the passeouer and offer their burnt offrings vppon the aultare of the Lorde according to the commaundement of Iosias the King. All these things M. Stapl. were done by his authoritie and commaundement But all these thinges are matters and causes ecclesiasticall Ergo his authoritie and commaundement stretched furder than in suppressing Idolatrie yea â—…uen ouer the chiefest matters ecclesiasticall But all this had M. Stap. quite forgotten and therefore we must beare with him though he answere the Bishop only with this Iosias traueled full godly in suppressing Idolatrie by his kingly authoritie Wherein we sée also how doubtfully he speaketh for when he perceyued it could not be denied but that which he did he did by his kingly authoritie yet would he not say that he suppressed Idolatrie by
vse it throughout all your counterblast to make your continuall outrodes and vagaries quite from the matter No Flie is busier in buzzing on entrye dish than your Counterblast is blowing on euery flim â—…am tale If ye thinke ye maye be borne withall for the enlarging of your volume yet ye make your Readers loosely and altogither vnfruitfully to employ their labours carying them at roauers as ye say and at randon to â—…s ye had woont to do the people after all Hallowes from the very state of the question in controuersie For shame therefore vpbrayde not this to the Bishop of straying from the marke excepte you kéepe your selfe better to the marke or else shewe your Dispensation that yée may styll babble all besides the question of what impertinent tryfles yée please to descante vppon and will not suffer your aduersary once to wincke awrye nor to alleage anye thing thoughe it neuer so muche appertayne to the purpose if it doe not directly conclude the very state of the question This dealing master Stapleton is very vneuen If ye will deale vprightly call vpon the Bishop hardly so oft as ye will but then stande you for shame to your tackling to least an other come and call as fast on you to marke and regarde better the matter ye meddle withall But perhappes ye will say admitte that I ranne astray from the matter my selfe yet doth my faulte excuse the Byshoppes In déede it doth not Master Stapleton if hée bée faultie therein but it lesseneth hys and it maketh yours the greater and the more to your shame except yée be a verye impudent man for your fault herein is manifest and therefore deciphered oute vnto you in one of your common places If ye be belied there purge your selfe whiche tâ—…ll ye doe the more ye call vppon the Bishop to kéepe him to his marke he that shall marke your dealing shall wish you had either lesse impudencie or more remembrance of your selfe Neuerthelesse since ye so sharply chalenge the Bishop that all his examples draw nothing neare the mark but runne at randon and shoote all at Rouers I pray you sir call to your remembraunce what was the marke and issue in question betwene them was it not this that if the Bishop by any of the foure abouesayde meanes coulde make proofe to master Feckenham that any Emperor or Empresle King or Queene may clay me or take vpon them any such gouernment in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes that then he would yéelde Was not this the state of their question accorded they not on this issue and ought not the Bishop to direct all his examples to proue this And if he proue this whether he shotte at Buttes or Rouers hath he not hytte the marke and what woulde ye haue more Nowe that he hath done this is plainely proued by euery of these examples and that not onely as the wordes of the issue inforce that they tooke vpon them some suche gouernement in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes which being prooued is ynough to discharge the Bishop of straying from his matter but also that they daymed and tooke vppon them suche supreme gouernement in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes And you haue counterblasted nothing to the contrary that were able to remoue these prooues from this marke and issue sauing your facing and bracing of the matter and a number of blynde pelting and foreworne shiftes except ye haue any better behinde to come For all these shiftes hitherto notwithstanding the Bishoppes examples are both directly directed to the issue and directly and fully prooue the same And wher 's ye findâ—… faulte with straggling from it ye touch not him but wring your selfe by the nose For ensample whereof I remitte the Reader to your common place thereon or to spare his paynes and go no further than euen here to marke the markes that your selfe set vp and conferre them with the issue betwéene the Bishoppe and master Feckenham and the Reader shall soone discerne howe farre of purpose ye stray from it yea from those false markes also that your selfe set vp before And yet ye crie the Bishop strayes from the marke and will the Reader to fixe his eye thereon But herein ye play as the common people say the Lapwing or Pewet doeth who when they seeke hir Neast draweth them still further and further from it wyth hir noyse and flittering about them crying as the simple people imagine here is it here is it when it is nothing neare it And euen as they conceyue of the Pewet so do you with vs with great noyse and earnestnesse bidding vs regarde and set before our eyes the very state of the question and busily pretende to tell vs wherein lyeth all the chiefe question when vnder the cloake and credite of this your earnestnesse ye carie the reader quite away from the question and issue in controuersie to runne vp and downe after such newe and so many questions that the Reader dared as a man in a maze shoulde neyther perceyue the true question in déede nor finde out the weakenesse and falsehoode of your cause nor well knowe where himselfe is become But that he maye winde himselfe the better oute of this your Laberinthe let him as is sayde before directe his eye euer on the issue betweene the parties and then shall hée still see whereaboutes hée is and howe farre or neare not onely the Bishop is but you also are to or from the matter The issue as is before sayde is this That any Emperor or Empresle King or Queene claymed or tooke vpon them any such gouernment By this issue in all his examples hath the Byshoppe directed him selfe that Moses Iosue Dauid Salomon Iosaphat Ezechias and Iosias did take vpon them suche gouernment But all these were Kings and Princes of Gods people commended of God for their godly gouernance Therfore Emperours and Empresses Kings Quenes may and ought to take such gouernment vpon them This being alwayes the Bishops conclusion wherein strayed he from the issue But nowe come you ruffling in with Nine newe issues for aduauntage not one of them all béeing the verie issue and state of the question in controuersie and yet you crie the Bishop draweth nothing nigh the marke True in déede master Stapleton he draweth nothing neare the markes that you haue set vp for the nigher hee shoulde drawe to them he shoulde drawe the further from the question betwéene master Feckenham and him as you doe of purpose in all these your markes to deceyue and beguâ—…le the simple Reader that thinkes ye meane good truth when ye â—…rte so often on the question and runne so farre from the same For ensample was this I pray you good master Stapleton to vse your owne phâ—…ase the issue and question betwéene them whether these Kings acknowledged or not acknowledged the highe Priest â—…t is true and the Byshoppe demeth not that they did agnise the highe Priest euerie one of them
But followeth it thereon that they agnised him to bee their supreme heade or gouernour This woulde require to bée prooued with some better Logycke As for these examples argue all the contrary that though the Prinâ—…s agnised alway one to be the chiefe Priest and also agnised all other inferiour Priestes Leuites Porters Singers in theyr offices yet all those highe and lowe whatsoeuer acknowledged agayne the supreme gouernement of commaunding appoynting ordring directing and ouerseeing them to doe all their duties dutifully to appertayne not to themselues but to theyr soueraigne Princes And the Princes as theyr seuerall examples witnesse tooke it vppon them in commaunding appoynting placing and displacing all and euery one yea the highest Priest himselfe And therefore where ye say to the Bishop I pray you good M. Horne bring forth that king that did not agnise one supreme heade and chiefe iudge in all causes ecclesiasticall among the Iewes I meane the highe Priest wherein lyeth all our chiefe question Yee haue not yet done it nor neuer shall doe it And ye coulde shewe anie it were not worth the shewing For ye shoulde not shewe it in anie good King as beeing an open breache of Gods lawe giuen to him by Moses as this your doings are an open breache of Christ and his Churches lawe and giuen to vs in the newe Testament These be but your crakes and outfacings master Stapleton The Bishop hath done it euidently that ye require and the scripture is manifest in all these Kings ensamples Nor they were any wicked Kings nor breakers of Gods law giuen by Moses or any other But euen Moses and all the rest were mainteiners of Gods law giuen to them and therfore are worth the shewing Your conclusion that our doings are an open breache of Christ and his Churches lawe giuen to vs in the new Testament I maye well ouerpasse without aunswere dismissing it to your common place of slaunders not onely of vs but of Christ and his Churche and his newe Testament also till ye shewe in what place of the newe Testiment Christ and his Church whom ye ioyne togither in this law making did make and giue vs this law that either our godly Christian Princes should not haue this supreme gouernment ouer their dominions or that your Pope should haue it ouer all the vniuersall Churche And when ye haue proued this proue also this your first new marke to be the verie state and issue here in question betwene the Bishop and master Feckenham or else agnise with shame your selfe that ye runne at randon loosely and altogither vnfruitfully haue employed yours and your Readers labour for all so lyke a Faulconer ye crie marke marke neuer so muche Your first false marke béeing thus reared vppe yée sette vppe a seconde muche lesse lyke the issue betwéene them but much more lyke the malicious slaunders among you saying Againe what president haue ye shewed of any good King among the Iewes that with his laitie altered and abandoned the vsuall Religion a thousande yeares and vpwarde customably from age to age receyued and embraced and that the high Priest and the whole clergie gainsaying all such alterations If ye haue not shewed this ye haue strayed farre from the marke Whether this be the marke or no or whether maister Stapleton of purpose straggle from it the conference of the issue wyth this will soone declare there is no néede to fette the highe Priestes iudgement as in a doubtfull matter Euery childe maye sée not onely howe farre they differ but also what an heape of slaunders on a plumpe he burdeneth like an vngracious subiect his most gracious soueraigne withall As for the Quéenes Maiesties most godly doings are very well confirmed by these examples And in proufe thereof the Bishop euer kept him closely to hys marke that the supreme gouernment which hir Maiestie taketh on hir is none other but such as they before did take on them Hir highnesse hath abandoned olde inueterate errors crept in besides and contrary to the worde of God she saw the ensample in these godly Kings before hir whose doings therein she followed Hir highnesse hath by the aduice and instruction of hir godly learned Clergie reformed religion according to Gods word although the Popish clergie were negligent and gainesayde the same she sawe the ensample in these kings before hir how by their godly learned prophets aduice and instructions according to Gods word they reformed religion although the Priests Leuits were negligent or withstood the same And this hitteth home the marke Any such gouernment syth both their supreme gouernments be so like And therfore in that you charge hir maiestie otherwise is nothing â—…eare the marke but is your owne reprochfull and very trayterouâ—… slaunder The ioly number of a thousande yeares and vpwarde of your vsuall religion is but your common vaunte and what if I sayde your outfacing lie also to deceyue the simple with a countenance of antiquitie the noueltie and late hatching whereof is dayly the more ye striue the more discouered to be nothing so auncient as ye pretende of a thousande yeares and vpwarde Of which number the most part the originals béeing well boulted out may come backe againe halfe a thousande yeares and more downwarde with shame ynoughe But I sée master Stapleton ye haue hoysted vp your Religion so hie that it staggreth againe and higher for falling downeright ye can not get it It hath béene ye say the vsuall Religion a thousande yeares and vpwarde that is a fayre tyme master Stapleton God saue it But what meane ye by this indefinite terme vpwarde Meane you it hath continued a thousande yeares and a little more Alacke Master Stapleton I am sorie for it and for your paynes taking till your armes ake to lyft it vp so highe and yet it commes too too short to be any true Religion For if it be the true Religion of Iesus Christe whie say yee not boldely man it is the vsuall Religion of fifteene hundreth yeares and vpwarde But eyther your armes are too shorte or your heart fayles you to lifte it vpwarde so highe for then the worde of GOD woulde soone controll you and beate it downe agayne And therefore you are contente with a lower sayle to crake that your Religion is yet a thousande yeares olde and vpwarde But as that is a false crake so is it also a vayne crake and serues not the turne yea admitting it were so old as ye boast 1000 â–ª yeares and vpward yet ought it of all godly Princes to be remooued and pulled downe againe except it be the Religion of fiftene hundreth yeares and vpwarde Eâ—…amsi Angelus docuerit aliud Euangelium quà m quod accepistis anaâ—…hema sit Althoughe an Aungell from heauen should teache any other doctrine than you haue receyued let him be accursed The Religion that the Quéenes Maiestie hath set forth thankes be to God therefore is the religion of 1500. yeares and vpward
ecclesiastical liuings titles were any Byshop or any member of Christs Church or no euen by your ecclesiastical Canons of which one beginneth NoÌ„ omneâ—… episcopi sunt episcopi al Byshops are not Bishops c. 2. Q 7. Likewise Bernard the Canonist saith Spiritualis gladius ex leui causa non tantum per alios c. the spirituall Sworde mouing and nourishing warres of a light cause not only by other but also by it selfe contrary to right is become a souldiers Sword. Erasmus saith the Popes them selues are rather the successors of such as Iulius Caesar of Alexander Xerxes Croesus and of mightie theeues than the Apostles successors And that there are none so pernicious enemies to the Churche as the wicked Popes that suffer in silence Christe to growe out of knowledge and tie him to gainefull lawes and deflowre him with wrested interpretations and murder him with their pestilent life Call ye these spirituall byshops or rather as Christ said théeues and robbers painted sepulchers rauening wolues or as he called Iudas the Deuill him selfe For why beeing thus degenerate from the office of a Bishop should they haue the name of bishops as their owne law saith Si repriueris nec nomeÌ„ habere mereris It thou want the thing â–ª thou deseruest not the name And as Christe him selfe doth say If the salte haue lost his saltnesse what shal be seasoned therwith it is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out to be troden downe of men These are the spirituall Pastors of the popish Church yeathe Popes them selues being worsse than lay men and yet will be Lordes of all ecclesiasticall liuings lay mens liuings too But I will reserue this matter till ye be disposed to commune furder thereon for they touch néerer the ouerthrows of your Popes claime more decipher the hauiour of his Clergie than they come néere the issue of the Princes gouernment The sixte marke that ye set vp is this VVhat good induction can ye bring from the doings of the Kinges of the old lawe to iustifie that Princes now may make Bishops by letters Patents and that for such and so long time as should please them as either for terme of yeres monethes weekes or dayes What an impudent and too too shamefull a sclaunderer you may be marked to be appeareth by this marke M. St. If Bishops haue their letters patents from the Prince for their Bishoprike had they them not also froÌ„ Princes euen in the most popishe time but that they are made for suche termes as ye write you wilfully belie your Soueraigne The Prince in deede at all times if they do not their dutie and so shal be thought vnworthie may orderly remoue inhibite or punish them And of this the Bishop hath alleaged good proofe in the old Testament And yet if there were no proofe of it there what matter can ye make thereon that your Popes did not practise who licenced deposed restrayned limited and that for such and so long time as should please them As Florobellus saithe of the Pope Item facere potest Praelatum ad tempus He can also make a Prelate for a time And can ye finde such bulles of leade from the doings of the high Priest of the olde lawe If ye can not this marke ouerturnes your Popes supremacie more than it commeth any thing nere the Quéenes The Seuenth marke VVhat good motiue can ye gather by their regiment that they did visit Bishops and Priestes and by their lawes restrayned them to excercise any iurisdiction ouer their flockes to visit their slockes to reforme them to order or correct them without their especiall authoritie and commission thereunto yea to restrayne them by an inhibition from preaching which yee confesâ—…e to be the peculiar function of the Clergie exempted from all superioritie of the Prince This marke hath two partes For the former so farre as ye say true the Bishop hath gathered good motiues by their regiment that they did visite Bishops and Priestes and by their lawes restrained them to exercise any iurisdiction ouer their flockes to visit their flockes to refourme to order and correct them without their especiall commission therevnto for what else was their ordeyning and allowing them their commaunding ordering appointing and directing them Except ye meane hereby for ye spâ—…ake it very subtlely that the Bishops could do none of those functions that belonged to their office after they were appointed therto by the Prince but that for euery thing they must haue a speciall commission and than it is a captiouse sclaunder the Prince doth not so But what belongeth to the Prince herein and what to the Bishop in either of their Iurisdictions is to be considered in the fourth booke Sauing that still ye will augmeÌ„t your counterblast by the way of preuention Your other parte of this marke is a manifest sclaunder The Prince restrayneth no Bishop nor preacher with any simple inhibition from his office of preaching but Secundum quid inhibiting your popish seducers from preaching their traditions and erroneous doctrines such false Prophetes as Christ biddeth vs beware of If ye would preach the onely truthe ye might haue good leaue to preache it Now to stoppe the mouthes of false Idolatrouse Priestes the Bishop in these examples hath brought good proofe hereof no preaching is simplie forbidden but Papistes sectaries and other of noughtie or suspected life or doctrine and therefore where in the margine ye biddâ—… your reader Note here is nothing for him to note but your notorieâ—…se lie and your notable argument that ye make thereon Preaching is the peculiar function of the Clergie exempted from the Prince Ergo The Prince hath not authoritie to restrayne a noughtie preacher nor to inhibite him from preaching false doctrine Proue your argument a little better M. Stapleton and then bidde vs note it els is there litle to note in it but much to note in you For your Eight marke say you VVhat thinke ye that ye can persuade vs also that Bishops and Priestes payed their first fruites and tenthes to their Princes yea and that both in one yeare as they did for a while in Kinge Henries dayes Verely Ioseph would not suffer the very heathen Priests which onely had the bare names of Priests to paie either tythes or fines to Pharao their Prince yea rather he founde them in time of famine vppon the common store This marke Master Stapleten of paying first fruites and tenthes to the Prince is bothe wide from the Bishops marke and mere frinolouse For supposing they payde none yet this supreme gouernement still remayned entiere and whole to the Prince nor the paying it to the Prince maketh him supreme gouernour any whitte the more It was an order taken ye know in the time of your Popes superstition and that not long since neither vnder pretence of helping the Church in hir warres against the Saracens but in very déede
both the Scripture S. Hierome maketh no differeÌ„ce but only the custome institution of the Church The Apostle saith he writing to the Philippenses cap. 1. saith With the Bishops and the Deacons by them vnderstanding the Elders sith in one citie as in Philippos many Bishops ought not to be Agayne Act. 2. he saith Looke to your selues and to all the flocke in which the holy ghost hath placed you to be Bishops And he spoke vnto them of the onely citie of Ephesus But this appeareth more expresly to Titus the. 1. Where he saith for this cause I haue left thee at Crete that thou shouldest correct those things that want ordeine Elders through out the cities eueÌ„ as I haue apointed to thee if any be blamelesse the husbaÌ„d of one wife And streight he setteth vnder it a B. must be blamelesse And whoÌ„ before he named an Elder he calleth now a Bishop And in the. 4. of the. 1. to Timothie Dispise not saith he the grace of God which is giuen to thee through the imposition of the handes of an Elder that is to say of a Bishop S. Paule called him selfe an Elder when he was the Bishop that ordeined him Thus far more at large DuraÌ„dus concluding at leÌ„gth Sic ergo Thus therfore saith S. Hierome that a Bishop and an Elder Olim fueruÌ„t nominâ—… synonymâ—… c. were in the old time diuerse names betokening one thing indiffereÌ„tly and also of one administration â–ª bicause the Churches were ruled by the commune Counsell of the Priestes But for the remedie of a scisme least each one drawing the Churche after him should breake hir it was ordeyned that one should be aboue the rest et quâ—…ad nomeÌ„ c. And so far forth as stretcheth to the name that he onely should be called Bishop and that so farre as stretcheth to the administration of some Sacraments and Sacramentals they should be reserued to him by the custome coÌ„stitutioÌ„ of the Church And this would Hierome expresly 93. Dist. cap. legimuâ—… in Esa. super epistolam ad Tit. recitatur Dist. 93. cap. Olim presbyterâ—… c. Consuetudo aut institutio Ecclesiae potest dare Iurisdictiâ—…nem sed non potestatem ordinis aut consecrationis quare c. He therefore that counteth this erroneouse or perilous let him impute this to Hierome out of whose saying in the fore alleaged chapter Legimus in Esa. the foresaide authorities are takeÌ„ VVhere also he putteth an exaÌ„ple That it is of a Bishop in respect of priests as of an Archdeacon in respect of Deacons vnlesse the Deacons choose one among them selues whom they call Archdeacon c. In the end DuraÌ„dus recoÌ„ciling Hierome saith and the authorities alleaged by Hierome withstande it not bicause according the name and the truth of the thing euery Bishop is an Elder and on the other parte so farre as stretcheth to the name euery Elder hauing cure may be called a Bishop as superattendent on other although the consecratioÌ„ of a Bishop or of the chiefe Priest be larger than of a simple Priest or Elder but peraduenture in the pâ—…imitiue Churche they made not such force in the difference of names as they do now And therfore they called a Bishop euery one that had a cure Thus writeth Durandus of the auncient Fathers opinions And will ye compt him or them Aerians too And this also doth your institution in Coâ—…aine Councell confesse N on est tamen putandum VVe must not for all this thinke that he ordeined Bishops another order from Priests for in the Primitiue church Bishops and Priests were all one The which the Epistles of Peter and Paule the Apostles S. Hierome alâ—…o and almost all the auÌ„cient ecclesiastical writers do witnesse And chiefly that place of the first Epistle of S. Peter the â—…ist chapter is euident to declare this For when Peter had said The Elders that are amoÌ„g you I also an Elder with you beseech which am also a witnesse of the passions of Christ and paâ—…taker of the glory to come that shal be reuealed He ioyned vnder it Feede or guide the slocke of Christ that is among you and ouersee it not by compulsion but willingly according to god VVherein it is spokeÌ„ more expresly in the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say Superattendent from whence also the name of Bishop is drawne VVherefore Priesthood is esteemed the highest order in the Churche In the meane time no bodie is ignorant that this order is distinguished againe by a certayne order of offices and dignities Thus do your Schoolemen and Diuines witnesse First that in the Substance Order or Character as they terme it there is no difference betweene a Priest and a Bishop Secondly that the difference is but of Accidents and circumstances as degrées of dignitie Iurisdiction Honour c. Thirdly that in the Primitiue Church this difference was not knowne but they were méerely all one and the same Fourthly that this difference was taken vp by custome consent and ordinance of the Uniuersall Church when it once began to be dispersed in al the world Fiftly that it was done for the auayding of factions and sectes that grewe in the time of the ministers equalitie euen anon after the Primitiue Churche and some of them in the Apostles time But quite contrary to this Iudgement of your Diuines are all your Canonistes your Diuines make seuen orders Et in hoc saith Angelus de clauisio concordant coÌ„muniter theologs On this the diuines agree commonly but the Canonists holde that there are nine orders according to nine Hierarchies that is to wite the first notch or psalmist and the order of a Bishop and that the first notch is an order the text is in C. cum contingit ibi do Anto. canonistâ—… de 〈◊〉 quali or similiter quod Episcopatus est ordo quod imprimatur Caracter indiâ—…io meo facit inconuincibiliter tex in C. 1. de ordinatis ab Episcopo c. sic secundum Canonist as erunt nouem ordines And so according to the canonistes there shal be nine orders Great ado your Scoolemen and Canonistes make about this in so much that Aerius heresie will draw verie néere to one of you light on which side it shall But your selfe may holde on both sides M. Stapleton being both a Bachelour in the one and a student in the other As for vs ye do falsly burden vs Our doing is apparant therein acknowleging all due obedience and reuerence to our Bishops But as for your Popishe Clergie there is in déede litle differeÌ„ce in this point or none which barrell is better herring B. or Priest both starke nought or rather neither of them eyther true Priest or B. by S. Paules description Secondly you obiect that Aerius said there was no difference betwene him that fasted and him that did not fast wherein also as in the other your conscience haue ye any knoweth that ye
Concerning Berengarius bicause your slaunder both of him and vs in the controuersie of the sacrament is confuted by the learned trauayles of those that fully haue answered all your cauillations therin I wil now passe it ouer as vn worthie further answere Only I bid you looke to it your selues that charge him with heresie least that reâ—…nfation that your Pope coÌ„pelled him to make sauer not as euen your glosse theron doth warne of a greater heresie than you lay to him Where ye aske vs what we say to the Paulicians that sayde these wordes of Christe Take eaâ—…e this is my body are not to be vnderstanded of his bodie or the bread wine vsed at the celebration of our Lords maundie but of the holy scriptures which the Priest should take at Christes handes and deliuer and distribute to the people I answere let the truth of this obiection to vs be a measure on Gods name to all the rest and as men finde you true or false herein so estéeme you in the other For my part I scarce can tell what wordes I should vse vnto you vnlesse ye will giue me leaue to vse your owne that except ye had a face harder than any horne M. St. yea harder than any yron staple except the deuill at your backe prompted lyes vnto you for these be your owne termes you woulde neuer for very shame charge vs herewith Your selfe knowe saue that ye are hyred as Balaam was to speake cursed slaunders contrary to your conscience that we hold no such opinion but affirme euen the â—…at contrary That those words of Christ take eate this is my bodie are to be vnderstanded both of his bodie and of the bread and wine also Both which you say the Paulicians denie and we confesse and beleue both Only the question on the former part betwene you and vs is of the maner of the bodies presence which we with the fathers say is sacramitall spiritual you say with the Capernaits is natural carnal As for the other part of the bread wine you come a great deale nearer the Paulicians than we The Paulicians say you did say these wordes of Christ take eat this is my body are not to be vnderstaÌ„ded of bread wine And you say also these words are not to be vnderstanded of bread and wine for there is no bread wine there to vnderstand theÌ„ vpoÌ„ Thus herein you the PauliciaÌ„s agrée togither But we say the contrary to you both they are vnderstanded both of bread and wine And so Christ plainly speaketh calling further the wine to be vnderstoode the better contrary to you and the Paulicians the fruite of the Grape and the bread which we breake sayth Saint Paule not the fleshe which we do â—…asticare as you say champe and chawe it gnashing the bones and the bloud running about the teeth as ye caused Berengarius to confesse This is a grosser Heresie than that of the Paulicians and yet are you nearer the Paulicians to than we But what should make you obiect this heresie to vs there is no cause that I can see except ye enuie at this that at the ministration of the Sacrament the holy scriptures are read that the people may vnderstande the true institution of it and celebrate the Lordes death till he come And that in your sacrament of the altar as ye call it there is no holye scriptures read that the people may vnderstande but onely the wordes are mumbled vp to your selues that the people neither heare nor know them And if you say yet be ye not like the Paulicians herein it may well be for ye be rather like Magicians murmuring vp a charme than like Paulicians or any bodie else I know Where next ye demaunde what we say to Claudius and Vigilantius that denyed the inuocation of Saints the blessed Reliques and the vse of lightes and other ceremonies in the Church First to Claudius I aunswere that I can say no more than Alphonsus doth For he reckoneth vp one Claudius and nameth another Iuo Carnotensis cited out of Thomas Walden which Iuo he confesseth he had not séene You father it on an other called Ionas whome also I confesse I haue not séene nor am greatly curious to searche him out For if he denied those thinges or any of them no otherwise than we do it will be hard for you to proue him therefore an Heretike As for Uigilantius opinions on these things are manifest in Saint Hieroms inuectiues and conteyne no Heresie that I can perceyue He misliked greatly and spoke against diuerse abuses betweene whom and saint Hierome thereaboutes fell out foule language Insomuch that diuerse misliked Saint Hiâ—…romes lacke of modestie But letting him chide with his aduersarie let vs go to the matter And first for inuocation The scripture acknowledgeth no kind of inuocation but only of God Laudabilem inuocabo dominum c. I will make sayth Dauid inuocation on the Lorde that is to be prayâ—…ed and I shall be safe from mine enimies In tribulatione mea inuâ—…cabo dominum ad deum meum claâ—…abo c. In my trouble I will make inuocation vpon the Lord and I will crie vnto my god Inuocabit is me â—…iuetis saith god Call vpon me and ye shall liue The Lorde is riche to all that call vpon him sayth S. Paule VVho so euer calleth on the name of the Lord shall be saued Thus sayth the scripture all ouer for the inuocation of god As for any other inuocation the Scripture admitteth none no not of the holy Patriarkes Tu enim pater noster Abrahâ—…m 〈◊〉 nos c. For thou art our father sayth the Prophete Esay as for Abraham knewe not vs and Israell is ignorant of vs thou God art our father and redeemer No doubt Abraham was and is aâ—… good a Saint and much better than many in your Popes Calender of whome some are doubted to be Deuilâ—… in hell that are inuocated for Saints in heauen yea Abraham is called Pater omnium crâ—…dentium The father of all the faythfull and yet in this poynt of inuocation Abraham is no father at all Tu deus pater noster onely God is our father Abraham is not inuocated yea he is by name excepted and that as ignorant of vs â–ª If Abraham then the father of the Saints haue no priuelege yea léese his priuelege of fatherhoode in this behalfe of inuocation what shall we thinke of all the children of Abraham the Saints of God that haue succéeded him that they are to be inuocated or not rather conclude thereon if inuocation be not to be made to Abraham then inuocation is to be made to no Saint but all and onely vnto god And the reason is this God is a iealous God of his glorie and will not communicate any part thereof with any other But the greatest glory that we can giue to God
or no. Now ye may conclude sayth master Stapleton that there is some regiment that Princes may take vpon them in causes Ecclesiasticall Thankes be giuen to God master Stapleton that yet now at the length contrary to all your felowes to all your owne wranglings hitherto the force of the truth hath enforced you to yelde thus much to the B. ye graunt Now that Princes haue some regiment in ecclesiasticall causes which hitherto except the making a law of burning or punishing be an eccl. cause ye haue altogither denied vnto Princes But what is this some regiment that ye graunt theÌ„ now for neither we graunt them al regiment but some regiment also that is to say a supreme regiment And you also denie not in your marginall note that they may take vpon theÌ„ in ecclesiastical matters supreme gouernmeÌ„t authority power care but not say you such supreme gouernment as the othe prescribeth so that here we both agrée of supreme gouernment but the kinde of supreme gouernment is denied And to specifie your meaning herein how large a kind ye graunt or denie ye adde he should haue concluded in all things and causes else he concludeth not agaynst you signifying that you deny to them a supreme gouernment in all things causes ecclesiastical but ye graunt them a supreme gouernment authoritie power and care in things and causes ecclesiasticall First M. Stap. this is but a iangling and shifting quarell in wordes about things and causes ecclesiasticall and all things and causes ecclesiasticall For not onely the Bishop when he speaketh so indefinitely vnderstandeth all but also it is an ordinarie speach allowed in Logike in all things that be naturall or necessarie where the indefinite is counted as much as the vniuersall As to say a man is a reasonable creature or man is mortall is as much as precisely to say all men and euery man is reasonable and mortall And the saying in the next diuision he came to fulfill the lawe and the Prophetes is all one with this he came to fulfill all the lawe and all the Prophetes And likewise this giue vnto God that belongeth to God and to Caesar that belongeth to Caesar is as much to say as this giue vnto God all that belongeth to God c. and euen your selfe doe commonly speake thus indefinitely ecclesiasticall matters when ye meane all ecclesiasticall matters though now when ye be thus â—…iuen to graunt the effect of the matter yet would ye find some shift of descant to frustrate all the matter and say If ye meane of such regiment as ye preteÌ„d where ye know well ynough none other is ment ye make your reckoning without your host as a man may say and conclude before ye haue brought any proufe that they ought or may take vpon them such gouernment Whether this some regiment be such regimeÌ„t or such gouernment for thus M. St. ye loue in termes to dally though the Bishop hath proued it sufficiently and you haue graunted it standing onely like a daintie Nicie besetter on this quaint poynt in things not in all things yea whether this Nice restraint defeate the full proufe of the question in controuersie betwene master Feckenham and the Bishop shal appeare M. St. by calling them â—…ath coram to recken better with their host that is as you haue like a thriftie tapster called vpon so oft before though still ye brought in false reckonings to set before them and mark the issue that they condiscended vpon that is to weâ—…e Any such gouernmeÌ„t in ecclesiastical causes Lo here the demaund of the hoste himselfe be requireth but any such gouernmeÌ„t and that without putting in all in the reckoning Where therfore ye grauÌ„t the B. hath proued it in some eccl. causes which satisfieth the demaund of any ecclesiast causes euen according to your owne wrangling ye confesse the Bishop hath concluded the very issue that was concluded vpon Thus master St. euen by your owne reckoning the B reckoned with his host at the full and hath payed and satisfied that he promised and M. Feckenham required But nowe looke you what reckoning you will make to your friendes that haue here brought your selfe so farre in the lashe that taking vpon you to impugne the Princes gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes ye haue graunted and yelded to it How will your credite holde with your friends yea how will your reckoning hold with it self here ye haue grauÌ„ted some regimeÌ„t yea supreme gouernment though not such supreme gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes In the last Chap. ye would graunt theÌ„ nothing but punishment of those whom you had condemned which is no ecclesiastical matter at all to hang or burne a man And yet ye gaue them no regiment much lesse supreme regiment therein neyther For you would haue al the appointing whoÌ„ he shal punish the prince hath nothing else to do but to execute him whom you deliuer vp vnto him which agréeth nothing with this that now ye haue grauÌ„ted least of all with that ye further grauÌ„t saying For though I graunt you all your examples ye haue alleaged and that the doings of the olde Testament were figures of the new and the saying of Esay that kings should be nourishing fathers to the Church and all things else that ye here alleage yet all will not reach home no not Constantine the great his example How agréeth this graunt master Stap. with all that ye haue done all this while Why haue ye denied the Bishops ensamples heretofore of Moyses Iosue Dauid c. and made such a long and earnest a do in the matter to be grauÌ„ted at length Did ye stand in it then to dilate your booke or do ye graunt it now to bragge of your skill or did ye resist the truth then contrary to your conscience repent ye now or be ye forced to grauÌ„t with some colour that ye cannot for shame in plaine speach denie howsoeuer it be many odde reckonings will fall out in your account against your selfe although you neuer â—…ecken with your host for the matter Ye graunt the saying of Esay also that Kings shoulde be nourishing fathers to the Church and all things else that the Bishop here alleageth yet will not all reach home no not Constantine the great his example VVill not all this reach home Master Stap. to proue the issue that euen your selfe do confesse the Bishop hath alreadie proued For that is the home that it ought tâ—… reach vnto by master Feckenhams demaund But go to measure it with a true yerde master Stap. and ye shall see it fayre and easily without any stretching at al reach euen as full home as you besides can require euen for the supreme gouernment of all maner ecclesiasticall causes looke what ye recken most vppon and that is euen the féeding with the worde vnder which the Sacraments also are comprehended not that he is the Minister of the worde and Sacraments as
which later clause I am assured doth muche more take away a supreme regiment in all causes ecclesiasticall than necessarily by force of any wordes binde vs to pay yea any tribute to our Prince This quarell M. St. is an euident vntruthe for the Byshop hath not left out the other part of the senteÌ„ce but mentioned it in the next words immediatly following Admonishing notwithstanding al princes and people that Cesars authoritie is not infinite or without limits for such authoritie belongeth only to the king of al kings but bounded and circumscribed within the boundes assigned in Gods worde Which words of the bishop not only make playn relation vnto but also comprehende the sentence folowing quae dei deo and giuing vnto God that perteineth to God. And this limitation youre selfe anon afterwarde confesse that the Byshop specifieth though héere ye denie it according to the maner of your quarelling disposition But whereto M. Stap. moue ye this quarell This latter clause I am assured say you dothe muche more take away a supreme regiment in causes ecclesiasticall than necessarily by force of any words binde vs to pay yea any tribute to our Prince Are ye so well assured héereof M. Stap but by your leaue for all ye be so well assured if this sentence muste be vnderstoode of may and not of ought then perchance it may neither take away that supremacie that belongeth to the Prince nor that supremacie may hinder our duetie to god Yea what if this same may or might and ought not may become an argument for all popish traytors agaynst their Princes teaching subiectes that they may giue them their dueties but they ought not For I am assured on the other side that the Priestes and Byshops to their Princes yea the Byshop of Rome him selfe to the Emperoures as you vnderstande Cesar haue yéeded their seruice obedieÌ„ce yea and their tributes also ere this howe soeuer since they haue wrong them selues from that olde obedience that they ought to Cesar. And if to subtracte this ye may thus dally on the former clause why may not all Papistes for the later clause of the sentence to vpholde their honour of Images their inuocation of Saincts their owne traditions and vnwritten verities against Gods expresse worde and commandement alleage for them that they may giue to God that that belongeth to God but not that they ought as bounde thereto necessarily by force of any wordes For this I am sure of also that these wordes of Christ do make no more mencion of dutie toward the one parte of the sentence than to the other the one comprehendeth not may and the other ought but though the dutie to God be greater and more excellent than the dutie towarde the Prince yea and boundeth it as the Bishop saide yet dutie belongeth vnto hothe and both ought to haue it And we be not here licenced but flatly coÌ„maunded to giue that that is dutie to eyther partie The wordes are manifest 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Reddite Render you that vnto Caesar that is Caesars and that that is Gods to God. So that if reddite Caesari quae sunt Caesaris be no more but this ye may giue vnto Cesar those things that are Cesar then may reddite Deo quâ—… sunt Dei be also by as good Latine ye may giue to God those things that are Gods. What figuratiue diuinitie yea what figuratiue Grammer call ye this wherof ye crake so much and finde such fault in others and can not sée in your selfe how your Diuinitie either marres your Grammer or your GraÌ„mer your Diuinitie And yet both must go for excellent good for why you are assured of the matter that the imperatine mode is in the one clause no more than the potentiall commanding to do is no more but to say ye may do though in the other clause it retaineth still his force Besides this good Diuinitie that we be not necessarily by force of any wordes bounde to pay yea any tribute to our Princes and so may denie them both that and all duties else as do the Papists when they be disposed to refuse their lawfull obedience to their soueraignes as you your Louanistes do This is a holy diuinitie Did euer any of the ancient Diuines giue this libertie to subiects against their Princes or thus expounde these wordes and not rather al with one coÌ„sent yea your popish writers hereoÌ„ also so many as I haue read gather here vpoÌ„ a necessary dutie of al subiects obedieÌ„ce tributes honor al other prehemineÌ„ces beloÌ„ging to Princes chieâ—…y on this senteÌ„ce write of purpose vpon this coÌ„mon place of subiects dutiful obedience to their magistrates you make so light a matter of it that ye say it bindeth vs not so much as to pay any tribute at al vnto theÌ„ But that all the world may sée how falsely ye wrest the wordes of Christ ye shal sée some of the fathers iudgments on these words giue vnto Cesar that that is Cesars that they inferre not that they may giue but that they ought to giue them Tertullian an ancient Father saith Alius est denarius queÌ„ Câ—…sari debeo c. It is an other penie that I owe to Cesar that pertaineth to him wherof it was theÌ„ moued that is to say a tributarie penie due to be paide of tributarie not of free meÌ„ I pray ye M. St. what is that English of Debeo of debitus Origen likewise an auÌ„cieÌ„t Father saith In teÌ„pore ergo Christi c. In the time therefore of Christ when they were commanded to giue tribute to the Romaines there was a thought couÌ„sel amoÌ„g the Iewes UtruÌ„ deberent whether they ought that were Gods people his portion to giue Princes tribute or rather take armes for their libertie except they were suffred to liue as they lusted And the story telleth that one Iudas a Galilean of whom Luke mencioneth in the Actes of the Apostles drawing away the multitude of the Iewes taught NoÌ„ oportere they ought not to giue tribute to Cesar call Cesar lord But he that was at that time the tetrarch hastned to perswade the people that they should regard the present state not wilfully take armes against the stronger But be coÌ„tent to giue tribute And truly the worde of this present gospel not in deede manifestly yet it shewes these things But he that diligently coÌ„sidereth the sense of the present wordes shal finde this yea eueÌ„ in this place For the Phariseis had not had occasion being willing to take Christ in his speach sending their disciples with the HerodiaÌ„s to aske him whether it were lawfull to giue Cesar tribute or no if it had bene manifest amoÌ„gst them that they ought not to giue it that there had bene an agreement of all their willes that they should not giue it c. Thus we sée that the question they moued to Christ was whether
Cesar then Emperour and stretch no furder If it determine nothing but money If it inferre no necessitie or dutie but only giue licence how then did these Fathers alleage vrge this sentence against these Princes and how do you alleage them against the Bishop do ye not sée how ye speake against your selfe but I forbeare you till ye come to your appointed place Although furder here I might admonish you since ye reherse here no wordes of those authours but referrâ—… yourselfe to another fitter occasion not to stande dalying in so often preuentions and rehersalls and all to no purpose but onely to encrease your volume Much lesse to triumphe therevppon till ye haue sette downe some proufe either of them or of other to confute the Bishop for els ye do but triumphe before the victorie and such commonly in the ende do lâ—…se the victorie For hitherto ye haue alleaged nothing against the Bishops allegation and yet say you This ill happe hath M. Horne euen with his first authoritie of the newe Testament extraordinarily and impertinently I can not tel how chopped in to cause the leaues and his booke and his lies to make the more muster and shewe This was an happie happe for you M. Sta. to ruffle in your Rhetorike that it happed the B. to haue so ill an hap by alleaging this sentence for hereby ye haue shewed first your truth honestie That where the Bishop citeth two plaine sentences out of the new Testament together to coÌ„firme his assertioÌ„ you say he alleageth here but one Where the Bishop citeth this of Cesar the later of the twaine you quite omitting the other say this is his first authoritie of the new Testament Good happe haue you M. St. to haue chopped in two lies so round togither to make the more muster of lies in your booke but happie man happy dole they say With the like happinesse haue ye founde out this grammar rule that Reddite is ye may giue But chiefly this happie new Diuinitie to refuse your Princes lawfull authoritie that necessarily by force of any wordes ye be not bounde to pay so much as any tribute to your Prince All these happes was it your hap first to finde out And therefore all your side haue good cause M. St. to count ye an happie man. But M. St. not content withall these happes stormeth yet against the Bishop for adioyning these wordes Admonishing not withstanding all Princes people that Cesars authoritie is not infinite or without limites for such authoritie belongeth only to the King of all Kinges but bounded and circumscribed within the boundes assigned in Gods worde This M. St. calleth a foolish and a friuolous admonition without any cause or ground grounded on M. Hornes fantasticall imagination and not vpon Christ as he surmiseth Is this M. Stapl. a foolish and a friuolous admonition a groundlesse fantasticall Imagination to say that the Princes authoritie is not infinite but circuÌ„scribed within the boundes assigned in Gods worde what would ye haue had the Bishop to say that it had bene infinite without any boundes such as onely belongeth to God but how would ye then haue triumphed at the matter and in déede ye had had good cause Where now ye haue none but that ye be disposed to quarel at euery thing be it neuer so well spoken Neyther was it without cause or grounde syth the wordes that immediately are ioyned so togither make an expresse limitation that the former part of the sentence is bounded with the later parte that the Prince ought to haue such due belonging to him as hindreth not the yéelding of that due that belongeth to god And therfore the Bishops admonition was not onely godly and true but grounded on Christes wordes yea and comprehendeth them also and was no lesse necessarie for the Bishop to haue vsed both for that it maketh a distinction of that supremacie that your Pope chalengeth intruding and incroching on those things that are only due to God and not suffring his authoritie to be limitted by Gods worde and woulde rule Gods worde and go beyonde the boundes thereof And also for that to the ignorant simple of your side ye slauÌ„der the B. and other setters forth of gods word yea the Quéenes maiestie her self to take on hir and we to yelde to hir such an absolute and indefinite authoritie as taketh from god from his word from his ministers that authoritie that belongeth vnto them Which syth it is your vsuall lying and malicious slaunder to sturre offence to the simple to bring the Prince and Preachers in obloquie and the authoritie in suspition and hatred it was not a friuolous fantasticall imagination as your fantasticall braine imagineth but a most necessarie cause for the B. to haue giuen that admonition to shew what authority we allow in the prince the Prince taketh on hir agréeable to that that Christ coÌ„mauÌ„ds to render Nay say you it is not grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ christ VVho willeth that to be giuen to Caesar that is Caesars and to God that is Gods but determineth expresseth nothing that is to be giuen to Caesar but onely payment of money And yet if we consider as I haue sayde what was the question demaunded it doth not determine that neither thoughe the thing it selfe be most true Doth this M. St. determine nothing but money yea not so much as that neither whie what doth it determine then nothing say you if we consider as I haue sayde what was the question demaunded In déede M. Stap. if we considered as you haue sayde it would be a very meane determination of any thing And yet if you would better haue considered euen that you haue sayde ye shoulde haue found this your saying to haue bene sayde without your considering cappe For then ye tolde vs that thoughe it forced not that we ought to pay tribute yet it forced that we might pay it which inforceth yet somewhat more than bare nothing And euen héere present ye say that Christ determineth expresseth nothing that is to be giuen to Cesar but onely paymeÌ„t of money And by by ye say it doth not determine that neither And so ye tell vs it dothe determine nothing and yet it determines something and that something it doth determine and yet it dothe not determine it If we consider it as you haue sayde it howe would ye haue vs consider it master Stap. when your selfe so inconsiderately haue saide suche contradictions Besides this as repugnant as the rest before ye sayd his wordes imported onely that they might which is not to will a thing to be done but to permit or licence that a thing may be done or may not be done And héere ye playnly say he willeth that to be giuen to Cesar that is Cesars and to God that is Gods. But Christes willing a thing to be done is his commaundement that it be done and not a licence that may or may not
them master Stapleton till ye set them downe I thinke they will all come in the ende to the effect of this sentence here so often by all yourside alleaged Ye cite Chrysostome as though it were at the full Where in déede ye cut off both the heade the middle and taile of his sentence whereby considering the occasion and purpose of his wordes we might sée that they shoulde not be wrested from his meaning Chrysostome vpon these wordes of the Prophet Esay Factum est anno quo mortuâ—…s est Ozias rex It came to passe in the yere that king Ozias died after a Preface made of Priestes mariage taking occasion of the Prophet Esays wife telleth of Ozias presumption Uerum hic Ozias c. but this Ozias when he was a crowned King bicause he was iust waxed hawtie in minde and conceyuing a greater courage than was for his estate entred into the temple And what sayth Esay He entred into the holy of holies and sayde I will offer incense He being a King vsurpeth the principalitie of the priesthood I will sayth he offer incense bicause I am iust But abide within thy bounds And so Chrysostome procéedeth in the sentence cited by you Alij sunt termini The boundes of a kingdome of a priesthood are not al one c. Which sentence ye truly cite til ye come to these wordes VVhen I say to me I vnderstand a priest And there ye strike of mâ—… words of Chrysostam than ye cited Which belike ye do for two purposes Partly for that ye could not abide to heare of any vices or discommendation in priests therfore ye cull out only that which soundeth to their praise dignitie Partly for that this would haue made the purpose of Chrysost playner reprouing them that disâ—…erne not betwene the office the persoÌ„ At which fault your self so late did stuÌ„ble in princes not discerning between Neroes vices a princes office As in Chrysostoms time same despised the office of a priest bicause of the faults of diuerse priests The wordes of Chrysostome folowing those you cite are these Therefore when thou seest an vnworthie priest slaunder not the priesthod For thou oughtest not to coÌ„demne the things but him that euill vseth a good thing Syth Iudas also was a traytor howbeit for this the order Apostolical is not accused but the mind of him Neither is it the fault of the priesthood but of the euill mind And thou therfore blame not the priesthod but the priest that vseth euill a good thing For if one dispute with thee and say seest thou yonder Christianâ—… answere thou but I speak not to thee of the persons but of the things or else how many phisitions haue bene made slaughtermen haue giuen poisons for remedies And yet I dispise not the arte but him that euill vseth the arte How many shipmeÌ„ haue guided euill their ships yet is not the arte of sayling euill but the mind of them If the Christian man be wicked accuse not thou the profession the priesthood but him that euill vseth a good thing These are Chrysostomes wordes which you omit and then followeth as you recite Regâ—… corpora c. The bodies are coÌ„mitted to the king and so forth as ye say til ye come to the knitting vp of the sentence with Ozias which again you omit VeruÌ„ rex c. But that king going beyond his bounds and passing the measure of the kingdom atteÌ„pted to adde somwhat more and entred into the temple willing with authoritie to offer incense VVhat therfore sayth the priest It is not lawfull for thee Ozias to offer incense Behold libertie behold a mind that knoweth not boÌ„dage behold a tong touching the heauens behold liberty that cannot be restrained behold the body of a maÌ„ the mind of an angel behold one that goeth on the grouÌ„d is coÌ„uersant in heaueÌ„ Thou sawest a king thou sawest not a diademe Tel not me it is a kingdom where is the transgression of lawes It is not lawful for thee O king to offer inceÌ„se It is not lawful for thee to come into the holy of holies Thou passest thy bouÌ„ds thou sekest things not grauÌ„ted to thee therfore shalt leese the things thou hast receiued It is not lawful for thee to offer inceÌ„se but this is giuen vnto the priests This is not thine but this is mine haue I vsurped on me thy purple vsurpe not thou my priesthod It is not lawful for thee to offer inceÌ„sâ—… but only for the sons of AaroÌ„ By this it plainly appeareth wherevpon Chrysost. speaketh to wete of the seuerall functions of the spirituall pastor and the prince and that it is not lawfull for the prince to intrude himself into the office of the diuine minister He may not more take vpoÌ„ him to administer the diuine sacraments of christ his church now although he be the prince to the which not with standing you admitted womeÌ„ thaÌ„ might Ozias sacrifice then For as then God had appoynted who should sacrifice so hath he apointed who should now minister his sacrameÌ„ts Now if ye had shewed that the supreme gouernment ouer ecclesiasticall causes the ouersight and direction of the setting forth of Gods true religion the abolishing of false religion and the deposing of Idolatrous Priestes that obsâ—…inately mainteyne errours agaynst the expresse worde of God be the like doing to this fact of Ozias if ye had proued that the Prince hath euer done or doth or claymeth to do the like fact to this of Ozias in ministring the sacrament then had you alleaged this sentence to some purpose else maketh it nothing to the purpose but maketh agaynst your popish mid wiues they rather play the part of Ozias It maketh not agaynst the Q. Maiestie but most of all against your Pope himselfe that thinketh he playth the high priests part and is so farre therfrom that none is more like than he to this vsurper entring into the holyest place and vsurping the priesthood the sacrifice the power and the honour that belongeth onely to Iesus Christe himselfe As for the office of the true minister of God which neyther your Pope nor you his shaâ—…elings arâ—… is in déede as Chrysostom sayth both a distinct function from the princes and hath other boundes and also we graunt surmounteth farre the boundes of the Princes office in respect of his spirituall ministerie of administring the sacraments of preaching the glad tydings of saluation of denouncing to the obstinate sinners the threates of Gods wrath and vengeance to the penitent the most comfortable promises of Gods mercie fauour whose sentence being rightly applyed in earth God hath promised to ratifie the same in heauen And for this cause doth Chrysost â–ª so highly extoll this priesthood referring all his prayses to the dignitie of his ministerie in respect whereof the Princes ministeris is but outwarde and earthly medling nothing with the administration of this high function but onely with the
worlds end and neuer to be altered added vnto or taken from all suche nouelties besides or contrarie to the olde and former fayth hathe the Q. highnes god be thaÌ„ked therfore remoued as CoÌ„staÌ„tine did and all Princes ought to do and hath called vs agayne to the religion of the most holy lawe as a most diligent defender of the olde and former fayth from the Popishe corruptions in faith that haue sprong vp since And as ConstaÌ„tine deposed such Bishops as obstinately mainteined those later errours and not the olde and former fayth except on their repentance submission they were by him restored so hath our most gracious souer aigne deposed such Popish Bishops and Pastors as obstinately defended and mainteined their later errours Wherin she hath shewed hir selfe a moste diligent defender and recouerer of the oldest and formost fayth of the Christians Thus as hir doings swarue not héerein from Constantines â–ª as you pretende so hath she no lesse right and authoritie in hir dominion than Constantine had in his and all Princes ought to haue in theirs béeing all as S. Paule sayth Gods ministers in this behalfe To the which senteÌ„ce of S. Paule with Chrysostomes and Eusebius iudgement theron full coldely ye say If S. Paule call the ciuill Magistrate a minister bicause through feare he constrayneth the wicked to embrace the godly doctrine as by your saying S. Chrysostome construeth it we are well content therwith Now well ye be content therwith as your obstinate refusal of this the Princes ministerie the stormes counterblastes ye rayse agaynÌ„st it do declare so also that ye be not halfe pleased with Chrysostomes construction theron how well soeuer ye would seeme to be contented appeareth in this your pinching wringing of Chrysostomes sentence by the Bishop cited For neither the Bishop cited him as you say he doth neither you cite Chrysostome fully nor rightly whiche argueth ye are not very well contented therwith Chrysostome sheweth not that the prince is called the minister of God onely bicause through feare he constrayneth the wicked to embrace the godly doctrine but also he speaketh of honoring coÌ„mending or aduancing whereby he prepareth mens mindes to be the more apte to receyue the worde of doctrine Which phrase of Chrysostome the worde of doctrine ye could not also abide least ye should haue ouerturned thereby all those points of doctrine that are not contained in the worde of God whiche neuerthelesse ye terme godly doctrine though God in his worde hath not allowed the same but are the traditions and commaundements of men And thus making what doctrine it liketh you godly or vngodly and reseruing to your selues the authoritie thereof ye say ye are well content that the ciuill magistrate be a minister bicause through feare he coÌ„strayneth that is to say ye make him serue your turne to hang to draw to burne to racke to banish to emprison and to force men to embrace what doctrine you appoint and tell him is godly doctrine This ye be well content withall This ye call his best ministerie And that this is his setting forth of Christes true religion that this is his preaching the same with his imperiall decrees and proclamations But if once he take vppon him carefully to examine by the worde of God whether those doctrines and that religion that ye pretende to be godly and the old and former faith be so or no and finding them cleane contrary he remoue them by force coÌ„straine his subiects to embrace the doctrine of Gods worde and so prepare them to receyue the truth by punishing the wicked and obstinate seducers by placing in their roumes and honoring the godly setters forth of the worde of doctrine then in no case ye are well content therewith but raile at and sclaunder the doings of such a Prince and deuise al the trecheries that ye can to his destruction Neuerthelesse would ye well consider what here once againe M. St. you haue grauÌ„ted That the best ministerie and seruice of the great Constantine rested in the setting foorth of Gods true religion Then if the setting forth thereof be the Princes best ministery and seruice may he not Iudge of his best ministery and seruice yea how shall he set forth that whereof he shall not iudge Of other partes of his ministerie he may iudge and may he not Iudge of his beste ministerie are the setting forth of ciuill lawes properly a part of his office bicause they be a good parte of his ministerie is the setting forth of true religion being the best parte as ye are content to call it no parte at al thereof or not rather if it be his best ministerie it is the best part of his office also And seing the setting forth of true religioÌ„ is not properly a ciuill matter but distinct therefrom then doth the beste parte of the Princes office consist in the ministerie of an ecclesiasticall matter and that of such an one as containes the ouersight of all other matters ecclesiasticall For as in true religion they are or ought to be all coÌ„teyned so in the setting forth of theÌ„ is coÌ„tained their ouersight direction For how can he well set forth any thing that he ouerâ—…eeth not nor directeth which ouersight and direction being the supreme gouernment that the Quéenes Maiestie only claymeth and we ascribe vnto hir how haue ye not graunted withall M. St. that this supremacie ouer all causes Ecclesiasticall aboue all other things belongeth to hir Maiestie But for all this that he him selfe hath graunted or the Bishop hath inferred saith M. Stapleton Neither this that ye here alleage out of place nor al the residue which ye reherse of this CoÌ„stantine with whose doings ye furnish hereafter sixe full leaues can importe this superioritie as we shall there more at large specifie This is alleaged out of place ye say M. St. for Constantine But who seeth not that this is but a pelting quarrel the Bishop on good consideration order declareth both by Chrysostoms exposition Constantines example how this sentence of S. Paule that the Prince is Gods minister stretcheth not only to his ministerie in ciuil but also in causes Ecclesiastical But this is alleaged out of place â–ª say you It is no meruaile M. Stap. if it séeme out of place with you for all is alleaged out of place that hauing any place displaceth your assertion And thus pretending it is alleaged out of place ye passe it ouer post vs offâ—…il an other time when ye wil declare it more at large ad Calendas Graecas when ye shall haue more leasure But sir had ye any leasure at this time ye might better haue satisfied your Reader to haue fully answered here to that is here obiected and not thus to dallie off the matter till another time But there is no remedie the reader must haue pacieÌ„ce and waite your furder leasure Neuerthelesse when ye shall M. St. vouchsafe to méete
Apologie All whiche though it be a plaine digression from the Bishoppes aunswere and the issue in question beeing aboute Images and Idolatrie yet such is his importunitie we muste followe master Stapleton not whether the cause requireth but whether hys ydle brayne pleaseth to runne at randon Otherwise the principall parte of this Counterblast beeing reiected to hys common place of other impertineÌ„t bibblebables he would crie oute that hée were not aunswered in suche a weightie matter And yet when all is done as it is nothing to the present purpose so is it to no effect in any other matter at all For all his quarrell consisteth in these two poyntes The one that the Homelie wrongfully named Theodorus Lascaris for Michaell Paleologus The other for a decree of Ualence and 〈◊〉 agaynst Images For the former what Authours the Authour of that Homilie followed I knowe not howe be it he nameth not Theodorus Lascaris as you say master Stapleton but onely Theodorus neyther this missing of the Emperours name to him that woulde haue regarded the matter conteyned in the Homelie mighte bee thought worthie so great an outcrye excepte it were to you master Stapleton that still vse to stumble at a sirawe and leape ouer a blocke lyke to the Phareseys that Excolantes culicem Camelum glutiebant VVere stiffled with a gâ—…atte and yet swallowed a Camell Neyther was this so great an ouersight sythe Theodorus and Michaell were both of one tyme The one expelled the other and both still reteyned the name of Emperour For as Uolaterane sayeth Michaeligitur Paleologus c. Michaell Paleologus therefore at the same tyme inuaded the Empyre whiche two moste noble houses of Constantinople that is to saye the house of the Lascarie and the house of the Paleologie the one decayed the other lyfte vppe hir heade Theodorus Lascaris being thus expelled from the Citie of Constantinople yet raigned he still at Adrianople as the Emperour of Gréece And it is not vnlikely the occasion of his exile to haue bene about Images so well as other matters Syth the Gréeke and Latine Church haue stryued aboute the controuersie of Images nothing more and none so hotte For which matter chiefely the Pope rebelled from his alleageance and raysed all the diuision of the Empire in the Church of Christ that hath bene the chiefe decay and ruine thereof which onely sprang of the question of Images And yet sayth master Stapleton giuing vs no other warrantiss thereof than this his bare worde for Images VVhich had customably continued in the Greeke Church many hundreth yeares before and so reuerently afterwardes continued euen till Constantinople was taken by the great Turke and yet this good Antiquarie and Chronographer will needes haue the Grâ—…cians aboue seuen hundreth yeares togyther to haue beene Iconomachees that is Image breakers Are ye not ashamed master Stapleton to speake suche vntruthes euen where your selfe chalenge other of lyes For the authour of the Homelies noteth not here nor herevpon the dealing against Images all that space nor nameth any Iconomachees nor medleth any thing there with those 700. yeares that customably continued till Constantinople was taken by the Turke But onely of those yeares that customably continued from the primitiue Church till the time of the Empresse Irene The wordes of the Homelie are these These things were done in the Church about the yeare of our Lorde 760. Note here I pray you in this processe of the storie that in the Churches of Asia and Grece there were no Images publikely by the space of 700. yeares and there is no doubt but the primitiue Churche next the Apostles tymes was most pure Now where the words and meaning of the Homilie are most plaine and so true withal that ye could not gainsay it nor your Maister D. Harding coulde improue any point of B. Iewels chalenge about the same article ye wittingly wrest the wordes of the Homilie to the. 700. yeares preceding the taking of Constantinople by the great Turke chalenging the Homilie to alleage the Gretians to haue bene Iconomaches all that while thinking to fasten as ye call it a notorious lie on the Homilie But the Homilies truth is manifest and the lye lighteth on your selfe besides your rashnes to affirme without the booke on your owne fingers that for many hundreth yeres before Images customably continued in the Greke Church and so reuerently afterwardes continued euen till Constantinople was taken by the great Turke For the which though it would go harde with you to put you to your profe and to let it hang in suspence of a lye till ye haus confirmed it yet letting it passe I onely demaunde that if your Images haue such great force as your Legendes pretende howe chaunce they kept the Citie and their worshippers no better from the Turkes can they do no morethan the dumbe Idols that the Prophet speaketh of Habent gladium securim in manu se autem de bello latroâ—…ibus non liberant they haue a sword and an axe in their hand but they deliuer not themselues from warre and from theues Or rather if it be as ye say were the Grecians not deliuered ouer to those enimies as for their other vices so chiefly for that their Idolatrie as the children of Israell for the like were ledde captiue into Babylon The other thing that Maister Stapleton noteth in the Homelie is this Many other shamefull lies are there saith he to disgrace deface and destroy the Images of Christ his Saintes especially one wheras he sayth that the Emperor Valence and Theodosius made a proclamation that no man shoulde paint or carue the crosse of christ And thervpon gaily and iolily triuÌ„pheth vpon the catholiks VVheras the Proclamation neither is nor was to restrayne all vse of the crosse but that it should not be painted or carued vpon the grouÌ„d VVhich these good Emperours not Valens for he was the valiant captaine and defendâ—…r of the Arians but Valentinianus and Theodosius did of great godly reucreÌ„ce that they had to the crosse enact And yet as grosse as soul as loud a lying fetch as this is M. Iewell walketh euen in the verye same steppes putting Valens for Valentinian and alleaging this edict as general against al Images of the crosse You take vpon you lustily M. Stapl. to chalenge in your brode language both the Homilie the B. of Sarum â–ª But it is your maner there is no shift ye must be borne withall chiefly in this your extrauagant by quarrel Otherwise if ye had coÌ„sidered more indifferently the homilies the B. allegatioÌ„ no doubt you would haue tempered your pen with more sobrietie ye chalenge either of them for two lies in this allegation the one for putting the name of Valens for Valentinian the other for citing that simply that was conditionall which though it were as ye pretend yet neither of these the B. or the Homilies author are to be
to content you Io. Langus in his Preface Dedicatorie to Ferdinandus hath these wordes Uirtutes vero Maiestatis â—…uae c. I purpose not here to rehearse otherwyse of your Maiestyes vertues both for that I haue to small habilitie for so great a woorke and better it were not to speake at all of a matter of weight than not to bee able to prosecute it as the worthinesse of it requireth And also for that Nicephorus in hys Preface when hee consecrateth the trauayle of thys Hystorie to Emanuell Paleologus the Emperoure of Constantinople for so beeing mooued by coniectures I take him to bee he liuely expresseth as it were in a Glasse the moste of those selfe same vertues Besides this where Nicephorus in the beginning of his Preface Dedicatorie doth call the Emperour to whome he dedicateth his woorke Pricipem omnium Christianissimum atque humanissimum A moste Christian and moste curteous Prince Herevppon Iohn Langus maketh his first marginall note Uidetur is esse Emanuel Paleologus This Prince seemeth to bee Emanuell Paleologus And after that in the same Preface he addeth another note thereof Emanuels nato praedones Turcae Constantinopoli eiecti sunt VVhen Emanuell was borne the Turkishe spoylers were driuen out of Constantinople And againe Imperatoris Emanuelis infantiâ—… The infancie of Emanuell the Emperour Lykewise another Successor eius in Imperio Constantinopolitanâ—… Emanuel filius His successour in the Empire of Constantinople was Emanuell his sonne Another Diuini numinis erga Emanuelem gratia fauor The grace and fauour of the diuine Godheade towardes Emanuell Another Tribâ—…untur Emanueli praecipue Imperatoriae virtutes The chiefe vertues of an Emperour are ascribed to Emanuell Another PalatiuÌ„ Impâ—…riale ib idem ab Emanuele constructum The Emperours Palayce was buylt by Emanuell Another Eam videlicet Constantinopolim per Emanuelem Christiani retinuerunt The Christians helde it that is to say Constantinople by Emanuell And yet another Dedicatur Ecclesiastica hystoria Imperatori Emanueli veluti corona capiti cius imponitur The Ecclesiasticall hystorie is dedicated to the Emperour Emanuell and is set on his head as it were a crowne Nowe master Stapleton might not all these notes vpon the Preface made by Langus a learned Papist moue the Bishoppe to name the Emperour Emanuell Paleologus and cleare the Bishoppe of vnfaythfull dealing and raysing of mystes And if he were deceyued he was deceyued for that he gaue to muche credite to suche famous Papistes as Lazius and Langus the Doctours of the faculties of Sorbone and of Louayne that take vppon them Censoriam potestatem To haue the authoritie of Censors in allowing and approouing the moste of all youre Bookes If therefore ye blame the Bishoppe for this except ye will shewe your selfe ouer partiall ye must needes condemne all these for the same Nowe master Stapleton hauing as he thinketh about this name gotten a great triumphe pretending to driue awaye the myste and cleare the coastes doing nothing him selfe but trampling in the duste and raysing vaine smokes aboute bare names letting the matter alone vnaunswered the more to dimme the Readers eyes telleth vs howe this Andronicus the elder sonne to Michaell after hys fathers death summoned a Councell of the Gretians wherein hee and they anulled and reuoked that hys Father had done at the Councell at Lions namelye concerning the proceeding of the holy Ghoste and for the whiche Nicephorus Maister Hornes Authour beeing also carryed awaye wyth the common errour as with an huge raging tempest dothe so highly aduaunce this Andronicus And so withall ye see vppon howe good a man and vpon howe good a cause master Horne hath buylded his newe supremacie to plucke downe the Popes olde supremacie For the infringing whereof the wicked working of wretched Heretikes is with him here and else where as we shall in place conuenient shew a goodly and a godly President as it is also with maister lewell for to mainteyne the verye same quarrell as I haue at large in my returne agaynst hys fourth article declared What yée haue there declared at large or at briefe Master Stapleton is not our matter nor I haue it to sée and I recke not to looke for I déeme it by this If I iudge amisse GOD forgiue me Onely herein all the worlde maye sée what a iollie bragger ye bée Ye are euer telling vs of youre Forâ—…resle youre Translations your Replies your turnes and returnes besydes thys your Counterblast nothing muste bée forgotten of all your clerkly Pamphletes If yée wante good neighbours ye will not spare to commende them to vs your selfe As for mée I will for this once returne your returne emptie to your selfe and aunswere onelye your presente quarrels The effecte whereof is to deface the Bishops allegation as grounded vppon the doyngs of an Heretike and auouched oute of the sayings of an erronious authour And to this purpose first ye threape vpon the Reader the Prince to haue beene Andromens the elder and not Emanuell And yet for all ye woulde make it so cleare a case ye sée the Doctours doubt as they say and all your owne Doctours and that the chiefe in iudgement Secondly ye woulde make the facte and doings that are commended by Nicephorus in this Emperour to be about the anulling and reuoking of that Michaell had done at the Councell of Lions namely concerning the procéeding of the holy ghost wheras all your Doctors abouesaid name it chiefly to be for expelling of the Turkes and preseruing of the Christians in Constantinople besides his other vertues For the which cause not onely Nicephorus so highlye commendeth him but also Lazius Langus and all your foresayde Sorbonistes and Louanians And yet you to make the Emparor and the matter odious say that it was the denying of the proceeding of the holy ghost for the which Niceph. doth so highly aduaunce this Andronicus Wherein as ye slaunder them both so thirdly doe ye great wrong to Nicephorus to slaunder him with so great an hereste and saye that he was caried away with the common error as with an huge raging tempest But I doubt it will rather séene M. Stapleton your selfe were caried awaye with so huge a raging tempest eyther of the heate of some cholericke passion or some melancholicke enuie so cankered against the Bishop and the truth of his cause that it maketh you freat and rage euen against Nicephorus also For and ye were not caried away in the huge raging tempest of such a sustian fume a man might then be the bolder to pull you by the sléeâ—…e and gently demaunde if ye finde any thing in this Nicephorus wherefore ye shoulde so sore chalenge him of this heresie or wherefore he shoulde so highly commende this Emperour for this heresie I thinke ye woulde be better aduised and mollifie this sharpe chalenge of heresie in Nicephorus Many superstitions and fabulous tales there be found of manye thinges in Nicephorus I graunt but for my owne part I finde not
horrible wauering But go to let it do so presuppose that the bishop alleaged no more but this one sentence or that all the other little or nothing further the cause Yet dothe this onely sentence fully comprehende as muche as this marginall note conteâ—…neth Yea set also aside the word supreme that master St. quarell is at that in so horrible wauering and errour in matters beginning to faynte and to perishe as it were with shipwracke the Prince is the mightie and very holy anker or stay Sacris simul prophanis both in holy and prophane matters Doth not this mightie stay onely or chiefly vnder God of the Prince for al kinde of persons agaynst errors playnely argue a soueraigne helping power or supremacie in repayring of religion beeing decayed But M. Stapl. letting goe all this girdeth onely at this worde supreme bicause the byshop translated suprema anchora not the laste anchor but supreme anchor Héere first he falleth out with a Cooper I can not tell whome for missinforming the byshop As though the interpretatioÌ„ of supremus were so high a poynte that the byshop muste be taught of some â–ª Grammarian or scholemaster the English therof And bicause it is not englished in good Englishe full scholemaster like he taketh vpon him to expounde the same For what other is sayth he suprema anchora in good English than the laste anchor the laste refuge the extreme holde and stay to rest vpon Be it euen as you would haue it M. Stap. And thankes be to God that when you haue nothing to say agaynst the bishops allegation this is your last anchor your last refuge and extreme stay to rest vpon to finde faulte with the byshops englishe for not good english Though héere neither you can proue any false englishing which is common with you and when you haue all done supremus is bothe laste and chiefe and which way soeuer ye conster it supremus is supreme take it howe you list Although in the very proper derâ—…uation of the worde supremus comming of supra signifieth the chiefe or hyest And that it is called laste is but accessorie and improperly spoken for properly vltimus is last or extreâ—… by reason that the last things as added for the most part vppermost and the last doings are commonly the chiefest But what neede contention here de laua caprina of a matter of nothing It were more fitte ye had reserued this your earnest answere to some earnest matter But as they say In refrigidissima feruâ—… in fâ—…entissima friges In the coldest matters you be boyling hoâ—…te and in the hottest matters you be key colde To auoyde therfore contention as ye ought not to controll the Bishops English being not false so am I for my parte content to admit your English and I thinke so will the Bishop toâ—… For setting aside your quareling it coâ—…th not hiâ—… but all in the ende commeth to one effect You say it signifieth the last anchor the last refuge the extreme holde and stay to rest vpon Uery well sayde M. St. 〈◊〉 is not that the chiefe which we must flée vnto holde stay and rest vpon when all other helpes do faylâ—… And so ye graunt the Prince vnder God to be the chiefest refuge and stay both to the lay and Clergie in all wâ—…rings of doctrine and errâ—… of Religion â–ª Is not this now asmuch as the Bishops note contained the Princes supremacie in restoring Religion decayed You exemplifiâ—… the matter thus As suprema verba do signifie the last wordes of a man in his last will as 〈◊〉 dies the last day supremum iudicium â–ª the last iudgement â–ª with a number of the like phrases â–ª True in déede M. St. but ye should withall remember â—…uen in these examples that the last will is the chiefest will and al the other former willes giue place to the last will. And the last day is the chiefest day and by a speciall prerogatiue called Dies Doâ—…ni the day of the Lorde and Dies magnus â–ª the great day And the last iudgement is the chiefest iudgement when all iudges shall be iudged and therefore God the father hath onely giuen it to Christ bicaâ—…se he is simply the chiefest of all And here in earth also he is the chiefest iudge that is last appealed vnto Thus M. St. your owne phrases fitte the Bishop well And as it doth in these so in this present phrase Suprema anchora say you Is the last anchor signifying the last hold stay as in the perill of teÌ„pest the last refuge is to cast anchor And is not this then also the chiefest refuge and stay In such a sense say you Nicephorus calleth his Emperour the last the mightie the holy anchor or stay so in horrible wauering and errour signifying that now by him they were stayed from the storine of schisme as from a storme in the sea by casting the anchor the shippe is stayed This is in déeâ—… M. St. the meaning of Nicephorus And do ye not sée what chiefe dealing it giueth aboue all other only to the Prince in the storme of a schisme or errour or other ecclesiasticall matter wauering is not the anchor in a storme the chiefest and most principall stay doth any thing stay the ship more or better than an anchor or is there any other ordinarie stay therof Then by your own expositioÌ„ the Prince is made here the chiefe the principal the only stay in such cases which fully coÌ„cludeth all the matter notwithstaÌ„ding al your scoffes therfore where ye coÌ„clude saying But by the metaphore of an anchor to conclude a supremacie is as wise as by the metaphore of a Cow to conclude a Saddle For aswell doth a saddle fit a Cow as the qualitie of an anchor resemble supremacie But by such beggerly shiftes a barren cause must be vpholded Ye haue sadled the Cow M. St. haÌ„dsomly ye are the fittest maÌ„ that I sée to ride vpoÌ„ hir for this coÌ„clusion sheweth you as wise a maÌ„ according to the old saying as euer spurred a Cow for admitting the metaphore of an anchor no further than your selfe haue sayed that as by it the ship is stayed froÌ„ stormes in the seas so by the Prince all the people are stayed froÌ„ Schisme wauering errours in religion if the anchor be the chiefest stay next to Gods help in the one is not the Prince the chiefest stay next to Gods helpe in the other although therfore ye â—…elie the B. to say he concluded only therevpon for before ye sayde he concluded on the worde Suprema which he did not neither but on all the whole allegacions altogither yet holdeth this conclusion euen by your owne sayings better I â—…row than you will holde on your sadled Cowes backe as fit a rider as ye be except ye sit the faster that the Cow cast not a calfe as bigge as M. St. As for the B. shifts what they are what beggerly shifts they are
holy ghost that ye terme with an vnclean an impure mouth pure religion were in their chiefe citie of Constantinople in the time of Constantinus sonne to Iohn nephew to Andronicus your Emanuels father euen about VVhitfontide at which time the Catholike Church in true and syncere fayth concerning the holye ghost keepeth a solemne festiuall day of the holy ghost sodenlye by the wicked Turkes besieged and shortly after the Citie and the whole Greeke Empire came into the Turkes handes and possession VVherein God seemeth as before to the Iewes so afterwardes to the Grecians as it were with pointing and notifying it with his finger to shew and to notifie vnto all the worlde the cause of the finall destruction aswell of the one as of the other people What is all this to the purpose M. Stapleton what maketh this against the Bishoppes matter or to further yours except to lengthen your tale although it séemeth that your tale is false neyther you agrée with your selfe therein it is false bicause at that time the great Turke besieged and wonne the Empire of Gréece the Grecians had forsaken this heresie yea and that more is acknowledged the Popes supremacie wherein the question lyeth whether in so doing they fell into another or no for after their agréement at Lions councell by Michaell Paleologus and their reuolt agayne vnder Andronicus the elder Iohn the sonne of Emanuell nephewe to Andronicus the yonger whom before ye mentioned came to the councell at Florence that was called in spits of Basill councell and agréed with Pope Eugenius whome Basill Councell had deposed and so continued in agréement with the Pope till in Constantinus reigne brother to this Iohn the Turke besieged and ouercame them And so your tale is false that say they rested in this opinion till their captiuitie Whereas a good while before they had quite forsaken it after they fully vnderstoode the Latines opinion theron which before they did not Secondly ye agrée not with your owne tale for both in your Preface and hereafter in many places ye ascribe the captiuitie of them chiefly to their not acknowledging of the Pope and so doth Uolaterane which is as false as the other For at that time they were fully agréed with him And here as one that had forgotten his former tale you ascribe the chiefe cause of their captiuitie to the heresie against the holy ghost and so make your proportion betwéene the Iewes bondage at Easter and theirs at Whitsontide at what time is celebrated the solemne feast of the holy ghost And thereon ye take vppon you as though ye were of Gods secrete counsayle to tell vs howe God poynted out the matter wyth hys finger But where to is all this so farre fetched about how is it brought into the purpose For M. St. will haue nothing here that is nedelesse and farre from the matter forsooth this must be presupposed that the Grecians are the B â–ª dearlings â–ª and that the Bishop is of the same opinion bicause he alleged Nicephorus as is before said And her vpon he maketh his marginall note a good aduert sement for M. Horne to consider the cause of the destruction of Constantinople Where by this rule he may saye it is a good note for Langus for Lazius for the Sorbonistes of Paris for his owne Doctors and good maisters at Louaine where he professeth himselfe a student in Diuinitie to beware the same for they haue commended Nicephorus to all the worlde and they allowe his doctrine for pure religion in all pointes not excepting this and therforeal the Papists be belike the Grecians dearlings and denie the proceeding of the holye ghost from the father and the sonne so is it a fitter admonition for the Popish catholikes than for the B. or any other Protestant whose faith in this point and all other concerning the holy ghost the Papistes can not blemish And yet by your leaue M. St. the Papistes be not very sounde in all pointes concerning the holy ghost as I shall shewe you further when you require the same and therefore they had more néede of the twayne to beware of this ensample But since M. Stapl. will so faine haue this cause considered of the Grecians captiuitie I graunt him this their errour might worthily be noted a sufficient cause or any oter errour or naughtinesse of life might well deserue the heauy hande of God and the scourge of such a tyrant as the Turke But whatsoeuer they or we to whome God be mercifull at Gods handes doe deserue not entering into Gods iudgement but speaking of men the most likely and chiefest cause of this Empires decay is euen the verye Pope him selfe his ambitious treacherie first spoyled and diuided the Empire into twaine and made all the West part forsake their sworne obedience And hath also so spoyled this part of the Empyre in the west that besides the bare title of the Empire of Rome the Emperour God wote hath little or nothing the Pope in effect hath all And where the Emperor of Rome had wont to be Lorde to the Bishop of Rome and to other Bishops besides The Bishop of Rome is nowe Lorde to the Emperour of Rome and to all other Princes besides and to attaine to his triple diademe ouer all Princes he hath neuer ceased to stirre and moue such garboyles as all Christendome hath lost onely the Pope hath woon therby and the barbarous nations haue ouerrunne all Europe Asia and Affricke No maruayle then if at the length Christian Princes powers being diuided and weakened with continuall warre and chiefly set on or maintained by the Pope especially against the Grecians the Turks at the last haue ouercome the Empire being destitute of forrein ayde and of themselues giuen to wanton effeminatenesse Although thus much I may iustly note they euer well ynough defended and maintained them selues till they acknowledged obedience to the Pope who was the first cause of their ruine Which done they neuer throue after but were in short time besieged cleanâ—… ouercome When they had once giuen their soules captiue to the tirannie of the Pope their bodies not long after became thrall to the slauerie of the Turke Which séemeth rather to be Gods iust plague vnto them wherein to vse your owne wordes as it were with pointing and notifying with his finger he sheweth to all the worlde to beware of these two aduersaries the spirituall enimie the Pope and the bodilie enimie the Turke Thus M. Stapleton your néedlesse admonition toucheth your selfe and your Pope nearer than ye were a wist Neuerthelesse not so content making as though you had as in déede ye haue ouershotte your selfe you pretende to drawe nearer home But what speake I of Greece say you wee neede not to run to so farre yeares or countries the case toucheth vs much nearer the Realme of Boheme and of late yeares of Fraunce and Scotlande the noble Countrie of Germanie with some other that I
ordering directing publike peace and iustice but also as much or rather much more most of all godlinesse true religioÌ„ Ecclesiastical matters and Ecclesiastical persons to liue blamelesse in their spirituall vocations so well as the laytie to liue in peace and iustice And that in al these points the Prince is the knitting togither iointurâ—… of the one so well as of the other Which flatly argueth that the direction and preseruing of both causes persons next vnder God doth appertaine to his gouernment being both knit alike to his authoritie What false dealing what blearing of eyes hath the Bishop here vsed hauing faithfully set downe the Emperours owne wordes which as they fully shew Theodosius his minde so they fully proue the present question conclude the Princes supreme authoritie so well in Ecclesiasticall matters as in temporall To all this master Stap. thought best to answere not one worde but to let it goe telling vs that the Emperours sayings or doings serue nothing for our pretensed primacie and that this is wandring in an ob scure generalitie This may well be called a Counterblast M. Stap. If this be sufficient answere to the bishops allegation let others iudge Ye complayne it is obscure it may perchaunce so appeare to your eyes bleared with affection or rather blinded with wilfulnesse So is the Gospell obscure to those that would not sée and the sauour of death to those that perish Cleare light is noysome to dimme sights Euery body saue you and suche as are bleared by you may easily sée a farre off the playnnesse of these proues Nowe where ye say he wandreth in an obscure generalitie wherof can not be enforced any certayne particularitie of the principall question Otherwhiles M. St. ye coÌ„playne of particularities require the B. to proue generalities or else ye crie it commeth shorte Héere the Bishop hauing proued this generalitie by your owne confession nowe you quarell at generalities I perceiue nothing will content a froward brabbler but any other that liste not to quarell will soone perceiue that this generalitie that ye complayne of bothe comprehendeth the particulars also satisfieth that that ye call so often for to proue a supreme gouernemeÌ„t ouer all ecclesiastical matters in general which fully answereth euen to the othe likewise Neuerthelesse sith you would slip away by wandring about particulars This Epistle of the Emperour sheweth his supreme direction and gouernment euen in particulars and that principall particulars also This Epistle béeing directed from the foresaide Emperours to Cyrillus a chiefe ecclesiasticall Prelate and Patriarche of Alexandria after the Emperours as is before sayde haue declared this their generall care and gouernment â–ª so well ouer ecclesiasticall matters as temporall But when say they to Cyril we vnderstoode both by our loue to God and our mynd louing hys truthe that these thinges mighte bee obteyned in those that are godly wee haue nowe often thought it very necessarie by reason of those thinges that haue happened luckyly to haue a Synode moste deare vnto God of those moste holy Bishoppes whiche bee euery where c. And so shewing the cause of their delaye and the necessitie of the Ecclesiasticall matters they commaunde Cyrill with other Bishoppes not to fayle buâ—… be readie at Ephesus at Whytsontide nexte following For saye they the Copies of the same Synode are already sente out from oure Maiesties to the bishoppes beloued in GOD throughout all the Metropolitane Cities that thys beeing doone bothe the trouble whiche hathe happened on these controuersies be dislolued according to the ecclesiasticall rules and those thinges corrected that are vnseemely committed And that godlynesse maye be towardes God and profitable establishement to publique matters Neither let any thyng be seuerally innouate in any matter of any person before the holy Synode and the common sentence of it to come And we are fully persuaded that euery one of the Priestes moste deare to God both forbicause of the ecclesiasticall and publique matters beeing throughly moued by this our sanction or Edict will spedyly make haste towardes this councell with diligent endeuour and to their habilities consulte vpon these matters being so necessarie and apperteining to the good pleasure of god As for vs we hauing muche care of these things wil suffer no man lightly to be wanting neither shall he haue any excuse before God or before vs if any out of hande do not diligently appeare at the foresayde tyme in the place determined c. Thus euen in thys Epistle in particularities also doth Theodosius shewe his supreme authoritie But you will say these are not principall particulars the principall particulars are to dispute vpon the questions to resolue the doubtes to debate the matter and to indge and determine which parte is the truthe thereof These partes say you are the principall these partes belong not to the Prince but to the Priestes That these thinges master Sta belong to those that for their function haue the knowledge and profession of them no man denieth no more than that lawyers shoulde haue the lyke debating trying and determining the truthe of any doubte in the lawe But this nothing hindreth the Princes supreme authoritie and gouernement in his lawes no more dothe it in the debating trying and determining doubtes in any ecclesiasticall matters in the discussing wherof the Prince is ignoraunt debarre his supreme authoritie and gouernment in all suche cases debated or defined These doings therfore though they be the principall in respect of the examining of suche doubtes yet in respects of the ordering directing disposing setting them out and maynteyning them the Princes dooinges are farre more principall particulars As when a doubte in the lawe aryseth to call all the Lawyers togither highe and lowe what estate soeuer they bee off to appoynte them the place and tyme of meeting where and when to directe and order their assemblie and what they haue iudged to be the lawe therein to ratifie and allowe it to sette it foorthe and maynteyne it this dooing theweth the Prince to be the supreme gouernour in all Laive matters thoughe he neyther debate nor determine the truthe thereof Sithe therefore Theodosius dyd thus muche as this that is héere shewed and as that héereafter to whiche ye referre your selfe shall further declare this is inoughe to argue hys supreme gouernement in all Ecclesiasticall matters euen by these particulars If all this proue no supremacie why graunt ye not thus muche to Princes nowe that ye sée these Emperours had then howe chaunce your Pope wyll neither suffer the Emperours nowe to summon a Councell to cite and call the Bishops togither to assigne them a place whereto they shal resort and kéepe their Councell to appoynte the time to méete and begin their Councell in Howe chaunce your Pope will not suffer Princes in their seuerall dominions to haue the like synodes but will do all either generall or Prouinciall by him selfe or by
his Legates â–ª Forsoothe when he dothe it then it is a principall matter it argueth his supremacie and therefore none can do it but he But nowe when examples are founde and alleaged that Christian Princes had wonte to doe it Ergo They were supreme then belike therein Nay then it argueth no supremacie then it is no principal matter nor any eccl. matter at al. Thus you play mockhalliday with vs and boe péepe as though we were children it is and is not When the Pope dothe it then it argueth a supremacie when the Prince dothe it then it argueth none And why so for sooth then the case is altered Thus do you dally out the matter and when any substantiall proufe is brought agaynst you either ye giue it suche a mocke as this or leape cleane ouer it as though ye sawe it not or in stéede of answere to that that is propounded propounde your selfe an other allegation which is clauâ—…m clauo pellere to driue out one nayle by another For to the allegation out of the Emperours Theodosius and Ualentinianus Epistle ye answere nothing but set a péece of another letter of Ualentinian to Theodosius in the téethe of it VVe sayth Valentinian to the Emperour Theodosius say you ought to defende the fayth which we receyued of our auncestors with all competent deuotion and in this our tyme preserue vnblemished the worthy reuerence due to the blessed Apostle sainct Peter so that the moste blessed Bishop of the Citie of Rome to whome antiquitie hath giuen the principalitie of Priesthoode aboue all other may O moste blessed father and honorable Emperour haue place and libertie to giue iudgement in suche matters as concerne fayth and Priestes And for this cause the bishop of CoÌ„stantinople hathe according to solemne order of Councels by his Libel appealed vnto him And this is writteÌ„ M. Horne to Theodosius him selfe by a coÌ„mon letter of Valentinian And the Empresses Placidia Eudoxia which Placidia writeth also a particular letter to hir said sonne Theodosius and altogither in the same sense Héere ye clap vp a marginall note The Popes supremacie Proued by the Emperour Valentinian alleaged by M. Horne And héere agayne full triumphantly ye crie out HerkeÌ„ good M. Horne giue good aduertisemeÌ„t I walk not and wander as ye do here alleaging this Emperour in an obscure generalitie wherof cannot be enforced any particularitie of the principall question I go to worke with you playnly truely and particularly I shewe you by your owne Emperour by playne words the Popes supremacie the practise withall of appeales froÌ„ Constantinople to Rome Héere is a ioly face of this matter M. St. But yet héere is not one worde to answere the bishops allegation but to coÌ„mend your owne that ye set against it and so thinke ye answere it bicause it is of the same Emperour Ualentinian whom the bishop alleaged But such answere as it is sithe ye can make no other we muste take it or none at your handes Neuerthelesse since ye so crake that ye walke not and wander not in obscure generalities but go playnly and particulerly to worke if ye ment as ye say how chaunce ye open not any of the necessary particuler circumstances of the matter whervpon the Emperour wrote whiche might haue made this matter plaine would haue shewed what and wherin they coÌ„mended the B. of Rome and what authoritie belonged to the Emperour Yea if you had but set downe a little more largely the selfe same Epistles that ye cite the matter had beene a great deale more cleare Ye say also ye go truely to worke and yet you falsly translate euen those very words that ye cyte and so cutte them off ere ye come to the periode that that which shoulde haue shewed the matter to haue béene about a particular controuersie of the fayth then risâ—…n might séeme to be generally spoken of all controuersies And therfore ye leaue out these wordes For the controuersie of the faith that is sprong vp And where the wordes of your allegation are Locum habeat ac facultatâ—…m de fide sacerdotibus iudicare that he may haue place and leaue or facultie to iudge of the fayth and of the Priests you captiously and falsly translate it that he may haue place and libertie to giue iudgement in suche matters as concerne fayth and Priestes This subtile translation in generall ye vse to make it appeare that the Bishop of Rome hath a generall authoritie to be the chiefe Iudge to decide all doubtes in matters of fayth and to be the chiefe Iudge of all Priestes where your texte inferreth no suche thing Likewise where the Emperour sayth of the Bishop of the Citie of Rome to whome antiquitie hath yeelded the principalitie of Priesthoode aboue all others ye conclude that by playne wordes is shewed the Popes supremacie and so sette vp your Marginall note The Popes supremacie proued by the Emperour Valentinian Where in your letter are no suche playne wordes of supremacie nor any proufe thereof at all Do you thinke that the Emperour acknowledged that supremacie which your Pope nowe chalengeth and vsurpeth not onely ouer all Priestes but ouer all Kinges and Emperours also No master Stapleton it is euident by the dealing of these Emperours and that euen in this matter that the Pope â—…ad no suche supremacie but the Emperour dyd those thinges then that your Pope dothe clayme nowe as further shall appeare in the proper treatise therof Your Pope nowe woulde be lothe to be suche an humble Lâ—… and fall downe to the Egles féete as the Pope dyd then to the Emperour whiche nowe ye make the Emperour doe to the Popes féete For why ye may â—…ay â—…empora mutantur nos mutamur in illis the tymes are changed and we are changed in them All the playne wordes and proues ye crake of for this supremacie are these that the Emperour sayth antiquitie gaue hym the principalitie of Priesthoode But there is a greate difference betwéene the principalitie of Priesthoode and supreme head or chiefe gouernour of Priesthoode or that all Priesthoode is deriued out of the Popes Priesthoode as diuers of your wryters affirme that Christe made Peter onely a Priest and all the other Apostles had their Priesthoode from him and so all other from the Bishop of Rome whome they call hys Successoure But as they erre in the office of Priesthoode wherof God willing we shall speake hereafter so whatsoeuer the office of their Priesthood was their saying is manyfest â—…alse For if Peter were a man as he confessed hym selfe to be S. Paule sayth he had not hys authoritie of men but immediatly of God and Peter gaue him nothing neither yet Iames nor Iohn And here if I might spurre you a question bicause master Heskins setteth oute his Parliament so solemnelie before his boke in pictures for the nonce making s. Iames the first that sayde Masse wherin he followeth the coÌ„mon opinion
of the Papistes I demaunde if Peter was made the first priest al other froÌ„ him how s. Iames could say the first masse that was said was Peter made Priest without singing or saying his first masse or any masse at al then belike Peter was no masse 〈◊〉 priest 〈◊〉 pope hath not hâ—… principalitie of priesthood froÌ„ Peter nor any priesthod at all from him for Peters was no massing Priesthoode suche as the Popes is and pretendeth to be the principall of that order But at your leysure answere this onely nowe I note that there is a great difference betwéene the principalitie of Priesthoode and the supremacie of all the Churche of Christe which is your conclusion and that that your Pope chalengeth But the Emperours words héere do nothing proue it And yet suche principalitie or excellencie of Priesthoode as it was it neither came from God nor from Peter for any thing that either is playnely alleaged or proued héere but rather the playne wordes are to the contrarie that this principalitie was yéelded and giuen to the Bishop of the Citie of Rome by men for so sayth the Emperour antiquit as contulit antiquitie gaue it Béeing partly moued with the opinion that Peter was bishop there and partly for that Rome was the auncient and moste famous Citie of the Empire as appeareth in the nexte Epistle of Placidia by you mentioned who calleth it Ciuitatem antiquam the auncient Citie and the Citie that is the Lady of all the Emperours Cities And therefore it became them to conserue the reuerence therof For which considerations that antiquitie gaue to it the principalitie and to the bishop therof Which principalitie of priesthoode or bishophâ—… was not aboue but vnder the principalitie of the Emperours estate as appeareth euen by these Epistles cited by you For first in the Epistle whereout ye take your allegation Ualentinianus telleth howe when he came to Rome I was sayth he bothe of the Romane Bishop and also of other that were with him gathered togither out of diuers prouinces entreated to write to your mildnesse saith Ualentinian to Theodosius of the fayth which beeing the preseruer of all faythfull soules is sayd to be troubled which fayth beeing deliuered vs froÌ„ our Elders we ought to defend with al coÌ„peteÌ„t deuotioÌ„ in our times to coÌ„serue vnblemished the dignitie of the reuerence proper to the blessed Apostle Peter so that the most blessed B. of the citie of Rome to whom antiquitie hath giuen a principalitie of Priesthood aboue all others may O most blessed Lorde Father and honorable Emperour haue place and facultie to iudge of the faith of the Priests and for this cause according to the solemnitie of Councels the Bishop of Constantinople hath appealed to him by his Libels for the contention that is sprong vp of the faith to him therefore requesting and adiuring me by our common sauing health I denied not to grauÌ„t thus much as to moue my petition to your mildenesse that the foresaid Priest meaning the Bishop of Rome all the other Priestes being also gathered togither through all the worlde within Italy all other former iudgement set aside may with diligent triall searching all the matter that is in controuersie from the beginning giue such sentence thereon as the faith and the reason of the true diuinitie shall require For in our times the frowardnesse of multitudes ought not to preuayle against religion since hitherto the faith hath bene conserued stedfast And to the more perfect instruction of your worthinesse we haue also directed the gestes whereby your godlinesse may know the desires and outcries of them all Thus farre the Epistle Which if ye had withall sette downe it wold haue dashed your Marginall note and conclusion of the Popes supremacie It would haue shewed that this principalitie of priesthoode was so vnder the Princes principalitie that the Pope was faine to labour to Ualeâ—…tinian and the Empresses also to write to Theodosius that he might haue place leaue to iudge the matter And that the place of iudging it might be in Italie and the Bishop of Rome might giue sentence not as he him selfe should please but conditionally as the truth should require and that thus he would admit the Bishop of Constantinoples appeale to take place and so he sendeth all the gestes of the matter for the Emperour to peruse and know them and to graunt their petitions and desires In all whiche things though there were a principalitie of the Priestes and Bishops and chiefly of the Bishop of the chiefe emperiall Citie olde Rome so farre as appertayneth to the debating discussing and iudging the doubtes in controuersie yet so farre as appertayneth to the licencing thereto the commaunding directing ordering setting out and maintayning euen of the same Synodicall iudgements of the Bishop of Rome or any other the supreme principalitie belonged to the Emperours And this appeareth yet furder by the other Epistles that ye mention In the next Epistle of the Empresse Placidia to Theodosius the Emperour hir Sonne for the Bishops of Rome and of Constantinople after she hath shewed with what teares the Bishop of Rome moued hir to write she sheweth how all thinges were done vnorderly at Ephesus against Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople bicause sayeth she he sent a libell to the Apostolicall seate and to all the Bishops of these parties by those which were in the Councell directed from the moste Reuerende Bishop of Rome VVho are accustomed O moste holy Lorde my Sonne and Reuerent Emperour to be put according to the Decrees of Nicene Councell and for this cause let your mildenesse withstanding so great troubles commaunde the truth of the Religion of the Catholike faith to be kepte vndefiled And so ascribing a principall prerogatiue to the Bishop of Rome she desireth the Emperor that the iudgement of the matter may be sent ouer to him Which sheweth that the Bishop of Romes principalitie was vnderneath the Emperours Likewise in the next Epistle of Eudoxia to Theodosius after she hath praysed the Emperour saying It is knowne vnto all men that your mildenesse hath a care and earnest heedefulnesse of Christians and of the Catholike faith in so much that you would commaunde nothing at all to be done to the iniurie of it And after she hath shewed how the Bishop of Rome besought hir in the foresaide matter to derect hir letters to the Emperour saluting you sayth she I desire right that your tranquilitie would vouchsafe to haue care to the letters and those things that are ill done ye would commaunde them to be amended vntill that all things that also already are determined be altogither reuoked the cause of the faith and Christian religion that is moued in a Councell gathered togither in the partes of Italy may be fetched out For it is written that all this contention raysed commeth from hence that the Bishop Flauianus might be remoued from the Ecclesiasticall dealings Thus do these
Empresses write for Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople and for the Bishop of Rome Wherein though they ascribe the dealings to the Councell and to the Bishop of Rome yet the licence and authoritie to do any thing or to stay any thing they al ascribe to the Emperour And as they ascribe this in these Epistles vnto him which argueth his supreme gouernement in all these matters so the Emperour in the answeres to these Epistles that are immediatly set downe to those by you cited acknowledgeth and claymes his supreme authoritie therein In the answere to the first from whence ye bring your allegation for the Popes primacie he saith The Emperour Theodosius to my Lord Valentinian Emperour In the beginning of your letters it is signified by your Maiestie both that your mildenesse came to Rome and that a petition was offered vp to you by Leo the most reuerende Patriarche As concerning your safe returne to the Citie of Rome O my Lorde my moste holy Sonne and honorable Emperour we render thankes accordingly to the diuine Maiestie but as concerning those things which the foresaide most reuerende man hath spoken it is already declared vnto him more plainly and fully as we suppose and he knoweth that we swarue in no parte from the Religion of our fathers and the tradition of our auncetours We will no other thing than the fathers sacraments deliuered as by succession to keepe them inuiolably For this cause therefore hauing knowledge that certaine persons with hurtfull noueltie trouble the most holy Churches we haue decreed a Synod to be holden at Ephesus VVhereas in the presence of the most reuerend Bishops with much libertie and with sounde truth both the vnworthie were remoued from their Priesthood and those that were iudged to be worthy were receyued VVe therefore know nothing committed of them contrary to the rules of faith or iustice Therefore all the contention was examined of the holy Councell Flauianus which was founde giltie of hurtfull newfanglednesse hath receiued his dew and he being remoued all peace and concorde remaineth in the Churches and nothing but truth doth florish Thus the dealing and determining of the controuersie remayning Synodically to the Priests and Bishops the decreing of the Councell the assigning of the time and place thereto the giuing them in charge to boulte out the truth the receyuing intelligence from them of their iudgements the allowing and ratifying their determination belonged to Theodosius And in respect of this his supreme doing though at other times he extoll the Bishop of Rome yet here he onely calleth him but most reuerende Patriarche and most reuerend man as he calleth other Bishops The answere to the second Epistle hath the like Theodosius to my Ladie Placidia the honorable Empresse our highnesse vnderstandeth by the letters of your mildenesse what the most reuerende patriarch Leo hath desired of your highnesse To these your letters we declare that concerning those things whiche are spoken of the most reuerende Bishop we haue written often times alreadie more fully and more at large by which writing it is without doubt manifest that we haue defined or decreed or vnderstoode nothing besides the fayth of the fathers or the diuine opinions or the definitions of the most reuerende Bishops which were gathered togither in the Citie of Nice vnder Constantine of godly memorie or of late were gathered togither at Ephesus by our precept But this onely we commaunded to be ordeyned that all persons which by noisome hurtfulnesse troubled the holy Churches should worthily be remoued c. Thus doth the Emperour commaunde the Councell to be holden He giueth a generall charge to the Bishops to ordeyne that that they ordeyned to wete the expulsion or deposition of perturbers of the Church whatsoeuer they were and in what matter ecclesiasticall soeuer they were And when the Bishops had according to the Emperours commaundement ordeynes this decrée and in their synodicall discussing of the matter found out Flauianus though therein they did him wrong to be culpable hereof then the Emperor peruseth ratifieth and confirmeth the same their synodicall iudgement and sayth he defined and decreed it himselfe bicause he approued and confirmed their definition and decrée Which is a manifest argument of Thodosius supreme authoritie ouer all the Bishops debatings and determinings of their ecclesiasticall constitutions To the same effect is the other Epistle to Eudoxia Wherin he telleth the Empresse flatly that since these things were alreadie decreed it was not possible to determine of the matter any more In which deniall of suffring the matter to be tryed any further he sheweth also his supreme authoritie of debarring and frustrating any appeales to Rome that you make so great accompt vpon The Emperour will not onely not suffer it to take place and to infringe the Councels and his owne doing but sayth it is impossible to procéede on the matter alreadie determined And thus he reiecteth Flauianus appeale from the Epheâ—…ine Councell to the Bishop of Rome Which Councell notwithstanding should also haue bene held by the Emperours leaue and appoyntment But he would not allow it although Pope Lee laboured to him and to Ualentinian Emperors to Eudoria and Placidia Empresses neuer so much therefore Lo M. St. here are the generalities and the particularities also Wherein ye may sée what belongeth to eyther partie Hearken good M. Stap. and giue good aduertisement therto since ye will not vtter it your selfe and yet woulde haue vs listen to you You say ye wander not in obscure generalities but ye go to worke plainly truly and particularly And yet of all this ye speake not one word Ye would neither answerâ—… the Bishops allegation but set another agaynst it which is no plaine nor true kinde of aunswering neither yet for that you alleage ye alleage it either plainely or truely or particularly as ye pretende But cull out a piece of that that séemeth to set forth your cause by extolling the Bishop of Rome and when the matter is plainly truly and particularly sifted out it neither proueth any supremacie for him and in all poynts sheweth the Princes supremacie against you But ye are the more to be borne withall for I thinke ye read not the whole particulars but either as your commoÌ„ places led you or the title prefixed tickled you that saith In qua quoque Romani Pontificiâ—… authoritas comâ—…ndatur VVherein also the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome is commended And so gréedily ye snatched at that sentence and let go all the residue But call ye this plainly truly and particularly going to worke master Stapleton The. 26. Diuision THe Bishop hauing hitherto as master Feck required in his issue proued by the Scriptures both by the olde testament and the newe and by some such Doctours as haue written thereon and also which was more than M. Feck requested by the ecclesiasticall writers Nicephorus and by some of those Emperors whom they commend for most godly proued the like
for the visitation of persons ecclesiasticall and correcting all maner of errours heresies and offences shall be for euer vnited to the crowne of the realme of England wherin is employed that if which God forbid a Turke or any heretike whatsoeuer shoulde come to the Crowne of Englande by vertue of this statute and of the othe all maner superioritie in visiting and correcting ecclesiasticall persons in all maner matters shoulde be vnited vnto him Yea and euery subiecte should sweare that in his conscience he beleeueth so Is this a part also M. Sta. of the question in hand for the omission of a part wherof ye haue so sharply reuiled the Bishop for a false dissembler Is there no difference betwéene the kind of gouernment it self or the particulars therof the perpetual vniting of that gouernment â–ª and the same particulars to the crowne or any other suche clauses for the preferâ—…ing of it If the Bishop concealed any parte of that gouernmeÌ„t that the Quenes maiestie taketh on hir then might ye haue sée ned to haue had some cause to haue thus quarelled at the B. but then ye shuld haue set down what clauses of any point of gouernmeÌ„t in ecclesiast matters that the Quéene claimeth the Bish. omitted But this neither ye do nor ye can do but run about the bushe picking quarels that he let not downe other clauses also that be no parcel of the question in hande The question is not nowe aboute the vniting to the crowne the supremacie that hir highnesse claimeth but what that supremacie is and what are the pointes wherin it consisteth that are to be vnited The thing it selfe is one thing the vniting of the thing is an other thing The B. hath 〈◊〉 to set down the thing it self for his leuel for so the question of the issue demauÌ„deth to proue any such gouernment as the Queene taketh on hir If now the B. tell what kinde of gouernmeÌ„t it is â—…o enter into his proues to leuel theÌ„ therto doth not the B. deale playnly and truly and do you any other thaÌ„ kéepe your wonted wrnggling which way soeuer the B had goâ—… to worke For if when he vniteth himselfe only to his matter he caÌ„not satisfie your brabbling quarels but euen there suche is your impudencie ye chyde bycause he straggleth not from his question If he had vnited any thing else vnto it and spokeÌ„ of this vniting also as now ye would haue him do then woulde ye as faste haue cryed out on the other side that he shot wyde and set vp new states of the question in hande And thus woulde nothing stop your mouth ye loue of lyfe to wrangle But all these quarels are but your starting holes pretending to fynde fault with the Bishop where indéed your quarell is at an other matter to caste for a farewell at the ende of this your booke a boane for the reader to gnawe vpon to breede a suspition in his head of a greate inconuenience and so to bring him in a misliking of the state At least to leaue him striken in the head with a doubtfull scruple of the sâ—…qurle therof As who should say cracke me this nuttâ—… and there an end answere me to this inconuenience that may followe hereon If a Turke say you or any heretike whatsoeuer shoulde come to the Crown of England by vertue of this statute and of the Othe all manner superioritie in visiting and correcting Ecclesiasticall persons in all maner matters shoulde be vnited to him You haue a mischeuous meaning M. St. al the world may sée but that ye dare not vtter it without an if But thanks be to God they be no Turks nor any heretikes whatsoeuer that ye shoot at and refuse to obey God graunte all be 〈◊〉 whome ye wish in place as for your Pope whom ye would giue this supremacie vnto as he is no whit better than any heretike whatsoeuer so is he a more perillous enimie than the Turke A worsse than he can not be feared excepte yâ—… will put your case of the Diuell himselfe And shall we leaue the certayntie of a present good state for doubt of an ill to come or for feare of a worse runne to the worste of all Thankes be to God the Quéenes Maiestie whome God of his mercifull fauour hath placed to reigne ouer vs and to enioye this supremacie is neyther Turke nor heretike but a moste excellent and blessed christian Quéene a moste syncere defender of the true faith of Christe a most godlye nourse and mother of Gods people God for his mercyes sake vouchesafe to blesse and long continue hir ouer vs maugre all your spites But go to will ye say I stande not â—…n the state present It is good for hereafter to forecast the worsâ—…e â–ª What if this should happen as God forbid that a Turke or an heretike should come to the crowne of England Since there is no remedie with you M. Stapleton but we must néedes answer this your wicked presupposall for myne owne parte I will answere you thus First there is a great difference betwene a Turke and an heretike of both whome confusedly ye put your case â–ª A Turke is an open enimie to Christes religion professing Mahomet that seducers lawe An heretike pretendeth to be a christian but agréeth not with the truth of Christes doctrine so that there might be a more lykelyhod of the one than of the other For this realme being Christian and withall God 〈◊〉 thanked therefore so farre from any danger of the Turke betwene whome and vs bothe by lande and water lie many Nations that yet of the twayne the heretikes of whiche there be many and subtile â—…ortes and all pretending to be membres of the Catholike Churche of Christ were more liâ—…ly to obtaine that whiche you presuppose Nowe if a Turke aâ—… God forbad shoulde come to the crowne most lykely he coulde not get it but by tyramicall vsurpation as he doth other Countreys and then your question is aunswered for him that of right neither this authoritie nor any other vnited to the Crowne it selfe is due vnto him Neyther wil he if he be a Turke in religion althoughe â—…e woulde take the Crowne neyther coulor be if he woulde take withall this Christian kynde of Supremacie vpon hym whiche is the subuersion of his false and 〈◊〉 Religion No M. Stapl. he would not take any suâ—…e kynde of Regiment as you your selfe allow to Christian Princes and vnite vnto their crownes As for an heretike might easilyer crepe in to the obtayning the crowne of England which also God forbid for no throne chaire or citie place or people haue any warrant against this presupposall â–ª The holie temple of Hierusalem became a denne of théeues and their priests moste wicked murderers of Iesu Christ. And in the seate of Dauid sat many idolaters yea farre mo bad than good Besides that no natioÌ„ is exempted froÌ„ this threat Propter peccata populi regnare
Prince had it What if there were an heretike Pope what if there were a Pope not only by his natiue countrey a Turke but also one that practiseth priuie conspiracies leagues yea â—…reasons with the Turke against christian Princes in all mischiefe of life yea and errours of fayth also were worsse than the Turke and that the Turkes erroneous Alkaron speaketh yet more reuerently of Iesus Christ than doth the pope that pretendes to be his vicar What if there were a Iew pope or one that would cause Christians to receiue Iudaisâ—…e yea to cruâ—…e Christ agayne What if there were a heathen Pope or one that caused as grosse Idolatrie to be vsed as dyd the Paynims and beléeued as much of heauen or hell of God or the diuell of the bodies resurrection or of the soules immortalitie as the Epicures or the Saduces dyd What if there were a whoremaster Pope yea a whore Pope a Sodomiticall Pope a Iudas Pope a Neronian Pope an Antichrist Pope and suche a Pope as hath done more for the diuels kingdome than eueÌ„ the deuill him selfe could haue done If this clause were for euer vnited vnto the Pope how should we do then master St I pray you helpe vs héere at a pinche out of the briers If ye shall denie there can come any suche Popes shewe why there may not come suche hereafter as well as there hath gone suche heretofore If ye denie there hath bene any such Popes heretofore and put me to my profes wel then I must proue it and God willing so will I when ye shall bid me But if beforehand ye thinke I shal be able to do it and you wil preuent me with a shift of descant that though they were such ill Popes yet in respect they were popes they were none of al these things but in respect they were meÌ„ for so ye afterward excuse y matter to which distinctioÌ„ there you shall be answered God willing yet here admitting also this distinction why may not I replie that what soeuer the person shall be that shall haue hereafter the crowne of this realme the statute and the lawe respecteth not the man that shall haue it but the estate and authoritie that â—…e shall haue and entendeth not that he is a man but that he is a king and so medling not with his vices and affections setteth out his duetie and office what he oughte to do what maner of man he ought to be in this respect he hath this authoritie And so euery way your wicked and malicious presupposall is answered simply but truely I trust howsoeuer other woulde answere it better or as iâ—… better deserueth giue it no answere at all Nowe hauing cast foorth your presupposition as a snaring bayte to bréede a scruple of some marueylous inconuenience and after your false maner of concluding hauing inferred that of the statute that it implyeth not ye begin to buskle vp your feathers and crow saying This kinde of regiment therefore so large and ample I am right well assured ye haue not proued nor neuer shall be able to proue in the auncient Church while ye liue In déede for that kinde of regiment master Stapleton that you inferre and would as a maâ—…e set vp it is a Papal or Turkish regiment and that the Bishop shall neuer be able to proue it I bolde well with you nor be goeth about to proue it but to improue it But that kinde of regiment that he here setteth downe of the Quéenes Maiestie that will he proue and hath alreadie proued it for al this your Thrasonicall crake which I commit to muster in your common place thereon And let this his fellowe go with it for companie VVhen I say say you this kinde of regiment I walke not in confuse and generall wordes as ye doe but I restrayne my selfe to the foresayde perticulers nowe rehersed and to that platforme that I haue alreadie drawne to your hande and vnto the which master Feckenham must pray you to referre and applie your euidences otherwise as he hath so may he or any man else the chiefe poynts of all being as yet on your side improued still refuse the othe For the which doings neither you nor any man else can iustly be grieued with him You maye saye like a lustie Gentleman what ye please master Stapleton I say this kinde of regiment and that kinde of regiment and tell vs of your walkes of your restrayntes of your platformes that ye haue drawne but these are but néedelesse vauntes Tell vs of that regiment that is in question walke there a Gods name restraine your selfe to that be contente with the platforme that is alreadie drawne to your handes otherwise master Feckenham and all other will sée that ye doe but brabble And as ye would drawe the Bishop to driue his proues thither whether he is not bounde to referre them so ye doe not onely deceyue the Reader but offer wrong also euen to master Feckenham whome ye take in hande to defende and here ye make him such a childe that he knewe not how to frame his issue nor wherein he would be resolued But M. Feckenham if ye defende him thus may biâ—… you meddle with your Fortresses and let him alone with his cause And if the Bishop haue not in these two meanes satisfied the demaund of his issue then tell master Feckenham that he may still refuse the othe But if the Bishop haue proued by any of these two poynts the Scriptures or the Doctours master Feckenhams issue that he desired to be proued that is any such gouernment as the Queenes Maiestietaketh on hir in ecclesiasticall causes then can not maister Fecken iustly refuse the othe but must vvith heartie thanks yelde therevnto as he hath promised by wryting to the Bishop or else he shall be holden as an vniust man and as obstinate a wrangling Papist as you shewe your selfe to be Which wilfull refusall though it be a griefe to all the godly affected that beholde your frowarde blindnesse yet shall it be the lesse griefe vnto them when they sée that neyther truth nor honestie will reclaime you Here after the vaunts of your selfe and the excusing of master Feckenham ye enter into your thirde part of excusing all the Papists calling it in your margine A reasonable defence of the Catholikes for refusing the othe This reasonable defence hath two partes the one the excuse of the Papists the other the accusing of the Bishop For the former sayth master Stapleton As neither with vs master Horne ought you or any man else be grieued for declaring the truth in this poynt as if we were discontented subiects or repining against the obedience we owe to our gracious Prince and countrey No man is grieued with you master Stapleton as ye pretende for declaring the truth in this poynt or any other but onely for your not declaring the truth but concealing the truth and outfacing the matter with false countenances of
to make an ende of questioning This in the statute by master Hornes silence is not comprised True in déede M. Stapl. this kinde of iudgement is not mentioned by the Bishop â–ª but it is moste falsly mentioned by you For where ye say this in the statute moste maliciously ye slaunder the statute for this in the statute is neither named comprised or can be gathered thereon Neither the Quéenes Maiestie claymeth or taketh on hir this kinde of iudgement It is due onely to Gods worde and your Pope and popishe Churche violently snatcheth it from Gods worde chalenging it to them selues euen aboue Gods worde it selfe although they agrée not héerein togither For the popishe Churche will be aboue the Pope in thys poynt of iudgement maugre his bearde and yet they graunt the Pope to be their supreme gouernour ecclesiasticall Though they will not relent to him this supreme iudgement but giue it to the Churches iudgement And therefore they be of a contrarie iudgement to you that say this poynt is moste necessarie meete and conuenient for a supreme gouernour ecclesiastical By which poynt you wil make your Pope either no supreme gouernour eccl ouer you or spoyle him of a most necessarie meete and couenient poynt of the supreme gouernment that ye giue him but these are your iarres agrée as ye wil like cats in a glitter about theÌ„ This popish churches or papall iudgement the Q. Maiestie taketh not vpon hir nor the statute ascribeth it vnto hir and therefore the B. had nought to do therewith Yet haue we one thing more which after a couple of your slauÌ„ders that I answere not but referre to your common place thereon ye charge the Bishop once more for this omission Agayne say you preaching the worde administration of the sacraments bynding and loosing â–ª are they not things and causes eccl How then are they heere omitted by you master Horne or how make you the supreme gouernment in all causes to rest vpon the Queenes Maiestie if these causes haue no place there What should a man vse many words with suche a brabler who though he haue nought to say yet will neuer lâ—…e saying of that which is nought to purpose Ye have beene often inough and fully inoughe answered to this master St. if the Quéenes Maiestie taketh not these thinges vpon hir then the B. omitteth not any thing that hir highnesse taketh on hir in omitting these things Neither doth the â–ª sratute yéelde vnto hir the doing of them It is but your slaunderous obtruding of the statute It giueth a supreme gouernmeÌ„t in al these things to the Q. Maiestie And so these causes haue place there so farre as is néedful to a supreme gouernour But from a supreme gouernour which consisteth in caring for ordering directing prouiding guyding maynteining setting foorth to the executing doing preaching and administring of those things is as farre from any good conclusion as you your matter are farre from truthe and honestie Neuerthelesse such is your great coÌ„fidence in this your Counterblast as though ye had so puft vp the falshood therof that no man could espie it ye lustely blowe vp the last blast of this your first booke saying VVhich is nowe better I appeale to all good consciences playnly to maynteine the truthe than dissemblingly to vphold a falsshod playnly to refuse the othe so generally conceiued than generally to sweare to it beeing not generally meaned â–ª But nowe let vs see how M. Horne wyll direct his proufes to the scope appoynted Why may not you appeale to all good consciences M. Stap. as well as that mayden Priest of yours that mighte bidde his maydenhead Goodmorrowe and haue as good a conscience for your owne parte as he for his parte had a maydenhead And to shew your good conscience for a farewell while ye shake handes at the very parting ye lash â–ª out a couple of slaunderous vntruthes togither Ye haue not many words to speake and therfore ye huddle them vp You say the othe is conceiued so generally that it giueth to the Prince your foresayde absolute power of determining all doubts and controuersies of preaching the worde administration of the sacraments bynding and loosing This lie to lappe vp all in the ende was worthe a whetstone M. Stapl. and his fellowe that iutteth with him chéeke by chéeke is as good as he That the othe generally conceyued is not generally meaned But set aside your malitious meaning to wrest the othe and the othe is playne and all one bothe in wordes and meaning But howe soeuer the othe were not so generally conceiued your meaning is playnely to refuse the othe And therefore héere in the ende for a remembraunce to all the rest you must néedes strike vp the stroke with ala lia and desperatly without al dissembling for the matter vpholde a falshoode with falshoodes euen to the laste breathe Et fiunt nouissima illius hominis peiora prioris And the latter ende of that man is worsse than the beginning ¶ The answere to foure Chapters in Doctor Saunders seconde booke of the visible Monarchie of the Churche concerning the question here in hande of a Christian Princes supreme gouernment in Ecclesiasticall causes First of the difference of both povvers the ciuill and Ecclesiastical in the original in the vse and in the end of eyther Secondly vvhether the Prince be the Supreme gouernour immediatly vnder Christ. Thirdly vvhether the Prince may iudge and define of ecclesiasticall matters Fourthly whether Bishops maye depose Princes from their estate and take from the realme their povver of electing their Prince if they differ in religion from their Bishops VVhich foure chapters I thought good here to answere vnto both bicause he is the last writer and chiefest novve of accompte among the aduersaries And these chapters aboue al other in his volume both draw neerest to the question of the Princes estate and shew vvithall the full drift of the Papists not only striuing agaynst the Princes supremacie but into vvhat extreme slauerie they vvould reduce all Christian Kinges and kingdomes The argument of the fyrst Chapter of the difference betweene the Ciuile and Ecclesiasticall Magistrate in the originall in the vse and in the ende of bothe MAster Saunders firste beginning with the original lconfesseth that both powers are of God but not both immediatly from God the ciuile power he granteth to be of God but by the lawe of Nations or the consent of people and other meanes of mans wit put betweene But streight he correcteth himselfe that some thing in the ciuill authoritie was reuealed immediatly from God yea Per multa in lege Mosaica diuinitus instituta suerunt verie manie things pertaining to the ciuill power were in Moses law ordeyned of God. And thus at the fyrst he speaketh contraries Herevpon he concludeth thus I thinke therfore it is agreed vpon among all men that the royal imperial power which at this day is exercised in
the church in euery cause wherof it is not otherwise disposed in the new testament is to be holden of the law of nations or of lawe ciuil To this I answer First this in part is true but in part so false that himself confutes himself making exceptioÌ„ of diuers things in the ciuill power that sproong immediatly froÌ„ God neither were those things as he falsly saithe Circa res terrenas about earthly matters but about ecclesiasticall matters in the law of Moyses And although their ceremonial causes and iudicials pertayning to ecclesiasticall matters in the ciuil power be taken away with the ceremoniall and indiciall lawe of the Iewes yet the ciuil power hath like authoritie in the like causes ecclesiastical of the new testameÌ„t as is shewed out of S. Aug. against M. St. the Donatistes Secondly where he sayeth all the ciuil power nowe of christian kings and Emperors is all of the law of nations or ciuil except in cases otherwise disposed in the new testament I answer this may well be graunted and yet the ciuil power hath authoritie ouer ecclesiasticall persons in causes ecclesiastical for so not only in the old testament but also in the newe Testament it is playnly disposed Thirdly to this diuision of the original of both these estates that the ecclesiastical is from God immediatly the ciuil by other meanes I answere this distinction faileth both by his own tale saying Ciuilis à deo plerunque est per media quaedam the ciuil power is oftentimes from God by certain meanes If it be oftentimes by certaine meanes then it is not alwayes and but accidentall not of the nature of the estate for so it is also immediatly from God. And the like accident falleth out likewise of the ecclesiastical estate that although the power be immediatly from God yet many causes in it called Ecclesiastical be also Per media quadam humani ingenij interposita by certain meanes of mans wit put betwene For this cause sayth M. sand the ciuil power among the heathen that know not god is found to be the same that is extant with faithful kings although Christ wold not haue such power in the ministers of his kingdom for he said the Princes of the nations rule ouer them and they that are iuniors exercise power ouer them so shall it not be among you I answere first Maister Saunders this is a like slander to M. Stapletons fo 29. a. b. The ciuil power is not found to be the same in heathen Princes that knowe not God and in Christian Princes that know God there is a very great difference betwene these so different estates wherin the one acknowledgeth all his power to be of God and hath it described and limited by Gods word the other takes it al for hu main naturall not so much as knowing God by your own confession from whome the originall of it springeth Secondly to that you saye suche power is debarred by Christe from his ministers If yée meane by suche power suche power as is among the Heathen suche is not onely debarred from them but from christian Princes too If ye meane suche power as Christian Princes haue is debarred from the ministers of Christ then say ye true But howe then dothe youre Pope chalenge and vsurpe bothe suche and the same also Yea your selfe afterwarde reason moste earnestly thoroughout all the fourth chapter following that the ministers of Christe may haue it Wherin ye speak cleane contrary both to Christ and to your self Thirdly I note this eyther youre grosse ignoraunce or your impudent falshood in altering the wordes of Christe He sayth not they that are iuniors or yongers the Texte is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they that are great whiche are cleane contrarie If M. Stapleton were your aduersarie he would rattle ye vp Master Saunders for so foule a scape Nowe to fortifie a difference betwéene the Ecclesiastical power and the Ciuill he vrgeth that the spiritual kingdom of Christ is in this worlde but not of this worlde as for the earthly kingdome is bothe in and of this world but the ecclesiasticall power is the spirituall kingdome of Christ therfore there is a difference but the spirituall kingdom of Christ excelleth all worldlyâ—… kingdomes therfore they are stark fooles that in any ecclesiasticall thing to be administred preferre the earthly kings before the pastors of the Churche I answere all these conclusions are impertinent If there be any follie it is to striue for that that is not in controuersie We graunt a difference betwixt both powers and kingdomes althoughe a question is to be moued what he meaneth here by ecclesiasticall power If he take it as the Papistes do we denie that ecclesiasticall power to be the spiritual kingdome of Christ. For their ecclesiasticall power is ouermuch not in the worlde but of the worlde also If he meane by ecclesiasticall power the spirituall kingdome of Christ as he in his word hath ordeyned the fame although there be a difference betwene the power in the kingdom and the kingdome in the which the power is yet we graunt this gladly that no wise man will preferre the earthly kings in any spiritual thing to be administred before the pastors of the churche But this is nothing againste the earthly kings preferment ouer the spirituall pastor to ouersée him rightly and spiritually to administer his spirituall things in the ministration whereof all earthly kings oughte to giue place vnto him which we did neuer denie And sith there is no comparison betwene Christ the sonne of God who is also God himself and a creature of the law natural or ciuill neither is there any comparison betwixt the power ecclesiastical which is wholly giue vnto vs by only Christ the mediator the power royall which either altogether or almost altogether is not ordeined of God but by the lawe of nations or ciuill for although God hath reuealed froÌ„ heauen that belongeth to the power royall if notwithstandyng that pertained not to eternall saluation which is hid in Christ but to contein peace among men that is to be reckned to be reuealed no otherwise than to be a certain declaration which he had grafted in vs by Nature or else euen necessitie ought to haue wroong out of vs or profite according to the seedes of nature ought to haue brought to light I answere first we graunt that the ecclesiastical power not as the Papists stretche it but as it is giuen vnto vs by only Christ the mediator is farre superior without all comparison than the royal power of Princes Howbeit this hindreth not but as the ministers are mediators thereof to vs the royall power of Princes hath againe an other superior gouernment to ouersée that there be no other ecclesiasticall power exercised by the mediation of the Minister than Christ the only mediator hath ordeyned And to remoue all popish â—…oysting in giuing vs quid pro quo whiche when
olde testament the Prince was otherwise than in the foresayde respects inferiour to the Priest and people It remaineth sayth he that we proue the king of the Hebrue nation to haue ben lesse than his nation and his Bishop VVho shall bee a better iudge in this cause than euen God himselfe For he entreating of sacrifices for sinne committed by ignorance distinguisheth foure sortes of men For either the anoynted priest sinneth or the people or the Prince or the priuate person Of these foure sortes the anoynted Prieste helde the firste place the people of Israell the seconde place the Prince the third place the priuate man the last place If the Prieste that is anoynted shall haue sinned making the people to offende he shall offer for his sinne an vnspotted ' Bullocke without blemishe vnto the Lorde But if all the people of Israell shall haue doone of ignorance that whiche is contrarie to the commaundement of the Lorde and shall afterwarde vnderstande their sinne the people shall offer a Bullocke for their sinne If the Prince shall haue sinned and among many thinges shall doe ought by ignorance that is forbidden by the Lawe of the Lorde and shall afterwarde vnderstande his sinne he shall offer for an offering to the Lorde from among the she Goates an he Goate vnspotted But if any soule of the people of the lande shall haue sinned through ignorance hee shall offer a shee Goate vnspotted Loe foure sacrifices whereof the moste worthy is the Bullocke whiche is offered as well for the Prieste as for all the people The hee Goate is but of the nexte worthynesse the which the King offered Therefore euen as the Prince is prefered before the priuate man so al the people is preferred before the Prince but the anoynted Prieste is preferred before them both This argument is taken from the Sacrifices for sinnes in the olde Testament and is nothing pertayning to gouernment and therfore can infer no necessarie but wrested conclusion therevnto Nowe as this matter is nothing to the present purpose so his argumentes thereon argue the greater follie the more nicely he standeth on them He driueth thē to infer a superioritie by two reasons the one of the more worthy Sacrifice the other of the order placing the discription of these Sacrifices Of the Sacrifice he reasoneth on the more worthy beast as thus He that offered the more worthy beast was the more worthy in authoritie But the highe Prieste and the people offered a more worthe beaste than dyd the Prince Ergo the highe Priest and the people were more worthy in authoritie than the Prince The Maior he taketh for graunted after his manner ▪ The Minor he proueth thus A Bullocke is a more worthie beast than a Goate But the highe Priest and the people offered a Bullocke the Prince but a Goate Ergo they offered a more worthie beaste I aunswere to this worthy if not rather beastly argument made from a Bullocke as I remember once a Papiste sayde in Cambridge of a righte worthie Doctor of hys owne Popishe Church his name quoth he is Doctor Bullocke but per contractionem it maye be Doctor Blocke and so this is a Bullockishe argument but per contractionem it is a very blockishe argument and farre more fitte for Doctour Bullock thā for Doctor Sanders to haue made except that he be made Bullatus Doctor I graunt there was great differences to be obserued in the thinges offered howe beit the worthynesse of the Sacrifice laye not in the things offered but euery Sacrifice had this or that kynd of matter appointed to be offered as the wisdome of God thoughte fittest to expresse the nature of that sinne or propitiation whereof it was a Sacrifice A Lyon is counted a more worthy beast than a Bullocke and yet was it counted an vncleane beast In the second chapter going before this alledged God saith of flower and Corne offered which is not so worthy a thing as is a beast it is the most holy of the offerings of the Lorde made by fire In the thirde Chapter he saithe if he offer a Lambe for his oblation and afterwarde he sayth and if his offerings be a Goate A Goate is a more worthy beast than Lambe But what shall we conclude hereon for the more worthynesse of the Persons authoritie that offered all these and other more different things But nowe if a Bullocke be the moste worthy beast dyd not many Kings many times offer many Bullockes Did not also the high Priests offer other things for themselues besides bullockes in the. 8. chapter of Leuit. a bullocke and ◅ ram was offered for Aaron and his sonnes but here the bullocke is still placed before the ram as a more worthie beast by maister Saunders reason But in the ninth chapter he sayth And in the. 8. daye Moyses called Aaron and his sonnes and the elders of Israel and then he said to Aaron take thee a yong calfe for a sinne offering and a ram for a burnte offering both without blemishe and bring them before the Lorde and vnto the Children of Israel saying take ye an hee Goate for a sinne offering and a Calfe and a Lambe both of a yeare olde without blemishe for a burnt offering also a Bullocke and a ram for a peace offering here is a yong calfe preferred before a bullocke for the Priests sin offering and a ram before a Calfe yea a bullocke and a ram for the people and but a yong calfe and a ram for the high Priest and so the people by this reason shoulde be more worthie than the high Priest and equall at the least they are made euen in this place that M. Saunders so narrowly examineth for the Priest and the people offer a bullocke both of them Now if the dignitie of the beast sacrificed will not inferre the dignitie of the man offering the sacrifice yet wil master Saunders enforce his argument furder from the dignitie of the place in the order of naming eche persons sacrifyce as thus He that is former placed is former in dignitie and hee that is placed later is inferior in dignitie But the priest annointed held the first place the people of Israel the second place the Prince the thirde place the priuate man the last place Ergo the Prince is inferior in dignitie to the Priest and the people and onely superior to the priuate man. I answere this is as meane if not a worser argumente than the other from the former place in recitall to the former place in dignitie Maister Saunders owne order of his booke in this selfe same treatise confuteth himselfe In hys firste booke he examineth the peoples authoritie In his seconde booke the Princes authoritie in his thirde booke the Priests authoritie shall wee v◅gehim herevpon that he ment to giue the people superior authoritie to Princes and Princes superior authoritie vnto Priests he will saye be ment it not
vvere in times past the Leuitical priests yea rather sith the Apostle treating of the Ministers of the nevve Testament conferring them with the olde Leuites sayth that they ministred death and the letter that killed but these minister the spirit which quickneth and righteousnesse and therfore the ministers of the nevve Testament are more vvorthie than the olde Leuites vvhat maner of king shal vve thinke him to bee vvhiche contemning the ministers of the nevve Testamente calleth himselfe the supreme head of his Christian kingdome and that immediatly vnder Christ This comparison Maister Saunders of the ministers of the olde and nevve Testament rightly vnderstood wée acknowledge The nevve is more vvorthy than the olde but the vvorthinesse and glory of the nevv ministration that saint Paule speakes on is spirituall and not outvvard glory For although the ministers of the olde Testament had outwarde glory and some of them by especiall calling had the visible supreme and ciuill gouernement although seldome yet the ministers of the nue testament are by Christ as your owne selfe haue confessed flatly forbidden it Vos autem non sic but you shall not be so And therefore where ye woulde haue them of no lesse dignitie meaning of outvvard glory and gouernment or else your example holdes not they are of farre lesse dignitie therein notwithstanding in a spirituall and invvarde glory they are againe of a farre greater dignitie than the olde Which spirituall dignitie if any King shoulde contemne you might then well demaunde vvhat maner of king he were and we woulde answere you hée were a wicked King but as these are two distinct dignities the spirituall dignitie of the minister and the visible supremacie of the King so may they be and are with vs well and godly vsed both of them Where both the Prince hath the outward dignitie of supreme head or gouernour vnder Christ and yet the ministers spirituall dignitie is not onely no whit contemned but hath his honor yelded due vnto him And therefore we denie not that which followeth For if he acknowledge not the Ministers of Christe ouer him he can not be blessed of them VVherevpon neither can he be pertaker of the sanctifying spirite whose ministers they are We graunt Maister Saunders that the Prince humbly receiueth their blessing and is partaker of the holy spirite of God whose ministers they are in these actions Wherein the Prince acknowledgeth them to represent God and is vnder them But what hindreth this that in other respectes they againe are vnder him and he their supreme gouernour but Maister Saunders procéedeth saying Dauid cryeth and nowe ye kings vnderstande and be ye learned ye that iudge the earth apprehend discipline least the Lorde waxe wroth and ye perishe oute of the right waye But if kings must be learned then so farre forth they must be vnder For he that is learned is learned of some maister and is scholler to him of whome he is learned the disciple is not aboue his maister but in that thing that he learneth of his maister of necessitie he is inferior That kings ought to be learned we gladly confesse and are glad that you confesse it althoughe againste your wylls for ye would rather haue them altogither vnlearned whom ye haue so long detained in blindnesse But why woulde ye haue them nowe learned forsothe bicause you would onely be their maisters and so they shoulde be still your vnderlings not onely in learning suche ill lessons as you woulde teache them but vnder pretence of teachers to be their gouernours too True it is in that the teacher teacheth he is aboue and in that the learner learneth he is vnder â—…ut the teacher is not aboue nor the learner vnder in other things Thoughe Moyses learned of Iethro yet in gouernement Moyses was aboue him Thoughe Dauid learned of Nathan yet in gouernement he was aboue him Thoughe Ozias learned of Iudith yet in gouernement he was aboue hir And so all princes that are taughte of their schole maisters their scholemaister maye be the better in learning but he is the worser in authoritie And thoughe he be the maister in knowledge yet he makes euen his knowledge wherby he is maister to serue the Prince also Yea although the Prince be not his maister in learning yet in all causes of learning the Prince hath a generall supreme gouernement to sée by his lawes euery kinde of learning maintayned in his order to forbid naughtie artes to be learned to appoint such suche an order methode to be taught or learned as learned men enforme him is good and easie to the attaining of learning to appaynt scholes and learned scholemaisters for learning and to giue them lawes statutes and stipendes for the maintenance of learning all this may the Prince doe by his supreme authoritie ouer all learned persons and in all causes of learning althoughe he himselfe be altogether vnlearned and can not one letter on the booke Althoughe woulde to God all Princes were learned not as the Papistes woulde haue them but as Dauid was and exhorteth all Princes to bée And thus as thys sentence makes nothing in the worlde for him so hys example thereon makes verye muche againste him But for all thys argumente be thus simple he wyll loâ—…de vs with further proues saying Sithe therefore it is sayde to the Apostles Go teache ye all nations and sith vnder the names of nations the kings of them are comprehended and Byshops and Priests haue succeeded the Apostles in the office of teaching truely in the offyce of teachyng the Byshoppe is greater than his king so farre is it off that the king can be the Bishops hed in all things causes VVhich title notwithstanding is not onely of these men giuen to a king but also by publique decree of late in Englande giuâ—…n vnto a Queene To reason froÌ„ teaching to gouerning is no good teaching M. SauÌ„ders If ye teach this doctrine theÌ„ your Pope should haue little gouernment for God wot he teacheth little being often times vnlearned and alwayes to proud to teache If ye say he teacheth by others so caÌ„ a prince too And though he could himselfe teache and would also teach the truth and not suppresse it yet sith ye say he succedes the Apostles but in the office of teaching he is no furder superior than he teacheth by your owne reckoning Neither would this superioritie be denyed him of any that he ought to teache if he in dâ—…de succeded the Apostles But if the succession of the Apostles consist in teaching as here ye confesse then hath not the Pope to crake muche of succeeding Peter and Paule that teacheth not as Peter and Paule did as woulde to God he did and all priests or Bishops else Whiche if they did and taught truely this woulde augment and not diminishe the Princes supreme authoritie yea and the Quéenes too Maister Saunders for in gouernement before ye
had not deliuered vs from it and yet sée if these Papistes that can so narrowly spie and proll at euery note in king Henry and kings Edwards dayes can in Quéene Maries dayes espie anye one of these great beames that were such apparante tokens of gods wrath that all men sawe and felt what euents succeeded the refusall of this title and the yéelding it to the Pope nerehand the cleane subuersion of this Realme if we may iudge by sequels Now after Quéene Marie he comes to the Quéenes Maiestie that now God be praised most prosperously raigneth ouer vs. But vvhen very many giuen to heresies vvere offended at this notable modestie of the Queene neither vvould they yet vnderstande his Counsell in gouerning his Churche God brought to passe that Marie of happie memorie being dead the kingdome of England should deuolue to such a vvoman as novve vvriteth hir selfe The supreme gouernesse in all matters and causes asvvell ecclesiasticall as secular That yet so at the length by the successe it selfe men of hard harte and obstinate necke mighte marke hovv euill king Henry tooke this office vpon him the vvhiche of his heire and successour could not duely and orderly be fulfilled For to whom it is not permitted to teach vvhich is the most necessarie office of an ecclesiasticall Head hovv shal she performe those greater offices that are occupied in the chastisement and correction of them that ought to teache the people or shall she vvhich is vnvvorthie that she should hir selfe teache publiquely in the lovvest degree moderate and reprehend vvith lavvful authoritie other publique teachers in the highest degree or if she can not lavvfully reprehend them shall she yet be lavvfully supreme gouernesse of the Church I omit here the things that in these yeares vvhich are last passed haue bene I knovv not hovv vncomely done and preached in Englande vnder such supreme heads of the Church I spare the dignitie of theÌ„ that gouerne Another time if God vvill I vvill handle them particularly hovve greatly both from the lavve of God and from the sentence of the auncient Churche and from righte reason that state of a common vveale is farre in vvhiche any king arrogateth to himselfe the office and name of the supreme head of the Church Is your part so false and weake of proues Maister Saunders that it can win no credite but by discrediting of ours with sclaunders and yet we woulde pardon this in you ascribing it either to some passion of choler against your aduersaries or to blinde affection of your selues that ye call verie manie of vs giuen to heresies hard harted and obstinate necked which are termes fitter to muster in M. Stapletons coÌ„mon places than to stuffe vp M. doctor Saunders volumes howe they redownde vpon your selues let other iudge â–ª that will reade and view of both But if we forgiue you this for our parts shal we stil suffer you to raile vpoÌ„ sclander the Lordes annoynted saying she arrogateth to hir selfe the office and name of the supreme Head of the Church speaking at randon withoute limitation of the Churche as the Pope doth arrogate to himselfe and taketh on hir to be an ecclesiasticall head and publique teacher of other that should teach hir these are too too infamous sclauÌ„ders of hir Maiestie that claimeth no such title nor attempteth any such thing What supreme gouernement is ascribed to hir highnesse we haue tolde you a thousand times but I sée ye will not vnderstand it bicause ye would of set purpose sclander it But to knit vp your argument of the euent and sequele of the Quéenes Maiesties raigne ye say many things haue bin done and preached in England ye cannot tell hovv vnsemely â—… thinke euen the same M. Saunders ye can not tell howe â—…ndede But howe vnseemely a thing is this for one of your â—…rofession to chalenge ye cannot tell what nor howe ye set owne nothing but vnder a pretence of sparing vs to bréede â—…et a furder sclaunderous suspition ye threat vs that ye will â—…serue theÌ„ til a furder leisure that is to say ad Kalendas graecas til â—…e shall first know them and then be able to proue them in the meane seasoÌ„ ye take the wisest way to say such ther are but what they are ye cannot now tell ye wil learne theÌ„ out and tell vs another time but tell the worste ye canne ye shal neuer be able to tell of any fals doctrine preached and by the Prince approued to be preached nor of anye wicked facte allowed by publike authoritie to be done No Maister Saunders in all the Quéenes Maiesties raigne ye can neuer be able to proue any suche things but in the raigne of your Popes we can proue many such things as whordome committed and maintained murder done and maintained Idolatry vsed and maintained and infinite errors preached and maintained by publique authoritie among the Papists As for the Quéenes maiesties raigne that now is if the euent and sequele may make an argument God hath so blessed it maugre all your spites and practises that no Realme christian hath florished like nor Englande more at anye tyme The Lord be praised for it and for his mercie sake long continue it that hath giuen so goodly a token of his well liking hir Maiesties supreme gouernment The thirde Chapter The argument is that Princes can not iudge nor define in causes Ecclesiasticall OF those errors that are about the povver of kings and magistrats the secoÌ„d error is of theÌ„ that thinke kings are not in dede the chief heads of the Churches in vvhich they raigne but in certaine causes Ecclesiastiall to bee euen as vvorthie members as Bishops â–ª for although in one certaine thing as in the office of teaching they preferre Bishops before kings yet partly in another Ecclesiasticall matter as in deposing a Byshop from his seat or in moderating any synode they preferre kings before Bishops partly they vvill haue it free for kings that almoste in euery ecclesiasticall matter they may knowe and decerne as Iudges Of the confutation of whiche errour this is the reason that I should shewe in euery cause of the ecclesiastical lawe that is to be knowne and iudged Kinges to be so muche in the place of priuate men that this trial can not of the ecclesiasticall Iudges be committed vnto them Although I denie not but that of some facte that perteyneth to the eccl. lawe the knowledge may be committed to Kinges and Magistrates But before the eccl. cause be known the king may orderly intermeddle his authoritie to that ende that a quiet place may be graunted where the Bishops should iudge And also that the Bishops may be called at a certayne day to that place And that in the meane season whyle the ecclesiasticall cause is knowne the publique peace yea euen in the assembly of Priestes may be conserued To conclude after the cause knowne and iudged of the Pristes the king either by the sworde that he
beareth not in vayne or by some other bodily punishment may correct him if any man shall refuse to obey the Priestes sentence Therefore we denie not but that bothe before and about and after the Bishoply iudgement there are some partes of kinges but in the office of iudging kings can do more than can priuate men For either of them can bothe giue counsell and shewe what they thinke good but neither of them can define what the diuine or eccl. lawe declareth in that matter VVhiche thing thus declared let vs nowe come to the proofe of the matter it selfe All this then either néedeth none or little answere M. Saunders béeing barely anouched without any proofe to the whiche ye are not yet come but onely declare what ye will denie or graunt to Princes Your graunt we take and sée ye go not from it But will all your fellowes yea wyll your Pope him selfe graunt so muche that the Emperour shall by his authoritie appoynt the certayne place and day where and when the Bishops shal holde their Councels It was wont to be so in the olde time But will your Pope suffer this nowe and that kinges shall do the lyke in their kingdomes Nay M. Sauâ—…ders he will mislike of this and say ye graunt too large a thong of another mans leather howesoeuer you would by qualification eate your grauntâ—… agayne cleane contrarying your selfe ascribing no more to Princes than to priuate men And yet agayn you graunt that bothe of them may giue counsell and shewe what they thinke good in ecclesiasticall matters although they can not determine them Goe to master Saunders till you bring your proofes we will take this graunte also of your liberalitie that Princes may giue counsell and shewe what they thinke good A good manie of your side will not graunt so muche nor you but for a countenaunce sake neither Althoughe yée doe them open iniurie to compare them qualle beeing publique estates to priuate menne As for your determination of Gods law what you meane thereby when yée shewe your meaning playner we will aunswere to it Nowe to your proofes Master Saunders proofes in this Chapter kéepe this order first he alleageth the reasons for his partie Secondly he aunswereth oure obiections Hys firste reason is this Those things that are of God man can not dispose them otherwyse than if God gyue vnto them suche authoritie â–ª but the causes of faythe chiefly of all other are of GOD bycause faythe is the moste necessarie gyfte of GOD that no man can obtayne to him selfe by any force either of nature or arte the causes therefore of fayth can not be iudged of other than of them to whome God hath giuen that power I aunswere the partes of thys argument be true 〈◊〉 the conclusion noughte for there is more in the conclusion than in the premisses â–ª The conclusion shoulde haue 〈◊〉 Therefore 〈◊〉 can not dispose the causes of fayth otherwyse than if God giue them suche authoritie Howebeit we simply denie not M. Saunders conclusion but would haue him distinguish what he meanes by iudgeing 〈◊〉 he meane disposing causes of fayth otherwise than God hath already in his word disposed them or else his argumente hathe no sense nor sequele then the conclusion as it is not proued so is it apparant false Neyther giue we suche iudgement to Princes or to any other creature for suche power God hath giuen to none Althoughe the Popishe priestes falsly clayme suche power to dispose matters of fayth otherwyse than God disposed them But master 〈◊〉 will proue hys conclusion on thiâ—… wyse But God hath giuen suche power to certayne men and not at large to all Christian people Therefore none haue it but they The antecedent he proues from Saincte Paule Ephesians the fourth For God hathe ordeyned some Apostles other Prophets other Euangelistes other Pastors and Teachers to the ediâ—…ying of his mysticall body whiche is the Churche But other hee made as it were sheepe and lambes that they shoulde bee edifyed by their pastors and teachers and too whome their pastors shoulde attende that they should not be caried awaye with euerie blaste of doctrine by the subtiltie of man. I answere agayne as before If he meane by iudgeing â—…eaching with sounde iudgement it is true and this senâ—…ence well applyed but if he meane as his principall â—…roposition was whereon all dependes Disposing thinâ—…es of faythe otherwise Then wée denie the anteceâ—…ente and the conâ—…equence too As for thys sentence â—…roues no suche iudgement giuen to any of these persons but rather confutes it as not to edifie but to destroy and to be caried away by the subtiltie of men with euery blast of doctrine if men might dispose otherwise of fayth than God him selfe hath dispoâ—…ed Nowe vpon this sentence of S. Paule for Pastors be reasoneth thus But Pastors only iudge what is fit or not fit for the sheepe For to conclude that sheepe are indued with equal power to Pastors this were nothing else but to take away the differeÌ„ce that Christ hath set betweene the Pastors and the sheepe and the thinges that he hath distinguyshed to mingle and confounde them Kinges therefore and Magistrates if they be counted sheepe in the floâ—…ke of Christ as in deede sheepe they are iudge not togither with the Pastors The argument is thus made formall Pastors do onely iudge what is fit or not fit for the sheepe But Princes are not Pastors but sheepe of the flocke of Christ. Ergo Princes do not iudge what is fit or not fit for them The maior he proueth thus To conclude that the sheepe haue equall power with Pastors is nothing else but to mingle and confounde and take away the difference that Christ hath set betweene the Pastors and the sheepe But if Princes should iudge the sheepe should haue equall power Ergo For Princes to iudge were to mingle confound and take away the difference that Christ hath set betweene the Pastors and the sheepe First to the maior I answere he siftes the similitude of a shepherde and shéepe too narrowe For although in some resemblaunces it holde yet is it not simply true that the Pastor onely iudgeth what is fitte or not fitte for this kinde of sheepe He him selfe confesseth before and after agayne confesseth that the priuate man or Princes may giue counsell and priuate iudgement And S. Paule speaking not of the pastor but of the spiritual man that is of the sheepe of God sayth Spiritualis omnia iudicat the spiritual man iudgeth all thinges And Christe biddes the people beware of false prophets which can not be without iudgement Neyther is this sufficient proofe of the maior that he alleageth to contende that the sheepe hath equal power is to confounde Christes distinction Wée graunte this it were so But this wée denie that héereby the sheepe is made to haue equall power For the iudgement of the pastor is one thing
and the power of the pastor is another althoughe it oughte to haue iudgement concurring with it Neither ascribe wée iudgement alike to the pastors and the sheepe although in this spirituall kinde of sheepe some of them haue more sounde and perfect iudgement than their pastors To the minor I answere it is not simply true neyther for in one sense not onely the pastors them selues are lyke wyse sheepe but also the Princes them selues are pastors In the former sense euery faythfull Christian is a sheepe vâ—…der Christe the onely shepehearde and must heare his voyce And so the Prieste is a shéepe also or else he shall neuer be in the folde of the Churche nor placed at the righte hande of Christe In the other sense not onely the Prince is suche a Pastor as Homer calleth Agaâ—…emnon and rules and féedes the body and so the Priestes are his sheepe as well as other subiectes but also in protection setting foorth of Gods worde throughout his Dominions he is their pastor too in appoynting the pastors to féede the sheepe onely in Gods pastures And in this sense we ascribe supreme Pastorship vnto him ouer the Priest also Althoughe in the ministerie of the worde and Sacramentes the Prieste agayne is his superiour pastor and the Prince is but his sheepe But master Saunders replies But if they be counted as Pastors I aske whence they proue it that Christe gaue them suche power for what haue they that they haue not receiued but Christ as he tooke not awaye or diminished the auncient power of kinges graunted by the lawe of Nations so neither annexed he vnto them a newe power of feeding his sheepe Moreouer the auncient power of kinges althoughe it be of God yet is it of him by the meane of the lawe of Nations and the Ciuill and not by any especiall and chiefe constitution of the Gospell as is before declared If therefore Kinges and polytike Magistrates haue any power in causes of faythe either they receiued it from the lawe naturall of Nations and of the Ciuill or of the lawe of God that is reuealed to the Churche But to beginne with the later member firste by the lawe of God that is reuealed to the Churche no suche thing is graunted to kinges For nothing else is reuealed in the newe Testament concerning Princes than that that is Cesars shoulde be giuen to Cesar that tributes shoulde be payde that kings should be prayed for that bothe the King and the gouernours sent from him should be obeyed and finally that al power proceedeth froÌ„ God that euery Magistrate beares not the sworde in vaine but in that matter is to be acknowledged to be Gods minister Moreouer none of these places do bid the king by name dispose of the Churche of Christ or in causes of fayth to arrogate ought to him self The argument in briefe is thus If princes be counted as pastors they haue suche power giuen them But they haue no suche power giuen them Ergo They are not counted as pastors I answere firste to the maior rightly vnderstoode it is true that if princes may be counted as pastors the authoritie is giuen them But it is truely to be vnder stoode by distinction of pastorall authoritie Secondly to the minor that Princes haue no pastorall authoritie giuen them it is false Neither doe his proues proue it If any were giuen them it was giuen them either by the lawe of Nations or by the Ciuill or by Christ in the new Testament But it is giuen them by neither of these three Ergo they haue none giuen them To the maior I aunswere it is false Bycause he leaueth oute the olde Testament whiche he confessed hym selfe before was a figure of the pastorship of the new Testament here he leaues out the old Testament quite Which had he named as he ought to haue done he should both haue séene Princes to haue bene ordeyned immediately of God as Moyses Iosue all the Iudges Saule Dauid and Salomon and not by the meane of the lawe of Nations nor the lawe Ciuill comming betweene And he should haue â—…ounde that the Prince of Gods people is appoynted namely to be a pastor or shepheard vnto them Num. 27. Moses spake to the Lorde saying Let the Lorde God of the spirite of all fleshe appoynt a man ouer the congregation who maye go oute and in before them and leade them out and in that the congregation of the Lorde be not as sheepe without a Pastor 2. Reg. 5. All the Tribes of Israell came to Dauid vnto Hebron and sayde thus Beholde we are thy bones and thy fleshe and in times past when Saule was our king thou leddest Israell in and out and the Lorde hath sayde vnto thee thou shalt feed my people Israel In which words Dauid was made their pastor or shepherd which was reseÌ„bled before in his kéeping of natural shéepe as he confesseth of him self He chose Dauid also his seruant and toke him away froÌ„ the sheepe foldes as he was following the Ewes great with yong ones he tooke him that he might leade Iacob his people Israel his inheritance So he fed theÌ„ with a faythfull and true heart and ruled theÌ„ prudently with al his power Which worde of féeding belonging to a pastor God ascribeth also to al the Iudges saying â–ª VVhen I commaunded the Iudges to feede my people And in 1. Chro. 11. And the Lorde sayde vnto thee thou shalt feede my people of Israell and be the prince c. And in the. 3. booke of the Kings wheÌ„ Micheas described in his vision the kings destruction he sayth I saw Israel dispersed on the mountaynes as sheepe without a pastor and the Lorde sayde these haue no master c. By these and many other places it appeareth that God appoynted the Prince to be a pastor in his office but his office as is proued at large before stretchetâ—… to the setting â—…oorthe the lawe of God and gouernement of the priests so well as the laytie therefore his pastorshippe stretcheth so farre also although not to the taking vpon him the office of the spirituall pastor Secondly I aunswere to the minor it is false For not only by the lawe of Nations and Ciuill a politike pastorshippe is committed to the Prince but also a Christian pastorshippe to a christian Prince euen in the newe Testament also Which as it is comprehended in these sentences that M. Saunders here sets down so are there more sentences that declare the Princes pastorship But sayth he none of these do bidde the king by name to dispose of the Church of Christ or in causes of fayth arrogate ought to him selfe This is a wrong conclusion M. Saunders from iudgement pastorship to inferre disposing arrogating As for arrogating neither the Prince nor the Priest ought to do it nor the Prince attemptes it althoughe the Priestes haue and do attempte it Likewyse for disposing if you meane
naughtinesse of the argument We graunt that to iudge aright of Ecclesiasticall matters is a great gift of God but that the iudgemeÌ„t of ecclesiasticall matters is onelie to be restrained to binding and losing as you here define what you meane by iudging in matters of faith this is a manifest falsehood True it is that binding and losing can not rightly be withoute iudgement nor withoute right iudgement and therefore your Pope and you doe erre so often herein both binding that that should be losed and losing that that should be bound errante claue as ye terme it your key erring and erring also not onely in things to be bounde or losed but in the power it selfe of binding losing too Yet notwithstanding binding and losing and the iudgement requisite in binding and losing are two distinct and seueral things and iudgement reacheth furder to other things also euen in the Priest himselfe besides the Princes iudgement And therefore as this definition of iudgement in matters of faith is preposterously brought in for ye oughte before to haue defined what ye ment by iudgemente so is it false for other matters of faithe require iudgement besides binding and losing Now where you say this power commeth not of the principles of our corrupt nature but of the free mercie of God you say truth But that ye adde the mercie of God is made manifest vnder the time of the newe testament partlye by the law written partly not written is spoken ambiguously For that Princes iudged in matters of faith was also made manifest in the olde Testament but that Princes haue power to binde and lose we graunt is neither manifest nor couert neither in the olde or newe As for the newe lawe to be deuided into written and not written is another error and impertinent to this question Your vnwritten lawe of the new Testament we stand not vpon But to affirme that by neither way written or vnwritten no power is giuen to kings in Ecclesiasticall matters that we denie and your self haue rather confuted it thaÌ„ hither to confirmed it But to confirme it ye bring out this reason Neither were thene at the beginning any Christian Kings to whom Christ shoulde haue committed any power nor the Apostles gaue any rule according where vnto the kings should iudge of Ecclesiasticall causes That there were no Christian kings then is not materiall For by this rule they should be no defenders of the faith neither bicause Princes were not theÌ„ defenders of it But that the Apostles gaue no rule whereby they should iudge is false For whosoeuer should iudge shuld iudge by gods word and this rule Christ and his Apostles gaue in generall But that Princes mighte iudge is both proued from the olde Testament and by the text that M. Saunders himselfe citeth out of the new yea by that he saith immediatly For if any man say kings are appointed iudges in a cause of the faith only bicause by Baptisme they are made spiritual meÌ„ who iudge all things and the spirites do trie those things that are of God this in dede I graunt to be true in the kynde and maner of the priuate but not of the publique iudgement For it is another thing when thou art a member of the Catholike Church nor preferrest thy selfe before thy pastours what is necessarie for thee priuately to Iudge and this the vnction teacheth and another thing to take vpon thee power to teache others and to prescribe to thy Pastors what they ought to do or teache when thou art not called to the publique ministerie of the Church as Aaron was We know there is a difference betwéen priuate and publique Iudgement But that this place of S. Paule The spirituall man Iudgeth all things is only to be vnderstoode of prinate Iudgement is but the priuate iudgement of M. Saunders But it is well that he graunteth priuate iudgement to euery Christian man Neither is it any reason then it shuld be debarred irom any Christian Princes neither is it anye reason that the Prince although in his priuate Iudgement â–ª rightly iudging a matter of faithe to be true shoulde not approue set forth the same publiquely by his princely authoritie And so his priuate Iudgement directs his publique Iudgement For a Prince is not only a priuate man but a publique man also not that he may doe all things of his owne priuate or publique Iudgement nor take vpon him the publique ministerie of the pastour in teaching being not called as Aaron was for this is not ascribed to the Prince bicause he giueth a publique Iudgement in respect he is a publique person but his Iudgement is a publique approbation and establishing of that that is alreadie by others Iudgement â–ª iudged to whome the discussing appertaineth In which discussing althoughe the godly learned clergie being called as Aaron was haue the greatest skill and charge of Iudgement yet the lay men suche as are also learned and godly haue a publique Iudgement too Or else why saith Panormitane we shoulde more beleue a lay man alleaging scripture than the whole councell besides but nowe the truth being once founde out by these learned Iudgements the Princes publique Iudgement as it called them together as it gaue them their charge so it prescribeth what the pastors ought to doe and teache therin without any preiudice to the spirituall pastors Iudgement in the function of his doing and teaching Now hauing thus set downe his owne assertions he will enter on the other part to confute our obiections And first he alleageth this reason of the protestantes In all the olde Testamente we sée gouernors and Kings both to haue prescribed to the priests what they ought to doe in ecclesiasticall matters and also to haue remoued them froÌ„ the ministerie that haue negligently done their dutie To this obiecton M. Saunders answere is this that this reason holdes not from the olde Testament to the new If this came so to passe in the olde Testament saith he yet no reason shuld compell that the same shuld be so in the new Testament sith the reason of the eccl. gouernment is changed And are you changed too M. Saunders that saide before after say make all your booke of it that the ecclesiastical kind of gouernment hath bene alwayes one and that is a viâ—…ble Monarchie euen from Adam to Pope Pius â–ª 5. and said that if the gouernement be changed the Churche must needes be changed tâ—…o and made the gouernement of the olde Testament to be a figure of the new But now that you are beaten with your owne arguments you say they hold not by reason the ecclesiasticall gouernment is changed But I see Maister SauÌ„ders you woulde deale with vs as the riche man dealt with his poore neighbor When the poore maÌ„ complained saying I beseeche your worship be good vnto me for my Cowe hath goared your Bull. What hath he quoth the riche maÌ„
I tell thée plaine thou shalt pay for him then I cry you mercy sir quoth the poore maÌ„ I should haue said your bull hath goared my cowe tushe quoth the rich maÌ„ the case is altered that it is another matter And so I perceiue M. SauÌ„ders it is with you when the Priest is said to haue any authoritie in the olde Testament marke that say you that maketh for vs and why so bicause the olde Testament is a figure of the new the gouernement ye marke it was for the priest but the gouernment must not alter the states must be a like and all this geare But now sir it is proued the kings gouernement was aboue the priests Is it so say you that is another maner of matter tush theÌ„ the case is altered If this came to passe in the olde Testament yet no reason shoulde compell that the same should be so in the new Testament fith the reason of the ecclesiasticall gouernement is changed But as the prouerbe sayth the case is altered but the matter is where it was What a mockerie is this in so waightie and plaine a matter But let vs heare your reasons Maister Saunders Nor without cause say you for the Synagog of the Iewes although it coÌ„tained in it som true Israelits iust meÌ„ yet both it was was called a earthly rather thaÌ„ a heueÌ„ly kingdoÌ„e in so much that Augustine doubteth whether in the olde Testament the kingdome of heauen be euer named or no much lesse that it is promised for rewarde For those things that were done did signifie in dede diuine things and so the lawe it selfe was also spirituall but the things themselues were not in themselues so diuine as our things are in so much that the Apostle teacheth that the glorie of the Synagoge was no glory at all in respect of the excellente glorye of that Ministerie whiche nowe is exercised in the Church by the Ministers of the newe Testament not in the letter but in the spirite Therfore sith the people of God consisteth of a bodie and a soule or spirite the carnall part obtained the principalitie in the olde people and was ordained to signifie spirituall things VVhervpoÌ„ as mount Synai the kindled fire the whirlewind the darknesse the storme and sounde of the trumpet and voyce of the words was onely of the earth and carnall so nowe all things are spirituall and internall There raigned the seruile feare of God and the bodily sworde but here is moste deare loue and the spirituall sworde they abuse therfore the holy Scriptures that for those things that were done of the Kings in the olde Testamente thinke now also that the kingdome of heauen which is the Church should be subiect to earthly kings This answere why the gouernement is changed is a depressing of their estate in comparisoÌ„ of ours that theirs was more earthly ours more spirituall which as in part we denie not yet repute not theirs so grossely as here he makes it yet is this comparison plainely wrested to inferre alteration of gouernement thervpon from the Princes ouer the Priests then to the Priests ouer the Princes nowe For this alteration maketh the olde not to prefigure the newe but to destroy it as no comparison but a cleane contrarietie But the true comparison being such as the one estate prefigured the other the excellencie is in the difference of this aboue that retaining still the same estate of gouernment so that if those godly Princes did so well order their gouernement in those causes that in comparison were but earthly and not so deuine as ours then muche more shoulde our Christian Princes order their gouernment better in much more excellent ecclesiasticall matters And thus both the figure and the comparison holdeth But M. Saunders turneth all as though the King and the Prieste were compared togither that the kings gouernement was but earthly then and the priestes gouernement now is spiritual Wheras the coÌ„parison is of the things gouerned and not of the gouernors And yet to compare those with these gouernors those earthly Princes were not so litle spirituall then but these spirituall Priestes are ten times more earthly grosse and carnall nowe What S. Augustine douteth I remember not but we without doubting know now that the kingdome of heauen was promised then to them so well as nowe to vs and they without doubting hoped for it and vndoubtedly did receiue it and do enioy it The comparison of glorie that Saint Paule maketh that theirs was nothing to ours is true But he speaketh not thereof comparing visible glories the one with the other such as the ministerie of the Popishe Church settes for the it selfe withall For in such outwarde glorie the olde Lawe passed the new the Pharisies passed Christe the Heatheus passed the Christians both in the Apostles time and long while after till the glorious ministerie of the Pope hath far excelled them all The examples of the glorie and terror in Mount Synai of the seruile feare of the bodily sword are iumbled togither disorderly and are compared to spirituall resemblances or contraries in the Gospell But as they take not away the Christian Magistrates bodily sword nor glorie so meddle they not with alteration of Princes gouernement ouer Ministers in causes ecclesiasticall therefore are méere impertinent But if all these shiftes will not serue then saith M. Saunders sée the inconueniences Othervvise if the state of the olde kings shall be drawne to the time of the newe Testament shall not the state of the Byshops of the Leuiticall tribe by the same reason be drawne to our time also lette there be therefore one tribe appointed to the outwarde Priesthoode let there be one Temple in the world let there be but one Byshop and let bloud sacrifices be restored But if thou confesâ—…est these things are made voyde wherefore grauntest thou not also that those things are voide that kings haue done about diuine matters â–ª are only the doings of kings eternal nor could they be changed so farre as pertained to the disposing of holy things What could or what could not be done M. Saunders we stande not vpon but what is or what is not done is the question And that the state of the ciuill gouernement is not altered your selâ—… haue often graunted that the gouernment still was one that the one was a figure of the other that Christe toke not away nor diminished the Princes authoritie As for the Leuiticall Law of the Priests the scripture is plaine in many places that it is cleane dissolued you cannot therefore make these alike except you wil become a iewe And so it seemeth by this your wicked reason you had rather renounce the Priesthoode sacrifice of Christe bring in againe the priesthoode sacrifice of the olde law than you woulde giue Princes authoritie ouer Priestes in the newe lawe But now that M. Sanders hath thus answered the
accorde appeale and come to them as before whome to pleade sithe they haue them selues a better power giuen them heereto of God. Thus by the iudgement of your owne side this place serueth nothing for refusing the obedience of Princes although they were Infidels Apostataes or Heretikes as thankes be giuen to God the protestant Princes are not agaynst whome ye shoote these trayterous bookes but are true christians faithful christian Princes As for the other sentence maketh lesse to your purpose â–ª For he speaketh not there of princes but of false teachers â–ª as for princes by S. Paules doctrine â–ª aforesayde wiâ—… whome S. Iohn agréeth they should bothe be saluted worshipped and prayed for that God would spéede and prâ—… per them in their gouernementes And this as ye say iâ—… more then to salute them But sithe we are bounde to 〈◊〉 the greater to vse your owne reason muche lesse may 〈◊〉 debarre the lesser from them and not so muche as say 〈◊〉 speeds them or giue them â—…nce God morrowe Which as â–ª is besides all ciuilitie that you say Christ taketh not awaâ—… so were it wilfully to prouoke the Princes indignation â–ª Abimelech was but an Heathen prince and yet Abraâ—… dwelte with him made a league with him and gaue him a present and toke a present of him Pharao was an heathen Prince and yet Ioseph behaued himselfe most reuerently vnto him and became a moste faithfull stewarde ouer his countrey Ahasuerus was a heathen Prince and yet both Mardocheus honored him and preserued his life from traiters and Hester was maried vnto him Benadad the king of Syria was an heathen Prince and yet Naaman his captaine after he was clensed from his leprie and was become a faithfull beleuer in God forsoke not his obedience to his heatheÌ„ Prince and where he moued a scruple of suffring his Idolatrous Prince to leane vpoÌ„ him the Prophet had him depart in peace he had him not reuolt froÌ„ his Princes obedience Darius was an heathen Prince yet Daniel sayde vnto him O king God saue thy life for euer Agrippa was an heathen Prince and yet S. Paule both saluted him and wished him euen as himselfe except his bondes This therfore is not to be stretched vnto Princes but to be takeÌ„ as it is spoken against false teachers as both the text is plaine euen the Popish writers to so vnderstand it althoughe they misvnderstand who the false teachers be But who they be S. Ihon describeth by this note Euery one that goeth from abideth not in the doctrin of Christ hath not god He that abideth in the doctrine he hath the father and the sonne if any come vnto you bring not this doctrine receiue him not into the house neither say God spede vnto him For â—…e that saith God spede communicateth with his euill workes But this is apparant that the Papists haue made the doctrine of Christ insufficient and brought in other doctrine besides the scripture of God they therfore are these false teachers that S. Iohn so straightly forbiddeth vs to communicate withall If then God spede may not be saide vnto the false teachers that is to say we may not approue their doctrine nor be familiar with them theÌ„ must the Popish teachers companie be auoided that are here so plain described And it were to be wished â–ª this were some what more straightly loked vnto thaÌ„ it is â–ª God graunt that bearing to much with Papists bearing theÌ„ company yea and bearing theÌ„ out also do not only spice vs with their false doctrin he that toucheth pitch saith the wise maÌ„ shal be defiled with it make vs partakers of their euill workes but also prouoke the heauie wrath of God vpon vs make the Papists whom we beare so much withall become the very cutters of our throates For I tell you their faith will serue them they haue a ruled case for it Nulla sides teneÌ„da haereticis no faith must be kept with heretiks as they accouÌ„t vs to be But I learned once this rule in mine Accidence â—…oelix quem faciunt aliena pericula cautuÌ„ Happie is he whoÌ„ other mens harms do make to beware Let vs not thinke but they can loke as faire thinke as foule in England as in Fraunce deale as horribly if as God forbid they could get their oportunitie Which to compasse the sooner this good teacher M. Saunders setteth forth this doctrine to sturre the people to rebel depose their soueraigne hereto wresteth these places of the scripture to make them seme to serue his purpose where both being better considered make cleane against it Howbeit thinking he hath fully proued it The matter saith he is nowe brought to this point that an hereticall king must be remoued from his kingdome that he obteyneth ouer Christians But how he hath brought the matter to this point with what proues not worth a point I doubt not but euery reader wil easilie sée nor any subiect be moued to remoue his naturall Prince for any thing yet alleaged yea although as he surmiseth his Prince were in déede an heretike But M. Saund. presupposing that he hath cléerely proued the Prince must nedes be deposed will now proue that the deposing of him belongeth to the Bishop And bicause saith he the crime for the which he must be remoued is coÌ„mitted against the faith a little before it is abundantly proued that those causes shuld not be iudged of the people which is gouerned like sheepe but of the pastors whose dutie is to discerne betwen the cleane vncleane and whose lippes do therfore kepe knowledge that the people should require the lawe of the Lorde out of their mouth verily it belongeth chiefely to the Bishops both to pronounce euen the king himself an heretike or otherwise an Apostata also to declare that his subiects froÌ„ thence forth are free froÌ„ giuing all obedience vnto him that they ought to endeuor themselues that another out of hand be chosen in his roome Like lippes like lettyse they say Euen a fit sentence for so fit Bishops to pronounce Finde you me this in the law of the Lord M. Saunders that the priests should kepe this know ledge and yet better kepe it than vtter it to make the Proclamation of rebellion Is this the law the people must fetch from the priests mouth well this lawe made some of them be hanged at Durham not long ago as all such lawlesse and rebell Priests deserue No M. Saunders ye finde not this fraiteroâ—…s office appointed to the Priests in gods lawe Out of their mouth in deede the law of God must procéede their lippes must kepe it they must discerne betwene the cleane and vncleane Although this be but here spokeÌ„ Metaphorically for that was a bodily cleanneste vncleannesse discerning who was a Leper who was none But stretch it hardily to the
M. sand And now as though he had brought an inuincible proofe he procéedeth saying But if he must needs be deposed at least for heresie hovv shall that controuersie be iudged without the knowledge of the doctors of the Church who only of their office haue the ordinarie lawful power to loke to the flocke in the whiche the holy Ghost hath placed theÌ„ to guide the Church of God. But the pastors doctors of the church could not be Iudges of any king except the king in that thing were lesse inferior to theÌ„ For neither the equal hath power ouer the equal neither the inferior ouer the superior VVorthily therfore we affirme that al christiaÌ„ kings in those things that appertaine to matters of faith are so vnder bishops priests â–ª that when offending obstinately against the christiaÌ„ religion â–ª they shall perseuer after one two rebukings bothe they maye and they ought for that cause to be by the Byshops sentence deposed from the gouernement that they holde ouer the Christians You conclude ful worthily M. San. your argument is this if the Prince must needes be deposed he must be deposed by the Bishops priestes This reason hangeth all on this presupposall that he hath so fully proued this that the Prince nowe in all post hast must nedes be deposed â–ª And yet we haue hitherto heard no such proues that should enforce any suche necessitie but rather necessarie for the bishops priests or any other subiects behalfe to let him remaine still vndeposed for them although he were an heretike So that we may rather reuerse the argument If nedes he must not be deposed the must not the bishops priests attempt to depose him Howbeit ther is no necessitie in the coÌ„sequence that if he must nedes be deposed that for heresie that the bishops priests must depose hi. Yes saith M. SaÌ„ for how shal that coÌ„trouersie be iudged without theÌ„ what thogh that coÌ„trouersie could not be iudged without theÌ„ M. sand must they therefore be deposers of him froÌ„ his estate bicause they iudge of the doctrine he professeth must they iudge of his Diademe bicause they iudge of his religioÌ„ but what if they theÌ„selues haue corrupt iudgements therein trow you priests bishops haue not had so ere now yes eueÌ„ this sentence of s. Paule that here you cite for the Bishops and Priestes authoritie giueth a plaine warning of it I knowe saithe he that after my departure shall come among you rauening VVolues not sparing the flocke there shall rise vp men from among your selues speaking peruerse thinges to dravve Disciples after them But say you saint Paule saith they must looke to the flocke so much the more in vvhiche the holy ghost hath placed them to guide the church of God. True in déed they must so do But what if they be blind theÌ„selues how loke they to it then And did Christ neuer talke of blind guides you post off that to the Phariseis Iewish Bishops But if you were not more blind thaÌ„ they you would sée a great difference betwéene loking to the flocke guiding the Church of God by teaching true doctrine taking heede vnto and discerning of false doctrines and teachers preching the worde of God with learned iudgement and betwéene the clayming of authoritie to depose Kings and Princes froÌ„ their royal estates Whie say you if they be Iudges they are aboue them and neither equall nor inferior They may be equal and aboue them too in learned Iudgement and also in the dispensation of their misteries yet in publike authoritie far inferior And therfore your conclusion A secuÌ„dum quid ad simpliciter faileth that bicause they are inferior in one thing to Bishops they be in al thinges or in this thing inferior Yea say you they are so vnder Bishops and Priestes that when offending obstinately againste the Christian religion they shall perfeuer after one or two rebukings the Bishoppes may and ought to depose them from their gouernment ouer Christians This is a great inferiorship M. sand to be so much vnder them For by this rule if a Prince as coÌ„monly Popishe Princes doe shoulde kepe a Paramour â–ª a Popishe Byshop may depose him But they wil not be ouer hastie to reproue the Prince for that which they vse themselues neither couÌ„t they it an offence against christiaÌ„ religion yet in the christiaÌ„ religion iâ—… is forbidden so is against it especially to defend it mainteing it as the Papistes do But if he do wrong to any of his subiectes wil not amende his wrong after a B. hath once or twise giueÌ„ him warning of it then by this rule the B. maye straighte depose him And in déede so they haue done would do if the wrong touch them if their lands and goods were diminished then by by it is against the ChristiaÌ„ religion it is plaine heresie except by the seconde admonition it be restored with a recumbentibus the king must be in al the hast deposed there is no remedie nor further respit for not only the Bishops may but plat plaine they ought to doe it Is not here a kingdome brought to a goodly state But he wil say he meaneth by offences against the Christian religion matters of faith But what helpeth this for as wheÌ„ the Lion proclaimed that al horned beasts shuld auoyd out of the wood although the Foxes pricked eares were no horns neyther néeded he haue gone ye he wisely foresaw that this was but a drifte to picke a quarel therefore he hied him out of the wood For since al lay in the Lions interpretatioÌ„ what if the Lion had said his prick eares had bin horns or as sharp as hornes surely then the Fox had dronke for it And if the Byshops may haue the like authoritie to bid the Prince be packing out of his realme if he offend the christian religion what will it boote the Prince if the Bishops be disposed to picke a quarel against him to saye he offendeth not againste the Christian religion but rather defendeth the true religion of Christ against the corruptions of it and in déede so he doth but what auayleth eyther his excuse or the truth of the matter if the Bishops shall say it is heresie and against the christian faith the Bishops that so say shal be the Iudges whether it be so or no were not the king as good get him out of his kingdome at the first or else they will depose him set him out with a heaue ho But that Bishops may thus hamper Princes as they list where find we authoritie or example in the scripture yes saith M. Saunders For God which at the firste so seuered the heauenly kingdome from the earthly kingdome that he suffered the kings of the earth to come togither against the Lorde and againste his anoynted and thereby notably declared his power while by the
intreaties rather thaÌ„ with terrors The condition pleaseth a publike calling forth of the people is made by the Kings coÌ„maundement to whom the King maketh an oratioÌ„ persuadeth the people to receiue the faith of Christ moueth them to submit their neckes to Christ the priest reioyceth that the King not yet baptized is becoÌ„e an Apostle of his owne natioÌ„ so the King is baptised What condition is here made by the Bishoppe vnto the King of giuing ouer his realme deposing himselfe which might haue done more hart thaÌ„ good In what couâ—…nant did the people here binde themselues to looâ—…e the libertiâ—… of chosing their King or promise to forsake their King if their King forsake the faith here was no such bondage â—…red â—…ther to the King by the Bishop and the King thought good to offer none such to the people but with gentle persuasions to allâ—…re them So that these presupposals of these Bishops speaches vnto these Princes are vtterly false and forged onely to driue in the readers heads a surmise of seme suche conditionall admission to the Christian faith in these elde Princes dayes whiche was nothing so nor so And yet by these colourable presupposals he enforceth his matter with a question aying Can the Bishop to this man thus affected minister the sacrament of Baptisme and giue the sacrament of thanksgiuing Why M. SauÌ„ders here was no such condition moued yet Remigius gaue Clodoneus the sacrament of Baptisme â–ª In deede the sacrament of that kâ—…giuing he gaue not then vnto hym neyther was it necessarie till he were instructed in the mysterie of it And therefore this is as fondly added in this case to the Sacrament of Baptisme as your case of Baptisme is craftily and malicioâ—…sly deuised to bring Princes in bondage vnto Bishoppes But this King thoughe he and his people submitted their neckes to Christe yet did he not thus submit himselfe and his people to the Bishoppe The long promiseth to 〈◊〉 one God but not to 〈◊〉 eyther the Bishop of Remes or the Bishop of Rome â–ª These knackes and conditions of bondage for Princes to promise and â—…weare obedience to the Pope and to his Bishops yea to sweare to depose themselues and become pâ—…uate men if they forscke this consâ—…rained obedience is of later times as the Popes power and tirannie hath growne and hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to Christian Princes great huâ—…lie but lâ—…s in manye Christian kingdomes But yet it neuer went thus for as it now should do â–ª if M. Saunders might haue hie minde for it was neuer vrged in their Christâ—…dome before This pasieth the slauerie of the Spanish InquisitioÌ„ that no Prince nor people shuld be christened except they swere to these exceptioÌ„s In the olde time when the Prophetes anoynted kinges they tolde them of the blessings of God to come vpon them and their posteritie to sitte in their seate after them and that God woulde buylde them an house to continue if they serued him and walked faythfully in his wayes And if they should do the contrarie howe God woulde rende the kingdome from them and giue it to another Of suche promises and threates that the Prophetes tolde the kinges we reade and of the promises that the kinges made agayne to God we reade but that any Prophet compounded with the king before that he shoulde renounce his kingdome or that any king tooke either their circumcision or their kingdome on suche condition or that the king reuolting from his promise either voluntarily or by compulsion deposed him selfe or was deposed of the Bishop Priest or Prophet of God these thinges yâ—… can not shewe vs but these thinges ye shoulde shewe vs if ye will make good your sayings and directly proue your purpose You tell vs heere a tale of a tubbe in the name of these kinges Bishops that they neuer dyd nor I thinke dyd euer thinke of any such deuises But go too let vs nowe presuppose with M. Saunders euen as he imagineth A King would be baptised The Bishop sayth VVe are glad most deare sonne that thou desirest to be made a citizen of the kingdome of heauen but this thou oughtest to knowe for certayntie that the case is not like in the kingdome of heauen as it is in the worlde for in the Churche thou muste liue so that thou make captine thy vnderstanding to the obedience of fayth But thou how greater thou art in the worlde mayest so muche the more hurte the Churche of God if thou shalte abuse the righte of thy sworde to the defence of heretikes contrarie to the Catholike fayth No otherwise therefore thou mayest haue entrie into the Churche than if thou shalt promise that thou wilte persist in that fayth and defende that Churche with all thy force which beeing receiued from the Apostles is continued by the successioÌ„ of Bishops vntil this day dispersed through out all the world But if it shall chaunce thou doest otherwise thou shalt not refuse but shalte go from the right of thy kingdome and promise to leade a priuate life M. Saunders nowe presupposeth that the king hearing the Bishop thus beginne to indent with him will beginne his answere to the Bishop thus I am ready to acknowledge the Christian fayth Why M. sand is not this inough if the Bishop séeke something else besides the acknowledging of the Christian fayth Surely he neither séeketh the glory of God nor the Princes saluation nor the encrease of Christendome but his owne sucre authoritie Well the Bishop will haue him graunt to all the residue of his conditions or else he will not baptise him Heere agayne he presupposeth the king to say further But I neither promise that I will with my sworde defende the Catholike fayth neither will I for whatsoeuer I shall do giue ouer the right of my kingdome Ye tel the kings tale parcially M. San â–ª you should make it flatly to denie that whiche the Bishop exacted of him to do Which was to promise to defend not the faith but that faith that Church c. Which the king denieth to make promise vnto the Bishop on suche condition Yea saith M. sand saucely steppeth in for the B. can the B. to this man thus affected minister the sacrament of baptisme c. And why not M. San. if the bishop be not worse affected him selfe than this man is for you graunt your selfe that he is wel affected towards the christiaÌ„ faith would acknowledge it which is al one with defending it And if the bishop be not content with this promise hath not the king good cause to suspect him he telleth him of bondes conditions to be made to renounce the right of his kingdome if he perâ—…e not in that faith with al his force if he defeÌ„d not that church that was receiued from the Apostles continued by successioÌ„ of B. till this day and iâ—… dispersed throughout all the world May not here the king
the sonnes of strangers shall build vp thy walles Kings shall serue thee And to this he addeth the other sentence in the same Chap. And the sonnes of them that afflicted thee shall come to thee humbly and shall bowe themselues euen to the plantes of thy feete eueÌ„ all they that dispised thee and call thee the citie of the Lorde Sion of the holy Israell Had you set the sentence downe thus farre you had marred al Maister Saunders â–ª For then you had bewrayed your wresting of this vnto the Bishops And had you set downe all the chapter you had shewed suche inconueniences in vnderstanding this glory of the Church and seruice of Princes in the literall sense and after a worldly fashion that you must néedes haue confessed all these things to haue other spirituall meanings Which the Iewes not marking in these and such like prophecies of the kingdome of the Messias and the glory of Sion but taking the same in the bare sense of the words as you doe were so sotted on a worldly glory kingdome that they quite dispised the pouertie of Christ and to this day dispise it looking for a Messias that as they sansie shall raigne in al worldly pompe and subdue all kingdomes and people to him and therefore they scrape vp money so fast to helpe him And so you Papists in these prophecies of the kingdom of Christ and the glory of his Church haue as grosse vnderstanding as the Iewes and dispising the simplicitie of the Gospell nor beholdyng the spirituall ornamentes of the spouse of Christ thinke the worship of God lyeth in suche outwarde glory And hearing of obedience seruice of Kings to Christ and to his Church thinke it consistes in this that Kings muste sweare to you to renounce their kingdomes and holde them of the Pope and be obedient to him and he his Prelats must florishe in all worldly pompe and ryches Is not this the Iewes error vp and downe howbeit in oppressing of Kings you are worse than the Iewes and in seâ—…ing 〈◊〉 honor here verie CerinthiaÌ„s and shall neuer haue it else where excepte you forsake your errors Your third sentence Luk. 10. he that dispiseth you dispiseth me as it maketh nothing for you being nothing suche as those were whoÌ„ Christ did sende so being vnderstood of those that are in deede sent of Christe is nothing to this purpose We graunt that no godly ministers ought to be dispised And if they be Christ their sender is dispised But as they ought not in their calling to be dispised of the Prince so no more ought the Prince to be dispised of them much lesse to be troden vnder their féete and their kingdomes to be taken from them as your Popes haue vsed them and you woulde haue theÌ„ here be spoiled Wherby it appéereth that you are not such as Christ doth sende but are of Sathans sending to bréede contempts seditioÌ„s treasons against Princes to maintain your pride and carnall pleasures of whome Saint Iude did prophecie that defiling your fleshe you despise authoritie râ—…yle on the Maiestie of your Soueraignes Your fourth sentence Mat. 16. of Christ saying to Peter Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke will I build my Churche and the gates of hell shall not preuaile againste it is altogether besides the matter It is your chiefe place wrested for your Popes vsurpatioÌ„ but I sée not how it is brought in here against the Princes authoritie except you will make a kings estate to be the gates of hell But as the Princes estate is the ordinaunce of God so I rather thinke the attempte to depose the Prince to be if not the gates of hell â–ª yet one of the readiest wayes to hell as we haue example of Core Dathan and Abiron that went not by the gate nor by the posterne but were swallowed vp and toombled in quicke to hell And although the rebellious Papists go not downe that wayes yet shall they be sure to come to hell and I thinke rebellion be one of the broadest gates that hell hath for Papists on a plompe to enter Nowe that M. Samders hath as he thinketh with thesâ—… texts confirmed the Bishops refusall of Baptising the king he will admitte the Bishop will Baptise him and see what inconuenience shall ensue For saith he if the Bishop will baptise him whom he heareth by name saying that he will not submit his Diademe to Christ or that is all one he not will make his kingdom subiect to the ministers of Christ euen in the cause of faith where is that obedience of faith which the Apostles were sent to procure in all nations is it meete that he which denounceth that he will not want his empire for no fault at all should notwithstanding be armed with the name of a Christian and with the sacramentes of Christ to lay the greater ambushments against his Church for who doubteth that there is greater daunger of the domesticall than of the foraigne enemie Surely M. Saunders I am of your opinioÌ„ in this last senteÌ„ce Out of doubt there is greater dauÌ„ger of the domesticall than of the foraigne enimie We sée the apparaÌ„t experience in your Pope that is so much the more perilous enimie to the ChristiaÌ„ faith as he preteÌ„deth to be the Uicar of Christ the seruant of the seruaÌ„ts of God a father of fathers in Christes Church for so his name Papa signifieth is in dede a robber of Christs glory a hider of Christs Gospell a setter vp of his owne decrees a spoyler of all kings and kingdomes a begniler of the people vnder a shew of holinesse an Angel of darknesse shyning like an Angell of light a rauening wolfe in a shéepes clothing a child of perdition himself and pretending to saue other from perdition the man of sin calling himself a god There is greater dauÌ„ger of such a puppet of the deuill thus disguised like a God than is of the heathen thaÌ„ is of the Iewes than is of Mahomet than is of the greate Turke than is of the Deuill hymselfe And the like greater daunger is of all dissemblyng Papistes in the Courtes and Realmes of protestant Princes than is of open Papists apparant enemies I beseech God they may be loked vnto remoued froÌ„ such places that there may be lesse danger of theÌ„ As for this Prince and Byshop that M. Saunders maketh his presupposals vpon there is farre greater daunger to the Church of God in this Byshop than in this Prince For first the Prince not of compulsion but of his owne voluntarie not of crafte or malice or any other sinister affection but of good hearte and méere deuotion for so king Lucius and Clodoueus did commeth to the Byshop to be baptized and humbly offereth to acknowledge the faithe of Christe What danger is here towarde the Church of Christ by this good Princes offer or not rather gret benefite to the Church
of Christe to haue so mightie a Realme as Englande or Fraunce to become Christian by this offer why is not this offer taken for sooth the B. refuseth it Is not here a great iniurie offered to Christs Church by this B but whie doth the B. thus bycause the Prince will not promise obedience to the Prelates and to renounce his kingdome if he swarue from his obedience to them Is this a sufficient cause for want of obedience to the Prieste to defeate Chryste of his obedience Nay say you he made an exception that he vvoulde not submit his Diademe to Christ. By your leaue M. Saunders there you say not true Loke on your own presupposall once again yea on the words you made the Prince to speake whiche althoughe they were of your owne deuising for you neuer I suppose heard or read of Prince desirous to be baptized that spake on that fashion you do but tell the Princes tale to your aduantage yet finde you no such wordes in the wordes that you speake for him yea he speaketh the contrarie in offering to acknowledge the faith of Christ. But say you he would not submit his Diademe make his kingdome subiecte in the cause of faithe to the Ministers of Christ and that is all one vvyth denying to submit his Diademe to Christ. Yea Master Sanders were it admitted ye were ministers of Christ is Christ you al one the submissioÌ„ to Christ to his ministers al one Backare M. Saâ—… there is a great difference And yet Chryst requireth no submission of Diademes or subiection of kingdoms in such sort vnto him that he wold haue kings resigne them vp to him and he woulde take them no he neuer vsed that practise He might haue had such kingdomes if he had list but he refused them as your selfe before haue confessed Althoughe your Pope will haue kings resigne their kingdomes vnto him and he will take them and ruffle in greater pompe than any king vseth to doe Whiche argueth playnely that he is not Christes minister And therefore the king hardyly may refuse his vnlawfull demaunde that he woulde in the name of Christ extort as Christes officer which his master Christe both refused himselfe and forbad in his ministers And therefore the Prince dothe Chryste no iniurie bycause he will not bring his kingdome thrall to a false Prieste pretending to be Christes Minister béeing indéede the Minister of the tempter that offereth worldly kingdomes But say you hee muste make his kingdome subiecte to them in the cause of faith As though the cause of faith were hindered if the King made not his kingdome subiecte to the Priestes where as this were the reddiest way bothe to destroye the kingdome and the faith No Master Saunders the faithe of Chryste was neuer more sincere than when the Ministers of Chryst were obedient subiectes to their kings And the cause of faythe was neuer more weakened and corrupted than sithe Priestes haue wrong themselues out of their kings subiections and that the Popes haue made the Kings sweare obedience vnto them But Maister Saunders whines at this crying out vvhere is the obedience of faith that Christ sent his Apostles to procure in all the vvorlde You do well Master Saunders to aske vvhere it is for surely it is not with you nor in all your Popishe kingdome except here and there lurking and dare not shewe hir head for feare your Popishe Inquisitors woulde gette hir by the polle The obedience of fayth was frée when Priests were subiectes and since Priestes became Princes they haue taken hir captiue and exiled hir and done all that they coulde to haue killed hir But she is escaped your hands and requicouereth that libertie that the Apostles procured in all nations for hir And she doth so much the better bicause she rereth not worldly subiection of Princes but letteth Princes kéepe the estate of their kingdomes and requireth not onely obedience to hir in a more spirituall submission Whiche the more Princes yelde vnto hir they bring not their kindomes into more slauerie but into more libertie renowne and honour So that I truste shortely they will bring the Pope and his proude Prelates to their olde obedience againe Whie saye you this is to arme Princes agaynste the Church Nay Master Saunders it is rather to strengthen the Church to let Princes haue that armor that is due vnto them What say you to lette them doe vvhat they vvill and for nothing they shall doe to saye they vvill not leaue their Empire No bodie Master Saunders giueth Princes authoritie to do what they will. The authoritie that is giuen them is onely to doe good Their vvill must not be what they will but what Lawe vvill It is not with them as it is wyth your Pope Sic volo sic Iubeo stet pro ratione voluntas Thus I vvill and thus I commaunde my vvyll shall stande in steade of reason The Law is not wyth them in scrinio pectoris in the cofer of the brest as your Pope sayth it is in his I graunt there are Princes that doe thus but that is not their dutie Neither do Princes make a profession as you say that for nothing they will giue ouer their authoritie nor it is required of them nor presupposed But their duetie in their officâ—… is required and it is presupposed they will continue therein Which if they do not but breake promise shall the subiectes depose them or the Byshops depriue them by whiche rule they may quickly set vpon the Prince for any enormitie in ciuil matters too for he promised to minister iustice to al meÌ„ but he promised to none to giue vp his crowne if he did not Yea though he had made them some suche expresse promise also and brake it yet coulde no Byshop nor any other priuate person attempte to depose him for the breach thereof but commit the vengeance to god But this Prince that here is presupposed offereth inough vnto the Bishop which if he refuse not the Prince but the Byshop endamageth the Church of Christ. Nowe Master Saunders presupposing in this supposall that he hath clearely euicted the case where the Byshop by expresse wordes maketh this condition with the king he will pursue his victorie that he thinketh he hath gotten and proue that the king hath promised and is bounde euen as muche where the Byshoppe at his baptisme saithe no suche wordes vnto him But if so be saith he all men vvill confesse that no Byshop can giue baptisme vvithout great sinne to that king vvhom he seeth so proude then truely although the Byshop by negligence or forgetfulnesse shall say nothing hereof vnto the king notvvithstanding suche is the obedience that the king himselfe giueth vnto the Gospell of Christe vvhen he maketh himselfe a member of him and desireth of him to be saued that vvill hee nill hee this promise is contained in that facte that he shall minister vnto Christ and to the
life for me he can not be my Disciple much more then must he hate his kingdome and be readie to leaue his kingdome and all the good in the vvorlde for Christe or else hee is no Christian. You say true M. Sanders he must forsake and hate al for Christes sake But that he must do this for your Byshoppes sakes when they will say it is expedient he should so do that I finde not in the words of Christe and yet muste you beware howe you expounde that saying For he is bound also to loue and to kéepe to the vttermost all these thinges in their kindes not to renounce nor hate theÌ„ except they hinder him from Christ whom he must prefer before al things But this loue to Christe in principall maye stande togither with these loues wel inough Neither is he any more bounde to resigne his kingdome than to resigne his vvife into the Priestes hands Nor if he abuse his kingdome the Prieste can no more turne him out of it than he can if he abuse his goods and his vvife turne him not of his dores and take his goodes and his vvife from him and kéepe hir himself or giue hir vnto an other This can not the Byshop do although the Prince and euerie man be bounde to lose al for Christes cause Yea the Byshop is bounde hereto as well as any other And God knowes how some of them kepe this bonde and yet wil not they léese one halfpennie for Christes sake howsoeuer they breake it But the kingdome is a â—…oule moate in their eye and therefore the King poore soule must lose all and they must take it from him But now to Master Saunders other arguments Moreouer the kingdomes of faithfull Princes whose people feare God are not altogether earthly or worldlye For in that part that they haue beleued in Christ they haue as it were lefte to be of this worlde and haue begonne to be members of the eternall kingdome for although the outwarde face of things which is founde in kingdomes meere secular be in a Christian kingdome yet sith the spirite of man is farre the more excellent parte of hym and the whole spirite acknowledgeth Christ his King and onely Lorde I see nothing why Christian kingdomes ought not rather to be Iudged spirituall according to their better part than earthly And this is the cause why nowe long since those which gouerned the people of God were wont to be annoynted of his Ministers no otherwise than were the Prophetes and Priestes For euen the Kings them selues also are after a sort partakers of the spirituall Ministerie when they are annoynted not that they should do those things that are committed to the onely Priestes herevnto orderly consecrated but that those things which other Kings referre to a prophane and worldly ende these Kings should now remember that they oughte to directe to an holye ende For when they themselues are made spirituall it is fitte they should will that all their things should be counted as it were spirituall But nowe are spirituall things so vnder the Church of Christ that the Church may freely dispose and decree of them to the profite of the whole mysticall body Syth therefore the people of Israell woulde needes desire a King to be giuen them Samuel by the commaundement of God toke a cruse of oyle and powred it vpon the heade of Saule and kissed him and sayd beholde God annoynteth thee to be the Prince ouer his inheritaunce VVhich to me seemeth to signifie euen as though it had bene sayde except the Lord annoynted thee to be the Prince thou couldest not rightly and orderly be the Prince ouer hys people whiche hee hathe chosen and reserued out of all the worlde to be as it were peculiar to hymselfe For in that that is gods no man can take power to him selfe without Gods permission But God anoynted Saul to be the Prince not by himselfe but by Samuel his minister wherfore whosoeuer ruleth ouer the Christian people which is no lesse acceptable to God than was the people of the Iewes hee besides the right which he receyueth of God by the consent of the people ought also to acknowledge his power to be of Christe by his Ministers if so be that he be suche an one that worshippeth the Fayth of Christe VVherevpon to thys day all Christian kingdomes are annoynted of some Christian Bishop or some other Minister of God referring therein their principalitie not onely to the people and so vnto God but that moreouer by the Priests of Christ they referre it vnto Christ whose Ministers they are For Pope Leo wrote elegantly vnto Leo the Emperour Thou oughtest to marke stedfastly the Kingly power not onely to bee giuen to thee to the gouernement of the worlde but to be giuen thee chiefly for the succour of the Churche that in suppressing naughtie attemptes thou shouldest bothe defende those things that are well decreed and restore the true peace to those things that are troubled If Maister Saunders woulde goe plainely to woorke and make his argumentes shorte and formall and woulde rather shewe his Logike than his Rethorike the truth or falsehoode woulde appéere the sooner the reader perhappes mighte be the lesse delyghted but withoute perhappes hee shoulde be lesse beguyled and the aunswere mighte bée the clearer and the shorter â—…ll this long argument in effect is this All spirituall things are so vnder the Church of Christ that the Church may freely dispose and decree of them to the prosite of the whole mysticall body All Christian Kings and kingdomes are spirituall things Ergo all Christian Kings and Kingdomes are so vnder the Church of Christ that she maye freely dispose and decree of them to the prosite of the whole mysticall body And firste Maister Saunders trauels in the Minor. To proue Christian Kyngs and Kyngdomes spirituall that bycause the better parte of them is spirituall therefore hée seeth nothyng why they oughte not to bee rather iudged spirituall Yea Kings were woâ—…e to bee annoynted no otherwyse than Prophetes and Priestes not to doe theyr actions but to referre all theyr affayres to holy and spirituall dedes And can you sée this Maister Sanders Now how chance you coulde not seeit before when you made the Christian Princes ciuill power to be no better than the Turkes or Tartars to stretch no furder thaÌ„ to the body a quiet lyfe haue you now espied not onely the endes wherevnto they rule but the estate also itselfe by reason of the better parte to be spirituall what hath made you see so cléerely nowe forsooth now is now and then was then You were pleading then that the Christian Princes ciuill estate was so farre different and vnlike that Princes might not meddle in spirituall matters and therfore then was fitte oportunitie to denie that Christian Princes Ciuill power had any spirituall thing in it But nowe we are in another argument that Priestes maye order and dispose
that the Kyng should be obedient to the disposition of the humaine minister of Christ which is the question nowe in hande And yet whether it signifie this mysterie that you say it onely doth or no may be called into question For if it hath such a significatiō it is a very darke mysterie And me thinks it might more easilye signifie other things For oyle sometimes signifieth mercie sometimes plentie sometimes remedie against poyson sometimes it is referred to the Priesthoode sometimes to the kingdome of Christ somtimes to the mysticall members of Christ as they are Kings Priests with him so that the anoynting with oyle which espetially was vsed to Priests and Kings who therefore are called the sons of oyle is applyed to sundry significations and not onely to the incarnation and humaine nature of Christe And yet is there no suche necessitie of anoynting Christian Kings as was of the Iewishe Kings For they had commaundement so to doe and it was a ceremoniall figure of diuerse things in christ Which commaundement and ceremonies Christian Princes are not bound vnto It is cropen vp of a custome I cānot tel how to imitate the Iewes herein But as for the nature of a Kings estate he is neuer a whit the lesse King if he wante the anoynting with oyle and as the Papistes superstitiouslie doe vse it it were muche better away But the Papistes make a great matter of anoynting Kings with oyle yea sayth Maister Saunders they were wont to be annoynted no otherwise than were the Prophetes and Priestes as thoughe they shoulde be so anoynted still And true it is in one sense that they shoulde no other wise be so annoynted still that is to say neyther of them shoulde be anoynted No say you should not the Priestes be annoynted ▪ We are In deede you be Maister Saunders and all your order But the Apostles and Disciples of Christe were not and therefore your order is differing from theirs and all godly ministers should differ from yours be ye shorne or be ye anoynted But if it be true that you say kings should be no otherwise anoynted than you howe chaunce then ye are anoynted otherwise than kings as your glosse doth reason that vpon the King is powred oile but vpon the Bishop is powred Chrisme Kings are anoynted on the righte shoulder but Byshops and Priestes are annoynted vpon their heads but the heade is better than the shoulder and Chrisme is better than oyle Ergo Bishops and Priests are superior vnto Kings Were not they which anoynted their pamphlets with such greasie argumentes to perch vp their balde crownes aboue the imperiall crownes of their natural Soueraignes worthy by the Princes commaundemente to be well anoynted with vnguentum baculinum to make them acknowledge their due subiection if they rather deserue not sharper instice but let vs procéede vnto M. Saunders other arguments Let vs put the case that Christ himselfe is at this day conuersant in the earth as he was conuersant in times paste Can any man doubt but in that he is man al Christian kings ought to be vnder his gouernment both in all eccl. and in those secular causes that may promote the cause of the Chruche for he shall raigne in the house of Iacob for euer and there shal be no ende of his kingdomes If therefore earthly Kings are parte of the house of Iacob Christ shall raigne ouer them and shall subdue their Kingdomes to hys spirituall Kingdome But whatsoeuer power was necessarye vnto Christe to eternall saluation he transformed the externall and and visible ministerie thereof vnto the Apostles when he said as my father hath sent me so I send you The Apostles therefore and their successors doe no lesse rule in spiritual causes ouer Christian Kings so far as the visible Ministerie than Christ himselfe is in truth ouer them so farre as the holy power of his humaine nature VVherevpon sayth Epiphanius Christ hath giuen a kingdome to those that are placed vnder him that it should not be sayde he proceedeth from little things to greater The throne of Christ abideth and of his kingdome there is no ende and he sitteth vpon the throne of Dauid so that he hath translated the kingdome of Dauid together with the Bishoprike and hath giuen it vnto his seruaunts that is to the Bishops of the Catholike Church Beholde so well the priestly as the Kingly power is communicated to the pastors of the Churche of Christe that by that meanes Christ shoulde be declared to raigne for euer yea euen as a spirituall and heauenly man And this truelye dothe that annoynting testifie that the Kings receyue of Priests The argument is thus If Christ himselfe were conuersant in earth in his humaine nature as he hath bene he shoulde haue ouer all Christian kings all eccl. and secular power in those things that might promote the Church But Christ hath giuen to his ministers in the visible ministerie all the power necessarie to saluation ouer Christian kings that belongeth to himselfe in his humaine nature Ergo he hath giuen his Ministers in the visible ministerie all ecclesiasticall and secular power in those things that maye promote the Church First this argument standeth vpon another presupposal which as it is no lesse false than the other so is it more impossible being flat contrarie to the worte of God and to the will of christ He puttes a case that Christ woulde come againe and in his humaine nature be conuersant vpon the earth as he was from his natiuitie till his death Good Lord M. Saūders is your cause so bad and false that you are still driuen to these shiftes to put the cases of false and forged presupposals if your cause were good it woulde stand of it selfe you might go plainely to worke and neuer reason vpon suche deuised cases as you knowe and beleue shall neuer be true except you be a Millenarie indéede as you gaue before a shrewde suspition of that heresie to think Christ shall come againe and here for a thousand yeares in all worldly might and glorie raigne in the earth and then go dwell in heauen But perhaps you wil say what wil you let me to put what case I lyft when the sky falles they say we shal haue Larkes True M. Saunders we can not let you to put what case you lyst be it neuer so absurde and repugnant to the truth But is this the rediest way to boult out the truth to put the case of an euident vntruth and to imagine that to come that neuer shall be to inferre that vsurpation of your Priestes that is and ought not to be But sée howe sone your argument is ouerturned For if your case be not admitted then is all your labour loste and you haue wonne nothing for your Priestes But the Scripture is manifest that this shall neuer come to passe And that the heauens containe Christ til the day of Iudgement he is neither here
〈◊〉 the Pope taketh vpon him to pronouÌ„ce they be no Kings are no longer Kings except he will make him selfe God yea and aboue God too For althoughe God say They â—…gne not by me â–ª yet he calleth them kinges But the Pope calleth them vâ—…urpers that raygne not by him Secondly he alleageth the acknowledging of Ionathas Saules sonne the peoples gathering vnto Dauid For Io nathas it is true that he acknowledged the kingdome shold be deuolued vnto Dauid after his fathers deathe â–ª And so he saith Tu regnabis super Israel Thou shalt raigne ouer Israell I shall be next to thee and this my father knoweth But this inferreth not that he tooke Dauid then presently to be king and his faâ—…her from that day forwarde no longer to be king neither reuolted he from the obedience of his father to Dauids obedience neither could his father lay this treason to his charge that he forsooke his due subiection although most bitterly 〈◊〉 rated him and sayde Thou sonne of the wicked rebellious woman do not I knowe that thou haste chosen the sonne of Isai to thy confusion to the confusion and shame of thy mother For as long as the sonne of Isai liueth vpon the earth thou shalt not be established nor thy kingdome Whereon sayth Caietane the cause is made manyfest bicause he was an impediment to the succession of the kingdome and verily Saule had a true iudgement as the euent of the matter proued And thus the acknowledging of Ionathas proued not Dauids kingdome to be in esse as they say but in futuro not that he was King but that he should be King. Nor the confederacie betwéene Dauid and Ionathas was any conspiracie to depose Saule or to set vp Dauid but a confirming of the loue betwéene them and their houses when God should make him king Nowe for the peoples gathering vnto Dauid about the number of 400. this was not to assemble a rebellious multitude to inuade king Saule to depose him froÌ„ the crowne to set vp him selfe For neither they came for any such purpose but for their succor béeing in debt trouble or otherwise vexed neither did Dauid send for them nor incite any to take his part not proclaimed him selfe to be king or published the Lords anoynting of him or euer vsed that multitude that came vnto him for any suche purposes And yet the question is moued bothe by Caietanus and Lyranus héerevpon The question saythe Caietanus atiseth whether it were lawfull for Dauid to receiue these debters in the preiudice of the creditors that had lent them The solution is that if these men had house field or vineyard they are vnderstoode to haue lefte their goodes vnto them But if they were vtterly vnable to pay their debts they were excused for their vnhabilitie vntill their better habilitie For that Dauid excellently instructed all them that came vnto him while he â—…aried in that caue the Psalme restifieth I will prayse the Lorde at all time Conteyning according to the letter a doctrine giuen there of Dauid vnto the souldiors Therfore Dauid receiued not these men in preiudice of their creditors And thus as he did not receiue them to the preiudice of any priuate man so he receiued them not to the preiudice of the king and publike state Wheron Lyra moneth the other questioÌ„ saying In that he became their captain it seemeth he sinned in receiuing suche as Abimelech receiued the needie and vagabounds assembling theÌ„ vnto him as is contayned Iud. 9. VVe muste say that he gathered them not to slay the innocent as did Abimelech to slay his brethren neither to spoyle the faythfull For we reade not that he spoyled the people of Israell But rather kepte their goodes as is contayned afterwarde 1. Keg 25. of Naball But he gathered them to persecute the Infidels as is contayned afterwarde in many cases And to keepe his owne body from the ambushementes of Saule The which he mighte do in suche a necessitie chiefly when he was nowe anoynted king By reason whereof in suche a case he might prolong the payment of the debtes and in many the forfeyture is released in the case aforesayde Thus sée it was not for that the people tooke Dauid actually to be king but for their owne refuge that they fled to him But whatsoeuer their intent was good or ill Dauid assembled them not to hinder or hurte any priuate or publike person And althoughe he receiued them and vsed them for his defence whiche he mighte do béeing in the state he was yet woulde he neuer suffer them to enter medle in the quarell of his righte to the kingdome nor yet he him selfe woulde euer take it vpon him and impugne king Saule no not when he had him in hys daunger vntyll the Lorde by other meanes tooke Saule away and gaue the kingdome in reall possession vnto Dauid Before whiche time Dauid neuer called him selfe king nor the time of his raygne is reckoned but Saule counted and called and his raigne reckoned as king till his death and neuer shortned disturbed nor once gayne sayd by Dauid for all these folkes assemblies For example When God sent king Saule as it were of purpose euen into Dauids handes and the souldiers moued Dauid to kill him he would neither him selfe hurt him nor suffer any other to do it nor yet take him prisoner so depose him or cause him to resigne But only cut off priuily a flap of his garment for a testimonie howe he spared him yet his heart throbbed that he had done so muche agaynst him His conscience reproued him sayth Lyra in that he had done vnreuerently to Saule who was to be honored so long as he was of God suffred in the kingdome A certaine remorce of conscience sayth Caietane is described in Dauid in that he had cutoff the skirte of Saules cloake For it is the propertie of good mindes euen there to feare a fault where faulte is not found The reason of his remorce was bicause the cutting of the cloake was in his proper kinde iniurious Howbeit it was without fault both bicause it was giuen vnto him by Gods authoritie to do with Saule that whiche seemed good in Dauids owne eies and also good reason moued that Dauid mighte shewe a signe of his beneuolence towardes Saule by a most euident testimonie conuicting Saule that yet at the least Saule might leaue off from so wicked persecution But a better testimony he could not shewe than the skirte of his garment there cut off the action therfore naturally iniurious was not done in the forme of an iniurie but of a necessarie signe to witnesse the truthe of Dauids right mind to Saule â–ª And this good minde Dauid him selfe expresseth The Lorde keepe me from doing this thing vnto my Lorde the Lords anoynted to lay mine hande on him for he is the Lords anoynted And héere Caietanus giueth this note
also and the spirituall power to be greater than the earthly power and that the spirituall power may spiritually punish the resisters of it But that the ordinary spirituall power of the Priests or Prophets may depose the ordinary secular power of Kings Princes that the pastors spiritual sword may strike the secular sworde out of the Magistrates hande to whome it is of God committed that the spiritual power may of his own nature punish Princes with bodily punishment and take their state and kingdomes from them and cause their subiects to rebel agaynst them This we vtterly denie and this is the very question Now héerto is alleahed the facte of Elias sitting in the mount who prayed to God that fire might consume the wicked kings messangers that derided the Prophets and would by force haue setched him to the king To this I answere first for this king he resembleth no protestant Prince but rather the popish Princes who not onely beeing sicke as Ochozias was but also in healthe as thoughe there were no God in Israell séeke not to the onely liuing Lorde to Christ the onely sauiour and mediatour but to Idols as Ochozias did to Eeelzebub and woulde murther the Prophets of God that reproue them for it as Elias did Secondly for Elias he sat not on the toppe of the mountaine to signifie the chiefest place of the church which chiefest place he tooke not vpon him And do not your selfe ascribe the chiefest place of the Church to the highe Priest or Bishop Or was the Prophet theÌ„ aboue the chiefe Priest or intruded he into the high Priests place or were both in the chiefest place and so your Pope claymes the chiefest place of the church from both of them True it is that in his time Elias was the chiefest instrument that God vsed in the râ—…formation of the Church yet neither tooke he vpon him the chiefest place of the Churche nor exalted him selfe aboue the king nor deposed him or his father or any other prince howe wicked soeuer they were nor incited other to rebell agaynst them And this you should proue that Elias did or else ye stray from your question Thirdly for this facte of Elias I answere as before It is no ensample for vs to followe the like Neither did Elias vse it ordinarily in his defence but vpon especiall occasion God by his iustice defended thus his Prophet and reuenged the contumelie wherwith they scorned not onely him but God in destroying those wicked deriders after suche a terrible miraculous sorte Not for that they were the kings ministers but for that they assented to the kinges crueltie and besides béeing Idolaters they scorned the power of God in him in calling him in derision The man of God. For so sayth Lyra Cognouit autem c. Elias knewe by reuelation that in mockage he called him the man of God and was consenting to the king in the sinne of Idolatry and in the punishment of Elias and likewise they that were with him and that herevpon by the sentence of God they were to be punished for the which cause he pronounced the diuine sentence So that the striker héere was God Elias onely pronounced the sentence of Gods iustice Neither dyd he any thing héerein but by the especiall motion of god He woulde not come downe as master Saunders therein saythe true no not at the moste humble entreatie of the thirde Captayne tyll the Angell of GOD badde hym not feare but goe downe Wherevpon saythe Caietane Vide actiones Eliae c. See the actions of Elias are gouerned by the Angels direction in euery poynt that is to saye so well his outwarde as his inwarde motions Wherby we may sée that he did not this facte by any ordinarie iurisdiction of his Propheticall office but by the especiall direction of God whiche can not nor oughte to be drawne into example for other to do or wishe the like Fourthly this example to follow Elias héerein is of all other flatly forbidden to the Disciples of christ For when the Samaritanes would not receiue Christ into their Citie Iames and Ioâ—…n sayde Lorde wilâ—…e thou that we commaunde that fire come downe from heauen and consume them euen as Elias did But Iesus turned about aâ—…d rebuked them and sayde ye knowe not of what spirite you are For the sonne of man is not come to destroy mens liues but to saue them Nowe this example of the seuere iustice of God thus desired of them and they reproued by Christ for desiring the lyke M. Sanders resumeth for his Bishops authoritie Wherby it appeareth he knoweth not of what spirite Christian Bishops ought to be and that Popishe Bishops are of another spirite than Christ is of For Christ came not to kill Princes to fire their townes to burne their people and depose Kinges from their kingdomes to whiche drifte all this is spoken Lastly I denie this drift consequence of the example Elias prayed that fire might consume them from heauen Ergo Christian Bishops ought to take away the corporall goodes of Hereticall and Schismatical Princes If the conclusion had béene thus Ergo they mighte pray that God would take their corporal goods away it had béene a more likely and a more tollerable conclusion Howbeit this also is forbidden to pray to haue their corporal goodes taken away It were their dutie rather to pray the they might better vse them that God woulde either conuert them or otherwise at his good pleasure stoppe their tyrannie They ought not to pray for the taking away of any mans goodes much lesse their Soueraignes goods to whoÌ„ your selfâ—… confesse that they them selues are subiect â—…o farre as their goods and bodies And then be they not ouer the goodes and bodies of their Princes béeing their subiectes least of all ought they either by theÌ„selues or by any other to take their Princes goods and bodies from them For that is not a subiects but a traitors and a rebels part But saith M. Saunders they may take his bodily goods from their King so they doe it debito modo ordine after a due maner and order He told vs thus before but it is cleane beyond all good maâ—…er against al due order to take away any mannes goods chiefely the Princes yea and that the Bishops or priests to do it The example of S. Ambrose complaining that the Emperor misâ—…sed him is cleane against M. Saund that alleageth it for him For S. Ambrose tooke not the Emperors goods away nor deposed him nor caused other to rebell against him but for all the Emperors missusage of him he continued stil in his obedience to the Emperor Howbeit he told the Emperor of his dutie and so should al godly Bishops do and not attempte to depose their Princes nor to stirre vp other to depose them Let vs now put the case saith M. SauÌ„ders that some man which was a Prince was present with Elias
that 〈◊〉 both 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the literal sense you would â–ª thus â–ª must straked If the matter of Christes parable of the Cockle growing togither with the wheate I graunt that we ought to auoyde such cohabitation as may conueniently be auoyded But such cohabitatioÌ„ as cannot be auoyded without the incurring of another greater sinne must not be denyed As the husband to denie câ—…habitation with his wife though he be faithfull and she an Iâ—…fidell yet if she will tarie and dwell with him he can not put hir away for â—…ir infidelitâ—…e Nor likewise can the faithful â–ª woman forsake the man thoughe he be an Infidell neyther can the childe denie his naturall obedience to his parentes cohabitation with theÌ„ though he be faithfull and they be Infidels Neither can the faithfull seruaunt denie his ciuill obedience and cohabitation with his Maister although his maister be an Infidell as were the most in S. Paules time and yet he would haue none denie cohabitation with their maisters no thoughe they were rough and cruell besides their infidelitie And shal the subiect then denie his politike cohabitation â–ª and ciâ—…ill obedience to his liege Soueraigne and lawfull Prince for pretence of diuersitie in religion Eightly â–ª I answere if you will néedes apply this separation of the Leper to a morall or mysticall signification yet serueth it not to the deposing of the person from his Câ—…ill estate or to his exelâ—…sion from a common weale but to hys exclusion of morall vertue or to his expulsion â—…ute of the 〈◊〉 of grace from beeing a â—…ber of the mysticall comâ—… weale whiche letteth not but that he maye remayne 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nâ—…thly I answere your conclusion that you make for kingâ—… so well â—…s oâ—…h 〈◊〉 men fayleth â—…n this example of king Ozâ—…s â—…or neither was he deposed by y Priest or by any other man but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 king â–ª so long as he is of king Ozias â—…thly I answeâ—…e that al this 〈◊〉 â—…ere admitted maketh nothing against protestant Princes but it maketh much agaiÌ„st popish priests For if vnto all that bring into the Church straunge doctrine straked as it were with the spots of Lepry cohabitation must be denied Then the Pope and all your popish Priests being founde to bring into the Church other doctrine than God hath taught in his holy Scripture are to lie thrust out of Gods Churche if worse should not happen vnto you by the figure if you will go to figures of Nadab Abiu that offred straunge fire before the Lorde and were consumed with fire from heauen but beware you of a fire in hell And thus much to your figure of the Leprie for deposing Princes which if we denie you say as is your common saying we haue not our common senses But had you had your priuate senses when you made this argument you woulde haue béen better aduised ere euer you had made it common and had Printed it but you did but as other had done before for the argument before was common But what doe I reason sayth Maister Saunders Athalia the Mother of Ochozias murdered all the Kyngly seede excepte Ioas whome Iosaba had hidde in the house of the lord Moreouer Athalia raigned ouer the lande seuen yeares But in the seuenth yeare Ioiada the Byshop taking to him Centurions Captaynes and souldiors made a couenant with them and swore them in the house of the Lorde and shewed vnto them the kings sonne and gaue theÌ„ in charge what they should doe and brought out the son of the King and set the Crowne vpon him and the testimonie and made him King anoynted hym But Athalia when she sawe the King standing vpon the Tribunall according to the maner she cryed out treason treason But Ioiada the high Priest commaunded the Centurions and saide carie hir out without the boundes of the Temple And whosoeuer followeth hiâ—… let him be striken with the sworde And Athalia was killed in the Kyngs house Ioiada therefore made a couenant betweene the Lorde and the King and betweene the people And Ioas dyd that which was right before the Lorde all the dayes wherein Ioiada the Priest dyd teache hym Doe we not here playnely see the whole knowledge of the Kyngs cause to haue bene belonging towardes one high priest He calleth the souldiors Iudgeth the Queene that had ruled seuen yeares to haue raignedvniustly and commaunded hir both to be deposed and killed and in hir place dyd substitute Ioas to be King and subiected hym vnder the Lorde and placed hym aboue the people All which things sithe they were well done is it not nowe true according to the sentence of the diuine Scripture that the Byshop oughte to knowe of the causes of Kings and Emperours whether they be iuste or vniust For what so euer the Byshop in thys kynde doth whether he define the King to be deposed or to be placed he is no other than the Angell of the Lord out of whose lyppes as well Kyngs as priuate men oughte to requyre the lawe of the Lorde The hygh Priest is as it were a sequester as betweene the Lorde and the Kyng so betweene the Kyng and the People So whyle one Iudge in the Churche is ordayned bothe betweene Kings themselues sturred vp wyth mutuall contentions and also betweene them and theyr People infinite occasions of warres and tumults are cutte off Maister Saunders here firste asketh what he doth reason If he can not tell what he doth reason surely I know not But this I knowe that it was but a very weake reason and therefore belyke he was wearie of it and wyll returne agayne to vrge vs wyth example And here to knit vp the olde Testament he alleageth the example of Ioiada the high Priest for the kylling of Athalia and the substitutyng of Ioas to bée king But this example whiche beareth yet a face to come farre nerer to the purpose than any thyng spoken hetherto notwythstandyng if it be well considered is as farre from the purpose and as muche wrested vnto it as the other I omit that he still kepeth his old practise in iumbling together diuerse pieces of the scripture and not to set downe the text as it lyeth and yet he maketh a distinction of letter as though it were all the text Which and it were not his common vâ—…age of the scripture were the better to be borne withall and might be imputed to the â—…ters negligence as it often falleth out but in so often handling thus of the scripture it is not tollerable But to the example First I answere this pertayneth nothing to the questioÌ„ in hand for the deposing of a King. Here is no King deposed Here is an vsurper that had no righ so the kingdome killed And to your owne expositor Lyra saith vsurpauit sibi regnum Iuda prius describitur â—…uiusonodi vsurpatio She vsurped to hir selfe the kingdome of Iurie and this kinde of
can be made among ChristiaÌ„s that either the bishops of any kingdom much lesse the B. of Rome for al kingdomes ought to know the causes of kings Emperors whether they be iust or vniust This generalitie can not iustly be inferred on such a specialtie For neither al kings estates 〈◊〉 like to this kings estate nor all Bishops estates like to this Bishops estate as by the causes aforesayd appeareth Fourthly I answer that as here is inferred no ordinary rule for Bishops to haue knowledge in kings Emperors cau ses froÌ„ the coÌ„trarie here is inferred an ordinary rule for kings Emperors to haue knowledge of B. causes For eueÌ„ at the kings 〈◊〉 althogh he wer an infaÌ„t had no more skil of religioÌ„ thaÌ„ of gouernmeÌ„t the text saith they put the crowneâ—… vpon him and gaue him the lawe in his hande And so saythe Lyra the testimonie that is the law wherein he was ordeined ought to studie and meditate and keepe it and cause it to be kept True it is that the high Prieste did teach him and the King did well so long as he was taught of so godly a father And therevpon maye well be inferred that Byshops maye teach Kings that vvhich is right before the Lorde But this teaching of the King inferreth no publike gouernement of the King which the Pope claimeth and M. Saunders pleadeth for The authoritie of teaching the King and the authoritie of gouerning the King are â—…arre different authorities That of teaching we graunt to Ioiada and to al Godly Byshops not to teach what they will but that vvhiche is right before the Lord. And to sée that they do this the Prince hath the lavve of God giuen into his handes so well as the crowne set on his head to shewe that although the Byshops mustâ—… teach true doctrine and Godly exhortatioÌ„ yet must the King haue knowledge to ouersée that it be taught â–ª as well much more than any other matters of his kingdoms What shall we say then to the popishe Byshops which will not giue the lavve of God into the Princes handes but wring it out of his handes that he should not knowe it but blindly followe such false doctrine and naughtie examples as they woulde teache him are these Byshops like to the Byshop Ioiada And if this king fel to Idolatrie when he wanted this good teacher how shall that King doe that neuer had suche a teacher and yet for all this teaching of Ioiada that was as it were a father to the King the King notwithstanding while he continued good bothe commaunded all the Priestes and taught them how they should deale in their oblations collections reparations and other thinges belonging to the Temple And Ioas saide to the Priestes all the siluer of thinges dedicated that be brought to the house of the Lorde c. Let the Priestes take it vnto them euery one of his acquaintance and they shall repayre the broken places of the house vvheresoeuer any decaye is founde And in the 23. yeare of King Ioas the Priestes had not amended that vvhich vvas decayed in the Temple Then King Ioas called for Ioiada the Priest and the other Priests and saide vnto them VVhy repaire ye not the ruines of the Temple Novv therefore receiue no more money of your acquaintance except ye deliuer it to repaire the ruines of the Temple Thus did the King not only knovv of the Priestes causes but called them before him yea euen his vncle Ioiada the high Priest also appointed an order vnto them how to bestow their offerings And when they were negligent therein he rebuked theÌ„ reuoked his former ordinance except on their amendement Neither did the Priests no nor his vncle Ioiada the highe Prieste grudge or grumble hereat nor sayde that the offerings were theirs not his to dispose nor told him they were his superiors but as his inferiors most humbly obeyed his ordinances Al vvhich things fithe they vvere vvell done is not novve true according to the sense of the diuine Scripture that we may make a better ordinarie rule herâ—…on for Kings and Emperors to knovve of Byshops causes than for Byshops to knovve of Kings and Emperors causes If you replye this was but a money matter I answere yet was this money oblations and offerings But will you graunt Princes thus much to make ordinances howe all your money offerings shall be vsed when ye shall gather them and when not of whom ye shal take them and howe ye shall bestowe them â—…ay 〈◊〉 will neuer doe this for money is the chiefest thing ye shoote at no penie no pater noster all your eâ—…cl causes depende so on money offerings that as good ye gaue the prince authoritie in al ecclesiastical matters as let him deale thus with your money offerings as Ioas did with theirs But doth your own glosse expound this no further than to money matters Ioas saithe your glosse both in this name and in this vvorke signifieth Christ for it is interpreted the strength of the Lorde He commaundeth the teachers that they should take all the money that is offered into the Lordes house of the passers by to vvit whatsoeuer spirituall knovvledge or good vvorke is brought into the Lords treasorie that by the offices of the preachers it may be bestovved on the repayring of the spirituall Temple that vvhatsoeuer he shall finde torne by errour or hurte by Vices they should repaire least the multitude of hearers should perishe by the doctors negligence â–ª Here this facte of the King is compared to the representation of Christe and to the ouersight of all eccl. matters So that if Kings will account the studie of the Lawe of God as well to belong vnto them as their crowne if they will looke vnto know and examine the causes of the Byshops and their reuenues and appoint them orders to repair the ruines of the Lords temple and sée that the preachers lay out their talents of spirituall knowledge good workes towards the building then should kings truely represent Christe and be indéede the strength of the Lorde bycause they haue the Lords power authoritie thervnto And thus this example better considered maketh more for the Kings authoritie ouer the Byshops than for the Byshops ouer the Kings authoritie Fiftly I answere that althoughe a Godly Byshop be a sequester betwéen God the Prince betwéene the Prince and the people in prayer in the Sacramentes and in preaching yet â–ª is he not a sequester betwéen God and the Prince or betwene the Prince the people in matters of the kingdome least of all he may sequester him from his kingdome And though he be the Angell of the Lord in his message if he be a Godly byshop for otherwise he is the Angell of SathaÌ„ yet is the King the Lordes anoynted or the Lordes Christe in authoritie but the Lords Christ in authoritie is aboue the lordes Angels in message therefore the King
commaunded and prescribed vnto the chiefe priests what fourme and order they should obserue in ecclesiasticall causes and controuersies of religion Is not this then your own abhomination and contradiction â—…atly to say here is no fourme or order prescribed and that the Bishop belieth Gods holy woorde which in one that goeth for a student of Diuinitie to sclaunder one that goeth for a Bishop what can be done more malapertly But as ye thus sawfely misuse your better so full fondly and malitionsly do yâ—… gather that thereon then the which the Bishop minded nothing lesse nor can instly be gathered thereupon Yâ—… say the Bishop writeth thus to make folke weene that religion proceded then by way of commission from the Prince onely This is your owne spitefull sclander M. Stapl. not onely on the Bishop but on the Quéenes Maiestie your argument is this He prescribed them a fourme and order to obserue in coÌ„trouersies of Religion Ergo He attempted to make Religion proceede by way of commission from the Prince onely This is a false and maâ—…itions collection M. Stapl. from the fourme and order of athing to the thing it selfe It is your holy father the Pope to whom ye may obiect this conclusion he maâ—…eth religion to depende on him and to proceede from him onely â–ª by his Commissions and Legacies â—… latere We-acknowledge all true religion to procéede onely from God the father through Iesus Christ his sonne by the insâ—…ctioÌ„ of the holy ghost in the mouth of the Patriarches Prophets and Apostles And from the Prince to procéede onely such godly orders and formes of directing and setting foorth that true religion as he by the notable examples of these godly Kinges shall finde out paterns most expedient for him and his people to gouerne and order them of what â—…state soeuer they be in that true religion and all other ecclesiastical causes belonging thereto So did Iosaphat then so doth the Quéenes Maiestie now FroÌ„ whose authoritie next â—…nder â–ª God the order direction procéeded though the religioÌ„ procéeded not from them but altogither from God. Nay say you king â–ª Iosaphats dealings were rather with 〈◊〉 persoâ—… thâ—…n with matters ecclesiasticall This was M. FeckeÌ„hams former shifte and many proper ensamples and similitudes you also vsed thereon to dally about the 〈◊〉 of the ecclesiasticall person but not in ecclesiastical matters But those were but séely shifts and euer turned against your selfe in the ende And therefore ye darâ—… not abide by this shifte but within a litle while after yea euen in this Chapter ye recant and denie the obedience of the persons and all And what hath bene your practise any other than cleane to ridde your selues out of al obedience from the Princes authoritie ye knowe your Pope hath bene vnder the Emperour ere now but vnder what Princes obedience euen for his person will ye confesse your Pope at this day to be And do not all the packe of the popishe Priestes as his chickens clâ—…cke vnder his winges and exempt euen their persons also from the dutifull obedience they owe to their naturall soueraignes in so much that where the Popes primacie is admitted Princes can not by any of their laweâ—… â–ª fasten any condigne punishement vppon any ecclesiasticall persons â–ª what mischiefe soeuer they committe and all bicause the ecclesiasticall persons were priuileged and exempted from their Princes authoritie Wherein your generation dealt surely for themselues that hauing graunted them an inche got an elle For seing that if they should graunt againe the obedience of the person the cause and all would at last returne to his old master the Prince as it did before but you thinke your selfe sure inough if ye graunt that Iosaphat dealed with ecclesiasticall persons but not with their matters As ye shifted of the matter before that the Prince dealeth with a Bishop for his homage baronie and temporalties but not otherwise Thinke ye M. Stapl. and tell me on your fidelitie did Iosaphat meddle with the high Priestes and all other of the Clergie so well as his temporaltie onely in respecte of their persons or in respecte of their reuenues and linings vnder him or chiefly in any of these respectes did he thus commaunde them and deale with them or not rather and most of all in respect of refourming abuses in religion and setting in order all ecclesiasticall causes he appointed not onely the persons but the places where the persons shoulde execute their offices and what matters these and those persons shoulde entreate vppon and how they shoulde do them as your selfe haue confessed the manner And least we should thinke he â—…ubbered ouer the matter as ye say many good and godly princes among the Christians also haue charged their Bishops and clergie to see diligently vnto their flockes and charges Ye say true M. Stapleton many godly Princes haue thus done to your further confutation in this issue But you meane they haue onely giuen them a generall exhortation and yet neuerthelesse lefte the matter wholly in their Clergies hands not medling themselues therewith Least ye should thinke that Iosaphat did it thus sclenderly not that his chiefe charge of ouersight lay thereon not onely of them all generally but particulerly in euery kinde of matter the holy ghost hath penned out how precisely he went to worke that rather hauing his care about the matters then the persons For this was his principal marke care not so much that the person might sit in authoritie as that the matter might wisely and truly be iudged and discerned and therfore saith the text In Hierusalem quoque constituit Iosaphat Leuitas sacerdotes principes familiaruÌ„ ex Israel vt iudicium causam domini Iudicarent habitatoribus eius c. Praecepitque eis c. And Iosaphat appointed in Ierusalem Leuites and Priests and families of Israell that they might giue iudgement and iudge the cause of the Lorde to the inhabitants thereof c. And he coÌ„maunded them saying Thus shall ye do in the feare of the Lord faithfully and with a perfecte harte and in euery cause that shall come vnto you of your brethren that dwell in their Cities betweene bloud and bloud betweene lawe and precepte statutes and iudgements ye shall iudge them and admonish them c. Whervpon saith Lyra Hic ordinatur regimeâ—â— populi in arduis causis c. Here is ordeyned the gouernment of the people in difficult causes which could not well be cutte of without recourse had to Ierusalem according to that which is coÌ„maunded Deuter. 17. Where it is saide if thou shalt perceyue the iudgement before thee to be difficult and doubtfull arise and get thee vp to the place which the Lord shall choose c. And therefore Iosaphat appointed iudges there to determine such difficult matters Wherefore it followeth euery cause which commeth vnto you c. VVheresoeuer the question is if it be of the lawe so
sayings Stapl. 62. b 63. a M. Sta. vnlyke similitude to disburthen M. Fecknham Howe falsely M. Sta. chalengeth vs for heretikes for leauing oute an article of the common crede in the Apologie How cunning M. Stap. himselfe â—…s in the coÌ„mon creede M. Stap. notes the Bishop and other for graÌ„mar and â—…o what a Grammarian he shewes himselfe to be Contr. Valent. lib. 1. cap. 2. lib. 3. cap. 4. De praescript haereticorum Fol. 423. li. â—… Diuis 159. cap. 4. M. Stap. taketh on him to teache the bishop his Catechisme Stap. fol. 423. M Sta. in saying the Common crede leaueth out these words And in Iesus Christe our Lorde Stapl. 423. a M. Sta. leaueth out againe in saying the coÌ„mon Creede these wordes crucified dead and buryed Stapl. 423. a Aâ—… other article left oute by M. Sta. in saying the common creede That he sitteth at the right haÌ„d of God the father almighty Whether Cardinall Hosi ' be iustly chalenged to maintain the SweÌ„k feldians heresiâ—… or no. Stap. 63. 2. Stap. 63. â—… The Dâ—…natists did not simply refuse the oldâ—… â–ª testamente as the Manichees did but subâ—…ly as the Papistes do Aug. de haereâ—… Ad quod vult Stapl. 63. a. b The seconde motiue that moued the Bishop to chalenge M Feck to followe the Donatisteâ—… Supra pag. Diuis 18. pag. 11. How the Donatists and Papistes denie the Princes gouernement in Ecclesiasticall cau ses and refâ—…rie it onely to the clergie What the Papistes meane by the Church M. Sta. reâ—…oketh his grauÌ„t The Donatists exclaming on the Princes for Ecclesiasticall causes argueth that the supreme gouernemente of them was in the Princes Stap. 63. b Stapl. 63. b M. Stapl. example of the Princis punishing an honest man for a theefe A theefe in christen religion Iohn 10. M. Sta. simili tude returned vpon himself M. Stapl. letteth go the testimonies of S Aug. alleaged by the Bishop Stapl. 63. b Winton pag. 12. b. The speciall 〈◊〉 oâ—… christian princis Further examples of the old Testament alledged by S. Aug. for princes dealing in ecclesiasticall matters Stapletons order to this di uision Stap. 65. a Number of testimonies Whereto the former testimonies of S. Aug. were alleaged Wherto serue the authorities present Here M. Stapl. confesseth that Princes ought to make lâ—…wes for the â—…rance of Christes religion The Papistes denying the Queene to make lawes and say no catholike denyeth it denye them selues to be catholikes The Papistes subtill meaning in theyr plaine speaches The holde of a Papists worde and the holde of a weat Eele by the tayle Howe trimly the Papists and we do here agree in words See a subtill â–ª Papist At a dead life well fare a papists shift M. Stapl. renueth an olde knacke of Arrius Howe finely M. Stapl. can turne his tale Stapl. 65. a. 65. b Belyke M. Sta. wantes good neighbours Stapl. 65. b Here M. Stapl. bewrayeth all the â—…etche of his former graunte Howe craâ—…tyly M. Stap. limited the Princes making of lawes All M. Stapletons ioly grauÌ„t to Princes is nowe come to nothing but to make them the clergies slaughtermen and droyles M. Stapletons fayâ—…e texte and foule glose Stapl. 65. b. How S Augustine acknowledged the Prince M. Stap. telleth of all this that August wrote but what this all this is he duist not vtter August contr Gaudent epist. 2 li. 2. câ—… 26. Epist. 50. The testimonies of S. Aug. to proue the princes dealing in ecclesiastical causes to reach further than making lawes for punishing heretâ—…kes Epist. 48. M. Stapl. wold returne S. Augustines words vppon vs. Stapl 65 b. How sure the Papistes make all pointes againste the Protestantes Stap. 65. b Howe Princes punished deprauers of religion in saint August tyme. Stapl. 65 b. The Princes lawes for blasphemers The Princes carefull prouiding Stap. 65. b M. Stapletons strong proues Stapl. 65. b. Contempte of Sacraments Popish Sophistâ—…e can make 7. of 2. Stapl 65 b. Councels Matth. 26. Ioho 11. The Papistes maynteyn coÌ„demned doctrines 1. Tim. 4. Stap. 65. b Howe the Bishop called the Papists Donatistes Howe darke and subtilly M. Stapl. speaketh How farre the examples of the olde Testament stretche to directe christian princes M. Stapl. will proue that we denie that whi che we affirm What it is that we affirme of the Princes authoritie Stapl. 66. â—… Stap. 65. a Who bee the true Donatistâ—… for saying Princes maye not punishe in causes of Godâ—… religion M. Stapl. himself cleereth vs of that he falsly burdeneth vs. Stapl. 66. a Howe Luther sayd Faith can not be forced Croyses and Turkishe warres The question whether Princes maye punishe heretikes by death How the Papistes proue vs to be heretikes The Princes dutie where any are chalenged to be heretikes An inuectiue gainst M. Fox M. Foxes boke and B. Iewels great eyesores to the Papists Stap. 66. a. Sir Thomas Hitton priest False slaunders and malicious misseconstructions of the faithfull Luc. 23. Matth. 26. Iohn 19. Act. 6. Hewe the Papistes deale with the Protestantes and their articles Math. 5. The vneuen dealing of the Papistes Sir Thomas Hitton priest no Donatist Sir Iohn Oldcastell Stap. 66. b. â—… Stap. 66. b. M. Stapletons weake argument Maister Foxes synceritie in the Papistes falshoodes Sir Iohn Oldcastle proued no Donatist Sir Thomas More himselfe mislyked the punishment of manslaughter in many offen ceâ—… The aunciente punishment of of heretikes Declar. Erasmi tit de puniendis her 76. 77. The myld spirit of popishe Bishoppes and Abbots S. August opinion of the pu nishement of heretikes The Circumcelions Punishement by the purse Banishment The popishe crueltie The difference herein betwen Erasmus and the Popishe Bishops S. Hieroms opinioÌ„ herein and the resons mouing him thereto The Papistes in crueltie come neerest the Donatistes Eras. decla tit de pun hâ—… The mercie of the Gospell Though the Gospell taketh not awaye politike lawes or punishmentes yet is there a 〈◊〉 betweene them and the Gospell The Sorbonistes coÌ„fession In declar bras tit de pun haer Howe the Papistes yet neerer resemble the Donatistes Stap. 66. b. 67. a Stap. 67. a How M. Feck yeldes not to the examples of the olde testament and yet yelding to the new Testa ment is comprehended by it though he comprehended it not Pag. 14. a. M. Stapleton cap. 7. fol. 68. a M. Stapl. order in this diuision Stapl. 68. a. M. Sta. now at the length is driuen to graâ—…t Princes some regiment in Ecclesiasticall causes M. Stapleton graunteth also to Princes supreme gouernement in all ecclesiasticall causes In natural and ordinarie propositions the indefinite betokens the vniuersall Stap. 68. â—… â–ª M. Stap â–ª confesseth that the Bishop hath proued the full issue in question betweene M. Fecknham and him Stap. 68. a M. Sâ—…apl grant of all that the Bishop hathe hitherto alleaged Esai 49. Whether the Bishops examples and allegations beeing granted of M. Stapl. reache home or no. The prince supreme gouernour of all and
euery ecclesiasticall cause What this supreme gouernement is Why kings Queenes are called Nourishers and Nurses of Gods Churche Stâ—…p 67. â—… M. Stâ—…p grantes to CoÌ„stantine this supreme gouerment and denieth it to the Queenes Maiestie M. Stap. goeth now about by wrangling to defeate all his former graunt The princebeing called Metaphorically as it were a Bish. maketh no breach into the offico of a Bishop What these vvordes Bishop and nourse betokeÌ„ although in deede the Prince be neyther nourse nor Bishop Stap. 68. a. Stapl. 68 b M. Stapl. false translation of Constantineâ—… wordes The sentence of Constantine and the true meaning therof Euseb. de vita Const. li. 4. Hovv M. Stap. vnderstandeth invvard things and outvvarde things hovv vve vnderstand them in Constantines sentence The matter maner of eyther Bishoprik Stapl. 29. b. As M. StapletoÌ„ vnderstandes this sentence the Turke is as good a bishop as a Christian â–ª Prince Procuration execution of Churche matters The Papistes vvould haue Princes to bee bâ—…t the Priests proctours and executioners â–ª at the moste Fol. 69. a. The Bishops allegatioÌ„s ouâ—… of the nevve Testament 62. b. Stap. 69. a â—… Sta. graunteth the Bish. argument Stap. 69. a M. Stapletons diuinitie Stap. 69. â—… M. Stapletoâ—… vp braydyng the Bishops diuinitie see what good diuinitie he hym selfe maketh M. Stapl. Logike Matth. 22. The nevv Testament confirmeth the figure of the old Testament That subiectes may paye tribute â–ª but they ought not All humanitie iâ—… destroied by by M. Stapletons good diuinitie Stap. 69. a The captious questions of the Iewes The flatte and generall aunswer of christ M. Stapl. dea leâ—…h as captiously as the Iewes An externall Prince An infidell Prince Luc. 2. Stap. 69. a. b By the name of Cesar Christe compreheÌ„deth all princes Christes aunswere a general commaundement Stapl. 69. b. M. Sea. manyfest vntruâ—… Stap. 69. B By M. Stapletons exposition of Christes Sentence not all obediencâ—… to Princes 〈◊〉 seâ—…e at libertie but all obedience to God. The one parte of the sentence bindeth asmuche as the other Matth. 22. M. Stapletons Grammer The iudgemeÌ„t of the writers of this sentence cleane contrarie to maister Stapleton Lib. de fug in persecution In Matth. 22. tract 21. The same saith M. Stapl. Orig. ibid. In. 20. Luc. homil 38. In Mat. câ—… 23. In regula Monachorum In Matth. 22. homil 71. In Luc. lib. 9. cap. 20. Contr. FaustuÌ„ Manichaeuâ—… lib. 22. ca. 74. In. 22. Math. Lyra in Matth. 22. M. Stapletons contradictions Stapl. 69. b. Stap. 70. â—… This admonition godly and necessarie Stap. fol. 70. What a proper determination M. Sta. maketh of Christes sentence Stapl. 70. a M. Stapleton measureth our doings by his owne The practise of the Popes with christian princes Sta pag. 70. â—… The Bishoppes further testimonies of the newe Testament with the fathers iudgementes theron The order of M. Stapletons ansvvere Stap. pag. 71. b M. Stapletons maner at firste to graunte aooÌ„ after by some wrangling distinction to reuoke his graunt M. Sta. graunteth the Prince hath the ouersight as well of the first as the second table Stapl. pag. 72. Stap. pag. 72. M. Stapletons shifte of the court of conscience Melancth v â–ª supra The Prince dealeth neither with the fyrst nor secoÌ„d table in respect of the court of conscience but of the outwarde facte Stap. pag. 7â—… Stapl. 7â—… b. M. Stapl. after his pinching taketh cleane away his own graunt M. Stapleton woulde proue contradiction to MelancthoÌ„ Stap. fol. 72. b M. Stapl. subtile and false translating Stap. fol. 73. a. M. Stapletons cauill agayoste Mast. Nowell Christian Prin ces clayme not supreme goâ—…ement without limitation but the Pope clamyeth it Stapl. 73. â—… The acte of parliament Sta. pag. 73. â—… Stap. pag. 73. a Stap. pag. 73. a What maner of authoritie the othe of the supremacie requireth M. Stapletons quarell at the Bishops interpretation of this word godlynesse lib. 1. de trin cap. 14. S. Augustines exposition The exposition of other fathers Chrysost. in 1. Tim. 2. bomil 7 Ambâ—…osius in 1. Tim. 2. Hâ—…ymo in 1. Tim 2. Glossa interlineata â—…ytanus Hugo Card. Stapl. 73. b. Stap. fol. 73. b Stap. fol. 73. b. Sta. 73. b. The cause why the Apostles taughte obedience so earnestly Stap. fol. 72. b Stapl. fol. 73 b A distinction betweene the the Princes person or vices and his estate or office Chrysost. in Rom. Stapl. 73. b. The Pope claimeth superioritie in ciuile and temporall matters The Pope oughte to bee the Emperours subiect by M. Staplet owne graunt Chrysosto in Rom. 13. homil 23. Why the Prince is called gods minister Stap. fol. 73. b. Chrysost. homil 4. de eo ê™ scripsit Esa. Howe M. Sta â–ª citeth Chrysostome The facte of Czias whâ—…me the Papists alleage maketh agaynst themselues not against vs. Wherein the Pastor being the ministâ—…r of God surmouÌ„teth the Prince being also the ministâ—…s of God. Wherin againe the Princes ministerie surmounteâ—…h the pastours ministerie The sentence that the Papistes cite out of Chrysostome for their priestes maketh cleane against them Priestes mariage Chrysosto dâ—… verbis Esa. homil â—… Stap. fol. 74. a M. Stapletons argument The answere to the argument Stapl. 75. a. Stap. pag. 75. a Stap. 74. b. Fol. 75. a. Stapl. cap. 19. fol. 75. b Iohn 9. Constantine chaunged religion Tertull. The Queenes highnesse hath not altered but restored the olde and former faith What Bishops the Queenes Maiestie hathe deposed Stap. foll 7â—… b Why the prince is called the minister of God. The worde of doctrine Stapl. 75. b The Princes best ministeris and seruice Stap. fol. 75. b M. Stapletons shifting ansvvere Stap. 75. b. Stap. 75. b. Nicephorus iudgement of the Princes supremacie Stap. fol 76. b M. Stapletons Miste M. Stapletons inâ—…ect â—…e agaâ—…nst the homilie of images Matth. 23. Anthropol lib. 23. Lascaris The contention betweene the greeke and Latine churche for images Stap. 76. b. In the homilie against idolatrie Baruch 6. Stapl. 77. b. The Bishop of Sarum and the author of the homilie discharged of M. Stapl. chalenge Petrus Crinit l b. 9 cap. 9. de honest diâ—…c Te Papistes offended at our Homelies Bedes Homelies Sta. 79. a. b Mistaking the name of an Emperour Langus in prâ—…fa Niceph. Anthropolog lib. 23. The Papisteâ—… themselues call this Emperour as the Bishop did Stapl. 77. a. What a bragger M. Stapl. is Nicephorus selaundered â–ª lib. 4. cap. 8. fol. 468. b How M. Stap. reuileth the Emperour Praefat Langi in Eccl. histor Niceph. Stap. 77. b. Whereon wee buyld the Prin ces supremacie and whereon the Papistes buyld the Popes supromacie Langi Epist. ad Ferdin M Stapletoâ—…s order Stapl. 77. b M. Sta. burdeneth the Greke priests to farre The supremecie of the Greeke Emperours The Grecians opinion in the holie Ghostes proceeding Math. 7. Stapl. 77. b. 〈◊〉 77. b Stapl. 77. b. Stapl. 77. b. Stapl. 77. b â–ª Stapl. 78â—… Pag. 17. b. The Bishops proues