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A07698 A dyaloge of syr Thomas More knyghte: one of the counsayll of oure souerayne lorde the kyng [and] chauncellour of hys duchy of Lancaster. Wherin be treated dyuers maters, as of the veneration [and] worshyp of ymages [and] relyques, prayng to sayntys, [and] goyng o[n] pylgrymage. Wyth many othere thyngys touching the pestylent sect of Luther and Tyndale, by the tone bygone in Sarony, and by tother laboryed to be brought in to Englond; Dyaloge of dyvers maters More, Thomas, Sir, Saint, 1478-1535. 1529 (1529) STC 18084; ESTC S104969 282,100 256

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his syn wold for ꝑte of hys penaunce wyllyngly offer hym self to the sufferaūce of open shame ther were no good cristen mā that wold after that lyke the man that wors but a grete deale the better And yf all suche opē cōfessyō were synne there was mych syn vsed amōg good folke many day in Crystꝭ chirch whā yt was mich better thā yt is now Lo Achā that had cōmytted sacrylege wherof ys wryten in Iosue was exorted by Iosue to cōfesse hys faute opēly gyue glory to god that had detected him by lottis And so dyd he and mekely suffered for hys syn as well the shame wōder of the worlde as the payn ād bytternes of deth And therfore I no more dout of that the●e but that he is a glorioꝰ saint in heuen thā I dout of that these the cryst promysed Paradyse hangynge on the crosse And ●urely yf mēnys old fautys were styll theyr īfamy after theyr amēdemēt thā was saynt Peter lytell beholdē to saīt Mathew other of hys felows that haue slaūdred hym in theyr gospels tellyng how shāfully after all hys crakꝭ he forsoke his mayster forsware hī both yf a good man ware naght the bet● he was the more synne it is the more shame also And ys yt not thā ī resō ō the tother syde yf a naughty mā wax good the worse he was the better is for hī the more worship also Our lord sayth hī self that for one sīner comīg again to grace ther is more ioy ī heue than vppō almost an hūdred good folk that neuer sinned And rekē we then that man shamed by the knolege of his ●yn here amōg synfull mē whose hūble cōfessiō me●e amēdemēt wīneth him so mych worship in heuē Trust me truly whā a mā hath done euyll if he be duly sworē it is a worshipfull shāe a ioyfull sorow to cōfesse the treuth and good folke though they abhore the sī yet loue thei cōmed the mā as one that was noght ys good And the shame that he cōceyueth ī hys harte afore the worlde geteth hym grete honour afore god the shorte glowīg here in his chekis spedely burneth vp wasteth that neuer wastyng fyre of hell standyng hym ferther in stede of grete ꝑte of his purgatory And therfore to the poynt that we speke of wtout longe ꝓcesse I tell you playnly my mynde that no man can be excused from the ꝑell of ēdlesse dānaciō that wold vpō boldnes of eny doctors opynyō hyde or couer hys faute by eny cautell after a lawfull oth gyuē him to tell the playn trothe therin And who so wyll say the cōtrary he must nedys hold playn agaynst the law say that no iuge may lawfully gyue an othe to the ꝑty wherof shuld the othe serue yf the party myght lefully forswere hym self And also yf the iudge may not lawfully giue hym y● o the thā may he refuse to swere may not first swere thā say false whych euery man must vppō dāpnacyō eschew though he folily take an othe where he lawfully myght refuse yt ¶ Forsothe quod he me thynketh ye take the sure way ¶ well q I yf this be so in one that is sworē where the mater as he thinkyth cā not be well ꝓued how farre wronge went the man that we speke of to forswere hym selfe in a mater of prechyng that he wyll well was so opē that it wold be playnly ꝓued what synne was therin what synne foly thereto was there to stycke styll in hys ꝑiury whā he saw the mater a●lredy proued so clerely by so many so good so honest so indefferent that he coulde nothing now wyn by the dē●●e●● but euyll opyniō almost a dispayre of his amēdemēt in all that euer hatd hī ¶ In good fayth q he all this is very truthe ther for we shall let him a lone tyll god send hym better mynde The .viii. chapyter ¶ The author shewethe why the new testamēt of Tyndals trāslacyō was burned she with for a sample certaī wordꝭ euill of euyll purpos chāgid BUt now I pray you let me kno your mynd cōcernyng the burnīg of the new testamēt ī ēglish which Tindal lately trāslated as mē say right wel whiche makethe mē mich meruayl of the burnīg ¶ It is q I to me gret meruayl that eny good cristē mā hauīg eny drop of wyt ī hys hed wold eny thīg meruell or cōplayn of ye●urnīg of the boke if he knowe the mater which who so callith the new testamēt calleth it by a wrōg name except they wyl call yt Tyndals testament or Luthers testamēt For so had tyndall after Luthers coūsayle corrupted chaūged yt frō the good holsō doctryne of Criste to the deuylysh heresyes of theyr own that it was clene a cōtrary thing ¶ That were maruayle q your frend that it shuld be so clene cōtraty For to som that red it yt semed very lyke ¶ It ys q I neuer the lesse cōtrary yet the more peryll●ꝰ For like as to a trew siluer grote a fals coꝑ grote is neuer the lesse cōtrary thogh yt be quyk syluered ouer but so mych the more false show mich it is coūterfeted the more lyke to the trouth so was the trāslaciō so mich the more cōtrary ī how mich it was cra●cely deuysed like so mych the more peryllus ī how miche it was to folke vnlernyd more hard to be dyssernid ¶ why q your frēd what fautꝭ wer ther syt To tell you all the q I were in a maner to reherse you all the hole hoke wherin ther were founden and noted wrong fa●●ly trāslated aboue a thousand textꝭ by tale ¶ I wolde q he fayn here some one ¶ He that shuld q I study for that shuld study where to finde water in the see But I wyll shewe you for ensample two or thre suche as euery one of the thre ys more than thryes thre in one ¶ That were q he very straunge except ye mene more ī weyght For one cā be but one in nōber ¶ Surely q I as weyghty be they as eny lyghtly can be But I mene the euery one of them is more thā thryes thre in nōber ¶ That were q he sūwhat lyke a rydel ¶ This rydell q I wyl sone be red For he hath mystrāslated .iii. wordꝭ of gret weyght euery ōe of thē is as I suppose more than thryes three tymes repeted and rehersed in the boke ¶ Ah that may well be q he but that was not well done But I pray you what wordꝭ be they ¶ The tone ys q I this word prestys The to ther the chyrch The thyrd charyte For prestis wher so euer he speketh of the pstꝭ of Crystis chirch he neuer calleth them prestes but alway seuyours the chyrch he calleth alway the congregacyō and charyte he callyth all 〈◊〉 loue Now do these namꝭ in our englysh
towchīge the cause why he chaunged the name of preste into senior ye muste vnderstād that luthere and his adherentys holde thys heresye that all holy order ys nothyng And that a prest is nothyng ellys but a man chosen among the peple to preche and that by that choyce to that o●●yce he is preste by and by wythoute eny more ado and no preste agayne whan so euer the people chese a nother in hys place and that a preestys offyce is no thynge but to preche For as for saynge masse and herynge of confessyō and absolucyon theruppō to be geuen all thys he sayethe that euery man woman and childe may do as well as eny preste Now doth hychen therfore to ●et forthe thys opynyon wythall after hys masters herysye putte a waye the name of preste in hys translacyone as thoughe prestehede were not●yng where so euer the scrypture speketh of the prestys that were amonge the Iewes there dothe he in hys ●translacyon call theym styll by the name of prestis But where so euer the scrypture spek●th of the prestys of Christis chyrche ther● doth he put away the name of prest in hys translacyō bycause he wold make hyt se●●e that the scrypture dyd neuer speke of eny prestys dyfferent from ley men amonge chrysten peple And he sayeth playnly in hys boke of obedyēce that presthed and all holy orders amōg crysten peple be but faynyd inuētiōs that prestys be nothyng but offycers chosyn to preche that all the consecration wherby they be cōsecrate is not hynge worth And for this cause ī all his trāslacyon where so euer he speketh of thē the name of pr●est whych to vs in oure own tōg hath alway sygnyfyed an en●ynted persō and wyth holy orders cōsecrated vnto god he hath chaungede in to the name of senyor no worde of our language but eyther vsed halfe in mockage whā we speke frēch in sporte dieu vous garde senior or at the ●erdest nothynge betokenynge but elder So that yt ys ●the to se what he ment in the turnynge of these namys ¶ In good fayth quod your frende it semeth veryly that he ment not well ¶ Surely quod I ye wolde well say so yf y● sawe all the placys whych I shall cause you to se when ye wyll and ye shall soone iudge theym your selfe For yt were to longe to reherse theym all now Nor these haue I not rehersed you as for the cheef but for that they cā fyrst to mynde For ell●s I myght shortely reherse you many thyngys moo as farre owte of tewne as theese be For he chaungeth cōmenly the name of grace in to thys worde fauour where as euery fauour ys not grace in englyshe for in sū fa●our is there lytle grace Confessyone he traunslateth in to knowledgynge Penaunce in to repentaūce A cōtryte herte he ●haūgeth ī to a troubled hart And many mo thingis lyke and many ●●rtys vntrewly traūslated for the mayn tenaūce of heresye as I shall shew you same when we loke in the boke whych thyngis we shall not now reson vppon for they be not worthy to be brought ī questyone But I telle you thys mych onely for this cause that ye may pe●ceyue that he hath thus vsed hym selfe in hys translacyone to th entent that he wold sett forthe luthers heresyes hys owne therby For fyrst he wold make the peple beleue that we shuld byleue nothyng but playne scrypture in whych poynt he techeth a playne pestylent heresye then wold he wyth hys false trāsla●yō make the peple beene ferther that such artycles of oure fayth as he laboreth to destroy and which be well proued by holy scripture were in holy scrypture nothynge spoke● of but that the prech●●s haue all this xv C. yere myssreported the gospell and englyshed the scrypture wrong to lede the people purposely owte of the ryght way ¶ The .ix. chapyter ¶ The author shewethe a nother grete token that the translaciō was ꝑyllous made for ā euyll purpose BUt to th ētēt ye shall yet the lesse doute what good ●ra●te was ītēded by thys trāslacyō easyly iudge your self whyther yt was well worthy to be burned or not ye shall vnderstād that there hath be synnys the tyme a nother booke made in englysh impryntyd as it sayeth ī Almayne a folyshe rayling boke agaynst the clergye and mich parte made in tyme but the effect therof was all agaynst the masse the holy sacramētꝭ In thys boke the maker ●ayleth vppō all them that causyd Tyndals trāslacyon of the new testamēt to be burned sayng that they burnyd it bicause that yt destroyed the masse wherby ye may see that he rekenyd that translacyon very good for theyr purpose toward y● destruccyō of the masse By saynt mary masse quod your frend that boke is a shrewd glose for the tother For yt shewed a cause for whyche yt was well worthy to be burnyd and the maker wyth yt yf yt were made to destroye the masse But who made that seconde boke ¶ For so●● q I yt appereth not in the boke For the boke ys put forthe namelesse and was in the begynnyng rekened to be made by Tyndall And whyther yt so were or not wee be not yet very sure ●ow be yt syth that tyme Tindall hath put owte in hys owne name a nother boke ●tytled Māmona which boke is ●er● māmona iniquitatis a very tresoury and well sprynge of wyckednes And yet hathe he sythens put forth a wor● also named the obedyence of a crysten man a boke able to make a crystē man that wolde byleue yt leue of all good crysten vertues and lese the meryte of hys crystendom In the preface of hys fyrst boke callyd Mammona he saith y● one frer●●●erome made the tother boke that we talke of whych frere Syerome gyuyng vp hys order of the frere obseruauntys cam to hym where he was shewyng hym that he wold caste of his abyte and leue hys relygyon assaye now to serue god and that afterward he lefte hym and wentte vnto Roy whyche ys as I thynke ye knowe a nother appostyta by wose counsale Tyndale sayeth that the frere H●ero●e made y● boke wherein Tyndall sayeth that he myslykyth hys rymys and hys ouer mych raylynge And sayethe also that he fereth leste frere Hyerome shall not well proue all that he promyseth in that boke ¶ why q your frend is that all the fere that he fyndeth in hym selfe and all the fawte that he fyndeth in y● frere and hys boke ¶ ye in good fayth quod I euery whytte ¶ Thā fyndethe he q your frende no faut in hys apostasye ¶ No more quod I than I shewe you ¶ Nor findeth he quod your frēde no faute in that the freres boke sayeth that the new testament of Tyndall was burnid bicause it stroyed the masse ¶ Neuer a whytte q I more than you here ¶ And fereth he quod your frend no thyng ellys but leste the
that sauing for thauthoryte of the chyrch men coud not knowe what scrypture they sholde byleue And here ys hyt shewed that god wyll not suffre the chyrch to be deceyued in the choyce of the very scrypture of god from eny counterfete NOw ys yt I suppose well clerely proued by scrypture the thyng that I promysed that ys to wytt that the chyrche cā not erre in any suche substauncyall artycle as god wyl haue vs boūden to byleue ¶ But yet for as myche as ye regarde nothynge but scrypture onely thys wolde I fayne wytte of you whyther ye byleue that chryste was borne of a vyrgyn ¶ what els quod he ¶ why byleue you that quod I ¶ The gospell sheweth me so quod he ¶ what yf yt dyd not quod I were thā your crede oute of credence but yf he brynge wytnesse wyth hym ¶ The crede quod he ys a thynge by yt selfe ¶ yet ys yt quod I no parte of the gospell as the pater noster ys And yet I thynke yf gospell had neuer bene wryten ye wolde haue byleued your crede ¶ So thynke I to q he ¶ And wherfore q I but for bycause the chyrch shuld haue shewed you so But let our crede alone a whyle and go we to the gospel selfe whych gospel telleth you that cryste was borne of a vyrgyn ¶ The gospel of seynt luke quod he ¶ How knowe you that q I ¶ For I rede yt so quod he in the booke ¶ ye rede q I suche a boke But how know yow that saynt Luke made yt ¶ How knowe I quod he other bokꝭ but by that they bere the namys of they re authors wrytē vppō them ¶ Know you yt wel therby quod I Many bookes be there that haue false inscrypcyons and are not the bookes of theym that they be named by ¶ That ys trouth q he But yet though men dyd peraduēture erre and fayle ī the name as if he shulde repute a boke of Stories to be made by Titus Liuius whych he neuere made but sū other honest cūnīg mā yet were the boke nether lesse elygaunt nor lesse trewe therfore Nor in lyke wyse if the chyrche dyd mysse take the very name of sum euaūgelyste gospell yet were the gospell neuer the lesse trew ¶ That ys quod I well sayde But how be ye sure that the mater of the boke ys trew ¶ Mary quod he for I am ¶ That ys quod I the reasō that a mayde layeth for her owne knowlege of her maydēhed But she coulde tell a nothere how she knoweth she hath yt sauynge that she ys lothe to cū so nere as to be a knowen that she coulde tell how she myghte lese yt But here ys no such fere Tell me therfore whereby wot ye that the mater of that booke ys trew ¶ I thynke quod he that god sheweth me so ¶ That ys well thought quod I. But he tolde yt you not mouthe to mouth ¶ No q he But he hath tolde yt to other in the bygynnynge or els yt was well knowen in the bygynnynge whan he wrote yt And he was knowen and byleuyde by hys liuynge and the myracles that god dyd for hī And after that yt was onis knowē the knowlege went forth fro mā to mā And god hath so wroght wyth vs that we byleue yt bycause the hole chyrch hath alway done so byfore our dayes ¶ Now cum you quod I to the very poynte for many thyngys hath bene trew y● in procys after hathe lefte to be byleuyd And many a thing hath in the bygynnynge bene knowen for false and yet hath after happed to be byleuyd But the gospels and holy scrypture god prouydeth that though percase sum of it may perishe be loste whereby they myghte haue harme but not fall in errour for the fayth shulde stande though the scrypturys were all gon yet shall he neuer suffer his chirch to be deceyued in that poynt that they shall take for holy scripture eny boke that ys not And therfore sayeth holy saynt Austē I shuld not byleue the gospell but yf yt were for the chyrche And he sayeth good reasone For were yt not for the spyryte of god keping the trouth therof in hys chyrch who could be sure whych were the very gospels There were many that wrot the gospell And yet hathe the chyrch by secrete instinct of god reiectyde the remenaunte and chosen oute these foure for the sure vndowted trew ¶ That ys quod he sure so ¶ Thys ys quod I so sure so that Luther hym selfe ys dryuyn of necessytye to graunte thys or els he perceyuyth that there were none holde nor surtie ī scripture yt selfe yf the chyrch myght be suffrede by god to be deceyued in that poynt to take for holy scrypture that wryting that in dede were not And therfore he confessyth that thys muste nedys be a sure infallyble grounde that god hath geuyn thys gifte vnto hys chyrch that hys chyrche cā alway dyscerne the word of god frō the worde of mē ¶ In good faythe quod he that muste nedys be so or els all wolde fayle ¶ Quod I than ye that wolde byleue the chyrche in nothinge nor giue sure credence to the tr●dycyon of the chyrch but yf yt were p●ued by scrypture now se yt prouyd to you that ye coulde not byleue the scrypture but yf yt were proued to be scrypture by the iudgemente and tradycyō of the chyrch ¶ No quod he but when I haue lerned onys of the chyrch that yt ys holy scrypture and the worde of god than I bileue it better than I byleue al the chyrche I myght by a lyght persone sumtyme know a mych more substancyall mā And yet whā I know hym I wyll byleue hym mych beter thā hym by whome I know hym if they varied ī a tale and were cō●rary ¶ Good reason quod I. But the chyrch b●ddith you not byleue the cōtrary of that the scrypture sayeth But he tellythe you that in such placys as ye wold better bileue the scrypture than the chyrche there ye vnderstand not the scrypture For what so euer wordys yt spekyth yet yt meanyth not the contrary of that the chirch techeth you And the chirch can not be deceyued in any such weghtye poynt ¶ whereby shall I knowe q he ¶ why be we at the poynt yet quod I haue we so sone forgotten the perpetuall assystence of the trynyte in hys chyrch and the prayoure of Chryste to kepe the fayth of hys chyrche fro faylīge and the holy gost sen●e of purpose to kepe ī the chirch the rememberaunce of Chrystꝭ wordꝭ and to lede them in to all trouth what wold yt haue profited to haue put you ī●he rememberaunce of the assystense of god with the chylderne of Israell walkyng wyth thē in the cloude by day ī the pyler of fyer by nyght in theyr erthly viage and therby to haue prouyde you the mych more specyall assystence of god wyth hys christē chyrch
they cā not lyghtly mete wyth mych worse company than theym selfe and that they rather corrupt vs than we them ¶ The .xiii. chapyter ¶ The messenger moueth that yt wold do well that prestys shold haue wyuys wherunto the author maketh answer BUt I wold wene it wold amēd myth ꝑte of this mater yf they myghte haue wyuys of they re owne ¶ Mary q I so sayth luther Tyndal also sauyng that they go sūwhat ferther forth For Tyndall whose bookys be nothīg els ī effect but the worst heresyes pyked out of Luthers workys Luthers worst wordꝭ translated by Tyndall put forth in Tyndals own name doth in his frātyke boke of obedyēce wherin he rayleth at large agaynst all popes agaīst all kyngꝭ agaynst all prelatys all pres●ꝭ all relygyous all the lawes all the sayntys agaynst the sacramētys of Crystꝭ chyrch al agaīst vertuous workys agaynst all dyuyne seruyce and fynally agaynst all thyng in effecte the good is in that boke I say Tyndal holdeth the prestꝭ must haue wy●ys And that he groundeth wysely vpō the wordys of saynt Poule where he wryteth to Thimotheus Oportet episcopum esse irreprehensibilem vnius vxo●is virū That a bysshop must be a mā vnreproueable and the husbande of one wyfe And that yt muste be consydered whether he haue well brought vp hys chyldren and well gouerned hys housholde By these wordys doth Tyndall after Luther conclude for a playn mater that prestys must nedys haue wy●es and that saynt Poule wold there shold in no wyse be none other prestys but maryed folke Is yt not now a wōder wyth what spectacles Luther and Tyndall haue spyed thys thynge now in these wordys of saynt Powle In whyche of so many grete connyng●●●thers and holy sayntys as haue often redde and depely cōsydered those wordys before there was neuer none that had eyther the wytte or the grace to ꝑceyue that grete specyal cōmaundemēt thys .xv. C. yere tyll now the god hathe at last by reuelacyō shewed thys hygh secrete mystery to these .ii. goodly creatures Luther and Tyndall leste that holy frere shold haue lost his maryage of that holy nonne and Tyndall some good maryage that I thynke hym towarde Tyndal nothing answereth in his boke to that poynt but rōneth and rayleth ouer wythout reson and sayth that the scrypture ys playne therin for hym And euer he passeth ouer as thouh he herd it not that al the holy doctours that euer were in Crystꝭ chyrch sayen that the scrypture whych he alledgeth to be very playn for him is very playn agaynst hym as it is in dede For saynt poule in that place for as mych as yet at that tyme excepte none but yong mē shold haue bē prestꝭ which he thought not comenly conuenyent ellys coulde they make no prestys then but suche as eyther were or had ben maryed therfore thappostle hauing in the choyse of prestys a specyall respecte to chastyte and wyllyng to go as ●ere to no wyfe as myght be dyd ordayne as god had instructed hym that who so euer shold be admytted to presth●d sholde be the husband of one wyfe Meanyng suche as then had or byfore had had no mo but one that neuer had had twayn He meaned not as mad Luther Tyndall wold now make the world so ●●d to byleue that a prest must nedys ha●e one nor that he may neuer lac●e one nor that he may haue one after a nothe● ●or the onely forbyddyn● of twain at onys but he ment only that non shold be admytted to presthed but onely such a man as neuer had had nor shold haue but onely one whyche ys the thynge that euer was hath bene by those wordys vnderstanden And not onely where saynt Powle taught but also thorow crystendome where the other apostles planted the fayth hath yt euer ben so obserued Whych is a playne profe that concernynge the prohybycyon of eny mo wyuys then one and the forbydi●g of bygamy by the weddyng of one wyfe after a nother was the specyall ordynaunce of god and of saynt Powle whose epystles wherin he wryteth eny thynge of thys mater was peraduenture not comen to the handys of other apostles whan they toke yet the same order by the same spyryte that taught yt hym For thys is certayn that euer euery where in crystendom the bygamy of two wyues eche after other hath ben a let and impedyment agaynst the the takynge of holy orders and hath of long tyme ben a let though the ●one wyfe had ben maryed and buryed byfore the mannys baptysme And nowe these two wyse men agaynst the olde holy fathers and connyng doctours agaynst the cōtynuall custume of Crystꝭ chyrch so many hūdred yeres bygōne and contynued by the spyryte of god haue spyed at last the saynt Powle sayth and meaneth that a preste maye marye ●wyse haue one wyfe after a nother and that he must so haue For by Tyndall a prest must euer haue one wyfe at the lest And surely yf we leue the trew vnd●●standyng of saynt Powlys wordꝭ and byleue Tyndall that yt ys there ment and comaunded bycause of thys worde 〈◊〉 that a prest muste haue one then may Tyndall as for the place tell vs that a prest ys at lybertye to haue twayne at onys or twentye and he wyll bycawse saynt Powle saythe no more but that the bysshop muste be the husband of one wyfe Whych wordys Tyndall maye tell vs be veryfyed yf he be the husbād of .x. wyuys For the husbād of .x. wyuys were the husbād of one as the father of ten chyldren is the father of one yf the wyuys were as cōpatyble as the chyldrē be as it is no dout but Luther and Tyndall wold sone make thē by scrypture yf theyr owne interpetacyō may be taken for authoryte agaīst the perceyuing that god hath gyuen to all good crysten people this .xv. C. yere Now as I say vppō Tyndals takyng saīt Poule shold men●● not that a preste sholde haue b●t one wyfe for that but is not ●●aīt Powlꝭ wo●dꝭ but he sholde mene that a preste muste haue one at the le●●e as though saīt Poule had leuer that the preste had .xx. sa●e for ouercharging Yet yt semeth that Tyndall so take yt in dede and that a preste might haue dyuers wyues at onys specyally for the grete reason that he setteth therto For where as saynt Poule syth there was at that ●yme lytel choyse to make prestꝭ of but maryed men wylled therfore that in the choyse of the bysshoppe there shold be consydered howe he had gouerned hys owne howsehold bycause he that had mystatched his wyfe and hys chyldren were vnmete for a gret cure therfore sayth Tyndal that neuer shold ther eny prest be made but but such as hath a wyfe and chyldren by the gouernaunce of theym shewed that he is mete to bere a rule as thoughe we neuer saw eny man that neuer had wyfe gouerne an housholde better th●̄ many that