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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A19164	The attestation of the most excellent, and most illustrious lord, Don Carlos Coloma, embassadour extraordinary for Spayne. Of the declaration made vnto him, by the lay Catholikes of England concerning the authority challenged ouer them, by the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon. With The answere of a Catholike lay gentleman, to the iudgment of a deuine, vpon the letter of the lay Catholikes, to the sayd Lord Bishop of Chalcedon.	Coloma, Carlos, 1573-1637.; Baltimore, George Calvert, Baron, 1580?-1632. Answere of a Catholike lay gentleman to the judgement of a devine. aut	1631 (1631)	STC 5576; ESTC S117323	60,660	174

of the questions in controuersy between vs my Lord Bishop of Chalcedon touching the pretended Authority and iurisdiction chalenged by his Lordship ouer vs which that it might the more plainly appeare we iudged it not only expedient but also necessary to declare our minds by this way course that we haue taken THE ATTESTATION I IOHN Mallery Gentleman do witnes and testify that I was present at London in the House of the most Excellent most Illustrious Lord Don Carlos Coloma extraordinary Embassadour for the King of Spaine the 3. day of March 1631. stylo nouo when as sundry Catholike Noblemen and others of quality there present did produce written in latin the Declaration Reasons and Letter heere aboue set downe All which being distinctly pronounced in presence of the forsayd Embassadour and all and euery thing therein expressed for as much as belongeth to the Cōtrouersy concerning the pretēded Authority of the Right Reuerēd Lord Bishop of Chalcedon ouer the Lay Catholikes of England the forsayd Gentlemen and Noblemen declaredfully and perfectly to conteyne the sense and meaning not only of themselues there present but in effect of all others whome they knew and namely of many Earles Vicounts Barons other men of Quality whome they named vnto the sayd Embassadour And they declared themselues to notify vnto him the mynd and sense of them all to be fully expressed in the sayd Declaration Reasōs Letter and that they had receaued full power Authority from them so to do And the Embassadour himselfe did then openly professe to haue vnderstood the same things from many of those Lay Catholikes whome they had named nor did he doubt at all of the truth of the whole matter which he tooke vpon him as they requested to make publicke Iohn Mallery THE aboue named Iohn Mallery Gentleman of the English Nation appearing personally before the Maior Magistrates and Griffiers of the Citty and Territory of Saint Winocks-Berge in the West-County of Flanders did vpon Oath affirme the things aforesayd and in testimony thereof in our presence subscribed signed the same In Witnes whereof we appointed the Seale vsed in Causes of our forsayd Citty and Territory to be set vnto this present Writing and to be subscribed by the Griffier our Notary This 15. day of March 1631. Locus ✚ Sigilli Joannes Hardunius THE ATTESTATION Of the most Excellent and most Illustrious Lord Don Carlos Coloma D. Carlos Coloma Knight of the Military Order of S. Iames Commendador of Montyelo Ossa of the Counsell of State and Warre to his Sacred Catholike Maiesty Captaine Generall of his Armyes in the Low Countreys c. We do witnesse and testify whilst of late we resided as Embassadour Extraordinary in the Court of the Renowned King of Great Brittaine the forsaid Declaration to haue byn exhibited vnto vs in our House at Londō the 3. day of March of this present yeare 1631. by many lay Catholikes of chiefe rāke in their Countrey and the same to haue byn approued and confirmed by diuers English Noblemen by word of mouth as well in their owne as in the Name of others in which respect we ratify the Attestation of M. Iohn Mallery an English Gentleman added vnto the end of the said Declaratiō being in like māner also authentically confirmed by the Magistrate of S. Winocks-Berge in witnesse of the truth of all and euery the premises as they were done we haue heereunto put our hand and seale Giuen at Bruxells the 2. day of April in the yeare of our Lord 1631. Don Carlos Coloma Locus ✚ Sigilli By Command of my most Excellent Lord. Fran. Schelen Printed at Bruxells by the widdow of Hubert Antony sworne Printer at the signe of the Golden Eagle neere to the Pallace M. DC XXXI THE ANSVVERE OF A CATHOLIKE LAY GENTLEMAN To the Iudgement of a Deuine vpon the Letter of the Lay Catholikes to my Lord Bishop of Chalcedon By L. B. Anno M. DC XXXI THE PREFACE to the Reader GENTLE READER Lighting of late vpon a litle writtē Treatise intituled The Iudgmēt of a Deuine vpō the 3. Gentlemens Letter to my Lord Bishop of Chalcedon I tooke and read it thinking to find somewhat more then Ordinary in it For hauing heard much talke of that matter being now in euery mans mouth seene also something written but not to much purpose now finding a Booke with the Title of a Deuine I presumed he would say something more then others had done But whē I came to read him I found him but like other men of his owne syde and particulerly so like the Lay Gentleman T. M. his Iudgement vpon the same Letter that I began to thinke it might be the very same man the style discourse and as I may say spirit wherewith both are written being the same And that because then that seeming to be but some Lay Gentlemans doing men made small account of it not vouchsafing it so much as one word of answere Now the same party would speake a little lowder to be heard writing ouer the same somewhat more dilatedly and inserting a little Latin in some places and taking vpon him the person of a Deuine for the substance of both is the same and accusing worthy Catholique Gentlemen of Passion Temerity Pretense of daunger Partiality to Regulars want of respect to Episcopal Authority and the like and all this vttered with so litle reason truth on the one side and so much gall and bitternes on the other as that I could not but be sorry and ashamed to see such a thing with the Title of a Deuine For if such manner of writing ill be seeme any Christian mā how much worse a Deuine who is to be a light of the world teaching men sobriety and temper by word and example hauing truth and reason with him in what he sayth and writeth and deliuering it in such sort as the manner may not betray the matter by shewing any distempered affection For euen that will much derogate from his writing though what he writeth should otherwise be true For euery man knoweth what a myst Passion is wont to cast before mens eyes and how hard it is for a passionate man to speake truth and nothing but truth And this is so much more daungerous where it concerneth the credit reputation of other men which how nice a point it is and how soone how grieuously a man may offend in it no Deuine can be ignorant and especially when the party discouereth but so much of himselfe as may gayne himselfe credit and thereby giue more force to the slaunder or imputation as the wryter doth stiling himselfe Deuine and on the other syde so concealing his particuler person that the partyes grieued know not of whome to complayne nor where to haue remedy And whereas it was to be expected of a Deuine that he should handle the matter substantially and solidly I found no such thing heere but euen the very mayne Question

that put men vpon a greater necessity of reply As for that which he sayth that they seemed desirous he should declare himselfe Ordinary it is playne they desyred it not but the cleane contrary But whatsoeuer it was that he pretended they desyred to know it The fifth reason is That the Bishop euer since his comming auouched himselfe Ordinary and till the matter of approbation of Regulars his Ordinaryship was not questioned nor daunger pretended whereof he sayth they cannot deny but they had some priuity I answere that heere againe the Deuine forgetteth himselfe for he was angry before with Catholiques for vnderstanding the Bishops owne words in his Letter so plainly of his Ordinaryship and yet he would haue them take notice of ordinary vncertayne reports It is true therefore that they heard sometymes speaches as if he were Ordinary but they made not much account of them for his predecessour was sometymes sayd to be Ordinary also and yet he neuer pretended any Authority ouer them that they could heare But when they heard of many things which his Lordships Officers did and of peremptory and Authoritatiue Letters which they writ with the Iudicatiue manner of proceeding of some Rurall Deanes and saw the very Patents or Letters of institution of Archdeacons playnely signifying the same then they beganne to looke about them and to enquire a litle more of that Ordinaryshippe what it meant and whether my Lord of Chalcedon tooke himself to haue the same power which Bishops had heretofore in Catholique tymes and so sent to his Lordship to know it from himselfe so that all this while they had no priuity of it nor after till his Lordship published it by his Letter The 6. reason They gaue this Letter to be sent to Rome and as some say saith he long before they sent it to the Bishop and desired the Bishop that it might be knowne abroad Now to what end was it sent to Rome and desired to be sent abroad if it were made only for the state I answere that the Deuine with his as some say is egregiously mistaken in saying the Letter was sent to Rome before it was sent to the Bishop for there be others that know better then all his some sayes if there be any besides himself which auerre the contrary Now for the demaund why it was sent to Rome and desired to be sent abroad if it were onely made for the State I demaund againe where he findeth that it was made onely for the state If he meane that the chiefe reason of writing it was to declare the dangers inconueniences which might fall vpon them from the state by acknowledgment and admittance of his Lordships pretended Authority it is true but that is not all one as to say that it was made onely for the state For it was made principally for his Lordship for those of whome his power and the enlarging and diminishing therof doth depend to see that considering the daungers and inconueniences both his Lordship might please to desist from such pretensions others forbeare to graunt such power as was so daungerous and so peiudiciall to Catholiques Now what inconsequence was there in this to desire his Lordship to make it knowne abroad or fearing with themselues for they expressed no such feare to him that he would not they sent it by some other meanes What a doughty reason then is this to proue the Catholiques cause to be pretended and feigned The 7. reason When Father Campian came in and made publique chalenge of disputation in print and proclamations were made agaynst him what Catholique did publiquely disauowe him or his Authority or faculties My answere to this is that I see not what there is to answere for what likenes can there be imagined in this argument saue onely the publiquenesse of Father Campians challenge of disputation and the publiquenesse of my Lord Bishops clayme of Authority Which if it be sufficient then I will make the Deuines argument a little better for him by asking why Catholikes do not disauow al Letters or Breues of the Sea Apostolike nay al bookes written of Controuersies in defence of the Catholique Fayth for these are publique Now I assure my selfe there is no Deuine in the world so dull but can easily find a great deale of difference betweene these two last and my Lord Bishops Letter though one be much more like the instance of Father Campians challenge But because the Deuine perhaps will not be willing to find a difference I will do it for him It was not Father Campians doing nor meaning to publish any such challenge but made two Copies of his writing one to haue about himselfe in case he should be taken suddenly before he should haue time to do any thing of what he came for and another in a freinds hand with order to publish it when he should be taken if by chaunce as it was most like his aduersaries should suppresse that which he should haue about him But his friend not obseruing this order goeth and publisheth it of himself So the publishing was not his doing Besides it was a particular acte which concerned himselfe only without relation to Catholiques no matter of Authority or iurisdiction eyther in foro externo or interno but a necessary defence of the Catholique fayth at that tyme no exercise so much as of Priestly function but a thing which any Layman for the thing it self might do What need then of disauowing his Authority or Faculties for that matter Now my Lord Bishops Letter was intended to be publique as being written to Catholiques so that they could not but know of it hauing also for the matter particuler relation to them the subiect of the Letter an authority of an outward Court or Tribunall not necessary at this time nor conuenient for the defence or propagation of the Catholique faith but offensiue to the State dangerous to Catholiques as being contrary to the auncient and moderne lawes grieuous in regard of many inconueniences which it bringeth with it and the very knowledge much more admittance wherof bringeth daunger What then doth this Deuine talke of disauowing Authority facultyes such as Fa. Campian had as if any mā denied them to my Lord Bishop No no man denieth or disauoweth thē or any thing else of my Lord Bishops but only they desire not to be pressed to the admittance of that Authority of Ordinary which without any furtherance or any the least necessity of their spirituall good may bring many temporall daūgers vpon thē put them into more straites then they haue beene this time of persecution Which truly is but a very ordinary and reasonable request There is no affinity therefore betweene my Lord Bishops claime of Authority and F. Campians challenge of Disputation The eight reason It is more notorious that there are many hundred of Priests then one Bishop and more seuere lawes against any priuity or participatiō with them then for the Bishop and yet these

men sayth he make no publique disauow of Priests Authority nor account thēselues vnsafe for hauing beene so long silent I answere that the reason is idle Suppose there were as many thousands of Priests as there are hundreds nay if there were as many Bishop as there are Priests if they had not the power of Ordinary what were that to our purpose the question being of an Ordinary with power in foro externo Now for the daunger of a Priest or Bishop whether greater is impertinent as long as the one is necessary the other not Besides that such Bishoply Authority with the daungers and incōueniences proper to it selfe bringeth with it the daūgers of Priestly Authority The Deuine could not but know thus much of himselfe and yet he must put downe this reason to make number The ninth reason None but these 3. and some few of their adherents apprehend this daunger of being silent touching the Bishops Authority yet many haue more to loose then they a Noble man tould them by publique Letter that Timebant vbi non erat timor I answere for the number and worth of the Persons that apprehend this daunger there is enough sayd before the thing is so well knowne that surely this Deuine would not haue ventured his credit by speaking so apparent an vntruth but that he concealed his name For the Noble mans saying I answere it with the wisemans saying sapiens timet declinat à malo stultus transilit confidit The wiseman feareth and auoydeth euill the foole leapeth ouer and consideth The 10. reason The Monkes made clayme of a farre greater Authority and farre more daungerous to the Laity and in a more publique māner by many printed copyes and yet these men do not go about to disauowe the same publiquely I answere that till my Lord Bishops Letter no man heard of any such matter from the Benedictines or any else Therefore if there were any daunger in their clayme we may plainly thanke my Lord Bishops Letter as the cause thereof Secondly the same Letter wherby the Catholiques desired to be excused from my Lord of Chalcedons Ordinaryship is sufficient against that or any other booke that shal clayme such Authority as things stand heere in England and therefore there needeth no other disclayming Now for their claime I do not see that for the present they exact any such matter of subiection from Catholiques but only say they keepe a kind of possession of their ancient right against the tyme shal serue for it and that if they would stand vpon it they might better do it then my Lord of Chalcedon Now what offence or daunger is this to Catholiques And for the publiquenesse the book is printed indeed but no way directed to Catholiques but to their owne Religious But this Deuine that in this place thinketh much that mē do not disauow this Booke I presume was priuy to another Paper deliuered vp at Rome wherein it was sayd that the Layty were much offended at such a vast claime how do these hang together But that was for the purpose in that place this it seemeth in this and he perhaps thought the same man should neuer come to see both the papers But as close as that and such like papers are carried by this Deuine his friends they come to light one way or other little to their credit that care so little for truth in what they say The last reason is deliuered by the Deuine in these words Lastly what needed they to haue incēsed the state against the Bishop therefore these pretences are ad excusandas excusationes in peccati● whereas the true cause was to help some Regulars to banish Episcopall power out of England This is the Deuines Conclusiō Whereto I answere that for a conclusion I did expect a concluding reason but it is so farre from concluding that I see no shew of reason For how doth the asking of this question what they needed to incense the State against the Bishop proue that the cause of writing their letter was pretended The Deuine might haue made this a motiue which might haue moued them not to write their Letter to the Bishop in that manner but to make it an argument to proue that their pretence was faygned I see not with what Logick it can stand But now for the matter it is a strange thing that a Deuine should haue no more scruple then to charge mē of knowne vertue and wisedome with incensing the State against the Bishop Were it not more time for him to study his cases examine well his Consciēce then to stand censuring men so deeply and so iniuriously What do they say tending this way That the erecting of a new tribunall will moue the State to a more exact search c For this I haue answered before and shewed that this is sayd to the cleane contrary end to wit to decline the Search and Persecution which his Lordships clayme would bring vpon himself and others and by their saying to appease that which his Lordships doing would incense Which if it seeme preiudiciall vnto him is wholy besydes their meaning and he may th●nke himselfe for it For they in this do but defend themselues cum moderamine inculpatae tutclae Therefore to answere this Deuines applied place of Scripture of excuses in sinnes I may now aske him in behalfe of these Gentlemen and all others whose letter it was Quis ex vobis arguet 〈◊〉 de peccato St malè locutus sum testimonium perhibe de malo Si autem benè quid ●ecaedis Who of you will accuse me of sinne If I haue spoken ill beare witnesse of the ill but if well why dost thou strike me And for the last word of all that the true cause was to help some Regulars to banish Episcopall power out of England being but a bitter gal belike of a distempred stomack to end withall and deseruing rather pitty then answere I let it alone wishing this Deuine the same measure of Charity which he desireth of Authority both for his owne good and the quiet of others boing more his friend therein then himselfe AN ADVERTISEMENT GOod Reader This Treatise was written two yeares ago whē the forsayd Iudgment of this Deuine began to go vp downe but that other Bookes cōming then out and ministring other occasion of Discourse the Author thought better to let it alone as he would haue done wholy but that now of late the same Letter of the Catholiques being a new published with A Declaration to the same effect some of the other side began to repeate their former vngrounded Discourses For rectifying whereof and stating the Question aright the Author hath thought fit now to publish the same FINIS Initio Aug. 1627. Anno 1627. Nauar. apud Tol. lib. ● c. ●0 〈…〉