is not the very naturall bodie of Christ as it is cōmunely called yet he doth well to make a profe of the trewthe therof for the vnlerned sake to whom it is otherwise or not so well knowne Capitulo 8. CATH Then yet thirdly we must all acknowlage once againe that it is harde to saie whether he be herein more foolishe or false For plaine it is that here he doothe promise one thynge and clene omittyng the same gothe aboute to performe an other HERE How so CATH Dooest thou not see it plaine that he dooeth here promise to proue that the sacrament is not the naturall bodie of Christe And for the performance therof doost thou not see againe that he goeth a bowte to proue that the naturall bodie of Christe is not in the sacrament As though it were all one to saie that the sacrament is not the naturall bodie of Christe and to saie that the naturall bodie of Christe is not in the sacrament Euen as I might saie thy sowle is not thy bodie and for to make the beleue the same goe aboute to proue that thy sowle is not in thy bodie as though to be and to be in were all one that is to saie as though to be the howse and to be in the howse were without any difference Therfore because Frith in diuers places of his booke doubtyng of mens sightes dooth saie in the fourthe lefe this might expounde our matter if men had eies to see other he him selfe had eies to see this muche as I saie or els he had not If he had not but spake blyndly he wiste nere what how foolishe dooth he apere If he had and saw what he did how plaine false dooth he shewe hym selfe whiche is farre wors wherfore sith his posicion and his probacion are here of such a degeneracion that thei are without all possibilitee of any agrement to gether let vs therfore helpe hym to change his posicion and frame it somewhat acordyng to the pretence of his probacion to see what it will proue then because it is nothyng to the purpose now HERE How shall we dooe that CATH Thou seest his posicion in effect is this that the sacrament is not the naturall bodie of Christe And his pretēded probacion rēneth not vpon that but vpon this that Christes naturall bodie is not in the sacrament Therfore let his posicion be euen so to see whether his pretended probacion will reache vnto that or no. HE. Yes I doubt not therof CA. Whether thou do or not yet we must all acknowlage once againe as it dooth plainly apere that he hath in this pretended probacion brought for him none authoritee of holy scripture none of olde holy doctors nor yet so muche as any one sparke of reson or truth other For all his great pretence of defēdyng him selfe by those three authoritees as it apereth in the thirde and fourtenth lefe of his booke if thou markeit well HERE Yes syr very good reason he bringeth here for he saith If I shoulde beleue that his very naturall bodie bothe fleshe and blude were naturally in the bread and wyne that shuld not saue me seeynge many beleue that and receiue it to ther damnacion How saie ye nowe CATH If thou call this good reason thou haste but a little witte For beside that he doothe here call it breade and wyne of a spite against the contrarie as though it were breade and wyne in dede whiche is most false as hereafter it shall well apere And beside his foolishe speakynge in this that he saithe If I shulde beleue that his very naturall bodie were naturally therin as who saie because we doe beleue that Christes very lyuely bodie is presently and verely in the sacrament we beleue it to bee therin naturally when we dooe not beleue it to be so in heauen And yet we beleue it to bee verely there in dede for all that But this man dooeth speake as though it were alwaie a generall rule that where so euer any thynge is presently it wer there also naturally As who saie when an arowe is shotte vp in to the aire it were there naturally or a bladder blowen full of aire and conueied by violence downe to the botome of the water it were there naturally Or as who saie when god toke Helias from the societee and companie of mortall men and did lifte hym vp into heauen he passyng through the aire was there aboue naturally Besyde I saie all this very false foolishe and nothyng to the purpose what is there in it els whiche doothe proue it none article of our feith that we are bownde to beleue For there aboute he goeth HERE That many beleue it he saith and receiue it to their damnacion CATH What meaneth he by that are we not bounde to beleue it because thei beleue it HERE Naie not therfore ▪ CATH What then Because thei receiue it HERE No nother CATH Then is it because thei beleue it and receiue it to HERE He meaneth not so nother CATH How then HERE As Paule saieth He that eateth and drynketh it vnworthily doothe eate and drynke his owne damnacion CATH A then he groundeth hym selfe herein vpon saynt Paule HERE What els CATH In dede it were els but euen his own dreame as I wene we shall fynde it neuertheles Therfore if the cause why that we are not bounde to beleue it be nother because thei beleue it Nor because thei receiue it nor yet because thei beleue it and receiue it bothe but because of that whiche foloweth that is to saie to their damnacion Then why is it to their damnacion HERE For their vnworthinesse CATH Therfore when Frithes reason is either nothyng or els this that we are not bounde to beleue it because many receiue it to their damnacion And thei receiue it not to their damnacion but because of their vnworthinesse how clerely doothe it folowe that their vnworthines is the cause why by his reason that we are not bound to beleue it And how madde a witte hath he whiche will thynke that any other mennes vnworthines can set vs of or on with the bonde of our belefe in any poynte of our feithe Capitulo 9. HERE Sir yet ye take him wronge still For he doth not mene that their beleuing or vnworthy receiuing of it to their damnacion is the cause why that we are not bounde to beleue it CA. How then HERE He dooth mene no more but that it dooeth shewe that we are not bound to beleue it CATH Aha then it is come from a prouing to a shewing and that full wise for that they dooe beleue it doeth rather shewe that we be bounde to dooe so to rather then the contrarie HERE What when they receiue it to their damnacion CATH Yea for all that for why dooe they receyue it to their damnacion because they beleue it HERE Nay that is not his minde nother for then he wolde not haue saied we are not bounde to beleue it
we do not so beleue Those .xii. onely be necessarie saith he This veritee thou seest is none of them although as all other it maie bee reduced vnto them whiche he will none of in any case lest that whiche he laboureth to ouerthrowe shoulde so by that meanes bee brought in likewise after his minde therfore without this we maie be saued That is to wit without the belefe that the commaundementê of god be good or ought to be obserued kepte who will not see that this were enough to declare what a teacher he is or who hath so dull a wit that he can not perceiue how diuelish his purpose is and it were but only by this that he can finde no waie to come to it but only by such damnable pathes as this is Beholde how faine he wold proue it no nede so to beleue in the blessed sacrament of the alter as all trew Christen people beleueth In very dede so faine that to bryng it to passe with al he sticketh not here as thou seest thy selfe to leue vs clene without the nede of any and of all the veritees of holy scripture mo then bare .xii. for in those .xii. veritees of our Crede he thought surely that this veritee of the blessed sacrament could not be founde And therfore he dooth saie that thei onely are necessarie vnto saluacion to thintent he might vtterly therby exclude the nede of this whiche he wolde so cleane put awaie that euen for that cause he excludeth no lesse then all the reste saiynge The other pointes conteined in scripture although thei be vndoubted veritees yet maie I bee saued without them And this he declareth in euery condicion that is to saie whether he beleue them or not whether he vnderstande them or not and whether he misconstrew them or not All these I saie saith he maie be doone without any ieoperdie of damnacion Cap. 23. HERE Ye but sir ye must take his conclusion with all CATH What is that HERE Marie this Therfore we beleue he saith these articles of our Crede in the other is no perill so that we haue a probable reason to dissent from them CATH Doubtles a conclusion euen like hym selfe How be it I muse not so muche therat nor yet at hym nother as I dooe euen at thee HERE At me why so CATH Without faile because thou dooest no more wonder at his blynde madnesse or madde blyndenesse choose thee whether How bee it I dooe partely consider the cause For surely if thou thy selfe were not by hym somewhat combred with the same clowde of darkenesse wherin he was inuolued and wrapped hym selfe thou shouldest easely besyde his wily wickednesse perceiue hym tumbled into the greattest foolishnesse that euer thou sawest any man For wheÌ„ he saith in the other is no perill so that we haue a probable reason to dissent from theÌ„ maie not I sai O folish Frith what if we haue none nor none can haue how then how is it possible to haue any probable reson to dissent froÌ„ any veritees most special aboue al froÌ„ any veritees of holy scripture For what reason is there probable in dede but onely that whiche is trewe in dede and can any one trewth be against an other Therfore if thou marke this matter well thou shalt finde that by these wordes he setteth vs euen at as muche libertee with our feith in all the .xii. veritees of our Crede as he doth in all the other For in them is no perill nother so that we haue a probable reason to dissent from them HERE Why sir we maie not dissent from them in no wise CATH What not with a probable reason what thynge is there that a probable reason dooth not bynde me to dooe For what is a probable reason but that whiche maie iustly be proued to be trewe And shall not trewth leade me trewly to and fro in euery condiâ—ion HERE Ye but there can be no suche probable reason to leade as from those veritees of our Crede CATH Why not from them as well as from the other veritees of scripture beside bee thei more trewe then any of the other are How be it thow speakest this of thine own head For Frith saith no more but that we maie dissent from all the veritees of scripture saue .xii. so that we haue a probable reason therto And I saie the same by that reason of those xii also if we haue a probable reason therto For what ought I to refraine whiche a probable reason will leade me vnto am I not alwaie bownde vnto trewth and what other thing is a probable reason Therfore it must nedes folow by his reason that in these veritees of our Crede is no perill so that we haue a probable reason to dissent from them Thus taketh he from vs the nede of all the veritees of scripture saue .xii. so that by the same reason he taketh awaie the nede of them to And therfore he semeth to except them in woordes but not in dede HERE Yes sir for els he wold not saie this Those articles are onely necessarie vnto saluacion For them am I bound to beleue and am damned without excuse if I beleue them not CATH What of this thou thinkest by reason of these wordes that he goth about to make vs beleue that we be bounde to the veritees of our Creede HERE what els For what purpose shoulde he speake it but for that or to shew vs how he doth beleue them him selfe CA. I thought euen as much when he intendeth none of them both For his purpose is not to make vs beleue them but onely to make vs to beleue no moe For to go about to make vs beleue so much is one thinge and to go about to make vs beleue no more is an other thing Therfore his intent is as who saie there to stoppe in our feith that it shulde goe no farther and not to bringe it thether nor there to vpholde it For although his blindnesse be so great and manifest that euen the very same which he laboureth to improue and ouerthrow he confesseth to be a veritee of scripture or els wolde he neuer cal it an article of our feith as in the .xvi. lefe of his booke he dooth in deede saiyng these wordes For though it be an article of our feith yet it is not an article of our Creede in the .xii. articles whiche are sufficient for our saluacion Although his blindnesse I say be so great that he him selfe dooeth confesse this a veritee of scripture which he laboreth so sore to improue yet because he thought it coulde not be found among the .xii. veritees of our Crede euen therfore wolde the catchpoule as it were in a pinfolde pyn vp therin our feith from all the veritees of scripture beside and all to thintent it shulde not come at this veritee of the holy sacrament and that for the speciall hatred he beareth vnto it Howe bee it in so saiyng I confesse my selfe somewhat
nowe Cap. 25. CATH Tawnte or tawnte not thou shalt neuer fynde how he can otherwise ioigne them together when thou haste all doone And therfore as a man so trowbled and tyred with this case of his owne that he woteth nere whiche waie to turne hym he geueth it ouer quite and falleth to an other matter euen with these woordes But nowe to returne he saith to our purpose if we will examine the authoritees of saint Austen Beda before alleged we shall espie that beside the probacion of this foresaide proposicion thei open the misterie of all our matter to them that haue eien to see Those he meaneth whiche are as blynde as he For saint Austen saith saith he that we and the olde fathers dooe differ as touchynge the bodily meate For thei eate manna and we breadde Now countreiman because thou didst after his allegacion recite the woordes of saint Austen vnto me thy selfe I praie thee hertily therfore remembre them well and tell me trewly whether saint Austen spake there so muche as any woorde of bread as this felow dooth now reporte hym HERE Sir therin to confesse the trewth saint Austen saith that the fathers did eate manna and we an other thynge But in dede he hath not there this same woorde bread CATH Thou maiest see therfore what a iuste parte gentle Frieth plaith herein with saint Austen He thought this woorde bread wolde sownde somewhat more for his purpose then this woorde an other thyng whiche in dede soundeth towarde it nothyng at all And therfore in the stede therof in with breade he cometh but not by and by immediatly after he reherseth the woordes of saint Austen but longe after For had he brought it in streight waie while the woordes of saint Austen were in the minde of the reader he wist wel enough it wolde then be soone perceiued and taken not like a pointe of falshed but euen as it is for very one and the selfe same in dede and therfore he falleth first in to a longe bablyng of his owne phantasticall inuencion And afterwarde when he supposeth the wordes of saint Austen somewhat growne out of remembraunce with the reader Then in cometh the baker with his mustie bread And that he dooth only euen of his owne head without cause or requeste made of any man But onely in liyng to shew what he can wherfore in fewe woordes by my very assent He shall for his great labour be this content what so euer other men saie or will thinke To take his bread with hym and goe ere he drinke HERE What sir me thinke ye fall to rymyng againe CATH In very dede if thou were so able to weigh and consider how wylie and foolishe his falshed is as some men are and doth in dede I doubte not but thou woldest saie thy selfe that rimynge onely were good enough for hym although it were as it is not here without bothe reason and trewthe For he that vseth where alwaie two of them ought to be nothyng els but falshed in dede Is not euen the least of them three more then enough and to good for hym How false dooth he apere once againe in this reporte that he maketh here nowe of saint Austen For coulde not saint Austen hym selfe haue put in this woorde bread as well as this woorde an other thynge if he had so ment or had not seene some good cause to the contrarie was his minde so occupied in treatynge only of this matter that he had forgotten the proper name of bread whiche was moste present redie and apte to be thought vpon in this case or coulde he not call that woorde to remembrance because it was so strange and farre out of vse He sticketh not at manna but directly expresseth it with the proper name therof why staieth he at this woorde bread more then at that was it more strange and farder out of vse then the manna was why dooeth he touche this with no proper name but with a woorde commune and indifferent in maner to all thynges wolde he refraine so redy a thynge and see no cause why if he sawe any what was that Frith will not put that in question vnto vs he wolde not here of it he had leuer haue vs forget it it maketh not for his purpose as hereafter it shal well apere HERE Yet sir in some other places seint Austen hym selfe dooth call it bread plainly CA. Why therfore dooth Frith allege him so here where he dooth not so cal it will not allege hym there where he doth call it so what meneth he by that doth it signifie nothyng I wil wel that saint Austen so doth call it that diuers times but yet neuer without suche a certaine conuenient circumstance with all as declareth what he meaneth by it whiche circumstance Frith perceiueth to make no lesse agaynst hym then this woorde breade semeth to sownde with hym And therfore because the woorde and that circumstance he can not fynde in saint Austen asonder he therfore hym selfe wolde plante the one in some other corner alone as thou seest hym here this craftily assaie where he dooeth knowe that circumstance to bee awaie And therfore this hast thou herde a great parte of the very thynge I maie saie vnto thee whiche as he saith dooeth open the misterie of all his matter to them that haue eien to see Although he meaneth but those as I tolde thee before whiche are as blinde as he wherfore hast thou not nowe euen more then enough to perceiue what a goodly foundacion of his this is to builde any good woorke vpon Cap. 26. HERE To saie the trewthe if it be no better then ye make it he hath not leide it so depely as I thought he had done CATH Naie saie not so for he hath leide it no lesse depe I maie saie to thee then euen downe to the diuell hym selfe And therfore fynde thou no lacke in the depenesse therof for deper could no man laie it in dede then he hath done And yet not withstandynge that and all that I haue declared therof beside Beholde how he glorieth therin and what a face he setteth vpon it as though there were no suche matter at all for in his preface and firste lefe of his booke where he speaketh of his first treatise whiche he wrote in hucker-mucker and not as he confesseth hym selfe to be published abrode he hath these woordes But nowe it is commune he saith abrode in many mens mowthes in so muche that maister Moore whiche of late hath busied him selfe to meddle in al such matters of what zeale I will not difine hath sore laboured to confute it but some men thinke that he is ashamed of his parte And a little after he addeth vnto it these woordes But this I am right sure of that he neuer towched the foundacion that my treatise was builded vpon And therfore sith my foundacion standeth so sure and inuinsible for els I thinke verely he wolde sore haue