AN ANSWERE TO MASTER IOHN DE ALBINES NOTABLE DISCOVRSE AGAINST heresies as his frendes call his booke compiled by THOMAS SPARK pastor of Blechley in the County of Buck. And I heard a voice from heauen saying Come out of her my people that yee be not partakers of her sinnes and that yee receaue not of her plagues Revelat. 18. vers 4. Put your selues in aray against Babylon rounde about all yee that bende the bowe shoote at her spare no arrowes for shee hath sinned against the Lord. Ierem. 50. vers 14. ACADEMIA OXONIENSIS SAPIENTIAE ET FELICITATIS Printed at Oxforde by IOSEPH BARNES Printer to the Vniversitie 1591. TO THE RIGHT HONOVRABLE ARTHVRE LORD GREY OF WILTON Knight of the most honourable order of the Garter his especiall good Lord and Patrone Thomas Sparke Wisheth all good perseuerance in Christian courage and constancy in the profession and furtherance of Gods sincere truth with all other ornaments of true nobility to Gods glorie our comfort and his owne heart good contentation nowe and euer ALthough Right Honourable when I had first perused this treatise of Iohn de Albines I foūd it thorow out a most bitter inuectiue a malitious declamation written onely of purpose to deface disgrace amongst the simple both our religion the ministers professors thereof yet finding withal as I did as anie indifferent man that reads it shal that neither for matter nor manner of writing there is any newe thing of any importance in it which hath not beene before euer this discourse of his sawe the light oftē that far more substantially vrged by some other of that side therefore which hath not also heretofore been as oftē fully effectually answered by some or other of ours I not only iudged this to be the reason when it hauing now been amōgst vs in english these 16. or 17. yeares none hitherto had vouchsafed it any further particular answere but also though vrged as your Honour knoweth to frame vnto it a speciall direct answere I could yet hardly be brought to thinke it necessary so basely I esteemed of it to aford it any other answere then either a fewe marginal notes that whē I first red it I bestowed vpō it or frō point to point as it were in a table to haue shewed the reader where and by whom he might read the same thing long ago often obiected on the one side answered by the other which might haue bene in one sheet of paper very well dispatched Howbeit in the end calling to minde what your Lordship tolde me concerning the opinion that our poore seduced cuntrimen seeme secretly to haue amōgst thēselues of it as you learned by one of their owne speeches had thereof vnto your selfe in acquainting you first with the booke and marking how not onely by publishing it in english but also by entitling it both in the forhead ouer euery leafe a notable discourse against heresies they themselues haue plainely shewed that they haue it in no base account finding it also since to be the iudgement of a certaine learned man of auncient and long experience euen of our owne side now this last yeare published in print that the hauing of this very booke so long in secret amongst them vnanswered hath bene one great cause of the apostasy of so many yong mē as of late yeares in this our cuntry haue reuolted from the truth to popery at the last I resolued with my selfe though I know that whē I had done what I could herein that I should be foūd to haue said litle or nothing not said writtē aswel before by some one or other of our side that yet your Lordships request made vnto me to answere it as fully and directly as I coulde when you first shewed me the booke how you came by it was is such as that both of duty to your selfe particularly for sundry causes to the church of Christ generally for that by this means many may see togither an answere to that which otherwise in great part either they might chance neuer to hit of in any other wryter of ours or else be driuen to search more those further then it was likely they would or could I was bound to satisfy in as good sort as any way conueniently I could Hauing therefore encouradgement by these reasons to take it in hand hauing now by Gods grace finished it in maner as you see I present the same vnto your Honour as an vndoubted token of my dutifull affection towards you beseeching you not onely to take the paynes as your leasure serueth you to peruse it ouer your selfe but also desyring you to bee vnto it such a patrone as that it comming abroade thus by your prouocation it may haue your best protection and countenaunce to passe vp and downe openly and boldly both in the veiw of frendes and foes vnto it There was prefixed before Jhon de Albines book vvhich your honour deliuered me a long preface to the reader made as it should seeme by the publisher thereof in english and there was annexed vnto it in the later ende an offer of a catholicke as hee is there termed to a learned protestant consisting of two and twenty demaunds and six signes of false prophets heretiques and schismatiques the preface I haue aunswered and the answere thereunto I haue placed next vnto my aunswere vnto Albines booke it selfe somewhat also I haue annexed that answere of mine to his booke finished in the latter ende to shewe the vanitie and childishnesse of those things which the author hath vttered in the application of those six signes to vs but to that which hee hath written concerning those two and twenty demaunds I haue said nothing And indeed because otherwise the booke was growen farre greater then I imagined at the first it woulde I haue not at all inserted that offer nor anie part thereof The reason of my not medling at all with those two and twenty demaunds and not troubling this my booke at all with anie part of that offer is that Doctor Fulke long agoe hath aunswered those demaundes and that also nowe of late Master Crowley hath at large aunswered both them and that which is added concerning those signes Doctor Fulkes answere thereunto maie bee had vnder the title of an aunswere of a Christian protestant to the proude Chalenge of a popish Catholicke and it is prefixed commonly before his booke written in confutation of Allens of Purgatorie Indeede concerning the six signes hee saieth nothing not because of any greater matter in them then in the rest but because at the first they were not published with the other The demaunds though hee haue aunswered shortly according to his manner yet so sharpely and effectuallie hee hath doone it that if the Chalenger were a man of his worde hee continued not long after a popish Catholicke Master Crowleys aunswere to the whole offer worde for worde as it was annexed
aside of all our sorrowes and the banishing of all tēptations because they die not but liue for euer which seeme to die and therefore saieth he we keepe the memories of the Saints and of our parents and frendes which die in the faith as reioycing for their rest so begging for our selues consūmation in the faith and to this ende to celebrate the memory of such so departed we call the poore togither and satisfy thē with victualls in token of our ioy thankfulnes for their quietnes rest He that getteth not forgiuenes of his sinnes here shal not be there and therefore saieth Dauid forgiue mee that I may bee refreshed before I go hence and be no more seene saieth Ambrofe de hono mortis cap. 2. And Cyprian against Demetrian saieth most flatly when one is gone hence there is no place for repētance no effect of satisfaction de mortalitate againe he saieth what maner of one God findeth thee when he calleth thee euen such an one also will hee iudge thee Chrysostome is as flat as Ambrose in these points For vpon the 4. of the Hebrewe hom 4. he saieth that if we come to the throne of grace now we shall haue grace mercy now is the time of gifts after of iudgemēt and in his sermon de Eucharistiâ in Eucaen there is saieth he after this life ended no negotiatiō this is the time of suffering or striuing that of crowns this of labour that of ease this of sorow that of reward therefore in the 7. Hom vpon the 2. of the Hebrewes shewing a reason of the solemnities vsed at burials he saieth that the reasō thereof is that we may glorify God giue him thāks that hath crowned taken to himselfe our brother departed freed him from his labours seruitude are not our Psalmes hymnes for this our singing omnia ista gaudētiū sunt al these saith he are the doings of men that reioyce de beato Philogonio most cōfidētly he writeth Ego fide iubeo c. that is I doe pawne my credit if any depart from his sinnes with his whole heart truly and vnfeinedly promise vnto God that he will returne no more vnto them that God will require nothing more of him to satisfaction But to come to Augustin he in his 80. epistle to Hesichius saith in what state soeuer thy last day findeth thee in the same will the last day of the worlde come vpon thee for what maner of one euery man dieth such an one then he shal be iudged and vpō the 25. Psa he plainely wisheth that only the price of the Lords bloud might be sufficient to him for his perfect freedome and deliuerance Herein we are sure they had the scriptures full of their sides For first they assure vs that the bloud of Iesus Christ doth clense vs from all sinne 1. Iohn 1. and that hee so bare our sinnes in his owne body vpon the tree that by his stripes we are healed 1. Pe. 2. Secondly they teach vs that blessed are they that dye in the Lord for euen thenceforth immediatly they rest from their labours and their works follow them Apo. 14. And thirdly likewise directly they affirme that an ill man once dead there is no more hope for him Pro. 11. and that therefore wee must haue oyle in our lāps in a readines when the bridegroome calleth vs or else we shal be shut out for euer what stur soeuer we make to prouide oyle after Mat. 25. And lastly in these vpon these grounds all men are vrged whiles the day lasteth while the acceptable time or day of saluatiō endureth whiles the Lord is nigh and may be found whiles they haue time to worke to embrace the gospel to seeke the Lord and to doe good vnto al men as it is well enough knowen And therefore if these fathers as mē at any time or any other ether by their example or writing haue in any point neuer so litle in any kind of sort crossed thēselues the holy canonicall scriptures in any of these points either in praying for the dead or in laying any groūd or occasiō therof we may boldly leaue thē chuse rather to cleaue vnto thē in these These things thus premised let vs now proceed to the particuler examining of Iohn de Albines quotatiōs for their kind of praier for the dead His first mā is Tert. for higher he cānot go to fetch any shew of colour for this matter vnles he would run to Apocrypha writings to philosophers poets to heretiques or to the notoriously knowen coūterfeit writings of Clemēt such like And out of this Tertulliā he alleageth two places the first out of his book de Monogamiâ the other out of his book de coronâ militis both which were writē by him after he becāe a Montanist as Beatus Rhenanus in his argumēts of those two books is ēforced to cōfes for in the later he mētioneth the new prophecy therby vnderstāding Mōtanus fācies in the other he most plainly cōdēneth secōd mariage quite cōtrary to the doctrin of S. Paul as Hierom hath truely noted vpon Titus and therefore both there he condemneth that booke as an hereticall booke and also in his catalogue of ecclesiasticall wryters as a booke writen against the Church Albine therfore hath aptlier then he was aware of sought out an heretique in his hereticall wrytings to bee the first man to speake for the patronising of this popish heresie of his But perhaps he wil say that he learned not of heretiques to speake for prayer for the dead Whereunto I reply that if euer he wrote any thing therin to serue your turne he learned it of no better schoolemasters then of such or of philosophers their ordinarie teachers For as hee himselfe writeth de praescript aduersus haereticos as the original of al trueth was doctrine receaued by the Apostles frō Christ so the spring of al errour hath beene frō the diuel by philosophers And touching this particuler in his booke de animâ he writeth that the philosophers that helde the immortality of the soule as Pythagoras Empedocles and Plato assigned for soules departed heauen hell and a thirde purifying place and in that booke he sheweth that Montanus his master helde that the Patriarches before Christs comming were in hell that Abrahams bosome was in hell or in the lower parts that onely perfect men and martyrs went to heauen streight and that all small offences must be punished after this life to the vttermost farthing his paraclet so expounding that of Mat. ca. de inf vlt and in that booke also he telleth of a woman lying to bee buried that at the praiers of the Priest ouer her lifted vp her hands c. whereby it seemeth that the heretique Montanus his paraclet might be very fit schoolmasters to teach him a great part of your doctrine in this point Further that you may see not only by his own testimony that he might haue such school masters as I haue saied to teach him herein somwhat to fauor you to speake of your side Irenaeus in his first book
contrariety betwixt the saied two bookes themselues by the authours crauing to be borne withall and by his seeming to iustify in those bookes cōtrary to the Canonicall scriptures indeede sundry things Secondly let any mā read 1. Mach. 7. 12. the 2.4.3 and 13. and he shall thereby most plainely see that in those times whereof those bookes containe the story there were wonderfull grosse corruptions directly contrary to the lawe of God crept in amongst the Iewes from the Gentiles and yet securely practised of them Thirdly this is to be considered that neither Iosephus writing the whole story of the Machabees nor yet the fift Chapter of the first booke where the same story is handled maketh any mention of this fact of Iudas Fourthly if we looke to his fact indeede as the authour setteth it forth in Greeke we shall finde that the trueth thereof was and is onely this that he finding two thousand slaine that tooke vpon them of their owne heads to fight with the Iannites without commandement of their Captaine of an ambitious minde to get themselues a name that vnder their garments they had things hid consecrated to the Gods of the Iannites euery man then seeing that that was the cause they were slaine therupon first hauing called his people together he exhorted them by that example to keepe themselues from sinne and to giue glory to the Lord for his righteous iudgement executed vpon them and to pray that the rest perished not for that their sinne be like hauing in remembrance the story of Achan Iosua 6. And this thus according to his exhortation done he made a collectiō of two thousand drachmaes sent them to Hierusalem to offer a sinne offering which if he did to appease the Lordes wrath that it should not burst out to the hurt of the rest as it did against the Israelites at the besiege of Ai Iosua the seuēth for the like sinne in Achan as it may be hee did hitherto hee did but well and with warrant from the twenty one of Deutronomie and seuenth of Iosua but here he staied not but as it appeareth by the authours owne wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 discoursing with himselfe of the resurrection hee prayed for the dead and sought to make reconciliation for their sinne that so they might haue their part in the resurrection of the godlie for whom very godly hee thought that there was great hope layed vp But if hee had remembred that hee had neither commandemēt example nor promise in Gods booke thus to encourage him to doe and that the Lord had saied You shall not doe euerie one that which seemeth good in his owne eies but that which I commaund thee that onely doe thou shalt adde nothing thereunto nor take ought there from Deut 12. he should not haue followed his owne discourse imagination thus to haue done without all warrāt from the word of the Lorde In many places of the olde testament he might haue remembred that of purpose the solemnity of burials are spokē of yet that neuer there is any mention either of any such thing cōmanded there to be done or remēbred to haue beene done yea that Tobias the elder though there be much saied of him to his commendation in burial of the dead in his history that yet there is not any mention of any such thing done by him And it is worth the noting that from the time of Iudas Machabeus it cānot be proued by any story after vntil now of very late daies that any such thing was by any godly man attempted againe Further yet how can this serue to breed any credit to popish praying or sacrificing for the dead in purgatory seeing the papists thēselues confesse that there was no purgatory before the comming of Christ that they that die in deadly sinne as it appeareth by the story these did go not at all thither but streight to hell Lastly for any thing I can see in the authours words thorowly considered it may be saied for his credit that he sheweth that Iudas Machabeus did thus that he did very well honestly to thinke hope of the resurrection very godly to be perswaded that then it should be very well with those that died godly but that vpon these cogitations he did thus for these he doeth not at all iustifie him but rather shew that therein he followed his owne reason and discourse And this being thus all the strength of this place is lost For an historiographer may and doeth set downe often aswell the faults as commendable things of famous mē that they write of Wherefore to cōclude this point for all this it remaineth firme and sound that I saied before they can neither by scripture nor any sound ancient writer approue their sacrificing offering or praying for the reliefe of soules in purgatorie Wherefore to go on now we are come to examine Origēs testimonies which are two onely here cyted for prayer for the dead by Albine namely his 12 Homily vpon Ieremy and his 8. booke vpon the Romans cap. 11. in which places let them be read neuer so often there shal not be foūd so much as mētion of prayers for the dead indeede in both of them there is some mention of a purging fire but as I haue shewed before in the first entrance into this point when I repeated the words of the authour in these places none at all of the popish purgatorie For in the first he speaketh of that fire that must consume our hay woode and stubble which hee telleth vs is God who is a consuming fire of such things and in the other he speaketh expresly of the fire and torments of hell wherein saieth he he that would not be purged by the Euangelicall and Apostolique doctrine reserueth himselfe to be purified Thus thou maiest see good reader that which I admonished thee of before how they proue praying for the deade by mention of a purging fire though it be mentioned neuer so diuersly and farre from their sence as in these two places it is most euident it is whereby thou maiest see how with out all conscience they seeke to abuse thee with fond reasons and ambiguity of words Belike though the Scripture saie in hell there is no redemption yet Master Albine beleeues by his alleadging the later of these places Damascenes tale of Gregories getting Traians soule out of hell by praier and that Saint Frauncis and others also haue done and now can doe the like or at least that he and his fellowes haue beene fowely deceiued that before now made it a distinct place from hell In earnest let them take heede whom they haue perswaded hitherto doe hereafter that they go but thither and that they so they will take order they may be well paide for it will helpe them to ease there and out in the ende that they finde not indeede the popish purgatorie they dreamt of in the ende to proue nothing else but the fire
hundred yeares haue beene at contention yet doubtles are not agreed about the conception of the Virgin Mary whither it were in sinne or no about diuers sundry other great mysteries of their religion Yea euen in the Sacrament of the body and bloude of Christ wherein they would seeme to be at greatest vnity yet if a man were disposed to note the diuers opinions therein amongst themselues he should scarse euer knowe when to make an ende For there be some of them that holde that there Christs body is torne and chewed with the teeth as it appeareth in the Recantation that they prescribe to Beringarius others as Guymund de Consecra Dist 2. thinke that too grosse Some as Gardener would haue Hoc to signifie indiuiduum vagum a certaine thing that is but they cannot tell what others now would haue it to note that which is vnder the accidentes of bread and wine Scotus and Innocentius the fourth holde consecration to be not by the fiue wordes but by Christs blessing others holde now that it is done by the fiue wordes When it commeth to the eating some holde that it entreth the mouth but no further others wil haue it to passe into the stomacke but not into the guttes others wil haue it to go thither also Infinite are the questions that they are fallen into about this matter And in their last conuenticle at Trident where they had hoped to haue healed all these sores yet euen then there grew a great contention betwixt two great captaynes of theirs Archbishop Catharinus and Frier Soto and that about no small matters namely about assured confidence of the fauour of God Predestination originall sinne free-will and such like matters Insomuch that for all the councell could doe for six yeares together they continuallie went on in writing bookes bitterly one against another The same Catharin also wrote a booke against Caietan a Cardinall laying therein to his charge 200. errours CoÌ„tention also the same Catharin had with FraÌ„ciscus Torrensis a man otherwise of his owne faction about single life of priests residence of Bishops both which the one helde was as hee taught therein warranted by Gods worde the other stoutly holding the contrary In the Articles of iustification free grace and originall sinne Ruard Tapper a great Papist and Deane of Colen in his second tome wrote against Piggius an Archpiller of that Synagogue contending to proue that he was deceiued and erred in those pointes But what should I take vpon me to reckon vp the contentions and controuersies that are amongst them For certaine it is they are so many and infinite that a man if he were disposed might write a booke of a whole quire of paper consisting onely of a bare recitall of the differences of opinions that their writers haue set downe in their owne bookes about points and questions of religion And yet see as though there neuer had beene iarre amongst them they brag of vnity amongst the simple and labour our disgrace with the obiection of variety of opinions amongst vs especially about this one point of the maner of Christs reall presence in the sacrament But seeing now hereby in parte you see at what agreement they are I hope you thinke it reason that they should agree better amongest themselues before they insult any more against vs for our disagreement Lastly they doe vs wrong in seeking to disgrace vs and our religion in that since Luther beganne to preach there haue risen vp diuerse and sundrie fonde and foolish heretiques For wee read that immediatly after the Apostles tymes euen within few yeares Epiphanius by his tyme could reckon vp eighty and Augustine more seuerall errours and heresies which in effect did growe togither with the Gospell and yet the Gospell not to be blamed therefore but Sathan who where the good seedes-man sowed good seede vseth to sowe also his tares Matthew the thirteenth And yet it seemeth by Saint Iohns preuention of this obiection that some aswell affected to the Gospell then belike as you be now were ready hereby to discredit both the Apostles and their doctrine But Iohns answere is they went out from vs but they were not of vs for if they had beene of vs they would haue continued vvith vs. But this came to passe that it might appeare that they were not all of vs 1. Iohn 3. Euen so wee answere you concerning those that you say haue any where since Luther risen amongst vs and fallen into heresies Yet further so much the more apparent is the wronge that you offer vs in this behalfe in that not onely you knowe we shun communion with them as wel as you but that also it euidently hath appeared to the world that wee haue beene both the first and the forwardest in detecting of them and in confuting of them from time to time Wherfore I conclude that hitherto you haue saied nothing of any force for the iustification either of your vocation Church or religion The V. Chapter THe like vnto this is confirmed by Vincensius Lyrinensis of whom we haue spoken before for he saith in the booke aboue named that that person ought to be esteemed a true Catholicke a This rule is sound and good but it quite ouerthroweth popery because it cannot be proued to be this ancient Catholique faith For â—he contrary is certaine both by scripture and all sound antiquity that hath nothing in greater coÌ„meÌ„dation then the true religion of the Catholick faith yea although it were the wisest man in the world and the greatest Philosopher and the fairest speaker that euer was if he came to speake against the old doctrine that hath beene taught vs of our forefathers time out of mind we ought saieth he to disdaine that learned Clarke with al his philosophy cuÌ„ning to holde our selues to the ancieÌ„t opinion of the church the which hath continued vntill this present day b But such as all popery and no part of our religion And if that nowe one should bring a new doctrine that was not heard of before contrary vnto that that hath euer bene taught in the Church say that it doeth not appertaine vnto the state of the Catholicke faith that it is no religioÌ„ but a temptation And therefore if we wil be saued we ought to liue and die in that faith that hath continued by succession of Pastours euen froÌ„ Christs time vnto these daies S. Irenaeus a very famous writer Lib. 4. contr haer cap. 65. in his fourth book against heresies the 65. Chapter who was within a few yeares of the Apostles Archbishop of Lions writeth the very like c Proue your religion now to bee the same that was in Irenaeus time and then you say something his testimony make for you otherwise not and this is impossible saying that the true faith the true knowledge of God is the doctrine of the Apostles the ancient estate of the Church throughout the world
according to the successioÌ„ of those Bishops vnto whoÌ„ only the Apostles coÌ„mitted the custody of the Church throughout the world the which saith he is come to vs. This saied Irenaeus doeth write in his third booke and second Chapter that he and his fellowes did withstand the Valentinians and the Marcionistes which were great heretiques by the traditions of the Apostles d A cursed glosse for it corrupteth the text for the tradition that he speaketh of had good warrant in the writeÌ„ word that is to say the doctrine not writen but receaued from age to age of the Apostles and so continued till their time He saith likewise vnto the Traditions which are of the Apostles and that by successioÌ„ of pastours haue beene vsed in the Church we doe persuade and prouoke those that speake against Traditions Hee writes as much more in the third Chapter of the saied booke Forasmuch saith he as it were to tedious to set forth in one booke the Successours of al the Churches and to tel theÌ„ one by one we doâ—â—â—â—â— throw those that for vaine glory doe seek to gather disciples togither touching them contrary to that that doeth appertaine vnto the traditions of the Apostles the which we doe shew to theÌ„ by the saied Traditions and by the faith that hath beene taught and is come to vs by succession of the Bishops of the great and ancient Church of Rome the which was founded by the two glorious Martirs and Apostles Saint Peter Saint Paul These are his words in his third booke aduersus haereses a The third you should say the fifth Chapter And at the beginning of the saied Chapter he saieth thus All these that will vnderstand the trueth may presently regard the traditions of the Apostles which are manifest throughout the world and wee cannot count the number of those that haue bene instituted and ordeined Bishops in the Church and their Successours till our daies which haue neither knowen nor taught any thing like vnto the fables and tales that these doe preach vnto vs. b If you say so you say it without cause and vntruely Not without cause we may now a daies say the like of the Lutherans Caluinistes other sects of our time After this he doeth set forth all the Popes of Rome c If the Popes euer since had beene like these you and wee should not haue needed to striue as we doe from Saint Peter vnto Eleutherius which was Pope in his time And he did affirme that that number did suffice to proue that the doctrine of Marcian and Valentinian was false very hurtfull because that it was vnknown or at the least not receiued or approued by the Church being vnder the gouernance of any of thâ—se Popes Then with greater reason ought prescription to take place against d True but such you shall neuer proue ours to bee a new doctrine which hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares or at the least if any body sought to publish it he was condemned as a false perâ—itious hereticke The V. Chapter YOu must remember that Vincentius liued 1000 yeares ago by your own coÌ„fessioÌ„ that therfore he speaketh of their time and of the Catholique Church and ancient faith that then was Whereof if you vnderstand him we say as he saied and are more willing to ioine and holde communion with that Church of Christ that he speaketh of then you but then his saying maketh directly against you For neither your Church nor faith was in his dayes We grauÌ„t you also that Irenaeus did vrge succession of persons to stop the mouthes of the heretiques as you shew in this Chapter out of him but withal then you must not forget that he liued not long after the Apostles times when as yet they whose Succession he alleadged continued in the sincerity of the Apostolique doctrine from which long ago your Roman Church as it is now hath fallen by antichristian apostacy For that hee calleth the principall succession and those bishops onely he teacheth are to be obeyed who togither with the succession of their Bishoprickes haue receiued the gift of trueth as I noted vnto you out of his fourth booke 43 Chapter in my answere to your first Chapter But Irenaeus no where prescribeth that his example of vrging hereticks to see their folly by Succession for a perpetuall rule to followe neither therein doeth he prophecy that for 1000 yeares after further those successiue lines of Bishops or any other would continue so in possession of the trueth of doctrine as that safely alwaies they might be ioyned vnto For he was not ignorant what was prophecied concerning the comming of Antichrist 2 Thess 2. and Reuel 17. and that Paul tolde to the Pastors of Ephesus Act. 20. that after his departure there would arise vp euen amongst themselues grieuous wolues not sparing the flock which must needs import that howsoeuer in his time he thought sometimes of succession of bishops that continued in the trueth that yet it was farre from his meaning to prophecy that so it would be alwaies You reason therefore in this point as one that to proue the stewes at Rome now to be pure virgins should alleadge for proofe thereof that they were so when they were yong children For euen like difference and ods there is betwixt the Church of Rome now and her bishops and pastours and that that was in the daies times that you and the authours that you alleage speake of For whereas vnto these times the Church of Rome her bishops pastours stoode and continued in the trueth since not only many of the bishops of Rome themselues whom you hold are freest furthest of of al other from erring as I haue shewed already most plainly fell into heresie but also al your Romish doctrine which we now count cal papistical was diuised found out since those times and is also not only beside but contrary to the doctrine then taught receiued by the ancient Church of Rome her pastours as ere I haue done with you I hope at least in great part sufficieÌ„tly to proue It should seeme therfore that either you in thus reasoning are very childish your selfe or els you thinke you haue to deale but with babes and fooles in that because Irenaeus that florished within two hundred yeares after Christ when the Church was yet pure and vndefiled in comparison of the tymes that followed could and did vrge Succession of persons ioined with succession of trueth therefore you may that liue 1500. yeares after Christ and more You must first proue that succession of trueth is vnseparable from personall succession that euer since and now also the Bishops pastours whose personall succession you bragge of haue continued in the trueth as well as they did whose names he reciteth Whereof neither shall either you or any of you be able to proue as long as the world standeth Fye therefore for shame that you
of those words Except yee eat the flesh of the son of mā c. killeth therefore he teacheth vs there spiritually to vnderstand them Who vpon these wordes of Christ gathereth that no wicked man can eate the flesh of christ vpon Mat. c. 15. as for the other part he granteth the wicked may eat that when it hath beene eatē in the end it is auoided into the place of easement Hom 15. vpon Mat. Athanasius noteth the christ made mention of his ascension Iohn 6. to wtdraw thē from corporall fleshly vnderstāding of his words vpon these words whosoeuer speaketh a word against the son c. But Chrys goeth plainly to work saith in his 11. Hom vpon Mat. that the very body of christ himselfe is not in the holy vessels but the mistery sacrament thereof is therin conteined And therefore in his 46. Hom. vpon Iohn sheweth vs the christ saying the flesh profiteth nothing Iohn 6. therby warned vs to take heede of carnall and fleshly vnderstanding of his words which is to vnderstand them saieth he simply and in his 4. Homil vpon the 4. to the Corinth he telleth vs that the body of Christ is the carion where the Eagles will bee he nameth eagles saieth he to shew that who so will approch to his body must mount aloft haue no dealing with the earth nor be drawē downward but must euermore fly vp c. For this is a table of Eagles saieth he that fly on high not of Iaies that creepe beneath Christ tooke bread which cōforteth mās hart that he might represēt therby his body bloud saith Hier. vpō the 26. of Mat. As thou hast in baptism receued the similitude of death so likewise dost thou in this sacramēt drīk the similitude of christs bloud saieth Ambrose in his 4 booke 4 c. of the sacraments Ciprian de vnctione chrismatis writeth thus Christ in his last supper gaue vnto his Apostles bread wine which he called his body bloud but on the Crosse hee gaue his very body to be wounded with the hands of the souldiers that the Apostles might declare vnto the world how in what maner the bread may be the flesh bloud of Christ And the maner straight way he declareth thus that those things which do signifie those things which be signified by thē may be both called by one name Fulgētius in his booke to King Thrasimund hath these words This cup or chalice is the new Testamēt that is to say doth signifie the new Testament Theodoret in his first Dialogue most plainely writeth that Christ honoured the signes and representatiōs which are seene with the name of his body and bloud not changing their natures but adding grace to nature and yet more plainely in the 2. Dialogue he writeth thus the mystical signes after sanctification go not from their nature for they tary in their former substance figure and forme Yea euen Gelasius a Pope about the yeare 500. against Eutiches is as plaine saying in the Eucharist the substāce and nature of bread and wine cease not For the image and similitude of the body and bloud is celebrated in those mysteries And Bertram in his treatise of this matter writen in the time of Carolus Caluus laboureth by many proofes testimonies to shew that bread and wine remaine still and that we are here to followe Christ in a figure and mistery And Bede vpon Luke 22. saith because bread doeth comfort mans heart and wine doeth make good bloud in his body therefore the bread is mystically compared to Christs body and the wine to Christs bloud The like saying hath Haymo in his 5. booke De sermonum proprietate Emissenus de consecrat Dist 2. cap. Quia corpus compareth the conuersion in the Sacrament to the conuersion in a man regenerated which we all know is in quality and not in substance There are two Epistles yet extant in the Saxon tongue made by one Alfricke in King Etheldreds time about the yeare of the Lord 996 being then as some write Bishop of Canterbury wherein he teacheth the bread and wine to be no otherwise the body and bloud of Christ then manna and the water of the rocke was Christ who also translated 80 sermons out of latin into the Saxon tongue whereof 24. were appointed to be read for homilies and in that which was to be read on Easter day there is much direct matter against Transubstantiation and your reall presence And since these times you know well inough wee haue had many from time to time yea mo thē you well like of that haue beene as flat and direct against your kinde of reall presence as we are now This Master Foxes booke of Actes and Monuments hath made euident to all the world And it is famously knowen that before your Lateran Councel vnder Innocent the 3. in the yeare 1215. it was not decreed to bee as you now hold It appeareth also by the last session of the councell of Florence which is not much aboue 140. yeares ago that the Greeke Church vntill then stoode against your doctrine of transubstantiation which is the ground of your reall presence And Tonstall though otherwise a great man on your side yet in his booke of this sacrament saieth perhaps it had beene better to leaue euery man that would be curious concerning this matter of the maner how Christ is present to his owne coniecture as by his confession before the councel of Lateran it was left at libertie And Iohn Duns a frend of yours vpon the 4. booke of the sentences saieth that the wordes might haue beene expounded more plainely then by Transubstantiation if it had pleased the Church Gabriel Biell another great doctour vpon the canon of the masse in his 40. reading plainely confesseth that it is not expressed in the canon of the Bible how the body of Christ is there whither by Trāsubstantiatiō or Consubstantiation Euen so your great Bishop Iohn Fisher writing against Luthers booke of the captiuity of Babylō is enforced to confesse that he findeth not in Mathew nor any where els in the scripture any thing to proue that there is thereby the reall presence of Christ in your masse nor that whensoeuer a Priest shall go about that matter hee maketh the bread wine the body and bloud of Christ and so concludeth that he thinketh that euery man vnderstandeth that the certaintie of that matter dependeth not so much of the Gospell as it doeth vpon the vse tradition and custome of the Church These testimonies forasmuch as directly they are against your literall exposition of Christs words your new deuise of transubstantiation the onely piller and buttresse of your real presence and against your grosse and carnal eating of him with the bodily mouthes of all receiuers good and bad they may not bee denied to bee forcible against your reall presence For the cause thereof denied and taken away the effect must cease and if the
they left in writtng by the ordinance of God to confute such heretiques as you are The XXXVII Chapter AT last it seemeth by your paines taken in this Chapter you be thought your selfe that forasmuch as hitherto onelie in bare and naked wordes you had vaunted and bragged your Religion to be the ancient Religion that it was needefull for you euē for shame before you made a full end of your booke to yeeld vs some reasons and grounds or at least some shew colour of your so lewd and bold boasting And therefore here now at last to that ende you haue mustered the bare names of a few ancient fathers very prouidently leauing your Readers to the examining of your quotations amōgst whom not one of an hundreth you knew either for lacke of skill or will leasure or bookes could and would turne to the places in the authours themselues You thought belike your credit to bee such that they must needes beleeue that you cite thē truely and faithfully and that because you so roundly haue huddled them togither that therefore also out of all question they spake and wrotefully for you in the points you alleadge them for What smal cause there is either for you to looke thus to bee trusted or for any to yeelde you such credit herein wee shall see anone when wee come to the examining of your quotations In the meane time what ment you by this thus onely when all commeth to al to countenance these 4 points your Ceremonies in baptisme confession before the sacrament praiers to the Saints departed and praier for the dead Are these the greatest matters of your religion in question Or doeth it especially depend vpon these 4 and the coūtenancing of these Or was your prouision ready for no more that but once in all your booke you seeming to set downe the authorities whereupon you ground your religion you would take the paines to go no further then to these 4 points Indeed in your next Chapter you excuse your selfe and say that you would haue gone likewise on to confirme the rest but for being tedious to your reader Truely he is much beholden to you for your discreet kindnes towards him that haue not spared to be tedious vnto him in al the rest of your book in troubling of him with such a number of proud brags of the antiquity and catholikenes of al your religion as you haue and with many needles and friuolous long discourses besides and now when you came to the point indeed which of all other was most materiall and wherein both for his satisfaction and your owne credit it stood you vpon most to enlarge your selfe then thus to shift him of with as good as nothing bearing him yet in hand that but for his ease you both could and would haue saied inough This is a common tricke amongst you thus to cozen and abuse your simple readers to weary them with things needles and then to slip ouer with some such shift as this matters most needful Wel concerning that which either you haue saied here for these 4 points or that which after you pretend if you had list you could haue easily saied for the rest this I would haue the reader diligently to note and marke that but for two places vainely alleaged to proue your confession that you neither haue alleaged any testimony of scripture at all for the proofe of these nor yet that you so much as say after you could or would for the rest Which argueth that euen in your owne conscience the best ground and countenance that your popish religion hath either in these points or in the rest is but from earth and not from heauen from men and not from the holy ghost For if you had beene able with any good colour to haue coūtenāced either these points or any of the rest out of Gods owne booke and writen word the reader may think that neither your zeale to your religion nor yet your boasting spirit which hitherto hath shewed it selfe ouerflowing in you either would or could haue suffered you thus much to the preiudice your whole cause cleane to haue forgotten so much as once to go about it But to say the trueth seeing it is confessed by your betters not onely that this but the most of all the rest of the points of your Religiō which we striue with you for are grounded but vpon tradition as I haue shewed out of Soto against Brentius Canisius fift Chapter of his Catechisme and Lyndans 100. Chapter of the fifth booke of his panoply before you are the honester man and the more a great deale to be liked for your thus secretly confessing the same with them Now yet by this the Reader may plainely vnderstand what hath indeede beene the reason why in all your booke hitherto you haue laboured so much as you haue to grace and countenance tradition and the exposition of the doctours and withall haue spent so much time in diswading the appealing to the Scriptures for the ending of the controuersies betwixt vs. You were wise enough it seemeth to see where your strength lay and from whēce would rise your bane and therefore who can blame you for leaning as you doe altogither to the one and shunning the other But then in reason yet you should call your Religion no more diuinity but humanity no more Theologie but patrologie and plainely confesse indeede from whence you haue all your figge leaues rags and clouts to couer your shame and nakednes Truely these you haue whatsoeuer in this respect you pretend not from the right and sound Apostolique tradition which alwaies was either expressed in Scripture or at least cōsonant vnto it nor from the ancient holy fathers rightly vnderstood and when they taught as it was of themselues acknowledged to be their duties with sound warrant from the scriptures as I haue sundry times shewed already but onely from forged or corrupt tradition and from the fathers either misunderstood or erring as men So that vnwriten verities or rather forgeries sentences of fathers mistaken or their verie errours whereof they would haue beene ashamed if they had had the meanes to helpe them to see them that you haue are the groundes pillers and bewties of your church and Religion And this we are alwaies ready to iustifie against you before the whole world by sound and inuincible proofe out of the vn doubted word of God interpreted according to the same rules of interpreting it that the holy and ancient fathers themselues haue followed in confuting all heretiques in their times by and which they haue likewise commended to others alwaies to be obserued and out of the vndoubted writings of the ancientest and best fathers them selues Wee are therefore verie well content to liue and die in that Church and Religion which we are sure we are able thus to iustifie and we enuy not you but rather heartely lament and pittie you that yours hath no better grounde then it hath But to
brother Caesarius oratione septima Ambrose for Valentian de obitu Valentiniani And for Theodosius de obitu eius and Augustine for his mother lib. confess 9. Cap. 13. Yea as William of Westminster reports in his story thus Charles the great about 800. years after Christ wrote to one Offa king here of Mercta to desire him that praiers might bee made for Pope Adrian nullam habētes dubitationem beatā illius animam esse in requie sed vt fidem dilectionem ostendamus in amicum nobis charissimum not doubting saieth he but that his blessed soule is in rest but to declare our faith and loue towardes our most deare frend Wherein they did as if a tender tutor ouer his pupill though hee knowe the childes parentes of themselues will more carefully and tenderly looke to their childe comming home vnto them from the vniuersity then euer hee did or coulde yet writing vnto them to shewe his loue towardes his scholler shoulde desire them to vse him louinglie and kindely Howsoeuer it cannot be denyed but that this was somewhat more then needed and was some occasion of further proceeding from step to step vntill there were too too playne groundes layed of popish kinde of praying for the dead yet euery man most easily may espie that this kinde of praying for the dead can neuer kindle either the fire of popish purgatory or iustifie their kinde of praying to relieue soules there Indeed it should seeme by Aerius his opposing himselfe against praying for the dead as it appeareth in Epiphanius hee did some by that time mistaking these kindes of praying for them that I haue spoken of and stretching the examples thereof further then they should at least as Aerius vnderstood them tooke vpon them so to pray for the dead that howsoeuer a man liued and died yet after he was gone by the prayers of his frendes it was thought that he should doe wel inough Against which kinde of praying for them he inueigheth as against the bane of all godlinesse and religion but herein by Epiphanius it appeareth he faulted that this being but either the opinion of the ignorant multitude or his owne onely misconstruing the Churches fashiō in remembring of the dead in their praiers or praiing for them he slanderously laied that to the charge of the Church Epiphanius therefore in answering of him laieth this downe for the ground of all the rest that those whō the Church praied for were with the Lord in rest and ioie which flatly sheweth that the Churches praying for the dead that he pleads for against Aerius maketh nothing for the popish praying for them or for purgatory But vpon this occasion AErius vrging this question whither the praiers of men aliue did profit the dead and if they did whither so far as that thereby they were deliuered from al their sinnes thereunto Epiphanius both belike quite to condemne the opinion of the ignorant multitude yet loth also to defend that which he could not iustifie first answereth onely that the praiers made for thē were profitable thē that yet not so profitable as that therby al their sinnes were done away but neither doeth he simply and plainely answere that they were profitable to the dead themselues nor once take vpō him to aduouch that thereby some certaine sinnes may be put away but subtlely leauing these things thus in suspense he flyeth to other causes and reasons why they are profitable And the causes and reasons set downe by him are these first thereby comfortably their frends aliue are occasioned to beleeue that they that are dead are not perished but aliue with the Lord secondly that thereby may be nourished in the that liue this hope that the soules of thē that are so dead are as pilgrimes gone out of their bodies to be with the Lord and thirdly that by praying so euen for the best as for patriarches prophets Apostles and martyrs it may bee acknowledged that the best were offēders that so Christ alone may haue that preheminence to be a man without sinne that so all may see what neede they haue of Christ The very like reasons to these are yeelded by him that beareth the name of Dionysius the Ariopagite of the solemne prayers and solemnities remembred by him at the buriall of the dead cap. 7. Eccles Hierarchiae where of them that die he maketh but two sortes holy and prophane placing the holy company all of them aswell the imperfecter sort as the most perfect in blessed state in their soules immediately vpon their deathes and the other in woe and eternall misery And yet he alloweth not onely for the former sort thankesgiuing but also prayers to be made vnto God that for Christs sake their sinnes may be forgiuen them for the comfort and commonifaction of them that are aliue as Epiphanius did So that though in this case it be vsuall with the Papists to make great bragges of Epiphanius and this Demus yet if they bee thorowly looked into they are more against them then with them The like may be saied of the rest of the auncient fathers whom they most make shewe of in this point for howsoeuer some of them maie seeme to come somewhat too neare them in seeming in some sort to imagine that some good may growe to the departed towards the easing of them of some of their sinnes by the prayers of the faithfull for them after they be gone hence as it cannot bee denied but that Chrysostome Augustine and some others haue thought yet that they either placed all that they prayed for to haue any of their sinnes forgiuen thē in purgatorie or that they thought that soules so tormented there for sinnes vnsatisfied for here might thereby bee freed from their sinnes not fully pardoned them ere they went hence they shall neuer bee able to proue And yet these are the thinges that they must proue or else their maner of praying for the dead is left vnproued For with one voice euen they that otherwise seeme most to fauour them in this point holde that there is no purgation or clensing from sinne but onely in the bloud of Christ that here pardon of sinnes is to bee obtained or neuer and that after this life ended there is no bettering or altering the state of the departed before the last iudgement all which are positions whereof euery one is sufficient to quench the fire of the Popish purgatorie and to ouerthrowe their ende of praying for the dead For proofe whereof let vs but cōsider of these speeches and sayings of theirs amōgst an infinite nūber of like force vttered by thē The authour of those tracts of Iob commonly fathered of Origen from whence often they would seeme in this case to haue great furniture descrybing the fashion of the church in his time saieth in the third tract or booke we celebrate not the day of our natiuity seeing it is the entrance into sorrowe temptation but the day of our death as the very laying
that which he should this marke is euident vpon them and not vpon vs. But if by the common knowen catholicke church of Christ that hee talketh of here and alwaies else he vnderstand as it is apparent that hee doeth their Roman church that now is most beggerly still hee beggeth that almes that neuer an honest and wise man in the world would giue him For in all these points here named by him that Synagogue a long time hath taught and doeth still so contrary to the true and chast spouse of Christ that though nether seditiously nor contentiously yet vehemently and earnestly it is the part of all skilfull painfull and faithfull ministers of the Lord to cry out against her and her so doing And thus onely haue we and doe we labour to manifest vnto the world their corruptiō in doctrine in these points least thereby to their perdition they should be seduced by them Otherwise whatsoeuer he saieth neither he nor all his faction shall euer he able to proue against vs that we either deny any thing or hold otherwise of any point here reckoned vp by him then we haue most sound and good warrant for both out of the scriptures and out of the ancientest and soundest monuments of antiquity But where as he saith that we flatly deny that Christ hath here vpon earth any spouse or visible church to bee heard speake perceaued or seene hee shamefully and vntruely reporteth y◠of vs. Onely cōcerning the visibility or not visibility of Christs church this wee holde and teach that who be the right members thereof whereof properly she doeth consist it is not discerneable by humane sence but knowen onely vnto God and vnto those to whom God giueth spirituall sences to discerne it withall but if otherwise by the church of Christ here vpon earth be vnderstoode generally all those that by outwarde profession seeme vnto men to be thereof then we hold and confesse that Christ hath alwaies had here vpō earth since the beginning and wil haue to the ende a visible spouse and church to be both heard speake perceiued seene though not alwaies alike nor of al sorts kinde of men as I haue shewed at large in the first and fourth chapters of my answere to Albine The onely thing that we deny is that it alwaies hath beene and euer must be so visible and apparent both for multitude and gouernment that euery one should be able therby not only to discerne it but frō time to time downe frō Christ to the ende of the world to name the principall persons by whose orderly succession one to another wtout interruption it hath bene cōtinued in one place or other Now hereupon to infer that wee simply deny it to be heard seene or perceiued argueth that they that doe so are growen so grosse that they can neither heare see nor perceiue that there is any difference betwixt the maner of being of a thing the simple being therof Iohn that neuer taught that the Church of Christ here vpō earth should neither be heard seen or perceiued yet teacheth Re. 12. that she would be driuē by persecution of the dragō into the wildernes where for a time in cōparison that she was before she should be hiddē Christ that hath taught vs that hel gates shal neuer preuaile against his church Mat. 16. yet foresheweth that towards his secōd cōming true faith should hardly be found vpō earth Luke 18. And doe we not read 2 Thessalonians 2. and 1. Timothy 4. to that end that before that day there shall be a great departing from the faith which by that which we read Reuelations 17 and 18. we may vnderstand shal be so great and so farre preuaile that the whore of Babylon there figuring vnto vs Antichrist and his kingdome shall haue vniuersality and all outward pompe that may be so on her side that shee shall make kings and people yea all nations drunke with the wine of her fornications During the fulfilling of which prophesies if it bee hard for some either to heare or see the Church or to vnderstand where shee is so that they cannot name the persons successiuely that she consisteth of no maruell For distance of time and place and ignorance or vnfaithfulnesse in Croniclers ioyned with a speciall care that Antichrist would alwaies by all likelyhoode haue to keepe from men all meanes to make thē to haue knowledge of these things least therby in the end he should fall into his cōsumption in respect of sundry former times and vs that liue now might make this impossible And yet he that should say so doeth not simply say as he here chargeth vs. But Gods name be blessed for it the Church yet was neuer so driuen into the wildernesse by the dragon or oppressed by Antichrist but as I haue shewed in my fourth Chapter of my foresaied answere to Albine some haue so heard seene and perceiued where she was and who were her true mēbers at al times that there was neuer time or state of the Church so bad but that we are able to nāe some of her frēds and where they liued or died in the profession of her trueth against antichristian abhominations As for the other points here reckoned vp by him gētle reader though he would make thee beleeue that they are such as in euery point as they teach thē now haue alwaies before beene taught of the true Catholicke church of Christ it is nothing so as in great part I haue shewed in answering of Albine as others thorowly vniuersally haue shewed of them all in seueral bookes writen against them for their Antichristiā doctrine therein Howbeit least by his words in the meane time whiles thou gettest leasure to peruse what we haue writen cōcerning these points thou shouldest cōceiue worse of our doctrine thē in any shew we deserue vnderstand that we preach against none of Christs sacraments neither doe we deny any sacrament of his in that sence to be a sacrament that he appointed it neither doe we deny Christs reall true most certain presence in the eucharist to the soule of the right receiuer onely a grosse presence of his body to the mouth of euery receauer fancied by thē cōtrary both to scripture the nature of a sacramēt of Christ himselfe is the presence that there we deny Indeed we as zealously as we can preach against their masse denying it to be any propitiatory sacrifice either for quicke or dead much lesse for both because we haue learned out of the epistle to the Hebrewes that only Christ is cōsecrate of his father as the fit Priest of the new testament in his owne person once for all to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the redemption of mankind that we learne by the words of the institution of this sacrament that it was neuer instituted to repeate that but with faith and thankesgiuing to make a commemoration thereof and rather to offer and deliuer Christ to vs thē
be trueths as fully and more fully then he or any of his side For proofe whereof cōsider that whereas the whole preface consists in the copie and edition that I had of his in print to aunswere of twenty two leaues hee spendes the first eight pages in prouing that Kinges Princes and rulers both ciuill and ecclesiasticall must carefullie administer iustice according to their callings and so bee as good shepherdes to them of whome they haue charge which who doubteth of or who euer denyed amongst vs yea we teaching as we do that Emperours Kings and Queenes in their kingdomes are carefully to looke to the keeping of both tables amongst their people and that they are next vnder God the supreme gouernours of their people aswel in causes ecclesiastical in commaunding for the good of the church and religion of Christ as in causes ciuill in commaunding for the common weale and the good estate thereof and they denying ciuil Magistrates any such authority in causes of the church doe not we far more fully then they teach them how and when they may be as good shepheards to their people Then by occasion of this former needlesse discourse hauing alleadged that Iohn 10. to proue that a good shepheard giueth his life for his sheepe and that Christ is that good sheepheard that knowes his sheepe and is knowen of them marke how in as many mo pages he inferreth that it is necessary that the sheepe know their shepheard that they heare his voice and geue no eare to the voice of a stranger and lastly that they follow and obey their shepheard which are things also truly taught and vnderstoode which we most gladly teach embrace and for lacke of which properties of Christes sheepe wee constantly hold aduouch that the Romish flocke these manie yeares hath rather beene a flocke of goates then of Christes true sheepe For if they knowe as they should that the name of the sheepheard Christ were the only name whereby commeth saluation Act. 4. and that in him all things are prepared already Math. 22. they would not set vp to themselues so many names of persons and thinges besides him nor hold that so many thinges besides those that are already prepared in him are left to thēselues and others to that ende to prepare as they doe And if they did so heare his voice and refuse to heare the voice of strangers as Christes sheepe ought there neither would nor could be so many strange doctrines yea contrary doctrines to the voice of Christ set downe in the Canonical scriptures receaued maintained amongst them as ear I haue done with Albine I shall shew there are Likewise such followers obeiers of the voice of Christ are they haue they beene for these 4. or 500. yeares speaking vnto them in his word writtē by the mouth of his true church aūcient sound pastours thereof as that none euer in a number of most weighty and materiall matters more directly contraried his voice then they Whither I haue iust ground and proofe for my thus saying I referre thee to that which I haue written in confutation of Albines discourse cap. 4.17.29 36. And yet such is the folly of this nameles preface wryter that hauing thus noted these to be the properties of Christs true sheepe as though by and by without any further proofe at all it ought of necessity to bee granted that he and his side had all these properties and that we of our side had neuer a one of them all but were notoriously branded with the contrary markes he triumpheth and insulteth ouer vs spending all the rest of his preface in railing vpon vs and in perswading his reader to forsake vs and to ioyne with him his So that all the rest of his preface is builded vppon a most shamefull and impudent begging of all these points that they know Christ aright heare his voice no other obey him and follow him most orderly and also of these that his begging of that former may seeme the more reasonable that their doctrine is sound hauing countenāce of al auncient holy fathers of the cōsent of al Christiā Regions prescription of time that their prelates are al prelates lawfully called hauing right succession euery thing that they should haue to credit them withal therefore that they are such as Christ hath commaunded to to be obeyed as himselfe and lastly that their church is the holie Catholike church the obedient spouse of Christ and mother of all the faithfull and that therefore it is damnation to depart frō her or to refuse to obey any of her lawes and ordinances that with vs all things are quite contrary All these things his reader must graunt him suppose to be true for he hath nothing at all to proue any one of these besides swelling words of vanity and lofty arrogant bragging that these things are so And therefore al these things being the things in question betwixt vs and such as we all most constantly and iustly haue alwaies denied as our writings of these points heretofore now this answere of mine in sundry places thereof make manifest to any indifferēt reader thereupon it must needes follow that whatsoeuer he hath alleadged either out of scripture or doctor to perswade his reader to obey their church their prelates their ordinances traditions is shamefully abused For compare the times when the persons whereof those things were written their doctrine and doings with these and you shall finde witnes the scriptures thēselues and all sound antiquity as much differēce betwixt their church prelates doctrine and ordinances and them of whom those places are to be truely vnderstoode as there is betwixt light and darkenesse the pure Church of Christ and the impure Synagogue of Antichrist And also all his exhortation vpon these grounds to ioine with them and all his bitter inuectiues against vs for refusing so to doe is as a building in the aire without all foundation And therefore is thus easilye pulde downe and laide vnderfoote as a thing more meete to bee trampled vpon as a thing of nothing then by any to bee at all regarded And yet as foule a fault as this is in him it is common to him with all wryters of his side and most notoriously with this Iohn de Albine before whose booke hee hath set this his preface It may bee seeing his author whom hee ment to publish and of whom he had such an opinion that hee accounted him a notable discourser against heresies to haue such a grace and dexterity in stuffing out his booke almost with nothing else but with this beggerly begging the maine questions alwaies that he thought his preface should not be suteable and fit to be set before such a learned discourse vnlesse it were garnished bewtified with the same popish grace And if this were his reason then which I am sure hee hath no better hee is to bee borne withall for what
they haue deceiued the simple people vvithall vnderstande welbeloued in the Lord vvhosoeuer thou art first for transubstantiation the very archpiller of their Synagoge that if they bee very busie to seeke out who first gaue inkling of such a matter they shall finde indeede the originall thereof not to come from Marke the Euangelist or anie of his fellowshippe but from one Marke a notable Magitian and filthie heretique of the broode of Valentinian that liued as it seemeth by the stories in the raigne of Antoninus Pius about one hundred and fifteene yeares after Christ For Epiphanius in his thirty foure heresie noteth and when hee hath done plentifully confirmeth it out of the first booke of Irenaeus and his ninth chapter against the heresies of ValeÌ„tiniaÌ„ others that this same heretique by his enchaÌ„tmeÌ„t hauiÌ„g first caused a cup of white wine to beare the colour of blood made his followers beleeue that by his inuocation over it it was so traÌ„substantiated into blood that seing that he had giveÌ„ thaÌ„ks ouer it long praied it might be thought of them that gratiaÌ„ quae est super vniuersa sanguinem suum instillâsse in illud poculum that is that grace that is aboue all things had poured his bloud into that cup by which meanes wheÌ„ he had made them in admiration of him desirous to drink thereof he giues it them with great deuotion solemnity of words so wonderfully bewitched many Indeed this fellow may very wel be allowed for the first auÌ„cient fouÌ„der of this point of doctrin for there being not any one point of popery wherein Antichrist hath more manifestly shewed him selfe coÌ„trary to Christ then in this as in truth there is not because for the establishing vse of this he is both spoiled of the true nature of a maÌ„ office of the only sufficieÌ„t priest of the new testament to offer himselfe once for all for the redemption of his church who can be fitter then this auncient enchauÌ„ter Marcus to be the first author and patrone hereof especially seing Irenaeus speaking of him in the eight chapter of the foresaid booke as it should seeme secretly directed by the spirit of prophesy saith thas he was verè praecursor Antichristi that is truely Antichrists fore-runner Yet how notably soeuer this Marcus caused many simple persons in his time to beleeue his transubstaÌ„tiation of wine into the bloud of Grace yet he was so baited detected confounded for his lewd and cosening dealing therein and in other points by Irenaeus Epiphanius and others that howsoeuer in the meane time Antichrist his successour was busie vnder Leo the 9. in a councell at Vercellis and after in the councell of Lateran vnder Nicholas the 2. about the yeare of the lord 1060. in bringing Berengarius to recantatioÌ„ to reuiue againe this doctrine of transubstantiation yet as their own friends confesse namely Tonstall in his booke of the sacrament of Christs body and bloud it could not nor was not decreed for a certaine and vniuersall doctrine before Innocent the thirds time in another councell at Lateran about the yeare of Christ 1215. before which couÌ„cel the Greeke Church had separated themselues from the Latine and therefore it being a point of Doctrine not receaued as Catholike before that diuision neuer since could it be receaued in the Greeke Church for any Catholike truth How can it then haue countenance of all Christian Regions and times Bertram Berengarius the Waldenses in sundry places by writing speaking opposed themselues against it as witnesseth Bertrams book of the sacrameÌ„t the condemnation of Berengarius opinion about it at Vercellis and the articles of the Waldenses Yea a little before and in this Pope Innocents time a certaine people about Iohn de Albines Tolossa called Albigenses and that in great mighty multitudes as the French Cronicles shew denied reall presence of Christ vnder or with the outward elements in this sacrament in somuch as great warres were raised to subdue them But of this matter also I haue spoken so much chapter eleuenth 17. that here I neede thereof say no more Now touching Images or Idols and the worshipping thereof I must needes confesse that for their dealing about them they may very well pretend both antiquity and vniuersality For it appeares in all stories and in the scriptures themselues that that way not onely all other nations but also euen the people of the Iewes themselues haue beene alwaies wonderfully giuen to pollute and defile themselues but withall it appeares that god in his word writteÌ„ against no abhominatioÌ„ hath cried out either more often or more vehemently then against this But amongst Christians the first that we reade of that worshipped the image of Iesus or any other was Marcellina a filthy companion of the phantasticall heretique Carpocrates but both in Epiphanius heresi 27. and in Augustine ad Quod vult deum we finde this both noted condemned amongst other detestable errours of the Carpocratians This Carpocrates liued in the beginning of the empire of Antoninus Pius Anicet then being Bishoppe of Rome about the yeare of the lord 109. And in Origens time who died as Spanhemensis saith in the yeare of Christ 261. hee in his seuenth book to Celsus noteth that then the Christians neither suffered images nor pillers to be worshipped Likewise in Arnobius aduersus gentes who florished about the 300. yeare after Christ it appeares that the geÌ„tils obiected that as a matter of disgrace against the ChristiaÌ„s that they neither had nor worshipped any such But so far of was it that the christiaÌ„s theÌ„ thought it any disgrace vnto theÌ„ that OrigeÌ„ in the place before quoted saith that the Iewes ChristiaÌ„s hearing the law Exo. 20. not only refuse images of god choosing rather to die then to make or worship any such adding this as a reasoÌ„ that god is inuisible without body And likewise Clemens Alexandrinus who florished 100. yeares before Origen in his exhortation to the heathen confesses willingly this their obiection to be true that Christians had no images that might be discerned by sence but onely by vnderstanding because to vse that deceitfull art saieth he was forbid theÌ„ Yea and that Christians and their teÌ„ples might continue still free froÌ„ them in Constantines time in a councel held in Spaine at Eliberis can 36. it was decreed thus It hath pleased vs to determine that no pictures should be suffered in churches least that which is worshipped or adored should be painted in walles Isid tom 1. coÌ„ci And therfore Epiphaniê° 55. yeares after this councell about the yeare of Christ 390. as it appeares in his Epistle to Iohn of IerusaleÌ„ finding in the entrance of the church at Anablatha in that Iohns dioces the image of a maÌ„ pictured on a cloth there haÌ„ging puld it downe tare it asuÌ„der writing to the foresaid Iohn about it though as he confessed it seemed vnto him that it was made for
the picture of Iesus or sōe of the Saints yet he cōdemneth it as contrary both to the scriptures and Christian Religion therefore perswades him not to suffer any such thing any more for it became him to banish such superstition which was vnseemely for the Church of Christ Yea Lactantius lib. 2 cap. 19. of his diuine institutions saieth flatly that their can be no Religion where there is an image he liued florished in the yeare 320. And S Augustine who liued after al these before named for he died not before the yeare 430. de consensu Euangelistarum lib. 1. cap 2. writeth that they euen deserue to erre which seeke Christ and his Apostles not in bookes but in painted wals Yea Gregory the great as they cal him Bishop of Rome though thē the painting of stories for an ornamēt of the church was thought tolerable yet he lib. 7. Epist 109. lib. 9. Epist 9. to Serenus slatly cōdemneth the adoring worshipping of images And whereas by occasiō of this tolerating of historicall painting of them through the superstition corruption of mans nature within short time by litle litle the worshipping of thē grew to be too much vsed liked of many especially in these Westerne parts of the Bishops of Rome thēselues by the yeare of Christ 700. the Emperour Leo the third in a coūcell held at Constantinople consisting of 330. Bishops there with the consent of that coūcell decreed that they should be quite remoued out of churches burnt seuerely he punishes those which notwithstanding would perseuere in the worshipping of them And the same course tooke his successour Constantine by another great coūcell held their ratifying the former two Emperours more succeeding him notwithstāding al this while the Bishops of Rome with stood thē what they might decreed as fast for the retaining worshipping of thē as they could as it appeares in Sigebert Blōdus others Howbeit though also in the time of Irene the nonage of her sonne Constātine in the east through the suggestiō of Therasius Bishop of Constantinople they got there a councell helde at Nicea consisting of three hūdreth fifty Bishops where to currie fauour againe with the Bishops of Rome who vpō the former occasiō as it appears in Sigebert others had bene a shrewd traiterous meanes to cause these westerne parts to reuolt frō the empire they decreed according to their humour for the honour of images Yet Africk Asia the greater could neuer be brought to receiue those canōs there made yea that more is though by that time the Pope had made Charles the great very much beholding to him in being the means to trāslate the empire of the west vnto him so were those canōs in this point misliked cōtradicted here in thes western parts that a coūcel in his time by his meās as the Emperour being called at Francford whereunto came many Bishops of Italy Frāce Germāy other cūtries yet there euē for this point was that coūcel of Nice reiected cōdēned as a wicked councell witnes both Regino lib. 2. anno 794. also one Hinckmare not lōg after those times Archbishop of Rhemes writing against another of his name thē Bishop of Iandune or Lauedune as some cal it ca. 20. where he for further proofe of this to be true writeth that the Bishops their assembled caused a booke of purpose to be writen sent to Rome cōteining at large a cōfutatiō of al the reasons vsed for images at Nicea which in his yoūg yeares he saw which the keeper of the Popes library Augustine Steuchus cōfesses to lie there writē in anciēt caracters de donatione Constantini lib. 2. cap. 59. nu 60. And Roger Houodē who liued 400. years ago in his cōtinuatiō of Bedeas story in the year 792. shewing how Charles sēt the canōs of that coūcel of Nice hither wherin as he saith it was decreed that images ought to bee adored which the church of God vtterly detesteth reports that one Albirus here wrote an epistle against that determinatiō maruelously grounded vpō the scriptures which he caried into France as he saith in the name of our Bishops by occasion whereof the rather it should seeme shortly after Charles thought meete to call the foresaid coūcell at Francford All these things notwithstanding neuer were images pillers and crosses more idolatrously decreed to be worshipped their nor euer were idols more grosly adored of heretiques or the very pagans and heathen then they haue bene yet be of superstitious Papists For they crouch kneele vnto them present offerings before them they run a pilgrimage vnto them and teach that they are to be worshipped with that honour that is due vnto them whose images and monuments they be though in an other manner not for their owne sakes but for theirs whose remembrances they be But indeed if in worshipping of them they did not principally respect the Images themselues why should there not be as great deuotion as many pilgrimages as great offerings presented yeelded to the image of Christ Mary or of any other aswell in one place as in an other Well howsoeuer they will do wickedly herein and when they haue done seeke to colour the matter such in truth all the worlde sees herein hath beene their dealing that Euthymius in his panoply had neuer more cause to name the Armenians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is Idolaters to the crosse for their grosse and superstitious worshipping of it then we haue generally to count and call the Romanists flat idolaters for their behauiour towards it and other images also Thus then hoping by this that I haue said cōcerning this point that not onely thou maiest see goodreader when and how this point of popery first came in but how and by whom it hath beene oppugned but consequently also that the Romish church is herein destitute both of scripture fathers consent of Christian regions and al that she bragges of let vs see if wee can shew the like concerning the other point of forced single life vpō the clergy which she holds to be so necessary and holy an ordinance as that by no meanes without deadly sin it may be transgressed Euen in this as in the former if we search the monumentes of antiquity well we shal finde that they haue very auncient heretiques to be their first fathers leaders For the Tacianists commonly cald Encratites of their abstinence from mariage certaine other thinges who began about the yeare one hundred forty two were great condemners of mariage as appeares in Aug. ad Quodvult Deum in Epiphanius writing of them Heresi 46. After them spronge vp the Manichees who in like manner were enemies to mariage but not so vniuersally as the former for they permitted it to others and restraine onely their clergy from it whō they calde their elect as August witnesseth of them Epist 74. but indeed as many as
and his Priests and by the rest to set vp themselues in the very seat of Antichrist They pretend the glory of Christ and of Peter and Paul in the doctrine of the supremacy but it is the feeding of their owne pompous tyraÌ„nous ambition that in trueth they seeke in it In their swarmes of Monkeries Frieries they pretend wilfull pouerty and an vtter forsaking of the world and yet all the world seeth that to maintaine themselues therein in idlenes belly-cheare and al kinde of worldly and carnal pleasure they had houses like Princes and reueÌ„nues maintenaunces like great Lordes of the worlde They haue pretended that they vvould haue Emperours and Kinges in no case to giue Bishoprickes and benefices to preuent Simony whereas their practise hath made it cleare that their Popes haue taken that into their owne hands but to make the clergy more to stand at their deuotion and lesse at their Princes and that they theirs might vse that occupation and trade of Simony as most proper vnto themselues They pretende charity and compassion in their pardons and indulgences deuotion and care to relieue soules by their masses dirges and trentals and an intent to fray meÌ„ froÌ„ sinne by their doctrine of Purgatory but euery maÌ„ seeth that it is onely money or money worth that hereby they fish for The vnity of the church is pretended when they seeke to establish most their owne tyraÌ„ny the honour and glory of the church they say they seeke when it is most plaine that it is onely their ovvne glory and honour they care for In the maintenaunce of their doctrine of transubstantiation they vvould seeme marueilous deuout and religious in vrging of the letter and in captiuing their ovvne sences and reason thereunto whereas indeede that course they take that so their Priestes may grovve to honour and vvealth vvhiles thereby the people are made beleeue that they can make and offer their redeemer for the saluation of quicke and deade Deuotion to the Saints they pretend in teaching that they are to bee prayed vnto and vvorshipped but therein their deuotion is like vnto Demetrius his for Diana of Ephesus for if it were not for the gaynes they get by offerings vnto their shrynes they vvould not bee so hoate therein Their doctrine of penaunce caries a shevv of mortification but it is but thereby to triumph ouer the people at their pleasures and in the ende to make a gaine by changing their penaunce or by making them to beleeue that they vvill relieue them by their prayers pardons and masses To conclude I dare bee bolde to say that there is neuer a proper point of popery but the practise and profession of it would quickly grow very cold if that the maintenance thereof made not either directly to aduaunce their wordly credit with their followers or their lucre and commodity And therefore thou maiest see euen by this whatsoeuer they bragge of their Church and Religion that euen for these three reasons they both of euery wise state consequently also of thy selfe Christian Reader ought to be shunned and auoided These things then that I haue saied well considered and remembred I will now no longer detaine thee from taking a view of that which this notwithstanding Albine hath writeÌ„ either in the defence of this his Religion or to the disgrace of ours requesting onely this at thy hands that as thou goest thou wouldest take the paines without partiality to reade and confer that which I haue writen to answere him withall Chapter by Chapter with his booke And thus hoping that thou wilt doe I commend thee and thy study therein to the direction and good protection of God my selfe vnto thy harty praiers vnto him in my behalfe Thine in the Lord THOMAS SPARKE A Notable discourse plainely and truely discussing who be the right ministers of the Catholique Church writen against Caluin and his disciples by one Master Iohn de Albine called de Seres Archdeacon of Tolossa in France Duaci per Iohannem Bellerum 1575 The first Chapter CALVIN your Patriarch doth lay to our charge a great and an outragious boldnesse saying according to his opinion that we haue introduced or taken in hand the ministery of Iesus Christ without being called to it by him that did institute Aaron in the saied estate And because that he himselfe can better then I expresse his coÌ„plaint or accusation I thinke it best to set forth his owne writings which according to his disciples opinions are of great force vertue His words as you may read are these Seeing that the Papists heare S. Paul say Jn his booke of Jnsti cap. 18. Art 58. Hebr. 5. that no person ought to take vpon him or vsurpe the name and the honour of Priesthood but he that is called to it as Aaron was And that Iesus Christ tooke it not vpon himselfe but did obey the vocation of his father either they ought to shew that God is the Author and institutour of their priesthood or els they must confesse that they are not called of God seeing that of their owne boldenes they haue taken it in hande These are Caluins wordes by the which the reader may gather that Caluin doth enioyne vs to render him an accoumpt of our vocation And although that it be so L Si quis ad si ad leg Jul. de nil publ c. that by the Ciuill law one ought to try the right of the possession before he come to demauÌ„de it the spoyle as we are to him and his fellowes as touching our Temples and reueÌ„nues in many places ought to be restored againe before the suite proceede Yet releasing this that the law doeth alowe vs we are content to answere to his demaunde adding this request thereto that both you that are his disciples and he doe make readie your papers to answere vs the like as touching yours But before I proceede in mine answere vnder correction of a man that thinkes to haue such good eies me seemeth that his argument is but very simple to say that if we cannot shew that God is the authour of our Priesthoode that we should be constrained to confesse that it is not of God a Sophistry in taking that as spoken of your maner of calling to your Priesthood which he spoke of the Priesthoode it selfe Numb 16. 2. Paâ—al 26. seeing that without being called we take it vpon vs. For what reason is there I pray you in this for although it were so that of our owne priuate power and authority without being called wee should take it vpon vs it should not follow by that that it is not of God For by that reason one might say that God was not the authour of the priesthoode of Aaron seeing that Dathan Abyron and Ozias tooke it vpon them of their owne boldnes the which is not true And as touching this that he sayeth that our order of Priesthood is not of God we will proue that false
is the thing that Caluin telleth you you must shew or els you must confesse your calling is not of God seing it is but to an office of your owne boldnes deuised and taken in hand And yet this being a thing which to iustifie your calling it stood you vpon most in the best maner you could to haue proued yea without the profe wherof all that euer you haue saied or can say of neuer so ordinarie a comming thereunto is merelie vaine friuolous yet you saie you will not meddle with it here at this time but you put it of to another place not once finding time place in this your discourse to speake a word of it againe Wherein at the first entrance in the eies of the wise you haue giuen your Priesthood a greater wound then al that you haue saied concerning the lawfulnes of your vocation thereūto can euer heale vp againe For this thing being the most pertinent material thing that could be your drift and purpose in this discourse considered for you to haue laboured about as about the soule of your cause to giue al the rest life how could you perswade your selfe but that in thus shifting of this though so thrust vpon you by your owne citing of Caluins words but that euerie one would straight iudge that you did it not because you had no will to haue proued it but because you feared that your skil would not serue you substātially to doe it And therefore in pollicy you thought it more wisdōe thus to passe it ouer as though you could saie enough thereof if you list then by entring into it to lay open your weakenes to your frends in so great a matter at your first entrance into your booke Howsoeuer you haue thought it the safest waie in this place to say nothing hereof for sauing your credit to make shew as though you would say enough in some other in the mean time euē here the nature of your popish Priesthood considered I confidentlie aduouch that neither you nor all you togither can euer proue indeede that it is of God For the Scripture teacheth vs that Christ hath an euerlasting Priesthood and that he executed that office here and doth stil there where he is for his Church so perfectlie that he hath this prerogatiue that he needeth no successors to cōtinue his office as the Priests of Aaron had nor anie other either to offer any new or to iterate that sacrifice which he offred himselfe for the saluation of mā he hath offred one so perfect so perfectly once for al He. 7.23.24 10 10. c. which prerogatiues the massing Priesthoode robbeth him of first in that they will bee his successours in the office of Priesthoode and thē in that they take vpō thē to offer him again in sacrifice to his father for the sinnes as they say both of the quick dead most blasphemously make thēselues in their offering him againe to his father mediators betwixt him and his father praying him as it appeareth in there masse-book that he would fauourably looke vpō and receiue those hoasts which they there offer vnto him for the soules of such and such Ex missâ pro defunctis ex secretis Werefore I dare be bolde to say that so far of is it that their Priesthoode is of Gods ordinaunce that most certainly it is of Sathans owne deuising and is most iniurious to the death and passion of Christ and therefore Antichristian Howbeit seeing you haue left Caluins assertion that it is not of God standing without any refutation and so are contented vntil you better aduise your selfe what to say against it to let it stand still in the meane season to render vs account of your cōming vnto it vpon condition that wee will make ready our papers when you haue answered vs to answere you how we come by our Ministery I am content to accept of this your condition and so to heare first what you can say for the iustifying of your vocation and after when and where you cal for it to yeeld you an account of ours But then in the meane time I must put you in minde and pray the gentle reader to marke it that for any thing you haue saied yet Caluins assertion against your office of Priesthoode it selfe that it is not of God standeth in full force You write that you are called to this estate according to the ordinary way that is say you by the right succession of Bishops pastours and by the cōtinuāce of one catholique faith deriued from the Apostles to our daies wtout the interruption of it vniuersally This you say indeede but what haue you either here or els where in this your notable discourse for so either you or your frends cal it brought vs to proue this you cite here Mat. 5. Eph. 4. a place out of Esay with is there Cap. 62.6 though in your booke it be quoted Sap. 61. but neither any of these nor al these togither do proue your saying to be tru For taking the places in your own sēce the things therby proued are only these first that the tru Catholick faith hath alwaies so shined that it hath giuē light at al times in one place or other to thē within the house that is that be wtin the true Catholick Church to such as be neare thereūto and within the sight thereof and that Christ wil haue continually euen vntill his second comming and vntill his Church bee growen to her ful perfection his trueth continued in his Church by faythfull Pastours and Ministers and to this ende serueth also in your opinion your similitude taken from a materiall building which cannot be perfected without continuance of workemen vntill it bee done which yet caryeth with it a dissimilitude euen in the thing wherein you resemble it vnto the Church For we see by daily experience that in material buildings if they be great there are often tymes great and many interruptions and ceasings of the workemen and yet in the ende the building well enough prefected But bee it that these places proue these things and that your vnapt similitude hath no vnfitnes in it what is all this to the purpose doth it hereupon follow that you come to your offices of Priests Bishops as you haue saied Because Christ hath alwaies will to the ende preserue and cōtinue the light of his trueth by the faithful ministery of some in his church which is a thing which we alwaies haue constātly firmely beleeued to be true because he hath had hath and wil euer vnto the ende haue a holy catholicke Church against which the gates of hel neither hath at any time doeth nor euer shall vniuersally preuaile shall it hereupon follow that therefore your Priests Bishops are the mē whom Christ hath alwaies and yet doth vse to this ende or that amongst thē there hath alwaies beene the right succession in one Catholicke faith Their
and due confirmation of the other But I cannot be perswaded that such was your owne simplicity as once to imagine that the fift of Mathew Ephes 4 Esaie 62. or any other proofe that you vse to that ende did serue at all to proue your entraunce to haue bene as you saied I am therefore flat of this minde and so must euery man of any wit and discretion be vnlesse you will giue vs leaue to thinke that you had neither of both in thus reasoning that this was your Romish and Popish cunning herein finding your selfe vnable to proue any of these foure points that your entrance is by the ordinary waie that your Bishops and Priests are right Bishops and Priests that you haue had from the Apostles right succession and that also now and alwaies you haue beene in possession of the Catholick trueth you thought it good confidently as though their were no controuersie to be made with you about any of these to aduouch that you had all these to iustifie your maner of comming to your offices And so perswading your selfe that you should meete with such franke and liberall Readers as would easily vpon this your bolde begging graunt you all these foure for an almes taking them for giueÌ„ as sure as though you had them already in your beggers budget euen for and at the very first asking you goe on as you doe supposing that your Reader is already wonne to this to imagine that all and euery place of scripture that speakes of right Bishops and pastours and of their lawful calling succeeding one another froÌ„ age to age in the trueth must needes be vnderstoode of yours But with this conceit phantesy of yours howsoeuer you may preuaile with men of your owne humour and complexion that haue their wits benummed bluÌ„dered with the drunken enchaunted cup of the garish whoar of Babylon whiles you take this course you set your selfe but forth vpon a scaffolde to bee laught at and derided as one that hath neither sounde Religion nor common reason left him of those that are indeede wise sober and godly Seeing therefore you haue saied so much and proued so little well enough might I euen with the detection in this sort of your vanity leaue you as sufficiently answered for any thing you haue saied concerning this point But because I haue not taken in â—and onely so to answere you as might be sufficient to take awaie â—â—e power and force from any thing you haue set downe in this â—our discourse to winne any more to bee of your iudgement then â—ee alreadie but also so as by the grace of God may bee likely to â—ake your owne frendes ashamed of your dealing in their cause 〈◊〉 will both in this throughout your booke for the further beneâ—it of the Reader take the paines to follow you froÌ„ steppe to steppe â—how crooked soeuer your pathes be so disclose lay open before â—im not onely the vanity of your proceeding but also the vntrueth â—nd grosse impietie of your words and sayings Wherefore whereas to iustify your maner of comming by your â—ffices you first saie you come thereunto by the ordinarie way the Reader is to consider that through the ambiguttie of your speech you seeke wilfullie to abuse him For you could not bee so simple but you knewe and remembred well enough that as there is a lawfull ordinarie waie ordeined and allowed by God and therefore accordinglie practised in his Church whereby his Church officers should enter into their callings whereby if you could haue proued yours to haue come to theirs you had indeede iustifyed their entrance thereupon so haue there beene in tract of time through the boldnes of men to alter Gods ordinance and therein to preferre the way deuised by themselues before that which the Lord himselfe had prescribed many waies both inuented and practised which though they haue by custome and long continuance of time growen to be too ordinarie yet for all that they haue beene and yet are too bad by anie of which though in respect of one or other of them you maie truelie saie yours haue entred by the ordinarie waie yet you haue saied nothing to proue their maner of entraÌ„ce to be holie good and of God But to speake plainelie and yet no more then I can proue out of your owne Cronicles your verie Bishops of Rome of whose lawfull and ordinarie calling you vse to brag most and of whose lawfull entrance and calling if they bee such heades of the Church as you pretend the lawfull calling and authoritie of all other inferiour Church officers is deriued and depends for manie hundreth yeares a number of them haue so got to their Prelacies that vnlesse you account those in your sence to haue come to their places by the ordinarie waie that in compassing of them haue broken all good order both of God and man I wonder with what face you durst thus indefinitely generally say of all your Bishops and pastours that they haue bene called to their estate by the ordinary way For furious braules monstrous and long contentious force of armes and cruell bloudshed haue beene the ordinary waies whereby a great multitude of them haue entered as namely and for exaÌ„ple these Symachus Boniface the second Pelagius the first Boniface the third ConoÌ„ Sergius the first Zozimus Paul the first Constantine the second Eugenius the first Hadrian the second Formosus Leo Benedict Gelasius the second Honorius the second Innocent the second Gregorie the tenth Nicholas the third Clement the fifth Vrban the sixth and sundry others Bribery also hath beene the ordinary way whereby many of them haue clymed into that chaire as namely Iohn 13. Boniface the 7. Gregory the sixth Siluester the third and most of late daies NicromaÌ„cy art magicke and plaine barganing with the deuill for it haue beene ordinary waies also whereby a shamefull sort of them haue compasseâ— that place For from Syluester the second vnto Gregory the seuenth including them there being an eighteene or nineteene Popes your owne Cardinal Benno shewes that the greater number of theÌ„ so came to their roomes and since wee reade that Alexander the sixth got it the same way It appeares also in the saied Benno that the greater nuÌ„ber of the Popes from Syluester the second to Gregory the seuenth were poisoned or at least by violent means dispatched by such as for theÌ„selues their frends thought good so to make the waie readier thereuÌ„to for themselues or some others whom they fancied And to the same ende other authours write that very many of them beside haue in like maner from time to time since beene sodenly vnpoped that others the sooner might bee popt into their roomes Yea Genebrard a late writer and a great frend to the Roman Religion and Bishops in his fourth booke and tenth age in his Cronology by the plaine euideÌ„ce of the truth is inforced to confesse that from the yeare 884. to the yeare
extraordinarily as he seeth need thereof is and may be such effectuall seede to beget childrē vnto God and so holesome foode to feede thē yea euen vntil they grow to a full age perfectiō in Christ Iesus that though their teachers cānot shew for the defence of their calling who alwaies successiuely in person and place haue gone before them yet euen this trueth of their doctrine doeth proue them and their people to be Apostolique Churches whereas though they could doe the other without this it were nothing And because my aduersary seemeth in this point otherwise to make great reckoning of the testimony of Irenaeus Tertullian and Augustine I will stande to their iudgement in this whither to succeede the Apostles in doctrine be not sufficient without the other locall and personall demonstrable succession and not this without that Irenaeus in his fourth booke and forty three Chapter teacheth vs onely to obey those Elders in the Church which from the Apostles with the succession of their Bishopricks haue receiued Charisma veritatis certum secundum placitum patris that is the certaine gift of trueth according to the pleasure of the father for as for all other whatsoeuer they pretend for he excepteth nothing he there immediatly sheweth that absistunt a principali successione that is they are gone from the principall succession and therefore must be suspected And Tertullian in the very same place de praescriptionibus haereticorum quoted by Albine after in his 9. Chapter immediatly after the words there cited by him wherein he calleth for personall succession hath added these Cōfingant tale aliquid haeretici c. but let heretiques deuise some such thing for after blasphemy what is not lawfull for them saieth hee but though they doe faine some such thing yet it shall nothing preuaile thē For their doctrine compared with the Apostolique doctrine by the diuersity cōtrariety thereof wil pronoūce that it hath neither Apostle nor Apostolique mā to be the authour therof For saith he as the Apostles taught not amōgst themselues contrary things so neither did Apostolique men teach contrary things to those that the Apostles taught After this sort therefore let them be prouoked by those Churches which though they cannot produce either Apostle or Apostolique man to bee the founder thereof in that they were long after planted as dayly there bee tamen in eâdem fide conspirantes non minùs Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae yet they agreeing with thē in one faith are no lesse to be reputed Apostolicke Churches then they that were planted by the Apostles What can be plainer then this to shewe that though our Churches could not satisfie his request in pleading the former succession that yet if they can shewe this that they agree with the Apostles in doctrine that they therefore are far rather Apostolicke then they that can produce the former without this And though Augustine in his 165. epistle and also in his fourth Chapter against the Manichees epistle which they call their foundation remembred by Albine cap. 6. doe there seeme to make great reckoning of personall succession yet when he had shewed of what force that and some other reasons were with him he preferres trueth indeede warranted by the scriptures before them all Wherefore what I haue saied concerning the vanitie of their brag of personall and locall succession either to iustifie theirs or to disgrace our Church or ministrie is sufficientlie proued But all this labour will Albine say I might haue spared for he spake not simplie of succession but expressely of right succession of Bishops pastours and to shew what he ment thereby he expresly added the continuance of one Catholicke faith deriued from the Apostles to our daies without the interruption of it vniuersally at anie time Moreouer I confesse that sundry times after so forcible was the trueth in this point with him that in wordes he confesseth that personall and locall succession without continuance in this trueth is not the thing that he vrgeth and yet for all this this that I haue saied of this point is not needlesse For besides that fewe of his opinion will bee brought to confesse thus much this both in others and in himselfe in sundrie Chapters following maie be obserued that when this confession is made by anie of thē it is wroong frō them much against their wils for their shew of proofes run wholy for the magnifying of personall successiō to be the marke whereby true Churches and the ministers thereof maie vndoubtedly be discerned Againe if in this he spake as hee thinkes why doeth he make so much adoe about the personall and visible succession of Bishops and pastours and neuer ioines this issue with vs to trie out soundly and throughly whither they or we haue this Catholicke and Apostolicke trueth For herein onely lieth all the controuersie betwixt them and vs and this determined the question betwixt vs were quite ended let them once therefore but proue indeed that they are in possession of this soūd trueth and that alwaies downe from the Apostles they haue continued therein if we ioyne not streight with them and repent vs hartely of our departure from them accursed be we Yea if we cannot proue by cōparing their doctrine with that which wee are most sure the Apostles taught to be both diuerse from that and contrary vnto it vnderstanding by their doctrine as wee doe that which is proper to them and wherein we are against them let vs for euer leese our credit and cause Now for the decyding and determining of this great maine cōtrouersie wee appeale to the canonical scriptures which we knowe are most fit and sufficiēt iudges herein whereunto vnles they will deserue the name of lucifugae that is of shunners of the light which for the like cause Tertullian gaue the heretiques of his time de resurrect carnis they will be contented to bring their doctrine as to the touchstone Indeede in Tertullian and Iraeneus time the heretiques as it appeares in their workes for the triall of their opinions fled from this touchstone and when they were vrged herewith they behaued themselues the likest these our aduersaries that euer I saw For Iraeneus in his third booke and second Chapter testifieth thus of them cùm ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem conuertuntur ipsarum quasi non rectè habeant neque sint ex authoritate quia variè sunt dictae quia non possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciunt traditionem that is when they are reproued by the scriptures then they are turned streight into an accusation of them as though they were not right nor were of authority both because they are so set downe as that variably or diuersly they may be taken and because by them the trueth cannot be found out by those that are ignoraunt of tradition This notwithstanding it appeareth both there and elsewhere that he calleth them to this triall
Catholique faith Catholique Bishops succeeding one another When as indeede and trueth it is as impossible for you to proue that you haue any iust right to anie of these as it was for those heretiques But howsoeuer you make some beleeue you haue all these yet I say vnto you with Saint August De vnitate Ecclesiae against the Epistle of Petilian chap. 10. That euen Catholique Bishops are not to bee consented vnto if that anie where they be deceiued in thinking anie thing contrarie to the Canonicall Scriptures And therefore when all commeth to all and when otherwise you haue runne your selues out of breath in conclusion will you will you by these Canonicall Scriptures must it bee determined whither you haue anie right to anie of these or no. For if you appeale from them as indeede you doe to the Church and fathers they will sende you backe againe for the triall whither that which they speake bee true or no onelie to the Scriptures as it maie appeare vnto you not onelie by this one place which I haue cyted out of Augustine alreadie but also by a number such like places both to bee founde in him else where and also in others For you maie reade in the first booke and seuenth Chapter of Theodoret that when Constantine sawe great controuersies in the Church in the Nicene councell and perceaued that euerie seuerall companie bragged of the trueth and so also of the Church and fathers to bee on their side to ende all those controuersies he saied Ex diuinitus inspiratis oraculis quaeramus solutionem eorum quae proponuntur that is out of the oracles that are come by diuine inspiration thereby meaning the Canonicall Scriptures let vs seeke the determination of those thinges that are propounded and so they did And as Constantine the Emperour was of this minde so it appeareth that Athanasius was of the same For to Serap hee saieth Solum exsacris literis condiscas meaning that the holie Ghost is God sufficiunt enim documenta quae in illis reperias Thou maiest learne it onelie out of the holie Scriptures for the documents or lessons which thou maiest finde in them are sufficient And Origen vpon the 16. to the Romanes in his tenth booke agreeing herein with these saieth that onely by the holie Scriptures the difference of trueth from errour in the examination thereof is to bee discerned And yet more plainely the same Origen in his first Homilie vpon Ieremie writeth of necessitie wee must call for the testimonie of the Scriptures for our senses and declarations without them as witnesses haue no credit Well therefore saied Augustine de naturâ gratiâ cap. 61. Onelie to the holy Scriptures doe I owe my consent without refusall And therefore franckely hee telleth Hierome in his nineteenth Epistle that hee had learned to yeelde that honour onely to the Canonicall Scriptures to thinke that the authours thereof therein neuer erred Where he plainly sheweth vs by his example how we should reade his writings or the writings of any other father namely beleeuing that which they wrote no further then we see it by scripture confirmed or by probable argument not dissenting from the trueth And the like he teacheth yet more plainelie in his 111. 112. Epistles to Fortunatus and Paulinus in the proeme of the third booke of the Trinity Wherefore with the same Augustine I confidently say and write whither of Christ or of his Church or of any thing that appertaineth to our faith and life I will not say wee that are not to bee compared with him that saied though wee but as hee addeth though an Angell from Heauen shall preach any thing besides that yee haue receaued marke hee saieth not contrarie but besides in the legall and Euangelicall scriptures let him be accursed in his third booke against Petilian cap. 6. Yea your owne Vincentius in the very place quoted by you denyeth not but taketh it for graunted that the scriptures of themselues alone are sufficient for all things yea and more then sufficient Whereupon it is euident that Vincentius by the rule line and true sence of the Catholique Church that there he speaketh of vnderstandeth onely such a sence or line as agreeth best with the scriptures themselues and the right rules of the interpreting of them wherof more afterwards In the meane time howsoeuer Vincentius his meaning was Augustine an ancienter father more famous somewhat then he speaking of the rule of faith that alwaies in interpreting of the scriptures men must haue an eie vnto and be ruled by saith that it is euen that which is taught in plainer places of the scripture de doctrinâ Christia lib 3. cap. 2. de trini lib. 1. cap. 2. 4. Yea in the same Augustine de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 6. distrinc 37. c. Relatum we may reade noted out of ClemeÌ„t that the church is not to receaue any fence for the true seÌ„ce of the scriptures which caÌ„not be proued so to be out of the scriptures theÌ„selues And therefore all interpretation of scripture newe or ancient deliuered by the fathers in former time or receiued of their children of this later age must and ought according to this rule and line bee iudged catholique or not The IIII. Chapter Cant. 1. WHose discourse doeth make me remeÌ„ber the complaint that the soule doeth make vnto her Spouse Iesus Christ beeing both represented by Salomon and his legitimate spouse I pray thee saith she O my deare frend tell mee in what place thou doest lie and rest at noâ—â— daies for I would be very glad and desirous to follow the flockes of thy felowes The which is as much to say as if she meant thus I see many shepheardes in these mountaines which haue great abundance of sheepe I see those of the Roman Church I see Donatistes I see Nouatians or to speake of our time I see one flocke follow Luther another follow a The Caluenists Zuinglians and Sacramentaries are commonly amongst you taken for one yet here that the variety of opinions may seeme the greater you reckon them vp as three distinct sorts Zuinglius another follow Caluin another the Anabaptists another the SacrameÌ„taries so forth diuers others of whoÌ„ wheÌ„ I demauÌ„d particulerly Whose is this flocke they do al answer me It is of Christ euery 〈◊〉 saieth this is the catholicke Church euery one doeth say that he is his fellow that is to say as touching the guiding of his flocke Now it is not possible that they doe al teach the trueth considering how they varie among theÌ„selues therefore I doe desire thee to tell me where thou doest rest thy selfe at noone daies That is as much to say teach me which is the true Catholicke Church which doeth celebrate the true misterie of the Crosse which is the place where thou wast nailed at noone daies beeing nailed both handes and feete Heare now the answere of Iesus Christ If thou doest not know the place
suffering their Croniclers to mention them or else in causing them to deface them with strange name and false slaunders maketh it very hard yea if impossible no marueile you hauing the euidences whereby we should doe it for the most part a long time in your owne keeping to vse at your owne pleasure for vs to name from time to time the places and persons that haue alwaies succeeded one another for the continuance of our faith and Church But to returne againe to the consideration of this place of the Canticles further I saie as I saied before that you erre in alleadging this or any other place of the Scripture to proue that the Church of Christ may safely account those flockes in possession of the trueth and therefore to bee followed and those sheepheardes true sheepheardes and therefore meete alwaies to bee consented vnto that lineally downe from Christ can deduce their personall succession For so as I haue shewed in the first Chapter and it is not denyed of your selues sundry heretiques in their times haue done and can doe still If therefore you say you meane still that flocke and those sheepheardes that together with their visible personall succession haue alwaies beene in possession of the true ancient faith I answere first you begge still the thing in question in supposing that to haue beene alwaies ioyned with your flockes and sheepheards which we say and are able to proue they fell from many hundreth yeares ago Secondly I tell you once againe and now this time for all that you shall neuer bee able to proue but that both that personall succession may bee separated from trueth and also trueth from it and that therefore it is neither a certaine meanes to knowe the trueth nor the Church of Christ by Thirdly for your collection out of this place for the iustifying of your Church before ours because as you say from time to time for this thousand and fiue hundreth yeares you can shew the descent and continuance of yours and we cannot of ours for one hundreth yeares no not beyonde the yeare one thousand fiue hundreth and seuenteene we affirme that both in the one and in the other herein you write vntruely For first if your Church as it is now either in respect of the doctrine or gouernement thereof bee compared with the ancient Roman Church in the Apostles times or for many hundreth yeares after there is such diuersitie betwixt the one and the other as that the one beeing founde the chast spouse of Christ the other must needes bee proued to bee the very whoar of Babylon The simplicity of the ministerie that then was is turned amongst you into a pompous Lordly and more then Princely prelacy And then the Church was fedde with the pure worde of God conteyned in the Scriptures and so ledde thereby perfectly to vnderstand the will of God and with you as carefullie as may bee that is kept from her and in steede thereof shee is fedde with the dreames inuentions and traditions of men Then she was taught to account the name of Christ the onelie name whereby commeth saluation Act. 4. and therefore that in him all thinges were prepared Math. 22. and now with you besides him Saintes Angels your owne merites and the merites of others satisfaction in this life by your selues and after by others with a number of baser things must ioyne with him in the office of intercession betwixt vs and God and in the most glorious worke of our saluation as though hee either could not or would not go perfectly through with the worke of our saluation in himselfe and by himselfe but had so begunne it as that the accomplishing and perfecting thereof were left to these vaine and foolish by-meanes Then her faithfull doctours and teachers taught her that Christ in saying Hoc est corpus meum this is my body meant that it was a signe figure of his body as you may reade in Augustine against Adimantus the Maniche cap. 12. and in Tertull. against Marcion cap. 4. and in infinite places elsewhere in the ancient fathers and now contrary to nature yea to the verie nature of a sacrament contrary to the analogie of faith and good manners yours teach that those wordes being vttered by your Priestes thereupon followeth such a transubstantiation of the bread into his bodie that whosoeuer receiueth the outward parte of that sacrament receiueth in by his mouth the naturall bodie of Christ If thus I were disposed to go a long as farre as I might and to leade the reader to a full view of the difference betwixt the Romish Church that nowe is and that which hath beene I should euen therewith make a great booke But further of these differences I haue noted as you may reade Chapter 19. 20. and else where in this booke And Doctor Fulke against Stapletons Fortresse hath noted out of Bede and other authours of good credit 50. differences betwixt the church of the English Saxons in the time of Augustine the monke who was 600. yeares after Christ at the least and the Popish church that now is and infinite be the differences then betwixt the Church before in her puerer times and the Popish Synagogue now And therefore whatsoeuer you bragge neither you nor all your fellowes shall euer be able to proue indeede that your personall succession hath beene ioyned with the continuance of one and selfesame doctrine of Christ vnto these daies And to come to the other point therein I saie you write vntruely also For so far of is it that we graunt Luther to haue beene the first that preached the Gospell that wee now embrace and that wee cannot shewe by whom and where it was preached and receaued before that there is nothing more common with vs in answering this your obiection of newnes then to tell you that so farre of is it that it is newe indeede that it is the very ancient Religion and Gospell taught both in the olde testament and newe and therefore though it grieue you wee tell you that the ancient Patriarches and Prophets Christ and his Apostles taught the verie same and no other and all the ancient doctours and fathers as farre forth as they were able to iustify that which they taught by the Scriptures were sheepheardes of our church and teachers of our Religion Indeede we confesse that as Hilkiah the Priest in Iosiahs time 2. King 22. found the booke of God and was so a meanes to bring those thinges to light that by the wicked proceedings of Manasses Amon and others had for a certaine season lien hid So Luther in these late daies was a singuler instrument of God to reuiue and bring to light diuerse pointes of Christian faith which your Antichristian Synagogue had long laboured to smother and hide from the eies of the Church And yet hereupon it no more followeth that he was the first that preached our Religion then vpon the former it followed that Hilkiah was then first the
since Augustine the monkes comming into England as I haue saied and for 300 yeares after him your glorious succession must faile there are so many apparent differences for so long space at least betwixt the opinions that your pastors and doctors hold now and them that were held then Take heede therefore whiles you measure thus to vs and so seeke to disgrace them whose names we cite that the same be not measured to you againe so the necke of your visible Succession be broken to the perill of the life of your Church which draweth her breath thereby Now to come to your disgracing of our Church with the difference of opinion betwixt Luther and Zuinglius and your laying to our charge all the heresies that haue sprung vp since Luther began first to preach against you therein do you vs manifold wrong For who knoweth not that it is no strange or new thing to finde the deare seruants of God and the true members of Christs Church sometimes and in some things differing and hoatly dissenting in opinion Doe we not read Mat. 16. that one thing seemed good to Peter and the contrary seemed and was indeed good in Christs iudgement Did not Peter take one course and Paul another at Antioch Galat. 2. insomuch that Paul there rebuked Peter openly and sharpely And finde we not Act. 15. Paul and Barnabas growen to that heat of contention about the receiuing againe or refusing of Iohn Marke that they parted companies And if we leaue the Scriptures and go downe to later times and view the state of the Church euen in the purest times thereof we shall finde it no strange thing to see diuersities of opinions and therefore also hoat contentions betwixt those whom yet we will and must account the true members of the Church Betwixt Polycrates Victor the East and West Churches Irenaeus and certaine other Bishops of France and some Popes the contention about the obseruation of Easter was such Euse 5.21.22.23.24 that one side excommunicated another that diuers Synods were held to appease it and yet it cōtinued 300 yeares more And who knoweth not that there was contention betwixt Cypriā other Bishops of Africke Cornelius Stephanus Bishops of Rome for that they euē thē at Rome encroched too much as the other thought to intermeddle within the iurisdictiōs of the Bishops of Africke in receiuing condēned excōmunicated fugitiues that ran to Rome frō thence Neither was the controuersie small betwixt them about the rebaptizing of those that had beene before onely baptized by heretiques For proofe of both which points I refer you to the third and fourth Epistles of Cyprians first booke of Epistles and to the first Epistle of his second booke and to the third and fourth Chapters of Eusebius seuēth booke Basil also and the Church of Caesarea as it is well knowen were at hoat contention about Ecclesiasticall songes and ceremonies Theophilus of Alexandria and Chrysostome of Constantinople had betweene them a violent and troublesome contention and great part taking there was of both sides and that along time Cyrillus of Alexandria wrote against Theodoret in a controuersie of Catholicke religion Betwixt Miletius a Bishop of Aegypt and one Peter of Alexandria and their followers of both sides there arose and continued a long whyle to the great trouble of the Church a lamentable contention All Ecclesiasticall stories for the most part haue with griefe made report of these yea downe from Christ to the age wherein euery one of them wrote it too plainly appeares in them that there was neuer yet any one century of yeares but it hath had new contentions and those many not onely betwixt heretiques and catholickes but also euen amongst those that otherwise of both sides were to bee reputed sounde Christians Hierom and Augustine as all men will confesse were in their times worthy so to be accounted and yet it appeareth in their works that there was great diuersity of opinions and that in many things of great moment betwixt them Epiphanius Bishop of Cyprus and Chrysostome of whom I spake before were both famous Christians and yet the stories of their tymes shew that they were bitter enemies It is notoriously knowen that amongst the Bishops assembled against the Arrians at the councell of Nice Constantine by the bookes offered vnto him one against an other found that they then had amongst themselues many contentions and varieties of opinions and infinite it were to reckon vp all the examples that might easily be found to this end Indeede I reade for these and such like differences the Iewes and Heathen people mocked at the Christians and hereby sought mightily to deface them and their religion seuenth Stromat Clement Alexandrini But I neuer read that either then or since euer any sounde Christian though for this cause they tooke occasion to mourne yet that they or any of them tooke occasion to condemne either the one side or the other or both as not to be therefore at all of the Church of Christ For notwithstanding these differences they saw that they ioyned togither otherwise as brethren in holding togither the fundamentall pointes And that they whom you call Lutherans Zuinglians doe so the booke of late set forth of the Harmony of the confessions of all the Churches that hereabouts professe the Gospell doeth make it most manifest and euident And therfore for any force that this reason carieth with it this their differēce which is in effect only about the maner of the presēce of Christ in the Sacramēt they both may be mēbers of the true anciēt Catholick Church as wel as these other whō I haue named Another wronge that herein they offer vs is this that beeing themselues at variance amongst themselues and hauing had many and great contentions and yet hauing still some about as great a matter of religion as this that yet forgetting the beame in their owne eies like hypocrites they are so busie with the moate in ours For who so readeth the histories of their Popes writen by their owne frendes besides a number of hoat and contentious schismes troubling all Christendome for many yeares togither yea sometimes fourty years continuing betwixt their Popes Antipopes he shall finde it so common a thing for the succeeding Pope to contrary the proceedings of his predecessour as though the chiefe glorie of their papacy lay in that and therefore poore Gratian tooke a combersome worke in hand to make a concorde of such discording Canons Their religion considered it is one of the greatest controuersies that can be whither the pope or a generall councell haue the superiour authority and so must be the carier of the Churches tongue to decide and determine controuersies and yet euen in this controuersie they are so at concorde that the councell of Constance and Basil determined one way and the councels of Florence and Ferraria the other way and yet both sides hath his stout champions The Scotistes and Thomistes many an
that by the Apostolique tradition he vnderstandeth this same doctrin of God the father which before they wrote the Apostles deliuered vnto the church by liuely voice afterward as it appeareth they set down in writing Is this thē honest dealing in you to make your Reader beleeue that he meant of vnwriten doctrine such as the is for which you we striue seeing he telleth you himselfe that by the Apostolique tradition of the church you are to vnderstād this doctrine of God the father most plainely plentifully writen and set downe in the scriptures You might haue learned of S. Paul 2. Thes 2.15 that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tradition may as wel be referred to expresse doctrine in scripture as that which is deliuered by word of mouth where the Apostle as then very litle of the new testamēt being writen and as then therefore the whole Apostolicke doctrine therein not being expressed saith Hold fast brethrē the documēts deliuered you whither by word or by our Epistle But you are the lesse to be blamed the more to be borne withall for this your wilful thus abusing your reader because the making or marring of your church and Religion stādeth vpon vnwriten verities or rather forgeries which you call the Apostolicke or the holy churches traditions For there are few or none of those points of Religiō wherein we differ from you and striue with you about but your owne great champions haue confessed haue their ground from hence and not from the scriptures As any man that will take the paines to reade them may see in Peter Soto against Brentius in the 5. cap. of Canisius catechisme in the 5. booke 100. c. of Lindans panoply where they reckon vp almost all the points in controuersie betwixt them vs in Religion and when they haue done plainely cōfesse the ground thereof to be but tradition And therefore to countenance this onely bulwarke of your church Religion at least with those that either for lacke of leasure or learning cānot examine your quotations it is not your fault here alone but the cōmon fault of you all where you finde any mention in fathers of tradition though it be neuer so euident that thereby they meane nothing beside that which also hath warrant from the word writen to alleadge that place streight to countenance your vnwritē traditiōs To preuēt you therfore hereafter of thus abusing the simple I would wish thē all others to mark how flatly against your vnwritē vnwarāted traditiōs by the writē word the fathers with one consent haue writē for the absolute sufficiēcy of the scriptures Besides that which you heard out of Irenaeus Tertulliā to this purpose Irenaeus saieth further in his fifth book we must run to the Church be brought vp in her bosō nourished with the scriptures of god And Tert against Hermog writeth Let Hermogenes shew that it is writen if it be not writē let him fear that wo that is threatned or appointed to the adders or takers awaie As for Origen we haue heard him tel vs before that our senses and declarations without the witnesse of the scriptures haue no credit in his 1. Hom. vpon Ierem. And great and worthy Athanasius saieth The holy scriptures giuen by diuine inspiration are sufficient to shew the trueth against Idol Hillarie saieth it is wel that we are content with those things that are writen in his third booke of the Trinity Cyrill vpon Iohn in his 12. booke and 68. cap. graunteth indeede that all things that Christ did are not writen but hee saieth those things are writen which the writers thought sufficient both for maners and doctrine Chrysostome writing vpon the 2. to Timothie Homil. 9. saieth If there be anie thing needefull either to learne or to bee ignorant of we shall learne it in the Scriptures and in the commentary vpon Matth. commonly also fathered vpon Chrysostome wee read these golden words They that be in Christianity let them flee to the Scriptures because they can haue no other proofe of Christianity but by the Scriptures To this end read also Chrysostome vpon the 2 to the Thes Hom. 3. Basil also very sharpely writeth that it is a most euident argument of infidelity and a most certaine signe of pride if any man either doe reiect any thing of that which is writen or bring any thing not writen seeing the Lord saieth My sheepe heare my voice and they follow not the voice of a strāger in his treatise of true and godly faith Where also he noteth that Paul Galat. 3. by an example taken from men most vehemently forbiddeth that any thing be put out of the scriptures of God or which God forbid saith he be added thereunto And therefore he in Moral Reg. 26. saieth further Whatsoeuer we say or doe it must be confirmed by the testimony of the Scriptures Where likewise in his 80 rule he gathereth that seeing faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God without doubt whatsoeuer is without the holy scripture seeing it is not of faith must needes be sinne and therefore he addeth in that rule let vs stand to the arbitriment of the scriptures and with whom doctrine is founde consonant thereunto let the sentence of all trueth bee adiudged of their sides Hierome vpon Agge cap. 1. saieth those thinges which of their owne heades they deuise as though they came by Apostolique tradition without the authority and testimonie of the holy Scripture the sword of God striketh who also vpon Math. cap. 23. saieth that which hath not authority frō the scriptures as easily is despised as approued And contra Heluidium he saieth we beleeue it because we reade it and we beleeue it not because we reade it not August against Cresconins the Grammarian in his 2. booke writeth That there is an Ecclesiasticall canon ordained whereunto belong the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles by which bookes we iudge of all other writings both of the faithfull and of the Infidels out of whom already wee haue heard diuerse plaine testimonies to this purpose especially that against Petilian in his 3. booke and 6. cap. set downe in the ende of the confutation of the 3. chap Damascen is as plaine as any of these in his 1 booke of right faith cap. 1. Cuncta quae tradit a sunt c. All thinges saieth hee which are deliuered vs by the Prophets Apostles and Euangelists we embrace wee acknowledge reuerence beyond those seeking no further For all things concerning faith and maners he confesseth are plainelie conteined in the scriptures de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Infinite such places might be cited out of the ancient fathers for they are full of them whereby it sufficiently appeareth that this was the vniforme and generall iudgement and opinion of them of the sufficiency of the scriptures If therefore in deede and trueth you made any reckoning of their generall consēt as often times you will
and not to perfect it is to leaue the Church without a perfect touchstone to trie all doctrines by and argueth that it was either because hee could not or would not perfect it whereof the one robbeth him of his almighty power and infinite knowledge the other of the perfection of loue and faithfulnesse towards the churchâ— therefore most certainely in the writen worde there is left a full and perfect direction for the Church and consequently those vnwriten traditions that some striue for are superfluous Thus you haue your answere to this Chapter The VI. Chapter SAint Augustine in his Epistle a You should say 165. f r there are but 204. epistles in all 365. about the like matter doth set forth all the Popes by order which haue beene from S. Peters time vntill Anastasius which was Pope in his time and by his continuall succession he doeth proue b By the same argument we disproue popery because none of them that hee reckoÌ„s vp there was of the Romish religion that now is that the doctrine of the Donatists is heretical because that none of those Popes which hee did recite nor no part of the Church did receiue it I praie you may not wee saie the like by the c No not by theÌ„ truely whom you call Caluinistes Caluinists and other heretiques The saied S. Augustine in the Epistle that d It seemes you are a learned maÌ„ For Augustine wrote against an epistle so called he calleth not his so The Epithet RomaÌ„ you adde the words al and continual for he speaketh but of succession to his time and yet there he saieth that oâ—â—â—e trueth is to be preferred before all these he doeth call Epistola fundamenti cap. 4. doeth write the reasons that did keepe him vnder the obedience of the Catholicke Roman Church And among other he doeth alleadge the common consent of all nations the continuall succession of Bishops e This sheweth your great ignorance or negligence for of thâ—â— argument Augustine wrote two bookes and in euery booke many chapters there be but this is common with you the more to trouble your reader to send him to whole bookes and beside sometimes to set downe your quotations as though the authour had wrote but one when he wrote mo of that argumeÌ„t or as though he had wrote moe when he had writen but one And in his booke which he made against the aduersarie of the olde and newe lawe he doeth name the succession of the Bishops as most certaine to answere to that that wee saied before of S. * Ephes 1. Paul f You write Ephes 1. for Ephes 4. I mean that he would not haue vs to be wauering and doubtfull in our doctrine but that we should be firme and stable the which stablenesse is obtained by the knowledge and intelligence of the Scriptures according to the traditions of the Church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops f It continued so to Augustines time that is three or foure hundreth yeares so ergo so a thousand fiue hundreth yeares and more it should so continue the argumeÌ„t followeth not The Church saieth S. Augustine from the Apostles time hath continued through the certaine succession of the Bishops vntill our daies The VI. Chapter IN this 6. Chapter you cite three places though some of them wroÌ„g quoted out of Augustine whereby indeed it appeareth that as Irenaeus did obiect succession euen so did he to confute the heretiques of his time that taught things contrary to the scriptures but as I haue saied vnto you concerning Irenaeus so doe I concerning him You must remeÌ„ber that Augustine liued wrote within 400. yeares after Christ vnto whose time the Bishops pastours whose succession he produceth had continued at least sound in the fundamentall pointes of Christian Religion from which you your predecessours fell away long ago therefore that which he might herein safely and to good purpose doe you cannot doe without perill to an ill ende Againe you must be told that as Irenaeus was not so neither was he in thus doing a Prophet to shew that to the worldes ende it would be safe thus to doe And lastly I would haue both you and your reader to remember that it is not bare personal succession that Augustine here maketh such reckoning of but that wheÌ„ it was ioyned also with succession of trueth of doctrine as it was in his time with them of whose successioÌ„ he speaketh and is not now with you and them of whose succession you brag so much Which three things considered whatsoeuer things further by you or any of your fellowes are alleadged to this purpose out of TertulliaÌ„ Cyprian or Epiphanius which you might haue as well alleadged as Irenaeus or Augustine be answered For they all of them liued within 500. yeares after Christ when as yet the state of the church stood in good tearmes in comparison that yours doeth and they all spoke of succession of persons succeeding also one another in the Apostolicke trueth and they spake but for their owne times they prophecied not that so it would be alwaies And yet thus it is your fashioÌ„ to beguile the simple that whatsoeuer you reade 1000. yeares ago spoken in commendation of the Church of Rome that then was the Catholicke church or Catholicke faith that you would beare them in hand is spoken of your Romish church and Religion now when as yours compared with those times hath no similitude with the Church of Christ then in a great number of weighty points But for the better satisfying of the reader indeede S. August what account soeuer either in these places here recited by you or else where hee seemeth to make of personall succession or of any such outward thing in the church made more account of sole trueth taught only by the canonical Scriptures then of all other things besides For euen in in his 165. epistle which is the epistle as it should seeme which you meant though you quote the 365. which is more by an hundred one then there are in all after he saieth we presume not so much of these as of the scriptures And in the second place by you here cited out of him which ignoraÌ„tly you say he calleth Epistola fundameÌ„ti wheras he calleth none of his epistles so but writes against an epistle of the Manichees which they so called one book in the later ende of the fourth Chapter whereof after hee had reckoned vp the thinges which did hold him in the bosome of the Catholicke church and might likewise hold any beleeuer therein though trueth as yet did not most manifestly shew her selfe he addeth by by but with you speaking to the Manichees sola personat veritatis pollicitatio c. onely promise of trueth rings which truely if it bee shewed to bee on your side so manifest that it cannot be called into doubt praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in
Catholicâ teneor that is is to bee preferred before all those thinges whereby otherwise I am held in the Catholicke Church The third place likewise which you alleadge here out of Augustine as you haue quoted it serueth onely to bewray either your grosse ignorance or negligence For I finde he wrote 2. bookes against the aduersarie of the lawe and the Prophets but none in all his tomes can I finde fathered vpon him writen as you say against the aduersarie of the olde and new lawe and if you meant the former there being two bookes of that title and euery one consisting of many Chapters why speake you thereof as though he had writen but one and name not the Chapter when you tell vs where to finde the place you shall be more particulerly answered thereunto In the meane time you see in Augustines iudgement in the two other places that the trueth taught in the canonical scriptures is to be preferred before all other motiues to keepe a man in the true Catholique Church contrarie whereunto I am sure hee neither teacheth where you meane nor any where else You should therefore in his opinion farre better bestowe your time then you doe if you would bestow it in prouing by the scriptures that you your Church were stable in this trueth especially seeing trueth it selfe euen here hath enforced you to confesse that that stablenes is atteined vnto by the knowledge and intelligence of the scriptures But you adde that these scriptures theÌ„ must be vnderstoode according to the traditions of the church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops If by the church you did vnderstande as you should the true and pure church of Christ and by her traditions and Bishops such as were sound that is such as are truely iustifiable by the canonicall scriptures as the ancient fathers Irenaeus Tertullian Augustine with others of those and former times were woont to vnderstaÌ„d them as I haue shewed before when to stop the mouthes of heretiques they did appeale to theÌ„ then wee would most willingly ioyne with you that issue by the scriptures so vnderstoode to trie whether you or we haue attained to the stablenes of trueth But vnderstaÌ„ding therby as you doe your Romish church for these last 500. or 600. yeares her traditions Bishops we say and sure we are we are able to proue it that so far of is it that the scriptures are to be vnderstoode according to theÌ„ that there is no readier way to misunderstand them and to make them to haue a mutable and flexible sence now one way now another then to make them they being so contrary as they be to the ancient sound traditions of Christs church which alwaies were consonant if not the very same to that is taught in the word writen the Bishops you meane being likewise so different from them that were in the primatiue church and ofteÌ„ also so varying amoÌ„gst themselues as they are in the interpreting of them to be the rules of right vnderstanding of theÌ„ Finally if you had any forhead or conscience you would be ashamed so to abuse your poore simple reader as you do in going about to make him beleeue that because Augustine could or did say that the church had continued in it froÌ„ the Apostles times through the succession of Bishops to his that therefore hee saied it had so to ours there being aboue 1000. yeares difference The VII Chapter YOV doe studie as much as you can to reiecte our succession and not without cause a Succession of persons without succession also in trueth neuer was esteemed knowing that this onelie doeth suffice to ouerthrowe all the heresies of those new reformed Gospellers Caluin as the most appareÌ„t doeth seeke to proue that our reason is of no force because that the Greekes haue had euer succession of pastours and yet wee doe not holde them as Catholickes But if the Reader doe well note that that wee haue alreadie saied hee shall finde the answere vnto this obiection I meane because that the Greekes haue not had succession a Holde you to this you may giue ouer your brags of succession for shame and continuance of doctrine called vnitie of faith by the Apostles the which ought euer to bee ioyned to the continuance of the Pastours to shew the true recognisaunce of the Catholicke Religion There is none that doe studie and reade of those matters but that doe knowe the vnconstant faith of the Greekes as touching the proceeding of the holie Ghost the which errour they had abiured at the last councell of Florence and yet notwithstanding they did turne to it againe besides diuerse other light things to speake moderately b You haue as many thinges of importance and more too gainesaiâ—d by your forefathers which are not approued by their ancieâ—t fathers S. Iohn Chrysostome S. Ciril S Basil Athanatius nor yet by our aduersaries at this preseÌ„t time The which errours I haue no neede to set forth in this booke for my intent is but to speake of that that pricks vs at hand because of ill neighbourhood Some doe alleadge vnto vs the c We neuer alleage this alone but together with the false doctrine and vnlawfull vocation of your Bishops and Pastours negligence of our pastours and their ill liues for the which cause they saie that the mentioned succession cannot take place But this argument is of no force For although that the carelesse liues of some Bishops and ecclesiasticall persons haue beene so great so hurtfull vnto the bloud of our sauiour Christ I meane to the soules bought with it yet notwithstanding that d Yet thus for the principall point you are glad to fly from your great prelats to your poore priests the church hath not lost the succession continuance of one doctrine as touching the administration of the sacramentes by those that were deputed by the Bishops e Indeede this kind of diuision is altogether practised in your Romish Church by your Cardinals and great prelats If one should see a Prelate doing nothing and his lieutenant doing all which of those two would you take to bee Bishop they haue both deuided their charges the one receiueth the profit the other taketh all the paine If they be both content what losse do you feele he that hath anie interest let him valewe the damadge And although that the negligence of the Bishop bee not excusable f And yet nothing more coÌ„mon wi h you then wilful continuance yea by your Popes good leaue in this sin before God with the diligence of the deputie nor his conscience cleare yet this ought to suffice that though his faults be through negligence or through euill liuing g True but such doctrine you shal neuer proue yours yet that ought not to perturbe the assurance of our doctrine the which we haue taught vs by the word of God interpreted by the true doctours that haue beene
before vs agreeing in vnitie of faith as I haue already said For neither the naughtines of h There is no such there mentioned this is your common hap in your quotations It seemes you would haue said 2. Kings 16. Achas Num. 1. nor of Ioram nor of diuerse other great sinners which are inrolled in the booke of the generation of Iesus Christ were not able to withstand the fulfilling of the promise of God made to Abraham that is to saie that he would be borne of this line Euen so the ill liues and conuersation of diuerse wicked Popes that haue followed after Saint Peter haue neuer beene a This is true and yet you neuer the nearer For though al Papists faile in faith yet his church neuer faileth able to moue Christ to breake his promise that is to saie that the faith of his Church should neuer faile Math. 16. and that the gates of hell that is to saie of infidelity which are the portes of damnation should neuer preuaile against it b I see not how that chapter or any thing therein serueth to this purpose any whit at all Esay 58. Our aduersaries therefore that take such great paines to set forth in golden legends the liues of the wicked Popes that haue beene since Saint Peters time thinking thereby to ouerthrowe the succession of the Catholicke ecclesiasticall faith c Your comparison is odiou◠neither doe wee lay open their wicked liues to that ende you speake of but to shew that your glory is your shame doe no lesse offend God then if they should go about to proue the promise of God made to the Patriarches to bee vaine because of the evill liues of their successours Therefore those that doe reproche vnto vs now that the Popes of our daies are not altogither so holie as S. Peter wee doe confesse it But they cannot deny or they will confesse vnto vs that the aboue named euil Kings Achaz Ioram Manasses Amon Iechonias and others did leade no such holy liues as Abraham Isaac Iacob or Dauid yet notwithstanding those euil Kings haue beene set forth in the generation of our Sauiour as the fathers of the iust Iesus Christ Let them iudge then that haue any witte whether this bee a great folly or no to see how these crafty coggers of the scriptures should make many simple persons refuse to be the Popes spirituall children because they were sinners seeking thereby to ouerthrow all the ancient customes of the Church The VII Chapter WHither onely your succession doeth suffice to ouerthrow all our Religion or any part of it though you here confidently say it is and suppose that to be the cause why we reiect it I refer to the iudgement of the reader by that which hitherto hath beene saied by you and confuted by me concerning the same Whereby also I doubt not but euery indifferent reader may perceiue that we haue and doe still yeelde other causes of our reiection of it and not this at all Whereas you call our Religion here heresie that you haue learned of the corrupt Orator Tertullus Act. 24. But as he tearmeth poore Paul there a captaine of the Sect or heresie of the Nazarites and the high Priest and elders saied it was euen so yet hee was not ashamed of the Gospell of Christ which they so tearmed but stoutly saied before Felix to their faces that according to that way which they counted heresie he worshipped the God of his fathers beleeuing all that was writē in the law the Prophets so though you giue vs neuer so many nicknames and tearme our Religion neuer so oft new and an heresie and haue your high Priest of Rome and your elders to bear you out in so doing we neuer a whit the more mislike of our Religion as long as wee are able in trueth to say with Saint Paul which our consciences witnesse comfortably we may that therein we doe but beleeue that which is taught vs in the canonicall Scriptures Indeede not Caluin only but euery one of vs when we haue to doe with you in this question of your succession we tell you your reason drawen frō your succession is of no force seeing the Greekes whom you account heretiques may vse that argument as well as you But to preuent this our obiection against your argument of succession you say They haue not succession and continuance of doctrine the which ought euer to be ioyned to the continuāce of pastors to shew the true recognisance of the Catholique Religion We are glad to see heare that euidence force of trueth hath wrong frō you this kinde of honest true replie to our obiection yet we thanke you not for it at all For ful gladly if our obiections had not driuen you to it perforce would you haue run on which bare succession of Bishops pastours without any mention of this Well howsoeuer you haue beene drawen to confesse thus much thereupon it doeth most euidently followe that if there be as little continuance lesse too in the Apostolicke faith and doctrine in your succession as there is amongst the Greekes then by your owne confession your succession is as weake a recognisance of the Catholique Religion as theirs And therefore the case thus standing you had neede to haue bestowed lesse paines to proue your personall succession and more to haue proued this succession and continuance of the true Catholicke doctrine for the other wtout this you see is nothing What a preposterous course is this then that you haue takē to take such leasure to bestow pains on that which when you haue gotten is nothing to find no leasure to bestow any paines on this which if you could haue proued your aduersaries would haue stoode with you no longer Enter yet into this controuersie when you will I dare vndertake if you will be tried in this case by the canonicall scriptures which as I haue shewed you must of necessity it shall easily be proued that notwithstanding all you can say against the Greekes your popish Religion consisteth of more heresies and is a greater Apostasie from the ancient Catholique Apostolique faith then theirs The greatest thing you charge thē withall is their denying of the proceeding of the holy ghost from the Father the Sonne which indeede if they denied in that sence that is obiected against them by you doubtles therin they were heretiques But it should seeme that they refuse only that word as not vnderstood of thē added as they say without the consent of the whole church to the creede of feare onely least by admitting the word they should thereby be enforced to cōfesse that he came not of one beginning but of two beginnings in the meane time vsing other words expressing in effect the same thing And if it be thus as in the last session of the Florētine councell it should seeme to be els where thē in that respect their cause is not so ill as
by BertraÌ„ and others before named and their followers as we haue made it most euident in many bookes writeÌ„ to that purpose namely of late in a great booke called Orthodoxus coÌ„seÌ„sus the true catholick coÌ„sent of the holy Scriptures ancient Church of the trueth of the words of the Lords supper and of al the coÌ„trouersie thereabout printed at Tygure 1578 which booke al the swarme of you wil neuer be souÌ„dly able to answere coÌ„fute as long as you liue And therfore al the rest of this Chapter is needles wherein you suppose that betwixt Christ and his Apostles and vs there is none that we caÌ„ produce of our iudgemeÌ„t or otherwise against you But you take vpoÌ„ you to proue that we cut of theÌ„ al that haue bene betweene theÌ„ vs because Caluin hath writeÌ„ haÌ„dling this matter of the sacrament that he did find that they of old time had chaÌ„ged the fashioÌ„ of the administratioÌ„ therof otherwise theÌ„ Christs institutioÌ„ would beare c. wheruâ—oÌ„ your coÌ„clusion followeth not for diuers causes For an argumeÌ„t froÌ„ one to al holdeth not as Caluin hath done so ergo it is all out opion we al do so For though we accouÌ„t of him as of a rare singuler minister of the Lord yet wee doe not binde our selues to doe and say whatsoeuer he did and saied For we know him to haue beene a man subiect to error and infirmity for al his gifts neither wil you be coÌ„tented that such an argument should hold alwaies drawn froÌ„ any one of your greatest most famous learned writers to presse al the rest And a second reason of the weaknes of your argumeÌ„t is that there is more in your coÌ„clusion then is in the antecedent giuen you by him For you would conclude for those are your words to the proofe whereof you cite Caluin that we condeÌ„ne cut of al the ChristiaÌ„s that haue bene are betwixt Christ his Apostles and vs wheras Caluin speaketh not of al but of some of olde time The 3 reason Caluin himselfe giueth you in the eueÌ„ in the words set downe by you he sheweth plainly that though in theÌ„ that he spake of he noted some aberration froÌ„ the simplicity of Christs institution yet he did not therfore cut theÌ„ of froÌ„ the Church nor coÌ„deÌ„ne theÌ„ What are you such a cutter that you straight cut of al those froÌ„ coÌ„munioÌ„ with you in whoÌ„ you caÌ„ iustly finde any fault or errour in opinion or practise of life Surely then you must cut of most of your best frends That which we can foundly proue to be a fault in brethren either ancient or of later time we may safely note tel them of and labour to reforme yet as long as they ioine togither with vs in one God faith and Baptisme otherwise we can and ought to holde peace Christian communion with them or els where caÌ„ there at any time be any true concord or peace kept in the church For some differences of opinions vsages there haue alwaies yet beene and wil be betwixt one particuler Church and another and betwixt some members of the true church or other You needed not therfore I warrant you one whit haue beene afraide that Caluin his fellowes were so scrupulous that they would not ioine in fellow ship with some such as he speaketh of there and yet the letteth not but that he should couÌ„sel his readers to prefer Christs own simple institution before the vsage of them or any other differing from it The XI Chapter YOu doâ— verie wel that S. Paul doth coÌ„pare many times the mistical body of the church vnto a natural body seing that Iesus Christ is the head vnto whoÌ„ the body is ioined by ioints bones sinews If one should then demande of you how the feete are ioined to the head you will answere me by the legs which are next vnto the feete And if I aske you how the legs are ioyned to the head you will answer by the ioints and by the 〈◊〉 of the backe and so consequently from member to member I doe beleeue that we are all of one accord * 1 Cor. 10. that the ende of the world is at hand and so consequently that we are the lower most part of the body so that 〈◊〉 the feete or the legs Then my masters you that haue made so fâ—ne aâ— Anotomie of the Masse at my request make another of the ministrie of your congregation a You were a very pleasant man be like that could thus play your selfe a fit of mirth and when you had done daunce after your owne pipe it seemes you thought that the sport then would be so pleasant that no beholder could forbare laughter If you should see such another as Apelles that would paint a man and that he had drawen his head and without painting the rest of his bodie he had set his feete vnder his eares what would you saâ—â— to such a Table Spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici Would you not thinke that he was a simple painter or else a great Iester Euen so doe you deserue that one should laugh at your ministerie b This is vntrue and a grosse slaÌ„der for we hold and teach that euer since Christ to our daies there haue bene both shepheards and sheepe ioyning with vs in the vnity of faith therfore you laugh at your owne shadow and vaine fansie For you will ioine your Church if it may bee so called vnto the church of the Apostles without setting forth anie members betweene them You take but scant measure when you will cut of all the Bishops Pastours and doctours that haue beene from the Apostles time till our daies they being the members that followe the head of the church This maie well be called a new Religion or to saie the truth it is a meere presumption to flie without winges or to climbe without a ladder And I saie to you againe that this is not the waie to followe the counsell of the great Sheepheard that I mentioned before who doeth saie vnto vs that if we will not misse the waie of the Catholicks we ought to follow the flocke of those sheepe that haue gone before vs that is to saie that we should reckon c But thâ—s in truth yours caÌ„not do therefore yours is not the Catholicke Church by your owne reason by succession the Pastours that haue succeeded in continuance of one kinde of doctrine the which as we haue shewed the Catholicke church doeth and hath euer done The XI Chapter As though you had most substaÌ„tially proued by Caluins words that we cut of all Christians betwixt the Apostles and vs in this Chapter you vrge the metaphor of a body whereunto vsually the church of Christ is compared whereupon you gather that as there is an orderly connexion and situation of members in a body so there must be in the church and that therefore our church must
needes be a monstrous mishapen thing in ioyning the Christians of these later daies with the Apostles without any betwixt and fosâ—â—ating as it were the feete of the body hard to the eares without any other members betwixt the one and the other And thus hauing framed this mery conceit in your owne heade you call vpon your frendes to laugh at it with you and so you proceede in telling vs that whiles we take this course we fly without wings and climbe without a ladder and despise the counsell of Salomon which after your maner you interpret that we should reckon by succession the pastours that haue succeeded in continuance of one kinde of doctrine the which you say you haue shewed you haue done To what purpose now is all this seeing in trueth neither we doe thus cut of all Christians betwixt them and vs neither haue you shewed any such succession of pastours downe from them to you continuing in your doctrine Truely to no other purpose can they serue but to expresse your owne ridiculous vanity Howbeit because you called in the former Chapter for the names of those that haue caught vs to deny your real presence in the sacrament and vpon a conceit in your owne fansie that you haue posed vs you haue growen to bee thus full of these swelling wordes of vanity and because I feare neither you nor many of your disciples will vouchsafe to peruse those books that I sent you vnto for answere in that point yet haue hope that for your sake some of you may chauÌ„ce vouchsafe to reade this I will not sticke with you particulerly to satisfie your request a little further First therefore vnderstand that we haue learned to deny your kinde of reall presence of Christ himselfe the institutour of this Sacrament because he hath flatly and vehemently affirmed without exception Iohn 6.54 that whosoeuer eateth his flesh drinketh his bloud hath eternall life Whereas by the meanes of your doctrine it followeth because all that receiue this sacrament haue not faith but manie lacke it that it shall bee eaten of manie that shal be neuer the better by it but the worse We haue also further learned it of him in that in the same Chapter speaking of the eating of his body drinking of his bloud he drew his hearers from a grosse conceit of eating drinking him by their bodily mouthes by vsing of the word beleeueth in stead of eateth and drinketh ver 40.47 and cap. 7.38 by mentioning vnto them his ascention Iohn 6.62 lattly by saying vnto theÌ„ It is the Spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing the words that I speake vnto you are spirit life ver 63. This finally we haue learned of him saying If any shall say vnto you Lo here is Christ there is Christ beleeue it not Math. 24.23 by his continuing at the table when he first instituted and ministred it vnto his Apostles without alteration either of his place or forme Mat. 26. Mar. 12. Luke 22.1 Cor. 11. The Apostles euaÌ„gelists haue also taught vs to deny it in that they teach vs that he visibly asceÌ„ded into heauen that he shall so also come againe wheÌ„ he coÌ„meth froÌ„ thence c. Act. 1.11 especially seeing his comming to iudgement is called his secoÌ„d comming Heb 9.28 and vntil the restitutioÌ„ of all things it is saied by Peter the heaueÌ„s must coÌ„taine him Act. 3.21 The EuaÌ„gelists in laying downe vnto vs the story of his natiuity life death so prouing vnto vs that he was is a true and perfect maÌ„ encourage vs also least we should with the Marcionites other heretiques denie the trueth of his maÌ„hood coÌ„tantly to â—â—â—y your reall preseÌ„ce for the maintenance whereof you are driueÌ„ to fansy a nuÌ„ber of things quite contrary to the nature trueth of his maÌ„hood And lastly in that reciting the words of the institution they tel vs that Christ commanded that to be done in remeÌ„brance of him Luke 22.19 1. Cor. 11.24 there Paul saith v. 26. As often as ye shall eate this bread drink this cup ye shew the lords death till he coÌ„e which words plainly argu that though the sacrameÌ„t be both rightly ministresâ— receiued yet it inferreth not any such real preseÌ„ce as you ther imagâ—â— Now betwixt them vs we finde infinite places in writers of all ages that teach vs still to denie your reall presence but amongst many marke these for example TertulliaÌ„ in his 4. booke against MarcioÌ„ interpreteth these words Hoc est corpus meum thus that is to say This is a figure of my body Augustine against AdamaÌ„tus the Manichee c. 12. writeth that christ doubted not to say This is my body wheÌ„ he gaue a signe of his body vpoÌ„ the 3. Ps he saieth that Christ admitted Iudas to a baÌ„quet where he coÌ„meÌ„ded a figure of his body to his disciples vpoÌ„ the 98. Ps he saith yee shal not eat this body that yee see neither shall yee drinke that bloud which they shall shed that crucify me I haue coÌ„mended vnto you a certaine sacrament it being spiritually vnderstoode will giue you life In his 3. booke therfore of Christian doctrine he writeth thus This saying of Christ Except yee eate the flesh of the son of maÌ„ c. seemeth to coÌ„mand an heinous thing a wicked therefore it is a figure coÌ„maÌ„ding vs to be partakers of Christs passioÌ„ keeping in our minds to our great profit coÌ„fort that his flesh was crucified wouÌ„ded for vs. c. 16. he saith It is a miserable slauery of the soule to take the signes for the things signified in the same booke c. 5. And therefore in his 23. epistle he telleth vs that the similitude betwixt the signe the thing signified is the cause why the one beareth the name of the other in sacrameÌ„ts in his 57. questioÌ„ vpoÌ„ Leuitic he giueth vs this rule The thing that signifieth is woÌ„t to bear the name of the thing which it signifieth as Paul said The rock was Christ not it signified Christ but eueÌ„ as it had bene indeed which neuertheles was not Christ by substaÌ„ce but by signification So that his vsual doctrine is to teach vs in this sacrament to seeke christ in heaueÌ„ by faith thereby to make him present which otherwise is absent as you may read in his 50. tract vpon Iohn els where very often And with Augustine the rest of the fathers consent in this matter therefore nothing is more coÌ„moÌ„ with them then to call the outward part in this sacrament a signe figure similitude resemblance or representatioÌ„ as it appeareth in these places Chrysostom in his 83. Homil vpon Mat. Hierom in his 2. booke against IouiniaÌ„ Ambr. in his 4. booke of the sacraments c. 5. Basil in his lyturgy Ephr in his 4. booke against the impugners of Christs manhood by humane reason And Origen vpoÌ„ Leuit hom 7. teacheth vs that the letter
to returne to your perswasion of vs to be meeke and humble c. tell me in good earnest did Christ at any time obey any of them you speake of in any thing that was ill and was there not a necessity in regard of our redēption to suffer those things which he suffered and as he suffered them at their hands what maketh this then either to binde vs to obey the wicked vngodly proceedings of your Popes and Prelates wherein onely we refuse to listen vnto them or needelesly to suffer those thinges at your hand which lawfully we may auoide And I trust you are perswaded that Christ himselfe that willed others to learne of him to be hūble and meeke that he neuer forgat that lesson himselfe And yet if you reade Mat. 23. and Iohn the 8. you shall finde that he comprising the high Priestes themselues within the compasse of his speech aswell as other his inferiour malitious enemies calleth them hypocrits children of the Deuill c. And the Prophets though they were not to learne of you how to behaue them selues to higher powers yet they did vse often very sharpe and bitter speeches against the Princes and other rulers of their times an example whereof you haue Esay 1.10 in these wordes Heare the word of the Lord O Princes of Sodom hearken to the law of our God O people of Gomorrah But Paul you will say Act. 23. hauing called a wicked high Priest that contrary to law tyrannously had commanded him to be smitten painted wall being admonished thereof corrects himselfe remēbring that it is writē thou shalt not raile or speake ill of the Prince Ex. 22. saying I knew not that he was the high Priest Indeede one of the high Priests clawbacks who are alwaies ready to iustify their master how vniustly soeuer he deale and to controle Gods seruāts for saying neuer so litle amisse of thē though therunto they be neuer so iustly prouoked gaue him a check therefore wherevpon it seemeth that Paul vpon the reason aforesaied excused himselfe but indeede he did it in such sort as that in trueth he giue him a greater blow though somewhat more couertly then he had done before in plainly shewing that that dealing of his considered he knew him not to be the high Priest But if this notwithstanding you thinke still that Paul would not giue any harde speech to such a Prelate and iustifie it when he had done consider a little what reckoning you make of Saint Peter and then call to remembrance what is writen Gal. 2. and you shall finde it cleare that not onely he rebuked Peter openly at Antioch but that also he iustifies that his owne doing therein saying that he did so because he went not with the right foote to the Gospell And learne by these places not to be so dainty ouer your Popes and Prelates hereafter but that if they doe lewdly think it may well stand with that meekenes humility that Christ hath taught vs that they be plainly as they deserue tolde of their doings by vs. It is one thing to rafle of them that be in lawful authority and to backbite and depraue them and another thing it is by way of instruction admonitiō and reprehensiō by plaine iust and true tearms to let them see their faults so it be done in time and place conuenient in maner beseeming such an action This later might the Iewes doe to Nabuchadnezzar notwithstanding Ieremies words and the Christians vnder the heathen Emperours to them and yet both keep within duety and loialty but the former is that which is vnlawful to bee vsed against any how bad soeuer he be that is in place of lawfull magistracy or office Finally whereas you yet thinke scorne that your Pope should bee worse then Nabuchadnezzar and that therefore the Iewes might haue had far more iust exceptions against him to free them frō their obedience and submission to him then we haue to free vs from subiection to your Popes in trueth therein you are very much deceiued For first his authority as a King ouer them was a power in it selfe lawful though abused by him and yours as I haue shewed is flatly vnlawfull and the Iewes were commanded subiection vnto him and we are commanded as I haue saied Reuel 18. to forsake all communion with your Popish Antichristian kingdome Your Popes for lewdnes of life for manifold Idolatries and blasphemies in Religion and for want of right title to the dignity and office which they claime doubtlesse will thorowly match him by how much their knowledge in respect of the meanes they haue which he lackt should be more then his by so much these things in them make them more intolerable then the same could make him And therefore these thinges considered the obedience and submission which the Iews were enioyned to yeeld to Nabuchadnezzar inferreth not the like to be due to your Popes and other your Romish Prelates The XVII Chapter ANy mā may easily perceiue by this discourse that you haue no great reason in saying that that you saie and much lesse to doe that that you preach I meane to begin the reformation of the church by the waie of force the which is a thing contrarie to all lawes diuine and humane which defende * Cod. vt nemo in suâ causâ jud that a This is your dealing flat for your Pope is the party many waies most iustly charged by vs yet he wil be the supreme iudge in his owne cause one should bee Iudge in his owne cause and you will not onelie be a Iudge but a partie resembling in this him that gaue the blowe to Christ vnto whom the answere was made * b Job 15. b Wel hit again 15. for 18. If we haue done ill c This alwaies we are ready to doe proue it before the Iudge seeing that you are our accusers If you saie that God hath giuen you power to knowe to iudge and to exempt that is to saie to driue vs out of our possession and to cause the people to forsake that Religion which they haue maintained d It is a shame to repeate this bragge so often and neuer to go about in all your booke once to proue it which you know is the maine question these 1500. yeares vpwards shew vs your commission with as sure a warrant as so great a matter doeth require seeing that you saie that ye are sent extraordinarilie as Moses was to redeem the childrē of Israell out of the captiuity of Egypt that is to say according vnto your interpretatiō the children of God the true faithful out of the false Religion of the Papists of that which the Pope Antichrist worse thē Pharao is the head master Thus ye vse to expoūd moralizate the figures of the olde Testament in fauour of the Catholicke Church yet is it so that when God spake vnto you about so zealous a thing as this yee
altar and the leaues of the other scattered all ouer the church wherevpon Adrian the Pope like a profound interpreter of visions gathers that it was the Lords meaning thereby to shew that S. Ambroses Lyturgy might well be vsed vpon his owne altar at Millan but the other should be vsed generally ouer all churches and thus the credit of Saint Gregories masse was first established Howbeit before transubstantiation came in which was not as I haue sayed before the yeare 1215 it was nothing the minion that it hath beene since And yet euen then it was not growen to her highest credit for about fiue yeares after it was ere that adoration or eleuation of the host was decreed for then first Honorius the 3 enacted that and the hosts holiday commonly called Corpus Christi day was not made before Pope Vrbans tyme in the year 1260. as witnesseth Polydor in his 6 booke and 8 Chapter of the inuentours of things Whereupon it may euideÌ„tly appeare that the masse as it is now is but a very youngling and one of her father the Popes youngest daughters And as for latin seruice her coÌ„panion it was first brought into England by one Theodorus sent hither by Pope Vitellian about the yeare 657. And to proceede to other pointes of Popery as it is well knowen it is an other most principall point of your religion to attribute vnto the Pope that vniuersal supremacy ouer al bishops and ouer the whole Church of Christ that you doe for you haue made it an article vnder payne of damnation to be receiued that there is no saluation but vnder his obedience and within his communion as it is set downe by Boniface the 8 in his extrauagant de maioritate obedientiâ And yet in the 6 Canon of the Nicene councell holden about the yeare 330. as some count it appeares that then the Roman bishop had his bounds and limits prescribed him aswell as the other patriarches And the generall councell of Calcedon and the 6. generall councell held at Constantinople determined Can. 36. that the bishop of that see should haue equall priueledges with the bishop of old Rome 680 yeares after Christ And appeales to Rome were forbidden vnder paine of excommunication in the couÌ„cel of Mileuitan Cap. 22. and of Africke Cap. 92. Further yet your owne proper and late councels of Constance and Basil haue not long ago greatly curtolled the supremacy that now the Pope chalength for they haue decreed that the authority of a general councel is so farre aboue him that thereby he may be condemned and deposed And though now according to your Canon Dist 40. cap. si papa your popes wil be lawles may not by any be controled though be lead people headlong by heaps to hel as it is there set downe yet I read that in Pope Symachus tyme about the yeare 500. after Christ that many bishops did accuse him then to Theodoricus king of the Gothes because he took vpon him to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is one whose wil should be a law And in the couÌ„cel of Carthage the thâ—â— there was a decree made Cap. 26. against sundry ambitious 〈◊〉 chalenged euen then as it should seeme to be due vnto the bishopâ— of Rome as that they should not be called Prince of Priestes 〈…〉 priest but bishops of the first see And howsoeuer now Hoâ—ius Belarmine and others reckon the title of ecumenicall or vniuersall bishop amongst the due and iust titles of the Pope yet it is flatly set downe as a thing vnlawful and is forbid in the 99. distinctâ—â—◠〈◊〉 by the iudgment of Pelagius bishop of Rome in the yeare 58â—â— by Gregory the first his successor And it is wel known that Gregory very directly and often condeÌ„ned this title both in Iohn bishop of CoÌ„staÌ„tinople and in al other bishops himselfe and the bishops of the see of Rome not excepted as it is euident in his 4 book of Epistles Epi. 30 38.88 in his 9 book Ep. 45. Your set daies of fasting you learned of MoÌ„tanus your placing so necessary a point of fasting in abstineÌ„ce froÌ„ flesh of the Manichees as it appears in Aug. 74. Epist wherein you are as deepe as either they or any other heretickes euer were witnes your owne Dur. li. 6. c. de ieiuniis For he there giueth this as a reason why in fasting flesh is rather abstained from then fish because al flesh was accursed and not al fish in the daies of Noe. And compare Augustines description of the Manichees fasts with yours in his 2 book de moribus ManicheoruÌ„ Cap. 13. and you shal finde theÌ„ marueilous like Further what holines soeuer you imagin to be in your forbidding your cleargy mariage and how ancient soeuer you would perswade the simple and ignorant that that order is any man may see that reads Augustines foresaied 74 Epistle his 18 Chapter of his second booke de moribus Manicheorum as the Manichees Tatimists learned to condemne mariage as they did of the Ethnicks as Clemens Alexandrinus thinketh they did Stromat 3 so you haue learned this your kind of forbidding your cleargy as you cal them marriage of them For there it appears that they allowed it amongst their ordinary hearers forbad it onely to those that studied perfection and were the chosen ones to the ministery amongst them eueÌ„ as you do But whatsoeuer either you or they say or haue sayed to the contrary for the iustifying of this your antichristian deuise as it is most cleare to any that readeth but the old testament that mariage was as allowable to the Lords priests then and as honourable accounted both of God and good men so 〈◊〉 lesse clearly doeth it appeare in the new 1. Cor. 9. 1. Tim. 3. that the lyke opinion was retained both of the honorablenes and lawfulnesse thereof for Apostles Euangelists and al other ministers of the Lord insomuch that Paul in the first of these places howsoeuer you papists seeking to hide his playne meaning disorder his words read a woman a sister for a sister a wife sheweth not onely how the brethren of the Lord and Cephas caried their Christian wiues vp and down with theÌ„ but that also it was lawful for them so to due to take maintenance where they preached for themselues theirs that he Barnabas if they listed might lawfully euen doe so also Insomuch that S. Paul 1. Tim. 4 doeth flatly aduouch the denial or forbidding therof not only as the Manichees some other heretikes haue forbiddeÌ„ it as a filthy vnlawful estate in it selfe with yet if your own report be true was Siritius opinion dist 82 is stil Gregory Martins discou ca. 11. but euen as the wisest of you defend now the denying of it to your cleargy vnder the preteÌ„ce of more holines in abstaining ther froÌ„ for a plaine doctrine of deuils For especially he speaketh of theÌ„ there that should in the later daies doe so in
saluation Act. 4. and that none are to be called vpon in whom we beleeue not Rom. 10. you teach vs to beleeue in many thinges and persons besides the Trinity so to be apostataes from our creede forme of baptism And besides whiles you teach vs this doctrine of inuocatiō of saints and Angels cōtrary both to the beginning and ende of the Lords praier you also teach vs to pray vnto them to whō we may neither begin nor ende our praier as thereby we are taught And therefore you dealing with vs in these pointes and diuerse others being so grosse as it is and was if we had had no better warrant to receiue these partes of the Catechisme then your worde we should haue had small courage to haue receiued them as from you But Caluin Beza and other of our famous ministers in the teeth with hauing their education and maintenance at their bookes first with you comparing them in that now they set themselues against your corruptions vnto Camels with reward their masters for their good keeping with yerking and biting Whereas in trueth if you had grace to see it they could no way shew themselues more thankefull vnto you for the same then by carefull and diligent labouring your conuersion and reformation as they haue done S. Paul you know was brought vp at the feete of Gamaliel a notable Pharisee was himselfe at the first by profession a Pharisee and so had his educatiō and maintenance at the first amongst such what then will you resemble him to your yerking Camels because after when it pleased God to open his eies and to conuert him to Christ hee preached and wrote against the errours of the Pharises laboured their reformation why should you then euen for imitating of S. Paul thus vnmanerly compare these men or any other whom it shall please God to stirre vp in like maner to seeke your good Still you call our Religiō new deuises now further you adde that though it haue beene in times past yet it was buried in the very depth of hell we haue raised it vp againe giuen it new colours All this cannot make vs ashamed of the Gospell of Christ which we know to be the power of God to saluatiō to euery one that beleeueth to the Iewe first also to the Greciā Rom. 1.16 For these are but bare words how spitefull malitious soeuer and we know that when it was preached by Christ himselfe and his Apostles it had as hard sentence oft giuen of it by the superstitious and blind Scribes and Pharises and yet for all that it mightily preuailed then and so doeth and will now Yet it is well that in some sorte now you will confesse it hath beene before for very confidētly before in your 4. chapter you set downe that none of vs cā deny but the Luther 1517. began it first but as you did well in this and spoke truely so in adding that it was yet buried c. you speake not onely malitiously and blasphemously as one day though I feare to late you shall be driuē to see but also vntruely For you cannot be ignorant but as it was before Luthers time professed and taught by Petrus Valdus Iohn Wickliffe Iohn Hus so therein they had their followers in Bohemia Calabria Angronia diuers other places and that in great nūbers euen vnto Luthers time and lōg after And as for colours we vse none to countenance this trueth but the natiue naturall colours which the scriptures allow it for we thinke it most sincerely preached when it is most simply set forth onely in these colours other colours we leaue to you to decke vp the garish whore of Babylō withall At last so earnest a procter or crier are you for miracles that you are contented to ioine with vs vpon this point that though our doctrine were not new but very old yet we must ought to confirme it by miracles And this you labour to proue because the doctrine that Moses the Apostles were sent to preach was not new but old yet they were furnished with power to worke miracles to cōfirme that old ancient doctrine For Moses wrought his miracles you say especially to this ende the Gods name might be knowen ouer all the earth that is to say that men should know that he is God the Apostles as you say at their first preaching preached not Iesus Christ vnto the Gētils but that there was but one God which by a number of testimonies you labour to proue was no new doctrin to the heathen Painims but a thing which by the light of nature left in them and by the view of Gods works many of them atteined vnto all might in such sort as that they are without excuse for that they worshipped not God as God This is I confesse directly to the matter and some shew these things cary I graunt of proofe of that which you toke in hande thereby to proue But if we examine well those things and weigh the weight of this argument wee shall finde small or rather no force at all therein to proue indeede the thing intended thereby For though God saie Exod. 9. not 19. as your quotation is that for this cause hee had set Pharaoh vp to shew his power in him and to declare his name throughout the whole world as in working of all miracles at all times that is an especiall ende that the Lord hath And though that bee no newe doctrine that hee is God and but one and that both Moses and the Apostles taught this yet this proueth not but that otherwise both Moses and they had newe and strange matters giuen them in commission for confirmation and effecting whereof it was necessarie for them to worke miracles For Moses especially was called and appointed by God as it appeareth Exod. 3.4 and 5. Chapters to this ende to signifie vnto Pharaoh that it was the pleasure of God that he should dismisse his people Which because the Lord had purposed notwithstanding the harde heart of Pharaoh to bring to passe therefore Moses was by his direction to worke the miracles hee wrought So that the next ende of working of them was to confirme this his newe and strange message to Pharaoh and to cause it to take place though therein the Lord had another further ende namely thereby to get himselfe a name for euer So in like maner though the Apostles preached the God that made heauen earth to be the only true God as it appeareth they did Act. 14. 17. which was no new doctrine indeede in it selfe considered yet it appeareth in the same places that it was newe there For in the one place they worshipped Iupiter and Mercurie for Gods and in the other an vnknowen God And besides it is euident that not onely their office was extraordinarie in that immediately they had their calling frō God and their charge without limitation but also
by the Scripture ill vnderstood for * Mat. 10. 16. our Sauiour doth say that for to be his disciples we must forsake and renounce all that we haue in testimony of the which the first Christians at Ierusalem did sell all their possessions and presented the money of them to the Apostles to giue to the poore And that that is worse the Adamites did maintaine a greater errour then this and more brutish the which is that al mens wiues should be common and they did cal this the true Gospel and the pure word of God alleaging for it the first and eight of Genelis where God doeth say Increase and multiplie and replenish the earth If you doe say that this is a foolish opinion I confesse it to be so but that i This is false that Church condemneth popery for this heresie Zisca Hus and their followers coÌ„demned before you very Church which hath condemned this heresie of theirs doeth likewise condemne yours When the deuill determined to fight with Christ he thought he could no wise aide himselfe so wel as with the holy scripture perswading him that the best way for him to shew himselfe to be the sonne of God was to breake his necke casting himselfe downe from the pinnacle of the Temple And he did alleadge this text saying * Psal 90. as it is writen That the Angels of God should so preserue him that he should not hurt his foote against the stones following that Dauid saied And if I should go about to write al the places of Scripture that the heretikes haue alleaged to maintaine their horrible errours I thinke surely I might make a bigger booke then the Bible The XXIII Chapter YF a O you are your crafts master a man may see in wrong alleaging the Scriptures that the sonne doe hate the father or the father the sonne or if the wife doe hate the husband or the husband the wife they may take the word of God ill vnderstood to defend their cause for he doeth commaunde vs that we shall hate those that are nearest vnto vs as vnder the paine of not entring into Paradise if we doe contrarie But this ought to be vnderstoode that we ought not to prefer the loue of anie creature how neare soeuer they be to vs before the loue of God In like maner he that will saie that we should not eat of the bloud of those beasts that are smoothered he may soone alleadge the scripture for it which doeth saie that at the couÌ„cel that the Apostles held at HierusaleÌ„ beeing present the holie Ghost this ordinance was made as we read in the. 15. Chapter of the Actes And if that one should take in hand to bring al the places of scripture that the heretikes haue alleaged to maintaine their opinions I dare boldlie saie that he shal finde it an endlesse piece of worke For among so great a number of false Prophets there hath bene verie few or almost none but they haue sought to maintaine their opinions by Scripture drawing the places as it were by violence to a depraued and a corrupt sense beeing this the maner of interpreting of the Scriptures called at this daie the pure word of God by those that haue professed to be as long as they liue enemies to the trueth a You should haue saied in his first come 2 booke The learned and auncient Doctour Epiphanius in his first booke against heresies doeth alleage as touching this matter a verie familiar example saying that if some good Caruer had made the image of a king adorned with manie Iewels and precious stones and that another should come afterward and should take the same Iewels and precious stones and make vvith them the image of a Fox or a Dogge and that he should saie beholde here is the Image of a king would not euerie bodie laugh him to scorne and saie that he did it in mockerie or els that he were mad Yes surelie for although they bee the same Iewels and that verie stuffe wherewith was made the Image of the king yet because that this other vvorkeman hath taken them awaie and fashioned them after another sorte it ought no more to bee called the image of a king but the picture of a Fox or a Dogge Euen thus is it vvith the holie Scriptures vvhich were left vs by the Apostles and Prophetes for to paint in rich colours the Image of the great king of glorie b This is euen your owâ—e dealing with the scripture vp downe when you would confirme Popery therewith but seeing that you take those precious stones from the image of this king and doe appropriate them vnto the Image of a Foxe making them serue to cloake your heresies vvithal it ought no more to be called the worde of God nor the holie Scripture but the word of men false doctrine And therefore if you vvill haue it to beare the first name you must set it in the first estate that is to saie c This is certaine and therefore scripture trust interpret scripture and not your Romish spirit that it ought to be interpreted by him that did first indite it It is not by the will of man saieth S. Peter Epist 2. Ca. 1. That the prophecy was brought but by the inspiration of the holy Ghost that holie persons haue spoken c. I know wel that you attribute the intelligence of the scripture vnto your Sinagogue d This we doe not take vpoÌ„ vs. But how shal we beleeue that the holy Ghost doeth dwel more in you theÌ„ in al the vniuersal Church which hath continued froÌ„ the passion of Christ vntil this time I pray doe so much as answere me if you my masters be the lodging of the holie Ghost e Whither our alleaging of theÌ„ agree or not with the holie Ghost it selfe speaking in the scriptures we are contented to let alwaies the true Church of Christ iudge where did he make his residence before ye were borne I know already your answer the which is In the hearts of the faithful And where were those faithful Marie where the holy Ghost was Answer thus stil ye shal be sure that ye shal not be ouertakeÌ„ for it is as good as to play Handie dandie soye shal accomplish the olde Prouerbe the which sayeth It is as farre from Douer to Caleis as from Caleis to Douer But to the ende that all the world maie see the great hazarde of eternal damnation that those run into that are so readie to beleeue euerie bodie thinking that they are assured of their health forasmuch as those that seduce them saie behold there is the scripture it is the pure word of God the verie gospel I wil set forth some heresies that haue beene in times past condemned by the catholicke Church the which notwithstaÌ„ding haue bene a This you can neuer doe aswel yea more largelie confirmed by Scripture then you can confirme anie of yours
confute them and to confirme the trueth as it appeareth by Christes answere to Sathan Mat. 4. and by the writings of the ancient fathers against these heretiques And the hardnesse that it hath pleased God to leaue in the Scriptures is not such but as that notwithstanding the simplest may reade and trauell in the Scriptures with great profit howsoeuer it pleaseth you to insinuate in your taunting maner ca. 26. that artificers may not haue the spirit of God and bee profitable readers and vnderstanders thereof For euery one that would be blessed is to take delight in the lawe of god and to shew that his delight by meditating therein day night Psalm 1. and Christ hath commanded all his hearers indifferently to search the scriptures Iohn 5. And for all the hardnes that is in them we reade Psal 19. that the testimonie of the Lord giueth wisedome vnto the simple and his commandements giue light vnto the eies And therefore the holy ghost in Dauid speaking of the scriptures of the olde Testament which were then harder then they be now being so opened as they be now by the accesse of the new Testament saieth thus Thy word is a lanterne vnto my feete and a light to my paths Psal 119. Wherefore Peter in his 2. Epist 1. cap. calleth the writings of the Prophets a light that shineth in a darke place and therefore much more he accounted the scriptures of the new testament lightsome which it seemeth in the verie same place he had an eie vnto adding that they did well to attend to the former vntill the day dauned and the day starre arose in their harâ—â— which by meanes of the Scriptures of the newe Testament might bee though I forget not that the same Peter in the same Epist chap. 3. wrote also that amongst the things writen by Paul in his Epistles concerning the later daies there are some things hard to be vnderstoode For I remember also that yet he noteth to whom they are so saying which they that are vnlearned and vnstable peruerte as they doe the other Scriptures vnto their owne destruction for to such nothing is plaine inough to preserue or keepe them from thus doing Vpon which groundes howsoeuer you and your fellowes with such like discourses as this would discourage the simple and vnlearned from reading the scriptures Origen wisheth that al would doe as it is writen Search the Scriptures in his 2. Hom. vpon Esay And Hierom noteth vpon these wordes Colosse 3. Let the word of God dwell in you plentifully c. that euen laymen ought to haue the word of God not onely sufficiently but also abundantly dwelling in them And therefore Augustine in his 55. sermon de tempore saieth generally vnto his hearers It is not sufficient that yee heare the deuine scriptures in the Church but also in your houses either reade them your selues or els desire some other to reade them and giue you diligent eare to them And Chrysost likewise in his 9. Homil vpon the Coloss is verie earnest to perswade seculare men as you call them to get them the Bible or at the least the new Testament to be their continuall teachets and in his 3. Homil vpon Mat. he saieth plainely that this as a plague marreth or infecteth all that some thinke that the reading of the Scriptures pertaineth onely to monkes And these exhortations tooke such place in the ancient time that Hierom vpon the 133. Psalm saieth that both maried men and their wiues then had this contention and not monkes onely who could learne most Scriptures Whereof came such profit that howsoeuer your gibing spirit can not digest the like in these daies Theodoret in his 5. booke of the nature of man writeth that men in his time might commonly see that their doctrine was not only knowen of them that were doctours of the Church and masters of the people but also euen of Tailers Smithes Weauers of al artificers yea and not onely of learned women but also of labouring women as Sewsters Seruants and Handmaides yea he goeth further saying that not onely citizens vnderstoode the same but also cuntrie people and amongst them Ditchers Deluers Cowherdes and Gardiners and that in such sorte as that you should then heare them disputing of the Trinity and of the creation of all thinges And as for the obiection that you terrifie them so much withal of the hardnes therein the ancient fathers haue met with that also and would not haue them thereby in any case discouraged from following this counsell whereby they are stirred vp to heare 〈◊〉 them And therefore Origen in his 20. Homil vpon Iohn saieth It may be saied the scriptures are harde yet notwithstanding iâ— thou reade them they shall doe thee good and Hierom noâ—â—th that it is the fashion of the Scripture after harde thinges to 〈◊〉 other things that be plaine in his 19. Homil vpon Esay But Augustine belike meeting in his time with your forefathers of whom yee haue learned this obiection hath these wordes in his 5. books against Iulian yee enlarge and lay out with many wordes aâ— nothing is more vsuall with you how harde a matter the knowledge of the scripture is and meete onely for a fewe learned men and therefore in his 3. booke and 26. cap. of Christian doctrine hiâ— giueth vs this rule to expound darke places by more plaine places which saieth hee is the surest way of declaring the scriptures to expounde one scripture by another in his 2. booke and 3. chap. of the same matter he writeth that in those which are conteined euideÌ„tly in the scriptures are found al things that conteine fâ—â—th maners hope and loue But Irenaeus in his 1. booke chap. 3 â—â—â—teth simply that the scriptures are plaine And Chrysost in his first Homil vpon Math. and vpon the 2. Thess 2. writeth that the scriptures are easie to the slaue husbandman widow children and that all things be plaine and cleare therein And yet I 〈◊〉 needes adde with Epiphanius onely to the children of the holy ghost are the scriptures plaine and cleare in his 2. booke and with Solomon knowledge is easy to him that will vnderstand Prou. 14.6 For the naturall man perceiueth not the thinges of the spirit for they are foolishnes vnto him neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned 1. Cor. 2.14 Of whom that S. Peter 2. Epist 3. might giue vs to vnderstaÌ„de hee onely meant he calleth theÌ„ to whom those thinges in S. Pauls Epistles whereof he speaketh are harde and whose fashioÌ„ it is to misunderstaÌ„d not only those things but also the rest of the Scriptures how plaine soeuer both vnlearned also vnstable which is an argumeÌ„t of waÌ„t of the spirit of God of all true desire indeede to finde knowledge wheresoeuer it be And it may be this is the cause why the scriptures seeme hard vnto you of the church of Rome because you are led by the spirit of your Pope
which is but a mā often times an ignorant wicked man to vnderstand the scriptures and haue indeede no true acquaintance with the spirit of God nor any true desire after knowledge but rather after ignorāce because that is the best foūdation of your Religiō And therefore as the fashiō is you measuring another 〈…〉 by your owne happily iudge them to be as hard to all others as to your selues and thereupon by the hardnes thereof discourage them from reading them as much as you cā I am sure whatsoeuer you or any of your fellowes prate hereof that therein is conteined the will and testament of our heauenly father and that this pertaineth to simple and vnlearned artificers as well as to the great learned men of this world For therein and thereby I know that God is no accepter of persons and therefore so far of is it that any hardnes of tearmes or phrases therein conteined to expresse vnto thē or bequeath vnto them their heauenly fathers behestes and bequestes should driue them from the reading and studying of thē that so much the more paines and diligence they ought to vse to atteyne to the right sence thereof For we see in our earthly fathers will the harder the tearines and phrases be wherein he hath giuen vs any thing or willeth vs to doe any thing nature reason hath taught vs not therefore to take and bestow lesse paines cost but a great deale more to seeke to vnderstand the same how much more ought it to be so in this case And I am perswaded that oure heauenly father hath so tempered hardnes with plainenes plainenes with hardnes in the scriptures that the plainenes might allure and encourage euery simple man to reade study them with hope to vnderstand them that the other might admonish him to be no negligent but a careful wise peruser of them so both together make euery one a willing and studious reader of them Which it should seeme both Fulgentius in his sermon of the confessours Gregory in his epist to Leander had obserued in noting that God had so ordred the scriptures as the therein he had prouided for the strong man meate for the weakling milke and that there both the Elephāt might swimme and the lambe safely wade These things notwithstāding whatsoeuer else might be saied further to this purpose I perceiue that you in this your lōg discourse of the hereticks abusing and wresting the scriptures cared not how litle otherwise that which you wrote was to the purpose so the thereby you might gaine thus much as by such experiments to withdraw the mindes of men from the loue study of the scriptures For I know they greatly comber you stād in your way and therefore by your wils you cared not if the people neuer hearde of them wherof you haue giuen an inuincible demonstration in that you haue kept them hidden and shut vp from them as long as you 〈◊〉 vnder the close bushell of an vnknowen tongue And your goodwill towardes thou hath otherwise beene sufficiently bewrayed by the vnreuerent and disgracing speeches vttered by your chiefe great Champions against them as it is well knowen too too often For first for their authority though now some of your side would seeme in that point to speake more modestly not long ago Piggins a great man in his time with you in the first booke and second Chapter of his Hierarchie hath flatly writen that all authority of scripture now necessarily dependeth vpon the authority of the Church For otherwise we could not beleeue them but because we beleeue the Church that giues testimony vnto them adding further that Marke and Luke were not of themselues sufficient witnesses of the gospell and that the gospels were not writen that they might be aboue our faith and Religion but rather to be subiect thereunto And Ecchius another great doctour of yours of the same time in his Enchiridion writing of the authority of the church saieth that the scriptures were not of authenticke authority but through the authority of the Church and therefore he boldly affirmeth that to say that greater is the authority of the scriptures then of the Church is hereticall and the contrary is Catholicke And whereas it was obiected by Brentius in the confession of Wittingberge that one of your crue meaning thereby one Herman had not beene ashamed to say that the scriptures should haue had no greater estimation or credit then AEsops fables but for the testimony of the church Hosius a Bishop and Cardinall of yours writing against the saied Brentius in his third booke being of the authority of the scripture defends it as well inough spoken for saieth he vnles the church had taught vs which is scripture Canonicall it could haue had small authority with vs. Likewise teacheth Melchior Canus in his second book seuēth Chapter of his places of diuinity that it appears not to vs that the scriptures are of God but by the testimony of the Church insomuch that she must determine saieth he what bookes be Canonicall and her authority is a certaine rule whereby either to receiue or to reiect bookes into or out of the Canon Of the same iudgemēt is Canisius in his Catechisme ca. 30. sect 16. and Stapleton in his first Chapter of his ninth booke of the principles of doctrine with a great rabble moe of your writers of greatest account since Luther And this position so liked Ecchius that in the place before cited he writes of the margent Achilles against this position to insinuate that this is a speciall tried captaine of yours And yet when all comes to all your meaning all this while is by the Church to vnderstand onely the Pope forasmuch as none but hee hath the tongue of the Church in weelding For Catherin in Epistolam ad Galatas cap. 2. holdeth that it is the Popes proper priuiledge to canonize or to reiect from the Canon scriptures which is also Canus fift proposition in effect in the Chapter before named This being your meaning Leo the tenth being one of your Popes what Canonicall authority haue you left the scripture if it be true that is writen of him that he talking with Bembus then a Cardinall cōtemptuously saied speaking of the Gospell that that fable of Christ had beene very profitable vnto them And as for the vncertainty of the sēce insufficiēcy of thē who knoweth not what cost vsually alwaies vpon euery light occasion you are ready to bestow in amplifying the hardnes of them in either preferring therefore or equalling the vnwritē word with you call the liuely practise of the church before thē both for plainnes sufficiency Whē you are in this vaine both the fathers of Colen shall be iustified and Piggius also by your Andradius Orthodox Epl. li. 2. p. 104. though they cōpared the scriptures to a nose of waxe he to a leaden lesbian rule and to their further
disgrace Canus may tearme them a dead iudge which can neither heare nor speake in his Chapter booke before named in like sorte others in the following of this comparison with your good allowance shall may call them incken diuinity what else they list as we ofteÌ„ haue shewed you and them the onely rest vpon them scripture men or men whose Religion and diuinity lieth in rags skins of beasts because of such things the bookes are made wherein they are conteined Many beastly blasphemous speeches and assertions thus tending to the disgrace of the Canonicall scriptures any man that list may finde LyndaÌ„s three first bookes of his panoply Hosius booke de expresso Dei verbo his triple dialogue Cusans 2. Epist ad Bohemos 7. Andradius Florebellê° Priereas almost all your famous writers of these later daies euery where full oft where they haue any occasion to weaken those arguments that we vse against you either for that you are in your positions wherein we dissent froÌ„ you without warrant of scripture or that they are contrary to scripture And wheÌ„ we vrge you that of what credit soeuer the tradition of the church be that you so pleade for yet if it be the word of God aswel as the scripture then it must needes be that it agreeth with the scripture is not contrary vnto it for as much as God is alwaies one selfesame and therfore alwaies agreeing with himselfe therefore presse you with that which by the wordes circuÌ„stances of the text of the scripture we are sure is the true sence thereof therfore the vndoubted word of God theÌ„ you euen the greatest of you are driueÌ„ to these poore base shifts to cry out with Cardinal Hosius in his 4. booke against BreÌ„tius in his booke de expresso Dei verbo before named that scripture as it is alleaged of Catholiques it is the word of God but as it is alleadged of heretiques the expresse word of the Deuill or as he saieth also in the later booke if any haue the expositioÌ„ of the RomaÌ„ church of any place of scripture although he neither knowe nor vnderstand whither how it agreeth with the words of the scripture yet he hath the very word of God And when all comes to all though sometime you would make the pore simple people beleeue that in expounding the scriptures you will follow the vniforme consent of holy fathers and councels yet both this Cardinall Hosius in his triple dialogue and Cardinal Cusan in his 2. Epist ad Bohemos tell vs teach vs plainely to vnderstaÌ„d you that you meane no other sence theÌ„ agreeth with the present practise of the RomaÌ„ church when thaâ— sence is giueÌ„ not once blushing to confesse that according to the variablenes of the fashioÌ„ and practise of that church the scriptures must be vnderstood and therefore Cusan coÌ„mends that obedience that is yeelded thereunto simply without reasoning as the Oxe or Asse obeys his master For whatsoeuer sometimes you talke of Popes not erring of the not erring of generall couÌ„cels or of the authority of the fathers none that haue any thing craueiled in tracing you into your starting holes wheÌ„ otherwise you see you must needs be pinched takeÌ„ to your shaÌ„e but he easily seeth that in trueth none of these no nor all these togither with the scriptures themselues are of any credit and authority with you against the present practise of your RomaÌ„ Church One father or the present Pope if he speake hold with that though all the fathers beside are of another minde thogh neuer so many of his predecessors held otherwise yet farewell they in this case you will and must preferre this one before all the other These things being most true notoriously knowen to all men that with any indifferency haue traueiled in the controuersies betwixt you vs euery one hath cause to see howsoeuer somtimes you would seeme to yeeld some thing to the authority of the scriptures that you are at a flat point that neither they nor any authority els of maÌ„ or men old or new shall or may retaine any sence of force against the present practise and receaued opinioÌ„ of your sinagogue And as loÌ„g as you are at this point whatsoeuer you haue said of heretiques abusing of scripture as though you were the only men that had care rightly to vse them vnderstaÌ„d them euery simple body may see that of all men you are they by the variablenes of your Romish church practise which are most likely to make a nose of waxe and leaden rule both of the letter of the scriptures and sence thereof And therefore whereas in your 23. c. you boldly affirme that to draw the scriptures by violeÌ„ce into a wroÌ„g sence is the maner of interpreting the scriptures called at this day the pure word by those that haue professed as long as they liue to be enemies to the trueth most fitly may be vnderstoode of your selues for you are so in loue with the present practise fashion and opinion of your RomaÌ„ church that though that vary neuer so often euen so ofteÌ„ must the scriptures will they nill they vary and alter their sense Howbeit I am not ignoraÌ„t but that in so writing you meant vs though I am sure you shall neuer be able to proue vs either to haue professed at all any enmity with the truth or so to vse to wrest the scriptures But because this is a matter of great importaÌ„ce and therfore such as caÌ„not be determined either by your yea or our nay it shal not be amisse vpoÌ„ this occasioÌ„ to coÌ„sider what souÌ„d rules of interpreting there be that by the same it may be tried whither your interpreting of the scriptures or ours deserue thus to be called a drawing of the scriptures by violence to a corrupt sence The vniforme consent of doctors you would ofteÌ„ seeme as I haue saied in this case to make reckoning of as of a souÌ„d and Apostolicke rule of interpreting them by but this is but for a fashioÌ„ for you haue giuen vs doe daily manifest proofes that wheÌ„ but one or two against all the rest of theÌ„ hold with your curraÌ„t and present practise of your Roman church that now is that that one or two of them ouer wey with you al the rest And besides if this were a necessary rule then none could be interpreters of the scriptures but those that had all or the most part of the doctours to peruse few or none then ancient doctors writers there haue beene so many their names are so vnknowen to most could be sure when they had the consent of the most and best on their side and so neuer should be sure of the sence and for many places very little or nothing oftentimes haue they writen Though therefore we will not shunne the trial of our interpretations with you by this rule yet we account
spirit and whosoeuer amongst vs come vnto the scriptures trusting to their owne wittes and so puft vp with ignorance as you speake we vtterly mislike thē as much as you But that you shoulde giue forth this sentence of yours in such general tearmes against simple poore men amongst vs that trauell in the Scriptures you had neither reason nor charity in so doing Commonly such rash iudging of others proceedeth from a minde euen so qualified as you charge theirs to be and from no other fountaine And who so considereth their grosse ignorance and errors that remaine in your great Clerkes euerie where notwithstanding these scriptures what other learning soeuer they pretend he hath most iust occasion thereby to iudge that either they study the scriptures verie little or els that they come to them with the mindes you talke of And if you woulde tell vs plainelie what you meane by humility of spirit which in this case you speake of wee should soone perceiue that thereby you vnderstand not true Christian humilitie which through a base conceite that it breedeth in the owner stirreth him vp the more earnestlie to craue assistance of Gods spirit and by diligent search of the Scriptures and more carefull vse of all good meanes to compasse the right vnderstanding of them but a popish and slauish kinde of humilitie which must breede in the owner such a seruile depending vpon your Popes will and Churches tradition for the sence thereof as that he admit no sence at al of them though thrust vpon him neuer so plainelie by the euidence of the place that will not fullie agree therewith Which breedeth in all of your side either a flat giuing ouer all reading of them or els such a reading of them as that they must bring a sence vnto them from the tradition of your Church and so enforce that vpon them whither they will or no for howsoeuer the scripture speake the Churches tradition maie not be contraried This is your humblenes of spirit when you haue brought Gods spirit speaking in the Scriptures in subiection vnto your popish spirit but this is a proud humilitie and a cursed meekenes You doe but malitiouslie slander vs in that you would perswade your reader that how bad and simple soeuer the man were before assoone as a bishop hath made him minister we say streight hee hath the holy Ghost and no Scripture is to harde for him if hee can with all say the Lorde and rayle vpon the Pope c. And yet I must tell you that wee thinke it not vnlawfull but very necessarie to paint out your Pope with the colours that are due vnto him that men may the better beware of him and yet wee count that no rayling but wee neither tie the holie Ghost to the imposition of the Bishops handes nor place anie such matter in these things here mentioned by you as you woulde leade your reader to imagine we doe You know we might as easily and sute I am with far more trueth saie that with you how lewd vnlearned soeuer the man bee yet when one of your bishops hath priested him thē if he can cal the Pope most holie father speake reuerētly of your Cardinals bishops other prelates saie fi◠on these heretiques these Lutherans and Zuinglians he is straight a famous and worthie catholique Priest with you But wheras amongst other things you obiect that as a fault to their disgrace that they say the ancient doctours were men and that the generall Councels haue erred it is but to discredit them with the simple For you know that the learned knowe that both fathers and councels haue erred that you your owne selues when they write or determine any thing which you like not wil and doe as plainelie as we acknowledge the same For which point let a man read Andrad first booke writen in defence of the Tridentine faith and but what Pighius hath writen of purpose for such cause to discredit the sixt and seuenth Sinods and hee shall most plainelie perceiue that councels are of no further credit with you then they shall be found to say nothing to your mislike But to make it cleare that it is no absurditie to say or hold that coūcels and fathers may erre and haue erred it is wel knowen that as the first Nicean councell and sundry after accordingly decreed a right against the Arrians for the trueth of Christs manhood so the Tyrian the Sirmiense the Ariminense the Sebucian and the Antiochē councels determined with the Arrians against the Nicean and the trueth The second councel of Nice Act. 5. agreed that Angels and mens soules are bodily and circumscriptible and yet this councel notwithstanding this grosse errour was confirmed by the 6 councel held at Constantinople which Pope Agatho hath allowed for a general councell The 3. councell of Carthage cap. 23. determined that all praiers at the altar should onelie be made to the father The 2 councell of Ephesus was on Eutyches the heretiques side and decreed for him Your late councels of Constance and Basil decreed a dangerous errour in your conceit I am sure whē they decreed the authoritie of the general councell to be aboue the Popes For your holy father could not be quiet vntill he got the contrary decreed in other two Synods at Ferraria and Florence And in the 6 of Constantinople mentioned before there was a perilous heresie agreed on I am sure in your iudgement Canonthirty six against your Popes title namelie that the Bishops of Constantinople shoulde enioy and haue equall priuiledges with them of Rome See also the twenty two Chapter of the Mileuitan councell Ca. the 26. of the 3 councell at Carthage and the 92 Chapter of the African the Epistles of the same to Boniface Caelestine and you shal finde plaine direct Canōs against the Supremacy that now your Popes callēge You were best therfore not onely to be cōtēt that we say general coūcels may er but to learne to say so aswel as we your selues al the sort of you or els you see you are not frēds to your holy father You may doe it I warrāt you without any discredit For August a great doctor in his 2. booke 3. Chap against the Donatists saieth that the very general councels are often corrected the former by the later as often as by triall experience the thing is opened that before was shut And therfore disputing against Maximinus li. 3. ca. 14. he calleth him frō the coūcels to the touchstōe of the scriptures And as for the doctors the same Aug. being one of the chiefe of thē in his 2. booke 2. Chap. against Cresconius plainly cōfesseth that the iudges or doctors of the Church as being mē are oftē deceiued therfore in his 2 booke of one baptisme he writeth that we may argue doubt of the writings of any bishop whosoeuer he be but we may not so doe of the holy scriptures If he had
the like vnto the aboue named heretickes which haue fortified their caÌ„pe with as manie places more then you doe alleage Now if that notwithstaÌ„ding the scriptures by theÌ„ alleaged you doe condemne theÌ„ as hereticks because that they did interpret theÌ„ coÌ„trary to that that the l Vnderstanding by the Church the true Church that is one of our reasons but that is not al why we reiect them and their maner of alleaging them principally we reiect them because by the plaine euidence of the scriptures we can confute â—hem And to despise the iudgement of the popish Church is not to despise the iudgement of the true Church of Christ church doeth teach to saie trueth you can imagin no other excuse to what purpose doe you take vpon you the names of Catholickes seeing that you commit the like offence The diuersities of those olde heresies grounded vpon the Scriptures ill interpreted doe teach vs that vvee shoulde not permit the noise of your reformed Gospell that soundeth so shrill to make vs reele froÌ„ a Yours is but ancient as Ieroboams religion was when the 10 tribes were brought into captiuity our ancient faith without going so farre to seeke that that we haue so neere at haÌ„d Let vs talke of the present time how manie coÌ„trarie sects doth there raigne How manie heads of heresies b With variety of names you need lesly increase the number as your forfathers were woont to doe with those whoÌ„ they first called Waldenses Some are Lutherans some Anabaptists some PuritaÌ„s some ProtestaÌ„ts some PrecisiaÌ„s all these doe fortifie their caÌ„pes with Scriptures to fight one against another The ZuingliaÌ„s the Caluinists on the other side doe write that al these doe erre and they proue it by Scripture The Anabaptists laugh at al the rest The Prophets Celestes which is another sect doe no lesse grounding themselues vpon their reuelations because that Dauid saieth * Psalm 84. Heare what the Lorde doeth speake in me The Deists or Trinitaries which are come last of al crie out and saie that all they are heretickes and they proue it by the olde and new Testament I praie now tell me which of al these shall I receiue seeing that they doe all alleage the holie Scriptures If we receiue some and not all those that are refused will saie that wee offer them wrong for they haue c This is but your saying still for you shall neuer be able to proue this their shoppes stored with as good stuffe of the scriptures and aswell alleadged as all the rest If we receiue them all it will be a renewing of the olde confusion of Babylon through the neglecting of so manie Gospels If you saie that we ought to follow those that conforme themselues most vnto the pure vvord of God that will come to one ende for if I doe demaunde of you how we shall know which doe conforme themselues most vnto the trueth d Indeade we say and we are not ashamed of it that onely by the assistance direction of the holy Ghost in trying their interpretations by the scriptures it must be discerned who alleâ—geth them best you answere me that it must be done by the grace of the holie Ghost sent by the Lord if with a true heart he is inuocated of the faithful Seeing you know so wel the way how to agree togither how coÌ„meth it to passe that you haue not vsed it this fortie or fiftie yeares which are the precincts of the time since your ancient Church began seeing that you haue assembled so manie times togither e We haue done so and Gods name be praised for it so far we haue obtained our praier that we are able by the light of Gods spirit to discerne who amongst all these and all others amongst whom you papistes are the principall alleages them best with those we holde peace for the rest we morne yet comforting of our selues with this that necessary it is for the trial of the Lords that there be such sects why haue yee not praied vnto the Lorde to sende the spirit of trueth to make peace amongst his Apostles I thinke that you are not so vnshamefast that you will denie the quarels and debates that haue risen among you f The stirre betwixt these two though it hath bene more then should bee yet neither so much hath it bene at least for the followers of Caluin as you woulde seeme nor nothing comparable to the brawlings and furious contentions amongst your selues often I doe not say in light words but in great battailes in railing processes in horrible excoÌ„munications sent from the Churches of the Lutherans vnto the Caluinists froÌ„ the Caluinists vnto the Lutherans as I haue set forth at large in the booke that I made of the Sacrament therefore yee are greatly ouerseene that ye haue not inuocated the spirit of the Lorde as Caluin hath taught you in his Catechisme to the end that you may come to some accorde The XXVII Chapter FIrst here you aske vs whither it be good to beleeue al maner of people that alleage scripture We answere you no but with S. Ioh. 1. Epist 4. We wish all men to trie the spirits whither they be of God or no before they beleeue theÌ„ And we adde further with Iohn in the same place Hereby shall yee knowe the spirit of God Euery spirit that confesseth that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God and that spirit which confesseth not that is not of God but is the spirit of Antichrist By which wordes wee answere fullie your second demaunde also and giue you a proofe that our spirit is of God and yet neither these heretiques which you name nor yours any better then that spirit of Antichrist which Iohn speaketh of For I am sure you must needs graunt mee if you consider these wordes of Saint Iohn well that hee speaketh here onelie of confessing soundlie and rightly that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh which wee doe as wee are able to proue by the Scriptures truelie alleadged and neither they nor you are able to proue that and therefore this is a plaine proofe that ours is of God and neither yours nor theirs can be They confesse him not aright to be come in the flesh in that one way or other they erred not onelie in the doctrine of his office but also held some heresie or other against the trueth of his person And you confesse him not aright to be come in the flesh because not onely with some of the ancieÌ„t heretiques as namelie the Marcionites for the loue you haue to your fiction of TraÌ„substaÌ„tiation you hold him to haue such flesh as shall for your peeuish pleasures be without all the naturall properties of humane flesh and so a very phantasme and not flesh indeed but also most craftily you take from him that glorious office that the Scripture giueth him and translate it to what you list
gibing you knowe wel enough who hath a right vnto and that â—heir place is knowen though your purgatory had neuer beene dreamed of for when they reade Luthers workes they are Lutherans when they meete with Caluins workes they are Caluinists at the last they doe not know which side indeede is the truest being both false therefore I thinke it were good that a sequestration were made that neither God nor the Deuill might haue part of their soules till there were a farther inquiry made of such a number of sects that some good and honest arbitratour might giue iudgement as concerning which party hath most right And in the meane while I beseech god to open so the eies of the people that they may see both your errours and their owne and that through the abundance of their sinnes he permit theÌ„ not to fall into an Heathenisme vnto the which you doe seeke to drawe them with so many contrarie Gospels The XXVIII Chapter ONce againe you obiect vnto vs the contentioÌ„ betwixt the Lutherans and Caluinists which you say is cause sufficient not onely to make you stay from yeelding your consent to either of vs though otherwise you were willing to forsake your ReligioÌ„ which wrongfully you call Catholique but also so troubleth the consciences of them that reade the bookes writen on both sides that they are led one while on the one side anone againe on the other so in the end they cannot tell of what Religion to be For whose sakes though otherwise as you say we giue absolute sentence that the Catholique church hath erred eueÌ„ froÌ„ the Apostles times to this present in praying to God for the soules in purgatory you thinke yet we should appoint some third place or other to receiue their soules vntill it were determined with of these belong to God and which to the deuill And then you conclude this Chapter with a solemne praier to God to open the peoples eies to see both our errours their own sinnes least for them thorowe these varieties of opinions amongst vs they bee drawen to heathenisme by Gods permission This contention in the later ende of your former Chapter you wonderfully amplifie telling vs of great battels railing processes and horrible excommunications that haue passed about this matter of the sacrameÌ„t on both sides and yet there in another booke which you haue made you say of the sacrament you signifie vnto vs that you haue bestowed more cost to amplify this matter Against this such like out-cries of these men about this matter gentle Reader thou art to arme and streÌ„gthen thy selfe with that which I haue set downe in the fourth Chapter concerning this matter whereby I haue made euident demonstration vnto thee that it is no new thing amongst the famous teachers in the Church and true members thereof to haue as great hoat contentions as euer there hath beene amongst vs in this And if that which I haue saied there were not sufficieÌ„t I could now further shew you that not only there is as great a coÌ„trouersie now and hath beene a long time amongst themselues the nature of their Religion considered as any they can charge vs with namely this whither their Pope or generall Councels haue the greater and higher authority but also I might easily againe say and say truely as they themselues know well enough that in ancient times in the Churches of Christ there were such lamentable and grieuous contentions betweene Paulinus and Flauianus Lucifer and Eusebius the Meletians and Eustathians all yet otherwise being for and in the substantialest pointes of Religion sound Christians as that with great trouble to the Church they shunned one anothers communion and that for verie many yeares togither as you may reade in Epiphanius libro 1. Tom. 2. in Theodoret lib. 1. cap. 8. c. in Socrates libro 2. cap. 33. 34. and in Zozomen libro 2. cap. 17. 18. And wee reade histor tripart libro 1. cap. 12. that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were at such hoate contention and enmity and yet they were famous Christians and Bishops both that departing one from the other the one spitefully saied to the other thou shalt neuer die Bishop and the other saied to him as vncharitably neither shalt thou get home to thy Bishopricke aliue both which their imprecations or predictions as the storie shewes came euen so to passe For Chrysostome died banished and the other before he got home to Cyprus If you would see what controuersie there was betwixt Cyprian Cornelius and Stephanus Bishops of Rome reade Augustine contra Donatistas libro 5. cap. 23. 25. and Euseb lib. 7. cap. 3. 4. And who is so ignorant that the Church stories and ancient writers ministers vnto vs but too too great store in all ages of controuersies and those also too hoatly followed euen amongst Christians of great name and fame in their times And therefore what vaine thing is it either for you or any of your fellowes in this sort still to amplifie this one controuersie about the Sacrament amongst vs as though it were sufficient cause of all or of any of these thinges which you inferre thereupon against vs. Had there beene any wisedome in them that liued in these ancient times when these contentions were that I haue spoken of here and elsewhere thereupon to haue gathered either all or any of these thinges Nay it is euident that if thereupon they had either stoode a loofe from the trueth growen Neuters or Atheists that they had beene without excuse before God For seeing to know the trueth and to be settled in it is a thing so necessary as it is the more difficult it is made by such meanes to finde it out the more thereby they that are the Lordes and haue anie grace are prouoked to labour and search to finde it and to settle themselues the stronglier in it And therefore seeing such offences haue beene and alwaies in some measure are like to bee for the exercising of the Church and triall of Gods children you and such as you that by such discourses as this leade the people to gather such lessons thereupon as to suspende their iudgement till all partes be agreed or now to bee caried this way now that way as long as the contention lasteth seeme to be disposed to teach the people to learne how to bee Atheistes If you minded to haue them settled in Religion and preserued from neutralitie the mother of Atheisme it were your partes to ioyne with vs especially in these great diuersities of opinions about Religion that be now a daies in the world to perswade them most diligently to search the Scripture and thereby to trie all spirits and their opinions whither they be of God or no yea euen so much the more for these varieties sake that so they might finde the trueth and be settled in it For they may not fainte or giue ouer thus doing for this for necessary it is that
fathers as you herein take it for granted on your side For in trueth you haue none of these on your sides but the onely grounds of your religion are your owne priuate and singular interpretations traditions of men without warrant either from the Scriptures indeed soundly vnderstood or from generall Councels or ancient fathers that are worthy to bee of credit in Gods Church For as we haue made appeare in infinite discourses against you al these are farre more strong on our side then with you And therfore you rather are the fooles that seeme wiser theÌ„ all these in your owne conceit and so labour to draw vs from the ancient catholique faith and Christs true Church by your corrupt glosses allegations of these by your vaine vncertaine traditions of mortal men Wherof let the reader take for a tast these few proofes amoÌ„gst infinite others vsed by vs. The Scripture with vs teacheth iustification freely by faith in Christ without workes Rom. 3.24.25 Ephes 2.8.9 and you condeÌ„ne theÌ„ as heretiques that teach so The scriptures with vs teach that Christs offering himselfe once for al hath made perfect all them that are sanctified Heb. 10.14 and you coÌ„trarily teach that they must be perfected by the iteration of his sacrifice in your masse by a number of other things done by themselues and others for them The Scriptures with vs teach that Christ is ascended into heauen Coloss 3.1 Act. 1.9 c. and that the heauens must containe him vntill the restitution of al things Act. 3.21 and you contrarily wil haue him as oft as you consecrate to come downe to hide himselfe vnder the formes of bread and wine The scriptures with vs say concerning the cup in the Sacrament to all Christians rightly prepared Drinke yee all of this Matth. 26.22 and you say it is heresie to holde that the lay people must drinke thereof To proceed a little further the same Scripture in the 2. Commandement Exod. 20.4 forbiddeth as we doe both the making and worshipping of Images to represent God the father the sonne or the holy Ghost withal and you allow both these The scriptures prefer as we doe the speaking of fiue words in the Church that may bee vnderstoode before ten thousand in a tongue not vnderstoode 1. Cor. 14.19 and your Church as it appeareth in hauing all your seruice in lat in preferreth fiue words spoken there iâ— an vnknowen tongue before ten thousand spoken in the vulgar tongue of the people to their edification Lastly the Scriptures as we doe account mariage honourable among al men in al estates and the mariage bed vndefiled Heb. 13.4 insomuch that they aduouch the forbidding of it though vnder pretence of holines to bee a doctrine of Deuils 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 yet you condemne it in your priestes as a filthie life In like maner is there a plaine contrariety betwixt your religion and the decrees of ancient and general councels In my answere to your 17. Chapter I haue shewed you already that the ancient famous first general Councel of Nice in the 6. Canon thereof is directly against that preheminence that now you giue to the Bishop of Rome ouer all Churches There also you haue heard the councell of Gangra pronounce you accursed for your doctrine against the mariage of ministers I haue also shewed you before that the 6. generall councell holden at Constantinople in the 36. Decree hath flatly determined against the principall article of your religion your Popes supremacy in determining that the Bishop there should haue equal priuiledges with your Pope or Bishop of Rome The councels also of Constance and Basil against your receiued opinion now preferred the authority of a generall Councel before the authority of your Pope And certaine it is that in the time of Charles the great there was a councel called at Franckeforde whereat the Bishops of France Germany Italie were assembled about the year as Regin writeth in his 2 booke 794 where the making and worshipping of Images allowed of by the false Synode of the Greekes as he tearmeth it was condemned And Hickmaâ—e Archbishop of Rheames writing against another bishop of that 〈◊〉 Chap. 20. somewhat about these times calleth this a general couÌ„cel called by the wil coÌ„maÌ„demeÌ„t of the Pope Emperor Charles witnesseth that not onely there the false Synode of the Greeks that made for Images was confuted reiected but also a great booke made thereof then sent to Rome As for fathers and ancieÌ„t doctors I haue plentifully shewed to be against you already for the sufficiency authority of the Scriptures Chap. 3. 5. against your real presence Chap. 11. against your doctrine of IustificatioÌ„ other points of your religion Chap. 16. And it were as easie a matter to shew theÌ„ so to be against you with vs in almost al the rest of the pointes in controuersie betwixt vs. At least this most confidently I doe aduouch that for 600. yeares you shall neuer proue them al nor halfe to be on your side in the third part of the questions betwixt you and vs and therfore you doe but too shamefully deceiue the simple people in this case with a shew bragge of that with you are of al other furthest froÌ„ The XXX Chapter OVr Sauiour Christ did approue his vocation after another sort then you doe yours a But in another place you know he saieth that the word that he had spokâ—n should iudge them at the last day Iohn 12. Search saieth * Ioh. 5. he the scriptures for they heare witnes of me he doeth not say that they are Iudges as you say for you wil haue none other arbitrator but the word of God You know that they are two different thinges to beare witnes and to be a Iudge and yet the scriptures of the old Testament doe coÌ„taine not only the verity of the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ but therewithal the very sufficient probation of his person to teach vs the true word of God to ouerthrowe destroy the whole kingdome of Sathan as it is plainely seene by those that list to looke vpon the oracles of the olde patriarches Prophets It is writeÌ„ in the third of Gen. that God saied vnto the womaÌ„ that her seede should breake downe the serpeÌ„ts head And likewise in the saied * Gen. cap. 12.15.19.22 24. booke there is mentioÌ„ made of this diuine seede of Abraham in the 15. 53. Chapters of Esay in the 2. Psalme Dauid doeth talke of it And in like maner Daniel Moses AaroÌ„ withal the rest of the prophets in their sacrifices haue very perfectly painted the coÌ„ming passioÌ„ of our Sauiour Moses left writeÌ„ in the prophecy of Iacob that the Messias should come when the roial scepter and the administration of it should be taken from the line of Iuda Daniel was not content to say as the rest that he should come b There
pulled downe and they cast out and those that did offer sacrifice vnto theÌ„ grieuously punished then saieth he the iustice is not certaine through the pâ—ssion or for hauing suffered death but the death and passion is glorious when it is for the sustaining of the true faith And therefore saieth he our sauiour because he would not haue the simple deceiued vnder this colour of trueth he did not onely say blessed are those that suffer but hee added for iustice But this can in no wise be attributed vnto those heretiques that suffer to seperate the vnion and concorde of the Catholique church c In that booke it appears these Donatists did indeed complaine and yet brag of their persecutioÌ„s but thus much I finde not there testified against them or of theÌ„ In his booke de haeresibus ad quod vult Deum he writeth to this effect of them And in his booke de vnitate Ecclesiae contra Epistolam Petiliani he doeth write that the Donatists which were a sect of heretiques that raigned in his time to confirme their doctrine they did not attende that others should put them to death but they did cast them selues downe from high places others did burne themselues in the fire to be honoured after their death as Martyrs and that is more they did threaten men if they would not kill them d He writes in that epistle no such thing you had the worst lucke in quoting of your testimonies that euer had aâ—y for 3. for one you cite wrâ—ng S. Cyprian in like maner doeth write in the first booke of his Epistles in the first Epistle that though an heretique suffer death for Christ that doeth not confirme him as a Martyr but that his death is the very punishment of his errourâ— and that he cannot go to heauen which is the mansion of the humble for seeing that he doeth seperate himselfe froÌ„ the house of peace which is the church yee know well of what church he doeth speake that he cannot be receaued into heaueÌ„ c. All those that haue writen the histories of the BohemiaÌ„s doe say that in the time of e Zischâ— was a famouâ— souldier captain but minister he was none one Zischa a martial minister of the heresie of the Heborits or Hussites there were a certaine sect of heretiques called Adamites like vnto the olde heresie of the Nicholaites for they did saie as these doe that mens wiues should bee common and they vvent all naked euery one taking the woman hee liked best whom hee did carie vnto their minister and before him hee did saie the holie ghost doeth inspire me to lie with this person then the saied reuerent father did giue him his blessing saying Increase and multiplie and so they went awaie This aboue named Zischa although hee had done a number of wicked deedes yet hee determined to abolish and take awaie this sect f And therefore popish traytours that are executed amongst vâ— for high treason though they seeme to take their death neuer so patiently we lawfully couÌ„â— call tâ—aitours though you â—anonize them for Saints and so he caused two women to be burnt for this abhomination the which two notwithstanding the torment of the fire did sing and giue thankes to God for that it had pleased him to permit them to die for so holy so iust a quarrell Did not Michael Seruet who was once master Caluins dearling rather desire to suffer at Geneua then he would confesse that Christ was God and yet notwithstanding his great patience or to saie the trueth diuilish obstinacy cannot be sufficient to make him a Martyr nor to perswade you to beleeue his doctrine g What need all these seing none of vs euer stande vpon the bare sufferings of meÌ„ no more then you you should yet haue named the places where these things are writen and not thus haue sent vs to seeke we cannot tell where There is a certaine minister of the Lutherans called Ioachim Westphall who in a worke of his doeth mocke at Caluin who did vaunt that within these fiue years aboue an hundred had suffered death to sustaine the Gospell of Geneua and he doeth answere him at large prouing that the sect and doctrine of the saied place ought not to bee approued for the multitude of false martyrs for the Anabaptists whoÌ„ he doeth iustly coÌ„deÌ„ne haue had of their sect a great many more for in lesse theÌ„ three years there haue suffered a great number more then euer there did suffer of Caluinists in fifteene And to conclude this matter the saied Westphal doeth say that the deuill hath his Martyrs euen as well as God with whom like a good sergeant he doeth march giuing the vauÌ„tward vnto the martyrs of the Caluinists that haue suffered at Geneua h The more to blame are they if they should say so but though heat of contentioÌ„ caused Westphalê° to write so bitterly I thinke very few will ioyne with him in this iudgemeÌ„t sure I am they whom you cal Caluinists doe not iudge so of them because of that 1. Co. â— v. 15 So that if one demaund of the Lutherans whither go those that die in the Religion of Caluin of Beza or of the Anabaptists they saie to the Diuell And if one demande of the Caluinists in like maner whither go the Anabaptists and the Lutherans they saie likewise to the Diuell And who would put the like question to the Anabaptists I am assured they would saie at the others to the Diuell For my part I beleeue you I assure you all three i This argueth a most diuelish and profane spirit in the writer And seeing that yee agree so well that one serue for an others harbenger we were very fooles if wee should stay your passage but let you go all to the Diuell for company for I thinke if you were all gone our debates would cease and hell would be so full that the deuill would long for no more The XXXI Chapter YOu neede not to tell vs that Augustine and Chrysostome haue taught that it is not the death but the cause that maketh a martyr For we know that to be a most certaine trueth and the generall doctrine of all good writers both olde and new and therefore you might haue spared your paines bestowed in the proofe of this And therefore most willingly wee acknowledge as Christ hath taught vs that onely they are blessed martyrs that suffer for righteousnes sake Mat. 5. and none to be martyrs howe patientlie soeuer they seeme to suffer their deathes that by for an il cause either in life or doctrine And yet we are not ignorant that many haue died in lewde and for lewd opinions who yet haue seemed to die willingly and cherefully and therefore wee deny not but that it may be true that some such wicked women of that beastlie heresie of the Adamites were put to death in Zischaes time in Bohemia died as you write and
shew your selfe to bee not onely one that dare write any thing how grosse a lie soeuer it be but as malitious in your iudgement as euer was any First you set downe not onely that the Anabaptists condemne thē that die in Luther Caluins religion to hell which is likely inough because they were franticke heretiques haue denied the foundation but also the Lutherans and Caluinists will doe giue that iudgement one of another and yet I am sure you are not able truely to say that euer any of Caluins iudgement saied or wrote so Secondly though your owne iudgement be short yet so it is set downe that you shew that you beleeue that all the three sorts go thither And such care compassion your catholique heart had of it whē you had done that you iest at it accounting your selues fooles if you should stay their passage thither For if we were al gone for company you thinke you should be at quiet you say hel would be so full that the deuil would long for no more companie Is this your popish diuinity to make sport at the damnation of men And hold you this for a principle that it is folly to stay men from running togither to hel Indeed it may be For I haue read that it is a rule amongst you that if your Pope lead headlong with him multitudes by heapes to hell yet no man may be so hardie as to say vnto him why doest thou so Distinct 40. Cap. Si Papa But howsoeuer you account this diuinity certaine I am you wil finde it that in no two things more the deuils shew themselues deuils then in these In laughing and reioicing in the damnation of the soules of men and in letting them go freely for company to hell without stoppage as many as will Truely truely God must take from you this profane and deuilish spirit of yours and giue you grace to repent of it or els you may be sure how many soeuer die and go to hel before you hell wil long for you and you shal finde place and roome inough there I warrant you The XXXII Chapter THere is a certaine minister of the Lutherans called a What will not a passionate aduersary say to disgrace them that he writes against If like testimonies of men of your Religion writing yet in some points one against another wil be admitted it is an easy matter thus to discredit your whole faction Heshusius the which within these three yeares hath made a booke against Caluin Peter Boquin Theodore de Beza Gulielmus Elcimalcius he saieth amongst other things that Carolstadius Zuenfeldius Caluin Beza doe shew well the vncertainty of their faith by the diuersities of opinions that there is amongst thē the which fault saieth he doeth proceede of this that they haue forsaken the true sence of the scripture to follow the opinions of their owne heades b And yet in truth lyeth therein himselfe And in that very booke the saied authour doeth giue the lie to Caluin because that in that hee wrote against the aboue named Westphal hee saieth that Martin Luther and his adherents did acknowledge him as their brother the which thing he maintaines to be false c Greater more disagreement◠there are amōgst you papists and therefore these conclusions presse you rather then vs. Thus seeing yee agree togither like dogs and cattes that all these sects haue confirmed their false doctrine with the shedding of their owne bloud it is best to conclude as we haue saied before that it is not the paine nor the tormēt that doeth make the righteous martyr except we should saie that diuerse contrary messengers are sent from one master the which is notoriously false for that good king frō whom the trueth doeth come indeede hath so good a memory that he doeth neuer send contrary messengers but rather his faithfull seruāts doe all with one voice and one accord honour him as the father of our sauiour Iesus Christ The XXXII Chapter HEre againe as in the former Chapter you labour to discredit Caluin Beza and others onely with the testimony of Heshusius an vtter enemy of theirs about the quarrel of the cōtrouersie of the Sacrament whom heat of contention and a desire therefore to disgrace his aduersaries rather then iust cause led thus to write For what reason had he there to ioyne Zuenfeldius with Caluin and Beza with whom they helde no more communion and fellowshippe then hee himselfe and Corolstadius who was a doctour in Wittenberge in Luthers time and an associate to him in disputatiō against Ecchius he might with more reason haue ioyned with Luther himselfe and his partners then with these And howsoeuer the intemperate heate of contention emboldened Heshusius to giue Caluin the lie most certaine yet it is that Melancthon a great frende of Luthers whom Heshusius cannot deny was an adherent of Luther accounted of Caluin as of a good brother For in an Epistle which he wrote to him he calleth him Charissim◠fratrem most deare brother it is the 187. Epistle in the booke of Caluins Epistles And I am perswaded that what Caluin wrote he was able to iustify in this behalfe how rudely soeuer angry Heshusius gaue him the lie This obiection of our disagreement hath beene oft enough vrged and answered alreadie It seemeth that you haue great penurie of arguments against vs when this must come in thus often especially seeing as I haue shewed greater contentions haue beene amongst your selues In which cases would you haue thought a mā should haue dealt wel with you if the bitter speeches of the one side had alwaies beene taken as sufficient argumentes to disgrace the other Or would you haue liked that thereupon a man should inferre as you doe that you agreed no better then dogges and cattes and that therefore you so differing amongst your selues came not both from one master God who vseth not to sende contrary messengers this had beene an harde conclusion against a number of you in the time of your schismes betwixt your Popes and Antipopes and in the times of the contentiōs of your Friers with your other Prelates and also amongst themselues whereof I haue put you in remembrance before Chapter twenty eight And yet if you will needes meate this measure vnto vs vpon occasion of this one controuersie about the maner of Christs reall presence you must bee contented that vpon moe and greater contentions amongst you wee sende you home as good measure againe As for your conclusion that it is not the paine but the cause that maketh a true martyr wee graunted it you at the first but where to make way to bring it in here againe you insinuate not onely that the Donatists Adamites Seruetus and the Anabaptistes of whom you haue spoken in your former Chapter haue died to confirme their false Religion which we graunt you but that these also that you spake of last Lutherans and Zuenfeldians haue
insomuch that I dare bee bolde to say it is as much to the good of this Church and common wealth as if an other such Vniuersity as one of these had beene now founded built and endued as richly as either of these now is And though our Cleargy men now be not able to builde so many Colledges as yours were yet those things that they doe that way though they match not yours in quantity they yet may ouermatch yours quickely in quality For you know in the Gospell the widowes two mites which she threw into the treasury for the poore of the little that shee had wel gotten was in Christs account a greater almes then theirs which threw in farre greater summes of their superfluities Marke 12. And well knowen it is that the richest and greatest of ours are for their places but beggers to them that haue beene of like or the same place amongst you whereof the reason is not onely that they lacke a number of deuises that yours had to encrease their gaine but also that they haue not your Romish consciences which with your Popes dispensation could make them wide enough to swallow vp the commodities not onely of as many benefices but also Bishopricks and other offices ciuill or ecclesiasticall as they could possibly get Whereof it came that of their very superfluities vnlesse they had beene prouder then Lucifer and more wastfull in belly cheare then euer was the rich glutton some thing might well be spared and of a number of them so much as might haue procured the building of many moe then they left behinde them Hospitals and Colledges though you would so insinuate we haue pulled downe none but haue increased the number of them And as for your Abbies other â—loisters of religious houses you had for the inriching and building of them vnder pretence of your requiting of them with your Masses Dirges and trentals deuoured so many widowes houses robbed so many heires and fatherlesse children spoiled so many Parishes of the ordinary maintenance for their ministers and since the liuers in them were growen to such height of sinnes not to be named as that in the iust iudgement of God there could no lesse punishment come vpon them then the vtter defacing and ouerthrowing of them lest if they had beene left easie to haue beene set in their former state againe they should too easily and too quicklie haue beene shoppes and sties for the like filthinesses and abhominations againe And yet here with vs in EnglaÌ„d Cardinall Woolsey by the Popes authority pulled downe the first and to the suppression of the rest many of your bishops and Cleargy vnder king Henry consented and in diuers other places they haue beene also by lawfull and sufficient authority orderly for these causes defaced and doubtles though not turned to so good vses as they might perhaps haue beene if the wrath of God against them for the foresaied causes woulde haue suffered it yet I am fully perswaded to a better vse by farre yea infinite degrees then they were before And therefore these things considered this rather may be counted a good worke in vs thus to haue defaced them and conuerted their vse then a fault whereof wee need repent vs And consequently vaine is your charging of vs with seeking to make amends with giuing a trifle to the poore This is a fault that rather toucheth your kingdome then vs for wee account all almes and other outward good workes whatsoeuer to be vnprofitable to the doer vnlesse they be done with goods gotten with a good conscience which wil ouerthrow most of the glory of the gay works that you most brag of you are they that care not so your Church be inriched if it be with the farming of concubines dispensation for any sin with the rentes yearly for the open stewes that with the which they get by whoring during their liues so you haue it when they die For ther was nothing more coÌ„moÌ„ theÌ„ for your priests to farme coÌ„cubines though they might not be suffred to haue lawful wiues experieÌ„ce hath taught that there was no sin but ther might be marchaÌ„dise made of it in your romish court faire the your Popes a long time haue takeÌ„ rent for the stewes in Rome that yearely a good round summe that they haue bene glad to take the goods of those harlots when they died for their Churches vse it is most notoriouslie knowen And what hath beene more vsuall both in practise and doctrine with you then to teach much satisfaction for sinne and redemption of former faultes to bee performed by almes giuing especially so it were to your Priestes and Clergy men neuer caring so you might come by it of their goods aliue or dead whether euer it was well gotten or no For in trueth this hath beene the policy that hath brought your Clergy to so infinite wealth as they were of and made all other but beggers in comparison of themselues Therefore now let them that haue any iudgement as you wish looke vpon the fruite of your trees whether they bee so good or no as you here make bragges of The XXXV Chapter NOw seeing that you haue visited our garden if a man maie bee so bold I pray lend vs the keies that we may in like maner visite yours that we may see the fruits of your religion Read al the histories writeÌ„ froÌ„ the passion of Christ to our daies you shal find that al those sects that haue left our Roman Church haue done more mischiefe in one yeare a Your Romish Church that now iâ— is as farre gone from the ancient pure Roman Church as euer any heretiques went froÌ„ it and of you especially your saying is tâ—ue being seperated from the saied Church then they did in an huÌ„dred years before But because our meaning is not to recite all the acts of your predecessors enemies to the Catholique Church it shall suffise to make a short discourse of those that haue bene of late daies I meane the Bohemians or Hussites whose followers you doe affirme your selues to be for in your godly booke of Martyrs b This is vntrue as euery one that wil view the â—ct and monumeÌ„ts of the Church writen by master Fox may see you haue placed Iohn Hus as the first Martyr of your ancieÌ„t Church who was burnt for an heretique about an 120. years agone eueÌ„ as we accoÌ„pt c Your religion and Stephens agree â—o wel that if hee were aliue again you would be as ready as euer were the Iewes to stone him whatsoeuer you say of him now he being deade S. StepheÌ„ to be the first Martyr of our Church Now to know whither yeâ—e of the opinioÌ„ of the Hussites or no that I leaue for some other time and for this present I am content to condescende to that that you haue writen I meane that Iohn Hus did preach your Gospell and made a number of such faithfull persons
as you are and that hee suffered death to sustaine your Religion Then let vs see what good fruit this did produce vnto vs those that haue writen the stories of Boheme and among others d Your authour you know was a great papist and afterwardes a Pope therfore worthily he is to be suspected as a partiall reporter and yet cap. 35. before he is enforced to coÌ„fesse that the Senate had secretly murdered so many of those that called the Pope Antichrist that the bloud of theÌ„ running out of the gate bewraied it whereupon this and some other extremities followed Aeneas Siluius doe testifie that in the yeare of our Lorde God 1418. there was a certaine monke that became an Hussite in the citty of Prage which is the Metropolitane of that kingdome the which accompanied with a number of companions as zelous as himselfe they did execute so horrible a cruelty that eleuen of the principall magistrates were driuen to flye from the Citty to saue their liues and seuen more for in all they were 18. being taken by them they did cast them out at the windowes of their owne houses and did kill them with their speares as they fell This was done Sigismondus being then Emperour in the time of Martin the first Pope of Rome of that name Vneslaus being then king of Boheme The next yeare after the death of this saied Vneslaus they did spoile a This al is too much and more then either your authour or the euidence of the matter wil beate by far al the monasteries Abbeies and Churches of of the saied kingdome And among others one Iohn Zischa who was their captaine in the Cittie of Prage he made them all passe through the edge of the sworde without sparing man woman or childe And the like was done in another towne of the saied kingdome called Messim the yeare 1423. It were too tedious to write all their cruelties they did not care whither those of their coÌ„pany were of their sect or no b This is your slander for any thing that I can see in your author or any where else but indeed no pâ—ople sâ— barbarous but you caÌ„ finde in your hearts to vsâ— them against good Christians yea he hath bene a Pope of Rome that hath betraied a Christian Emperour into the hâ—ndâ— of the Turkes for so dealt Gregory 9. with the Emperâ—ur Fredericke witnes Caspinian for some were Idumeans some Palestines some Moabites and some other Amelecites euen as of your bountifull goodnesse ye call all those that will not be of your sect Papists Infidels Hypocrites Idolaters and therefore we may iustly saie that you are their right heares apparent although yee haue gone somewhat before them and as our sauiour saied accomplished the measures of your fathers by the heroicall acts that you haue done in this c You may wholy thanke your selues for the desolate estate of France almost desolate kingdome of France there needeth no other witnes to proue it but the testimonie of your owne eies and eares which haue hearde and seene more almost then any man can write Therefore I beseech you not to reproch any more the abuses of our ecclesiasticall ministers for although it be so that they haue neede of some reformation yet I doe thinke it is necessarie to choose some better staied persons then you are d If you may be iudge this wil easily be the sentence for you haue done more harme in fiue yeares then ours haue done in 1500. S. Augustine in the first booke of the cittie of God e Capite 1. you might haue added doeth magnifie in the Christians behalfe the diuine fauour of God for he doeth write that when the Gothes did destroie and spoile the citty of Rome the Romans although they were not Christians did retire themselues for their sauegard into the churches and Temples of the martyrs And the Gothes being but a barbarous nation had that respect to God that they neuer durst nor would enter into those holy places to doe them any displeasure f It is a wonder that yoâ— that haue so openly slaiâ—e thousands in Châ—rches since your most barbarous and faithles massacres of late in France began as it is notoriously knowen not yet beyond the memory of man in Merindall and Cabriers should yet bee so impudent to obiect this to vs as a fault which yet you haue not proued to haue beene committed by vs wherein you glory as a vertue You which make so great profession of the Gospell haue shewed your selues a great deale more cruell then those barbarous people for they did pardon all those that went to the Temples and you haue in manie places spoiled the churches and murdered al those that yee found in them so that one might well saie to you that that Optatus Myleuitanus in his booke con Parm. Donatist the which was that the Donatists ought to be content you likewise to haue wounded the members of the Church and to haue deuided the people of God f If you would haue learned this lesson it had beene well with vs. at the lest you should haue spared the alters and the teÌ„ples not to make warre against the stones The XXXV Chapter NOw in this you craue the keies to enter by into our garden to visite our trees that so you maie see the fruites of our religion hauing gotten in in your owne pleasant conceit after you had cast your eies about you and looked a while vpon our trees first you bid vs read all the stories since Christ and tell vs that so doing wee shal finde that all those sects that haue left your Romish Religion or Church haue done more mischiefe in one yeare being seperated from you then they did in an hundreth before Now doing as you will vs we finde indeed great hurt hath beene done by the ancient heretiques for the space of six hundred yeares that haue seperated themselues from the Roman Church that then was but withall we finde that our Church is farre liker that Church then your Roman Church that now is and since what hurt soeuer hath beene done by one or other that haue seperated themselues froÌ„ you though we challenge not communioÌ„ with euery one that hath so done your owne doings we finde in stories hath far exceeded theirs in al kinde of impiety Thus hauing in these general words set a good face vpoÌ„ it as though you could say very much of the bad fruites which you finde growing of our Religion you beginne at the yeare 1418 with the sturs in Bohemia laying to our charge the murdering of seuen magistrates of Prage by a certaine Monke and his companions sundry other things done by Iohn Zischa and his army in the time of those warres there then you lay to our charge also once againe al the troubles of late in France preferring vs for cruelty before the Goathes that conquered Rome and yet spared their Temples and those that
and ceremonies noted by him to haue bene in the churches of Christ insomuch that in the 21. Chapter not onely he writeth that altogither truely and in al obseruances of godly praiers two churches could not be found that did fully agree amongst themselues but also that this notwithstāding the vnity of faith christiā peace was preserued maintained amōgst them The like may be seene in Zozomens 7. booke 29. Chapter Your owne Tridentine Catechiser of your parish Priests could see as I noted before that touching dipping the party to be baptized in water pouring it vpon him or sprinkling him with it so that euery one follow therein that order that hee seeth in vse in the Church wherein hee is it is not materiall which way be vsed for which of them soeuer be vsed so saieth he this sacrament may rightly be ministred So much the stranger is it that both you here and he there your whole Tridentine councel should so peremtorily seeke to bind all churches and persons to the strict keeping and obseruing of all your foresaied rites and Ceremonies in the ad ministring of the same Further cōcerning this point I must tell you that for your pleasure I hauing turned to these places which you quote for this purpose as I finde by comparing of yours with them that they mētiō you haue many that they speake neuer a word of in these places as namely your consecrating of your water and Chrisme so lōg before your dealing with the party at the church dore your putting of salt into his mouth your dressing his nostrels and eares withspettle and your giuing him a waxe cādle burning into his hand so thereby and by view of some other places in them I plainely see that you haue now giuen ouer the vse of some which then were vsed vpon the like ground that the rest were which you would seeme to haue from them For first Tertullian in his booke de coronâ militis which is the second place you quote as there he mentions thrise dipping renouncing of the Deuill his pompe and Angels which you would seeme to allow and vse with him so he saieth that being taken from out of the water we tast before hand the temper of milke and honie and from the time of our baptisme for a weeke we absteine frō daily washing and all these doeth he ground a like saying Harum aliarum disciplinarum c. that is of these disciplines if thou requirest the law of the scripture thou shalt finde none tradition shall be pretended to be the authour custome the confirmer and faith the obseruer yet you haue left these two last long ago for any thing that I can learne And Augustine an other of your authours in this case in three of the places named by you mentiōs exufflation which you haue giuen ouer as he doeth some other that you retaine And the same authour vpon the 65. Psalme shewes that in their exorcisme they vsed fire because it is writē in the Psalm passing through fire and water thou shalt come to a refreshing and in his 4. booke ad cathecumenos de Symbolo lib. 4. cap. 1. he saieth that before baptisme was vsed beside the Catechisme exorcisme praier and canticles in sufflation sackcloth bowing of the neck humility of the feet And Hierom vpon the 55. of Esay and against the Luciferians shewes further that then was vsed the tasting of wine and hony Wherefore if the doctours and fathers mentioning of some of your ceremonies binde you to thinke the vse thereof lawfull and necessarie still why should not their authoritie bee of as great force for these which you see they ground aswell as they doe the other And if their mentioning and thus grounding of these notwithstanding you will be at liberty to leaue these why may not we aswell be at our libertie to leaue off some of the other that we finde most needles and most to haue beene abused by you to obscure and darken the simple institutiō of this sacramēt Wil you follow the fathers as farre as you list and leaue them when you list and may no body but you doe so Moreouer in looking vpon this occasion into the monuments of antiquity and the writings of the ancient fathers I must needes aduertise thee Christian reader that I finde great variety in the enumeration of ceremonies about this sacrament in them and likewise great oddes betwixt the opinion and conceite that some of the fathers shewe they had of them from that that others of as good credit as they had whereby it is euident not only that they were not vsed alike al in euery place but in some places and times more and in some lesse but also that some vsed them to one ende and some to another So that no certaine rule either for the ceremonies themselues or for the maner or ende of the vse of them can be deduced from thence Whereupon it must needes follow that for any thing writen by the ancient fathers hereof so that the essentiall parts and things belonging hereunto which haue expresse warrant from the institution thereof be obserued first and then next according to the practise and example of the Apostles and the times next after them necessary instruction and explanation to and of the right vse thereof with conuenient praiers and thankesgiuing meete to be vsed in such an action bee vsed and that also in due time and place by to before fit persons any Church of Christ in any kingdome by the prouinciall authority that it hath may freely reiect so many of the other rites ceremonies as it shall thinke good and likewise reteine so many of them as she findeth may fitly bee reteyned for order and comelinesse without placing any opiniō of necessity holinesse or of merit in them And therefore forasmuch as our Churches carefully haue taken this course in these three points and follow the same in trueth there is nothing that these fathers that you haue named consent vpon about the administring of this sacrament but we fully doe obserue the same And here in Englād especially what fault can you find Of the 5. things your fathers mentiō we reteine vse though not with any superstitious intentiō as you do 2 of thē the rest we haue cut of according both to S. August aduise your pope Stephanus iudgement before noted because the multitude before was too great for the time of the Gospel they were growen into grosse abuse amongst you No essential or necessary thing to bee done is omitted with vs and wee haue besides fully inough for the time of the new Testament wherin we liue in which time it is more likely in such ceremonies rites and fashions for vs to erre rather in retaining too many then in abolishing too many But because neither you shal say nor your reader thinke y these fathers whose names you bring vs to countenance al your ceremonies which you vse about baptisme
againe I require the voice of the sheepheard read me this matter out of the Prophets read it out of the Psalms read it out of the law read it out of the Gospel read it out of the Apostles writings in his book de pastoribus c. 14. and so likewise conclude with him I owe my consent without gainsaying onely vnto the canonicall scriptures .. cap. 61. de naturâ gratiâ and according to these bookes of the scriptures we haue learned of him to iudge freely of all other writings lib. 2 cap. 29. contra Cresconium The fathers are full of such places whereby any man may see that by their very good leaue we are not to be pressed to beleeue or receaue any thing not taught in the scriptures vpon their bare authority and therefore these and such like places in them considered if you would haue had their names the places you cite in them to haue in sadnes bred any sound credit to any of these foure points you alleadge them for either should you haue warraÌ„ted them by good proofe out of the scriptures your selfe or haue shewed vs how they proued them consonant at the least to the same Howbeit because you shall not abuse the Reader to make him thinke that the fathers you name for these matters are further of your opinion then they be indeede as I haue not refused to examine your opinion and the places you send vs vnto for your ceremonies so will I for the Christian readers sake take the paines to deale with you for in al your other 3 opinions of confession praier to Saints for the dead with it your seueral quotations set down for the proofe of the same To go on therefore according to my course begun for confession before the receiuing of the sacrameÌ„t you saie first our sauiour Christ doeth teach vs that the ecclesiasticall ministers haue authority to binde and to forgiue sins and for proofe hereof you set in your margent Iohn 20. Mat. 16. I am sure here by confession that you speake of you meane your auricular confession wherof your Tridentine councel taketh such care that that in the 6 7 and 8 Canon thereof touching this matter it solemnely anathematizeth al those that hold auricular confession not to be necessary to saluation by the law of God saying that it is but the deuise of man Which they there haue defined to be a secret reckoning vp vnto the priest of al mortal sins at the least with al their circumstances whereof by due premeditation the party can haue any remembrance whereunto they bind all persons aboue certaine yeares of both sexes at least once in the yeare and that namely in lent before their receiuing at Easter Now this confession your schoolmen and doctours do teach must be made so fullie and exactly that no sin nor circumstance thereof must be coÌ„cealed for then therby al the labour is lost and the absolutioÌ„ frustrated from al the rest Which doctrine cannot chuse but a number of waies proue a needles and a desperate tormenting of coÌ„scieÌ„ces For first it laieth vpoÌ„ them an ineuitable necessity not onelie to doe that which God neuer required at their hands but also that which either is simply impossible vnto theÌ„ to doe for the multitude of their sins and circumstances thereof or else impossible for them to doe in such maner as that they can satisfie themselues that they haue omitted no piece of due premeditation to call all their sins the circuÌ„stances thereof that they should coÌ„fesse to their remeÌ„braÌ„ce which a nuÌ„ber of your owne side most deuoutly giueÌ„ to doe this in the best maner haue bene enforced to confesse Yet this confession before the sacrament though indeed it bee a thing that hath no ground or warrant at all in the Scriptures but was as both Iohannes Scotus libro 4. sententiarum Distict 17. art 3. and Anton part 3. histatit 19 doe confesse first imposed as necessary by the Lateran councel in InnoceÌ„t the thirds time about the year of the Lord one thousand 2 hundred and fifteene you here would seeme to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce by two places of scripture co begin withal But your betters haue thought otherwise of this your kinde of confession For your glosse de paenitentiâ Distinct 5. Cap. in principio confesses plainely that it came in rather by some tradition then either by authority of the olde testament or new which tradition he saieth yet ought to binde the West Church to vse it though not the Greekes East Church which haue it not And Beatus Rhenanus in his notes vpon Tertullians booke of repentance forasmuch as hee findeth not therein anie mention hereof not onely gathered that it was not in vse then but also hee sheweth that he thought it came in after grew of the mislike of the inconueniences of the continuance of publicke confessions made in the publicke assembly in the hearing of al the congregation vsed seuerally in the former times And Soto coÌ„tra BreÌ„tiuÌ„ reckoneth vp both your other two points following of praying to Saints and for the dead this also amongst the things grouÌ„ded but vpon the vnwriten word or tradition You had therefore delt both more wisely and more simply honestly if of these and such other great Rabbins of your side you had learned to fetch the ground of this your confession from any where els rather then from the scriptures But seeing you will seeme to haue found that ground for it there which they could not let vs a little consider how fâ—ly now the places you quote serue your turne You meane I am sure both by your words and quotations that Christs doing and saying to his Apostles set downe by Matthew John in the places you quote in these words to thee speaking namely in the first place to Peter I wil giue the keies of the kingdoÌ„e of heaueÌ„ whatsoeuer thou shalt binde in earth shal be bound in heauen whatsoeuer thou loosest in earth shal be loosed in heaueÌ„ And in the other he breathed vpoÌ„ theÌ„ and saied receiue yee the holy Ghost whose sins yee remit they are remitted whose sins yee retaine they are retained Wherby indeed it is euident that our Sauiour first promised to Peter in the name of al the rest after gaue to al his faithful Apostles first the gift of the holy Ghost and then power and authority to vse the â—eies of the kingdome of heauen to binde and loose and to remit retaine sinnes which power and authority they most faithfully and effectually vsed whiles faithfully they preached saluation to the peniteÌ„t beleeuer and denouÌ„ced damnation to the impenitent vnbeleeuers with all duety as they saw cause vsing the censures of the Church of admonition rebuking suspending and excommunicating though they were neuer acquainted with your auricular confession And likewise the same power is exercised by the Lords faithfull ministers in his church still not by the helpe of your
whose repentance and receauing againe into Gods Church and so to a liuelie hope of the forgiuenesse of his sinnes wee reade but that either Paul or anie other minister had him before them to bring him to this by auricular confession wee neither reade nor can beleeue and therefore Cyril is rather quite against you then any thing for you in this point in that place Now last of all is Hierom vpon the tenth of Ecclesiastes where all that he saieth is this if the Serpent the Deuill priuilie bite anie and infect him none being priuy thereunto with the poison of sinne if he that is strucken holde his peace and repent not nor will confesse his wounde to his brother or master the master that hath a tōgue to cure him easily cannot profitte him who of vs denie this that hee that will neither speake and repent nor thus by confession seeke for better physicke at the hands of the spirituall physitian then he cā giue himselfe cannot easily be profited by such a physitian Yea that more is we say and holde that hee that will neither repent betwixt God and himselfe nor yet seeke to those to shew his estate that are appointed to teach him how to repent is in a most fearefull case But yet againe we say that they that in such secret sinnes whereof Hierom plainely speaketh will with Dauid acknowledge their sinne vnto God and not hyde their iniquitie Psalm 32. but forsake it they shall haue mercie Prouerb 28. though they neuer bewraie those their sinnes to anie Priest or minister Neither hath Hierom nor any other of these fathers in any of these places saied any thing to the contrarie What are you therefore the nearer for anie thing that they haue saied to proue the necessity of vniuersall and speciall enumeration of all sinnes that can bee remembred with all the circumstances thereof in the eare of a Priest though otherwise neuer so well confessed to God and repented of Yea what haue any of them spoken in any of these places either to proue the necessity or vniuersality of your kinde of confession which are the thinges you should haue proued by them or else you proue nothing in question or to the purpose For let confession of sinnes vnto them be free as it was in their times and in such cases as mē cannot otherwise so well get ease remedy and comfort against their sins we are very well contented with them to perswade men that it is a very good and profitable way for them in sicknesse and in health to confesse vnto some discreete minister or ministers what sinnes they be that so trouble them that so aduise by them may be ministred vnto them accordingly And this is the vtmost that any of these places can haue so much as any shew to helpe you vnto which is as farre from yours as chalke is from cheese you hauing made it as you haue a matter of absolute necessity and hauing stretched it to such a full speciall recitall of all and that by all persons and sexes at an appointed time of the yeare as you haue also But enough of this matter now therefore let vs go on and see whither you haue anie better holde in the fathers for the other two pointes behinde The next is praying to Saints in paradise to helpe vs with their prayers For the which you alleadge onelie the names of foure Origen Chrysostome Augustine and Hierom of which there is not one indeede that in any of his vndoubted known works to be his that so much as mentioneth praying vnto them For whereas you here haue quoted vs three places of Origen for this your purpose the two later I cannot thinke were his As for the last out of his 8. booke of Ecclesiast there are no such bookes fathered vpon him either in any of his Tomes that I euer yet could see nor yet attributed vnto him by Tritenhemius who reckoneth vp al that he was acquainted withall of his And as for that you alleadge out of his second booke of Iob I graunt whosoeuer was authour of those tractes hee concludeth the second tract with a grosse popish prayer to Iob. But certaine it is those tracts or bookes were neuer Origens nor that prayer of his making or liking My reasons are these first the authour thereof sheweth himselfe an Arrian in the first tract Erasmus hath obserued that these of Iob were neuer but in latin whereas he wrote all his in Greek and lastly because he himselfe if that praier were his should be contrary to himselfe For against Celsus lib. 8. which bookes are his vndoubtedly he answering the arguments of Celsus that it cannot offend the high God if the inferiour Gods whom Celsus called daemones being his frends be worshipped with inuocation to prouoke them to sollicite mens causes with the high God which argument that heathen wretch there coūtenāceth with the fashiō in Princes Courts to sollicite the Prince by such as are about him euen for all the world as you vse to doe your praying to Saints telleth him that one God is to bee praied vnto in the name of Christ Iesus And as for the Saints and Angels saieth he though they be Gods frends yet onely God is to be pleased and please him and then also yee please these pag. 760. and 774. Now in the other place which is the first you cite nāely out of his 3. Homily vpon the Cāticles al that he saith sauouring any whit for this your purpose is this that hee saieth it is not inconuenient to say they pray for vs wherof likewise cap. 13. vpon Iosua and vpon the Epistle to the Romans he speaketh doubtfully and stammeringly as one not fully resolued that it was so and therefore confidently to be aduouched and taught which I thinke was the sowing of some seede towards this opinion of yours But who is so simple but he may see that though this were granted to be an vndoubted and certaine thing that they pray for vs yet thereupon it followeth not that we here must or may pray vnto them And that Origen himselfe neuer gathered so thereupon it may appeare sufficiently by his foresaied answer to Celsus But howsoeuer it is knowen well enough that Origen was not thought of the ancient fathers thēselues an authour of the credit that whatsoeuer he taught or thought ought streight to be receaued as true and sound For it appeares plainely in Epiphanius Tom. 2. haeresi 64. and in his epistle to Iohn of Hierusalē that his opinion of him was that he was not sound in doctrine and Hierom ad Oceanum saieth flatly of him thus I haue praysed Origen as an interpreter but not as a teacher his witte not faith and further he saieth of him Beleeue mee that haue experience his doctrines are poysoned disagreeing from the scriptures offring violence vnto them And Eusebius out of Aegesippus lib. 3. cap. 32. noteth that vnto those times about which he began to florish the Church remained
this life to proue both the popish purgatory and praier for the dead let vs but take a vew first in what sence they haue spoken thereof how vncertainely and inconstantly And to begin with Origen both because hee was the ancienter because hee was first named in the very second place here quoted by Albin he speaketh of purging in the fire of hel and in the other of purging in such fire as will consume in them that hold the foundation their wood hay stubble that they built thereupon that so when their soules depart from their bodies they maie go to heauen which with those vnconsumed they cannot which consuming fire he saieth is God For his words in the latter place are these He that despiseth the purifications of the word of God and doctrine of the gospel reserueth himselfe to sorowful paineful purifications that the fire of hel in torments may purge him whō neither the Apostles doctrine nor word of the gospell hath purged And in the other preaching I am sure they wil graunt to men aliue and not to the dead his words the better to make thē to looke whiles they were aliue that they caried no wood hay nor stubble with thē vnconsumed be these if after Christ the foūdatiō thou buildest thereupō not gold siluer pretious stones only in the minde if thou hast any such but also hay wood stubble what wouldest thou be done with thee when thy soule shal be seperated frō the body Whither wilt thou with thy wood hay stubble enter in to the holy places and so defile the kingdome of God Or for thē tary without for the other leese thy reward which is not meet neither What followeth then but the first for these fire bee giuen thee to cōsume thē But God is the cōsuming fire of these whereupō a litle after he exhorts al mē that haue any such matter in them that they would know their owne faults in time amend them The first place is in his 8. booke and 11. chapter vpon the Romans and the other in 12. homily vpon Hieremie euen as Albine cyteth him Now who seeth not by this that the purging place that he speakes of in the second place is hell it selfe and that the other is in this life whiles Gods childrē warned in time whiles they are here doe let the fire of Gods spirite both reueale vnto them and consume in them all their vnsuteable building to the foūdation whither it be in religion or maners what places then were these vnles the papistes bee growen now to be of opinion that the partition wall betwixt hell and their purgatory is quite pulled downe and al become verie hell or else that their purgatorie is in this life to alleadge either for purgatory or praiers for the deade Further touching Origens fansies about purging after this life August de ciuitate Dei l. 21. c. 17. saith that the very diuell his angels after certaine grieuous and long lasting punishments shal be freed and deliuered from those torments and ioyned againe in society with the holy Angels as Origen beleeued And vpon Luke hom 14. Origen himselfe saieth I think after the resurrection from the dead we al shal stand neede of a sacrament to clēse and purge vs for none can arise againe without his defilings And vpō the 36. Ps hom 3. he writeth that he thought that it was needful that all should come into the purging fire though hee were Paul or Peter and of the same mind he seemeth to be vpō the Num. hom 25. which if you vnderstād of any purging fire of tribulatiō or of the inward effectuall operatiō of the fier of Gods spirit to lightē to purge consume our darke sinfull and erronious harts for so sometime hee and others of the ancient writers speake then these places make nothing for your purgatory which is after this life if otherwise you vnderstand him of some fire to purge after this life so neither is he anie procter for your purgatory to the which you sende onely the middle sort neither very good nor very bad A man therefore may wel think that you are neere driuen for proofes for your purgatorie or prayer for the dead when you run to these or anie such places in Origen that speaketh thereof so variablie and not onelie farre from your sence but sometimes euen in your owne iudgement aswel as in ours very heretically Now as for Augustine if what he hath writen of purgatory be well considered your arguments from him will proue as weake as from Origen For whereas some of you alleadge him vpon the 103. Psal serm 3. for purgatory it is plaine that he there speaketh of that purging by fire which he supposed would be in the end of the world whē all should be on fire and the good separated from the bad which fancy he rather chused to fall into then to holde with Origen that there is any purging in hell The same Augustine most commonly vnderstandeth that place of S. Paul 1. Cor. 3. of the fire of tribulalation and affliction wkereby men are tried and purged as he proueth out of the scripture in this life as golde in the fornace And as for a meane place of purging any betwixt death the iudgement he writeth sometimes confidently that there is none such and sometimes he leaueth it in doubt For in his fifth booke Hypognost against the Pelagians he acknowledgeth heauen to bee the place for the godly and hel-fire for the wicked but a third place saieth he we are altogither ignorant of neither doe we finde any in the holy scriptures In like sort de verbis Apostoli ser 14. he acknowledgeth these two againe but a middle place hee vtterlie denieth because there is no mention thereof in the gospell I know it is answered that when he saieth thus hee setteth himselfe against the Pelagians third place which they assigned for infants dying vnbaptised But then yet I reply and say if hee had beene resolued of the popish third place purgatorie hee would and should haue saied there was no fourth place and not no third if to this it bee reioyned as I know it is by some that he disputed not there whither there were any more places then two before the last iudgement but whither there were any more then two euerlasting receptacles after that iudgement also to continue and that in that sence onely he was resolute there was but two how then will they shift that of his de ciuitate Dei lib. 13. cap. 8. where deuiding all that die into good and bad immediately vpon their death he saieth that the soules of the Godly separated from their bodies are in rest and the soules of the other are in paines whiles the bodies of those rise againe to euerlasting life and the others to euerlasting paine which is the second death For here they cannot deny he speaketh of the time state of soules before the
true word of god since the Apostles time there hath bene h I would meÌ„ would could read theÌ„ as you wish for theÌ„ I am sure they shuld find theÌ„ to be far more with vs theÌ„ with you neuer a Christian doctour in the Church for they haue all taught the contrary to your forged gospell as euery man may see that will take the paine but to looke in their workes or to read those places that are quoted by me and diuers others that haue confuted your heresies many a hundred years agone by their authorities Let them then that haue any eies beholde the hazard that yee runne into and so many others throughout the world which followe your opinion i EueÌ„ thus do you with vs If one should come to accuse an other of falsehoode and that before hee bee assured of this matter wherewith hee did seeke to atteinte the defendaunt would not one thinke his matter verie great or his knowledge verie small to run headlong into the danger of that crime which if he could not proue he should be condemned for himselfe What then shall become of you O most simple sheepe which seeke with fained arguments to condemne not one or two k These are but words feare theÌ„ not but seeing the man had nothing else he thought good belike to haue enough of them and those swelling enough but all the Christians and Catholiques that haue beene in this world since the passion of Christ the which haue refused and reproued your doctrine as hereticall haue taught vs this that we hold at this day But now to answere vnto that that was mentioned a little before that which a nuÌ„ber of your flocke haue told me when I haue conferred with theÌ„ which is that l We doe not hold that ignoraâ—ce wil excuse any that dye out of the true faith of Christ and therefore it is likely you tell but a tale the errour of our predecessours was not imputed vnto theÌ„ forasmuch as these good simple people went to worke after the grossest sort thinking to doe well and that as then they did not vnderstand well the trueth which is now brought to light through your gospell I say that in this yee are deceaued more then halfe the valewe of your Religion m You would seeme then belike that your simâ—le and ignoraÌ„t papistâ— haue all beene great and profound claâ— kes for before some of them died they had forgotten more theÌ„ euer you haue learned for all that that you knowe you haue learned it of their bookes or stollen it to saie the trueth interpreting both their workes the scriptures contrary to the trueth of their meaning And although it were so that they had al erred your coloured excuse of simplicity could auaile them nothing for the word of God would accuse them If n I am glad to heare you cite this testimony to pâ—oue that ignorance of the gospell shall not excuse any but why plead you then sometime that ignorance is the mother of deuotion the Gospel saith * 2. Corinth 4. S. Paul had bene hidden it hath beene hiddeÌ„ to those that haue perished the spirits of the which the God of this world hath blinded theÌ„ if that those vnto whom the trueth hath beene hidden haue perished wherefore doeth your excuse serue theÌ„ This being true as it is most like I meane that they haue not erred nor that you onely shal be saued they all condemned To my iudgement our auncestours with al their simplicitie did neuer erre so much as your disciples doe to follow such masters o This brag hath beene vsed so often without proofe that now it is stole and lothsome as condemne that faith that the Catholique church hath taught mainteined these 1500. yeares to mainteine those heresies that haue bene buried in hell many an hundred year agone now are called vp againe by Martin Luther Caluin his fellowes The XXXVIII Chapter THe vanity of the brag wherwith you begin againe this Chapter by that which I haue saied in answering of the former hath appeared I hope sufficieÌ„tly already but whensoeuer it shall please you or any for you to thinke that it will not bee tedious for the Reader to bring vs forth this number of Doctours confessours martyrs that you here boast of and to make it appeare indeede by their owne words or other good euidence that they were liuing dying so on your side as you here pretend I doubt not but one of vs or other will easily make it euident vnto the world that you are far greater in words and shew then you are in deedes and trueth You would haue your reader beleeue that onely to auoide tediousnes to him you haue forborne by their testimonies liuing and dying here to confirme all the rest of your doctrine and all that you doe vse at this day but alas your owne conscience telleth you that indeed not onely the tediousnes of it to your selfe but the impossibility of it altogither drew you to be glad to vse this prety shift piece of cuÌ„ning to salue your credit your causes with him CoÌ„sidering therfore what already hath beene answered to the fathers quoted by you in the former Chapter in whose euidence for those matters belike you durst be boldest what otherwise vpon sundry other occasions in answering of your booke I haue set downe out of theÌ„ directly to proue the contrary to this that you say you could proue out of theÌ„ your question with vpon the supposall of your brag here to be but a trueth you haue inferred put forth whither these doctours confessours martyrs that you talke of be in heauen or hel is childish friuolous needles For you know well enough that there is neuer a doctour confessour or Martyr of any credit and worthie so to be accounted for the Catholique Religion they taught and dyed in but though in some of them we doe not deny there might be found some inclinations towards some things now held by you that yet we holde that forasmuch as not onely they held with vs the foundation and other principall points of Christian Religion wherein you are contrary both vnto them vs but that also the Lord in his mercy towards them kept theÌ„ in the rest froÌ„ the grossenes impiety that you are therein fallen into since that they were and are ours and not yours And therefore we comfortably assure our selues that they holding the foundation and other principall points as they did though they as men builded thereupon some wood hay stubble yet the Lord souÌ„d the meanes by the fire of his spirit and affliction so to descrie the same vnto them to coÌ„sume al that vnsutable building in them ere they went hence that we neede not thorow any such scrupulositie of conscience as you imagine feare to giue our iudgement or opinion of them For wee feare not their being in hell for
wee onely are saued or they al condemned For I haue shewed how a nuÌ„ber yea infinite numbers of them might be saued this notwithstanding As for your iudgement that they neuer erred so much as our disciples it is not material For you are no competent iudge in this matter And the reason of your iudgement that we condemne the faith that the Catholique Church hath held this 1500. yeares and maintaine the olde rotten condemned heresies is a thing which by begging after this sort at our hands though therein you be neuer so impudent and shamelesse a begger as that way in this your book your greatest skill hath appeared you shall neuer get And therefore set your hearts at rest your words though they be neuer so lowde stout shall neuer make vs yeelde you this for an almes You must therefore proue your words true and so make vnto vs euident demonstration thereof which you shall neuer be able to doe before we may yeeld vnto you that you haue any right at all to this The XXXIX Chapter IF that by a good and a right title your disciples cal themselues the children of God this maketh me beleeue that the saying of our Sauiour is fulfilled in them the which is * Luc. 16. The childreÌ„ of this world are wiser in their generation then the children of light To proue this true wee see this dailie experience for a wise worldly man when he doeth put out his money to gaine he vvill not trust the promise so soone of one or two or three as hee vvill doe the bondes of a vvhole Towne or Cittie that should warrant or assure his gaine But you nor your disciples haue not done thus but rather the contrarie It had beene better for you to haue first put your faith and trust in God beleeuing that he hath giuen his holie spirit and declared the meaning as touching the Scriptures vnto the Catholique Church a We build not our faith religion or hope of saluatioÌ„ of these meÌ„s credits but vpoÌ„ the credit of the vndoubted worde of God set down in the scriptures which is for credit to be preferred before the credit of all men speaking beside or contrary vnto them and not to hazard the hope of your saluation putting it into the hands of Luther Zuinglius Oecolampadius and three or foure other such pelting merchantes vvhich haue newlie set vp shoppes at Wittemberge Geneua Losane vvhich one of these daies we shal see bankeroutes as their predecessours haue beene before them the vvhich after that they had deceiued the poore simple Catholiques b Beware of dogs Phil. 3. ergo take heed of this Romish barker the best is hee is but one that barketh to bite hurt he hath small or no power and gained some of their soules for the deuill they haue at the last sold al their honestie and credit so that at this daie except that it be those that reade the ancient histories no bodie else doeth remember that euer they liued in the world You are come now last of all to make vp their merchandise but your credit can hardlie be good before God c Will you neuer haue done with this bare vaine brag Shew this but once to bee true and then we yeelde and then brag and spare not for you shall haue against you all the ancient Catholicke Church which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day all the Doctours of all the vniuersities all the Empires Kingdomes and priuate state thoroughout al the worlde which haue receiued and honoured this doctrine that you call Papisticall And if you saie that you will not trust meÌ„ but the verie word of the Lord we agree to the like that we ought al to beleeue the Scripture but we varie about the interpretation for you interpret it after one sort and we after another you expound it after a new sort and the Catholicke Church doeth follovv d When it commeth to the trial it will be found that our interpretation rather then yours hath continuance froÌ„ all the sound ancient Doctours and the vndoubted Apostolicall â—raditions the olde exposition of the ancient Doctours traditions which you haue forsaken or to saie the trueth your Ministers haue led the sheepe astraie froÌ„ the old flocke at the departing froÌ„ the which they haue beene al scattered abroad some following Luther some Caluin some the Anabaptists so forth for the which the Popes kings others that haue had the gouernment of the Church shall answere at the last daie of iudgement for as much as while e Ergo you haue had sleepy Popes they slept you haue come sowedweeds among the good corne Then seeing you are the sheepe that rome astraie what excuse can they make before God that wilfully follow your steps We confesse that we are the poore sheepe of God that haue continued with our old flocke stedfast whole as touching our religion but very weake and sickely f Amend them for shame as touching our maners that is to say g But your wounds sores sicknes is grown so desperat that you will account none such but them that wil tel you you are sound and in health where you are most sicke full of sins vices attending some sage phisitions to heale vs good pastors to keepe vs casting out the chaffe froÌ„ the corne I meane cutting off those abuses that are offensiue not to such scrupulous consciences as you haue but vnto him that doeth threaten theÌ„ for the carelesse liues of their sheepe so to continue in that h Proue this once some of you or else for shame neuer say it almost in euery leafe for lack of matter as you doe ancient faith that by succession of pastours we haue receiued from the Apostles The XXXIX Chapter In this Chapter there is nothing but your old great words stout begging the maine questioÌ„ that your Church is the true ancient Catholicke Church that al the ChristiaÌ„s great small since Christ haue bene flat on your side that you are the only men that follow the sound sence of the scriptures deliuered vnto you by the ancient doctors and true pastors of the Church that we are but two or three in coÌ„parison of you sprung vp yesterday such as you prophesie wil shortly grow banckerout both of credit and honesty This bladder ful of nothing but winde is sufficiently I hope prickt and let out already by that which I haue saied in sundry places before Howsoeuer I hope the reader is not so simple as that seeing in you neuer so great store of these swelling wordes as long as he knoweth your aduersaries denie them as stoutly of the other side and he seeth you bring nothing but bare wordes without proofe he wil any whit be mooued therewith And yet as not able a discourse as this booke of yours is accounted the greatest stuffing that it hath is onelie
of such vayne wordes as these aboue twenty times I am sure without any proofe at al therein repeated Indeed if in al your life you could proue but halfe so much as confidently here you set downe then you were a notable fellow indeede and then truely we would striue no longer with you But in the meane time seeing we know your speeches are such as you can neuer proue and that we are able against you both to proue the falshoode of yours and the trueth of our owne blame vs not if wee esteeme not your words Yet lest you should saie that these likewise are but words in vs as the former haue beene in you though I see no reason to the contrary but that our words containing a iust and true denial of yours were sufficient confutation thereof I say and will proue it that you shew your selfe a man past al shame in writing here as you doe that all the ancient Catholicke Church which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day al the doctours of all the vniuersities all the Empires kingdomes priuate states throughout al the world are against vs for they haue al receiued honoured that doctrine that we count papisticall For first such is the newnes thereof as I haue plentifully shewed in diuers places already of this booke that none of all these for sundry 100. yeares were once euer acquainted therwith yea that diuers of your assertions which are the very principallest of your opinions as namely your dotcrine of Transubstantiation of your Popes being in authority aboue generall Councels and of denying the cuppe to the lay people are not yet of 400. yeares age and continuance And it is notoriously knowen that in the daies of Gregory the 9 about the yeare of Christ 1230 by occasion of iniury and oppression offered by the Pope to that Church that the Greeke Easterne Churches departed quite from the Church of Rome and neuer since though it hath beene oft attempted could be brought to hold communion therewith againe insomuch that in your conuenticle at Trent you haue condemned them for schismatical and heretical Churches And these Churches as it is noted in an ancient record in the Church of Herford differ from yours at the least in 29 articles And they holde yours excommunicate and an Apostata Church vnto this day And vnlesse your reading be very small you cannot be ignorant that Math Paris writeth that the Patriarch of Constantinople at the Councell of Lyons shortly after this breach shewed that of 30. bishoprickes in Greece the Pope had not three that then held communion with him and that all Antioch and the Empire of Romania to the gates of Constantinople was gone quite from him There is also extant in print in ancient record an Epistle writen about seuen yeares after this breach began in the yeare 1237 by one Germanus Patriarch of Constantinople vnto the Pope wherein not only he laboureth to make him see that the occasion therof was that he tooke more vpon him ouer those Churches then he should but amongst other argumēts to persuade him to see his folly he sheweth him that not onely the Greeke Churches themselues but that al so the Aethiopians Syrians Hiberians Alani Gothi Charari with innumerable people of Russia and the mighty kingdome of the Vulgarians held communion with his Church of Constantinople and so by occasion of this schisme had forsakē felowship with the Roman Church And the Cosmographers write that the iurisdiction of the Patriarch of Canstantinople reacheth so farre that all Greece Misia Belgaria Thrasia Walachia Moldauia Russia Muscouia the iles of the Aegaean sea and Asia the lesse bee vnder the same It is also reported by authours of good credit that at this day vnder the other Patriarchs of Antioch Alexandria Hierusalem and vnder the other in the dominions of Presbyter Iohn in Africa there be infinit numbers of Churches and Christians differing from yours and ioining with ours in manie thinges So that Churches also both in the East North and South and that of very great amplitude within the time that you speake of haue professed Christ and yet haue neuer beene acquainted with most or many at the least of the pointes for the which your religion is counted of vs Papisticall in all which there haue beene some doctours vniuersities Empires Princes and priuate men no doubt since Christ before you wrote that neither honoured nor receiued your papistical religiō Yea but that merueilously you ouershot your selfe you might haue remembred that within the time limited by you in these Westerne partes there haue beene euen vnder your Popes nose and in his greatest ruffe many doctours vniuersities and some Emperours kings and priuate estates that haue neither receiued nor so honoured your religiō which we cal papistical as here you would beare your reader in hand For euen in these parts and within the compasse of these times haue bene you know Wickliffe Hus and Luther vniuersities kingdomes good store haue had both your religion Church in defiance long before you wrote He that readeth but the stories of Philip Lodovicke the last French kings of Henry the 4 5. of the 2. Fredericks the 1 2 Emperours and the Cronicles of king Iohn here in England and of 2 or 3 of his successours he shal easily perceiue that much within the compasse of time that you speake of both Empires and Kingdomes with their Emperours and Kings haue beene far from making that reckoning of your popish Church and religion that you here bragge of or else doubtlesse you must needs confesse that your Popes haue beene vnreasonable creatures that haue so cursed and banned these men as they haue and which besides haue caused such infinite Christian bloud to be by warre shed to hamper them These things considered euen children may see not onely the vanity but grosse falshood of these your wordes For howsoeuer either here or else where in this your booke you would cause your reader to beleeue that your Romish Church is the catholicke Church of Christ euery one indeed may see that in trueth it is but a particuler and a petty Diocesse in comparison of the catholicke Church of Christ For the reader must vnderstand that the Church of Christ is called catholicke first because the religion that shee imbraceth is that which hath beene at al times will be to the end the true religiō of God secondly because the same Church in respect of the mēbers therof especially since the calling of the Gentiles is not to be limited or shut vp within the compasse of any particuler countries but may vniuersally be dispersed amongst all nations and in al countreyes where it pleaseth the Lord. In neither of which sences can the Romish Church be truly accounted catholick For neither is her doctrine that which the true Church of Christ embraced was in possessiō of for 4000 years more neither are the
meanes to preach the lawe of God And I tell you truely that I cannot maruaile yet sufficientlie that anie man of anie reason iudgement and learning as you would seeme to bee should be so farre past all shame as confidently to set downe in print that wee cannot deny but that Luther 1517. began first our Church and Religion that we can name none 100. or 200. yeares before that taught it when you cannot be ignorant vnlesse your ignorance be verie grosse that we name vnto you verie manie and that in all ages to haue beene of the same Religion and Church that wee are now of For first there is nothing more vsuall with vs then to tell you that all the ancient Patriarches Prophets Euangelists and Apostles witnesse the canonicall Scriptures liued and died in our Church and Religion The same opinion wee tell you wee haue of all the Christian martyrs whose number is infinite that were slaine in the first 300. yeares after Christ vnder the 10. bloudy persecutions that were in that time For during that time our Religion was onelie professed and embraced in the Church and verie little or nothing was there of those opinions for the which especiallie wee account your Religion Antichristian vnlesse it were of heretiques and such as had learned it of them in those daies once thought of And after for three hundreth yeares more at least in all the most substantiall pointes of Christian Religion and the greatest questions betwixt vs and you all the ancient doctours and the Christians that liued in their times as wee haue diuerse times sayed so haue wee often so proued it that you shall neuer bee able therein to disproue vs were fully ours And though after these times when Boniface the third had once obteined of that traiterous murderer Phocas the Antichristian title of Oecumenicall or vniuersall Bishop the mysterie of iniquity did euery day work more plainelie then other hasted to his height yet as I haue shewed in my answere to your publishers preface and in the sixteenth Chapter of this my answere to your selfe where you bragge againe as you doe here of 1500. yeares antiquity and continuance there were after these times from time to time that both spied the growth and proceeding thereof and set themselues against it For Bertram Iohannes Scotus were with vs against your grosse real presēce aboue 700. years ago Trithemius maketh mētion of a booke writen 400. yeares ago which is supposed was writen by one Arnulphus for as Sabellicus and Platina testifie much about that time was hee put to death of the Romish cleargie in which booke the authour grieuously complaineth of the enormities amongst the saied Cleargie and findeth many faultes in the Romish Church Gisburne also in his storie writeth that in the yeare 1158. Dulcinus Nauarensis and Gerrhardus preached earnestly that the Pope was Antichrist and that they had thirtie followers whom they brought into England who were persecuted then here for preaching that and other such like doctrine against the Romish Church Much about this time but somewhat rather before a company of Christians who by your Prelates were nickenamed Albigenses did florish and there were great multitudes of them euen about Tholossa whereof you Master Albine are called Archdeacō who did vehemently resist your Pope and his proceedings setting vp vnto themselues a Bishop whom they called Bartholomew oppugning the grosse pointes of your Religion euen as wee doe witnesse Nicolas Triuet and others in their Stories Hildegarde though shee were a Nunne yet in the yeare 1146. prophesied the ruine of your kingdome at Rome and bitterly inueighed against the wickednesse of your Cleargie and Friers So did Geffery Chaucer about the same time namely in his Dialogue called Iacke Vpland very saltly taunt and deride the vanity of your frierly superstition In the yeare 1164. was Petrus Valdus a citizen of Lions whose followers after had giuen them diuerse names to disgrace them withall For your frendes call them Waldenses Albigenses pauperes de Lugduno Picardos Boslauienses Thaboritas and Leonistas changing their titles and names according to the diuersities of places and times they liued in howsoeuer their Religion was all one And these haue beene of ancient time and of great continuance in very many places namely in Prouince Sarmatia Lyuonia Bohemia Morauia Polonia Silesia Belgia and in Calabria and of you wheresoeuer or whensoeuer they were they haue beene cruelly persecuted for heretiques and yet if their opinions bee iudged of not as you the more to disgrace them haue charged them but as they in their owne confessions of their faith and Apologies haue set them downe they in many thinges helde the verie same that wee doe and condemned the same for errours in you that wee now doe They are of 400. yeares continuance at least For Aeneas Syluius a man of your owne for he was Pope ere he died writeth handling the stories of Boeme that they had continued vnto his time from the yeare 1160. And Gulielmus Paruus writeth that their doctrine was examined in Oxforde and found sound concerning God and the merites of Christ for your doctrine concerning the iorning of our owne merites with Christes to make vp full satisfaction and redemption is of farre later inuention and their life saieth hee was commendable but in the doctrine of the Sacrament they were found to differ from the Church of Rome Yea Reinerus a writer 300. yeares ago who as he himselfe saith was often at the examination of them in his booke of inquisitions writing of them calling them Leonists confesseth that some saied they had continued from Syluesters time and that some saied they had beene euen from the time of the Apostles he further reports that they had great shew of holy life in liuing iustly before men and that they beleeued all things well of God and all the articles contained in the creede onely he chargeth them that they hated blasphemed the Romish Church And this he further writes that there was no land wherein that sect did not creepe speaking but of thē that were thē but in one cuntrey yet this he testifieth that they had there ten schooles in one parish called Camach that there were forty congregations or Churches of them euery one hauing their leaders or teachers and that their power in his time was such that none as hee saieth durst then openlie resist them There are yet to bee seene as good authours report the consultations and records of the proceedings of foure great Bishops in France against them writen three hundreth yeares ago namely of Narbonensis Arelatensis Aquensis and Albanensis yea 355. yeares ago I read there was a Councell kept in Tholossa especially against them And yet though both of ancient times and later daies the Synagogue of Rome hath sought to roote them out by all possible cruelty they and their successours continue vnto this day in great numbers in Bohemia and in other places But because you very
oft in this your booke and the rest of your side continually beare the simple reader and vnlearned Christian in hand that before Luther there were none of our religion that haue so condemned your Church and religion as we doe I wil vouchsafe for the better inabling of euery one that shall read this my answere to see your vanity and impiety though this which I haue noted already be sufficient to lay open your folly to proceed yet somewhat further in this matter Wherefore to go on in the course of times though your popish Church hath bene in her ruffe and at the heighest that euer she was this latter 400 yeares yet we are able to shew that there haue bene many euen in this time from time to time and that in sundry places that haue ioyned with vs against you that therefore there is no such newnesse or strangenes in our religion a d doings as you would make the ignorant beleeue For in the dayes of Gregory the 9 in the yeare 1230 the Greeke Church and other Easterne Churches did quite forsake communion with yours who euer since ioyne with vs in a number of thinges against you as namely in withstanding the supremacy of your Romish Bishop as appeareth not onely by one Epistle that Germanus Petriarch of Constantinople wrote vnto the pope in the yeare 1237 but also by a large booke writen about the yeare 1384 by Nilus Archbishop of Thessalonica wherein he doeth not onely confute his Supremacy euen as we doe but also he enueigheth against al those that hold communion with the Popish or latin Church And as it appeareth in ancient record in the Church of Herford wherein 29 of the Articles wherein they differ from the Church of Rome are set downe they ioine not only with vs in this point in seperating thēselues frō the Romish Church in denying the popes supremacie which is the very foundation of your Church and religion but also in denying purgatory and masses for the dead in holding it lawfull for their ministers to enioy the benefit of matrimony in not vsing any priuate masse in not denying the cup to any that receaue in not ministring the communion in priuate houses in not vsing extreme vnction and in sundry other points And by diuers Epistles writen from thence of late extant in print both in greeke and latin to Chitreus and other Germans it euidently appeareth that they ioyne with vs against the Romish Church in many other great and weighty points of our religiō and that great hope there is that they might easily be brought to ioyne with vs in the rest Besides these Easterne churches euē here in these westerne parts euident it is that there haue beene many great learned and famous persons with innumerable followers at all tymes from age to age in these latter 400 yeares when the tyranny of your popes to represse them hath bene the greatest and strongest that euer it was which yet haue openly with vs stood forth against them and their religion For Fredericke the second as diuers other Emperours had beene before him as namely Constantine the 5. Leo his sonne and Constantine the 6 in the East and Henry the 4 and 5 in the West was a notable Antagonist of the 3 popes in his time contending against them to maintaine the authority of Christian princes against their vsurped Supremacy ouer them about the yeare 1260 as notoriously the Cronicles of those times writen by your owne men Platina Sabelicus and others declare And 20 years before that Krātzius testifieth in his history that there were many that preached openly in Sueuia that the Pope was an heretique his clergy Symoniakes and generally they all seducers of the people Ten yeares after that florished Arnoldus De nouâ villâ a Spaniard who taught that Sathā had thē seduced the world that the faith thē taught was but such as deuils had meaning belike a bare historicall faith that the pope led men to hell that he and his clergy did falsifie the doctrine of Christ that masses were naught not to be saied for the dead c. and therefore your popish Church condemned him for an heretique Much what about the same time was Gulielmus De Sancto amore a master and chiefe ruler then in Paris who went as farre as Arnoldus applying the same Scriptures which concerne Antichrist as we doe to the pope and his clergy and therefore hee also was condemned for an heretique and his bookes burnt by your popish rout And in the yeare 1260 Laurentius Anglicus a master of Paris also tooke this Williams part against the pope wrote a booke in his defence In the yeare 1290 Petrus Iohānes a Minorite directly preached the pope to be Antichrist and Rome great Babylon and therefore he was burnt after he was dead 30 yeares and more before this Robert Grosthead a famous learned man and Bishop of Lincolne for hee died in the yeare one thousand two hunderd fifty three was a great withstander of the popes tyranny and three dayes before his death hauing conference with his clergy he laboureth to make them see by sundry demonstrations that the pope was Antichrist and his doings Antichristian King Philip of France about the yeare one thousand three hundred was a great withstander of the Supremacy which now the Pope challengeth and a resister in his dominions of sundry of his enormities and William Nagareta and the prelates of France then ioyned with their king against the pope Grosthead this king Philip and his clergy as afterward king Edward the 3. king of England in the yeare 1346 despised the popes curse appealed frō him to God There is in an ancient Chronicle of S. Albons a notable Epistle of one Cassiodorus to the Church of England wherein are layed forth a number of lamentable abuses in the Roman Church in the yeare one thousand three hundred twenty eight In the Extrauagants we reade that Marsillius Patauinus Iohannes de Ganduno Michael Chesenas Petrus de Carborea and Iohannes de Poliaco all great learned men were condemned by the Pope for preaching against his Supremacy and other errours of that Church of his about the yeare 1326. There were thē also many learned mē more that disputed wrote against his Supremacy which took part with Ludouicke the Emperour against him as William Occam Luitpoldus Andreas Landanensis Vlricus Hangenor the Emperors treasurer and others Dante 's liuing in the yeare one thousand three hundred wrote against the Pope the orders of religious men and the Doctours of the Decrees saying that these were three great enemies to the trueth he flatly hath left in writing in his cāticle of Purgatory that the Pope of a pastor was become a woulfe that he was the whoar of Babylon In the yeare 1350. Gregory Ariminensis Andreas de Castro and Burdianus taught as we doe against your doctrine of freewill and merites Taulerus then a preacher in Argentine preached openly against your doctrine
scriptures and all the ancient creedes grounded vpon the same togither with the very forme of our baptisme allowe vs onely to beleeue in God the father God the sonne and God the holy ghost vnanswerably thereupon it must needes followe that it is grosse idolatrie to pray vnto any other And so much in plaine tearmes hath Sedulius aboue one thousand yeares ago most flatly set downe vpon the first of the Romans saying Adorare alium praeter patrem filium spiritum sanctum impietatis crimen est that is to adore any beside the father the sonne the holy ghost is an vngodly wickednes Cyril also ad reginas de rectâ fide c. sendeth them that would obtaine their prayers to God the father in the name onely of Iesus Christ because solus naturâ verè est Deus he onely is by nature and in trueth God contra Iulianum lib. 6. he flatly saieth the holy martyrs neither doe we say to be Gods neue adorare consueuimus neither doe we vse to worship thē Yea Remigius who liued well nigh 900. yeares after Christ sheweth vpon the 96. Psalme that not onely images are not to be adored but he saieth plainely no nor an Angell is to be adored because of that warning of the Angell to the contrary in the Apocalips To conclude euen Hierom himselfe your owne fourth and last man whom I haue therefore kept to the last because many of you thinke that hee is much of your side against Vigilantius writing against the saied Vigilantius to one Ripacius cleareth himselfe to be farre frō this folly and blasphemy that you would make him an earnest procter for For there hee hath to shew his iudgement in this case writen thus non colimus adoramus we worshippe not and adore I say not the reliques of martyrs but neither sun moone Angels Archangels Cherubin Seraphin nor any name that is named either in this world or that which is to come beside the trinity for so he must be vnderstoode For immediately he addeth this reason least wee should serue the creature aboue the creatour who is blessed for euer We honour saieth he the relicks of the saints that we may adore him whose martyrs they be And good reason had all these fathers thus flatly to set downe their mindes against you For you know it is writen Dominum Deum tuum adorabis illi soli seruies that is thou shalt adore the Lorde thy God and him onely shalt thou serue Deut. 6. Matth. 4. and with this text Christ put the Deuill to silence when he would haue perswaded him to fall downe and worshippe him hee had nothing to replie against it I praie GOD you bee not growen in this point more obstinate and peeuish to withstand the doctrine of this text and more cunning and subtle to cauill against it for your owne defence then hee was I know some of you finding the Scriptures and fathers thus directlie to condemne adoration of the Saints though they maintaine still all your practise of praying vnto them yet haue not beene ashamed to write as it appeares in the censure of Colen printed there one thousand fiue hundreth sixty that amongst you it was neuer so much as heard that the Saints are to be adored for adoration is due onely to God Whereas they could not bee ignorant that their legends rosaries and other their bookes of deuotion publique and priuate are full both of the name and thing did they not knowe that the whole psalter is turned to the Virgin Mary and that therein it is writen venite adoremus eam come let vs adore her Howsoeuer they knew this or no they could not forget their olde saying of the Crosse beholde the woode of the Crosse whereon the saluation of the world hanged venite adoremus come let vs adore it If these will not serue to make them better to remember them selues let them reade their owne Antonin part 3. Tit. 12. cap. 8. and they shall finde him in plaine wordes to tell them that the Saints by the Pope by his canonizing of them are set forth vnto men not onely as an example of faith and holy life but also abomnibus adorandi in necessitatibus inuocandi that is of all to be adored and in necessities to be prayed vnto Wherein to say saieth he that the Pope erred were hereticall But this is like your other common shifts when you say you vse the Saints but as Mediatours of intercession and not of saluation which onely belongs to Christ and that you doe not giue them Latreian but Douleian that is as you expound the words not diuine honour but an inferiour honour not asking at their hāds that they should either giue you the good things you would haue or keepe frō you the euil that you would not haue the falshood and vanity whereof I haue both in my answere to the preface of your booke and also somewhat in this Chapter already bewrayed For let any man read ouer consider your praiers and practise and he shall finde that you make them mediatours of saluation and not onely of intercession though that onely if you did it being as it is a special part of the office of Christs mediatorship to be the very altar whereupon and whereby we must acceptably present these our spirituall sacrifices vnto his heauenly father hee being as he is of himselfe alone thorowly both able willing fully to execute his owne office you could not excuse cleare your selues of being guilty of high treason against Christ And he should further finde that you giue the diuinest honour that may bee that you doe directly beg all things euen at their hands that you can beg at Gods For it is vsual with you to sing to Mary salua eos quite glorificāt saue thē that glorify thee that succour the miserable help the weake refresh them that mourne you say to her Mary mother of grace mother of mercy protect vs frō the enemy receiue vs at the hour of death in the psalter now turned put forth by the deuout seruant of hers Bonauenture as some thinke you sticke not to vse all those speeches to her that in the psalmes are vsed to God himselfe and therefore you blush not to say vnto her Haue mercie vpon me O Lady according to thy great mercy according to the multitude of thy mercies blot out my iniquities But not onely thus haue you doubted about Mary but quite contrarie to your owne wordes when you would vse these shifts you deale with other Saints For you praie to Basil that he would looke downe vpon you from aboue change your whole life and you praie Athanasius to direct the holy people S. Cyprian to direct both your speech and life and who so readeth your speculum exemplonim your glasse of examples he shall finde there and in such other bookes of yours such stories tolde of things done by this Saint and that
for such as worshipped them as that thereby it may most clearely appeare that you haue no stay nor moderatiō at all whatsoeuer you say in praying to them Thus then thou maiest see Christian Reader for all M. Albines sending of thee to reade Origen Chrysostome Augustine and Hierom for the maintenance of his praying to the Saints in Paradise that not onely they haue quite forsaken him therein but that also both Scripture they and a number of ancient fathers besides haue condemned that their praying vnto Saints for grosse idolatry The most thou seest that any of the fathers quoted by him for this haue saied that hath any soūd the way is that they thought it was not inconuenient to thinke that the Saints in heauen praied for the Saints aliue yet vpon the earth and that therby they did them some good which as I haue shewed thee by good reasons proueth not that therefore they are to be praied vnto thus of vs. But to conclude this matter euen touching this point I would haue thee to vnderstand that the first brochers hereof they of the ancient fathers that most seemed to bee resolued of it yet spake thereof but stammeringly and doubtfully For thou hast heard Origen onely say that he thought it was not incōuenient to think so and vpon the second Chapter to the Romans moouing that question whether the soules of the Saints departed doe any thing and labour for vs as the Angels doe or no he in conclusion determineth that if they doe that yet it is amongst Gods secretes and that it is a mystery not to be committed to paper And Augustine de curâ agendâ pro mortuis inclines to the negatiue and therefore to that end alleadgeth that Esa 63. Abraham knoweth vs not and Israel hath forgot vs. And though Nazianzene seeme with Origen and Cyprian to think they doe pray for vs and procure vs good yet where he shewes himselfe to be most of that mind as in his oration of Basil and in his epitaph of his father he vttereth it not as a resolute trueth whereof he was sure but aduouching it addeth as I think if I be not deceaued or if it be not too much to say so which argueth that he was not perswaded and resolued that it was a plaine trueth taught in the worde but that onelie it was thought to bee a thing probable and possible and therefore this must needes be a weake ground to build so massy and huge a building vpon as the popish praying to Saints cōmeth to To conclude therefore this point in this case notably hath Augustine saied whē the question is of a thing most obscure the certaine and plaine instructions of the diuine authority not helping vs to decide the matter let mans presumption stay it selfe doing nothing by inclining rather to the one side then another De pec meritis lib. 2. cap. 36. And againe seeing it is euidēt that they haue no ground for it in scripture which some of the best of themselues confesse with Augustine let vs say both of this and that which they would builde thereon of Christ or of his Church or of any thing else which apperteineth to faith or life if we but as Paul saied if an Angell from heauen should preach vnto you beside that which yee haue receiued in the scriptures of the law the gospel let him be accursed contra literas Petil. lib. 3. Cap. 6. And so vpon these premisses boldly let vs conclude and say with him Non sit nobis religio cultus hominū mortuorū de verâ religione cap. 55. let it bee no part of our religion to worship dead men For as he there addeth If they liued godly indeed they are not now in that minde that they would haue such honours giuen them of vs but God they would haue vs worship Now we are come to the last point of your 4 which is praying for the dead for the which you wil vs to read two places in Tertullian one in Cyprian two in Origen one in Chrysostome and three in Augustine which at your request I hauing done though I must needes confesse this your errour in some of these hath more countenance and allowance giuen it then the former had yet I hope by that I haue done with you you shal haue as little cause to brag that all these Doctours teach you your kinde of praying for the dead as any of the former things that you haue alleadged any of them for for some of these your authours in these places you quote doe not so much as mētion praying for the dead at all onely they speake of a certaine purging paine after this life that diuersely some in one sence some in an other But I see in perusing these quotations that your leasure could aford to set downe for this point others that diuers of your side vpon deepe deliberation purpose to handle the matter as seriously as they could haue to this end remēbred that to make a shew of great proofe whē you haue very smal any place that in any sence maketh mention of purging after this life that serueth you woulde make your reader beleeue not only to proue your fained purgatorie but also to proue your praying for the dead and againe any place in what sence soeuer that mētioneth praying for the dead that must needs proue both purgatory your maner of praying to relieue souls there Which because it is the thing whereby both you are abused wherby most fondly yet absurdly in this case you alwaies seeke to abuse your poore simple reader before I proceede any further to examine your quotations I must labour somewhat to acquaint him wt. First therfore let him marke what force there is in this kind of argumēts Origē or some other father speaks of some purging paine after this life ergo of the popish purgatorie Augustine speaketh vnconstantly or very doubtfully of a purging paine or place after this life ergo questionles there is such a third place as the papists imagin such purging there is as they teach And there is such a place ergo they that be there must and can be relieued there by the praiers of the lyuing or in some sort the dead are to be remēbred in our praiers ergo they in that place therby to be releiued For these are the very argumēts which are by the mainteiners of praier for the dead and purgatory cōfusedly iumbled togither out of the fathers Secōdly for the better espying of the weakenes of al these argumēts he must vnderstand how variably vncertainly the fathers haue spokē writē of purging after this life how far frō the popish sēce likewise he must be aduertised how diuers waies remembrance may be made hath beene for the dead by the fathers and yet not in their sence Concerning the first wherof because Origen Augustine are two that Albin hath especially here named by their mentioning of purging after