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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A76258	Certamen religiosum or, a conference between His late Majestie Charles King of England, and Henry late Marquess and Earl of Worcester, concerning religion; at His Majesties being at Raglan Castle, 1646. Wherein the maine differences (now in controversie) between the Papists and the Protestants is no lesse briefly then accuratly discusss'd and bandied. Now published for the worlds satisfaction of His Majesties constant affection to the Protestant religion. By Tho: Baylie Doctor in Divinity and Sub-Deane of Wels.	Bayly, Thomas, d. 1657?; Charles I, King of England, 1600-1649.; Worcester, Henry Somerset, Marquis of, 1577-1646.	1649 (1649)	Wing B1506; Thomason E1355_1; ESTC R209153	85,962	251

thy Covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is water by this pit could not be meant the place of the damned for they have no share in the Covenant neither are they Christs prisoners but the devils neither could this pit be the grave because Christs grave was a new pit where never any was laid before The Fathers affirm as much Saint Hier in 4. ad Ephes Saint Greg. li. 13. Moral ca. 20. Saint Aug. in Psal 3. 7. v. 1. We hold purgatory fire where satisfaction shall be made for sinnes after death you deny it we have Scripture for it 1 Gor 3. 13. 15. The fire shall try every mans work of what sort it is if any mans work shall de burnt he shall suffer losse but he himselfe shall be saved yet so as by fire Saint Aug so interprets this place upon the 37. Psalme also Saint Amb upon 1 Cor 3. and Ser 20. in Ps 118. Saint Hier lib. 2. chap 13. ad vers Joan Saint Greg li 4. dialog ca 39. Orig. hom 6. in ca 15. Exod. Lastly We hold extream Vnction to be a Sacrament you neither hold it be a Sacrament neither doe you practise it as a duty we have Scripture for it James 5. 13. Is any sick among you let him call the Elders of the Church and let them pray over him annointing him with oyle in the name of the Lord and the prayer of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up and if he have committed sins they shall be forgiven him Neither any nor all the Sacraments were or could be more effectual mens good nor more substantiall in matter nor more exquisite in forme nor more punctuall in designation of its ministry other Sacraments being bounded within the limits of the souls only good this extends it self to the good both of soul and body he shall recover from his sicknesse and his sins shall be forgiven him and yet it is both left out in your practise and acknowledgment The Fathers are on our side Orig Hom 2. in Levit S. Chrys lib 3. de Sacerd S. Aug in speculo Ser 215. de temp Vener Bed in 6. Marke and S. James and many others Thus most Sacred SIR we have no reason to wave the Scriptures umpirage so that you will hear it speake in the mother language and not produce it as a witnesse on your side when the producers tell us nothing but their owne meaning in a language unknown to all the former ages and then tell us that shee saith so and they will have it so because he that hath a Bible and a sword shall carry away the meaning from him that hath a Bible and ne're a sword nor is it more blasphemy to say that the Scripture is the Churches off-spring because it is the word of God then it is for me to say I am the sonne of such a man because God made me instrumentally I am so and so was shee for as saith S. Aug Evangelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesiae authoritas commoveret I should not believe the Gospel it self unlesse I were moved by the authority of the Church There was a Church before there was a Scripture take which Testament you please We grant you that the Scripture is the Originall of all light yet we see light before we see the Sun and we know there was a light when there was no Sun the one is but the body of the other We grant you the Scriptures to be the Celestiall globe but we must not grant you that every one knowes how to use it or that it is necessary or possible they should We grant that the Scripture is a light to our feet and a lanthorne to our paths then you must grant me that it is requisite that we have a guide or else we may lose our way in the light as well as in the darke We grant you that it is the food of our souls yet there must be some body that must divide or break the bread We grant you that it is the only antidote against the infection of the Devil yet it is not every ones profession to be a compounder of the ingredients We grant Your Majesty the Scripture to be the only sword and buckler to defend a Church from her Ghostly enemies yet I hope you will not have the glorious company of the Apostles and the goodly fellow ship of the Prophets to exclude the noble Army of Martyrs and the holy Church which through all the world doth acknowledge Christ wherefore having shewen Your Majesty how much the Scriptures are ours I shall now consider Your opinions apart from us and see how they are Yours and who sides with You in Your opinion besides Your selfe and first I shall crave the boldnesse to begin with the Protestants of the Church of England The Church of England WHose Religion as it is in opposition to ours consists altogether in denying for what she affirmes we affirme the same as the Real presence the infallibility visibility universality and unity of the Courch confession and remission of sins free-will and possibility of keeping the Commandments c. all these things you deny and you may as well deny the blessed Trinity for we have no such word in Scripture only inference then that which ye have already denied and for which we have plaine Scripture Fathers Councels practise of the Church Whereas matters of so weighty concernment as delivering of mens souls into the Devils hands should not be executed but upon mature deliberation and immergent occasions and not by any but those who have the undoubted authority lest otherwise you make the authority it self to be doubted of that which ye hold positive in your discipline is more erroneous then that which is negative in our Doctrine as your maintaining a woman to be Head Supreame or Moderatrix in the Church who by the Apostles rule is not to speak in the Church or that a Lay-man may be so what Scripture or Fathers or custome have ye for this or that a Lay-man as your Lay-Chancellours should Excommunicate and deliver up soules to Sathan a strange Religion whose Ministers are deny'd the power of remitting sins whilst Lay-men are admitted to the power of retaining them and that upon every ordinary occasion as non-payment of fees and the like Whereas such practises as these have rendred the rod of Aaron no more formidable then a reed shaken with the wind so that you have brought it to this that whilst such men as these were permitted to excommunicate for a three-peny matter the people made not a three-peny matter of their Evcommunication The Church of Saxony NOw for the Church of Saxony you shall find Luther a man not only obtruding new Doctrine upon his Disciples without Scripture or contrary to Scripture but also Doctrine denying Scripture to be Scripture and vilipending those books of Scripture which were received into the Canon and acknowledged to be

about the Scripture all Consent and Credit the Fathers adhere to the Councels submit to the holy Sea of Rome And the Divisions that are are but humane dissentions as is confessed by Luther i Tom. 7. fol. 380. Beza k Beza Epist 1. Whitaker l Whit. de Eccles Cont. Bell. Cont. 2. q. 5. p. 327. Fulk m Fulk ag Hesk. Sand. c. c. pag. 293. c Thus Religion being at Vnity with it self is the true Speculum Creatoris or looking glass of the Creatour wherein the full proportion of a Deity may be seen but once broken into pieces it may represent divers faces but no true proportion and loseth at once both its value and its virtue I have thus presented Your Majestie with a view of the Catholick Religion asserted by the Fathers and the Protestant Religion asserted by their founders I shall humbly desire Your Majesties further patience that Your Majestie will be pleased to consider the lives and Conversations of the one and of the other First the rare Sanctity and admired holinesse which all ages and writers have ascribed unto these holy Fathers And the strange and unheard of blasphemies vilenesse and wickednesse that are cast upon the other not by any of their Adversaries but by themselves upon one another If these testimonies had been by any of our side I could not have expected credit but being by Protestants themselves I cannot see how it should be denied Luther confesseth saith the learned Protestant Hospinian that he was taught by the devil that the Masse was naught and overcome with the devils reasons he abolisht it a Hist Sacr. part ult fol. 131. The same confessed by himselfe b Tom. 7. Witt. fol. 228. Lingeniously confesse saith Luther that I cannot henceforth place Zwinglius in the number of Christians c Tom. 2. Germ. fol. 190. and further he affirms that he had lost whole Christ d In fol. 182. after the manner of all Zwinglius saith Schlusselburg Hereticks was stricken with the spirit of giddinesse and blindnesse deriving it from the etemologie of his name in dutch von dem Schwindel e lin 2. act 1. Gualterus cals Zwinglius the autor of war the disturber of peace proud and cruel and instances in his strange attempt against the Tygurnis his fellows whom he forced by want and famine to follow his doctrine and that he dyed in armor and in the warre f In apolog pro Zwing 1. tom fol 30 31. and Osiander Epist Cent 16. p 203. And Luther saith he dyed like a thiefe because he would compell others to his error g Luther collog lat tom 2. ca de Advers And he saith further that he denyed Christ and is damn'd h Luth col lat tom 1. c. de dam inferno He tels us also that the devil or the devils dam used to appear to Carolo 's and taught him the exposition of this is my body i Tom 3. Jen Germ fol. 68. so Chemnitius de caena p. 214. As also that he possessed him corporally and that he was possessed with more devils then one k Luth loc com class 5. c. 15. p 47. Neither would he have any man wonder that he cals him devil for he saith he hath nothing to do with him but has only relation to him by whom he is obsest who speaks by him l Luth tom 3. Jen fol 61. The last apparition of the devil to him which was three daies before his death is recorded by Albert. m Cont. Carlost fol 6. See Jo Schutz li 50. caus c. 50. If you look into Bezas Epigrams printed at Paris An. 1548. you will find pritty passages concerning his boy Andebers and his wench Candida and the businesse debated at large concerning which sinne is to be preferr'd and his chusing the boy at last Sclusselberg said that Peter Martyr was a heretick and dyed so n Theol Calv li 2. act 1. Nicolaius Selneverus said that Oecolampadius in his doctrine built upon the sand o Seln part c. Ennarrat ger in Psa fol 215. And Saith Luther Emser and Oecolampadius and such like were hiddenly slain by those horrible blowes and shakings of the devill p Luth tom 7. fol 30. Simlerus saith that Brentius Miricus and Andrew Musculus in their writings did nothing else but make way for the devil q Siml in vita Bulling fol 55. Luther saith Calvin was infected with many vices I would he had bin more carefull in correcting his vices r Calv alledged by Schlusselb theol cal lib 2. fol 126. God for the sin of pride wherewith Luther exalted himselfe took away his true spirit Å¿ Cont Rheg l Germ cont Jo Hess de coena domini We have found saith Oecalompadius in the faith and confession of Luthers 12. Articles whereof some are more vain then is fitting some less faithfull and over-guilefully expounded others again are false and reprobate but some there are which plainly dissent from the word of God and the Articles of Christian faith t Oecol resp ad Luth confess See Zuenckfeld praef super prae cept fidei artic Ho spin hist Sacra part 2. fol 5. Thou O Luther saith Zwinglius corruptest and adulterest the Scripture imitating therein the Marcionists and the Arians u Zwing tom 2. fol 412. In translating and expounding of Scripture Luthers erros are many and manifest w Bucer dial Cont Melanct Zwinglius tels us that Luther affirms some times this and some times that of one and the same thing and that he is never at one with himself taxing him with inconstancy and lightnesse in the word of God a Zwing tom 2. fol. 458. That he cares not what he saith though he be found contradicting the Oracles of God b Zwing tom 2. resp ad confes Luth As sure as God is God so sure and devilish a lyer is Luther c Jo Camp colloq lat Luth tom 2. c. de adv f. 354 Luthers writings contain nothing but railing and reproaches insomuch that it maketh the Protestant Religion suspected and hated d Tigur confesseth Orthod fol 122 123. He cals an anointed King Hen. 8. of England a furious dolt indued with an impudent and whorish face without a vein of princely bloud in his whole body a lying Sophist a damnable rotten worm a basilisk the progeny of an Adder scurrilouslyer covered with title of a King a clown a block-head foolish wicked and impudent Henry and saies that he lies like a scurrilous knave and thou liest in thy throat foolish and sacrilegious King e Luth tom 2. fol 333 334 335. 338. 340. Nor did he less rail at other Princes as at the Duke of Brunswick in his Book called Wider hans worst written purposely against him as also against the Bishop of Mentz one of the Princes Electors f Tom 3. Germ fol 533. 339. 360. And against the Princes of Germany g

Tom 2. Germ fol 190. 200. No marvail that he saith that he had eaten a peck or two of Salt with the Devil and that he knew the Devil very well and that the Devil knew him again h Luth conc de turb sedant No marvail that he confessed of himselfe that the Devil sometimes passed through his brains i Tom 3. Ien Germ fol 485. No marvail that he said the Devil did more frequently sleep with him and cling to him closer then his catharine k Luth Colloq mens Germ fol 281. No marvail that he said that the Devil walked with him in his bed-chamber and that he had one or two wonderfull Devils by whom he was diligently and carefully served and they no small Devils but great ones yea Doctors of divinity amongst the Devils l Luth. 16. fol 275. No marvell that his fellow Prot. could wonder how marvelously he bewrayed himselfe with his Devils and that he could use such filthy words so replenished with all the Devils in Hell m Tigur tract 3 cont supra Luth confessio No marvell that they said that never any man writ more filthily more uncivilly more lewdly and beyond all bounds of Christian modesty then did Luther n Tigur theol Orthod confess fol 10. No marvell that he is so taxed for his obsceanity in his Henzius Anglicus against King Hen. the eight for his beastlinesse in his Hans worst against the Jewes for his filthy mentioning of Hogs for his stincking repetition of turds and dunghils in his Schemhamphorise But if you will hear of his master piece you must read the Booke which he writ against the Pope where he asks him out of what mouth O Pope dost thou speak is it out of that from whence thy farts do burst If it come thence keep it to thy self if it comes from that wherein thou powrest thy Corifca wine let the Dog fill that with his excrements good Asse doe not kick kick not my little Pope O my dear Asse doe not so fie how this little Pope hath bewrayed himself o Luth cont pontif Rom adiab fund in tom 8. Jen p 207 208. Is this the way to win to his side or to gaine souls to Christ or to reform Churches or to confute heresies It is observed that Saint Paul in his Epistles repeated the sacred name of Jesus 500 times and it is the observation of the learned Tygurin Divines that so many times Luther hath used the name of Devil in his Bookes and it is no marvail that they burst out into this admiration How wonderfull is Luther here with his Devils what impure words he useth with how many Devils doth he burst p Theol Tigur confess Germ fol 3. part 3 fol 114 Nor marvail that Zwinglius saith to him we fill not our Books with somany Devils nor doe we bring so many armies of Devils against thee q Zwing tom 2 fol 381 If you can expect to gather figges from thorns or grapes from thistles then ye may expect words from a sanctified spirit to proceed from such a mouth else not What should I say more Melancthon tels us that Carolostadius was a barbarous fellow without wit without learning without common sense in whom was no sign of the holy Ghost but manifest tokens of impiety r Melanct Epist ad freder micon Hosp hist Sac. Lastly Hutterus Beza's own fellow Protestant thus saies of him and casts this dirt in his face which is so shamelesse a testimony that you must give me leave to throw a latine vail over it viz. Beza in fine libri de absentia corporis Christi in coena scribit Candidae sive Amascae suae culum imo partem diversam magis adhuc pudendam mundiora esse quam illorum ora qui simpliciter verbis Christi inherentes credant se praesens Christi Corpus in coena sacra ore suo accipere Å¿ Hut exblic lib concord art 7. p. 703. And another Beza by his most filthy manners was a disgrace to honest Discipline who in sacrilegious verse published to the world his detestable loves his unlawfull carnall acts whoredoms and fowl adulteries not content that himself only should like a hog wallow in the durt of wicked lusts but he must also polute the ears of studious youth with his filth t Tilm. Heshus Ver. Sanc. Conf. I could inlarge my Paper to a volume of like instances in others but these are the prime reformers of the Protestant Churches and how the people edified under their Doctrine these Narratives from their own mouthes shall tell you When we were seduc'd by the Pope saith Luther every man did willingly follow good works and now every man neither saith nor knoweth any thing but how to get all to himself by exactions pillage theft lying usury u Luth. Dom. 26. post Trin. See Mr. Stubs motive to good works p. 44. 45. Certainly to speak the truth there is many times found Conscionabler and plainer dealing amongst most Papists then among many Protestants And if we look narrowly to the ages past we shall find more godlines devotion and zeal though blind more love one toward another more fidelity and faithfulness every way in them then is now to be found in us a Mr. Stubs motive pag. 43. If any man be desirous to see a great rabble of knaves of persons turbulent deceitfull Coseners Usurers let him go to any Citie where the Gospel is purely preached and he shall find them there by multitudes For it is more manifest then the day light that there were never among the Ethnicks Turks or infidels more unbridled and unruly persons with whom all virtue and honesty is quite extinct then are amongst the Professours of the Gospel b Andr. Muscul Domin 1. Adv. See him also li. de Prophet Sim. Paulus in Serm. Dom. 13. post Trinit The children of them of the reformed Gospel grow every day worse more untractable and dare commit such crimes as men of former times were never subject to c Jo Wygand l de bon mal Germ If you cast your eyes upon Protestant Doctours you shall find that some of them moved through vain glory envious zeal and a prejudicate opinion disorder the true Doctrine disperse and earnestly defend the false some of them without cause stir up contentions and with inconsiderate spight defend them many wrest their doctaines every way of purpose to please their Princes and the people by whose grace and favour they are maintained they overthrow with their wicked life all that they had formerly built with their true doctrine d Paul Eber praefat comm Philippi in Epist ad Cor How could the people be better when their Ministers were so bad like lips like lettice I will conclude all with the learned Protestant Zanchius and then you will neither wonder at one or other I have read saith he the Latine copy of the Apology and