other sleights besides these that you haue already mencioned The Germaine The 9. semblance YEs b Sleidan in Câ—m 5. there was one Thomas Muncer a Preacher who as Sleidan and other Germaine-writers reporte did greately labour both by his conferences in priuate by his Sermons in publike to draw the common people from their liking of the present estate The Englishman It hath likewise beene the practise of our factious preachers in their verball Sermons to speake against the statâ— ecclesiasticall the book of common prayer the rites ceremonies of the Church of England For the proofe heereof I referre you to the very confession of their owne lippes On Tuesday saith c Anno 1586. one of their owne side T. C. kept Maister Fens Lecture the Text Psalme 122 4. Vnto the end taking thornes as Tâ—emelius doth and vrging the discipline the want whereof he affirmed to be the cause that some friendes for sooke our Church And as this is the practise of some of our factious Ministers in England so is it also the practise of the same faction in Scotland Yea d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Page 38. 39. they snapper out grosselye with the truth of their intentions informing the people that all Kinges and Princes are naturally enemies to the libertye of the Church and can neuer patientlye beare the yoake of Christ with such sound Doctrine fed they their flockes The Germaine The 10. SeÌ„blance THe Anabaptists did not content themselues therewithal but to the end they might doe yâ— more harme they published factious Bookes to the view of the world as may bee gathered by this speech of Maister Zuinglius to the Magistrates in his time a Zuinglius de Baptism Si hoc cuiuis hominum impune facere licebit vt quae priuato suae rationis consilio adinuenit in vulgus spergat inconsulta imo resistente etiam vniuersatotius ecclesiae authoritate breui plus errorum quam fidelium Christianorum in ecclesia erit cernere If it bee lawfull for euery man to publish abroad among the people those thinges which he hath deuised of his owne head before he hath consulted with the Church nay against the authoritie of the whole Church in short time we shall see more errours in the Church then there be faithful men and Christians And in an other place Si hoc permittamus vt capitosus quisque male-feriatus homo c. If we suffer euery headie braineles fellow so soone as he hath conceiued any new thing in his minde to publish it abroad gather disciples and make a new sect in short time we shall haue so many sects factions that Christ which scarse with a great paine and labour is brought to vnitie in euery church should be deuided againe into many parts The Englishman Neyther did our Puritanes therewithall content themselues but that their poyson might ranckle the farther to the disturbance perrill both of the Church common-wealth they haue published a great number of Bookes which are as fit for the fire as the Bookes of curious Artes Act. 19. Yea and they haue also exhorted the common-people to peruse these their sedicious Pamphlets I pray you say they b In a Booke of theirs entituled the state of the church of England c. Page 10. when you come to London see if you can get these bookes The Ecclesiastical Discipline A learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernment The Counterpoyson A Seâ—mon on the 12. to the Romans and Maâ—ster Cartwights last reply some of which bookes haue been extant this dozen yeares and yet are not them answered and you shall there finde that the gouernment of the Church is contrary to the word of God But not to speake onely of their Bookes in gâ—nerall lâ—t vs take a view of the Contents thereof in particular The Germaine Our Sectaries did stuffe their bookes with inuectiues and out-cries both against the Magistracie and the Ministerie TO begin with the Magistracie they taught as Maister The 11. seÌ„blance a Bulling aduers Anabap. Fol. 19. Bullinger also recordeth that the Ciâ—il Magistrate hath no authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters and that hee ought not to meddle in causes of Religion and Faith The Englishman Our Sectaries come not farre behinde them heerein as appeareth by these their speeâ—hes b T. C. lib. 1. Page 192 for the making of orders and ceremonies in the Church saith T. C. they doe where there is a constituted ordered Church pertaine vnto the Ministers of the church and to the Ecclesiasticall gouernours and that as they meddle not with the making of ciuill Lawes and Lawes for the common-wealth so the ciuill Magistrate hath not to ordaine ceremonies partaining to the Church c T. C lib 2 Page 1â—5 And againe No ciuil Magistrates in councels or assemblies for Church-matters can eyther be chiefe moderator ouer-ruler Iudge or dâ—tâ—rminer d Admon 2 No ciuil Magistrate say the admonitors hath such authoritie as that without his consent it should not be lawfull for ecclesiasticall persons to make any church-order or ceremonie e Admon 1 And againe To these three ioyntlie that is the Ministers Seniors and Dâ—acons is the whole regiment of the Church to be committed By this you may see that our Sectaries doe shake hands both with the Anabaptists the Papists But albeit these three contrary factions haue vnited ioyned themselues together and doe al ioyntly oppugne the Princes authoritie in causes â—cclesiasticall yet the authoritie of the sacred Scriptures the judgement of the auncient Fathâ—rs the decisions of auncient Counsels and the practiâ—e of Christian Princes in the pâ—imatiue Church are able to seuer and dis-ioyne all their forces To beginne with the Scriptures they giue sufficient warrant to ciuill Gouernours to ordaine Lawes in Ecclesiastical causes and doe expressely teach that a 2. Reg 12 4 2 Chro. 19. 4. Ibidâ—m 30 1 34. 3. Iehosaphat Hezekias and Iosias did make Lawes for the recalling excercising of the Seruice of God As for the Fathers they holde it to bee an Oracle for truth that b Aug. Epi. 48 Kinges doe serue Christ in making lawes for Christ Yea c Aug. Epi. 50 Rex aliter seruit Domino saith Saint Augustine quia homo est aliter quia etiam Rex est Quia homo est ei seruit viuendo fideliter quia vero Rex est seruit leges iust a praecipientes contraria prohibentes conuenienti vigore sanciendo A King serueth the Lord one way as he is a man and an other way as he is a King As hee is a man he serueth him by liuing faithfully As he is a King he serueth him by making lawes with conuenient vigor to coÌ„maunde that which is right and forbid the contary But not to insist onely vpon Saint Augustins iudgement The d Vide Sozomen lib. 1. cap 17. Bishops that came to the counsell of Nice gaue to the Emperour
catabapt but they endeauoured to the vtmost of their power to commit the quite contrary that so they might crosse the Magistrate The Englishman That which you say was the custome of your Anabaptists hath beene the custome of Heretickes and Scismatickes in all ages The Eunomian Heretickes in dishonor of the blessed Trinitie brought in the laying on of water in baptisme but once to crosse the custom of the church which did it thrice other Heretickes which held the Tâ—initie to bee three distinct not Persons but natures abused the cereremonie of three times laying on of water to the strengthning of their Heresie and to the crossing of the custome of the Church in their times The selfe same thing hath beene practised by our Scismatickes for some of them haue sent their Seruants to the Plough and Cart vpon the verye fâ—ast of the Natiuitie of Christ to crosse the custome of our Church which keepeth it holy Others as the reuerend Fathers in Oxford were credibly informed did b Oxfords answere to the Petiâ—ion spend the fift of August last in fasting to crosse that authoritie which coÌ„maunded them to celebrate it with ioy and thankefulnes for his Maiesties moste strange and wonderfull deliuerance from the conspiraâ—ie of the Earle of Gowrie c King vpon Iâ—nas â—ect 36. And I heard of a nation of mâ—n saith Doctor King when their King had intended a feast for the honour of his country they on the contrary side proclaimed a Fast as if God had sent them an Embassador of the last iudgement And I know a societie of men who in the time of Lent were wont to eate Flesh-meate seauen daies in the weeke though out of Lent but fiue daies I thinke they did it for no other end but onely to crosse the authoritie of that power which inioyneth vs to abstaine from Flesh-meate at that season of the yeare Thus doe they behaue themselues much like them vnto whome it was said by Christ in the behalfe of all painefull Apostles and Ministers Wee haue piped to you and ye haue not daunced wee haue mourned to you ye haue not wept To conclude they will euer be in an extreame for when we Feast they will Fast when wee Fast they will Feast But tell mee Sir did they not also speake euill of them that were in authoritie The Germaine The 16. seÌ„blance YEs they did as Zuinglius reporteth speake euill of the a Zuinglius in â—lencho contra Anabap. ciuill Magistrate if at any time heere prooued theÌ„ then they straight way said that therefore hee was an enemie vnto them because they did tell him of his faults The Englishman Your Anabaptists come far short of our Sectaries in this point for many of them haue reposed a great part of their Christian profession zeale in the reproaching and odious traducing of them that are in authoritie h Exhortat to England Page 92. They haue exhorted the common people to repute those Princes that liue not vnder the Yoake of the pretended holy Discipline for Gods enemies c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Page 39. They haue informed them That all Kinges and Princes are naturally enemies to the liberties of the Church Yea they made complaint to his Highnesse that our late Soueraigne made their yoake greeuous that she had laide vpon them an heauie burden of humaine rites and ceremonies They haue depraued and slaundered not onely the CommunioÌ„ Booke but the whole estate of the Church as it was reformed by her Maiestie Yea in her Highnes life time the state of this Church of England was so depraued beyond the Seas by these our disciplinairians as that it hath beene conceiued by Godly men in forraigne Countries that we haue a Gualther episcopâ— Eliens Anno. 1574. No lawes no good orders no discipline but that euery maÌ„ may doe what he list But I pray you tel me were not your Anabaptists punished for these their vile attempts The Germaine The 17. seÌ„blance YEs but they greatly complaâ—ned that b Bulling aduers Anabapt Fol. 11. nothing was vsed but violence The Englishman So haue our Sectaâ—ies also complained to the Kinges Maiesty that c Petition exhibited to the Kings Maiesty they haue beene suspended silenced disgraced and imprisoned for mens traditions The Germaine Well let vs leaue this their impugning of the Magistracie come to their oppugning of the Ministerie And let vs beginne with the Vniuersities because they are the ordinarie meanes to maintaine the Ministerie The Englishman With the Vniuersities why I hope they did not oppose themselues against the fountaines and Wel-springs of good learning The Germaine The 18. seÌ„blance YEs d The Author of the Suruey cap. 26. your owne writers can teâ—l you that they wrote very scornefully against the Vniuersitie degrees The Englishman And to tell you the truth so did our Sectaries too e These words I found in a Manu-script of theirs Doctors in Theologie say they is vnlawfull It is mans ordinance without tâ—â—â—ord of God it cannot be taken without an idle oath it is offenciue to the Church of God it is a matter of distinction of the mindes of the Ministers it is one of the swelling titles forbiddin to Ministers it is a Relique of Rome as are Priestes Deacons Archbishoppes it is in regard of the forme thereof a manifest abuse of Gods ordinance of his Ministers after an apish manner giuing authoritie of preaching it is an idle name to bee called Doctors except they haue Schollers and doe teach them c. But what neede I produce their Manu-scripts It is a See their addition to the first part of the Admon and T. C. Lib. 2. page 2â— apparent enough in their Bookes extant that they mislike the degrees of Doctors and Batchelors in Diuinitie The Germaine The 19. seÌ„blance YEa but our Sectaries misliked not onely degrees in the Vniuersitie but in the Ministerie also For the proofe hereof I refer you to the expresse words of b Gerlach in Hyper. Dan. Page 3. Gerlachius a learned maÌ„ of Tubing Liâ—et saith he titulos c. Although thou beholdest with disdaine as it were from aboue the titles orders after the fashion of the Hypocrites Anabaptists yet with a vaine perswasion of knowledge foolish arrogancie whereby thou contemnest our Country-men in respect of thy selfe and doost challenge especiall knowledge to thee and thy fellowes onely Plus turgâ—s quam omnes Doctores et Superintendentes nostri Thou swellest more with pride then all our Doctors and Superintendents And what commeth into thy minde that thou shouldest cauill at the degrees of Ministers as though it were not lawfull to ordaine such degrees for the building gouernment of the Church Did not God himselfe in the olde Testament appoint cheefe Priestes and Leuites and in the New Testament gaue hee not some Apostles some Euangelistes and some Pastors and Doctors You see heere that the Anabaptists
Canonicall Scriptures be vsed in the Church and so haue you 10 The a Confes art 30 Brownists woulde not haue Homilies to be read in the Church no more would you 11 The b See their 2. petition particul 9 Brownists dislike our prescript forme of prayer and so do c Admon 1 pag. 17. you 12 The d In the preface to the Confession pag. 10. Brownists beare the world in hand that our Seruice Booke is verbatim gathered out of the Masse-booke so do you that it is e Admon 1 pag. 16. culled and picked out of that popish dunghill the Portuise and Masse-booke 13 The new-fangle f In the preface of the Confession pag. 10. Brownists blame is for keepieg the olde fashion of Psalmes Chapters Epistles Gospells Versicles Responds Te Deum Benedictus Magnificat Nunc dimittis Our Father Lord haue mercie vpon vs The Lord be with you O Lord open thou my lips Glorie be to God on high Lift vp your heartes O come let vs reioyce Glory be to the father Quicunque vult c. and the selfe same doe you 14 The g Ibidem Brownists dislike our Letany and Collects so doe you 15 The h Confess art 30. Brownists dislike our Prayers ouer the dead at buriall so doe you 16 The Brownister woulde not haue Preachers to preach at burialls No more would you as appeareth by your Booke of i Capâ—de Concion bus ad Ecelesiam habendis Discipline wherein are these expresse words Infuneribus desuescendum est commodè ab habendis concionibus quod periculum sit us super stitionem quorundam foueant aut vanitati inseruiant The Preachers must leaue off by little and little as they may conueniently to preach at burialis lest thereby they nourish the superstition of some men or giue ouer themselues to the preseruation of vanity Yea the k Admâ—nit pag. 200 Admonitors were not ashamed to compare funerall Sermons to Trentalls 17 The l In their â—petition to the King particul 11. Brownists craue that the Church be not vrged to keepe any holie-dayes saue onely to sanctifie the Sabbaoth so do you as hath already biâ— shewed 18 The m In their preface of the conf pag. 10 Brownists doe reckon Saints Eeues and Lent for Romish fasts so doe you 19 The n Ibidem Brownists dislike the Ring in marriage so do you 20 The o In their preface of the confes pag. 9. Brownists would not haue women to be churched no more would you 21 The p Ibidem Brownists haue slandred our Ministers and blazed abroad that they take vpon them to forgiue men their sins and so haue you as hath bin shewed 22 The q In their conf art 30. Brownists also falsly report that we permitte Midwiues to administer Baptisme so do you 23 The r In the preface of their confes pag. 10 brainsicke Brownists would not haue children to be Baptized in Fonts no more would you bicause Fonts as you say were inuented by Pope Pius 24 The Å¿ Admonit 1. pag. 105. Brownists dislike of Crossing in Baptisme so do you because forsooth t Preface of the conf p. 10 it is a peece of Poperie 25 The u Admonit 1 pag. 105. Brownists dislike that children should haue godfathers and godmothers at their Baptisme so do x Preface of the conf p. 10 you 26 The y Admonit 1 pag. 105. Brownistâ—s woulde not haue Interrogatories to be ministred to Infants no more would z Ibidem you 27 The a Ibid. Preface pag. 10. Brownists blame vs for Ministring the communion to the people kneeling so doe you 28 The b Conf. art 30 Brownists hold Surplices to be Popish corruption so holdye them to be knowne liueries of Antichrist 29 The c In their defencepag vlt. and in their 2. petition particul 14. Brownists would haue nothing to be vsed in these dayes which was not vsed in the dayes of the Apostlés no more would you 30 The a In their preface of confes p. 10. 13 Brownists thinke it vnlawfull for vs to vse any rite or ceremonie in our Church which is vsed in the Church of Rome and so doe you To conclude the Brownists and the Puritanes doe agree together in all things their seperation onely excepted as euen as twoo peeces of cloth that are of the same wooll of the same threed of the same colour and of the same breadth and length The Puritane But to put you in minde of one particular before wee make an end of this our conference why doe you vsually call vs by the name of Puritanes The Protestant Why because you agree with certaine olde Heretickes which were so b Catharoi called in former ages The Puritane Wherein doe we agree with them The Protestant The old Puritanes sought for a Church saith master Caluine c Caluin aduers Anabapt wherein there should want nothing that might he desired euen so do you as appeereth by these words of your chiefest Writer d T. C. Replie pa. 17. sect 4. The Church in the whole and generall gouernment and outward policie of it may be pure and vnspetted Secondly we call you Puritanes not because you are purer than other men are no more than were the Puritanes in antient time but because yon think your selues to be e Mundiores cateris purer than others as the old Puritanes did God almighty giue you grace to become f Matth. 5. 8 pure in hart and g 1. Cor. 1. 12 in simplicitie and godly purenesse to haue your conuersation in the world The second Dialogue Treating of their Perseuerance in Schisme and of their ghostly Idolatrie WEll mette good Neighbour what newes I pray you The Puritane I heare none but that the Bishops haue vniustly depriued many good Ministers of their liuings The Protestant I would not haue any that beareth the name of a loyall subiect to say so Their Lord-ships doe nothing against them but what by their authoritie they may doe and by their charge they should doe The Puritane Why should they depriue them of their liuings The Protestant They should depriue them of their liuings bicause they persist and perseuer in an inueterate and old schisme The Puritane Is perseuerance in schisme such a matter as that it deserueth depriuation The Protestants I would not haue you to thinke it a light matter for a man to persist in an olde schisme The auncient Fathers of the Church that florished in the prime age thereof reputed it to be heresie The Puritane Which of them I pray you doth so repute it The Protestant Saint Austen that was haereticorum malleus The Hammer of Heretickes in his time dooth so repute it For in his second booke against Cresconius he dooth define an heresie on this wise a Aug. contra Cresc Donat. cap 7. Haeresis est schisma inueteratum an Heresie is an inueterate schisme And
THE PICTVRE of a Puritane OR A Relation of the opinions qualities and practises of the Anabaptists in Germanie and of the Puritanes in England VVherein is firmely prooued that the Puritanes doe resemble the Anabaptists in aboue fourescore seuerall thinges By Oliuer Ormerod of Emmanuel Colledge in Cambridge Wherunto is annexed a short treatise entituled Puritano-papismus or a discouerie of Puritan Papisme Newly corrected and enlarged Nulli dubium est vt qui inter se discrepant in ecclesia oppugnatione consentiant iuxta illud quod Herodes et Pilatus inter se discordantes in domini passione amicitia fâ—ederantur Hieron in Isaiam Lib. 3. Cap. 5. LONDON Printed by E. A. for Nathaniel Fosbroke and are to be solde at his Shop at the West end of Paules 1605. To them and to none but them whome the Puritanes haue laden with contumelies slaunders defamations and oppr briâ—us detractions O. O. presenteth this Picture SO greate was the skill of Apelles Pyrgoteles and Lisippus as that Alexander the greate commaunded that none should paint him in colours but Apelles none should graue him in stones but Pyrgoteles none should faigne any part of his princely person but Lisippus So cunning was Zeuxis as that he painted a boy carrying grapes that the birds came and picked on them as if they had beene naturall grapes So skilfull was Praxiteles as that he graued in a Marble stone the jmage of Venus so perfectlye and so liuely in each point that a certaine young man fâ—ll in loue with the jmage and came often in the night when no man knew to kisse and to imbrace the jmage of Venus Yea so cunning were Painters in former ages as that it mooued Saint Crysostome to break out into this speech a Chrysost in Psal â—0 Pictores imitantur arte naturam et colores coloribus permiscentes visibiles corporum depingunt imagines faciunt homines animalia arbores Reges rusticos barbaros pugnas rixas torrentes sanguinum lanceas loricas scuta sedemregalem imperatorem sedentem barbarum subditum gladium acutum fluuios decurrentes campos varijs floribus adornatos omnia quae videntur per artem imitantes mirabilem historiam videntibus praestant All which notwithstanding the painting of a Puritane is so hard and difficult as that the ioynt skill of Apelles Pyrgoteles Praxiteles and of al the cunning Painters in Saint Chrysostoms time will scarse reach this obiect For as Proteus changed himselfe into diuers shapes appeared sometimes like a flame of fire sometimes like a Bull and sometimes like a terrible Serpent so the Puritane changeth himselfe likewise into diuers shapes appeareth sometimes like a Protestant sometimes like a Papist sometimes like an Anabaptist It may therefore seeme strange that I who neuer before handled the Pensill would for my first counterfaite shadowe the Puritane I am I confesse at a losse and know not heerein what to answere onely this I say concerning this my first picture as Phydias said concerning his first protraiture if it be liked Iwill drawe more besides this if loathed none but this But to whom shall tender present this picture may I not to the dead as well as to the liuing are the barres of the graue so vnexorable as that they caÌ„ deny a maÌ„ to continue that affection to the memory of those that are dead in the Lord which he caried to them beiug aliue May I theÌ„ present it to the dead and breathlesse corps of our late Queene of famous memory may I there cry out against the vngratefulnesse of those Ministers who haue neuer ceased since she was gathered to her Fathers vntill this day by their coÌ„ferences in priuate by their Broakers coursers vp and downe by their bookes and Pamphlets in print and by all other meanes that possiblie they could deuise to depraue her proceedings to defame that moste auncient kinde of commendable church-gouernment which through Gods great mercie and Godly lawes of her Highnes was according to his holy word established amongst vs This putteth me in minde of Scipio Affricanus the elder who made the Cittie of Rome a ExangueÌ„ et morituram Val Max Lib. cap. 3. being in a consumption and ready to giue vp the Ghost Lady of Affricke At length being banished into a base Countric-towne his will was that his Tombe should haue this inscription vpon it Ingrata patria ne ossa quidem mea habes vnthankful Countrie thou hast not so much as my bones And doth not the vnthankfulnesse of the Puritan-faction giue mee iust occasion to make applycation heereof How many blessings did the Lord bestow vppon this Church and common-wealth in the halcyon daies of Queene Elizabeth To name onely one particular shee made this Church being in a consumption and readie to giue vp the Ghost Lady of Europe But what is become of their gratitude How quickely haue they exiled her from their thoughts and buried her memorable actes in obliuion Ingrati puritani But to leauc the dead and come to the liuing may I in all humilitie present it to you my Liege Lord and Soueraigne I cannot conceale from your Highnesse how that their chiefest writers haue blazed and diuulged abroade that a T. C. lib. 2. pag. 4â— Christian Soueraignes ought not to bee called heads under Christ of the particular and visible Churches within their Dominions b T. C. lib. 1. page 192. that they ought not to meddle with the making of Lawes orders and ceremonies for the Church c Exhort to England pag. 91 92. that their discipline ought to be set up that all Princes ought to submit themselues under the yoake of it yea and that what Prince King or Emperour shall disanull the same hee is to be reputed Gods enemie and to bee held unworthy to raigne aboue his people But who am I that being not called for should dare to come before so high and mighty a Prince bâ—ing so small a present It was the daunger of Hesters life though shee was a Queene to come before the King vnlesse she were called for For it was their law that d Hester 4 whosoeuer man or woman came into the inner court which was not called should die vnlesse the King held foorth his golden Rodde May I present it to you of his Majesties moste Honorable priuie Counsell vpon whose hands also our late Queene leaned The Puritanes which slaunder her Highnesse cannot but slaunder your Honours whome shee did associate to her selfe in administring her gouernment For shee imiâ—ated a Hester 1. Ahashuerosh the King of the Persians who did nothing in the remooue of Vashti the Queene without the aduise of the seauen Princes which saw the Kinges face and sate first in the Kingdome But who am I that I should dare to interrupt your graue consuâ—tatioÌ„s with so sleight a schedule Right reuerend Fathers of the Church to whome
where those thinges which in their fore-named subscription they expected were discussed and reserued to bee examined by certaine breheren in an other assemblie It was at a priuate b In cantab. Anno. 1599. conuenticle where T. C. with his adherents corrected altered and amended the said booke of discipline It was at a priuate conuenticle where they did as the c B. examined in the Starrâ—-chamber examinate remembred agree amongst themselues that so many as would should subscribe to the said booke of discipline It was the departure from a priuate conuenticle for the which G. craued pardon d G. to F. Touching my departure saith he from that holy assembly I craue pardon It was at a priuate conuenticle where L. was to giue notice e L. to F. T C. saith that at your late being at Wroxall you determined your next meeting should bee at Warwicke at the Quarter Sessions that Tuesday for the humbling of our selues the next following to consult of other matters his request is that you would giue notice thereof to the Bretheren of our conference It was at a priuate f Anno. 1584 conuenticle which nine of this faction craued to be had about certaine matters that were to â—e presented to the Parliament We say they haue as yet no new matters to performe vnto you but as sonne as we haue concluded any thing wee will foorthwith send vnto you the same and others It was at a priuate g See the â—uruey Cap. 4. conuenticle where these questions were propounded to be determined viz 1. Whether there ought to be Doctors in euery Church 2. Whether the Doctors may administer the Sacrament 3. Whether there ought to be women Deacons in euery reformed Church 4. Whether the Presbytery bee not described too generally and very imperfectly 5. Whether suspension may bee prooued to be a censure of the Church 6. Whether the Elders ought not to bee perpetuall as the pastors are 7. Whether men must stand to the sentence of the greatest part of the Consistorie 8. Whether Mariages and Spousals and things concerning them doe belong to the Ministers 9. Whether there should be sureties in baptisme 10. Whether there ought to be no restraining from or noting of such a one as for disobedience to the consistories Admonition is in the way of excommunication It was at a priuate conuenticle where a T. S. one of this cousening crew requested that this doubt might be resolued viz Whether he himselfe being greatly indebted and hauing not sufficient to discharge the same should pay his Godly creditours first or his prophane It was at a priuate b Anno. 1586 conuenticle where P. craued F. to mooue another such like question and his wordes were these Mooue T. C. and the other our reuerend Bretheren to deliuer their iudgements wether all laying out of haire be forbidden to all women especially at their repaire to the publique meetings of the Church It was at a priuate c Anno. 1587. conuenticle where it was questioned Whether it were in any respect tolerable for women that profes ReligioÌ„ the reformation to weare doublets little hats with feathers great gownes after the FreÌ„ch and outlandisâ— fashion great Ruffes haire frisled or set out vpon wyer Yea there was a priuate conuenticle or an assembly of three Ministers appointed out of Essex Cambridgeshire and Norfolk to meete the 8. of May 1582. at Cockefield there to confer of the Communion Booke what might be tollerated and what necessarily to be refused in euerye point of it apparel matter forme daies fastings iniunctions c. But what neede I mention these things that were done in the daies of Queene Elizabeth It is moste apparrently known to al meÌ„ that they haue neuer ceased since his Maiesties most happie entrye into this Realme vntill this day to meete together in priuate houses there to meddle with matters too high for theÌ„ To insist onely in one particular did not H. I. send a letter from Woodstreete in London Iune 30. 1603. therin inclosed the forme to bee subscribed vnto to one in Oxford desiring so many hands therunto as conueniently he could get Now where was this platforme framed which H. I. inclosed in his letter was it not at a Classical Assemblie And was not the voice Iaacobs voice the hands the hands of Esau And thus by their plotting plodding together they being few in number at the first are growne to such a multitude as that one of their owne preachers said openly in a Pulpit he was persawded that there were 10000. of theÌ„ in England that the number of theÌ„ increased daily in euery place of al states degrees For the proofe hereof I refer you to one of their owne a Page 3. 4 Bookes entituled The state of the Church of EnglaÌ„d laide open in a conference between Diotrephes a Bishop Tertullus a Papist Demetrius an Vsurer Pandochus an Inne-keeper and Paul a Preacher of the word of God But what neede I send you to the infectious writings of factious writers who knoweth not that the Puritan-Preachers haue infected all the parts of the Land distracted millions of the vulgar sort from their loue liking of the present state yea these their factious leaders haue so set them on fire as that they are become scalding hot in desire of innouation And although our gracious Soueraigne hath continually laboured since his Maiesties entrie into this Realme vntil this present time by what meanes he possibly could deuise to extinguish and quench their raging heate yet so fierie are many of these factious spirits as that no liquor will quench their furious flames But his Maiestie will I hope keepe them from kindling againe least a greater mischiefe doe â—asâ—e therupon For as a fire thaâ— iâ— kept downe if it breake forâ—h againe doth burne more fierecly so these fiery spirits that haue of late been kept down if they breake foorth againe they wil rage more furiously But not to digresse any suitheâ— shew me I pray you more at large how the Anabaptists did spend the in time at their priuate conuenticles The Germaine The 4. semblance THey spent it not in Gluttony and drunkennes but in fasting in praying and in humâ—ling of themselues a Vide Bulling Fol. 11. 17. And by these their Hypocriticall fastes they seduced many of the vulgar sorte The Englishman Although extraordinary fasts had alwaies their â—manation from publique persons as appereth by these places of Scripture Num. 10. 8. Iud. 20. 2. 26. 1. Reg. 21. 8. 2. Chron. 20. 3. 1. Sam. 7. 6. Ezra 8. 21. Esther 4. 16. Though the keeping of them without the knowledge authorizement of the Magistrate bee a minishing of his authoritie by preuenting his decree and controuling as it were his gouernment though it be a preiudice against him eyther that he dooth not know the conueniencie necessity of extraordinarye humbling of mens soules or that
supreame authoritie in making ecclesiasticall orders committed the hearing and determining of their controuersies to his highnesse Christian Princes also haue euer exercised this their authoritie e Euseb lib. 4. â—e vita constant Constantine called himselfe a Bishoppe out of the Church and hee made lawes as f Euseb lib. 2. de vita Const Eusebius recordeth in thinges pertaining to holinesse towards God to the appointing of meete thinges for the Church of God Thâ—odosius his successor tooke the same course a Sozomen lib 7 12. Hee made moste seuere Lawes against all those that crossed the streame of Christian Religion Yea b Viâ—elib 1. 2 Legum Franciae all Princes and Potentates retained this their prerogatiue vntill the time of Charles the great and Lodouicus after him But by what other meanes did your lawlesse Anabaptists oppugne the Mgistrates authoritie The Germaine OVr Maisterlesse and lawlesse Anabaptists in processe The 12. seÌ„blance of time began to strike at the head of Gouernment in generall would haue framed a bodye of men like the body of Polyphemus without his eye or like the confused Chaos of olde time when height depth light and darkenes were mingled together for they attempted as c HemiÌ„gius et Bullinger aduersus Anaba Gastius de â—rroâ—ibuâ— catabaptist Hemingius Bullinger and Gastius doe recorde a paritie and equalitie of ciuill estates The Englishman The Lord who made two great lights the greater light to rule the day the lesser light to rule the night and who in the beginning established a superioritie in al creatures his will is that there should bee a Maisterie and Domion in euery order of men and that paritie in a Christian Common-wealth should moste carefullye bee shunned as being the Mother of Anarchy and confusion Neuerthelesse our Sectaries also as heereafter shall be shewed haue attempted paritie in the Ministrie and I feare that equalitie of Ministers would pull on equalitye in the other estates I feare I say and that not without cause for the chiefest amongst them saith flatlie in a book extant to the view of the world that d T. C. page 144. sect 1. The gouennment of the Common-wealth must bee framed according to the gouernment of the Church From which wordes I reason thus The gouernment of the Common-wealth must be framed according to the gouernment of the Church but there must be equalitie by T. C. his confession in the Church ergo But to returne to your Anabaptists did they thus seeke to ouerthrow your common-weale and state of gouernment The Germaine YEs and yet they in words protested that they endeuoured The 13. seÌ„blance to take no auâ—horitie froÌ„ the ciuil Magistrate as appeareth by these words of a Zuinglius in Ecclesiast Zuinglius Though they protest and by oath deme that they take any authoritie from Magistrates yet shortly after wee should haue seene it come to passe that they would haue beene disobedient to all lawes of Magistrates if once they had increased to that nuÌ„ber that they might haue trusted to their owne strength The Englishman Our Puritanes will make as solemne protestations as any men can doe by oath denye that which your Anabaptists did but I protest to vse his maiesties words b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 L. 2. page 42. that ye shal neuer finde with any highlaÌ„d or border theeues more lies and vile periuries then with these phanaticke spirits we may well say of them as Zuinglius said of your Anabaptists Though they protest and by oath denie that they take any authoritie from Magistrates yet shortly after should we haue seene it come to passe c. But I maruaile they would attempt to ouerthrow the Magistracie The Germaine IT is not to be maruelled at for they sought as Maister The 14. seÌ„blance Bullinger saith c Bulling aduers Anabapt â—ol 95. to bee free from all Lawes and to doe what they listed Their talke vttereth nothing else saith d Gastius de erroribus Catabapt Gastius but libertie in externall thinges Yea It was their opinion as one of your owne e Hâ—oker of ecclesiastical pollicie writers hath obserued that a Christian mans libertie is lost and the soule of man redeemed by Christ is iniuriously drawne into seruitude vnder the Yoake of humaine power if any lawe be nowâ— imposed besides â—he Gospell of Iesus Christ The Englishman Lawes made without contradiction to positine Lawes in Scriptures and receiued by a wholâ— Church are such as that they which liâ—e within the bosome of that same Church must not thinke it a matter indifferent eyther to yeild or not to yeild obedience For as Maister a Perkins in his treatise of conscience Perkins saiâ—h wholesome Lawes of men made of thinges indifferent so far foorth binde conscience by vertue of the generall commaundement of God which ordaineth the Magistrates authority that whosoeuer shall wittingly and willingly with a disloyall minde eyther breake or omit such Lawes is guiltie of sinne before God Yea the very lawes of men may after a sort be tearmed the law of God The Emperours saith Saint b Aug. Epist 166. lib. â— contra secundum Gandentii epistolam Augustin when they commaund good it is none but Christ who commaundeth by them Notwithstanding all this our Puritanes vpon my knowledge thinke that a Christian mans libertie is to liue as hee list and for this cause some of them haue refused to receiue the Lords supper kneeling c. They will not forsooth haue their soules drawne vnder the yoake of humane power And a thousand of the Clergy did not long since c See their surplicatioÌ„ to the King groane vnder the burden of humane rites and ceremonies Thus you see that our Sectaries thinke it seruitude and an vnsupportable burthen to submitte their neckes and soules to the yoake of humane obedience in thinges indifferent which as our Gracious Soueraigne hath well obserued d See the sum of the conference page 71 smelleth very ranckly of Anabaptisme comparing it vnto the vsage of a Beardlesse Boy one Iohn Blacke who the last conference his Majestye had with the Ministers in Scotland in December 1602. tolde him that he would hold conformity with his Maiesties Ordinances for matters of Doctrine but for matters of ceremonie they were to be left in Christian libertie vnto euery man as he receiued more and more light from the illumination of Gods spirit euen till they goe madde quoth the King with their owne light but I will none of that I will haue one Doctrine and one Discipline one Religion in substance and one in ceremanie But what other thinges haue you obserued in these your peeuish and peruerse Scismatickes The Germaine I Haue obserued that they were of such a peruerse nature The 15. seÌ„blance as that they would not onely take vnto themselues libertie in thinges indifferent and therein omit their duetie a Gastius dâ— erroribus
contemned our Superintendents beheld with disdaine their Titles and Offices The Englishman The Titles and Offices of Arch-bishoppes and Bishops are more auncient and necessarye then the Titles and Offices of Superintendents are for the Apostle Peter did as Clemens hath obserued appoint in a Clemens in CompeÌ„diario Christiana Religion euery Prouince one Arch-bishop whome all other Bishops of the Prouince should obey And wee reade that Dyonisius Areopagita was b Volusus epist ad Nichol. 1. Archbishoppe of Athens and appointed thereunto by Saint Paul that Timothie was c Chrysost in 1. Timoth. 5. Bishoppe of Ephesus that Titus was d Chrysost in 1. Tit. Bishop of Creta that Saint Iohn e Euseb lib. 3 cap. 23. gouerned the Church in Asia after his returne from Pathmos that Iames was f Euseb lib. 2. cap. 23. Bishoppe of Ierusalem that Polycarpe was g Tertul. de Prescript Bishoppe of Smirna that Demetrius was h Euseb lib. 6 cap. 1 Bishoppe of Alexandria that Saint Cyprian was i cyprian lib 4 Epist 8. Bishoppe of Carthage that Saint Gregory was k Euseb lib. 7. cap. 14. Bishop of Pontus that Saint Chrysostome was l Theod. lib. 5. cap. 28. Archbishoppe of Constantinople that Theodoret was m Theod. epist ad Leon. Bishoppe of Cyprus And in Elutherius his time which was Anno Dom. 180. when this Realme was first conuerted to Christianitie there was as Maister Fox n Tom. 1. page 146. acknowledgeth appointed in the same three Archbishoppes and 28. Bishops All which notwithstanding the fauourites of the new fangle-faction would haue instead of Arch-bishoppes an equalitie of Ministers If you wiâ— restore the Church say the Admonitors to his auncient Officers this you must doe instead of an Arch-bishoppe or Lord Bishoppe you must make equalitie of Ministers Yea o T. C. lib 2 page 438. the learnedst of them is not ashamed to write that Archbishops and Bishoppes are new Ministeries neuer ordained by God The Germaine The 20. seÌ„blance A Although p Gerlachius in Hyper. Dan. page 30. the Anabaptists pretended the forenamed equalitie yet they sought Dominion laboured onely to pull the rule from others that the rule might haue boâ—â—e in their owne handes and that they onelye might haue borne the sway The Englishman That our Puritanes doe the like I prooue it by the late Archbishops experience You desire saith a In his deseÌ„ce of the answere to the Admonition page 459. hee this equalitie not because you would not rule for it is manifest that you seeke it moste ambitiously in your manner but because you condemne and disdaine to bee ruled and to bee in subiection Indeede your meaning is as I said before to rule and not to be ruled to doe what you list in your seuerall cures without controlement of Prince Bishoppe or any other And therefore pretending equalitie most disorderly you seek Dominion I speake that I knowe by experience in some of you But let vs see what other speeches they deliuered against your ecclesiasticall Magistrates The 21. seÌ„blance The Germaine VVHat needes so many wordes b Gerlacius in Hyper Dan. Page 30. Gerlachius telleth you that they disdained them scorned them rayled on them The Englishman Yea but they haue not come neere our Puritanes in this point I will acquaint you with some of their speeches which they haue belched out against the Reuerend Fathers of our Church They c See their Booke inituled Hay yee any worke page 14. 15. 20. 21 blush not to say that Archbishoppes and Bishops are superfluous members of the body of Christ that they maime and deforme his body making it by that meanes a Monster that they are vnlawfull false and bastardly gouernours of the Church that they are ordinances of the Deuill that they are in respect of their places enemies of God that they are Petty Popes pettie Antichristes Bishoppes of the Deuill that the lawes that maintaine Archbishops Bishops are no more to be accounted of then the lawes that maintaine stewes that the true church of God ought to haue no more to doe with them their Sinagogues then with the sinagogues of Sathan But not to interrupt your speech any longer what was the câ—use that the Anabaptists railed on your church-gouernors The Germaine The 22. seÌ„-blance SVrely a Bulling advers Anabap. Fol. 19. 95. 242. because they endeuoured to bring them to conformitie by compulsion The Englishman By the orders of our Church and lawes of the Realme there is required of our Ministers a subscriptioÌ„ to his Majestres lawfull authority in causes Ecclesiasticall to the Articles of Religion to the Booke of Common Prayer and to the orders Rites Ceremonies of our Church Now because our Church-gouernours do according to their duetie depriue those of their liuings that refuse to subscribe heerunto The Puritanes doe complaine of rigor and reuile Gods high Priest which Saint b Act. 23. 5. Paul repented hee had ignorantly done though that high Priest was an vsurper I confesse indeede that they haue yeilded to subscribe to c See their petition to the King the Articles of Religion and to the Kings suprmacie but this is not sufficient for it is a thing too manifest with what libelling and rayling the forme of our Seruice of our Ceremonies of our apparell c. hath beene depraued and shamefully slaundered by these factious Sprits They haue blazed and diuulged abroade as shall heereafter be shewed more at large that the Communion Booke was culled and picked out of the Popish dunghill the Masse Booke that it is Papisticall that it were better to conforme our selues in outward thinges to the Turkes then to the Papists It behooueth therfore the reuerend Fathers of our Church to compell them to subscribe not onely to the Articles of Religion and to the Kinges supremacy but to the Communion Booke also and to the Discipline of our Church Neyther ought they to thinke that they are too rigorously dealt withal if that they be compelled vrged to shew their conformitie in all thinges seeing that the same course is taken in all other Churches for the repressing of schisme To insist onely in one particular whosoeuer is made Minister at Geneua he sweareth to keepe a Vide leges Geneuens Fol. 3. all their Ecclesiasticall ordinances Yea we reade b Vide Bezam in vita Caluin that Maister Caluin procured a generall oath to be taken through out the whole Cittie of Geneua for the approbation therof Now why should not our Reuerend Bishops haue as free libertie to doe the like But tell mee did not your Anabaptists require a secret subscription of their followers The Germaine Yes although they would not yeild their conformitie with vs in obseruing the good lawes and ordinances of our Church yet priuatlie as c Sleidan L. 6 Sleidan reporteth they gaue their mutuall faith and oath each to other The Englishman The 23.
am not ignorant how that it was decreed by the auncient Fathers assembled at the Councell of Chalcedon that noe man should bee ordayned Minister of two seuerall Churches in two seuerall places I will giue you theiâ— wordes a Con. chaleed â—an 10. Let no man be ordained Minister of two seuerall Churches in two seuerall Citties but let him remaine in that vnto which he was first called And if for vaine glorie hee shall afterwards goe to a greater Congregation let him immediately be recalled to his first charge in that onely exercise his Ministerie But if one be called to an other charge let him simply giue ouer the former and haue no interest in the same That which I misliked was the Anabaptisticall intent of some of them who to my knowledge set their hands to the said Supplication I am in good hope said one of them that double and triple beneficed men shall now by our meanes be remooued and that others of our fellowe-Ministers he meant his factious fellowes shall succeede them But to leaue this particular did they not seeke to take away their good name as well as their liuinges The Germaine YEs they cried out against our Ministers in Germanie The 28. seÌ„blance and said that they did not themselues those thinges which they taught vnto others The Englishman So doe our factious Ministers likewise beare the world in hand that all Ministers besides themselues b See their Petition to the King doe seeke onely their owne quiet profit and credit in the world But what was the cause I pray you that your Anabaptists did thus reuile back-bite and slaunder your Ministers The Germaine SVâ—ely it was onely because they opposed themselues against them and their factious proceedings And this made Zuinglius being to enter the lists against them to say thus a Zuinglius de Baptism Scio quibus conuitijs et quantis furoribus illorum hic me exponam I knowe to what reproaches and to how great rages of theirs I make my selfe subiect And againe Although they maruelously slaunder vs and dayly with new clamours reuile and backe-bite vs yet will I neuer leaue off the defence of the truth before their contumaey be made knowne to all men The Englishman The selfesame cause mooued our Sectaries also to reuile backe-bire and slaunder our Ministers I will not name the slaunderous reports the vnchristian taunts and contumelies that Martin Mar-prelate the Displayer of men in their colours Doctor Somes Painter and other blacke-mouthed Puritanes haue laden the faithfull Seruants of God with Take a view onely of T. C. his Bookes and you shall finde that hee vttereth almost nothing else but speeches of disdayne and reproach The especiall grace hee had in writing was in bitter inuectiues against a Reuerend man whome hee ought to haue reuereced How often doth he report Master Doctor in one b In his first reply book in contempt eyther of the degree or of the person 370. times is the least And for this very cause doth the said learned c Doctor Whit-gift in his preface to the Reader Doctor compare the Puritanes to your Anabaptists His wordes are these Those that be in the Ecclesiasticall estate and desirous to keepe the peace of the Church I haue to admâ—nish that they be not discouraged from doing their duties because of the slaunderous reports vnchristian taunts contumelies that our vnquiet bretheren lade them with knowing that it hath been the vsuall practice of all Sectaries and especially of the Anabaptists But to proceed to what end did they thus slaunder them The Germaine The 30. seÌ„blance THeir end and porpose in slaundering and reuiling of their bretheren was a Zuinglius in Ecclesiast as Zuinglius testifieth to winne credit vnto them selues and to discredit those that set them selues against them The Englishman At the selfe same marke haue our rayling Sectaries aymed But tell me why did your Sectaries seeke to winne credit vnto them selues The 3. 1. seÌ„blance The Germaine WHy Surely because as b Bulling aduers Anabapt Bullinger recordeth they attributed much vnto themselves and pleased themselues verie well but other men they condemned and therfore their mindes were full of pride and contempt The Englishman Your Anabaptists come not neere our Sectaries in Pride and contempt for euerie young vpstart doth think himselfe to bee farre wiser then the grauest man in the land They did not long c When they conferred about the Petition to the Kinges Maiesty since single themselues from their fellowe labourers in the Countrye and thought them not worthy to be acquainted with their enterprises None forsooth but such as were of their d Pares cumparibus facillime congregantur owne humor were called to their assemblies or rather conueÌ„ticles But what do I mention their contempt of their fellow Parishpriestes They are so full of seditious singularitie and ouer-weening contempt as that they contemne the reuerend Fathers of our Church and grudge that Bishops are allowed to be of the vpper house of Parliament The Authour of the Humble motion wisheth that in e Humble motion Page 52. steed of the Bishops there might be present in the Parliament-house some wise they account Bishops fooles and graue Ministers of especiall giftes and learning sâ—rted out of all the land c. The Germaine The 32. seÌ„blance YEa but out Anabaptists were so arrogant as that they bragged that they would defend their cause not onely with words but with the shedding of their bloud also The Englishman So haue our Sectaries too Certaine of the thinges say a T. C. Reply page 5 sect vlt. they which we stand vpon are such as that if euery haire of our head were a lâ—fe we ought to afford them for the defence of them The Germaine Your Sectaries I see were verie audatious but yet ours did farre surpasse them The Englishman Wherin I pray you The Germaine The 33. seÌ„blance A Great number of ours assembled themselues together and set downe as b Sleidan Lib. 5. Sleidan witnesseth certaine thinges which they required the Princes and Magistrates of the Prouinces of Germanie to reforme Did your Sectaries euer attempt the like The Englishman Yes to the number of more then a thousand of our Ministers all groaning as vnder a common burden of humane rites and ceremonies did not long since humble themselues at his Majesties feet to be eased and releiued in this behalfe and set downe likewise as your Anabaptists did certaine points which they required his Majestie to reforme But to proceed in order did any of your Ministers joyne with your Anabaptists that were before conformable to the orders of your Church The Germaine The 34. seÌ„blance YEs it hapned that one Bernard Rotman who before had preached against them c vide Sleidan Lib. 10. fell away from the truth and began to shew himselfe a fauourer of their opnions which thing gaue so
epist â—6 ad Thâ—baritaâ—oâ— et in lib. de vnitate Ecclesiae Cyprian m Orig. serm 8. in diuers et in psal 38. hâ— 2. Origen n Gregor Niz in oratione aduersus eos qui differunt baptismum Gregorie Nizen o Basil de spiritis sancto cap. 27 Basil p Ambros in l. de iiâ— qui mist eriis iâ—itiaÌ„tur Ambrose q Hierom. in Ezech. â— Ieroni r Rabanus lib 4. de â—â—ctitut clericor cap. 5 Rabanus Å¿ Goulart in Cyprianum Goulart But what do I cite these Fathers t Dyonis Areopag de ecclesiast Hierarch cap. de baptismâ— Dionisius Areopagita who liued in the Apostles time maketh mention of the crosse in Baptisme The Petitioners also committed this fallacie when they tolde his Majestie that u see their Petition to the King the restraint of Mariage is a Popish Cannon for it is a Cannon of an auncient Prouinciall x Synod Laodicen can 52. Synode which was confirmed in the sixt generall Synode held in Trullo But to come to their second Principle they do I say commit the fore-named fallacie in vsing a second false Principle viz when they teach that we may not vse that in our Church which is vsed in the Church of Rome How false this their Principle is I appeale to y Caluin in Exid. cap. 23. vers 24. Caluin z Iunius in Academ Iuius a Peter Martir in an Epistle to Hâ—â—per Peter Martyr b Gualtheâ— to N. and M. Gualther and all other writers of note Yea one of their owne principle writers ouer-throweth this their common Principle These are his expresse words c T. C. in his Epist prâ—fixed before his second Book If amongst the filth of their herisses there may be found any good thing as it were a graine of good corne in a great deale of darnell that we willingly receiue not as theirs but as the Iewes did the holy Arke from the Philistines whereof they were vniust owners For heerin it is true that is said the sheepe must not lay downe her fell because she seeth the Wolfe cloathed with it Yea it may come to passe that the Synagogue of Sathan may haue some one thing at some time with more conuenience then the true and Catholike Church of Christ Such was the ceremonie of powring water once onely vpon the Child in Baptisme vsed with vs and in the most reformed Churches which in some age was vsed by those of the Eunomion heresie Loe heere I haue wounded their Goliah with his owne sword Let vs goe on The Germaine The 38. seÌ„blance THe Anabaptists vsed a third fallacie which a Anst de sophist Elench Lib. 1. cap. 5. Aristotle calleth to para to to me aition os aition tithenai that is the taking of that for the cause of a thing which is not the cause For they reasoned as both b Bulling aduers Anabap. Bullinger c Zuinglius in Ecclesiast Zuinglius doth report on this manner your Ministers cannot teach truely because they haue great liuings The Englishman Our Puritanes haue commited the same fault in sundry places of their writinges as namely when they coÌ„demne Surplesses and other particulars because as they say d Admon pag. 241. sect 2. they worke discord and do hinder the preaching of the Gospell when as the apparell is not the cause therof but it is the sinister affection the contentious minde the peruerse and the rebellious nature of man Againe they vse this fallacie wheÌ„ they say that e Admon pag. 42. sect 2 3. Ministers do now run and ride for benefices and by vnlawfull sute and buying preuent other suters because the congregation hath not authoritie to call Ministers For it is not the fault of the calling but of the man And againe the Booke of ordring of Ministers and Deacons set forth by this Church of England requireth that whosoeuer is to be admitted into the Ministry should be so tryed both for learning and life as Saint Paul requireth 1 Timoth. 3. and Titus 1. Now the f AdmoÌ„ pag. 36. sect 1. Puritanes do ascribe the neglect of this dutie to the rule appointed as if wee should call the Law euill because some Lawyers in their office doe swaâ—â—â— from it T. C. also played the Sophister when hee condemned our prescript forme of seruice or Liturgie g T. C. reply page 104. sect 3. because as he said it maintayneth an vnpreaching an 〈◊〉 and vnlafwul ministerie for it is not the prescript forme of seruice that maintayneth vnleraned Ministers noe more then it is the word of God that engendreth heresies But what other fallacie committed your Anabaptists The Germaine The 39. seÌ„blance THey committed as you may read in our Germaine writers an other faulte in reasoning which Aristotle a â—rist de sophisticis elench lib 1. cap. â— calleth sophisma para to â—pomenon that is when eyther there is an erroneous consequence or els none at all They did licentiously wring or wrest the Scriptures to serue their owne â—utne and quoted many places of Scripture from which they could inferre nothing by necessarie consâ—quence The Englishman It hath been the tricke of Heretickes Schismatikes in all ages to fill the margents of their Bookes full of placâ—s of Scripture that by this meanes they might the more easily deceaue the simple pâ—ople and make them thinke their whole Bookes to be Scripture and nothing els but Scripture whâ—n as in deed they wrung from the Scripture that sâ—nce which the wordes themselues would not beare To insist onely in our owne Schismatikes they neyther care for maior minor nor conclusion so they saye something Take a view of their mâ—rgents you shall see how vainely they haue painted them with shamefull abusing of the Scriptures To prooue that ministring of interrogatories to Infants is a mocking of God and a foolish toy they quote Galat. b Admonition 1. page 192. Sect. 2 6. 7. Be not ye deceiued 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—ocked for whatsoeuer a man soweth 〈◊〉 shall he reape To prooue â—hâ—â— is not in the God-fathers Godmothers â—perforâ—e that which they promise c Ibidem they quote Rom. 7. 15. â—allowe not that which I doe for what I would that I doe not but what I hate that doe I. And verse 18. for I knowe that in mee that is in my flesh dwelleeh no good thing for to will is present with mee but I finde no meanes to performe that which is good And vers 21. I find then by the Lawe that when I would doe good eâ—iâ—â— is present with me To prooue that wee should not receiue the Communion kneeling a Admon â—ag 182. sect 1. they quâ—te Exod. 20. 5. Thou shalt not bowe downe to them nor worshipe them To prooue that Ministers are not â—yed to any forme of Prayer inuented by man b Admon pag. 77. sect 3. they quote 1. Timo. 1. 2. vnto Timothy my naturall
idolatrous persons in the Popes Church This also made them to holde that Baptisme ministred by lay-men or by women was not effectuall The Englishman Our Sectaries holde that the Baptisme of women is d T. C. page 113. no more the holy Sacrament of Baptisme then any other daily or ordinary washing of the Childe that those which haue beene baptized by women ought to be rebaptized against whose folly to vse M. Caluins wordes we shall Ibidem sufficiently be defended if we thinke that we were baptized not in the name of any man but in the name of the Father of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost Let not this my speech cause you to thinke that women are permitted with vs to baptize as some slaunderous Puritanes haue informed some reuerend men beyond the Seas nor that I goe about to prooue that women may lawfully baptize For God forbid that I should teach them to vsurpe an office whereunto they be not called Onely I withstand this errour viz that baptisme ministered by no women is no more the holy Sacrament of Baptisme then daily or ordinarie washing for I hold that although to vse S. Augustines wordes a August lib. 2. contra epist Parmen c. 13. it be vsurped without necessitie and is giuen of any man to any man yet that which is giuen cannot be saide not to be giuen albeit it may rightly be said not to be rightly giuen The 52. SeÌ„blance The Germaine OVr Anabaptists by vrging these things before named brought as b Bucer in his censure vpon the com Book Bucer truely reporteth Baptisme into contempt The Englishman Our Puritanes by their teaching that Ministers are de ipsa baptismi essentia of the being of baptisme by their auouching that the word of God must of necessitie be preached before the Administration of Baptisme and by their denying the necessitie of Baptisme haue made men thinke that the externall signes of this Sacrament is but a bare ceremony and in no sense necessarie to saluation Thus doth their Doctrine tend to the derogation of this holy Sacrament Therefore I may say of these our factious Teachers as c Caluin aduers Anabapt Caluin doth of your Anabaptists Though they say that the grace of God towards vs is not diminshed if Infants bee not admitted to Baptisme yet I will shewe that it is much diminished for wee must esteeme the grace of God especially by the declaration thereof which he maketh both by his word and Sacraments Seeing therefore that Baptisme is now ordayned that the promise of saluation may be sealed in our bodies as it was in times past in the people of the Iewes Christians should be depriued of a singular consolation if their children should be secluded from this confirmation which all the faithfull haue at all times inioyed that they should haue the visible signe whereby the Lord doth shewe and witnesse that he receiueth their children into the fellowship of the Church The Germane The 53. SeÌ„blance ALthough our Anabaptists taught that Infants ought not to be baptized yet before they broached this their heresie they found fault only with ceremonies vsed in Baptisme and namely they said that a Bulling Fol 10 214. interrogatories ministred to sucking Infants are meere fooleries The Englishman Your Anabaptists then fell from schisme into heresie for first as you say they scorned interrogatories and other ceremonies vsed in baptizing of Infants and then afterwards did vtterly condemne baptizing of them I pray God that our Puritanes do not the like for they haue alreadie requested that b In their petition exhibited to the Kinges Maiestie interrogatories ministred to Infants c. as superfluous may be taken away Yea T. C. hath euen in scornfull tearmes vttered against interrogatories ioyned with the Anabaptists c T. C. page 134. sect vlt. This questioning saith he can be little better tearmed then a very trifling and toying But farre otherwise speaketh Maister d Perkins in his exposition of the creâ—d fol. 4 Perkins of it for he saith that this manner of questioning was vsed euen from the time of the Apostles I wonder then with what face our Puritanes can tearme this questioning trifling and toying the which was vsed both in the dayes of the Apostles and in the next age after them as appeareth by the writings of e Dyonis Areopag de ecclesiast Hirarch lib 7. Dyonisius Areopagita f Iustin Mart. 1 Apol. Iustiâ—â— Martyr g Tertul. de corona militis Tertullian h cyprian epist 6. 12. Cyprian i Orig. homil 5. 12. in numer Origen k Basil despir sancto cap. 27. Basil l Ambros de Sacram. Lib. 1. cap. 2. lib. 2. cap 7. hexam lib. 1. cap. 4. Ambrose m Chrysost Homil. â—1 aâ— populum Aâ—tioch Chrisostome n Câ—s de incarnat Lib. â— cap. 5. Cassiâ—nus o August epist ad Bonifacium Augustine p Gyrâ—l in catechâ—si mystagogica Cyrill q Isidor de officiis ecclesiast Lib. 1. Isidore r Raban de institut clericorum cap. 10. Rabanus and others But to leaue your administration of Baptisme did your Anabaptists finde any fault with your celebration of the Lords Supper The Germaine The 54. SeÌ„blance YEs they cried out as a Bullinger Fol. 9. 18. Bullinger also relateth that the Lords supper was not sincerely ministred in Germanie according to the custome of the Apostolike Church The Englishman Our Puritanes likewise say that our b Admon 2 Fol. 42 43 Sacraments are wickedly mangled and prophaned yea and wickedly ministred Yea they crie out with your Anabaptists c Admon 1 page 95. sect 3 that things are not reduced to the Apostolike Church that in the Apostles time they read not the Nicene creede in their communion nor fragments of the Epistle and Gospell d Admon 95â— sect r that they receyued it sitting e Admon page 99 that then it was deliuered generally and indefinitely Take yee end eate yee not particularly and singularlie Take thou and eate thou f Admon page 100 that they ministred the Sacraments plainely not pompouslie with Singing Piping Surplesse and Cope wearing g Admon page 103. 104 that they ministred them simply as they receiued it from the Lorde wee sinnefully mixt with mans inuentions and deuises Loe this is their rayling against our sincere administration of the Lords Supper Did your Sectaries come neare them The Germaine The 55. SeÌ„blance Yes ours said that wee were so farre from imitating the Apostles in these things as that indeede h Bulling fol 9 18 wee conformed our selues to the Papists The Englishman So doe our Puritanes too for they say that wee haue i Admon page 94 an Introite brought in by Pope Celestinus that k Admon page 97 wee minister it with Wafer Cakes brought in by Pope Alexander beeing in forme fashion and substance like their God of
the Altar that we l Admon page 95 receiue it kneeling according to Honorius decree that m Admon page 101 we borrow from Papists these wordes the bodie of our Lord Iesus Christ which was giuen for thee c. and that we haue Gloria in exceisis brought in by Telesphorus But to proceede on in these matters concerning a Admon page 10. 2. the Lords Supper what other opinions held they The Germaine 5 The 56. SeÌ„blance THey held that we must not receiue the Lordes supper with wicked men And for proofe thereof they alleaged 1. Cor. 5. 11. to which place Maister b Calâ—in ad â—â—â— Anabapt Caluin answereth thus Paul doth forbid to eate with those that liue dissolutely That pertaineth to priuate conuersation not to the publike Communion But will some say if it bee not lawfull for a Chrictian man to keepe companie with him that is wicked for corporall meate much lesse may bee receiue with him the Lordes bread I answere that it is in our power whether weâ— may be familiarly conuersant with the wicked or no and therefore ought euery one to â—he from them but it is not so in our power to receiue the Communion or not to receiue it therefore the reason is not all one wee must therefore note that if the Church doe tollerate and suffer an vnworthy man he shall doe well that knowing him to be such a one doth abstaine from his companie as much as hee can so that his doing make no schisme or separation in the Church The Englishman The c Admon page 102. Admonitors obiected the selfe same place to the same ende and purpose that your Anabaptists did and our late d In his defence of the answere to the Admon Page 603. Archbishoppe answerod them as Maister Caluin answered the Anabaptists But not to discourse any longer about the administration of the Sacraments did not your Anabaptists finde fault with your solemnization of Matrimony The Germane Yes they did indeede The Englishman What I pray you The Germane The 57. SeÌ„blance SAint a Chrisost in 1. ad Tim. homil 9. Chrysostome an auncient Father reporteth how that in his daies those Maidens that kept their virginitie vsed to weare a Garland vpon the day of their marriages in token that they had ouercome the flesh and the lustes thereof This ceremonie as b Zanchius de matrim cap 2. Zanchius truly relateth we retaine still in Germany and that for these three speciall cause viz. 1. Because it is as hath beene proued by the testimony of S. Chrysostome of great antiquitie in the Church of God 2. Because experience teacheth vs that it doth much good in our Countrie for Maidens with vs doe striue for the Garland and so consequently to keepe themselues Virgins least they should bee married without a Garland 3. Because it hath for a long time beene vsed in our countrie and therefore none our Sectaries excepted doe speak against it for as c Ibid Zanchius speaketh in our behalfe res externae c. thinges externall which are not repugnaâ—t to the word of God which neither are superstitious nor obsceane are to be ebserued according to the custome of the Countrie wherein we liue The Englishman The Ring in Matrimonie is as auncient a ceremonie as the Garland is for d Tertul in appol cap. 6. Tertullian who liued almost two hundred yeares before S. Chrysostome his time maketh mention of it Yea I make no question but that it was in vse in the very daies of our Sauiour Christ for Christ himselfe as S. e Iubet annuluÌ„ reddi desponsationis in signe et nuptiarum pignus chrysost in Homil de patre et duobus filiis Chrysostome hath well obserued alludeth vnto it in that part of the Parable Luke 15. 22. then the Father said to his seruant bring forth the bestrobe and put it on him and put a Ring on his hand All which notwith-standing our Sectaries do not rest satisfied but do make sute b See their petition to the King that the Ring in Mariage may be corrected But to leaue the solemnization of Matrimony what did your Anabaptists teach concerning excommunication The Germaine THey taught that Excommunication is a matter of The 58. SeÌ„blance saluation and that there is no true Church where no Excommunication is This the Anabaptists doe vrge saith c Bullinger lib. 6. aduers Anabapt Bullinger that there is no true Church acceptable vnto God where there is no Excommunication c. To these therefore we answere that the Church of Corinth was a true Church and so acknowledged of Saint Paul to be 1. Cor. 1. before there was any vse of Excommunication in it The Englishman Our Puritanes doe herein as it seemeth little differ from your Anabaptists for their chiefe Doctor d T C. reply page 14. faith that excoÌ„munication and other censures of the Church are matters of saluation But what other faults found your Anabaptists with the Church of Germanie The Germane The 59. SeÌ„blance WHat others truly they e Vide Bulling fol. 18. held it to be no Church at all and said in plaine tearmes that it was not the true Church of Christ The Englishman So haue our Sectaries likewise saide that our Church is not the true Church of Christ I will acquaint you with their words f Adm. 1. page 34. May it please your wisdoms to vnderstand that we in England are so farre off from hauing a Church reformed according to the prescript of Gods word that as yet wee are not come to the outward face of the same But tell me I pray you had your Sectaries no cause at all to find fault with your Church was there no olde Popish trash remaining in it Had you no Reliques of superstition amongst you The Germane The 60. SeÌ„blance No but they construed indeede euery thing in the worst part for which cause Zuinglius saith thus of them a Zuinglius in ecclesiast If they were sent of God they would haue construed in the best part these externall things c. The Englishman The like may we say of our Sectaries for ther is scarce any thing in our booke of common Prayer which they haue not construed in the worst part To acquaint you with some particulars they make simple people beleeue that we absolue men from their sins when as indeed we doe onely in the name of God according to his b Iehn 20. 23 word pronounce to a peniteÌ„t sinner that he is absolued pardoned and forgiuen They do also beare the world in hand that we vse confirmation as a Sacrament that we adde it to make Baptisme perfect when as they know I appeale to their own consciences that confirmation now vsed in our Church is not to make Baptisme perfect but partly to try how the suerties haue performed that which was enioyned them when the children were baptized and partly that
the children themselues being once of discretion may with their owne mouth and with their owne consent openly before the Church confirme the same and also promise that by the Grace of God they will euermore endeuour themselues faithfully to obserue such thinges as they by their owne confession haue assented vnto Againe they say that we c Admon page 195. make the maried maâ— to make an Idoll of his wife saying with my body I thee worship when as our meaning onely is that the man should as the Apostle biddeth him d 1. Peter 3. 7. giue honour vnto the woman as vnto the weaker vessell To conclude this construing of things in the worst part was a thing very common at the late conference as appeareth by these his Maiesties words e See the Proclamation for the authoriz We thought meetâ— with the consent of the Bishops and other learned mâ—n there present that some small thinges might rather bee explained then changed not that the same â—ight not verie well haue beene borne with by men who would haue made reasonable construction of them c. But to proceede to some other matters what other opinions held your Anababtists The Germaine The 61. SeÌ„blance VVHy do you thus wearyme with relating their opinions Maister d Bullinger fol. 18. Bullinger telleth you that there was no stay in them but that daily they inuented new opinions and did runne from errour to errour The Englishman How new-fangle likewise our Nouellists are it appeareth by their often correcting altering and amending of their plat-forme of Discipline But what need I produce any arguments to proue this T. C. and his adherents in one of their examinations in the Starre-chamber did confesse and auouch it vpon their oathes e See the Survey of preteÌ„ded holy discipline that there were then after many meetings which they had some things in their draught of discipline wherein they were not resolued And I verily perswade my selfe that if our obstinate Ministers were pressed vpon their oathes they would notwithstanding all their ploddings together acknowledge that they are not resolued in all points what they would haue Yea this their affectation of noueltie was such as that it moued the Kings Maiestie to giue this admonition to all his Subiects f See the proclamation before alleadged We do admonish all men that hereafter they shall not expect nor attempt any further alteration in the common and publique forme of Gods seruice from this which is now established for that neither will wee giue way to any to presume that our iudgement hauing determined in a matter of this waight shall be swayed to alteration by the friuolous suggestions of any light spirits neyther are we ignorant of the inconueniences that doe arise in gouernment by admitting innouation in things once setled by mature deliberation and how necessarie it is to vse constancie in the vpholding of the publike determinations of States for that such is the vnquietnes and vnstedfastnes of some dispositions affecting euerie yere new formes of things as if they should be followed in their inconstancy would make all actions of states ridiculous and contemptible c. And thus you see how that our Sectaries doe affect new formes of thinges inuent new opinions runne from error to error as your Anabaptists did But what doe you coniecture to be the cause that these your Sectaries did thus runne from one new opinion to an other were not of a more stayed settled iudgement The Germaine The 62. seÌ„blance TRuely it was as I coniecture because they contemned disdained the old fathers of the church and thought it the loosing of good houres to peruse their writings The Englishman It greeueth me to see how lightly our Sectaries also esteeme of the classicall principal Doctours of the church next the Apostles of Christ and their next succeeders whome they ought to a Ego illos â—â—â—eror taâ—â—â— nominibus reuerence to doe a kinde of homage to their very names and to acknowledge that of them all which was said of b Sencea lib. 8. Epist 65 two of theÌ„ viz that they are euen the hammers of Hereticks the eyes of the world The Germaine Why how doe they account of these Starres and Ornaments of learning The Englishman How lightlye they account of them the verye wordeâ— of T. C. doe make proofe who when he was vrged with the testimonies of Ignatius TertulliaÌ„ CypriaÌ„ Ierome Augustine â—nd others cryed out that c T. C. lib. 1 pag. 154 truth was measured by the crooked yard of time Yea he tearmeth the seeking into the Fathers writings d T. C. lib. 1 page 114 araking in Ditches The Germaine And doe they make the same reckoning too of auncient Councels and Synodes The Englishman The 63. seÌ„blance YEs the Councell of Nice of Neosesarea of Gangren and of Orleance being quoted to proue the authoritie of the Church in thinges indifferent T. C. complained T. C. Lib 1 pag. 29. 32 that he was pestered with such a kinde of authoritie insteed of Isai Ieremie S. Paul and S. Peter The Germaine It is likely that they esteemed very lightly of the writings of heatheÌ„ writers seeing that they made so small recconing of auncient Councels and Synodes The Englishman True did your Sectaries make any greater account of them The Germaine Ours no there was one Iohn Mathew their principal prophet that commaunded as Sleidan testifieth euery Sleidan lib 10 one of his followers to bring all his bookes whatsoeuer sauing the Bible to be publiquely burned which was accordingly performed The Englishman Belike then they were of opinion that all Gentile learning should be abandoned from the lips of Christians The Germaine The 64. seÌ„blance YEs and especially from the lips of Preachers The Englishman Saint Augustine writing against Petilian telleth vs Aug lib 3. contra Petilian cap. 16. that the said Petilian his aduersatie did accuse him for a Lâ—giâ—ian and did bring Logicke it selfe to her try all before the people as the mistresse of forgery and lying and because he shewed some Rhethorike did note him by the name of Tertullus the Orator and charged him with the damnable wit of Carneades the Academicke Your Anabaptists I see were of Petilian his humor The Germaine True and are not your Sectaries so too The Englishman Yes My heart saith one of them in a certaine Schismatical a Intittled the State of the church of England pag 25 Booke that is very rife amongst our Puritans waxeth colde my flesh trembleth to heare you say that a Preacher should confirme his matter out of the Fathers and humaine writers doth preaching consist in quoting of Doctors alleadging of Poets Philosophers In what part of his commission hath a Minister warrant so to doe The Germaine In what part doth not S. Paul himself aledge b Act 17. 28 Aratus c 1 cor 15 33 Menander
d Tit 1 12 Epimenides who were all heathen Poets Is not this a sufficient warrant for a Minister But I see the reason why both your Sectaries and ours doe take such vehement exceptions against Poets Philosophers The Englishman What is the reason The Germaine The 65. seÌ„blance SVrely as e Vide August lib. 3. contra Pâ—til cap. 16 Petilian dispraised Logick Rhethoricke because he himself was ignoâ—aÌ„t in those arts so doe our Sectaries contemne all Gentile learning and blame men that make vse of it because they themselues are ignorant therein The Englishman Is this the cause thinke you The Germaine Yes doubtles for as f Greg Nizianz in Mâ—nâ—d Nazianzene saith non vlla dispicienda disciplina cognitio cum de genere bonorum scientia sit omnis c. There is â—ot any knowledge of learning to be dispised seeing that all science what-soeuer is in the nature and kinde of good thinges Rather those that g Ipsam spermentes rustiâ—os et plane ignaues existimare de beâ—â—â— dispise it we must repute clownish and fluggish altogether who would be glad that all men were ignorant that their owne ignorance lying in the common heap might not be espyed The Englishman Well then they are like the Foxe that despiseth the Grapes which himselfe cannot reach The Germaine Nay they are rather like that olde Foxe a Vâ—lpecâ—lâ— câ—â—â—â— amissa reliquis â—â—lpâ—bus calliâ— pâ—rsuasit vt similiter et ipsa caâ—das resecarent â—â— sola â—â—rpis et deforâ—â—â— in suâ— generâ— viderâ—â—â—r Melanct. who hauing had a mischance and lost his tayle went straight way to the Beastes of the same kinde and fell to perswade theÌ„ euery one to cut of his tayle pleading the waightines and combersomnes of it with many the like circumstances but the matter comming throughly to bee examined and scand it was found that the craftie Foxe did it onely to couer his owne deformitie which if to be without tayles had once become a fashion should neuer haue beene â—spied But to speake in earnest there were other reasons besides this why our Sâ—ctaries dispise all Gentile and Prophane learning The Englishman What other The Germaine IT appeareth by the preface of Luther vpon the Epistle The 66. seÌ„blance to the Galathians that our Anabaptistes condeÌ„ned the graces and workes of God for the in digniâ—ie and vnworthynesse of the persons and subiects in whome they were found The Englishman So doe our Puritanes likewise contemne the writingeâ— of the Gentiles because the authors thereof were wicked prophane and superstitious Idolaters I speake what I knowe to be the opinion of some of them The Germaine To such may you fitly say as Ierome said to Ruffinus in his time volo sis api argumentosâ— similis c. I would haue thee like the wittie discoursing Bee which from a nettle gathereth hony But let vs leaue this particular and proceed in order to some other matter The Englishman No before I leaue this particular let me shew you how greately they esteeme of their owne writers The Germaine The 67. seÌ„blance VVHat doe they preferre them as our Anabaptists did theirs before the auncient fathers who were the verie pillers of Religion Christianity in their daies The Englishman Yes before all the best late writers too For the iustifying of whaâ— I haue said I will acquaint you with the expresse wordes of some of T. C. his proselytes and followers I thanke God quoth one b F. to 1 Aâ—â—â— Dom. 1586 of them I haue satisfied in part my longing with T. C. of whome I thinke at sheâ— did of Salomon Wee want Bookes c F to G Aâ—â—â— Dom. â—58â— said an other wherby we may come to the knowledge of the truth I meane T. C his Bookes Yea T. C. saith the DISPLAYER OF MEN IN THEIR COLOVRS is a man as well able to iudge as all the Lord Bishops in Christendomâ— Henserui regnant Famuli dominantur Asselli Ornantur phaleris de phalarantur equi But to proceede howsoeuer his Proselites account of his Bookes it is moste true that they are Puritan popish and thaâ— they haue indeede beene d Viruâ— eccles â—t râ—iâ— the verye poyson of Church and Common-wealth Not to conceale Doctor Whitaker his iudgement touching this point Quem Câ—rtwrightus saith he speaking of his second reply â—â—per emisit libellum 〈◊〉 magnam partem perlegi Ne viuamsi quid vnquam viderim dissolutius ac paene puerilius VerboruÌ„ satiâ— ille quidem lautam ac nouam supellectilem habet reruÌ„ omnino nullam quantum â—go iudicare possâ—m Deinde noÌ„ modo perâ—ersse de Principis in rebus sâ—cris atque ecclesiasticis authoritate sentit sed in papistarâ— etiam castra transfugit a quibus tameÌ„ videri vult idiâ— capitali dissidere Verâ—mne in hac causa ferendus et alijs etiam in partibus tela a papistis mâ—tâ—atur Denique vt dâ— Ambrosiâ— dixit Hiâ—ronimâ—s verbis â—â—dit planâ—que indignus est qui a quop aÌ„ docto confutetur That is I haue read ouer a great part of that Book which Cart wright hath lately published I pray God I liue not if euer I saâ—â— any thing more dissolute and almost more childish He hath ingreat store of plausible wordes but no substance as farre as I can iudge Furthermore he thinketh not onely perueâ—sly of the Princes authoritie in ecclesiasticall affaires but he flyeth into the very tents of the Papists from whome he would be thought to dissent with a deadly haâ—red But he is not to be suffered in this cause and in other partes he borroweth weapons from the Papists To conclude as Ieâ—ome said of Ambrose he playeth with wordes and is flatly vnworthy to be confuted of any learned man Loe this is the iudgement which this learned iudicious diuine gaue of T. C. his bookes which many now a dayes doe make as great account of as of Oracles And thus much concerning our Puritan-Popish teachers now let vs come to their Proselytes followers The Germaine To their Proselytes what haue they any Proselites The Englishman Yes they haue compassed sea and land haue made many their Proselites the children of error as deeply as themselâ—es The Germaine And indeed so did our Anabaptists too The Englishman Of what sorte I pray you were their Proselytes and followers The Germaine The 6â— seÌ„blance OF what sorte Master Bullinger telleth you that such of the vulger sort aâ— were of contentious natures Bullinger adâ—ers â—nabâ—p ioyned with them and commended their doings Amongst the rest there was one Iohn of Leyden a Towne in Holland hauing none other name by reason of his ignobility being but a Cobler by his occupation who came into the Citie of Munster which is the principall Citie of Westphalia a Pouince in Germany and there became an egregious Anabaptist The Englishman What! were your chiefe Cities pestred with Anabaptists The Germaine The 69. seÌ„blance
preach because he was conformable to the orders of the Church but went to a place called Stoake where the Minister fitted his humor betterâ— yet there would not goe into the church vntill he had heard the Psalme begun before the Sermon for feare hee should haue beene poluted with their prayers And there are yet many also now a daies who to my knowledge wil not vouchsafe to heare their owne preachers but wil goe fixe or seauen miles to heare one of their new fangle faction Yea some of them to my knowledge haue refused to receaue the Lords Supper at the hands of their owne Minister because hee would not suffer them to receiue it sitting but went to an other b Q. Minister that ministred it according to their owne liking The Germaine The 73. seÌ„blance YEa but I hope they did not account all men wicked that were not of their sect as our Anabaptists c Bullinger Fol. 1. did The Englishman Yes our Puritanes contemne and dispise all those that bee not of their faction as poluted and not worthye to be saluted or kept companye with and therefore some of them as our late d in his defenet of the Answere to the Adâ—oâ— Arch-bishop testifieth meeting their olde acquaintance being Godlye Preachers haue not onely refused to salute them but spit in their faces wishing the plagne of God to light vpon them and saying that they were daâ—â—ed and that God had taken his spirit from them and all this because they did were asquare Cappe But what other lewde qualities haue you obserued in your Anabaptists The Germaine The 74. seÌ„blance WHat other it is not vnknowne to any that hath peâ—used the writinges of Germain-writers how that the Anabaptists haue veryfied the olde prouerbe in strayning at Gnats and swallowing downe Camels The Englishman And it is not vnknowne to all the orders and companies of this Realme how that our Puritanes haue verâ—fied the same prouerbe For albeit their throates be sometimes so strait as that they wil not swallow downe a Gnat yet at other times they are so wide as that they will swallowe downe a Camel But not to insist in a matter so manifest What other vile qualities had they The Germaine The 75. seÌ„blance TRuely this they did so slaunder and reuile our Ministers as that they ought to vse a Zuinglius in Ecclesiast Zuinglius his words to be suspected hated of al Godly meÌ„ euen for their slaunderous and cursed speaking The Englishman But your Anabaptists come not neere our lay-Puritanes in abusing of their Ministers The Germaine No! The Englishman No verily for they haue imitated the vnbeleeuing Iewes in the b Act. 17. 5 Actes who tooke vnto them a company of wandring companions such as stood idle in the market-place wicked men and gathered a multitude and made an vprore in the whole Cittie and came to the house of Iason to fetch out Paul and Silas The GermaineÌ„ What! haue there beene any so fauyce with Gods Messengers The Englishman Yes there are some who to my knowledge did not long since take vnto themselues a company of idle fellowâ—s such as the vnbeleeuing Iewes did and gathered a multitude of their factious â—rue and came inâ—o the vâ—rye house of God there to checke and controle their Minister because he had often preached against their factious proceedings and other their impieties But not to iâ—sist onely in their reuyling of Ministers haue they any thing else in their mouths but contumelâ—â—s slaunders defamations opprobrious detractions supercilious insolent and vncharitable accusations of all states and conditions of men that haue any way hindred their pretended reformation When I consider this I finde that the Epigramme dooth well beseeme them which Corneliâ—s Agrippa wrote of him-selfe Inter diuos nullos non carpit Momus Inter heroas monstr a quaeque insectatur Hercules Inter dâ—mones rex Herebi Pluton Irascitur omnibus vmbris Inter Philosophos ridet omnia Democritus Contra deflet cuncta Heraâ—litus Nefcit quaeque Pyrhias Eâ— soire sepuiat omnia Aristoteles Contemnit cuncta Diogines Nullus hic parcit Agrippa Contemnit scit â—escit flet ridet irascitâ—r Iâ—sectatur carpit omnia The Germaine But to interrupt you and to stay you from vttering the last veâ—se of that Epigrame I will acquaint you with â—â—â— common vice of our Anabaptists The Englishman What is that I pray you The Germaine TRuely this albeit they speake much of mortification The 76. seÌ„blance yet were they greatly giuen to lustfull carnalitie and vncleannes And for further proofe heereof I refer you to Stanhusius his Booke of Meteors where he hath these wordes a Stanhusius Lib. 2. de meteor tractaâ— de Câ—â—etis Anabaptiste omni sublatâ— disciplina et honestate omnia libidinis genera exeâ—eâ—â—runt Now what say you to this matter doe your Puritanes heerein resemble your Anabaptistâ— The Englishman I say of four Puritanes as Saint Paul said of the Corinthians b 1. Cor. 5. 1 It is heard certainelye that there is forâ—ication among them But what neede I goe by heare-say I haue seene the man that laide Hagar in his bosome because Sara was barren Yea I will not acquaint you with the tenth part of what I knowe and am able to iustifie Let vs see what other thing you haue obserued in your Anabaptists The Germaine The 77. seÌ„blance I Haue obserued that albeit they were thus vicious yet they vsually obiected against our Germaine Ministers that c Vide Bulling Lib. 1. aduers Anabapâ— in their congregation there was a manifest amendment of life but in ours none at all The Englishman The preaching of the word of God praysed bee his holy name hath beene effectuall in England and hath brought multitudes from superstition and palpable darkenes to the true knowledge of god c. yet notwithstanding some of our a â— C. Reply page 34 47 Sectaries haue vsed the selfe â—â—me obiection against our Church But to leaue this paâ—ticular how did they cloake these their vices The Germaine The 78. seÌ„blance TRuely they did beare the world in hand as a Zuinglius in Ecclesiast Zuinglius testifieth that whatsoeuer they did they did it being thereunto mooued by the spirit The Englishman So did one of our Sectaries in a lettâ—â— to Haâ—kâ—â— wherin he vsed these speeches b See the Conspir page 23. If his moste holy spirit direct you to come come if not stay And againe the working of his moste holy spirit in mâ— since your departure is mightiâ— great yea â—â— zeale of spirit 〈◊〉 like fire But not to wearie ouâ— selues any longer let vâ— heere though abruptly breake off this our conference The Germaine No giue me leaue I pray you to relate the abhominable opinions detestable qualities and execrable treacheries of some of our Anabaptists and then wee will conclude The Englishman Well proceede The Germaine The 79. seÌ„blance THeâ—e was