A CONFVTATION OF M. Lewes Hewes HIS DIALOGVE OR AN ANSWER to a DIALOGVE or Conference betweene a Country Gentleman and a Minister of Gods Word about the Booke of COMMON PRAYER Set forth for the Satisfying of those who clamour against the said Booke and maliciously revile them that are serious in the use thereof Whereunto is annexed a Satisfactory Discourse concerning EPISCOPACY and the SVRPLISSE Published by Authority LONDON Printed for I. M. at the George in Fleestreet neere Saint Dunstans Church 1641. M. LEWES HEWES His DIALOGVE ANSVVERED Or An Answer to a Dialogue or Conference betweene a Country Gentleman and a Minister of Gods Word about the Booke of COMMON PRAYER Set forth for the Satisfying of those who clamour against the said Booke and maliciously revile them that are serious in the use thereof Whereunto is annexed a Satisfactory Discourse concerning EPISCOPACY and the SVRPLISSE Published by Authority LONDON Printed for I. M. at the George in Fleestreet neere Saint Dunstans Church 1641. AN ANSWER TO A Dialogue or Conference BETWEENE A Countrey GENTLEMAN AND A MINISTER of GODS Word About the Book of Common PRAYER The DIALOGUE Gent. I Am very glad that I have met with you and did long to speake with you that you might satisfie mee in some things concerning the Booke of Common Prayer therefore I pray you tell mee truly as I hope you will is there any thing in it contrary to Gods Word Min. Yes verily it is full of Popish errours and doth appoint horrible blasphemies and lying fables to bee read to the people in stead of Gods holy Word and hath caused the Church of England to groane under the abominations of the Church of Rome even from the infancie of it in Queene Elizabeths time untill this houre and now there is great hope that a time of refreshing and deliverance is at hand through the blessing of God on this Parliament The ANSVVER If you were not as great a friend to the Brownists as you are an enemie to the Papists you would not thus cast dust in the face of the Church of England and blemish the pietie of those who notwithstanding they died in defence of the truth against Poperie did neverthelesse embrace the Booke of Common Prayer using it to their great comfort commending it to others and sometimes hugging it even in the very flames as in Master Foxes Acts and Monuments may be seene DIALOGUE Gent. I never heard any blasphemy or lying fable read in the Church Minist I thinke so because it may be that you were never in the Church on those dayes wherein they are appointed to bee read Gent. Upon what dayes are they appointed to be read Minist On the fourth of October in the forenoone it appointeth an horrible blasphemy to be read for the first Lesson out of the 12. of Tobie and the 9. verse where it is written that Almes doe save from Death and purge away all sinne which is a maine ground of Poperie and an horrible blasphemie against Christ and his blood that clenseth us from all sin 1 Ioh. 1.7 Also in the 15. verse of that Chapter it is written that there are seven Angels that doe present our prayers which is another horrible blasphemy against Christ who onely doth present our prayers Rev. 8.3,4 Gent. These are horrible blasphemies indeed ANSVVER I hope if you be a Minister as you say you are you cannot but know that those Bookes which are not in the number of the Canonicall Bookes of Scripture are not appointed to be read as the other are For our Church though it be otherwise in the Church of Rome doth not apply them to establish any doctrine as in her sixth Article of Religion she hath proclaimed They are not allowed to thwart any place of holy Scripture but at the best to informe manners and not to confirme faith For though they be in many things clear and correspondent to the holy Scriptures yet this makes them not to be of the same Canonicall authoritie All that S. Hierom saith is this viz. that they be Canonici ad informandos mores non ad confirmandam fidem And S. Austin thus Aug. De Civit. Dei lib. c. 23. Let us saith he omit the Scriptures that are called Apocripha because the old Fathers of whom we had the Scriptures knew not the authors of those workes wherein though there be some trâ—ths yet their multitude of falshoods makes them of no Canonicall Authoritie where by saying Let us omit the Scriptures that are called Apocripha he meanes that they should not bee used for the proving of any Doctrine which cannot bee proved out of the other Scriptures which are the undoubted Word of God Nor bee they but of use likewise for matter of Storie especilly the Bookes of the Machabees which neverthelesse are not to teach a man either to sacrifice for the dead or to kill himselfe The direction therefore which King Iames gave the Clergy in his Conference with them at Hampton Court is altogether a full answer namely that wherein there was any errour hee would not have them read at all wâ— h saying of his must needs be enough to stop this quarrellers mouth and tell him that he makes a stirre without a cause not caring to disturbe the peace of his holy mother which how he can be able to answer let him judge by that which Christ hath charged him with in Cantic 2.7 And thus both by the Articles of our Church the determination of Fathers and the direction of his late Majestie of blessed memorie all moderate and quiet spirits may bee satisfied concerning these bookes Apocrypha both for their gonerall and particular DIALOGUE Gent. I pray you let me heare some of the Fables that are in it Min. On the fourth of October in the afternoone it appointeth a lying fable to be read out of the 11 of Tobie where it is written that Tobie going to the doore to meet his sonne Tobias comming from Rages did stumble and that his sonne ran unto him and laid the gall of a fish to his eyes and that the whitenesse did scale off and hee restored to his sight ANSWER To thinke that this is therefore fabulous because the gall of a fish is said to be used as a medicine for the eyes is more than a wise man will be forward to affirme Vid Llod's Treasury of health Phisitians write that dimb sighted eyes are cured by the gall of a Partridg so also by the gall of a Turtle-dove I have likewise read that the gall of a Cocke mixt with the juyce of Selandine and hony being annointed on the eyes restoreth sight The gall of a Gripe or Ramme is also used in medicine for the same purpose And if the galls of these creatures be thus precious for the eyes why may not the like vertue be in the gall of some fish I have read it of the Tench that his slime is for some things as medicinable as a salve whereupon
somewhat worse them whom in all parts it doth not satisfie And let me say that heretofore Rogations or Letanies were the very strength stay and comfort of Gods Church In the dayes of Mamercus bishop of Vienna the people seeing how heaven threatned their City with imminent ruine began to fly away from it but their Bishop staying still and some others with him exhorted such as remained to use those vertuous and holy means wherewith others in the like case have prevailed with God Whereupon they fly to the Rogations or Letanies formerly used the Bishop perfects them in what he thâ—ught meet and addes unto them what the present necessity required Their good successe was not only a thing known but an encouragement to others who being afflicted with famine and besieged by their enemies took the same course as in particular is storied of Sidoneus the Bishop of Arverna Nor doe we but find by daily experience that those calamities may be neerest at hand and readiest to break in suddainly upon us which we in regard of times or circumstances may imagine to be farthest off as judicious Hooker speaketh Or if they doe not indeed approach yet such miseries as being present all men are apt to bewaile with tears the wise saith he should rather by their prayers prevent Or if finally we for our selves had a priviledge of immunity doth not true Christian charity require that whatsoever any part of the world yea any one of all our brethren doth either suffer or feare the same we account as our own burthen The Letany saith one is a common treasure house of all good devotion It may be said of the Church in composing that exquisite prayer as it was of Origen writing upon the Canticles In caeteris alios omnes vicit in hoc seipsum In other parts of our Liturgy she surpasseth all others but in this her self Some mislike the Letany for that it hath a petition for all men and all people and yet the precept in Gods word is that supplications prayers intercessions and giving of thanks be made for all men 1 Timothy 2.1 Others are angry that we should pray From suddain death good Lord deliver us And I wonder much at this let men of understanding tell me and let a wise man hearken unto me whether it be not better to leave this world with a kinde of treatable dissolution then to be snatcht away as in a moment Xenophon and Plato were Ethnicks and strangers from the common wealth of Israel yet it was no little beauty to their stories to tell us how leasurely Cyrus in the one and Socrates in the other departed hence Absolon had a suddain death and how did David therefore exceed in lamentation Elibu speaks of some which dy in a moment we may therefore beg of God to depart as Jacob Moses Joshua David who had not only respit to end their own lives in peace but also to adde comforts and blessings to those about them But I hasten and come again to the Dialogue DIALOGUE Min. Throughout the whole Letany they doe interrupt him by mingling their prayers with his ANSWER Here still you urge us with interruptions but I have already shewed the weaknesse of this cavill in my former answers and should be glad to see you studdy quietnesse and not to think your selfe wiser then the Church of God in all ages with whom these eager devotions were better esteemed And as Fishes were never accepted for Sacrifices so neither would those Christians be as mute as Fishes in their Congregations DIALOGUE Min. They doe also without any warrant from God but from Pope Hormisda interrupt the Minister when he readeth the Psalmes by taking every other verse out of his mouth to reade it for him with a loud hackering and confused noise especially in Country Churches where the people cannot read well The Minister when he readeth or preacheth Gods word is the mouth of God speaking to the people therefore they ought to be silent and to hearken with reverence ANSWER The Psalter as you know contains the whole book of Psalms they were made by severall men someby Moses some by Solomon some by Asaph and the most by David and not seldome composed upon speciall occasions for the most part either to pray unto God or to praise him in such a set form of words David inscribes many of them to sundry Musitians had them used in the service of God were then and have been since otherwise used in the Lords service then the other Scriptures their tittles shew it and the practise of the Church both among the Jews and the Christians evidently declare it This therefore takes away the edge of your argument by which you endeavour to limit them altogether to the mouth of the Minister And whereas you would beare the world in hand that Hormisda was the man that first appointed them to be used interchangeably See St. Aug. confess lib. 10. cap. 33. you are greatly out from the truth of the story as even your own T. C. will witnesse against you Pantaleon brings testimony that this which you mention was done by Celestine Pantal. in Chronol who was Bishop of Rome about an hundred years before Hormisda But Polydore Virgil goes higher and saith Polyd. Virg. de invent rerum lib 6 cap. 2. That the division of Davids Psalter into seven parts called Nocturnes according to the seven dayes of the week was the work of Hierom at the request of Damasus who was then the Bishop of Rome Damasus also saith the same author instituted that the Psalms should be sung and said by course Thus also Platina Plat. in vitae Damasi but some again say as Polydore noteth that this was first devised by Ignatius Thus also Socrates who maketh Ignatius the Bishop of Antioch in Syria Hist Eccl. cap. 8. the first beginner thereof even under the Apostles themselves he suffered Martyrdome in the daies of the Emperour Trajan unto whom it was related by his own vice-gerent concerning the Christians of Pontus and Bithinya that the onely crime he knew of them was they used to meet together at a certain day and to praise Christ with Hymns as a God secum invicem one to another amongst themselves secund Nor doth this but agree most aptly to the Apostles exhortation in Eph. 5.19 Speak to your selves saith he In Psalms and Hymns and spirituall Songs See also Exod. 15.1 compared with verse 21. and again look into Esay 6.3 DIALOGUE Min. When they read the eighteenth nineteenth and twentieth verses of the fifty Psalm they are likened by some to women scoulding and accusing one another The Clark and people doe begin to scould with and to accuse the Minister saying When thou sawest a thiefe thou consentest unto him and hast been partaker with adulterers Then the Priest accuseth the Clark saying Thou hast let thy tongue speake wickednesse and with thy tongue thou hast set forth deceit Then the Clark and people
man examine himselfe and so let him eat of this Bread and drinke of this Cup. Hugo might have seen it and not have made all eases alike notwithstanding which peremptory assertion of his the Church of Rome left the matter still at liberty yea though Peter Lombard were mightily for it For Gratian who lived and flourished at the same time with Lombard determineth nothing definitively but shewing sentences for either side both that we must confesse our sins to the Priest and not confesse them doth leave it indifferently unto the Readers judgement After whom followed Lotharius Levita a Doctor of Paris the scholler and earnest follower of Peter Lombard who being once made Bishop of Rome and named Innocent the third made a law for it in the Councell of Literan which Gregory the ninth reciteth in his Decretall of Penance and Remission the fift booke and twelfth Chapter to this effect Let every person of either sexe after they are come to the yeares of discretion faithfully confesse alone at least * Semel in animo in the Latine for semel in anno once in a yeare their sinnes unto their owne proper Priest and doe their indeavour with their owne strength to doe the penance that is injoyned them receiving reverently at Easter at the least the Sacrament of the Eucharist unlesse peradventure by the councell of their owne Priest for some reasonable cause they thinke it good for a time to absteine from receiving it Otherwise in this life let them be prohibited to enter into the Church and when they are dead to be buried in Christian buriall This is that new Law which in their little pretty Councell of Trent was further enlarged and more errours added to their abused practice of Absolution But let not the Antichristian abuse of this divine Ordinance abolish the lawfull use thereof betwixt good Christians and their Pastours when need and occasion is to have it used And so I leave this point and come next to give answer unto something else DIALOGUE Gent. Why will they not suffer the Genealogy of Christ to be read to the people Min. They have no warrant for it from God but from the Pope who saith that ignorance is the Mother of devotion therefore the Genealogy of Christ is forbidden to be read of purpose to keepe the people in blindnesse not able to see the truth of God in fulfilling his promise to Abraham and to David that Christ should come of them and of their seed nor to see that Christ came not only of Abraham and of David who were Jewes but also of Rahab and of Ruth who were Gentiles and that therefore Christ is not a Saviour of the Jewes only but also of us Gentiles ANSWER Your judgement is too rash to be credited too rash good man I dare assure you If you had said that the Genealogies were lesse edifying then other scripture and therefore omitted your reason had been of more authority and better agreeing to what is mentioned in the order before the Kalender For tell me I beseech you whether those Instructions and Lessons which you gather from hence are manifest upon the bare reading and if not as for certaine they be not then why should you dare to accuse the Church of such a wicked purpose as to intend the keeping of the people in blindnesse DIALOGUE Gent. Why is the Booke of Canticles forbid to be read Min. It is also forbid of purpose to keep the people in blindenesse not able to see the ardent love and affection of Christ towards them least thereby they should be stirred up to love Christ and to be zealous of his glory and to abhorre the Pope and his Antichristian Religion ANSWER An heape of slanders still Here you take the like liberty to judge that you did before a thing nothing strange to men of your Sect I should else have wondred that you could not have thought the reading of this book to be omited for some other reason which if need were t is like enough I could lay before you But I passe it over and shall only tell you that Preaching may explaine what reading cannot And therefore till you hear Ministers forbidden to open in their Sermons either this book or the other Scriptures that you mention you may right worthy Sir sit worshipfully down and hold your peace DIALOGUE Gent. Why are the bookes of Kings and of Chronicles forbid Min. Because they doe shew that godly Kings did ever love Gods true Prophets and did hearken unto them and were zealous in maintaing the true Religion and in suppressing Idolatry ANSWER You should speak the truth and shame the Devill At the entrance of these accusations although I passed it by because I might here declare it you said that both the Bookes of the Kings except the eight first Chapters of the first Book were forbidden but look again and you will finde it otherwise If your eyes be dim you may use your Spectacles for the truth is that both the books are appointed to be read throughout excepting those eight Chapters which you mention and not vice versa for that 's false And because the Books of the Chronicles do relate the same stories which are written in the Books of the Kings it is sufficient to appoint the reading of the one although the other be omitted DIALOGUE Gent. Why is the Book of the Revelation forbid ANSWER You grant this booke also to be forbidden and yet you know that we have Lessons taken out of the Revelations and read upon Saint Johns day as also upon the day of All-Saints besides Epistles taken from thence and appointed to be read on Trinity Sunday Michaelmasse day and Innocents day Know all men therefore by these presents that you plainly shew your selfe no better then a false accuser In the next place you fall foule upon Bishops and besprinkle them with the durt which your Spleen hath raised only you doe a little qualifie your distast towards them that suffered Martyrdome in the dayes of Queen Mary but like not their love to the Book of Common Prayer thinking your selfe to be more illuminated then were they notwithstanding they laid down their lives in defence of the truth in denying the Popes usurped supremacy and for not granting the Bread and Wine in the Lord Supper to be the Body and Blood of Christ All the rest since have been odious unto you their remembrance loathsome and judged to be men destitute of the true feare of God Their Prelacy dislikes you and your language against them is just as was the language of Corath Dathan and Abiram in the dayes of old against Moses and Aaron Num. 16.3 Diotrephes was one also who would not receive the Apostles but prated against them with malicious words as Saint John hath told us Epist 3. v. 9 10. and because this pert man that thus prated against them could not be above them he slights them and labours for preeminence But what say the
the Tench is commonly called the Phisitian of other fishes And although I want leisure to search further yet on the suddaine this I find That the fat of fresh river fishes molten and mingled with oyle and hony are of great excellency for the clearenesse of the eyes and if the fat of some fishes why not of some their gall I conclude therefore that more happy is hee who by his paines and industry can find out the causes of things than he who is so singular as to account all fables but his owne fancies DIALOGUE Minist On the thirtieth of September another lying fable is appointed to be read of an Angell that was sent to scale the whitenesse from his eyes and to give Sara the daughter of Raguel to his son Tobias in marriage and to bind Asmodeus an evill spirit that was in love with her and had killed seven men that had bin married unto her ANSWER You care little for method I see September else had beene before October But to let that passe and come to the matter in hand Though I thinke no man bound to beleeve any further of this which you tearme another lying fable than himselfe pleaseth yet this is certaine that the Scriptures themselves declare how the Angels are sent on Gods arrants and have sometimes appeared not onely to punish the wicked but also to do good offices for the godly as when Lot was led out of Sodom two Angels came unto him and left him not untill they had set him in safety Nor was the Poole of Bethesda but moved by an Angell after which motion hee that first stepped in was healed of whatsoever infirmitie he had The Scriptures also mention that the Angels are all ministring spirits sent forth to minister for them who shall be heires of salvation Hebr. 1.14 and that the good Angels sometimes fight against the bad Revel 12.7 and that they pitch their tents round about those that feare God Psalm 34.7 The Scriptures saith Saint Austin Aug de civit Dei â—…b 15. c. 23 plainely averre that the Angels have appeared both in visible and palpable figures Which saying of his is verified even by that already mentioned concerning the Angels which came to Lot at Sodom for Lot saw them in the likenesse of men talked with them and had tryall of the palpablenesse of their bodies even when they put forth their hands and pulled him into the house if not also when they led him out of the Citie An Angell of the Lord appeared likewise unto Gideon in the likenesse of a man with a staffe in his hand Judges 6.21 And how Manoah and his wife were instructed by an Angell concerning the birth and education of their sonne Sampson is recorded in the thirteenth chap. of the same booke of Scripture By all which it appeareth that there is no absolute necessitie that this which you mention should be therefore fabulous because an Angell was sent among them For the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is Nuncius in Latine as you know and that in English is a Messenger It comes from the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is Mitto To send and therefore the word Angell is no name of Nature but of Ministery or Office as is observed by the Fathers And as for that which is next of the evill spirit being in love with the daughter of Raguel I finde in the writings of some Authours that which I am sure is nothing against it And first of all I shall mention that which is certaine namely that some both places and persons have beene haunted by evill spirits and therefore it is not altogether improbable to think some such thing of Saras bed and Chamber The more unlikely is that the evill spirit should have liberty to kill her seven Husbands and yet wee know that the Devill hath had leave sometimes to doe the like as in that * See also Psal 78.49 example of Iobs servants and his children recorded in the first Chapter of the booke of Iob is plainely manifest But the most unlike is that this evill spirit should bee in love a thing which comes something neere to that interpretation which Lactantius gives Lact. lib. 2. cap. 15. of the Sonnes of God and the daughters of Men in Genesis the sixt the second namely that they should take them Wives have carnall action with them and by that meanes bee kept out of Heaven and cast to the Earth who thereupon became agents and officers for the devill and his angels who were fallen long before Now against this Saint Austin comes with a firme beliefe for though he seemes to yeeld rather than deny some such thing concerning Devils as I shall afterwards mention yet he firmely beleeves the contrary concerning Gods Angels And as for devills Michael Psellus affirmeth out of one Marke a great Daemonist that the watery and earthly Devils have such bodies as are nourished like spunges with attraction of humour affirming also that they have certaine genitours cast forth sperme and produce by which I think he meanes the Fairies diverse little creatures The Aegyptians say that the devils can only accompany carnally with Women and not with Men. Plutarch goeth further and saith That the Fables of the Gods signified some things that the Devils had done in the old time And there are saith Ludovicus Vives Com. in Aug. De civit Dei lib. 15. c. 23. a people at this day which glory that their discents are from the Devills who accompanied with Women in Mens shapes and with Men in Womens Whereto agreeth that which is reported of Merlin that hee was begotten of a spirit Nor is it but a generall report and averred by many either from their owne tryall or from others that are of indubitable honestie and credit as saith Saint Austin that the Sylvanes and Faunes commonly called Incubi have often injured Women desiring and acting carnally with them And that certaine Devills whom the Frenchmen call Dusies do continually practise this uncleannesse and tempt others to it is affirmed by such persons and with such confidence that it were impudence as saith the same Father to deny it See August De Civitate Dei lib. 15. cap. 23. Much more concerning this may be read in Burtons Melancholy which relations whether they be true or false is not much materiall or suppose them false yet can they make nothing against us it due regard be had to that allowance which Our Church gives to these Bookes Apocrypha DIALOGUE Minist On the first of October another lying fable is appointed to bee read how Tobie being about to send his Sonne Tobias to Rages in Media for a Wife did bid him goe and looke for a man to goe with him and that he went and found an Angell and brought him to his Father who promised to give the Angell wages and agreed with him what he should have by the day and sent him with his sonne and his dog ANSWER Had old Tobie knowne
him to bee an Angell it is like enough he would have demeaned himselfe otherwise but taking him to be a man as he seemed hee was more honest than to set him a worke for nothing Nor in case this story were as true as could be were it more absurd for old Tobie to offer this Angell wages whilst he knew him not than it was for Gideon to present an Angell with a Kid or for Lot to afford the Angels lodging or for Manoah to dresse a Kid likewise that the Angell might eate For Manoah saith the Scripture knew not that he was an Angell Iudges 13.16 And as for the dog going with them it is an usuall thing for a dogge to runne abroad with his Master and I pray quarrell not with him for feare hee bites you Little reason is there that you should bee troubled to see a man with a dogge at his heeles except he were going into a Church But if you be of the Packe of Praecisians you care as little to exclude your dogge from thence as you doe to shut out your owne irreverence And yet Iacob could say Gen. 28.17 How dreadfull is this place surely it is no other than the house of God and the gate of Heaven The Lord also saith Levit. 19.30 Ye shall observe my Sabbaths and reverence my Sanctuary And in the Prophet Malachie Mal. 1.6 If I saith the Lord be a Father where is my honour If I be a Master where is my Feare And in the Gospell Mat. 21.13 Luke 19.46 It is written saith Christ that my House shall bee called the house of prayer but yee have made it a denne of Theeves Thus t was then And I would to God it could not in some sort bee as truely said that Gods House is by many made no better still than a denne of Theeves wherein they rob him of his service and are not against the respect which is done there to themselves giving none at all to him before whom they cannot bee too reverent but should bow which we commonly reade Worship fall downe and kneell Psal 95.6 as the Psalmist speaketh Nor doth Saint Paul but say 1 Cor. 11 22. That the Corinthians despised the Church of God for which hee praysed them not And as for reverence to bee done to the Lord of Heaven and Earth the same Apostle instructs the Hebrewes thus Wherefore saith he Heb. 12.28,29 Wee having received a kingdome which cannot be shaken let us have grace whereby wee may serve God acceptablie with reverence and a godly feare For our GOD is a consuming fire All which Scriptures mentioning these things are quoted in the Margent DIALOGUE Minist On the third of October another lying fable is appointed to be read how Tobias being come from Rages did call the Angell unto him and bade him take a servant and two Camels and goe to Rages for mony and that the Angell went and carried writings which he delivered to Gabael who brought bags of mony sealed up which he delivered to the Angell ANSWER Her 's still great noise and little Wooll much spoken but to little purpose as in the former answers hath beene already shewed DIALOGUE Gent. O horrible how have the Bishops deluded King Edward the sixt Queene Elizabeth King James and Our gracious King Charles and the whole estate and made them beleeve that there was nothing in the service Booke contrary to Gods Word God Almighty deliver us from them ANSWER You talke you know not what for that the Bishops have not deluded the state nor those Princes which you speake of appeares First by the Martyrdome of those worthy Bishops which suffered in the dayes of Queene Mary Secondly by the conference holden at Hampton Court in the beginning of King Iames his Raigne who as you know was a Prince so well accomplished in learning and particularly in Divinity that if they would they could not have captivated his judgment and skill as in that conference is most apparent His wise Nobles saw it well enough For being present and observing all passages they were perswaded that His Majesty spoke by inspiration And thirdly that they went not about to delude him appeares by that which they said throughout the whole conference and especially by the faire dealing with His Majestie about particular absolution and private Baptisme DIALOGUE Gent. Now that you have shewed me the blasphemies and lying fables shew also what are the Popish errours that are in it and first tell me whether the Service Booke doth command that all both Ministers and people shall bow their bodies when the Name Jesus is read Minist The Bishops only without any warrant from God but from the Pope Gent. I have read that the Name Jesus was a common name among the Jewes was it so Minist Yes Syrach of Jerusalem had a son whose name was Iesus Eccl. 50.23 Also Ioshua the son of Nun was called Iesus Acts 7.57 and one of Saint Pauls fellow Labourers was called Iesus Col. 4 11. Gent. Why doe the Bishops make an Idoll of the name Jesus by causing men to bow their bodies and to put off their hat when it is read Min. Because they mistake the Word of God where it is written that at the name of Iesus every knee shall bow both of things in Heaven of things on earth and of things under the earth Phil. 2.10 Gent. What is the name of Jesus Min. As by the name of our gracious King Charles is meant not the name Charles which is a common name but the authority and power that God hath given him over all people within his owne dominions as when men are prest to the Kings service they are prest in the Kings name that is by vertue of authority and power from the King even so as by the name of K. Charles is meant his authority and power c. So by the name of Iesus ia meant the authority and power that God hath given him over all things in Heaven and in Earth and under the Earth Gent. What is meant by things in Heaven Min. By things in Heaven are meant the holy Angels and soules of the faithfull that have no knees Gent. What is meant by things on Earth Min. By things on Earth are meant all mankinde living on earth whether they be Elect or Reprobate Gâ—nt What is meant by things under the Earth Min. By things under the Earth are meant the Devils and damned soules in hell Gent. What is meant by bowing of the knee Min. By bowing of the knee is meant subjection Isa 45.23 and not bowing of the body when the name Jesus is read as Pope Anastatius did command Anno 404. Gent. What is meant by bowing of every knee of things in Heaven of things on earth and of things under the earth Min. Thereby is meant that all the holy Angels and Saints in Heaven and all mankinde on earth and all the Devils and damned soules in hell shall submit themselves to
Scriptures they give us notice of some who in the latter daies should perish in the gainsaying of Corah as well as of some who should be led with the errour of Balaam for reward See S. Judes Epist vers 11. Look well about you and take heed how you strike an Angel else may chance to stand against you whilest you ride on the beast and be as loath to loose the rewards of your good Masters and Dames as was Balaam to loose the rewards of the King of Moab For the Pope may be Antichrist though Bishops be upheld they were never limbs of that man of Sinne as Bishops but as Popish whilest they swore subjection unto him whilest they defended him whilest they worshipped him above all that is called God and extorted this homage from others But shall they therefore which defie him resist trample upon him spend their lives and labours in opposing of him be necessarily still in the same condition because they are Bishops a foolish argument and he were a senceles man that should subscribe it But shall I tell you there were many Kings and Princes that gave their strength and power to the Beast but are now revolted from him are they not therefore Kings and Princes still Yes sure their calling is not lost they are Kings and Princes still although not Antichristian Kings and Princes England was once termed the Popes Asse but hath long since shaked off that yoak and abolished the Popes tyranny is it not therefore England still Or to speak of what was late The Princes Peers and Magistrates of England in Queen Maries daies were shoulders and armes of Antichrist their calling is still the same and must still be retained notwithstanding then they went the wrong way in it The like is to be said of Bishops in regard of their order which in it selfe is as firm strong and sound as ever notwithstanding what you or any man else may urge to the contrary If you were not a man of faction but would deale fairly in this busines you should not plead for parity or goe about to destroy the government of Gods Church by Bishops but labour to retain the Primitive form which consistteth not in the abolishing of Bishops and striving to make all Pastours equall but in the restoring of Presbyteries by joyning with the Bishops deserving honest and able * See for this Mr. Thorndikes book of the primitive Government of Churches Presbyters not Lay-elders but learned Ministers In a word there is one thing more which before I goe further must be rememhred For you tell us that in the latter end of Queene Elizabeths raigne when she began to be sickly and not like to live long then Doctour Bancroft Lord Bishop of London knowing that King James was to succeed her and fearing that his Majesty would reforme things amisse in the publike worship and service of God and in the Government of the Church did License a Booke written by a Jesuite that he kept in his house wherein it was written that it was in the Popes power as a gift appropriate to Saint Peters chaire to depose the Kings of England and to give authority to the People to elect choose and set up another Whereto I answer that in this you doe but cast durt in the face of the dead For that which you here mention is but what was objected in the Conference at Hampton Court by Doctour Reynolds and openly proved then in presence of his Majesty which you speak of to be but a false aspersion by which the Bishop was injured and standered Wherefore you doe ill to revive it now for the incensing of the people to the more malice who are already too eager to inveigh against Bishops For I verily thinke that never since the times of Christ and his Apostles were Bishops in such hatred nor had in such contempt as now I wonder that they goe not about likewise to cry down a standing Ministrie for personall offenders may as well countenance the abolishing of the one as of the other And indeed it is in a manner come even to that too amongst some furious and fanaticke spitits But the God of Heaven put a right end to these busie stirrs lest all at the last be brought to ruine Let the fiercenesse of those Opposites who cry Downe with them downe with them even to the ground turn to thy praise ô blessed Lord yea the fiercenesse of them who are thus furious doe thou restrain and bring honour to thy name out of this dishonour and good to thy Church out of this evill It is thine owne cause ô God arise therefore and defend it in spight of all that shall oppose it And thus I am come almost to the end of your dowty Dialogue a little more will bring me to it DIALOGUE Gent. There was a little Booke written of late and dedicated to the Mouse of Parliament that had most of these things in it that you have spoken of concerning the Service-booke and the Bishops Min. There was so but the Authour thereof is much grieved every time that he doth thinke upon it because it was dispersed without his consent and printed false by putting in and leaving out of words so as it was not fit to be presented to the House of Parliament ANSWER Great pitty sure to see so worthy a worke defaced especially being intended for the view of the high Court of Parliament But grieve not at it though you sometimes chance to thinke upon it for you make amends for all in this most learned and through-paced Dialogue which is instar omnium and a great deale fitter for the Parliament then that little Booke you speake of Aquila non capit Muscas Parliaments meddle with great matters Let little Bookes therefore goe and thinke your selfe better with this great volume of almost twenty leaves in Quarto which the Parliament when it hath nothing else to doe will read and relish as well as it can This is enough to comfort you you may by no meanes desire more except you had written to better purpose DIALOGUE Gent. It made mention of Judgements c. ANSWER Here you come in with a diâ—course out of your little Booke of some fearefull Judgements shewed on Churches by Thunder and Lightning in Service time and you mention chiefly two the one on the Parish Church of Whitcomb in Devonshire upon the 21 day of October 1638. the other on the Parish Church of Anthony in Cornwell upon Whitsunday 1640. when the people were kneeling at the Communion which fell upon those places to shew that God is not pleased but much offended with the publike Worship and Service which is prescribed unto his holy Majesty in our Service-booke Thus saith your Dialogue pag. 32. 35. and 37. But what saith the Apostle O how unsearchable are Gods Judgements and his wayes past finding out And verily we thank God our Service booke is clearely proved to be of another nature then to offend the diyine
of the Prophet Mich For in Mic. 5.2 we read that Bethlem was the least Minima existendo in ducibus Jehudae and yet in Matth. 2.6 we finde it turned Thou Bethlem not the least the one regarding the quantity of the place the other the dignity So in this of the Psalmist They were not obedient is true if it be applyed to Pharoah and the Aegyptians although not of such an exact truth as the very letter of the originall verity may import by referring the speech to Moses and Aaron as the most doe or to the Signes wrought in Aegypt as Junius doth For then the righter reading is They were not disobedient So that you see both upon what ground this reading standeth and upon what ground it may be altered if authority think fitting so to doe unto whom I leave it DIALOGUE Gent. You said that the service-Service-book doth pervert the meaning of Christ in diverse places of the Revelation I pray you shew me some of those places Min. The fourteenth Chapter is appointed to be read on Childermasse day after a Popish manner for an Epistle of purpose to pervert the meaning of Christ ANSWER What an uncharitable and a rash accusation have we here I think that unlesse the Devill himself should interpret intentions a worse interpretation could seldome have been hatched DIALOGUE Gen What was the meaning of Christ in that Chapter Min. The meaning of Christ in that Chapter was and now is to shew that in time of greatest persecutions when the heathen persecuting Emperours and after them the Popes did rage most against the Christian Religion and professours thereof Christ had his * In his Church I think you mean else there will be scarce sence in the words Church though invisible 144000. preserved by him and kept chaste and undefiled * This with I think you meant from with spirituall fornication of Idolatry ANSWER These 144000 were the particular true members of the Church militant in the daies of Antichrist set down in a mysterious number not easie to be understood and were without question that seed of the woman mentioned chap. 12.17 with whom the Beast should make war chap. 13.7 yea these were all those faithfull people of God who from the beginning of Antichrists reign which began about the year of our Lord 606 as is not improbable professed the truth even untill the daies of the Reformation of the Church afterwards mentioned at which time these first fruits day by day were more more increased yea these being contemporary with the beast do plainly teach that God had many thousands of his true worshippers even in the darkest daies of the great Antichrist when there seemed very few or none remaining For the Papacy creeping in was like a botch or filthy soare by which the faire face of the woman in Chapter the twelfth was over spread The heathen persecuting Emperours were before this even whilest the said woman glorious in the Primitive times was cloathed with the Sunne Crowned with a Crown of twelve Stars and trampled the Moon under her feet Nor doth this but likewise seem to be parallell to those dayes of Elijah when there were 7000 scattered throughout the tribes of Israel who were unknown For so in these times there were many thousands some in one Country some in another who did distaste the Idolatries Superstitions of Rome and with these the Lamb was present Wherefore from hence we may easily give answer to that question which the Papists to no purpose have often urged again us saying Where was your Church before Luther It was amongst them like an handfull of wheat in a Mountain of chaffe For this place as in the 12 chapt before teacheth that the Church hath had her latency and yet was not extinguished no more then the Sunne when he is hid by the covering of some darke or thick cloud For look by how much the want of sincerity and increase of the Popes usurped tyranny prevailed by so much was the Orthodox Church being true professours of the primitive purity obscured and in respect of a greater multitude so suppressed and clouded over that a man would think there were scarce any such to be found at all But true it is they were but respectively invisible and therefore persecuted by the Popish faction through whom their faith was not seldome sealed with blessed martyrdome And this chiefely is all that is meant by the latency of the true Church and flying of the woman into the wildernesse DIALOGUE Gent. How is the meaning of Christ perverted Min. By misapplying that to Children slain by Herod which was written of Christians persecuted and slain by the heathen persecuting Emperours and Popes Gent. Why doth the Pope pervert the meaning of Christ by misapplying that to the Children slain by Herod which was written of Christ and his Church persecuted by the heathen Emperours and the Popes Min. The Pope and so many of our Lord Bishops as are popish doe pervert the meanning of Christ by causing that chapter to be read on Childermasse day of purpose to keep weak Christians in blindnes so as they shall not be able to give an answer to the Papists when they shall aske them where their Religion and Church was an hundred years a goe before Martin Luthers time ANSWER Here 's still more of your little charity but me thinks you rather might have said that as 144000. were seen standing with the Lamb upon mount Sion so the blessed Innocents as on this day murthered by cruell Herod were witnesses to the Lamb not by speaking but by suffering for Christ and so both his name and his Fathers name were written in their foreheads and their voice was like the sound of many waters and as the voice of a great thunder because in Rama was there a voice heard lamentation weeping and great mourning and their crying was a song a dolefull ditty to their Parents eare Rachel weeping for her Children and would not be comforted because they were not but yet a pleasant and pretious ditty in Gods eare so sweet as the voyce of Harpers harping with their harps Nor was this their sighing but as a new song because they were the first fruits of Martyrs unto God They may be also said to follow the Lamb whithersoever be went Cant. 5.10 because as the Lamb was white and ruddy so they were white in their innocency being Virgins in their chastity without any guile in their mouth or guile in their life but in respect of their blood-shed for the Lamb they were bloody red and bleeding So then you see that although the Epistle was Historically true in what was afterwards as in the former answer I have explained yet fit to be read on that day which you call Childermasse day in allusion to what was then DIALOGUE Gent. What other meaning had Christ in that Chapter Min. His meaning was to shew that in his good time he would give a free passage and good
tribe of thine inheritance and mount Sion wherein thou hast dwelt Lift up thy feet that thou maist utterly destroy every enemy which hath done evill in thy Sanctuary Thine adversaries roare in the middest of thy Congregations and set up their Banners for tokens He that hewed timber afore out of the thick trees was known to bring it to an excellent worke But now they breake down all the carved worke thereof with axes and hammers All which being spoken by a man after Gods own heart is of current weight and without exception I may therefore turn againe now to follow what is next in the Dialogue And that which is next is about the order prescribed by the Church in the Visitation of the sick in which because you have some exceptions the same with what we have heard from you already in certain other passages shall not here be again repeated DIALOGUE Gent. What form of Prayer doth the service-Service-book prescribe for sicke persons Min. It prescribeth no form to be used in the Church Gent. What then Min. The Minister must go to their houses and salute them as the Masse-Priest doth saying Peace be to this house and to all that dwell in it and when he is come where the sick person is he must kneele kc. ANSWER And why I pray doe you quarrell with this Christ taught his Disciples so to salute the house into which they entred Math 10.12,13 and Luk. 10.5,6,7 And may not the Ministers since those times doe the like but be blamed for their labours You fight with your own shaddow and quarrell without a cause as is most apparent There be six duties of charity of which our Saviour will speak at the latter day and to come and visite the fick is one of them Math. 25.35,36 Nor is it in the Minister but even a work also of his office And therefore being sent for he commeth to pray with instruct comfort and strengthen the sick party For Is any man sick among you let him call for the Elders of the Church and let them pray over him Jam. 5.14 This order then is not without a scripture rule But you have a further quarrell and that 's against our absolving the sick person from all his sinnes in the name of the Father Sonne and Holy Ghost Why man if it be done in the name of the blessed Trinity it is not by any primary or originall power that is in our selves For the Bishops and Pastours of the Church doe not forgive sinne by any absolute power of their own for so only Christ their Master forgiveth sinnes but ministerially as the servants of Christ and stewards to whose fidelity their Lord and Master hath committed his Keyes If you aske me how Christ came by this power seeing none can forgive sinnes but God I answer first that he had it by Commission from God it was a power given him by his Father and so we reade in Joh. 20.21 Secondly he had it through the Union of the God-head and Manhood into one person For though it be true that as he was God he had it of himselfe yet not so as he was Man For as he was Man he had it by virtue of the Union from God Now this he transfers further Peter had a promise that the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven should be given but this promise was not accomplished untill afterwards not untill the day of Christs Resurrection whereupon we reade in as plain words as may be That the same day at night which was the first day of the weeke and when the doores were shut where the Disciples were assembled for feare of the Jews came Jesus and stood in the midst and said unto them Peace be unto you And when he had so said he shewed unto them his hands and his sides Then were the Disciples glad when they had seen the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again Peace be unto you As my Father sent me so send I you And when he had said that he breathed on them and said unto them receive the holy Ghost Whosoevers sinnes yee remit they are remetted unto them and whosoevers sâ—nnes ye retaine they are retained Joh. 20.19,20,21,22,23 When this promise was made to Peter although spoken to him in particular yet not with an intent to invest him solely in the thing promised as even the sequel and accomplishment thereof fully proveth Howbeit because he by his Confession gave answere for the rest and was the speaker for them when Christ said But whom say ye that I am therefore doth Christ direct his speech to him againe in particular who as he spake for them all so he is promised the Keyes in the behalfe of them all See Mat. 16.15,16,17.18,19 This then sheweth that S Peter was indued with no more power then the rest of the Apostles and therefore the Pope can claime no more then another Bishop and in that regard our Ordination is lawfull and right valid and firme although we goe not over to Rome to fetch it For so long as we have Bishops of our owne consecrated and installed into their Office as Bishops alwayes have been there is no doubt or scruple to be made Knowing therefore that when we take Ordination we also receive an holy and Ghostly authorioy not only in having the word of Reconciliation and dispensation of the Sacraments committed unto us but also of binding and loosing or of remitting and retaining sinnes we may not suffer our Church to be dâ—famed nor the Ministers thereof to be accounted Antichristian For hath our Saviour said Whose sinnes yee remit they are remitted and whose sinnes yee retain they are retained and shall any mortall man deny it His words are not Whose sinnes yee signifie to be remitted but Whose sinnes yee remit which the Author of the Practice of Piety no Papist sure hath well observed Nor is the same but granted by a distinction put between declare and pronounce For to declare is chiefly to shew Gods goodnesse towards penitent sinners which every good Christian may doe when he sees occasion for the comfort of his brother according to the truth of Gods gratious promises but to pronounce is to give sentence as a Judge in the name of him who hath the authority primarily in himselfe You speak of the key of Knowledge and explaine it well enough but that is not the sole key of binding and loosing and therefore not a thing which comes fully home to the purpose Whensoever therefore any sick person or burthened sinner shall unbosome himselfe to one of Gods ministers and shall heare him pronounce thus By the authority which Christ hath committed to me I doe absolve thee from all thy sinnes in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost then may the said Sinner rest assured that his sinnes are forgiven him and that God doth ratifie in Heaven what his Priest pronounceth on Earth The like may be said of one who for the present sees
Christians of the Primitive Church ANSWER The errour of Transubstantiation we detest as much as you but may not therefore fall in with you in your irreverence If the King offer us his hand to kisse we take it upon our knees How much more when the King of Heaven gives us his sonne in these pledges on whom wee feede in our hearts by Faith with Thanksgiving Another reason is because it is received in Prayer and if men will be ruled by reason they will not when they are to petition the King of Kings omit such a gesture of humility as kneeling is being the most sutable for a man at his prayers and for this cause we kneele at the Communions receiving whereat wee both lift up thankfull hearts unto God for the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ as also begge of God that by the merits thereof our bodies and soules may be preserved to everlasting life It would trouble you sure to derive our kneeling from the errour of Transubstantiation and therefore to no purpose doe you come in with the name of Pope Honorius and tell us of what was hatched at the Councell of Lateran If you were acquainted with Tertullians accipere reservare you would be ashamed to say that Pope Honorius was the first that brought in kneeling Adoration of the Host was indeed brought in by him but not kneeling without such adoration in the act of receiving for they kneeled at the Sacrament in Tertullians time and hee lived betimes and was flourishing about the yeare of our Lord 200. which was 1020. yeares before the Councell of Lateran But you thinke it a great matter I perceive to set up a Shaw-foule to scare a foole yet men of understanding will find you out To ollow on therfore that of Tertul. In the Primitive times were times of persecution when the christians could not meet so often as they would for feare of troubles they had also their Station dayes on which it was not lawfull to worship kneeling In the first case they did accipere reservare receive this Sacrament from the hands of the Priest at Church in severall portions and take it home and eate it there at such times as they thought it fit for their ghostly comfort that they might be sure to have it for their last Viaticum at the approach of sudden and unexpected danger but did not alwayes so for that were to overthrow the nature of the holy Supper and make the Communion to become a private eating And secondly on the dayes of station when they might not kneele they rather chose to forbeare the receiving and partaking of the holy Sacrament than to take it standing Tertullian therefore wisheth them to come though they might not kneele and take it standing at the Altar from whence they might bee suffered to carry it home and eate it at their owne houses kneeling The Leper which came to Christ as Saint Marke reports he kneeled and as St. Luke he fell on his face teaching us in prayer to fall down and kneele before the Lord our Maker He that worships God irreverently shewes himselfe not a Christian but a Manichee who thought God made the soule but not the body It is recorded of the Heathen that before they began their Sacrifices the Priest first beheld the people round about him and demanded 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Who is here who is here 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 say the people againe meaning A company of good folkes Intimating hereby that if there were any there guiltie to themselves of any foule offence they should depart as unworthy the sight of those rites or mysteries of their religion which were then to bee performed And yet because they used to sit at their Sacrifices Tertullian blamed them Ter. lib. de Orâ—t cap 12. For esteeming them to bee Gods whom they worshipped they ought to shew more reverence than to sit before them whom they thought to bee Gods and thereupon inferreth Quanto magis sub conspectu Dei vivi Angelo adhuc orationis astante factum istud irreligiosissimum est Meaning that if it were irreligious for them to sit before their false Gods seeing they esteemed them for true ones it would be more irreligious for us to doe the like before the true God indeed But you say that the Apostles did not kneele when Christ Himselfe delivered the Bread unto them I answer that if this be a good argument then we should receive in no place but in an upper Chamber have no more company but twelve no women but men and take it at no time but after Supper al which we know is otherwise throughout the whole Christian world it being in the Churches power to alter matters of circumstance although she may not alter any matter of the essence or substance of either this or the other Sacrament The rule which we find in Scripture is 1 Cor. 14 40. that all things bee done decently and in order And without question what is reputed enough decently and orderly done at some time and place and upon some occasion is not so at another time and place where no like occasion is we doe not therefore make our selves wiser than Christ and his Apostles but follow the rule which his word affordeth So then if they sat when they received most like it was because they sat down to supper and were not yet risen from the Table nor did they know what their Master was about to do it was more than ever he did before They might perhaps be therefore lesse orderly than otherwise they would have beene And yet that they tooke it irreverently is no where manifest neither that their sitting was like your fashion of sitting but after another manner as differing from your sitting as kneeling is from standing Or however this is certaine that things were not brought into order but by degrees Saint Paul had else never said it that other things he would put in order when he came 1 Cor. 11.34 I tye you then still to Scripture For though the Kings Daughter be All glorious within Yet her cloathing is of wrought Gold Psal 45.13,14 so saith the Psalmist in the 45. Psalme at the 13. verse And whereas you terrifie us with the noise of Canons when you know how to alledge them to better purpose wee shall be willing to heare you For to urge Canons that were against Canons that are is nothing for you It shewes indeed your factious zeale in the way of Shismaticks and the desire that you have to separate from us although wee care as little for the Pope as you But because you talke of ancient Canons I will afford you one to your little comfort namely That with Heretikes or Shismatickes wee ought not to pray which Canon you may reade in the Code of Canons For the Universall Church authorized by the Emperour Iustinian And that you may the sooner finde it I direct you to the hundred and seven and
thirtieth Canon of the same Booke or to the three and thirtieth Canon of the Councell of Laodicea which was celebrated in the yeare of our LORD GOD 364. as Iustellus writeth DIALOGUE Gent. What other errour doe you find to be in the Service-Booke Min. The interrupting of the Minister by the Clarke and the whole Congregation is a foule errour and such an error and confusion as doth much offend God and that therefore many are unwilling to come into the Church till the Service be all read ANSWER I doubt me you are none of those who will be so diligent as to reade the whole Service your pretended errours and dislikes which you here lay downe in this Dialogue are cause enough to make me think so And therefore they of your Parish had need to come betimes to Church if they meane to know your Text or heare any more than a peece of your Sermon except you doe as no few of your Sect trifle away a great deale of time in vaine repetitions and idle tautologies in some prayer of your own which our Saviour Himselfe likens to the practice of the Heathen and calls no better than much babling DIALOGUE Gent. How doe they interrupt the Minister Minist By rehearsing his words with a loud voyce and by taking words out of his mouth and by mingling their prayers with his ANSWER This may be answered out of Doctor Boys whose words be these I am occasioned saith he in this place justly to defend the peoples answering the Minister aloud in the Church The beginning of which interlocutory passages is ascribed by Platina to Damasus Bishop of Rome by Theodoret to Diodorus Bishop of Antioch by Walfridus Strabo to Saint Ambrose Bishop of Millane all which lived 1100 yeares before the Church was acquainted with any French fashions and yet Basil Epist 63. alleadgeth that the Churches of Aegypt Lybia Thebes Palestina Phoenicians Syrians Mesopotamians used it long before Socrates and Strabo writ that Ignatius a Scholler unto Christs owne Schollers is thought to be the first Author hereof If any man shall expect greater antiquity and authority we can fetch this order even from the Quire of Heaven I saw the Lord said Esay Esay 6.3 set on an high Throne the Seraphims stood upon it and one cried to another saying Holy holy holy Lord God of Hosts all the World is full of His glory Esay 6.3 Blessed spirits in praising God answer one another interchangeably though unhappie scornefull spirits unmannerly tearme this custome Tossing of Service an interrupting of the Minister a foule errour yea such an errour and confusion as doth much offend God DIALOGUE Minist The Minister when he prayeth is the mouth of the people speaking to God for them therefore they ought to bee silent till he hath done speaking and then to say Amen 1 Cor. 14.16 and not to interrupt him by rehearsing every word after him as in the confession of sinne when the Minister saith Almighty and most mercifull Father we have erred and strayed out of thy wayes like lost sheepe and in the Letany when he saith ô God the Father of Heaven have mercy upon us miserable sinners The Minister must stop and be silent till the Clarke and people have with a loud voyce rehearsed every word after him in which time it is impossible for the Minister to keep idle and by-thoughts from comming into his minde ANSWER If it be so with you that idle and by-thoughts will not be kept from comming into your mind pray to God to settle you better and bee not so rash as to measure other mens corne by your owne Bushell Saint Ambrose tells us that in his times the Church resounded againe with the responds of Men Women and Children like to the Sea with its beating waves or like to the rushing of many waters Thus in the Latine Church And in the Greeke Church Saint Basil is witnesse that the voyce of their prayers and Responds was like the noise of waters beating against the Rockes The patterne whereof seemes to be in Revel 14.2 besides what was before out of Esay 6.3 This is therefore all that I may yeeld you viz. that in every part of the service it is not requisite that it should be so For in many of the Prayers the people are to be silent and have no more to doe with an open and loud voyce than to say Amen But then again when occasion is offered I must say unto them as David did O praise our God yee people and make the voyce of his praise to bee heard Psalm 66.7 Or as it is in another Psalme Psal 95.1 O come let us sing unto the Lord let us make a joyfull noise to the Rocke of our salvation Or as in another Psal 107.31.32 ô that men would praise the Lord for his goodnesse and for his wonderfull works to the children of men Let them exalt him also in the Congregation of the people and praise him in the assembly of the Elders And in a word as for those times in which by the Apostles warrant they are to say Amen at the end of the Ministers prayer it was not without due care observed in the ancient times Saint Paul mentions it in the place alledged by you 1 Cor. 14.16 And as Saint Hierome writes it was the praise of the Primitive Church That their Amen was like a clap of thunder and their Halleluja as the roring of the Sea DIALOGUE Minist Also when hee prayeth for the King saying Lord save the King they interrupt him by mingling their prayer with his saying And mercifully heare us when we call upon thee The Minister being interrupted and put out in praying for the King doth pray for Ministers saying Indue thy Ministers with righteousnesse they doe then also interrupt him by mingling their prayers with his saying And make thy people joyfull ANSWER This is strange that you dare dally thus These Suffrages at which you kick with scorne are answerable to that prayer of David in the hundred and two and thirtieth Psalm where hee prayes for the Prince Priests and People orderly For the Prince Lord remember David For the Priests Let thy Priests be cloathed with righteousnesse For the People Let thy Saints sing with joyfulnesse So we in like manner Lord save thy King Indue thy Ministers with righteousnesse And make thy chosen people joyfull This also justifies our order in praying for the King first for the Clergie next and for the Laity last of all in our well composed Letany with which you quarrell next But had your quarrell been with the mattter of it as with the manner I should have said as worthy Hooker did What one petition is there found in the whole Letany whereof we shall ever be able at any time to say That no man living needeth the grace or benefit therein craved at Gods hands And a little before It now remaineth saith he a work the absolute perfection whereof upbraydeth with error or