traditum est S. Cypri ad Pompeium cont Epist. Stephan princ tradere non traditum make a Tradition of that which was not delivered to her and by some of Them then She is unfaithful to God and doth not servare depositum faithfully keepe that which is committed to her Trust. * 1 Tim. 6. 20. and 2 Tim. 1. 14. 1 Tim. 6. And her Sonnes which come to know it are not bound to obey her Tradition against the c Si ipsa Ecclesia contraria Scripturae diceret Fidelis ipsi non crederet c. Hen. a Gand. Sum. p. 1. A. 10. q. 1. And Bellarmiâ—…e himselfe that he might the more safely defend himselfe in the Cause of Traditions sayes but how truly let other men Iudge Nullam Traditionem admittimus contra Scripturam L. 4. 〈◊〉 Verbo Dei c. 3. §. Deindè commune Word of their Father For wheresoever Christ holds his peace or that his words aâ—…e not Registred I am of S. d S. Aug. Tom. 96. in 〈◊〉 Ioh. in illâ—… Ferba Multa habeo dicere sed non potestis portare modò Augustines Opinion No man may dare without rashnesse say they were these or these So there were many unwritten Words of God which were never delivered over to the Church and thereâ—…ore never made Tradition And there are many Traditions which cannot be said to be the unwritten word of God For I believe a Learned Romanist that will weigh before he speakes will not easily say That to Annoint or use Spittle in Baptisme or to use three Dippings in the use of that Sacrament or diverse other like Traditions had their Rise from any Word of God unwritten Or if he be so hardy as to say so 't is gratis dictum and he will have enough to doe to prove it So there may be an unwritten Word of God which is no Tradition And there are many Traditions which are no unwritten Word of God Therfore Tradition must be taken two wayes Either as it is the Churches Act delivering or the Thing thereby delivered and then 't is Humane Authority or from it and unable infallibly to warrant Divine Faith or to be the Object of it Or els as it is the unwritten Word of God and then where ever it can be made to appeare so 't is of divine and infallible Authority no question But then I would have A. C. consider where he is in A. C. p. 49. this Particular He tels us We must know infallibly that the Bookes of Holy Scripture are Divine and that this must be done by unwritten Tradition but so as that this Tradition is the Word of God unwritten Now let him but prove that this or any Tradition which the Church of Rome stands upon is the Word of God though unwritten and the businesse is ended But A. C. must not thinke that because the Tradition of the Church tels me these Bookes are Verbum Dei Gods A. C. p. 50. Word and that I do both honour and believe this Tradition That therefore this Tradition it selfe is Gods Word too and so absolutely sufficient and infallible to worke this Beliefe in me Therefore for ought A. C. hath yet added we must on with our Inquiry after this great Businesse and most necessary Truth 2. For the second way of proving That Scripture should be fully and sufficiently knowne as by Divine and Infallible Testimony Lumine proprio by the resplendency of that Light which it hath in it selfe onely and by the witnesse that it can so give to it selfe I could never yet see cause to allow a Hook l. 2. §. 4 For as there is no place in Scripture that tels us Such Books containing such and such Particulars are the Canon and infallible Will and Word of God So if there were any such place that were no sufficient proofe For a man may justly aske another Booke to beare witnesse of that and againe of that another and where ever it were written in Scripture that must be a part of the Whole And no created thing can alone give witnesse to it selfe and make it evident nor one part testifie for another and satisfie where Reason will but offer to contest Except those Principles onely of Naturall knowledge which appeare manifest by intuitive light of understanding without any Discourse And yet they also to the weaker sort require Induction preceding Now this Inbred light of Scripture is a thing coincident with Scripture it selfe and so the Principles and the Conclusion in this kind of proofe should be entirely the same which cannot be Besides if this inward Light were so cleare how could there have beene any variety among the Ancient Believers touching the Authority of S. a Euseb. L. 2. c. 27. fine Edit Basil. 1549. Iames and S. Jude's Epistles and the b Euseb. L. 3. c. 25. Apocalyps with other Bookes which were not received for diverse yeares after the rest of the New Testament For certainly the Light which is in the Scripture was the same then which now it is And how could the Gospell of S. Bartholomew of S. Thomas and other counterfeit peeces obtaine so much credit with some as to be received into the Canon if the evidence of this Light were either Universall or Infallible of and by it selfe And this though I cannot approve yet me thinks you may and upon probable grounds at least For I hope no †Except A. C. whose boldness herein I cannot but pitie For he denies this light to the Scripture and gives it to Tradition His words are p. 52. Tradition of the Church is of a company which by its owne light shewes it selfe to bee infallibly assisted c. Romanist will deny but that there is as much light in Scripture to manifest and make ostension of it selfe to be infallibly the written Word of God as there is in any Tradition of the Church that it is Divine and infallibly the unwritten Word of God And the Scriptures saying from the mouthes of the Prophets b Isa 44. passina Thus saith the Lord and from the mouthes of the a Act. 28. 25. Apostles that the Holy Ghost spake by them are at least as able and as fit to beare witnesse to their owne Verity as the Church is to beare witnesse to her owne Traditions by bare saying they come from the Apostles And your selves would never go to the Scripture to prove that there are Traditions b 2. Thess. 2. 15. Iude vers 3. as you do if you did not thinke the Scripture as easie to be discovered by inbred light in itselfe as Traditions by their light And if this be so then it is as probable at the least which some of ours affirme That Scripture may bee knowne to bee the Word of God by the Light and Lustre which it hath in it selfe as it is which you c In your Articles delivered to D. W. to be answered And A. C. p. 52. affirme That a
and after that by Pope Stephen and after both in the first b Can. 1. Councell of Carthage yet no one word is there in that Councell which mentions this as an Error That hee thought Pope Stephen might erre in the faith while he proclaimed he did so In which though the particular Censure which he passed on Pope Stephen was erroneous for Stephen erred not in that yet the Generall which results from it namely That for all his being in the Popedome he might erre is most true 2. The second Father which Bellarmine cites is S. Ierome d Attamen scito Romanam sidem Apostolica vove laudatam ejusmodi praestigias non recipere etiamsi Angelus aliter annunciet quà m semel praedicatum est Pauli authoritate munitam non posse mutari S. Hicron L. 3. Apol. contra Ruffinum Tom. 2. Edit Paris 1534. sol 84. K. Peradventure it is here to be read jam si For so the place is more plaine and more strong but the Answer is the same His words are The Romane Faith commended by the Apostle admits not such praestigia's deceits and delusions into it though an Angell should preach it otherwise than it was preach'd at first and being armed and fenced by S. Paul's authority cannot be changed Where first I will not doubt but that S. Ierome speakes here of the Faith For the Praestigiae here mentioned are afterwards more plainely expressed For he tels us after a Deinde ut Epistolas contra te ad Orientem mitteret cauterium tibi Haereseós inureret Diceretque libros Origenis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 à te translatos simplici Ecclesiae Romanae plebi traditos ut fidei veritatem quam ab Apostolo didicerant per te perderent S. Hicron ibid. fol. 85. K. That the Bishop of Rome had sent Letters into the East and charged Heresie upon Ruffinus And farther that Origen's Books 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 were translated by him and delivered to the simple people of the Church of Rome that by his meanes they might loose the verity of the Faith which they had learned from the Apostle Therefore the Praestigiae before mentioned were the Cunning Illusions of Ruffinus putting Origen's Book under the Martyr Pamphilus his name that so he might bring in Heresie the more cunningly under a name of Credit and the more easily pervert the Peoples Faith So of the Faith he speakes And secondly I shall as easily confesse that S. Ierome's speech is most true but I cannot admit the Cardinal's sense of it For he imposes upon the word Fides For by Romana Fides the Romane Faith he will understand the Particular Church of Rome Which is as much as to say Romanos Fideles the Faithfull of that Church And that no wilie Delusions or Cousenage in matter of Faith can be imposed upon them Now hereupon I returne to that of S. Cyprian If Fides Romana must signifie Fideles Romanos why may not Perfidia before signifie Perfidos Especially since these two words are commonly used by these Writers as Termes a Qui cum Fidei dux esse non potuit perfidiae existat S. Cyprian L. 1. Epist. 7. Fidem perfidi c. Ibid. Facti sunt ex Ovibus Vulpes ex fidelibus perfidi Optatus L. 7. Quomodo iis prosit quum baptizantur Parentum Fides quorum iis non potest obesse perfidia S. Aug. Epist. 23. Quantò potiùs Fides aliena potest consulere parvulo cui sua perfidia c. S. Aug. L. 3. de lib. Arbit c. 23. Opposite And therefore by the Law of Opposition may interpret each other proportionably So with these great Masters with whom 't is almost growne to be Quod volumus rectum est what we please shall be the Authours meaning Perfidia must signifie absolutely Errour in Faith or Misbeliefe But Fides must relate to the Persons and signifie the Faithfull of the Romane Church And now I conceive my Answer will proceed with a great deale of Reason For Romana Fides the Romane Faith as it was commended by the Apostle of which S. Ierome speakes is one thing and the Particular Romane Church of which the Cardinall speakes is another The Faith indeed admits not Praestigias wilie delusions into it if it did it could not be the Whole and Vndefiled Faith of Christ which they learned from the Apostle And which is so fenced by Apostolicall Authority as that it cannot be changed though an Angell should preach the contrary But the Particular Church of Rome hath admitted Praestigias diverse crafty Conveyances into the Faith and is not fenced as the Faith it selfe is And therefore though an Angell cannot contrary that yet the bad Angell hath sowed tares in this By which meanes Romana Fides though it be now the same it was for the words of the Creed yet it is not the same for the sense of it Nor for the super and praeter-structures built upon it or joyned unto it So the Romane Faith that is the Faith which S. Paul taught the Romanes and after commended in them was all one with the Catholike Faith of Christ. For S. Paul taught no other than that One. And this one can never be changed in or from it selfe by Angell or Divell But in mens hearts it may receive a change And in particular Churches it may receive a change And in the particular Church of Rome it hath received a change And yee see S. Hierome himselfe confesses that the Pope himselfe was afraid b Ne fidei veritatem quam ab Apostolo didicerant per te perderent ut suprà ne perderent least by this Art of Ruffinus the People might loose the verity of the Faith Now that which can be lost can be changed For usually Habits begin to alter before they be quite lost And that which may be lost among the People may be lost among the Bishops and the rest of the Clergie too if they looke not to it as it seemes they after did not at Rome though then they did Nay at this time the whole Romane Church was in danger enough to swallow Origen's Booke and all the Errors in it comming under the Name of Pamphilus and so S. Ierome himselfe expresly and close upon the Place cited by Bellarmine For he desires a Muta titulum Romanam simplicitatem tanto periculo libera ibid. fol. 84. K. Ruffinus to change the Title of the Booke that Error may not be spread under the specious Name of Pamphilus and so to free from danger the Romane simplicity Where by the way Romane unerring Power now challenged and Romane simplicity then feared agree not very well together 3. The third Father alledged by Bellarmine is a Uetus Roma ab antiquis temporibus habet rectam Fidem semper eam retinet sicut decet Urbem quae toti Orbt prâ—…sidet semper de Deo integram fidem habere Greg. Naz. in Carmine de vità suà Ante medium p. 9. Edit
of the Romane Church then non sumpsit exordium no Heresie tooke its beginning there but that denyes not but that some Haereticall taint might get in there And 't is more then manifest that the most famous Haeresies in their severall Times made their aboade even at Rome And 't is observable too that Bellarmine cites nomore of Ruffinus his words then these In Ecclesiâ urbis Romae neque Haeresis ulla sumpsit exordium mos ibi servatur antiquus as if this were an entire speech whereas it comes in but as a Reason given of the speech precedent and as if Ruffinus made the Church of Rome the great observer of the Customes of the Church whereas he speaks but of one Particular Custome of Reciting the Creed before Baptisme But after all this I pray did no Heresie ever begin at Rome where did Novatianisme begin At Rome sure For a Baron To. 2. An. 254. Num. 62. Baronius b Pamel in Cyprian Epist. 41. 73. Pamelius and c Petavius in Epiphan Haeres 59. Petavius doe all dispute the Point whether that sect was denominated from Novatianus the Romane Priest or Novatus the African Bishop And they Conclude for Novatian He then that gave that Name is in all right the Founder and Rome the nest of that Heresie And there it Continued with a succession d Onuph in Notis ad Plat. in vita Cornelii of Bishops from Cornelius to Caelestine which is neare upon two hundred yeares Nay could Ruffinus himselfe be ignorant that some Haeresie began at Rome No sure For in this I must challenge him either for his weake memory or his wilfull error For Ruffinus had not only read Eusebius his History but had beene at the paines to translate him Now * Haeretici alii in morem venenatorum serpentum in Asiam Phrygiam irrepserunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quorum Dux Florinus Euseb. L. 5. cap. 14. And in Ruffinus his Translation c. 15. And then afterwards c. 19. 20. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Now this Blastus taught that God was the Author of sin Eusebius sayes plainely that some Hereticks spread their venome in Asia some in Phrygia and others grew at Rome and Florinus was the Ring-leader of them And more clearely after Irenaeus saith he directed diverse Epistles against this Florinus and his fellow Blastus and condemnes them of such Heresies as threw them and their Followers into great Impiety c. Those at Rome corrupting the sound Doctrine of the Church Therefore most manifest it is that some Heresie had its rise and beginning at Rome But to leave this slip of Ruffinus most evident it is that Ruffinus neither did nor could account the Particular Church of Rome infallible For if he had esteemed so of it he would not have dissented from it in so maine a Point as is the Canon of the Scripture as he plainely doth a Ruff. in Exposit Symb. p. 188. In which reckoning heplainly agrees with the Church of England Art 6. For reckoning up the Canonicall Bookes he most manifestly dissents from the Romane Church Therefore either Ruffinus did not think the Church of Rome was infallible or els the Church of Rome at this day reckons up more Bookes within the Canon than heretofore she did If she do then she is changed in a maine Point of Faith the Canon of Scripture and is absolutely convinced not to be infallible For if she were right in her reckoning then she is wrong now And if she be right now she was wrong then And if she do not reckon more now than she did when Ruffinus lived then he reckons fewer than she and so dissents from her which doubtlesse he durst not have done had he thought her judgement infallible Yea and he sets this marke upon his Dissent besides b Novi Veteris Testamenti Volumina c. sicut ex Patrum Monumentis accepimus Ruff. in Symb. p. 188. Et haec sunt quae Patres intra canonem concluserunt Et ex quibus Fidei nostrae Assertiones constare voluerunt Ib. p. 189. That he reckons up the Bookes of the Canon just so and no otherwise than as he received them out of the Monuments of the Forefathers And out of which the Assertions of our Faith are to be taken Last of all had this place of Ruffinus any strength for the Infallibility of the Church of Rome yet there is very little reason that the Pope and his Clergie should take any Benefit by it For S. c Si Episcopi Romani est stultè facis ab eo Exemplar Epistolae petere cui missa non est c. Vade potiùs Romane praesens apâ—… eum expostula cur tibi absenti innocenti fecerit injuriaÌ„ Primum ut non reciperâ—…t Expositionem Fidei tuae quam omnis ut scribis Italia comprobavâ—… c. Deinde ut Cauterium tibi Haerescôs dum nescis inureret S. Hicron Apol. 3. advers Ruffin fol. 85. K. Ierome tels us That when Ruffinus was angry with him for an Epistle which he writ not he plainly sent him to the Bishop of Rome and bid him expostulate with him for the Contumely put upon him in that he received not his exposition of the Faith which said He all Italy approved and in that he branded him also dùm nesciret behind his back with Heresie Now if the Pope which then was rejected this Exposition of the Creed made by Ruffinus and branded him besides with Haeresie his sentence against Ruffinus was Iust or Vnjust If Vnjust then the Pope erred about a matter of Faith and so neither He nor the Church of Rome infallible If Iust then the Church of Rome labours to defend herself by his pen which is judged Haereticall by her self So whether it were Iust or Vnjust the Church of Rome is driven to a hard strait when she must beg help of him whom she branded with Haeresie and out of that Tract which she her self rejected And so uphold her Infallibility by the Iudgement of a man who in her Iudgement had erred so foully Nor may she by any †Quum quis se vellâ—… personaâ—… tâ—…stium post publicationem repellere fuerit protestatus Si quid pro ipso dixerint iis non creditur Extra Tex ibi Gloss. c. Praesentium 31. de Testibus Law take benefit of a Testimony which her self hath defamed and protested against With these Bellarmine is pleased to name Sixe Popes which he saith are all of this Opinion But he a Bellar. L. 4. de RoÌ„ Pont. c. 4. §. Addo etiam Quae eâ—…si ab Haereticis contemnentur c. adds That these Testimonies will be contemned by the Haereticks Good words I pray I know whom the Cardinall meanes by Hereticks very well But the best is His Call cannot make them so Nor shall I easily contemne Sixe ancient Bishops of Rome concurring in Opinion if apparent verity in the thing it selfe do not
that Proposition in terminis So here the very Foundation of A. C ' s. Dilemma fals off For I say not That onely the Points of the Creed are Fundamentall whether expressed or not expressed That all of them are that I say And yet though the Foundation of his Dilemma be fallen away I will take the boldnesse to tell A. C. That if I had said That those Articles onely which are expressed in the Creed are Fundamentall it would have beene hard to have excluded the Scripture upon which the Creed it selfe in every Point is grounded For nothing is supposed to shut out its owne Foundation And if I should now say that some Articles are Fundamentall which are infolded in the Creed it would not follow that therefore some unwritten Traditions were Fundamentall Some Traditions I deny not true and firme and of great both Authority and Vse in the Church as being Apostolicall but yet not Fundamentall in the Faith And it would be a mighty large fold which should lap up Traditions within the Creed As for that Tradition That the Bookes of holy Scriptures are Divine and Infallible in every part I will handle that when I come to the proper place * §. 16. N. 1. for it F. I asked how then it happened as M. Rogers saith that the English Church is not yet resolved what is the right sense of the Article of Christs Descending into Hell B. The English Church never made doubt that § 12 I know what was the sense of that Article The words are so plaine they beare their meaning before them Shee was content to put that a Art 3. Article among those to which she requires Subscription not as doubting of the sense but to prevent the Cavils of some who had beene too busie in Crucifying that Article and in making it all one with the Article of the Crosse or but an Exposition of it And surely for my part I thinke the Church of England is better resolved of the right sense of this Article then the Church of Rome especially if shee must be tryed by her Writers as you try the Church of England by M. Rogers For you cannot agree whether this Article be a meere Tradition or whether it hath any Place of Scripture to vvarrant it a Scotus in 1. D. 11. q. 1. Scotus and b Stapleton Relect. Con. 5. q. 5. Art 1. Stapleton allow it no footing in Scripture but c Bellarm 4. de Christo. c. 6. 12. Scripturae passim hoc docent Bellarmine is resolute that this Article is every where in Scripture and d Thom. 2 â—…ae q. 1. A 9 ad 1. Thomas grants as much for the whole Creed The Church of England never doubted it and S. e S. Aug. Ep. 99. Augustine prooves it And yet againe you are different for the sense For you agree not Whether the Soule of Christ in triduo mortis in the time of his Death did go downe into Hell really and was present there or vertually and by effects only For g Tho. p. 3. q. 52. A. 2. c. per suam essentiam Thomas holds the first and h Dur in 3. d. 22. q. 3. Durand the later Then you agree not Whether the Soule of Christ did descend really and in essence into the lowest pit of Hell and Place of the Damned as i Bellar. L. 4. do Christo. c. 16. Bellarmine once held probable and prooved it or really only into that place or Region of Hell which you call Limbum Patrum and then but vertually from thence into the Lower Hell to which k Bellar. Recog p. 11. Bellarmine reduces himselfe and gives his reason because it is the l Sequuntur enim Tho. p. 3. Q. 52. A. 2. common Opinion of the Schoole Now the Church of England takes the words as they are in the Creed and believes them without farther Dispute and in that sense which the ancient Primitive Fathers of the Church agreed in And yet if any in the Church of England should not be throughly resolved in the sense of this Article Is it not as lawfull for them to say I conceive thus or thus of it yet if any other way of his Descent be found truer then this I deny it not but as yet I know no other as it was for m Non est pertinaciter asserendum quin Anima Christi per alium modum nobis ignotum potuerit descendere ad Infernum Nec nos negamus alium modum esse for sit an veriorem sed fatemur nos illum ignor arc Durand in 3. sent Dist. 22. q. 3. Nu. 9. Durand to say it and yet not impeach the Foundation of the Faith F. The Bishop said That M. Rogers was but a private man But said I if M. Rogers writing as he did by publike Authority be accounted only a private man c. B. I said truth when I said M. Rogers was a private § 13 man And I take it you will not allow every speech of every man though allowed by Authority to have his Bookes Printed to be the Doctrine of the Church of Rome * And this was an Ancient fault too for S. Augustine checks at it in his time Noli colligere calumnias ex Episcoporum scriptis sive Hillarii sive Cypriani Agrippini Primò quia hoc genus literarum ab Authoritate Canonis distinguendum est Non enim sic leguntur tanquam it a ex iis testimonium proferatur ut contrà sentire non liceat sicubi fortè aliter sentirent quà m veritas postulat S. Aug. Ep. 48. c. And yet these were farre greater men in their generations then M. Rogers was This hath beene oft complained of on both sides The imposing particular mens assertions upon the Church yet I see you meane not to leave it And surely as Controversies are now handled by some of your party at this day I may not say it is the sense of the Article in hand but I have long thought it a kinde os descent into Hell to be conversant in them I would the Authors would take heed in time and not seeke to blinde the People or cast a mist before evident Truth least it cause a finall descent to that place of Torment But since you will hold this course Stapleton was of greater note with you then M. Rogers his exposition of Notes upon the Articles of the Church of England is with us And as he so his Relection And is it the Doctrine of the Church of Rome which Stapleton affirmes †Stapl. Cont. 5. q. 5. A. 1. The Scripture is silent that Christ descended into Hell and that there is a Catholike and an Apostolike Church If it be then what will become of the Popes Supremacie over the whole Church Shall he have his Power over the Catholike Church given him expresly in Scripture in the a S. Mat. 16. 19. Keyes to enter and in b S. Ioh. 21. 15. Pasce
to feede when he is in and when he had fed to c S. Luk. 22. 35. Confirme and in all these not to erre and faile in his Ministration And is the Catholike Church in and over which he is to do all these great things quite left out of the Scripture Belike the Holy Ghost was carefull to give him his power Yes in any case but left the assigning of his great Cure the Catholike Church to Tradition And it were well for him if he could so prescribe for what he now Claymes But what if after all this M. Rogers there sayes no such thing As in truth he doth not His words are d Rogers in Art Eccle. Angl. Art 3. All Christians acknowledge He descended but in the interpretation of the Article there is not that consent that were to be wished What is this to the Church of England more then others And againe e Ibid. Till we know the native and undoubted sense of this Article is M. Rogers We the Church of England or rather his and some others Iudgement in the Church of England Now here A. C. will have somewhat againe to say though God knowes 't is to little purpose 'T is A. C. p. 47. that the Iesuite urged M. Roger's Booke because it was set out by Publike Authority And because the Booke beares the Title of the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England A. C. may undoubtedly urge M. Rogers if he please But he ought not to say that his Opinion is the Doctrine of the Church of England for neither of the Reasons by him expressed First not because his Booke was publikely allowed For many Bookes among them as well as among us have beene Printed by publike Authority as containing nothing in them contrary to Faith and good manners and yet containing many things in them of Opinion only or private Iudgement which yet is farre from the avowed Positive Doctrine of the Church the Church having as yet determined neither way by open Declaration upon the words or things controverted And this is more frequent among their Schoolemen then among any of our Controversers as is well knowne Nor secondly because his Booke beares the Title of the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England For suppose the worst and say M. Rogers thought a little too well of his owne paines and gave his Booke too high a Title is his private Iudgement therefore to be accounted the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England Surely no No more then I should say every thing said by * Angelici D. S. Tho. Summa Thomas or †Celebratissimi Patris Dom. Bonaventurae Doctoris Seraphici in 3. L. Sent. Disputata Bonaventure is Angelicall or Seraphicall Doctrine because one of these is stiled in the Church of Rome Seraphicall and the other Angelicall Doctor And yet their workes are Printed by Publike Authority and that Title given them Yea but our private Authors saith A. C. are not allowed for ought I know in such a like sorte to expresse A. C. p. 47. our Catholike Doctrine in any matter subject to Question Here are two Limitations which will goe farre to bring A. C. off whatsoever I shall say against him For first let me instance in any private man that takes as much upon him as M. Rogers doth he will say he knew it not his Assertion here being no other then for ought he knowes Secondly If he be unwilling to acknowledge so much yet he will answer 't is not just in such a like sort as M. Rogers doth it that is perhaps it is not the very Title of his Booke But well then Is there never a Private man allowed in the Church of Rome to expresse your Catholike Doctrine in any matter subject to question What not in any matter Were not Vega and Soto two private men Is it not a mâ—…tter subject to Question to great Question in these Dayes Whether a man may be certaine of his Salvation câ—…rtitudine fidei by the certainty of Faith Doth nâ—…t * Bellar. Lib. 3. de Justificat c. 1. 14. Bellarmine make it a Controversie And is it not a part of your Catholike Faith if it be determined in the †Huic Concilio Catholici omnes ingenia sua judicia sponte subjiciunt Bellar. 3. de Justif. c. 3. §. Sed Concilii Tridâ—…i Councell of Trent And yet these two great Friers of their time Dominicus Soto and Andreas Vega a Hist. Concil Trident. Lib. 2. p. 245. Edit Lat. Leidae 1622. were of contrary Opinions and both of them challenged the Decree of the Councell and so consequently your Catholike Faith to be as each of them concluded and both of them wrote Bookes to maintaine their Opinions and both of their Bookes were published by Authority And therefore I think 't is allowed in the Church of Rome to private men to expresse your Catholike Doctrine and in a matter subject to Question And therefore also if another man in the Church of England should be of a contrary Opinion to M. Rogers and declare it under the Title of the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England this were no more then Soto and Vega did in the Church of Rome And I for my part cannot but wonder A. C. should not know it A. C. p. 47. For he sayes that for ought he knowes Private men are not allowed so to expresse their Catholike Doctrine And in the same Question both Catharinus and Bellarmine b Bellar. L. 3. de Iustif. c. 3. take on them to expresse your Catholike Faith the one differing from the other almost as much as Soto and Vega and perhaps in some respect more F. But if M. Rogers be only a private man in what Book may we finde the Protestants publike Doctrine The Bishop answered That to the Booke of Articles they were all sworne B. What Was I so ignorant to say The Articles § 14 of the Church of England were the Publike Doctrine of all the Protestants Or that all Protestants were sworne to the Articles of England as this speech seems to imply Sure I was not Was not the immediate speech before of the Church of England And how comes the Subject of the Speech to be varied in the next lines Nor yet speake I this as if other Protestants did not agree with the Church of England in the chiefest Doctrines and in the maine Exceptions which they joyntly take against the Romane Church as appeares by their severall Confessions But if A. C. will say as he doth that because there was speech before of the Church of A. C. p. 47. England the Iesuite understood mee in a limited sense and meant only the Protestants of the English Church Bee it so ther 's no great harme done †And therfore A. C. needs not make such a Noise about it as he doth p. 48 but this that the Iesuite offers to enclose me too much For I did not
Tho. p. 1. q. 1. A. 5. c. yet they are in themselves much more sure and infallible then they For they proceed immediately from God that Heavenly Wisdome which being the fountaine of ours must needs infinitely precede ours both in Nature and excellence He that teacheth man knowledge shall not he know †Psal. 94. 10. Our old English Translation reads it Shall not he punish That is shall not he know when and why and how to punish Psal. 94. And therefore though wee reach not the Order of their Deductions nor can in this life come to the vision of them yet wee yeeld as full and firme Assent not onely to the Articles but to all the Things rightly deduced from them as wee doe to the most evident Principles of Naturall Reason This Assent is called Faith And Faith being of things not seene Heb. 11. Heb. 11. 1. a Sâ—…t Ratio convincens propter cam 〈◊〉 alias non crediturus tollitur 〈◊〉 siâ—…i Bâ—…l 3. D. 25. q. unic sine Non est dicendus credere cujus judicium sulagitur aut cogitur c. Stapl. Tâ—…at contra Wintaker cap. 6. p. 64. would quite loose its honour nay it selfe if it met with sufficient Grounds in Naturall Reason whereon to stay it selfe For Faith is a mixed Act of the Will and the Vnderstanding and the b Vides noâ—… sit in nobis nisi volentibus Tolâ—… in S. 〈◊〉 16. Annot. 33. Et qui voluerunt â—…runt S. Aug. Serm. 60. dâ—…rb Dom. 〈◊〉 5. Fides Actus est non schus â—…ctus sed etiam Voluntatis quae qinon potest Imo magis Voluntatis quam Intelle us quatenus illa Operationis prinâ—…ium est Assensum qui pâ—…oprie Actus fiâ—…i est sola clicit Nec ab 〈◊〉 Voluntas sed à Voluntate 〈◊〉 Actu sidei determinatur Staâ—… I. Tâ—…lic cont Whitak c. 6. p. 64. Câ—…e enim est Actus Intellectus detâ—…â—…i â—…unum ex Imperio Voluntatis 〈◊〉 2. 2. q. 4. Aâ—…c Non potest dari aliquis sidei quinunque ille sit non qui in suis Causis mediatè 〈◊〉 medâ—…e b actu Voluntatis Alm. in 3. Sâ—…t D. 24. 〈◊〉 6. Dub. 4. A 〈◊〉 Aug. sayes Fidei locum esse Cor. Tâ—… 52. in S. Ioh. Where the Heart is put to the whole soule which equally comprehends both the Will and the Vndeâ—… ing And so doth Biel also in 3. Sunt D. 25. q unic Art 1. F. Will inclines the Vnderstanding to yeeld full approbation to that whereof it sees not full proofe Not but that there is most full proofe of them but because the maine Grounds which prove them are concealed from our view and folded up in the unrevealed Counsell of God God in Christ resolving to bring mankinde to their last happinesse by Faith and not by knowledge that so the weakest among men may have their way to blessednesse open And certaine it is that many weak men believe themselves into Heaven and many over-knowing Christians loose their way thither while they will believe no more then they can clearely know In which pride and vanity of theirs they are left and have these things hid from them S. Matth. 11. S. Mat. 11. 25. Fourthly That the Credit of the Scripture the Pun. 4. Booke in which the Principles of Faith are written as of other writings also depends not upon the subservient Inducing Cause that leads us to the first knowledge of the Authour which leader here is the Church but upon the Author himself and the Opinion we have of his sufficiency which here is the Holy Spirit of God whose Pen-men the Prophets and Apostles were And therfore the Mysteries of Divinity contained in this Booke As the Incarnation of our Saviour The Resurrection of the dead and the like cannot finally bee resolved into the sole Testimony of the Church who is but a Subservient Cause to lead to the knowledge of the Authour but into the wisedome and Sufficiency of the Authour who being Omnipotent and Omniscient must needs bee Infallible Fiftly That the Assurance we have of the Pen-men of the Scriptures the Holy Prophets and Apostles Pun. 5. is as great as any can be had of any Humane Authours of like Antiquity For it is morally as evident to any Pagan that S. Matthew and S. Paul writ the Gospell and Epistles which beare their Names as that Cicero or Seneca wrote theirs But that the Apostles were divinely inspired whilst they writ them and that they are the very Word of God expressed by them this hath ever beene a matter of Faith in the Church and was so even while the Apostles themselves a The Apostles indeed they knew for they had cleare Revelation They to whom they preached might believe but they could not know without the like Revelation So S. Ioh. 19 35. He that saw knowes that he sayes true that you which saw not might believe Deus in Prophetis sic in Apostolis quos immediatè illuminabat causabat evidentiam Iaco Aimain in 3. Sent. Dis. 24. q. unic á. Conclus 6. But for the residue of men 't is no more but as Thomas hath it Oportet quod credatur Authoritati eorum quibus Revelatio facta est Tho. p. 1. q. 1. A. 8. ad 8. lived and was never a matter of Evidence and Knowledge at least as Knowledge is opposed to Faith Nor could it at any time then bee more Demonstratively prooved then now I say not scientificè not Demonstratively For were the Apostles living and should they tell us that they spake and writ the very Oracles of God yet this were but their owne Testimony of themselves and so not alone able to enforce Beliefe on others And for their Miracles though they were very Great Inducements of Beliefe yet were neither they Evident and Convincing Proofes b A on est evidens vel ista esse vera miracula vel ista fieri ad illam Veritatem comprobandam Iâ—… Almain in 3. Sent. D. 24. q. uniâ—… Concl. 6. Therefore the Miracles which Christ and his Apostles did were fully sufficient to beget Faith to assent but not Evidence to Convince alone and of themselves Both because There may bee counterfeit Miracles And because true ones are neither c Cautos nos fecit Sponsus quia Miraculis decipi non debemus S. Aug. T. 13. in S. â—…oh And he that sayes we ought not to be deceived acknowledges that we may be deceived even by Miracles And Arguments which can deceive are not sufficient to Convince Though they be sometimes too full of efficacy to pervert And so plainly Almain out of Ocham Nunquam acquiritur Evidentia per Medium quod de se generat falsum assensum sunt verum la. Alma in 3 Sent. Di. 24. q unic Conc. 6. And therfore that Learned Romane Catholik who tels us the Apostles Miracles made it evident that their doctrine was true and Divine went too farre Credible they made
And this was caused partly by my owne Backwardnesse to deale with these men whom I have ever observed to be great Pretenders for Truth and Unity but yet such as will admit neither unlesse They and their Faction may prevaile in all As if no Reformation had beene necessary And partly because there were about the same time three Conferences held with Fisher. Of these this was the Third And could not therefore conveniently come abroad into the world till the two former were ready to leade the way which till that time they were not And this is in part the Reason also why this Tract crept into the end of a larger Worke. For since that Worke contained in a manner the substance of all that passed in the two former Conferences And that this Third in divers points concurred with them and depended on them I could not thinke it Substantive enough to stand alone But besides this Affinity betweene the Conferences I was willing to have it passe as silently as it might at the end of another Worke and so perhaps little to be looked after because I could not hold it worthy nor can I yet of that Great Duty and Service which I owe to my Deare Mother the Church of England There is a cause also why it lookes now abroad againe with Alteration and Addition And 't is fit I should give your Majesty an Account of that too This Tract was first printed in the yeare 1624. And in the yeare 1626. another Jesuite or the same under the name of A. C. printed a Relation of this Conference and therein tooke Exceptions to some Particulars and endeavoured to Confute some Things deliver'd therein by me Now being in yeares and unwilling to dye in the Jesuites debt I have in this Second Edition done as much for him and somewhat more For he did but skip up and downe and labour to pick a hole here and there where he thought he might fasten and where it was too hard for him let it alone But I have gone thorough with him And I hope given him a full Confutation or at least such a Bone to gnaw as may shake his teeth if he looke not to it And of my Addition to this Discourse this is the Cause But of my Alteration of some things in it this A. C. his Curiosity to winnow me made me in a more curious manner fall to sifting of my selfe and that which had formerly past my Penne. And though I blesse God for it I found no cause to alter anything that belonged either to the Substance or Course of the Conference Yet somewhat I did finde which needed better and cleerer expression And that I have altered well knowing I must expect Curious Observers on all hands Now Why this Additionall Answer to the Relation of A. C. came no sooner forth hath a Cause too and I shall truly represent it A. C. his Relation of the Conference was set out 1626. I knew not of it in some yeares after For it was printed among divers other things of like nature either by M. Fisher himselfe or his friend A. C. When I saw it I read it over carefully and found myselfe not a little wrong'd in it but the Church of England and indeed the Cause of Religion much more I was before this time by Your Majesties Great Grace and undeserved favour made Deane of Your Majesties Chappell Royall and a Counsellor of State and hereby as the Occasions of those times were made too much a Stranger to my Bookes Yet for all my Busie Imployments it was still in my Thoughts to give A. C. an Answer But then I fell into a most dangerous Feaver And though it pleased God beyond all hope to restore mee to health yet long I was before I recover'd such strength as might enable mee to undertake such a Service And since that time how I have beene detained and in a manner forced upon other many various and Great Occasions your Majesty knowes best And how of late I have beene used by the Scandalous and Scurrilous Pennes of some bitter men whom I heartily beseech God to forgive the world knowes Little Leasure and lesse Encouragement given me to Answer a Iesuite or set upon other Services while I am under the Prophets affliction Psal. Psal. 50. 19 20 50. betweene the Mouth that speakes wickednesse and the tongue that sets forth deceite and slander mee as thicke as if I were not their owne Mothers Sonne In the midst of these Libellous out-cries against me some Divines of great Note and Worth in the Church came to mee One by One and no One knowing of the Others Comming as to mee they protested and perswaded with me to Reprint this Conference in my owne Name This they thought would vindicate my Reputation were it generally knowne to be mine I Confesse I looked round about these Men and their Motion And at last my Thoughts working much upon themselves I began to perswade my selfe that I had beene too long diverted from this necessary Worke. And that perhaps there might be In voce hominum Tuba Dei in the still voice of men the Loud Trumpet of God which sounds many wayes sometimes to the eares and sometimes to the hearts of men and by meanes which they thinke not of And as * S. Aug. Serm. 63. De Diversis c. 10. Hee speakes of Christ disputing in the Temple with the Elders of the Iewes And they heard Christ the Essentiall Word of the Father with admiration to astonishment yetbeleeved him not S. Luk. 2. 47. And the Word theâ—… spake to them by a meanes they thought not of namely per Filium Dei in pucro by the Sonne of God himselfe under the Vaile of our humane nature S. Augustine speakes A Word of God there is Quod nunquam tacet sed non semper auditur which though it be never silent yet is not alwayes heard That it is never silent is his great Mercy and that it is not alwayes heard is not the least of our Misery Vpon this Motion I tooke time to deliberate And had scarce time for that much lesse for the Worke. Yet at last to every of these men I gave this Answer That M. Fisher or A. C. for him had beene busie with my former Discourse and that I would never reprint that unlesse I might gaine time enough to Answer that which A. C. had charged a fresh both upon mee and the Cause While my Thoughts were thus at worke Your Majesty fell upon the same Thing and was graciously pleased not to Command but to VVish me to reprint this Conference and in mine own Name And this openly at the Councel-Table in Michaelmas-Terme 1637. I did not hold it fit to deny having in all the Course of my service obayed your Majesties Honourable and Just Motions as Commands But Craved leave to shew what little leasure I had to doe it and what Inconveniences might attend upon it When this did not serve to excuse
explicandi Emanationem Sp. S. quà m in ipsá re c. Iodocus Clictoveus in Damase L 1. Fid Orth. c. 11. Et quidam ex Graecis concedunt quòd sit á Filio vel ab eo prostuat Thom. p. 1. q. 36. A. 2. C. Et Thomas ipse dicit Sp. S. procedere mediatè à Filio ib. A. 3. ad 1. salâ—…em ratione Personarum Spirantium Respondeo cum Bessarione Gennadio Damascenum non negâsse Sp. S. procedere ex Filio quod ad rem attinet quùm dixerit Spiritum esse Imaginem Filii per Filium sed existimásse tutiùs dici per Filium quà m ex Filio quantum ad modum loquendi c. Bellarm. L. 2. de Christo c. 27. §. Respondeo igitur Et Tollet in S. Iohn 15. Ar. 25. Lutheran Resp. ad Resp. 2. Ieremiae Patriarchae The Master and his Schollers agree upon it The Greeks saith he confesse the Holy Ghost to bee the Spirit of the Son with the Apostle Galath 4. and the Spirit of truth S. Iohn 16. And since Non est aliud it is not another thing to say The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Father and the Sonne then that He is or proceeds from the Father and the Sonne in this They seeme to agree with us in candem Fidei sententiam upon the same Sentence of Faith though they differ in words Now in this cause where the words differ but the Sentence of Faith is the same d Eadem penitùs Sententia ubi suprà Clictov penitùs eadem even altogether the same Can the Point be fundamentall You may make them no Church as e Bellarm. 4. de Notis Eccl. cap. 8. §. Quod autem apud Graecos Bellarmine doth and so deny them salvation which cannot be had out of the true Church but I for my part dare not so do And Rome in this Particular should be more moderate if it be but because this Article Filióque was added to the Creed by her selfe And 't is hard to adde and Anathematize too It ought to be no easie thing to condemne a man of Heresie in foundation of faith much lesse a Church least of all so ample and large a Churchas the Greeke especially so as to make them no Church Heaven Gates were not so easily shut against multitudes when S. Peter wore the Keyes at his owne girdle And it is good counsell which a Lib. 3. cont Hares fol. 93. A. 〈◊〉 vidcant ht qui famile de haerest pronumiant quaÌ„ facile etiam ipsi errent Et intelligant non esse tam leviter de Haeresi censenduÌ„ c. In verbo Beatitudo Alphonsus à castro one of your owne gives Let them consider that pronounce easily of Heresie how easie it is for themselves to erre Or if you will pronounce consider what it is that separates from the Church simply and not in part only I must needs professe that I wish heartily as well as b Iunius Animad in Bellar. cont 2. L. 3. c. 23. others that those distressed men whose Crosse is heavie already had beene more plainly and moderately dealt withall though they thinke a diverse thing from us then they have beene by the Church of Rome But hereupon you say you were forc'd F. Whereupon I was forced to repeate what I had formerly brought against D. White concerning Points Fundamentall B. Hereupon it is true that you read a large § 10 Discourse out of a Booke printed which you said was yours The Particulars all of them at the least I do not now remember nor did I then approve But if they be such as were formerly brought against Doctor White they are by him formerly answered The first thing you did was the * P. First righting the Sentence of S. Austine Ferendus est Disputator errans c. Here A. C. p. 44. tells us very learnedly that my corrupt Copy hath righting instead of reading the Sentence of S. Austine Whereas I here use the word righting not as it is opposed to reading as any man may discerne A. C. palpably mistakes but for doing right to S. Austine And if I had meant it for writing I should not have spelled it so righting of S. Augustine which Sentence I doe not at all remember was so much as named in the Conference much lesse was it stood upon and then righted by you Another place of S. Augustine indeed was which you omit But it comes after about Tradition to which I remit it But now you tell us of a great Proofe made out of this †By which is proved That all poynts Defined by the Church are Fundamentall Place For these words of yours containe two Propositions One That all Poynts defined by the Church are Fundamentall The other That this is proved out of this Place of S. Augustine 1. For the first That all Poynts defined by the Church are fundamentall It was not the least meanes by which Rome grew to her Greatnesse to blast every Opposer she had with the name of Hereticke or Schismaticke for this served to shrivel the credit of the Persons And the Persons once brought into contempt and ignominie all the good they desired in the Church fell to dust for want of creditable Persons to backe and support it To make this Proceeding good in these later yeares this Course it seemes was taken The Schoole that must maintaine and so they doe That all Points Defined by the Church are thereby a Your owne word Fundamentall b Inconcussâ fide ab omnibus Thom. 2. 2ae q. 1. Art 10. C. necessary to be believed c Sco us 1. Sent. d. 11. q. 1. of the substance of the Faith and that though it be determined quite d Ecclesiae Voces etiam extra Scripturam Stap. Relect. Con. 4. q. 1. Ar. 3. Quae maturo judicio definivit c. Solidum est etiamsi nullo Scripturarum aut evidenti aut probabili testimonio confirmaretur bid Extra Scripturam And then e Et penes Cercopes Victoria sit Greg. Naz. de Differen vitae Cercopes 1. Astutos veteratoriae improbitat is Episcopos qui artibus suis ac dolis omnia Concilia perturbabant Schol. ib. leave the wise and active Heads to take order that there be strength enough ready to determine what is fittest for them But since these men distinguish not nor you betweene the Church in generall and a Generall Councell which is but her Representation for Determinations of the Faith though I be very slow in sifting or opposing what is concluded by Lawfull Generall and consenting Authority though I give as much as can justly be given to the Definitions of Councels truly Generall nay suppose I should grant which I doe not That Generall Councells cannot erre yet this cannot downe with me That all Poynts even so defined are Fundamentall For Deductions are not prime and native Principles nor are Superstructures Foundations That which is a
say that the Booke of Articles only was the Continent of the Church of Englands publike Doctrine She is not so narrow nor hath she purpose to exclude any thing which she acknowledges hers nor doth she wittingly permit any Crossing of her publike Declarations yet she is not such a shrew to her Children as to deny her Blessing or Denounce an Anathema against them if some peaceably dissent in some Particulars remoter from the Foundation as your owne Schoole men differ And if the Church of Rome since she grew to her greatnesse had not beene so fierce in this Course and too particular in Determining too many things and making them matters of Necessary Beliefe which had gone for many hundreds of years before only for things of Pious Opinion Christendome I perswade my selfe had beene in happier peace at this Day then I doubt we shall ever live to see it Well but A. C. will proove the Church of England a Shrew and such a Shrew For in her Booke * Can. 5. of Canons A. C. p. 48. She Excommunicates every man who shall hold any thing contrary to any part of the said Articles So A. C. But surely these are not the very words of the Canon nor perhaps the sense Not the Words for they are Whosoever shall affirme that the Articles are in any part superstitious or erroneous c. And perhaps not the sense For it is one thing for a man to hold an Opinion privately within himselfe and another thing boldly and publikely to affirme it And againe 't is one thing to hold contrary to some part of an Article which perhaps may bee but in the manner of Expression and another thing positively to affirme that the Articles in any part of them are superstitious and erroneous But this is not the Maine of the Businesse For though the Church of England Denounce Excommunication as is a Can. 5. before expressed Yet She comes farre short of the Church of Rome's severity whose Anathema's are not only for 39. Articles but for very many more * Concil Trident. above one hundred in matter of Doctrine and that in many Poynts as farre remote from the Foundation though to the farre greater Rack of mens Consciences they must be all made Fundamentall if that Church have once Determined them whereas the Church A. C. p. 45. of England never declared That every one of her Articles are Fundamentall in the Faith For 't is one thing to say No one of them is superstitious or erroneous And quite another to say Every one of them is fundamental and that in every part of it to all mens Beliefe Besides the Church of England prescribes only to her owne Children and by those Articles provides but for her owne peaceable Consent in those Doctrines of Truth But the Church of Rome severely imposes her Doctrine upon the whole World under paine of Damnation F. And that the Scriptures only not any unwritten Tradition was the Foundation of their Faith B. The Church of England grounded her Positive § 15 Articles upon Scripture and her Negative doe refute there where the thing affirmed by you is not affirmed by Scripture nor directly to be concluded out of it And here not the Church of England only but all Protestants agree most truly and most strongly in this That the Scripture is sufficient to salvation and containes in it all things necessary to it The Fathers a S. Basil. de verâ piâ fide Manifesta defectio Fidei est importare quicquam eorum quae scripta non sunt S. Hilar. L. 2. ad Const. Aug. Fidem tantùm secundum ca quae scripta sunt desider autem hoc qui repudiat Antichristus est qui simulat Anathema est S. Aug. L. 2. de Doctr. Christian. c. 9. In iis quae apertè in Scriptura posita sunt inveniuntur illa omnia quae continent sidem mâ—…resque vivendi And to this place Bellarm L. 4. de verbo Dei non scripto c. 11. saith that S. Augustine speakes de illis Dogmatibus quae necestaria sunt omnibus simpliciter of those Points of faith which are necessary simply for all men So farre then he grants the question And that you may know it fell not from him on the suddaine he had said as much before in the beginning of the same Chapter and here he confirmes it againe are plaine the b Sâ—…tus Proleg in sent q. 2. Scriptura sufficienter continet Doctrinam necessariam Uiatori Thom. 2. 2ae q. 1. A. 10. ad 1. In Doctrina Christi Apostolorum veritas fidei est suffi ientèr explicata And he speakes there of the written Word Schoolemen not strangers in it And have not we reason then to account it as it is The Foundation of our Faith And c Scripturam Fundamentum esse columnam Fidei fatemur in suo genere i. can genere Testimoniorum in materia Credendorum Relect. Con. 4. q. 1. Ar. 3. in fine Stapleton himselfe though an angry Opposite confesses That the Scripture is in some sort the Foundation of Faith that is in the nature of Testimony and in the matter or thing to be believed And if the Scripture be the Foundation to which we are to goe for witnesse if there be Doubt about the Faith and in which we are to find the thing that is to be believed as necessary in the Faith we never did nor never will refuse any Tradition that is Universall and Apostolike for the better Exposition of the Scripture nor any Definition of the Church in which she goes to the Scripture for what she teaches and thrusts nothing as Fundamentall in the Faith upon the world but what the Scripture fundamentally makes materiam Credendorum the substance of that which is so to be believed whether immediatly and expresly in words or more remotely till a cleare and full Deduction draw it out Against the beginning of this Paragraph A. C. excepts And first he sayes 'T is true that the Church of England grounded her Positive Articles upon Scripture A. C. p. 48. That is 't is true if themselves may be competent Iudges in their owne Cause But this by the leave of A. C. is true without making our selves Iudges in our owne Cause For that all the Positive Articles of the present Church of England are grounded upon Scripture we are content to be judged by the joynt and constant Beliefe of the Fathers which lived within the first foure or five hundred yeares after Christ when the Church was at the best and by the Councels held within those times and to submit to them in all those Points of Doctrine Therefore we desire not to be Iudges in our owne Cause And if any whom A. C. cals a Novellist can truly say and maintaine this he will quickly proove himselfe no Novellist And for the Negative Articles they refute where the thing affirmed by you is either not affirmed in
hope this is no part of your meaning Yet I doubt this b Qui conantur sidem destruere sub specie Questionis difficilis aut fortè indissolubilis c. Orig. Q. 35. in S. Matth. Question How doe you know Scripture to be Scripture hath done more harme than you will be ever able to helpe by Tradition But I must follow that way which you draw me And because it is so much insisted upon by you and is in it self a c To know that Scriptures are Divine and infallible in every part is a Foundation so necessary as if it bee doubtfully question'd all the Faith built upon Scripture fals to the ground A. C. p. 47. Necesse est nôsse extare Libros aliquos vere Divinos Bellarm. L. 4. de verb. Dei non scripto c. 4. §. Quarto necesse Et etiam libros qui sunt in manibus esse illos Ibid. §. Sexto oportet matter of such Consequence I will sift it a little farther Many men labouring to settle this great Principle in Divinity have used diverse meanes to prove it All have not gone the same way nor all the right way You cannot be right that resolve Faith of the Scriptures being the Word of God into onely Tradition For onely and no other proofe are equall To prove the Scripture therefore so called by way of Excellence to be the Word of God there are severall Offers at diverse proofes For first some flie to the Testimony and witnesse of the Church and 1. her Tradition which constantly believes and unanimously delivers it Secondly some to the Light 2. and the Testimony which the Scripture gives to it selfe with other internall proofes which are observed in it and to be found in no other Writing whatsoever Thirdly some to the Testimony of the Holy 3. Ghost which cleares up the light that is in Scripture and seales this Faith to the soules of men that it is Gods Word Fourthly all that have not imbrutished 4. themselves and sunke below their species and order of Nature give even Naturall Reason leave to come in and make some proofe and give some approbation upon the weighing and the consideration of other Arguments And this must be admitted if it be but for Pagans and Infidels who either consider not or value not any one of the other three yet must some way or other bee converted or left without excuse Rom. 1. and that is Rom. 1. 20. done by this very evidence 1. For the first The Tradition of the Church which is your way That taken and considered alone it is so farre from being the onely that it cannot be a sufficient Proofe to believe by Divine Faith that Scripture is the Word of God For that which is a full and sufficient proofe is able of it selfe to settle the soule of man concerning it Now the Tradition of the Church is not able to doe this For it may bee further asked why wee should believe the Churches Tradition And if it be answered we may believe Because the Church is infallibly governed by the Holy Ghost it may yet be demanded of you How that may appeare And if this be demanded either you must say you have it by speciall Revelation which is the private Spirit you object to other men or else you must attempt to prove it by Scripture a Esse aliquas veras Traditiones demonstratur ex Scripturis Bellar L. 4 de verbo Dei non Scripto c. 5. and A. C p. 50. proves Tradition out of 2 Thes. 2. as all of you doe And that very offer to prove it out of Scripture is a sufficient acknowledgement that the Scripture is a higher Proofe then the Churches Tradition w ch in your own Grounds is or may be Questionable till you come thither Besides this is an Inviolable ground of Reason * Arist. 1. Post. c. 2. T. 16. Per Pacium Quocirca si 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 propter prima scimus credimus illa quoque scimus credimus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 magis quia per illa scimus credimus etiam posteriora That the Principles of any Conclusion must be of more credite then the conclusion it self Therefore if the Articles of Faith The Trinity the Resurrection and the rest be the Conclusions and the Principles by which they are prooved be only Ecclesiasticall Tradition it must needs follow That the Tradition of the Church is more infallible then the Articles of the Faith if the Faith which we have of the Articles should be finally Resolved into the Veracity of the Churches Testimony But this †Eorum errorem dissimulare non possum qui asserunt fidern Nostram cò tanquà m in ultimam credendi causam reducendam esse Vt Credamus Ecclesiam esse Veracem c. M. Canus L. 2. de Locis c. 8. §. Cui tertium your Learned and wary men deny And therefore I hope your selfe dare not affirme Againe if the Voyce of the Church saying the Bookes of Scripture commonly received are the Word of God be the formall Object of Faith upon which alone absolutely I may resolve my selfe then every man not only may but ought to resolve his Faith into the Voyce or Tradition of the Church for every man is bound to rest upon the proper and formall Object of the Faith But nothing can bee more evident then this That a man ought not to resolve his Faith of this Principle into the sole Testimony of the Church Therefore neither is that Testimony or Tradition alone the formall Object of Faith * Uox Ecclesiae non est formale Obiectum Fidei Stapl. Relect. Cont 4. q. 3. A. 2. Licet in Articulo Fidei Credo Ecclesiam fortè contineatur hoc totum Credo ea quae docet Ecclesia tamen non intelligitur necessariò quod Credo docenti Ecclesiae tanquam Testi insallibili ibid. Vbi etiam rejicit Opinionem Durandi Gabr. Et Waldens L. 2 Doctr. Fidei Art 2. c. 21. Num. 4. Testimonium Ecclesiae Catholicae est Objectum Fidei Christianae Legislatio Scripturae Canonica subjicitur tamen ipsi sicut Testis Iudici Testimonium Veritati c. Canus Loc. Lib. 2. cap. 8. Nec si Ecclesia aditum nobis prabet ad hujusmodi Libros Sacros cognoscendos protinus ibi acquiescendum est sed ultrà â—…portet progredi Solidà Dei veritate niti c. The Learned of your owne part grant this †Although in that Article of the Creed I believe the Catholike Church peradventure all this be contained I believe those things which the Church teacheth yet this is not necessarily understood That I believe the Church teaching as an Infallible Witnesse And if they did not confesse this it were no hard thing to prove But here 's the cunning of this Devise All the Authority's of Fathers Councels nay of Scripture too b Omnis ergo Ecclesiastica Authoritas cùm sit ad
other And even in those Fundamentall Things in which the Whole Vniversall Church neither doth nor can Erre yet even there her Authority is not Divine because She delivers those supernatural Truths by Promise of Assistance yet tyed to Meanes And not by any speciall Immediate Revelation which is necessarily required to the very least Degree of Divine Authority And therefore our †Hook l. 3. §. 9 VVorthies do not only say but prove That all the Churches Constitutions are of the nature of Humane Law a Stapl. Relect. Con. 4. q. 3. A. 1. 2. And some among you not unworthy for their Learning prove it at large That all the Churches Testimony or voyce or Sentence call it what you will is but suo modo or aliquo modo not simply but in a manner Divine Yea and A. C. himselfe A. C. p. 51. after all his debate comes to that and no further That the Tradition of the Church is at least in some sort Divine and Infallible Now that which is Divine but in a sort or manner bee it the Churches manner is aliquo modo non Divina in a sort not Divine But this Great Principle of Faith the Ground and Proofe of whatsoever else is of Faith cannot stand firme upon a Proofe that is and is not in a manner and not in a manner Divine As it must if we have no other Anchor then the Externall Tradition of the Church to lodge it upon and hold it steddy in the midst of those waves which daily beate upon it Now here A. C. confesses expresly That to prove the Bookes of Scripture to bee Divine we must bee A. C. p. 49. warranted by that which is Infallible Hee confesses farther that there can be no sufficient Infallible Proofe of A. C. p. 50. this but Gods Word written or unwritten And he gives his Reason for it Because if the Proofe be meerely Humane and Fallible the Science or Faith which A. C. p. 51. is built upon it can be no better So then this is agreed on by mee yet leaving other men to travell by their owne way so bee they can come to make Scripture thereby Infallible That Scripture must bee knowne to bee Scripture by a sufficient Infallible Divine Proofe And that such Proofe can be nothing but the Word of God is agreed on also by me Yea and agreed on for me it shall be likewise that Gods Word may be written and unwritten For Cardinall †Verbum Dei non est tale nec habet ullam Authoritatem quia scriptum est in membranis sed quia à Deo profectum est Bellar. l. 4 de Verb. Dei 2 §. Ecclesiasticae Traditiones Bellarmine tells us truly that it is not the writing or printing that makes Scripture the Word of God but it is the Prime Vnerring Essentiall Truth God himselfe uttering and revealing it to his Church that makes it Verbum Dei the Word of God And this Word of God is uttered to men either immediately by God himselfe Father Sonne and Holy Ghost and so 't was to the Prophets and Apostles Or mediately either by Angels to whom God had spoken first and so the Law was given * Lex ordinata per Angelos in manu 〈◊〉 Gal. 3 19. Gal. 3. and so also the Message was delivered to the Blessed Virgin a S. Luk. 1. 0. S. Luke 1. or by the Prophets b The Holy Ghost c. which spake by the Prophets in Symb. Nicen. and Apostles and so the Scriptures were delivered to the Church But their being written gave them no Authority at all in regard of themselves VVritten or unwritten the VVord was the same But it was written that it might bee the better c Nam Psiudoprophetae etiam viventibus adâ—…c Apostolis multas fingebant corruptelas sub â—…oc praetextu titulo quasi ab Apostolis vivà veccessent traditae propter hanc ipsâ—…m causam Apostoli Doctrinam suam coeperunt Literis comprehendere Ecclesiis commendare Chem. Exam. Concil Trid. de Traditionibus sub octavo genere Tradit And so also Iansâ—…n Comment in S. Ioh 5. 47. Sicut enim firmius est quod mandatur Literis ita est culpabiliâ—…s majus non credere Scriptis quam non credere Verbis preserved and continued with the more integrity to the use of the Church and the more faithfully in our d Labilis est memoria ideo indigâ—…mus Scripturâ Dicendum quod verum est sed hoc non habet nisi ex inundantia peccatorum Hent a Gand. Sum. p. 1 Ar. 8. q. 4. sine Christus ipse de pectore morituro Testamentum transfert in tabulas diù duraturas Optat. L 5. Christus ipse non transtulit sed ex Optati sew entiâ Ejus Inspiratione si non Iussâ—… Apostoli transtulerunt Memories And you have been often enough told were truth and not the maintaining of a party the thing you seek for that if you will shew us any such unwritten word of God delivered by his Prophets and Apostles we will acknowledge it to be Divine and Infallible So written or unwritten that shall not stumble us But then A. C. must not tell us at least not thinke we shall swallow it into our Beliefe that every thing which he sayes is the unwritten VVord of God is so indeed I know Bellarmine hath written a whole Booke * Bellar. L. 4. De Verbo Dei non script De Verbo Dei non scripto of the Word of God not written in which he handles the Controversie concerning Traditions And the Cunning is to make his weaker Readers believe that all that which He and his are pleased to call Traditions are by and by no lesse to be received and honoured then the unwritten word of God ought to be Whereas 't is a thing of easie knowledge That the unwritten VVord of God and Tradition are not Convertible Termes that is are not all one For there are many Vnwritten VVords of God which were never delivered over to the Church for ought appeares And there are many Traditions affirmed at least to be such by the Church of Rome which were never warranted by any unwritten Word of God First That there are many unwritten words of God which were never delivered over to the Church is manifest For when or where were the words which Christ spake to his Apostles during the a Acts 1. 3. forty dayes of his Conversing with them after his Resurrection first delivered over to the Church or what were the unwritten Words He then spake If neither Heâ—… nor His Apostles or Evangelists have delivered them to the Church the Church ought not to deliver them to her Children Or if she doe b Annunciare aliquid Christianis Catholicis praeter id quod acceperunt nunquam licuit nusquam licet nunquam licebit Vincen. Lir. c. 14. Et praeâ—…ipit nihil aliu â—…innovari nisi quo 〈◊〉
others And Miracles are not sufficient alone to prove it unlesse both They and the Revelation too agree with the Rule of Scripture which is now an unalterable Rule by b Gal. 1. 8. man or Angell To all this A. C. sayes nothing save that I seeme not to admit of an infallible Impulsion of a private Spirit ex parte subjecti A. C. p. 52. without any infallible Reason and that sufficiently applied ex parte objecti which if I did admit would open a gap to all Enthusiasmes and dreames of fanaticall men Now for this yet I thank him For I do not onely seeme not to admit but I doe most clearely reject this phrensie in the words going before 4. The last way which gives c Utitur tamâ—… sacra Doctrina Ratione Humanâ non quidem ad probandum Fidem ipsam sed ad manifest andum aliqua alia quae traduntur in hac Doctrina Tho. p. 1. q. 1. A. 8. ad 2. Passibus rationis novus homo tendit in Deum S. Aug. de vera Relig. c. 26. Passibus veruÌ„ est sed nec aequis nec solis Nam Invisibilia Dei altiori modo quantum ad plura pâ—…rcipitg Fides quà m Ratio naturalis ex Creaturis in Deum procedens Tho. 2. 2. q. 2. A. 3. ad 3. Reason leave to come in and prove what it can may not justly be denied by any reasonable man For though Reason without Grace cannot see the way to Heaven nor believe this Booke in which God hath written the way yet Grace is never placed but in a reasonable creature and proves by the very seat which it hath taken up that the end it hath is to be spirituall eye-water to make Reason see what by †Animalis homo non percipit 1. Cor. 2. 14. Nature onely it cannot but never to blemish Reason in that which it can comprehend Now the use of Reason is very generall and man do what he can is still apt to search and seeke for a Reason why he will believe though after he once believes his Faith growes d Quia scientiae certitudinem habent ox naturali lumine Rationis humanae quae potest errare Theologia autem quae docet Objectum Notitiam Fidei sicut Fidem ipsam certitudinem habet ex lumine Divinae scientiae quae decipi non potest Tho. p. 1. q. 1. A. 5. c. Vt ipsà fide valentiores facti quod credimus intelligere mereamur S. Aug. cont Ep. Manichaei dictam Fundamentum c. 14. Hoc autem it a intelligendum est ut scientia certior sit Certitudine Evidentiae Fides verò certior Firmitate Adhaesionis Majus lumen in Scientia majus Robur in Fide Et hoc quia in Fide ad Fidem Actus imperatus Voluntatis concurrit Credere enim est Actus Intellectus Vero assentiontis productus ex Voluntatis Imperio Biel. in 3. Sent. d. 23. q. 2. A. 1. Unde Tho. Intellectus Credentis determinatur ad Unum non per Rationem sed per Voluntatem ideo Assensus hic accipitur pro Actu Intellectus secundum quod à Voluntate determinatur ad Vnum 2. 2. q. 2. A. 1. ad 3. stronger than either his Reason or his Knowledge and great reason for this because it goes higher and so upon a safer Principle than either of the other can in this life In this Particular the Bookes called the Scripture are commonly and constantly reputed to bee the Word of God and so infallible Verity to the least point of them Doth any man doubt this The world cannot keepe him from going to weigh it at the Ballance of Reason whether it bee the Word of God or not To the same Weights hee brings the Tradition of the Church the inward motives in Scripture it selfe all Testimonies within which seeme to beare witnesse to it and in all this there is no harme the danger is when a man will use no other Scale but Reason or preferre Reason before any other Scale For the Word of God and the Booke containing it refuse not to bee weighed by a Si vobis rationi veritati consentanca videntur in pretio habete c. de mysteriis Religionis Iustin. Mart. Apol. 2. Igitur si fuit dispositio Rationis c. Tertull. L de Carne Christi c. 18. Rationabile est credere Deum esse Autorem Scripturae Henr. a Gand. Sum To. 1. Ar. 9. q. 3. Reason But the Scale is not large enough to containe nor the Weights to measure out the true vertue and full force of either Reason then can give no supernaturall ground into which a man may resolve his Faith That Scripture is the Word of God infallibly yet Reason can go so high as it can prove that Christian Religion which rests upon the Authority of this Booke stands upon surer grounds of Nature Reason common Equity and Iustice than any thing in the World which any Infidell or meere Naturalist hath done doth or can adhere unto against it in that which he makes accounts or assumes as Religion to himselfe The Ancient Fathers relied upon the Scriptures no Christians more and having to doe with Philosophers men very well seene in all the subtilties which Naturall Reason could teach or learne They were often put to it and did as often make it good That they had sufficient warrant to relie so much as They did upon Scripture In all which Disputes because they were to deale with Infidels they did labour to make good the Authority of the Booke of God by such Arguments as unbelievers themselves could not but thinke reasonable if they weighed them with indifferency For though I set the Mysteries of Faith above Reason which is their proper place yet I would have no man thinke They contradict Reason or the Principles thereof No sure For Reason by her own light can discover how firmely the Principles of Religion are true but all the Light shee hath will never bee able to finde them false Nor may any man thinke that the Principles of Religion even this That Scriptures are the Word of God are so indifferent to a Naturall eye that it may with as just cause leane to one part of the Contradiction as to the other For though this Truth That Scripture is the Word of God is not so Demonstratively evident a priori as to enforce Assent yet it is strengthen'd so abundantly with probable Arguments both from the Light of Nature it selfe and Humane Testimony that he must be very wilfull and selfe-conceited that shall dare to suspect it Nay yet farther a Hook L. 3. §. 8. Si Plato ipse viveret me interrogantem non aspernaretur c. S. Aug. de verá Relig. c. 3. Vide amus quatenus Ratio potest progredi á visibilibus ad invisibilia c. Ibid. c. 29. It is not altogether impossible to proove it even by Reason a Truth infallible or else to make them deny some
is in Scripture it selfe is not bright enough it cannot beare sufficient witnesseto itselfe The Testimonie of the Holy Ghost that is most infallible but ordinarily it is not so much as considerable in this Question which is not how or by what meanes we believe but how the Scripture may be proposed as a Credible Object fit for Beliefe And for Reason no man expects that that should proove it it doth service enough if it enable us to disproove that which misguided men conceive against it If none of these then be an Absolute and sufficient meanes to prove it either we must finde out another or see what can bâ—… more wrought out of these And to all this again A. C. sayes nothing For the Tradition of the Church then certaine it is wee must distinguish the Church before wee can judge right of the Validity of the Tradition For if the speech bee of the Prime Christian Church the Apostles Disciples and such as had immediate Revelation from Heaven no question but the Voyce and Tradition of this Church is Divine not aliquo modo in a sort but simply and the Word of God from them is of like Validity written or delivered And against this Tradition of which kinde this That the Bookes of Scripture are the Word of God is the most generall and uniforme the Church of England never excepted And when S. †L. 1. cont Epis. Fund c. 5. Ego vero non crederem Evangelio nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoveret Authoritas Augustine said I would not believe the Gospell unlesse the Authority of the Catholike Church mooved mee which Place you urged at the Conference though you are now content to slide by it some of your owne will not endure should be understood save * Occham Dial. p. 1. L. 1. c. 4. Intelligitur solum de Ecclesiâ—… qua fuit tempore Apostolorum of the Church in the time of the Apostles only and a Biel. lect 2â—… in C. Missâ—… A tempore Christi Apostolorum c. And so doth S. August take Eccles. Contra Fund some of the Church in Generall not excluding after-ages But sure to include Christ and his Apostles And the certainety is there abundance of certainety in it selfe but how farre that is evident to us shall after appeare But this will not serve your turne The Tradition of the present Church must bee as Infallible as that of the Primitive But the contrary to this is prooved * §. 16. Nu. 6. before because this Voyce of the present Church is not simply Divine To what end then serves any Tradition of the present Church To what Why to a very good end For first it serves by a full consent to worke upon the mindes of unbelievers to move them to reade and to consider the Scripture which they heare by so many Wise Learned and Devoute men is of no meaner esteeme then the Word of God And secondly It serves among Novices Weaklings and Doubters in the Faith to instruct and confirme them till they may acquaint themselves with and understand the Scripture which the Church delivers as the Word of God And thus againe some of your owne understand the fore-cited Place of S. Augustine I would not believe the Gospell c. * Sive Infâ—…les sive in Fide Novitii Can. Loc. L. 2. c 8. Neganti aut omnino nescientâ—… Scripturam Stapl. Relect. Cent. 4. q. 1. A 3. For he speakes it either of Novices or Doubters in the Faith or else of such as were in part Infidels You at the Conference though you omit it here would needs have it that S. Augustine spake even of the †Quid si fateamur Fideles etiam Ecclesiae Authoritate commoveri ut Scripturas recipiant Non tamen inde sequitur eos hoc modo penitus 〈◊〉 aut nullâ aliâ fortioreque ratione induci Quis autem Christianus est quem Ecclesia Christi commâ—…dans Scripturam Christi non commoveat Whitaker Disp. de sacrâ Scripturá Contro 1. q 3. c. 8. vbt 〈◊〉 locum hunc S. Aug. faithfull which I cannot yet thinke For he speakes to the Manichees and they had a great part of the Infidell in them And the words immediately before these are If thou shouldest finde one Qui Evangelio nondum credit which did not yet believe the Gospell what wouldest thou doe to make him believe a Et ibid. Quibus obtemperavi dicentibus Credite Evangelio Therefore he speakes of himselfe when he did not believe Ego verò non Truly I would not c. So to these two ends it serves and there need be no Question between us But then every thing that is the first Inducer to believe is not by and by either the Principall Motive or the chiefe and last Object of Beliefe upon which a man may rest his Faith Vnlesse we shall be of b Certum est quod tenemur credere omnibus contentis in Sacro Canone quia Ecclesia credit ex caratione soluÌ„ Ergo per prius magis tenemur Credere Ecclesiae quam Evangelio Almain in 3. Dist. 24 Conclus 6. Dub. 6. And to make a shew of proof for this he falsifies S Aug. most notoâ—…ously and reads that known place not Nisi me commoveret as all read it but compelleret Patet quia dicit Augustinus Evangelio non CredereÌ„ nisi aa hoc me compelleret Ecclesiae Au. horitas Ibid. And so also Gerson 〈◊〉 In Declarat veritatum quae credendae sunt c. part 1 p. 414. §. 3. But in a most ancient Manuscript in Corp. Ch. Colledge Library in Cambridge the words are Nisi me commoveret c. Lacobus Almain's Opinion That we are per prius magis first and more bound to believe the Church then the Gospell Which your own Learned men as you may see by c Canus L. 2. de Locis c. 8. fo 34. b. §. 16. Num. 6. Mel. Canus reject as Extreame foule and so indeed it is The first knowledge then after the Quid Nominis is knowne by Grammer that helpes to open a mans understanding and prepares him to bee able to Demonstrate a Truth and make it evident is his Logicke But when he hath made a Demonstration he resolves the knowledge of his Conclusion not into his Grammaticall or Logicall Principles but into the Immediate Principles out of which it is deduced So in this Particular a man is probably led by the Authority of the present Church as by the first informing induceing perswading Meanes to believe the Scripture to be the Word of God but when he hath studied considered and compared this Word with it selfe and with other Writings with the helpe of Ordinary Grace and a minde morally induced and reasonably perswaded by the Voyce of the Church the Scripture then gives greater and higher reasons of Credibility to it selfe then Tradition alone could give And then he that Believes resolves his last and full Assent That Scripture is of
more wee finde that the thing it selfe doth answer our received opinion concerning it so that the former inducement prevailing somewhat with us before doth now much more prevaile when the very thing hath ministred farther Reason Here then againe in his Iudgement Tradition is the first Inducement but the farther Reason and Ground is the Scripture And Resolution of Faith ever settles upon the Farthest Reason it can not upon the First Inducement So that the State of this Question is firme and yet plaine enough to him that will not shut his eyes Now here after a long silence A. C. thrusts himselfe in againe and tels me That if I would A. C. p. 52. consider the Tradition of the Church not onely as it is the Tradition of a Company of Fallible men in which sense the Authority of it as himselfe confesses is but Humane and Fallible c. But as the Tradition of a Company of men assisted by Christ and his Holy Spirit in that sense I might easily finde it more then an Introduction indeed as much as would amount to an Infallible Motive Well I have considered The Tradition of the present Church both these wayes And I finde that A. C. confesses That in the first sense the Tradition of the Church is meere humane Authority and no more And therefore in this sense it may serve for an Introduction to this Beliefe but no more And in the second sense as it is not the Tradition of a Company of men onely but of men assisted by Christ and His Spirit In this second sense I cannot finde that the Tradition of the present Church is of Divine and Infallible Authority till A. C. can prove That this Company of men the Romane Prelates and their Clergie he meanes are so fully so cleerely so permanently assisted by Christ and his Spirit as may reach to Infallibility much lesse to a Divine Infallibility in this or any other Principle which they teach For every Assistance of Christ and the Blessed Spirit is not enough to make the Authority of any Company of men Divine and infallible but such and so great an Assistance onely as is purposely given to that effect Such an Assistance the Prophets under the Old Testament and the Apostles under the New had but neither the High-Priest with his Clergie in the Old nor any Company of Prelates or Priests in the New since the Apostles ever had it And therefore though at the entreaty of A. C. I have considered this very A. C. p. 52. well yet I cannot no not in this Assisted sense thinke the Tradition of the present Church Divine and Infallible or such Company of men to be worthy of Divine and infallible Credit and sufficient to breed in us Divine and Infallible Faith Which I am sorrie A. C. should affirme so boldly as he doth What A. C. p. 52. That Company of men the Romane Bishop and his Clergie of Divine and Infallible Credit and sufficient to breed in us Divine and Infallible Faith Good God! Whither will these men goe Surely they are wise in their generation but that makes them never a whit the more the Children of light a S. Luke 16. 8. S. Luke 16. And could they put this home upon the world as they are gone farre in it what might they not effect How might they and would they then Lord it over the Faith of Christendome contrary to b 1. S. Pet. 5. 3. S. Peter's Rule whose Successours certainly in this they are not But I pray if this Company of men be infallibly assisted whence is it that this very Company have erred so dangerously as they have not only in some other things but even in this Particular by equaling the Tradition of the present Church to the written Word of God Which is a Doctrine unknowne to the a S. Basil goes as farre for Traditions as any For he sayes Parem vim habent ad pictatem L. de Sp. Sanct. c. 27. But first he speaks of Apostolicall Tradition not of the Tradition of the Present Church Secondly the Learned take exceptions to this Booke of S. Basil as corrupted BP Andr. Opusc. cont Peron p. 9. Thirdly S. Basil himself Ser. de Fide professes that he uses somtimes Agrapha sed ca solùm quae non sunt aliona à piâ secundum Scripturam sententiâ So he makes the Scripture their Touch-stone or tryall And therefore must of Necessity make Scripture superior in as much as that which is able to try another is of greater force and superiour Dignity in that use then the thing tried by it And Stapleton himselfe confesses Traditionem recentiorem posteriorem sicut particularem nullo modo cum Scripturâ vel cum Traditionibus priùs à se explicatis comparandam esse Stapleton Relect. Controv. 5. q. 5. A. 2. Primitive Church and which frets upon the very Foundation it selfe by justling with it So belike he that hath but halfe an indifferent eye may see this Assisted Company have erred and yet we must wink in obedience and think them Infallible But. A. C. would have me consider againe That A. C. p 52. it is as easie to take the Tradition of the present Church in the two fore-named senses as the present Scriptures printed and approved by men of this Age. For in the first sense The very Scriptures saith he considered as printed and approved by men of this Age can be no more then of Humane Credit But in the second sense as printed and approved by men assisted by God's Spirit for true Copies of that which was first written then we may give Infallible Credit to them Well I have considered this too And I can take the Printing and Approving the Copies of Holy-Writ in these two senses And I can and do make a difference betweene Copies printed and approved by meere morall men and men assisted by Gods Spirit And yet for the Printing onely a skilfull and an able morall man may doe better service to the Church then an illiterate man though assisted in other things by God's Spirit But when I have considered all this what then The Scripture being put in writing is a thing visibly existent and if any errour be in the Print 't is easily corrigible by b Ut §. 18. Nu. 4. Eâ—… S. Aug. L. 32. cont Faustum 〈◊〉 1â—… former Copies Tradition is not so easily observed nor so safely kept And howsoever to come home to that which A. C. inferres upon it namely That the A. C. p. 53. Tradition of the present Church may be accepted in these two senses And if this be all that he will inferre for his penne here is troubled and forsakes him whether by any checke of Conscience or no I know not I will and you see have granted it already without more adoe with this Caution That every Company of men assisted by Gods Spirit are not assisted to this height to be Infallible by Divine Authority For all this
his abodc on Earth And this Promise of his spirituall presence was to their Successors else why to the end of the world The Apostles did not could not live so long But then to the * Rabanus Manr goes no furrher then that to the End some will alwayes bee in the world fit for Christ by his Spirit and Grace to inhabit Divina mansione inhabitatione digni Rab. in S. Mat. 28. 19 20. Pergatis habentes Dominum Protectorem Ducem saith S. Cypr. L. 4. Epist. 1. But he doth not say How farre sorth And loquitur Fidelibus sicut uni Corpcri S. Chrysost. Homil in S. Matth. And if S Chrysost. inlarge it so farre I hope A. C. will not extend the Assistance given or promised here to the whole Body of the Faithfull to an Infallible and Divine Assistance in every of them as well as in the Pastors and Doctors Successors the Promise goes no further then I am with you alwayes which reaches to continuall assistance but not to Divine and Infallible Or if he think me mistaken let him shew mee any One Father of the Church that extends the sense of this Place to Divine and Infallible Assistance granted hereby to all the Apostles Successors Sure I am Saint †In illis donâ—… quibus salus aliorum quaeritur qualia sunt Prâ—…phetiae interpretationes Sermanum c. Spiritus Sanctus nequaquam semper in Pradicatorib us permanet S. Greg. L. 2. Moral c 29. prin Edit Basil. 1551. Gregory thought otherwise For hee saies plainly That in those Gifts of God which concern other mens salvation of which Preaching of the Gospell is One the Spirit of Christ the Holy Ghost doth not alwayes abide in the Preachers bee they never so lawfully sent Pastors or Doctors of the Church And if the Holy Ghost doth not alwayes abide in the Preachers then most certainly he doth not abide in them to a Divine Infallibility alwayes The Third Place is in S. Iohn 14. where Christ sayes S. Iohn 14. 16. The Comforter the Holy Ghost shall abide with you for ever Most true againe For the Holy Ghost did abide with the Apostles according to Christs Promise there made and shall abide with their Successors for ever to * Iste Consolator non auferetur à Vobis sicut subtrahitur Humaint as mea per mortem sed aternalitèr erit Vobiscum hic per Grasiam in futuro per Gloriam Lyra. in S. John 14. 16 You see there the Holy Ghost shal be present by Consolation and Grace not by Infallible Assistance comfort and preserve them But here 's no Promise of Divine Infallibility made unto them And for that Promise which is made and expresly of Infallibility Saint Iohn 16. though not S. Ioh. 16. 13. cited by A. C. That 's confined to the Apostles onely for the setling of thâ—…m in all Truth And yet not simply all For there are some Truths saith a Omnem veritatem Non arbitror in hac vita in cujusquam mente compleri c. S. Augustin in S. Ioh Tract 96. versus fin Saint Augustine which no mans Soule can comprehend in this life Not simply all But b Spiritus Sanctus c. qui eos doceret Omnem Veritatem quam tunc cum iis loquebatur portare non poterant S. Ioh. 16. 12 13. S. Augustin Tract 97. in S. Ioh. prin all those Truths quae non poterant portare which they were not able to beare when Hee Conversed with them Not simply all but all that was necessary for the Founding propagating establishing and Confirming the Christian Church But if any man take the boldnesse to inlarge this Promise in the fulnesse of it beyond the persons of the Apostles themselves that will fall out which Saint c Omnes vel insipientissimi Haeretici qui se Christianos vocars volunt audacias figmentorum suorum quas maximè exhorret sensus humanus hac Occasione Evangelicae sententiae colorare comentur c. S. Augustin T. 97. in S. Ioh. circamed Augustine hath in a manner prophecyed Every Heretick will shelter himselfe and his Vanities under this Colour of Infallible Veritie I told you a * Num. 26. A. C. p. 52. little before that A. C. his Penne was troubled and failed him Therefore I will helpe to make out his Inference for him that his Cause may have all the strength it can And as I conceive this is that hee would have The Tradition of the present Church is as able to worke in us Divine and Infallible Faith That the Scripture is the VVord of God As that the Bible or Bookes of Scripture now printed and in use is a true Copie of that which was first written by the Penne-men of the Holy Ghost and delivered to the Church 'T is most true the Tradition of the present Church is a like operative and powerfull in and over both these workes but neither Divine nor Infallible in either But as it is the first morall Inducement to perswade that Scripture is the Word of God so is it also the first but morall still that the Bible wee now have is a true Copie of that which was first written But then as in the former so in this latter for the true Copie The last Resolution of our Faith cannot possibly rest upon the naked Tradition of the present Church but must by and with it goe higher to other Helpes and Assurances Where I hope A. C. will confesse wee have greater helpes to discover the truth or falshood of a Copie then wee have meanes to looke into a Tradition Or especially to sift out this Truth that it was a Divine and Infalliâ—…le Revelation by which the Originals of Scripture were first written That being fatre more the Subject of this Inquiry then the Copie which according to Art and Science may be examined by former preceding Copies close up to the very Apostles times But A. C. hath not done yet For in the last place hee tells us That Tradition and Scripture A. C. p. 53. without any vicious Circle doe mutually confirme the Authority either of other And truly for my part I shall easily grant him this so hee will grant mee this other Namely That though they doe mutually yet they doe not equally confirme the Authority either of other For Scripture doth infallibly confirme the Authority of Church Traditions truly so called But Tradition doth but morally and probably confirme the Authority of the Scripture And this is manifest by A. C ' s. owne Similitude For saith he 't is as a Kings Embassadors word of mouth and His Kings Letters beare mutuall witnesse to each other Iust so indeed For His Kings Letters of Credence under hand and seale confirme the Embassadors Authority Infallibly to all that know Seale and hand But the Embassadors word of mouth confirmes His Kings Letters but onely probably For else Why are they called Letters of Credence if they give not him
more Credit then hee can give them But that which followes I cannot approve to wit That the Lawfully sent Preachers of the Gospell are Gods Legats and the Scriptures Gods Letters which hee hath appointed his Legates to deliver and expound So farre 't is well but here 's the sting That these Letters doe warrant that the People may heare and give Credit to these Legats of Christ as to Christ the King himselfe Soft this is too high a great deale No * Will A. C. maintaine that any Legate à Latere is of as great Credit as the Pope himselfe Legate was ever of so great Credit as the King Himselfe Nor was any Priest never so lawfully sent ever of that Authority that Christ himselfe No sure For yee call mee Master and Lord and yee doe well for so I am saith our Saviour S. Iohn 13. And certainly this did not suddenly S. Iohn 13. 13. drop out of A. C ' s. Penne. For hee tould us once before That this Company of men which deliver the present Churches Tradition that is the lawfully sent A. C. p. 52. Preachers of the Church are assisted by Gods Spirit to have in them Divine and Infallible Authority and to bee worthy of Divine and Infallible Credit sufficient to breed in us Divine and Infallible Faith Why but is it possible these men should goe thus farre to defend an Error bee it never so deare unto them They as Christ Divine and Infallible Authority in them Sufficient to breed in us Divine and Infallible Faith I have often heard some wise men say That the Iesuite in the Church of Rome and the Precise party in the Reformâ—…d Churches agree in many things though they would seeme most to differ And surely this is one For both of them differ extreamely about Tradition The one in magnifying it and exalting it into Divine Authority The other vilifying and depressing it almost beneath Humane And yet even in these different wayes both agree in this consequent That the Sermons and Preachings by word of mouth of the lawfully sent Pastors and Doctors of the Church are able to breed in us Divine and Infallible Faith Nay are the * For this A. C. sayes expresly of Tradition p. 52. And then he addes that the Promise for this was no lesse but rather more Expresly made to the lawfully sent Pastors and Doctors of the Church in all ages in their teaching by word of mouth then in writing c. p. 53. very word of God So A. C. expresly And no lesse then so have some accounted of their owne factious words to say no more then as the †For the freeing of factious and silenced Ministers is termed the Restoring of Gods Word to â—…s Liberty In the Godly Author of the late Newes from Ipswich p. 5. Word of God I ever tooke Sermons and so doe still to be most necessary Expositions and Applications of Holy Scripture and a great ordinary meanes of saving knowledge But I cannot thinke them or the Preachers of them Divinely Infallible The Ancient Fathers of the Church preached farre beyond any of these of either faction And yet no one of them durst thinke himselfe Infallible much lesse that whatsoever hee preached was the VVord of God And it may be Obserued too That no men are more apt to say That all the Fathers were but Men and might Erre then they that thinke their owne preachings are Infallible The next thing after this large Interpretation of A C. which I shall trouble you with is That this method and manner of proving Scripture to bee the VVord of God which I here use is the same which the Ancient Church ever held namely Tradition or Ecclesiasticall Authority first and then all other Arguments but especially internall from the Scripture it selfe This way the Church went in S. Augustine's a And S. Aug. himselfe L. 13. contr Faustum c. 5. proves by an Internall Argument the fulfilling of the Prophets Scriptura saith he quae fidem suam rebus ipsis probat quae per temporum successiones hac impleri c. And Hen. a Gand. Par. 1. Sum. A. 〈◊〉 q. 3. cites S. Aug. Book de vera Religione In which Book though these Foure Arguments are not found iâ—… Termes together yet they fill up the scope of the whole Book Time He was no enemy to Church-Tradition yet when hee would prove that the Authour of the Scripture and so of the whole knowledge of Divinity as it is supernaturall is Deus in Christo God in Christ he takes this as the All-sufficient way and gives foure proofes all internall to the Scripture First The Miracles Secondly That there is nothing carnall in the Doctrine Thirdly That there hath been such performance of it Fourthly That by such a Doctrine of Humility the whole world almost hath beene converted And whereas ad muniendam Fidem for the Defending of the Faith and keeping it entire there are two things requisite Scripture and Church-Tradition b Duplici modo muniri fideÌ„ c. Primò Divinae Legis Authoritate tum deinde Ecclesia Catholicae Traditione cont Har. c. 1. Vincent Lirinens places Authority of Scriptures first and then Tradition And since it is apparent that Tradition is first in order of time it must necessarily follow that Scripture is first in order of Nature that is the chiefe upon which Faith rests and resolves it selfe And your owne Schoole confesses this was the way ever The Woman of a S. Ioh. 4. Samaria is a knowne Resemblance but allowed by your selves For b Hen. à Gand. Sum. Par. 1. A. 10. q 1. Sic quotidie apudillos qui forts sunt intrat Christus per mulierem i. Ecclesiam credunt per istam famam c. Gloss. in S. Ioh. cap. 4. quotidâ—…è daily with them that are without Christ enters by the woman that is the Church and they believe by that fame which she gives c But when they come to heare Christ himselfe they believe his words before the words of the Woman For when they have once found Christ c Ibid. Plus verbis Christi in Scripturae credit quam Ecclesiae testificanti Quia propter illam jam credit Ecclesiae Et si ipsa quidem contraria Scripturae diceret ipsi non crederet c. Primam fidem tribuamus Scripturis Canonicis secundam sub ista Definitionibus Consuctudinibus Ecclesiae Catholicae post ist as studiosis viris non sub poena perfidiae sed proterviae c. Walden Doct. Fid. To. 1. L. 2. Art 2. c. 23. Nu. 9. they do more believe his words in Scripture then they do the Church which testifies of him because then propter illam for the Scripture they believe the Church And if the Church should speake contrary to the Scripture they would not believe it Thus the Schoole taught then And thus the Glosse commented then And when men have tyred themselves hither they must come
the satisfaction of all men Christianly disposed Whereas had I desired only to rid my hands of these Captious Iesuites for certainly this Question was Captiously asked it had beene sufficient to have restored the Question thus How doe you know the Testimony of the Church by which you say you know Scripture to be the Word of God to be Divine and Infallible If they proove it by Scripture A. C. p. 53. Et vid. §. 16. N. 28. as all of them doe and as A. C. doth how doe they know that Scripture to be Scripture It is but a Circular Assurance of theirs by which they found the Churches Infallibility upon the Testimonie of the Scripture And the Scriptures Infallibility upon the Testimony of the Church That is upon the Matter the Churches Infallibility upon the Churches Infallibility But I labour for edification not for destruction And now by what I have here said I will weigh my Answer and his Exception taken against it F. The Bishop said That the Books of Scripture are Principles to be Supposed and needed not to be Proved B. Why but did I say That this Principle The § 17 Books of Scripture are the Word of God is to be supposed as needing no Proof at al to a Naturall man Or to a man newly entring upon the Faith yea or perhaps to a Doubter or Weakling in the Faith Can you think me so weake It seemes you doe But sure I know there is a great deale of difference betweene Ethnicks that deny and deride the Scripture and men that are Born in the Church The first have a farther way about to this Principle The other in their very Christian Education sucke it in and are taught so soone as they are apt to learne it That the Books commonly called The Bible or Scripture are the Word of God And I dealt with you †Dixi sicut â—…i congruâ—… ad quâ—…â—…bam c. S Aug. l. 1. Retract c. 13. as with a Christian though in Errour while you call Catholike The Words before spoken by me were That the Scripture onely not any unwritten Tradition was the Foundation of Faith The Question betweene us and you is Whether the Scripture do containe all necessary things of Faith Now in this Question as in all Nature and Art the Subject the Scripture is and must be a Nor is it such a strange thing to heare that Scripture is such 〈◊〉 supposeâ—…d Principle among Chriâ—…ians Quod à Scriptura evidenter deduâ—…itur est evidenter verum suppositis Scripturis Bellarm. L. 4. de Eccl. Milit. c. 3. §. 3. supposed The Quaere between the Romane-Catholikes and the Church of England being onely of the Praedicate the thing uttered of it Namely whether it containe all Fundamentals of Faith all Necessaries for Salvation within it Now since thâ—… Question proposed in very forme of Art proves not but b De Subjecto enim quaeritur semper non Subjectiâ—…n ipsum supposes the Subject I thinke I gave a satisfying Answer That to you and me and in this Question Scripture was a Supposed Principle and needed no Proofe And I must tell you that in this Question of the Scriptures perfect Continent it is against all Art yea and Equity too in Reasoning to call for a Proofe of That here which must go unavoydably supposed in this Question And if any man will be so familiar with Impiety to Question it it must be tryed in a preceding Question and Dispute by it self Yet here not you onely but c L. 4. de verb. Dei c. 4. §. Quarâ—…ò necesse est 〈◊〉 the lesuite here apud A. C. p. 49. Bellarmine and others run quite out of the way to snatch at Advantage F. Against this I read what I had formerly written in my Reply against M. Iohn White Wherein I plainely shewed that this Answer was not good and that no other Answer could be made but by admitting some Word of God unwritten to assure us of this Point B. Indeed here you read out of a Booke which § 18 you called your owne a large Discourse upon this Argument But surely I so untied the knot of the Argument that I set you to your Book againe For your selfe confesse that against this you read what you had formerly written Well! what ere you read there certaine it is you do a great deale of wrong to M. Hooker a L. 3 §. 8. and my selfe that because we call it a Supposed or Presumed Principle among Christians you should fall by and by into such a b Whereas Bellarm. sayes expresly that in the Controversies betweene you and us Non agitur de Metaphysicis subtilitatibus quae sinc periculo ignorari interdum cum laude oppugnari possunt c. Bellarm. Praefat. Operibus praefix §. 3. Metaphysicall Discourse to prove That that which is a c His omnibus Questionibut praemittenda est Controversia de Verbo Dei Neque enim disputari potest nisi priùs in aliquo Communi Principio cum Adversariis conveniamus Convenit autem inter nos omues omninò Haereticos Verbum Dei esse Regulam fidei ex quâ de Dogmatibus judicandum sit esse Commune Principium ab omnibus concessum unde Argumenta ducantur c. Bellarm. Praefat. Operib prafix §. ult And if it be Commune Principium ab omnibus concessum then I hope it must be taken as a thing supposed or as a Praecognitum in this Dispute betweene us Praecognitum fore-knowne in Science must be of such light that it must be knowne of and by it selfe alone and that the Scripture cannot be so knowne to be the Word of God I will not now enter againe into that Discourse having said enough already how farre the Beame which is very glorious especially in some parts of Scripture gives light to prove it selfe You see neither Hooker nor I nor the Church of England for ought I know leave the Scripture alone to manifest it selfe by the light which it hath in it selfe No but when the present Church hath prepared and led the way like a preparing Morning-Light to Sun-shine then indeed we settle for our Direction but not upon the first opening of the morning Light but upon the Sun it selfe Nor will I make needlesse enquiry how farre and in what manner a Praecognitum or Supposed Principle in any Science may be proved in a Higher to which that is subordinate or accepted in a Prime Nor how it may in Divinity where Prae as well as Post-cognita things fore as well as after-knowne are matters and under the manner of Faith and not of Science strictly Nor whether a Praecognitum a presupposed Principle in Faith which rests upon Divine Authority must needs have as much and equall Light to Naturall Reason as Prime Principles have in Nature while they rest upon Reason Nor whether it may justly bee denied to have sufficient Light because not equall Your owne Schoole †Colligitur apertà ex
esso non potest hos esse Libros Canonicos Wal. Doct. fid l. 2. a. 2. c. 20. cui subesse non potest falsum into which no falshood can come but by a Divine Testimony This Testimony is absolute in Scripture it selfe delivered by the Apostles for the Word of God and so sealed to our Soules by the operation of the Holy Ghost That which makes way for this as an b Canus Loc. l. 2 c. 8. facit Ecclesiam Causam sine quanon Introduction and outward motive is the Tradition of the present Church but that neither simply Divine nor sufficient alone into which we may resolve our Faith but only as is †§. 16. before expressed And now to come close to the Particular The time was before this miserable Rent in the Church of Christ which I thinke no true Christian can looke upon but with a bleeding heart that you and Wee were all of One Beliefe That beliefe was tainted in tract and corruption of times very deepely A Division was made yet so that both Parts held the Creed and other Common Principles of Beliefe Of these this was one of the greatest †Inter omnes penè constat aut certè id quod satis est inter me illos cum quibus nunc agitur convenit hoc c. Sic in aliâ Causá cont Manichaos S. Aug. L. de Mor. Eccl. Cath. c. 4. That the Scripture is the VVord of God For our beliefe of all things contained in it depends upon it Since this Division there hath beene nothing done by us to discredit this Principle Nay We have given it all honour and ascribed unto it more sufficiency even to the containing of all things necessary to salvation with * Vin. Lir. cont Hares c. 2. Satis super que enough and more then enough which your selves have not done do not And for begetting and setling a Beliefe of this Principle we goe the same way with you and a better besides The same way with you Because we allow the Tradition of the present Church to be the first induceing Motive to embrace this Principle onely we cannot goe so farre in this way as you to make the present Tradition alwayes an Infallible VVord of God unwritten For this is to goe so farre in till you be out of the way For Tradition is but a Lane in the Church it hath an end not only to receive us in but another after to let us out into more open and richer ground And We go a better way then you Because after we are moved and prepared and induced by Tradition we resolve our Faith into that Written Word and God delivering it in which we finde materially though not in Termes the very Tradition that led us thither And so we are sure by Divine Authority that we are in the way because at the end we find the way proved And doe what can be done you can never settle the Faith of man about this great Principle till you rise to greater assurance then the Present Church alone can give And therefore once againe to that known place of S. Augustine * Contr. Epist. Fund c. 5. The words of the Father are Nisi commoveret Vnlesse the Authority of the Church mooved me but not alone but with other Motives eâ—…se it were not commovere to move together And the other Motives are Resolvers though this be Leader Now since we goe the same way with you so farre as you goe right and a better way then you where you go wrong we need not admit any other Word of God then We doc And this ought to remaine as a Presupposed Principle among all Christians and not so much as come into this Question about the sufficiency of Scripture betweene you and us But you say that F. From this the Lady called us and desiring to heare VVhether the Bishop would grant the Romane Church to be the Right Church The B. granted That it was B One occasion which mooved Tertullian to § 20 write his Booke de Praescript adversùs Haereticos was That he * Pamel in Summar Lib Uiaens Disputationibus â—…ihil ant parum profici saw little or no Profit come by Disputations Sure the Ground was the same then and now It was not to deny that Disputation is an Opening of the Vnderstanding a sifting out of Truth it was not to affirme that any such Disquisition is in and of it selfe unprofitable If it had S. Stephen a Acts 6 9. would not have disputed with the Cyrenians nor S. Paul with the b Acts. 9. 29. Grecians first and then with the Iewes c Acts 19. 17. and all Commers No sure it was some Abuse in the Disputants that frustrated the good of the Disputation And one Abuse in the Disputants is a Resolution to hold their own though it â—…e by unworthy means and disparagement d Debilitaetur generosa indoles conjecta in argutias Sen. Aep 48. of truth And so I finde it here For as it is true that this Question was asked so it is altogether false that it was asked in this * Here A. C. hath nothing to say but that the Iesuite did not affirme That the Lady askâ—…d this Question in this or any other precise forme No why the words preceding are the Iesuites own Therefore if these were not the Ladies words he wrongs her not I him forme or so Answâ—…red There is a great deale of Difference especially as Romanists handle the Question of the Church between The Church and A Church and there is some betvveene a True Church and a Right Church vvhich is the vvord you use but no man else that I knovv I am sure not I. For The Church may import in our Language The only true Church and perhaps as some of you seeme to make it the Root and the Ground of the Catholike And this I never did grant of the Romane Church nor ever meane to doe But A Church can imply no more then that it is a member of the Whole And this I never did nor ever will deny if it fall not absolutely away from Christ. That it is a True Church I granted also but not a Right as you impose upon me For Ens and Verum Being and True are convertible one with another and every thing that hath a Being is truly that Being which it is in truth of Substance But this word Right is not so used but is referd more properly to perfection in Conditions And in this sense every thing that hath a true and reall Being is not by and by Right in the Conâ—…itions of it A man that is most dishonest and unworthy the name a very Thiefe if you will is a True man in the verity of his Essence as he is a Creature endued with Reason for this none can steale from him nor he from himselfe but Death But he is not therefore a Right or an upright man And a Church that is
est aut quaelibet alia Ecclesiae communis Generalis Hispaniâ—… Galliciae Synodus celebretur c. Conc. Tolet. 4. Can. 3. They Decree That if there happen a Cause of Faith to be setled a Generall that is a Nationall Synod of all Spaine and Gallicia shall be held thereon And this in the yeare 643. Where you see it was then Catholike Doctrine in all Spaine that a Nationall Synod might be a Competent Iudge in a Cause of Faith And I would faine know what Article of the Faith doth more concerne all Christians in generall then that of Filioque And yet the Church of Rome her selfe made that Addition to the Creed without a Generall Councell as I have shewed e §. 24. Nu. 2. already And if this were practised so often and in so many places why may not a Nationall Councell of the Church of England doe the like as Shee did For Shee cast off the Pope's Vsurpation and as much as in her lay restored the King to his right That appeares by a a The Institution of a Christian man printed An. 1534. Booke subscribed by the Bishops in Henry the eight's time And by the b In Synodo Londinâ—…nsi Sess. 8. Die Veneris 29. Ianuarii An. 1562. Records in the Arch-bishop's Office orderly kept and to be seene In the Reformation which came after our c And so in the Reformation under Hezekiah 2. Chron. 29 under Iosia 4 Reg. 23. And in the time of Reccarcdus King of Spaine the Reformation there proceeded thus Quùm gloriosissimus Princeps omnes Regiminâ—… sui Pontifices in unum convenire mandâ—…sset c. Conâ—…il Tolet. 3. Can. 1. Cùm convemssemus Sacerdotes Domini apud urbem Toletanâ—… ut Râ—…giis imperiis atque jussis commoniti c. Concil Tolet. 4. in princ apud Caraâ—…zam And boâ—…h these Synods did treat of Matters of Faith Princes had their parts and the Clergy theirs And to these Two principally the power and direction for Reformation belongs That our Princes had their parts is manifest by their Calling together of the Bishops and others of the Clergie to consider of that which might seeme worthy Reformation And the Clergie did their part For being thus called together by Regall Power they met in the Nationall Synod of sixty two And the Articles there agreed on were afterwards confirmed by Acts of State and the Royall Assent In this Synod the Positive Truths which are delivered are more then the Polemicks So that a meere Calumnie it is That we professe only a Negative Religion True it is and we must thanke Rome for it our Confession must needs containe some Negatives For we cannot but deny that Images are to be adored Nor can we admit Maimed Sacraments Nor grant Prayers in an unknowne tongue And in a corrupt time or place 't is as necessary in Religion to deny falshood as to assert and vindicate Truth Indeed this latter can hardly be well and sufficiently done but by the former an Affirmative Verity being ever included in the Negative to a Falshood As for any Errour which might fall into this as any other Reformation if any such can be found then I say 't is most true Reformation especially in Cases of Religion is so difficult a worke and subject to so many Pretensions that 't is almost impossible but the Reformers should step too farre or fall too short in some smaller things or other which in regard of the farre greater benefit comming by the Reformation it selfe may well be passed over and borne withall But if there have beene any wilfull and grosse errours not so much in Opinion as in Fact †Quisquis occasione hujus Legis quam Regesterra Christo servientes ad emendandam vestram impietatem promulgaverunt res proprias vestras cupide appetit displicet nobis Quisquis denique ipsas res pauperum vel Baâ—…licas Congregationum c. non per Iustitiam sed per Avaritiamtenet displicet nobis S. Aug. Epist. 48. versus finem Sacriledge too often pretending to reforme Superstition that 's the Crime of the Reformers not of the Reformation and they are long since gone to God to answer it to whom I leave them But now before I go off from this Point I must put you in remembrance too That I spake at that time and so must all that will speak of that Exigent of the Generall Church as it was for the most part forced under the Government of the Romane Sea And this you understand well enough For in your very next words you call it the Romane Church Now I make no doubt but that as the Vniversall Catholike Church would have reform'd her selfe had she beene in all parts freed of the Romane Yoke so while she was for the most in these Westerne parts under that yoke the Church of Rome was if not the Onely yet the Chiefe Hindrance of Reformation And then in this sense it is more then cleare That if the Romane Church will neither Reform nor suffer Reformation it is lawfull for any other Particular Church to Reform it selfe so long as it doth it peaceably and orderly and keeps it selfe to the Foundation and free from * And this a Particular Church may doe but not a Schisme For a Schisme can never be peaceable nor orderly and seldome free from Sacriledge Out of which respects it may be as well as for the grâ—…evousnesse of the Crime S. Aug. cals it Sacrilegium Schismatis L. 1 de Bapt. cont Donat. c. 8. For usually they go together Sacriledge F. I asked Quo Iudice did this appeare to bee so VVhich Question I asked as not thinking it equity that Protestants in their own Cause should be Accusers VVitnesses and Iudges of the Romane Church B You doe well to tell the reason now why you § 25 asked this Question For you did not discover it at the Conference if you had you might then have received your Answer It is most true No man in common equity ought to be suffered to be Accuser Witnesse and Iudge in his owne Cause But is there not as little reason and equity too that any man that is to be accused should be the Accused and yet VVitnesse and Iudge in his owne Cause If the first may hold no man shall be Innocent and if the last none will be Nocent And what doe we here with in their owne Cause against the Romane Church Why Is it not your owne too against the Protestant Church And if it be a Cause common to both as certaine it is then neither Part alone may be Iudge If neither alone may judge then either they must be judged by a * §. 21. Nu. 9. Third which stands indifferent to both and that is the Scripture or if there be a jealousie or Doubt of the sense of the Scripture they must either both repaire to the Exposition of the Primitive Church and submit to that or both call and submit to a Generall
Puente La Convenientia de las dâ—…s Monarquias Catolicas la de la Iglesia Romana y la del Imperiâ—… Espaniol y 〈◊〉 de la prâ—…dentia de los Reyes Catolicos de Espania a tâ—…dos los Reyes dâ—…l mundâ—… a Spanish Friar followes the same resemblance betweene the Monarchies of Rome and Spaine in a Tract of his intitled The Agreement of the two Catholike Monarchies and Printed in Spanish in Madrid Anno 1612. In the Frontispice or Title Page of this Booke there are set out two Scutchions The one bearing the Crosse-Keyes of Rome The other the Armes of Castile and Leon both joyned together with this Motto In vinculo pacis in the bond of peace On the one side of this there is a Portraiture resembling Rome with the Sunne shining over it and darting his beames on S. Peters Keyes with this Inscription * Luminare Majus ut prâ—…sit Vrbiâ—… Orbi Luminare Majus the greater Light that it may governe the City that is Rome and the whole world And on the other side there 's another Image designing Spaine with the Moone shining over that and spreading forth its Raies upon the Spanish Scutchion with this Impresse †Luminare Minus ut subdatur Vrbi dominetur Orbi Luminare minus the lesse Light that it may be subject to the City of Rome he meanes and so be Lord to governe the whole world besides And over all this in the top of the Title-Page there is Printed in Capitall Letters Fecit Deus duo Luminaria magna God made two great Lights There followes after in this Author a Discovery at large of this Blazoning of these Armes but this is the Substance of it and abundantly enough to shew what is aimed at by whom and for whom And this Booke was not stollen out without the will and consent of the State For it hath Printed before it all manner of Licence that a Booke can well have For it hath the approbation of Father Pedro de Buyza of the Company of the lesuites Of Iohn de Arcediano Provinciall of the Dominicans Of Diego Granero the Licencer appointed for the supreme Councell of the Inquisition And some of these revised this booke by a Por Orden de los Seniores del Conseso Supremo Order from the Lords of that Councell And last of all the b Por Mandade del Rey nucstro Senior Kings Priviledge is to it with high Commendation of the Worke. But the Spanyards had need looke to it for all this least the French deceive them For now lately Friar Campanella hath set out an Eclogue upon the Birth of the Dolphin and that Permissu Superiorum by Licence from his Superiors In which he sayes expresly c Quum Gallia alat 20000000 hominum Ex singulis centenis sumendo unum colligit 200000. strenuorum militum stipendiatorum commodè perpetuoque Propterea omnes terrae Principes metuunt nunc magis à Gallia quà m unquam ab aliis Paratur enim illi Regnum Vniversale F. Tho. Campanellae Ecloga in Principis Galliarum Delphini Nativitatem cum Annot. Discip. Parisiis 1639. cum permissu Superiorum That all the Princes are now more afraid of France then ever for that there is provided for it Regnum Vniversale The Vniversall Kingdome or Monarchy But t is time to Returne For A. C. in this passage hath beene very Carefull to tell us of a Parliament A. C. p. 60. and of Living Magistrates and Iudges besides the Law-Bookes Thirdly therefore the Church of England God be thanked thrives happily under a Gracious Prince and well understands that a Parliament cannot be called at all times And that there are visible Iudges besides the Law-Bookes and One Supreme long may he be and be happy to settle all Temporall differences which certainly he might much better performe if his Kingdomes were well rid of A. C. and his fellowes And she believes too That our Saviour Christ hath left in his Church besides his Law-booke the Scripture Visible Magistrates and Iudges that is Archbishops and Bishops under a gracious King to governe both for Truth and Peace according to the Scripture and her owne Canons and Constitutions as also those of the Catholike Church which crosse not the Scripture and the Iust Laws of the Realme * Non est necesse ut sub Christo sit Unus Rector totius Ecclesiâ—… sed sussicit quòd sint plures regentes diversas provincias sicut sunt plures Reges gubernantes plura regna Ocham Dial. L. 2. Tract x. p. 1. c. 30. ad 1. But she doth not believe there is any Necessity to have one Pope or Bishop over the Whole Christian world more then to have one Emperor over the whole World Which were it possible She cannot thinke fit Nor are any of these intermediate Iudges or that One which you would have Supreme Infallible But since a Kingdome and a Parliament please A. C. so well to patterne the Church by I 'le follow him in the A. C. p. 60. way he goes and be bold to put him in minde that in some Kingdomes there are divers Businesses of greatest Consequence which cannot be finally and bindingly ordered but in and by Parliament And particularly the Statute Lawes which must bind all the Subjects cannot be made and ratified but there Therefore according to A. Cs. owne Argument there will be some Businesses also found Is not the setling of the Divisions of Christendome one of them which can never be well setled but in a †Propter defectum Conciliorum Generalium totius Ecclesiâ—… qua sola audet intrepidè corrigere omnes ea mala qua Vniversalem tangunt Ecclesiam manentia diu incorrecta crescunt c. Gerson Declar at Defectuum Uirâ—… 〈◊〉 To. 1. p. 209. Generall Councell And particularly the making of Canons which must binde all Particular Christians and Churches cannot be concluded and established but there And againe as the Supreme Magistrate in the State Civill may not abrogate the Lawes made in Parliament though he may Dispense with the Sanction or penalty of the Law quoad hic nunc as the Lawyers speake So in the Ecclesiasticall Body no Bishop no not the Pope where his Supremacie is admitted hath power to * Sunt enim Indissolubilia Decreta quibus reverentia debita est Prosper cont Collatorem c. 1. And Turrecremata who saies every thing that may be said for the Popes Supremacy yet dares not say Papam posse revocare tollere omnia Statuta Generalium Conciliorum sed Aliqua tantum Io. de Turrecre Summa de Ecclesiâ L. 3. c. 55. Et postea Papa non potest revocare Decreta primorum quatuor Conciliorum quia non sunt nisi Declarativa Articulorum Fidei Ibid. c. 57. ad 2 um disanull or violate the true and Fundamentall Decrees of a Generall Councell though he may perhaps dispense in some Cases with some Decrees By all which it
Trent opposed this word realiter Figmento Calvinistico to the Calvinisticâ—…ll figment Ibid. Bellarmine confesses it For hee saith Protestants do often grant that the true and reall Body of Christ is in the Eucharist But he adds That they never say so farre as he hath read That it is there â—…ruly and Really unlesse they speake of the Supper which shall be in Heaven Well first if they grant that the true and Reall Body of Christ is in that Blessed Sacrament as Bellarmine confesses they doe and 't is most true then A. C. is false who charges all the Protestants with deniall or doubtfulnesse in this Point And A. C. p 65. secondly Bellarmine himselfe also shewes here his Ignorance or his Malice Ignorance if he knew it not Malice if he would not know it For the Calvinists at least they which follow Calvine himself do not onely believe that the true and reall Body of Christ is received in the Eucharist but that it is there and that we partake of it verè realiter which are b Calv. in 1. Cor. 10. 3. verè c. in 1. Cor. 11. 24. realiter Vids suprà Num. 3. Calvine's owne words and yet Bellarmine boldly affirmes that to his reading no one Protestant did ever affirme it And I for my part cannot believe but Bellarmine had read Calvine and very carefully he doth so frequently and so mainly Oppose him Nor can that Place by any Art be shifted or by any Violence wrested from Calvine's true meaning of the Presence of Christ in and at the blessed Sacrament of the Fucharist to any Supper in Heaven whatsoever But most manifest it is that Quod legerim for ought I have read will not serve Bellarmine to Excuse him For he himselfe but in the very c Bellar. L. 1. de Eucharistia c. 1. §. Secundo docet Chapter going before quotes foure Places out of Calvine in which he sayes expresly That we receive in the Sacrament the Body and the Blood of Christ Verè truly So Calvine sayes it foure times and Bellarmine quotes the places and yet he sayes in the very next Chapter That never any Protestant said so to his Reading And for the Church of England nothing is more plaine then that it believes and teaches the true and reall Presence of Christ in the * The Body of Christ is given taken and eaten in the Supper of the Lord onely after an Heavenly and Spirituall manner And the meanes whereby the Body of Christ is received and eaten is Faith Eccl. Ang. Art 28. So here 's the Manner of Transubstantiation denied but the Body of Christ twice affirmed And in the prayer before Consecration thus Grant us Gracious Lord so to eat the Flesh of thy deare Sonne Jesus Christ and to drinke his Blood c. And againe in the second Prayer or Thanksgiving after Consecration thus We give thee Thanks for that thou dost vouchsafe to feed us which have duly received these holy Mysteries with the spirituall food of the most precious Body and Blood of thy Sonne our Saviour Jesus Christ c. Eucharist unlesse A. C. can make a Body no Body and Blood no Blood as perhaps he can by Transubstantiation as well as Bread no Bread Wine no Wine And the Church of England is Protestant too So Protestants of all sorts maintain a true and reall Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and then where 's any known or damnable Heresie here As for the Learned of those zealous men that died in this Cause in Q. Maries dayes they denied not the Reall Presence simply taken but as their Opposites forced Transubstantiation upon them as if that and the Reall Presence had beene all one Whereas all the Ancient Christians ever believed the one and none but moderne and superstitious Christians believe the other If they do believe it for I for my part doubt they do not And as for the Vnlearned in those times and all times their zeale they holding the Foundation may eat out their Ignorances and leave them safe Now that the Learned Protestants in Q. Maries dayes did not denie nay did maintaine the Reall Presence will manifestly appeare For when the Commissioners obtruded to Io. Frith the Presence of Christ's naturall Body in the Sacrament and that without all figure or similitude Io. Frith acknowledges †Io. Fox Marâ—…rolog To. 2. London 1597. pag. 943. That the inward man doth as verily receive Christ's Body as the outward man receives the Sacrament with his Mouth And he addes a Fox ibid. That neither side ought to make it a necessary Article of Faith but leave it indifferent Nay Archbishop Cranmer comes more plainely and more home to it then Frith For if you understand saith b Cranmer apud Fox ibid. p. 1301. he by this word Really Reipsâ that is in very deed and effectually so Christ by the Grace and efficacy of his Passion is indeed and truly present c. But if by this word Really you understand c I say Corporalitèr Corporally for so Bellarmine hath it expresly Quod autem Corporalitèr propriè sumatur Sanguis Caro c. probari potest omnibus Argumentis c. Bellar. L. 1. de Eucharist c. 12. §. Sed tota And I must bee bold to tell you more then That this is the Doctrine of the Church of Rome For I must tell you too that Bellarmine here contradicts himselfe For he that tels us here that it can be proved by many Arguments that we receive the Flesh and the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist Corporaliter said as expresly before had he remembred it that though Christ be in this Blessed Sacrament verè realiter yet saith he non dicemus Corporaliter i. e. co modo quo suâ naturâ existunt Corpora c. Bellar. L. 1. de Euchar. c. 2. §. Tertia Regula So Bellarm. here is in a notorious Contradiction Or els it will follow plainly out of him That Christ in the Sacrament is existent one way and received another which is a grosse absurdity And that Corporaliter was the Doctrine of the Church of Rome and meant by Transubstantiation is farther plaine in the Booke called The Institution of a Christian man set forth by the Bishops in Convocation in Hen. 8. time An 1534 Cap. Of the Sacrament of the Altar The words 〈◊〉 Unaâ—…r the forme and figure of Bread and Wine the very Body and Blood of Christ is Corporally really c. exhibited and received c. And Aquinas expresses it thus Quia tamen substantia Corporis Christi realiter non dâ—…iditur à sua quantitate dimensivâ ab aliis 〈◊〉 â—…bus indè est quod ex virealis Concomitantiae est in hoc Sacramento tota quantitas dimensiva Corporis Christi omnia Accidentia ejus Tho. p. 3. q. 76. Ar. 4. c. Corporaliter Corporally in his naturall and Organicall Body under the Formes of Bread and Wine 't