their schoole and vnto a more higher Philosophie If they thinke that we must entreat of such matters with more greater grauitie modestie I deny not that we can entreate of the word of God with to great honour and reuerence But I would that they had aswel the consideration that the word of God is not so seuere but y it hath his merry conceits sports honest games merry iests words couenable most agreeing to his grace Maiestie And he y will trye proue it let him consider how GOD himselfe and Iesus Christ that greate celestiall Orator doth speake sometime either in rebuking his Disciples or the Hipocrites and reprobate and among those which the Lord did speake without heaping together a great many of examples that they would onely marke and behold what answere Ioas the father of Gedeon dyd make vnto the Burgesses and Citizens of the towne who complayned to him of his sonne which had pulled downe and destroyed the Idoll of Baal and his Aulter And the wordes that Ely had with the Prophets of Baal What mocked did he giue them And Fsay in lyke manner against the Babilonians and their Idolles Who yet neuerthelesse were both of them graue very seuere Prophets And in the booke of wisedome and in Baruch and in the Epistle attributed vnto Ieremy I will leaue off to alleage the examples of so many good auncient Doctors who in their bookes and by their writings haue so much iested and mocked at the superstitions and Idolatries of the Panâ—ns which had more greater reason and appearaunce then those against whome we doe at this time fight He that will not beléeue me let him read their workes chiefely of Tertulian Eusebius Lactantius Augustine Hierome and other lyke vpon all those that they haue written against the Panâ—ns and Heretickes Wherefore then shall not that bée permitted vs in Dialogues which we rebuke not in those great men when they haue spoken it in their owne person the which requireth more grauitie then if they did bringe in other men speaking and disputing together as I doe in my Dialogues disputacions For ther is none of a good iudgement but that he vnderstandeth very well that in the phrase of writing there is no greater libertie and licence in Poetry then Dialogues and talkes For they must bring in the persons speaking according to him whom they represent who oftentimes do speake more after their sence and of the persons whom they doe iest at then according or after the same of the authour Although that the author hath willingly vsed to choose some one by whom he giueth to vnderstande what is his opinion and the best sentence Therfore I haue brought in foure men of diuers qualitis and opinions and doe make them to speake according to the matters which are talked off at this daye among men and according to the nature and affection of euery one of them I haue brought in one as a man very deuout and searing God which neuerthelesse is yet altogether wrapped in supersticion and errour and maynteineth mans traditions but not wilfully I haue brought in an other which is not yet fully assured and set downe neyther on the one side nor on the other but is troubled in his conscience and knoweth not very well whom to beleeue but runneth on the one side and â—n the other and yet neuerthelesse desireth to know the truth and he enquireth and knoweth already many abuses wherefore he speaketh a lyttle more ioyfully and careth not so much for mans traditions and is not so affectioned after them nor so seuere as the first who is yet altogether rooted in these olde superstitions Afterwards commeth one who representeth the person of a graue honest man skilfull in y heauenly and humaine letters which speaketh dayly with great honour and reuerence of the word of God and absolueth the questions and maters alleaged of the one side and of the other according to the sentences of the holy Scriptures and auncient Ecclesiasticall Doctors And for the fourth there is one which is a little more talkatiue then this and a lyttle more giuen to speake fréely agaynst the abuses but he doth it with more greater modestie honestie then the Caphards doe speake against the ministers and louers of the truth I doe sayne this man to haue more skill or knowledge in humayne letters then the others and which speaketh willyngly and ioyfully but in such sort that he playeth in earnest and sayth nothing but to the dishonour of Antechrist for to magnifie Iesus Christ that he is content to be corrected by his companion if any thing be to be blamed Wherefore if any man would saeme to cauill because it séemeth vnto him some time that this man playeth the parte of a mocker and that he mingleth the humayne letters Histories and Poetryes with the diuine let him consider the person whom he representetâ— that he doth not speake any thing so absurde nor so straunge but that it serueth to the presente matter and lette him not vere himselfe anye more Furthermore if Saint Paul by occasion hath sometime alleaged the witnesse of the Panuns yea of Poets for to serue to his matter and if the auncient Doctors of the Church of whom I haue already spoken off haue yet done more and their booke haue serued them so well for to confounde them themselues and to vanquish them of their errours and to shew vnto them more cléerely the truth vertue of our relygion Insomuch that Iulian the Apostate in spite of his beard was constrayned to forbid the Christians to reade them he ought not to thinke it straunge if I do follow their example in lyke things chiefely when I wyll shew plainly and openly before all mens eyes how the superstitions and Idolatryes of the Christians were taken from the Panims and Idolaters and altogether lyke or worse I doe not alleage them for that Gods truth is not sufficient of it selfe to allowe and maynteyne it selfe but for to make all thinges to serue him and for to make the lyght the better to bée knowne from darkenesse the truthe from lyinge and the better to vanquish and ouercome the shamelessé seducers who would yet hide and couer theire heresies and abhominations if one doe not shew them forth with the finger and except one doe take them as the theefe vppon his theft and robbery and the shamelesse whore with hir whoredome And if there be any yet which will not be contented with those resons I will shew vnto him such an excuse and defence as Mantuan did make for himselfe in a matter almost lyke saying Thinke not that I am to be rebuked bicause that I haue recourse to the authoritie of an heathen man For Saint Augustine which is one of our Doctors sayth If the Philosophers haue said any thing confirmable vnto our fayth we must not auoyd them nor feare them but
the Iudge vnto whom they haue appealled and which in stéede to be iudged of him they would iudge him Theophilus Stay a while Eusebius Thou hast not yet gotten or obteyned thy sute Thinke not that wée are become Papistes sithens that we haue spoken vnto thée And that we woulde attribute vnto our selues authority power and iudgment aboue the spirite of God as he doth wée doe leaue that office vnto Antechrist to whom alone it apperteineth We haue not vsed to reproue one onelye stllable of the holy Scriptures But if we discerne put difference betwéene the bookes that are Canonical those that are Apocripha thou oughtest not to accuse vs therefore except thou doe by that same reason render culpable of the like crime the auncient Doctors of the Church chiefely Sainct Hierome and in like manner your decrées and Canons whiche doe seperate those that are Canonicall from those that bée Apocrapha amongst whiche they doe put the bookes of the Machabees Eusebius I confesse that amonge the Iewes it hathe not bene receiued for Canonicall in theyr Sinagogue but it hathe not bene therefore reiected of the Church Wherefore I conclude that those that beny that they are not canonicall are not the sonnes of the Church but bastardes of the Sinagogue Hillarius Thou hast at the leaste kepte that same of â—ccius Behold one shot of his Canons Theophilus If it be so Wherefore then did not S. Hierom enroul it among the Canonicals in that prolegne in whiche be hath recited them all in order doest thou thinke that he would haue rather omitted these here then the other And in the prologue that hee calleth Galeatus which he hath set before the bookes of the Kings both hee not make expresse mention of those bookes amenge the Apocriphas and principally of the second out of y which the place by thée alleged is taken For hee saith that hée hath founde the first written in Hebrew But not the seconde the which hath bene onely written in Greeke The whiche thing as he saith may proue it selfe by the pâ—rase and manner of the speaking the which hée vsed To the which agréeth well that which hee writing against the Pelagians nameth Ioseph for the author of the historye of the Machabees vnderstanding that by him it was written Then if by the testimonye and witnes of Sainct Hierome that history hath bene written by Ioseph bâ—ée ought not to estéeme it to be of more greater authority theÌ„ the other bookes of Ioseph the which we do reade â— no receiue as histories very profitable But a greate deale wantoth that we should attribute vnto them so much authoritie as vnto those the whiche we doe knowe without all doubt to be y body of y holy Scripture Therefore said S. Hierome in the Prologne that hee made before the booke of the Prouerâ—es of Salomon The Church doth read the bookes of the Machabees but shee receineth them net among the Canonical Eusebius Then wherfore hath Sainct Augustin written that the Church holdeth them as Canonicall Theophilus Consider well how he hath writen in that same place which thou alledgest speaking of the number of the times which haue bene sithence the returning from Babilon vntill the comming of Iesus Christe Did he not write that the account and number of them are not found in the holy Scriptures which are called Canonicall but in the other among which are the bookes of the Machabees Doest thou not sée and perceiue that he seperateth those bookes from the body of the holy Scriptures Eusebius Wherfore dost thou cut off fthe tayle why dost thou not adde that which followeth afterwardes The whiche sayth hée the Iewes hold not for Canonical but the Church doth Theophilus But doth he not adde by and by the reason wherefore the which serueth to my purpose Eusebius Hee sayth that it is bicause of the vehement and merueilous passions of some Martirs whiche haue fought euen vnto deathe for the lawe of GOD before that Iesus Christ came in the fleshe and suffred griefes and horrible torments Theophilus He vnderstandeth by those Martirs the seuen brothers of the Machabees with their mother who loued rather that Antiochus shoulde dismember and torment them cruelly then they would obely his commaundements for to violate the law of god It is easie to vnderstand by those words that the Church hath not receiued those bookes in suche authoritie as those which haue bene holden alwaie sin the Prophetical Apostolical church nor to be sufficient for to allow confirme or for to builde any doctrine which ought to be holeÌ„ for an article of faith for to vanquish the hereticks But only in such stéede as we haue at this day the ecclesiastical histories legends of martirs not a heape of foolish fabulous legends made by a heape of dreaming and deceiuing Caphards and Moonks as are the liues of the fathers the golden legend and other like more worthy to be numbred with the Roman of Fierobras Orson Valentine the erring kinghtes Mandeuill or the true narrations of Lutian and others like made for pleasure then among the Ecclesiasticall histories But they haue bene in suche reputacion among the wise men as the bookes of Iosephus Eusebius Sozomenus Theodoritus Socrates and such other whiche haue written the Ecclesiasticall histories and the liues of Martyrs for to keepe the remembraunce in the Churche as in a Chornicle for to edifie and comforte with good examples But not that they are of such authoritie that they are sufficient for to sette foorth anye newe doctrine of whiche wee haue no certeine witnes in the Apoostlicall doctrine And that it is euen so as I doe saye I will not proue it by anye other witnes then by the same whiche thou bringest foorth against mee That is to saye Sainct Augustin who hath written in an other place after this manner saying The Iewes haue not the scripture of the Machabees as the Law the Prophets and Psalmes to the which the Lord Iesus rendereth witnes as vnto this witnesses saying All must bee fulfilled whiche are written of mée in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets nad in the Psalmes But that Scripture is receiued of the Churche not without profit if one doe reade and marke it soberly Doth hée not euidentlye declare by those wordes howe muche the authoritie of the same is abased in comparison of the others the whiche Iesus Christe taketh for witnesses Asmuche maye one gather out of an olde booke whiche contayneth the exposition of the Créede and beareth the title of Sainct Cyprian Hée plainelye sheweth that that booke holdth no palce in the auncient Churche Wherefore it is almoste folly to striue and fight so long time if it were not but that our aduersaries doe make the poore ignoraunt people beléeue that it is of the holy Scripture and that we doe deny it After that sorte haue bene allowed some bookes called the Canons oâ—
We may take it for a certeyne rule that it hath not belfe written by any Prophet or man worthy to bee accompted for such a one For the Prophets haue wrytten in their proper language to wit Hebrew or in the language of the Chaldees sithence the time of the captinite of Babilon Furthermore it is easye to knowe that that booke hath bene written longe time after the retourne of the people of Israell into Hierusalem and the age of Esdras Nehemias Aggeus Zachary Malachy sithence which wée do not read that the people of God haue had any Prophet that hath written any thing nor other bookes of a certeyne and autenticke authour Wherefore by good ryght this héere is accompted for Apocrypha And although there were no other reason for to diminishe his authoritye but the excuse whiche the authour of the sayde booke made in the ende of his worke that ought to suffice thée Reade the laste Chapter and thou shalte sée it by experience If hée had béne certeyne thorowe the spiryte of GOD that all that whiche hée hath written procéeded from him as the Prophetes and Apostles haue done wherefore shoulde hée excuse himselfe both of the stile of the manner of writinge and of the faultes that he myght haue committed If hée had bene alwayes inspired with the same spirite by which the Prophets and Apostles haue spoken he would haue spoken surely and in the authority of God as those who without excusinge themselues haue sayd The Lorde hath spoken it And Sainct Paul with what authoritie speaketh hee affirming that the Gospell whiche hee hath preached was so certeyne that although an Angell came downe from heauen for to bringe anye other vnto you he ought not to bée receiued but accursed Learne then Eusebius to discerne the bookes of the holye Scripture form the others and thinke not that the church hath holden for Canonicall that seconde booke of the Machabees but as a booke which was not altogether to bée reiected and of which it might serue the Church for declaration of the Scriptures bicause of the histories conteyned in the same whiche doe giue a certeine openinge for the intelligence of the antiquitie as the histories of Ioseph doe Yet neuerthelesse if one marke them well it shall be easle to iudge that the first and the second are not all of one authour not onely by the diuersitie of the stile 〈◊〉 also bicause that in the second are reiterated some bistories and many things which already haue bene intreales â—â— in the first and a great deale better then they are in this If one doe finde in any other booke worthy to bée credited of the olde or newe Testament any like place vnto that which thou hast alledged the argument should haue some colour by the shewe that the other would giue vnto it But forasmuch as it is alone his witnesse is not sufficient as it shoulde bée in the one of the others For God is as much to bée beléeued by one onely witnesse as by a thousand where a thousand witnesses of men without the same of God ought not to bolde any place in the religion But sithence that the superstition of the suffrages prayers for the dead hath begunne to haue crept into the Churche thys booke also hath begunne to take greate authorytie in suche sorte that it oftener is reade and songe in the Popishe Churche then those that contâ—yned more surer doctrine And thu oughtest also to vnderstand that the auncients haue sometime put a difference betweene y Canonical Apocrypha Ecclesiasticall bookes as it appeareth by the authour whiche hath expounded the Creede the which some doe thinke that it was Saint Cyprian other that it was Ruffin But whosoeuer if were of them both they are both of them very auncient and haue deuyded those bookes after that sorte Yée must know saith he that thée be other bokes after the Canonicall which are not called of the auncients of our predeâ—â—â—â—ors Canonicall but Câ—â—lessasticall as are the wisdome of Salomon and the other wysedome which is called Iesus the sonne of Syrach the which booke is among the Latins by that generall tytle called Ecclessasticus by the which woorde the author of the booke is not named but the quantie of the Scripture The booke of Toby is of the same order and of Iudith and the bookes of the Machabees the which they would that they should bée all read in the Church but they would not that they should haue bene settle foorth for to conâ—â—rme the authoritie of the fayth by them The other Scriptures they haue called Apocrypha the which they woulde not that they shoulde be read in the Churche Thou 〈◊〉 sée héere most playnelye howe that they doe attribute more authoritie vnto the Canonicall Scriptures then vnto the Eccleslasticall Scriptures and vnto the Ecclessastical more then vnto the Apocryphâ— but they haue not yet neuerthelesse estéemed those Eccleslassastical which they haue many times called apocrypha of equall and such authoritie as the diuine scriptures nor they haue called them Eccleslasticall for that cause but bicause that they were in such reputation that one niyght reade and signe them in the Churche the wâ—â—â—â— was not permitted in the auncient Churche or bicause that theyr antiquitie or holynesse of their authours added vnto them a â—yttle more authoritie then vnto the other Thomas By that accompte Eusebius then shall bée vnweapened of his principall staffe that hée thought to haue Eusebius If they would after that sort make the bookes eyther Canonicall or Apocripha at they re pleasure it is méere folly to disputs with them For all those which bée not to their mindes shall be Apocrypha Theophilus If thou wilt not be confenâ—ed with the reasons by me alledged go and plead against Sainct Hierome and your decrees If the auncients had not vsed iudgemeÌ„t and wisdome how many bookes would the hereticks haue brought into the Church vnder the name of the Prophets Apostles and of their Disciples The which they haue reâ—â—csed them following that same rule which I haue giuen vnto thée as it appeareth by your decrees which are a great rolle of them But I wil yet do more to the ende I leaue theâ— not an occasion to be miscontented w me I am content by way of disputation to put the case that y booke should be autentick of a diuine authoritie And although it were so it would serue thée yet neuerthelesse nothing at all for to proue that there is a Purgaâ—ory that we must offer for the dead to such intent and in such sort as you do make it And for to declare this vnto thée more plainly I demaund of thée for to begin first ouâ— matter in what time was that made which the history conteineth was it before the coÌ„ming of our Lord Iesus Christ or afterwards Eusebius Before Theophilus Tell me moreouer was the Purgatorye in that time such as thou beléeuest it is
pride of those exequies and funeralls which were too excessiue insomuch that many did bestow great cost about them and afterwardes they themselues wanted as it happeneth dayly to many who bestow great treasure vppon the dead and do dye with hunger in their houses nor leaue wherewith to pay their owne debtes nor those of the deade and doe keepe backe that which is due vnto the good people for to giue it to the Priestes Bicause of those torches the Latenists doe call at this day the burialls Funus bicause that they were made with cordes the which they cal Funes as they do call them yet now But the Turkes haue a better order and of more appearaunce in that then we It is very true that they haue some things lyke to our superstlcions For in the burying of the rich men and men of honour their Priestes whome they call in their language Thalassanians doe follow them a great number according to the richnesse and estate of the dead singing often times this Song and Lctany God is God and the true God Magman the Bessenger of god But they haue this goodnesse that they do cause the Binges and Princes to buylde for some of them Iemples for others Bospitalls for Sepulchers and graucs the which they enrich with great reuenewes and rentes not for to nurrish the idle priests but for to sucecur the necessitie and no dâ— of the poore and needy Eusebius All your matters are nothing but sul of mocking and slaunderinges Doth not all payne and trauayle require a rewarde Is it not good reason that the parents and friends which haue the goodes of the dead and become their heires should recompence the Pricstes somewhat Hath not Iesus Christ sayd that the Laborer is worthy of his rewarde If the Priestes would doe that without taking any thing the heires and friends should make greate chéere with the goodes of the dead and in the meane while the poore Priestes which doe trauayle for them should die of hunger And so by that meanes one shoulde finde none that would doe that office nor which woulde be a Priest Hillarius That should be a great incenuenience and very euil for the Christianitie chiefely for the poore soules of Purgatory who shoulde haue no more aduocates nor intercessors betwéene God and the Uirgin Mary for to delyuer them from those paynes Theophilus I confesse that we must not moossell the mouth of the Oxe that treadeth out the corne and it is also good reason that he that serueth the Gospell shoulde lyue of the Gospell But what trauayle doe those héere take what seruices doe they eyther to the quicke or to the dead Hillarius To eate vp and deuoure their goodes and substaunce Theophilus That which you haue alleadged is against your selfe For when Iesus Christ sayth that the workeman is worthy to haue his meate he speaketh of the Ministers of the Gospell and not of Minstrells He hath not commaunded the Christians to féede and giue meate to Minstrells for to haue them sounde in their eares but Ministers for to preach the gospel to them He letteth vs to vnderstande that we must worke and trauayle in the Ministerie of the Gospell by that that he sayth the workeman not the idle and slougthfull Afterwardes he declareth that he would not haue the Ministers of his Church couetous nor giuen to filthy lucre nor insatiable when he declareth that the meate is due to the Pastours of the Gospell but ought to content them selues as the holy Apostle to be cloto câ— nourished and kept according to their estate and condition whithout super fluity which may cause them to for get God and without to great neede which maye hinder them to exercise their office But these here do neuer cease to aâ—â—e and to catch yet they do no workes that serue for the health of men It wine a great deale better the they would shew forth ineffect the which they saye their belles do signifie then to haue beiles for to represent it They do interpret that the sound of their belles doth signifie the sound of the word of God the which they ought to preach vnto the people and that the belles do signifie the prophets and ministers of the gospell who ought to sounde in the Church of God But they do leaue all the charge vnto the belles and will not uiedle with it Haue they not well prouided for the christian people good preachers Hillarias You do not vnderstand their practise They are wyser then you thincke Mee thinckes that men cannot complaine of them as touching the office of preaching for they haue so well prouided that one cannot rebuke them It is verie true that they do not preache But they haue so many the more vicars to supply their office Haue they not the Churches full of Images For you know that their Images are lay mens and sooles bookes as they tell vs But I know not what bookes they are nor on which side they must take them to open and read in them or whether we must begin at the beginning as y Oreekes Latined Frenchmen and others like or at the end and so go backward cleane coÌ„trary to others as the Hebrewes and Caldes do Wee haue assayed them and haue taken very sharpe Batchettes and Ares for to open the leaues which are so saste stirched and glewed together that it is impossible to open and separate them a sunder except we do hew and cut them in peeces Wee haue looked beefore and behinde towardes the head and the feete the belly and the backe but we could neuer soe any letter neither to knowe whether they were written in Greeke Hebrew or Latine nor yet in what language To conclude we find nothing there but Mice Pytch Spiders and such filthyuesse But if they be the lay mennes books whereto serueth then for them preachers haue they not found them ready at hand and the most fytte as is possible to finde First of all they coulde not haue founde them more fitter for them For they doe neyther eate nor drinck nor their meate and fire costeth them any thing But which is more they nurrishe and keepe them aboute them and do well declare that they are not vicars without cause For the offrings that they receiue they make a good accompt and do pay a great reuenewe to their Curate and Byshop Du the other side should not the people haue great wronge to complaine For they are gracyous preaches They neuer rebuke any man but let euery one doe as he lisse If the prophets Apostles and ministers of the Gospell were such pleasant preachers they should not be so much hated nor euill entreated of men but men would offer vnto them candels and hysse their fâ—â—t â—s they do those But thore is a great fault in them for the which we must prouide For not withstangding that they haue goodly mouthes yet neuerthelesse they speake not because they
deade which were truely Christians And hath commaunded that the Priestes ought to make commemoration of them Dne may very well presume by that aduertisement and commaundement that which Gregory made vnto Boniface touching this matter that it is not long agoe that the Masse hath begonne to bee a sacrifice for the dead and that the institution is not so auncient as some men do thinke it to bee at the least-wise that Iesus Christ and his Apostles haue not bene the author thereoff For Boniface would not haue kept it secret in that time Wherefore I giue more credite vnto those whiche haue written that Pope Pelagius hath bene the author inuentor and promoter of those suffrages and prayers the which we sée dayly yet in vse amonge the Christians and we call them the good déedes for the dead then to any of those which haue followed the Apostles Eusebius If you had reade ouer and ruminated the auncient doctors of the Churche you shall not finde that doctrine so newe but you woulde speake otherwise and should know that the Churche hath followed it of long time before that Pelagius or Sainct Gregory were borne Wherefore then did Sainct Ambrose make mention writing of the death of the Emperour Theodosius of the first seuenth thirty and fourty day that the Churche did celebrate making remembraunce of the dead and for what cause they did the same of whome the wordes are written in the decrées after this manner Bicause that some haue vsed to obserue the thirde caye other some the seuenth and others the thirty in the office of the dead Let vs consider what thing that lesson in the scripture teacheth vs It saith After that Iacob was dead Ioseph commaunded his seruants that they should bury him And the children of Israel buried him and the forty dayes beeing accomplished for so were the daies of the burial compted they lamented seuen dayes We ought to follow that solemnitie the whâ—che the holy scripture describeth vnto vs It is also written after this manner in Deuteronomium that the children of Israel lamented Moses and did wepe thirty dayes and then the mourning was ended heth those two obseruations haue then authoritie by the which the necessary office of piety and humanity is accomplished Doe you not sée here plainely by the words of Sainct Ambrose that already in his time the Churche did the office and commemoration of the dead and did celebrate in their memory certaine dayes and yet the auncients haue not instituted them after the inutation and example of the Panyms and Idolaters as you say and affirme but after that imitation of the auncient Patriarkes and Prophets and of the people of God Theophilus I am abashed I knowe not whether I shall speake it of the ignorance mallice of your doctors For if they vnderstande that Saincte Ambrose hathe allowed that which they at this day do vphold and maintaine they do greatly erre and shewe themselues to be verye ignoraunt Also if they vnderstand his intention and meaning they are very malicious and wicked to peruerte and marre the sence of the same for to maintaine their abuses and alwayes the more to kéepe the poore people in errour Firste they well perceiue and sée that Sainct Ambrose maketh no mention neither of Purgatory nor of Masse for the dead and that that place cannot serue but for the sorrow that men take for the dead For yet in that time the Churche approched néerer vnto the puritie of the primatiue Churche and was not so muche corrupted as she hath bene afterwards sithence the time of Pope Pelagius and of Gregory the greate This then that he maketh mention of the first seuenth thirty and forty daye in his booke and sermon that hée made of the death and buriall of Theodosius is not set forth by him for to nourishe and holde the pepole in the supersticions of the Panyms as you doe but rather to draw them backe from it and for to induce and leave the Christians vnto more greater honesty and modestye to the sorrowe that they ought to haue for the dead For that cause did he propound and set foorth the example of the Israelites not that he woulde thereby make a law vnto the Christian people that they shoulde mourne seuen thyrty nor forty dayes bicause that the Israelites haue mourned so many dayes for lacob Moses Aaron and Marie their sister yet lesse for to cause Masses to be said and to banket and make the priests broken as they do dayly at the Portuaries and Anniuersaries For then he should teache the Christian people to playe the Iewes and sinne against the Christian liberty if hee woulde of all the examples of the Scripture and of the thinges done by the Israelites draw out take lawes and statutes for to commaunde them vnto the Christian people as necessarie and ordeyned of god For first of all God neuer hath defined nor determined by his lawe certaine dayes nor yet to lament and mourne for the dead nor for to make any commemoration of them as it appeareth very well by the examples asore alledged For the Israelites themselues haue not kept a certaine number of dayes at the mourninge of Iacob Moses Aaron and of Marie For they did kéepe Iacob in Aegypt fortie dayes after that hee was enbaumed and the Aegyptians bewept him Ixx dayes He was carried into Hebron afterwards his sonnes bewept him seuen dayes in Atad But Moses Aaron and Marie their sister were beewept euerye one of them thirty dayes Thou doest see alreadie here that they are not very superstitious in the dayes and that some time they haue vsed eyther more or lesse It should séeme that their ordiuary was but for seuen dayes For it is written Seuen dayes do men mourne for him that is dead but the lamentation ouer the vnwise shoulde endure all the dayes of their life But when it is for some noble personne as for a Prince or a Prophet or anye man of great estimation and renome they woulde of custome prolonge theyr mournynges vntyll thyrtie dayes But they woulde not wyliyngly passe béeyond it as wée sée here in these three examples of Moses Aaron and Marie who were bewept and lamented of the people of Israel asmuche and more then anye other euer were The mourning of Iacob was a little more loÌ„ger bycause he was carried to be buryed a great way and that they carried him from the land of Aegypt into the land of Canaan not that they esteemed the land of Canaan more holy then that of Aegypt as touching his nature or that it had any more vertue for the health of the body or soule of him that was buryed there as the superstitious Christians and poore ignorant do iudge of the earth in the churchyarde bicause that it was blessed and halowed by their Bishops and Priests But they did that for to witnes in the article of the
dead and almost all the masse of Requiem and other like prayers which seemed not to haue â—en made to any other end then to pray for y saints which are in rest This maâ—ster Dector who would find out for vs a newe manner to pray for the dead vnder â—olour of the resurrection of the coÌ„ming of Iesus Christ it came well for him for to mainteâ—â—e vphold his cause against the other Cordeliers which mocked him Thomas Of what Couent was that Frier Christofer Hillarius Of the Couent of Riue at Geneua Thomas Wherfore did he sing the Masse of Requiem for the saintes Hillarius Thou oughtest to vnderstand that he was a man so expert in Theology and so wel exercised in bookes that he knewe not very well how to reade in his owne Missell and Brauerie Wherefore he could sing but the Masse of Requiem the which with great laboure he had learned by rote of heart and it serued him as a plaister for all sores and diseases Theophilus He did better then all the others For as there is but one baptisme of Iesus Christ and not the baptisme of saint Peter of S. Paul nor of any other whatsoeuer it be so there is but one supper of Iesus Christ There is not of saint Fraunces saint Tybaud saint Roch and of other like innumerable Nowe if the Masse be in stéede of the supper there ought to bée but one and we ought not to say the Masse of saint Paul saint Iames and of other saints no more then of the supper and of the Baptisme Thomas And howe dyd he make his masse of Requiem agrée with the saints Hillarius In stéede where others doe name those in whose name they do sing the Masse in their Mementos and Oremus he dyd but chaunge the names and name those of the saints vnder the tytle of which he ought to sing Masse euen as he should haue done for one that is dead Thomas I doe vnderstand his practise nowe He was not altogether without wit. And as much y Masse of Requiem serued him all alone as all the other did to his compagnions Hillarius All one Thomas But who is that doctor of whoÌ„ thou speakest off Hillarius It is Monsiour the doubtful which is come out of the Charboâ—iere or Cole-house of Parys I would haue said from Sorbonne Thomas What is his name Hillarius I would name hym but y I feare I shal do him pleasure Thomas Pleasure nay rather displeasure Hillarius I doe not tel scorne to speake For thou oughtest to vnderstand that the man of whom I haue told thée is so much ambitious couetous of name fame that it is al one to him so that men speake of him And I beléeue that if hée coulde obteine that by any such prooues as that of Herostratus who burned the 〈◊〉 of Diana the Ephesian for to make himselfe to 〈◊〉 spoken off he woulde doe no lesse And I woulde to God that he did no worse then he For Herostratus burned a temple full of Idols which caused al Asia to commit Idolatrie But this fellowe here as the Gyants dyd would make war against the heauen fight against God burne his temple and resist the holy Ghost and the truth that he hath knowen Theophilus He hath very well declared it in all places where he hath beene But god hath alwayes confounded him with all his enterprises God haue mercy on him except he be of those which sinne vnto death for whom saint Iohn hath writteÌ„ that we must not pray for I can giue him no fitter a name then that of Ismael whose hand is against al men and al mens hands against him Hillarius It is impossible to finde out a better comparison For he could neuer agrée with any man among those with whom he hath liued dwelled whether thy were Gospellers or papistes but hath troubled them all and they haue béene constrayned to chase and driue him away from them as a plague and troubler of the Church Theophilus Therefore the true church of Iesus Christ hath béene constrayned to driue him out of hir house eueÌ„ as Sara did driue away Ismael with his mother Agar bicause that he mocked hir sonne Isaac in such manner as this fellowe here alwayes mocked the true children of god And therefore the Church could not acknoledge him for hir lawfull sonne but sent him out after his mother Agar For he is more fitter for the Sinagog then for the Church Hillarius What thinkest thou who hath induced and persuaded him to propounde so many curious vaine and vnprofitable questions for to trouble that poore church of Lausanne of which he thought to haue beene made bishop and was alreadie by his imagination Bicause that hée was already olde and that he had a gray heard I am abashed how that he could not thincke well y those subtile Sorbonists did not agrée with that poore Church the which was yet tender and newly planted and but a grasse Theophilus I doe leaue the iudgement of the heart vnto God who knoweth it But as farre as I can iudge by his workes and by his beginning procéeding and ending I cannot perceiue and vnderstand but that hée dyd it for two causes chiefly Firste to please the Papistes euen as the Apostles of the circumcision went about and endeuoured themselues to please the Iewes and to holde with them for to auoide the crosse and persecution and to haue their fauour and for to make the true Apostles of Iesus Christ more odious vnto all the world The other is for to shew himselfe and for to get the brute and report that he was a wise man more expert and of more knowledge then all other preachers and that there was none that searched out and vnderstood the holy Scripture so profoundly as hée For he was angry that he dyd sée others which had put their life in daunger for the glory of God and the edifiyng of the Church to be of some estimation towards the good And therefore he would inuent a certein new fashion proper vnto himselfe alone to the end that he should not séeme that he had brought no new thing but that he had learned some thing of others Therefore he was ashamed to follow their way and went about but to renue all things for to let men to vnderstande that all that which others had made was nothing worth but that he was the great reformer of Churches and yet neuerthelesse be toke no care to reforme the wicked manners Hillarius I haue vnderstanded that he called the good ministers skirmishers who for to aduance the gospel haue broken the first Iâ—e or giueÌ„ the first onset and which haue put their heades there where he dareth not to put his litle finger Theophilus Also he himselfe hath sayd in dispising others that he was not of those small skirmishers But it was answered him to the contray that he auailed then nothing in warre
PETRVS VIRETVS THE Christian disputations BY MASTER PETER VIRET Deuided into three partes Dialogue wise Set out with such grace that it cannot be but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff Translated out of French into English by Iohn Brooke of Ashe Math. vij d. 21. Not euery one that saith vnto me Lorde Lorde shall enter into the kingdome of Heauen but he that doth my fathers will which is in heauen MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR EÌ„ VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE ¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East 1579. To the most Reuerent Father in God EDMVND by the permission of God Archbishop of Caunterbury Primate and Metrapolitan of England Iohn Brooke wisheth in this life prosperitie and eternall felicitie in Christ our Sauiour REading for mine owne priuate exercise and studies the worthie worke of Master Peter Viret entituled The Christian disputations right Reuerent Father the sweete entrie into the same with such pleasant allurementes of comfortable matter so drewe and tolled me forwade as vnnethes I coulde cease vntill I had cleane discoursed and gone thorowe the whole worke Which hauing once accomplished and due consideration therevppon had according to my slender capacitie I thought I coulde not bestowe my time in any thing more worthy gratefull acceptaunce then in publyshing and setting foorth the same that others might bee made pertakers of my comfortable delights and delightfull comforts takeÌ„ in reading hereoff Not meaning like a chorle alone to deuoure such a rich banket furnished with so greate a number of Iunkets and delicate dishes but to inuite thervnto according to the intent of mine Author a company worthy such a feast which being first prepared and dressed very cunningly after the French fashion I haue for the great good will and zeale â—owe vnto my natiue Countrie and for their better taste translated and set foorth the same after the English manner wherein my small vnlearned skill desirous of sure supportacion and good defence craueth your grace as chiefe to giue me credite and countenaunce against the byting sting of Zoilous persons hereticall Papists whose stomacks may in no wise digest or abide the good wholesome dyet in this feast prepared whose vnsauorie tastes as I seeke not to content so I feare not to offende Trusting your grace will accept this my bolde enterprise as proceeding of heartie good will towards you and earnest loue borne vnto my countrie preferring my zealous intent and the Godlinesse of the matter vnto the vnworthinesse and slender skill shewed in the translation As I shall dayly pray vnto Almightie God to gouerne and direct your grace in all your affaires by his holy spirite remayning euer Your graces bounden during life Iohn Brooke Iohn Caluyn vnto the Readers THE loue of God our Father and the grace of our Lorde Iesus Christ be giuen to you and multiplyed from day to day thorowe the communion of the holy Ghost There is an auncient Poet which saith that he which delyteth and profiteth altogether in his writings hath gained the price and fauour towardes all men The same is spoken bicause of the diuersitie of natures It is very true that the onely doctrine wherein we knowe it to be good and profitable ought to suffice vs for to incitate and prouoke vs to reade willingly a booke to giue and bestowe thereon all our studie to loue and set by it and finally to take pleasure in it But there are a great many and well neere the most parte which will be a greate deale better pleased that one should teach theÌ„ after a gentle pleasant fashion then otherwise In such sort that as in recreating themselues they may profite receiue instruction liuen then as those which occupie themselues to make bookes of pastime vaine and friuolous which cause the world to reade them are to bee vituperated and despised although they haue no corruption in them So on the other side those which haue the grace so to teach that they doe both delight and profite the Readers thorowe their pleasant stile are double to be praysed And in very deede that is a vertue a gift which is not in al men Yea often times the wisest cannot atteine vnto it And which is more do make themselues to be laughed at in desning that which is not giuen vnto them For a man which desireth to vse mery conceits and iests ought to beware of two vices The one is that he do nothing of compulsion or laugh ouer much as there are a great many which haue cold laughters the which do seeme as though they were pulled out of their throat by force The other is not to vse baudy silthy talk the which is called in Latine scurrilitas in our language pleasant iestes But to keepe the meane that is to know how to speak effectually and with a good grace so for to recreate that there be nothing spoken foolishly at all aduentures or vncomely which is no common vertue I doe speake this by reason of these present Dialogues out of which a man may so gather good instruction and yet notwithstanding he shall haue occasion to laugh For the matter of it selfe is very pleasant And is set out with such grace that it cannot be but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff Our brother and companion in the worke of the Lord Iesus Peter Viret who is the Author hath by nature the vertue which I saide to be requisite in that man which will medle himselfe therein It is vertue true that as in all other workes he giueth himselfe vnto a better studie and of greater waight So in these Dialogues his principall intent is not to delight the eares And in verie deede that shoulde be but a small labour and a paine euill be stowed of a man of such witte and knowledge Furthermore besides the giftes that he hath of God he is called vnto a more higher calling But forasmuch as the matter that he hath taken in hand to entreate off sheweth that he teacheth by order of pastime and merrie iestes he pretendeth notwithstanding the right doctrine as the true marke to shoote at mingling with the same some merrie conceites as a companion therewith all Yea in such sort that this booke is a suffient witnes that be hath a singuler dextentie to doe it yea euen as much as he will himselfe that is to say as much as is needefull or conuenient I doe knowe that it is a daungerous thing and that no man ought at the first sight to allowe a booke But I feare not to haue any rebuke of good men of such as are of sounde Iudgement to haue commended the reading of that booke as a booke in which the time shal be wel bestowed I neede not to bring witnes nor to speake among those which know the man This onely knowledge will suffice for to asâ—ure them that they cannot sayâ—e to stay themselues vpon it But bicause that it may
then to reade in the holye Scriptures the which they dare not touch Or if they desire some time to drincke of it that is as the dogge doth at the floud Nilus They doe but sucke in the water hastely as though they were afrayde to touch it and that there were in it Crocodiles They wyll touch it as a Cat doth hotte coales I doe not condemne the reading of good Authours and of Poets Oratours and Philosophers the which may serue vs to the glorie of God if first of all we be well instructed in the Christian religion But I can not allowe but greatly condempne those whiche altogeather gyue themselues vnto suche Authours or to others a greate deale worse and make none accompte of the holy Bible and diuine bookes to which all other Sciences and disciplines ought to serue and to whiche they ought to be preferred Shall we not iudge him a foole out of his wyt which will alwayes staye in his Grammer and in the principles and rules of the same and despyse the studye of other liberall Artes and of Philosophie and wyll in no wyse meddle wyth them nor exercise himselfe in speakinge nor yet in writinge fearinge to forget and lose those rules and groundes of Grammer Who wyll not iudge such a man to bee madde sith that the Grammer yea the Rethoricke whatsoeuer prayse that Cicero giueth vnto it And the Logicke also are not but as handmaydens and seruauntes vnto other disciplines the whiche men doe learne for to serue vnto them Wée doe nowe mocke the barberous schole masters which wee haue had which coulde reade vnto vs but doctrinall of Alexander and doe holde vs therein all our lyfe time wythout letting vs at any time taste any good Authour insomuch that one shall neuer haue done but the thing is alwayes to beginne agayne Those some vnto me not to differ much from them For notwithstanding that they doe reade better Authours and that they doe exercise themselues to speake and wryte better Yet Neuerthelesse I esteeme not all that which they doe no more then the Grammer of Alexander or as Grecismus and Roiolis and the Logicke of Tartaret and of other Sophisters except they make all their skill and knowledge to the honour and glorye of GOD and if they mynde it vnto anye other marke or ende For otherwise whereto shall all their science and eloquence serue but to the Panims and people without God the which is more hurtfull and daungerous then profitable to the common wealth in hym which hath not the feare of God and which is not well instructed in the Christian doctrine And when they haue studyed all their lyfe time to beautifie and 〈◊〉 foorth theyr language I thincke yet neuerthelesse that a man shall not finde many amonge them which can come vnto such perfection by the which they may approch so néere vnto Gicero as that seditious Catiline who was very eloquent But when they doe surmount Demosthenes may not wee rightly â—ay that of them which Eschines hath sayd of him comparing him vnto a flute which hath but the beak of bil the which is vnprofitable after that the necke is cut off What is there also in these héere but the tongue The which oftentimes hurteth many and profiteth fewe Is not a poore labourer which knoweth his God and Iesus Christ his Sauiour and which confesseth him in his rude language and which honoureth him through his good life and conuersation to be preferred before all these greate Poets Orators and Philosophers who are altogether ignoraunt and which doe serue but the flesh the world and Sathan Prince of the same Are not they great Asses and beastes in comparison of him and yet worse For the Oxe knoweth his Lord and an Asse his Masters stall as sayth the Prophet the which those here which will bée counted for true Israelits Gods people and Christians wil not acknowledge nor serue hym dooing vnto him so much honour as the Oxe the Asse doe vnto their Masters How dare they esteeme themselues wyse beeing ignoraunt of the knowledge of God the which onely is the true knowledge for to bringe vs vnto euerlasting blessednesse in comparison of which all other which are called sciences are but mennes opinions errours and lyinges excepte they haue this for a guyde It is very harde to finde for such men mediciues proper to heale them and meate for to make them haue an appetite sith that they are so farre out of tast with the bread of lyfe and the heauenly Manna to the which they preferre the garlicke onyons the flesh and fishes of Aegypt For he that shall giue them such meate as they desire shall but encrease their griefe the greater And if the meate bée not as they woulde haue it they will not tast of it Wherefore I leaue such to bée handeled of those which haue more cunninge then I and which can better helpe their disease There are others which differ but a little from these héere and which care not so muche of the language but they haue yet a greate vice common with the first that is that they delite not in reading any good matter graue and whiche toucheth Gods woorde and the health of their soules but vnto worldly thinges delectable to the flesh pernicious and hurtfull to the spirite and conscience And therefore although that many good men haue written in French very learnedly and in a good language touching the matters of our Religion yet neuerthelesse that sorte of people cannot applye themselues to reade those good bookes and can take no taste of them bicause that their mouthe is not fitte for such meate and that they are to precious for them For the â—doriseraunt and sweete flowers smell not so swéete in the hogges noses as the myre and durte For that cause suche carnall men take more pleasure and delite in the bookes that speake their language But the thinge is more detestable to women whiche delite to reade â—ookes of bawdry and whoredome For they vnderstande them the better bycause they are of the earth and doe speake of earthlye matters and cannot comprehende the celestiall language bycause it is not naturall vnto them Nowe such bookes as they desire are not wanting vnto them For there are ynough of fooles bables throughout the worlâ—e which doe serue but for seoffing and testing and which haue no other care and applye their studie but to please men and to nourishe theyr vaine curiositie louinge better to speake pleasaunt thinges then salutary and to delyte the fleshe and the eares more then to edifie the conscience Yet thys was one of the causes whiche moued me to write and procéede after an other manner then those whiche haue written before mée For I consider that many doe leaue off to reade them not onely bicause it is forbidden in many Countreys kingedomes and Segmories to reade good bookes whiche speake of GOD
rather we ought to conuert tourne them to our vse and profite as things recouered taken away from vniust possessours for to make them serue to their true possessours If they doe then admit the iust and reasonable excuse of Mantuan and doe attribute anye authoritye vnto Saint Augustine they ought not to doe vnto me worse then to other And if it séeme vnto any of our sages and wise men that the same is but lost time and that we néede not now any more to discouer the abuses bicause that they are already sufficiently discouered and opened I am of the contrary opinion and doe know cleane contrary by experience I knowe not whether the sages haue séene the abuses so vncouered and whether they which dare not speke of Iesus Christ but with halfe a mouth and dare not preach but secretly haue founde people among them of so sharpe and earnest a spirite that they doe know all things and are ignoraunt of nothing But as for vs which are héere we haue experience cleane contrary For sithens that the Gospell hath bene preached already ten or twelue yeares in some places and fréely the which men dare not in all places and the abuses haue ben manifested so cléerely and playnly as the same is cléere at hye noone we are yet all abashed that we doe finde dreamings errours and great superstitions in some yea in those in whome a man would not thinke and yet we doe thinke that we haue alreadye much profited in the knowledge of god But that is meruayle that of the marke carecter of the Diuell which is so harde to deface and of an olde custome which is so hard to teare out and so much the harder the worse it is Wherfore I shal be much abashed that there where one dares not speake of Iesus Christ nor to open his mouth agaynst Antechrist that the errours and abuses were all so cléere and manifest that there was no more néede to speake of them inasmuch as héere and there wher the truth is clâ—rly fréely preached one cannot tell which way one can plucke and teare them from the hearts of men and that it is not requisite to say or speke any more against them Or it must be that God hath there more amply shed out his grace or els that there are héerâ— very dull spirites and wits in comparison of others But I feare rather that those which glory in themselues to know them so much know not themselues the moite and vnderstande very euill that which they thincke to knowe For if they had intelligence and vnderstanding such as they thincke to haue and that they dyd knowe the abhomination such as it is and howe it displeaseth God and is noisome and hurtfull vnto his church they would retyre and drawe themselues further from it then they doe and it should bée vnpossible that they could sée and suffer it but would flée rather away from thence or they would suffer themselues rather to bée burned then to dissemble and consent vnto it But would say as the faithfull of whom the Prophet hath written which doe consider the grace which God hath done vnto them and comparing them with their first condition say to the great abhomination of al Idolatry Fie get you hence And therefore one cannot to much manifest the abuses For truth cannot be knowne without discouering them pulling them downe And in dooing that one doth manifest them vnto those who knoweth theÌ„ not yet which shal be alwaies more in nuÌ„ber theÌ„ we would the which we must draw away Afterwards the thing may serue them which already haue the knowledge many wayes First for to refreshe and quicken the memory from the darknesses in which they haue bene to the end that they may knowe the better the blindnesse infirmitie of mans vnderstanding what he may do of himselfe when hée wyll bée guided by his owne head and forsake God and his woorde for to followe men and their traditions Afterwardes that shall serue them for a remembraunce and signe of the triumph of Iesus Christ and of his truth to the confusion of Sathan Antechriste lyinge and mans wisdome who wyll exalt hymselfe aboue the knowledge of GOD to the ende that hée haue more occasion to humble himselfe to acknowledge the mercye that GOD hath done for him and to render thanckes vnto him And that hée bée more prudent and better aduysed héereafter and praye vnto the LORD more earnestly that hée doe kéepe hym that hée doe neuer fall againe into such or like errours and inconueniences Furthermore that shall serue hym as a pricke the better to pricke him forwarde to indignation against Antechriste and to haue compassion vppon the poore ignoraunt people and his wandering and erringe bretheren and to take wyth more greater courage the cause of the trueth in hande considering the vnworthynesse of the thing And he that shall bee yet weake should fortefie and strengthen himselfe and hée that shall bée already firme and stronge should confirme himselfe more For all these causes and reasons GOD woulde that the errours and sinnes of the people shoulde bée registred and hath so many tymes commaunded that they should bee remembred And the Prophet Esay dyd not admonishe so many times wythout cause the people after that hée had well mocked them for Idolatry that they should remember those thinges to the ende they maye the better knowe the iudgement of God which is vppon the Infidels which are as bruite beastes and what treasure it is to haue the truth of God and his woorde And if any man wyll yet saye that notwythstanding that it is not euill but very profitable and necessary to shewe foorth and declare the abuses yet neuerthelesse wée must not procéede in such sort which should séeme peraduenture vnto some men more proper and fitte for to bée offended then for to bée edified by it I doe aunswere vnto the same that I knowe not what those shall bée that shall reade those bookes nor what occasion they maye haue to bée offended I doe thincke that they shall not bée so much estéemed that many people woulde reade them Beside that many peraduenture woulde whiche cannot But howsoeuer it bée if those that doe reade them are good and vertuous people and fearing GOD they shall knowe that I studye not but to manifest the veritie and to glorifie Iesus Christ that those whom I rebuke are not onely worthy to bée mocked but vnworthy that the earth beareth them excepte they wyll acknowledge their faultes and giue glorye vnto god If they were â—picures and contemners of GOD they can be no worse then they are and therefore knowe in what reputation they ought to bée vnto all good people and that they are vnworthy to be taken and accompted not onely for Christians but for men béeing a great deale more worse then bruite beastes If they bée Pharises and obstinate Hipocrites and that they doe séeke the
heape of fooles who demaunded a forme shape of the soules and did thincke that they did retourne Upon which he saith From thence by his accompt the lake of Auernus is not farre off from whence some do saye that the soules doe come in a blacke shadow after that the gate of Acheron is opened and that from thence came foorth the Images and figures of the dead men with false bloude Notwythstandinge the same they woulde that those Images and visions shoulde speake the which they cannot doe without a tongue mouth and throate or wythout strength figure of lyuer ribs And although they sée nothing by apprehension of vnderstāding they would y those figures of the dead should be represented before their eies Although y Cicero rebuked y opiniō of those yet neuerthelesse they do not accord very euil with y theology of your Doctours Wherefore thou oughtest to coutent thy selfe with my solution or if thou wilt haue a better propound the question in Sorbonne and if the Doctors cannot absolue it let them condemne the bookes of Barleta and of other lyke dreamers forbid the Moonkes to reade their Sermons full of blasphemy rather then the holy Scriptures and the bookes that they iudge to be full of heresies onely bycause that they doo contayne truth and which condemne their abuse Theophilus They will not doe so For the other do cause the water to come better to their mil. Moses witnesseth that Pyson the one of the foure flouds of the terrestryall Paradise bringeth golde with his waues But those will haue nothing to doe with the flouds of Paradise nor of the golde that they bringe which is a great deale more precious then that which they drawe from their internal flouds the which they preferre before those bicause of the greate riches and treasures that they drawe there out Hillarius There is no Prince vpon the earth whiche getteth or draweth so much out of the flouds nor mines as they haue That is none of the golde which Tagus the floud of Portingale bringeth with his sandes Or Pactolus of Lydia Or Ganges of India Or Hebrus of Thracia Or Padus of Italy Or Orcus whiche is in the country of Taurine in Piedmont All the golde that those flouds haue is nothing in comparisō of that that they catch in their internall floudes which cause the whéeles of their Mill to turne about very well In very déede they haue an Orcus which is more fertile in golde then that of Piedmont And the name agréeth with it very well For Orcus signifieth hell from whence those flouds arise whiche cannot ioyne themselues with those flouds of the terrestryall Paradise no more then Eurotos with Peneus that goodly floude of Thessaly which cannot abide nor suffer that the execrable waters of that stincking floud engendred wyth paines and torments should be mingled wyth his siluer flouds But they must swimme aboue him as Oyle and after the he hath carryed him a little he driueth him farre from him Theophilus Those héere would as well mingle the waters of their stincking Cesterns with the water of life But it agréeth not together For Iesus Christe cannot abide nor suffer that but casteth it farre from him Wherfore I doubt verye much that as he hath already kindled his fire which hath burned Purgatory that he will also repulse those riuers and lakes and that he will cause them that they shall not swell ouer as a flud doth his waters for to quench and put out that little fire which shall be there left Hillarius they ought a great deale more to feare that flud then the drowning and ouerflowing of Tiber whiche was like to haue drowned Rome For when it runneth ouer it will carry away both the castle of Sainct Ange the Pope and his Popedome and all the Romish Babilon Wherefore it is no meruaile though they feare those euangelicall waters and endeuour themselues to keepe their filthy internall puddles and infectious and stincking welles For that is all the force and riches of their kingdome The flud Nilus which ouerfloweth the land of Aegypt which maketh their fields fruitful and fat and bringeth vnto them great aboundance and increase of wheate and other corne by the mudde filth fat ground dunge and fatnesse that it bringeth with it is not so fertile nor profitable vnto the Aegyptians which inhabit in the land of Aegypt as vnto vs new Aegyptians Wherefore if the Aegyptians take such paine about their flud Nilus and haue their Nilometres that is to say the mesurers of the flud Nilus which haue the charge to measure it for to know whether it encrease much or little we must not be estonished if those heere doe so trauayle after theirs Thomas Wherefore doe they that Hillarius Bicause that if that Nilus do not encrease but twelue cubytes then they haue the famine in Aegypt bycause that if all their groundes are not watred and moysted through the ouerflowinge of the same those whiche are not couered are as the sande and wyll brynge foorth no fruite For it rayneth not in Summer and all their felicitie and riches dependeth vpon Nilus As Moses declared vnto the Israelites comparinge Aegypt vnto the lande of Canaan If the floud Nilus arise vppe xiif cubites yet there shall be tamishment in Aegypt If it encrease xiiif cubites it bringeth ioye if xv it bringeth assurednesse if it encrease xvf. cubites it bringeth delightes and pleasures For they haue such store and aboundaunce of corue and other goodes that all is plentifull On the contrarye if it encrease aboue measure they cannot sowe bicause that the water tarryeth so longe that the earth wyll not bée drye to bée tylled But when it encreaseth by measure they make greate chéere takynge care for nothinge and therefore they haue those Nilometres whiche measure the hyght and depth of those waters and if they knowe that it aryseth not hygh ynoughe for to water all the earthe they make it to be knowen through out all the Townes and Cyties afterwardes euery one maketh dykes and trenches for to make it the easier to runne all abrode If they knowe to the contrary that it wyll swell and ryse vp to hye and that throughe hys greate aboundaunce of hys waters it wyll let and hynder to sowe and tyll the earth they make greate rampers and walles rounde aboute it for to kéepe it in and to cause it to runne more slowelye Nowe therefore doubte not but that our Aegyptians are as wyse in their generations and that they knowe as well that practise for to prouide and foresee to theire Niles and flouddes whiche cause the water to come to theire Milles from which all their fertilities and ryches do procéede and wyth which they fishe and catche the goulde of which yet neuerthelesse they can neuer be satisfied For they are as a goulfe of the sea in which these ryuers dooe emptie
Doctors of the Churche are of our side or on yours And therefore I pray thée Eusebius that thou doe pursue thine enterprise and that thou shew forth so good places that they cannot be easely plucked from thy hands as they haue done those which thou hast alreadye taken of Sainct Ambrose Eusebius If I would display and shew foorth all that that I might alleadge aswel of the new and late Doctors as of the aunâ—ient I should aswell set them a worke as Hillarius did vaunt himselfe of late to haue set mée on worke but I haue not determined to alleadge others but of the most auncientest and of those whiche are of more greater authorite in the church by the which I will plainly proue that that which we doe now in the fauour of the dead descended from the primatiue Churche and from the traditions of the Apostles For if I would bring foorth the Doctors of late dayes they would by and by reicete and despise their authoritie and woulde make none accompte of it But when I shall haue proued that the auncient Doctors of the Churche are on our side I shall by and by allow and confirme the authoritie and witnesse of the late Doctors and will more easelier stoppe their mouthes except they bée so past shame that they care leproue and condemne all the holy men and Pillers of the Church which haue shored and held it vppe in the time of the Apostles and to affirme that there are not so manye good men and so wise and learned as they are Theophilus Thou shalt not finde vs so vnreasonable Put foorth thy case afterward Iudge whether wée haue reade and vnderstanded those of whom you doe glorye so much in Thomas I haue heard thée speake friend Fusebius of Sainct Augustine namely among others and I am of an opinion that he is the chiefest by whom thou mayst better fight then by any other if thou canst finde in him a strong staffe for to defende thee and to make warre against them For I haue vnderstanded that there is none amonge al the auncient Doctors which wil serue theÌ„ better for to proue their sect then hée Wherefore I am sure that if thou canst do so much that thou canst proue that he is contrary vnto them they shall receiue a great ouerthrow and thou shalt make a great breach in their Castle For if hée so whome they haue their recourse be their enemie they shal haue others which will rise against them Eusebius But so well assured theroff as thou are certeine that it is now daye And to the end thou shouldest not thinke that there are but vaine wordes in my case I will shew vnto them the experience What do those wordes signifie which are written in his Encheridion which are also recited in y decrets and in the master of the sentences saying we must not denye that the soules of the dead are comforted thorewe the pietie and deuotion of their friends that be aliue when the sacrifice of a mediatour is offered for them or that almes is done in the Church But those thinges doe profite those who haue merited them during this lyfe to the ende that they maye afterwarde profite them For there is a certeine manner of liuing whiche is not so good but that it requireth those things after death nor so euil but that after the same they may profit him But there is in lyke manner some kinde of lyfe so good that it requireth not the same And againe some so euill that it cannot haue ayde by those thinges after that this life shal be ended And therefore hee getteth here all the merite by whiche anye maye bee reléeued or gréeued after this life Yet neuerthelesse there is none whiche hopeth to be able to merite towardes GOD when he shall bée dead whereoff hée hath not here made anye accempt This then whiche the Churche hath frequented for to prayse the dead is not contrary vnto that sentence of the Apostle which sayth wée shall all bée brought before the iudgement seat of Christ that euery man may receiue the workes of his body according to that hée hath done whether it hee good or badde For euerye one acquireth and getteth that merite when hée lyued in this bodye that those thinges maye profite him For they profite not all men And wherefore doe they not profite all men but bycause of the difference of the lyfe the whiche euerye one hathe lead in his bodye Then when the Sacryfices bée it of the Aulter or of almes déedes what soeuer they bée they are offered for all the dead whiche haue bene baptised those are giuing of thankes for those whiche haue bene verye good and propitiations for those whiche haue not bene very euill for to make God fauorable vnto them But for the moste wicked and euill although that there bée not aydes and helpes for the dead yet neuerthelesse those are certeine consolations for the lyuing But they doe profite those that they doe profite eyther to the ende that they maye haue full remission and forgiuenesse or without all â—eubt to the ende that the dampnation maye bée more tollerable and easier to beare Thomas Hath Sainct Augustine written that â—usebius Doest thou thinke mée so much a foole that would declare it otherwise I warrant you they would not let mee passe so if they might saye the contrary But I am certeine they dare not do it And though they woulde they cannot For the booke is of faith and credit Thomas Those wordes are very cléere not onely for to proue the prayers for the dead but also the sacrifice of the â—ulter Eusebius One cannot finde a thing more cléerer For it openeth so plainely all the matter perticulerly and goeth before the obiections replyings which those that do speake against it might make For it deuideth the diuers manners to liue and diuers merites of men And giueth to vnderstand that it must bée hée which woulde that such good déedes should bée profitable vnto him after hys death should be here conducted in such sorte that they may profit him that is to say that it must bée that he dye confessed and repentant And hée speaketh not onely this in this place but in manye other like amongest whiche hée addeth yet this that notwithstanding that that which we do for the dead profit not all those for whom wée doe them Yet neuerthelesse bicause we do not know to whom it profiteth we must do theÌ„ to all y we leaue none out For it is a greate deale better that those to whome it can neither profit nor hurte should haue more then they neede then to want any thing vnto those which haue neede And in the same booke he saith moreouer wee doe reade in the second booke of the Machabees that sacrifice was offred for the dead but when one readeth them not in the auncient scriptures the authoritie of the vniuersall Church is not little the which hath
this custome that in the prayers of the Priestes which they doe make vnto God at his aulter the recommendation of the soules hath also his place And did not Monica the Mother of Sainct Augustine require that they should make remembraunce of hir in the sacrament of the aulter For that cause hath Sainct Gregory written that the soules of the dead are deliuered in scure manners and sorts either by the oblations of the Priestes or by the prayers of the Sainctes or by the aimes of their friendes or by the fastinges of their parents I doe not thincke that these two learned men would haue written suche thinges wythout hauinge foundation of the holye Scriptures And it is not lyke that the Church hath kept that custome so longe time but that shée was well assured that it came from the Apostles and afterwardes was augmented and ordayned by Origene as witnesseth Isidore for from the tyme of Sainct Denis and Tertulian who were next vnto the Apostles they made prayers sacrifyces and oblations for the dead For Sainct Denis maketh expresse mention of the prayer which the Bishop made for the dead that God woulde pardon him all that that hée myght haue committed through mans infirmitie and that he woulde place him in lyght and in the region and countrey of the liuinge and in the bosome of Abraham 〈◊〉 and Iacob It is in lyke manner written in Tertulian wee doe make yéerely one daye â—â—oblation for the dead I haue declared vnto thée many witnesses and of great authoritie I haue alledged vnto thee the custome of the auncient Church which is a witnesse which is worth a thousande I haue alledged vnto thée the practise of the auncient Doctors They doe sufficiently declare both they haue vsed and chiefely Sainct Augustine who â—â—â—â—â—festly witnesseth that the same was ordeyned of the authors which the vniuersall Church kéepeth that is no say that for those which are dead in the communion of the body and bloud of Christ when one maketh remembraunce of them in their place in the sinne very socrifice that one ought to maye and make remembraunce that one doe also offer that sacrifice for them Wherefore he sayth that we must not omit the supplication the which the Church hath taken in charge to doo for the spirites and soules of all the dead which are departed in the Christian society and company Theophilus I thinke that thou hast very strongly dysplayed and set foorth the principall weapons that thou canst finde for to defende thy quarrell and that if I haue once satisfied those obiections I beleeue that the matter shall bée ended as soone as hée toucheth the witnesse and authoritie of the auncient fathers As touching Sainct Denis and the authour of that booke of the celestiall and ecclesiasticall Hieratchies I haue already ready tolde thée what it was For who knoweth not that that booke of the celestiall Hierarchia is more worthy to be some dreamer then of Sainct Denis the Disciple of Sainct Paul For it hée had written eyther of the Angels or of the order of the Church hée had woulde rather haue followed Sainct Paule his Master then the dreames of his owne head and hée woulde not haue spoken of such matters otherwise then hée in his Epistles If thou doe diligently reade that booke of Denis whatsoeuer it bée thou shalt there finde that the prayers which are made at the burials are made for those that bée aliue and not for the dead And doth confirme that which wée haue already spoken off of the manner whiche the auncientes had to prayse the dead Wherefore it shoulde not bée néedefull to reiterate that whiche alreadye hath bene opened before if thou wouldest vnderstande that which one telleth thée But wee are alwayes to beginne wyth thée I haue already sufficiently declared vnto thee from what originall and beginninge the commemoration which is done for the dead in the Church came firste and what hath bene the custome of the auncient fathers the which was altogether contrary from that whiche is nowe in the Popish Church Wherefore that whiche thouhast alledged of Denis and Tertulian doth confirme my matter as I wyll proue vnto thee by Cyprian that holy Martyr who hath read and well vnderderstanded Tertulian if euer man dyd vnderstand him For hee had him in such reputation that hee dyd call him no otherwyse but the Master thorowe his great excellentnesse Insomuch that when hée woulde reade in hys bookes he sayde alwayes bringe mée the master And the better to declare the pleasure that hée dyd take in readinge him and the fruite that one myght therein learne receiue they saye that hee laide it at nyght when hée went to bed vnder vys pillolue that hee nyght haue it alwayes ready at hande when hee woulde occupye and looke in it as the auncient historyes doe also wytnesse that Alexander the great dyd myth the bookes of Homere For hée giueth vs sufficiently to vnderstande that the commemoration and the oblations which are done for the dead in that auncient Churche were none other thinges then the prayses and giuinge of thankes which the faythfull did render vnto God for the mercy that he did vnto their bretheren whome hée hath called from this world with the other thinges whiche haue bene already spoken off which are yet done at this daye in some places in Almaigne after the auncienâ— manner But they doe call commonly the oblation and sacryfice the diuine seruice and that which they dyd in theire assembles in which they did obserue chiefly foure things The first was the prophecie and preaching of the worde of god After the prayers Afterwards the supper and last of all the gatherings and almos for the poore And they did call that oblation and sacrifice not that they dyd vnderstand and meane to offer and sacrifice Iesus Christe as the Priests say that they doe in their Masse But bicause that the Bishop and Pastor of the church and al the Christian people did come to offer present themselues vnto god did offer vnto hym their orisons giuing of thanks which are y true sacrifice of praise And their almes in like manner for to coÌ„fort y poore people of Iesus Christ They are those which the Apostle calleth offerings agreeable vnto god And they did make coÌ„memoration of the death passion of Iesus Christ in celebrating the holy supper Wherfore we must not thinke y they did make prayers offerings for the dead to the ende they should be deliuered frdiâ— the paines of Purgatory as hath bene done in our time But the praiers were the prayses and thanks that they rendered vnto God and exhortations and admonitions which they dyd make by his word vnto those that bée liuinge The offeringes were of the almes that the faythfull dyd bring for to succour helpe the poore which were liuing And therefore long time amonge the auncientes that diuine soâ—â—ke that they
the aunerent Doctors of the Church he laboureth and enforceth himselfe if he can relieue it through the ayde and helpe of the holy Scripture and taketh for his first defence and weapons the second booke of the Marchabees by occasion whereoff is intreated the difference which ought to be put betweene the bookes that are Canonicall those that are Apocryph And it is in like manner declared in what authoritie reputation that booke ought to be among the Christians Afterwards although peraduenture there shal be some matters which may seeme somewhat curious vnto some men yet neuertheles shall be spokē of the Limbes as wel of the auncient fathers as of the young children that are borne dead dead without circumcision baptisme of the difference which may be betweene thē which haue ben vnder the new old testamēt as wel little as great as wel quick as dead of their condition estate We do entreate of those things very amply bicause that many do moue questions that there is good prositable necessary points to be vnderstanded for to correct many errors abuses false opinions thuching those matters which are come among the Christians Ther shal be in like manner spoken of baptisine administred by womē declared by liuely plain reasons how Iesus Christ is the onely health satisfaction of all the elect children of God how the vertue efficacie of his death pasion extendeth it selfe frō the beginning of the world vnto the ende of the same Item what is the true baptisme of Iesus Christ the remission of sinnes the satisfaction worthy of the righteousnesse of god To what ende the god woorkes doe profit the Christian What is the iudgement of God vpon the good and euill and by what means some are deliuered and other some doe abide subiect Furthermore how the iudgement is alredy done vpon euery one and whether we ought yet to attend loke for it And how Hel and Paradise doe begin already in this world when their full and whole consumation shal bee It shal be in like manner declared how the place of the Machabees serueth nothing at all to proue the Purgatory And there shall be also declared of the manner by which the auncient people of God haue prayed for the dead and for the comming of Iesus Christ and wherein the Christians may follow it without speaking against the word of god It shal be also touched how in our time and by what meanes Sathan endeuoured himselfe to establish his Purgatory and the prayers for the dead and what maske instrument he hath chosen for to do that Wee doe call this Dialogue the Hels bicause that wee doe declare how many hel 's the Papisticall doctrine hath forged for vs and the lodgings and chambers that it hath there builded ¶ THE FIFTH DIALOGVE which is called the Hels EVsebius For as much as Thomas hath reserued for himselfe one part of this day for to make his Narration and of hys owne accord hath graunted vnto mée the greatest parte therefore it is good reason that hée do begin first Wherfore I giue him the choice whether he will go before or behinde Hillarius I desire for my part that Thomas doe rehearse first the cause of his enterprise and voyage For I doe much desire to heare it and vnderstand it Thomas Thou oughtest not to be much desirous of it For thou canst not heare of me any thing which is much worth Wherefore I am well content to holde my peace if you wyll For I feare greatly that after that you haue heard mée you will mocke me chiefly Hillarius who is so expert in that occupation I beléeue that it is the chiefest cause wherefore hée so greatlye desireth to heare my wordes Wherefore I thinke it best Eusebius that thou doe procéede-forwarde and prosecute thy intent For the matters that you haue to intreat off are better then those which you can heare of mée And in hearing you I may profite but in speaking I can but spende the time the which you wil employ and best nine to a better ende And therefore beginne and after if there be any spare time I will sée what I shal do Theophilus I beleeue that we shal haue time inough Feare not thē to begin sith y thou hast alredy told vs y thou wilt not be ouer long But thou wilt make vs finde the thing good For that cause dost loue to be entreated so much knowing that the more thou refusest to tel vnto vs that we demaund so much y more we desire it Thomas I haue regard vnto another thing I consider y which Salomon hath writtē saying if a foole do hold his tongue he shal be counted wise For he compareth man to a loohing glasse or a bell y which one doth know by the sounde whether they be broken or whole So in like manner may one iudge of man in hearing him speake whether hée be wise or foolish For one perceiueth the spirit of man in his word As his figure in a glasse and one may beholde in the same the nature of him as the complection of the body in his water vrine by which it is easie to iudge what drogues hee hath in the shoppe of his braine Hillarius Thou wilt that one should saye of thée that which a Philosopher once said of a certeine man y he did sée sit at a banket which spake not a word although y all the others did put foorth certeine questiōs gaue vnto him matter inough for to speake in his course If that man saith he be a wise man hée playeth the part of a foole if he be a foole he playeth the part of a wise man. Thomas I cannot well vnderstand that matter For me thinketh that it conteineth implyeth contradiction Hillarius He giueth therby to vnderstand that euen as too much speaking apperteineth vnto fooles ideots so alwaies to holde ones peace agréeth to beasts and not vnto men Wherfore ther must be a meane kept in all things Thomas That is the same to the which I pretend And I doe thinke that I speak ynough according to the place men with whom I am And bicause y I am not wise for to speak wel I wil at the leastwise thorow silence thorow silence counterfet the wise For it is cōmonly said it is euil to speak Latin before learned men When I am with ignoraunt men as my selfe I doe speake as a Doctor especially if I thinke that I haue the moytie of a dragme or scruple more of knowledge then they But when I come before you I doe loose by and by all my babling Hillarius Thou wouldest héere very gladly make an ende But thou must first declare vnto vs that thou hast promised Thomas Sith y thou vrgest mée so much thou shalt haue it But if thou doest mocke mée bée assured that I shall haue as good matter agaynst thee for
I did before I haue very much lost my fantasie You doe well remember that I sayd that after that I had spoken to the holy father who hath so well disciffered that matter that paradueÌ„ture I should haue gained my voiage without going vnto him I feare very much that before that I depart from you you will cut off all the way and make it shorter For I hope through the helpe of God that we will visite this day all those chambers infernall habitations without mouing our selues from hence and before that we depart if that the one and the other of you doe that whereof you brag and baunt your selues you will. For you haue promised on euery of your partes that you will haue recourse to none other Iudge but to the pure word of god And as for mée if you take it for the Iudge I am wel content to take it for my guide And I am certeine that it will guide mée better then Cyble guided Aeneas Theophilus If thou doe not hold thy selfe assured Dauid who speaketh by experieÌ„ce can certify thée saying Thy woord O Lords is a lanterne vnto my féete That guyde will not conduct and lead thée vnto thy fathers that are dead as Virgile did cause Aeneas to bée lead of Syble vnto his father Anchises but it will lead thée vnto the liuing God thy immortall father whome by the same thou shalt heare speaks for to put thée out of all doubt Hillarius Ther is also an other point that when we shal haue ended the voiage we shal not go by the gates of dreams as Aeneas or as our holy father whom we haue heard dreame so wel as all such as hée is doe which repose rest themselues in any other bed then vppon the pure word of god For it hath such vortue that whosoeuer resseth vpon it shall neuer dreame nor rane or if hée dreame hée goeth not by the gates of Iuory but by the horne gate which is cléere through the which one may sée as with the eyes in such sort that such dreames are more certeine then that which others doe sée with their eyes as it appeareth in those of Ioseph and Daniel But he that will lye or rest himselfe in any other bed shall neuer cease to dreame and wander astray out of the waye And all their dreames doe go by the gate of Iuory which is thicke as the bones are Wherfore one can perceiue nothing by the same as we doe sée by experience in our Theologians and Sophists whiche are so obscure and darke that one can sée nothing at all For after the they haue well banketed moisted theÌ„selues w that good Theological wine they haue the spirite of wine the which the great God Bacchus hath inspired them maketh them to enter by the gate of Iuory that is to saye betwéene the téeth and chawes which causeth so many exhalations of that diuine licor well tempered with wine so many fumes and heates to ascende and mount into the braine that they do dreame more déeper then the lowest parte of hell and the seate of Lucifer Afterwards they refurne béeing rauished in their Poetical furor madnesse as if they were departed all newly and freshe But euen as their dreames are entred by the gate of Iuory by force of the wing and mouing their chawes and cockscombes as the Organ bellowes so doe they go foorth by the very same gate Thomas Let vs then go in by the other gate and in such fobrietie that we may know the things as though we saw theÌ„ w our eyes But who shal begin to declare shew it vnto vs mée thinketh the Eusebius maketh himself ready Begin then to knocke cause it to be opened vnto vs Eusebius I will enter first by the olde testament Hillarius But take good héede you lead vs not awrye and totake the one for the other For if thou doe erre and go astray we will direct and leave thée into it againe Eusebius But I will direct and leade you well Giue eare then vnto that which is written of Iudas Machabens who sent to Hierusalem two thousande Dragmas of stluer for to be offered for a sacrifice for the sinnes of those which were dead In which place he did well and right For he had some consideration and pondring of the lyfe that is after this time For if hee had not thought that those which were slaine did yet liue it had bene super fluous and vaine to make any vow or sacrifice for them that were dead But for so much as he saw that they whiche dyed in the fauour and beléefe of God are in good rest ioy he thought it to be good and honorable for a reconciling to doe the same for those which were slaine that the offence might be forgiuen Is it possible to finde a terte more cléerer Wherfore did Iudas Macchabeus send such a summe of Siluer the number of two thousand Dragmas which are worth a thousand and two hundreth Crownes if wee accompt them after our money if he had not bene certeine that the offrings and prayers of the lining did profitte the dead Theophilus Thou doest here open vnto vs a goodlye field to dispute off and wil engâ—der to vs many questions the which I will propound vnto thée and we will declare them at large one after an other and afterwards we wil iudge in the ende whereto that place can serue you for to proue Purgatory I doe then first demaunde of thée in what reputation thou hast that bookes of the Macchabees and whether thou do holde them for canonicall or Apocripha Eusebius I hold it but for such as it is that is to say holy Canonical and allowed of the catholike Church For is it not conteined in the Bible Theopilus I do not benie but that it is fastened sowed in betwéene or among the bookes of the Greeke and Latin Bible but it followeth not therefore that it is Canonical of such Authority as the others which we haue receiued of the Hebrews which alwayes haue bene receiued allowed of all the catholicke Churche without any contradiction Eusebius I am not now abashed though you will not receiue the authority of the auncient Doctors sith that you are so shamelesse that you dare condempne and reiect the very proper bookes of the holy Scripture I doe know by experience that you must haue a Bible made according or after your owne pleasure For you are like vnto the auncient heritickes which will not take out of the holy scriptures but the places whiche they thinke moste méete and proper for to giue colour to their herefies and do reiect all the other as vnworthy of the spirite of god Is not that to great arrogancie to make the spirite of God his word to be subiect vnto your iudgement Thou mayst wel perceiue Thomas that now they doe féele themselues muche gréeued when they are constrayned to refuse
the Apostles the whiche some among the auncients and among the Popes and counsels haue bene holden some for Canonical and others for Apocripha bicause that they doe serue in many thinges confirmable to the Apostolicall doctirne but they were not bound vnto them as vnto the holy Scriptures whiche they cannot reiect as they haue done often times when they haue found any Canon whiche séemeth much to differ from the Apostolicall doctirne Euen so maye we do of the bookes of the Machabees We may wel draw out of them examples for to exhorte the faithfull vnto paclence constancy and Martirdome propounding and declaring vnto them the vertue and the faith of that good mother with hir seuen sonnes who stoode so constantlye vnto death for to mainteine the Lawe of Gode who had not yet neuerthelesse such an occasion to doe that as we whiche haue more sure and certeine witnesses of the resurrection and of examples more euident aswell in Iesus Christ as in his Apostles dysciples then they had And so said S. Augstyne But it followeth not therfore that touching the doctrine which concerneth the faith and religion they should be with equall authority with the others And therefore the glose made vpon the decrée recysith them among the Apocripha Eusebius I woulde gladly that thou wouldest declare vnto mée a litle more plainely what thou vnderstandest by the Canonicals and Apocripha Theophilus I doe call canonicall all the bookes of the new testament the whiche wée haue and of the doe in like manner all those whiche are conteyned in the Hebrwe Bible the which we haue receiued of the holy Prophets and true seruaunts of God and whose authors are certeine and knowen And we doe cal them Canonicall which signifieth asmuch as rules bicause they are of an infallible veritie a certeine sure rule whiche is giuen vs of god for to ruel examine al other doctrine to proue the spirites whelter they are of God and for to liue according to the same Eusebius And what vnderstandest thou by Apocripha Theophilus Apocripha signifieth a thing hid secret or obscure which hath no sure or certein author or which is not alowed as are y bokes to y title is applies made at which are not sufferable but insomuch as their doctrin is confirmable vnto that of Canonicalls the which ought to be ruled by them And they haue no firme authoritie but that which those doe giue vnto it For in steede that we may take a sure foundation and buylding vppon any place taken out of the Canonicalls we cannot doe it in those heere if they haue not alreadye their foundation on the other They haue not bene called Apocrypha bicause that it was not lawfull to haue them in ones lybrary and to reade them with iudgement for ones profite For that was not forbidden But haue taken that name bicause that they were not of such authoritie the one should holde them for a sure and infallible doctrine of the church of God And they were not red and expounded openly in the same and with such authoritie as those which without doubt were holden for the certeyne worde of God to the which we are bounde to beléeue and to submit put our iudgement vnder them not to eleuate it aboue them or to iudge them by the other bookes which ought to bée subiect vnto them Eusebius And wherefore haue some of them more that authoritie then the others Theophilus Bicause that of the one we are cert eyne which are the pure wordes of God but not of the others but to the contrary Eusebius By what meanes Is it not bicause the Churche hath allowed them and not the other Now sith that their authority dependeth of the authority of the church if shee doe receine these here as the Canonicall maketh them of equall authoritie wherefore shall not they bée in the same degree Theophilus I doe beleeue that thou doest thinke that the church hath accustomed to legittimate the bookes as the Pope doth legittimate his bastardes The Popishe church may well take in hande that but that is not the propertie of the of Iesus Christ And although she woulde legittimate them yet they must be takē as bastards legitimated by the Pope which cannot be notwithstanding borne in lawfull maryage but do abide alwayes bastards and sonnes of fornication How can the daughter engender and beget hir Mother or hir Father Howe can the Church giue authoritie to the woorde of God who of the same receyueth hirs and of the same is begotten and borne Of whome receiueth the Sunne his brightnesse Doth hée receiue it of men whome hee illuminateth and lighteth Eusebius No. But on the contrary men of it Theophilus Is it cléere and shining bicause that men doe iudge and confesse it to bée such Eusebius No. But bicause that it is such the men that doe sée it and haue the experience are constrayned to acknowledge and confesse it to bée such Theophilus Thou meanest notwithstandinge that the Sunne should bee cleere and giue light bicause that men doe thincke it to bée so Eusebius Thou doest mée wrong to impute vnto mée that which I neuer spake but altogether contrarye Theophilus Thou hast sayd it by other wordes Whereby thou doest not perceiue thy selfe For when thou saydest that the holy Scripture taketh hys authoritie of the church thou sayest that men do giue lyght and cléerenesse vnto the Sun. For as Dauid doth wytnesse the word of the Lord is pure cléere that is the light which giueth light vnto the eyes giueth wisdome vnto babes It is then certeyne and true not bycause the Church iudgeth it such but it iudgeth it such bicause that it is so and cannot iudge of it otherwyse no more then he which hath cléere eyes can iudge of the lyght of the Sunne of whiche the blinde person is not capable Wherefore hée cannot iudge no more then the Infidells and reprohate can iudge of the woorde of God nor allowe it Then thou mayst by this vnderstand that the certeynetye veritie and firmenesse doth not depende vppon mans opinion and iudgement but vppon the holy Ghost and of the proper force vertue and effectes by which it doth verifie it selfe and compelleth the faythfull heartes to allow and receiue it as the lyght of the Sunne doth the eies For the sheepe doe heare and vnderstand the shepeartes voyce but not that of the straungers And all that that the Prophetes haue forshewed and taught the Apostles in lyke manner haue bene verified and authorysed by the vertue of him which hath spoken in them insomuch that all the worlde cannot resist it Nowe wée cannot saye she lyke of the bookes of the Machabees chiefely of the seconde First for that it is not founde in the Hebrewe and that the stile of the same witnesseth cléerely that it was first made in Greeke and was not translated frō the Hebrew tongue into the Greeke tongue
rest except that sometimes those lyttle varlets and lockesmithes doe picke the locke and the dore of the great loksmith and great treasurer he knowing nothing thereoff and that he be not therewithall content although that vnder his name and title they streth foorth their power as séemeth good vnto them and doe forge keyes bulles and pardons as many as they lyst and alwaies at the costs of the poore people Now the great lockesmith hath no lymit but that he hath alwaies reasonable cause for to giue buls and pardons as many as one woulde so that money doe come or otherwise he will suffer the poore soules to be rosted and tormented in Purgatory as long as the world shall continue for want of one leafe of paper or parchment with a lyttle waxe and leade As concerning the others which haue the daies limitted that they may giue pardons I haue a certeine doubt the which I would that I were resolued of it by thée Eusebius For sith that the one hath power to giue two or thrée thousand an other two or thrée hundreth an other an hundreth fiftie fortie thirtie or twentie either more or lesse I would gladly know of thée what horologes clocks what quadrans they haue in purgary for to measure those dayes there For sith that there is no sun moone nor stars what daies what yeres can they haue For the time is taken of the morning of the heauen of the course of the sunne But those which are in purgatory haue nothing of al this Wherfore I cannot comprehend what yeres what months dayes houres they can haue whether they be very long or short As far as I can imagine by an exāple which Antonius Florentin reciteth in his sum the daies ought ther to be meruailous lōg For he saith that an Angell caryed thether a soule of a man to whome hée promised that it shoulde tary there but an houre And as soone as that Angell did come agayne to see that soule it did begin to crye out vpon him and to call him lyer deceiuer and traytor Thomas To what purpose Hillarius It sayd vnto him Thou hast promised me that I should be but an houre and I haue bene heere already more then an hundreth yeres But the Angel aunswered vnto him There wanteth a great many my friende For thou hast not yet taryed a quarter of an houre Wherefore I doe conclude that it must needes be that the dayes and yeares be there very long sith that a quarter of an houre is there compared to a hundreth or thousande yeares of ours or els that the fire is there meruaylous hotte and that the time continueth long to the poore soules Eusebius I will tell thée as touching the pardons it hath bene long time sithence that many people doe know that there is in them great abuses Wherefore I will not much breake my braynes to maynteine them Theophilus I doe also iudge it lost time to speake of such abuse if I did not sée that sithence the time of Gregory so many people to haue bene abused that so many great Doctors which are most estéemed amongst the Sophisters and Schoolemen haue written of it and haue confirmed it so assuredly Hillarius I know that thou doest beginne already Eusebius to agree with vs I beléeue that thou art of this opinion that the Pope ought to let the dead rest without reigning ouer them sith that they haue more power ouer the Pope then the Pope ouer them as I will proue it by an example taken from the Autentike booke which is intituled the conformities of Saint Fraunces For I haue neuer read that the Pope hath raysed to lyfe any dead person and that he came to aunswere before him of all those whom he hath cyted condempned absolued or excommunicated But that booke doth witnesse manifestly that Fryer Walter a Cordelier and Bishop of Poytiers hath caused to be cyted after his death by a Cedule Pope Clement the firt for to appeare before the eternall Iudge bicause that he had vniustly deposed him from his office Thomas And did the Pope appeare there by vertue of that Cytacion Hillarius If the booke lye not that was no iest For at the verye same daye which was prescribed vnto him the Pope dyed of a sodeyne death and departed sodeinely for to goe and aunswere there What sayest thou by this Eusebius If this history be false it is a great dishonor for the Cardeliers who do make great accompt of that booke and doe holde it to be very pretious among them as a relicke and reuelation And for the Pope also which hath confirmed the order of saint Fraunces and of the foure Mendicants I know not what good meanes we may héere finde for to maynteine that buylding and the honour and authoritie both of the one and of the other For sith that the Pope hath confirmed the order of Saint Fraunces the order of saint Fraunces is buylded and staied vppon the Pope wherefore when the Pope shall fall which is the stone and foundation of that Church and of that buylding also shall fall the buylding the order and the rule of the Mendicants Now we cannot deny but that example doth ruinate ouerthrow the Pope all his power I do not dispute whether that the history be true or false For I beléeue that is as true as it is true that the Pope is God saint Fraunces conformable agréeing to Iesus Christ as that booke ful of blasphemies enforceth it selfe to proue it But I consider onely that sith that the Cordeliers haue written such an history do maynteine it by their bookes that they doe abate asmuch the authoritie and power of the Pope as the Pope doth confirme their rule and order For how can this witnesse agrée with this proposition The Pope cannot erre And with the exposition which Eccius and his lyke doe make of those words Thou arte Peter and vppon that rocke I will buylde my congregation and the gates of hell shall not preuayle agaynst it If the Pope be that rocke or stone and that stone is fallen it must néedes be that all the Popish church doe fall with it and the orders of the foure Mendicants which are his foure Euangelysts and his principall pillers And so by that meanes the Cordeliers whome the Pope hath made doe vnmake the Pope which hath made them and the creature vnmaketh his creator and the creator his creatures Theophilus It chaunced to them as to the Madianits which destroyed themselues the one the other with their owne weapons when they heard the sound of the trompets and pitchers of the army of Gedeon and saw the lyght of his torches So in lyke manner sith that Iesus Christ our true Gedeon hath put the trompets of his gospell into the handes of his lyttle army the which by vertue of his holy spirite he maketh to sounde euen vnto the endes of the
the supper taken avvay from the people The Councel of Constance of Basile Transubstantiition The honourable recantation of Berengarius De con dist 2 Lgo Berengarius Mat 26. c. 27. Marc. 14. c. 22. Luc. 22. b. 19 The Conuent of Monkes Multitude of Masses for hidde De con dist 1. ca. sufficit What company ought to haue the Masse De con dist 1. ca. Hoc quoque Mat. 16. c. 27 Marc 14. c. â—2 Luc. 22. b. 19 The breaking of the hoast De con dist 2. ca. â—riform Sergius 2. Oâ— porci Plat. The names of the Popes changed Bonauent li. 4. dist 12. Hilbert in eleg de Euchaâ—istiu The memento of the quicke of the dead The sâ—pper a 〈◊〉 of reâ—â—â—tion The dispising contemning of the supper King Levves Statutes for the communion Ausegisus li. 2. Ca 38 Fabtan De con dist 2. hâ— Concilium Aga thâ—se â—libâ—â—t De cen dist 2. 〈…〉 Concil Latera The councell of Pope Innocent De pen. remiss omnis v◠〈◊〉 Albert. li. de missae myst The conslareie of the Greekes Purgatory retested of the Greekes The Counsell of Florence Scismes Antipopes Plat. in vita Eng. li. concil The Counsell of Busle Pope Martin Sigismond Emperour The Counsell of Ferrora Plague Pope Engenius A yme Duke of Sanoy Ripailles Pope Felix Purgotory receyned by the Greekes Rutenus Nicenus Beisation Rossensis The VVitnesse VVhich Saint Hâ—ereme ytueth cllus time 〈◊〉 lanua 1. 9. Aertus Hierom against Vigtlantius The opinion that Styne August in had of Pingarory Collo 2. 3. 3. Li. desâ—â—â— oper ca. 16. Addulâ—â— q. 1 in Enchir. ca 68. 69 De ciui deili 21. ca. 26. Tho. in 4. dist 21. Autho. 1. Par. 〈…〉 10. Cap 2. The doctrine of the Apostles perfect Raâ— diui off li. 7. 3. q. 7. in grauib 24. q. 1. odâ— 1. de ponderet extra de renun Nisi 5. 1. Monica Li. confess 9 câ— 11. The affection of the women that follovved Iesus Luc. 24. a. 5. Mat. 18. 2. 1. Marc. 16. b. 6. Iolus 10. â— 11. The vvitnes of Saint Augusture against purgatory of the Pope De ciui det li. 10 â— 1. 24. The true Pargatory De câ—â— Dei. li 10. ca. 22. 1. Timo. 2. â— 5. lieb 1. 2. 3. De eiui Dei. li. 13. ca. 9 De trinita li. 4 ca. 13. De ciuis Dei. li 21. ca. 13 Purgatory in this worlde Enchi â— 67. The fire dinturnall eternall Contra Pelag Hypogu li. 5 Two vvayes onely Other vvitnesses of the most auncion doctors agaynst Purgatory Ter aduer Marl. li. 4. The sieldes Ehâ—eus Abrahams bosome To affirme vncerteyne things Irene aduer ha res Valentma Recogn li. 1. The booke of Clement Purgatory is either far all or els ther is none Psa 32. The diuersltie of opinions touching the suffrages for the dead Theologia Ac. â— demâ—a 1. Timo. 1. b. 7. The certeyntie in the doctrine of the faith required The disputacioÌ„s of the babblers of diuinitie Temerine to affirme Tho. m. 4. dist 21. 〈…〉 Sinne 〈◊〉 holy Ghost Dist 19. ca. 51. Romanorum To sinne against the Pope The couâ—cell of Saint Augustin in Genes 11. 10 Mat. 24. b 24. The elect in daÅ„ger to b. seduced The reigne of 〈…〉 and he vvorking of 〈…〉 â—â—â— 59. a. 5. 2. thess. 2. b. 5 Rash determinations â—â—â—â—nations vvhat thing vve may safely he ignorant off and vvhat not Luc. â—3 s 43. Vnâ—o vvhom do â—â—perreyne the extreme appeâ—â—â—vions in causes of â—d ygloa Ordinary iudge Diuine humayne councells Mat. 18. Act. 15. b. 8. The power of the Pope Dist 34. c. ioctor Glos dist 82. ca. Hrestyter Glo. Apostolorum 17. q. 4. ca. 51. siquis dist 40. c St Papa Dist 96. c. Satis c. simplices inscriptis Dist 40. ca. Si Papa The â—oye out â—f th 〈◊〉 The vvitnesse of Antechrist agaynst his Purgatory De bapt ofsee cap. Maiores causat God pardoneth not the moyâ—ie Versus Magistrales ex glosa Larga Dâ—i pietas veniam non dimidial it Nam nil aut totum te lacrymante dabat Deut. 32. â— 4 Mar. 8. d. 29 Marc. â— c. 25 Pro. 17. d. 28 Iudgement by the vvorld Apothegma CoÌ„mon proâ—erb The incredulity of Thomas Iohn 20. â—â—â— S. Patricks wels The vvorde of God iudge and guide Aene. 6. Psa 119. c. 05. The gates of dreames The gate of Iuory horne The dreames of the Saints of the erring Theologisters The spirite of Bacchus 〈…〉 The vvorde of God iudge and guide Aene. 6. Psa 119. c. 105. The gates of dreames The gate of Iuory herne The dreames of the Saints of the eâ—ring Theologisters The spirite of Bacchus 2. Mach. 12. g. 43. The value of the thousand Dragmas The authoritie of the bookes of the Machabces Books canonical Apocripha The iudgement of saint Hierom touching the bookes of the Machabeeâ— Hiero. Pauli Ioseph y anthor of the bookes of the Machabees The bookes of Ioseph De ciui Dei. li 18. ca. 36 Martirs bescre the comming of Iesus Christ The Machabees 2. Mac. 7. a. 1 Antiochus The legends of Saints Dist 15. ca. sancta Luc. 24. g. 44. The Canons the Apostles Dsti 16. casex againta can canoner propter Dist 16. ca. â—none Glos atâ— The eâ—onicall bookes Apocrypha Vnto whom the iudgement of the scriptures do appertcine Legitimation The authoritie of the Church The authoritie of the scripture Psa 19 c 9 The seconde bookes of the Machabees The sangnage of the Prophets The last Prophets The authoritie of the Prophets and Apostles Gal. 1 b. 8 The vvstnesse of God. Ad Chroma dist 5. ca. saÌ„cta The place of the Machabees serueth nothing at all for Purgâ—â—ory Purgatory before the comming of Christ Luc. 16. c. 19. The Limbe The reason vppon which Purgatory is builded Hipocrites enuious of the grace of God Luc. 15. g. 28. Examples of the mercy of God. Luâ— 23. l. 4â— Priuiledge Saluation by priuiledge Rom. 3. 9. Payne for satisfaction The only death of Iesus Christ doth satisfie Cypr. lib. 4. de bapismo lâ— sent 4. dist 4. sunt The greatnes of the paynes of Purgatory Dist 25. ca. Apostolus Tho. 4. dist 21. aâ— 1. Ric. 4. dist 20. arg 2. Aâ—ber 7. li. com theo ca. 2. Bona. 4. dist 18 Plutar. lâ— de sera numi vind Fable of Gregory Bart. fer 4. heb 4. quadrag Ser de poen purg Fable of Theseus and Pyrothus Verg. Aene. 6. Difference bevveene the fire of purgatory of hell Ric. 4. dist 20. arg 2. Bonauâ—n 4. dist 18. Albet 7. li. com pe tha ca. 2. Thom. 4. dist 21. arg 1. 3 er q. 46. ar 6. Barl. serm de pâ—na Purg. example Anto. â— par suÌ„ Mans reason the foundacion of Purgatory The Iustice and mercy of God. Esa. 9. b. 6 Iohn 3. d. 34. Rom. 3. 24. Gala. 3. d. 2â— Punishment for sinnes Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12 Iohn 15. Gala. 3. â—â— Iohn 3. d. 36 The revvard
followe the example of Iesus Christ and his Prophetes and Apostles who haue alwayes taught those with whome they had to doe in a language that they coulde beste vnderstande For that cause was gyuen vnto the Apostles the gyfte of tongues for to preach vnto all people and Nations knowing that the language ought to serue to the matter and not the matter to the language Wherefore considering that some men doe write in Hebrewe some in Greeke some in Latin others in Almayne and in Flemish others in Italian and Spanish I haue also written in a language with which I am best acquainted and haue most familiaritie according to my byrth and natiuitie Although that the matters that I entreate off shoulde haue a greater grace in the Latin tongue then in the French tongue and shoulde be vnto me more aduauntage For oftentimes I haue the matter ready that I néede not but to write them out of good Authours where I néede not to trauaile to translate the thinges in French the whiche is very harde and impossible especially vnto mée to sette them out wyth such grace and to interprete them so natiuely as they sound in their naturall language Hebrewe Greeke or Latin. For although I bée a poore Oratour in Latin I am not much better in french Wherefore although I doe not speake the language of Attica nor well beautified lyke a Retricion but that it happeneth oftentimes that I doe fall into my rude speache Or if I wander astraye in Fraunce and that I come agayne into the countrey I doe thincke that the fauourable Reader wyll well beare wyth such faultes and especially in the rymes and French verses which sometyme I mingle in these Dialogues following the example of the good Authours which haue willingly kept this custome to translate into verse after their owne language that whiche they alledge of the Poets which haue written it in an other language The which I haue done sometime bycause that I put in the margentes those Authours by the which I helpe my selfe for to discouer and vnhide better the abuses and superstitions to the ende that some men shoulde not thincke that I speake of the speakers of the Dialogues for the nonce and wythout iust occasion If ther be in my verses but little rime it sufficeth me so that it haue some reason For I do not make profession of Poetry it sufficeth me to tourne them grosly or plainely Besides that that I am an euill Oratour yet I am a worse Poet. Yet neuerthelesse I am fully certified that so many good mindes and wittes as Fraunce bringeth vp very able and experte both in Poetry and French prose shall haue none occasion to enuye mée nor to rebuke or finde faulte with my Poetry For they may very well iudge that I pretende not by my verses to haue the crowne of Baye and that I wyll not take from them their Science and name Also I hope that those vnto whome GOD hath gyuen more gyftes and grace to speake wyll consider to beare with my rude style as the Athenians who were the cummingest in all Greece both in doctrine and in language haue not despised the doctrine and language of the Philosopher Anacharsis notwithstandinge that hee was a Sythian and of a barbarous Nation They must also consider whiche knowe the greatnesse of the countrey wherein I am I haue sometimes vsed expresly some woordes which shall not bée receyued of those which sludye in the finenesse of the French tongue but I doe the same for to condiscend to the rudenesse and capacitie of the most ignoraunt whiche better vnderstande those woordes taken from their language then others that are more fine and eloquent Furthermore although that there are manye good men which haue already written of the matters of Religion in the French tongue wyth more hautye style and more elâ—quent then I can and of a more déeper and profounde knowledge Yet neuerthelesse I doe not thincke that those whiche knowe that Christian simplicitie and modestie is wyll neyther despyse my language nor my doctrine but that they wyll take it all in good parte consideringe that if Amos whiche was a shepeheard and many other Prophetes of base condition haue not vsed so high a style nor haue spoken so profoundly and learnedly as that kingly Prophet Dauid or that great Oratour Esay of the royall linage and brought vp in the court they haue not therefore leaft off to bée Prophetes and to speake through Gods spirite and to profite very muche in hys Church whose style they haue vsed And althoughe that the Euangelisles and Apostles haue not written in such pompe of woordes nor haue not so much trauayled after the language of Demosthenes and Cicero yet wee cannot denye but that they haue more profited to all mankinde by theyr â—ude stile then the others by all their pompe of humayne eloquence wythout any comparison But if wée consider Gods woorkes wée shall knowe that the holye Ghost althoughe that hée doe not reiect the eloquence whych is one of his gyftes yet neuerthelesse hée delighteth himselfe more in the simplicitie of language for to declare better hys vertue and efficacie to the ende that we doe not attribute vnto humayne eloquence that which apperteineth vnto hym I speake this bicause of some delicate moâ—thes and curious of language which regarde not but the stile and the manner phrase of speaking without considering the sentence and that that one speaketh as though men doe write for the tongue and for to learne onely for to iangle and prattle as the Pyes and Iayes not rather for to instruct the spirite soule and the conscience They regarde but the flowers and care not for the fruite And which is worse one shall finde them of such corrupt iudgementes that they preferre the paynted flowers before those that growe naturally thinckeing to beautifie their language and to enrich the French tongue GOD knoweth what a cuttinge and manglinge they make and howe they mangle the Latine so that they doe speake neither Latine nor french But desiring to auoide and not to vse all that which they thincke to bée common to the ende they might bée estéemed the greater Oratours doe forge and inuent a newe language and doe despise the good French woordes for to steale awaye those from straunge tongues That curiositie and affection of language is the cause that many delite rather to reade bookes full of scoffinges fables lyes and of blasphemyes then those of diuinitie or of some good diuines and holy men And this vice is not onely in the French tongue but also in that Latine For ther are some which haue so great feare to defile their golden tongue and to embrew their goodly stile with the simplicitie basenesse of the Propheticall and Apostolicall language that they had rather to defile their soules vnderstandinges and spirites in foolishe curious bookes or in the writinges of the Panims and Idolaters
suffering yet neuerthelesse the others which doe induce but to dishonour and blasphemye But also bicause that although that it bée permitted vnto many to reade them yet neuerthelesse they doe make none account of them bycause that eyther they séeme vnto them very obscure and so wayghtye that they cannot well vnderstande them or the tyme to longe and take no pleasure to reade bookes whiche haue not some merrye conceytes and delites for to make them pastyme For they are yet to carnall and finde no pastime in those bookes whiche speake but of GOD and of the health of the Soule if there bée nothing for the fleshe the which they woulde onely keepe There is no doubte but that malady or dysease is very perillous and that suche vicious and corrupt Natures doe very muche displease GOD sith that they haue so lyttle reuerence of him and hys woorde and that they preferre the poyson before the good meate Neuerthelesse bycause that amongest suche one maye yet finde some whiche are not altogeather peruerse and malicyous but that they haue yet some seede of the feare of the LORDE in them mée thinckes that wee muste not altogeather dyspayre and abanoon them as sicke folke that are incurable but that we must yet proue to winne them if it bee possible and to transfigure and chaunge them into al formes and shapes for to induce them to reade the holy Scriptures and to giue vnto them some tast For if we can conuert into good vses the meanes by the which the Diuell gyueth himselfe to drawe away man from the word of God and to robbe him altogether and holde him in the vanities of this worlde and may vse them as a baite on a hooke for to draw them from such vanities and to incitate and prouoke them to the studye of the truth me thincketh that wée doe nothing vnworthy of the office of a Christian man For euen as the holy Apostle hath bene made all vnto all men and doth applye and giue himselfe vnto euery one in all that which was possible for him without béeing against the will of God making himselfe a Iew vnto the Iewes and a Gentile vnto the Gentiles So me thinketh y by good right I may doe the lyke so that I do not altogether forget the Christian modestie and the honour and reuerence that the Christian oweth vnto the woorde of god For if the bawdes of Sathan endeuour themselues through faire and goodly delites and merry conceites to destroy the poore and silly soults the espowses of Iesus and to drawe them away from him for to make them serue him and to forsake their master shall it not be lawfull for vs to vse an other practise and cunning for to let theirs for to discouer and vnhide their filthinesse for to make them appeare to be abhomination to all the world and to retire and drawe backe the soules from his stewes for to ioyne them agayne with Iesus Christ their Sauiour If a paysoner doe couer and hide his poison with some delicate meate for to poison and murther men shall it not be by more iust reason peruntted to a Phisiâ—ion to mingle suger and hony amonge the wormewoode and the bitter Aleos for to sweeten a little the bitternesse of these drinckes Which notwithstanding that they are bitter in the mouth are yet neuerthelesse healthfull to the boote For if such holy deceits are worthy of praise to the Phisitions of the body wherefore shal it be despised to the Phisitions of the soules I would to GOD that he had giuen vnto vs the grace to deceiue so all the worlde for his profite and health For the diseased is happie which is deceiued by the Phisition to his health and healing which is the ende to the which both the one and the other doe pretende both the Phisition and the diseased I know very well that there bée already many bookes written which doe muche discouer abuses and which doe sufficiently mocke the vaine ceremonies idolatries and superstitions which are amonge the Christians but that sufficeth not except one doe teach what is the veritie and what is a firme and sound doctrine The which many haue already done but bicause they séeme and appeare too seuere and graue vnto those with whom wée haue chiefly to doe they reade them not and doe profit nothing There are others which haue followed a manner to write altogether contrary vnto those For euen as those haue regard to none other thing but to entreate of the woorde of God with all grauitie modestie and reuerence adressinge their writinges vnto people of good iudgementes and of temperate sences and full of the feare of GOD These héere vnto the contrary haue not taken their sight but to the white and marke of mans vanitie and curiositie and haue purposed to absteme themselues from all waightie honest and holy matters and to write onely of follyes merry conceites iestes playes and pastimes as of fooles morishdauncers scoffers and iesters And if they woulde holde themselues within those limits they were the more tollerable But many are not content to playe the fooles amongest men although that that office is scant méete vnto an honest man doe yet worse For they giue themselues but to scurrilitie and doe thincke that they cannot sufficiently inough delite men except their deuice bée altogether full of ruffenly talke and bawdry of vilanies and blasphemies not onely intollorable to the Christians but which shoulde bée iudged woorthy of grieuous punishmentes amongest the Iewes Turkes Panims and Infidels For if the Gentiles and Panims haue not taken and accompted for honest men and worthy to bée aduaunced into anye honourable office in a common wealth the Morishdauncers Maskers Iuglers Players Mummers and Iesters what honour is that vnto Princes and vnto Christian people to take delyte not onelye in such men with their bookes but in others a great deale more detestable and more ruder in all filthy and vyle woordes as the ruffians of the stewes and denyers of god Doe wée thincke that Iesus Christ hath sayde wythout a cause that for euery idle woorde that men shall speake they must render accompt at the day of iudgement Sith that the trueth which lyeth not telleth vs the same so cléerely and doth meanace and threaten that wee muste render an accompt for euery idle word that is to say which is vaine and vnprofitable whiche serueth nothing at all to the glorie of GOD nor to any edifyinge of our neighbour Doe wée thincke that our ribalde and bawdye talke backebitings euill speakings vnaduised slaunderous and infamous woordes which doe serue to none other ende but to peruerte the vnderstandings of men to adde or heap euil vpon euil to cast oyle into the fire and to bring towe the better to inflame mans conscience vnto all wickednesse and abhomination and vnto the which it is alreadie too muche inclined Doe wée thincke that suche languages shall not come to an accompte and that