mortuorum de vnigeniti in carne aduentu de sancto testamento veteri ac nouo in summa de alijs constitutionibus perfectae salutis I will write vnto you concerning the faith seeing you and our brethren require of vs the things which concerne your saluation out of the holy scripture a firme foundation of faith concerning the Father the Sonne and the holy Spirite and all the rest of the matter of our saluation in Christ to wit of the resurrection of the dead of the comming of the onely begotten in the flesh of the holy Testament both old and new and in briefe of other constitutions pertaining to the perfection of saluation Now we may consider with lesse danger of the place here alleaged wherein that Epiphanius be not misunderstood we must consider that these words Omnia a diuina scriptura accipi non possunt Wee ought to vse traditions because all things cannot be learned out of the holy Scripture must be restrained to the matter in hand for Epiphanius meaneth that the bare letter of this or that scripture doth not afford sufficient helpes to vnderstand it selfe but requireth other meanes for that purpose for thus stand the words Diuina verba speculatione indigent sensu ad cognoscendam vniuscuiusque propositi argumenti vim ac facultatem oportet traditione vti non enim omnia à diuina scriptura accipi possunt c. The words of God haue need of speculation and sense to know the force and power of euerie argument propounded we must also vse tradition because al things cannot be learned out of the holy Scriptures Now by these means he expoundeth a place of Paul to the Corinthians 1. Cor. 7.28 If a Virgine marrie she sinneth not this place saith he is meant of such as had a long time continued Virgines because none in that paucitie of Christians did offer to marrie them and therefore Paul permitteth they should marrie with Iewes and Infidels you haue heard his speculation yea but why may not this place of Paul be meant simply of all Virgines mariageable without exception Epiphanius answereth Tradiderunt sancti Dei Apostoli peccatum esse post decretam virginitatem ad nuptias conuerti The holy Apostles of God haue deliuered that after the vow of virginitie it is sinne to marrie You haue heard his Tradition but like speculation like Tradition For it is incredible that the Christians of Corinth had not as many sonnes and daughters as many males as females more incredible that there was such a paucitie of Christians in so populous a Church as the Church of Corinth 2. Cor. 6.14 and most incredible of all that Paul should permit that in his first Epistle which he forbad in his second and so his Speculation faileth him Moreouer it is a fond conceit to think that there were Votaries in Pauls time or that Paul in the seuenth of the first to the Corinths spake not generally of all Virgines but of such as could not get Christian husbands Propter penuriam charitatis so his Tradition is come to nothing No no if there had beene such Nuns at Corinth the Apostle being requested to set downe his iudgment for the direction of Virgins could not possibly forget that principall kinde of Virgines that had most need of direction speak only of some other meaner regard and that in such generall termes without any exception or mention of votall Virgines More ouer Epiphanius fortifieth his tradition out of Paul who saith Iuniores viduas reijce postquā enim lasciuierunt contra Christum nubere volunt habentes iudicuum quod primam fidem reiecerunt The younger widowes refuse for when they haue begun to waxe wanton against Christ they will marrie hauing damnation because they haue reiected the first faith Concluding therof that Virgins are much more to bee blamed than Widowes if they turne back from their purpose of continencie wherfore it is not an vnwritten veritie that Epiphanius obtrudeth vpon vs but a conclusion drawne out of the first to Timothie Cap. 5.11 c. howbeit S. Paul reiecting yong widows frō vowing or promising cōtinencie doth by the same reason reiect yong virgins which be in as great danger of breaking their faith and promise as young widowes and so still we finde that no such votaries were allowed to snare themselues with vowes and religious promises in Pauls time but left free to vse the remedie of marriage according to the ordinance of God But to make short worke whether Epiphanius here speake of written or vnwritten verities yet hee concludeth in the end that it is better euen for Votaries openly to marrie according to the law than to be wounded dayly by the secret darts of concupiscence then which nothing can be more contrarie to the practise and principles of Poperie Touching the confutation of Aerius it stands vpon a tradition of fasting vpon Wednesdaies and Fridayes till night and feeding vpon breed water and salt sixe dayes before Easter which is quite dead long agoe Moreouer Epiphanius opposeth his traditions to matter of faith saying Ecclesia acceptam à patribus veram fidem vsque huc continet itemque traditiones The Church doth still retaine the true faith receceiued from the Fathers and also their Traditions And therefore if Aerius had offended against nothing but Traditions hee had beene sound in the Faith notwithstanding and so no hereticke As for the Booke of the Apostles Constitutions either Epiphanius lost it out of his bosome or it is that which is extant vnder the name of Clemens and condemned longe agoe in the sixt generall Councell at Constantinople Can. 2. yet are these Constitutions allowed for good scripture in the last Canon of the Apostles Lib. 2. cap. 59 Lib. 6. cap. 14 Lib. 2. cap. 63 Lib. 5. cap. 16 which the verie Papists themselues are ashamed of And good reason for they say in one place that Iames the brother of our Lord was not an Apostle and in another place that hee was not an Apostle they say also that the people ought to come together euerie day morning and euening which is no where obserued they say that Iudas was absent when Christ celebrated his last supper which is contrary to the scripture to bee short these Constitutions are so full of errours and falshoods that no honest Christian will father them vppon the Apostles or allowe them for canonicall Scripture The place of Austine which your Papist as a blind man casts his staffe at is in the seuenth Chapter of the second Booke De baptismo contra Donatistas and the wordes bee these Multa non inueniuntur in literis Apostolorū neque in Cōciliis postererū tamē quia custodiuntur per vniuersam ecclesiam non nisi ab ipsis tradita commendata creduntur Many things are not found in the writings of the Apostles nor in the Councels of later time yet because they are kept by the whole Church they are
liter lib. 10. into the contrary extreame Austine himselfe speaking of Tertullian saith thus De Deo noluit aliter sapere qui sane quoniam acutus est inderdum contra opinionem suam visa veritate superatur quid enim verius dicere potuit quam id quod ait quodam loco Esse corporale passibile est debuit ergo mature sententiam qua paulò superius dixerat etiam Deum corpus esse neque enim arbitror eum ita desipuisse vt etiam Dei naturam passibilem crederet c. He would not conceiue otherwise of God who indeed because he was of quicke iudgement sometimes he is ouercome by the sight of the truth contrary to his owne opinion for what could he speake more truly than when hee saith in a certaine place that to be bodily is to be passible therefore he ought to haue altered that sentence in which he had said a little before that God is a bodie for I doe not thinke that he was so vnwise as to thinke that the nature of God is passible Heere is a contradiction namely to be bodily is to be passible and God is bodily which be the premises of a Syllogisme and if you adde the conclusion which ariseth of them Ergo God is passible the falsehood of it will prooue the one of them to be false likewise now the maior is most true saith Austine ergo say I the minor is false and so consequently the one agreeth no better with the other than truth and falsehood you will say then debunt ergo mutare sententiam it is true but he changed it not for ought wee know but left this and some other contrarieties behind him vnretracted yet was he still accounted a very learned man Cyprian when he called for Tertullian was woont to say da magistrum giue me my master Austine saith acutus est he is a quicke and subtile disputer and Erasmus Inter Latinos Theologos multò omnium doctissimus Tertullianus Tertullian was the learnedest by much In praefat oper Hilaric of the Latine diuines Now where our papist still goeth on and tels vs after his absurd manner that the Iewes tare the writings of the Euangelists with contrarietie and that great apparance thereof seemes to be therein heere is but a seeming of apparance against the Euangelists and therefore I hope he is well able to stop any Iewes mouth in that behalfe and to defend the writings of the Euangelists against seemings of apparance if he cannot doe the like for the fathers and doctors then hath he sayd nothing to purpose but bred a suspition in his reader that he had rather the Euangelists should miscarie than the Fathers and this suspition is yet increased in that he accounteth the holy Scriptures without Churches Fathers and Councels to be the fountaine of all Heresie and Atheisme for may not a mans fancie mislead him in the fathers as well as the Scriptures and sucke poyson out of the one aswell as the other I am sure Dioscorus crieth out in the Councell of Chalcedon Ego testimonia habeo sanctorum patrum Athanasij Gregorij Action 1. Ibidem Cyrilli in multis locis ego cum patribus eijcior c. I haue the testimonie of the holie fathers Athenasius Gregorie Cyrill in ma-many places I am cast out with the Fathers c. So Eutyches Ego legi scripta beati Cyrilli Athanasij Ibid. Action sanctorum patrum So Carosus Ego secundum expositionem trecentorum decem octo patrum sic credo c. I beleeue thus according to the testimonie of three hundred and eighteene Fathers Heere bee Fathers and Councels alleaged by arrand heretickes as the grounds of their poyson but of the Scripture Ad pompeium cont epist Steph. de peccac merit remiss lib. 1. 12. Cyprian saith Si ad diuinae traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat error humanus If wee returne to the head and fountaine of Gods tradition the error of man doth cease And Austine Scriptura sacra nec falli potest nec fallere The holy Scripture can neither deceiue nor be deceiued As for the Church he talkes of if he be straitly examined he will tell you he meanes the Church of Rome and so no Scripture nor enarration of Scripture may goe currant but that which Rome will affoord vs that 's the Church which hee takes to be as he said a while agoe the sure rocke and pillar of trueth De expresse verbo Dei Hosius saith Si quis habeat interpretationē ecclesiae Romanae de loco aliquo scripturae etiāsi nec sciat nec intelligat an quomodo cum scripturae verbis conueniat tamen habet ipsissimum verbum Dei If any man haue the interpretation of the Church of Rome of some place of scripture although he neither know not vnderstand whether and how it doth agree with the words of the Scripture yet he hath the very word of God How like you this my maisters you need talke no more of Fathers and Councels no nor of learning nor wit neither for the Church of Rome whether it agree or agree not with the words of the Scripture will serue the turne you may burne your bookes and goe about other businesse the Church of Rome will watch for you but sirs I pray you tell vs wil your Church of Rome when she hath giuen vs an interpretation stand to it like a post and neuer alter that would be knowen before we yeeld to this which you vrge vpon vs. Nicho. Casanus No we dare not promise you that for we haue a great man one Nicholas Cusanus once a Cardinall in the Church of Rome who hath intituled a book which he hath written in defence of the Church thus De authoritate ecclesiae conciliorum supra contra scripturam of the authoritie of the Church Councels aboue contrary to the Scripture And in that booke he hath set downe Praxis ecclesiae vno tempore interpretatur Scripturā vno modo alio tempore alio modo nam intellectus currit cum praxi c. The practise of the Church interpreteth the Scriptures at one time one way and at another time another way for the vnderstanding runneth with the practise Marry then fie vpon you and vpon your Church our owne fancie will prooue as good an interpreter as either you or your Church Now let vs consider of his three differences betweene the errors of the Fathers those points of doctrine whereof we haue disputed I pray you looke vpon them and you shall find the two first to be the same and the third little differing from the other two the Fathers errors saith he were priuate opinions that 's the first one doctors opinion that 's the next reiected of the Church that 's the last Now if this word reiected be no more but not receiued or allowed for the Church neuer condemned euerie seuerall errour of the Fathers by publicke sentence
remained euer from the beginning now if it be sayd that hee meaneth the Church vnder the Gospell Rom. 15.8 Heb. 2.3 it will trouble him to prooue that the Apostles were the first planters of that Church in Iudaea seeing Christ himselfe was minister of the circumcision and first began to preach saluation before it was confirmed by them that heard him Moreouer that the Church was euer dispersed through the whole world by the ministery of the Apostles is sooner said than prooued for though Paul say that the fall of the Iewes was the riches of the world yet doth hee not meane the whole world simply without exception no more than Saint Luke doth when he saith that Augustus Caesar decreed that all the world should bee taxed Luk. 2.1 Math. 28.19 Luk. 24.47 Mark 16.15 Act. 16.6 c. 2. Cor. 10.13 c. and so must wee vnderstand all Nations in Matthew and Luke and all the world and euerie creature in Saint Markes Gospell for though the words be generall and without limitation yet the Apostles were kept in and guided more particularly by the holy Ghost Lastly it would bee agreed vpon what faith or beleefe your Papist meaneth when hee saith Doe you beléeue the catholicke Church whether iustifying or historicall For though he seeme to fetch his question out of the Creed wherein the articles of iustifying faith are recorded and so to make the catholicke Church inuisible for faith is the euidence of thinges not seene Heb. 11.1 yet when hee addeth planted by the Apostles in Iudaea c. he maketh it visible and so not to be beleeued Wherefore though this first question haue neither head nor foot yet thus in charitie I conceiue of it that it demaundeth whether we beleeue historically that there were orderly Churches or companies professing catholicke doctrine taught by the Apostles first among the Iewes and then among the Gentiles which profession and professors shall continue in one place or other to the worlds end if this be the question then haue you answered catholiquely first that you beleeue this and then secondly that the Protestants onely are the visible and knowne members of Gods church Now where it is demaunded in the third and fourth place how wee knowe this whether by outward meanes or by inspiration it is answered that the canonicall word of God doth so testifie and better witnesse than this we desire none and touching this word of God the Papists graunt all those bookes to bee canonicall which wee call canonicall though they adde other Bookes which wee admit not for grounds and foundations of faith but if wee cannot make good our profession by those bookes which both sides agree vpon and by the same bookes ouerthrow all that the Papists hold against vs at this day then I for my part will soone yeeld to the Pope and craue absolution vpon my knees Nowe forsooth the discerning of these canonicall Scriptures is called into question and they must bee subiected to the infirmity of man howbeit your answere though it be true yet is it insufficient for howsoeuer the vniforme consent of antiquitie is not to be neglected yet as our Sauiour saith Ioh. 5.36 that he had greater witnesse than the witnesse of Iohn so hath the holy Scripture greater witnesse than the witnesse of the Fathers namely the puritie and incontrolled antiquitie of it the Maiestie of the stile the conformablenesse of the precepts thereof to the lawe of nature and diuers other outward meanes noted by Master Caluine in his Institutions Lib. 1. Cap. 8. otherwise it were hard to tell how the men of Beroea and other ancient Christians discerned the Scripture in the Apostles time and after Act. 17.11.12 before any one of the ancient Fathers was borne or had written a syllable and herehence it is easily gathered how vaine the sixt question is for traditions are not confirmed by such pregnant euidence as the Scriptures are but hange in the winde vppon the conceits of men which may be deceiued and therfore a Christian man may well beleeue the one though he neglect the other Rom. 1.16 Heb. 4.12 1. Cor. 2.4 1. Cor. 14.24.25 Luk. 24.32 the powerfull working of the word of God described by Saint Paul and the Author to the Hebrewes and the Disciples of Christ in Saint Lukes Gospell are sufficient witnesses to the soule that Traditions which haue not the same image and superscription may be refused as the commandements and doctrines of men The Dialogue Sectio II. PA. Do you not perceiue that by this description of the Church you haue giuen two mortall wounds vnto your owne cause first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane out of the Church by you described and secondly you thrust out all the ancient Fathers and Doctors that euer flourished in the Church since the Apostles time Pro. The wounds you speake of surely are not mortall for as yet I feele them not Pap. They will prooue sensible when they come to the searching first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane who hold many points of Doctrine not a These points are warrantable by Scripture as it shall appeare warranted by the Scriptures as the obseruation of the Sunday in stead of Saturday which was the Sabbath of the Iewes that Christians may eat bloud notwithstanding the decrée of the first generall Councell to the contrarie that a christian Magistrate may punish theft with death which in a Iewish Magistrate was a breach of the commaundement that it is a greater offence in a christian to haue Concubines and many wiues then it was in Dauid who notwithstanding was a man according to Gods owne heart that Christians should be tied vnto the law prescribed vnto the Iewes for marriage within degrées of affinitie and not vnto the like law prescribed to the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother dying without issue For all which you haue no warrant out of the scriptures Pro. For all these points of Doctrine wee haue sufficient warrant out of the booke of God and first concerning the Sabbath of Christians it is euident in the 20. of the Acts that the Christians did assemble themselues the first day of the weeke to heare Paul preach and to breake bread likewise in the 16. Chapter of Saint Pauls 1. Epistle to the Corinths it appeareth that Saint Paul did ordaine in all the Churches of Galatia that collection should be made for the poore vpon the first day of the weeke where hee doth also exhort the Corinthians to doe the like vpon the same day whereby it is euident that the Sunday was appointed by the Apostles to be the Christians Sabbath which is nothing else but a day of rest from labour and a day to bee bestowed in hearing the word preached breaking of bread whereby is meant administration of the Sacrament giuing of almes and other workes of deuotion and pietie for proofe whereof out of the places aboue alleaged I doe draw this
supposed to be deliuered and commended to vs by none but them These words though they seeme plaine haue some doubt which somewhat quaileth the force of them for it is not so easie to know whether ab ipsis should be referred to Apostolorum or posterorum howbeit I say further that the Traditions that Augustine speaks of are of the same nature with that one Tradition which he treats of in those Bookes against the Donatists namely the not rebaptizing of Heretickes which though it bee not expresly and explicately set downe in the writings of the Apostles yet Austine himselfe knew it might be soundly deduced out of the Scriptures and so hee testifieth almost in euerie Booke of that worke against the Donatists Haeres 75. The other place which he alleageth out of Austine sspeaks of a Tradition indeed but it was a Tradition of the Fathers not of the Apostles and euen so saith Epiphanius of the very same tradition Ecclesia hoc perficit traditione à patribus accepta the Church doth this by a tradition receiued from the Fathers In Philip. homil 3. And therefore Chrysostome went too farre when he sayth Ab Apostolis sancitum est it is decreed by the Apostles but though there be places of good shew in Chrysostome yet your Papist could say no more but that hee citeth a place out of the Canons of the Apostles and yet quoteth neither Booke Chapter leafe nor Homily where a man may finde it in Chrysostomes workes howbeit if hee meane the Apostles Constitutions he hath his answeare if those Canons that be set downe in the first booke of Councels I say they neuer sawe any of the Apostles but were begotten in later times as it is most cleere in the Canons themselues Can. 8. Si quis Episcopus aut presbyter aut Diaconus sanctum paschae diemante vernale aequinoctium ex Iudaeis celebrauerit abijciatur If any either Bishop or Priest or Deacon shall according to the manner of the Iewes celebrate the feast of Easter before the vernall equinoctiall let him be deposed If this had been inacted by the Apostles it may bee wondred how there could be such adoe about the feast of Easter betweene the East and West Churches the whole matter being so cleerely decided aforehand by the Apostles themselues Againe when we read in another Canon Can. 30. that such Bishops as came by their Bishoprickes by secular Princes should be deposed it is easily seene that some of these Canons were not shot off till the time of Christian Magistrates for Infidels I trow vsed not to giue Bishopricks neither was there euer any so farre beside himselfe as to seeke a Bishopricke by their meanes if this will not content your Papist then let him shew me some reason why these Canons are not set downe as a part of the new Testament but marked by Pope Gelasius for apochryphall Apud Gratian distinct 15. C. Rom. Ecclesia and then I will consider whether it bee needfull to giue him another answere Thus haue I runne ouer the choisest testimonies that hee could finde in all the ancient Fathers and Doctors for if hee could alleage all as it were with one mouth to speake for his blinde Traditions as here he bragges it is to be thought that either he hath chosē the best or els that he hath no iudgment as for Saint Iohns Gospell beside the Maiestie of the stile let him read Epiphanius against the Alogians and there hee shall finde some better proofes for the confirmation and defence of it than the testimonie and consent of antiquitie Nowe touching his Dilemma which hee takes to be so intricate a verie childe may easily dissolue it for wee doe not hold that any thing can make a damned hereticke but the stiffe and peruerse holding and auouching of such doctrine as is contrarie or inconsonant to the holy Scriptures whereof the Fathers are not guiltie neither will any Papist at this day stand in defence of such Traditions as agree not with the word written The Dialogue Sectio IIII. PRo Your learning I confesse is farre beyond mine yet if you will giue mee leaue to presse you with your own argument I doubt not but I shall compell you to make such an answere as may serue vs both Pap. Take your course Pro. You shall finde in Epiphanius Haeres 73. that the Apostles did ordaine that the Wednesdaies should bee fasted through the whole yeere except in the feast of Pentecost and that sixe dayes before Easter no sustenance should be receiued but salt bread and water Now if you doe thinke that these Traditions were left by the Apostles why doe you not obserue them and why doe you seeke to lay a burden vpon vs which you do refuse to beare your selfe Pap. You must vnderstand that from the first planting of the Church many thinges taught and deliuered by the Apostles haue béen altered and taken away partly by the Apostles themselues and partly a Then were their Successors ouer-sawcie vnlesse they had warrant in the Scripture so to doe by their Successors as the alteration of times and euents haue giuen occasion to alter or take them away for the good of the Church as the communitie of all things practised and allowed by the Apostles the office of b They were men as well as widow womē Rom. 12.8 Widdowes instituted by the Apostles the prohibition of eating of blood decréed by the Apostles the antiquitie did fast vppon the Euens of solemne Festiuall dayes and watch in the nights as the name Vigilia yet remaining doth testifie but when an abuse was perceiued to growe therby the watching was taken away the fasting being continued practised in the Church at this day August ad frat in Eremo Serm. 25. We might giue like instances of the Sundaies in Lent which were not fasted in ancient times with the Wednesdayes fast by you alleaged out of Epiphanius and many such like too long to repeat Out of which we gather with the Bée that the Apostles did ordaine many things in the Church which it is lawfull for themseleus c How prooue you their Successors might doe it and their Successors to alter or take away when time and occasion should require it for the good of the Church but if wée shall gather hereof that because the Church vpon graue deliberation hath taken away some d VVhat bee those things things deliuered by the Apostles that therefore Iohn Caluin or any other priuate man may at his pleasure reiect other some we shal sucke poyson with the Spider if I should argue with you that because you doe reiect the Wednesdayes fast which was e VVe heare you say so a Tradition of the Apostles that therefore wee may reiect the obseruation of the Sunday it would séeme but a weake argument although you could be content to confesse that the obseruation of Sunday is grounded onely vppon the Tradition of the Church which to doe were lesse shame
labours This place is cleere yet Bellarmine hath scraped together two answeres one out of Anselmus who saith that Saint Iohn speakes of the time that followeth the last iudgement which is absurd for then he would haue sayd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from thence-forth not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from hence-forth his other answere out of Haimo and Richardus De S. Victore restraines the comfort of this heauenly voice to Martyrs and perfect men which is a male part impounding of the grace of God common to all that keepe the commaundements of God and liue and die in the faith of Iesus it will trouble Bellarmine and Victor let father Haimo help them to perswade wise men that Meri in Domino to die in the Lord is more proper to perfect men than Nubere in Domino 1. Cor. 7.39 to marry in the Lord to perfect women howbeit these two answeres play at hard-head and beat out one anothers braines Anselmus cannot abide we should allow the one and Haimo and Victor wil be starke angrie with vs if wee allowe the other and therefore to please both sides it will be our best way to allowe neither But to proceede Chrysostome makes another petition for the dead that they may finde the Iudge fauourable wherin we must consider two things the sentence of the Iudge and the Execution The sentence is either particular presently after death Eccles 11.26 or generall at the last day in the clouds of heauen touching the former Chrysostomes petition for fauour comes too late and touching the other it must needs bee either venite benedicti patris mei come ye blessed of my father or else ite maledicti in ignem aeternum Math. 25.34.41 goe ye cursed into hell fire no praying or sacrificing can either reuoke or alter this sentence Ego Iehoua non mutor I am the Lord Malac. 3.6 Genes 18.25 and change not and as the Lord is immutable so his sentence both first and last is iust Shall not the Iudge of the world doe right saith Abraham as if he should say it is impossible it should be otherwise wherefore if any fauour bee to be found it must be in the execution Psal 103.20 Now the Executioners being either Angels or Diuels Angels must doe the will of God as it is enioyned them at the Diuels hands no fauour can bee looked for nowe what 's next verily it is hard to tell vnlesse we call vpon God to rectifie that which is right to mend that which is not amisse to vndoe that which is done well and to mitigate that punishment which is no sharper than it ought to be it may well stand with the folly of mans affections to make such prayers but it will hardly stand with the wisedome and iustice of God to giue them the hearing Suffragia aut ad hoc prosunt vt plena sit remissio Enchirid. cap. 110. aut tolerabilior damnatio saith Austine Suffrages are profitable to make either remission of sinnes more perfect or damnation more tollerable but how remission or mitigation of an absolute and a iust sentence damnatorie Ad supplicium tantum tale To punishment so great and of such qualitie being vnder execution can possibly stand with Ego Iehoua non mutor in Malachy it passeth the reach of all the wit learning I haue to determine Wherfore well might Chrysostome say Nouerunt the Apostles knew what profite redounded to the dead by commemoration in the dreadfull mysteries for hee himselfe knew not how the prayers of Priest and people could profite the dead much lesse how annuall commemorations could doe it And here let it bee considered how vntowardly Chrysostome disputeth the Apostles knew that commemoration of the dead at the altar was profitable vnto them Ergo the Apostles ordained it should be so I will not stand vpon the sequele let that goe for good but how knewe Chrysostome what the Apostles knew who reuealed their counsell vnto him if any bodie told him what reason had he to beleeue it if no bodie told him what reason had he to say it and therefore he that loues Chrysostome best must needs confesse that his antecedent is more doubtfull than his conclusion but when hee reasoneth further that the people and Priest stretching out their handes to heauen must needs appease Gods wrath Ergo commemoration of the dead is profitable hee is much ouer-seene for commemoration of the dead and praying fot the dead are not the same as the Papists themselues knowe and confesse De purg lib. 1. cap. 5. Epiphanius nusquam dicit orari pro sanctis sed memoriam fieri saith Bellarmine Epiphanius neuer saith we pray for the dead but hold a memorie of them And therefore herein Chrysostome is forsaken of all his friends both Papists and Protestants howbeit the growing of this vnluckie twigge from profiting the quicke to profiting the dead from commemorating at the altar to praying offering and sacrificing at the altar from thankesgiuing to intreating c. is here made knowne vnto vs so as now it is become a tree of so great spread that a number of vncleane birdes build their nests in the braunches of it The Dialogue Sectio X. TErtullian a This ancien father was a Montanist and a Chiliaste as it appeareth by this place This ancient father reasoning with a woman whose husband was dead concerning the bond that did still remaine betwéene her and her dead husband concludeth thus Let her pray for his soule let her intreat that he may be refreshed b VVhat bond see Rom. 7.2 He puts out and in and misordereth Tertullians words in the meane time and that at the resurrection she may haue the fruition of his company these things if she do not it may be truely said of her that she hath forsaken him infinite are the places which might be alledged to this purpose but this may suffice to prooue that this was the beléefe and practise of the c Ierome saith that Tertullian was not homo ecclesiae a man of the church Church in Tertullians time who liued néere vnto the Apostles that in Epiphanius Ambrose Austine Chrysostomes d All these were of one time and onely Chrysostome fathereth this Tradition vpon the Apostles it was holden for a Tradition left by the Apostles and generally beléeued and practised through e That which he called the Latine church is here called Vniuersall c. Vide Sect. 7. the vniuersall Church and that it hath euer since bin so beléeued and practised through the world vntill the bore affirmation of Luther that there was no such Tradition left by the Apostles preuailed more with you than the authoritie of all these ancient fathers and the long continued practise of the vniuersall Church to the contrary The Answere YOur Papist heere alleadgeth Tertullian and for very shame concealeth the place where this testimonie is to be found if he had but named Tertullians booke
de Monogamia it had been a sufficient preseruatiue against the contagion of this allegation for Ierome noteth this very booke In Catal. Eccle. script and the booke de exhortatione ad Castitatem and some other to haue been written aduersus Ecclesiam against the Church and the same father writing against Heluidius would not vouchsafe to answere a place alleadged out of Tertullians booke de Monogamia no otherwise then thus de Tertulliano nihil amplius dico quà m Ecclesiae hominem non fuisse of Tertullian I say no more but that hee was not a man of the Church so then Tertullian was a paracleticall Montanist and the first father of the Tertullianists which Austine speakes of in his booke of heresies ad quod vult Deum Secondly the booke de Monogamia is condemned of the Church and lastly this very place hath two plague-sores running of it as being infected with two capitall heresies Tertulide Monogam namely the heresie of the Montanists and the heresie of the Chiliasts these be the words pro anima eius oret refrigeriū interim adpostulet ei in prima resurrectione consortium offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius nam haec nisi fecerit verè repudiauit quantùm in ipsa est c. Let her pray for his soule and desire refreshing for him in the mean time and his companie in the first resurrection and let her offer yerely on the dayes of his death for if he do not these things she hath as much as lyeth in her made diuorce Here wee see first that Tertullian doth not say ores but oret adpostules but adpostulet offeras but offerat feceris but fecerit repudiasti but repudiauit quantum in te est but quantum in ipsa est whereof it followeth that hee doth not reason with a woman but speake of a widow woman reading her a Cataphrygian lecture not to marry againe but to pray for the soule of one husband to intreat for a refreshing to one husband to desire companie of one husband to offer yeerely for one husband c. for being a Montanist he thought it a fowle shame for her to pray thus for many husbands Lib. de exhort ad Castit duplex iste rubor est a double shame saith hee in another place nay triplex and quadruplex if happily she marry so often and so pray for the soules of so many husbands wherefore we see by this little light that praying and offering for the dead is held by Tertullian as an appurtenance to Montanisme or the Cataphrygian heresie and this is yet further strenthened in that Phylastrius saith the Montanists held baptizing for the dead which could not be done without prayers Now touching the other heresie of the Millenaries or Chiliasts your Papist translateth in prima resurrectione in the first resurrection at the resurrection leauing out prima as a note of shame for if there be a first resurrection it followeth that there is another call it a second resurrection or what you will Now euerie bodie knowes that the Chiliasts held two resurrections one at the next appearing of Christ in the cloudes which blesseth all the godly with all bodily pleasures meat drinke venerie c. Another a thousand yeeres after when the wicked shall likewise be restored to felicitie Apoc. 20.5.6 If any happen to reply that Saint Iohn though he be no Chiliast speakes of a first resurrection as well as Tertullian I answeare that Saint Iohn by first resurrection meaneth regeneration which Paul calleth a rising againe with Christ and so Beda expoundeth it Colos 3.1 Beda in Apoc. 20. saying Sicut prima mors in hac vita est per peccata ita prima resurrectio in hac vita est per remissionem peccatorum As the first death is in this life by sinnes so the first resurection is in this life by the forgiuenesse of sinnes But Tertullians first resurrection cannot be so vnderstood vnlesse wee imagine this life to be after this life which is impossible This is inough I trow and too much for answere to Tertullian yet another tricke of false translation would not bee passed ouer for where Tertullian saith refrigeriū interim adpostulet ei in prima resurrectione consortium referring the word interim to the intermediall time before the woman enioy her husbands companie hee translateth it so that it must needs be referred to the refreshing of his soule before the first resurrection in purgatorie or some place of sorrow which is not to be gathered out of this place for refrigerium doth not import a former griefe but a new blessing And so this widow woman is not yet willed to pray for relaxation of paine but that her husband may haue a ioyfull sentence of blessednesse in bodie and soule in the first resurrection at what time shee was to expect the fruition of his companion Againe obserue how this Popish translator hath vtterly omitted these words offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius whereby light is giuen vs that all this praying and offering was but a matter of course and custome continually performed for preseruation of the memorie of our friends and Christian brethren deceased as there were annuall oblations Tert. de Coron milit pro dormitione for death or sleeping so then were also pro natalitijs for the birth and as the one was rather an honour to the dead than an acknowledgement of their miserie so was the other yet now oblationes pro natalitijs are cleane taken away and oblationes pro dormitione or pro defunctis still continued or rather augmented or to speake more truely cleane changed from the first institution howbeit I will not denie but Tertullian in time might haue some good conceite of purgatorie or hell rather for he cals it infernum Lib. de Anima sect 17. but I vtterly denie that euer he held any such doctrine before he was a Montanist or euer knewe it till his Paraclete taught him in his Apologie against the Gentiles within a lease or two of the end thus he writes Ideò representabuntur corpora quià neque pati quicquam potest anima sola sine stabili materia id est carne animae non sine carne meruerunt intra quam omnia egerunt Therefore shall the bodies also represent because both the soules offer any thing without stable matter that is the flesh and the soules haue not deserued any thing without the flesh in which they haue done all things This opinion is not to be liked of yet Tertullian held it so long as hee was a Catholicke and therefore so long as he was a Catholicke Purgatorie would not downe with him nor prayer for the dead neither if your Papists owne consequence bee good And that Tertullian drew this purgatorian conceit such as it was from Montanus his Paraclete doe but read the last conclusion of his Booke de Anima thus hee writes Quum carcerem illum quod
little before out of Austine Martyr Priests we read of none specially so called in Gods holy word but either Leuiticall or after the order of Melchizedech Heb. 7.12.18 wherof the one gaue place to Christ the other hath place in Christ and in Christ onely for this priesthood is said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heb. 7.24 that is such as passeth not from one to an other successiuely as did the Priesthood of Aaron and this is yet further strengthened in that the ministers of Christ hauing so great varietie of names in the new Testament to shew what their office is and what they haue to doe in Christs Church are no where named priests which the holy Ghost that knew best how to giue fit names would neuer haue done if Christ had euer instituted such a kingly priesthood to succeed him wherefore the Priesthood of Melchisedech figuring onely the euer-standing neuer-passing priesthood of Christ for no other Priesthood can possibly be answerable to the paterne of Melchisedechs priesthood it must follow that such as challenge to be Priests after Melchisedechs order are sacrilegious traytors against Christ and lay violent hands against his royall prerogatiues Neither is this doctrine preiudicall to the sacrifice of prayer and thankesgiuing which needeth no erection of a speciall priesthood for as it is a common duetie so we are all in generall a holy and a kingly priesthood to offer vp spirituall sacrifice acceptable to God through Iesus Christ 1. Pet. 2.5.9 Reuel 1.6 and to shew foorth the prayses of him that called vs out of darkenesse into his marueilous light so then the sacrifice of prayer and thankesgiuing may euery Christian offer in priuate by himselfe and publikely by the mouth of Gods minister other sacrifice the old fathers knew none Iustine Martyr saith In dial cum Triphone that supplications and giuing of thankes are the onely perfect and acceptable sacrifices to God 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for these onely Christians haue learned to offer where the force of the preposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to be obserued Vide Bez. Annot in Math. 1.20 which teacheth vs that these Christians of these times had receiued this only kind of sacrificing and no other of the fathers and teachers that were before them Ad Scapulam Againe Tertullian saith Sacrificamus pro salute imperatoris sed Deo nostro ipsius sed quomodo praecepit deus pura prece The dead must be prayed for when they are remembred at the sacrifice in their order and it must be declared that it is offered also for them In which words after he had sayd generally we sacrifice for the health of the Emperour he then restraines this sacrifice first to the true God and then secondly to the Christian maner of sacrifycing in pure prayer as the true God had commanded teaching vs that God neuer gaue commandement to offer any other sacrifice vnto him and if he had no doubt but the Christians of Carthage and other places in Afrike would haue offered most readily and willingly for the safety of the Emperour These two fathers both in regard of their great antiquitie plainesse of their testimonie are of sufficient force to shew that the first Churches neuer knew what the Popist sacrifice of the Masse meant yea but will you say likewise that they knew not the sacrifice of the Almes for these two testimonies are as full against the one as the other not so by your leaue Dulcit questio 2. Enchir. cap. 209. Phil. 4.18 Mat. 9.13 12. epist 6.6 for Almes is contained vnder gratiarum actio and Austine saith it is gratiarum actio pro valde bonis and propitiatio too pro non valde malis Howbeit Almes though Saint Paul call it a sacrifice yet needeth it no speciall priesthood to offer it neither is it an immediate seruice of God as prayer is but mediately pleaseth him as a worke of the second table and therefore our Sauiour saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I will haue mercy and not sacrifice and so sayd the Prophet Osea long before opposing sacrifice to the exercise of mercy Now comes in our Papist crying thus doe I prooue that the sacrifice spoken of in the fathers was neither prayer nor thankesging and therefore Iustine Martyr and Tertullian had neede to looke to themselues well let vs heare these worthie proofes and consider of them whether they be strong ynough to outface two fathers of so great antiquitie Austine saith he maketh mention of the prayers and sacrifices of the Church Lib. 10. cap. 15 as of two difficult things ergo it was not prayer No nor sacrifice neither by your leaue but a representation of the sacrifice of Christ for that 's Austines meaning as himselfe tels you in his booke De ciuitate Dei and so is the other argument to be answered where your papist tels vs out of Austine that the dead are releeued by the sacrifice of our redeemer whereas thankesgiuing can neither be so called nor yet relieue soules because we giue thankes for benefits receiued not for benefits to be receiued For Austine knew well ynough that to speake precisely there was no sacrifice of our redeemer in his time nor any time els after the death of Christ Dyonisius Eusebiu◠Chrysostome c. but that which himselfe cals signum representationem sacrificij a signe and representation of the sacrifice and other fathers a token a memoriall a recordation of the sacrifice of Christ now whether this recording the Lords death till he come 2 Cor. 11.26 doe releeue the soules of the dead it hath been already disputed But to graunt him more then either may bee graunted or he can possibly euince namely that it is indeed a sacrifice as it is called yet may it be said that it is so and is called so not absolutely in it selfe as it consisteth of dumme and deafe elements but in regard of prayer and thankesgiuing which be inseparably annexed vnto it otherwise it is not like that Austine would say that the sacrifice of the Altar for those that be valde boni Enchir. ca. 109. Dulcit quaest 2. is thanksgiuing now if this sacrifice pro valde bonis be thankesgiuing as Austine faith it is why may it not be said likewise that the same sacrifice pro non valde malis is prayer I am sure Austine saith it is propitiatio which includeth prayer and heere againe consider how weakely he disputeth when he saith that thankesgiuing which is for benefits receiued August ibid. not for benefits to be receiued cannot releeue soules c. For though it may be sayd that God rewardeth a thankefull remembrance of benefits receiued with new blessings yet Austine writes not any where that the vse of the sacrifice is alwayes to releeue but sometime to giue thankes in which regard it is called the Eucharist but for as much
weakenesse shall sooth himselfe with an ouer-weening conceit of the excellencie of his Priest-hood and so neglect the remedie that God hath appointed how can that man promise to himselfe any assistance from God to keepe him from falling Thus much briefly of euerie point of Doctrine and euery testimonie thereto belonging whereof you may gather that this second wound is easily healed I hope the disagreement that was between Paul and Barnabas doth not prooue them to be of two Churches or either the one or the other to be a damned hereticke The ancient Fathers were men and might erre and did erre many of them together euen whole Councels as it is apparant to the world yet God forbid that therefore wee should count them Heretickes and throw them ouer-boord out of the Arke of Gods Church No friend Papist though wee discent from them in some points of doctrine as they likewise discented from such as were before them yet all of vs hold one foundation and it was no part of their beleefe that such as held not these points were out of the Church neither is it any part of our beleefe Ad Fortunatianum Epist 111. that such as held them were damned Heretickes Austine saith Catholicorum laudatorum hominum disputationes velut scripturas Canonicas habere non debemus vt nobis non liceat saluae honorificentiae quae illis debetur hominibus aliquid in eorum scriptis improbare atque respuere We ought not to haue the same in regard the discourses of Catholicke and laudable men as the canonicall scriptures that we may not sauing that honour which is due to those men disallow and refuse something in their writings And when Ierome had alleaged the authoritie of sixe or seuen Fathers against Austine Epist 19. in defence of Peters hypocrisie Austine is bold to answere him thus Solis eis scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum authorem scribendo aliquid errasse firmissimè credam Alios autem italego vt quantalibet sanctitate doctrinaque praepalleant non ideo verum putem quia ipsi ita senserunt sed quia per illos authores canonicos vel probobabili ratione quòd à vero non abhorreat persuadere potuerūt I haue learned to giue this reuerence and honour only to those bookes of the holy scriptures which are now called Canonicall to beleeue assuredly that no authour of them did erre in writing any thing But others I read so that of how great learning or holinesse soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a thing to be true because they thought so but because they were able to perswade it by those Canonicall authors or by some probable reason agreeing with the truth The Dialogue Sectio XXIII PRo The Doctors did erre grosly in many things as you must of force cōfesse therfore a feeble foundation are they to build our saluation vpon Austine wrote his Retractations in the doctrin of purgatorie which you labor so seriously to build vpon his authoritie he was so a These places are too hot for our Papist to handle doubtfull and wauering that sometime he writeth thereof doubtfully as fieri potest it may be that there is such a thing forsitan ita est peraduentute it is so sometime he seemeth to affirme it and sometime he flatly denieth it Irenaeus held that the soules of the righteous should remaine in a place appointed for them of God and not enter into heauen before the generall resurrection Tertullian wrote a booke of the vnlawfulnesse of second marriages Hilarie held that Christ did walke vpon the water by the nature of his body Thus could I run ouer all the Fathers and find in them many such points of doctrine which you doe no lesse detest then we doe those things which you doe labour to build vpon their authoritie Now tell me why doe we exclude the Fathers out of our Church by refusing some of their opinions more than you doe exclude them out your Church by refusing of other some or why is it not as free for vs to reiect their authoritie in the one as it is for you to reiect it in the other or why may not I argue as you doe against vs that because these doctors did hold these opinions which I haue set downe that therefore the vniuersall Church in their time did imbrace the same or if that their said opinions had bene erroneous that some men or other would haue impugned thē by writing Pap. Your answere doth consist on diuers points b VVhere or whē here I am sure you do not all which I wil prosecute particularly and in order first therefore I must not denie that the doctors were men and that they were not without their blemishes and errors c VVe must d sappoint you of your hope Looke the answere hoping that you will also confesse that they were such men as for their great learning and piety haue euer bene admired and had in high reuerence of all posteritie and accepted for the principall workemen in the building of Gods spirituall Temple next vnto the Apostles of Christ To erre is incident to mans frailtie and to d As you papists doe persist in an errour is brutish but to e As you papists cannot abide to doe acknowledge and recant an errour is the worke of the holy Ghost and a great argument of an humble and weake spirit and therefore if you seeke to detract from Saint Austines doctrine by abraiding him with his Retractations you doe but séeke to quench the flaming fire with powring oyle vpon it but if you doe f VVe insinuate that euery thing is not Gospel that S. Austine writes infinuate by alleaging of his Retractations that he hath retracted any thing by me alleaged against you out of his workes the booke is extant let the iudge be brought foorth your next allegation whereby you seeke to extenuate Saint Austines authoritie is the instabilitie of his g His doctrine touching purgatorie but now simply as you insinuate doctrine for one while say you he affirmeth another he denieth another he doubteth it were an hard matter for you to perswade any man to credit you héerein that hath read how famous Saint Austine was for his great learning amongst the Gentiles before the conuersion and how after his conuersion hée hath bene euer held for the most learned doctor and subtile disputer that euer flourished in the Church for who so h Beleeue not vs but your owne eyes look and peruse the places beleeueth you herein must also beléeue therewithall that S. Austine had neither learning wit nor regard of his repuputation but let vs admit that such foule blots as you do pretend had dropped from his pen is it not like think you that in his i VVhat if he were not resolued when he wrote his Retractatiōs how then Retractations they should haue bin discouered and
the other why we doe not exclude them out of our Church as you haue excluded them out of yours Pro. You shall find in the Fathers as many places against those points of doctrine as you shall find for them and besides that many bookes fathered vpon the fathers are bastards Pa. It is a great argument of a y It will at length pull the crowne from your Popes head as desperate as you make it desperate cause when we sée the authoritie of any authenticke writer so plaine and direct against vs as it cannot be auoyded by any glosse or colourable interpretation to seeke to euade by carping at contrarietie in the same writer and in so doing wée shall shew our selues more desirous to obscure a truth than to bring it to light touching your last obiection I am content vpon any reasonable cause of challenge to forbeare to vouch any booke that you shall suspect of bastardy Thus haue I answered all your cauils and calumniations obiected against the auncient doctors which is your last refuge for when you cannot tell how by some cunning interpretation or glosse to vnloose the knot your manner is to cut it in sunder and to breake away The Answere WEe are come now to a great deale of void talke of the errors of the fathers and doctors and Austines retracting and wauering in the doctrine of purgatorie The first is confessed not simply but vnder hope that wee will also confesse that the doctors were not onely admired for their learning pietie but accepted also for the principall workemen next vnto the Apostles which cannot be confessed without iniurie to the Euangelists and other that had extraordinary graces and power from aboue a long time after the Apostles Iren. lib. 2. 28. lib. 5. 1. Eusebius histo eccles lib. 3. 34 lib. 5. 7. 9. as appeareth in Irenaeus and Eusebius besides that we may not thinke a few fathers whose writings remaine extant to be excellenter workemen than a thousand other whose writings are lost and their names forgotten in the world These few doctors whose bookes wee haue were worthy men yet one more worthy than another and no one of them nor all of them together to be preferred to those that were before them And heere let it be obserued that Tertullian as he is a Montanist is set down for one of of these admirable doctors of the Church for he erred not in the case of second marriages while he was a Catholicke doctor but when he was an hereticke and fallen from the Church nay see further how intollerably hee defaceth the fathers when he goeth about to magnifie for if they looke vpon them to handle high mysteries beyond their capacitie and were caried in heat against heresie to the contrary extreame verily their learning and piety may well be doubted of and if they could not see the trueth vnlesse it were called into question determined by the Church there is no great reason why they should be so highly admired and had in reuerence What man why say you so the doctors had their errors and imperfections no otherwise then Saint Peter had whom Saint Paul withstood to his face and will you not admire and reuerence Saint Peter Yes sir that I will for wee speake not here of errors in liuing which neuer any but Christ was free from but errors in writing whereof Saint Peter was neuer guiltie and therefore bethinke you how this suspicious and irreuerend calling of Saint Peters credite into question to cloake the fathers errours withall can be the part of a good Catholicke we beleeue Saint Peter neuer erred in any thing he hath written but you shal hardly driue vs with all your wharting to beleeue the like of our new writers or your old doctors much lesse the autors of prophane Histories but why keepes this man all this doe trow ye would he haue vs pinne our religion vpon the sleeues of the doctors and ciuill Historiographers too will nothing else please him Yes hee tels you he will be content if you will credit an vniforme consent and harmonie of diuers doctors producing themselues for eye witnesses and a thousand other like witnesses with them well when I heare those thousand other speake then he shall haue my answere In the meane while haue we commended to him and tell him that I cannot beleeue a million of thousands when they say nothing and heere I beseech you note how his wit ebbes and his tongue flowes beyond the bankes of all possibilitie they write saith he that praying and sacrificing for the dead was vniuersally obserued in all Churches they were present themselues and hard and saw it done and thousands moe with them c. Quid audio Did they heare and see it done in all Churches vniuersally this is no lie my Lord and that 's all that I will say to it Now touching Austine we so much the more admire him in that he retracted his former errors as many as hee could well-obserue in his owne workes neither doe wee doubt but that he would haue retracted more if he had liued longer could haue considered deliberately of all that hee had written howbeit he wrote diuers bookes after his retractations neither could he so narrowly looke into euery corner of his workes but that many things worthy to be retracted slipt through his fingers to be short his retractations do euidently shew that as he was a good and an honest minded man so he altered in opinion as hee grew in yeeres and was better instructed by long experience and trauell in diuinitie and so consequently that he is so farre forth to bee receiued as he buildeth vpon the foundation of the canonicall scripture such building will stand without retracting all other doctrine as it begins in man so man may end it neither can it stand any longer than man listeth to vphold it This wauering in the matter of Purgatorie our Papist denieth impudently cryeth in an agony shew me where Saint Austine doth deny purgatorie as I haue shewed you he hath affirmed it alas he hath shewed Austines affirmation out of the counterfeit sermons and Homilies neuer either written or preached by Saint Austine which is a most simple kind of shewing but why doth he aske where Austine denieth purgatorie and neuer asketh one word where he doubteth of it These be fine fellowes that aske after such points as they thinke they can hold talke of and can suffer other things to passe by as if they saw him not Howbeit our Protestant heere cites a place out of Austines Sermons De verbis Apostoli which is little to the purpose Serm. 4. yet notwithstanding where our Papist answereth that he knoweth no third place for infants but either heauen or hell what doth he else but disclaime his limbus puerorum which Pope Innocent the third Cap. maiores extra de bapt and most of the schoolemen place aboue purgatorie and will needs haue it to be
I argue saith he to the vtter ouerthrow of your interpretation how I pray you marry you shall heare if Christ giue authoritie of building and loosing onely to his disciples and their successors then cannot preaching be that building and loosing why so man because a learned lay man may bind and loose in that sense as well as an ignorant and vnlearned minister what is this I heare may a lay man preach the word or any ignorant and vnlearned minister either we allow no such blind preachers as you doe Priests Rom. 10 15. Hebr. 5 4. and Paul excludeth the laity from preaching when he saith how shall they preach except they be sent And againe no man taketh honour vnto himselfe but he that is called of God as was Aaron but marke this arguing a little better preaching forsooth cannot be binding and loosing because a learned lay man is able to preach and may not a learned lay man bind and loose too as formally as your popish Priests you will say no because he is not authorised so to doe by the Church and I say againe that he hath as good right to bind and loose as to preach the Gospel and therefore our papist must looke out some new premises if euer hee looke to haue good of his conclusion Harding one of the captaines of his hoste saith that if remitting sinnes consist in pronouncing and denouncing of the Gospel euery lay man yea women Cont. Apolog. Cap. 6. Diuis 2. yea yong boyes girles may assoile sinners yea euery man may assoile himselfe but these fellowes neuer looke at the order of their owne Synagogue where an old wife or a young girle is authorised to baptize and so consequently to remit sinnes the Church of Rome oftentimes rolleth vp the power of the keyes in a bull of lead and sends it abroad to seeke his fortune by a lay pardoner yet make they no doubt but remission of sinnes is annexed vnto it but if we say as Christ saith Math. 23 13. Luk. 11.52 woe be to them that take away the key of knowledge and so shut vp the kingdome of heauen that they that would enter cannot come in this forsooth must needes bee farre fetched and the litterall sense will not beare it But what should a man spend his leasure with such vntoward and insensible triflers that will needs authorise the Pope to pardon the soules of the dead for not performing bodily penance we hold saith he that the Pope hath power to release alter or mitigate temporall penance both in the life time of the partie and also after his death if any of his penance be vnperformed and so our soules must fast bread and water they must repent in sackecloth and ashes they must whippe themselues like Iesuits and shed teares and wring their hands and lie vpon the cold ground and goe barefoot and barelegd and such like if it please not the Popes holinesse to release them but by your Popes leaue I had rather beleeue the voice of God from heauen that tels me that such as die in the Lord are blessed and rest from their labours at the least wise they must needs rest from corporall pennance Cardinall Allens learned discourse is answered long agoe and the answere hath meate drinke and lodging among you without contradiction but let Allen and all his fellow Cardinals say what they can yet this I am sure off the Pope can haue no power ouer any of the dead but onely Gods chosen for reprobates are beyond his reach Rom 8.33.38 39. of the chosen thus saith Saint Paul who shall lay any thing to the charge of Gods chosen it is God that iustifieth who shall condemne and a little after I am perswaded saith he that neither death nor life nor Angels nor principalities nor powers nor things present nor things to come nor height nor depth nor any other creature can separate vs from the loue of God which is in Christ Iesus our Lord. But to let this passe if it be demanded what cause the Pope hath to pardon that which the dead cannot bee charged withall what will or can any papist possibly answere he that is charged with foure or fiue or two yeeres penance or lesse if he be preuented by vntimely death must either be discharged or else be punished for not doing that he cannot do which himselfe a while a goe thought to be absurd if it bee sayd that in this case God punisheth not for omission of penance but for the sinne for which penance was inioyned Mar. 2.7 Luk. 5.21 and not done then the Pope must be sayd either to forgiue that which cannot be required and that 's folly or else the sinne which remained vnsatisfied and that 's blasphemie Yet notwithstanding this blasphemie is rise among papists Contr. Apol. cap. 6. diuis 2. Math. 9.2.6 Luk. 7.48 howsoeuer this fellow heere would faine hide it as the sonne of man saith Harding remitted sinnes to him that was sicke of the Palsie to Marie Magdalen euen so he hath transferred the same power vnto Priests and againe sinnes are released by the power of the keyes in the Sacrament of penaunce to the benefit of them that after baptisme be relapsed and fallen into sinne againe of which power Apol. cap. 6. diuis 1. De author eccles concil supr contr scriptur no Christian doubteth vnlesse he be a Nouatian hereticke And againe the Nouatians were condemned by the Church because they denied that Priests in the Church had authoritie to remit sinnes and so denied the Sacrament of penance Cardinall Cusan Haec ligandi soluendi potestas non minor est in ecclesia quà m in Christo This power of binding and loosing is no lesse in the Church than in Christ Your owne Cardinall a In his Booke of Priesthood Allen saith that the Pope forgiueth sinnes properly And Pope Iulius Iulius Concil tom 1. de primat Rom. eccles Habet sacrosancta Romana ecclesia potestatem singulari sibi priuiligio concessam aperire claudere ianuas regni caelestis quibus voluerit The holy Church of Rome hath by a speciall prerogatiue power graunted vnto it to open and shut the gates of the kingdome of heauen to and against whom it will Wherefore if the case be so plaine as this papist seemes to make it why doe they not make vs a new expurgatorie Index that may blot out these and many moe such sawcie seazings vpon the Lords owne peculiar out of their bookes No no howsoeuer they face out the matter yet are they the sonnes and heires of those priests that Ierome speakes off In Math. cap. 16. who thought they had power to absolue the wicked and condemne the innocent and were woont to say euen in Saint Austines time Nos sanctificamus immundos August de fide oper ca. 14 nos iustificamus impios nos petimus nos impetramus Wee sanctifie the vncleane we iustifie