be feared at your own weapoÌ„s euen vpon your most aduantage Let it be Turn vnto some of the Saints yet haue you no more but opinion and the opinion you most follow of new birth hatched first by Aquinas as may bee collected For as for Saint Augustines expounding it as Catholiques do I will let the Reader see and then judge One of your owne saith Pineda on the place Some take it spoken ironically and so it is for your purpose is it not By which is meant nothing lesse Alij seriò others take it spoken in good earnest but not therefore as aduising Inuocation Call saith Caietan vnto some of the dead let him be a man that hath liued most vnblameably put him to defend thy cause Assuredly not any will make answer because they are not their soules hauing diâ—d together with the bodies Cardinall Luther's great Antagonist was so farre from imagining any custome of Inuocation in the time of Iob which Bellarmine likewise denieth that he supposeth Eliphas to haue been an Atheist and to deny the soules immortality and what be commeth of your custome of Inuocation in his opinion in the time of Iob Eugubinus by Saints vnderstandeth holy men aliue and by Call not Inuocation but Allocution or naming of them And with him accord Philippus Presbyter and Polychronius as it may be collected by your owne Pineda Others by Saints mean holy Angels but present imployed to bee spoken to as apparitions were then frequent among those holy men either Leiger or extraordinarily imployed Angels Lyra runs another course not to the Persons but Precedents of Saints Reuolue the remembrance of Ages past as if Eliphas has said so and go consider the liues actions of holy men thou shalt finde them discussed exceedingly all but not impatient in affliction any of them In such diuersity of opinions and greater than this to conclude for Inuocation assertiuely none can none will but men like your self quiâ—us anima prosale S. Thomas alone must ouersway all because as Pineda confesseth he was the first that applied it to Inuocation Tandem sapienter D. Thomas sententiam hanc ad inuocationem pertinere voluit After all other Expositors saith Pineda he would haue it belong to inuocation of Saints Therefore put vp your Pipes for Saint Augustine singing that Catholique Song S. Augustine's words are these Indignatio quâ quisque angitur tanquam iniquè sibi aliquid acciderit dum non cogitat vsque adeò se immundum esse coram Dâ—â— vt innocanti Angeli non respondeant aut se demonstrare dignati sint qui enim hoc 〈◊〉 cogiâ—at stultus est irâ irrationabili interimitur Aut idcirco Angelos non audire non videre potest stultus quia ir â interemptus à zelo occisus Indignation saith he expounding the second verse which vexeth a man as if he were hardly dealt withall whilst he doth not remember that in Gods fight he is so vnclean that the Angels vouchsafe not to appear vnto him or giue him any answer when he calleth for them He that thinketh not so is a fool and killed of wrath Or thus A fool cannot heare or see the Angels because anger and wrath haue euen slain him Thus Saint Augustine in those Annotations bringeth a double exposition of those words in both according to the Septuagints reading whom hee followeth by Saints he vnderstandeth not men departed and with God as the Catholiques since Thomas doo interpret it but Angels of Paradise Secondly hee is not for calling vpon them for how could he if he held Bellarmine's Rule for Sancte Abraham but vnto them How As familiarly conuersing with them in those daies as often appearing and talking with them his very words either Guardians or otherwise Let it bee so now Saint Peter Saint Paul appear conuerse with demonstrate themselues to vs for my part I will speak to them to remember my necessities or cause to God as I would to your self or any other Christian for your Praiers or the Churches Thus what get you by Saint Augustine or your owne Bible I list see no more I haue seen enough already the vtmost I am sure that you can say and what I haue seen I haue satisfied already both in Scriptures and Fathers elsewhere These very places you haue named and many others I will not as you vse is actum agere onely this for your better direction or information in this point of Iouocation or rather Intercession through Allocution we do not we dare not pray to Saints that is speak to them or intreat them to pray for vs not for vnlawfulnesse of the act so much as for vnaptnes of the Agent for we are not perswaded nor can it be proued vnto vs by any Romish Catholick liuing that the Saints departed and now with God doo or can ordinarily by any power or ability in themselues hear see knowe take notice of the wants state cases or praiers of men on earth to be mindefull of them vnto God in heauen Nor can it bee prooued that otherwise God doth ordinarily reueal vnto them by any means those former specified that so they may take notice of them This must be prooued or it is in vain to pray to them vnlesse a man will hazard his state and all vpon vncertainties It sufficeth not that they knowe some things at some times in some places of some men extraordinarily for so wee are vncertain what Saints knowe what how much when by what means and so may well be blamed of folly for going about when wee may go direct vnto them when we may go to God Saue all other labour in this point prooue but onely this Their knowledge of any thing ordinarily I promise you straight I will say Holy Saint Mary pray for me till then you must pardon vs Protestants for not playing the fools with you XXXI That the bones or Reliques of Saints are not to bee kept No vertue proceedeth from them after they be dead YOu may keepe if you will and lock vp if you please in your Cabinet or Calket or where you will Saint Campions thumb Saint Garnets strawe Saint Loiolaes hayre which cured if I remember Michael Vasques of I know not what or that goodly Relique which at Denham once in Sir George Peckhams house courst the diuell vp and downe from Anne Smiths foot ouer all her body the Priest following Him with his hand vp and downe wheresoeuer the Spirit went And further take Saint Lipsius old breeches to shrine them in and the vertue that did or might drop from them our Lady of Sichem will perhaps lend them to so holy and deuout a purpose I know no Protestant will steale them from you But ad Textum as Marcellinus vseth to say your Texts of Scripture I meane As all the rest so this also is contrary to expresse words of our owne Bibles This say I but what Why two things are prooued or should be First that Reliques may
It is possible to keepe this Commaundement saith Bellarmine through assistance of Grace and so not to couet at all Which thing if St. Cyryl said hee said not onely more than hee can make good but more also than is required More than Bellarmine would haue him say or doth desire at his hands Nay more than he would approue in him or make good if he should say it For Non concupiscec thou shalt not couet goeth on so farre as to exclude euen veniall sins Which needeth not For our Masters yeelde vnto them and exclude no more but mortall sinnes It is possible to fulfill the Law Why Because the Law forbiddeth and condemneth onely mortall sinnes But a man cannot possibly auoide veniall sinnes Those therefore the Law forbiddeth not They may be Praeter beside the intent of the Law They are not contra against the Law Againe Non concupisces pricketh vp to that fomes peccati the sourse nurse and fomentation of sinne which our Masters confesse is not extinct cannot cease in the Regenerate If Saint Cyril saide that Non concupisces may be performed that is that the sustentation of Sinne may cease he said that which Bellarmine will not defend And you Sir Puny what are you For in this life that fomes peccati ceaseth not which your men maintaine against Prosper Dysâ—deus or Faustus Socinus and such impes of Sathan But indeede nor so nor so Cyril restrayneth Non concupisces thou shalt not couet or desire vnto one particular Act obiectiuely the not-lusting after or desiring of a Woman This Christ forbâ—d beyond the Law which at least was taken by them to inhibite no more but the outward act And this may be done many haue done it I make no question As for Concupiscence in generall it is apparant hee held it not as is imagined and held it altogether vnmasterable for hee saith Res est vt opinor ad quam pertingi nequeat It is in my opinion of that condition as no man can attaine vnto vtpote incomprehensibilis quodam modo supra naturam as being out of mans reach and compasse altogether and in a sort aboue the assise of Nature Thus Cyril albeit hee nameth Concupiscence yet taketh it not so as the aduersary pretendeth for any Concupiscence in large extent but onely in specie for that kinde of Concupiscence and no more which is in carnall affection to a Woman Many haue attained vnto this perfection neuer any vnto that but Iesus Christ in one flesh without sinne Saint Hilary vpon Psalm 118. saith somewhat it seemeth but not that which you would haue him say It is not hard are his words if our will be but present to fulfill the Commaundement of God Thus your Master C W. B. out of Bellarmine jugler as hee was and thus you as false a Traytour as hee As if it had beene Saint Hilaries minde A man that will may easily keepe the Commaundements and whole Law of God who nor said it nor yet thought it For hee vpon these words of the 119. Psalm Thy Commandement is exceeding large expoundeth large in a two fold sence First because the knowledge of Gods Law doth infinitely extend and aduance the vnderstanding of mans Ignorance that is Make ignorant men to vnderstand and know very much Or else because there are many parts of it many dueties required in it so that hee which cannot keepe one may keepe another and please God in one as hee may displease him in another It neither being required of any man to performe all nor possible for any man to performe all How like you this Doctrine Sir This is Hilaries resolution thus and no other way he concludeth that it iâ— possible to keepe the Law You shall haue his words at large not as they are curtailed by false knaues to deceiue men Latum plauè est siue quod in infinitum cognitionem humanae ignorantiae extendit Siue quod multa sunt in quib us Dei praecept is obtemperatur atque placetur secundum diuisiones munera gratiarum Non enim abomnibus omnia expectantur neque vniuersi vniuersa ad summam placendi implere possunt Alius 〈…〉 nio placet Simplicitate fidei promeretur alius alius vitia eleemosynis redimit c. Latum igitur mandatum Dei est in omnia spei nostrae genera diffunditur vt non difficile sit praecepto Domini obtemperare cum latum diffusum sit ad placendum officiosae religionis varietate It is then particular obedience which he speaketh of to any one point or precept of the Law Hilary to that purpose sets it downe praecepto not praeceptis not vnto the whole Law as is pretended So that much collusion hath been in this Testimony First by Bellarmine who taketh it by halfes for his aduantage Then by our English Succedor who geldeth it more to make it serue as an Eunuch the Babylonian turnes Next Saint Basil pronounceth it an impiety to say Impossibilia esse spiritus sancti praecepta Our English Iugler representeth it That the Commandements of God are impossible Of God For of the Spirit Why what materiall difference The Spirit is God and God is a Spirit Yet a difference betwixt the Commandements of God and Commandements of the Spirit For marke Saint Basil explaining those words Attende tibi saith they may be conceiued of two wayes Corporally looke to thy Body and the things thereof Spiritually and that which appertaineth vnto the state of thy Soule And he addeth they must be taken for the things of the soule because that which God commandeth as you will haue it or as he speaketh The Commandements of the Spirit are not impossible But to attend a mans body corporally is impossible For it cannot be that euery part of a mans body should be so perpetually in his Eye as that attendance be still vpon it The Eye cannot discerne it selfe nor yet any part of the head the backe or inward parts This is impossible therefore this is not the meaning For the Spirit would not command things impossible that is impossible in themselues where there is an impossibility betwixt the termes So that in Saint Basil impossibility is that impossibility which is not actionis susceptiua For as Halensis obserueth the Irrefragable Doctor Possibility is of two kinds Actiua and Actionis susceptiua Par. 3. memb 5. art 1. Now no man saith it is impossible to keepe any or all Gods Commandements because in and of themselues they are not keepeable The Eye is not susceptiua actionis to behold or see the things behind But that which the Spirit there commandeth is in it selfe possible to be done So Basil saith as little to the purpose as any other Writer doth whatsoeuer being arightly vnderstood and not peruerted in his meaning See Basil and if this be not his meaning let me be held as honest as this Gagger that peruerteth his sence a contrary way that is a false knaue Hierome lastly in his third
of Scripture or thereabout It seemeth strange vnto me that not one of these should fall foule vpon that infinite number of corruptions and falsifications which you talke so freely and loudly of vnto your Catholike Reader Had there beene any such thing to be discouered your charity wee know is no way so Transcendent as to conceale it wee should haue heard thereof on both eares to a purpose He can doe little that can not belye his aduersary in grosse though put him to proofe and he prooueth recreant Do this I challenge your Gagship if you can or dare or prooue your selfe a Gagler and a Goose for euer For variety of reading deprauation corruption falsification here I offer to charge and prooue your most Sacrosanct Authenticall edition of Trent in the best and most corrected copy you can choose is as guilty of at and euery one of these particulars as you or your betters can proue our Bibles to be When you will or when you dare vndertaken it shall be And this in my mind is but a cold comfort vnto a Catholike who opineth poore deceiued soule that hee may be secure and build his saluation vpon the facing impudency of euery light-skirt mountebanck and shaued emposter You do well to seale vp the truth and vprightnesse of this forlorne cause of yours with security and assurance that is to captiuate their vnderstanding with implicite faith For you know and I can make it good that let the Truth you talke of come to scanning Lucians true History will be as warrantable It is true I deny not our translations all and singular and so your owne done by your owne men differ both amongst themselues as also from the Authenticall Latin as you call it notoriously your Authenticall Latin differeth from it selfe Is this to the disparagement darkning and obscuring of the Catholike verity Looke you to that I can rid my hands of it well enough and cleere both our Church aâ—d Bibles of all such imputation or impeachment of Catholike verity any way If it bring such disparagement the reason is in my conceit you swarued euen from the Councell of Trent which neuer intended such a royal prerogatiue vnto your Latin edition as the Iesuits and Iesuited faction giue vnto it I speake not this to disparage it I professe I respect it as much as any Translation extant and to quite your kindnesse in being content to be tryed by our Bibles I will be tryed in any point the Church of England maintaineth this day against the Church of Rome by no other but your owne Authenticall Latin Eate your words Goodman Gagger I am your aduersary I professe my selfe I will and dare offer my selfe to giue what aduantage you can make thereof to be tryed by your owne Translation and to deserue your loue the more may happily ere long Gagge your mouth in this very kind of putting you to it with your owne translation In the interim put mee to it when you please I will not waue your so Authenticall Latin in maintaining the assertions of our Church And so much for your second point of aduice vnto your Reader Thirdly you aduise him somewhat farther off for generall affronting the Protestant in any point whatsoeuer as I can conceiue it in briefe thus The manner of the Protestant is in conference of controuerted points when he is vrged with text of Scripture plaine and euidens to beate backe the argument or as you phrase the thing to Counterpoint it with some other text of Scripture For instance when you bring those euident few words This is my body they vse to rebutt it with Iohn 6. 63. The flesh profiteth nothing the words that I speake vnto you they are spirit and they are life and by this allegation suppose they haue put by the point of your weapon or giuen you a great ouerthrow as you speake In such a case your aduice is to shew the party amiably that this is not to proceede by order and that he dealeth not with thee as he ought nor sincerely in opposing a passage darke and obscure to confound a passage that is most cleere A man may take good counsell of his enemy though against his will and so haue no cause to thanke him for it Sir Gagger of your selfe and your owne gagle this aduice we meane to make vse of and put it home to your selues as we haue occasion frequent enough I know no men guilty of this blameable carriage at least so guilty as your selues be I haue rubbed your memory with it sometime as it fell out But here hauing so iust cause you can not blame me if I gagge you with your owne gagge Misticall passages are not argumentatiue What so mysticall as the Reuelation In which are tot Sacramenta as many darke passages as there by words And yet we want not proofes of plainer particulars from mysticall signing in the forehead The number of the beast Power giuen to the Saints ouer nations What more absurd then to prooue ordinary oeconomy in Gods disposition by extraordinary dispensation This you haue done out of Math. 17. 3. Math. 27. 52. or points of faith as you would haue them out of a dreame 2 Mac. 15. 12. Prayer vnto Saints is defined in your Creed Your proofes for that against euident scripture Psal 51. 15. are Luk. 16. 24. Iob 5. 1. Without Purgatory Popery cannot stand The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 two pillars of Purgatory are those two places of S. Paul 1 Cor. 3. 13. 1 Cor. 5. 29. then which there are not two more obscure places in all the scripture Adde to them a third though of a baser alloy that intricate and depraued place of 2. Mach. 12. 44. I could goe further and gagge you Doper out of your owne practise Who if you had not so much honesty as to forbeare belying of your opposites should haue had so much discretion as not to obiect that vnto another which had you that good signe of a bad cause in you Blushing might ashame you being by recrimination retorted vpon your selfe I say belye for it is not better nor worse but euen so For Transubstantiation that monster of monsters you haue neuer done with This is my body Which we deny not either in words or sense The very body of Christ really receiued in the Sacrament of the Altar is warranted by those formall words of Institution This is my body but not per modum Con or Trans or any other like It is not said This is my body corporally eaten orally there carnally conceiued of grossely This cannot be say the Protestants and for proofe thereof that the thing being granted the manner cannot be so conceiued proceedeth thus That which one Scripture proposeth cannot bee contraried by another But this carnall sense of those words This is my body is contraried by another an instance In Iohn 6. 63. The flesh profiteth nothing as plaine a text against carnall eating of Christs flesh as can
be kept Secondly that vertue proceedeth from them Both these must bee expresly prooued or the man saith nothing and may hold his peace and pen both In the second of Kings or the fourth it skilleth not for our Bibles also intimate as much 13. 21. it is written that the boâ—es of Eliseus beeing touched by one that was dead they did reuiue him Thus we graunt it is written and we beleeue it what then Why This could not bee had not some vertue proceeded from them Good and what of that Therefore wee that hold No vertue proceedeth from them after they be dead are contraried by our owne Bibles If wee did hold so but wee hold not so Indeede wee hold and assuredly beleeue that Saint Campions thumb Saint Garnets strawe Saint Storyes halter neuer did nor shall euer raise vp any dead man Wee deny not Eliseus bones or Saint Peter's shadow or Saint Paul's napkins did worke wonders Sir Addle-head or idle pâ—te touching vertue from dead men thus wee hold this is our opinion Vertue hath often proceeded from the bodyes bones garments reliques of many holy men and blessed Saints dead and aliue not ordinarily or of and from them naturally but extraordinarily by dispensation as works of wonder wrought by God But these are not euer to bee had or seene Such works are of voluntary dispensation and therefore not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for all from all at all times The red sea was diuided for Israel to passe Iordan was driuen back more then twice by Iosua Elias Eliseus are you so wise to imagine so ridiculous to proclaime that all Seas and Riuers may so be serued Go try the Thames at Trigge Staires or Broken Wharfe that the world may take notice of you for a Frantick or an Impostor or the Iewes send and hire you to diuide Euphrates at their returne shortly vnto the holy Land For by your reason or else you ramble wide the water should giue you way For marke Eliseus bones did once raise a dead man to life therefore they had vertue issuing from them and residing in them therfore all Saints bones or reliques haue vertue that proceedeth from them perpetually naturally when they bee dead and you if you haue none may easily borrow such Reliques at the Brokers to serue a turn for the Catholick Cause This is your Logick if you remember what you haue learned Any particular may inferre a Generall Once it was done it may be euer at one time therefore alwaies Eliseus bones reuiued a dead man therefore all Saints bones and Reliques can do that or the like Acts 15. 14 15. And beleeuers were the more added vnto the Lord multitudes both of men and women insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streetes and layed them on beds and couches that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might ouer-shadow some of them This is not Acts 15 but Acts 5. But that may bee the Printers fault not yours Secondly heere is no expresse mention of vertue proceeding but of shadow ouer-spreading But you answer In our Bibles it followeth And they all might bee deliuered from their infirmities But what is that to purpose We are to be tried by our Bibles at your owne choice not by yours therefore you faile in your vndertaking And as for our Bibles they haue not that clause indeed no more haue the Editions of Catholiques nor the Copies vsed by Robert Steuen The old Translator I doubt not found it in his Copie and did expresse it so would wee haue done had we found it in ours for wee left it not ouâ— nor doe you say so of set purpose But fourthly let it bee added for wee grant it true it is not ad idem for you propound it of the Dead and prooue it of the Liuing Saint Peter was then aliue betwixt Liuing and Dead there is a maine difference the one may doe what the other cannot in my learning Lastly admit Saint Peter then dead because his shadow was no substance vertue is immanent and emanant and both two waies considered Naturally and ordinary or by dispensation and extraordinary It was no naturall quality in his shadow and as for endowments of dispensation they are particular and restrained now in beeing anon not From no Saint departed or aliue from no shadow or substance doth any such virtue issue naturally From many aliue and dead great vertue hath extraordinarily at times vpon occasions for special ends by dispensation And what then Therefore your Reliques can doe the like If this be the consequence I deny it Else because the Apostles could speake with tongues our Priests and Iesuites can doe the same Doe it and I yeeld But experience prooueth true you cannot now say Arise and walke What you cannot doe for Saint Peter's shadow Saint Augustine shall help at a dead Lift to bring the Text home Ser. 39. de Sanctis hee saith If the shadow of his body could help how much more the fulnes of his power I will not quarrell the Authority nor the Author though I may how the allegation should serue for reliques I cannot see except the Fulnes of power bee his Relique opposed to the shadow of his Body and that indeed is made a Relique of Saint Peter and it is the best that euer he left worth all his other Reliques whatsoeuer and therefore deserueth to bee kept charily in the Popes Wardrobe But that is a Relique of another kinde we speake of no such Reliques now Relique or not what expresse mention None nor regarded For the man hath recourse vnto consequence in stead of expresse mention and supposeth thus Saint Augustine supposeth two things The one that the shadow of his body beeing heere on Earth did both help and heale infirmities which Protestants Bible leaueth out And so did Saint Augustines Bible without doubt For hee supposeth it you say which hee needed not haue done had he found it expresse For supposition is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where words are plaine and no maruaile if Saint Augustines Bible did so for the Originalls did and doe so old and new Papists Bibles as well as Protestants neyther is it found in the Syriack Edition nor regarded by your owne learned Commentors onely cast in by such quarrelers as if the Protestants had depraued the Text sacrilegiously The other thing supposed by Saint Augustine is That beeing in Heauen hee can still help vs by his Power And what Power how help vs Saint Augustine doth not and you I think cannot resolue vs. Whatsoeuer it bee what reference to Reliques Not heer mentioned not to be inferred or say how The Relique your men dream of heer is plenitudo virtutis and gratiae permanent is which they were wont to presume to be that Omnipotency of his Sea Were you well serued you should be turned into the Inquisition for abating or trans-planting such his Power and depriuing his Supremacy of such a testimony in S.
Augustine of your owne And doo you mark it that I say your owne for this Saint Augustine is none of mine It is ser 29. in which this passage is not 39 as you mis-report it which is a Counterfet vnder S. Austen's name as the Louanists and other your owne men obserue There is a Commemoration of Saint Peter ' s chain you keep an Holi-day in memory thereof Augusti 1 and yet Saint Peter ' s Chain as Baronius obserueth was not found vntill Saint Augustine was dead Had the man been as he would seem Saint Augustine yet might hee haue been deceiued in his collection as wel as in somewhat else noted by Lorinus that hither tendeth For de Catechis rudib 23. he deliuereth that The shadow of Saint Peter passing along in the streets restored a dead man to life Do you finde this written in your Bibles I suppose not S. Augustine did without doubt in his or how is it that he saith it Therfore the Papists Bible hath left something out aswell as the Protestants Look vnto it and answer it as you can Acts 19. 11 12. And God wrought speciall miracles by the hands of Paul so that from his body were brought vnto the sick handkerchiefs and aprons and the diseases departed from them and the euill spirits went out of them Therfore what Vertue proceeded from Saint Paul when he was dead I deny that for Saint Paul was then aliue and aliues like Therefore this is for the liuing not the dead And yet take mee not so that I deny the thing Vertue may proceed from the true Saints of God dead and aliue I deny your proof and wonder at your wit that can go ab equis ad asinâ—s so easily as if both were fit Inmates for such an Animal as your self Asse Horse you for such prouender S. Chrysostome might very well inferre vpon the passages of Saint Peter and Saint Paul that Christ their Lord and Master was truely God whose seruants in his Name and by his Power nay their shadows and napkins did such wonders for Could any man do so except God were with him But all this winde shakes no corn First this vertue was not inherent onely incident Secondly it was miraculous so peculiar Thirdly it was Then those Times are done those napkins gone into Materia prima Shew such napkins or shadows and wee yeeld For no man doubteth what hath been done or may be done we go no further than to what is See more you so direct vs and wee had need or else we shall see your proofs by halues for hitherto wee haue onely heard of vertue proceeding from the Dead nothing touching keeping of Bones and Reliques Now haue at them or else neuer and indeed neuer for Ioseph's bones were carried by Moses out of Egypt What then Therefore bones of holy men may by warrant of that be digged vp shrined and preserued Happely they may in some cases but not therefore for this was a singular Fact which are no precedents for generall rules One Swallow maketh not Summer nor one Woodcock Winter but among Birds of that Bill and Feather Secondly as it was singular in Fact so speciall in Reason There was a Tie vpon Israel to doo that which they did Ioseph dying had bound them with an oath to do so Had our Lady so bound you for her smock or her milk you were excused Thirdly they carried them thence not to keep them which is your Tenet much less to shrine them or adore them which is your practice but to bury them in the Land of Canaan which they did Ios 24. 32. Doo you in like sort and wee applaud you with your Reliques So we see in this first place no more than wee looked for nothing to purpose nor in the second 2. Reg. 4. 8. Eliseus taketh vp Elias cloak that fell from him and wrapping it together smote the waters of Iordane which parted asunder A Text seeming to say somewhat for Elias cloak is Relictum a Relique to Eliseus and he took it But this is verse 14. not 8. but not yet a Relick for our purpose For what he did with it is not remembred it is like enough Eliseus wore it out We read not what he did with it whether he laid it vp and left it to posterity to be adored vnless you can prooue this you say nothing otherwise in your sense it is no Relique For keeping and adoring is all in all for them But let it be kept Eliseus did no more than I or any Protestant else should haue done For you mistake vs. The Reliques of Saints are not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with vs we dishonour not their garments much lesse their bodies hauing beene the Temples of the holy Ghost beeing againe to bee raised from the dust and be made like Christs glorious body By and in them at sundry times God hath miraculously magnified himselfe in his Power as when the body of Babylas made the Oracle mute in despight of Iulian that Renegado Then especially when there was great cause when Paganisme Persecution Opposition swayed for the manifestation of that Truth which in them by them had beene propagated Shew any such Relique and see what wee say vnto it It is naturall for any man to affect the remembrance or memorials of a friend to admire and make much of rare things not euery day seene Bring mee then a piece of the Crosse of our Sauiour one of the Nailes or some such memoriall of his Passion shew mee Moses Râ—d Saint Peter's Sword I will prize them aboue all the Iewels I can haue Will this content you I know no Protestant will doe lesse then so Worship them I dare not Shew them as you doe I would not as men do monsters in Fleet-street or Sturbridge Faire in this you abuse them too profanely making merchandize of the Word of God In that you profane them to Idolatry misleading the People to adore them This did not Antiquity nor doe wee In the Primitiue Church Memoriae Martyrum were in great esteem The place where they suffred or else where they were buried Heere commonly their Church-meetings were for diuine Seruice for receiuing the Sacraments with commemoration of their Passion and a collation to follow their noble Acts which was seconded with this opinion that those blessed Soules themselues by speciall grace and dispensation of God took notice of that generall Act of the whole Church and accompanied their deuotions with their own best assistance vnto the Maiesty of Heauen But times are changed mens manners altred Those Saints Reliques Memories and Oratories of the true Saints of God gon no where to be found coozening colluding fraud impiety come in place The miracles memories reliques of Saints in your Romane Church are all of them knowne to bee iuggling tricks of deceiuing knaues and if Saint Martin were aliue againe hee might finde out onely one mans Reliques but many thousands to bee the bones of theirs that died at the
gallowes for their sinnes nor of Martyrs that shed their bloud for Iesus Talk not then of Reliques and keeping of them but shew vs the Reliques true ones indeed and then blame vs if wee respect them not as Augustine or Ambrose or any antient Fathers did See your Fathers I need not I haue seene them often before euer I saw C. W. B. your good Benefactor whose scroles you haue filched euery where yet lest it bee thought there is some stuffe to bee seene which wee dare not set out to view the Reader shall see them if hee will bee so idle and haue so much leasure Eusebius in the seauenth booke and fifteenth Chapter relateth that the chaire of Saint Iames brother to our Lord and first Bishop of Ierusalem was kept preserued by his successors And what if Eusebius write thus it is no such great wonder for a chaire to last 300 yeeres in keeping of it I know no hurt or impiety as I doe in your Lipsanolatria For Eusebius doth not say that they worshipped it or that any vertue went out of it Though if you haue read the place as I thinke you neuer did you may remember that Eusebius there saith It was a custome taken vp from the Pagans as it was indeed and can demonstrate if need be But I take no exception at that originall as you would doe with vs for much lesse aduantage Onely this I adde It was no bone or Relique of Saint nor had any vertue issuing from it and therefore not to bee remembred heere Athanasius in the life of Saint Antony hath many passages the work is of some reasonable length Now what shall we see therein or whereabout you know not for C. W. B. did not informe you and you poore man are not so well prouided at home But well fare Bellarmine who would haue told you had you consulted him Hee doth informe vs who otherwise mought haue sought a needle in a bottle of hay and haue giuen the hay to this beast for prouender Saint Antony dying bequeathed his cloake vnto a friend the Legate accepteth it very kindely an example of kindnes giuen and taken no more If Saint Antony could haue giuen more he would haue done it had hee giuen lesse the Party would haue taken it It is not said He receiued it so as hee layd it vp kept it amongst his Iewels and plate Which if he did what is that to Protestants not adoring reliques did the man make an Idoll of his cloke did there any vertue come from that cloke If I knew you were acquainted with you I would bequeath a Cockscombe to you and you would lay it vp happly for a Relique for such fooles to adore Saint Basil in Psal 115. what doth hee say You know not for you were not told Let me help you Vpon those words Right deare in the sight of the Lord is the death of his Saints he dilateth touching the Persons and Passions of blessed Martyrs preferreth them before Garlands Iewels and precious stones opposeth the state of the time of Grace vnto that of the Lawe Then it was not lawfull to touch a dead body but hee that touched it was vncleane But now saith hee Hee that toucheth the bones of a Martyr somewhat partaketh of sanctifying power by that Grace which assisteth the body This was true in those times but those Martyrs are not those bodies are gone that grace is neither diffused nor effused at this day It was of that grace which then wrought wonders now no where to bee found your pretended Martyrs are scarce Christians some few good Christians your relicks impostures your miracles iuggling tricks lewd lies and forgeries Prooue them otherwise wee will doe as they did and giue them the respect Saint Basil did So wee answer you for Chrysostome and for Ambrose let the case bee the same which then it was our affections euery way shal be the same with theirs But those daies are done those Worthies gone impostors are euery where in euery corner In regard of these Iugglers and not with reference to the Heroick times I say with Tatian If God had made them hee speaketh of charmes and amulets to the purpose that men employ them hee should haue beene the Author of some euill But all things that God made were very good the diuell in his insolency rioting vpon them hath conuerted them vnto all purposes From him came first this euill custome with you in adoring you cannot tell what it neuer was the worke of the Perfect God For how is it or can it bee that while I liue I doe no hurt but beeing dead some piece some relique of my selfe without sense or feeling which can doe nothing which serueth not at all no more then I doe should operate or effect any thing How can hee that hath beene hanged himselfe possibly saue another from the gallowes or how can a bone of him that died of a fearfull disease deliuer another from the same Sir I beleeue Tatianus did prophecy so long agoe so graphicially doth he describe the impostures of your Romish Mountebanks in applying the Reliques and â—owzie fragments of Knaues Rake-hels and Traitors vnto I know not what wonder-working tricks of Leiger-de-maine XXXII That the Creatures cannot be sanctified or made more holy then they are already by their owne nature VNtill I had read ouer the whole passage and came at last to holy bread holy water holy ashes and the like trash and Mountebank wares I marueiled I confesse what this man meant by his position The Creature caÌ„not be sanctified c. For I know no Protestant but willingly acknowledgeth the Separation and Sanctification of the creature vnto diuine religious and holy vses I was sure our Church maintained and many waies practised the contrary there I found my error and so perceiued what the foole meant and whither the blind Buzzard did direct his groping that made boyes to laugh and hooâ— at him That the Creatures of God are good we beleeue as proceeding from a totall cause absolutely good that nothing ought to be refused as 1. Tim. 4. 4. if it be receiued with Thanksgiuing you rather deny then wee That the Word of God and Prayer doth sanctifie the creature to the seueral vses we profess willingly and practise it accordingly in all our courses Mat. 23. 17. we read subscribe that the Temple the seat of Gods Presence the House for his Seruice sanctified the gold employed in the Temple as beeing put vnto a religious vse That the Altar did sanctifie the Sacrifices offred vpon the Altar But if the Calues of Bethel had been placed in the Temple had they been sanctified vnto God by beeing in the Temple The Altar doth sanctifie the gift but so that it bee a gift for the Altar If a Dogge or a Cat were offred there it would bee no more holy or sanctified then the abomination was of desolation which was set vp in the Holy Place It is not the place that
departed receiue by the assistance of the Church To admit it euident and concerning succour which soules departed receiue and that by the assistance of the Church yet first I say you go from your word no such contrariety heer as you pretend Secondly you are a poor Ignaro that think soules must needs be in Purgatory that receiue assistance from the Church It may be your poor vnderstanding will wonder at it but knowe Sir I can admit Praier for the Dead and deny your Purgatory I can giue you reasons to pray for the Dead and yet keep farre enough from your Purgatory But for that some other time At present I answer You are a silly man that call this an euident place one of the hardest in all Scripture Quid sit baptizari pro mortuis obscurum est ab Authoribus variè exponitur say your owne men which is true For till this day it is not agreed what is the meaning no man can say This is the sense and yet our Blunderer saith It is euident Doo you knowe that some take pro mortuis for the Dead that is for sinnes because men die through sinnes and the works of sin are called Dead works And so men are baptized to be deliuered from sinne These men dreamt not of Purgatory That others vse pro mortuis that is doo represent the Dead because we die to sinne in Baptism and are buried vnto corruption And not much differing hence that others take it Into the death of Christ which of these thought vpon Purgatory Again some take Baptism for affliction men afflicted vnto death what shall they doo if the dead rise not again Some referre it vnto a Iewish custome by which if a man had died polluted another was clensed and washed for him that so beeing dead hee might get aduantage by it This Iewish Fable may happely look vpon your Purgatory and much good may it doo you Yet farther Chrysostome relateth vpon this place that when any of the Catechized among the Marcionite Heretiques died a liuing body was laid vnder the Beer and the question proposed vnto the Party If he would be baptized for you knowe the Catechumeni were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vnbaptized The Party answered for the dead man Yes I will and so was hee baptized for him And thus they expounded Saint Paul's meaning Tertullian by dead vnderstandeth the body of man If there be no Resurrection to what end is the body baptized Epiphanius lastly and most men commonly take it for the baptizing of the Clinici as they called them Men in those times vsually deferred Baptism vntill their death and in extremis would be baptized So to be baptized for the Dead is to be baptized when men are ready to dy which they not doe but vpon hope of the Resurrection In such variety and greater than so yet saith this fellowe An euident place To come home to the assertion It is plaine and euident the Apostle speaketh not of any succour that soules departed receiued from the Suffrages of the Church which were it granted no necessity of Purgatory would ensue but of comfort that men receiued from that mayne point of our most holy faith the Resurrection of the Dead the mayne Subiect of that Chapter as euery child with vs can tell See more for wee haue seene but little hitherto 2. Tim. 1. 18. where That day is transmued into Purgatory For Saint Pauls words are The Lord grant vnto him that he may find mercy with the Lord at that day that is may bee deliuered out of Purgatory at the day of Iudgement So wheresoeuer God sheweth mercy there is Purgatory or All that finde mercy at the day of Iudgement come out of Purgatory Vnlesse this bee his meaning let him tell me what he would haue with Saint Paul here If this bee his meaning I wish him well for sure hee is in no right wits because so no man liuing can escape Purgatory by this inference For no man but findeth mercy with God before that time and then No man but needeth Gods mercy then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In that fearfull and terrible day when wee stand in need of great mercy indeed saith Chrysost who neuer dreamt of any Purgatory nor would haue sent Onesiphorus thither had hee fancied any such thing for euen according to your owne Doctrine his good deeds had not onely aboundantly merited for himselfe sufficiently satisfied for his Peccadilloes but his Indurances ouer and aboue layd somewhat vnto the Church-treasure And what hath Purgatory to do with such a man Esay 4. 4. the Prophet speaketh of the Spirit of burning and of Purging thus When the Lord shall wash the filthines of the daughter of Sion purge the blood of Ierusalem out of the midst thereof by the Spirit of iudgement and by the Spirit of burning then without all doubt Purgatory burneth apace the rather because Saint Augustine expoundeth it of Purgatory Lib. 20. de Ciuit. Dei Cap. 25 saith Bellar. You left vs to seeke Cap. 21 say others so your selues are to seeke I meane for any such thing in Saint Augustine For hee is belied in both places which touch not vpon Purgatory at all but manifestly designe the last Iudgement In the 21. he professes himself that his discourse was wholly therof à primo Saluatoris aduentu vsque ad vltimū Iudiciū de quo nunc agimus And more euidently Cap. 25. Videtur euidentius apparere in illo Iudicio quodam quorundā futuras Poenas purgatorias Purgatory paines are by S. Augustine put off and adiourned vnto the last Iudgement then to begin when yours end and this but in opinion not resolution Now Sir what aduantage haue you by Saint Augustine who speaketh opiningly of Purgatory but excludeth your Purgatory And to as much purpose is Saint Basil expounding the place of Esay 9. 18. of Purgatory you say The text is For wickednes burneth as a fire it deuoureth the briers and thornes and will kindle in the thick places of the Forrest and they shall mount vp like the lifting vp of smoke Basil in his exposition nameth purging fire I grant it but this purging fire is in life not after death in this world not in the world to come and God himselfe is this purging fire who abolisheth and consumeth iniquitie by Repentance being detected by confession as any man may see that will but looke vpon the place and the same Father vpon the 10. of Esay more plainely explicateth his owne meaning Pandit hic naturam ignis quia lustratiuus est et purgatorius Sanctificabit enim ipsum quasi in igne ardenti Quomodo autem sanctificat ignis Quia comesturus est syluam tanquam foenū Sanè ex quo Deus noster ignis consumens est consumet syluā et vitia quae à syluā siue materiâ promanant animae quae non degit in spiritu sed in carne Strange conceits that if any Father name purging fire hee must needs bee a