intercessione apud Deum obtinenda Anathema sit Si quis dixerit Ecclesia Romana ritum quo submissa voce par canonis verba consecrationis proferuntur damnandum esse aut lingua tantum vulgari Missam celebrari debere Ibid. Can. 9. aut aquam non Miscendam esse vino in Calice eo quod sit contra Christi institutionem Anathema sit In a word let any one read the Institution of that blessed Sacrament in the three Gospels and compare it to what is now done and taught among you and if he will but believe his own eyes he must needs confess that you have most wretchedly corrupted and deform'd it But against your pretended sacrificing of Christ for the sins of the living and the dead Heb 7.26 27. I 'll oppose these Scriptures Such an high Priest became us who needeth not daily as those high Priests to offer up sacrifice first for his own sins and then for the peoples for this he did once when he offered up himself Heb 9.12 By his own bloud he entred once into the holy places having obtained eternal redemption for us What need then he be sacrificed any more for sin and satisfaction as you reach At the 26 verse Once in the end of the world he appeared once to put away sins by the sacrifice of himself the whole Chapter is against Christ being sacrificed again Saint Paul saith that the New Covenant which Christ made with us in his Bloud is this Their sins and iniquities will I remember no more and then infers Now where remission of these is there is no more offering for sin And at the 14 verse it is expresly said That he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified And then what need those daily Sacrifices or Offerings for sin that are amongst you Now let your Church boast no more of her infallibility except she can first prove that those many clear and express Scriptures which speak against her new Doctrines are mistaken or else that God meant by them quite another thing than what he exprest and that men are not to believe any thing of Scripture though never so plain until the Pope hath determined how far and in what sense until that be done we will together with the primitive Concils and Fathers make the Word of God the Rule of our Faith and adhere to the three ancient Creeds and then laugh at your wilful and confident Assertions as we do at that which is call'd a Womans reason P. You may laugh as long as you will you can never scorn us so much as we do you and for all you are so stout here at home if you were in those Countries where there is an Inquisition they 'll make you talk after another rate and feel that such perverse Hereticks as you are deserve to be used as bad as the worst of Infidels and that faith is no more to be kept with you than with Tirants and publick Robbers Praesens Sancta Synodus ex quovis salvo conductu per Imperatorem Reges alios saeculi principes Concil Constant S. 19. haereticis vel de haeresi diffamatis putantes eosdem sic à suis erroribus revocare quocunque vinculo se astrixerint Concesso nullum fidei Catholicae vel jurisdictioni Ecclesiasticae praejudicium generari posse seu debere declarat Quominus dicto salvo conductu non obstante liceat judici competenti Ecclesiastico inquirere punire c. Etiamsi de salvo conductis Confisi ad locum venerint judicii alias non venturi Nec sic permittentem cum fecerit quod in ipso est ex hoc in aliquo remansisse obligatum Fides haereticis data servanda non est Becan Inst tit 46. S. 51. sicut nec tyrannis piratis caeteris publicis praedonibus And so I leave you to the tickling of your own fancy G. Nay good Master don't be gone yet and don 't be so angry I 'll rather not laugh at all than lose your company And the truth is I could much sooner weep when I think of the sad Divisions which are betwixt the hearts as well as the judgments of Christians Though I have an aversion to some of your Doctrines yet I assure you I have none for you nor any others that dissent from our Church And would to God our different Opinions had not so utterly destroyed not only Christian Charity but even Humanity such bloudy and unnatural Doctrines and Practices as you now mentioned had never been seen nor heard of And for all your suddain passion I am perswaded you have so much of humane Nature in your breast that if you consult your heart upon second thoughts you 'll find in it some abhorrence to those cruelties as have often been used against dissenting Christians by those that pretended to be better if not the best of that name P. Truly I confess that in cold bloud I should be unwilling to use such severities against any body and for my own self I would not persecute any man upon the account of Religion But yet I cannot condemn the practice of our Church in this for the Pope out of the plenitude of that power he hath over all the Christian World may well dispose of the life of an Heretick that will not be reclaim'd for he hath power to dispose for the good of Souls and the advancement of the Catholick Faith of the Kingdoms and the very Lives of all Princes if the aforesaid exigencies require it Cardinal Stapleton after having disputed against those who granted too large a power to the Bishop of Rome asserts this as the most moderate Opinion of the Doctors of the Church That in case of mortal sin especially Heresie when 't is likely to be prejudiciable to the Church the Roman Pontiff as being Supreme Pastor of it may for its preservation punish any Princes whatsoever and if it should be requisite deprive them of their Kingdoms either by means of the Parliament or Peers and Commons or in case of necessity that is if it can't be effected that way he may do it immediately by himself by his own Authority by giving his Kingdom to another Prince or to any the first Catholick Conqueror For so he saith Pope Stephen transferr'd the Empire from the Greeks to the Germans and Pope Innocent the Fourth took the Government of the Kingdom from the King of Portugal and gave it to his Brother Stap. contr 3. de primario subjecto potestatis Ecclesiasticae quaest 5. a. 2. In casu peccati mortalis maxime haeresis potissimum quando in publicum aliquod magnum Ecclesiae detrimentum vergit Romanus Pontifex tanquam supremus Ecclesiae Pastor ad ejus conservationem punire quosvis principes potest si rei necessitas exigat regno privare Romanus Pontifex in casu haeresis principem aliquem dominio privare immediata authoritate potest in casu necessitatis alioqui non nisi
though I find nothing for it in Scripture had I not found that he hath really erred and that very grosly whence I infer that therefore his Infallibility and supreme Authority are Chimeras mere devices of his own brain the which I am in no wise bound to obey being they pervert and oppose the plainest truths in the New Testament As that Christ is now in heaven by his bodily presence and not on the Altars as it is in the Creed he is ascended into heaven from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead and in Acts 3.20 Whom the heavens must contain until the restitution of all things That we are forgiven and cleansed by the death and merits of Christ not by Purgatory and Indulgences 1 Joh. 1.7 And the bloud of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sins ibid. 2.2 He is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world That the offering of himself on the Cross hath fully satisfied for sin and that his sacrifice needs not be renewed daily and be offered corporally in the Mass for the sins of the living and the dead as you teach and do Heb. 9.26 But now once in the end of the world he hath appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself c. In those things that are evidently against the Word of God we are resolv'd to follow Scripture rather than the head of your Church and we 'll rather for ever break with him than to suffer him to put out our eyes that so he may guide us at his own pleasure P. Yea those be the fruits of translating the Bible and performing Divine Service in the vulgar Tongues every one of you can find fault with the Doctrins and Constitutions of the Church and talk Scripture from morning to night we see among your selves what Disorders it hath caused If your Clergy had been wise enough to have still retein'd the Latin Tongue in all their Ministrations the people could have dislik'd and censur'd nothing 't was sufficient for them to have light enough to follow their guides more submission and obedience with less knowledge had done better Bellar de Verbo Dei l. 2. c. 15. That hath been the wisdom of our Church to keep the Scripture and the publick prayers of our Church out of the peoples reach by forbidding them to be read in any vulgar tongue Catholica Ecclesia prohibet ne in publico communi usu Ecclesiae Scripturae legantur vel canentur vulgaribus linguis ut in Concilio Tridentino SS 22. Can. 9. Sed contenti sumus tribus illis linguis quas Dominus titulo crucis suae honoravit G. Because some men stumble and fall at noon-day must the Sun be charged with a fault that proceeds from their heedlesness and would it become one to say that therefore 't is safer to grope in the dark because then people tread more warily Or must therefore mens eyes be put out because then they shall be willing to be led and to follow their guides S. Peter saith that the unstable and unlearned in his time wrested some difficult things written by Saint Paul and other Scriptures to their own destruction Yet he doth not say therefore let not the common people read them but rather dedicates his Epistle to all those that were partakers of the Christian Faith and exhorts them to grow in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ ibid. v. 18. S. Paul reckons Idolatry Heresies and Schisms among the fruits of the flesh Gal. 5.20 but doth not any where impute them to the reading of Holy Scripture and it hath been observ'd that the perversness of men of great Learning hath been the cause of Heresies and not the mistakes or ignorance of ordinary people in reading the Bible However we have a whole Chapter in the New Testament against the speaking in an unknown tongue as you do in all your Churches 1 Cor. 15.11 If I know not the meaning of the voice I shall be unto him that speaketh a Barbarian and he that speaketh shall be a Barbarian unto me that 's the relation betwixt your Priests and your people they are Barbarians one to another the whole Chapter is to that purpose and would be too long to be transcrib'd But if Scripture had been silent in this one would think that common Reason would have kept men from a practice so absurd and ridiculous that a man should present a petition and know not what he asks and be taught his duty by words he doth not understand is a strange and incredible thing which Reason alone confutes most strongly And yet for all this I do hugely commend the wisdom of your Church in this particular for that hath maintain'd the Popes Religion and Credit for some hundreds of years the understanding of Mass and Scripture hath already prov'd fatal to his authority and should once the rest of his flock be able to compare both together 't is to be fear'd he that hath rewarded many of his friends with the gift of titular Bishopricks might come to be himself a titular Bishop P. I see you value an universal Council as little as you do Bellarmin alone and have as many things to object against it I wonder how you dare in any wise oppose the authority of such an Assembly and think your Judgment is to be prefer'd to theirs G. And I wonder how you can call the Council of Trent universal when there was none in it of the Clergy of the Reformed Churches which are almost as large and populous here in the West as those of the Roman Religion But especially because none of the Christians of Aethiopia nor of those that are subject to the Patriarchs of Antioch and Constantinople whose Jurisdiction is of a far larger extent than that of the Bishop of Rome were present at it Pray did you never hear that a great Company of Arrians met once together and confirmed their Errors and cursed all those that would not embrace it and call'd themselves an Universal Council just so did that Company of Papists that met at Trent But had they been twice as many more you should not wonder how I dare oppose them but rather consider whether what I say be rational or no and whether what you call my private judgment be not rather the express words of Scripture But pray proceed and tell me what your Church thinks of Images and Saints for we are told that you worship them P. Yes Bellar. de San. beat l. 1. c. 19. and that very devoutly and to our great advantage by making religious Invocations to them whether they be men or angels Sancti sive angeli sive homines pie atque utiliter invocantur G. Now I wonder too how you dare do that for I find that when Cornelius would have worshipped S. Peter the holy Apostle took him up saying Acts 10.26 Rev. 19.10 that he himself was a
is seven Sacraments instituted by Christ as they did in the Canons of their seventh Session for one might look long enough before he could find any such thing in the New Testament and they were not pleased to say when nor where two or three of them were instituted P. Can't you take it upon their credit and don 't you think that as they had more so they had better eyes than you Sure you put a great deal of confidence in your capacity and in your senses That 's the reason I believe that you will not be perswaded that in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper the substance of Bread and Wine is really changed into the very substance of the Body and Bloud of Christ so that not only under either kind of the Elements but also under each the least crum or drop of them Christ is wholly and substantially contained his Body and Bloud with his Soul and Divine Nature This the same Fathers have taught us and it shall not be the weakness of your eyes shall save you from the Anathema they have pronounc'd against all those that will not believe it Concil Trid. c. 4. S. 13. Sacra Synodus declarat per consecrationem panis vini conversionem fieri totius substantiae panis in substantiam corporis Domini totius substantiae vini in substantiam sanguinis ejus S. 13. Can. 3. Et alibi Si quis negaverit in vencrabili sacramento sub unaquaque specie sub singulis cujuscunque speciei partibus separatione facta totum Christum contineri Anathema sit Si quis negaverit in Sacramento contineri vere S. 13. Can 1. realiter substantialiter corpus sanguinem una cum anima divinitate Domini ac proinde totum Christum Anathema sit G. Should they put out my very eyes with their fulminations I cannot believe the Gloss as they have made upon the Text of the Institution of that Sacrament I believe what Christ said That the Bread and Wine are his Body and Bloud after what manner he best knows I am sure his words are true and real though mysterious beyond the reach of our reason A little modesty had better becom'd your holy Fathers than thus peremptorily to define things which they themselves confess to be abstruse and by their Definitions heap absurdities one upon another make a thin Wafer and every crum of it distinctly to become a whole and entire Body so that you receive at a time as many Bodies of Christ as there is little parcels in the Bread you take And what becomes of all those entire Bodies and Souls in your Stomachs who knows And how Christ came by such an infinite multitude of Bodies when we read but of one that was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the holy Virgin and now sits at the right hand of God as we say in our Creed And what will become of them all whether they shall be reduc'd to nothing or glorified also after they have been a certain time in the Stomachs of the Receivers These and many more Questions some whereof very impious have been and are still disputed amongst your School-Divines Why was a Mystery which should be the object of our faith and reverence made a perplexed Riddle by making the object of our sense gross and material Eph. 3.17 The Scripture saith That Christ dwells in our hearts by faith not by a corporal presence which requires no faith as to that manner of presence Mat. 26.11 Christ saith The poor ye have always with you but me ye have not alway And St. Col. 3.1 Paul Seek ye the things which are above where Christ sitteth at the right hand of God It is written Heb. 2.17 That in all things he was made like unto his Brethren therefore his Body is but in one place at once and where it is is the object of sense as ours be and as we read his was after his Resurrection when he told his Disciples Handle me and see Luk. 24.39 for a Spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have And the Angels said when he went up into Heaven Act. 1.11 This same Jesus which is taken up from you into Heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into Heaven These Scriptures are plain and easie there is no mystery in them as there is in the words of the Institution of the Sacrament therefore he that believes both according as they are reveal'd doth certainly better than he that expounds a mysterious Text so as thereby to contradict many clear and plain ones P. But then how could Christ be really sacrificed in the Sacrament if his Body and Bloud was not there for we firmly believe that in the Mass the very same Christ who once yielded himself a bloudy sacrifice upon the Cross is bodily sacrificed without bloud-shedding and therein according to the Apostolical Tradition is truly and really offered a sacrifice not only for the sins pains satisfactions and other necessities of the faithful alive but also for those that are dead in the Lord and are not yet throughly purged Conc. Trident. S. 22. Cap. 2. Quoniam in divino illo sacrificio quod in Missa peragitur idem ille Christus continetur incruenter immolatur qui in ara crucis semel seipsum cruente obtulit docet sancta Synodus sacrificium istud vere propitiatorium esse quare non solum pro fidelium virorum peccatis poenis satisfactionibus aliis necessitatibus sed pro defunctis in Christo nondum ad plenum purgatis rite juxta Apostolorum traditionem offertur G. We don't read when Christ instituted the Sacrament that he offered a bodily Sacrifice for the sins of the living and the dead or instituted such an one though we believe that blessed Sacrament really to be a commemorative Sacrifice of that which Christ offered upon the Cross and which was typified as now it is remembred by real Sacrifices we don't read of any adoration given by the Apostles to the Sacrament but you teach that it must be worshipped with that highest kind of worship which is proper to God alone Latriae cultu Conc. Trident. S. 13. Cap. 5. We find the same example and command for the receiving the Wine as the Bread but you have wholly taken away the sacred Wine from all but the Ministers and withal pronounc'd a curse to those that should dare to say that ye have not well done Conc. Trident. S. 21. Can. 2. as also to those that should find fault with your not speaking in a vulgar Tongue or with your speaking very low part of the Canon and the words of Consecration or with your mixing Water with the Wine Concil Trident. S. 22. Can. 5. or with your celebrating Masses in honour of the Saints and to obtain their intercession Si imposturam esse Missas celebrare in honorem sanctorum pro illorum
Liberty and Reformation But you may satisfie your self fully in their Books As for our Religion It was where it had been above a thousand years in the Holy Scripture And suppose what is utterly false that soon after its being written all Christian Churches had been so corrupted as to own fifteen hundred years together those Errors which now are amongst you yet still the Scripture had been the same as much to be obeyed and followed as if it had always been so 2 King 22. When Josiah had found the Book of the Law he did not fling it by because it had been hid and neglected during the reign of Manasseh and Amon his Fathers but he caused it to be read before all the people Ibid. 23. that they might observe what was conteined in it So now we have the Holy Scriptures read and preached to us we must not reject them to follow the Customs of some of our Fore-Fathers in whose time they were hid and disregarded for they are as much the Rule of Faith as if they had never been disown'd But I say farther that our Religion was in those Churches in the East and South which never own'd Popery and even amongst you our Religion was professed you believed all along those three Creeds which you and we do still retein which contein the Articles of our Faith but not the new additions which are particular to Rome The Popes universal Supremacy and his Infallibility Transubstantiation Worshipping of Images Purgatory Indulgences c. These are neither in Scripture nor in the first Councils nor in the Writings of the Antient Fathers not so much as in your Creeds an evident mark of their novelty but in the late Councils and Constitutions of the Popes We confess indeed that there is an universal Church out of which there is no salvation according to that known saying of S. Cyprian Deum non potest c. He can be none of Gods children who is not a son of the Church But that Church is the Christian not the Roman Church and to know which is the Christian Church or which is the purest of Christian Churches for they are all Christian in some measure that own Christ we must not consult humane Histories for they cannot inform us of that and if they could we must not build our faith upon mens report De Sac a. l. 2. c. 21. Bellarmin saith of humane Histories Faciunt tantum humanam fidem cui falsam subesse potest that they only beget a human saith which may be erroneous Wherefore in the Controversie betwixt us which is the purest Church we must not search old Records and Chronicles to see which was the oldest the most visible or the most large and flourishing Church that is not the Question and if it were still human Histories cannot be the ground of a Christian Faith but we must examin which agrees best with Holy Scripture which we all acknowledge to be the Word of God for no doubt the true Church wherein Salvation may be had is that which holds that Doctrin which God himself hath reveled to Mankind whatever her condition may have been in times past P. There may be something considerable in what you say but you Hereties have strange cunnings and subtilties to justifie your Opinions and yet still for all you have said you are no better than Rebels against your spiritual Sovereign you are Schismatics undutiful Children that have forsaken your Mother the Church The true and only Church wherein Salvation is to be obtein'd guided and governed by the Vicar of Christ upon earth our holy Father the Pope Vna est tantum Ecclesia sub regimine unius Christi in terris Vicarii Romani Pontific is Bellar. de Eccl. l 3. c. 2. But pray do not make such a tedious Discourse as you have just now G. Good Sir sometimes short Questions cannot be answered in few words I could propose one to you much like that as you put to me which I believe would take a great deal of your time to answer that is Where your particular Religion your sacrificing of the real and corporal body and bloud of Christ for the sins of the living and the dead your Worshipping Images and Saints and making them your Intercessors your Purgatory Indulgences c. Where was all that in the time of Christ and his Apostles Whereabout can it be found in Scripture or in the antient Creeds or in the four first General Councils or in the three or four first Centuries But I will not put you to so long and impossible a Task As for our forsaking the Communion of the Church of Rome we were absolutely bound and in a manner forc'd to do it because of the many errors which had crept and been brought into it by the Ignorance Pride Avarice and Ambition of the late Popes of Rome and their Partizans and which were confirm'd by your Church and defended with that violence that it was death to any man to speak in the least against them Now you know 't is a Rule agreed on of all sides that he is not guilty of Schism that separates but he that gives a just cause of Separation wherfore I retort the charge upon you of being Schismatics except you can prove by the Word of God those Doctrins of yours we have rejected to be Divine and Orthodox for we have left your Church upon this account that you had perverted the truth of God and added many false opinions to it which ye impos'd upon the people as if they had been Articles of Faith And we find it in Scripture Ro. 16.17 Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the Doctrin which ye have learned and avoid them 't is not said except it be the Church of Rome And in another place Gal. 1.8 Though we or an angel from heaven preach unto you beyond or over and above in the Grecc 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the vulgar praeterquam quod what we have preached let him be accursed the Pope himself you see is not excepted Again we have left the Communion of your Church because it was Schismatic itself in that it had forsaken the Doctrin taught and believed in the Primitive Church We have come out of Rome to return into the more antient and universal Church We have left the Pope to follow Christ and his Apostles and we have forsaken you no farther than you had forsaken the truth The antient Creeds the first Councils many good and Fundamental Doctrins we hold together in these we hold Communion with you We reject your Communion only in those new Doctrins which ye have superadded to the antient and divine Faith of Christians And so likewise we rebel not against the Pope only we set God above him I 'll still acknowledge him to be a Bishop and the Patriarch of the West and perhaps I had been civil enough never to have disputed his Infallibility and spiritual Sovereignty
Torments Certainly St. John had been an Heretick too but that Purgatory was not found out in his time I have a desire to depart Phil. 1.23 and to be with Christ 2 Cor. 5.8 We are confident and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. And our blessed Saviour tells the penitent Malefactor Luk. 23.43 This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise Though it hath been and is still questioned whether the Souls of the Righteous are admitted into the same Mansions of Glory as they shall be after the Resurrection yet that there is Rest and Bliss in their Receptacles is certainly taught by these Scriptures But there is no mention made of Purgatory in the whole Bible 1 Joh. 1.7 Ibid. v. 9. rather we are told That the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin That If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness and that Heb. 1.3 Christ by himself hath purged our sins by himself not by the flames of Purgatory I can't but commend the modesty of your Clergy that they have not inserted their new-devised Doctrines in the holy Scripture but rather hid the Scripture from the People but I do hugely suspect their honesty to perswade men to relie upon such imaginary things as Indulgences and Purgatory when the best argument to prove that they can in any wise benefit the People is that they bring great profit to the Church P. Yes I know you would fain bring contempt upon our Clergy I suppose you envy their mighty Power in that they can do more than all Men and Angels besides They have the Keys of Heaven and Hell Bel. de poenit l. 3. c. 2. except they absolve a man though he be never so penitent yet he must be damn'd Si non essent Sacerdotes judices nec vere peccata remitterent nemo periret ex eo solum quâ—d Sacerdotem reconciliantem habere non posset sed c. Moreover they have the power to destroy all the seven Sacraments Without their intention goes along with their ministration the Sacraments are ineffectual and insignificant and they are accursed that don't believe it Bell. de Sacram. L. 1. c. 27. Con. Trident S. 7. Can. 11. Sententia Catholicorum est requiri intentionem faciendi quod facit Ecclesia ut expresse sacra Synodus Tridentina His verbis Si quis dixerit in Ministris dum Sacramenta conficiunt conferunt non requiri intentionem faltem faciendi quod facit Ecclesia Anathema sit G. Indeed if your tale be true your Priests have a most unlimited Power and except they use it aright the poor people are like to smart for it 'T is a thing must make them very dear and precious to the Laity that except they repent a penitent sinner he must go to Hell notwithstanding his repenting and begging for mercy But sure you forget one thing in their commendation that they are as infallible as the Pope nay more that they do as well as God know the hearts of men for 't would be a very odd thing if they should absolve a wicked Hypocrite and send him to Heaven or send a true Penitent to Hell by refusing to absolve him What a dreadful thing must a Priest be amongst you and how careful must your people be to please them when by their only thoughts they can damn them as fast as they will If his intention be wanting when he baptizeth a Child the poor Creature will live and die a Heathen If when he marries he intends it not Master Bridegroom in stead of a Wife hath got none but a Concubine In the Sacrament of the Lords Supper he may chance to make the people worship nothing but a Wafer if he doth not intentionally consecrate And who knows but that intention might be wanting in the Ordination of a Priest of the Pope himself or of some of their Predecessors and then how great are the mischiefs that follow thereupon Are not those very pious Doctrines and don 't they well deserve the Councils curse that will not believe them Your Clergy-mens Power is indeed much to be admired that they can get credit to such stuff as this and impose so grosly upon the people P. No wonder if you are injurious to our Ministers when you are so to the Sacraments themselves making them to be but signs to put us in mind of what they signifie We differ as much from you in this as in the precedent Article for we are taught by the holy Council That Sacraments confer Grace to the Receivers Cone Trident. S. 7. Can. 8. Bel. de effectu Sacram. l. 2. c. 1. opere operato by their own immediate vertue and efficacy As the fire burns by its self saith Bellarmine not by the dryness of the wood so the Sacraments give Grace by their own selves without any disposition or qualification be required of the Receiver and not as Hereticks say by exciting faith c. Catholici probant Sacramentorum efficaciam non pendere ab ulla qualitate suscipientis Nam ut ignis urit Et c. 3. c. Et ibid. Titulus Capitis tertii quod Sacramenta ex opere operato conferant gratiam Non ut concio excitando fidem ut dicunt haeretici G. By Mr. Bellarmine's good leave we derogate nothing from the Ordination or the Ministrations of Clergy-men much less from the two Sacraments which Christ instituted they all really give and exhibit what they signifie by them God conveys his Grace really and effectually at all times and to all Receivers non ponentibus obicem that do not hinder their efficacy by their indisposition and perverseness But 't is very strange that you make spiritual Graces to be inherent in things material as if they were their natural properties and make those Elements to work upon our souls by themselves more powerfully than that very matter that is personally united to them And 't is likely to prove a great hindrance to Devotion and Holiness to tell the people that whatsoever their preparations or the condition of their Souls be they shall certainly receive the Grace offered in the Sacraments so that if a dying wicked man can but make the Priest to believe that he hath attrition or contrition enough to be in a capacity of having the Sacrament administred to him then the Absolution and Extream Unction will conjure him up to Heaven by their abstruse and powerful vertue And then who would be at the trouble of living soberly righteously and godly as the Gospel requires when one may be saved without it I might bring Sacriptures against this opinion but it confutes it self and I believe the Owners of it will rather mis-represent than defend it But sure the Fathers of Trent were got in an ill mood when they did curse those that would not believe that under the Gospel there
lay the greatest stress of your future well-being You cannot but see by what I have objected out of Gods Word against many of your Doctrines and by what many learned men have written out of the best Records of Antiquity if you durst read them that those things in debate betwixt us are at the best but doubtful therefore 't will be more sure to relie chiefly on what is believ'd of both parties our common Symbol or Christian Creed You use to say that yours is the safest Church because we believe as well as you that men may be sav'd in it And now I use the same reason and say that 't is better to believe as we do because you also acknowledge what we believe to be sound and Orthodox That the Scripture is the Word of God and therefore infallible That God is the only Object of our Religious Adoration That Jesus Christ is in Heaven and there to be worshipped That his Blood doth cleanse us from all sin That he intercedes for us and That he will render to every man according to his works the Scripture is plain in all this and you believe it as well as we therefore 't is much more certain and to be relied on than the Popes Infallibility the worshipping Images with the worship of Douleia as you speak the belief of Transubstantiation the Doctrine of Purgatory the relying on the Merits Satisfactions and Intercessions of the Saints and the Pardons and Indulgences of the Church-treasure Bell. de Justif l. 5. c. 7. Propter incertitudinem propriae justitiae periculum inanis Gloriae tutissimum est fiduciam totam in sola dei misericordia benignitate reponere Because of the uncertainty of our own righteousness and the danger of self-conceitedness it is safest of all to put our whole trust in the mercy of God The like might be said of all other points in question But why could not the learned Cardinal say so before and spare himself the great labours he took about Purgatory Indulgences and the Merits and Satisfactions of our selves and others by saying plainly Tutissimum est 't is safest of all to relie upon Gods mercy Certainly in a thing of that moment we should go the surest way to work But pray learn that Lesson of that great Champion of your Church and mind what I have said Now I 'll tell you if you stay a while longer I expect Master V. a Presbyterian Minister one that will tell you stoutly of the Beast and the Whore of Babylon and many other things that will please you as well I should be very glad to hear you discourse together and perhaps 't will not be altogether unpleasant to you P. Ho Master V. I know him of old I would go many a mile to see him and to talk with him I have of late lookt over many of their Presbyterian Books as they printed in the time of the late War I 'll warrant you I 'll make brave sport with him if you please but to stand Spectator or Auditor for a while if you can be patient enough to hear us I dare promise you we 'll find discourse enough to entertain your attention G. I will The Preface THe Doctrines and Constitutions of the Church of England which are rejected and opposed by the Presbyterians have been so fully asserted against their Objections and Innovations by the labours of several learned men that it had been actum agere to thrust my Sickle into other mens Harvest to say any thing in defence of them I have therefore made it my only business to discover their profest Religion as it hath been solemnly taught by the Deeds and Writings of their greatest Divines because I observe that they also draw people after them chiefly by concealing or misrepresenting of it I will not tell thee before hand that they own the worst of Popish Errours thou shalt judge of it when thou hast made an end of reading this Book But for fear thou shouldst think that thou knowest well enough already what their Doctrines are I will assure thee that they disguise them and cunningly hide their real and worst Opinions under fair and specious pretences I know I shall be told that I rake into the dust of old stories and open the grave of Oblivion c. and be called a Lyar and a Calumniator and what else they please Veritas odium parit But I say that those Authors I have cited have never recanted their Errours nor the Divines of that party ever censured or disowned them or their Writings but they still persist to impose upon the people and draw them away from the Church by the same arts and pretences as they did at first And I protest that though I might I have not mentioned the failings of any one man whom I knew to have repented of them by returning to his duty neither have I falsified any of my Quotations in the least nor made such severe reflections upon them as one might but said just as much as I thought would suffice to make them hang together and let the Reader see the cheat And as for their ill speaking of me I regard it not for let it be never so bad I am sure they have said worse of better men than either I am or pretend to be If it be objected That I have brought in a silly Presbyterian who speaks but two or three words at a time and says nothing in his own defence I desire it may be considered that the Papist having the Conclusion to prove was therefore to be longest in his Discourses and that Replies and a full debate of the points in question had been useless and inconsistent with my intended brevity But the truth is I knew not what my Veterator could have answered to those proofs that were brought against him I desire the Reader to observe whether they do admit of any pleas or evasions And now before I suffer thee to hear the Discourse of my Colloquutors let me require these two things of thee First That whatsoever Religion thou art resolved to profess thou wouldst take heed that by deluding arts and goodly pretences thou beest not made to follow those Doctrines and practices which are hereafter mentioned and the which if thou art a Christian and a Protestant thou canst not but condemn as being erroneous and criminal in the highest degree And secondly That thou would not draw poison out of my Antidote be uncharitable to those that are because I have made thee see their errours such foul Doctrines as thou shalt find in this Book are never good but at second hand and they are mentioned by me with designs of charity that thou mightst avoid them not to make thee hate or despise the Authors or Abettors of them Remember that other mens faults shall not excuse thine Wherefore let him that thinketh he stands take heed lest he fall 1 Cor. 10.12 In stead of insulting over them that are misguided or fallen do
and the Renegado English have not these wrested our lives c. Nay the Magistrates themselves were not exempt from the sting of your poisonous tongues Mr. Case told the Court-Martial Th. Case 1644. p. â— That for many years Robbery Violence Murther and Treason had sate on the Bench and not stood at the Bar c. And your tongues were so inur'd to slander that you could not so much as spare the first Christian Emperours and Bishops who had been the great Propagators of Christian Religion T. Palmer 1644. p. 19. The wicked saith Mr. Palmer and the Popes and Roman Emperours have agreed all along to persecute Gods Saints that hath gone on for above 600 years they have been getting upon the Saints almost all this while and therefore now 't is no more but just with God to bring their time of losing c. Thus you see the conformity between you and us holds still in this particular of slandering our enemies or rather to give you your full due you have out-done all Precedents by far if not Diabolos himself the Father of Lyes Pr. I know not whether your Quotations be true but this I am sure of that there is no men under the Sun so humble as the Presbyterians none acknowledge themselves so vile before God and make such soul-humbling confessions of sin whereas you magnifie your selves as the only people of God you think there is no goodness to be found but only amongst you therefore you exclude all that are not of your Church out of Heaven and so puft up you are with pride that you dare talk of your merits as though you were more than perfect Pa. Of Merits and Perfection another time if you please for the present let us inquire whether you do not value your selves as highly as we do and also shut out of Heaven those that are not of your holy Sect. As for your long confessions of sins I confess that I have sometimes admired how they could be consistent with the good opinion you have of your selves At first I thought that you took a pride in professing much humility and possibly I was not much out for you know you call him the Son of Pride who calls himself Servus Servorum But I remember that heretofore you kept days of humiliation for the sins of others Mr. Coleman in a Sermon to the Parliament after he had told them how that sins may be punished long after their commission T. Coleman p. 14. adds This particular was taken to heart when by an Ordinance you call'd upon the Kingdom to be humbled for the Bloud shed in the Marian persecution if such an Ordinance was reprinted with some additions concerning mixtures in Gods service and violence against Gods servants under the Prelatical Tyranny it might possibly do much good whereby it may seem probable that in your long confessions you mean other mens sins and not your own However it appears by what I have said already that you think your selves the best of men or to speak more properly the holy ones the elect and chosen people you engross to your selves the names of precious Saints and Godly others go under the notion of vile Looking-Glass for Malignants p. 2. ungodly reprobates It grieves the Saints saith Mr. Vicars to see those miserable Malignants to be so godless and graceless so bitingly and bitterly to flout and affront the Lord Christ himself in his holy Members and his most glorious Cause And in his Jehovah-Jireb speaking of Bastwick Burton c. brought out of prison p. 13. he saith Did not the Lord shew himself most strangely in the Mount for the redemption of all these his beloved Isaacs and cause his wrath to lay hold on those Romish Rams who were intangled in the bushes of their Bishoply abuses to Gods children and so by his admirable Providence to make them a prey to his just indignation in stead of his innocent his tenderly affected Isaacs his beloved Lambs I believe the Jews never put so many affronts and indignities upon the accursed posterity of Cham as you did upon those that were not enrol'd among your Saints Jer. Bur. 1643. p. 20. The Lord hath raised up saith Mr. Burroughs the worst the vilest upon the face of the earth and they have possest the houses of many of his Saints the dearly beloved of Gods Soul Is not this to the purpose Nay it seems the blessed Apostles and first Christians were inferiour in Saintship to your most incomparable selves saith Mr. Goodwin to the Parliament Look upon this Isle wherein we live Th. Good 1645. p 51. as it is the richest Ship that hath the most of the precious Jewels of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in it Let me use the same Expression as I did in publick twenty years agone That if we stood at Gods elbow when he bounded out the Nations and seasons that men should live in we should not have known unless in Christs in what Age or in what place we should have chosen to have lived in in respect of the enjoyments of the Gospel and the Communion of Saints more than in this Kingdom wherein we live Now my loving Friend don't you think that we are also well agreed in this in esteeming our selves highly and condemning others that ar not of our side as impious reprobates fit only for Hell All the difference lies in this that we think well of our selves in that we obey our Church and hold Communion with her and you contrariwise make your excellency to consist in forsaking your Church and endeavouring to destroy it Pr. You shall repent by and by of the great pains you take for nothing mean while I 'll give you leave to talk of what Master such an one and such an one saith and pray can you find by those your Authors you have so ready at your fingers end that we have merits of congruity and merits of condignity and that we can give Pardons and Indulgences if so be we can get money for them Don't we teach that all our righteousness is as a defiled Rag and that our best works are rather sinful than meritorious Pa. It may be so but for all that I can tell you of one thing that is hugely meritorious among you and that is the advancing of the Cause the time was when you exhorted the people to spend all upon so good a work S. Marshal 1644. p. 41. Lay out your strength and hearts and affections for the Lord go on with all your might with all your estates with all your treasure whatever you have let God have it all in his Cause if he need it And pag. 43. Who knows how far the Zeal of any one man may prevail therefore go on in it to the utmost let Offices go let Wife and Children go let Estates go be wholly for the Lord and say What may I do wherein may I be imployed and laid out what is there in my