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A52018 Roman Catholicks uncertain whether there be any true priests or sacraments in the church of Rome evinced by an argument urg'd and maintain'd (upon their own principles) against Mr. Edward Goodall of Prescot in Lancashire / by Thomas Marsden ... Marsden, Thomas. 1688 (1688) Wing M725; ESTC R726 93,249 146

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a Visible Sign which is the Genus of a Sacrament This Point being fixt I come to ask What if there happen to be no true Consecration when the Exterior Sacramental Action is done which is a thing you all grant may happen § 10. Why the same Adoration is paid still upon a presumption of true Consecration If I ask again What is adored in that case It must be answered a Creature viz. the Bread is adored instead of God. And then this is in one sense or another Idolatry It follows also upon the same ground That when men are Uncertain whether there be true Consecration they are also uncertain whether they commit not Idolatry in such their Adorations Now I conclude that Roman Catholicks are at no time certain that they commit not Idolatry in Worshipping the Host I add God is very jealous of his Honour and Men should be tender of it too and therefore I would think they should have either simple Evidence or Revelation for the Divinity of the Object before they pay to it that greatest Tribute of Adoration But Roman Catholicks light far short of that Certainty of the matter and yet venture to adore hit or miss § 11. For the Second The Eucharist according to you is a proper Sacrifice That is the Body and Blood of Christ are by the Priest truly and properly offered to God in the Mass under the visible Species of Bread and Wine And this is a Propitiatory Sacrifice God being pleased with this Oblation grants to those for whom it is Offered Grace Repentance Remission of many and grievous Sins and Supplies for their several Necessities Nor doth this profit Men alive onely but after Death Thus your Church teaches I cannot but acknowledge that this Doctrine is believed among you for I find that most Men of Estates in your Communion do at their Death leave good round Sums of Mony to certain Priests who in consideration of it are to shorten their Benefactors stay in the acute pains of Purgatory by saying of Masses or Offering this Sacrifice in their behalf And if this Doctrine be true the Service done them is worth their Mony which cannot be better employed otherwise § 12. But if there be no Consecration made by those respective Priests who promise to help them by that Means there will be a great disappointment somewhere But I shall say no more of that However this I may say having laid down a Warrant for it that neither Priests nor People are certain that there will be a return of Masses for the Mony as not knowing whether they be true Priests and so intend how they will capable of turning the Bread and Wine into the Body and Blood of Christ which are the supposed Matter of that Sacrifice In this condition are all Roman Catholicks Thus Sir supposing for Argument-sake your Doctrin of Transubstantiation to be true though I profess it was never in my power to believe it the sundry things I have here alledged do nevertheless hold good against you § 13. 4. No Roman Catholick is sure that he ever partakes of your other Sacraments not yet particularly mentioned by me as Confirmation and extreme Unction as not knowing whether the Ministers of them could effectually and did actually Intend in the Administration of them Without which as I have often shewed there is no Sacrament Being almost weary of enlarging on particulars I have put these together Number and describe all the great Effects you can attribute to them and in any thing of this kind I will grant your Supposition for argument-sake as I have all along in these Papers and after you have done this you will find that no Roman Catholick is fure he shares in any one of them for the Reasons often alledged before Bishops Priests and all other Members of your Communion are wrapt up in an inextricable Uncertainty § 14. All I can honestly to the best of my Knowledge grant you according to your Principles laid down is this That the Ministers of Baptism know that those they have Baptized are partakers of that Sacrament I mean it only of Infants who could not put in a bar against the Efficacy of it But yet neither the said Ministers nor any other of your Body knows that himself was Baptized as not Knowing how he intended who Baptized him So that what I inferred stands firm viz. that not one of you knows that he doth or hath received any one of your Sacraments § 15. I advertise This is it which makes the difference in this respect between the Ministers of Baptism and those of your other Sacraments treated of before Those need no special character to qualifie them for that work Any man or woman whether Jew Heathen or Turk may Baptize with Effect provided they Intend to do what the Church doth according to your doctrin Whereas the Ministers of the other Sacraments Matrimony excepted must have special power and authority from Christ to Administer or else they Act in vain And though Matrimony depend not to speak your language on the Priestly character the parties Marrying being the proper Ministers of that Sacrament yet I cannot grant them the same Certitude with the Ministers of Baptism because Two must there Intend alike or nothing is done and neither of them can be sure judges save of their own respective Intention That they make a civil Contract to lead an individual life plainly appears when he saith I take thee for my Wife and she I take thee for my Husband But whether both parties also Intend to make those Words signifie the sacred Conjunction of Christ with his Church in a general or special Sense in a more distinct or confused and thereby to obtain Grace cannot appear to either party The man can be sure but for himself nor can the woman but for her self § 16. Here is to be noted when I make the Contracting parties Ministers of Matrimony I follow only the greater part of your Authors Where you vary I cannot represent you as agreed But for those that make a Priest the Minister of it they are not a whit the nearer Certainty because they know not his Intention Before I move forward I shall re-mind the Reader that the Inferences hitherto drawn speak forth misery to Roman Catholicks on these two grounds put together 1. There is no Sacramental Grace conveyed where there are no true Sacraments The Terms are essentially Relative 2. There is an equal Uncertainty of the Sacraments and of the fruits of them Now I say each Roman Catholick for ought he can know wants the Sacraments and by consequence their Effects and if he have them he yet wants the comfort of Knowing it Which makes the Roman Church in a sad condition Sir When you have considered what hath been already said I would commend a few Inferences more to the exercise of your thoughts § 17. 1. If none of you can know that any particular man in your Church is a