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A26776 An answer to (vindicate the cause of the nick-named Quakers of such scandalls and untruths as is falsly cast upon them in a lying pamphlet, otherwise called) A discourse concerning the Quakers set out by T.L., or, as I understand the signification of the letters, Tho.? Ledger / by Geo. Baiteman. Baiteman, George. 1653 (1653) Wing B1094; ESTC R4254 26,089 36

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ditches It would be too tedious and draw out too long a Volume to answer that Author in every perticular of his blind Discourse therefore I will passe by many things the which if time would have permitted I would have answered in order but what I have said already though in briefe will satisfie the wise and for the foolish there is too much said already for beate him in a morter and his folly will not depart from him But before I conclude I cannot chuse but take notice of somewhat more he sayes concerning these People called Quakers where he telling of comming to these People in the power and evidence of Gods Word and tels them of admiring Christ holy walking with God subjection to Ordinances Baptisme Kirkefellowship c. and they will tell you or as he saith that uncleane spirit in them will cry out and witnesse against you that you be but yet in the spirit of the world and under the power of carnall reason c. It s true they will do so to some people and wise men cannot but admire to see such a spirit of discerning in many of these people for an hypocrite can hardly beguile them though he may come with never so faire pretences to try them and let an hyhocrite arme himselfe as strongly with the Scripture and his worship of God in Ordinances as possibly he can and that light or eternall word in them will finde them out and discover these to the very bottome And I know for a truth that no hypocrite is able to stand before them and I beleeve an hypocrite that once hath had discourse with them dare not appeare before them the second time and indeed they may the easilier discerne an hypocrite when they themselves are delivered from that great evill the which no doubt but many of them had in them while they were in their pretended close walking with God and in their admirings of a Christ without them and hide-bound under a faire seeming Forme and the truth is while men live in such a condition they are not able to see how the Harlot is decked in them And this Author seemeth to take it for a strange and delusive saying That the people should say that they pray alwayes and that they have the Baptisme of Fire and that they eate the Flesh and Blood of Christ continually c. Indeed I doe not marvaile at the Author for thinking so for I beleeve he little knoweth or is acquainted with the mystery of these things for I doubt he is too busie about these things without him so that he is but little acquainted with the mystery of these things within him But at one thing I marvaile in the Author that he worshipping and idolizing the Scripture so much and yet should be unacquainted with what is written in it or otherwise why is it that the Scripture that he maketh no lesse then God should not reueale the truth of these sayings to him for if he doe but remember the Scripture it commands us to Pray alwayes but no command in it for set times and set Formes of Prayer And for the Baptisme with Fire it was the Promise of Christ and was fore-told by John Baptist Mat. 3. 11. And for eating and drinking the Body and Blood of Christ continually that soule that doth not so is in the captivity of death and hath no life in it and there is no abiding or living in the word of God or Christ but by eating his Flesh and drinking his Blood after that manner for he that eateth his Flesh and drinketh his Blood in this manner abideth in Christ and Christ in him John 6. 56. It is not the outward act of Baptisme or the Bread and Wine eating and drinking that makes a Christian or bringeth the soule to live in Christ and Christ in it no no these are typpicall things under this dispensation in which we live and they hold it out in the mystery the dying with Christ and the living with Christ For as in the time of the Law there was severall Ceremonies which poynted at the appearing of Christ in the Flesh so when he was in the Flesh he left types of another nature and these pointed at Christs appearing in spirit and as the types under the Law ended when Christ appeared in the Flesh so the types under the Gospel end when Christ appeareth in the spirit But none will beleeve the great Mystery herein but such as have found the same truely fulfilled in them and yet those who have attained this Mystery and speaketh thereof to the world or to the out side religious shall be accounted no lesse then Blasphemers because this crosseth their humane wisedome by which they understand God and his way and many of those people is able to make good the truth of this Mystery in them and witnesse the same by Scripture to yea and some of them will witnesse the same by signes and wonders to if they be put to it And yet this Author doth falsly accuse these people saying That they can give no Scripture account for what they hold out and doth falsly say That they deny Scripture when no people in the world doth answer the Scripture in its requiring more then they Other false accusations I omit because time will not give way to answer them for as he saith The mary absurd ridiculous practises of these Fantastickes as he calls them would be too much to relate so I say to answer all his false accusations would be too tedious But as he goes on in his discourse he lighteth on a great hole in their Coate as he thinketh viz. That they will not put off their Hats to any no not to a Magistrate and where doth this Author finde in Scripture any command for so doing but if he minde Scripture well he shall finde something to the contrary and that was a command of our Saviours who bad his Disciples That they should salute no man by the way Luke 10. 4. and for a Magistrate or other men in Authority what are they more then other men for if they would but well consider the originall root of Authority they shall finde that they have no just cause to look for more respect then other men for if sin had not bin brought out in the world one man had not ruled over another And the Scripture saith the Devill brought sinne into the world and sinne brought out Lawes and Lawes brought out Authority but as for Magistrates and men in Authority that are good men these looke but for little honour of men though there be an honour that is due to such but that honour consisteth not in putting off Hats to them for if it had the Scripture would have commanded such honour in some place of it Likewise that Author findeth other great defects amongst these people because they will not call men Rabbies and Sirs and because they speake and write men Thou and Thee I would know of the
by mans own industry which seemingly may be of God the light which is in Reason though never so much augmented by mans industry in Reading Hearing Studying or examination cannot finde out the darkenesse of it selfe yet man in that light may walke very zealously and yet therein be the greatest enemy that God hath in the world and doe more mischiefe against Christ and the Truth then those who have no illumination at all neither act any thing in obedience to such light Witnesse the Apostle Paul who from the obedience to such light Persecuted the Saints And many of the Scribes and Pharisees who upon the same account put Christ to death Yea from the time that God hath been pleased to come neer the sonns of men by the 〈◊〉 of his Sonne in Flesh hath this ignorant zeale manifested it selfe and the Prophesie of Christ hath been in fulfilling till now and as yet is not out of date nor shall be so long as men is hide-bound under Formes which is the creatures owne actings nor so long as men is heart bound to any created thing whatsoever so long as these have residence in men the men who is inveigled in them shall alwayes be enemies of the Truth when or wheresoever the same becommeth truely to be manifest and yet none shall be greater pretenders of Truth no● greater contenders for Truth then those who be the greatest opposites thereof And he that was the Truth it selfe beareth witnesse hereof in his Prophesie where he saith The time shall come that those that Kill you shall thinke they doe God service John 6. 2. But some may say at this day there is no Persecuting of men for their judgement in matter of Worship seeing that Liberty of Conscience is countenanced by the present Authority To which I say there is a Persecution and Killing in a two-fold manner The one being acted by the Ignorant zeale of Papists Prelacians and Presbyterians and that Persecution was acted upon the bodies and states of men who would not Worship God in their way but that I confesse is much abated But the second Persecution or Killing is yet untaken away but is in as full force and vigour as ever and that is the Persecution of the Tongue and Hand both being set on worke by the ignorant zeale of the hellish fire that is in the heart from which burning flame the Tongue is made to utter scandelizings and calumnious speeches against such persons as God doth marvailously make his truth to appeare in their soules because such soules is not made partakers of the truth under their good thinking rules and faire seeming Formes and from the zeale of that fire their hands is set on worke to write ridiculous Pamphlets in villifying the names and actions and intentions and manifestations of such persons as have had a clearer sight of the truth and fuller possession of the same yea and live more in the power thereof then any person who is so glewed and hinde-bound to any Forme though never so seeming holy in the same And I wish that the Author of that Pamphlet called the Discourse concerning the Quakers be not one of these good thinking Proselytes who thinketh they have God hard tyed to them in the chaines of a faire-seeming Forme and through that great light he may imagine himselfe to have may become captived under a judgement whose gates may prove as narrow as the eye of a Needle and then it is no marvaile to me to see or heare such persons throw durt in the face of God or in the face of any in whom God doth more abundantly manifest himselfe to then he hath done to them Yet however I will understand the Author of that Discourse in the better sence and will not say that he hath put out that Pamphlet by the power of the ground of the evill that is in his will but rather say and make it good to that he hath put it out from or by the power of the evill in his reason and these sins may happily be pardoned before these which ariseth out of the evill ground in the will for the Apostle Paul himselfe was received to mercy in as much as what he had done he did it in ignorance But now I proceed to what is intended The Authour beginneth his discourse with interpreting the words of such Scriptures as shew what great deceivers shall be in the last dayes and doth make his applications according as his good thinking inspireth him in the understanding of th●se Scriptures quoted by him but that spirit that is his guide herein I beleeve will not let him make the application of these Scriptures to himselfe nor any of his order but if judgement were but layd to the lyne and righteousnesse to the plummet and that the tempest of hayle had but swept away the lying refuge and if he would but weigh his own heart in the ballance of the Sanctuary I make no doubt but he might have made a truer application neerer home for who is the greatest deceivers in the world but such as have a faire seeming Forme of godlinesse and yet live not in the power of God himselfe and these are the greatest hypocrites amongst men for amongst such the white-devill hath his habitation and the well-favoured harlot hath her bed of whoredome most daintily decked whereon her lovers and she take their fill of pleasure O how well and subtilly doth she work when once she getteth her selfe covered over with the habit of Saint-like walkings in the outward form of a litterall Religion which seems to be the worship of God because of its newnesse and well regulated according as good-thinking hath invented carrying men into Scripture without them and yet unacquainted with the Scripture of truth which is within them And from hence it is that the mother of harlots becommeth well decked and bravely mounted upon her searlet-coloured beast and drunke with the blood of the saints let all Formalists in England of what Forme soever Brotherhood or Kirk-fellowship though their Forme may be the best in all the world and come to the very point of example and command of Scripture in its outward requirings take heed for though they may blesse themselves in a fools Paradise and think because they have got at a great distance from the Pope and his fictions therefore they be sure that they have nothing to doe with the Mother of Harlots nor she with them yet they are but cheated for she cannot delight her selfe nor be more secure then where Formes is in fashion For where there is not a Forme this Harlot may be entertained but yet not with such suptuousnesse as in a faire seeming Forme for where there is no Forme she is forced to goe on Foot but in a Forme she becommeth well-mounted Our Saviour knew the truth of this which made him pronounce so many woes against the Formalists in his daies and told them it should be more tollerable for Sodom then for them for