marke it well For who wolde passe ouer a mans saying in a matter where he speketh purposly only of it and take him in an other place where he by chaunce toucheth it but partelie as the case and occasion which he hath in hande doeth there requere who I say wolde so do and meane trewlie HERE Syr peraduenture those wordes whiche Frithe doeth here alledge of Saynt Austen in those foresayde places be the very same wordes whiche Saynt Austen hath in that place that ye speake of And then yf it be so it is well enoughe CATH That shall appere strayght way For that place whiche I speake of is vpon the sixte chapiter of Saynt Iohn Where saynt austen recitinge that same text purposly to declare the meaninge therof hath these wordes Qui manducat meam carnem et bibit meum sanguinem in me manet ego in illo hoc est ergo manducare illam escam illum bibere potum in Christo manere illum manentem in se habere Ac per hoc qui non manet in Christo in quo non manet CHRISTVS procul dubio nec manducat spiritualiter carnem eius nec bibit eius Sanguinem That is to say He that eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloud bideth in me and I in him This is therefore to eate that meate and to drinke that drinke to abyde in christe and to haue christ abide in vs. And by this he that abideth not in christe and in whome christe abydeth not without doubt he eatethe not his fleshe spiritually nor drinketh his bloud How sayest thou now HER. Euen as I thought at the firste For ye can not say but these are so far as they go euen the very same wordes whiche Saynt Austen hath in the firste of the other two places before CATH The verie same sayest thou HERE The very same all saue one worde CATH Ye whiche one is that HERE Thys worde spiritually CATH Thou sayest euen trew And therefore that same one worde spiritually was the verie thinge that caused Frithe to refuse this place of Saynt Austen and to runne to those other two places wherein that worde spiritually was not expressed By reason wherof Frithe had in them some hope where as in this he had none at all For he perceyuinge this place to speake precisely and expressely of one eating that is speciall whiche geueth an other to be vnderstand that is general thought that if he should make his allegation thereof it wolde geue an occasion of a great interruption of all his purpose And therefore he toke the other two places which as he thought semed to deny the very eatinge that is generall to serue hys turne farre better then this whiche doeth expresse the speciall Wherin he clerely deceyued him self as it may well appere by this that Saynt Austen doeth euen here the verie same that he doeth there speake onely as I sayde of one sorte of eaters in speciall and not of all ingenerall Wherfore the same eatinge that S. Austen doeth meane there must nedes be vnderstande of thys eatinge whiche he doeth expresse here For indeede they be all one as the speciall state and sorte of the eaters is of whome he speaketh in all three places Cap. 38. HERE Then I maruel greatly that Saint Austen wolde in these two places so bestow his wordes and speake them after suche a sorte as he doeth CATH Why doest thou maruell there at HER. Because he doeth therin seme rather to meane as Frithe taketh him then to meane as you reporte hym CAT. To whome doeth he so seme to meane HERE To euerie man I thinke CATH That is not so for I and moste men taketh him to meane therin far otherwise then Frithe dothe And therfore he semeth not so to vs as he doeth to him HERE I can not tell how he semeth to you but well I wol he semeth to me and manie other mo to meane euen as Frithe dothe take hym CATH Ye but wotest thou why HERE No not yet CATH In very deede because Frithe and suche other as he was were none of these to whome Saynt Austen wrote in those two places after that sort as he doth HERE To whome thâ—â— CATH Wythout sayle vnto none but onelie to men of good wyll and that of the learned sorte of the Catholyke faythe To whome Saynt Austens mynde is in those two places theare â—ngâ—e and out of all doubte Therfore only to them I say he wrote there as he doeth and not vnto anie such heretikes as Fryth was whome no trewth can satysfie For looke where so euer Saynt Austen wrote any thynge vnto them that is to saie vnto heretikes because they lacke both trewth and also good wil to he left therfore no parte of his minde vnexpressed so farre as the matter requyred wherin he procured their amendment but did at large with suche plainenesse so set it foorth vnto them that they them selues could haue no doubt of his meanynge although they were neuer so vnwillyng to take any profyte of his playne saiynge This he vsed alway vnto them but not alway so vnto vs. Because in vs there was no suche neede For we by his expresse and manifest speakynge of this matter in some place do ryght well know his trew secret and sylent meanynge therof although not expressed in euery other place Wherin we doo not as ye wolde do if ye myght HERE What is that CATH Ye wold hyde and ouerthrow that whiche is very certaine and manifest by that whiche seemeth vncertaine and secret But we contrariwyse as reason compelleth vs do show and defend that whiche seemeth incertaine and secret by that whiche is moste certaine and manifest For where Saint Austen saith They that abyde not in Christe nor Christe in them eateth not his fleshe nor drinketh his blood although they eate and drynke the sacrament of so great a thynge Because he expresseth not there euen certainely what maner of eatyng it is that he meaneth wherefore some are therof in doubt we may and iustly do way that place by this where he saith He that abideth not in Christe and in whom Christe abydeth not without doubt he eateth not his flesh spiritually nor drinketh his blood By this place therfore we waie the other because he excludyng all doubt in this doth plainely expresse what maner of eatyng it is that he doth meane in the other wherein he dooth but leaue it to men of good wyll to be vnderstande who neuer faileth to take it ryght Therefore when that maner of eatynge whyche he dooth meane is made very certaine in the one place and not so in the other That is to say plainely expressed in the one place and not expressed in the other why dyd Fryth alledge him in that place where it is not expressed sith in that maner of eatynge lyeth all the matter and wolde not alledge him in the other place where it is expressed and put cleane out of question what
yet they in the sacrament as Saint Austen doth here plainly say do eate his fleshe and that must nedes be really because it is to playne that it can not be spiritually Wherfore here thou hast now of Saint Austen plainely expressed and distinctlie touched both the very reall eating which is common to good and had and also the spirituall eatyng whiche perteyneth to none but onely to them that be good HERE Yet this place of Saint Austen although ye make the most of it that ye can neuerthelesse it doth not so well satisfie me as you thinke CAT. In that thou shewest of what sorte thou arte And therfore here him in an other place where his woordes be these Illud etiam quod ait Qui manducat carnem meam bibit sanguinem meum in me manet ego in illo Quomodo intellecturi sumus Nunquid etiam illos hic poterimus accipere de quibus dicit Apostolus quod iudicium sibi manducent bibant cum ipsam carnem manducent ipsum sanguinem bibant Nunquid Iudas magistri venditor traditor ipsius quamuis primum ipsum manibus eius confectum Sacramentum carnis sanguinis eius cum caeteris discipulis sicut apertius LVCAS EVANGELISTA declarat manducaret biberet mansit in Christo aut Christus in eo Multi denique qui vel corde ficto carnem illam manducant sanguinem bibunt vel cum manducauerint biberint Apostatae fiunt nunquid manent in Christo aut Christus in eis Sed profecto est quidam modus manducandi illam carnem bibendi illum sanguinem quo modo qui manducauerit biberit in Christo manet Christus in eo Non ergo quocunque modo quisquam manducauerit carnem Christi biberit sanguinem Christi manet in Christo in illo Christus Sed certo quodam modo quem modum vtique ipse videbat quādo ista dicebat which may thus be englished How shall we vnderstande this whiche he saith he that eateth my fleshe and drinketh my blood bydeth in me I in him may we take those to be vnderstande here of whom thapostle doth say that thei eate drinke their own damnacion when they eate the same fleshe and drinke the same blood Also did Iudas the wicked traytour and seller of his maister although he did as Luke the Euangelyste dooth apertlie declare eate and drynke with the other disciples the same sacrament of his fleshe and blood when it was first made in his owne hands abide in christ and christe in him farthermore there be many that euen with a feigned hart do eate that fleshe and drinke that blood or when they haue eate and drinke it forsake ther fayth abyde they in Christe and Christe in them but in very deede ther is a certayne maner of eatyng that fleshe and drynkynge that blood whereby he that eateth it and drynketh it abydeth in Chryste and Christe in him Therfore not in what so euer maner anye man eateth the fleshe of Christe and drinketh the blood of Christe abideth in christe and christe in him But in a certaine maner which maner he saw when he spake these woordes If thou be not here now euen thorowly satisfyed both as touching the certeintee and also the difference of these two eatings and drinkings of Christs most blessed fleshe and blood that is to say both of the reall eating and also of the spirituall eating of it it is not Saint Austen nor all the other holy fathers besyde that therein can satisfy the. For no man can more plainly expresse them then he doth here distinctly deuyde and show them Cap. 40. HHER Ye but sir Frith by al those woordes of eating and drinking of Christs owne very fleshe and blood doth vnderstand none other meaning therof but only spirituall eating and drinking of it in faith and not very reall eatyng and drinkynge of it in deede but after such a sorte as he meaneth and speaketh of in the fourth leafe of his booke where his woordes be these Abraham he saith did eate his body and drynke his blood thorow faith And in the first leafe he saith also It was not necessarie that the woordes should so be vnderstand as they sound That is to say he wold not haue it so taken that these words of eating drinking should as they sound be vnderstand of the very reall eating and drinking of christes owne fleshe and bloud in deede but only of the fayth and beleuing in him as it appereth in the .17 lefe of his boke where he sayth Who so euer dwelleth in Christe that is to say beleueth that he is sent of god to saue vs from our sinnes doeth verelie eate and drinke his body and bloud althoughe he neuer receyue the sacrament This sayeth he is the spiritual eating necessarie for all that shalbe saued And in the .47 leafe As for our faythe he sayth it nedeth not to haue him present in the breade For I may sayeth he as well eate hym and drinke hym thorow fayth that is to say beleue in him as thoughe he were as presentlie in the Sacrament as he was hanginge on the crosse Now therfore by this you may perceyue that Frithe as I sayde doeth vnderstande none other by all those wordes of eatinge and drinking of that fleshe and bloud but only spirituall eatinge and drinkinge of it in faythe That is to say onelie beleuing without any reall eating of it at all CATH What in so many places and so diuersly as our Sauiour Christe him selfe his holy apostles and al the other holy fathers of the Catholike churche doeth speake of it in those playne wordes of eatinge and drinkinge And when none of them all doeth so declare it nor teache it as in witnesse whereof it dothe in the wordes of S. Austen last recited before very clerely appere if thou remember them well When therein he sayeth that those doeth eate the same fleshe and drinke the same bloud of whome the holy Apostle doeth saye they eate it and drinke it to theyr dampnation And playne it is that those whiche eate it and drinke it to theyr dampnation doeth nother eate it not drinke it spiritually For yf they did it coulde not be to their dampnation But to theyr saluatiō Wherfore how so euer Frithe doeth take it sithe it is cleare by Saynt Austen that those which doth eate it drink it to their dampnation doth eate the same flesh and drinke the same bloud and yet not spiritually it must therefore needes folow that they do eate it drinke it euen in very deede really Except thou wylt say they eate it not at all whiche were directly agaynst Saynt Austen and Saynt Paule bothe Farthermore thou shalt vnderstande that in Saynt Austens dayes there were many that came and dyd beleue in the name of Christe whiche were called Cathecumini that is to say herers or learners And so called because they were not baptised for
hede what they beleue and what they thynke I will not deny but those warnings be very good but yet to say they be both one as Frith doth take them who wold vnderstande it so but only he and the blind weiward schole which thou art of Cap. 42. HERRE Sir ye maie say what ye will But neuerthelesse all these woordes of eatyng and drinkyng are not ment litterally but of the eatynge drynking of the sacrament in the only respect of it selfe not in the respect of christs owne very flesh and blood which Frith saith is not there in it in deede CATH Then sith thou wilt be so folishe as to take it after that sort tell me what the Sacrament is HERE As Frith dooth say a figure token or signe of Christes body and blood representyng his deth CATH And is there no more in it but that HERE No. CATH Then why is it damnable to eate it vnwoorthyly HER. Because it is as I sayd a figure token or signe of Christs body and blood representynge his death CATH Ye but then why is the sentence of damnacion declared vpon the vnwoorthy eatynge and drynkynge of it more then vpon the vnwoorthy lookyng or behoulding of it HER. Because Paule saith it is so CATH Nay Saint Paule dooth not say that the one is any more damnable then the other For he speaketh but of the one alone And yet therin his saiynge dooth not make it damnable nother For it dooth but declare it so to bee And therefore I aske of the why the other shoulde not be so to For if I be vnworthy to eate it I am without question vnwoorthy to looke vpon it For beetwene the acte of eatynge and the acte of lookynge or behouldynge doubtlesse there is no difference of any woorthynesse or vnwoorthynesse more in the one then in the other Wherefore if there be none other cause why it is damnable to eate it vnworthyly but because it is a fygure token or signe of Christes boddy and blood representynge his death then it must needes be as damnable to looke vpon it or beholde it vnwoorthyly because figures tokens and sygnes perteyne rather and more commonlie to the sence of the sight then to anye eatynge or drynkynge other And therefore vnwoorthy seyng or beholdyng of it can be no lesse faute then is the vnwoorthy eatynge and drynkynge of it if there be no more in it then thou speakest of Wherfore let vs go farther and consider this that if it be nothynge els but a figure token or sygne of Christes body and blood representynge his death why is the sentence of damnacion declared vpon the vnworthy eatyng and drynkynge of that more then vpon the vnwoorthy lookinge and beholdyng of the Crucifix or the roode For that is a fygure token or signe of Christes boddy and blood representynge his death to whiche it doth much more aptly muche more apparantly much more lyuely and therefore muche more profitablie then the sacramente doeth if there bee no more in the sacrament then thou saist there is For that the roode doth it doth it most sensiblie But that the sacrament doth it doth it scāt intelligibly And therfore if there be no more in the sacrament then is in the roode then is the roode as good and better then the sacrament is HERE No sir not so For I will not deny but the sacramente hath in it that the roode hath not CATH What is that HERE The sacrament hath in it the ordynance of Christe And the roode but the ordinaunce of man For Christe did institute and ordeine the one and man the other CATH Then thou muste needes graunte that therein the ordinaunce of man is better then the ordinaunce of Christe For euery figure token or signe is alway ordeyned to signifie And that signe must needes be best whiche doth most aptly and moste manifestly represent the thinge that it signifieth But the roode doth much more manifestly represent the thing that it signifieth then the sacrament dooth wherefore the roode muste needes bee a better signe then the sacramente is Therefore if the roode bee as it seemeth by Frith a better signe then the sacrament is And the better signe must nedes procede of the better ordinance as the better effect of the better cause it foloweth plaine that the ordinance of man in the roode is better then the ordinance of Christe in the sacrament HERE Tushe sir I can not away with that reason CATH That is because thou art not able to auoide it as thou art not in dede except thou graunt a better thing to be in the sacrament then any figure token or signe other And a better there is none but onely the verye thinge that is thereby signified which is the very body and blood of Christe For what can be directly better then a signe in that kinde of thinges but onely that whiche it dooth signifie because there is no meane betweene them wherof any comparison is to be made but onely of the one to the other that is to saye betweene them two Therefore other thou must nedes graunt the blessed body and blood of Christe to bee verely and really in the sacrament whereby the sacrament is made more and better then is anye other fygure token or signe or els thou must needes graunt the roode to be a better figure token or signe then the sacrament is And so the ordinaunce of man to be better as I sayd in the one then the ordinaunce of Christe in the other Wherefore by this whiche thou darest not graunt thou maist if thou haue any grace well perceiue the very cause why the sacramente dooth in the Iudgement of all trew christen people so farre passe the roode as it dooth For although the roode be a worthy sygne and very expedient for vs to behoulde yet it is not ordeyned but onely to refreshe our memorie fayth and deuocion Where as the vertue of the sacrament is to geue lyfe helth and saluacion Wherof the glorious author him selfe doth saie Take eate this is my body whiche shall be geuen for you He that eateth my fleshe and drinketh my blood hath lyfe euerlastynge and I wyll reyse him vp agayne in the latter daie for my fleshe is veryly meate and my blood is verely drynke And why dooth he say it is verely meate and verely drynke but because we shoulde verely eate it and verely drynke it For what so euer is verely meate is without doubt to be veryly eaten accordingly And therfore what can bee spoken more litterally as touchynge the verytee of the thynge Wherefore it was a very madde and a weyward phansie of Fryth to saye or thynke that there is none other meanynge or vnderstandynge of those plaine woordes of eatynge and drynkynge of that holye fleshe and blood but onely feyth and beleefe And that as I sayde in so many sondrye places and by suche and so many notable and moste woorthy authors as thát matter is spoker of sette foorth and by those
and darkenes or to be the lesse worthy good acception for lacke of some fyne and curious expression or to be regarded after the writer And not as it ought to be euen after the matter what estemers I saye or louers of trewth shall we recken these how vnworthy of trewth be they whiche wyll other refuse it or set the lesse by it for these causes or anie other lyke specially in so great a matter as thys holy Sacrament is Wherfore thys muche haue I sayde for a louinge warnynge and a frindly monition only to them whiche hath neede therof Trustinge that when this that foloweth shall come to their redynge they wyll not forget this necessary warninge but well and wisely will beare it in mynde and vse them selues accordingly For otherwise reade they may but profit they can not And therfore now good Christen readers because no man is or can be herein sufficient of hym selfe but as the holy Apostle dothe say ¶ Our sufficiencie is of God I wyshe vnto you as euen to my selfe the perpetuall succour and helpe of that holie Spirit whiche is the worker and mercifull giuer of euerie good will To whome wyth the Father and the Sonne be honour and glorye now and euer Amen ☞ ♣ IT is to be noted that where I dooe not recite the woordes of Frythe nor any of his allegacions but that I showe in what leafe of his booke the reader maie fynde it ye shall vnderstande that I meane it of his booke whiche is of the first printe bearinge date Anno Domini 1533. for his booke of any other later prynte which I haue hearde of and not seene maie chaunce to varie from the fyrste in the numbre of leaues And so by reason of that it might peraduenture be thought that other I saie not truely of him or els of the places where I report him to saie as he dothe In auoydinge wherof I haue thought it good to geue this knowledge therof before The argumentes of the chapiters THE cause why Frythe doth alledge the olde holie doctours and specially Saynt Austen Cap. 2. That his false vnderstandynge of Saint Austene proued is ful proofe enough against him in all the rest of the olde holy fathers besyde and of the scripture also Cap. 3. How Fryth doth handle this text This is my bodie and Sainct Austen vpon the same Cap. 4. 5. How Frith behaueth him selfe in his allegacion of Saint Austen wrytyng against Adamantus Cap. 6. What Frithe concludeth of the Sacrament and what he maketh of Christe Cap. 7. How frith lieth vpon the plaine litterall sence of Scripture Cap. 8. How Frithe vnder pretence of Englishinge Saynt Austens woordes doth therin falsly expounde theim for his owne purpose Cap. 9. How he lyeth vpon Sayncte Austene and what an argument he maketh betwene this worde eate and this texte This is my bodie Cap. 10. That this text This is my body hath a litterall sense proued by Saint Austen directly agaynst Frithes purpose Cap. 11. How falsely Frithe dothe vnderstande this that Sayncte Austen sayth Christe bore himselfe in his owne handes after a certayne manner and what a certaine maner is Cap. 12. 13. How Frythe pretendeth to beleue Saynt Austen and yet beleueth him not in dede Cap. 14. Of the good and perfit agrement of the wordes of Saynt Austen where he sayth ye shall not eate thys body that ye see nor dryncke that bloud whiche they that crucifie me shall shede out And where he saythe Christe hathe geuen vs the same flesh to eate wherin he walked here in yerth Cap. 15.16 How directly Frithe in apert wordes is agaynst Christe Cap. 17. How Frythe deceyued him selfe in thys text what if ye see the sonne of man ascendynge thyther where he was before and how he belieth Saynt Austen vpon the same Cap. 18. What a parte Frithe playeth with Saynt Austen in vnderstandynge of this texte The fleshe profiteth nothing Ca. 19. That Frithe gathered out of the olde Fathers sayinges not theyr meanynges but his owne foolyshe dremynges wherby he deceyued himselfe and other also Ca. 20 What the spirituall vnderstanding of this matter is And that Frithe vnderstode it not Cap. 21.22 That it is not euen properly spoken to saye that Christe hath now a naturall body or naturall fleshe Cap. 23. What spirituall vnderstandynge is after the mynde of Chrisostome Cap. 24 He that vnderstandeth Christes fleshe to be immortall and vnderstandeth nothing in it to the contrary vnderstandeth it Spiritually Cap. 25. That those whiche are and shalbe dampned in Hell and so continew for euer can not for all that be trewly properly called immortall Cap. 26 That there is nothing now in Christes body that may be so vnderstande as it is now in our bodies or was in his before his resurrection Cap. 27. 28. How falsly Frithe dothe vnderstande those places of S. Austen whiche he dothe alledge out of his worke De Ciuitate dei libro 21. Cap. 25. and out of his sermon as Frithe dothe note it De sacra feria Pasche Cap. 29. 30 How many maner of wayes the blessed body of Christe is eaten And whether it may be properly sayde to be any way eaten corporally or not Cap. 31 Of the difference that is betewne Corpus Corporale That is to say betwene a body and a bodely thynge or perteynyng to a body Cap. 32. That the Sacrament in respect of it selfe is not corpus that is to say not a body and yet it is corporall And that there is no such corporalite in Christes bodie now as is in ours Cap. 33 That althoughe the blessed body of Christe be of good Catholike men for dyuerse good causes called corporall and naturall yet it is not properly so but supernaturall and super corporall Cap. 34 Whether the quantite of Christes body now be suche as ours is or whether he hathe his quantite therof as we haue ours or no. Cap. 35. 36 That Frithe dothe not alledge Saynt Austen vpon certain textes of Scripture euen there where he goeth euen purposely vpon them but taketh hym in other places where he toucheth but parte of the sense to confyrme therby suche other matter as he hath in hande And the cause why that Frithe dothe vse hym so Cap. 37. The cause why that Saynt Austen doth some time write more obscurely to vs then he doth to heretikes Cap. 38 That not only the very reall eatinge of Christes blessed body in the holy Sacrament whiche is generall but also the spirituall eating of it whiche is speciall is proued by Saynt Austen Cap. 39. That Frithe by Saynt Austen is conuinced in this that he wolde haue none other eating of Christes very body but only spirituall whiche he meaneth to be nothyng els in effecte but onlie to beleue that Christ died for vs. Cap. 40. 41. That if Frithes fayth were trew the ordinance of man in the Roode shuld be better then the ordinance of christ in the Sacrament Cap.
And therefore therin to holde and kepe them styll Frith doth labour and trauayle with his wringyng and wresting of this same certaine maner to such an vnderstanding as nother the wordê of S. Austen nor yet any reason authoritee or learning can beare or suffer For he thorow lacke of puttinge any difference betwene the thing done and the maner of the doing doth so confound them together that with his handlyng of the one he deceiueth him selfe and many mo in the trewth of them bothe But such was his lacke not onely of learninge but muche more of grace For it is two thinges to teach what was done whereof S. Austen saith Christ bore him selfe in his owne handes after the letter And to teach how or after what maner it was doone wherof S. Austen saith no farther but that it was done after a certaine maner of which certaine maner here he declareth no farther because as he doth trewly say the veritee of the thyng the faythfull doth know And therfore because he declareth here no farther thereof Frith of his owne head taketh vpon him to do it him selfe after his hereticall maner Whom if we coulde beleue we might thynk our sauiour Christe no better then a very stone without as he sayth any parell of damnacion at all Wherefore if thou haste marked well what I haue hitherto sayd thou maist easely perceiue how foolishe and false his vnderstandyng of Saynt Austen is Cap. 14. HERE That is to be weyed as we fynde him in the ende For he hath mo places of S. Austen for his purpose then these And specially one whiche passeth all that ye haue herde of him yet and directly against the place of the. 33. psalme whiche you haue alledged CATH Which one is that HERE In the 27. leafe of his booke he dothe alledge Saint Austen both in latine and in Englishe also after this sorte saiyng that Saint Austen saith Non hoc corpus quod videtis estis manducaturi nec bibituri illum sanguinem quem effusuri sunt qui me crucifigent Sacramentum aliquod vobis commendaui spiritualiter intellectum viuificat vos caro autem non prodest quicquam That is to say You shall not eate this body that you see nor drinke that blood which they that crucifi me shall shed out I haue geuen a certaine sacrament vnto you if it be spirituallye vnderstand it quickneth you But the flesh profiteth nothinge Now sir of this Frith doth aske this question What thinges can be more plainely spoken CATH And I aske of him agayne what thinges can be more falsely vnderstande then he doth vnderstande them for if he had vnderstand them trewly or bene willyng so to do he might and wolde as well alledged S. Aust in these wordê which he hath no farther from that place then in the very selfe same leafe where he saith of our sauiour Christe Suscepit enim de terra terram Quia caro de terra est Et de carne Mariae carnem accepit Et quia in ipsa carne hic ambulauit ipsam carnem nobis manducandam ad salutem dedit Nemo autem illam carnem manducat nisi prius adoraueri inuentum est quemadmodum adoretur tale scabellum pedum domini That is to saie He toke earth of earth because fleshe is of earth And of the fleshe of Mary he toke flesh And because he walked here in the same fleshe and for our helth hath geuen vnto vs the same fleshe to eate but no man doth eate that flesh except he honour it before it is found how suche a foote stoole of our Lorde should be honoured Now although it doth not here for lacke of that which goeth before euen euidently apere why S. Austen doth chiefly speake these words yet may I say of this place the same and as well as Frithe dothe saye of the other what thinges can be more playnely spoken More playnly spoken I say as touching the veritee of Christes own blessed flesh and bloud in the holy Sacrament For is it not here most playnly expressed of Saynt Austen that Christe for our healthe hath geuen vnto vs the same flesh to eate wherin he walked here in earth And where did he so giue vs that to eate but in the holy sacrament Therefore what coulde Saynt Austen saye more to the very playnesse of the matter if a man had asked him purposely how he did beleue therein or what his faith was in that behalfe HERE Nay then if Saynt Austen can handle the matter after suche a sorte as of the other side in the parson of Christ to say You shall not eate thys body that you se nor drynke that bloud whiche they that crucifie me shall shed out And farther say I haue geuen a certayne sacrament vnto you yf it be spiritually vnderstande it quickeneth you But the fleshe profiteth nothinge If Saynt Austen I say can handle the matter so that he will speake so playnly of bothe sides and make for eache parte beinge so contrary as Frithes opinion and yours is trust him who will for so wyll I neuer from hence furth CATH Perchaunce no more thou hast done hetherto HERE Yes that I haue alway till now CATH So wolde Frithe say for his parte if he were to answere therin And yet I dare say he trusted him no farther then he thought be should make for his purpose And as it appereth no more doest thou nor any of you all HERE Why say you so for as touching Frithe I am well assured that he trusted saynt Austen aboue all men as it dothe by his owne wordes euidentlie appere CATH If he had so done in deede as he did falsely so pretende he wolde not alledged the one of these foresayd places and lefte the other behinde as he doeth being so nere together in one leafe as of some volume they are in deede but wolde alledge them both and made some conference betwene them of their agrement if he had trusted Saynt austen as wel in the one as he did in the other How be it because he saw the one place make so playnely with our belefe that he coulde cast there vpon no colour to the contrary he left out that and brought foorthe the other whiche as he thought might seeme to make only for his purpose altogether Wherefore this cam not of any trust that he had in Saynt Austen in deede but of the trust he had in his owne false and wylie handlinge of some certayne places of Saynt Austen to deceaue hys disciples withal wherof he chose this place whiche thou hast alledged to be one For if he had trusted Saynt Austen as he pretended to doo he wolde haue trusted him as well in the one of these places as in the other where as now it is playne he trusted him in none of them bothe or at the least mistrusted him in the one and onwares or wilfully wolde mistake him in the other HERE Why syr wolde he haue hym trust Saynt
it was then nor the same then that it is now in one respecte And yet the very same then that it is now and the very same now that it was then in an other respecte For suche is the difference betwene the substance and the state condition and accidentall qualites of any thinge that it may alway and trewly be sayde to be the same and not the same in those dyuerse respectes Cap. 16. CATHOLICVS Thou makest me greatly maruell to here the speake HERE Why so CATH Because thou haste as thy wordes doeth declare so good vnderstanding of the difference that is betwene the substance of a thinge and the state condition or accidentall qualites of the same And yet neuerthelesse wilt take Saynt Austen so ouerthwartly as thou doest For where he sayeth Christ hath giuen vs the same fleshe to eate wherein he walked here in earthe Thou takest hym to meane that fleshe in euery condicion wyth all suche accidentall qualites as it had then And not in the only respecte of the substance of it And agayne where he sayeth Ye shall not eate this body that ye see Thou takest him to speake that in respecte of the substance and not in the onelie respecte of the state condition and qualites of it So that thou vnderstandest Saint Austen wronge in bothe places That is to saye thou takest his meanynge of the fyrste place to be in the seconde and of the seconde to be in the first as the places them selues are well able to declare For where he sayth Christ hath giuen vs the same fleshe to eate wherein he walked here in earthe Cleare it is that in this same worde vs Saint Austen amonge other ment hym selfe to be one And in that he ment him selfe to be one amonge other to whome he sayeth Christe hath geuen his fleshe to eate playne it is he neuer mente that Christe gaue it him or them to eate but as it was in his tyme when he should eate it And in his time when he shoulde and did eate it it was nother passible nor mortall nor yet subiecte to any such other accidentall and naturall qualites as it was before the resurrection therof Wherfore thou mayest by thys with halfe an eye perceue that Saynt Austen neuer spake those wordes of Christes geuing his owne fleshe to eate in respecte of anie suche qualites but onlie in respecte of the veritee of the substance HERE Then why doeth he adde vnto them these wordes sayinge Wherein he walked here in earth CATH That he doeth to declare his mynde and meaninge in the veritee of the thinge whiche was in Saynt Austens time euen as it is now the very same wherein he walked here in earth and is now in the holy Sacrament The verie same I say in the only respecte of the substance but as euerie man doeth or ought to know not the same in respect of those qualites which in his resurrection were chaunged into such perfections as are to vs inscrutable and incomprehensible And therfore of the other side where Saynt Austen sayeth Ye shall not eate this body that ye see Why wilt not thou see that to be spoken not in respect of the substance but of the qualites when the facultee of seyng or sight doothe no farther extende or pertayne but vnto the vnderstanding of the qualitees and not of the substaunce For if he had sayd Ye shall not eate this body and gone no farther Or had added vnto it these woordes Which shalbe geuen for you As it was sayde at his institucion of the holy sacrament it had bene then an other matter But when he saieth Ye shall not eate this body that ye see What is it els to say but that ye shall not eate this body visible or this body sensible or this body in such condicion and state as ye now see it in When the seeyng it selfe dooth import no farther of the body but as aperteyneth vnto the sight or sensibilitee thereof HERE Then why doth he adde vnto it these wordes saiyng I haue set foorth vnto you a certayne sacrament If it be spiritually vnderstande it geueth you lyfe But the fleshe profiteth nothyng CATH First these woordes But the fleshe profiteth nothyng Are in this place of Frithes owne adding and putting vnto the other before And not of Saynt Austens puttyng there How be it because they be the woordes of the gospell and of Saint Austen recited not far from the same place where Frith doth take the rest I wyll not cleane omit them but I will spare them for a while And first go to this that he saith I haue set foorth vnto you a certayne sacrament and beyng spiritually vnderstand it geueth you lyfe Therefore what other thinge is that to say but this that when he saith Ye shall not eate this body that ye see Ye shal not eate it in such sorte as ye see it but as it shal be in a sacrament wherin ye shall not see it For els if he had not so ment he woulde not haue sayde Except ye eate the fleshe of the sonne of man and drynke his blood ye shall not haue life in you For he ment not that fleshe to be eaten in that proper visible fourme whiche they saw and yet to be eaten in deede for all that or els he woulde not haue denied lyfe as he dothe for the not eating of it And therfore eaten it must needes be of very necessitee Althoughe not that as it was of them seene but yet that as it shuld be of them and vs both trewly and verily beleued in the holy sacrament And for that cause he saieth I haue sette forth vnto you a certayne sacrament and beyng spiritually vnderstande that is to say farther and farre otherwyse then your sences can reache it geueth you lyfe Wherefore because here appeereth both eatyng and not eatyng of one thynge both at once whiche are bothe trew And that can not be in one respect it must therfore nedes folow to be vnderstand and taken as the trewth is in two respectes Wherof the one that is to say the eatyng is in respect of the verye thinge with the inuisible state occult and secrete behauiour thereof as it is in the holy sacrament And the other that is to say the not eatyng is not but in respect of the visible fourme and sencible apparence thereof to their eyes And therfore this eating and not eatinge be not here so direct contraries as thou takest them for Cap. 17. HHERE. Then where is this become that he saith If it be spiritually vnderstand it geueth you lyfe As who say or els it doth not CATH I haue tolde the that already HERE Ye but yet euen therin consisteth Frithes purpose altogether as it maie partly apeere by that he saith in the .21 leafe of his booke where he recityng the saynge of Christe to the Iewes that beleued him not And also the minde of Saint Austen therupon as he saith he hath these woordes Christe said doth
stande here now betwene vs bothe thynkest thou that we shoulde see these thinges in hym as in like case we shoulde see them in other and aske them no leaue or that his very beyng betwene vs should let thy seyng of me or my seynge of thee as an other mans direct being betwene vs should do whether we or he wolde or not except it were his holy pleasure so to do And therfore because the altitude of this matter extendeth so farre beyonde the common reache of our reason and vnderstandinge how to auoyde euery how that hath is or may chaunce to be hurled agaynst it but with other like howes of the same sorte it pleased hym of his infinit goodnesse for the coroboration of the verite of our fayth herin to leue vnto vs in his holy scripture some ye and sufficient examples therof For how dyd the ponder ofite of his holy boddy behaue it selfe when he walked vpon the water did it not there forsake the common order of nature and submit it selfe wholy and only to his will How did the visible forme of his whole body wherein al these thinges were contayned behaue it self when the Iewes wolde haue horled stones at him in the temple if they had not suddenly lost their sight of it did not also that euen there then leaue the order of nature and folow his only wyll likewyse mo plates diuerse there be for the purpose whiche shal not neede to be recited now Therefore if he had these accidentall qualites of hys body so obedient vnto his wyll that he myght as he dyd vse them at hys pleasure contrarie and agaynst all the rules of nature he beinge then in a mortall state and they of them selues in a naturall course how muche more now and euer since are they subiecte to his will he hauinge his body glorified and in a state immortall wherin they are also chaynged from what so euer the state of mortalite in them requered Wherfore if he hath them not as we haue of necessite but as the trewth is at hys liberte to vse or not vse them as I sayde before when where and how so euer therein hys holy wyll and pleasure is and shalbe where are all your knappyshe and scorneful cauillations become that ye by the natural course of these thynges make agaynst hys reall and very presence in the holy Sacrament saying what so longe and large a body with hādes feete armes legges hed heere backe and belly in so litle a roume and space as the Sacrament is of and yet more ouer nother see him nor feele him nother who wolde beleue thys In deede none of you whiche frame your beleuynge after your sensible seing and feelynge But neuerthelesse what are all these cauillations of yours to the purpose all these I say wyth other of some of you more shamefully inuented then of vs conueniently may be recyted Therfore what if thou thy selfe haddest the sensible forme of thy bodie at the liberte of thyne owne wyll to show or not show it how when and where thou liste woldest thou not some tyme be so amonge men that nother by their seynge nor yet by theyr feelynge they should beware of thee And when thou were so amonge them after that sorte wolde it folow that thou were not there because they coulde not se thee nor feele thee Therefore by these your owne obiections it appereth playne that your cogitations and vnderstandynges herein runneth not but directly and only after the fleshe and not after the spirite Ye and that after the fleshly fleshe without any sparke or respecte of any spirituall fleshe at all Wherein lieth so muche of the matter as caused the Holy Apostle to saye Althoughe we haue knowne Christ after the flesh yet we do not so now That is to say Not now after as it was when he walked in it here in yerthe accordyng to the course of nature and so therein suffered at lengthe But now after the spirite and as the spirite had obteyned it when and before he sitting in Emmaus with the two of hys dysciples showed him selfe vnto them fyrste in one forme whereby they knew him not and immediatly after in an other wherby they knew hym in deede And yet there vpon so suddenlye vanished away from theyr syght that bothe they and also we myght and may thereby vnderstande and perceyue how very subiecte and obedient his sensible forme was and is vnto his holy will to vse thys way or that way at hys only pleasure Therefore it foloweth not that he is not presently and verely in the holy Sacrament because he suffreth vs not therein sensibly to se him nor feele him But this foloweth well that because he suffreth vs not to haue any suche sensible experience of him therein we be so muche the more bounde therefore to thanke hym as all the merit and profit of our faythe commeth to in that holy mistery Wherein amonge all other artycles faythe is in none as I thynke more excellent and necessarie Wherefore thys thou haste nowe harde euen more then enoughe to perceyue how farre Frithe was for all his babling pretence of the contrary from the very spirituall vnderstandynge of this great mystery And thorow his lacke of that and of good will together what blinde and dampnable falshed he fell into bothe in hys vnderstanding of the Scripture and also of Saynt Austen likewyse I thynke I haue declared vnto thee so muche therof that thou canst not with reason require anie more wherby thou mightest any better know what he was then by thys that I haue showed thee all redy Cap. 29. HERE Why say you so for be you well assured he hath yet one other place of Saint Austen for his purpose whyche passeth all that we haue spoken of hytherto CATH I pray thee what is that HERE In the 23. and the .24 leafe of hys booke he doeth vpon this sayinge of Christe He that eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloud bydeth in me and I in hym Alledge Saynt Austen in these wordes Qui manducat carnem meam bibit meum sanguinem in me manet ego in illo Hoc est ergo mandu care illam escam illum bibere potum in christo ma nere et illum manentem in se habere ac per hoc qui non manet in Christo in quo non manet Christus procul dubio non manducat eius carnem nec bibit sāguinem etiamsi tantae rei Sacramentum ad iuditium sibi manducat bibit That is to say He that eateth my fleshe and drynketh my bloud abideth in me and I in him This is therfore the eatinge of that meate and drinikng of that blood to abyde in christe and to haue him abydynge in vs. And therfore he that abideth not in Christe and in whom Christe abideth not without doubt he eateth not his fleshe nor drynketh his blood although he eate and drinke the sacramente of so great a thynge vnto
his damnacion And vpon this Fryth him selfe hath these woordes This one place saith he is sufficient to proue my purpose though he saide not one woord more For here he dooth plainely determyne that he which abideth not in Christe That is to saie he that is wicked or vnfaithfull doth not eate his fleashe nor drynke his blood although he eate and drynke the sacrament of so great a thynge And so must it needes folow that the sacrament is not the very naturall body of Christe for then the vnfaithfull shoulde eate his fleshe seynge he eateth the sacrament of his body How saie you now CATH Is this all HERE No not so For although this be enough yet he hath more CATH Let vs then haue it altogether HERE In the same leafe Fryth goeth farther with these woordes This saiyng saith he hath sainte Austen in an other place also where he writeth in this maner Qui non in me manet in quo nō ego maneo nō se dicat aut existimet manducare corpus meū aut bibere sanguinem meum Non itaque manent in Christo qui non sunt eius membra Non sunt autem membra Christi qui se faciunt membra Meretricis That is to say He that bideth not in me And in whom I abide not let him not saie or thynke that he eateth my bodye or drinketh my blood They abide not in Christe which are not his membres And they are not his membres which make them selues the membres of an harlot And these saith Frith are also the very words of Bede Wherunto he addeth of his owne woordes these Here is it plaine saith he proued againe by the auctorite of S. Aust and Bede that the wicked and vnfaithfull which are not the membres of Christe do not eate his bodie nor drynke his blood And yet they do eate the sacrament as well as the other Wherefore you must needes graunte saith he that the sacrament is not the naturall bodie of Christe but a fygure token or memoriall thereof Now sir do you marke well these places of S. Austen and what Frith doth here gather of them CATH Ye very well HERE Then I pray you say now euen as you thinke do they not euen cleane ouerthrow the principall purpose of what so euer ye haue said before CA. In dede I wold graunt no lesse if they had in them none other meaning but this that frith picketh out of his own heretical dreaming HER. His hereticall dreaming What meane you by that CATH I will tell the so thou wilt first consider his old foolishe accustomed conclusion which he doth here inferre and renew againe and that in both these places HERE What conclusion is that CATH Be not these his woordes It must needes folow and ye must needes graunt that the sacrament is not the naturall body of christe What is this to his purpose of the not beyng of Christes very body in the sacrament to be and to be in is all one with him Whereof I haue tolde the enough before And therefore what fyndest thou els in anie of these two places of Saint Austen that can make any thynge for his purpose HERE I wonder that ye wyll aske me that question sith they make so muche and so cleerely for him as they do For whether you take the sacrament it selfe to be the very body of Christ of Christes very body to be verely in it these places maketh directly against you in them both CATH How so HERE Doth not the first place say as Frith hath declared that to eate Christes fleshe and drynke his blood is to abide in him and he in vs and by that he that abydeth not in Christe nor Christe in him eateth not his flesh nor drinketh his blood although he eate and drinke the sacrament thereof Now this beinge plaine enough yet to confirme the same doth not the seconde place say also let not him say or thynke that he eateth my body or drynke my blood which abideth not in me and in whom I abyde not Therfore they abyde not in Christe which are none of his membres And they are none of his membres which maketh them selues the membres of an harlot And yet cleere it is that such wicked persons doth often times eate and drynke the sacrament Wherfore if other the sacrament it selfe were Chrystes verie body and blood or his very body and blood were verely in it it shulde and wolde nedes folow that suche wicked lyuers and vnfaythfull persons as neuer abyde in Christe nor he in them whiche dooe daiely eate the sacrament shoulde therin eate his very bodye and drynke his blood And that doth Saint Austen in bothe places vtterly deny Cap. 30. CATH What doth he deny HERE Marry that such wicked persons do eate the very body of Christ when they eate the sacrament CAT. And therof wilt thou infer that the very body of christ is not in the sacrament HE. What els for that muste needes folow CATH Saint Austen saith not so HER. No not in those woordes but yet he saith as much as that commeth to For if the very body of Christe were verely in the sacrament then should those wicked persons that abydeth not in Christe nor Christe in them eate his very body when they eate the sacrament CATH And euen so they do in deede HERE Will you say so when Saint Austen saith plainly nay CATH And so say I to HERE What ye and nay eate and not eate one thynge both at once CAT. Ye why not HERE Nay then it is tyme to make an ende and euen to byd you farwell if ye talke after that sorte CATH If thou so do thou doest therein but as it is common with suche as thou art For ye will be sure to shake of a matter if ye maie when ye haue most nede to herken well to it HERE Who woulde not shake of suche a talke as ye make for how can the eatynge and not eatynge of one thynge both at once stande together CATH Although I haue tolde the before yet once againe I will tell the how if Fryth or thou for him will tell me one thynge that I will aske the. HERE What is that CATH I would know what maner of eatynge this is that Saint Austen doth meane and here speake of HER. Tushe sir I praie you go not about the bushe with any such questions but go directly to the matter and there an ende CATH Callest thou that a goyng about the bushe to trie certeinly what a man dooth meane by that he saith HERE Ye sir when the woordes be so plaine as nedeth it not For Saint Austen saith that those persons doth not eate the body nor fleshe of Christe when they eate the sacrament And what wolde ye haue more plainly spoken then that is CATH I graunt it to be both plainely spoken and also trewly But yet nother plainely nor trewly nother as Frith doth take it For he taketh it not to be spoken but of the
spirituall eatinge and the reall eatynge must needes go so together that the one can not be wythout the other CATHOLICVS That is not trew excepte it be in beleefe For therein they must needes go alway together But els so muche they dyffer and are some tyme a sonder that an infidele may chaunce to eate it really but yet for lacke of faythe neuer spiritually And a good Christen man may eate it spiritually althoughe thorow some lawfull impediment he eate it not reallie Wherefore by thys it is cleare that all the sort of you whyche denieth it as Frithe doeth to be eaten really without doubt do neuer eate it spiritually Wher in your tortuous and eluishe doctrine doeth most manifestly appere For ye holde wyth that whiche ye neuer do And vtterly deny that whiche ye dayly do HERE How so CATH Ye graunt and holde with the spirituall eatinge of Christes holy fleshe which eatinge without fayle ye neuer come to And ye stifly deny the reall eatinge of it which eatinge in deede ye often and commonly do And therfore when ye do that whiche your selues denie how is it done but vnworthyly and wherto tendeth that but as the Apostle sayeth to your owne dampnation but now I let that passe and to an other place of Saynt Austen where hys owne wordes be these Sicut audiuimus cum sanctum euangelium legeretur dominus Iesus Christus exortatus est promissione vitae aeternae ad manducandam carnem suam bibendum sanguinem suum Qui audistis haec non dum omnes intellexistis Qui enim baptizati fideles estis quid dix erit nostis Qui autem inter vos adhuc Cathecumini vel audientes vocantur potuerunt esse cum legeretur audientes nunquid intelligentes Ergo sermo noster ad vtrosque dirigitur Qui iam manducant carnem domini bibunt sanguinem eius cogitent quid manducent quid bibant ne sicut Apostolus dixit Iuditium sibi manducent bibant Qui autem non dum manducant non dum bibunt ad tales epulas inuitati festiment Per istos dies magistratus pascunt Christus quotidie pascit mensa ipsius est illa in medio constituta Quid causae est O audientes vt mensam videatis ad epulas non accedatis Et forte modo cum euangelium legeretur dixistis in cordibus vestris putamus quid est quod dicit Caro mea vere esca est sanguis meus vere potus est Quomodo manducatur caro domini bibitur sanguis domini Putamus quid dicit Quis contra te clausit vt hoc nescias Velatum est Sed si volueris erit reuelatum Accede ad professionem soluisti quaestionem Quid enim dixerit dominus IESVS iam fideles nouerunt Tu autem Cathecuminus diceris Audiens surdus es Aures enim corporis patentes habes quia verba quae dicta sunt au dis Sed aures cordis adhuc clausas habes quia quod dictum est non intelligis Whiche may thus be Englished When the holy gospell was red as wee haue herde our Lorde Iesus exhorted vs to the eatinge of his fleshe and drinkinge of hys bloud with the promyse of euerlasting lyfe You whyche haue hearde these thynges do not yet all vnderstande them For you whiche are baptized and are faythfull doeth knowe what he sayde But those amonge you whiche are yet called Cathecumini or hearers may be hearers but therein vnderstanders thynke you Therefore our sermon is directed vnto bothe Nowe those whyche doeth eate the fleshe of our Lorde and drynke hys bloud lette them take heede what they eate and what they drynke leaste as the Apostle sayeth they eate and drinke it to theyr owne dampnation But let them whiche doeth not yet eate nor yet drynke beynge inuited make haste vnto suche dayntes For in these dayes magistrates doeth eate Chryst doeth dayly feede That table of his is set in the middes What is the cause O ye herers that ye see the table and come not to the delicates perchaunce now when the gospell was redde you sayde in your hartes perceiue wee what it is that he saith my fleshe is verely meate and my blood is verily drynke how is the fleshe of the lorde eaten and the blood of the lorde dronken perceiue we what he saith who hath hid it from the that thou knowest it not hid it is But if thou wilt it shall be opened Come to the profession and thou hast solued the question For those that be now faithfull knowth what our lord Iesus sayd But thou art called an herer and yet in heryng thou arte deaffe For thou hast the eares of the body open because thou herest the woordes whiche are spoken But thou hast the eares of the hart yet shut because thou vnderstandest not that whiche is said Now meaneth Saint Austen here nothyng els by all these playne words of eatyng and drynkyng of Christes holy fleshe and blood but onely faith and beleefe which only Frith doth call the spirituall eatyng and drynking thereof saiyng there is none other but that Therfore is it onely that eatyng and drinkyng whereunto Saint Austen doth here inuite those which he calleth Cathecumini or heres who hath feith as he sayd before and doth beleue in the name of Christe all ready and beareth his crosse in their forheades is it also that eatyng and drynkyng that is to say onely faith and beleefe Wherevnto he doth here inuite them with the name and promise of deinties and delicates set vpon the table the name of the table deintes or delicates pretēdeth declareth an other maner of eatynge and drynkynge then is onely feith and beleefe if thou loke well vpon it moreouer is only faith and belefe that same eating and drinking which as he saith our sauiour Christe doth exhort vs vnto with the promise of euerlastyng lyfe when the Cathecuminus as he doth also declare hath faith and doth beleue in the name of Christ and yet cummeth not to this eating and drinking that Saint Austen speaketh of Is it not also that eating and drinking that is to say only faith and belefe wherof he saith let them whiche doth eate the fleshe of our lord and drinke his blood take hede what they eate what they drinke lest as thapostle saith they eate it and drinke it to their own damnacion He saith not how they eate how they drinke but what they eate what they drinke And what meaneth he by that same what very bread in a bare significacion as Frith doth take it did not those Cathecumini or herers take it so whom S. Austen doth reprehēd wherfore did he blame them but because they beleued therin to be nothing els but only that wherin they were deceiued to How be it after Frithes vnderstandyng it is all one to say let them take bede what they eate and what they drynke and to say let them take
figurata loquutio est Nisi Manducaueritis inquit carnem filij hominis biberitis eius sanguinem non habebitis vitam in vobis Facinus vel flagitium videtur iubere Figura est ergo praecipiens passioni dominicae esse communicandum suauiter atque vtiliter in Memoria recondendum quod pro nobis Caro eius crucifixa vulnerata sit That is to say When so euer the Scripture or Christe seemeth to commaunde any foule or wicked thinge then must that text be taken figuratiuelye that is it is a phrase allegory and maner of speakyng and muste be vnderstande spiritually and not after the letter Except saith Christe ye eate the fleshe of the sonne of man and drynke his blood ye shall not haue lyfe in you He semeth saith S. Austen to command a foule and a wicked thynge It is therfore a figure commaundyng vs to be partakers of his passion and sweetely and profitably to prynte in our minde that his fleshe was crucified and wounded for vs. Now haue you harde his allegacion of S. Austen both in latine and also in Englishe CATH Therefore thou shalt here myne allegacion also of the same place of S. Austen againe and then tel me how Frithes allegacion therof and mine both agre together For S. Austens woordes be these Si autem flagitium aut facinus videtur iubere aut vtilitatem aut beneficentiam vetare figurata loquutio est Nisi Manducaueritis inquit carnem filij hominis sanguinem biberitis non habebitis vitam in Vobis Facinus vel flagitium videtur iubere Figura est ergo praecipiens passioni dominicae esse communicandum suauiter atque vtiliter recondendum in Memoria quod pro nobis Caro eius crucifixa vulnerata sit That is to say If the Scripture seme to commaunde an euill or a wicked thinge or forbid a profite or a good thinge it is a figuratiue speache Except ye eate he saith the flesshe of the sonne of man and drynke his blood ye shall not haue lyfe in you Therfore it is a figure commaundinge vs to be partakers of his passion and swetely and profitably to prynt in our memorie that his fleshe was crusified and wounded for vs. Here thou maiest now perceiue plaine that Fryth hath not so many latine woordê in his allegacion of S. Austen as I haue in myne and yet I haue fewer Englisshe woordes in myne then he hath in his by a great sorte HERE How cummeth that to passe CATH Not without a falshed of his parte if thou marke it well For where these fewe latyne woordes of S. Austens Figurata loquutio est are no more to say but as I haue sayd it is a figuratiue speeche Fryth doth Englyshe them after this sorte saiyng Then must that text he taken figuratiuely that is it is a phrase allegorie and maner of speakynge and muste be vnderstande spiritually and not after the letter Hast thou harde of any trew man that wolde or truly coulde so turne those latine woordes into Englishe as he doth Doest thou not see how his wily falshed doth here vnder pretence and colour of Englishinge S. Austens woordes brynge in nothyng els but his owne false phantasticall exposicion of them to make his disciples beleue and thinke that Saint Austens meanyng was but accordyng to this his owne false feynynge what woordes hath Saynt Austen here that may be wrested to this whiche this false lyar doth say it must be vnderstande spiritually and not after the letter where fyndeth he this same not after the letter therin lyeth all the matter And thereof here speaketh S. Austen nothinge at all For he saith no more but that this texte Excepte ye eate the flishe of the sonne of man and drinke his blood ye shall not haue lyfe in yow Is a figuratiue speache And dooeth not saye onely figuratiue or not litterall as this marchaunt doothe beare vs in hande and woulde make vs beleue that he dooth HERE Yet sir if it bee a figuratius speche then must it be vnderstand figuratiuely CAT. That is trew HE. Therfore if it must he vnderstand figuratiuely then it may not be vnderstand litterally CATH That foloweth not For Fryth him selfe doth graunt and say as I tolde the before that some texts must be vnderstand both figuratiuely and also litterally And therfore why may not this which Frith speaketh of be one of them as it may indeed for any thing that Saint Austen saith here to the contrary And yet as though S. Austen had said the contrary as he doth not this false Raynard is not ashamed to knit vp the knot with these woordes This trewth saith he thankes he to god doth Saint Austen declare vnto vs. which thinge besyde the openynge of this text against maister Woores minde doth plainly show what he thought in the woords of Christes supper Whiche is no more to say but that those woordes maie not be vnderstande after the letter because here Saint Austen telleth vs nothing of that matter whether they may or not Therfore doth not Saint Austen declare this trewth vnto vs very well when he speaketh nothing of it HERE Sir if it might be vnderstande both figuratiuely and also litterally to S. Austen wold not haue made mention as he dooth of the one sense and not of the other CATH How knowest thou that HERE It is most like so CATH Ye to Frith And therfore that is enough to him to conclude so falsely therof as he doth But thou muste vnderstande that it was not Saint Austens minde there to speake of any of them both that is to saye nother of the one sense nor of the other but as it chaunsed the one and not the other to serue his purpose for example of that he had in hande whiche was to geue a rule whereby a figuratiue speach in the scripture might be knowen And not to discusse how or whether that text might bee litterally vnderstande or not And therefore graunt this to be trew which Fryth doeth here say that Saint Austen Dothe plainly show what he thought in those woordes of christes supper Yet it foloweth not thereof that he dooth showe all that he thought therin For it is two thinges to show what he thought and to showe all that he thought HERE Marry syr that is trew but Fryth for the openynge thereof dooeth alledge him agayne in these woordes Cap. 3. CATH Nay softe I praie thee let vs fyrste here what Frithe fayth more of this place whiche he hath here alledged all ready before we go anye farther For he hath yet showed vs almost nothyng what he gathereth of it after his owne mynde but onely his false exposicion thereof brought in as I sayde vnder the colour of Englishyng of Saint Austens woordes Therfore let me here what he saith farther of it him selfe without any cloke or colour at all HERE That shall ye do For immediately after this his saiyng that S. Austen doth plainly show what he thought in
the woordes of Christes supper he addeth vnto it these woordes For sith he called it saith Frith a foule and a wicked thing to eate his fleshe then may you soone perceiue that he thought it as foule and as wicked a thinge to eate his body seyng his bodie is fleshe And then consequently it shall folow that other this woord eate where Christe saide take this and eate it must be taken spiritually or els that this saiyng of Christe This is my body muste be figuratiuely spoken But this woorde eate is taken after the letter for they did in deede eate the bread therfore it must needes folow that this sentence This is my body must be figuratiuely spoken Now haue you hearde what he saieth and gathereth of it him selfe CATH Than saiyst trew And therfore shall I neede to byd thee marke his false lye that he maketh here agayne of Saint Austen For doth Saint Austen call it a fowle and a wicked thynge as this lyar sayth he doothe when he sayth no more but that the scripture therin seemeth to commaunde an euyll or a wicked thyng Saint Austen nother calleth it so him selfe nor yet doth say that the scripture calleth it or commaundeth it so nother He saith the scripture so mech to commaunde suche a thynge And doth not say the scripture doth commaunde it But in deede to commaunde and seme to commaunde to call and seme to cal or to be seeme to be is all one with Frith As who say there is nothing otherwyse then it semeth to be nor any thyng semeth to be otherwise then it is HE. Sir ye can not auoyde his argument so CATH His argument what is that HERE Ye haue harde how he dooeth say that Either this word eate which Christ said take this rate it must be taken spiritually or els that this saiynge of Christ This is my bodi must be figuratiuely spoken But this woorde â—ate saith he is taken after the letter for they did he saieth eate the bread therfore it must needes folow that this sentence This is my body must be fyguratiuely spoken CATHOLICVS I meruayle where Frythe learned this kynde of argumente whiche can brynge forth such a woorthy conclusion For dooth it not properly folow that this sentence This is my body muste be figuratiuely taken because as he saith this woorde eate is taken after the letter And this he doothe but say without any proofe at all HERE That is not so For he dooth proue that this woorde Eate is taken after the letter CATH That is but a parte of it and yet for all thy saiyng he proueth not that nother HERE Yes he proueth it by this that as he saith they did eate the bread CATH Ye but that I denye For without question they dyd eate that which they were byd to eate whereof it was to them sayde Take eate This is my body whiche shalbe geuen for you And that was not breade except thou wilt say that bread was geuen for their redempcion And therfore where he saith that this woorde bread is taken after the letter And therof would haue it folow that this sentence This is my body muste be figuratiuely spoken I aske him why figuratiuely more then lytterally or why fyguratiuelie and not rather litterally For if the woorde of eatynge he taken after the letter dooth it not thereof muche better folowe that the woordes of that whiche is eaten shulde be taken after the latter likewise To take the woord of eatynge in a litteral sence and therfore the woordes of the thyng eaten is a figuratiue sence is more strange then I can skil of Yet the one saieth he must needes folow the other But by what reason although no man can tell yet to such as will needes beleue him it is good enough although it be neuer so false and foolishe to any man els And therefore sith it appereth in the .47 leafe of his booke that he taketh not the eatynge of Christes body but onely for the beleuynge in him I aske him why may not this woord Eate be taken spiritually as well as this text This is my body be spoken figuratiuely or why may not the same text be taked litterally as wel as this woorde Eate be taken after the letter sith thes be so ioyned together HERE Because there is a great difference betwene them CATH Ye that is as Frith woulde haue vs take them but not as our sauiour Christe in the vnitee of sence and sentence together doth ioyne them For there is no doubte but the meanynge of this woorde Eate and also the meanynge of this same saiynge of Christe This is my bodye are bothe together of him so inseperably kint and conteyned in this one sentence Except ye eate the fleshe of the sonne of man and drynke his blood ye shall not haue life in you That they both maketh one perfit sentence and sence whether thou take it to be litterall or spirituall And therfore by this one lesson aforesayde it maye well appere that they can not so differ in sence but that they muste other be bothe spirituall and not literall or bothe litterall and not spirituall or els bothe not onely spirituall but also lytterall Wherefore Frythe can not saye that they be bothe spirituall and not litterall because he sayeth â—he an◠〈◊〉 them that is to saie this woorde Eate is taken after the letter Againe he can not say that they are both litterall and not spirituall because he dothe both holde and say that the other which is This is my body must be taken figuratiuely that is to say spiritually And therfore it must needes folow that they be bothe not only spirituall but also litterall Cap. 11. HHERE. Syr that can not be For as I was about to tell you before Frithe bringeth Saynt Austen playne agaynst it CATH How so HERE Looke you in the .23 leafe of hys booke and there shall ye finde how he dothe alledge Saynt Austen bothe in Latin and also in Englishe in these wordes Quando loquebatur dominus noster Iesus Christus de corpore suo Nisi Inquit quis manducauerit carnem meam et biberit sanguinem meum non habet in se vitam Caro enim mea vere est cibus et Sanguis meus vere est potus Intellectus spiritualis credentem saluum facit quia littera occidit Spiritus est qui viuificat That is to say When our Lorde Iesus Christe spake of his body excepte quod he a man eate my fleshe and drinke my bloud he shall haue no life in him false For my fleshe is very meat and my bloud is very drinke The spiritual vnderstanding saueth him that beleueth for the letter killeth but the spirit quickeneth Here you see playne that Saynt Austen is clearly agaynst the litterall sence CATH Whether he be or not it is Frithes minde therein whiche I require HE. That shall ye haue for his owne wordes vpon the same place be these Here maye you playnelie
be so and not onely so HERE Ye why not Cap. 18. CATHOLI Then if thou rest vpon that what if Frith knew not what the spirituall vnderstandynge of it is HERE Yes that I dare saie he did CATH Then he wolde haue geuen it a difinicion and made it certaine before he had wrought anie conclusion thervpon as euery threw and wyse persuader dothe in what so euer he taketh vpon him to proue But this we see he did not And why but other because he was therin ignoraunt and therfore coulde not do it or els because he was of such a malicious falshed that though he could ye he wolde not doe it Which is of the twayn most lyke to be trew For he saw perchance that if he had made a good difinicion or playne distinction betwene the spirituall and the carnall vnderstandyng therof it should not only not haue serued but also clene haue destroied his purpose altogether And therfore he chose rather to roue at a vēture thē to shote at any mark certein wherfore let vs seke out the certeinte of this spirituall vnderstandyng And that once had wee shall soone see whether he went about to bring it to light or els to hyde it all together or no. For he will not deny but that Saynt Austen and other olde auncient fathers and doctors of the holy church did certeinly know it when he pretendeth to proue all his purpose moste chiefely by them HERE I graunt that for them he wil not deny CATH Then remember thou well what I haue hytherto sayd And let vs returne to thexaminacion of that which thou hast recited all ready out of the 21. leafe of his booke HERE Marry sir that is how Christe to those that beleued him not did say Doth this offende you what if ye shall see the sonne of man ascendynge thyther where he was before Then addeth S. Austen saith he you shal know that he ment not to geue his fleshe to eate with your teeth For he shall ascende hole c. CATHOLICVS Is this Saint Austens saiynge vpon those woordes of Christ HERE So saith Frith CATH Therefore here thou shalt see once agayne what Frith was For if it were not for auoyding of tediousnesse I woulde recite vnto the the very woordes of S. Austen vpon those words of Christe both in latine and also in english but his woords in latine turned into englishe shall be sufficient which are euen very these Christe answerynge sayd Dothe this offende you that I sayde I geue you my flesshe to eate and my bloodde to drynke This offendeth you in deede Therefore what if ye see the sonne of man ascendynge thyther where he was before What is this By this he eased some whom he knew By this he opened wherwith they were offended Wherwith vtterly if they woulde haue vnderstande it For they thought him to deuyde and distribute his body But he sayde he wolde ascende into heauen euen whole When ye shall see the sonne of man ascendinge where he was before ye shall certaynlie see euen then that he distributeth not his body in that maner that you thinke Ye shall euen then certenly vnderstande that his grace is not with bytinges consumed Now where is this that Frithe sayeth of Saynt Austen You shall know that he ment not to geue his fleshe to eate with your teethe Where is this I saye where is it in deede it can not be founde And therefore in the steede of that thys we finde that Frithe was nothinge ashamed of his lies For if he had he wolde neuer haue put so many of them in his writinges as he did And besides this what faute is there here founde with those vnbeleuers of Christe whiche vnderstode him not in this matter HERE This faute That their vnderstandinge ranne vpon the fleshe of Christ CATH That is false For their faute was not therin but it was in their misvnderstanding of the maner of it as here Saynt Austen in playne wordes doeth well declare they thought him to deuyde and distribute his body peece mele And that misvnderstandinge doeth Christes question touche directly sayinge What yf ye see the sonne of man ascendynge where he was before What were this question of his hoole body to the purpose if it were not to confound and ouerthrow their misvnderstandinge of the diuision therof in partes for by this he opened as Saynt Austen sayeth wherewith they were offended Whiche was with the distribution and erogation of his body in partes as they thought So that their faute for whiche they are here reprehended was for that they gaue no farther credence to Christ in the maner of geuyng his fleshe to eate then theyr owne imagination and blinde vnderstandinge did leade them vnto And not for that they thought hys meanynge to be of hys owne very fleshe in deede For whiche thinking of his owne very fleshe they bare here no smake of any blame at all as they should haue done if it had bene a faute so to thinke Wherefore this thou mayst see how very nothinge this place maketh for Frithe notwithstandinge all the great trust that he had therin Cap. 19. HERE Ye but syr ye must consider that as you haue herde Frithe goeth farther then this Saying euen there Christ addeth It is the spirite that quickeneth the fleshe profiteth nothinge This text excludeth all vnderstanding of flesh and driueth vs to the spirit altogether CATH There Frithe wolde haue it indeede But why doeth he not bringe in Saynt Austen there as well vpon this text The fleshe profiteth nothinge As he wolde make vs beleue he doeth vpon this other before It is the spirit that quickeneth Sythe they ioyne so nere together as immediatly one text after an other can do HERE He thought it was no neede because this The fleshe profiteth nothinge is so playne of it selfe CATH It is harde to finde thee without an excuse But neuerthelesse thou shalt here what Saynt Austen sayeth of it for all that And then iudge why Frith did passe it ouer For Saynt Austens wordes turned into englishe are euen these What is this sayth Saynt Austen that he putteth to it it is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing let vs say vnto hym because he suffreth vs not speakinge contrary but coueting to know O good lorde and mayster how doth fleshe profit nothing when thou hast sayd except a man eate my fleshe and drinke my bloud he shall not haue lyfe in hym doth lyfe profit nothing And for what pupose are we that we are but that we might haue euerlasting life whiche thou hast promysed with thy flesh Therfore what is it profiteth nothing the fleshe profiteth nothinge but as they vnderstode it for they vnderstode fleshe so as it is rent or torne in a dead carkas or as it is soulde in the shambles and not as it is quickened with the spirite Therfore so it is sayde the fleshe profiteth nothinge as it is sayde science puffeth vp Now therfore ought
in bothe For as he tooke the one to be onely and mere spirituall So he tooke the other to be only and whole carnal Which are bothe false as it may well appere and it were but by the very substance of the thinge it selfe whiche indede is fleshe But yet some way so spiced with spiritualitee that it is nother carnall nor yet only or mere spirituall but spiritually to be vnderstande for the spirituall state whiche it hath obteyned Cap. 24. HERE Syr then let me here somewhat more whereby I may better perceyue what spirituall vnderstandinge is For yet I know it not CATH It is euen that whiche is not carnall HERE By that am I neuer the nere CATH Therefore mende thy question and then thou mayest chaunce of a better answer HER. Then what is carnall vnderstandinge CATH That is well asked For with that thou shouldest begyn Because that once knowne thou shalt know the other so muche the better For that order in the same matter vpon this text the fleshe profiteth nothing doth holy Chrisostome folow in these wordes Quid autem est carnaliter intelligere simpliciter veres dicuntur Neque aliud quippiam excogitare Non enim ita iudicanda sunt quae videntur Sed misteria omnia interrioribus oculis consideranda hoc est spiritualiter Qui non manducat carnem meam et bibit meum sanguinem non habet vitam in semet ipso Quomodo nihil prodest caro sine qua nemo potest viuere vide quod ea perticula caro non prodest quic quam non de ipsa carne sed de carnali auditione dictum est That is to say But what is it to vnderstande carnally simply as the thynges are spoken and to imagyn therof nothing els For those thinges which are seene are not to be iudged so But all mysteris are to be considered with the inwarde eyes This is spiritually He that eateth not my flesh and drinke my bloud hath not lyfe in him Now doeth the flesh profit nothing without the whiche no man may lyue Marke that this parte the fleshe profiteth nothing is not sayd of the fleshe it selfe but of the carnall hearyng of it Here by this thou mayst well perceyue that carnall vnderstandinge extendeth no farther herein then sensible experience doth leade But spirituall vnderstanding extendeth to that which no sensible experience is able to reache or come vnto although it be in sensible thinges As the grace of baptim although it be in the sensible sacrament and ministration thereof yet it is insensible it selfe Farther more thou mayst here also perceyue that holy Chrisostome doeth not reprehende the vnderstandinge of the fleshe it selfe but the carnall hearyng of it That is to say the fleshly or fleshy vnderstanding of it Whiche is when it is taken and vnderstande after the fleshe as it is in the commen course of nature For that he doeth here reprehende and nothing els Cap. 25. HERE Well syr let it so be And wolde you haue me therefore vnderstande very fleshe to be in the Sacrament CATH Indede I wolde haue thee beleue it HERE I take vnderstanding and beleuynge to be without any great difference in this case And therfore because this poynt runneth vpon spirituall vnderstandinge how can I vnderstande very fleshe but that myne vnderstanding thereof must be carnall and after the fleshe whiche I do vnderstande CATH Ye what fleshe doest thou meane HERE Mary Christes flesh CATH I pray thee hartely vnderstande that flesh euen after that fleshe and spare not For so thyne vnderstanding of it shall nother be carnall nor yet natural nother as carnall and naturall be communly taken For if thou vnderstande that fleshe after that fleshe indeede thou doest then vnderstande it euen as it is and not as it was that is to say as it is now and hath bene euer since his resurrection But not as it was betwene that the first time of his incarnacion How be it this same carnal after the flesh that I meane here is not in him properlie called carnall after the flesh now but spirituall and after the spirit Because in him what so euer was cōteyned vnder or in the signification of this worde carnal is now turned so farre into the contrary that it is comprehended vnder the signification of this worde spirituall And therfore if thou vnderstande that fleshe after as it is now thine vnderstanding of it is then spirituall and not carnall HERE Ye but although that fleshe be as ye say spirituall yet it is fleshe And therefore sithe it is flesh how shall I know when I vnderstand it spiritually and not carnally CATH When thou doest vnderstand it as it is HERE Ye how is that CATH Immortall For if thou vnderstande it otherwise then so thou vnderstandest it carnally and after the flesh and not spirituallie For althoughe immortalite commeth to the flesh yet it commeth not of the fleshe but of the spirit And therefore if thou vnderstand it immortal thine vnderstanding therof is spirituall HERE Of immortalitee we haue none experience And therefore how or by what meane shoulde I vnderstande it immortall For I take immortalitee to be suche a thynge as doeth farre passe my vnderstandynge and as I tkynke yours to CATH Althoughe it passeth my vnderstanding neuer so farre yet so longe as it passeth not my beleueynge I do not care but I am afrayde that it passeth not only thy vnderstandinge but also thy beleuynge to HERE Nay that it doeth not for I beleue it verely CATH Then if thou do so For the proufe of the thinge this onely testymonie of of the holy Apostle is enoughe where he sayeth Christus resurgens ex mortuis iam non moritur Mors illi vltra non dominabitur That is to say Christ rysing from death dieth no more Death hath no more dominion ouer him Therfore that liuinge fleshe whiche is aboue and be yonde al the power of death must needes be immortall For althoughe death it made once a fray wherin death gat the victory and the fleshe gaue way for a litle whyle yet soone after that same fleshe gat the victory of death agayne and that for euer Wherefore if there were no more nor anie thinge els wherby to vnderstande it immortal but this one testimoni of thapostle it were as it is sufficient euen enoughe to any good christen man HERE Syr because ye speake of enough Is it enough to vnderstand or beleue it immortall CA. It is enough so thou vnderstande or beleue therin nothing to the contrary HR As how CAT. No corruptiblitee no passibilitee no necessitee nor any thing els to be therin y e apperteyneth by any occasion to the contrary For as these do naturally appertayne and belonge vnto the state of mortalitee so doeth their contraries supernaturally appertayne and belonge vnto the state of immortalitee Cap. 26. HERE Then me thinke by your sayinge that impassibilite doth appertayne to immortalitee so that they must needes go
other why as I sayde before can there be found in his so doinge but onely falshed For who wòulde take a mannes tale to witnesse where he speaketh but obscurely or incerteinly and vtterly refuse it there where he speaketh it full hole and plainly any man els but onely Frithe and such as he was for the plaine place he wilt well he could nother ouerthrow nor yet wrynge it to anye apparence of his purpose But the obscure and ambiguous place he thought he might wrest whiche waie he liste and so to make many beleue as he did in deede that it sufficientlye serued his turne HERE Yet ye confesse that place of Saint Austen whiche Frythe dooth alledge to be obscure and ambiguous CATH Ye to them that lacketh good wyll or knowledge But not to them as I sayde whiche be learned and of the catholyke sayth Wherefore thus maiest thou see Why Frith alledged that place of Saint Austen and not this so craftylie as he dyd Whiche was no more but onely because when he saw there was made therein no speciall mencion by name of the reall eatynge whiche is moste common and generall nor yet of the spyrytuall eatynge whiche is more singuler and specyall but of eatynge symplie without anie dyrecte or proper distinction he thought he myght vnderstande of them bothe whiche he lyst or els take it as thoughe there had bene none other maner of eatynge thereof but euen verie one alone And thereuppon he did take that place to be no lesse then enoughe and very sufficient to proue his purpose As I graunt it had beene in deede if it had beene after that sorte to be vnderstande as he tooke it But he looked so muche vpon this poynte that he founde there no mencion made of anie dystynction of eatynges whereby he thought he myght take as I sayde whyche he lyste or one for all that he forgat what mencion Saynt Austen made there of the distynctyon although not of eatynges yet for all that of eaters whiche was enoughe to show what maner of eatynge he mente For as his manifest speakynge was there of a peculiar sorte of eaters so his very meanynge muste needes be vnderstande of a peculiar maner a eatynge For it is agaynst all reason and trewthe to denye that to some whiche is common to all or to graunte that to all which perteyneth but to some And therfore thou maist well know that Saint Austen wolde not do so For he denyed not there but onely that eatynge whiche apperteyneth vnto some and not vnto all That is to say only to them that be good and not vnto them that he nought Of whom there he dooth make mecion and of none other For the libertee real of eating perteyneth both to good and bad But the spirituall eatyng perteyneth to none but onely to them that be good Cap. 39. HERE Sir Saint Austen maketh no suche distinction or difference betwene reall and spiritual eatyng nor betwene generall and speciall eating as ye speake of CATH Why saiest thou so for although he doth it not euen in those maner of woordes with suche conference of both together as thou woldest haue yet he doth it in deede for all that as it doth right well appere vpon the syxt of Saint Iohn Tracta 27. where his woordes be these Hoc totum quod dominus de carne de sanguine suo loquutus est Et quod in eius distributionis gratia vitam nobis promisit aeternam Et quod hinc voluit intelligi manducatores carnis sanguinis sui vt in illo maneant ipse in illis Et quod non intellexerunt qui non crediderunt Et quod spiritualia carnaliter sapiendo scandalizati sunt Et quod eis scandalizatis pereuntibus consolatio domini affuit discipulis qui remanserant ad quos probandos interrogauit Nunquid vos vultis ire vt responsio permāsionis eorum innotseceret nobis nam ille nouerat qui manebant Hocergo totum ad hoc nobis valet DILECTISSIMI vt carnem Christi sanguinem Christi non edamus tantum in sacramento quod multi mali sed vsque ad spiritus perticipationem manducemus bibamus Vt in domini corpore tanquam membra maneamus vt eius spiritu vegetemur non scandalizemur etiamsi multi modo nobiscum manducant bibunt temporaliter sacramenta qui habebunt in fine aeterna tormenta That is to say All this that our lorde spake of his fleshe and his blood And that in the grace of distribucion therof he promised vnto vs lyfe euerlastynge and that therof he wolde to be vnderstande that the eaters and drinkers of his fleshe and blood should abyde in him and he in them And that they did not vnderstande whiche did not beleue And that they were offended by vnderstandynge spirituall thinges carnally And that they beyng offended and perylshynge the comforte of our lorde was present to the disciples which did abide vnto the probacion of whom he asked wil you go away that the answere of their abiding might be also knowen to vs for he knew them whiche did abide All this therefore most deerely beloued auayleth vnto vs for this purpose that we shoulde not eate the fleshe of Christe and the blood of Christe onely in the sacramente whiche many doth that be nought but that we shoulde eate and drynke it vnto the part taking of the spirite that wee shoulde abyde as membres in the body of our Lorde that we might be quickned with his spirite And that we should not be offended although many now dooth eate and drynke the sacramentes with vs temporally whiche shall haue in thende tormentes eternall Now what canst thou wishe more plainely spoken for the reall eatynge and drynkynge of Christes most precious fleshe and blood in the holy sacramente then when he sayth as here thou seest we eate it not onely in the sacrament that same not onely in the sacramente dooth moste cleerely declare it to be therin euen verely eaten for he wolde not haue said not onely in the sacrament but not in the sacrament For not in the sacrament and not onely in the sacrament are two thinges Not in the sacrament denyeth it to bee eaten therein but not onely in the sacrament confesseth it to bee eaten therein and also other wise to Wherefore this very reall eatinge of Christes blessed flesh and blood in the holy sacrament must nedes be common and generall when as here S. Austen saith many doth it which be nought whose eating therof thou maiest well know commeth not to the perticipacion or partaking of the spirite that quickneth when those be they that abyde not in Christe nor Christe in them And therefore the participacion or partakynge of the spirite therin is and must needes be the spirituall eatynge whiche is not generall but speciall and proper onely to those that abyde in Christ and Christ in them as the noughty and euill sorte dooth not And
that they beleued not some certayn mysteries in some of the Sacramentes And therfore where the gospell doeth say that when Christ was at Ierusalem in the tyme of Easter many did beleue in the name of hym for the myracles they saw him do but Iesus did not commit hym selfe vnto them Saynt Austen vpon the same place doth say that all those be suche whiche are called cathecumini that is to say herers or learners For his owne wordes thereof in latin be these Tales sūt oēs Cathecumini Ipsi iā credunt in nomine Christi Sed Iesus non se credit eis Intendat intelligat charitas vestra Si dixerimus cathecumino credis in Christo Respondet credo et signat se Iam crucem christi portet in fronte Et non erubescit in cruce domini sui Ecce credit in nomine eius Interrogamus eum manducas carnem filii hominis bibis sanguinē filii hominis Nescit quid dicimus quia Iesus non se credit ei Which may thus be englished Cathecumini are al of the same sort For they beleue in the name of christ But Iesus cōmitteth not him self vnto thē Let your charite marke and vnderstande If we shall say to the cathecumini doest thou beleue in Chryste he wyll answer and say I beleue and blesseth him self Now he beareth the crosse of Chryst in hys forehead And is not ashamed of the crosse of hys lorde Beholde he beleueth in hys name We aske hym agayn doest thou eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke the bloud of the sonne of man he knoweth not what we say because Iesus hathe not committed hym selfe vnto hym How sayest thou now what thinge is it whiche thys Cathecuminus doeth here not know when he is asked this playne question of the eating and drinking of Christes most blessed fleshe and bloud The wordes be playn And therefore what is there in them that as Saynt Austen saieth of him he doeth not know HER. The spirituall vnderstanding of it CATH What meanest thou by the spirituall vnderstandinge of it HERE The spyrituall eatinge and drinkinge of that flesh and bloud CATH Ye but what is the spirituall eatinge and drinkinge therof HERE It is as Frithe hath sayd to beleue in Christe CATH To beleue in Christe is it that thinkest thou whiche Saynt Austen doeth here meane that as he sayeth this Cathecuminus doeth not know when he hym selfe sayth of him that he beleueth in christe Thou mayst perceyue it can not be so For yf S. Austen had ment here none other eatinge and drinkynge of it but that he wolde not haue noted him to be ignorant of his question when he him selfe reporteth him to beleue in the name of Christe For that were as muche as he requireth if he had ment nothinge els Therfore if thou perceyue it not alredy let vs looke farther what S. Austen doeth meane by hys not knowinge Anie thinge els but his not beleuinge And what meaneth Saynt Austen by his not beleuing but that he beleueth not accordinge to his askyng And what is it to beleue accordinge to his askinge but to beleue the very eatinge and drinkinge of Christes fleshe and bloud for that is the verie playne question whiche he doeth aske him Wherfore that must needes be the thinge which the Cathecuminus knoweth not And that because he beleueth it not And therfore it is hys lacke of faithe in the reall eatinge and drinkinge of Christes holy fleshe and bloud that Saynt Austen doeth here finde faute wyth him for And not for anie other eatinge and drinkinge therof which as Frithe sayeth is nothinge els but onely faythe and beleue in Christ Whiche fayth as Saynt Austen sayeth this Cathecuminus hath and yet christ committeth not him selfe vnto hym Therefore when Saynt Austen doeth aske him the question of eatinge and drynkinge of the fleshe and bloud of the sonne of man it is an other eatinge and drinking that he doeth meane and speake of then this Cathecuminus doeth knowe or beleue or els he wolde not réprehende hym therein as he doeth It is an other also then Frith doeth beleue when he sayeth a man may vse it althoughe he neuer receyue the Sacrament And therfore what other is it but euen only the very reall eatinge and drinking of it in the holy Sacrament Cap. 41. HERE Why syr doeth not Saynt Austen say as Frithe doeth alledge in the .17 leafe of hys booke Why preparest thou teethe and belly beleue and thou hast eaten CATH What of that wilt thou gather thereof that there is none other eating of it but only beleue Therefore if there be an other what doeth this make for Frythes purpose or thine other And that there is an other haue I not proued it all reddie before by the manifest wordes of Saynt Austen hym selfe Wherefore if thys be trew as Frithe doeth say it is that these wordes of eatinge and drinking in this matter meane nothing els but faythe and beleefe it must needes folow that Saynt Austen doeth here vniustlye reprehende this Cathecuminus of whome he doeth confesse no lesse hym selfe but that he hath faith and beleueth in the name of christ And beside that this must also folow thereof likewyse that when he sayeth Beleue and thou hast eaten It is no more nor none other to say but beleue and thou hast beleued What reason is this or who wolde thinke S. Austen to meane so HER. Why what should he there meane els CATH Euen as he dothe which is this Beleue trewly and thou hast eaten spiritually For the spiritual eating commeth not to passe but thorow the whole trewth of beleuing And the hoole trewth of beleuinge consisteth not in holding some partes of the fayth and denyinge some other but in holdinge them whole euen altogether Therefore Saynt austen doeth here as in many other places moe farther mean then he doeth expresse For where he doeth here as touching the fayth no farther say but beleue yet he meaneth these wordes wholy and trewly to be vnderstande with all For he meaneth no suche beleue as is mixed or corrupted with any falshed or with the lacke of any parte of it Therefore besyde thys he meaneth farther then so to For he meaneth not that same beleefe nother althoughe it be neuer so whole and trew whiche is infected with euyll and wycked maners But he meaneth that whiche as the Apostle doeth say worketh by charite Wherfore beleue so and I wyll graunte that thou hast eaten or els not For withoute that maner of beleuynge whiche is but accordinge to Saynt Austens meaninge doubtles there can be no spirituall eatinge at all And in that maner of beleuinge there is and must needes be contayned the verye beleefe of the reall eatinge For the spyrytuall eatinge was not ordeyned for the reall eatynge but the reall eatynge for the spirituall eatynge And therfore without the very beleefe of the reall eatinge the spirituall eatynge can neuer he had HERE Then the
drinking the fleshe and bloud which were offered for vs do signifie HERE Yet syr ye make thereof no parfyt sense For as I asked of you before what doo we sygnifie we can not sygnifie except we sygnifie somewhat And as ye doo handle it there is nothing expressed Wherefore there must other be somewhat vnderstande or els thys worde signifie maketh no sense at all CATH There is no doubte but some thynge there is to be vnderstande And what is that but the deathe of Chryste whyche before is expressed specially when Saynt Ambrose meanynge none other but euen the same doeth say We myndefull of this thinge do signifie it in eatinge and drynkinge the fleshe and bloud whyche were offered for vs And this is the sense and very meaninge of Saynt Ambrose wordes HERE Here is a maruaylous thinge to see how Frithes Englyshinge of thys matter and yours doeth dyffer For where ye say the meanynge of it is thys that we sygnifie the death of christe Frythe doeth say we sygnifie the fleshe and bloud whiche were offred for vs. CATH If Frithe wyll needes vnderstande it and take it so then I aske of him how and after what maner do we sygnify them HER. In eatynge and drynkinge sayeth S. Ambrose CA. Ye wherof HERE Frithe sayth of the sacrament CA Ye but there frith lieth For S. Ambrose saith not so For he sayth of the fleshe and bloud whyche were offred for vs. In eatinge and drinkinge of them sayeth he we signifie the deathe of Christ For he hath not here any such worde as the Sacrament is nor any suche meaninge as Frithe doeth say he meaneth nother Wherfore by thys it may once agayne euen playnly appere that Frythe doeth here falselie belie Saynt Ambrose as he doeth Saynt Austen and all the other holy fathers besyde And therefore I pray thee tell me one thinge that I will aske thee HER. What is that CATH Thou seest what a place of Saynt Ambrose Frithe hath pykte out for his purpose and how he hath handled hym selfe therein HERE What of that Cap. 44. CATH Why did he not as well alledge Saynt Ambrose in this place that is to say Libro 4. de Sacrament Cap. 4. Where hys wordes are euen these Panis iste panis est ante verba sacramentorum Vbi accesserit consecratio de pane fit Caro Christi That is to say This bread is breade before the woordes of the Sacramentes But when the consecration is cum to it there is made of the breade the fleshe of Christe And in the next chapiter of the same booke his wordes be also these Antequam consecretur panis est Vbi autem verba christi accesserit corpus est Christi Denique audi dicen tem Accipite edite ex eo omnes Hoc est corpus meum Et ante verba christi Calix est vini aquae plenus Vbi verba christi operata fuerint ibi sanguis efficitur qui plebem redemit That is to say It is breade before it be consecrat But when the wordes of Christe commeth to it it is the body of Chryste And for proufe therof herken to him that sayth Take and eate of it all you This is my body And before the wordes of Christ the Chalice is full of wyne and water But when the wordes of Christe hath wrought there is made the bloud whyche redemed the people Farthermore in the .6 booke and the fyrst Chapiter of the same worke his wordes be these Sicut vaerus est dei filius dominus noster Iesus Christus non quemadmodum Homines per gratiam sed quasi filius ex substantia patris Ita vaera caro sicut ipse dixit quam accipimus That is to say As our Lorde Iesus chryste is the verye sonne of God not as men are by grace but as the Sonne of the substance of the father So is it very fleshe as he sayth him selfe whiche we receyue Now therefore tell me why that Frithe doeth not alledge these places of Saynt Ambrose amonge many other lyke in hys wordes besydes as well as that other place whiche he doeth alledge and so falsely handle as I haue declared vnto thee Is there any other why but only because he was not able to deface the manifest trewth of these places as he did so farre as in hym lay the trewth of the other Besyde thys he doeth in the .39 leafe of his booke alledge also the blessed martyr Saynt Cyprian in these wordes Cyprian sayeth sayeth he that the people is annexed in the sacrament thorow the myxture of water Why therfore doeth he not as well alledge hym in that place where he hath these wordes Panis iste quem dominus discipulis porrigebat non effigie sed natura mutatus omnipotentia verbi factus est caro That is to say This breade whiche our lorde gaue hys disciples beynge chaynged not in outward forme but in nature by the almighty power of the worde is made fleshe This place made not for Frithes purpose And in deede no more did the other nother as it may well appere by this that he nother doth nor yet can frame any maner of proufe of hys purpose by it For he doeth no more but without cause therof fayne hym selfe to maruell that men will not vnderstande and take it as he doeth For therevpon his wordes be these I maruell me muche sayeth he that they are so contentions and wyll not see that as the water is the people so the wyne is christes bloud that is to say in a mistery because it representeth Christes bloud as the water doeth the people Here thou seest he gathereth of this place whiche he doeth alledge of Saynt Cyprian nothing els but only a maruell that we take it not as he wolde haue vs. HERE Yet syr he doeth saye that as the water is the people so the wyne is Christes bloud that is to say in a mistery because it representeth Christes bloud as the water doeth the people CATH Trew it is that so he sayeth but so he doeth not proue it for all that And therefore as he doeth but only say it of Christes bloud euen so he doeth but only meane the lyke of Chrystes fleshe Wherof Saynt Cyprian doeth not say this bread is made in a mistery sygne or signification of fleshe but he sayeth it is made fleshe That is to say fleshe indeede for if he had not verelie-beleued the nature of the bread whiche he taketh for the substance thereof to be as he sayth by the almighty power of the word conuerted and chaynged into the very fleshe of Christe in deede he wolde neuer haue so sayde of it as here thou haste hearde he doeth Wherfore now thou seest how well S. Ambrose and Saynt Cyprian bothe serueth hys purpose in Saynt Austen And euen so wythout question doeth all the rest of the olde holy Fathers which he doeth alledge besyde For doubtlesse of them all he doth nothynge els but onelie
accidentall qualitees and propertees thereof declarynge it to bee rather suche as it is then what it is Therefore if Fryth saye that Gelasius ment both substance and nature that I maie well denie because his woordes be disiunctiuelie spoken of the one or the other HER. Yet maie we then choose and take which of them we will CAT. Which shall that be HER. Substaunce CATH Nay not so For thereof Gelasius maketh a restraynt him selfe if thou marke it well For when he dooth say They continew in the propertee of their nature he sayth not in the propertee of their substaunce Whiche had bene as much to saye as in the propertee of their chiefe and principall beynge For of the substaunce euery thynge that is a body as breadde and also wyne is hath his nominacion Therfore he saith not in the propertee of their substaunce But in the propertee of their nature as of a lesse beynge then of substaunce And yet euen therein this is also to be noted to that he sayth not in their nature but in the propertee of their nature For nature and the propertee of nature is not without a difference as it is well proued by this that the one procedeth and is sayde of the other For the propertee of nature is but the operacion of it accordynge to the same Whereof nature is some tyme letted by one occasion or other And yet then althoughe it be so put or let from the proper operacion thereof it is neuerthelesse nature styll for all that And therefore Gelasius to amende or qualyfye his woordes of substaunce or nature and to auoyde all synyster vnderstandynge therof doth adde vnto them and saye They continew in the propertee of their nature As he mighte saie I do not meane the verye substaunce or nature it selfe but the naturall quantitees qualitees and propertees thereof Wherefore if he had ment as Frith dooth take him to meane the very substaunce or nature it selfe of breadde and wyne styll to remayne in deede it had beene superfluous and to no purpose but rather a very folly to tell vs as he dooth that they continew in the propertee of their nature For who doeth not know that all substanciall and naturall thinges for the tyme of their beyng do contynew in the propertee of theyr nature Therefore Gelasius was to wyse and to well learned to teache vs that for a speciall or a necessary lesson whych euery man knoweth alredy HERE Why euery man doeth know that they contynew in the properte of theyr nature CATH Ye but euery man doeth not knowe that they so do wythout their owne proper substance And that is the cause why Gelasius doeth so say therof as he doeth For els he should speake it wythout cause or any neede at all And that he wolde not do For yf he had thought or ment that the very substance or nature it selfe of breade and wyne had therin contynued styll he wolde not haue sayde they contynew in the propertee of theyr nature whiche euery man knoweth but he wolde haue sayde they contynew in the verytee of theyr substance because the contrary therof is wel and trewly beleued For therin lyeth all the doubt or question if anie be In so muche that when it is hearde that the substance or nature of a thynge doeth cease to be it is thought by and by that the propertee thereof doeth cease wythall because in the common course of thinges it doeth so in deed This same thought therfore did Gelasius intende to helpe when he sayth they contynew in the propertie of their nature As who saye althoughe theyr proper substance and nature be chaynged yet they continew in the propertee of theyr nature for al that and in nothing els as the trewth is they do not in deede Agayne of the other syde when it is hearde that the propertee of nature in any thynge doeth holde and contynew it is thought streyght way that the substaunce and nature of the thynge doeth also contynew likewise Wherefore that same thought dyd Saynt Ambrose purpose to helpe when and where he doeth say that Thorow benediction the nature is chaynged And thorow the consecration ther 〈◊〉 made of the breade the fleshe of Christe And thorow the operation of Christes wordes there is made of the wyne and water the bloud whyche redemed the people And as our Lorde Iesus Chryste is the very sonne of God so it is very fleshe as he sayth him selfe whiche we receaue Here thou mayst playnlie perceyue according to the agrement of these two doctours how the one defendeth the other For who so euer wolde take and gather of S. Ambrose that there doeth not remayne the naturall propertee of breade and wyne because he speaketh so playne of the alteration and chaynge of the substance or nature therof Gelasius doeth directly for hym answer and say they contynew in the popertee of theyr nature That is to say the propertee of theyr nature doeth contynew styll althoughe the substance or nature it selfe be chaynged And who so euer wolde for this sayinge take and gather of Gelasius as Fryth doth that there remayneth the very substance or nature of breade and wyne styll because he speaketh so playne of the continewance of the naturall propertee thereof Saynt Ambrose doeth in that behalfe directlie answer and say that Thorow benediction the nature is chaynged And by consecration there is made of the breade the fleshe of Christ and so foorth Wherfore by thys it doeth moste clerely appere that Frithe was not deceaued in that he sayeth these faythfull fathers dyssented not one from an other but well and trewlie agreed together But how therefore doeth he agree with him selfe in this that he so sayeth and yet aloweth not so muche the sayinge of the one as he dooeth vtterlye deny the sayinge of the other when dyrectelie agaynst Saynt Ambrose he doeth say there remayneth the substaunce and nature of bread and wyne Who can be more agaynst hym then he is herein agaynst hym selfe He holdeth wyth the saying of Gelasius but not with the saying of Saynt Ambrose And yet doeth holde that they dissent not one from an other Haste thou hearde of any man that euer framed hys thynges together after this sorte HER. Why say you that he holdeth not with Saynt ambrose If he helde not with hym he wolde not alledge him so often as he doeth CATHOLI Thou sayest well For euen so he holdeth wyth Saynt Ambrose as he doeth for all hys sayinge wyth Gelasius That is to say wyth none of them boeth For it is two thinges for hym to holde with them and to holde wyth his owne false vnderstandinge of them as he thou and manie other doeth For yf he sought in them anie thinge els but that he wolde not as he did pyke out onlie suche places as be to the simple reader darke and obscure but wolde haue set foorthe as well suche other places as are cleare and out of all question and not omitte