the Arians did agree with the Christen menne in theim bothe as in all Sacramentes and in all poinctes of praiyng sauing that the Arians did sing Gloria patri in filio and the Christian menne Gloria patri filio c. And therfore and for that onely poinct Ihō Chrysostome then beyng Bishop of Constantinople did appoincte vnto the christian men a seperate place and maner of praier from them as it appeareth in the sixth of the Historie Ecclesiastike And therefore the notable doctour S. Augustine doth conclude on thys wise saiyng that they shall not communicate in Sacramētes with vs whose doctrine we cannot approue and allowe The aunswere Your third consideration standeth vppon a foolishe fallation of Sophistrie called petitio principij whiche is whē a man will take that as true whiche his aduersarie will not graunte hym As you doe in this your argument where you take that for a true principle whiche you shall neuer be able to proue namely that we are Heretikes and Schismatikes And so you committe double folie Firste in prouyng that so diligentely whiche no manne will deny whiche is that a manne ought not to communicate in religion with Heretikes and secondly in bringing no proofe at all of that which all your aduersaries wil deny namely that thei are Heretikes or Schismatikes For you must first prooue that thei are suche before you can proue that you ought to auoide their societie The Papiste The fowerth consideration is that the receiuyng of this new booke of seruice is a condemnation of the olde wherby is taken away 5. of the. 7. Sacramentes the reall presence of Christes body in the Sacramente of the alter the sacrifice of the masse many traditions of the Apostles as the holiyng of the Fonte oile and Chrisma in Baptisme and Confirmation the making of the signe of the Crosse praiers for the deade and vnto sainctes All sacramentall and godly cerimonies frequented in the vniuersal churche of Christe and brougt into this realme with the faithe of Christe by S. Augustine and here by hym established as suer signes and tokens of christian faieth like as the holy S. Bede witnesseth in his firste boke de gestis Anglorum in the 25.29.30 chapiters beside that all the foresaide thinges haue been alwaie approued vsed and allowed throughout the vniuersal church of christ And therfore saieth S. Augustine all these thinges whiche haue been receiued in the vniuersall Churche of Christe and approued by the vse and consente therof ought not to be ouerthrowen nor yet to be chaūged by the iudgemente of one priuate person be his learnyng and liuyng neuer so good nor yet by the Bishoppes of any one prouince or countrie when thereby they shoulde breake the vnitie of Gods spirite whiche is the chief treasure in his Churche commended by our sauiour Christe vnto his Apostles wishynge and praiynge the same vnitie to be amongest theim whiche was betwixt him and God Ioan 17 the father The Apostle S. Paule tought the Corinthians aboue all thinges to obserue this vnitie and willed the Romaines that with one minde and one mouth they shoulde glorifie god And in the Epistle to the Ephesians he besought theim most entirely to obserue this vnitie Again S. Augustine saieth these thinges whiche the vniuersall churche doth teache therfore are to be obserued and kepte of all menne because the churche which is the spouse of Christ hath the full aucthoritie of her husband Christ and suche gouernement also of the holy ghost that she cannot consent but to true thinges nor she cannot commaunde but onely suche thinges whiche are both holy holsome and good And farther the same S. Augustine saieth that in the ministratiō of the Sacramentes and in the manner of praiyng vsed of Preestes there must be an vniformitie obserued in Christes catholike Churche that by their Lawe and maner of praiyng there may be established the lawe of beleuyng And lest that the lawe and maner of praiyng being chaunged may also bring foorthe a chaunge and alteration of faieth like as it hath so proued in thys realme Beside that S. Ambrose doth thinke that there can not bee the faieth where Schisme is for albeit that schismatikes may haue faieth towardes God yet they cannot haue faieth towarde the Churche of God whom they suffer to bee dismembred and discerped in peeces For wheras our sauiour Christe suffered for his Churche and the Churche is the mysticall bodie of Christe how therfore may thei haue faith in christ by whom his Passion is made frustrate and his mysticall bodie drawen in peeces And therefore woulde not we shoulde chaunge an order set or a custome of Christes churche For albeit saieth he the reason or cause of a custome may be sought for yet must it be so sought for that the custome thereby be not infirmed or broken for the searche may not bee made vnto destruction but vnto aedification wherby thou maist better obserue the custome when thou arte assured of the cause and reason therof I do praise thee saieth Tertuliane whiche firste doeth beleue the custome to be obserued before it hath learned the cause and reason why and wherfore The aunswere In your fowerth consideration you should haue likewise considered that suche thynges as are graunted of bothe partes nede small proofe and that those matters whiche are in controuersie should be substancially cōfirmed As for example How necessarie vnitie is for the Churche of Christe no manne doubteth so it bee in truthe and not in falshed for there is vnitie emong the mooste wicked but not in truthe and honestie On the other side that there be fiue sacramentes more then the boke alloweth that there is a carnall presence in the Sacrament of the Lordes bodie and bloude that there is or ought to be a Sacrifice in the masse ye bring not one worde of proof Concernyng Ceremonies whiche you call traditions of the Apostles you saie in deede a little although to little purpose and yet so confusely and out of all good order that you seme rather to confounde then to instructe your simple reader for what an hochpotte is this in the middes of your Sacramentes and Sacramentalles to choppe in praiers for the deade and inuocation of sainctes whiche bée articles of doctrine and not Ceremoniall obseruations Againe when you haue rehersed by name diuers Ceremonies as oile and chrisme in Baptisme your maner of confirmation the signe of the Crosse and all other your Sacramentalls and Ceremonies you bryng in certain broken and vnperfecte sentences of Doctours whiche speake generally of Ceremonies vsed in the churche in their age and doe not shew that your Ceremonies were vsed then in suche maner as you vse them now which is a meere mockerie of your readers For wheras you doe comprehende thē all vnder the name of Traditions of the Apostles if you be a man of suche learning as you would seme to be I dare saie in your behalfe you will bee ashamed to come to triall of this poincte that
is your blasphemous doctrine that me doe moste abhorre and your Ceremonies we hate the more for your doctrines sake You should therefore stande to the defence of your doctrine and not fight so egerly for your Ceremonies if you would vse good pollicie Nowe for these obseruations I haue aunswered before sufficiently by whiche as by the reste of myne answeres I truste it shall appeere to euery manne of indifferente iudgemente that notwithstandyng all your twentie argumentes of bothe sortes our Churche hath suche conformitie and agremente with the primitiue Churche of Christe that she maie bee truely compted a member of the same and partaker in the communion of all the sainctes of God. The Papiste Of what force streingth and estimatiō those thinges are of whiche haue been vsed in christes catholike churche it shal appeare by these testimonies of sainct Augustine followyng The aunswere Before you had spoken of the force of those matters you should haue doen well to haue considered the force of your argumentes whiche howe stronge so euer those thinges bee are to weake to proue that whiche you propounde namely that our Churche hath none agreaunce at all with the Primitiue Churche of Christe But seyng you will needes sette for the dignitie of these matters wee will seuerally consider all these fower argumentes The Papiste Firste sainct Augustine writyng againste the Donatistes saieth looke what thinges the vniuersall church of christe obserue and hath at all tymes obserued if the same bee not ordeined by any generall counsell thē it ought most firmely to be beleued that it came to vs onely by the auctoritie and tradition of the Apostles The aunswere Although I knowe what to thinke of vnwritten Traditions yet if you bee able to proue that al these thinges wherof you speake the vniuersall Churche of Christ doeth and hath alwaies obserued I will yelde to you that thei are the Tradition of the Apostles accordyng to your testimonie whiche if you canne not doe as I am well assured you will neuer bee able to dooe it by your owne reason and aucthoritie we neede not holde theim for Traditions of the Apostles nor yet decrees of generall Counsailes The Papiste Second sainct Augustine in hys Epistle ad Casulanum saieth how in all these thinges whereof the Scriptures hath made no certeine determination the maner of the people of god ▪ or decrees of our elders must be taken and holden as a lawe to gouerne our selues and in the same Epistle he maketh mention how the Sondaie because it is not fasted whiche fastyng is a Sacrifice acceptable to God ▪ Therefore saieth he the Sondaie maie not bee celebrated and kepte without an other Sacrifice whiche is acceptable to God. The aunswere The Scripture hath determined of all necessarie articles of faithe and againste all superstitious opinions and Ceremonies And these thynges you speake of we proued to bee suche therefore in theim by Saincte Augustines rule neither the custome of people nor the decrees of elders muste take place but the aucthoritie of Goddes woorde But of suche thynges as bee variable Ceremonies for edification order and comelinesse sake diuers particuler Churches maie make particuler decrees whiche are nothyng preiuditiall to the vniuersall Churche of Christ whiche is the principall argumente that saincte Augustine handeleth in that 86. Epistle to Casulanus where he defendeth the custome of the moste parte of the Churche againste the custome of the Churche of Rome As I haue touched before whiche thyng of you will in no wise bee allowed And as concernyng the Sacrifice he speaketh of to bee celebrated on Sondaie he meaneth not the propiciatorie Sacrifice of the Masse as perhaps you would seme to inferre But the celebration of the communion for thus he writeth in the same Epistle against Vrbicus Dicit cessisse pani pecus tanquam nesciens tunc in domini mensa panes propositionis poni solere nunc se de agni immaculati corpore partem sumere dicit cessisse poculo sanguinem nō cogitans etiam nunc se accipere in poculo sanguinem He saith that the Shepe hath giuen place to the breade as though he were ignoraunt that then also the Shewbread was vsed to bée sette on the Lordes boarde and that now also he taketh parte of the bodie of the immaculate Lambe he saieth that bloodde hath giuen place to the Cuppe not consideryng that now also he receiueth bloode in the Cuppe These woordes declare bothe that the Sacrifice was nothyng but the Communion and also that the wine is none otherwise called bloodde then the bread is called a lambe and that the bread in nature and substaunce is suche as was the Shewbreade in whiche was no transubstantiation and thirdely the necessitie of the Communion in both kindes if this analogie of Augustine must stande wherfore sainct Augustine in this Epistle maketh little for your purpose The Papiste Thirde saincte Augustine in his thirde Epistle ad Ianuarium saieth that the thinges whiche we doe obserue throughout the whole worlde beyng not written but deliuered vnto vs either from the Apostles or generall counselles the aucthoritie wherof is notable and as of theim receiued ought to be obserued as the yerely remembrance and feastes of the passion of Christe of his ascention into heauen and of the cōmyng of the holy ghost whiche are celebrate in the Churche of Christe or any other like thing whiche is vniuersally obserued from whatsoeuer it first came fro and therefore saieth sainct Augustine in the same Epistle to reason or dispute why the same thinge ought to be obserued whiche of long tyme hath been obserued throughout the whole world by the auctoritie of christes church insolentissima insania est it is a poincte saieth he of extreme madnes And therfore saieth saincte Aug. the chaunge made of so long a custome yea though the same shoulde be verie profitable yet by the newnes thereof it doeth vexe and trouble the Churche of Christe it is made vnprofitable vnfruictful and finally hurtfull to the church of christ and for an example therof he doth there alledge how the disciples of christ did receiue the body and blood of christe not fastinge but after supper is the vniuersall church of christe therefore to be reproued or the custome therof to be chaunged whereby wee do in the same receiue the body and blood of christe fastyng and that for a more reuerence therunto in preferryng the foode of the soule before the foode of the bodie doubtles so for to doe it shoulde bee after the minde of Augustine both hurtfull vnto the churche of christ and a greate ponct of madnesse The aunswere This testimonie in effecte is the same with the former Sainct Augustin would haue suche Traditions as haue alwaies been vsed in the Churche to bee supposed that either thei came from the Apostles or from the generell Counsailes but here wee haue diligently to consider that wée admitte not all suche thynges as are called Traditions but onely suche as are
abroade of Christe to preache and woorke miracles vsed by the same ceremonie to heale many that were sick But now whē the gifte of healyng continueth not in the Churche it were a verie ridiculous thyng to vse that Ceremonie And as for your extreme vnction by no meanes can be accompted that vsage of the Apostles for you anoint none almost but suche as are past hope of recouerie so farre you are frō restoring any to healthe by your beggerly ceremonie The Papiste Eight in the Primitiue churche we dooe reade in the nintinth chapiter of the actes of the Apostles how vpon a certain plague there made vpon seuen bretheren the sonnes of one Sceba by a man that was possessed with the Diuelle many of the people whiche did beleue in Iesus Christe theruppon came and made vpen confession of their sinnes and made declaration of their priuate actes and dedes whiche the reformatour of this our Englishe Churche will none of by the deniall of Sacramente of penance and all the partes therof The Aunswere It is straunge to see vnto how narrow shiftes you are driuen to make vp a number of argumentes Haue you nothing but open confession to proue your priuate and auriculer confessiōs God be thanked ther are many also in our churche that make open confession and declaration of their former life led in blindenes and superstition of their falling in time of persecutiō and other like offences but what is this to your popishe Sacramente of auricular cōfession or what likelihode hath it with the same Firste the faithfull bringyng forthe certeine examples of their actions acknowledge how they were seduced by the deuill before they embraced the faith the popes law compelleth men to reherse all their deedes wordes and thoughtes These men made their cōfession once the popes law requireth eche man to confesse euery yere once at least these came forth to this confession of their owne accorde the pope compelleth all men vppon necessitie of saluation Againe the text saieth that many came but not all the popes lawe excepteth none these Ephesians made open confessiō before al the church as you your selfe acknowledge the pope commaundeth euery man to whisper his confession into a préestes eare Let al men iudge what agrement this their confession hath with your auricular confession And wheras you saie we deny the Sacrament of penaunce and all the partes therof The truth is we preache repentance as we are commaunded by the woorde of God but no Sacrament of penance dooe wee finde in the Scripture what you meane by the partes of penance I cannot well tell but if it be those three that bee commonly sette forthe in writers of your dunsical diuinitie contrition of harte confession of mouth and satisfactiō of worke you shall here what wée thinke of theim Thei are suche as a verie limme of the Deuill maie performe and yet goe to the Deuill when he hath dooen Example in Iudas Iscarioth who hadde contrition of harte as the Scripture teacheth when he was sorie for his facte And he made confession of mouthe to the priestes when he saied I haue synned in betraiyng of innocente bloode Finally he made satisfaction of woorke when he restored the thirtie siluerlynges whiche he receiued for his treason And when he had so dooen wente and hanged hym self in despaire You see that Iudas lacked none of youre three partes of penaunce but he lacked faithe without the whiche all contrition confession and outward satisfaction is nothyng auailable And therefore you teach a verie wholsome kinde of penaunce in whiche faithe in the bloode of Christe is no parte at all Neither is it necessarely required thereto by your owne doctrine For Sacramentes you teach giue grace ex opere operato that is of the woorke wroughte so a manne dooeth not withstande the receiuyng of them whiche you call ponere obicem And therefore penaunce beyng one of your Sacramentes and absolution of sinnes maie be receiued without faithe in the merites of christ Therfore kepe your penaunce for your frendes we can not skill of suche Sacramentes The Papiste Ninth the order and maner of the Primitiue churche was to celebrate the Sacramente of christes bodie after supper as it apeareth both by the example geuen therof by our sauiour Christe and by the testimonies of the Apostle sainct Paule which they doe not obserue nor followe The aunswere You are not able to proue that any suche order was established in the primitiue Churche that the Sacrament of the bodie and bloode of Christe should bée receiued after Supper Although it was by our Sauiour institited after his laste Supper Not appoinctyng any tyme in whiche it ought of necessitie to bee receiued no more then the Sacrament of Baptisme is bounde either to Mornyng or Euenyng daie or night or to any tyme of the daie in whiche it was firste ordeined And whereas you alledge the aucthoritie of saincte Paule for your purpose you doe hym greate wronge for he reproueth the Corinthians for confoundyng drunken and prophane bankettes with the holie Sacrament of the Lordes Supper i. Cor. xj And as for the tyme place and other like circumstances perteinyng to the ministration of the Sacramentes thei are in the discretiō of the churche to appoinct as thei maie beste serue for order comelinesse and edification But ouer the substaunce of the Sacramentes the Churche hath no power as to take the cuppe from the laie people whiche none but the churche of Antichrist would presume to doe The Papiste Tenth in the Primitiue Churche it was decreed by a solemne law holden by the Apostles of Christe at Hierusalem that the christen men men shoulde absteine à sanguine suffocato from blood and all suffocate thinges whiche our reformatours performe not nor will admit any fasting from meates and drinkes at all by the whiche testimonies and proues gathered out of the diuine scriptures howe plaine a matter it is that they purpose not in their reformation to reduce vs to the Primitiue Churche of Christe when therewith besides they haue no agreaunce they doe all thinges cleane to the contrary like as ye haue partlie hearde by profes made therfore out of the diuine scriptures and shal heareafter more at large by the writinges and testimonies of the moste best learned and grauest fathers that euer were in Christes Churche The aunswere The Apostles in that Counsaile made not a perpetuall lawe to binde any mannes conscience but onely a temporall decree to auoide offence of the weake Iewes who were accustomed to abstaine from suche thinges and this decree as occasion serued was broken and altered But where you saie wee can admitte no fastyng from meates and drinkes at all You shall vnderstande that we compte it no fastyng to abstaine from one kinde of meate and to fille your beallie with an other kinde as to refraine fleshe and to glutte your stomack with fishe Or as the Maniches abstained from liuyng creatures and riotted in fruictes spices and delicate
Basile affirmeth that it was a tradition of the Apostles that who so euer did not so he shoulde be deposed therfore wheras our reformatours doe but sprincle a little water in the foreheade of the partie baptized it may be quickly espied that thei follow not the primitiue churche The aunswere Our sauiour Christ commaundeth vs to Baptise in the name of the Father and of the Soonne and of the holie Ghoste whiche whether it bée by dippyng the bodie into the water or by powryng water vpon the bodie the misticall signification of washyng is sufficiently expressed and so longe the Baptisme is right as for the nōber of dippinges is nothyng materiall We read in the scriptures diuers formes of washing The Eunuche was Baptised by Philip goyng in naked into a Riuer or Brooke And so Baptised Ihon in Iordan Other that were Baptised in their houses it is moste like that water was powred on them as Cornelius and them that were with hym And the keper of the prison with his housholde Actes xvj And as for the Ceremonie of thrise dippyng although it was vsed of many to signifie the Trinitie yet was it not generall nor of any necessitie For in the fowerth Counsaile of Toledo it was determined that all was one whether a childe were Baptized with three dippynges or with one alone And yet it was there decreed vpon a good consideration that in Spaine thei should vse but one dippyng The woordes are these in the fowerth Counsaile Toletane and the fiueth Canone Ne tamen haereticis videamur consentire qui tertio mergum dum eorum morem seruamus cautum est ne in Hispaenia fiat baptismus nisi in vna mersione that is to saie Least we should seme to agree with heretikes whiche vse to dippe thrise while wee reteine their maner of baptisyng it is decreed that no Baptisme in Spaine bee ministered but with one onely dippyng In this decree of the Coūsaile twoo thynges especially are to bee noted Firste that the three dippynges was not alwaies and in all places obserued as a necessarie matter and therefore your argumente is fallen to the grounde Secondely that it is profitable to alter and chaunge suche Ceremoeies as are vsed of heretikes that wee seme not to agree with theim in any thyng in whiche it is lawful for vs to disagree And for this consideration doe we refuse to dip thrise because we would not seme to agrée with you whiche are heretikes although wee acknowledge that of it self it is a thyng indifferente to dippe twise or thrise or ones or not at al to dip but onely to poure on water in signe of that spirituall ablution whiche is represented by that Sacramente of Baptisme Wherefore you haue a verie quicke sight that can espie a knotte in a Rushe and of so small a gnat to make so great an Elephante as though all Christianitie stoode in thrise dippyng of a child in Baptisme whiche I haue proued not onely not to haue been alwaies obserued but also by decree of a Counsaill to haue been expressely forbidden Which Ceremonie although it bee noumbred emong the canons commonly called of the Apostles yet hath he a meane iudgement in antiquitie that can not descerne theim from Apostolike writynges But because you bryng in the Tradition of the Apostles you muste nedes giue me leaue to presse you with the same aucthoritie and to shewe that you your self obserue not the Traditions of the Apostles In the vj. Canon of the Apostles it is commaunded that no Bishoppe Prieste nor Deacon shall put awaie his wife vnder colour of religion and thei that doe so shall be excomunicate And in the ninthe and tenthe Canons it is decreed that whosoeuer is presente at the Communion and dooeth not communicate that he should bee excommunicate How these Canons of the Apostles if you will needes haue them so called be obserued in your Popishe Clergie and your priuate Masse what nede I to rehearse And yet you agree with the primitiue Churche in all thynges and we haue none agreaunce therewith at all The Papiste Thirde in the Primitiue churche they vsed Oyle and Chrisma in the ministratiō of diuers Sacramentes which christ hymselfe did ordaine and sainctifie the night before his passion as witnesseth S. Cypriane And his Apostles did commende the same vnto the Churche by their traditions as witnesseth sainct Basile and S. Augustine whiche these our reformatours will none of The aunswere In the Primitiue Churche there was not so many diuerse Sacramentes as you speake of but onely the Sacramente of Baptisme and of the bodie and bloode of christe and in neither of these was there any institution or vsage of oile chrisme And although in the later tyme ceremonies increased that oyle was vsed in baptisme yet was there not so many Sacramentes for Augustine saieth vnto Ianuaerius Epis. 118. Vnde Sacramentis numero paucissimis obseruatione facillimis significatione praestantissimis ▪ societatem noui populi colligauit sicut est Baptismus Trinitatis nomine consecratus communicatio corporis Christi sanguinis ipsius si quid aliud in scripturis canonicis cōmendatur Wherfore saieth Augustine God hath bounde the societie of his newe people with Sacramentes in number fewest in obseruation easiest in significatiō most excellent as is baptisme consecrated in the name of the Trinitie the communion of the bodie and blood of Christe and if any thing els be commended in the Canonicall scriptures The same Augustine and Chrisostome also vpon the water and blood that issued out of Christes side do gather that the Sacramentes of the church flowed out of his side namely Baptisme and the Supper of the lord Aug. Hom. in Ioann 20. Chrysostom ad Neophytos Augustine also in the thirde booke de doctrina christiana Cap. 9. rehearseth but these twoo Sacramentes speakyng of those that are properly called Sacramentes for otherwise both he and other auncient writers extende the name of Sacrament to al ceremonies And yet Gregorie accompteth washyng of feete to be a Sacramente as Baptisme and the Supper whiche is no sacramente with you And as for the ceremonie of annointyng in baptisme it is as lawfull for vs to abrogate as for you to omitte the drinke of milke and Honie after baptisme other such ceremonies which you knowe were vsed as well as oyle and Chrisme But our Sauiour Christe the night before his Passion did ordeine and sanctifie Oyle and Chrisme for suche purposes I meruaile what Cipriane dare be so bolde to affirme it séeyng the Euangelistes make no mention thereof and here againe if you hadde noted the place of Cipriane wee might better haue considered of his aucthoritie Diuerse writinges are set forth in his name whiche were neuer any of his workes The Papiste Fowerth S. Basile saieth that all determiminations and instructions which are preached and kepte in the Primitiue churche of Christe we haue receiued theim partely of the scriptures and partly by the traditions of the Apostles whiche both hath
nothyng to dooe with a Sacrifice by those woordes it is easie to proue that you can offer vp no Sacrifice in the celebration of the Sacramente For by this woorde of Christe dooe this you can dooe no more but that whiche Christe then did But Christe did then offer no Sacrifice of his bodie therefore you can offer no Sacrifice of his bodie That Christe did then offer no Sacrifice of his bodie is manifeste by the Apostle to the Hebrues whiche often tymes testifieth that he offered hym self but ones whiche was on the Crosse Chapit vij ix x. therefore he did not offer hym self on the table at his supper as you moste falsely surmise The Papiste Fifte it dooeth denie the Sacramentes of christes churche The aunswere Wee receiue the Sacramente of Baptisme and of the Lordes Supper which onely wee finde in the scripture the other fiue whiche you call Sacramentes because we finde theim not in the scripture instituted of Christe in the nature of Sacramentes we dooe not receiue theim as Sacramentes Matrimonie Confirmation election of Ecclesiasticall ministers with their aucthoritie as wee finde theim by the woorde of God so wee retaine the pure institution of theim refusyng the corruption and superstition builded vpon them by Antichriste Extreme vnction is an idle Ceremonie and nothyng pertainyng to our tyme as I haue declared before for that cause is iustely abrogated The Papiste Sixte it doth denie the real presence of christes bodie and blood in the holy Eucharist The aunswere Wée dooe not denie the reall presence of Christes bodie to the faithe of him that receiueth worthely But the carnall and grosse immagination of transubstanciation whiche is contrary to the scriptures whiche teacheth that the bodie of christe is like vnto our bodies in all thynges synne excepted and therefore can not bee in diuerse places at one tyme and is also contrary to the doctrine openly taught in the Churche for seuen or eight hundreth yeres after Christe For Bertramus did write his treatise as some thinke to Carolus Caluus whiche liued eight hundreth yeres after Christe The Papiste Seuenth it dooeth denie that Christes Churche is visible or possible heare to bee knowen The aunswere We denie that the Churche of Christ is visible to the worlde at all tymes because our sauiour Christ prophecieth that the moste parte of the worlde should bee deceiued by false Prophetes Math. xxiiij and S. Paule prophesieth of the generall apostasie that should bee made by Antichriste Sainct Ihon also in the Reuelation sheweth that the Churche should flie into the wildernesse and all the worlde should worshippe Antichriste Apoca. xij and. xiij Wherefore the Churche is not alwaies in sight of the worlde although it bee sometyme deliuered from suche extreme persecution as it is God bee thanked at this tyme. The Papiste Eight it doeth denie the free choise and will of man. The aunswere Wée affirme that Adam by his falle loste the fredome of his will bothe in him self and from his posteritie So that a mā hath nowe no freedome of will so muche as to thinke a good thoughte ij Corin. iij. much lesse to do we any good of our selues Whiche seeyng it is the iuste iudgemente of God vpon Adam and his posteritie for synne we make not God aucthour of euil as prophane dogges doe barke against vs or rather against God but iuste in all his iudgementes and holie in all his waies But of free wille I shall haue occasion to speake more hereafter toward the latter ende of your discourse The Papiste Ninth it dooeth denie our iustification by penance by Baptisme by hope by charitie and good workes The aunswere Wée affirme with saincte Paule that a manne is iustified before God by faithe without the deedes of the lawe Rom. iij. not that deade faithe whiche saincte Iames speaketh of but a liuely and fruictefull faithe that woorketh by loue But of iustification I muste speake more hereafter The Papiste Tenth it dooeth denie the merites of all good workes Gods promises made to the contrarie notwithstandyng The aunswere Wee affirme that all good woorkes shall be rewarded by God for his promise sake but neither for worthines of them nor for the worthines of vs For the worthinesse of theim deserueth nothyng because thei are vnperfecte And our worthinesse in doyng theim dooeth merite nothyng because thei proceade of God and not of vs and secondly because our synnes are many more in noumber then our good deedes And when we haue dooen all that wee are bidden wee are vnprofitable seruauntes Luke the. xvij therefore wee deserue nothyng by theim but that GOD of his infinite mercie vouchsaueth for his promise sake in Christe to accepte them and reward them The Papiste Eleuenth it doeth denie fastyng from any one kinde of meate more then an other or vpon this daie more then an other The aunswere To teache men to abstaine from meates and marriage is the doctrine of Deuilles j. Timo. iiij Otherwise true faste we deny not but affirme and commende as hath been declared ones or twise before The Papiste Twelft it doeth denie tyme and daies of watches and praiers The aunswere We deny the superstitious obseruation of daies and tymes but wee affirme allowe and vse certaine daies and tymes appoicted for praier and godlie exercises By watches if you meane your vigiles of sainctes daies you your selues vse onely the name and not the obseruatiō of those watches Whiche although thei were vsed of olde in the Churche yet for diuers inconueniences thei were lefte of and by decree of the Counsaile Elibertinū abrogated Can. 35. The Papiste Thirtene it doeth denie the obseruation of holy and solemne promises and vowes made vnto God. The aunswere We doe not denie the obseruations of any lawfull promises made vnto GOD that are possible to bee kepte of those that make theim But wee teache menne not to bee rashe in makyng promises before thei bee sure that thei are able to performe them And if thei haue made a rash or vnaduised vowe as to abstaine from Marriage whiche thei are not able to obserue but by committyng fornication and vncleannesse wee counsaile theim to repente of their rashenesse and to retourne to the ordinaunce of GOD whiche is the remeadie of incontinence rather then to leade an abhominable life in filthinesse The Papiste Fowertene it dooeth denie the chaste life apertainyng to the order of Priesthode The aunswere We affirme that chaste life appertaineth to all menne and especially to Ecclesiasticall ministers But we do not compt marriage an vnchaste life as you doe but holie and honourable in all menne and the marriage bedde to be vndefiled Hebr. xiij And seeyng that the holie ghoste by sainct Paule in his Epistles to Timothe and Titus describyng the beste qualities required in Bishoppes and Deacons allowed marriage wee dare not presume to disalowe it or to forbidde any man from it leaste wee should teache the doctrine of Deuilles as you doe The Papiste Fiftene ie doth deny the inuocation and
néedes thruste in so long a tale and the same to dilate with all the circumstaunces whereas you had no leasure to note the places of your Doctours that ye alledge in good earneste But now sir sauyng your tale and to applie it to the purpose If maister Molande as he rehersed some faultes of whiche perhappes his horse was free so he had recited all the faultes that maie be in any horse and denied theim all to bee in his horse might not Clare the Butcher haue boughte a good horse of him by negatiues But maister Molande like a subtile Sophister repeateth a many of his defaultes and suppresseth as many or more and so he begileth poore Clare the Butcher And this Sophistrie of maister Molande is youre Logike throughout all your treatise of a fewe particulars to inferre an vniuersal And this your Iade belike you thoughte to sell vnto some as simple as Clare the Butcher that could no more discerne of your diuinitie then Clare the Butcher could sée of maister Molandes Sophistrie Or els if you mente good faithe as you do pretende I must nedes saie to quitte your tale that if Clare wer not a better Butcher then you shewe your self to be a Logicien or diuine you might bothe procede in one facultie and maister Molande bee your presenter For as he solde his horse by negatiues so you haue proued that all our Religion standeth wholie vppon negatiues that we denie all thinges and affirme nothyng The Papiste Dewe obiections made againste the premisses For wheras ye haue saiede the religion of this newe reformed Churche to stande wholy by negatiues in affirmynge no one thyng more then was before vsed in the Catholike churche of Christe howe vntrue this is who seeth not when the religion of this newe reformed Church doth affirme and hath brought in many thinges as good godly and lawfull whiche before were straightly denied The aunswere It must néedes be a clerkely disputatiō wher you maie be both opponent respōdent your self wher you maie make argumētes for vs and make answere for your self But as he that aunswereth if he gett the victorie ouerthroweth him that opposeth so you taking vpon you to oppose and aunswere your self you can ouerthrowe none other but your owne self But neuer a one of these fiue obiections is holden of vs in maner and forme as it is propounded of you And therfore I would desire you henceforwarde to defende youre owne matters aswell as you can for you shall gette neither money nor thankes to plaie the Proctor for vs. The Papiste Firste it dooeth affirme that it is lawfull and bothe good and godly that Priestes shoulde take wiues and beyng firste made Priestes it is lawfull to marie The aunswere We affirme that it is vnlawfull that any manne should bee bounde to sole life whiche hath not the gifte of continence And that marriage is as honourable in ecclesiasticall ministers as in al other men whether thei were married before thei were called to that office or to whether thei marrie afterwarde Hebre. xiij j. Timoth. iij. and Tite j. The Papiste Seconde it dooeth affirme that Freers Monkes and Nonnes after their vowes made solemnely vnto God of their chaste and cōtinent life that it is lawful for theim to mary together and holde the same to be good and lawfull wedlocke The aunswere Wee affirme that who soeuer hath made a rashe and vnaduised vowe of continence whiche he is not able to keepe ought to repente him of his rashenes and rather to marrie then to burne j. Cor. 7. The Papiste Thirde it doeth affirme that a man beyng deuorced from his wise for fornicatiō may therupon marie againe and take another and so it is lawfull for hym to haue twoo wiues a liue the one in the bedde the other diuorced The aunswere Wee affirme that thei whiche are lawfully deuorced for adulterie are no more housebande and wife For the knot of marriage by lawfull deuorsemente is cleane dissolued and therefore a manne so deuorsed maie marrie and not haue twoo wiues at ones accordyng to the doctrine and right vnderstandyng of our Sauiour Christes wordes Math. v. and xix The Papiste Fowerth it doeth affirme Breade ad wine to bee the whole substaunce of the Eucharistie after the consecration The aunswere Wee affirme accordyng to the scriptures and faithe of the Churche for a thousande yeres after Christe that breade and wine remaine in the Sacrament and are necessarie there to remaine that it maie bée a Sacramente for the woorde muste come to the Elemente and so make it a Sacrament But we doe not affirme that breade and wine is the whole substaunce of the Sacrament but the bodie and blood of Christe receiued by faithe is the principall parte thereof as in Baptisme the outward Element is water but the principall part thereof is the pourgyng of our sinnes by the secrete and wōderfull workyng of the holie ghoste the Papiste Fifte it doth affirme that onely faieth iustifieth and that faieth alone is sufficient to procure and purchase for vs gods grace and mercie for the time of this present life and at the ende and terme therof life euerlastyng Beside many other like diuerse thinges that the religion of this newe reformed churche doth affirme as thinges lawfull and haue brought theim into this realme as thinges good and godly The aunswere Wee affirme that the free mercie of God in Christ is the efficient cause of our iustification whiche mercie we apprehēde by none other hande or instrumente but by faithe But that either faithe dooeth procure or purchase Gods grace or mercie by any whorthinesse of it wee vtterly denie as also that onely faithe is sufficiēte for a christian man when we teache that this faith by which we are iustified is not a solitarie faith but of necessitie accompanied with many vertues good workes although by receiuyng Goddes mercie no workes but onely faithe doeth iustifie vs. The Papiste An answere against the obiections For aunswere beside that there is no one of their affirmatiōs now by theim brought that maketh any thing ad cultum diuinum to the seruice and honouryng of god wherin true religion doth consiste as it is before proued by the diffinition therof geuen by Augustine al their affirmations doe include some negatiōs of a farre more better thing then is brought in by their affirmations The aunswere But euen nowe in the latter ende of the firste obiection you confesse that wee affirme many other thynges beside these fiue whiche you haue rehersed And now as though we had no other affirmations you conclude as your maner is that no one of our affirmatiōs maketh any thyng ad cultum diuinum to gods seruice and that all our affirmations doe include a negation of a farre better thing then is brought in by them So that when wee affirme all the articles of the Crede none of theim perteineth to Goddes seruice but rather include a negation of a farre better thing When we affirme
that Christe onely is the heade of his vniuersall Churche wee doe it not to the honour of Christ but wée include the negation of a farre better thing that is the supremacie of the Pope Whiche by your assertion is a farre more better thyng then the supremacie of christ So when we affirme that onely the scripture must bee the rule of true Religion it maketh nothyng for Religion to worshippe God as he hath commaunded but it includeth a negation of vnwritten verities whiche are farre more better thinges then the scripture When we affirme that we must put our trust in God alone we doe no honour to God therby but we denie that men muste put their trust in creatures which by your rule is a farre more better thyng then to putte our truste in God alone When wee affirme that wée must praie to God alone it perteineth nothyng to Gods seruice but includeth the negation of praiyng vnto sainctes whiche is a farre more better thyng then to pray vnto god And when we affirme that the onely Sacrifice of Christes passion is sufficiente for our saluation we yelde no honour to God thereby but denie the Sacrifice of the Masse whiche is a farre better thyng then the Sacrifice of Christes passiō And thus if I had leasure and pleasure as you haue to number examples by tennes and by twenties I might reherse a whole hundreth of the like sorte The Papiste As for example their affirmation that it is lawfull for Priestes to take wiues is a denial of chaste and continent life of priestes whiche as the Apostle sainct Paule saieth is muche farre better The aunswere Wee so affirme marriage of Ecclesiasticall ministers as an honourable and a chaste life neither doe wée denie continēs to those that haue the gifte thereof And whereas you vouche sainct Paule to warantie I aunswere that saincte Paule in no place dooeth require virginitie of Ecclesiasticall persones and wheresoeuer he commendeth it he praiseth it no more in priestes then in laie menne I would all menne were saieth he as I am but euery one hath his proper gifte of God some of one sorte and some of an other j. Cor. vij The Papiste Their affirmation that Freers Monkes and Nonnes maie mary together is a flatte deniyng of the vowe of chastetie which by sainct Paules iudgemente is farre better The aunswere Wée denie not the obseruation of any promises or vowes whiche are lawfull for menne to make and possible for them to performe Neither doeth saincte Paule at any time commende any suche vowes or allowe them to bée kepte but geueth a generall rule that to auoide fornication lett euery manne haue his wife and euery woman her housebande j. Cor. vij And if a virgine marrie she sinneth not so that if you would vnderstande virgines in that place for vowed Nonnes you should manifestely contrary your self that coumpte it so heinous a matter for a Nonne to marrie And as for the widowes whiche as I said before made no vowes to God but promises to the churche if you would needes vnderstande theim for Nonnes Sainct Paule saieth it is better for them that are vnder three score yere old to marie and beare children then to vowe chastitie j. Timo. v. The Papiste Their affirmatiō that the diuorced man maie againe marie is a plaine deniall of reconciliacion whiche ought to bee made againe betwixt man and wife the Apostle saincte Paule geuyng counsell thereof that the womā beyng departed from her housebande shoulde remaine vnmaried to bee reconciled againe vnto her housebande The aunswere Concernyng diuorses if that whiche wee wishe might take place all controuersies should bee cutte of For we wishe that adulterers accordyng to the lawe of God should be punished with death But if the Ciuile Lawe dooeth faile in that poincte the nexte remeadie for the innocente partie is diuorcemente and after deuorcement marriage if he can not liue vnmarried For our sauiour Christ excepteth the case of fornication as well for marriage after deuorcemente as for the diuorcemente it self Math. xix And for amendemente of the partie offendant the Ecclesiasticall sworde of Excommunication muste bee drawne out whiche muste continue so longe vpon the offendour vntill his vnfeigned and hartie repentance doe sufficiently appeare to the Congregation Whiche in that case maie not refuse to receiue him againe The partie then so receiued bothe of god and the church and not beyng able to leade to a continente life is at libertie to marrie also in the Lorde For the firste marriage by the diuorcemente is as clearely dissolued as if it had neuer been And as concernyng the reconciliation sainct Paule speaketh of he meaneth not betwene them that are lawfully diuorced But betwene those that separate them selues without a sufficiente cause whiche is onely fornication Like as our sauiour Christ when he saith that who so marrieth her that is putte awaie committeth adulterie vnderstandeth of her that is vnlawfully putte awaie for any other cause beside fornication in all whiche causes the case of adulterie onely excepted she continueth still wife to hym that did putte her awaie so that he whiche marrieth her marrieth an other mannes wife and so committeth adulterie But she that is diuorsed for adulterie is no mannes wife and therefore he that marrieth her committeth none adulterie The Papiste Their affirmation that breade and wine is the whole substance of the holy Eucharistia is a plaine deniall of Christes very bodie in the same whiche is muche farre better and a thinge of a farre more greater price then breade and wine is So that by their affirmations thei doe nothing better but soner appaire and diminishe the preciousnes of euerie thing they medle with all The aunswere Wée do not so affirme bread and wine in the Sacrament that we denie the presence of the bodie and bloud of Christe to the faithe of the worthie receiuer But that grosse and carnall presence whiche you dooe faigne to bee receiued as well of wicked menne as of Godlie whiche immagination beyng of fleshe without the spirite our Sauiour Christe affirmeth to be altogether vnprofitable For if you did not separate it from the spirite it muste nedes giue life to those that receiue it As Christe hymself affirmeth whosoeuer eateth his fleshe and drinketh his blood hath life euerlastyng Ihon. vj. Againe you feigned presence is vnpossible to the nature of his humaine bodie whiche he hath in al poinctes like to ours sinne excepted Heb. ij and. iiij The Papiste And by their affirmation that onely saieth doth iustifie they doe denie all other thinges els as Baptisme penaunce Confirmation the holy Eucharistia hope charity and generally all kinde of good workes For all learnyng doeth agree of three kindes of Iustifications to be expressed in holy scripture whereof the firste iustication is Qua quis ex impio fit iustus wherby a mā is made of a wicked man and a member of the Deuill a good manne and a verie member of Christe the whiche iustification