in time proue springs of idolatrie and superstition if vtterly and altogether they be not rooted out These are the thoughts of the brainsicke Brownists God forbid they should continue in your mind For what haue wee al-most in and about our publique seruice which hath not serued to some idolatrous and superstitious purpose or other in former daies must all such things therefore vtterly be abolished taken away Is it necessarie they should is it possible they can be remoued But what makes all this for the profe that either our Kneeling is superstitious or the Papists to be strengthned thereby in their Bread-worship and Idolatrie when by reason you cannot proue it if you can by experience S. Since this Kneeling and other things deuised or abused by the Papists haue been so strictly vrged they haue growne exceedingly in number in boldnes affirming that we are now come to sup of their broth and ere it be long we will eate of their meate R. Lamentable experience doth tell vs how the Papists haue but too exceedingly increased the more is the pitie but to ascribe the cause thereof so peremptorily vnto the strict vrging of conformitie and obedience vnto our Churches orders is more then he should doe which is not of the counsell of God I should rather and peraduenture do thinke that the obstinate refusing to Kneele and keepe the customes and maners of our Church doth not only hold backe many papists from ioyning with vs but also cause the number of Recusants to increase For is it likely that they being naturally but too strict precise obseruers of outward ceremonies themselues wil euer brooke that Church and people where wilful and refractarie men either bee not punished at all or but lightly and loosely censured Whefore though we cannot let them to increase which is the iust punishment of God for our abusing the inestimable treasure of his word yet would yet should they lesse abound did either priuate persons yeeld more obedience to the lawfull Iniunctions of authoritie or others being froward and incortigible publique officers more strictly vrge them thereunto And would you which I wish you would by your selfe note consider how these Papists doe laugh in their sleeues to heare of the hot and eager contention that is among vs about this kneeling and such other matters it would make you to weepe and doth cause me to sigh when I think therof as not seldome I doe Away therefore brother S. with this conceit that the strict vrging of conformitie encourageth the Papists this preconceit hath done much hurt and not onely keepeth backe many from concurring with their brethren in due obedience but also encourageth increaseth the dangerous faction of our home Brownists But this you will neuer put away so long as you are of mind which I pray God to alter that this Kneeling of ours was either deuised at the first or abused afterwards by the Papists and that nothing abused though not deuised by them may either be well vsed of inferiors or strictly vrged by the superior power when they are established No Papists I think wil affirm which you say that in Kneeling at the holy Communion we sup of their broth Our Kneeling hath as much resemblance of their adoring as our Communion affinitie with their Masse We sup not of their broth at our Communion no more then they drinke of the Lords cup at their Masse There is as little hope God be thanked that we shall eate of their meate as that they will feed of our Banquets THE SIXT OBIECTION S. IT is a worship of God deuised by man Ergo. Mat. 15. 9. Col. 2. 22. 23. R. So is Sitting so is Standing at the Communion a worshipping of God Howbeit none can truly say of Kneeling at the Lords table that it is a meere deuice of man as Sitting among vs is For it is so an humane as withall it is a diuine institution This gesture is of God because it belongeth vnto religious prayer vnto God and thankesgiuing though appointed by man and from men yet not from the idle sconce of man but from men illuminated by the holy Ghost from men of God S. If you denie it to bee a worship of God I could proue it R. I doe not denie it to be a worshipping or that in kneeling we doe worship God yet how proue you so much S. Thus. It is a bowing of the knee for a religious vse namely to shew our inward reuerence towards Christ whose bodie and blood are represented by bread and wine Ergo. R. Ergo What Ergo no adoration is it or shew of adoration of bread and wine which afore you affirmed say I. S. That is not my meaning but Ergo vnlawfull and not to be done say I. R. Vnlawfull Proue that S. The places of Scripture to that purpose are many R. Cite some of them S. Thou shalt not bowe downe to them nor worship them Exod. 20. 5. R. By this kind of gesture all kind of seruice and worship vnto idoles is forbidden which being so vnlesse you can proue which you shall neuer doe the bread and wine at our Communions to be idoll and also that in kneeling we doe seruice and worship vnto bread and wine you shall neuer make our kneeling at the receiuing of those creatures to be vnlawfull What is the next place of Scripture to this purpose S. It is out of the 95. Psalme where the Psalmist doeth say Come let vs worship and fall downe and kneele before the Lord our maker Psal. 95. 6. R. This maketh for our kneeling but proueth not the same vnlawfull The Papists do say that As often as any man seeeth that body viz. of their Lord and maker at the Masse or borne about to the sicke he shall kneele down deuoutly and say his Pater-noster or some other good prayer in worship of his soueraigne Lord Kneeled we downe when wee take the bread and wine with Popish thoughts and deuotion imagining our Lord and Maker vnder the formes of bread and wine reallie and locallie to be there present we then did against the expresse wordes of the Psalmist who doth exhort vs to worship and fall downe before the Lord our maker and not before the workes of our owne hands but comming thereunto with religious and Christian meditations we worship fall down and kneele before the Lord our maker euen when kneeling we receiue the Sacrament S. Yet will I leaue seuen thousand in Israel euen all the knees that haue not bowed vnto Baal and euery mouth that hath not kissed him saith the Lord. 1. Kings 19. 18. R. Why mention you this place To proue vs who at the Communion doe kneele to be like the Baalites Or why mention you this place To prooue your selues that refuse to kneele to be the seuen thousand pure ones in England free from all contagion of idolatry and superstition If to the former end then iudge you most badly of the whole State as
is abused the blame is to be laid neither vpon the whole Church but vpon some particular professors neither is it an open and publique scandall at least not alwayes nor euery where but an hidden sinne of some fewe hypocrites Schis Loue feasts were either before or after the Supper wheras Kneeling is in the principall part of the holy Communion Pro. Whether these feasts of Loue were celebrated afore or after the holy Communion it is vncertaine and not materiall The most Diuines notwithstanding doe thinke that after but whether afore or after they went together the Loue feasts with the holy Sacrament the Sacrament not without the Loue feasts It is generally held that among the Iewes there was a yerely custom when they did eat their Paschal Lamb to adioine vnto that Sacrament a ceremoniall eating of bread and drinking of wine In imitation of these Iewes and Banquets the first Christians at the administration of the holy Sacrament made feasts called Agaps or banquets of charitie The Iewes for their feasting after the Passeouer had neither the president of Moses nor the precept of God nor the Christians any either president or commandement of Christ for the Loue feasts Those Suppers and feasts of the Iewes notwithstanding were so liked of Christ as he made of those Suppers the Sacrament of his bodie and blood And Christians in the Primitiue Church termed their Agapas their feasts of charitie the Supper of the Lord Sacra conuiuia sacra ecclesiastici coetus conuiuia yea the Supper of the Lord. Who obseruing this but must confesse that God doth not as you Schimatike doe condemne all Rites and Ceremonies about the Sacrament which himselfe hath not instituted and they therefore are much out of the way which condemne euerie thing instituted by man about the worship of God though neuer so orderly established and decent euen for none other cause but for that God hath not expressedly appointed the forme in his holy word Whence our kneeling is so condemned and that the more because it is to bee done in the principall part of the holy Communion But sir if Kneeling bee as it is and you haue truly confessed the most solemne signe of reuerence when I pray you is it better to shew this signe then at the receite of the Sacrament of our redemption by the bodie and blood of Christ signified by bread and wine and the most principall of all outward worship which we can performe vnto God Schis If the Apostle banished Loue feasts from the Lords Supper and brought the Church to the simplicitie of the first institution is it not a tempting sinne to retaine the Idolatrous Kneeling of Papists reiect the exemplarie Sitting of our master Christ Pro. Not too fast It is not granted that the Apostles Loue feasts either because they were of mans institution or by vngodly persons abused vnto sinne were banished Those feasts growing to abuse the Apostle seeketh to amend saith Caluin to correct saith Beza but neither Caluin nor Beza nor any other Diuine ancient or neotericall doth say that the Apostle for their abuse did either banish or abolish them But were they banished yet were they afterwards and soone called home againe from banishment and receiued into grace Antiquitie beareth witnesse of the vse euen the good vse of them in and after the Apostles dayes which afore had beene abused Whence learne we either not to banish things for their abuse but to amend them or if we banish to take them into fauour againe when they be reformed but neuer vtterly to condemne them as vnlawfull onely because they haue been abused In imitation therefore of the Apostles and other holy Fathers of the first best Churches by vsing such things well and namely Kneeling at the receit of the sacred bread and wine which had beene abused if you iudge vs to do il your sinne is great and the more if you suppose the reforming of the said Kneeling and applying it to good and holy vse to be a retaining of the Idolatrous Kneeling of the Papists and a tempting sinne And though we follow not the speciall gesture of our Sauiour and his Disciples in taking the sacramentall signes yet reiect we not his example as ill but like of ours as in our iudgement more meete and conuenient for the times and countrey wherein we do liue and reside When you do proue our Communion to bee a Masse I will confesse our said Kneeling to be Popish yea Idolatrie and so we in Kneeling to commit a tempting sinne which you know and I dare say you shall neuer doe Schis How can we imagine Christ to be honoured by Kneeling we kneeling in that Sacrament and in that part of the Sacrament which especially setteth forth our Communion with Christ and his Church and is therefore called the Communion Pro. I had almost gathered from your speech that baptisme is no Sacrament of our Communion with Christ and his Church but marking the word Especially I see that Baptisme is acknowledged to be a Sacrament thereof as well as the Lords Supper But I pray you is it a sinne yea atempting sinne for any to be baptized Kneeling When Iohn baptized in Iordan Philip at Samaria Peter at Cesarea Paul at Philippos these and the rest of the Apostles in other places did none which receiued the Sacrament Kneele Can you say they did not dare you affirme they might not without sinne Or in these dayes in no Church and place may no conuerted Iew Turke or Pagan renouncing his or their impieties and false worshippings embracing the Gospel and desirous to be incorporated and baptized into the same bodie with vs may not these I say nor any of these without sinne yea a tempting sinne receiue these fauours from God and his Church and be baptized Kneeling And if some that can may receiue that Sacrament Kneeling may none yet participate of the heauenly graces offered especially in the Lords Supper to all worthie Communicants Kneeling And if in the special Sacrament of our Communion they may yet may they not Kneele in that part of the Sacrament which especially setteth forth our Communion with Christ And if they so doe thereby tempt they and prouoke they God to plague them euen for their verie Kneeling though neuer so reuerently and with all possible Faith charitie and pietie done and performed O strange diuinitie No Sacrament yea nothing so placeth before the eyes of our soules either the wrath and iustice of God vpon man for sinne or his Philanthropie his tender incomprehensible loue towards makind in his Sonne Christ Iesus as the externall elements of bread wine consecrated at the holy Supper do nor doth any part of the same Supper so affect the minds of the truly zealous and Christian as the exhibiting before their eies and putting into their hands the pledges of Gods pacification through Christ the tokens of our atonement with God And therefore is no Sacrament so reuerently
chargeth Christ and his Apostles with want of reuerence which is absurd R. Not a whit For Christ and his Apostles did that which the custome both of those times and of their country made common and vsuall your selfe hath confessed And therfore both he and they did that which was both ciuill and comely Againe our Sauiour might do that surpassingly wel which we cānot Any action beseemed his person because without sin He graced all his gestures no gesture graced him But we alas we are sinfull wretches repairing vnto the Lords boord partly like supplicants humbly suing for the remission of our sinnes partly to shew our thankfulnesse for the comforts and benefites we haue receiued and hope to bee partakers of through Christ. And therefore haue iust cause euen most humbly to kneele as we do THE SECOND OBIECTION S. KNeeling in the receiuing the Lords Supper hath an apparance of euill R. From the commendation of Sitting how quickly are you come to the open condemnation of Kneeling at the L. table And a wonder it is if he that once falleth into a debasing of holy established orders in a church come not to an vtter detestation of them in the end Take heede in time If I should reason thus Sitting in the receiuing the Lords Supper hath an apparance of euill therfore to be auoided would you allow this argument for good No more doe I approue your kind of reasoning And yet sooner will I iustifie mine then you shall proue your Antecedent M. Beza saith that Kneeling in receiuing the signes hath a shew not of euill as you say but of godly and Christian veneration And this saying is true Did but an earthly King or Prince offer vs pardon for our transgressing his temporall statutes would it become vs or carried it a shew of reuerence to his Maiestie to receiue it Sitting And when grace and pardon for all our sinnes in the Sacrament of Christ his Supper is offered vnto vs by the seales of bread and wine carieth it a shew of euill to receiue it kneeling It is called the Sacrament of thankesgiuing euen for most heauenly benefites vnto Almightie God and with what better action of the bodie can wee testifie our thankfulnesse then on bended knees We offer vp our selues euen our soules and bodies an holy and liuely sacrifice vnto our God and is there any gesture that better becommeth such Priests then Kneeling Is this mysterie of so great waight as the open contempt thereof brings damnation and shall the receiuing thereof with the greatest shew of reuerence be counted if not an apparant euill yet an apparance of euill May the knee be bent at the name of Iesus and may we not kneele at the receiuing the holy Sacrament of his bodie and blood but we either do ill or seeme so to doe Must we humble our harts which is the greater not bend our knees which is the lesse Must we humble our hearts and not expresse our inward humiliation by outward Kneeling S. We may not R. Why so S. For it carrieth an apparance of Bread-worship Therefore to be auoided 1. Thes. 5. 12. R. You must iudge of our Kneeling by our doctrine as we iudge of the Papists kneeling by their doctrine we would not neither could we iustly condemne the Papists for their kneeling were not their doctrine most heretical and blasphemous Neither ought you to condemne our kneeling at the Cōmunion except you can shew the doctrine of the church of England is for the adoration of bread and wine Suscipitur ab artolatris Eucharistiae Sacramentum flexis poplitibus The Bread-worshippers receiue the Sacrament Eucharisticall on bended knees and here in England the faithfull take it with the same gesture of bodie whereat some are offended Sed meo iudicio nullâ de causa but in my iudgement without cause saith a learned man a stranger For both of them adore they that is the Papists the bread these viz. the faithfull in England not bread but Christ sitting at the right hand of the Father in the heauens I am sure there is not a syllable in the Communion booke that importeth any shew of this euill you speake of and our doctrine is as all the world doth know how to reserue cary about lift vp or worship the Sacrament of the Lords Sup. Supper is contrarie to the ordinance of Christ S. Doctrine and practise must go together otherwise we pull downe with one hand that wee build with the other As he that teacheth that an Idol is nothing in the world and yet sitteth at Table in an Idols Temple destroieth with his act that he built with his speech 1. Cor. 8. 4. 10. R. That the practise of our church concurreth not with her doctrine is a reproch laid very vniustly vpon a most religious nation should much vex your heart that euer you had such a thought of a Church most famous renowmed thorowout the world for the puritie of doctrine which shee doth professe and accordingly practise And therfore either make your words good or confesse your great ouerslip THE THIRD OBIEGTION S. IT is a monument of Idolatrie deuised by man of no necessarie vse in the seruice of God Therefore to be remoued Deut. 7. 25 26. 12. 3. 2. King 18. 4. Isa. 30. 32. 2. Cor. 6. 17. Iude 23. R. Be intreated I pray you to marke whither your affections not guided by discretion haue caried you At the first you said not that Kneeling at the Communion was an euill action but not the best nor after that how it was in it selfe euill but An apparance of euill But now forsooth it is a monument of Idolatrie which is euill indeed Thus one euill thought bringeth another Take heede of them in time else bring you to worse Besides this assertion is as voide of reason among men as it is of truth in religion For as to Kneele at the holy Communion is no Idolatrie nor so much as apparance thereof in sound Diuinitie so is Kneeling not in the predicament of substance but of Site And therefore no Monument by the rule of reason But be it a Momument is our kneeling a Monument of Idolatrie Kneeling at the Masse is grosse and palpable Idolatrie Is therefore kneeling also at the Communion a Monument of Idolatrie Last of al let Kneeling be of neuer so impious and detestable vse among Papists yet is the same gesture of good necessarie vse in our church For hereby as by the seemliest behauior for so religious a seruice we testifie the earnest and most zealous deuotion of our souls when we do either pray or praise God as we do both at the receiuing the sacrament So that were it a Monument of Idolatrie as it is nothing lesse deuised by man yet because it is of so good and necessarie vse in our seruice of God euen in your owne iudgement and conscience and that from these your words it is not to be remoued And
of bread and wine which neede not be much Pro. Whatsoeuer you shall say it is but too much in a needelesse contention You haue beene told that wee Kneele not neither bee to Kneele in regard of bread and wine Schis Verily no sound Protestant of any knowledge will affirme it but rather presently consider that if kneeling be instituted for reuerence in regard of bread and wine it must be either because they represent the body and blood of Christ though remaining bread and wine touching their substance And then for like reason we may worship the crucifixe and image of God as the Papistes doe Pro. True Schis Or this reuerence is done to bread and wine because Christ is reallie bodily and locally though inuisiblie present in them either by transubstantiation according to the mind of the Papists or of consubstantiation according to the heresie of the Lutherans Pro. The Church of England and members of the same haue in equall detestation both of the Transubstantion of the Papists and the Consubstantiation of the Lutherans Schis Then it must needs follow that if wee abiure these heresies of Papists and Lutherans we must also abhor idolatrous and superstitious Kneeling their daughter and Nurse Pro. Wee abhorre idolatrous and superstitious kneeling from our hearts but not kneeling Our kneeling is neither superstitious nor idolatrous Schis We neuer heard of kneeling before transubstantiation was hatched in the sygnagoue of Antichrist so that immediatly after Pope Innocent decreed transubstantiation Pope Honorius decreed kneeling Therefore if Harding doth graunt that it is not well to kneele but in regard of a real and bodilie presence a sound Protestant should infer But I detest your reall presence Therefore Iabhorre your idolatrous kneeling Pro. We are to regard not so much who ordained kneeling at the first or when it was established and why as who commands it now and the vse thereof which we take to be verie good profitable and necessarie What though Harding doth say that wee doe not well to kneele but in regard of a reall and bodilie presence doe wee therefore ill which kneele hauing no such regard And though you tell vs a thousand times wee doe ill in kneeling because the Papists in kneeling doe adore the the bread and wine doe wee therefore ill which abhorre the Papists both doctrine and adoration Therefore whereas Harding doth grant that it is not well to kneele but in regard of a real and bodily presence and yee Schismatikes doe say and maintaine that wee doe ill to kneele not because wee doe but for that the Papists in regard of a certaine perswasion they haue of a bodily and real presence doe adore Bread and wine wee hold both them and you to bee much out of the way them for condemning our kneeling because it is not in adoration of bread and wine you for condemning our said Kneeling which is without all regard of such adoration SECT 12. Whether kneeling at the holy Communion bee a shew of euill and the greatest scandall Schis WE are to abhorre kneeling Pro. What all kneeling Schis I meane kneeling at the Lords Supper as in my proposition is expressed Pro. Why so For hitherto haue you giuen no sufficient and satisfying reason why wee should abhorre it Schis Because we abhorre the heresies of worshipping of Images Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation Pro. Though the heresies of worshipping Images Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation be detestable yet is not our Kneeling to be abhorred vnlesse you can proue vs guilty of those heresies or the like which we abhorre no men more Our gesture of Kneeling cannot be ill when our doctrine is good as the same gesture could not be good if our doctrine were vnsound and sauor of those heresies which you cannot truely say it doth You haue afore beene told that the gesture of it selfe is neither good nor euill but to bee esteemed according to the doctrine which they professe and hold that vse it a site as we vse it in the Church of England verie comely and commendable a gesture as Papists abuse it most horrable Schis Not in respect of those heresies onely but also because it is the shew of the greatest euils that euer were it is to be abhorred Pro. Those euils would be shewen Schis It carieth a shew first of Idolatrie in worshipping a God made of a piece of bread Pro. Artolatrie is the euill of the Romish Church there is neither that euill nor a shew thereof among vs who acknowledge no breaden God much lesse giue any shew of adoration vnto bread and wine The shew of such euils wee condemne euen as the euill it selfe wee abhorre You haue bin answered againe and againe that our adoration in Kneeling is to our God in heauen not to his creatures on earth nor to Christ in them or transubstantiated into them which because wee do not the Papists afore mentioned viz. Harding would not haue vs to Kneele because we adore not what they doe which did you conscionably remember would remoue this vncharitable suspition out of your head that our Kneeling carrieth a shew of Artolatrie grosse Idolatry This therefore is but an vniust surmize of yours What is the next euill euen the great euill that it beareth a shew of S. Euen our communion with Antichrist rather than with Christ. P. To communicate with Antichrist is not reuerently and religiously to kneele at the holy Communion but to communicate in the doctrine and superstitious worship professed and vsed in the Church of Rome Herein wee communicate not with the Papists nor they with vs. They say that our Protestants are Amalakites and Heretikes our doctrine heresie and that they which so cal it and that in the worst part that can be and in the worst sence that euer was doth rightly and iustly and that we are Paganis Turcis deteriores worser then Turkes and Pagans We said of them that their religion is rebellion their faith is faction their doctrine false and erronious their seruing of God superstitious and idolatrous all their doctrine and worship blasphemous and derogatorie in an high degree to the glory of God Hence haue they separated themselues from vs and our Churches by open recusancie and wee haue departed from them and their offices which they call Apostacie and vs Schismatickes for so doing These things were they duly considered as they ought seriously me thinkes it should be far from the thought of any man professing the same doctrine with vs and detesting the religion of the synagogue of Rome to imagine that we in kneeling doe communicate with that whorish Church who are not so seuered in doctrine and worship as for our worshipping of God and doctrine without all hope of atonement or reconciliation separated in body but in affections much more This notwithstanding were their doctrine and worship as good as the signes of their deuotion commendable whom we do communicate withall in a dumbe ceremony and in different if to
thus vrged by authority if the sacramental signing of the body and blood of Christ bee no more to be reuerenced then water applyed in Baptizing children seeing that is also a sanctified signe of Christ his blood that washeth away our sinnes and iniquity P. If they will by you be aduised the simple and superstitious shall so argue and thereby fall into a loathing of our manner of receiuing the sacrament But you and they must be answered how the church of England hath the two sacraments in equall price and estimation conceiuing highly and religiously of them both but ascribing diuine adoration yea none adoration at all either vnto the Bread wine of the one or vnto the water of the other albeit the water signifieth Christ his blood that washeth away our sins iniquity the bread wine the body and blood of Christ shed and giuen for mans redemption But for-so-much as we are baptized infants when wee know not what wee do and are men old or young when wee partake of the other also that the very Bread and VVine exhibited to these senses and handes of all communicants do sacramentally represent the body and bloud of our Lord the Ministers deliuerie of them Gods very offering his fauours in Christ vnto vs the bread broken his body dead the wine his bloud shed vpon the Crosse lastly the distributing both of the wine and bread Christ his benefits and Gods blessings imparted and communicated vnto all Communicants whereof they be remembred so oft as they receiue in all places of the world and to the worlds end what Christian seeing and seriously considering these and the like things but will bee excited with all due submission and religious reuerence to come vnto the participation and receiuing of such celestiall fauours Not because it is either vnlawfull or vndecent with like reuerence to receiue the other Sacrament but for that partly our tendernesse is such because of our yeares that wee cannot and partly the necessity is not so vrgent that wee need to Kneele But doubtlesse were wee of good yeares and did know what we go about when we are to be baptized as we know what we do such is my perswasion and ought to be of vs all of all persons communicating at the Supper when wee come to the table of the Lord doubtlesse the Lord would not be displeased did we Kneele at Baptisme then our assured perswasion is that hee is not offended with our Kneeling at his Supper Therefore whereas all worthy communicants euen in duty and conscience are bound with this signe of reuerence to receiue these holy and heauenly mysteries and yet many persons in one respect or other will not bend nor bow their Knees but in no case Kneele if authoritie doe force such stubborne and wilfull persons to doe that necessarily which of themselues voluntarily they should performe neither doth authoritie transgresse their bounds nor do they sinne that obay their command And so let this satisfie those simple and superstitious persons and be an answer vnto you THE CONCLVSION S. TO conclude if kneeling in the very act of taking eating and drinking the Sacramentall bread and wine in the holy Communion be an institution of man P. It is no meere institution of man S. If it be the taking of Gods name in vaine when it is without all respect of reuerence P. It is done with all respect of reuerence in the Church of England S. If God be not honored thereby except it be according to his will P. It is according to his will and so God thereby is honored S. If it swarue from the example of Christ his sitting and therefore deserueth no praise P. Though it swarue from the example yet is it against no commandement of Christ. And therefore not to bee condemned S. If it bee a prouoking sinne to reiect the exemplary sitting of Christ whereby wee show our selues to bee in the Communion with Christ and the reformed churches and to retaine Kneeling which for bread-worship ought to bee banished and whereby wee seeme to bee in communion with Antichrist and his synagogue P. Wee reiect not the exemplary sitting of Christ neither should we sit haue we by it the more fellowship with Christ and his Churches reformed whose fellowship which without sitting praised be God we doe enioy is in partaking of spirituall graces in obeying and doing his precepts and in professing of Christian religion iointly and with one heart and minde neither by our Kneeling haue we either the lesse with Christ his true churches or the more familiaritie and communion with Antichrist and his synagogue In which respect neither is Kneeling to be banished out of our churches because of the Papists bread-worship nor do the kneelers by kneeling commit a prouoking sinne yea any sinne at all S. If it obscureth that reioycing familiaritie in and with Christ which the Lords supper signifieth P. At the Lords supper Kneeling obscureth not but furthereth our familiaritie and ioy with Christ and Christians S. If the argument from Christ his example be made the stronger in that he sat of purpose P. Christ his purposely sitting whatsoeuer it was maketh not our purposely kneeling to be vnlawfull S. If the lawfulnesse of choosing a fitter time than the euening cannot iustifie our reiecting Christ his exemplary sitting P. By the same authority Gods people may leaue the example of Christ in sitting if hee did sit whereby they left his example of ministring the supper in the euening vnlesse by some order and decree he had enioyned his example for our necessary imitation S. If the bittes of prayer ioyned with the words of institution do make Kneeling the more sinfull P. Euery bit yea and euery crumme of that prayer vsed with sound faith and deuotion doth make our kneeling the more acceptable vnto God S. If kneeling bee not as indifferent as standing nor best beseeming the holy communion and the King must appoint nothing but by the hand of the Lord. P. It is as indifferent and more conuenient than standing and in our iudgment and perswasion best beseeming the communion and appointed euen by God himselfe by the hand of our Lord the King S. If wee ought to abhorre Kneeling as wee abhorre Images transubstantiation and consubstantiation P. Kneeling is a pure ceremonie of our Church voide of all superstition and Idolatry whatsoeuer and our kneelers the most sincere worshippers of God and neither themselues nor their Kneeling to be abhorred S. If to scandalize bee greeuouslie to sinne and kneeling be a showe of the greatest euils and withall the greatest scandall P. There is no scandall giuen by kneeling neither is kneeling euill nor show of euill much lesse of the greatest euils or the greatest scandall S. If it bee a begging of the question to affirme kneeling to be indifferent and the Kings commandement so called both rather encrease than lesson scandall by kneeling P. Kneeling hath not as yet beene showne to bee of it selfe vnlawfull
so the consequent in this your Enthymeme viz. Kneeling is to be remoued from the supper of the Lord is of no validitie both because it followeth not from the premises and is forced and inferred against your conscience THE FOVRTH OBIECTION S. IT is an offence to the weake Ergo. c. Mat. 18. 6. seq Rom. 14. 20 21. 1. Cor. 8. 12 13 10. 28 29 30. R. It is an offence to the weake Ergo c. What Till I know your consequent this shall be my answer vnto the Antecedent how our Sauiour speaketh Mat. 18 seq of such defaults as whereby other men either by erroneous doctrine or vitious conuersation be offended or hindered from their proceedings either in godlines or good maners now Saint Paul in all the places by you quoted speaketh of not offending in matters and things in their owne nature indifferent neither prohibited by God in his word nor by any lawfull ordinance of man He that openly any thing either doth or saith forbidden of God both sinneth against God giueth offence to man and may expect without repentance a fearfull and double punishment both for his fact which is ill for the example he therby giueth which is worse Againe he that in things indifferent and at mans libertie to doe or leaue vndone hath not a tender care of weake Christians in his doing sheweth that there is not that charitie in him nor regard of his brethren which God requireth But though God doth not yet if his deputies the Gods terrestriall do enioyne any thing to be done not opposite to Gods word and tending vnto concord among men order and comelinesse and we will not obey nor fulfill their directions for offending some persons pretending themselues to be weak then are we so far from doing wel as we do sin both against God man in not fulfilling their commandements If therefore charitie by the texts of Saint Paul bindeth vs in things vncommanded or not forbidden to respect the weake much more pietie and dutie towards our gouernors should incite vs to do the things enioined by iust lawes Disobedience to the lawfull ordinances of godly gouernors is not only scandalous for the present but may proue very dangerous in the consequent Wherefore a wise man should not regard these lesser scandals of litle weake ones in comparison of the inconueniences great offences that arise may follow through the manifest contempt of lawes established And in cases such as this Kneeling is wherein we cannot chuse but offend either by doing or not doing that which is commanded better is it to offend the lesse then the greater a few priuate persons then a whole State and better barely to offend then to offend and sin too by fact and example as by wilfull and open disobedience we do In this point touching Kneeling I know no weake ones that iustly may be offended and if there bee they are not much to be regarded considering the long and constant preaching of the truth in this land touching these and the like points in controuersie It is a notable saying of Zanchius and approued by all learned and iudicious Diuines that for a time some thing is to be yeelded vnto these weake ones which you speake of euen till the truth may be taught them But after that the truth about these matters in question and the like hath bin set forth and laid open so as nothing can iustly be obiected against the same and yet purposely they will abide doubtful and vnresolued then is not their infirmitie any longer either by simulation or dissimulation to bee nourished Est enim pertinacia potiùs quà m infirmitas For it is rather to be counted frowardnesse then weaknes So Zanchius S. As there haue beene so there is and will bee alwayes weake ones in the Church of God both because it is Gods blessing which he bestoweth when and where hee listeth that maketh strong and for that there be alwayes some new borne babes succeeding one another R. Weake or strong simple or wise yong or old whosoeuer al must yeeld obedience to the orders of that church whereof they are members in all such matters as bee indifferent and not repugnant to the word of God S. Kneeling in the act of receiuing is not yet proued to be a thing indifferent R. I thinke your self will not say that Kneeling in it owne nature is either good or euill then must it needes bee indifferent euen as Sitting is Ista per se non sunt Idolatrica speaking among other things of this Kneeling now in question These are not things of themselues idolatrous saith Beza Therefore indifferent S. In things indifferent those in authoritie must limit their precepts by the word of God which willeth that the weake be not offended by any brother whatsoeuer R. Authoritie in making lawes must respect alwayes the common and publique good not what will please this or that man If the Church should stay from making of Constitutions til she can be assured that all her children will be pleased with her doings hardly if euer shall she make any lawes and so would brawles and disorders without end or number increase abound And hauing once made them to abrogate or not to execute them for feare of displeasing the weake what were it but either childish leuitie or ridiculous lenitie THE FIFT OBIECTION S IT strengthens the superstitious and idolatrous Papists in their Bread-worship Ergo. 1. Cor. 10. 32. R. The Papists they terme the Table of the Lord prophane and detestable and deeme of our Communion as of Idolatrous and sacrilegious superstition they thinke it better to eate Ratsbane then to participate of our bread and to drinke Dragons gall and Vipers blood then our wine this they termesacrilegious that poisoned When they take offence at the verie substance are they strengthened at the accidents When they abhor the matter take they comfort at our forme and maner of receiuing the same And be they strengthened thereby in their Bread-worship Assure your selfe it is all one to the Papists whether wee kneele or sit or walke or amble the whole action or ministration thereof whatsoeuer it bee is to them a like vile and abominable You cannot proue our Kneeling in the receiuing the Supper of the Lord to be a strengthning of the Papists in their Bread-worship but our not Kneeling doth strengthen the licentious and lawlesse Brownists in their irreligious contemning of our Communions S. That Kneeling doeth strengthen the Papists in their Bread-worship may bee proued both by reason and experience R. By reason how S. For that superstition and idolatrie being planted in our nature as a most fertile soile will not be destroied if there be left behind so much as a string thereof R. You cannot thinke of sure I am you cannot name a Church wherin there be not if not some branches yet some sprigs or at least strings of superstition and idolatrie will those strings
Ministers to the whole Church of England And if some Communicants do sit all the time of prayer and after fall downe on their knees when the bread and wine is offered them such Communicants would be taught told that as in this their Kneeling they do that which both the lawes of our Church doth require and also pleaseth God so their not Kneling all the time of praier is a most euident argument how they neither approch vnto the Supper of the Lord with such preparation as is requisite nor being come doe be haue themselues as they should For sure I am and you cannot denie if aduisedly you mark the order of our Communion booke that albeit the Minister is directed somtimes to Kneele sometimes to Stand and neuer to Sit yet the people are by the said booke to Sit neuer but alwayes to Kneele from the first to the last THE EIGHT OBIECTION S. IT is vrged being an humane inuention aboue the commandement of God R. Our Kneeling in the receiuing of the Lords Supper is not an inuention proceeding meerly from the wit inuention of man but as afore hath beene said is so from man as withall it is the inuention and institution of God Quaeritar saith master Caluin writing about Kneeling at solemne praiers and may as well be referred to Kneeling at the solemne receiuing of the supper of the Lord it is demanded whether it be a tradition of man which euery man may lawfully refuse or neglect Now marke his answere I say saith he that it is so of man as it is also of God It is of God in respect that it is a part of that comelinesse the care and keeping whereof is commanded vnto vs by the Apostle It is of man in regard that it specially betokeneth that which had in generalitie rather beene pointed to then declared So Caluin And this the Church both lawfully may and commendably doth vrge and call for at our hands S. It is vrged aboue the commandement of God Ergo Math. 15. 3 4 5. 6. R. How proue you the Antecedent S. I proue it thus The Minister is to bee suspended for giuing the bread and wine to a communicant not Kneeling but not for giuing them to a Communicant that neither can nor will examine himselfe before he eateth and drinketh at the Lords table Ergo. R. Your Antecedent is true in part and in part not so True it is that the Minister is to bee suspended for giuing the bread and wine to a Communicant that can and wil not kneele and his punishment is deserued For vnworthie is he to minister that refuseth to obserue the orders of that Church whereof he is a Minister Caluin himselfe was not onely suspended but also expulsed from the ministerie at Geneua and that for his stubborn refusing to administer the Lords Supper according to the order of that Church There is no Church vnder the Sunne but will haue the rites ceremonies there established to be inuiolably kept both of Minister and people Againe the Antecedent is vntrue For though Ministers bee not suspendable for giuing the Sacrament vnto many that wil not examine themselues afore hand why should they seeing neither Gods word nor mans law doth impose such a charge vpon any Minister namely to examin all Communicants who are to examine themselues yet some that will not themselues examine as notorious offenders Schismatikes the like they are not to admit vnto the holy Communion no more then they are to receiue the prophane Sitters and if they doe admit such they are to be inquired after and punished by the lawes of our Church Besides Ministers bee to admit neither ignorant ideots nor yong Infants or children that cannot examine themselues For if they do there is punishment by our lawes appointed for them as well as for those that allow the refractarie Sitters to participate at the holy table though the punishment be neither the same nor so soone inflicted S. You will say peraduenture that the breach of the peace of the Church is to be punished seuerely R. You know that where the offence is not small the punishment should not be light and where the disobedience is great the correction should not be small S. They breake not the peace of the Church which cleaue fast to Gods word in euerie thing with a meeke and quiet spirit R. You shall neuer be able to proue either your Sitting to be a cleaning fast to Gods word or our Kneeling to be a swaruing from the same But I haue shewen which mee thinks you should see how the same Kneeling is the lawful and laudable ordinance both of God and man euen of men of God or good men And therefore in mine opinion it can be no token either of meeke spirits highly to Sit when their brethren lowly do Kneele or of quiet minds obstinately to denie obedience to the orders and constitutions of a most renowmed and reformed Church S. The peace of the Church is more broken by transgressing a manifest and substantiall precept of God then by not obseruing a ceremonie whose lawfulnesse is questionable and therefore that should bee punished more then this R. You that will not be censured by the Church will and here doe censure the doings of a right Christian Church but from what spirit this doth proceede be your self iudge What manifest and substantiall precept of God there is which you say here is transgressed you haue not yet shewen and I would faine see And though you can name as you cannot any such commandement broken yet let me put you in minde how the violating euen of the morall and substantiall precepts of God haue sometimes and that by God himselfe in mans eies and afore the world with lesse rigor and seueritie beene punished then the contemptuous breach euen of ceremoniall ordinances For what I pray you was Adams eating the forbidden fruit the Bethshemites prying into the Ark of God Vzza his touching of the same Vzziah his offering of incense the mans gathering of stickes vpon the Sabbath day but violations or breaches of lawes not absolutely morall in themselues but either typical or ceremonial and yet what sinnes were euer so punished as some of them what more horrible in Gods eies then all of them In the new testament touching the Supper of the Lord which we haue now in hand the Apostle saith That whosoeuer shall eat this bread c. vnworthily shall be guiltie of the body blood of the Lord eateth and drinketh his own damnation c. procureth weaknes sicknes and bodily death Now who were they in that Church and at that time which did eate vnworthily and therefore were so chastised were they not such as transgressed and would not obey nor keepe the receiued orders of Gods people and despised his Church euen the publique place appointed for Gods worship Like vnto those that wil receiue Sitting when by order
to be receiued as the Lords supper on our part nor any part of the same Supper to bee performed with like ceremonies of zeale and deuotion as the verie taking and receiuing the bread and wine neither can wee so expresse and testifie the same reuerence as by Kneeling Your selfe afore saide then which you neuer spake truer words how the most solemne signe of reuerence is Kneeling The Sacrament is called you say The Communion be it so It is likewise called The new Testament and of the Fathers The Sacrament Eucharisticall or of Thanksgiuing and can we better manifest our thankfull hearts vnto our heauenly father then on bended knees And can there be no Communion euen at the Communion if we Kneele Doth the externall either Kneeling Sitting or Standing further or hinder our Communion betweene Christ and his Church These things dulie considered we ought not to imagine but that Christ aswell is honoured and better by Kneeling in the act of receiuing then by any other site or gesture of bodie whatsoeuer Schis That cannot be seeing it swarueth not onely from his example but also from the practise of all reformed churches except in England which the Papists themselues call Puritano-papisticall by retaining this and other Popish corruptions Pro. The swaruing from the example of Christ is no strong and true Argument that wee dishonour God in so doing For if that were true no Curch should bee pure from dishonouring God You cannot name a Church or companie of Christians in the whole world which in the ministring and receiuing the Supper of the Lord varieth not from Christ his example and that manifoldly which yet in their ministrations doe honour God If England herein doe swarue from all reformed Churches will you therefore conclude that the Church of England onely doth dishonour God We condemne not other Churches for their not Kneeling neither doth any Church nor should you Schismatikes condemne ours for our Kneeling And yet false is it that we Christians in England onely when we communicate do Kneele For all the Churches in Basill Saxonie Denmarke and many in Germanie by the orders of their seuerall Churches at the Communion as well as wee in England doe kneele Either therefore those Churches be not in the number of Churches reformed in your iudgement or they dishonour God by their said Kneeling so well as wee the former of which you will not I thinke say and if you should all Gods faithfull seruants thorowout the world will condemne you for your headie and vncharitable iudgement the latter you should not without blushing affirme and wee are so farre from imagining that thereby wee dishonour God as wee are of minde that God is by no externall site or gesture of bodie at the Communion so honoured as by Kneeling What the Papists thinke of and terme the Church of England wee are not ignorant neither doe regard But how Popish they thinke our Kneeling at the holie Communion to bee iudge by their wordes expressing their thoughts of the holy Supper which they terme A peeuish Supper fitter for Pagans than Christians more meete for dogges then men proceeding directly from the Diuell Can any man thinke our kneeling to bee a Popish corruption either hearing these things or reading them either in Popish writings or truly cited out of Popish bookes They abhorre our bread and wine as Schismaticall as hereticall as leading the high way to Gods wrath and indignation to hell damnation It is no Popish corruption which they so abhorre much lesse abhorre they our Kneeling as Popish yea they abhorre it because it is not Popish They are simple and verie strangers from the Papists opinions of our Church and her ceremonies which so thinke and speake Schis Such Kneeling may be an argument especially to a Papist not vnderstanding our tongue that we haue Communion with Antichrist and his Synagogue at least in the Idolatrie of bread-worship which our failng or carelesnesse to auow our Communion with Christ and his Church and not abhorring all Communion with Antichrist and his Synagogue cannot be without grieuous sinne Pro. If what last I said be true as no right Papist whether he vnderstand our tongue or not cannot bee doubtfull of our Kneeling cannot possiblie bee any Argument of Communion with Antichrist and his Synagogue in Idolatrie Besides what Papist is there but knoweth that the bread wine at the Altar once consecrated by their doctrine are transubstantiated forthwith into the verie bodie and blood of Christ and being so transubstantiated by and by as the onely begotten Sonne of God both of Priest and people vnder the paine of the Pope his curse with diuine honour and worship to be adored To haue these thoughts and to exhibit this adoration vnto the elements this is to communicate with Antichrist and his Synagogue but our reuerend and humble Kneeling at the taking and receiuing the bread wine in a thankfull remembrance of the death of Christ and of all the benefits we are partakers of by his passion that without althought or shew of adoring the bread and wine this is no communicating with Antichrist his Synagogue Hauing these cogitations though we Kneele wee haue Communion with Christ and his Church and hauing not these thoughts wee haue no Communion at all with his Church though wee Sit and Kneele not As therefore it is not the Kneeling but the impious conceits wherewith their hearts bee possessed and replenished when they approch to the Sacrament that maketh the Papists to be Idolaters so neither doth our Kneeling exclude vs from all Communion with Christ and his Church nor your Sitting that ioyneth you in fellowship with the same As grosse Idolatrie may you commit in not Kneeling as any persons euer did or as the Papists now doe in Kneeling But we charge not you as you do vs yet very vncharitably whose part were rather to conceiue better of them whose doctrine in the most principal points of Religion about the Sacrament especially is one and the same with yours light being not more contrarie to darknesse nor heauen to hell then what both ye which Sit and wee which Kneele doe hold therein is opposite and contrarie to the doctrine of the Synagogue of Rome Wherefore as we say not that yee differing from vs that Kneele haue no Communion with Christ and his church because ye Sit and doe commit a grieuous sinne did yee not offend against publique order for that with vs yee Kneele not no more should ye haue so much as an imagination that we haue Communion with Antichrist and his Synagogue because wee Kneele and doe commit a grieuous sinne for that with you we Sit not when wee doe receiue especially seeing God doth not forbid and Christian authoritie commandeth vs to Kneele Sittng kneeling are but outward ceremonies nothing to the substance of Religion concerning the true communion with Christ and his Church at all and of themselues indifferent did not the
a thing lawlesse without rule and sinners in Gods â—ies be as disordered and lawlesse men whom neither Gods word nor mans law can rule or make obedient Hence the Beniamites which defloured the Leuits wife and the Prophet Helies children are called the Sonnes or men of Belial Hence the Papistes abroad whose chiefest religon is mans tradition and Schismatikes at home the authors and abettors of confusion in the Church be Belials sonnes Christ hath no communion with Belial nor Christians with the sonnes of Belial either the idolatrous Papists or the lawlesse Schismatikes these hauing separated themselues from vs because of our orderly Kneeling and obedience wee hauing seuered our selues from the other for their manifest impieties Schis Come out and touch no vncleane thing are the wordes of the Apostle which either he wrote without warrant or we must sinne in Kneeling Pro. God bee thanked we haue fulfiled the Apostles words we are come out wee haue left Babylon and next we doe as little touch tast or see any idolatrous pollutions or haue communion with that which is vncleane in our Kneeling as you or any others in your owne opinion neuer so pure and reformed haue either in Sitting bowing or Standing by which sites of body idolatrie hath beene and is committed as well as by Kneeling They which onely and alwaies commit idolatrie bee not they which Kneele for then neuer should we Kneele but wee commit idolatrie and neuer should any commit idolatrie but such as Kneele both which to bee false our experience doth tell vs who find that both the most religious most deuoâ—t doe Kneele when they serue their God and the most idolatrous and superstitious the Papistes only excepted do neuer Kneele at their chiefest exercises of their deuotions Thinke therefore iudiciously of our Kneeling as it deserueth and neither condemne any men for Kneeling if they so do not idolatrouslie or superstitiouslie nor appooue them which Kneele if thereby they dishonour God Blame the Papists who by their Kneeling doe the greatest idolatrie that can bee but blame not vs which most sincerely thereby do serue God Christ not being more opposite to Belial than is the Popish masse to our Communion and the manner of administration of the same albeit both the Papists and we of the Church of England in receiuing they of their Masse we of the Communion in kneeling be like Schis Doth not God straightly forbid vs to serue him as idolaters doe their Gods Pro. You know or should not be ignorant how God had prescribed vnto his people the Israelites a certaine forme and manner how he would of them be worshipped whereunto whosoeuer should adde or any thing take or varie from the same hee was liable to Gods heauie wrath and displeasure The Israelites were faultie herein and therefore great and most grieuous were the punishments not onely threatned but inflicted also by God vpon the people of Israel for their disobedience But we Christians haue onely generall rules no speciall forme of seruice giuen vs by Christ as the Israelites had an assertion so true as some of you Sectaries haue a fancy that because God hath set downe none such in his word the Church therefore should be bound to none at all no not so much as to a forme of prayer and haue euen made praiers against ordinary and common praiers When God therefore hath left vs free blame vs not as Idolaters if differing from Papists in their Idolatrie wee be like vnto them in some indifferent ceremony or other and rather thinke though wee bee like them and they like vs in kneeling yet as they cannot be said to be good Christians and to serue God though they kneele so are not we to be counted Papists and to be Idolatrous though we kneele For by one and the same gesture both they doe worshippe their Idol and wee our Sauiour like in action most vnlike in affection neither they by Gods word iustified because they are like vs nor we condemned being in that ceremony like vnto them Schis These things considered can kneeling wherewith Papists doe honour their breaden God be honourable to Christ in his holy Sacrament Pro. Yea these things rightly considered euen kneeling wherewith the Papists do honor their breaden God may be to the honor of Christ in his holy Sacrament For by that gesture of body whereby they do worship their false God an idoll by the same do we worship the true God our Sauiour sitting at the right hand of the Father in the heauens Now let vs know at the length what the other consideration is why this kneeling is or should be so hatefull vnto God and men SECT 6. Whether Kneeling hindreth the sweet familiarity betweene Christ and his Church Schis SEcondly whereas the end of a Sacrament is to informe the outward man by sensible demonstration it pleaseth our M. Christ to vse such gesture as agreeably with bread and wine setteth out our Communion and spirituall familiarity with him and reioycing in him And therefore as he saith If any heare my voice and open the doore I will come in to him and sup with him and he with me so hee saith Many shall come from the East and West and shall sit with Abraham c. By which places it appeareth that as by Supper so by Sitting familiar reioycing or reioycing familiarity is expressed In which respect the Communion is called the Lords Supper and not a sacrifice and wee are said to bee partakers of the Lords table and not of an Altar And therefore not Kneeling but Sitting is for receiuing Pro. The end of all Sacraments is to informe not the outward onely but the inward man also by sensible demonstrations and therefore bee they called Gods visible word and seene engendring and confirming Faith and edifying the Soule as well as the Word audible and heard And as the word heard and beleeued diuersly doeth affect the soule and to diuers blessed and good purposes so doth the visible word the sacraments especially of the body and blood of Christ. For as Circumcision was a Seale of the righteousnes of Faith that is a testimonie confirming the Faith of Abraham so to euery one which worthily doth partake of the bodie and blood of Christ his verie receauing is a sealing to his faith that of Christ the body was giuen and the blood shed for his sinnes Next it teacheth them how the Sonne of God tooke on him the nature of man that by the oblation of his body and blood he might take away the sinnes of the world Besides the memorie of that sacrifice propitiatorie is made perpetual and thankes ascribed from time to time at the participating of those misteries vnto the blessed dutie By communicating at this holy Sacrament we learne moreouer and do beleeue that as the benefits of Christ are ours and doe appertaine vnto vs in so much as neither the members to the bodie nor the branches to