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A44848 Truth cleared, and the deceit made manifest or, An answer to a printed paper wherein are certaine untruths and false aspersions, cast upon a people, called Quakers, by some members of the church of Wrexham in Wales. With some questions answered: with other false accusations cast upon us, by one whose name is subscribed in print, Mr. Vavasor Powel, who is one of the chief priests of Wales, being in the generation of the scribes and pharisees. Let him that reads understand and he shall see it so. And likewise an answer to other slanders and false reports upon the same people, whom reproachfully they call Quakers, but we rather chuse to suffer reproaches, slanders, and false reports with the people of God, then to deny the power of God made manifest in us. By his servant who seeks the freedoms of Israels children, after the spirit, whom the world calls. Rich. Hubberthorn. Hubberthorn, Richard, 1628-1662.; Lawson, John, of Lancaster. 1654 (1654) Wing H3241; ESTC R215980 10,544 22

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not be free from sin and it was plainly made manifest in the Congregation to all those whose understandings was enlightened that thou wast one who ministred for Satan and pleaded for sin to keep people in their sins and one of them whom the Apostle speaks of who keeps them ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth and whereas thou accusest me for standing up before the Priest with my hat on Rep. Here thou makest thy folly manifest and that thou would have something to accuse for where doest thou read in the Scripture that ever those who were sent of the Lord to cry against the hireling Priests and those who were called of men Master as thou art who stand praying in the Synagogues have the cheifest place in the assemblies and greetings in the markets that ever they were accused for speaking against their deceits with their hat on thou readest that Paul as his manner was went into the Synagogue of the Jewes three Sabbath dayes and reasoned with them out of the Scriptures but thou dost not read that he put off his hat nor that he was accused for keeping it on He appeared before Agrippa and Festus to answer the accusations laid against him but thou dost not read that they commanded him to put off his hat nor did accuse him for it as the Magistrates and Priests of England do Again thou bringst scripture to plead for sin that thou maist live in thy wickednesse and keep the people in their sins and thou saidst Paul said he was not perfect Phil. 3. 12. and Solomon in the 7. Eccles. 20. and Jam. 3. 2. and 1 Joh. 1. 8. Rep. Thou enemy of Christ and of all righteousnesse All those who gave forth these scriptures doe declare against such as thou art and thou knowst nothing of their conditions Paul knew Jesus Christ and the power of his resurrection and fellowship of his suffering and was made conformable to his death and he preached wisdom among those that were perfect even the hidden wisedome of God which is a mystery to thee thou man of sin and he said let as many as are perfect be thus minded and said his preaching was to present every man perfect in Christ Jesus that they might be perfect and intire wanting nothing but thy spirit is contrary to Pauls for thou preachest to maintain sin and to keep people in their sins Again thou saidst thy way O man cannot be right for thou censurest all the godly Preachers and Saints that are not of thy opinion Rep. Here thou utterest forth thy lies who art in the generation of lyers the godly Preachers and Saints I censure not but such as thou who plead for sin and ungodlinesse and saith men cannot be perfect while they are here and opinions I deny and all who are Saints deny opinions and conceivings which thou livest in Priest-Powel's QUERIES ANSWERED Quest 1. WHether Jesus Christ which died upon moun● Calvary by Jerusalem is now in that very body of flesh and blood in heaven Rep. Flesh and blood enters not into the Kingdome of heaven but he that descended is the same also that ascended far above all heavens that he might fulfill all things and Christ is spiritual but thou natural man knowst him not nor his body which is spirituall which we witnesse who are members of his body of his flesh and of his bone If thou canst read me thou maist who art without who hast shut out thy selfe from Christ and knowst him not but art disputing about the body of Christ as the devill did about the body of Moses Jude 9. And this Jesus we witnesse who is the Son of God who suffered upon the Mount Calvery and was tempted of the cheife Priests and the same Christ suffers now by the chiefe Priests and is tempted as he was by such as thou who have the chiefest place in the Assembly stand praying in the Synagogues is called of men Master and there thou art among them whom Christ cryed woe against Quest 2. Whether the Bible or the word of God written by the Prophets and Apostles is the rule to trye men there doctrine and actions by Rep. Here thou shewest plainly thou art no Minister of Christ and knowst not the word of God which hast nothing to try men there doctrine and actions by but the letter which thou callest the Bible or written word which is naturall and carnal and art a Minister of the letter not of the spirit and thou goest about to try the living By the dead the spirit by the letter but they who are Ministers of God have the spirit of God by them thou art tryed to be no Minister of God and thy doctrine and actions are tryed to be the traditions of men the Saints witnessed the spirit of discerning wherby they tryed the spirits whether they were of God and we do witnesse the same spirit by which this spirit is tryed to be of Antichrist who hath nothing to try by but the letter which is carnal Quest 3. Whether art thou the Christ that suffered by Jerusalem Rep. Dost thou believe it Thou tempter who art in the same generation who said we do adjure thee by the living God to tell us whether thou be the Christ the Son of God who art an enemy to Christ and to all who confesse Christ come in the flesh for we witness the Son of God is come and hath given us an understanding to know him who is true but thou who knowest not Christ there is no answer of God to thee who art an unbeliever but thy portion is with hypocrits and unbelievers turned out from the presence of God into the lake of fire Quest 4. Dost thou believe the Scriptures as Isaiah saith To the law and to the Testimony And as Paul saith the Scriptures are able to make the man of God perfect And to this Question thou sayst the Quakers refused to answer Rep. Here thou art uttering forth more lyes for I answered thee and thy confusion was layd open and made manifest in the congregation for before thou saidst none could be perfect and here thou takest the words of Paul in thy mouth and out of thy own mouth thou art judged and found in confusion and Paul whose words thou takest in thy mouth shall condemne thee and all who live in sin and plead for it for hee was the Minister of God and did not say that men must continue in sin so long as they are upon earth as thou dost but laboured to present every man without sin and blamelesse Quest 5. Where dost thou find that any of the Prophete Apostles or Saints did ever quake and tremble in their bodies and yell and howle and roare to the scaring and amazing of men and beasts as you do Rep. Here thou makest thy selfe plainely manifest to be ignorant of the power of God and of the Saints conditions and ignorant of the letter
for the Prophets Apostles and Saints did witnesse trembling and quaking and did yell howle and roare David he roared because of the disquietness of his heart and hee cryed in the day time and in the night season and was not silent Job s roarings was poured out like water The Inhabitants of the land shall howle saith the Lord Habakuck his belly trembled Jeremiah cried out in his howels that he was pained at the very heart and that his heart made a noyse within him and these things did the Saints witness and we witnesse the same and it is to that scaring and amazing of such men and beasts as thou art who abides not in the truth but reviles and speaks evill of the power of God where it is made manifest in his people There shall be a voice of howlings of the shepherds the Lord hath spoken it and it is thy portion and in that day thou shalt know howling trembling and quaking Priest Powel said I read in Hab. 3. 16. Also in Job David Jeremiah and Ezekiel that trembled but not as thou and thy companions doe for either they did it when they had visions of God or at the sight of sinne or the dreadfull judgements of God approaching but thou and thy companions doe it not so Rep. Here thou art uttering forth more lies and false accusations for we doe witness the same power of God now as they did then and we doe witness the promise of the Father and the pouring downe of the spirit old men dreame dreames and young men see visions and upon his servants and handmaids hath hee poured forth his spirit and this we witness and he hath let us see sinne and by his grace which hath appeared to us doe we deny sinne and all ungodliness and the dreadfull judgements of God We witness against sin but thou and thy generation of Priests deny visions and revelations and say they are ceased for to thee there is no vision thou man of sin and so denies Jesus Christ the Son of God for none knows the Father but the Son and he to whom the Son reveals him and sinne thou seest not but pleadst for it and the dreadful judgement of God thou knowest not for if thou did thou durst not despise and speak evil of the power of God manifested in his people which witnesse these things nor utter forth thy lyes as thou dost Priest Powell said you say ye have no sin and thou teachest this to be necessary where canst thou find such an instance or example Rep. Thou blind Pharisee did not all the Ministers of God teach this to be necessary to deny all ungodliness and worldly lusts and they said how could they that were dead to sin live any longer therein and they walked in the spirit and did not fulfil the lusts of the flesh and God beheld no sin Jacob nor perversenesse in Israel and God said the remnant of Israel 〈◊〉 do no iniquity nor speak lyes neither shall a deceitfull tongue be found in their mouths and this do we witnesse who are taught by the grace of God and do deny such as thou art who are ministers for Satan and to uphold sin and the works of the divel which Christ came to destroy and we witnesse them destroyed by Christ and do deny the Antichrist Againe thou sayest Mr. Powell did propound to him whether he would ask him any questions whereupon as thou saist the Quaker asked him how hee could prove that any of the Ministers of God did stand in the highest place of the Synagogue over the people Rep. Here thou art adding lye unto lye the question was where canst thou prove that they who were sent forth by Jesus Christ who were Ministers of the Gospel did stand praying in the Synagogues had the chiefest place in the assemblies were called of men Master as thou art Priest Powel answered Ezra stood in a pulpit of wood above the people and prayed Rep. Here thou shewst plainly that Christ never sent thee for they whom Christ sent forth to preach the Gospel never pleaded for a pulpit of wood to stand in to be above the people as Ezra did who was a Scribe of the law and thou who pretendst to be a Minister of the Gospel and goest back to the law to Ezra for this example thou mayest offer the bloud of Bulls and Goats and Lambs and goe to the Priests of the law for thy example and so deny Jesus Christ come in the fresh as thou dost Againe thou saiest Mr. Powel gave answer to the satisfaction of the whole congregation yea to some of the seduced brethren in so much that the whole congregation did wonderfully with one voice glorifie God at the discovery and conviction which the Lord made that time of them Rep. Thou lyer and false accuser who hast published forth thy lyes in print that all you who have set your hands to it who call your selves Members of the Church of Wrexham all who read your lying libell may see you to bee in the generation of lyers and of your Father the Divell who was a lyer from the beginning and when he speaketh a lye he speaketh it of himselfe for he is a lyar and the father of it For there was many in that Congregation whom thou hast layd heavy burthens upon by thy false Ministry and thou hast left them without satisfaction both by thy Ministry by thy questions and answers and there was but few in the Congregation that uttered forth their voices to vindicate thee in thy deceit and sinne which thou pleadedst for but some whom thou hast seduced and drawne into the same height of deceit with thy selfe and most especially one drunken Priest who for his drunkennesse gluttony pride and deceit that his outward practises was seene so vile and abominable to the people that hee was cast out as a prophane person and hee was the cheife in that Congregation to plead for sinne with thee against the truth when the word of the Lord was declared against your false ministry and ungodly practises which is seene by all those who live in the life of godlinesse to them you are seene to bee deceivers and lying Prophets And there is a people which was in that Congregation whom the Lord is raising a light in their hearts whereby thou and thy doctrine is discovered and denyed as of Antichrist and they doe glorifie God on this behalfe that thou art discovered who hast so long deceived them who under thy Ministry have beene kept ever learning and never come to the knowledge of the truth but now the Lord is making himselfe manifest in his people and wee doe witness the Lord to be our Teacher who hath discovered all false teachers hirelings and deceivers to us Prayses eternal prayses to him for ever A Servant of the Lord who is not greater then his Master but in obedience as a Servant must suffer under the same