faith themselves which are never seen in infants are seen and examined which is as much as to say that when the acts are seen and examined as they may be in men then a judgement of science may be past on them do you not say that the discovery of the habit of faith to be in infants is made onely a posteriore i. e. onely by their future professings and personal actings of it which is as much as to say when children come once to act faith then it may appear and be known that faith is in them but tell then or in their infancy it cannot appear to be in them do you not say it cannot be certainly presumed what children have faith what have not the working of the spirit being not known to us and the spirit himself not bound to work faith in all the children of Christian parents nor barrd from working it in any children of infidels and that there can be no conclusion made of this thing which infants have faith which have not which is as much as to say that though it may be more certainly concluded presumed and judged concerning men at years who have and who have not faith yet the same doth not appear concerning infants in infancy are not these your own sayings but a few lines above and yet for all that have you so soon forgot your selves as to unsay it all again in this page where you ingage to make it appear concerning the particular children which are brought to be baptized that they have faith and to determine that in charity we are bound to judge faith to be in believers infants as much as we are bound in charity to judge it to be in the believing parents themselves that make profession and such judgement is as due to one of these as to the other were there ever such contradictions as these committed to paper before But le ts us examine your reason why we are to judge faith to be in these infants as we are to judge it to be in any that make profession you say because the Scripture hath so amply declared the good will of Christ to them which is Tanta mount to any ones single profession of himself I answer that the Scripture declares the good will of Christ to little children in general without exception and not to one more then another but what 's this to prove any of them to have faith much more what is it to the proving and making it appear that this and that particular infant hath faith which is the matter now in hand when other infants have it not or to prove believers infants to have it exclusively of the infants of unbelievers yet you say this declaration of Scripture which your selves confesse p. 5. declares concerning infants in general proves this or that single infant in contradistinction to others to have faith as sufficiently as any ones single profession proves it concerning his single self Nay this report of Scripture makes it appear say you most sottishly p. 5. that infants have faith more then the particular profession of any whom we admit to baptism can make it appear of himself and yet to go round again a posteriore onely i. e. by profession of it onely the discovery of the habit of faith is made O curious criss-crosse The second reason you here give why a charitable judgement concerning their faith is due to these particular infants and not others i. e. infants of believers and not unbelievers is this viz. Because you say we know nothing against any particular infants why they should be accepted from such a judgement To which I answer Do you know any thing against the particular infant of an heathen if this be a reason upon which we are to judge any infants in particular to have faith because we know nothing against any particular t is a reason upon which we are in charity to judge all particular infants in the world to have faith as well as any yea the infants of infidels as well as Christians for who knoweth any thing more against the infant of an infidell in his infanny whereby he should be excepted from our charitable opinion of him then he knows against the infant of a Christian especially that I may to your confutation conclude against you in your own words p. 5.6 since it cannot appear that one of these more then the other hath by any actual sin barred himself and deserved to be exempted from the general state of little infants declared in the Scripture viz. that the kingdom of heaven belongs to them So having run through and repelled that rout of responsives that would not be ruled by reason I come now to enter skirmish with your Scare-crow for verily what follows is no other then a false Alarum a sound of words a number of Iackets and Breeches stuft with stubble and bombasted into the shape of men in arms to fright fools at a distance Review We shall only present to the Christian Reader those horrid sins this wretched error of the Anabaptists involves men in and so forbear to be further troublesome it may be the sight will make many tremble and forsake their tents and not suffer them to be so frolick about the hole of the Asp or play with the Leviathan and walk upon the ridge of those Alps whose Praecipice is so fearfull Re-Review Bona verba quaeso and not thunder without lightning Review 1. It makes them deny their first faith with their baptism for there is but one faith saith the Apostle and one baptism Eph. 4.5 Re-review Aliâs it makes them first confesse and visibly professe that one faith and own that one baptism which what ever they did in words in works they denyed till now and makes them renounce that none faith and none baptism which they had in infancy for if they had faith while they were infants how can they deny it in your opinion who deny any falling from faith but if they had none in infancy then how can you deny but that they had none and so they deny none at all Review 2. It makes them crucify Christ again for we are baptized inâ—o Christs death and therefore but once because Christ dâ—ed but once Re-review It makes them crucify Christ often ore and ore again indeed i. e. in the Supper where in a figure they break his body and shed his blood an orderly fellowship and communion in which service they are ingaged to and enter upon after the example of those Acts 2.42 immediately after baptism Other crucifying Christ I know none among them that is caused by their doctrine but that of those who after they are inlightned in it and have tasted the good word of God c. do after that fall away again and such indeed crucify to themselves the sonne of God afresh and put him to open shame Heb. 6.4 but I hope the truth among none but Reasonlesse persons shall bear the blame and be made
reproving and in case of non-amendment rejecting disowning but if your Church and its Ministery be like each other I find not your Church so forward to call us to this Account of our faith for you her Ministery do utterly refuse to accept when we offer it how often have we been an hundred times more ready to give reasons of our way then you Church-men whom she trusts are to receive them but if we durst not give Account to Christ for what we do we durst not give Account for it to your selves Assure him to our consciences to be what you here assert him to be viz. the Patron of Paedo-baptism but this from Mar. 10. nor act 2. nor 1. Cor. 10. nor from any other portion of his Testament nor from his patronizing Paedo-circumcision you cannot much less can you of Paedo-rantism which is your way and then we are so sensible of our future appearance before his Iudgement Seat and have gain'd so much self denial for his sake since we practised Pisto-baptism that we shall as readily lay it down I hope as we took it up Report After the Ministers were retired diverse Gentlemen and others who had been present at the Disputation thanked the Ministers expressed the satisfaction they had received assuring them that many were confirmed by their means and the resolution of the Ministers who were Auditors was that they would faithfully in their several congregations declare their sence of it and oppose the growth of Anabaptism in their respective flocks Reply Here followes the Story of what event and success your meeting had among your selves and you great friends after you were hous'd of its powerfull influence upon you Ministers and your Maecenasses when you met together at your Randezvous which was on this wise you had their gratulatorie expressions of their own satisfactions and assurances of many ones confirmation by your means and this reciprocally raised you Ministers into joint incouragements ingagements and resolutions to declare your sense of this happy efficacy and acceptation your indeavors had among them and to stickle more stifly then ever against Anabaptism in your respective flocks where you usually winne all because you plaie with none there but your selves and that you do with such earnestness and zeal that for fear men should come to Anabaptism i. e. a second Baptism you stave them off at a distance and what in you lies forbid them to own a first thus while they doted on your Doo-little Disputation and plaistered it ore with their applause you in requital agreed to new White-lime and daub ore their Babylonish Idol baby-sprinkling with your untempered Morter Sirs I half wonder at one thing for which whether more happâ—ly or unhappily it befalls you I wot not yet I however rather more pitty then envy you viz. that who ere carries the thing yet you still carry the thank and who e're is at loss in your holy warres against us Hereticks yet your selves take upon you still to be Triumphant you give the satisfactions the confirmations for which you have gratulations from the great ones as if the good issue of things did run only and alway on your side I find it so in all verball Accounts and also in those printed Accounts that are extant of your doings and disputations with them of this way called Anabaptism viz. Dr Featly's Account of his Disputation with them in South-wark and this of your own also with us at Ashford and another of Mr Baxters with Mr Tombes at Bewdley pend all as is supposed by the Opponents themselves who whip them if they have not more wit and less grace then to disgrace themselves too much whilst they continue Clergy-men And now I name Dr. Featly the man whom in the next page you turn us over to for more furniture in this point I cannot but note by the way how finely you Featlifie throughout your whole Account as well as here as if there were a certain Transmigration of Dr. Featly's spirit into that person that was the inditer of your Account for as most of the Arguments are found in not to say fetcht and filcht out of Featly's fardell so how many things in yours are after the very Image of his Account as if one had been the plat-form of the other Dr. Featly pens and prints forth his disputation under the title of a True Relation of what passed and how properly I appeal to all men so do you Dr. Featly saies it was the clamors of the Adversaries awakn'd his or else it had slept securely by him in a whole skin so say you the disgraces the Adversaries loaded your disputation with rakt it out of those ashes in which else it was designed to be smothred Dr. Featly be-Asses us Anabaptists and so do you both us and your selves too as is shew'd above Dr. Featly makes as if none of that sect ever troubl'd him any more after that so ye that after your handling of the enquirer none did propound any more questions as if you had stopt the mouths of all Dr. Featly relates that the dippers were dipt and plung'd ore head and ears in disputation with him so you that your Respondent was extremely foundred answer'd nothing in the least measure satisfactory or that caâ—ried any shew of sense or reason to the purpose Dr. Featly relates the issue of his as to himself to be great thanks so ye how you were thank'd and as you from divers Gentlemen so he from the Knights Ladies and Gentlemen of which rank few stoop so low as to the plainness of the Gospel but neither of you from the poor of this World that are rich in faith and heirs of that Kingdome which God hath promised to them that love him into which few Knights Ladies and Gentlemen except more of them repent believe and obey the Gospel then mostly do shall ever enter thus you flaunt it over the little flock over this sect which is every where spoken against as baffled non plust worsted by you still but Sirs we can give loosers leave to talk you tell of gratulations satisfactions confirmations of people in your wayes by your means but how comes it to pass that there are so many Churches the true Church i. â— those you call Anabaptists may say in her heart after her long widow-hood as Isa. 49.21 who hath begotten me these seeing I have lost my children and who hath brought up these behold I was left alone these where have they been thy people crumble from thee apace O PPPriest for all thy satisfactions and are captivated some more to Christ and some more to the Devill then ever before while they served thee thy Divinity O Divine is as the blood of a dead man it hath no life in 't thy Common stock and store of Religion thou hast treasur'd up to thy self out of this Author and that out of Harmonies of Confessions Councels c. grows stale and begins to stink before the Scriptures in a word gray-hairs
or burdens mercies or judgements unless they be excepted Much after the same sort also doth Mr. Blake express himself p. 20. of his birth priviledge concerning Mat. 28.19 viz. The words there comprize infants they are no more excluded then men at years serving to make up a Nation as well as parents the infants of any nation make a part of the nation But who would think such goodly geer as this should manifest it self to the whole world as a fruit of the most serious meditations of men so eminently polemical as they by the Clergy are esteemed to be in their several Tracts in this point and that it should pass without the least item of correction for it from any one of their brethren who rather seem all to consent to then contradict them However I shall make as serious Examen of it as I can First then is it so Sirs that what ever administration extends to all nations belongs to infants therein as well as men so that they are no more excluded from it then men at years how is it then that preaching the Gospel and prayer with laying on of hands for confirmation for the spirit which Dâ— Holmes dotes was dispensed to these infants that were brought to Christ and therfore much more baptism in infancy and as a proof thereoâ— brings testimony that it was never used in the primitive times to be dispensed till past infancy how is it I say that these and also fellowship in the supper are by your very selves denyed to belong to infants in infancy what is the reason that you exclude infants here are not these priviledges belonging to men why then if yours and Mr Marshalls assertion be true not to infants as well as men are they not mercies administrations merciful administrations of God extended to all nations yea is not preaching an administration to every creature that extends not to infants and yet saving Mr Marshals cunning insertion of this clause unlesse they be excepted whereby to salve his proposition from default of falsity though thereby he renders it plainly uslesse to his purpose are infants any where by name excepted from any one of these administrations any more then they are from baptism it self yea is it not an administration of God extending to all nations that persons should work or else not eat in which infants are not included for then must they starve and yet no where at all excepted yea he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved he that believeth not shall be damned Christ is the Author of eternall salvation to all them that obey him Christ shall come in flaming fire taking vengeance on all them that know not God and obey not the Gospell he that confesseth me before men him will I confesse before my father which is in heaven he that denieth me shall be denied whosoever is ashamed of me and of my words of him will I be ashamed he that denieth not himself and taketh not up his crosse dayly and followeth me and hateth not his father and mother and his own life and all that he hath cannot be my disciple him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he saith unto you and whosoever heareth not his voice shall be cut off from among his people if any man love not the Lord Iesus Christ let him be Anathema Maranatha repent and be baptized and an hundred such like are not these Gods Gospel-administrations of duties promises threatnings priviledges burdens mercies judgements extended to all nations from which infants are not excepted and yet do these include and comprize infants as much as men at years or are infants excluded by expresse exception from any of these any more then from that one amongst the rest viz. the duty and ordinance of baptism how then dare you aver so peremptorily so universally that every administration that extendeth to all nations belongeth to infants as well as men yea that I may shame and silence you in this out of your own sayings some of you namely Mr. Marshal perceiving that if you grant that Infants did eat the passeover it will follow from that to their eating the supper as well as from their circumcision of old to the baptism of them now do assert that infants did not eat the passeover yet was not the passeover an administration to the nation of Israel from which infants were never excepted and if so how then can your other sayings be true that every administration that extendeth to the nations belongs to infants as well as to persons at years unlesse they be somewhere excepted Babist We mean not of a formall exception but a vertuall exception an exception in effect at least infants must have or else be supposed as included under every administration that is given to the nations and thus infants are excepted from all those last mentioned precepts promises threats c. forasmuch as it is most notoriously known they are not capable to do the things upon the performance or non-performance of which those mercies and Iudgements are promised and threatned for they cannot hear Christs voice nor know nor love nor obey him nor deny themselves nor hate their lives nor confesse him nor deny him and whereas t is said that if any will not work let him not eat infants must necessarily be understood to be excepted there though not by name because they cannot work and so unlesse excepted must perish by Gods appointment for want of food so concerning eating at the supper Infants are excepted not expressely yet implicitly and in effect in those words let a man examine himself and so let him eat because there 's that required in order to eating there viz. self examination discerning the Lords body and blood which infants cannot do Baptist. T is very true they are excepted from all these as you say implicitly and in effect though not expressely but then let it be considered is there not as fair and as clear an exception of them from baptism as from any of these or in particular as from that service of the supper in as much as theres that required in order to baptisme which infants can no more do then they can do what 's required to the supper viz. to believe with all the heart Act. 8.37 and to be discipled i e to be taught and to learn the Gospel Mat. 28.19 If any should ask this question what hinders why I may not eat the supper you would answer thus if thou examinest thy self thou maiest eat of that bread and drink of that cup so when the Eunuch enquired of Philip what hinders why I may not be baptized he answers him in the very same viz. if thou believest with all thy heart thou maiest for whoever shall say these answers viz. let a man examine himself and so he may eat let a man believe with all his heart so he may be baptized or if thou examinest thy self thou mayest eat or if thou believest with all thy heart thou maiest
presentment of the righteousness of Christ without faith is a figment of the Anabaptists without ground or reason from Scripture the Covenant of the Gospel being the righteousness of faith To which I contradictorily reply that there is another way revealed for the salvation and justification of little infants from all the guilt that lies upon them in infancy which is no other then that which comes upon them for the sin of Adam onely and from all that mischief which comes on them onely meerly and simply for that sin then that way of faith and that is the presentment of the righteousnesse of Christ to God on their behalf without faith and this way is no figment of the Anabaptist as you No-Baptists do foolishly fancy but that which hath such strong ground and reason from Scripture as you will never overthrow while you live although to men at years that have acted transgression in their own persons and are capable to act faith and other good as well as evil the Gospel is granted to be a Covenant that gives righteousnesse by Christ in no other way then that way of faith and obedience to him We usually put cloaths upon infants but men put their clothes on themselves and so must we put on Christ by faith in order to justification when we come to years of discretion Gal. 3.27 and not before I know the multitude of Scriptures that speak in general or at least in such indefinit terms as are in sense equivalent to universal concerning salvation to all them that believe and nothing but condemnation to all them that believe not as Mark 16.15.16 Iohn 3.15.16.18.19.36.11.26 Act. 10.42 Act. 13.43 Rom. 1.17.3.22.25.26.28.30.4.6.24 a most monstrous mistake of all which as also of the whole Scripture makes you miserably misbelieve this matter viz. the way that all dying infants are saved in for you deem or rather dream that the Lord by these expressions whosoever believeth in me shall never dye he that believeth not shall be damned he that believeth not on the Son shall not see life c. delivers his will and testament not onely concerning persons at age but concerning infants in their very infancy also whereas if you Divines had not Divin'd your selves to very dotage you could not but understand that little infants are not intended in any of these or any other places that hold out faith as the way of our salvation for do but judge in your selves were it not shameful senslessnesse to read thus out of those places viz. God so loved the world c. that whosoever infants in infancy as well as men believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life those infants that do believe on him are not condemned but those infants that believe not are condemned already and why because they have not believed in the name of the onely begotten Son of God And this shall be the condemnation of infants as well as men that light and life is come to them and yet infants believe it not neither will come unto Christ that they might have life but but love darknesse more then light because their deeds are evil for thus you may read it if infants as well as men be there meant and so were it not sottish to read thus out of Rom. 4.23 it was not written for Abraham onely that faith was imputed to him for righteousnesse but for infants also to whom it shall be imputed if they do believe on him that raised up Iesus our Lord from the dead c. so would it sound any whit savourly in the ears of one that 's of a sound judgement to read Mark 16.15.16 so as to understand infants together with others viz. go preach the Gospel to every creature who ere believeth and is baptized shall be saved but whoever believes not man or woman old or young infant or suckling shall be damned would not this grate harshly upon charitable ears but surely infants are not spoken of here nor are they in any other Scripture for ought I can find with the best sight I have where faith is spoken of as the condition on our part without which nothing is to be expected but condemnation I am sorry Sirs to see you Clergy men cloath your selves with such darke conceits and confusednesse of mind as not to know of whom and to whom things are spoken in the word nor whom in general the Scriptures you professe to be so profound in concern and preach to and I beseech you be not too wise in your own conceits to learn one lesson at least from him that is a fool among you for Christs sake viz. whereas you say infants must believe or not be saved the Scriptures declaring no other way to salvation but faith in Christ that the Scriptures were written only for our instruction that are at years to understand them and not for the use and instruction of infants in infancy in the way of life the Scriptures were given as a coppy of the testament and the will of God concerning men and women to declare to them what he requires of them and in what way he would have them to wait upon him in order to the attaining of that salvation he hath purchased by the blood of Christ and will freely confer on them for his sake viz. the way of faith repentance baptism supplication submission self-denial obedience both active and passive perseverance therein to the end and in a word attendance to the law of Christ the voice of that prophet that he hath now raised up in all things or else to have no part among his people from all which conditions and performances I say from every of them as well as any one of them from believing as well as obeying in baptism or any other part of his will or any other works of God under the Gospel among which belief is a chief one Iohn 6.28.29 little infants as being yet uncapable subjects to obey in any of these are universally exempred in their infancy otherwise I dare a vouch no dying infants in the world shall ever be saved for can they do any of these things in infancy so such as are to be baptized are called to do Act. 22.16 and who ever so doth shall be saved and whoever doth not shall perish Ier. 10.25 if the way wherein men are to be saved must be walkt in by all infants too in order to their salvation then wo to all infants that die in non-age for alas how shall infants call on him in whom they have not believed and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not yet heard and how shall they hear without a Preacher and who can preach to them before they can understand Rom. 10.14.15 so then they cannot believe for faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God some way or other outwardly as well as inwardly preached Babist The spirit here speaks de subjecto capaci onely viz of the way how men
respected in baptism for not onely purgation but also mortification and the dying of the old man is proposed there c. And of spiritual circumcision Paul maketh two parts saith Zanchee the first he calleth buriall with Christ the other resurrection with him and of both these he maketh baptism the sign c. Neverthelesse our above named opposers will at no hand give way that there should be any representation or resemblance made in baptism of these two things which are the prime significations of it by putting under water and plucking out again yea they seem to chide with their several Antagonists A. R. and C. B. for offering once to urge that the outward sign ought to hold analogy or proportion with the thing signified in that particular A proportion between the sign and these things signified viz. a death burial and resurrection Mr. Blake grants there is in our way of baptism by dipping but that there need be or should be so by institution this he heares not of with patience no nor Mr. Cook neither But if it please you to have patience with me so long sith those two are the maine men that beside the Doctor whose repulse is not worth a rush so mainly oppose our Argument from Rom. 6. Col. 2. I le take the paines to transcribe their several replies and then see what strength there is in all that they say to the contrary Mr. Cooks defence is as followes What you go about to gather saith he from Col. 2.12 Rom. 6.4 I know not unlesse this that as Christ was buried abode in the grave three daies and then rose again So your party baptized must be put under the water abide there some considerable time and then come up again for if you presse a similitude of Christs death in going down into the water and of his resurrection or comming up out of the water why not also of his abode three daies by abiding three daies or some considerable time under the water which will make bad work neither can any such thing be gathered from those Scriptures I would demand two Questions saith he 1. How you gather from these places a dipping of the whole man over head and under water and that a similitude of Christs death burial and rising again to be represented by dipping in water is signified here these Scriptures shew indeed that the end of our baptism is to seal our communion with him in his death and resurrection by which we are dead to sin and raised again to holinesse but if you will presse hence a resurrection by our descending into abiding in and comming up out of the water take heed least you be one of those which adde to Gods word least he reprove you as a lyar and adde unto you the plagues written in his book for I know no word of God wherein this representation is necessarily implyed much lesse expressed Besides if you urge death and resurrection to be resembled by descension into and ascension out of the water you must urge also burial which is principally there expressed by the biding of the whole man head and all under for a time answerable to Christs three daies burial which cannot be without danger yea certainty of drowning 2. If it should be granted that a representation and resemblance of Christs death burial and resurrection is set before us in baptism and so of our death to sin and rising again to holinesse yet I demand why this may not as well be by infusion of water as dipping can you give me an example of so many killed and buried by immersion or dipping into the water as I can give of them that have been put to death and buried by infusion of water I am sure a whole world of men and other creatures those few that were in the Ark only excepted were buried in the universal deluge at once by infusion not by dipping so that infusion or sprinkling may as well clearly signifie death and burial as dipping and to the preservation of Noah and those that were with him in the Ark on which waters were poured from drowning the Apostle compares baptism as its Anti-type Thus far Mr. Cook p. 16 17. And then again p. 19 20.21 he undertakes further viz. to argue back again upon us at large and to prove that if there must needs be a resemblance and representation in baptism of the things that are signified therby then it may be as well nay must be rather by washing pouring sprinkling then by dipping and putting under the water sprinkling and infusion being as if not more agreeable to the nature and instiâ—ution of baptism then dipping or immersion for as the word used i. e. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies washing so the thing represented signifyed and sealed saith he in the wonted implicit phrase in baptism is a washing 1 Cor. 6.11 ye are washed c. the washing of Regeneration 2 Tit. 5. having your bodies washed with pure water Heb. 10.22 t is a cleansing and purging 1 John 1.7 blood of Christ clenseth us from all our sinnes Heb. 9.14 blood of Christ shall purge your conscience which things viz. washing clensing purging are done as well by infusion of water saith he as dipping and though it were granted saith he that in those hot countreys they commonly washt by going down into the water and being dipt therein that will no more inforce a necessity on us of observing the same in baptism now then the examples of Christ and the Apostles gesture in the supper ties us to the same which was leaning and partly lying but it may be objected saith he that sprinkling a little water doth not so fitly represent the washing of sins away as dipping or plunging sith here the whole body is washed there the face or head onely I answer first saith he the Scripture no where requires washing of the whole body in baptism Secondly with as good reason one may plead thus that t is most convenient that at the supper every communicant should receive his belly full of bread and wine and take as long as his stomack and head will hold to signifie the full refreshment of the soul with the body and blood of Christ but who would endure saith he such reasoning These outward elements of water bread and wine are for spiritual use and to signifie spiritual things so that if there be the truth of things the quantity is not to be respected further then is sufficient for its end namely to represent the spiritual grace and that it be neither so little as not clearly to represent it nor so much as to take off the heart from the spiritual to the corporal thing yea the spirituall grace and visible act of God upon the soul signified and represented by the outward act of baptism viz. The application of Christs blood and donation of the spirit is exprest in Scripture by the name of powring sprinkling and that probably if not certainly with allusion to
resurrection as in baptisme there must be sith they never rose from under it any more This crooked come off therefore of Mr. Cooks is â—arre more ridiculous then rational and yet I know more men of his mind in this particular I mean so far as to agree to it with lesse ado then he doth that a death burial and resurrection is to be resembled in baptism and yet to think that the sprinkling or casting water upon the party doth sufficiently make that resemblance but I testify to him that this his way is his folly and theirs also that approve his sayings and I advise both him and them that adhere to him to be heartily ashamed of two opinions of his so equally odd and absurd that I can scarce tell well which of the two are more absurd then the other The one is his supposition that the spiritual grace to be represented and resembled in the manner of administration of that ordinance of baptism is sprinkling besprinkling with the blood of Christ whence in order thereto he as unworthily argues that baptism must be dispensed by sprinkling which indeed nullifies it from being baptism if he consider the inconsistency that is proved to be between them The other is the thing in hand viz. his supposition that sprinkling may well not only signify but resemble a death burial and resurrection as well as dipping and is as well required for so he hints p. 19. to be used in this Sacrament as the other If those who own these things and whose own they are will not be ashamed of them for my part I am for to think that the wisdome of the spirit that in condescension to our dull capacities did leave visible signs to be not only true remembrances but also lively resemblances of spiritual things should order things so unsuitably to sense as to require and appoint matters utterly unlike one another and between which there is no Analogy at all to answer one the other by way of resemblance viz. such a thing as rantism to resemble a death burial and resurrection which are to be and are truly resembled all in true baptism i. e. in dipping or appoint such an ordinance as baptism which in plain English is dipping to resemble rantism only or sprinkling with Christs blood is no lesse the absurdity in the abstract But as for you your self you are it seems of Mr. Blakes mind i. e. resolved to own no necessity at all of any resemblance of any thing nor of any ceremony to be in the sign of baptism representing the things signifyed in it I shall therefore shew that as in true baptism i. e. dipping there is de facto and that Mr Blake confesses so there ought to be de jure a proportion and resemblance of the death and resurrection of Christ and of ours with him in that ordinance whereas therefore you say that all signes do not represent the thing signified thereby t is true who questions that but t will not therefore follow but that there are some signs that both do and may and by institution must not only signify but also resemble at least the main things that are signified of which sort baptism is without question one We must here thefore distinguish concerning signes among which some are natural which by nature signify the things whereof they are signs as smoak signifies that there is fire as we say there is no smoak but its a sigâ— there is some fire a red and louring morning a sign of a foul day Others Praeter-natural and institutive which by institution signify the things whereof they are signes and this either by humane appointment as the Ivy-bush is a sign among men thaâ— wine is to be sold where it hangs or divine as the Rainbow is a sign by divine appointment to signify that the world shall never be wholly drowned again by water and these signes by divine institution are either such as are simpliciter signantia meerly and simply significative of the things they signifie without any Analogy or likenesse to them at all as the Rainbow which signifies but resembles not the worlds deliverance from drowning and the dew and drought that were by turnes on Gideons fleece which were signes to him of it but not resemblances of his victory and the shadowes going back upon the dial of Ahaz which was a sign to Hezekiah but not a resemblance of his recovery and such like Or else such as are signâ—ntia et similantia simis ' having in them the signification and similitude of the things signified together and of this sort are all those signs which you commonly but not properly call seals also viz. the sacraments whether those of the old or those of the New Testament viz. Circumcision and the Passeover baptism and the Supper from the manner of the administration of the two first of which you use to argue to the manner of the administration of the two last which so far but no further then serves your turnes you say came in the room of the other for though by way of Analagy with Circumcision as comming in the room thereof you would have baptisme dispensed to infants yet neither Anallogically to males onely nor on the 8th day onely nor to male servants also nor yet by way of analogy with the passover which admitted of every circumcisied soul will you admit baptized infants to the supper which came by institution more truly and immediately in the room of the Passeover even when it was moriturum if not plane mortuum for it was no more to be meddled with for ever whereas circumcision was in use de jure after baptism was begun But I pray Sirs be not pickers and chusers thus at your own pleasure but if you will have an analogy to be held let it be in such things wherein it should be held between the old testament sacraments and the new An argument however ad hominem i. e. sufficient to confute you out of your own mouthes who plead so for analogy between those two administrations of the old testament and these two of the new arises naturally from your own opinions for if a proportion must needs be kept between circumcision and baptism in point of administration otherwise why not in the manner of the administration of these signes as they stand in reference to the things thereby signified so as that the one of these signes viz. baptism may stand in some proportion to its signatum as well as the other i. e. circumcision The Pascal lamb without blemish a bone of which was not to be broken did not onely signifie but lively resemble also Agnum immaculatum exhibendum that lamb Christ Iesus which was once to be offered without spot to God and not a bone of him to be broken also the supper that came after it doth not onely signifie but resemble also Agnum exhibitum Christ crucified that immaculate lamb now offered whose body was broken and blood shed by bread broken and
or four pages after ' where coting both the places we are now in hand with viz. Romans 6.4 Col. 2.12 He Expounds the words buried with Christ in baptism of the verity of the outward rite it self representing and betokening the spiritual death to sinne that ought to follow it Paraeus also upon Vrsin p. 375. speaking how baptism is a token not only of remission of sin but regeneration also which he makes so synonimous with our death and burial with Christ that he cotes these these two places Rom. 6.4 Col. 2.12 to prove regeneration to be signifyed in it for we are said saith he to dy and to be buryed with Christ in baptism gives this as one reason why we are said to be regenerated that is in his sence dead and buried with Christ in baptism because of the likenesse that is between baptism and those things so that he also takes the phrase buried with Christ in that place to sound forth Sepelitionem externam internae simulacrum that external act of being buried in water by baptism that is the lively embleme of the internal Zanchy also upon Col. 2.12 writes thus viz. Regenerationis duae sunt partes c. of Regeneration there are two parts Mortification and vivification that is called burial with Christ this resurrection with Christ the sacrament of both these is baptism in which we are overwhelmed or buried and after that do come forth and rise again it may be said truly but sacramentally of all that are baptized that they are buried with Christ and raised with him yet really only of such as have true faith Now I appeal to all men whether he do not here expound Paul in the words buried with him in baptism and therein risen with him as speaking of the outward rite of baptism whereby the spiritual death and resurrection is resembled yea and so lively resembled that even such as have no more then the bare outward sign of water in baptism without the thing signifyed may be said though Sacramentally i. e and analogically and in respect of neer resemblance yet truly to be buried and raised with Christ this cannot be said of them that are but rantized onely for if in respect of any Mortification and vivification they may be denominated buried and raised with Christ yet that outward rite and ceremony cannot of it self denominate them so much as Sacramentally buried and raised with Christ for there is not so much as any likenesse of such things in it but he that hath the true outward rite of baptism i. e. dipping dispensed to him may be truly said to be buried and raised with Christ though he have no more for he hath the same visible overwhelming and burying in water and raising again in baptism which in the bare ordinance of baptism Christ himself had Bucan also that famous professor of Theology though he were so far benighted by being no doubt accustomed to sprinkling that he saw not the difference that is between it and dipping so far but that he supposed one might serve as well as the other yet cotes this sixt of the Rom. 3. and 4. to prove the Analogy that is between the sign and the thing signifyed in baptism in his 24 question in page 668. quae est analogia convenientia signi et rei signatae in Baptismo optima c. saith he What is that Analogy and Agreement which is between the sign and the thing signifyed in baptism Most apt forasmuch as in the same Manner as the water washes the body and clenses it from bodily impurities so the blood of Christ by its merits washes away our sins and spiritual impurities and his spirit sanctifyes us Moreover that immersion into water or aspersion doth most clearly denote Rantismon the sprinkling of the blood of Christ in order to remission of Sins and imputation of righteousnesse but the abode Quantumvis Momentanea quantula cunque saith Tilenus though never so small so that both these confute Mr Cooks fancy of a necessity of 3 daies abode under water if we will have Christs burial represented lively denotes the death burial of our corruption by vertue of the death burial of Christ that is the mortification of the old man but the rising out of the water doth most analâ—gically as it were object unto our eyes the resurrection of the new man or our vivification and newnesse of life and also our resurrection at the last day See how this man saving that he shuffles in aspersion and immersion as nothing differing doth own immersion into water abode under it rising out of it as the most admirable way of analogy to signifie and resemble what ever was to be resembled in baptism again in his 53 question p. 692. he quotes Rom. 6.4 saying with allusion to that Scripture that Predicatione sacramentali we are said in baptism to die to be buried to be raised with Christ and that baptism confirmes our faith in these things because it doth pingere mortem c. plainly paint out the death burial and resurrection of Christ and therein is documentum c. a certain lesson of our renovation and resurrection Now the reason of all such sacramentall locution whereby the things signified are said to be done in the outward sign is saith Paraeus analogia signi et rei signatae tale enim quiddam est res significata in suo genere quale quiddam est signum in suo genere c. The likenesse that is between the outward sign and the thing signified for such as the thing signified is in its kind just such a thing the sign is in its kind for as the water washes away the filth of the flesh so Christs blood our sinnes and in such a manner as the sign is outwardly dispensed so inwardly the thing signified as the minister acts without so God within c. As therefore God within by the power of Christs death and resurrection mortifies buries to sin and raises us to righteousnesse so must not the administrator without semblably bury the person in water in baptism unto death and raise him again unto life or in token of his resurrection to a new life if not where is then the analogie and if no analogie why are we said sacramentally in baptism to be buried and raised sith the cause of all such sacramental locution is because the sacraments are as Austin saies pictures of the things signified in them or is aspersion an action as answerable to a burial and resurrection and painting it out as lively as submersion and emersion do hic murus ahaeneus esto This I know as sorry a shift as it is must be your most inmost shelter when all is done for it can never be with any colour of reason nor is it by any reasonable men that I know save Mr. Cook and Mr. Blake denied but that baptism must exinstituto according to the word yea that word Rom. 6 Col. 2. bear analogy to and the
image of the thing signified yea and that very thing of all the rest which are represented therein viz. a death burial and resurrection by being under water and brought out of it again though by all that sprinkle t is most heedlessely thought and therefore as senselessely taught that rantism i. e. aspersion sets forth those to the life as much as baptism i. e. immersion or overwhelming Among the rest that write of baptism with any allusion to those Scriptures we are yet in hand with what learned Tilenus saith is worth your animadversion I confesse the man though in his judgement he seem clear for our manner of baptizing by immersion submersion and emersion as that which was the onely primitive action and institution yet is so far benighted by the mist and black vail of implicit faith which hath covered all Christendom as to suppose that aspersion may now serve the turn and that for sundry reasons some of which are apparently false and never a one of them worth a straw which I le repeat and answer as I go for saith he Ritus in baptismo est triplex immersio in aquam mora sub aquâ et emersio ex aquâ quam vis autem immersio usitatior olim fuerit presertim in Judea c. The outward ceremony to be used in baptism is threefold dipping into the water abode under the water and rising out of the water but howbeit this immersion was the usual way in former times especially in Judea and other warmer Countries rather then aspersion where note that he grants and who does not but Mr. Cook Mr. Baxter and Mr. Blake that having once denied it do strenuously resist it that the primitive way in Iudea and those Regions was totall dipping yet saith he the circumstance pertaines not to the substance of baptism which is false for I have proved that to be no baptism that is but sprinkling Secondly and sith the analogy of the Sacrament may be held out no lesse in aspersion then immersion which is as false and fond a fantasm as the other for sprinkling hath no more likenesse in it to a death a burial and a resurrection which though Mr. Cook and Mr. Blake deny it yet Tilenus himself abundantly pleads as I shall shew and that ex instituto from these Scriptures Rom. 6. Col. 2. ought to be represented in baptism then it hath likenesse to immersion submersion and emersion and that 's not so much as is between an apple and a nut Thirdly and sith in legall purifications sufficiebant 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sprinklings did suffice which if they did it was be cause these sprinklings with blood of the sacrafices which were as well on the mercy seat as on the people in token of onenesse or atonement between God and them were instituted directly and solely to point out the spiritual sprinkling of Christs blood on the mercy seat in heaven and on us here on earth in token of atonement which is not the thing onely mainly originally or immediately signified neither so as that it onely is to be remembred and resembled in baptism but the truth of the death burial and resurrection of Christ as the root whence all the other flows and therefore that reason though true yet is nothing to the purpose Fourthly sith immersion quoth he may indanger the health specially of such tender infants as are wont to be baptized now a daies which shewes that of old such were not baptized and that Christ never instituted this ordinance for infants who cannot bear the dispensation of it to them as it should be by right without danger of death but must of necessity and in charity and in humane prudence taking upon it to correct the divine wisdome of Christ and modle his ordinances more to their own ease have another thing i. e. Rantism universally dispensed to them instead of it Fiftly sith both these rites viz. sprinkling and dipping are expressed by the name of baptism Mat. 3.26 Luke 11.38 Mark the 7.4 then which nothing is more contrary to truth for though t is true that dipping is stiled baptism in Mat. 3.16 the place he brings to prove that where note again that Christ himself was baptized by submersion yet that 's not true that Rantism is any where called by the name of baptism yea in the very places he uses to prove that viz. Luke 11. Mark 7. t is most evident that t was more then sprinkling yea and no lesse then a dipping that is there called baptism for t was washing of hands which if ever any body living saw any but slovens wash when foul by no more then sprinkling two or three drops of water on them they have seen more then ever I saw to my remembrance since ever I were born and christned For these forenamed reasons saith Tilenus we suppose the Church by the law of charity and necessity may use which of these rites she pleases By all which it appears that though speculatively he saw submersion to be the way by institution unlesse out of necessity and charity the Church forbid it yet practically he was as you are for aspersion and this makes the more against you in this matter in that a man that retained sprinkling as you do sith t is the fashion in these colder climates should yet be constrained to confesse so much institution as he does for that way of truth I mean submersion which we contend for for seriously take away the wretched reasons which flattered him in to speak favorably of sprinkling he was as to the true way of total dipping caetera orthodoxus as orthodox as we desire him to be I le bestow the paines of rehearsing what he writes so far as concerns our purpose in very elogan◠Latine p. 884.886.889.890 of his disputations in as plain English as I am able Baptism saith he is the first sacrament of the New Testament instituted by Christ in which with a most pat and exact Analogy between the sign and the thing signifyed those that are in Covenant are by the Minister washed in water the outward rite of baptism is three fold immersion into the water abiding under the water and resurrection out of the water the form of baptism to wit internal and essential is no other then that Analogicall proportion which the signes keep with the things signifyed thereby for as the properties of the water in washing away the defilements of the body do in a most suitable similitude set forth the efficacy of Christs blood in blotting out of sins so dipping into the water doth in a most lively similitude set forth the mortification of the old man and rising out of the water the vivification of the New although that Levitical rite of sprinkling of blood Exod. 24.8 did more grossely resemble the blood of Christ yet that was not so exact a similitude as is in the water of our baptism That same plunging into the water holds forth to us that horrible gulfe of
not leaning nor yet lying for though Mr. Cook asserts with such confidence that lying was used by Christ t is undoubtedly utterly untrue what ere was the usual table gesture then is nothing to the point or if it be it is most evident it was sitting as it is now for if it was in some places the fashion to lean or ly on beds at great banquets as some tell us yet I am sure the table gesture was not lying nor leaning neither any otherwise then as we do viz. on one elbow or both when we please the Scripture saies all along that he sate Mr. Cook greeking it out in the margent as he does viz. Mat. 26.20 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Mark 14.18 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Luke 22.14 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Mat. 14.19 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 will not help him in what he saies for if any or all of these words viz. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do signifie to lean or lie down yet they all signifie to sit down also for they are all rendred by discumâ—o the plain english of which is to sit down and therefore also our translators do so English them and I would demand of him again as he does of A. R. p. 12. whether he thinks that our translators that have englisht them thus viz. he sate down and as they sate dovvn and he commanded the multitude to sit dovvn on the grasse knevv not hovv to render the originall in its proper signification as vvell as he Nor yet fiftly is the usuall manner of vvashing among us which you confesse is most fit to be used in baptism by povvring as vvell as dipping for povvring is and yet but in some cases onely as namely the vvashing the hands and in that very case but sometimes and seldome onely for mostly that is by dipping and this too but when the infusion is so large as totally to vvash the hands so vvashed a preparative to such a vvashing but a compleat true washing it is not of it self vvithout some subsequent act of rubbing vvhich you use not about infants faces but swilling in water is the most usual way of washing and a washing of itself some times and some times used without any after rubbing at all therefore this by Mr. Cooks own rule by right should be observed in baptism Sixthly whereas he argues from the custom of the present times to an exemption from the primitive customes and practise he might as well take upon him to say thus if any man contend for that faith way of worship way of baptism that was in the primitive and purest times and for a reformation of all things according to the word and example of the Churches the word speakâ— of it is true those Churches indeed worshipped thus were congregated thus ordered thus baptized thus viz. by dipping when they believed but sprinkling infants is the way and fashion now adaies and as for what was done of the Churches of old we have nothing to do with it and if any list to be contentions for it we have no such custom now nor the Churches of God! of which sure Mr. Cook cannot but be ashamed who hath covenanted to reforme according to the word â—itâ— a covenant keeper and a Custom-monger cannot possibly be denominated both of one Rantist Nay stay a little you 'l forget your own words I think anon did you not say your self even now that we must put difference between examples in substantiall matters and in matters meerly circumstantial we desire to keep as close as your selves can do to the primitive custom in things of weight and that there may be no variation from it without a violation of the will of Christ in any point that is positively commanded but I hope you will not make such a matter of moment of the manner of baptizing as if Chrst had injoined this way or that way of dispensation of it viz. dipping so strictly as that sprinkling may not be used nor yet sprinkling so as that dipping may not be used nay rather its a meer ceremony a prudentiall point in which the Church may use her discretion so as to dispense it either way as conveniency and charity may dispose her and no lesse is very well observed by Mr. Baxter p 135. Christ saith he hath not appointed the measure of water nor manner of washing no more then he hath appointed in the Lords supper what quantity of bread and wine each must take and as it would be but folly for any to think that men must needs fill themselves with bread and wine because it best signifies the fullnesse of Christ so it is no better to say that we must needs be washed all over because it best signifies our burial with Christ c. Christ told Peter that the washing of his feet was enough to clense all a little may signifie as well as much as a clod of earth doth in possession of much lands and a corn of pepper signifies our homage for much and much to such a purpose are those words of Mr. Cook p. 20. some of which having been quoted and spoken to before though not so satisfactorily but that they sway with me still I am almost loath to repeat them yet sith they be so among the other I can hardly decline the mentioning them once more by your leave in answer to the objection that a little water doth not so fitly and perfectly represent as dipping and plunging sith in the one the whole body is washed in the other the face or head only He saies first that the Scripture no where requires the washing of the whole body in baptism Secondly that with as good reason one may plead thus that at the supper it is most convenient that every Communicant should receive his belly full of bread and wine and take as long as stomach and head will hold to signify the full refreshment of the soul with the body and blood of Christ but who saies he would endure such reasoning Thirdly These outward Elements of water bread and wine are for speciall use and to signify special things so that if there be the truth of things the quantity is not to be respected further then is sufficient for its end namely to represent the spiritual grace and that it be neither so little as not to represent nor so much as to take of the heart from the spirituall to the corporal thing not the washing away the filth of the body in baptism nor the glutting or satisfying of the natural Appetite in the Lords Supper is to be looked after but the washing and refreshing of the Soul which may well be represented by the sprinkling of a little water eating and drinking of a little bread and wine In circumcision a little skin was cut of You see what these worthy men say you need not be so hot as you are for the ceremony if so be you keep the substance Baptist. I have received as much as all this comes to long
enemy came and sowed among the wheat i. e. in the same parts and places of the world Towns Countreyes c. locally considered the children of the wicked one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the same as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 Thes. 2. that wicked false worshippers of God after their own inventions mens precepts not his will people and priests grown up into a Church worship ministery religion insensibly by little and little from false principles and foundations custome forefathers prudential additions of orthodox men c. not the pure naked word it self a people born to their religion yea their christian religion in the way of flesh and blood and the will of man of the Pope and councells constituting and civil powers from them commanding not of God by the word of truth The Enemy that sowed them is the devil for he indeed filled the whole world even the whole Christian world with false worshippers false principled Clergy men and when he could not kill the wheat the Christians in the ten persecutions in his open war against them by the mouth of thâ— beast or empire heathen wherein he prosecuted them under their own names because Constantine a Christian was come now to the crown then he turned Christian himself and would have Christianity imbraced by all meanes by a law and sowed the seed of false principles of stablishing Christian religion as the onely religion before which all other shall now down promoting Christianity in the shell that he might kill it in the substance causing great honours revenues Peters patrimonies to be given in favour of Christianity from which principles selfish ambitious lazy luxurious Ministers as the Pope formall meer nominal Christians grew up and overtopt the truth and true Saints that kept close to the truth in the midst of all this mock shew wherin the devil hath kept an apish imitaon of Christs church all along and ministry ordinances baptism supper church censure but all corrupt and trod the holy city to the ground Rev. 11. the same subtle one now he sees his trade of forcing men from the truth by the principle of conformity to the false Christianity and the old Spiritualty fail is now shifting himself undoubtedly in to another Spiritualty that will as much corrupt delude the world by the principle of liberty of conscience abused and turnd by the Ranter into license though we who plead for liberty of truth say in maxima libertate est minima licentia in the greatest liberty of conscience to serve God there 's the least licence to serve the devil by our lusts and corrupt our selves in what we know naturally as bruit beasts nor is that conscience that makes conscience of nothing The harvest is the end of the world the reapers the Angels by whom at that time Christ will throughly purge his floor and gather his wheat into his barn and burn up all chaff Tares husks weeds bryers thornes idolators hypocrites subtle seducers and sinful subverters of the truth whoever shall appear to have been such and all other trash with unquenchable fire Matth. 3.12 Mean while I say still Tares may stand among wheat locally in one Country yet not lawfully in one church society Weeds and flowers Roses and nettles Lillies and thornes Vines and brambles Idolatours and true worshippers Believers and infidells the children of the Kingdome and of the wicked one the Temple of God and idols Christs church and the Devils chappel discovered hypocrites and sincere Saints Christians of all sorts save such whose very principle prohibits toleration and they make the case uncapable to be which will win or loose all stand alone or not at all as whether the P P Priesthoods do not or at least did not let all men judge Jews Turks and Pagans may be lawfully allowed their religions living in subjection under one civil power if the whole world were but one Monarchy in one World in one Field or Common-wealth though not in one Garden not in one Vineyard or Church and may not be made to be of the true religion whether they will or no yea I appeal to the conscience of any sober minded man whether if Pontius Pilate whom the Scripture stiles the Governour of Iudaea and a lawful Governour over the church a very heathen may be but no heathen lawfully a member much lesse an officer or a Governour in the Church whether I saie if Pilate should have been converted by Christ at the bar while he sate on the bench and truely believed in him it would have pleased Christ that he should have improved his civil power to have established Christianity in Iudaea and forced all men under penalty to believe in christ and renounce all meer Jewish worships or whether it had been as lawful a decree in Augustus Caesar to have forced all men to be Christians under a penalty as t was in him to issue out a decree that all the world should be taxed I suppose not but that he must have left all to their waies and have practised it himself and protected it from injury and propounded it to all in way of preaching but not prosecuting any by his civil power if they would yet remain Jewes or heathens and Christ might as easily have made Emperors his Disciples had he meant that the Gospel should be established by civil power And this is for the further safegard and advantage to the wheat as I sayd before for Christ gives this reasâ—n why he would have the tares to be let alone least by rooting out the tares the wheat be rooted out also for if all religions may stand then the true one may stand in quiet without disturbance if all people may walk every one in the name of his God Mich. 4.5 then we may walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever but if all be beaten down in a state and but one stand ten thousand to nothing it is not the truth that is there established for truth may be trodden down but treads not down others in a violent way of persecution Besides if true Religion establish it self alone in some States by forcing men to subject to it its gives a bad example to false religions in other states that think themselves in the right to do the like and force men that love the truth there to submit to them and so there 's quit for quo and no end of disturbances they saying that we are Tares we that they are and so there is nothing but pulling up by the roots if toleration be not tolerated as the most peacemaking principle and so in these bussles if the wheat grow alone some where it must fall elsewhere even every where where the tares are resolved to stand alone and so Homo Homini Lupus Christianus Christiano Diabolus men must be wolves and devils each to other throughout the world Besides if the power in any place be ignorant and under an erring conscience that conscientia errans
you could tell how become guilty of the body and blood of the Lord however repent or repent not this I say unto you from the Lord that your bloody principle of persecution for conscience and forced conformity to your foolish forms canons creeds chatechisms dictates directories shall utterly perish from off the ear h. I wish the Independents for their turn 's next look to it in time and take heed of turning aside too much from that precious principle of depending upon no King but Christ in conscience cases neither state Councells nor Church councells nor Classes save onely for conscience to Christ to be subject freely in all meer civill cases to the one and for cognizance sake to consult in meer church and conscience cases with the other and whom else they please keeping Church and State as distinct as t is possible which the CCClergy have confounded so together that we have lost the true Peculiarities of either and as not suffering such sawcy doings as to have most general Assemblies of the Kirk quâ Church Assemblies to be tampering at all with state affairs so not troubling any officers of state qua State officers no not the highest nor Committees nor Sheriffs to wearinesse with representations of things pertaing purely to churches and church orderes expecting no more then a passive permissive influence from them to the church-ward i. e. to let all Churches and all religions Jewes themselves alone to their light till they see the true one so be they live faithfully under them and quietly peaceably and civilly one by another but me thinks I smell a mixt mongrel Independency too much on foot and creeping on an Indepency by the halves a Presbyterian Independency Independency too dependant in church work upon the state for state pay enquiring after parish maintenance telling some truth and taking as much tith as they can lay their hands on lending liberty to themselves to have no supper in the parishes when they please yet resolving to make the people pay for it so long as they preach whether they eat a bit of it at all yea or no A thing I cannot well tell what to call it that has a smack too much of Smectimnuus and yet t is not so tyrannical neither nor yet so tender towards a toleration of all consciences and Religions though of all tender conscienced Christians as that the poor Jew or natural Israelite can have any room or creep hole by it into the Common-wealth in order to his conversion he must keep out unlesse he be so converted before he come as to resolve heel own Christ and not speak against him as not the Christ which what power in any State under heaven can banish a Jew out of any nation for doing I plainly know not an Independency that is willing to let Israel go but not to let another Isâ—ael come into the Land so as to promulgate his principle which I'm sure is contrary to the principles of Christian Religion or if the Jew may deny Christ and yet live in the world in quiet why not another unlesse the word can gain him to the belief of it as well as he Independents a word or two with you by the way no hurt I hope if you will have but patience I find proposals presented Feb. 11. 1651. that make me amazâ—d to think that they should come from Independents for I took Independents till of late to be genuine Independents indeed but I see there 's nothing but may have something like it which is not the same and such is your Semi-demiindependency to me For supply of all parishes in England with Orthodox Ministers it s propounded that the Sheriff of each County give account to the Committee what parish hath no Minister â—hat maintenance each such parish hath what Ministers that reside in each County have no livings and such of them as are Orthodox be placed there as the â—ommittee shall think sit For settling right constituted Churches that all Churches that are or shall be gathered signifie to the Committee of the Vniversities or elsewhere whom they have or shall choose for their Pastors and that such and such onely shall be declared right constituted Churches whose Pastor shall be approved by the Committee to be able godly and orthodox Fye Fye Sirs that you will still have such a minglement of Sheriffs Committees Ministers Churches in a kind of Omnigatherum about the Gospell and your Churchwork and that you will trouble the Sheriffs to find what pay is in parishes what parishes want Ministers and what Ministers lack means if your Ministers lack meanes cannot they look aftâ—r it themselves and bestow themselves in some honest calling or other to get a living out on or if they cannot cannot your Churches see to them a little what they lack or do you lack to have the tithes and parish pay turned ore to you now as the Presbyters gaped after augmentations from the Bâ—shops Deans and chapters lands if you do I hope the State will save your longing as they did theirs and take them sheer away root and branch and let those Churches that have Ministers maintain them if they need and let the Gospel be preached freely by Messengers from Churches to the Gentiles to the world without charging them with it till converted to it for such you suppose the nation to be now as well as we and not a Church of Christ why else do you gather Churches of Christ out of it will you gather Churches of Christ out of Churches of Christ what rule have you for that surely Churches must be gathered out of the world and if so that the nation be no true constituted Church of Christ it s no true Church of Christ for Christ hath no falsely constituted true Churches that I know of and so her Ministers no true Ministers of Christ for Christs Ministers are not Ministers of no Church but such as came remotely as to their ordination and parish posture baptism and all from the Pope whom if you also look upon with such favourable construction as to own him and his ordinations and his baptism and administrations and what the Prelate and Presbyter sucks in a way of succession from thence as Apostolical so as to stand Ministers and baptized by it I shall think the world goes round then indeed and that whoever chances to get on horseback and sit in the Saddle here in England whether Prelate Presbyter or Independent they cannot chuse for customes sake but face about still and ride back at least a little way toward Rome or do you hold as some Presbyters do your ordination O Independents from the Magistrate if so he was ordained a minister of God in other cases but neither per se nor per alios to ordain and authorize Ministers for Christ Churches yet me thinks I sent you comming somewhat neer that when you propose onely that such shall be declared right constituted Churches whose Pastor shall be approved by