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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A28837	A conference with Mr. Claude, minister of Charenton, concerning the authority of the church by James Benigne Bossuet, Bishop of Meaux ... ; faithfully done into English out of the French original.; Conference avec M. Claude, ministre de Charenton, sur la matière de l'eglise. English	Bossuet, Jacques Bénigne, 1627-1704.; Claude, Jean, 1619-1687.	1687 (1687)	Wing B3780; ESTC R23256	107,935	138

carefully discern which is the true Church and that it is the Company of the Faithful which agree to follow GODs Word and the pure Religion that depends on it Whence they conclude Article XXVIII That where GODs Word is not received nor any Profession made of subjecting themselves to it and where there is no use of the Sacraments one cannot to speak properly judge that there is a Church 'T is evident by all these Passages and by the common Practice of the Pretended Reformed that the proper natural and generally us'd Signification of the Word Church is to take it for the exterior Society of GODs People amongst whom thô there be found some Hypocrites and Reprobates their Malice say they cannot efface the Title of the Church Article XXVII That is The Hypocrites mix'd in the Exterior Society of GODs People cannot take from it the Title of the true Church provided it be always vested with these exterior Marks the making Profession of GODs Word and the Use of the Sacraments as is said in Article XXVIII This is the Acceptation of the Word Church when we speak simply naturally and properly without Contention or Dispute and if this be the ordinary manner of taking this Word we have reason to say that 't was in this Sense the Apostles made use of it in their Creed where they were to speak in the most ordinary and simple manner as being to inclose in few Words the Confession of the Fundamentals of the Faith In effect this Word Church has in the common Discourse of all Christians been taken to signify this exterior Society of GODs People When by this Word Church is intended the Society of the Predestinate 't is so express'd and they say the Church of the Predestinate When by this Word is meant the Assembly and Church of the First-born Heb. xii v. 23. which are written in Heaven 't is expresly nam'd as we see in St. Paul He takes here the Word Church in a less used Signification for the City of the Living GOD the Heavenly Jerusalem where is an innumerable company of Angels and Spirits of just Men made perfect that is for Heaven where the holy Souls are gathered together Wherefore he adds a word to mark out this Church that is the Church of the First-born who have preceded their Brethren in Glory But when we use the word Church simply without adding any thing the common Practice of all Christians not excepting the pretended Reformed themselves takes it for to signify the Assembly the Society the Communion of those that confess the true Doctrin of JESUS CHRIST And whence proceeds this Custom of all Christians but from the Holy Scripture where we see in effect the word Church commonly taken in this Sense so that this cannot be deny'd to be the ordinary and natural Signification of this Word The word Ecclesia which we render Church originally signifies an Assembly and was principally attributed to the Assemblies heretofore held by the People for the discussing of publick Affairs And this word is us'd in this Sense in the nineteenth Chapter of the Acts when the People of Ephesus were assembled in Fury against St. Paul Act. XIX v. 32. v. 39. v. 40. the Assembly Ecclesia was confus'd And again If ye enquire any thing concerning other Matters it shall be determin'd in a lawful Assembly Ecclesia And in fine When he had thus spoken he dismiss'd the Assembly Ecclesiam This was the use of the word Ecclesia Church amongst the Greeks and in Gentilism The Jews and Christians afterwards made use of it to signify the Assembly the Society the Community of GODs People which makes Profession to serve him There is none but knows that famous Version of the Seventy who translated the old Testament into Greek some Ages before the coming of JESUS CHRIST Of above fifty Passages where this Word is found to be made use of in their Translation there is not any one in which it is not taken for some visible Assembly and very few in which it is not taken for the exterior Society of GODs People In this sense also St. Stephen makes use of it when he says that Moses was in the Church in the Wilderness Acts VII v. 38. with the Angel which spake to him calling by this name Church according to the Usage receiv'd amongst the Jews the visible Society of GODs People The Christians took this word from the Jews and kept it in the same Sense using it to signify the Assembly of those that confess'd JESUS CHRIST and made Profession of his Doctrine This is what is simply call'd the Church or the Church of GOD and JESUS CHRIST And of above an hundred Passages where this word is made use of in the New Testament there are scarce two or three where this Signification is contested by the Ministers and even in the Places where they contest it 't is manifest they do it without reason For Example they will not have this place of St. Paul where he says Eph. V. v. 27. that JESVS CHRIST presented to himself a glorious Church not having Spot or Wrinkle or any such thing but that it is holy and without Blemish This Place I say they will not have it possible to be understood of the visible Church nor yet of the Church on Earth because the Church so consider'd is so far from being without Blemish that it stands in daily need of this Prayer Forgive us our Sins And I say on the contrary that to affirm this glorious and unspotted Church is not the visible Church is manifestly to contradict the Apostle For see v. 25 26. of what Church St. Paul speaks 'T is of that which JESVS CHRIST loved and gave himself for it that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of Water by the Word This Church washt in Water and purify'd by Baptism this Church sanctify'd by the word of Life whether by that of Preaching or by that which is made use of in the Sacraments this Church is without doubt the visible Church The holy Society of the Predestinate is not excluded from it GOD forbid They are the most noble part of it but they are compris'd in this whole They are there instructed by the Word they are there purify'd by Baptism and often also some of the Reprobate are employ'd in these Ministeries They must then be consider'd in this Passage not as making a Body apart but as making the fairest and most noble part of this exterior Society 'T is this Society which the Apostle calls the Church JESUS CHRIST without doubt loves it for he has given it Baptism he has shed his Blood to assemble it there is not any one either call'd justify'd or baptiz'd in this Church who is not called justify'd and baptiz'd in the Name and by the Merits of JESUS CHRIST This Church is glorious because she glorifies GOD because she declares to all the Earth the Glory of JESUS CHRISTs Gospel

and daily admonisht the People by the Mouth of his Prophets Jer. xi v. 7. xxv v. 3 4. the forciblest expression that can be imagin'd to shew that the true Faith was never so much as one moment without Publication nor the People without advertisement And that 't was so we just now saw how in all the Reign of Ahaz Isaiah ceas'd not to prophesy and under Manasseh when the Abomination seem'd to be mounted to the highest since neither the Penitence of that King nor the Holiness of his Grandchild Josiah could revoke the Sentence given against this People GOD always remembring the Abominations of Manasseh in this time I say we have seen that GOD made his Prophets speak and that a great part of the People publickly follow'd them appears in that this impious Prince fill'd Jerusalem with innocent Blood 2 Kin. xxi v. 16. a certain sign that he found a great resistance to his Idolatries 'T is also held that he caus'd Isaiah to be put to Death as his Predecessors had done the other Prophets who reprehended them and this History is conserv'd in the ancient Tradition conformable to the Word of our Lord who upbraids the Jows with having kill'd the Prophets and to the Discourse of St. Stephen who says Mat. xxiii v. 31 37. Act. vii v. 52. That there was not any Prophet but they persecuted These Prophets made a part of GODs People these Prophets kept a considerable part both of the Priests and People in their Duty these Prophets who confirm'd their Mission by visible Miracles hindred the Corruption from gaining all and whilst a terrible Multitude and perhaps the Gross of the Synagogue was drawn unto Idolatry they kept the Tradition of the Truth in the People of Israel Ezekiel who appear'd a little after shews it when he speaks of the Priests the Levites Ezek. xliv v. 15. the Sons of Zadok that kept the charge of the Sanctuary when the Children of Israel went astra● They proceeds he shall come near to me to minister unto me and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the 〈◊〉 and the Blood saith the Lord GOD. This Succession not only that of the Flesh but also that of the Faith and the Ministery was conserv'd in those Priests and these Levites whom GODs Grace and the Prophet's Preaching had retain'd in the Service And 't is to be observ'd That GOD never made this Ministery of the Prophets more illustrious than when Impiety seem'd to have gain'd the upper hand so that in the time when the ordinary means of instructing the People was not destroy'd but obscur'd GOD prepar'd the extraordinary and miraculous Means To this may be added That this extraordinary Means to wit the Prophetical Ministery was before the Captivity in a manner ordinary with GODs People where the Prophets made as 't were an Order always subsisting whence GOD continually drew Divine Men by whose Mouth he spake loudly and publickly to all his People From the Return of the Captivity to JESUS CHRIST there was no more any publick and lasting Idolatry We know what hapned under Antiochus the Illustrious but we know also the Zeal of Mattathias and the great number of true Believers that joyn'd to his House with the famous Victories of Judas Maccabeus and his Brethren under them and their Successors the Profession of the true Faith continu'd to JESUS CHRIST At last the Pharisees introduc'd into the Religion and Worship many Superstitions As the Corruption was about to prevail JESUS CHRIST appear'd in the World 'Till his coming the Religion was preserv'd the Doctors of the Law had many pernicious Maxims and Practices which crept in and got ground by little and little they became common but they were not pass'd into Doctrines of the Synagogue Wherefore JESUS CHRIST also said Mat. xxiii v. 2 3. The Scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses Seat All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe that observe and do but do not ye after their Works He ceas'd not to honour the Ministery of the Priests He sent the Lepers to 'em according to the Prescript of the Law He frequented the Temple and reprehending the Abuses continud always joyn'd to the Communion of GODs People and the Order of the Publick Ministery In fine the time of the Fall and Reprobation of the ancient People foretold by the Scriptures and Prophets came when the Synagogue condemn'd JESVS CHRIST and his Doctrine But then JESVS CHRIST had appear'd he had begun in the Bosom of the Synagogue to assemble his Church which was to subsist for ever 'T is then manifest first That there was always a visible Body of GODs People continu'd by an uninterrupted Succession from the Communion of whom 't was never lawful to separate Secondly Always a Succession of High Priests and Priests descended from Aaron and Levites issued from Levi so that there was never any need of GODs raising up People in an extraordinary manner Thirdly 'T is no less evident That the true Faith has always been publickly declar'd and that there cannot be any one moment assign'd in which the Profession of it has not been as clear as the Light of the Sun a thing which shews how much they are deceiv'd who believe that for to keep up the exterior State of the Church 't is sufficient that one can name from time to time pretended Teachers of the Truth For if there be any Time that the Profession of Faith has ceas'd in the Church her Condition is so much worse than that of the Synagogue as she loses from that moment the Succession as I erewhile said After I had spoken these things there was some time employ'd in passing them over again and in the mean time the Countess de Roye came to tell us That Mr. Claude consented to the Conference which if I lik'd it should be at her House about Three a Clock I Was at the Rendez-vous II. The Conference where I met Mr. Claude We began by mutual Civilities and he on his part testify'd a great Respect After this I entred into the Matter by demanding the Explication of the four Acts transcrib'd in my Book and mention'd here before After I had in few words explain'd the Difficulty as it is propos'd in the Exposition and repeated what I had said to Mademoiselle de Duras I added That Mr. Claude ought to be so much the more ready to answer it in that what I said was not at all new to him since in all appearance the Treatise of the Exposition had faln into his hands and that 't was a great satisfaction in an Entertainment of the Nature of this to be assur'd there would be no Surprise Mr. Claude took up the Discourse and having reiterated all his former Civilities in terms yet more obliging he declar'd at first that all I had objected from their Discipline and Synods in my Treatise and also at present was very sincerely related without any alteration of the Words