Campian you are too sparing and scant in the point repeate and say that which goeth before As they did eate Christ tooke bread he blessed it he brake it and gaue it to his disciples and said Take eate this is my body and he tooke the cup and gaue thankes and gauâ— it to them saying Drinke yee all of this for this is my blood c. So now Campian I will deale with you from the words which are now adioyning What was it Christ tooke you will say bread what brake he bread what gaue he to his disciples bread whâ—â— did he bid them take and eate bread what said he was his bodie was it any other thing â—hen the very same bread which he tooke into his hands brake and l DVR He tooke bread but he gaue not bread to his disciples but his bodie WHIT. pag. 183. Then one body of Christ is made two one sitting among them another deliuered vnto them yea as many bodies as there were Communicants And the disciples did receiue chaw and eate him whom they saw sâ—ting with them but wheÌ„ was the chaÌ„ge made for before he had spoken these operatiue words This is my bodie he brake it gaue it â—o his disciples either these words make not the change or he gaâ—e to his disciples bread vnchanged DVR â—f there was no change then the blessing waâ— without profit WHIT. pag. 185. As if all blessings were without profit if they change not the nature of things God blessed our first parents Gen. 1.28 Noah and his Sonnes Gen. 9.1 Christ his disciples at his departure Luk. 24.51 was their blessing without profit because they changed not their natures and substance Besides to blesse is nothing else but to giue thankes as Luke hath it which was done by words before not by those This is my body gaue to his disciples Therfore that when Christ saith This is my body this is my blood is as much as if he said This bread is my body and this cup is my blood But the bread and the body of Christ the cup and the blood of Christ are they not differing and wel-nigh contrary Then tell vs how they can affirme or be spoken one of another vnlesse you will admit a Tropicall speech Yet Campian to vse your owne words the matter gocth hard on your side and maketh very plainly and manifestly for vs. For Christ saith plainly that the bread is his body which cannot be true without a figure that bread made to eate should be properly Christs body And this is that figure which we find so often in the Scriptures specially when any Sacramâ—nt is spoken of So in Genesis cap. 17. the Lord saith of Circumcision m DVâ— This is neither heere nor any where else to be found in the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 173. Maâ—ke well This is my couenant which you shall keepe that euery manchild be circumcised what I pray you is This but that euery man-child be circumcised and â—o you haue it in this place directly but see Gen. 17.13 My couenant shall be in your flesh what is this but circumcision reade Act. 7.8 DVR This signifieth not circumcision but agreement or couenant betwixt God aâ—d Abraham touching circumcision WHIT. That agreemenâ— was it the couenant or not â—f it was then see what a goodly sentence you haue made This my couenant is my couenant But if it was not theÌ„ you must needs acknowledge a Meâ—â—nymy that is that the name of thâ— thing is giuen to the signe howsoeuer then it must be vnderstood by a figure This is the couenant betwixt me and Gen. 17.10 you Yet Circumcision was not the couenant but the signe of the couenant Now tell vs I pray you what difference betwixt these two This is my couenant this is my body The former you cannot deny but must be vnderstood by a Metonymy and can any man make doubt but that the latter likewise is to be so expounded The like we reade of the Lambe Exod. 12.11 n DVR These words are not to be found there WHIT. pag. 174. Obserue the words Thus shall you eate it for it is the Lords Passouer That which was to be eaten is called the Lords Passeouer Now they weâ—e coÌ„manded to eate the Lambe reade Exod 12. veâ—se 27. 〈◊〉 is the Lords Passeouer And yet the Lamb was not the Passeouer but a memoriall of it like to this is that of S. Paul o DVR There is no figure in the word Christ but in rocke for the rocke was the signe of Christ WHIT. pag. 175. Then you acknowledge a Metonymy in the wordâ— because the rock was the Sacâ—amenâ— of Christ And if heere there be a Trope then why not in these words of this SacrameÌ„t The rocke was Christ. 1. Cor. 10.1 Now as the rocke was Christ so is this mysticall bread the body of Christ Thus as yet you see the matter is neuer the better on your side haue you any thing else The Gospell say you makes for vs S. Paul accordeth also Nay S. Paul vtterly ouerthroweth your opinion 1. Cor. 11. for when he speaketh of this Sacrament in one continued speech he vseth the word p DVR S. Paul callâ—th it so because it vvas novv Christ vvho vvaâ— the liuing bread WHIT. pag. 188. many of your fellowes interpret it far otherwise yea your shâ—â—t S. Paul ouerthroweth 1. Cor. 10.16 The bread vvhich vve breake is it not the Comunion of the body of Christ Now not Christ was brokeÌ„ but the bread bread foure seuerall times and that after Consecration so that it appeareth â—earely to haue the proper nature of bread though it be said to be the body of Christ But yet you adde The words the sentences the whole conuection of Scripture doe often most reuerently repeate the bread the wine a notable miracle heauenly food his flesh his bodie his blood In good earnest you discourse of these things with great reuerence and shamefastnes For you would proue that in this Sacrament there remaineth neither bread nor wine but certeine qualities of these things hanging in the ayre and voidâ— of the things themselues And for any notable miracle I acknowledge none but answere you with Austen They may be honoured as religious things De Trinit lib. 3. c. 10. but they cannot be wondred at as q DVR Augustine speaketh of thesâ— miracles which are made of a bodily substancâ— and so are sensible novv no such thing is seene in the Eucharist WHIT. pag. 191. But if there were a true miracle it would be sensible and haue the witnesse of the senses as all othâ—r miracles of the Scriptures haue For thingâ— that are hid saith Augustine are not miracles He writ three bookes of the miracles of the Scriptures in which he hath not spoken one word of this miracle Therefore he knew not the Popish Transubstantiation minacles No man euer denied but that in the Sacrament heauenly food is both
prepared and offered to all the godly But those heauenly and holy banquets whereby our soules are nourished vp to eternall life you make prophane and common when you imagine that Christ may be receiued and eaten like other meates aswell of the r DVR Not vve but the Scripture the Fathers and reason it selfe doth affirme it but speciallie S. Paul 1. Cor. 11.27 Whosoeuer eateth this bread WHIT. pag 195. None of these affirme it and least of all S. Paul for he saith not vvhosoeuer eateth the body of Christ but vvhosoeuer eateth this bread wicked as of the most deuout men in the world which is an horrible opinion senselesse and vnsound For that you adde of flesh body and blood I confesse for being the Sacraments of these things they haue their names giuen vnto them for signes of things saith Augustine are said to be the things of which they are signes But say you heere is nothing figuratiue nothing obscure by doubtfull speeches True it is there is neuer a riddle in the words no obscuritie For the obscurity that is is not in the words but in your interpretation of them which ten Apolloes cannot so vnfold and open that things might agree and answere fitly one to another What resteth yet is it not that at length wee find out some certeine and true sense of these words I hope say you Antiquitie may be heard I verily in this controuersie will reiect no Antiquitie no Councell no auncient Father neither will I refuse any monument of true Antiquitie For that same reuerend hoarie head of Fathers which you speake of could neuer come to the knowledge of this new doctrine of Transubstantiation lately hatched If those holy Fathers and reuerend Elders did now liue they would neuer acknowledge this moÌ„ster nor indure the sight of it but iudge it worthy to be abandoned into the vtmost parts of the world Whereas then you say They cannot away with that They say then they are betrayed You trifle and say nothing to the purpose for we can away well with this triall and feare no treachery in it But will call you very willingly to this reuerend Antiquitie as to a barre of triall Therefore if you please we will demaund of those reuerend Fathers what they iudge to be the meaning of those words which you haue produced for example sake And seeing there is no necessity to collect all their sayings some few of them shall speake to giue vs a tast of the rest Å¿ DVR Tertullian speaketh not of that bread vvhich Christ in his last supper made his body but of another bread vvhich vvas the figure of his body vndâ—r the lavv WHIT. pag. 2â—0 The plaâ—e sheweth very plainly that he speaketh of no other bread then of thaâ— which Christ had said this is my body and which in the night he vvas betrayed he tooke brake and gaue to his disciples Tell vs where vnder the law Christ euer said thus or did thus with any bread DVR Bread wine in the old Testament vvere Figures of Christs body blood therfore in the nevv Testament of the bread must the true body of Christ be made of the vâ—ine his blood WHIT. pag. 202. It will well follow froÌ„ this that Christ must haue in the new Testament a true body true blood but it cannot be inforced hereupoÌ„ that it must be made of bread wine As if because their Sacramenâ—s were figures theâ—fore ours must be traÌ„substantiated into the things themselues Then will it follow that because the flood the â—edsea the cloud were types of our Bapâ—isme therefore it should not be a figure or a signe but be turned into thâ— very blood of Christ Tertullian saith Tertul. lib. 4 contra Marc. Christ professed his desire to eate the Passâ—ouer as his owne and hauing taken bread and distributed it to his disciples hee made it his bodie by saying this is my body that is the figure or signe of my body You acknowledge both Tertullians words and his meaning t DVR Augustine signifieth the SacrameÌ„t by the name of figure WHIT pag 204. It is true Christ gaue the SacrameÌ„t to his diâ—ciâ—les but Augustine vseth not the word Sacrament but figure to shew that as no figuâ—e or signe is the thing wherof it is a fi uâ—e so the bread is not properly the body nor the wâ—ne the blood of Christ Augustine saith August in Psal 3. Christ admitted Iudas to that banquet in which he commended to his disciples the figure of his body and blood In another place also u DVR Augustine disputeth in this pâ—ace against the Maâ—â—chees carpâ—ng at Moses vvords The blood is the soule of the beast And saith it is so spoke as the SacrameÌ„t of the body of Christ is called his body the blood is called the soule because it is as the signe of the soule which lieth hid in the blood as the Sacramet is the signe of the body of Christ vvhich is conteined in it WH T pag. 206. Nay I infer the coÌ„trary as the soule is not the blood wheÌ„ it is oâ—â— of the vaines may be eaten so Christ is not in the Sacrament And as the blood is the signe of the soule which is not in it so is the Sacrament of the bodie which is not conteined in it The Lord verily doubted not to speake thus Contra. Adimant cap. 12. This is my body when he gaue the signe of his body And that you may vnderstand that this was Augustines perpetuall tenor in interpreting of these words and that he determined farre diuerse to you touching the eating of Christs flesh heare what he saith in his bookes of Christian Instruction where he giueth diuers precepts for the vnderstanding of the phrase of the Scriptures If saith he any sentence there seeme to coÌ„maund any impious act De doctr Christ. lib. 3. cap. 16. or to forbid any duty tending to the profit or good of others it is a figuratiue speech vnlesse saith Christ you eate the flesh of the Son of man and drinke his blood you haue no life in you It seemeth to inioyne an * DVR Augustine did not thinke that it vvas an heynous thing to eate the flesh of Christ but to cate 〈◊〉 as the Capernites thought that is torne and rent in peeces WHIT. pag. 209. You answere somewhat as touching the fact but nothing for the figure But Augustine saith there is a figure which cannot be if the flesh of Christ be either eaten as you say whole or chopt in peeces as the Capernites affirme And if it be an horrible fact to eate the smale parts of Christs boâ—ie is it not a more beastly bloody thing to deuoure the whole body of Christ at one morâ—elâ— DVR It is no more heynous for a Christian to eate the flesh of Christ whole then it was for the blessed Virgin to conceiue to nourish it in her wombe WHIT. pag. 211. What is this
and Page 210 14 There is a negatiue ignorance which is not sinne Page 208. 209 15 Châ—â—â—t â—â—oke vpon him the punishment due to sinne both â—gnorance and dâ—ath Page â—â—9 16 That which raised such feare and horror in Christ was not the feare of naturall death but the bitter wrath of God against mankind pag. 210. and 211 17 What the hell was which Christ suffered and as man feared pag. 211. nota 18 Christ suffered in soule as well as in bodie pag. 211. 212 19 Christ did not goe into Limbus after his death pag. 214 20 Many auncient Creedes both in the Romane and East Church haue not this article of Christs descension into heil pag. 215. nota 21 What the image of God was in man before his fall pag. 216 22 The whole image of God is not razed in man but some reliques are remaining Naturall gifts are corrupted supernaturall distinguished pag. 216. 217 23 That which is in the regenerate of themselues is corrupt that which they haue from God is contrarie to their corruption pag. 218 24 Sinne is not a substance nor a meere priuation but an accident and a corrupt habit like to a disease pag. 220 25 Concupiscence is sinne and so iudged by Augustine vpon great and weightie reason ibid. nota 26 Sometime he calleth it no sinne in opposition to actuall sin pag. 221 nota 27 Sinnes are not equall neither doe Protestants so teach they all deserue eternall death though some more some lesse pag. 221. 222 28 Grace is double either the free mercie and loue of God towards vs which is without vs in God or those gifts which flow from this grace and this is in vs. pag. 223 224 29 Christs righteousnes is onputed to vs as our sinnes to him Christ hauing paid our debt the paiment must needs be ours by imputation and if Papists allow the imputation of the righteousnes of Saints why should they so much scorne the imputation of Christ his righteousnes ibid. nota 30 Charitie cannot iustifie vs because it is imperfect for that which is faultie cannot iustifie vs. ibid. 31 Imputed and infused righteousnes goe together in one and the some man Iustification and sanctification are distinguished in the word pag. 225. nota 32 The regenerate by grace cannot so resist their temptations that they should neuer sinne as the example of S. Paul and others manifest pag. 226. 227. nota 33 Our righteousnes is a reall relation 228. nota 34 All our righteousnes being stained cannot iustifie vs and faith hope and charitie being imperfect cannot doe it pag. 229 35 Christ is he that couereth vs by whose righteousnes wee are adorned Our righteousnes is the couering of the fault pag. 231 36 Faith alone iustifieth but it is not alone when it doth iustifie pag. 232 37 The reasons why wee are exhorted to performe workes and obedience as also that wee are commanded to apprehend Christs righteousnes by faith pag. 230 38 A man ought and may be certaine of his saluation by the certaintie of faith pag. 232. 233. nota 39 Many are deceiued with a conceit of faith but he that hath it knoweth certainly that he hath it pag. 233. nota 40 From Gods predestination a man may be sure of his perseuerance so the Fathers teach yet a man must vse the meanes pag. 234. 235 nota 41 The number of Sacraments are but two in the Church the noueltie of the other fiue not any antiquitie for them and pregnant reasons against them pag. 237. nota 42 Hugo de S. Victore and Peter Lombard brought seuen Sacraments first into the Church No Councell before the Florentine did euer confirme them ibid. nota 43 Popish ceremonies in Baptisme are new ibid. nota 44 Protestants haue both bread and wine and the bodie and blood of Christ Papists haue no bread nor wine nota pag. 239 45 Baptisme is both a chanel of grace and that which confirmes grace but giueth not grace by the word wrought Duraeus contrarie to the schoolemen maketh it but an instrument pag. 239. nota 46 The Baptismes of Iohn and of Christ were both one in ceremâ—â—ie in doctrine and in grace pag. 240 47 The place against it Matth. 3.11 Act. 19.4.5 expounded and answered ibid. nota 48 Baptisme is not so simplie necessarie to saluation that the want of it will condemne but the neglect or contempt of it is a sinne pag. 241 49 Papists thinke infants dying without Baptisme are dâ—â—â—â—â—ed A barbarous and a seâ—selesse opinion and against all reason ibid. nota 50 Infants may haue faith as they haue life and know not of it pag. 242 51 The Sacrament is a Sacrament to all without faith but not a sauing Sacrament to men of yeeres without faith yet to infants it may be because the spirit worketh secretly and powerfully ibid. nota 52 Luther earnestly held that Baptisme ought to bee giuen to children and thought they had faith pag. 243 53 Caluin against the Anabaptists proued the baptisme of infants not by tradition but Scripture pag. 244. nota 54 Campian hath no cause to vpbraid Protestants with corruption of manners so long as Rome is so corrupt as as is and publike Stewes maintained in it pag. 245 55 Luthers lasciuious speech obiected by Campian plainly excused and a worse obiected of Pope Clements 246.247 56 Luther makes three causes of diuorce and the Papists many moe pag. 246. nota 57 Mariage is most necessarie for men who cannot liue chast and commanded pag. 247 58 Mariage is oftentimes simply better than virginitie though this be to be embraced when a man hath the gift that he may more freely serue the Lord. pag. 248. nota 59 The speech of Lauther saying The more wicked that thou art the necrer art thou vnto grace defended in his true sense pag. 249 60 How all our good actions are tainted with sinne and so may be called sinnes in Gods seuere indgement and yet good and to be done pag. 250. nota 61 The good actions of those who are once in Christ though tainted are acceptable vnto God because he lookes vpon the person not the worke pag. 251 62 The law belongs to Christians for a rule of their life though it be abrogated by the new couenant For they are deliuered not from the obedience of it but the curse of it by Christ pag. 252 253. 254. nota 63 God respects the good workes of his but not to instification pag. 254. nota 64 The iust not onely liues but is iustified by his faith and so much the place of Habacuck prooueth ibid. nota 65 Workes not the cause but the manifestation of righteousnes out of Thomas ibid. 66 They who haue broken hearts and contrite spirits are fittest ghuests for the Lords table neither is this against faith pag. 255 67 Luther was not against publike confession but a priuate auricular confession of all sinnes to a Priest onely when by the word it may be made to others pag.
learne from him many new and excellent points This your first reason seemed very iust in your conceit to maintaine your glorious challenge of disputation with some of the learned of our Vniuersities But Campian you had delt a great deale wiser for your self if either you had neuer conceiued thesâ— reasons or streightway vpon the birth smothered them For before by your great challenge you begat a maruelous and wonderfull conceit of your selfe in euery mans mind and now when they shall readâ— those slender reasons of yours they will easily perceiue there is no cause why you should take so much vpon you and they wil tontemptuously deride you as you well deserue hisse you out of their scholes Therefore the counsell which Archidamuâ— gaue to his Sonne headily venturing to right with the Athenians the same doe our Vniuersitie men giue to to you Either adde to thy might or abate of thy mind for no man Campian euer tooke more vpon him and performed lesse than you haue done But let vs see what other things you bring vs. EDMVND CAMPIAN The second Reason which is the right sense of the Scriptures ANother matter that prouoked me to vndertake this enterprize and that enforced mee little to feare these my aduersaries slender armies is the vsuall inclination of my enemie in expounding the Scriptures full of deceite and void of wisdome These things you Philosophers would quickely finde out and therefore I was desirous of your audience Let vs demaund for example sake of our aduersaries what caused them to deuise this new opinion whereby Christ is * This is false for we doe not exclude Christ from the Supper excluded out of the mysticall supper If they name the Gospell we ioyne with them the very words they are for vs. a Matth. 26 Mark 14. Luk. 22. This is my bodie this is my blood which words seemed to b Luther in epist. ad Argen Luther so forcible that when he earnestly desired to be of Zuinglius mind because by that meanes he might haue wrought the Pope most displeasure yet notwithstanding he yeelded being ouercome and vanquished by the most plaine text of Scripture and as vnwillingly confessed that Christ is truly present in the most holy Sacrament as the c Matth. â— Marke 1. diuels in time past being ouercome with miracles with outcries confessed that Christ is the sonne of God Goe to then the written word doth fauour vs the controuersie is about the true meaning of the written word Let vs trie out this by the words thereunto adioyning d Luk. 22. Mattb. 22. Corpus meum quod pro vobis datur sanguis meus qui pro multis eâ—lundetur that is My bodie which is giuen for you my blood which shal be shed for many Yet the matter goeth hard on Caluins side and maketh very manifestly and plainely for vs. What say they else Conferre say they the Scriptures together Agreed The c Iohn 6. Matth. 16. Marc. 14. Luc. 22. Gospels make for vs f 1. Cor. 10. 11. S. Paul accordeth also The words the sentences the whole connexion of Scriptures doe often most reuerently repeate the bread and the wine a not able miracle heauenly foode his flesh his bodie his blood Here is nothing figuratiue nothing obscured by doubtfull speeches yet notwithstanding the aduersaries stand stiffely in their opinion and neuer cease wrangling What shall we then doe I hope antiquitie may be heard and that the reuerend hoare head of Fathers of all former ages to Christs time more nigh farther off from the time of these controuersies may be their iudgement determine this debate which we cannot end amongst our selues being suspected one of another * This is false for in this coÌ„trouersie we willingly admit Antiquity as witnesse They cannot away with that they say then they are betraied They crie out for the sincere and pure word of God they vtterlie reiect all mens commentaries trecherouslie and witlesselie done We will vrge them with the word of God they darken it we call the Saints in heauen for witnesses they refuse them In few words this is their drift that vnlesse thou wilt stand to their owne iudgement that are guiltie there is no iudgement to be had And so they behaue themselues in euerie controuersie betweene vs. As concerning grace powred into vs from heauen inherent iustice the visible Church the necessity of Baptisme Sacraments and sacrifices meritorious works of good folke hope and feare inequality of offences the authoritie of S. Peter the keyes vowes Euangelicall counsailes and other like controuersies we Catholikes in sundrie of our books in our mutuall conference in churches in schooles haue brought forth many and waightie places of Scripture and haue both tried and applied the same They haue scorned at this We haue alledged the interpretations of the auncient Greeke and Latin Churches they haue refused them What say they then marry that M. Doctor Martin Luther or else M. Philip Melanthon or certainelie M. Zuinglius or without doubt M. Caluin and M. Beza haue faithfullie entreated vpon these matters Can I imagine any of you to be so stuffed in the nose that being forewarned cannot quicklie smell out this subtile iugling wherfore I confesse plainlie that I am desirous to haue audience in the Vniuersitie scholes that after I haue called these Ruffian-like knights out of their dark dennes into the open and plaine field I may before your eies discomfite them not by my owne strength which am not to bee compared with the worst of an hundred of our side but by the puissance of the cause and certaintie of the truth which we maintaine WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the second Reason WHat could be said touching the Scriptures wee haue heard wee must proceed to heare what can bee said for the interpretation and exposition of them for our vsuall inclination in expounding the Scriptures saith Campian hath encouraged and incited him earnestly to desire this encounter And we also Campian haue long ago desired to buckle with you herein And at length the Lord hath brought you out of your lurking holes into the broad light that we might trie it out with you but what is our disposition you speake of It is full of deceit say you and void of wisdome Thus you being a man of small reach and lesse discretion do conceite our inclination Assuredly the matter you haue now in hand is a cause of great waight for the force the substance and as it were the soule of the Scripture consisteth in the meaning very well said Hierome The Scriptures are not in the letter but in the vnderstanding Contra Lucifer in 1. cap. ad Gila and in another place a DVR Then Luther and Caluin obtruded a new Gospell vpon the Church when they brought in a new sense of the words such as the whole Christian â—orld knew not yea it had a far other sense of the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 138. If this last
changed so that it is no maruell if the custome of the Church at one time interpret the Scriptures after this manner another time after that Was there euer the like bouldnes heard of that men would wrest the eternall and immutable word of God which euer hath but one and the same sense to serue the will of the Church that is of the Pope of Rome Thom. 1. â— 1. art 10. besides this you haue made so many h DVâ— The Fathers and Antiquity haue euer made these foure senses of the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 163. To faine such foure senses in euery sentence differeth not much from a learned kind of madnes Allegories I confesse many are in the Scriptures but such as the holy Ghost himselfe hath made but to make other Allegories when the words may be vnderstood without a Trope or when the Grammaticall sense is not absurd and repugnant to sound doctrine I thinke is too great bouldnesse and temerity A Tropologicall sense is not a new sense differing from the Grammaticall but one â—s it were with it Finally if the Fathers as men haue erred must we needs follow their errors The Fathers reiected the errors and false interpretations of their predecessors why may not we deale so with them senses of euery place to wit an allegoricall a tropological an anagogicall sense that by your Ledgerdemaine you haue abolished the true and natiue sense Now Campian since you know that this is the manner of your Church in the interpreting of the Scripture than which what can be more corrupt how dare you presume to reprehend our manner of interpretation But we follow no other course then that which the Fathers haue prescribed and which the thing it selfe argues to be most fit For that is our course which Augustine aduised we interpret obscure places by those which are plainer we obserue the phrase and stile of the Scripture we weigh circumstances we compare scripture with scripture we go not one iot from the Analogie of faith They who take this course adioyning their harty prayers that the Lord would open this sealed booke vnto them and teach them the true sense of the scripture shall neuer need to runne to Rome and enquire of that sacred Oracle of the Pope who himselfe neither vnderstandeth the true sense of scripture neither is able to expound them to others But to returne now to Campian what is the vsuall fault he finds in our dealing with the scripture and what be the arguments by which he doth confute vs Let vs demaund saith he for example sake of our Aduersaries what caused them to deuise this new opinion whereby Christ is excluded out of the mysticall Supper We Campian do not i DVR If you place Christs body and your supper so farre asunder how do you not exclude h m from iâ— WHIT. pag. 168. It is true if things that are seuered could no way be ioyned but by a corporall ouching but without it it may fitly be as all beleeuers are ioyned together though they be farre distant and distracted one from another as Iewes Grecians and all other godly make but one body with Christ what is that bond of this vnion but the power of the spirit Such an vnion is this in the SacrameÌ„t and it hath the some bond exclude Christ out of the Supper neither do we otherwise thinke of the Sacrament then both Christ hath taught vs and the old Church hath prescribed We certeinly affirme that the faithfull in the supper receiue whole Christ God and Man we beleeue and teach that they eate his body and drinke his blood Neither doubt we to affirme but that he that comes to the supper and doth not in the supper partake of Christ that he is in danger of condemnation Doe we now exclude Christ from the supper But whosoeuer includeth Christ in the supper as you doe he faineth and forgeth a new Christ to himselfe he confoundeth heauen and eartâ— together he offereth violence to nature and muâ—â— needs admit innumerable absurdities Wherfore we following the scripture as our schole-masters not taking vp any new opinion place the naturall and humane body of Christ in heauen for so the Apostle Peter speaketh whom the heauens must conteine vntill the time that all things be restered Act. 3.21 yet the k DVR Theâ— is Christ as present in Baptisme and in the word and wheresoeuer your faith seekes for him as in the supper yea as present to the Fatherâ— in the old Testament as now to vs. WHIT. pag. 169. So questâ—onlesse he is vnlâ—sse all men be without hope of life and saluation who are depriued of the Supper For John 6.53 yea all Christians communicate of Christ alike as well such as come to the supper as they who cannot partake in it And that he was present to the Fathers it is proued 1. Cor. 10.3.4 vertue the communion the benefit of this body we exclude not from the supper but stifly maintaine that in the supper whole Christ is present to each mans faith This is the summe of our opinion which I no lesse doubt to be the true sense of the scripture then that Christ is Christ or that to be scripture which is scripture This opinion out of all others which we hold haue you made choice of as an example to impugne and gain-say Let vs see now how scholler-like you acquite your selfe If they name the Gospell say you we ioyne with them The very words make for vs. This is my body this is my blood I acknowledge the words do but I enquire now for the sense of them whether they should be so expounded as your Church teacheth that the bread is Transubstantiated into the bodie and the wine into the blood of Christ or by a Trope and in a mysticall sense that the bread is the Sacrament the signe and symboll of the body and so the wine of the blood of Christ as we interpret them Whether opinion hath more truth in it we will now discusse As for that which you tell vs of Luther I suppose you will not expect any answere from me and vndoubtedly in this thing Luther was farre more opposite to your opinion then ours For he euer condemned your Transubstantiation as it is for an accursed inuention and fiction of Satan Luther we acknowledge was a man who though he saw the truth in many things yet he might erre in some things his good things wee embrace but wee are bound by no law to defend his errors But how shal we find out the meaning of this saying Let vs trie out this say you by the words thereto adioyning Nothing can be spoken more truly nothing more fitly nor more ingenuously And verely I could wish you would alwaies doe as you pretend in this place to doe sist out the meaning of the scripture by the circumstances of the words But what are the words adioyning My body which is giuen for you my blood which is shed for you
but as if you had said It is no heynous thing to conceiue and bring forth an Infant Therfore it is none to deuoure it after it is borne heynous act It is therefore a figuratiue speech commanding vs to communicate in the Passion of the Lord. Doe you thinke this reuerend old man dotes or hath he not giuen a iudicious interpretation wel agreeing vnto the iudgement of the auncient I thinke matters yet goe worse on your side then they did before but perhaps you will say these are too auncieÌ„t to serue your turne heare then some of latter times Theod. Theodoret a Gretian and a learned man writeth thus in his Dialogueâ— x DVR Theodorets meaning is that the signes haue not lost their naturall properties though their nature be changed WHIT. pag. 214. If the naturall properties remaine then certeinly their natures must for esseâ—tâ—all properties can neuer be separated from â—heir natures yea in the words follow ng in this very place Theodoret affirmeth that the nature remaineth The mysticall bread saith he remaineth in the nature it first had in the figure and in the forme Mysticall signes doe not lose their proper nature This very speech quite ouerthroweth your Transubstantiation for if their proper nature remaine without doubt nothing can be Transubstantiated or changed Now the bread keepeth his proper and old nature therefore there can be no Transubstantiation but I will ioyne to Theodoret Marcarius whose homilies Morelius had out of the Kings Librarie and hath published them in Greeke and I suppose that you being a Frier will not reiect the testimony of so auncient a Monke he writeth thus In the Church saith he Marcar homil is offered bread and wine y DVR An antitype or resemblance of the type is not the type or figure but the substance signified by that type or figure WHIT. pag. 217. An antitype is neuer properly the substance of the type though sometime it be another type answering to it and both of them are but similitudes figures of the substance And sometimes a type and an antitype are both one and the same as Heb. 9.24 The Tabernacle is called an antitype of heaueÌ„ being the substance signified by the Tabernacle and no answering type to the Tabernacle And in this sense doe diuers of the Fathers vse the word Antitype as Basil Nazianzen Theodoret Chrysost antitypes or resemblances of his body and blood What saith he bread and wine but bread is already turned into flesh and wine into blood Ought a Monke to speake after this manner giue you them so slender a name as similitudes Pardon mee Campian this Monke was neuer vsed to speake after your manner neither was your Transubstantiation as yet come abroad what say you now are you pleased with this reuerend hoare head of the Fathers If you rest not heere it shall be free for you to appeale to any one of the whole reuerend company of the holy Fathers not one of them no not any one of them do I except against For I make no doubt but if they may be iudges you shall euer haue the worst From henceforth therefore do not cast any such calumniâ—â—ions vpon vs and boast your selfe of the bare names of the Fathers for the Fathers both in this controuersie and in many others are firme on our side As for the Fathers of whom you name many but I beleeue haue read but a few I thus answere you We are not the seruants of the Fathers but the sonnes When they prescribe vs any thing out of the Law and diuine authoritie we obey them as our parents If they inioyne any thing against the voyce of the heauenly truth we haue learned not to harken to them but to God You as Vassals and base seruants receiue whatsoeuer the Fathers saie without iudgement or reason being affraid as I think either of the whippe or the halter if euery thing they speake be not Gospell with you In few words say you this is their drift vnlesse thou wilt stand to their owne iudgement that are guilty there is no iudgement to be had Verily this fits you a great deale better then vs for you will receiue no iudgement but the iudgement of the Pope and Church of Rome which Church and Pope wee haue proued long agoe to be guilty of most heynous crimes and there hath been a perpetuall variance betwixt him and vs. Is there any equity then in your demaunds that we should stand to his iudgement who 〈◊〉 both a person guilty and an aduersarie to vs And well should we deserue to lose the cause if we would be so witlesse contenders Much truer speaketh Augustine Let one matter encounter with another Contra Maxim lib. 3. c. 14. one cause with another one reason with another by the authoritie of the holy Scriptures which are not proper to either side but common z DVR How foolishly do you alledge Augustine who maketh the Scripture a witnes of the truth not a iudge as you would haue it WHIT. pag. 243. If the Scripture be the witnes where shall we find a iudge answerable to this witnes Is it the Church Then must it be of more authority then the Scripture which heere you affirme not neither may it be graÌ„ted for the Scripture is the word of God therefore he that is the iudge of it must be the iudge of God himselfe To deny the Scriptures then the preheminence in iudging is to thrust God out of his throne Therefore as God so the Scripture the word of God hath the authoritie both of a witnesse and a iudge DVR Augustine euer thought that the Popes iudgement was the highest tribunall â—pon earth where all controuersies must be decided WHIT. pag. 244. Augustine neuer thought so but writ the contrary De ciuitat Dei lib. 15. â—ap 3. The Lord saith he hath penned the Scripture which is callâ—d Canonicall because it is of highest authoritie yea hee neuer once pressed the Arrians either with the authoritie of the Pope or of the Councell which vndoubtedly he would haue done neither could he haue done better if the highest iudgement had been in the Church witnesses for both And to their iudgements would we haue you to stand not ours As for other things you speake of I passe them ouer for you will reserue them for vs till another place and wheras you say you haue cited many and worthy places of Scripture we haue weighed those places in their ballances and haue found them to light to proue what you proposed And it is your vse indeed rather to take them by number then by weight But you charged vs with scorning at this and shifting them off we did nothing lesse all we did was to free them from your cauils We haue say you alledged the interpretations of the Greeke and Latin Churches I confesse it but we haue wrung all those weapons from you and haue by them battered all your holds But say you what say they
with more words You make hast to the Sacraments Of the Sacraments And I will pursue you as much hast as you make Now here you cry on t most pittifully O blessed Christ they haue left neuer a Sacrament not two not one Dare you appeale to Christ whose Sacraments yee haue banished with great reproch out of the Church that ye might bring in certaine impure Sacraments not worthy to be named we retaine those Sacraments which Christ hath commended to vs if there had been need of more he would haue left more We haue two Sacraments Baptisme and the Lords Supper these Christ did institute p DVR Our seuen Sacraments stand vpon good ground and reason hath antiquitie for them WHIT. pag. 643. You should then produce some antiquitie for the proofe of them but hauing none why do you so brag of it I wonder not at your sileÌ„ce because I know that that this number was neuer heard of before Hugo de Sancto Victore and Peter Lombard brought them into the Church and yet for them Lombard neuer gathered any testimony of auncient Fathers Neither euer any Councell before the Florentine Councell did approue or establish this number But your fiue bastard Sacraments 1. Order 2. Confirmation 3. Extreame Vnction 4. Penance 5. Marriage I proue thus to be no true SacrameÌ„ts of Christs Church 1. In euery SacrameÌ„t is necessarily required and elemeÌ„t or visible matter But that neither your Order not CoÌ„firmation nor Penance nor Marriage haue by any warrant of Scripture 2. Those which are the proper SacrameÌ„ts of the Church Christ did institute But Christ instituted not any one of those fiue for Sacraments 3. Sacraments belong to all Christians But your Order and Marriage pertaine to a few in comparison 4. Seeing you faine that grace lyeâ—h hid in the Sacraments and is by them transmitted vnto men proue vs which parts of these Sacraments do containe the grace inclosed What answere soeuer you make you will be taken napping Therefore these fiue bastard Sacraments are no true Sacraments of Christs Church these the auncient Church acknowledge and with these the later Church ought to haue been contented For that it is most euident that for seuen Sacraments for so many you hold that not a footstep of antiquity can be found O blessed Christ they haue seuen SacrameÌ„ts yet they haue no SacrameÌ„t because they haue not thine For those Sacraments which are not thine are no Sacraments at all Their bread say you is poison and what is our wine but the common people among you taste not of that at all belike lest they should thinke that you did drinke to them of a poison Wee doe vse that bread and that wine in the Lords Supper which Christ himselfe commanded to vse That which hee deliuered we haue receiued that which he did we do in the bread and wine we celebrate the remembrance of our Redeemer If those were wholesome ours cannot bee deadly Baptisme say you although it be as yet among them true notwithstanding in their iudgement it is nothing You your self coÌ„fesse that our Baptisme is trueâ— I take it for granted But why is it true because wee baptize so as Christ hath commanded vs. We keepe the law of Christ we throw your I know not q DVR What is that you call trash vvhich of the auncient Fathers haue been vvho haue not made mention of our ceremonies WHIT. pag. 658. Christ coÌ„maunded nothing to the Church touching these trifles though we reade often of Baptisme in the word of many yet there is no word touching any of these Shall we then thinke that the Church in later times hath knowne better vvhat ceremonies vvere fitter for the Sacrament then Christ and his Apostles vvhere did euer any of them vse salt spittle candles c. in this Sacrament what trash away the like haue we done in the other Sacrament not haue wee departed a nailes bredth from Christs precept If ours be true Baptisme then is out r DVR VVhen bread and vvine is your Eucharist neither doe you beleeue Christ gaue any other thing in the Supper vvee leaue you your Eucharist also WHIT. pag. 660. If wee haue true Baptisme why not the Eucharist wee follow Christs commandement in both Further you falsely accuse vs who thinke bread wine to be but one part of the Sacrament as Ireneus and antiquity hath done Christ his body and blood the other But you haue no Eucharist at all who professe you haue neither bread nor wine Eucharist true also But in their iudgement say you it is nothing Why so It is not the water of saluation it is not the conduit of grace it doth not deriue the merits of Christ into vt but only it is a signification of saluation All these things are feined false For we preach it to be the sauing water and a Å¿ DVR But Caluin denieth all this making it only a signe and seale by vvhich vve are assured of the grace bestâ—â—ed vpon vs. WHIT. pag. 663. Doth it follow hence that grace and remission of sinne is not giuen vnto vs in Baptisme As if by the seale of the Kings Charter some thing is not both giuen vnto vs and confirmed And in Baptisme this confirmation is but a more bountifull donation chanell of grace and we doubt not but it deriueth Christs merits into vs. For it doth not only signifie saluation but also it performeth bringeth it indeed to them that vse Baptisme aright and holily For in Baptisme we receiue forgiuene of our sinnes we are accepted into the familie of Christ we are endowed with the holy Ghost we are raised vp to a most certaine hope of euerlasting life Are these matters of nothing to you Campian shall this Baptisme be nothing wherin we obteine so many and so great good things but what manner of thing is your Baptisme or what hath it more which ours ought to haue hath it grace or the merits of Christ or saluation Ours also hath these things what then is wanting in it why it should not be true both in ours and others iudgement I know your meaning It conueigheth not grace by the worke wrought This indeed is a magicall and pestilent deuice that you should thinke t DVR VVe thinke not so but that it is in it as in an instrument And so hath Thomas taught WHIT. pag. 664. Then you reiect and condemne all your old Sophisters who haue taught that grace is included in the Sacrament as health is in a medicine or salue For as that doth cure the disease whether he beleeue or no that is sicke only if he take it so the Sacrament doth giue grace without any faith or good motion of the receiuer so he hath no mortall sinne to hinder it grace to be inclosed in the water it selfe as it were in a pipe which sheadeth it self forth into all men though quite void of faith For what auaileth the Sacrament
and explaned Page 53. 54 The summe of the second answere touching the true meaning of the Scripture 1 The substance and soule of the scripture is the true meaning Page 59 2 The sense is not that which most hold but which is agreeable to the scripture ibid. nota 3 Papists make the Church the interpreter of scriptures that is first Bishops then Councels in their defect the Pope for he so challengeth it that whatsoeuer he thinketh that must be the meaning of it Page 60 4 It is very absurd to hang the sense of the scriptures vpon one mans iudgement especially vpon the Pope so vnlearned and absurd an interpreter as many of them haue bin Page 60. 61 5 They teach the sense of the scripture may be changed with the times and occasions Page 61 6 Foure senses of euery scripture made by Papists Page 61. 62 7 The manner of interpreting the scriptures amongst Protestants which is auncient and safe Page 62 8 Protestants do not exclude Christ from the supper as Papists falsely accuse them yet they include him not in it as Papists do his naturall body they place in heauen but the virtue communion and benefit of this body they exclude not but mainteâ—â— that whole Christ is present to each mans faith Page 63 9 Christ is as present in Baptisme and was to the Fathers as in the Supper ibid. nota 10 The popish and false interpretation of these words This is my body this my bloud confuted by the same rule whereby Campian would confirme them that is by conference of them with the words adioyning Page 64. 65 11 That the words of the sacrament bee figuratiue is proued by the induction of other sacraments Page 65. 66 12 There is no miracle in the sacrament Page 67 13 Papists affirme that the wicked eate the body of Christ as well as the beleeuer Page 67 14 All antiquity is on the Protestants side for the interpretation of the words of the sacrament against the Papists and so their transubstantiation is a new inuention Page 67 15 The testimonies of Tertullian and Augustine alleadged and of Theodoret. Page 68. 69 16 The testimonie of Macarius a Monke Page 70 17 Campian dealeth vnequally pressing the Protestants to leaue the iudgement of the scripture and stand to the iudgement of the Pope being an enemy to them Page 71 The summe of the third answere touching the nature of the Church 1 The true notes of the Church whose present being maketh a true Church whose absence marreth and ouerthroweth it are the word the whole and pure sacraments Page 77. 78 2 The Church is more hid and vnknowne then the Scripture Page 78. nota 3 The Church is euer and must be vpon the earth and oftentimes inuisible compared therefore of Augustine to the Moone Page 78 4 In the daies of Ahab and of Christ it was inuisible or scarce visible Page 80 5 Succession not necessary to the being of the Church for it hath bin and yet no Church as in the Church of the Iews Page 81 6 The small number of the faithfull as Christs 〈◊〉 Pag. 82 7 What is a visible Church Page 82. 83 8 Though perticular Churches are visible it followeth not that the Catholike Church is euer visible ibid. 9 The antiquitie of our faith and doctrine is from the Apostles time Page 83. 84 10 Superstitious growing vpon the Church Page 84 11 The growing of the Popes authority to the height it is now at 84. nota 12 The bringing of Images into the Church Page 84. nota 13 The Grecians not subiect to the Romish Church ibid. 14 The vow of virginitie not vnderstood by faith in S. Paul and what is meant by it Page 86. nota 15 To what Church the Protestants will subscribe Page 87 16 In the visible Church are both good and hypocrites in the inuisible only godly and faithfull men Page 88 17 The distinction of visible and inuisible make not two Churches but one and how they differ and what the Catholike Church is nota The summe of the fourth Answere touching generall Councels 1 Protestants with consent of antiquitie prefer the Scripture before Councels Page 94. nota 2 Nazianzenes hard censure of Councels Page 95 3 The first Councell hold by the Apostles and Church by necessarie consequent condemneth the multitude of popish ceâ—â—â—â—nies Page 96 4 Augustine condemneth the multitude of ceremonies in his time how would he complaine if he saw the multitude of popish ceremonies Page 96 5 Gregories speech expounded touching the foure generall Councels Page 97 6 The iudgement of the Church of England touching the foure generall Councels Page 98 7 The Popes may not haue Peters honour seeing they haue not his vertues and pietâ—â— 99 8 The Canon of the Councell of Nice vtterly ouerthrowed the supremacie of the Pope giuing him no authoritie ouer other churches no more then others ouer his Page 100. 101 9 The Councell of Calcedon doth not confirme the Popes supremacie but ouerthrowes it The Councell gaue to the church of Râ—â—â— greater prerogatiues because it was the chiefe seate of the Empire and not for any law of God and made the Bishop of Constantinople equall with the Bishop of Rome Page 101. 102 10 The Councell of Constantinople gaue vnto the sea of Rome the honour of precedence and place not of authority Page 103 11 The Councell of Ephesus ascribeth no more to the Bishop of Rome then to other Bishops ibid. 12 The Councell of Nice doth not establish the vnbloudie sacrifice of the altar for in the canon named there is no mention of sacrifice or altar Page 104 13 The Fathers haue called the Lords Supper an vnbloudie sacrifice because it is without bloud and not because no bloud is then shed Page 105 14 Saincts departed know neither vs nor the things we do or slâ—â—â—d in need of no reason then we should pray vnto them though the custome be auncient it hath no warrant Page 106 15 Saincts departed know our generall conditions as we theirs not our perticular state nota 16 S. Paul prayed not to the Romanes and Corinthians as Papists do to Saincts but required of them a christian dutie nota 17 The Councell of Calcedon admiâ—teth ministring Widowes who are but 40. yeares of age forbidding them marriage when as S. Paul would haue them 60. before they be admitted Page 107 18 Duraeus confesseth that in the first age they did not prefer continone is before marriage nota 19 They who haue vowed single life and cannot performe it haue done euill in vowing but not in marrying and for to vow things not in our power is to mock God Page 108 20 Chastitie and single life is not in mans power nota 21 Cyprian alloweth Virgins who haue vowed virginitie if they cannot liue honestly to marry Page 109 22 Campian maketh the Councell of Trent and other Councels equall with the foure Euangelists Page 110 23 Priuate men alleadging the scripture rather to be beleeued then the
Luther whom you say doubted not to taxe S. Lukes Gospell Serm. de Pharis Publi as if it were written in a wanton stile because therein good workes are often recommended vnto vs. Was there euer read or heard of the like impudencie audaciousnes and treacherous dealing in any man The place you note in the margent I haue very diligently and heedfully obserued that I might discerne wherin Luther hath shewed such male pertnes but I haue not found one vnholy nor dishonorable terme vnfit to be giuen to S. Luke as being an heauenly Euangelist For that which Luther propounds to himselfe is to take out of mens minds a scruple which S. Lukes often mention of workes might moue in them lest any happilie might thinke that S. Luke by often speaking of works should detract somewhat from faith or place our iustification in our workes And this is as you affirme saucilie to giue S. Luke a wipe if you can tel me of any greater matter I will no waies defend or excuse Luthers malepertnes But what malepertnes is this of yours Campian whom neither the feare of God nor the reuerence of men can restraine froÌ„ writing or diuulging of those things which your owne conscience tels you are most false and you cannot passe by Beza neither without the like Calumnious censure Who say you was so bould as to reprehend that mysticall word Hic est calix nâ—uâ—m Testameâ—tum in sâ—â—guine meo qui calix pro vobis fundetur This is the cup of the new Testament in my blood which cup shall be shedde for you aâ— corrupted and depraued I see well where your error is in following that corrupt and adulterous vulgar translation for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you thus translate a DVR I confesse there is a Metonymy in the cup the cup being put for the blood WHIT. pag. 130. Then this cup is as much as this blood Then see what a sentence you haue made This blood is the new Testament in my blood which is shed for you As if Christ had said This blood is the new Testament in my blood And so heere are two bloods and the one in the other Hic est calix nouum Testamentum This is the cup of the new Testament when the words are rather thus to be placed Hic calix est nouum Testamentum This cup is the new Testament and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being a participle of the present tence you translate by a verbe of the future tence Qui fundetur shall be shed for you for Qui funditur is shedde for you But you dare not goe a haires breadth from the vulgar translation for feare of incurring that curse of the Councell of Trent But heere Theodor Beza apparantly is caught in a haynous crime for he writeth that Luke hath committed a Solecisme what then I pray you a very foule fact and very intolerable Is it so indeed how shall we then defend Hierome who writeth that Paul committed such solecismes in his words that by no good ordering any good sense could be made of them In cap. 3. Epist. ad Ephes If S. Paul might commit Solecismes in his words why may we not thinke S. Luke may doe as much and if Hierome without sinne might accuse S. Paul not to speake properly or scholer-like why might not Beza note some want of propriety of speech in S. Luke for you are wide Campian if you thinke this any thing diminisheth the authoritie dignity of the Scriptures for Hierâ—me construeth it quite contrarie Let vs looke therefore vpon the place of the Euangelist that we may iudge where this fault is The words runne thus This cup is the new Testament in my blood which is shedde for you If you change nothing in the words and exclude all incongruitie then these last words Which is shed for you must be referred to the first This cup. And so this should be the meaning This cup is shed for you But not the cup but the blood of Christ was shed for vs. But you will say the cup is put for the wine in the cup. So that whether you will or no you must acknowledge that in these words there is a trope or figure though you Papists vsually deny the same and vehemently cry out none of them is to be taken figuratiuely But you your selues in these words make two figures first you take the cuppe for the wine in it then the wine for the blood of Christ which in no hand you can do without a figure therefore heereafter stand not vpon words for if you will now stand to the words you must either graunt that the cup was shed for vs or you must admit a solecisme and vnproper speech If we will read them as Basill doth Basil in Eth. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Which blood is shed for you the meaning wil be plaine when these words which is shedde for you are referred to the blood of Christ These are Campians collectioÌ„s of such things wherein our men haue offended against the authoritie and dignity of the Scripture These he crieth out do euidently open our diffidence and desperation these are those things he propoundeth vnto you that are most learned of the Vniuersity Whose iudgement I am therefore also wel contented to stand vnto because I well know your learning and wisdome together with your studious endeuours in the best authors to be such that this sillie foolish sophister with all his slaunders and lies shall neuer be able to remoue or corrupt you for what matter hath he brought or what inuention which may seeme to sauour either of deepe learning much reading or witty conceit Therefore you shall do wel to set light by the threats of this Philistine and to cleaue with constancy to that holy religion which you haue learned out of the holy Scriptures as also proceed in that course of vertue and learning you haue begun that the Iesuits with all their inchauntments may lose all their labour in seeking to seduce you Hitherto Campian hath busied himself in discoursing vnto vs what he could concerning the holy bookes being desirous also to deliuer vnto vs such things as we haue depraued in our false translations saue that as he saith he reserues this labour for his old Colledge fellow Gregory Martin some others whom he well knoweth will performe it farre more learnedly and copiously then himselfe Therefore if you thinke good we will expect this Martin of whom you speake and whom I shall easily conceiue to be a man of more learning then your selfe vnlesse he be a very doult indeed And I doubt not but we shall be able to maintaine our translations both Latin and English against your Martin and all your Colleagnes And as for those petty Doctors whom you lastly reproach I neither know them nor the nature of their offence But when once your friend Martin shall come abroad who now perhaps is hammering some speciall peece of worke we shall
true faith lay hold on the Gospell These though they may bee seene as long as they liue amongst men seeing they are men as others bee yet because neither their faith nor Gods loue which maketh them members of the Church is visible we affirme that this Church consisting of holy and faithfull men is altogether inuisible Christ is the head of this Church to this only the elect caâ— ioyne themselues wee then acknowledge another Church besides that which coÌ„teineth only Saints for so should there be no visible Church at all but what company of men soeuer vpon the earth doth professe the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets we professe that to be the true Church of Christ though many wicked men be found in it Neither are we the first who did inuent and deuise these things as you say of vs but are ready to proue theÌ„ both by the holy scripture and by authority of Antiquity Comfort then your selfe Campian as much as you can with the wits of our Vniuersity men and promise to your selfe great things from vs but see you bring more dexterity of wit or else without doubt you can neuer deceiue vs with this shallow conceit If you should propound these foolish and childish things in the populous assemblies of our Vniuersity men I perswade my selfe they would not only teare to pieces these your childish shifts but do as much by you too for abusing so shamefully their learned conceites EDMVND CAMPIAN The fourth Reason which is generall Councels AGreat controuersie for the keeping of the ceremonies of the old law which in the Primitiue Church much moued the minds of faithfull people was by a Councell gathered together of the Apostles and some elders decided Children then beleeued their Parents and sheepe their Sheepheards charging them in this sort a Act. 15 It hath pleased the holy Ghost and vs after this there were holden foure generall Councels of auncient Fathers for the rooting out of heresie which budded vp aboundantly in euery age which were of such authoritie aboue b Greg. li. 1. epist. 24. 1000. yeeres agoe that * Gregorie made the foure Councels equall to the Euangelists great honour was attributed vnto them as though it had been vnto the foure Gospels I will seeke no further euen here in our owne Countrey by an c Anno 1. Elizab. acte of Parliament the selfe same Councels doe retaine still their former force and pure authoritie which said acte I will heere alleadge And call thee thy selfe O England my most louing Countrey to witnesse If thou reuerence as thou pretendest those Councels Nic. Can. 6. Chal. act 4. 16. Constan c. 5. Eph. conc in epist. ad Nestorium Nic. con 14 Chal. act 11 Nic. conc apud Soc. lib. 1 cap. 8. Vide Chalc. can 4.15.23 then wilt thou yeeld vp the supremacie to the Bishop of the chiefe sea that is to Saint Peter Then wilt thou acknowledge vpon the altar the vnbloodie sacrifice of the bodie and blood of Christ. Then wilt thou pray the blessed Martyrs and all the Saints in Heauen to make intercession to Christ for thee Then wilt thou restraine these leacherous Apostataes from their filthie carnall copulation and open incest Then wilt thou build vp many things which now thou pullest downe and wish many things vndone which now thou doest Moreouer I promise and vndertake as occasion and time shall serue to proue that the * Campian makes all Synods equall with the Gospell Councels holden at other times and namely the Councell of Trent haue been of equall authoritie and credit with the foure first Councels Wherefore then should I not come to this place of triall securely and couragiously to marke into what corner my enemie will creepe seeing I am * This is false ancient Councels doe not confirme the Romish faith ayded with the valiant and piked garrison of all the Councels For I will alleadge both most manifest matter which he shall not be able to wrest aside and also most substantially prooued which he dare not contemptuously reiect He will perhaps goe about to trifle out the time with multiplying of many words but if you be the men that I haue alwaies taken you for you will take so good heed vnto him that he shall neither rob you of your eares nor eyes If there shall be any at all so mad as to oppose himselfe against the sages of all Christendome and those such men as for holines of life learning and antiquitie are too great to be challenged I would willingly behold that brazen face the which when I shall shâ—w you I will leaue the rest to your imaginations In the meane while I will giue you this caueat that whosoeuer affirmeth that a generall Councell * The Councell of Trent was neither a full Councell nor lawfully held And so both the Emperor and the French King haue iudged Sleidan anno 1551. lib. 33. The assemblie of certaine men duly and orderly kept and finished is of no force or authoritie the same man seemeth to me to be one of no iudgement nor of any wit and not onely an asse in diuinitie but also voide of discretion in worldly policie If euer the spirit of God illuminated the Church surely then that time is most fit to send downe the holy Ghost when the religion perfection knowledge wisdome and honour of all Churches dispersed throughout all Christendome are assembled together into one Citie and vsing all meanes both diuine and humane whereby the truth may be searched out Matth 18. they call vpon the holy Ghost promised e Joh. 14. by God vnto them that by his assistance they may establish godly lawes for the safe and wise gouernement of the Church Now let there some pettie peart hereticall Doctor leape out let him looke vp stately let him scorne and mocke let him lay all shame aside let him saucily giue iudgement of his owne iudges what game what pastime shall he make we haue spied out such a one euen Martin f Lib. de capt Bab. Luther who saith that he more esteemeth of the voices of two honest and learned men ye may well imagine his owne and Philip Melancthons if they come together in Christs name then he did of all generall Councels O worthy companie We haue found out also another of the same crue to wit g Martini Kemnitij examen Conc. Tridentini Kemnitius who hath vndertaken to examine the Councell of Trent by his owne vnreasonable giddie braine what hath he gained an euill name so that he except he preuent it by recanting shall be buried for an heriticke with Arrius whereas the Councell of Trent the elder it waxeth by so much more it shall flourish daily and continually * The famous praises of the Councell of Trent O good Lord with what diuersitie of people out of all countries with what choice of Bishops throughout all Christendome with what excellencie of Kings and Common-weales with what
In the Councell of Ephesus diuers things are conteined vvhich approue the supremacy of the Sea of Rome c. WHIT. pag. 313. Campian cited the Epistle of the Councell to Nestorius wherein there is nothing which any way fauoureth the Popes supremacy the which you perceiuing do rake together other fragments concerning things which are not in controuersie and leaue out those points which make against you Ephesus is alleadged by you with as litle reason seeing it ascribeth nothing to the Bishop of Rome which did not also agree to other Bishops for if you take hold on this that Celestinus the Bishop of Rome was called the holy president most reuerend Father because he threatned to excommunicate Nestorius vnlesse he abiuted his heresie these things are coÌ„mon vnto the Bishop of Rome with others neither was he only intitled reuerend neither could hee alone pronounce iudgment against heretikes But if these would rather please you This is the faith of the Catholike and Orthodoxall Church vnto which all the Orthodoxall Bishops giue their assent you interpret these words amisse For in these words all the Orthodoxall Bishops are said not to assent to the Church but to the faith and that faith which the Fathers in those their letters embraced all Orthodoxall Bishops in euery place haue approued and we also do defend But what now followeth in your contestation Thou wilt say you acknowledge the vnbloody sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ on the Altar And for this you cite the 14. Canon of the Nicence CouÌ„cell in which there is not so much as any mention made neither of vnbloody nor of i DVR The word Sacrifice is in the 14. Canon of the Nicene Councell And in the institutions of this Councell it is said that the Lambe of God is on the holy table which is offered of the Priests without blood c. WHIT pag. 316. It is not to be found in the words of the Councell in the Greeke but they are your words of the TraÌ„slator And coÌ„cerning the institutioÌ„s their authority was alwaies doubtfull in the Church neither do they make for you seeing we grant that in the right vse of the Sacrament we receiue the Lambe of God Sacramentally sacrifice nor of Altar But Deacons are there prohibited to arrogate so much vnto themselues that Bishops or Priests being present they should take vpon them to administer the Sacrament of the Lords supper because it was not lawfull for Deacons to deliuer the Lords body vnto Priests Now it is an vsuall thing to call bread the Lords body because it is a Sacrament of the Lords body neither in the meane time do I deny that the supper of the Lord is called by many of the k DVR The testimonies of the Fathers which you alleadge vvherein the Sacrament is called an vnbloody sacrifice make nothing for you seeing that vvith them is called vnbloody not that is vvithout blood but vvithout effusion of blood WHIT pag. 318. The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vnbloody vsed by them signifieth such a thing as hath no blood in it If therefore this be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an vnbloody sacrifice as the Fathers call it then it is a Sacrifice without blood and not only without shedding of blood Againe if it be a sacrifice wherin no blood is spilt then is it not the sacrifice of Christ for in this blood was shed nor any true sacrifice for there is no sacrifice that hath blood without the shedding therof Heb. 9.22 auncient Fathers an vnbloody sacrifice both because wee retaine the mysteries of Christs death without any blood also offer vp praises thanksgiuing as it were for sacrifices vnto God and therefore Cyrill ioyneth in the supper these together vnbloody sacrifices and praises Cyril ad Regin Eusebius de Demon. lib. 1. And Eusebius writeth that we build an Altar to the Lord of vnbloody and reasonable sacrifices according to the new mysteries Now if you aske what manner of vnbloody sacrifice this is let Eusebius himself answer you in his own words He hath deliuered vnto vs a l DVR Eusebius doth not call it a sacrifice because it is a sole bare memoriall of the new Testament as you suppose but because vvee offer an vnbloody socrifice for a memoriall of a bloody sacrifice WHIT. pag. 323. Neither doe I affirme it for this is not a bare memoriall seeing the thing it selfe thereby signified is therin coÌ„teined in the right vse of it But withall I deny that this memoriall is the same sacrifice which Christ offered as you would haue it for how can a sacrifice be the self same with it of which it is a memorial If therfore this be an vnbloody sacrifice theÌ„ it is not the Sacrifice which Christ offered which was bloody the memorial of no other sacrifice See Eus de Demon. l. 1. memoriall of his death which we offer vnto him in place of a Sacrifice Again you propound the eleuenth act of the Councell of Chalcedon which conteineth nothing at all which appertaineth to this matter in hand neither that place of Socrates which you quote Lib. 1. cap. 8 You might haue dealt better and more simply if you would haue cited the words themselues and not only quoted vncertaine and confused notes in the margent but you feared lest you might haue bin too easily discouered vnles you had masked your selfe vnder the vizard of deceite But let vs examine the remainder of your contestation Thou wilt pray say you vnto the Martyrs and all the Saints that they would mediate for thee vnto Christ Thou wilt restraine effeminate Apostataes from wicked copulation Whether the Martyrs and heauenly Saints pray vnto Christ for vs or no m DVR You caÌ„not be ignorant of this that the Saints pray for vs if in the doctrine of faith you insist in the steps of the Fathers WHIT. p. 328. We are ignoraÌ„t therof because there is no such thing coÌ„teined in the Canonical Scriptures which should not haue bin omitted if the spirit of God had thought this knowledge necessary Neither is it conâ—â—ouersed what the Fathers thought of it not doth it follow because they haue care of vs they pray for vs neither if they do pray therefore we should pray vnto them we know not but certaine it is that they are n DVR We knovv the blessednes of the Saints in heauen and therefore they are not ignorant of our misery in earth Againe Christ hath reueiled vnto the Saints liuing on the earth diuine and heauenly things and therefore he reueileth to the Saints in heauen vvhat is done in earth WHIT. pag 330. Although we generally know that the Saints in heauen are blessed yet we know not their particular state their actions the manner degree of their happines and therefore if your argument be good it confuteth your self seeing therfore it followeth that they likwise are ignorant of our particular state actions Moreouer Christ
because he was iniurious to the Apostle a blasphemer a naughty man a wicked fellow Gregorie Massonius esteemeth more of one Caluin then of an hundred Augustines a hundred is but a few Å¿ Lib. cent Henrie 8. Reg. Augâ— Martin Luther careth not a button if there were against him a thousaÌ„d Augustines a thousand Cyprians a thousand Churches I thinke it will be to no purpose to wade any further in this matter for who may maruell if they that thus raile against these worthy men haue also been saucy against Optatus Athanasius Hilarius both Cyrils Epiphanius Basill Vincentius Fulgentius Leo and Gregorie the Romane And yet if there may be any iust defence of an vniust cause I do not deny but the Fathers haue wheresoeuer you reade in their workes such matter as may cause the Aduersarie to take pepper in the nose so long as they follow their owne humours For they that cannot away with prescript daies of abstinence how is it likely that they can abide S Basill S. Gregorie Nazianzene S. Leo and S. Chrysostome who haue set forth in print g zâ—ch 13. Praef. in cent 5. very godly sermons concerning Lent and Ember daies as things vsually at that time obserued among Christian people Can those men chuse which haue sold their soules for riches bodily pleasure daintie fare and fine apparrell but beare deadly hatred to S. Basill S. Chrysostome S. Hierome and S. Augustine whose excellent bookes of the order rule and vertuous life of * But these Monkes were most vnlike to ours Monkes are vsually in euery mans band May they that haue intruded seruill will into man that haue cut off all Christian funerals that haue set on fire the reliques of Saints continue friendship with S. Augustine who hath penned three whole bookes of mans * But in these bookes he doth not establish freewill freewill t Lib. 22. de Ciuit. Dei cap. 8. ser de diuers 34. sequent one booke of care to be taken for the dead one long chapter of that his noble worke De ciuitat Dei concerning miracles wrought at the Churches Chappels and sepulchers of holy Martyrs and certaine Sermons of the same matter Can such as measure faith by their own captiousnes refraine from anger towards S. Augustine of whose penning there is extant a notable o Cont. epist Man quam vocant fundam c. 4. Epistle against Manachie wherein he confesseth that for his faith he will cleaue vnto * Yet in that very place Augustine preferred truth before all these Antiquitie vnity continuall succession and to the Church which by prescription alone challengeth amoÌ„g so many heresies the title of Catholike u Li. 1. cont Paâ—men Optatus * This Optatus is an old Father newly printed Bishop of Miletan confuteth such as tooke part with Donatus by the Catholike coÌ„munity Their wickednes he accuseth by the decree of the Pope Melchiades he reproueth x Lib. 2. their heresie by the succession of the Bishops of Rome He displaieth their y Lib. 3. madnes by their dafiling both of the blessed Eucharist and also of the holy oyle He abhorreth their z Lib. 6. sacriledge in breaking downe of holy Altars whereupon Christs body is laid and also in polluting of the Chalices which contained Christs blood I would gladly know what they thinke of Optatus who is commended by S. a Aug. lib. 1 cont Parmen De Vnit. ca. 16. lib. 3 de Doct. Christ c. 40. Augustine as a worthy and Catholike Bishop not inferiour to S. Ambrose and S. Cyprian and whom S. b Fulgent li. 2. ad Monim Vide epist. Synod Alex. ad Feli. 2. Fulgentius also recordeth to haue been an holy man and faithfull Interpretor of S. Paul not vnlike vnto S. Augustine and S. Ambrose They reade S. Athanasius Creed in their Churches Do they for all that beare him any good will who hath highly commended as an auncient writer in an exact booke S. Antony that hermite of Aegypt and also hath humbly appealed with the Councell of * A counterfeit Epistle Alexandria vnto the Sea Apostolike of S. Peter How often doth S. Prudentius in his Hymnes pray vnto the blessed Martyrs what Hymnes doth he endite in their praise how often doth he worship the King of Martyrs at their ashes and bones will they allow of this man S. Hierome in the defence of Reliques and honor of Saints writeth against Vigillantius and for the preheminence of virginitie against Iouinian will they tolerate this An high solemne feast was kept by c Vide Epist de Ambros ad Epist It al. Fom 3. Silâ—â— tiusdem Amb. Epist. 85. Item Serm. 91. S. Ambrose in the honor of his Patrones Geruasius and Protasius to the great reproach of the Arrians which act the holy d August lib. 22. de ciuie Dei cap. 1. Fathers haue highly commended and God himselfe adorned with many miracles will they be friends with S. Ambrose c Gregâ—r Tur. lib. de gloria Mar. cap. 46. Metaphrast S. Gregorie the great that Apostle of * Gregorie the great was neither our Apostle nor an Apostle at all ours is flat on our side and for that title is hated of our Aduersaries whom Caluin in his fury doth deny to be brought vp in the f Iust. lib. 1. cap. 11. n. 5. schoole of the holy Ghost because hee called holiâ— Images the books of vnlearned people A whole day would not be enough for me to reckon all the Epistles Sermons Homilies Orations Treatises and disputations of the old Fathers wherein of set purpose both grauely and eloquently they haue confirmed our Catholike doctrine So long as these bookes of these Fathers shall be sold at the Stationers shop in vaine are the hauens and sea coasts watched so narrowly to no purpose are houses coffers and chests straightly searched to no end are penall proclamations set vpon so many gates For none of our late writers neither Harding nor Sanders nor Allen nor Stapleton nor Bristol do more vehemently inueigh against these their new found dreames then those Fathers do whom I haue named which things when I well considered my courage began to rise I had a desire to fight in which conflict on which side soeuer the aduer sarie shall start except he yeeld due honor vnto God he shall haue the foyle if he allow of the Fathers he is caught if he disallow of them he is no body Thus it fell out when I was a yong student at Oxford * This word Bishop Iewel did neuer eat neither wil we euer renouÌ„ce Iohn Iewel the captaine of English Caluinists challenged in most bragging sort all Catholikes at Paules Crosse in London vrging and alledging like an hypocrite all the Fathers that euer flourished within sixe hundred yeares after Christ. Certeine worthy men which then for religion liued as banished men in the Vniuersity of Lonan thoug through the iniquity of the time they
euer flourish But it is nothing to vs and you Church of Rome was then the preseruer of Religion the maintainer of the true faith and shined like a starre in the sight of all other Churches no maruell then though the most holy Fathers esteemed much the reuerence of this Church vrged the heretikes with the example of it Irenaeus August as a great preiudice vnto them Hence it is that sometimes they alledge the decrees and succession of the Bishops of Rome therby prouing that the heresies by them refuted were not heard of in the most famous and honorable Church But since that time the course of the Church is turned and the Sea of Rome hath declined and degenerated from her sincere faith to detestable falshood Restore vs Campian the old Church of Rome and we will neuer separate our selues from her but of that Church you haue nothing left but the walles and old rubbish yet still you bragge of the name of the Catholike Church And whereas you mention Altars on which the members of Christ are carried and Chalices containing his blood I know well many things concerning Altars are to be found in the auncient Fathers which Altars in Africa were not of stone but r DVR VVhat difference is there the Donatists ouerthrew vvoodden Altany and you Altars of stone WHIT pag. 389. They troubled sacred tables by their sacriledge not reprouing the administration of the Sacrament but the ordination of Bishops which yet was lawfull we haue cast downe Altars wickedly erected for the wicked Masse and prophane Idolatry Is there no difference thinke you woodden as you may see in Augustines Epistle to Boniface and I graunt the members of Christ and his Å¿ DVR Optatus writeth that the body of Christ dwelleth vpon the Altar WHIT. pag. 390. I answere that the sacrament of the body of Christ is after a sort Christs body and the name of the thing is giuen to the signe as is vsuall in all Sacraments For the body of Christ is no where properly but in heauen at the right hand of his Father where it shall remaine to the end of the world blood are receiued in the holy mysteries but after a heauenly and spiritual manner Epist 50. appropriate vnto our most holy faith As for your deuouring of flesh Optatus was not acquainted with it and the auncient Church of Christ not so much as euer dreamed of so great a monster They sing say you in their Churches the Creed of Athanasius but they fauour him not and why because he praiseth Antony the Hermit You speake wisely as t DVR But doe you thinke Hermits are worthy of any praise whom Athanasius praised in the person of Antony WHIT. pag. 391. Graunt vve vvell approue of the old Hermits yet may we thinke bad enough of your Monkes as vve haue done and professe it for iust causes seeing they differ both so much in manners and iudgements Antonius the Hermits grandfather vvas vvont to say that it was as dangerous for a Monke to go out of his hermitage as for fishes to leaue the water If you praise Antony so much vvhy do you not follovv him vvhy do you svvarme in all cities and famous places and doe not rather liue in some remote wildernesse as fishes swim in the Sea so should you be more like to Antony and free these parts from great damage though we were so enuious that we could not with patience endure any man to be praised nay there is somewhat else Athan. Ep. ad Fel. 2. He with his Synode of Alexandria humblie appealed vnto the sentence of the Apostolike Sea this Epistle is all counterfeit compacted of many lies and monstrous flattery Prudentius I grant as a u DVR Because he was a Poet forgate hee to be a Christian or did he any thing in verse which infinit learned â—athers haue not done before in prose WHIT. pag. 392. Who knovveth not that Poets vvere vvont to vveigh vvhat the verse required more then vvhat piety called for and to follovv the elegancy of poetry more then the streight doctrine of the Scriptures And such liberty of Poets men commonly find no great fault vvith yet see hovv foolish it is to auovv poeticall exornations for reasons in the controuersies of religion And if Prudentius follovved so many Fathers vvhy name you not one of them For 300. yeares after Christ there vvas no such custome in the Church vvhich you affirme so infinite a number of Fathers vsed and it rose vp in the Church but a little before Prudentius daies but both this and all other superstitions must be corrected by the authority of the vvord Poet sometimes called vpon the Martyrs whose acts he describes in verse and the superstitious custome of praying to Saints had now taken deepe roote in the Church which as a Tyrant haled sometimes the holy Fathers into the same error As for Vigillantius and Iouinian against whom Hirrâ—â—â—â— writeth most bitterly if they taught those things that are laid to their charge we maintaine them not That * DVR It seemeth you haue nothing to answere to Ambrose at all WHIT. pag. 393. Haue I answered nothing when a few lines before I affirmed that this superstition had got great footing in the Church was it not answere enough to shew I allowed not the corrupt iudgement of some Fathers What gaine you by this if we professe freely that some Fathers were infected with the errors of the time who yet kept sound doctrine in the fundamentall points whereas notorious corruption hath spread it selfe ouer your whole Church coÌ„sumed it the beginnings of corruptions in them is growne to an height in you without hope of cure Ambrose should be carefull to commend and set sorth the praises of his friends Geruasius and Protasius we willingly permit Neither doe we wholy mislike Gregory with whom surely you haue more cause to be offended then we But wheras he said that Images were lay-mens bookes hee neither learned in x DVR Answere me in vvhat schoole did you learne to breake downe Images not in the schooles of Christians but of Iewes WHIT. pag. 395. I learned it out of the schoole of the holy Ghost Deut 5.8 Iosh 24.23 where wee are taught to worship one God with religious worship and to cast out of the Church to breake and burne the Images of men though neuer so holy Moses beate the Calfe to powder the holy Ghost commended Hezâ—â—â—a for breaking asunder the brazen Serpent though it was set vp by Godâ— authority when the Israelits abused it to superâ—â—â—ion how much more ought we to destroy prophane Images monuments of cursed idolatrie Epiphanius being taught in this schoole rent the vaile which was hung vp in the temple hauing painted innt the picture of Christ or some Saint As also Serenus Bishop of Massilia who tooke downe broke the Images of his time I haue learned this then not out of the schooles of
in corners that Christ is reproched when wee say he was tormented with so great griefes of minde But it is so farre off Campian that I doe either denie or dissemble those things which you now obiect that I doe teach and auow them openly and freely And though the whole nation of Iesuits should set vpon me yet I will neuer be ashamed to celebrate Christs mercie which I see to bee violated by them with vnspeakable iniuries For what thinke you was it that Christ felt which brought so great sadnes and vexation to him that it wrung from him a bloody sweate was it only death 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which takes away life and sense Doe you thinke that Christ could be broken so with the feare of that death that he should conceiue so much griefe in his minde to make him sweate water and blood for the desire he had to escape tasting of that cup which hee came to drinke of Did Christ so much abhorre this death which the Martyrs haue gone vnto ioyfull and cheerefull That were indeede to cast a greater reproch vpon Christ while ye would auoide the lesser Wherefore that which raised so great horrors in Christ was the most bitter wrath of God against mankinde which Christ must needes haue suffered for a time For the whole weight of our sinnes was imposed vpon Christ which brought with it a most heauie remembrance of Gods wrath Seeing therefore Christ our Mediatour being laden with our sins did suffer the greatnes of Gods displeasure and did alone endure the punishment of our sinnes certainly he did quake as man and did expresse those incredible sorrowes of his minde many waies Hence came that speech vpon the Crosse My God my God why hast thou forsaken me which he vttered not fainedly but from his heart not despairingly as you wickedly write but vpon the consideration of Gods wrath which then he was to be subiect vnto m DVR Christ truly was the Sonne of God who knew nothing in himselfe worthie of wrath and so could not feare the paines of hell WHIT. pag. 558. You dispute wittily as if he were not the Sonne of Man also and sustained the person of sinfull men Neither did he so feare hell as you imagine but when the punishment of vs all was vpon him alone he must needs as a man be greatly affected and moued with it For God was exceedingly incensed against vs for our sinnes Christ interposed himselfe and he alone vnâ—erwent the greatnes of that wrath powred vpon him he therfore that saith Christ felt nothing diminisheth the greatnes of sin the iustice of God and the merit of Christ I hat he was not swallowed vp of those torments it must be imputed to the power of his diuine nature DVR But how could hee thinke himselfe forsaken of God vvho offered himselfe vvholy to God WHIT. pag. 559. If be did nor feele this defection why did hee say vainely and rashly that he was forsaken he oâ—â—ed himselfe by his eternall spirit that is his Diuinity Hebr. 9.14 Therefore this freewill offering did not hinder but that he might feele in his mind those sorrowes which men should haue suffered This is that Hell of which Christ while he was aliue and not as you obiect against Caluin after he was dead did taste And certainly this vexation which Christ endured at that time did equall after a sort the very paines of hell But these things are reproued by you because they bee not vnderstood For the Papists with their dull hearts cannot conceiue what Christ performed for vs by his death and what paines hee endured for the satisfying of his Father Therefore they thinke wrong is done to Christ when we say he suffered those things which hee both would and ought to haue suffered for vs. For it was necessarie not onely that Christ should die in n DVR Christ being God and man satisfied the diuine iustice not by the greatnes and multitude of his punishment but by the weight of his actions euerie one of vvhich is sufficient to be a full price of mans redemption Neither vvas it necessary that Christ should vndergoe the same punishment vvhich man should haue suffered as if any man vvould free another from prison vvho is cast into it for debt it is not necessary that be go into prison for him Besides who will say that the body of man aid sinne it is man that sinneth not the bodie WHIT. pag. 562. See I pray you what followeth vpon your defence that it was needlesse that Christ should die at all for if any action of him being God and man would haue satisfied Gods iustice and wrought mans redemption in vaine did hee shead his blood and suffer death But if this be contrary to the decree iustice of God and not euery punishment but extreame sufferings both of body and soule was to be vndergone as Christ suffered in his body the most bâ—â—ter â—eath so did he in his soule exquisite and extreame sorrowes And out of your similitude it will follow â—s well that he need not to haue descended from heauen to haue been made man or to haue suffered any sorrowes and yet who knoweth not that not only the debtors themselues but their suâ—â—ies must be cast into prison till the creditor be saâ—â—fied And seeing that in such a suerty as this not the bare payment of money but a reall suffering of grieuous paines was necessary why should we doubt but Christ hath most truly accomplished the part of a suertie Lastly if the bodie doe not sinne why should it suffer the punishment of sinne for is it equall that the body which in your iudgment doth not sinne should be grieuously and eternally punished for sinne And if it bee as you say that the man doth sinne then must the body haue a finger in it for the soule of it selfe is not a man And if Christ tooke mans sinne vpon him it was certainly the sin of the whole man because he hath redeemed the whole bodie but also in his soule wrastle with death because not onely mans bodie but also his soule had offended God and deserued euerlasting death And they that speak against this doctrine being very full of diuine comfort if Caluin doe prosecute somewhat eagerly no good man ought iustly to bee displeased with him for this cause But that you cannot abide and therefore you cry out Oh wicked daies oh monstrous times It may be you haue seene a monster at Rome or rather many monsters which trouble you now with furious thoughts and vrge you to make an outcrie But we Vniuersitie men are not woont much to bee moued with the clamours of mad men For he ouercomes in the Schooles not who can crie out most shrilly but who caÌ„ dispute most sitly vnto the truth But I pray you Campian spare your voyce a while and gather your wits together and then I trust you will be somewhat milder anon when you haue rested you a
you Ireneus Victor Polycarp Cornelius Cyprian Sixtus Laurentius are ours But I affirme that all these do belong vnto vs let vs then consider how you will perswade vs they are yours Telesphorus enioyned a more strict obseruation of Lent fast appointed by the Apostles e DVR But J proue it by these witnesses Augustine Hierome Basil Ambrose Epiphanius Clemenâ— WHIT. pag. 862. And I proue the contrary by the Fathers August Epist. â—6 writeth plainely that neither Christ not his Apostles ordained any certaine time for fastings And so not Lent Tertul. aduer Psychicos In times past ChristiaÌ„s indifferently fasted of their owne free will as euery mans time and occasions required and not by any coÌ„mand of new gouernmeÌ„t Doth not this ouerthrow the necessary obseruatioÌ„ of Lent Chryso in Mat. hom 47. freely confesseth that Christ did not command vs to imitate his fast But what is Lent but an imitation of it Further Montanus was the first who brought vp set solemne daies of fastings Euseb lib. 5. cap. 17. Finally Ireneus in Eusebius lib. 5. cap. 26. sheweth that in the Primitiue Church there was great variety about the keeping of this fast and that this difference began not in his time only but was long before Therefore it is false that Christ and his Apostles appointed the fast of Fortie daies I deny that the Apostles ordeined any such Lenâ—en fast or that Telesphorus commaunded a more precise obseruation thereof The Apostles were farre from ordeining and Telesphâ—rus from reuiuing so great superstition Clemens his Constitutions where this is reported are not sufficient authoritie But if this fast were prescribed by the Apostles I wonder how afterwards it was discontinued so as it should bee necessarie for Telesphorus to enioyn the keeping of it more precisely especially seeing such strife was in the Church about the celebration of Easter The epistle of Telesphorus wherein he commaunds the 7. weekes fast hath the same authority with the rest of your decretall epistles of your Pope which were not framed by the most holy Bishops themselues but coyned since by the most impudent Parasites of the church of Rome Jren. lib. 4. cap. 43. Ireneus say you declared the Apostolike faith from the succession and sea of Rome So he might well then for as Ireneus elsewhere saith They retained with the succession of Bishops the gratious succession of truth for succession is nothing worth without truth Your Chaire and Sea hath Bishoply succession it hath not the succession of truth Victor say you by his edict subdued Asia He endeuored it indeed Campian but failed of his purpose for being a man very passionate he would needs excommunicate all such Churches of Asia as refused to keepe Easter according to the Romane custome When he began thus insolently to abuse his authority f DVR Neither Ireneus nor any other denied to Pope Victor this power to excommunicate the Churches of Asia WHIT. pag. 863. But Eusebius wriâ—eth lib. 5. cap. 25. that both Ireneus and many other Catholike Bishops sharpely reproued him for assuming that power Ireneus tamed and restrained him As for the controuersie about Easter Victor was so farre from composing and ending it that it coÌ„tinued vnto the g DVR By the same reason you may say the CouÌ„cels decree preuailed nothing to endiâ—â—â— controuersie WHIT. pag. 864. The reason is good proueth that wheÌ„ he could preuaile neither by examples reasons nor threatnings that those Churches did not accouÌ„t Pope Victor for the head of the Church And though after that Councell of Nice some Churches obserued the Passeouer after another manner yet the most Churches followed the iudgement and authoritie of the Councell So the Councell preuailed more then the Pope could doe Councell cell of Nice You may see how well Victor subduer all Asia Polycarpe in the question about Easter went to Rome Smyrna gathered his reliques Wonderfull reasons Polycarpe went to Rome to consult with Anycetus about Easter and Smyrna gathered his reliques ergo Polycarpe is yours Doth not the learned Vniuersities make you ashamed of this childish sophistrie h DVR Enuie maketh you forge an vntruth And whil for eunie you pine avvay aâ— the honor which is giuen of Christians to the reliques of Martyrs you imitate the Jewes and the Diuell WHIT. pag. 865. I haue spoken neither lesse nor more then Eusebius hath written who theÌ„ liued After we had gathered his banes being more precious then pearles and gold we buried them where it was thought sit And as for the reliques of Saiâ—ns I enuy them not the Saints themselues I euer honorablie remember But that the reliques of Saints were worshipped with religiâ—us honor as they are in your Church you shall neuer be able to proue His bones indeed were gathered by the Church of Smyrna not to worship them but to bury them as Eusebius in the same place recordeth But why are Cornelius and Cyprian yours forsooth because Cornelius abolished the i African error and Cyprian had him in great reuerence Oh wonderfull Iesuiticall Logick l DVR His supreame authoritia appeareth in this because hee decreed that controuersie being not the Bishop of Africke but of Rome WHIT. pag. 866. Saint Paul confuted many errors of the Churches of Galatia Coâ—inth Rome and diuers others yet was hee neuer supreame Bishop So did Augustine But what error did he suppresse was it touching Baptisme by heretikes that he neuer could doe but Cyprian and the Bishops of Africke constantly held it which proued they neuer acknowledged that he had any such authoritie who can chuse but be much moued with such strong reasons But let vs heare another Sixtus is ours and why so Seauen of the Clergie ministred vnto him while hee serued at the altar Seauen Deacons helped Sixtus to celebrate the Lords supper ergo Sixtus is yours If this reason be of force let him be yours hardly I will not striue with you about him but herein is nothing why he may not as well be k DVR Pope Sixtus a Priest offred vp the body and blood of Christ Deacons assisting of him could not bee a Caluinist but on our side WHIT. pag. 868. As if we had no Deacons who helpe the Minister when he celebrateth the Lords Supper ours as yours Doth it become you Campian thus to trifle thus to abuse our patience What followeth Laurence is yours how so I pray you Our aduersaries haue cast him out of their Calouder We remember him with reuerence as a saint and a friend of Christ though we worship him not as God But Prudentine prayed vnto him a thousand yeares agoe Giue leaue Campian to a Poet to vse poeticall auersions from whence yet no strong reason can be drawne But if Prudentius were something too superstitious what is that to vs Now you recken vp virgins Câ—cilia Agatha and others but what haue they done why they should not be ours When the Tyrants examined them of their faith they