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authority_n	law_n	power_n	word_n	4,342	5	4.2796	3	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A91654	A reply of two of the brethren to A.S. wherein you have observations on his considerations, annotations, &c. Upon the apologeticall narration. With a plea for libertie of conscience for the apologists church way; against the cavils of the said A. S. formerly called M. S. to A. S. Humbly submitted to the judgements of all rationall, and moderate men in the world. With a short survey of W. R. his Grave confutation of the separation, and some modest, and innocent touches on the letter from Zeland, and Mr. Parker's from New-England.	Parker, Thomas, 1595-1677.; Steuart, Adam.	1644 (1644)	Wing R1048B; Thomason E54_18; ESTC R2612	108,370	124

The combined Eldership with their Authoritative power together with a Law or Covenant whereby all men and Churches under them are bound to submit unto them are as bars of iron and gates of brasse to keep out al those inconveniences irregularities defilements pollutions out of the Presbyterian Temple whereunto it seems the Congregationall temple for want of such stoure and tight provisions lies open But First what if your combined Eldership hath neither footing nor foundation in the Word of God It is not the serviceablenesse of it against a thousand such inconveniences as were mentioned that will justifie it Sauls offering sacrifice was a means to prevent the scattering of the people from him yet Samuel told him that he had done foolishly in it and it cost him his Kingdom 1 Sam. 13.9.13.14 So the putting forth of Vzz●h's hand to stay the Ark was a meanes to keepe it from being shaken but yet the doing of it cost him his life Peters valour and zeale in drawing his sword and laying about him was a likely meanes of rescuing his Master but the Lord Christ preferred the imminent danger of his life before such a rescue and check'd the sword that was drawne for him againe into the sheath That Law and constitution in the Papacie whereby all men all Churches thereof are bound to submit their judgements in matters of Faith to the decision of the Papall Chair is as soveraigne a remedie against all those inconveniences named as that for which Classique Authoritie is so much magnified by you and yet it is never the lesse abominable in the eyes both of God and men The Question is not which Government will serve most turnes but which is most agreeable to the will and Word of God If that of Presbyterie be defective this way as there is extreame cause to feare it is this defect cannot be recompenced or redeemed by any other commendation whatsoever Secondly neither can we with any tolerable satisfaction informe our selves out of all your discourse either what you meane by that Authoritative power which you claime to your combined Eldership nor yet how or by what or whose Authoritie they come to be invested with it As for the power sometimes you deny it to be Magisteriall or such which may not lawfully be declin'd when a man cannot submit unto it without disobedience to God otherwise you make it so irrefragably sacred as if it were no lesser sin then perjurie it selfe to detract it Again for the investiture of your Eldership with this power whether they arrogate it unto themselves and are their own carvers or whether the Civill State and Parliamentarie Law or whether the free and joynt consent of those over whom this power is exercised do conferre and derive it upon them you informe us not but count an ignoramus better then a verdict But till you do resolve us by what Authoritie or power this Authoritative power comes into the hand of your combined Eldership we shall thinke it safer to stand to the hazard and dammage of all the inconveniences spoken of then to subject to it Thirdly if the Law of the State be the first and most considerable band or tye upon men to submit unto the power of your combined Eddership as you seeme here to imply in saying that all men all Churches thereof are bound by Law c. then 1. you must acknowledge that the root and base of your Government is potestas secularis secular authoritie and then how is it Ecclesiastick or spirituall A man may as well bring a clean thing out of an unclean in Jobs expression as make a spirituall extraction out of a secular root Secondly it will rest upon you to prove that the Civill State hath a power to forme and fashion the government of the Churches of Christ Yea thirdly and lastly it will be demonstratively proved against you that you resolve the government of the Churches of Christ in the last resolution of it into the humors wills and pleasures of the world yea of the vilest and most unworthy of men But Fourthly and lastly the Authoritative power of your combined Eldership being granted unto you we doe not see how the inconveniences you find in the Congregationall way will bee much better solv'd in yours For first what if a particular Congregation under the jurisdiction of your Eldership reflecting upon the Oath or Covenant it hath taken for subjection thereunto as likewise upon all other engagements that way as unlawfull shall peremptorily refuse to stand to the awards or determinations of it what will you do in this case How will your combined Eldership remedy this inconvenience What will you excommunicate this Church The Apologists in their way do little lesse and that by a power farre lesse questionable then yours nay in your interpretation they doe every whit as much Or will you deliver them over Brachio secularie to be hamper'd and taught better then it seems you can teach them by prisons fines banishment c. O A. S. remember you tar'd the Apologists for comporting in a very small matter in comparison with the Arminians in case it had been true and will you comply with the Papists in a matter of this high nature Churches had need take heed how they chuse men for their Guardians that will so dispose of them if they please them not Besides you know what was said in the second chapter touching the power of the Magistrate in this case And what if in the Session of your combined Eldership there be no such thing as plurality of votes concerning excommunication of such a Church as it is very possible that in such a meeting the truth may find just as many friends as error hath and no more is not the remedy you spake of now in the d●st Again secondly to touch upon the second inconvenience mentioned when your combined Eldership proceeds against a particular Church amongst you upon offence taken is not this Eldership as well Party as Jud●● If you think you have every whit the better of it because your Eldership though it be both Party and Judge yet hath an authoritative power over those whom it judgeth I answer first that as our Saviour told Pilate He could have no power against him except it were given him from above no more can your Edership have over those whom it judgeth in this case Now how uncertain and faint the probabilities are that they have any power over them given them from above hath been formerly shewed at large And if that power which your Eldership claimeth and exerciseth over the Church arraigned be not from above then the Apologists remedy is farre better and safer then yours Secondly to hold and maintain that all those that have an Authoritative power over men may lawfully by vertue of such power be both parties and Judges is to exalt all manner of tyranny violence and oppression by a Law Upon such a supposition men invested with authority and power

the Papists who pretend to be nothing but one Church meaning that a compliance with them in unity and uniformity will be an exemption to them from their calumnies 3. It is an old piece of subtilty of the old Serpent Sect. 14. to oppose God in his Saints and in his wayes by teaching his Prophets and Agents to make parallels between to sort and to suit Gods servants with his and Gods wayes or works with his that so the foolish and inconsiderate world might be brought to think that God and hee are but one and that there is little or no difference between them How did Jannes and Jambres withstand Moses but by doing the same things in appearance by the help of the Devill which Moses did by the finger of God By this they hardened Pharaoh and the Egyptians with this confidence and conceit that God was no more with Moses then with them A. S. parallels the Apologists with the Arminians hoping to catch the foot of the simple in this snare to make them think that they are both baptized into one and the same spirit you shall finde a further strain of this malignity in him pag. 22. Fourthly and lastly if the Arminians gave that power to the Civill Magistrate which they are here charged to have done Sect. 15. upon hope they would have beene for them they are no Antipodes to A. S. and his fraternitie who deny this power to the Civill Magistrate for feare they should not be for them if they were left free to judge of their owne actions All the lineaments in the face of Presbyterie demonstrate this to be in the heart of it a willingness to conferre all and all manner of power whatsoever upon the Civill Magistrate in matters of Religion which they may be secured will be used to serve their turnes and not to the prejudice or disturbance of them in their way And so A. S. after hee had laboured in the very fire and had ingag'd himselfe to the uttermost to prove the negative he fals off with this glozing close at the last pag. 51. that if the King and Parliament should finde any thing contrary to what he had delivered expedient he had nothing to say against it Therefore of the two Arminians are more charitably affected towards the Civill Magistrate in casting a power upon them out of an hope they would use if for their good then the Presbyterians are in denying this power unto them out of feare they will use it to their damage 6. And lastly Sect. 16. for conclusion of this first Chapter concerning such a Directive power in matters of Religion as A. S. it seemes would here sequester for the honour and service of his Presbyterie when Jesus Christ had declared himselfe willing to divest himselfe and make a delegation of it unto them I shall as willingly acknowledge and adore their parent as any other In the meane time God supporting me I shall with the utmost of my power and in the presence of all discouragements dangers deaths vindicate the rights and prerogatives belonging to the crowne of my great Lord and Master what shall become of me in so doing ipse viderit As for such a Directive power which with the honour and safety of the rights of Heaven is attributable unto men whose character and cognizance is this not to be compulsorie unto men by any externall violence whether directly or indirectly to subscribe against their judgements and consciences to it I can freely allow as much of it to A. S. and his Presbyterial Assemblies as will stand with their peace with God with their honour in the sight of unpartiall and intelligent men with the peace and edification of the Churches of God if they would have more let them looke to it this desire of theirs will in time finde them out and slay them Cap. 2. Concerning that executive coercitive and externall power in matters of Religion which A. S. ascribes unto the Civill Magistrate pag. 6. A. S. in this sixth page to perswade with the Parliament and Civill Magistrate that they shal do God good service to resigne up their eyes patiently into the hands of his Presbyterie feeds them with the commendations of Constantine the Great in refusing an unjust and exorbitant pow●r which the Councell gave to him Where by the way it is somewhat observable that it is a thing incident to Councels and Synods to give unjust exorbitant power unto Civil Magistrates So that it stands the Parliament civil Magistrate in hand before they part with their eyes upon such terms to look about them and to consider twice over what power they receive and accept of from the hand of Councel and Synods especially in reference to matters of Religion and the Churches or servants of Christ It is a terrible saying of Christ enough to make both the ears of Kings and Princes and Parliaments yea and of Synods and Assemblies too to tingle Whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me it were better for him that a milstone were hanged about his neck and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea Matth. 18.6 It is dangerous medling with Saints in any other way then of tenderness and love be the never so few in number never so weak in power or otherwise one of these little ones saith Christ All the 21. Reasons with 41. more put to them whereby A. S. incites the Parliament against a toleration of the Apologists with men of their judgement in the sequele of his discourse will not deliver either the King or Parliament out of the hand of that threatning if they come under the dint of it by offering any violence shall I say yea any offence to the least of these little ones The Holy Ghost I Cor. 15.24 prophesieth of the putting down of all rule and all authority and power by Christ the reason thereof in the words immediatly following hee sheweth to be their enmity unto him for hee must reign saith the Apostle Vers 25. till he hath put all his enemies under his feet The truth is that it is a very hard matter even for the best of men in places of rule authority and power to move regularly in their own orb and not to mistake or strain beyond the tenour of their commission to intermeddle in the affairs of Christ considering first that they are compassed about with their own infirmities as well as other men secondly in respect of their callings they are compassed about with more tentations this way then other men thirdly and lastly which is as much or more then both the former if they be Christians what between the insinuations and flatteries of the baser and the inconsiderate affections and favour of the better sort of Teachers they are taught to dash their foot against this stone as if it were another crown of glory to them But let us first see Sect. 2. what that executive or coercive if it

be lawfull to cut A. S. a syllable shorter power is which the man with both hands and an importune bounty will needs bestow upon the Civill Magistrate 2 By what authority and upon what grounds he doth it For the first hee describes and states this power after this manner pag. 6. The Parliament pretends no Directive power in matters of Religion nor any executive power that is intrinsecall to the Church but only an executive coercitive and externall power which is not in but about the Church and for the Church whereby it compelleth refractory men to obey the Church And this authority belongs actually and in effect in actu exercito as they say to true Christian Magistrates but to others potentially in actufignato and jure in rem only till they become true Christians c. In this description the man is to me a Barbarian his own phrase to the Apologists in the word Church Sect. 3. I have bestowed thoughts more then a few to be partners with him in his notion of the word but quanto plus cogito co minus capio For shame A. S. out with the beam of obscurity from your own eye before you tiffle again to pull the moat of obscurity out of your brothers eye A man in reason would think that the same word being used four or five times and that without the least intimation of any variety or difference of signification almost within the compasse of so many lines were still meant and to be taken in one and the same sense If so then ha with you The Parliament by that coercitive power which you are pleased here to bestow upon it by way of compensation for that directive power which you take from it compelleth say you refractory men to obey the Church I presume that by the Church here you do not mean all the particular Churches and Congregations in the kingdome in the folio of their respective members but in the deoimo sexto of their Synod representative Assembly If you take the word in the former sense you only say that the Parliament hath power to compell the refractory to obey all the particular Churches with their severall members in the Kingdome which is a sense I conceive at as much defiance with your ends as with your and our understandings If you take it in the latter which I doubt not but is your beloved sense then your meaning is that the use and intent of that executive coercive power in matters of Religion which you put into the Parliaments hands is to compell the kingdome in case it be refractory or tot quot to obey the Presbyterie and Presbyteriall assemblies in all their Canons Determinations and Decrees whatsoever without bail or mainprise without mercy or compassion whether a man findes sap sense savour reason or Religion in them or no. But yet secondly Sect. 4. I know not well how you should mean the Church contracted in her Grand Presbyterie or Generall Assembly neither first because you affirm in this coercive power in the Parliament to be not in but about the Church and for the Church And I doubt your meaning is not that the Parliament should either only or chiefly work or act with this their coercive power upon your Ecclesiastique Assemblies to restrain and keep them within compass though I confess if it should move only or chiefly in this sphere it would be more for the Church i. for the good and benefit of the Church in generall then to suffer such assemblies to fit and impose oaths upon men to obey their acts orders and decrees which you tell us glorying in your shame pag. 42. is done in your Presbyteriall Government and to punish or crush those that shall have more conscience then to inslave themselves unto them in such a way And 2. if by Church you should here mean the Church representative as it is more commonly then properly called in her generall Assembly you would be a little more open then I conceive will well stand with your principles in such cases For then your meaning is plainly this That the Parliament hath that executive coercive power which you ascribe to it not for the Church i. the benefit of the Saints and servants of God throughout the kingdome but for the benefit and behoof of the Ecclefiastique Presbyteries and Assemblies only Now however I can easily believe that thus you would have it yet I conceive it somewhat eccentricall to your other motions to profess it And yet 3. when you immediately adde that in vertue of this authority when parties pretend to be effended by the Church or if the Church judge any thing amiss hee the civill Magistrate may command the Church to revise and examine its judgement c. You must needs mean your transcendent Church of Presbyters otherwise you should prevaricate and grant a judiciary power to particular Congregations 4. And lastly in the very next page pag. 7. Sect. 5. to represent the voluntary exile of the Apologists with as hard-favour'd an aspect in the eyes of men as he could his indignation against it utters it self in this Patheticall strain over the poor Church of God in this Kingdome And if they all had fled away what might have become of the poor Church of God in this Kingdome c. Here by the Church of God in this Kingdome he cannot mean the Ecclesiastique Church of representing Presbyters because if these had all fled away there had been no Church of God in such a sense in this Kingdome By the Church of God in this place if he means any thing like a man hee must needs mean the godly part in the Kingdom and that considered without their Presbyters or Pastours And oh that hee and his coopinatory party would but grant that that executive coercive power which is in the civil Magistrate is for this Church I mean for the benefit and peace of this Church of God But in the mean time you see that his Trumpet in the Description he gives of his executive coercive externall power in the Magistrate gives no distinct sound perhaps he blew wild on purpose lest an enemy should know how to prepare to battaile against him But is there never a blessing of reason or truth in all this cluster Come and see In vertue of this authoritie saith he when parties pretend to be offended with the Church or the Church judge any thing amisse Sect. 6. he the Civill Magistrate may command the Church to examine its judgement c. In these few words he hath plainly plundred and undone a very confiderable partie of his owne beloved notions elsewhere For 1. What reason hath he to be so invective against the Apologists as he is pag. 49. and 50. for holding that Kings or civill Magistrates are above the Church when as himselfe here professeth that they may command the Church especially his own Maxime elsewhere being this that Par in parem non habet imperium and that

the Apologists p. 4. that you saw them no wayes minded to submit themselves in these matters of conscience to the desires of the Parliament I verily beleeve that did their judgements depend upon their wills as it seems yours doe they would have been as freely willing to have submitted in all things unto the desires of the Pa●liament as you are But 6. If our wills be weak Sect. 8. and thereby are hindred from seeing that goodly vision of Presbyterian Government in the practice of the Jewish Church which you see what doe you contribute or afford us towards the healing and strengthening of them Nay doe you not rather occasion that which is weak in this kind to be quite turned out of the way For when you tell us as you doe pag. 13. 1. that the adaequate end of your Presbyteriall government is the externall peace of the Church And 2. that the power thereof consists first in the creation suspension and deposition of Church-officers secondly in determining matters of Doctrine thirdly in making Ecclesiasticall lawes concerning things indifferent c. all which you tell us on a heap pag. 42. you both make us very loth and unwilling to find your government there and withall very confident that there it is not to be found For First Sect. 9. was the adaequate end of the government of that Church the externall peace of the Church Had it nothing in designe for the spirituall good for the edification of the members of it in knowledge faith and holinesse Was the power of the high Priest given him only to keep the Church in externall peace I thought that to provide for the externall peace of the Church had rather appertained to the civill Magistrate and government then to the Ecclesiastick and it is the Apostle himself that thus thoughteth me 1 Tim. 2.2 where he enjoyneth that supplications prayers c. be made for Kings and all that are in authority that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honesty Secondly neither doe I find in the practise of that Church any power given to the combined rulers and governours thereof for the creation suspension deposition of Church-officers I read of the deposition of a Church-officer and no mean one neither by the Civill Magistrate 1. King 2.27 So Solomon cast out Abiathar from being Priest unto the Lord c. but of any such deposition by the combined rulers of that Church I remember not that I have read But 3. As for any power of determining matters of Doctrine Sect. 10. this is further out of my ken in the practice of that Church then any thing else I know not well what A. S. means by his phrase of Determining matters of Doctrine but in my notion and in the Grammaticall and proper sense of the word Determine the claim of such a power riseth up as a high partition-wall between me and his Government If by a power of determining matters of doctrine he meanes nothing else but a liberty or ability of discussing and arguing such matters and of recommending the issues and results of such discussions unto the Churches as consonant in their judgements to the truth with a proposall of their desires unto the Churches to consider well of them and to embrace them if they can so judge and conceive of them I have nothing to oppose against this power But if by his power to determine matters of Religion he means a power of concluding or defining what men shall be bound in conscience to receive and beleeve for truth and shal be look'd upon as sinning in case they doe it not whether they see sufficient ground for what is so concluded and obtruded upon them or not which I partly beleeve to be A. S. his sense I am sure is the proper sense of the word such a power is and I think ever will bee the first-born of the abhorrings of my soul I confesse I cannot be over-confident that A.S. intends the residence of such a power as this in his Presbyterian Assemblies partly because he speakes somewhat like a man in this behalfe elsewhere supposing it to be safe even for a few men to dissent from all the world Paget Defence of Church government pag. 29. in case they have very strong reasons for their dissent pag. 22. and requires no subjection in particular Congregations unto the judgment of Senats or Assemblies but according to Gods word pag. 28. I trust he means so apprehended by the congregation without this there is no subjection according to Gods word And again pag. 68. acknowledgeth it as an undoubted maxime that the church hath no absolute power in her judgments c. with many savoury expressions in this kind partly also because I find this indulgence generally subscribed with Presbyterian pens That the authority which Classes and Synods exercise is not absolute nor their Decrees held to be infallible but to be examined by the word of God and not to be received further then they do agree b●rewith And yet on the other hand I confesse that I cannot conceive or comprehend how A.S. his government can hold up her head like her selfe if this Iron-mace be taken out of her hand For my part if this one Article of a liberty to wave Presbyteriall Injunctions and Decisions in case of a non liquet from the word of God to him to whom they are tendered will bee but assented unto and candidly kept and performed it would be the best Mediator I know to reconcile my thoughts and judgement to it 4. Nor can I in the practice of the Jewish Church Sect. 13. find either vola or vestigium of a power granted unto the Rulers thereof to make Ecclesiasticall laws concerning things indifferent I rather find a prohibition served upon them for making any such laws Ye shall put nothing unto the word which I command you nor shall you take ought therefrom c. Deut. 4.2 So again Chap. 12.32 If A. S. can but produce one example of any such Law or Constitution made by them he shall be a good benefactor to the penury of my notions and in consideration thereof I will bestow upon him a dashing out of this peece of his charge 5. And lastly Sect. 12. in the practice of the Jewish Church the Prelaticall Schoole sees a vision or platforme of her government also And A.S. by your leave the High-Priest as well in his Authoritie as in his robes and holy accoutrements did farre more plausibly sympathize with Metropoliticall state and greatnesse then with Presbyteriall For my part I am not able to discern in all the practice of the Jewish Church from the one end of it unto the other any peece straine or veine of such a patterne as A. S. speaks of Surely the vision is so condition'd as not to be seen but upon Presbyterian ground The man did wisely in granting that he had no formall or expresse patterne for his government either