holy Yet because God onely hath this glorye to be absolutelye perfect in wisedome and knowledge it must needes be graunted that some imperfection maye be in their lawes For it is incident vnto men for to erre Put case then they in some pointes swarue from the truth and it be afterwarde made knowne vnto men whome God doth further lighten Shall their conscience bee tyed therevnto If they finde Gods worde to goe one waye and the law in some thing an other which thinke you they oughte to cleaue vnto Shall they saye thus they were wise that set foorth the lawe we will follow them Is not God then dishonoured and denyed when men are preferred before him Shoulde they not rather obey God then men Is it then disobedience when they refuse a commaundement of men because they dare not disobey God It is not for any man rashely and stubbornly to reiect lawes nor in his owne wilfull conceite to depraue them but if with a sober minde and good conscience grounded vppon Gods worde which hee knoweth to bee against anye law he doe with an humble heart refuse to obey the same law though men call him rebell yet before God he shall bee cleared as an obedient man Philochrematos What is al this to the purpose who doth denye any part of that which you say You sayd that the very mind of our Lawes is that nothing shoulde be which is against Gods word thereuppon I did inferre that their offence is the greater which disobey them I thought ye would haue confuted that and haue shewed somewhat as ye sayd which I doe not yet see Orthodoxos You doe interrupt me I was comming vnto that point I am glad yee graunt that the wisest men may faile and that it is no disobedience in a man that refuseth to doe a thing inioyned by them when hee seeth it is agaynst Gods worde Nowe to the other poynt you say the more Godly the Lawes are the greater is their offence that disobeye them I say so also but you gather this out of my wordes when I sayde that the minde and intent of our Lawe is that whatsoeuer is against God and his word shoulde bee throwne downe If men did neuer erre then that shoulde alwaies followe which you woulde inferre But seeing they fayle often in some poyntes which onely shoote at that in making their laws to haue them agree with Gods word it is but a foolish cōclusion which you make Now marke what followeth vppon this which you do not consider if it fal out that they establish something which is against the worde their minde is that the same shoulde be established so soone as it is espied to bee so the more godly they are the more is their intent that way Then to the purpose you say the laws of Godly men are disobeied I saye it is not their mind if they be godly that any thing by them set down should be obeied if it be found to be against the worde of God For this were to deny the lawe makers to be godly to say that what soeuer they haue once decreed they will haue it obeied be it found to bee agreeable to the trueth or against the trueth Philochrematos This is a very vnwise speeche and such as woulde breede al confusiō For by this means euery priuate man shall be a Iudge and controwler of the Law Againe the Law-makers cannot set down any penalty to be inflicted vppon the breakers of Lawes For if this be that the law shall bee challenged to be against the worde of GOD and therefore to haue no power euen by the minde of those which made it then howe shall those which haue executiō of laws discharge their 〈◊〉 they can not dispence with the penalty of the Lawe Lawes cannot be dissolued but by the same authoritie that they were confirmed Orthodoxos Some men take nothing to be wiselye spoken but that which commeth out of their own mouth and their confused minde imagineth confusion where none is Euery priuate man that will bee a true Christian ought to bee so well instructed that he know the thinges he doth are commaunded by God and if any thing be commanded him by man which in his owne Conscience he knoweth to be forbidden by the worde of God it is not the lawe that shall excuse him in his deed Do you thinke that this is a good excuse which Athiestes make when they haue liued in two or three Princes dayes and professed contrary religions to say we are priuate men wee may not iudge of Laws but we wil demaunde are priuate men to bee Iudges and controwlers of Lawes surely in that sence which you speak they are not for it is a very disordered thing that euerye priuate man shoulde bee an open reproouer and controwler of Laws much lesse may priuate men take vppon them to be reformers But thus farre a priuate man may go for the keeping of his owne Conscience pure he is to iudge of Laws and humbly to submit him selfe to the penalty where hee seeth he may not obey and for the other difficulty which you make is not the penalty against such as do contemptuously maliciously and wilfully despise and breake Lawes Doe not the wise Law-makers presuppose such executors of Iustice as shall be able to discerne whether it be wilfully and stubbornly that refusall is made or vppon good grounde of conscience I would to God it were not that some executors of Iustice did rather come nigher the breaking of their othe by turning the edge of the Lawe against such as it meant moste of all to fauour and cherishe and the backe towards those whom it purposed to cut downe and that greeuous corruptions were not cloked couered with pretence of law Philochrematos If yee can not prooue this yee are worthy to smart for it I doe not thinke there bee any such executors of Laws The Iudges in the Commonwealth they be learned and wise and as for ecclesiastical gouernours they were neuer more graue and learned they bee farre from cloking and couering any corruptions as you say with the pretence of Lawe Orthodoxos I will not meddle with the ciuill Magistrates or with their doinges But this I will saye for Ecclesiasticall Iudges that horrible corruptions passe thoroughe theire Handes Yea suche and so many that if it please not GOD in his greate mercy to looke vppon vs they will lay waste the Church and hazard the common wealth Philochrematos Ye doe but slander and accuse falsely the Puritanes are they which destroye the Churche and Common wealthe they are the Vipers which gnawe oute the Bowelles of theire owne Mother Orthodoxos It is an easye matter barelye to affirme or denye the worst men of all as the scribes Pharisees did accuse our Sauioure Christe and sayde he was a naughty man affirming that them selues were good men The Pope and his Shauelinges did cry oute vppon Luther and all other true Seruauntes of GOD calling them Heretiques
are good Where God enioineth no obedience there can bee no disobedience by refusing As for example some prince doth command his subiectes to worship Idols or some other thing which God doth forbid them they refuse to do it not of stubbernesse but of conscience towards God will ye say they be disobedient but you sée well inough that this weapon wil not serue and therfore yee are content to cast it down and to retier your selfe into a strong hold as you imagine For who shall iudge of maters whether they be according to gods word say you which part shal we beleeue What are yee a Papist Yee runne into the same holde that they doe when they fight They demand in like sort who shall iudge which part is worthier of credite If wee shall confesse your argument to be good and sound how shall we denie it when it commeth from them bumbasted and set foorth with greater might For when you saye all the wisest and learnedest of Nobility Iudges and bishops haue done it howe shall a fewe inferiour personnes controll them or be wiser then they Wil they alowe that which is not agreeable vnto Gods word Then the Papistes may say when as their religion hath been established by all the wisest Princes Bishops and Counsellers with so general consent of so many ages not of one Realme but assembled out of a great sort of Countries and Prouinces How shall a fewe for the Nobles Iudges Bishoppes and others in a Parliament holden in one kingdome are but a fewe vnto theire multitude controll them If twentie or thirty learned byshops in one Land assembled together can not set foorth or allow any thing but that which is good how shall fowre or fiue hundred choise Fathers out of all countries be ouerseene Oh sir if this were a good reason the Gospell might lye in the dust If it bee good with vs why shoulde it not be good when the Papists doe vse it Especiallye when they haue more right vnto it because theire multitude hath beene farre greater Howe wise you and manye other which vse this argument doe take your selues to be I pray yee did ye not vse it in the daies of Quéene Marie will you refuse to go vnto the masse will you be wiser then the Queene the Counsell all the learned Byshops Doubtles in this point yee are very wise that ye haue layd a foundation that will beare any frame Yée may go through all times and chaunges of religion For whatsoeuer a Parliament doth set vp yee will haue it by and by no further examined Philodoxos The general counsels of the Papists are not like the Parliament neither do ye well to compare them so togeather For they looked to mans inuentions but our Byshops haue regarded only the word of God Orthodoxos Let that be some difference as in deede God bee blessed there is great difference albeit the Popishe Byshops professed to do all by the word Yet neuerthelesse you must proue that thirty or fortie learned Byshops looking only to the word of God can not swerue in any thing from truth before this can follow that no part of their doings may be controwled Philodoxos Ye do not heere mee saye that no part of their doing may be controwled but I say this when so many graue lerned byshops haue decreed it shal it be controwled by a few greene and light heades Can those which are nothing so many nor so learned nor in no respect to be esteemed so much see more then they It is like as if all the iudges in the Lande had agreed vppon a case and an vtter barester or one which hath studied the Lawes but two or three yeares shoulde controule them Orthodoxos Yee liken it as if all the Iudges in the Lande had agreed vpon a Case and then a verye young Studente in the Lawe should take vpon him to controwle them all when a fewe as you say greene heades refuse to doe euerye thing that the Byshoppes conclude vppon I knowe it is a straunge thing and incredible that all the Iudges in the land should misse in a Case and not bee able to sée that which some one of small knoweledge should see but yet yee must knowe that the Case is not altogeather lyke in Heauenlye matters which men can not reache vnto by study wit as they do vnto earthly but wher God doth inwardly lighten teach by his spirit Now God hath not tyed him selfe vnto multitude nor vnto yeares but where it pleaseth him to reueale and therefore one poore man bringing reason and authoritie out of the holy Scriptures is more to be esteemed then tenne thousande great Bishoppes standing vppon their consent without warraunt of the worde The Priestes in the lawe boldened them selues with the like reason to consult to strike Ieremias Ierem. 18. The law say they shall not perish from the Priest and counsell from the wise and the worde from the Prophet In like maner worldly wise men doe securelie blind them selues hanging their faith vpon probabilitie and not searching déeply into the matter Againe yée doe falslye and vntruely in your comparison to liken the one part as it were to al the iudges in the land the other to a yong studēt in the law For set the Papists a side the multitude of learned men against whom you speake are more in number thē al the bishops Deanes Archdeacons and bishops Chaplains in this land For ye must looke vpon the faithfull seruaunts of God in other Lands If yee respect learning there are none in our Land but such as are impudent that wil compare with some of them Philodoxos Why should not we thinke there bee as manye learned men of our lande as in any other Orthodoxos God be blessed there be great lerned men in our land but yet I doubt not but they wil confes that the Lord raised vp some in other Landes whome he made the cheefe and principal Instrumentes to restore his Gospell the fruite of whose labours doth spread so farre that in all Churches they are famous yea there is no one man which is a true minister of Iesus Christ but he hath iust cause to blesse and praise God for them Such was M. Luther M. Caluine M. Beza M. Tremellius and others I know in deede ther bee of our men whom the Church might spare wel ynough for any good they euer did vnto it which will not stick to compare with the best of these to take themselues rather to be their superiours Other men wil so estéem of them also when they haue approoued them selues to bee such faithfull seruauntes of Christ and haue done the like good to the Churche that those other did in the meane time euery wise man will iudge as he findeth Philodoxos I know these whom you name are famous men but what haue they to doe with our church Orthodoxos Haue you got that by the end also surely I cannot tell what
eyes of those which made them that they may sée and be ashamed and repent But you say if there be such offence in making ministers yet inferiours are not to meddle it is a sawcines in them it is publique authoritie that must refourme No deubt it is publique authoritie that must refourme But what then Are the ministers of Gods word when they publishe his will become sawcie Shall the great God whose messengers they are be dishonoured his church laid waste and his people destroyed because they must respect persons Doe not you know that God sendeth his seruauntes euen vnto high and low to reprooue them when they do amisse You shew your selfe to be proud and sawcie against God that yee will haue his worde giue place vnto mortall men Were not the most of the Prophetes inferiour persons and yet they reprooued openly the high Priestes when they did degenerate and spared not any of what degrée soeuer The Pope and his Bishops can chalenge no more then to doe what they luste and that without controlement of anye but them selues which affirme that the power to redresse thinges is onely in their hands We may not giue those titles vnto euill ministers that the Prophetes in the scriptures do And why Because we haue not the spirite of the Prophetes This is as deepe deuinitie as any that yee could dig out of the bottome of a Dunghill I pray yee what Spirite shal the Preachers of the Gospell be furnished with all if not with that holye Spirite of God which the Prophets spake by Is there an other holye Ghoste In deede the Prophetes had great and extraordinary giftes of the spirite to doe that which we cannot But doth it therefore follow that we may not reprooue sin as they did It is one principall part of the duetie of the Teachers where in they are to follow the steps of the Apostles and Prophets The offence is publike and open euerye where and yet men must be restrained frō speaking publikely against it But you shew diuers great hurtes that ensue by open reproouing this matter The ministry yee say is brought into contempt by this meanes and it were much better mens infirmities were couered then that should happen As though the true ministerie coulde be brought into contempt by reprouing that which is corrupt It shoulde rather bee considered that it shoulde bring them into contempt with god and all Godly men if they should not reprooue them For then they might séem to shake hands with them to alow their vngodlines not to care how this high calling be defiled by laying it vpō vile persons they might also be thought not to pity the soules of men do not you sée that if fools which are base beggerly and vnciuil and of lewd conuersation shoulde be made Iudges it woulde be the greatest disgrace to the office that might bee The hurt resteth not you shew in defacing the ministry but reacheth vnto those that made them In deed it is their discredite which made them And that is the cause why the true teachers are hunted and tossed about For if they preach against the insufficiencie of any of the ministery or against their lewde life which all see Then they post vp and carry newes My lord such and such preach against your Lordship I warrant yee those teachers shal haue as much a doe to defend them selues as to teach their people But this is that which doth marre all when those that be of honour are by any meanes brought into contempt For they doe countenaunce the Gospell and the ministry and were it not for them the Gospel should be little esteemed nor the ministers thereof Alasse is the glorye of the Gospel no greater nor the dignitie of the ministerie no more but that they must ebb and flowe with the worldly honour and glorye of some men How vnwise do yee take our Sauiour Christe to be that he layde his glory a side and tooke vppon him the shape of a Seruaunt Phil. 2.6 that he might bee a minister of the Gospell How vnskilfull was he in choosing such simple men to be his Apostles as hadde no glorye to countenaunce the matter Hee might haue come with greater pompe But he sayeth My kingdome is not of this worlde Iohn 18. verse 36. Saint Paule sayeth The weapons of our warfare are not carnall but mightye in God 2. Corinth 10. If that were a good reason which you make then were it a speciall matter that there shoulde be as great glorye and pomp in the ministerie as euer the Pope and his Cardinalles had For the same reason set them vp at the firste No no the dignitie and estimation of the ministerye doth consist in the power of Gods spirite in them 1. Corinth 2. verse 4. This spirite doth alwayes cause those ministers to be had in great reuerence in whom he speaketh although they be neuer so base in outwarde appearaunce as Paule was Contrarywise let a minister of the Gospell glister in Golde and sit so high in glory and power that his feet be aboue the heades of Emperours and Kinges yet neuerthelesse hee shall be vile and euen stincke in the nostrels of men beeing voyde of the power of the spirite which is the furniture of a right minister For God sayth I wil honour those that honour me and they that despise me shal be despised 1. Sam. 2. ver 30. And what sayth the Lord by the Prophet Malachy vnto the Priestes Chapi 2. verse 9 Doth he not tell them that because they departed out of the waye hee had made them despised and abiect vnto all the people Then yee see it is God that bringeth such as bee of great dignitie into contempt because they degenerate yee saye the people are vnquieted because they can not tell whom they maye beleeue It is a lamentable thing that they haue in these dayes beene kept in such blindnesse that they can not trie the Spirits 1. Iohn 4.1 Iohn 10. nor are not able to know the voyce of Christ or at the least can not see who walke after the worde of God and who doe not Philochrematos I graunt it is a readie way to destroye the Church where mens soules are famished Who goeth about any such matter God be thanked the worde was neuer more plentifully set foorth They need not famish for where they haue not a Preacher yet they haue the Scriptures read vnto them in their owne language they haue Prayers and Homelyes as good as anye can bee made There bee manye good Bookes they maye reade or heare them read but such as you that condemne reading are those that famish mens souls if any do Yee are vngodlie and vtter enimies to mens souls when ye wil lead them frō the Scriptures vnto your expositions as though they could profite by hearing and reading youres and not by the reading of the Byble Where ther be blinde guides and hirelings the people perish no man doth deny that you
as are manifest and doe hurt in our Church had need to do nothing else for one whole day and take the longest in the year Your accusations against vs be stale when ye charge vs to haue conspired with the Papistes and to haue the properties of the Annabaptists Your own consciences do witnes that wee are farre from these sortes of men The Papists and Annabaptists knowe well enough that of all other we doe least serue their turne Wee loue the Papistes so well that we wish there were not a shread of their Kingdome left nor so much as one relique of theirs euer to bee seene among vs. The end of all our trauail is to builde vp the walles of Hierusalem and to set vp the throne of Iesus Christe our Heauenlie King in the middest thereof and to bring the people in subiection vnto him howe soeuer Sanballat and Tobiah doe accuse vs that wee meane to rebell You pray that we may he cut short and that yee may not feele anie further the effect of our seditious Doctrine It is the Doctrine of Iesus Christe and the effect of it which you feare is to cut downe worldlie pompe Couetousnesse and idlenesse in the ministerie You feare that if it take place that you must parte with two of youre Benefices Naie you feare that you shall get no higher there bee manie of yee which haue layde a Platfourme howe to come vnto wealthe and dignitie Yee fear that the great roomes will bee little woorth before youre turne come and that dothe cause you to frette and rage againste the Preachinge of the Gospell Yee deuise all the fleshlie reasons which yee can to maintaine and vpholde Corruptions Yee beate youre Braynes and spende youre Wittes to deface Gods Ordinaunces and why doe yee this forsoothe euen for the Churches sake for the peace of the Churche and for Obedience and good order Yea euen as muche as Iudas had a care for the Poore It is well seene that if there were not greate wealth and honoures for which yee contende yee woulde scarce open youre mouthe for suche matters as nowe yee defende as eagarlie as if it stood vppon your liues The Ministers of the Gospell must alwaies passe thorough troubles but the Lorde Iesus will looke vnto them Philochrematos There are none so couetous and ambitious as your selues And that maketh yee to grudge and repine at those which haue wealth and honour because yee can not come by it Yee are loath to bee inferiours your mindes be so proud and stately I know if a man will hearken to all your slaunders and false accusations you can hold him a whole day yea three dayes and let them be the longest in the yeare but tell but truth and then a lesse time wil serue well ynough As I sayd before if there were matter it shoulde not be couered Orthodoxos Yee say we conspire with the Papistes but your maner of dealing is so like theirs that a man would think ye were ioyned together in the defence of one cause For when Luther dealt against the pope by by they cried out that it was because he could not come to that preferment which he desired So play you against vs when we reprooue those forenamed vices in the Cleargie For yee say we doe it because we can not abide to be inferiours and because we can not come to dignitie and wealth this wicked surmise of yours hath no colour or shew of trueth It is well knowne that there be not a few which could as easily come to their Benefices as you if they woulde labour for them and that might attaine vnto great dignity if they woulde set their minde that way but they haue learned that such as bend them selues to seeke after liuings and promotions do not serue the Lorde Iesus but their own bellies If you could iustly charge men that they had sought and laboured for dignity and yet missed then were there some cause for ye to say so but seeing it is otherwise me thinketh if there were but a drop of common honesty in ye such speech could not be vttered Ye do also iump with the papists after this sort when the Seruaunts of God reprooued the pride of the Pope then what was the common voice but that if these men bee not looked vnto haue at Kings next So now reprooue Ambition and worldly pompe in the Cleargy and what followeth Let princes and Noble men take heede these men will haue a fling at them shortly but blessed be GOD it is well seene that the casting downe of the Pope is the exaltation of Princes For while he standeth like that prowde Senacharib King of Ashur euery Rabsaka yea euerie one of his Captaines will take himselfe to bee as good as King Ezechias Iesa 36. ver 9 But let this go You vrge me to speake of abuses and you say that if I speak but the trueth a short time will serue But I say hee that will declare the corruptions but of your spirituall Courtes hee maye hold himself occupied a good peece of a day and yet speake but trueth I know not where a man shoulde beginne or whome he shall finde to be the worst the Iudge himselfe or the Scribe the Proctors or the Summoners This is sure all of them regard nothing but Money All the whole Court is guided by one rule but that is a Golden rule The people maie not speake a worde for if they doe they bee Rebelles Rebelles and speake against the Queenes authoritie When as in deede the Queenes Lawes are broken and her Subiectes greatly abused Philochrematos Marke your doinges who will and hee shall finde this property in yee that all your drift is agaynste authoritie Nowe the spirituall Courtes come in great corruptions are in them If it be as you saye it is pitty they shoulde stande But it is well seene howe soeuer suche as you barke agaynste them that as they bee appoynted for correction of Vices so they doe muche good none repine at them but such as can not abide to bee punished for their disorders If some officer doe amisse at some time as all can not bee good what reason is it that yee should so lewdlie accuse the whole Courte you make the Iudges the Scribes the Proctors and Summoners all alike If I were an Archdeacon Officiall or Commissarie I would take the lawe against ye for a slaunder You say al is done for monie the Lawes are broken and the Queenes subiectes are abused I doubt not but if yee were put to your proofe yee woulde eate your wordes Orthodoxos He that will marke shall finde this quality in a number of yee that a man cannot so soone speake against corruptions and abuses in such as abuse their authority but straightway yee accuse him as one which can not abide to bee vnder anye gouernment because hee woulde not be corrected for his disorders You knowe well ynough that this is a shrewde accusation to bring men into