his first coming to the Crown of England did endeavour it but could not prevail But for all that I believe the Scotch have now as many priviledges in England as any Nation had in Rome of those which were so as you say made Romans for they are all Naturalized and have right to buy Land in England to them and their Heirs B. 'T is true of them that were born in Scotland after the time that King James was in possession of the Kingdom of England A. There be very few now that were born before But why have they a better right that were born after than they that were born before B. Because they were born Subjects to the King of England and the rest not A. Were not the rest born Subjects to King James and was not he King of England B. Yes but not then A I understand not the subtilty of the distinction but upon what Law is that distinction grounded is there any Statute to that purpose B. I cannot tell I think not but it is grounded upon Equity A. I see little equity in this that those Nations that are bound to equal obedience to the same King should not have equal Priviledges and now seeing there be so very few born before King Jame's coming in what greater priviledges had those ingrafted Romans by their Naturalization in the State of Rome or in the State of England the English themselves more than the Scotch D. Those Romans when any of them were in Rome had their voice in the making of Laws A. And the Scotch have their Parliaments wherein their assent is required to the Law there made which is as good Have not many of the Provinces of France their several Parliaments and several Constitutions yet they are all equally Natural Subjects to the King of France And therefore for my part I think they were mistaken both English and Scotch in calling one another Foreigners Howsoever that be the King had a very sufficient Army wherewith he marched towards Scotland and by that time he was come to York the Scots Army was drawn up to the Fronteers and ready to march into England which also they presently did giving out all the way that their march should be without damage to the Countrey and that their Errand was onely to deliver a Petition to the King for the redress of many pretended Injuries they had received from such of the Court whose counsel the King most followed so they passed through Northumberland quietly till they came to a Ford in the River of Tine a little above Newcastle where they found some little opposition from a party of the King's Army sent thither to stop them whom the Scots easily mastered and as soon as they were over seized on Newcastle and coming farther on upon the City of Duresme and sent to the King to desire a Treaty which was granted and the Commissioners on both sides met at Rippon the conclusion was that all should be referred to the Parliament which the King should call to meet at Westminster the third of November following in the same year 1640. And thereupon the King returned to London B. So the Armies were disbanded A. No The Scotch Army was to be defrayed by the Counties of Northumberland and Duresme and the King was to pay his own till the disbanding of both should be agreed upon in Parliament B. So in effect both the Armies were maintained at the King's Charge and the whole Controversie to be desided by a Parliament almost wholly Presbyterian and as Partial to the Scotch as themselves could have wished A. And yet for all this they durst not presently make War upon the King there was so much yet left of Reverence to him in the Hearts of People as to have made them odious if they had declared what they intended they must have some colour or other to make it be believed that the King made War first upon the Parliament And besides they had not yet sufficiently disgraced him in Sermons and Pamphlets nor removed from about him those they thought could best counsel him therefore they resolved to proceed with him like skilful hunters First to single him out by men disposed in all parts to drive him into the open field and then in case he should not seem to turn head to call that making a War against the Parliament And first They called in question such as had either Preached or written in defence of those Rights which belonging to the Crown they meant to usurp and take from the King to themselves whereupon some few Writers and Preachers were Imprisoned or forced to fly The King not protecting these they proceeded to call in question some of the King 's own Actions in his Ministers whereof they Imprison'd some and some went beyond Sea and whereas certain persons having endeavoured by Books and Sermons to raise Sedition and committed other Crimes of high Nature had therefore been censured by the Kings Council in the Star-Chamber and Imprisoned the Parliament by their own Authority to try it seems how the King and the people would take it for their Persons were inconsiderable ordered their setting at Liberty which was accordingly done with great Applause of the People that flocked about them in London in manner of a Triumph This being done without resistance the Kings Right to Ship-money B. Ship-money what 's that A. The Kings of England for the defence of the Sea had power to Tax all the Counties of England whether they were Maritine or not for the Building and Furnishing of Ships which Tax the King had then lately found cause to impose and the Parliament exclaimed against it as an oppression And one of their Members that had been Taxed but 20 Shillings mark the Oppression a Parliament-man of 500 l. a Year Land Taxed at 20 Shillings they were forced to bring it to a Tryal at Law he refusing payment and he was cast again When all the Judges of Westminster were demanded their Opinions concerning the legality of it of Twelve that there are it was judged Legal by Ten for which though they were not punished yet they were affrighted by the Parliament B. What did the Parliament mean when they did exclaim against it as illegal Did they mean it was against Statute Law or against the Judgments of Lawyers given heretofore which are commonly called Reports or did they mean it was against Equity which I take to be the same with the Law of Nature A. It is a hard matter or rather impossible to know what other men mean especially if they be crafty but sure I am Equity was not their ground for their pretence of Immunity from Contributing to the King but at their own pleasure for when they have laid the Burthen of defending the whole Kingdom and governing it upon any person whatsoever there is little Equity he should depend on others for the means of performing it or if he do they are his Soveraign not he theirs and as for
believe oppose the Lower House B. But why were the Lower House so earnest against them A. Because they meant to make use of their Tenants and with pretended Sanctity to make the King and his Party odious to the People by whose help they were to set up Democracy and Depose the King or to let him have the Title only so long as he should Act for their purposes But not only the Parliament but in a manner all the People of England were their Enemies upon the account of their behaviour as being they said too imperious This was all that was colourable laid to their charge the main of the pulling them down was the Envy of the Presbyterians that incensed the People against them and against Episcopacy it self B. How would the Presbyterians have the Church to be govern'd A. By National and Provincial Synods B. Is not this to make the National Assembly an Arch-Bishop and the Provincial Assemblies so many Bishops A. Yes but every Minister shall have the delight of sharing the Government and consequently of being able to be reveng'd on them that do not admire their Learning and help to fill their purses and win to their service them that do B. 'T is a hard Case that there should be two Factions to trouble the Common-wealth without any Interest of their own other than every particular man may have and that their quarrels should be only about Opinions that is about who has the most Learning as if their Learning ought to be the Rule of Governing the whole World What is it they are Learned in is it Politicks and Rules of State I know it is called Divinity but I hear almost nothing preacht but matter of Philosophy for Religion in it self admits of no Controversie 'T is a Law of the Kingdom and ought not to be disputed I do not think they pretend to speak with God and know his will by any other way than reading the Scriptures which we also do A. Yes some of them do and give themselves out for Prophets by extraordinary Inspiration but the rest pretend only for their Advancement to Benefices and Charge of Souls a greater skill in the Scriptures than other men have by reason of their breeding in the Universities and knowledge there gotten of the Latin Tongue and some also of the Greek and Hebrew Tongues wherein the Scriptures were written besides their knowledge of Natural Philosophy which is there publickly taught B. As for the Latin Greek and Hebrew it was once to the Detection of the Roman Fraud and to the Ejection of the Romish Power very profitable or rather necessary But now that is done and we have the Scripture in English and Preaching in English I see no great need of Latin Greek and Hebrew I should think my self better qualified by under standing well the Languages of our Neighbours French Dutch and Italian I think it was never seen in the world before the Power of Popes was setup that Philosophy was much conducing to power in a Commonwealth A. But Philosophy together with Divinity hath very much conduced to the Advancement of the Professors thereof to places of the greatest Authority next to the Authority of Kings themselves in most of the Antient Kingdoms of the world as is manifestly to be seen in the History of those times B. I pray you cite me some of the Authors and places A. First what were the Druids of old time in Britany and France what Authority these had you may see in Caesar Strabo and others and especially in Diodorus Siculus the greatest Antiquary perhaps that ever was who speaking of the Druids which he calls Sarovides in France saith thus There be also amongst them certain Philosophers and Theologians that are exceedingly honoured whom they also use as Prophets These men by their skill in Augury and Inspection into the Bowels of Beasts sacrificed foretel what is to come and have the multitude in obedience to them and a little after It is a custom amongst them that no man may sacrifice without a Philosopher because say they men ought not to present their Thanks to the Gods but by them that know the Divine Nature and are as it were of the same language with them and that all good things ought by such as these to be prayed for B. I can hardly believe that those Druids were very skilful either in Natural Philosophy or Moral A. Nor I for they held and taught the Transmigration of Souls from one Body to another as did Pythagoras which Opinion whether they took from him or he from them I cannot tell What were the Magi in Persia but Philosophers and Astrologers You know how they came to find our Saviour by the Conduct of a Star either from Persia it self or from some Country more Eastward than Judea were not these in great Authority in their Country And are they not in most part of Christendom thought to have been Kings Aegypt hath been thought by many the most Antient Kingdom and Nation of the world and their Priests had the greatest power in Civil Affairs that any Subject ever had in any Nation And what were they but Philosophers and Divines Concerning whom the same Diodorus Siculus saies thus The whole Country of Egypt being divided into three parts the Body of the Priests have One as being of most credit with the people both for their Devotions towards the Gods and also for their Understanding gotten by Education and presently after for generally those men in the greatest Affairs of all the King's Councellors partly Executing and partly Informirg and Advising foretelling him also by their skill in Astrology and Art in the Inspection of Sacrifices the things that are to come and reading to him out of their Holy Books such of the Actions there recorded as are profitable for him to know 'T is not there as in Greece one man or one woman that has thé Priesthood but they are many that attend the Honours and Sacrifices of the Gods and leave the same Imployment to their posterity which next to the King have the greatest Power and Authority Concerning the Judicature amongst the Aegyptians he saith thus From out of the most eminent Cities Hieropolis Thebes and Memphis they chuse Judges which are Council not inferiour to that of Areopagus in Athens or that of the Senate in Lacedoemon when they are met being in number thirty they chuse one from among themselves to be Chief Justice and the City whereof he is sendeth another in his place This Chief Justice wore about his neck hung in a gold Chain a Jewel of precious Stones the name of which Jewel was Truth which when the Chief Justice had put on then began the Pleading c. And when the Judges had agreed on the Sentence then did the Chief Justice put this Jewel of Truth on one of the Pleas. You see now what power was acquired in Civil matters by the conjuncture of Philosophy and Divinity Let us come now to the
which they omitted nothing of their former Slanders against His Majesties Government but inserted certain Propositions declarative of their own pretended Right viz. I. That whatsoever they declare to be Law ought not to be questioned by the King II. That no Precedent can be Limits to bound their Proceedings III. That a Parliament for the Public Good may dispose of any thing wherein the King or Subject hath a Right and that they without the King are this Parliament and the Judge of this Public Good and that the King's consent is not necessary IV. That no Member of either House ought to be troubled for Treason Felony or any other Crime unless the Cause he first brought before the Paliament that they may judge of the Fact and give leave to proceed if they see Cause V. That the Sovereign Power resides in both Houses and that the King ought to have no Negative Voice VI. That the Levying of Forces against the Personal Commands of the King though accompanied with his presence is not Levying War against the King but the Levying of War against his Politic Person viz. his Laws c. VII That Treason cannot be committed against his Person otherwise than as he is intrusted with the Kingdom and discharges that Trust and that they have a Power to judge whether he hath discharged his Trust or not VIII That they may dispose of the King when they will B. This is plain-dealing and without hypocrisie Could the City of London swallow this A. Yes and more too if need be London you know has a great Belly but no palate nor taste of Right and Wrong In the Parliament Roll of Henry IV. amongst the Articles of the Oath the King at his Coronation took there is one runs thus Concedes Justas Leges Consuetudines esse tenendas promiâ—tes per te eas esse protegendas ad honorem Dei corroborandas quas Vulgus elegerit Which the Parliament urged for their Legislative Authority and therefore interpret quas Vulgus elegerit which the People shall choose as if the King should swear to protect and corroborate Laws before they were made whether they be Good or Bad whereas the words signifie no more but that he shall protect and corroborate such Laws as they have chosen that is to say the Acts of Parliament then in being And in the Records of the Exchequer it is thus Will yea grant to hold and keep the Laws and rightful Customs which the Commonalty of this your Kingdom have And will you defend and uphold them c And this was the Answer His Majesty made to that Point B. I think His Answer very full and clear but if the words were to be interpreted in the other sence yet I see no reason why the King should be bound to swear to them for Henry IV. came to the Crown by the Votes of a Parliament not much inferior in wickedness to this Long Parliament that Deposed and Murdered their Lawful King saving that it was not the Parliament it self but the Usurper that murdered King Richard II. A. About a week after in the beginning of May the Parliament sent the King another Paper which they stil'd The Humble Petition and Advice of both Houses Containing Nineteen Propositions which when you shall hear you shall be able to judge what Power they meant to leave to the King more than to any of His Subjects The first of them is this I. That the Lords and other of His Majesties Privy Council and all great Officers of State both at home and abroad be put from their Imployments and from his Council save only such as should be approved of by both Houses of Parliament and none put into their places but by approbation of the said Houses And that all Privy Counsellors take an Oath for the due Execution of their places in such form as shall be agreed upon by the said Houses II. That the great Affairs of the Kingdom be Debated Resolv'd and Transacted only in Parliament and such as shall presume to do any thing to the contrary to be reserved to the Censure of the Parliament and such other Matters of State as are proper for His Majesties Privy Council shall be Debated and Concluded by such as shall from time to time be chosen for that place by both Houses of Parliament And that no Publick Act concerning the Affairs of the Kingdom which are proper for his Privy Council be esteemed valid as proceeding from the Royal Authority unless it be done by the Advice and Consent of the Major part of the Council attested under their Hands and that the Council be not more than 25 nor less than 15 and that when a Counsellors place falls it shall not be supplied without the assent of the Major part of the Council and that such choice also shall be void if the next Parliament after confirm it not III. That the Lord High Steward of England Lord High Constable Lord Chancellor or Lord Keeper of the Great Seal Lord Treasurer Lord Privy Seal Earl Marshal Lord Admiral Warden of the Cinque Ports chief Governor of Ireland Chancellor of the Exchequer Master of the Wards Secretaries of State Two Chief Justices and Chief Baron be always chosen with the Approbation of both Houses of Parliament and in the Intervals of Parliament by the Major part of the Privy Council IV. That the Government of the King's Children shall he committed to such as both Houses shall approve of and in the Intervals of Parliament such as the Privy Council shall approve of that the Servants then about them against whom the Houses have just exception should be remov'd V. That no Marriage be concluded or treated of for any of the King's Children without consent of Parliament VI. That the Laws in force against the Jesuits Priests and Popish Recusants be strictly put in execution VII That the Votes of Popish Lords in the House of Peers be taken away and that a Bill be passed for the Education of the Children of Papists in the Protestant Religion VIII That the King will be pleas'd to reform the Church-Government and Liturgy in such manner as both Houses of Parliament shall advise IX That he would be pleased to rest satisfied with that course the Lords and Commons have appointed for ordering the Militia and recall his Declarations and Proclamations against it X. That such Members as have been put out of any Place or Office since this Parliament began may be restor'd or have satisfaction XI That all Privy Counsellors and Judges take an Oath the Form whereof shall be agreed on and setled by Act of Parliament for the maintaining the Petition of Right and of certain Statutes made by the Parliament XII That all the Judges and Officers placed by Approbation of both Houses of Parliament may hold their places quamdiu benè se gesserint XIII That the Justice of Parliament may pass upon all Delinquents whether they be within the Kingdom or fled out of it
for an University of Learning there was none erected till that time though it be not unlikely there might be then some that taught Philosophy Logick and other Arts in divers Monasteries the Monks having little else to do but to study After some Colledges were built to that purpose it was not long before many more were added to them by the Devotion of Princes and Bishops and other wealthy men and the Discipline therein was confirmed by the Popes that then were and abundance of Scholars sent thither by their friends to study as to a place from whence the way was open and easie to preferment both in Church and Commonwealth The profit the Church of Rome expected from them and in effect received was the maintenance of the Pope's Doctrine and of his Authority over Kings and their Subjects by School Divines who striving to make good many points of Faith incomprehensible and calling in the Philosophy of Aristotle to their assistance wrote great Books of School Divinity which no man else nor they themselves were able to understand as any man may conceive that shall consider the writing of Peter Lombard or Scotus or of him that wrote Commentaries upon him or of Suarez or of any other School-Divines of later times which kind of Learning nevertheless hath been much admired by two sorts of men otherwise prudent enough The one of which sorts were those that were already Devoted and really affectionate to the Roman Church for they believed the Doctrine before but admired the Arguments because they understood them not and yet found the Conclusions to their mind The other sort were negligent men that had rather admire with others than take the pains to examine so that all sorts of people were fully resolved that both the Doctrine was true and the Pope's Authority no more then that was due to him I see that a Christian King or State how well soever provided he be of Money and Arms where the Church of Rome hath such authority will have but a hard match of it for want of men for their Subjects will hardly be drawn into the Field and fight with courage against their Consciences A. It is true that great rebellions have been raised by Church-men in the Pope's quarrel against Kings as in England against King John and in France against King Henry the Fourth wherein the Kings had a more considerable part on their sides than the Pope had on his and shall always have so if they have Money for there are but few whose Consciences are so tender as to refuse Money when they want it but the great mischief done to Kings upon pretence of Religion is when the Pope gives power to one King to Invade another B. I wonder how King Henry the Eighth so utterly extinguished the Authority of the Pope in England and that without any Rebellion at home or any Invasion from abroad A. First The Priests Monks and Friars being in the height of their Power were now for the most part grown insolent and licentious and thereby the force of their Arguments was now taken away by the scandal of their lives which the Gentry and men of good education easily perceived and the Parliament consisting of such persons were therefore willing to take away their Power and generally the Common people which for a long time had been in love with Parliaments were not displeased therewith Secondly The Doctrine of Luther beginning a little before was now by a great many men of the greatest Judgments so well received as that there was no hope to restore the Pope to his Power by Rebellion Thirdly The Revenue of the Abbies and all other Religious Houses falling hereby into the Kings hands and by him being disposed of to the most eminent Gentlemen in every County could not but make them do their best to confirm themselves in the possession of them Fourthly King Henry was of a nature quick and severe in the Punishing of such as should be the first to oppose his designs Lastly As to Invasion from abroad if the Pope had given the Kingdom to another Prince it had been in vain for England is another manner of Kingdom than Navarre besides the French and Spanish Forces were imployed at that time one against another and though they had been at leasure they would have found perhaps no better success than the Spaniard found afterwards in 1588. Nevertheless notwithstanding the Insolence Avarice and Hypocrisie of the then Clergy and nothwithstanding the Doctrine of Luther if the Pope had not provoked the King by endeavouring to cross his Marriage with his second Wife his Authority might have remained in England till there had risen some other quarrel B. Did not the Bishops that then were and had taken an Oath wherein was among other things that they should defend and maintain the Regal Rights of St. Peter the words are Regalia Sancti Petri which nevertheless some have said are Regulas Sancti Petri that is to say St. Peter's Rules or Doctrine and that the Clergy afterwards did read it being perhaps written in Short-hand by a mistake to the Pope's advantage Regalia Did not I say the Bishops oppose that Act of Parliament against the Pope's against the taking of the Oath of Supremacy A. No I do not find the Bishops did many of them oppose the King for having no power without him it had been great imprudence to provoke his Anger there was besides a Controversiy in those times between the Pope and the Bishops most of which did maintain that they exercised their Jurisdiction Episcopal in the Right of God as immediately as the Pope himself did exercise the same over the whole Church and because they saw that by this Act of the King in Parliament they were to hold their power no more of the Pope and never thought of holding it of the King they were perhaps better content to let the Act of Parliament pass in the reign of King Edward the Sixth the Doctrine of Luther had taken such great root in England that they threw out a great many of the Pope's new Articles of Faith with Queen Mary succeeding him restored again together with all that had been abolished by King Henry the Eighth saving that which could not be restored the Religious Houses and the Bishops and Clergy of King Henry were partly burnt for Hereticks partly fled and partly recanted and they that fled betook themselves to those places beyond Sea where the Reformed Religion was either protected or not prosecuted who after the decease of Queen Mary returned again to favour and preferment under Queen Elizabeth that restored the Religion of her Brother King Edward and so it had continued to this day excepting the interruption made in this late Rebellion of the Presbyterians and other Democratical men But thus the Romish Religion were now cast out by the Law yet there were abundance of people and many of them of the Nobility that still retained the Religion of their Ancestors
as are subject to the Law or its being unconformable to Equity or Charity in all men whatsoever B. It seems you make a difference between the Ethicks of Subjects and the Ethicks of Soveraigns A. So I do The Vertue of a Subject is comprehended wholly in obedience to the Laws of the Commonwealth To obey the Laws is Justice and Equity which is the Law of Nature and consequently is Civil Law in all Nations of the World and nothing is Injustice or Iniquity otherwise then it is against the Law Likewise to obey the Law is the Prudence of a Subject for without such obedience the Commonwealth which is every Subjects safety and protection cannot subsist And though it be Prudence also in private men justly and moderately to enrich themselves yet craftily to withold from the Publick or defraud it of such part of the Wealth as is by Law required is no sign of Prudence but of want of knowledge of what is necessary for their own defence The Vertues of Soveraigns are such as tend to the maintenance of Peace at Home and to the resistance of Forreign Enemies Fortitude is a Royal Vertue and though it be necessary in such private men as shall be Soldiers yet for other men the less they dare the better it is both for the Commonwealth and for themselves Frugality though perhaps you would think it strange is also a Royal Vertue for it increases the publick stock which cannot be too great for the Publick Use nor any man too sparing of what he has in trust for the good of others Liberality also is a Royal Vertue for the Commonwealth cannot be well serv'd without Extraordinary Diligence and Service of Ministers and great Fidelity to their Soveraign who ought therefore to be incouraged and especially those that do him service in the Wars In summ all Actions or Habits are to be esteemed Good or Evil by their Causes and Usefulness in reference to the Commonwealth and not by their Mediocrity nor by their being commended for several men praise several Customes and that which is Vertue with one is blam'd by others and contrarily what one calls Vice an other calls Vertue as their present Affections lead them B. Methinks you should have placed amongst the Vertues that which in my Opinion is the greatest of all Vertues Religion A. So I have though it seems you did not observe it But whether do we Disgress from the way we were in B. I think you have not Digressed at all for I suppose your purpose was to acquaint me with the History not so much of those Actions that past in the time of the late Troubles as of their Causes and of the Counsels and Artifiâ—es by which they were brought to pass There be divers men that have written the History out of whom I might have Learned what they did and somewhat also of the Contrivance But I find little in them of it I would ask therefore since you were pleased to enter into this Discourse at my request be pleased also to inform me after my own method And for the danger of Confusion that may arise from that I will take care to bring you back to the place from whence I drew you for I well remember where it was A. Well then to your Question concerning Religion Inasmuch as I told you that Vertue is comprehended in Obedience to the Laws of the Commonweath whereof Religion is one I have placed Religion amongst the Vertues B. Is Religion then the Law of a Commonwealth A. There is no Nation in the World whose Religion is not Established and receives not its Authority from the Laws of that Nation It is true that the Law of God receives no obedience from the Laws of Men But because men can never by their own Wisdom come to the knowledge of what God hath spoken and Commanded to be Observed nor be obliged to obey the Laws whose Author they know not they are to acquiâ—ss in some humane Authority or other So that the Question will be Whether a man ought in matter of Religion that is to say when there is question of his Dâ—ty to God and the King to rely upon the Praeaching of their Fellow-Subjects or of 2 Stranger or upon the voice of the Law B. There is no great difficulty in that point for there is none that Preach here or any where else at least ought to Preach but such as have Authority so to do from him or them that have the Soveraign Power So that if the King give us leave you or I may as lawfully Preach as them that do and I believe we should perform that Office a great deal better than they that preached us into Rebellion A. The Church Morals are in many points very different from these that I have here set down for the Doctrine of Vertue and Vice and yet without any conformity with that of Aristotle for in the Church of Rome the principle Vertues are to obey their Doctrine though it be Treason and that is to be Religious to be beneficial to the Clergy that is their Piety and Liberality and to believe upon their word that which a man knows in his Conscience to the false which is the Faith that they require I could name a great many more such points of their Morals but that I know you know them already being so well versed in the cases of Conscience written by their School-men who measure the goodness and wickedness of all Actions by their Congruity with the Doctrine of the Roman Clergy B. But what is the Moral Philosophy of the Protestant Clergy in England A. So much as they shew of it in their Life and Conversation is for the most part very good and of very good example much better than their Writings B. It happens many times that men live honestly for fear who if they had Power would live according to their own Opinions that is if their Opinions be nor right Unrighteously A. Do the Clergy in England pretend as the Pope does or â—s the Presbyterians do to have a right from God immediately to govern the King and his Subjects in all points of Religion and Manners If they do you cannot doubt but that if they had Number and Strength which they are never like to have they would attempt to attain that Power as the others have done B. I would be glad to see a System of the present Morals written by some Divine of good Reputation and Learning and of the late King's party A. I think I can recommend unto you the best that is extant and such an one as except a few passages that I mislike is very well worth your reading the Title of it is The whole Duty of Man laid down in a plain and familiar way And yet I dare say that if the Presbyterian Ministers even those of them that were the most diligent Preachers of the late Sedit on were to be tried by it they would go near to be found
so in other cases the Scripture says one Scripture says one thing and they think another weâ—ghing the commodities or incommodities of this present life onely which are in their sight never putting into the scales the good and evil of the Life to come which they see not A. All his is no more than happens where the Scripture is sealed up in Greek and Latine and the People taught the same things out of them by Preachers but they that are of a Condition and Age fit to examine the sense of what they read and that take a delight in searching out the grounds of their duty certainly cannot chuse but by reading of the Scriptures come to such a sense of their Duty as not only to obey the Laws themselves but also to induce others to do the same for commonly Men of Age and quality are followed by their inseriour Neighbours that look more upon the example of those Men whom they Reverence and whom they are unwilling to displease then upon Precepts and Laws A. These men of the Condition and Age you speak of are in my opinion the unfittest of all others to be trusted with the reading of the Scriptures I know you mean such as have studied the Greek or Latin or both Tongues and that are withal such as love knowledge and consequently take delight in finding out the meaning of the most hard Texts or in thinking they have found it in case it be new and not found out by others these are therefore they that pretermitting the easie places that teach them their duty fall to scanning only the Mysteries of Religion Such as are how it may be made out with wit that there be three that bear Rule in Heaven and those three but one how the Deity could be made flesh how that flesh could be really present in many places at once where 's the place and what the Torments of Hell and other Metaphysical Doctrines whether the Will of Man be free or govern'd by the will of God whether Sanctity comes by Inspiration or Education by whom Christ now speaks to us whether by the King or by the Bible to every man that reads it and interprets it to himself or by a private Spirit to every private Man These and the like poâ—nts are the study of the curious and the cause of all our late mischief and the cause that makes the plainer sort of men whom the Scriptures had taught belief in Christ love towards God obedience towards the King and sobriety of Behaviour forget it all and place their Religion in the Disputable Doctrines of your wise men A. I do not think these men fit to interpret the Scriptures to the rest nor do I say that the rest ought to take their interpretation for the word of God Whatsoever is necessary for them to know more does them no good but in case any of these unnecessary Doctrines shall be Authorized by the Laws of the King or other state I say it is the duty of every Subject not to speak against them in asmuch as 't is every Mans duty to obey him or them that have the Soveraign power and the wisdom of all such powers to punish such as shall publish or teach their private Interpretations when they are contrary to the Law and likely to incline men to sedition or disputing against the Law B. They must punish then the most of those that have had there breeding in the Universities for such curious questions in Divinity are first started in the Universities and so are all those politick questions concerning the rights of Civil and Ecclesiastical Government and there they are furnished with Arguments for Liberty out of the works of Aristotle Plato Cicero Seneca and out of the Histories of Rome and Greece for their disputation against the necessary power of their Soveraigns therefore I dispare of any lasting peace among our selves till the Universities here shall bend and direct their studies to the setling of it That is to the Teaching of Absolute obedience to the Laws of the King and to his publick Edicts under the great Seal of England For I make no doubt but that solid reason backt with the Authority of so many Learned men will more prevail for the keeping of us in peace within our selves than any victory over the Rebells but I am afraid 't is unpossible to bring the Universities to such a compliance with the Actions of State as is necessary for the business seeing the Universities have heretofore from time to time maintain'd the Authority of the Pope contrary to all Laws Divine Civil and Natural against Right of our Kings why can they not as well when they have all manner of Laws and Equity on their side maintain the Rights of him that is both Soveraign of the Kingdom and Head of the Church B. Why then were they not in all points for the Kings power presently after that King Henry 8. was in Parliament declared Head of the Church as much as they were before for the Authory of the Pope A. Because the Clergy in the Universities by whom all things there are govern'd and the Clergy wâ—thout the Universities as well Bishops as Inseriour Clerks did think that the pulling down of the Pope was the setting up of them as to England in his place and made no question the greateâ—t part of them but that their spiritual power did depend not upon the Authority of the King but of Christ himself derived to them by successible Imposition of hands from Bishop to Bishop notwithstanding they knew that â—iâ—is derivation passed through the hands of Popes and Bishops whose Authority they had cast off for though they were content that the Divine right which the Pope pretended to in England should be denied him yet they thought it rot so fit to be taken from the Church of England whom they now supposed themselves to represent It seems they did not think it reasonable that a Woman or a Child or a Man that could not construe the Hebrew Greek or Latin Bible nor know perhaps the Declensions and Conjugations of Greek or Latin Nounes and Verbs should take upon him to govern so many Learned Doctors in matters of Religion meaning matters of Divinity for Religion has been for a long time and is now by most people taken for the same thing with Divinity to the great advantage of the Clergy A. And especially now amongst the Presbyterians for I see few that are esteemed by them very good Christians besides such as can repeat their Sermons and wrangle so them about Interpretat on of the Scripture and fight for them also with their Bodies or Purses when they shall be required to believe in Christ is nothing with them unless you believe as they bid you Charity is nothing with them unless it be Charity and Liberality to them and partaking with them in Faction How we can have peace while this is our Religion I cannot tell Haeret Laterilethalis arundo The
seditious Doctrine of the Presbyterians hath been stuck so hard in the Peoples heads and memories I cannot say into their hearts for they understood nothing in it but that they may lawfully rebel That I fear the Common-wealth will never be cured A. The two great Vertues that were severally in Henry the 7. Henry the 8. When they shall be Joyntly in one King will easily cure it that of Henry the 7. was without much noise of the people to fill his Coffers that of Henry the 8. was an early severity but this without the former cannot be exercised B. This that you say looks methinks like an advice to the King to let them alone till he have gotten ready money enough to levy and maintain a sufficient Army and then to fall on them and destroy them A. God forbid that so horrible Unchristian and unhumain design should ever enter into the Kings heart I would have him have money enough readily to raise an Army able to suppress any Rebellion and to take from the Enemies all hope of success that they may nâ—t dare to trouble him in the Reformation of the Universities but to put none to death without the Actual committing such Crimes as are already made Capital by the Laws the Core of Rebellion as you have seen by this and read of other Rebellions are the Universities which nevertheless are not to be cast away but to be better disciplin'd that is to say that the Politicks there taught be made to be as true Politicks should be such as are fit to make men know that it is their duty to obey all Laws whatsoever that shall be by the Authority of the King enacted till by the same Authority they shall be repeal'd such as are fit to make men understand that the Civil Laws are Gods Laws as they that make them and to make men know that the people and the Church are one thing and have but one Head the King and that no man has Title to govern under him that has it not from him that the King owes his Crown to Cod only and to no man Ecclesiastick or other and that the Religion they teach there be a quiet waiting for the coming again of blessed Saviour and in the mean time a Resolution to obey the Kings Laws which are also Gods Laws to injure no man to be in Charity with all men to cherish the Poor and Sick and to live Soberly and free from Scandal without mingling our Religion with points of Natural Phylosophy as freedom of Will Incorporeal substance Everlasting News Ubiquities Hypostases Which the people understand not nor will ever care for when the Universities shall be thus disciplined there will come out of them from time to time well Principled Preachers and they that are ill principled from time to time fall away B. I think it a very good course and perhaps the only one that can make our peace amongst our selves constant for if men know not their Duty what is there that can force them to obey they Laws An Army you 'l say but what shall force the Army were not the Train'd Bands an Army Were they not the Janisaries that not long ago slew Osman in his own Palace at Constantinople I am therefore of your opinion both that men may be brought to a love of Obedience by Preachers and Gentlemen that imbibe good Principles in their Youth at the Universities and also that we never shall have a lasting peace till the Universites themselves be in such manney as you have said reformed and the Ministers know they have no Authority but what the supream Civil Power gives them â—nd â—â—e Nobility and Gentry know that the Liberty of a State is not an Exemption from the Laws of their own Countrey whether made by an Assembly or by a Monarchy but an Exemption from the constraint and Insolence of their Neighbours And now I am satisfied in this point I will bring you back to the place from whence my Curiosity drew you to this long digression We were upon the point of Ship-money one of those grievances which the Parliament exclaimed against as Tyranny and Arbitrary Government thereby to single out as you called it the King from his Subjects and to make a party against him when they should need it And now you may proceed if it please you to such other Artifices as they used to the same purpose A. I think it were better to give over here our discourse of his business and refer it to some other day that you shall think fit B. Content that day I believe is not far off A. You are welcome yet if you had stayed somewhat longer My Money would have been so much the better provided for you B Nay I pray you give me now what you have about you for the rest I am content to take what time you please A. After the Parliament had made the people believe that the Extorting of Ship-money was unlawful and the people thereby inclined to think it Tyrannical in the next place to increase their disaffection to his Majesty They accused him of a purpose to Introduce and Authorize the Roman Religion in this Kingdom Than which nothing was more hateful to the people not because it was Erroneous which they had neither Learning nor Judgment enough to examine but because they had been used to heat it inveyed against in the Sermons and Discourses of the Preachers whom they trusted to and this was indeed the most effectual calumny to alienate the peoples affections from him that could possibly be invented the colour they had for this stand was First that there was one Rosseti Resident at and a little before the time from the Pope with the Queen And one Mr. George Con-secratary to the Cardinal Francisco Barbâ—rini Nephew to Pope Urban the Eighth sent over under favour and protection of the Queen as was conceived to draw as many persons of quality about the Court as he should be able to reconcile themselves to the Church of Rome with what success I cannot tell but it is likely he gained some especially of the weaker Sex If I may say they were gained by him when not his Arguments but hope of favour from the Queen in all probability prevailed upon them B. In such a Conjuncture as that was it had perhaps been better they had not been sent A. There wâ—s exception also taken at a Covent of Friers Capucines in Sommerset-house though allowed by the Articles of Marriage and it was reported that the Jescites also were shortly after to be allowed a Covent in Clerkenwel and in the mean time the principal Secretary Sir Francis Windebank was accused for having by his Warrant set at liberty some English Jesuites that had been taken and Imprisoned for returning into England after Banishment contrary to the Statute which had made it Capital also the great resort of English Catholicks to the Queens Chappel gave them Colour to blame the Queen her self not only for
prospered When these three came through London it was a kind of Triumph the People flocking together to behold them and receiving them with such Acclamations and almost Adoration as if they had been let down from Heaven Insomuch that the Parliament was now sufficiently assured of a great and tumultuous Party whensoever they should have occasion to use it on confidence whereof they proceeded to their next Plot which was to deprive the King of such Ministers as by their Courage Wisdom and Authority they thought most able to prevent or oppose their further Designs against the King And first the House of Commons resolv'd to impeach the Earl of Strafford Lord Lieutenant of Ireland of High-Treason B. What was that Earl of Strafford before he had that Place And how had he offended the Parliament or given them cause to think he would be their Enemy For I have heard that in former Parliaments he had been as Parliamentary as any other A. His Name was Sir Thomas Wentworth a Gentleman both for Birth and Estate very considerable in his own Country which was Yorkshire but more considerable for his Judgement in the Publick Affairs not only of that Country but generally of the Kingdom either as Burgess for some Borrough or Knight of the Shire For his Principles of Politicks they were the same that were generally proceeded upon by all Men else that are thought sit to be chosen for the Parliament which are commonly these To take for the Rule of Justice and the Government the Judgements and Acts of former Parliaments which are commonly called Precedents to endeavour to keep the People from being subject to Extra-Parliamentary Taxes of money and from being with Parliamentary Taxes too much oppressed to preserve to the People their Liberty of Body from their Arbitrary Power of the King out of Paâ—liament to seek Redress of Grievances B. What Grievances A. The Grievances were commonly such as these The King 's too much Liberality to some Favourite the too much Power of any Minister of State of Officer the Mâ—sdemeanours of Judges Civil or Spiritual but especially all Unparliamentary raising of Money upon the Subjects And commonly of late till such Grievances be redressed they refuse or at least make great difficulty to furnish the King with Money necessary for the most urgent occasions of the Commonwealth B. How then can a King discharge his Duty as he ought to do or the Subject know which of his Masters he is to obey For here are manifestly two Powers which when they chance to differ cannot both be obeyed A. 'T is true but they have not often differed so much to the danger of the Commonwealth as they have done in this Parliament of 1640. In all the Parliaments of the late King Charles before the year 1640. my Lord of Strafford did appear in opposition to the King's Demands as much as any man and was for that Cause very much esteemed and cryed up by the People as a good Patriot and one that couragiously stood up in defence of their Liberties and for the same cause was so much the more hated when afterwards he endeavoured to maintain the Royal and Just Authority of his Majesty B. How came he to change his mind so much as it seems he did A. After the Dissolution of that Parliament holden in the year 1627 and 1628 the King finding no Money to be gotten from Parliaments which he was not to buy with the Bloud of such Servants and Ministers as he loved best abstained a long time from calling any more and had abstained longer if the Rebellion of the Scotch had not forced him to it During that Parliament the King made Sir Thomas Wentworth a Baron recommended to him for his great ability which was generally taken notice of by the disservice he had done the King in former Parliaments but which might be useful also for him in the times that came on and not long after that he made him of the Council and again Lieutenant of Ireland which place he discharged with great satisfaction and benefit to his Majesty and continued in that Office till by the Envy and Violence of the Lords and Commons of that unlucky Parliament of 1640. he died in which year he was made General of the King's Forces against the Scotch that then entred into England and the year before Earl of Strafford The Pacification being made and the Forces on both sides Disbanded and the Parliament at Westminster now Sitting it was not long before the House of Commons accused him to the House of Lords of High-Treason B. There was no great probability of his being a Traitor to the King from whose favour he had received his greatness and from whose protection he was to expect his safety What was the Treason they laid to his Charge A. Many Articles were drawn up against him but the sum of them was contained in these two First That he had traiterously endeavour'd to subvert the Fundamental Laws and Government of the Realm and instead thereof to introduce an Arbitrary and Tyrannical Government against Law Secondly That he had laboured to subvert the Rights of Parliaments and the ancient course of Parliamentary Proceedings B. Was this done by him without the knowledge of the King A. No. B. Why then if it were Treason did not the King himself call him in question by his Attorney What had the House of Commons to do without his Command to accuse him to the House of Lords They might have complain'd to the King if he had not known it before I understand not this Law A. Nor I. B. Had this been by any former Statutes made Treason A. Not that I ever heard of nor do I understand that any thing can be Treason against the King that the King hearing and knowing does not think Treason But it was a piece of that Parliaments Artifice to put the word Traiterously to any Article exhibited against a Man whose life they meant to take away B. Was there no particular Instance of action or words out of which they argued that endeavour of his to subvert the fundamental Laws of Parliament whereof they accused him A. Yes they said he gave the King counsel to reduce the Parliament to their duty by the Irish Army which not long before my Lord of Strafford himself had caused to be levied there for the King's service but it was never proved against him that he advised the King to make use of it against the Parliament B. What are those Laws that are called fundamental for I understand not how one Law can be more fundamental than another except only that Law of Nature that binds us all to obey him whosoever he be whom lawfully and for our own safety we have promised to obey nor any other fundamental Law to a King but Salus Populi The safety and well being of the people A. This Parliament in the use of these words when they accused any Man never regarded the signification of
Common-wealth of the Jews was not the Priesthood in a Family namely the Levites as well as the Priesthood of Aegypt Did not the High-Priest give Judgment by the Brest-plate of Vrim and Thummim Look upon the Kingdom of Assyria and the Philosophers and Chaldeans had not they Lands and Cities belonging to their Family even in Abrabam's time who dwelt you know in Vr of the Chaldeans Of these the same Author says thus The Chaldeans are a Sect in Politicks like to that of the Aegyptian Priests for being ordained for the service of the Gods they spend the whole time of their life in Philosophy being of exceeding great reputation in Astrology and pretending much also to Prophecy foretelling things to come by Purifications and Sacrifices and to find out by certain Incantations the preventing of harm and the bringing to pass of good They have also skill in Augury and in the Interpretation of Dreams and Wonders nor are they unskilful in the Art of Foretelling by the Inwards of Beasts sacrificed and have their Learning not of the Greeks for the Philosophy of the Chaldeans goes to their family by Tradition and the Son receives it from his Father From Assyria let us pass into India and see what esteem the Philosophers had there The whole multitude says Diodorus of the Indians is divided into seven parts whereof the first is the Body of the Philosophers for number the least but for eminency the first for they are free from Taxes and as the are not Masters of others so are no others Masters of them By private men they are called to the Sacrifices and to the care of the Burials of the Dead as being thought most beloved of the Gods and skilful in the Doctrine concerning-Hell and for this Imployment receive Gifts and Honours very considerable They are also of great use to the people of India for being taken at the beginning of the year in the great Assembly they foretell them of great Drouths great Rains also of Winds and of Sicknesses and of whatsoever i profitable for them to know beforehand The same Author concerning the Laws of the Aethiopians saith thus The Laws of the Aethiopians seem very different from those of other Nations and especially about the Election of their Kings for the Priests propound some of the chief men among them named in a Catalogue and when the God which according to a certain Custom is carried about to Feastings does accept of him the Multitude Elect for their King and presently adore and honour him as a God put into the Government by Divine Providence The King being chosen he has the manner of his life limited to him by the Laws and does all other things according to the custom of the Country neither rewarding nor punishing any man otherwise than from the beginning is Establish'd amongst them by Law nor use they to put any man to death though he be condemn'd to it but to send some Officer to him with a Token of Death who seeing the Token goes presently to his own house and kills himself presently after Bat the strangest thing of all is that which they do concerning the Death of their Kings For the Priests that live in Meroe and spend their time about the worship and honour of the Gods and are in greatest Authority when they have a mind to it send a Messenger to the King to bid him dye for that the Gods have given such order and that the Commandments of the Immortals are not by any means to be neglected by those that are by nature Mortal using also other speeches to him which men of simple Judgment that have not reason enough to dispare against those unnecessary commands as being educated under an old and undelible â—â—lom are 〈◊〉 to admit of therefore in former times the Kings did obey the Priests not as mastered by force and Arms but as having their reason mastered by superstition But in the time of Ptolomy the second Ergamenes King of the Aethiopians having had his breeding in Philosophy after the manner of the Greeks being the first that durst dispute their power took heart as befitted a King came with Soldiers to a place called Abaton where was then the Golden Temple of the Aethiopians killed all the Priests abolished the Custom and rectified the Kingdom according to his will B. Though they that were kill'd were most damnable Impostors yet the Act was cruel A. It was so but were not the Priests cruel to cause their Kings whom a little before they adored as Gods to make away themselves The King kill'd them for the safety of his person they him out of Ambition or love of Change The King's Act may be coloured with the good of his People the Priests had no pretence against their Kings who were certainly very godly or else would never have obeyed the command of the Priests by a Messenger unarmed to kill themselves Our late King the best King perhaps that ever was you know was murdered having been first persecuted by War at the Incitement of Presbyterian Ministers who are therefore guilty of the Death of all that fell in that War which were I believe in England Scotland and Ireland near one hundred thousand persons Had it not been much better that those seditious Ministers which were not perhaps a thousand had been all kill'd before they had Preached It had been I confess a great Massacre but the killing of a hundred thousand is a greater B. I am glad the Bishops were out at this business as ambitious as some say they are it did not appear in that business for they were Enemies to them that were in it A. But I intend not by these Quotations to commend either the Divinity nor the Philosophy of those Heathen people but to shew only what the Reputation of those Sciences can effect among the people For their Divinity was nothing but Idolatry and their Philosophy excepting tho knowledge of the Aegyptian Priests and from them the Chaldeans had gotten by long Observation and Study in Astronomy Geometry and Arithmetick very little and that in great part abused in Astrology and Fortune-telling whereas the Divinity of the Clergy in this Nation now considered apart from the mixture that has been introduced by the Church of Rome and in part retained here of the babling Philosophy of Aristotle and other Greeks that has no Affinity with Religion and serves only to breed Disaffection Dissention and finally Sedition and Civil War as we have lately found by dear experience in the Differences between the Presbyterians and Episcopals is the true Religion But for these Differences both Parties as they were in Power not only suppressed the Tenets of one another but also whatsoever Doctrine look'd with an ill Aspect upon their Interest and consequently all true Philosophy especially Civil and Moral which can never appear propitious to Ambition or to an Exemption from Obedience due to the Soveraign Power After the King had accus'd the Lord Kimbolton
would rather have chosen to obey the Pope that could cast your Body and Soul into Hell than the King that can onely kill the Body A. You say true for it were very uncharitable in me to believe that all Englishmen except a few Papists that have been born and called Hereticks ever since the Reformation of Religion in England should be damn'd B. But for those that die Excommunicate in the Church of England at this day do you not think them also damn'd and he that is Excommunicate for disobedience to the King's Law either Spiritual or Temporal is Excommunicate for sin and therefore if he die Excommunicate and without desire of reconciliation he dies impenitent you see what follows But to die in disobedience to the Precepts and Doctrine of those men that have no Authority or Jurisdiction over us is quite another case and bringeth no such danger with it B. But what is this Heresie which the Church of Rome so cruelly persecutes as to depose Kings that do not when they are bidden turn all Hereticks out of their Dominions A. Heresie is a Word which when it is used without passion signifies a private Opinion so the different Sect of the old Philosophers Academians Peripateticks Epicureans Stoicks c. were called Heresie But in the Christian Church there was in the signification of that word comprehended a sinful opposition to him that was chief Judge of Doctrines in order to the Salvation of mens Souls and consequently Heresie may be said to bear the same relation to the Power Spiritual that Rebellion doth to the Power Temporal and is suitably to be persecuted by him that will preserve a Power Spiritual and dominion over mens Consciences B. It would be very well because we are all of us permitted to read the holy Scriptures and bound to make them the Rule of our actions both publick and private that Heresie were by some Law defined and the particular Opinions set forth for which a man were to be condemned and punished as a Heretick for else not onely men of mean capacity but even the wisest and devoutest Christian may fall into Heresie without any will to oppose the Church for the Scriptures are hard and the interpretations different of different men A. The meaning of the word Heresie is by Law declared in Act of Parliament in the First Year of Queen Elizabeth wherein it is ordained that the Persons who had by the Queens Letters Patents the Authority Spiritual meaning the High Commission shall not have Authority to Adjudge any matter or cause to be Heresie but only such as heretofore have been Adjudged to be Heresie by the Authority of the Canonical Scriptures or by the First 4 General Councils or by any other General Council where the same was declared Heresie by the express and plain words of the said Canonical Scriptures or such as hereafter shall be adjudged Heresie by the High Court of Parliament of this Realm with the assent of the Clergy in their Convocation B. It seems therefore if there arise any new Error that hath not been yet declared Heresie and many such may arise it cannot be Judged Heresie without a Parliament for how foul soever the error be it cannot have been declared Heresie neither in the Scriptures nor in the Councils because it was never before heard of and consequently there can be no Error unless it fall within the compass of Blasphemy against God or Treason against the King for which a man can in Equity be punished Besides who can tell what is declared by the Scripture which every man is allowed to read and interpret to hemself nay more what Protestant either of the Laity or Clergy if every General Council can be a competent Judge of Heresie is not already condemned for divers Councils have declar'd a great many of our Doctrines to be Heresie as they pretend upon the Authority of the Scriptures A. What are those points that the first four General Counsels have declared Heresie B. The first General Councel held at Nicaea declared all to be Heresie which was contrary to the Nicene Creed Upon occasion of the Heresie of Arrius which was the denying the Divinity of Christ the Second General Councel held at Constantinople declar'd Heresie the Doctrine of Macedonius which was that the Holy Ghost was created The Third Councel assembled at Ephesius condemned the Doctrine of Nestorius that there were two persons in Christ The Fourth held at Calcedon condemned the Error of Emtyches that there was but one nature in Christ I know of no other Points condemned in these four Councels but such as concern Church-Government or the same Doctrines taught by other Men in other words And these Councels were all called by the Emperors and by them their Decrees confirmed at the Petition of the Councels themselves A. I see by this that both the Calling of the Council and the confirmation of their Doctrine and Church-Government had no obligatory force but from the Authority of the Emperor how comes it then to pass that they take upon them now a Legislative Power and say their Canons are Laws That Text all Power is given to me in Heaven and Earth had the same force then as it hath now and conferred a Legislative Power on the Councils not only over Christian men but over all Nations in the world B. They say no for the Power they pretend to is derived from this that when a King was converted from Gentilism to Christianity he did by that very Submission to the Bishop that converted him submit to the Bishops Government and became one of his sheep which Right therefore he could not have over any Nation that was not Christian A. Did Silvester which was Pope of Rome in the time of Constantine the Great converted by him tell the Emperor his New Disciple before hand that if he became a Christian he must become the Popes Subject B. I believe not for it is likely enough if he had told him so plainly or but made him suspect it he would either have been not Christian at all or but a Counterfeit one A. But if he did not tell him so and that plainly it was foul play not only in a Priest but in any Christian And for this Derivation of their Right from the Emperors consent it proceeds only from this that they dare not challenge a Legislative power nor call their Canons Laws in any Kingdom in Christendom farther than the Kings make them so But in Peru when Atabalipa was King the Fryer told him that Christ being King of all the World had given the diposing of all the Kingdoms there to the Pope And that the Pope had given Peru to the Roman Emperor Charles the 5. and required Atabalipa to resign it and for refusing it seised upon his Person by the Spanish Army there present and murdered him You see by this how much they claim when they have power to make it good B. When began the Popes to take this
Authority upon them first A. After the Inundation of Northern People had overflowed the Western Parts of the Empire and possessed themselves of Italy the People of the City of Rome submitted themselves as well in Temporals as Spirituals to their Bishop and then first was the Pope a Temporal Prince and stood no more in so great fear of the Emperors which lived far off at Constantinople In this time it was that the Pope began by pretence of his Power Spiritual to encroach upon the Temporal Rights of all other Princes of the West and so continued gaining upon them till his Power was at the highest in that 300 years or thereabout which passed between the time of Pope Leo the 3. and Pope Innocent the 3. For in this time Pope Zachary 1. deposed Chilperick then King of France and gave the Kingdom to one of his Subjects Pepin And Pepin took from the Lombards a great part of their Territory and gave it to the Church Shortly after the Lombards having recovered their Estate Charles the Great retook it and gave it to the Church again and Pope Leo the 3. made Charles Emperor B. But what Right did the Pope there pretend for the creating of an Emperor A. He pretended the Right of being Christs Vicar and what Christ could give his Vicar might give and you know that Christ was King of all the World B. Yes as God and so he gives all the Kingdoms of the World which nevertheless proceed from the consent of People either for fear or hope A. But this Gift of the Empire was in a more special Manner in such a manner as Moses had the Government of Israel given him or rather as Joshua had it given him to go in and out before the People as the High Priest should direct him and so the Empire was understood to be given him on condition to be directed by the Pope For when the Pope invested him with the Regal Ornaments the People all cryed out Deus dat that is to say 't is God that gives it And from that time all or most of the Christian Kings do put into their Titles the words Dei gratia that is by the gift of God And their Successors use still to receive the Crown and Scepter from a Bishop 'T is certainly a very good Custom for Kings to be put in mind by whose gift they reign but it cannot from that Custom he infer'd that they receive the Kingdom by mediation from the Pope or by any other Clergy For the Popes themselves received the Papacy from the Emperor the first that ever was elected Bishop of Rome after Emperors were Christians and without the Emperors consent executed himself by Letter to the Emperor with this that the People and Clergy of Rome forced him to take it upon him and prayed the Emperor to confirm it which the Emperor did but with Reprehension of their Proceedings and prohibition of the like for the time to come the Emperor was Lotharius and the Pope Calixtus the first A. You see by this the Emperor never acknowledged this gift of God was the gift of the Pope but maintained the Popedom was the gift of the Emperor but in process of time by the negligence of the Emperor for the greatness of Kings makes them that they cannot easily descend into the obscure and narrow Mines of an ambitious Clergy they found means to make the people believe there was a Power in the Pope and Clergy which they ought to submit unto rather than to the Commands of their own King whensoever it should come into Controversy and to that end devised and decreed many new Articles of Faith to the diminution of the Authority of Kings and to the disjunction of them and their Subjects and to a closer adherence of their Subjects to the Church of Rome's Articles either not at all found in or not well founded upon the Scripture as first That it should not be lawful fur a Priest to Marry What influence could that have upon the power of Kings do you not see that by this the King must of necessity either want the Priesthood and therewith a great part of the Reverence due to him from the most Religious part of his Subjects or else want Lawful Heirs to succeed in by which means being not taken for the Head of the Church he was sure in any controversie between him and the Pope that his Subjects would be against him B. Is not a Christian King as much a Bishop now as the Heathen Kings were of old for amongst them Episcopus was a name common to all Kings is not he a Bishop now to whom god hath committed the charge of all the Souls of his Subjects both of the Laity and of the Clergy And though he be in relation to our Saviour who is the chief Pastour of Sheep yet compared to his own Subjects they are all Sheep both Laick and Clergy and he the onely Shepherd and seeing a Christian Bishop is but a Christian endued with power to govern the Clergy it follows that every Christian King is not onely a Bishop but an Archbishop and his whole Kingdom his Diocess And though it were granted that Imposition of hands were necessary for a Priest yet seeing Kings have the power of Government of the Clergy that are the Subjects even before Baptism the Baptism it self where he is received as a Christian is a sufficient Imposition of Hands so that whereas before he was a Bishop now he is a Christian Bishop A. For my part I agree with you this prohibition of Marriage to Priests came in about the time of Pope Gregory the Seventh and William the First King of England by which means the Pope had in England what with Secular and what with Regular Priests a great many lusty Batchelors at his service Secondly that Auricular Confession to a Priest was necessary to Salvation 'T is true that before that time Confession to a Priest was usual and performed for the most part by him that Confessed People And the end which the Pope had in multiplying Sermons was no other but to prop and enlarge his own Authority over all Christian Kings and States B. Within the same time that is between the time of the Emperor Charles the Great and of King Edward the Third of England began their second Policy which was to bring Religion into an Art and thereby to maintain all their Degrees of the Roman Church by Disputation not onely from the Scriptures but also from the Philosophy of Aristotle both Moral and Natural and to that end the Pope exhorted the said Emperor by Letters to erect Schools of all kinds of Literature and from thence began the institution of Universities for not long after the Universities began in Paris and in Oxford It is true that there were Schools in England before that time in several places for the instruction of Children in the Latin Tongue that is to say in the Tongue of the Church but
time they had demanded some of them in a Petition which they called a Petition of Right which nevertheless the King had granted them in a former Parliament though he deprived himself thereby not only of the Power to Levy Money without their consent but also of his ordinary Revenue by Custom of Tonnage and Poundage and of the Liberty to put into Custody such men as he thought likely to disturb the Peace and raise Sedition in the Kingdom As for the men that did this 't is enough to say they were the Members of the last Parliament and of some other Parliaments in the beginning of the Reign of King Charles I. and the end of the Reign of King James To name them all is not necessary farther then the Story shall require most of them were Members of the House of Commons some few also of the Lords But all such as had a great Opinion of their sufficiency in Politicks which they thought was not sufficiently taken notice of by the King B. How could the Parliament when the King had a great Navy and a great number of Train'd Souldiers and all the Magazines of Ammunition in his power be able to begin the War A. The King had these things in his Right but that signifies little when they had the Custody of the Navy and Magazines and with them all the Trained Souldiers and in a manner all the Subjects were by the Preaching of Presbyterian Ministers and the seditious whispering of false and ignorant Politians made his Enemies and when the King could have no Money but what the Parliament should give him which you may be sure should not be enough to maintain his Legal Power which they intended to take from him And yet I think they would never have adventured into the Field but for that unlucky business of imposing upon the Scots who were all Presbyterians our Book of Common Prayer for I believe the English would never have taken well that the Parliament should make War upon the King upon any provocation unless it were in their own defence in case the King should first make War upon them and therefore it behoved them to provoke the King that he might do something that might look like Hostility It hapned in the year 1637. that the King by advice as it is thought of the Arch-bishop of Canterbury sent down a Book of Common Prayer into Scotland not differing in substance from ours nor much in words besides the putting of the word Presbyter for that of Minister commanding it to be used for Conformity to this Kingdom by the Ministers there for an ordinary of Divine Service this being read in the Church at Edinburgh caused such a Tumult there that he that read it had much adoe to escape with his life and gave occasion to the greatest part of the Nobility and others to enter by their own Authority into a Covenant amongst themselves to put down Episcopacy without consulting the King which they presently did animated thereto by their own Confidence or by assurance from some of the Democratical English-men that in former Parliaments had been the greatest opposers of the King's Interest that the King would not be able to raise an Army to chastise them without calling a Parliament which would be sure to favour them for the thing which those Democraticals chiefly then aimed at was to force the King to call a Parliament which he had not done of ten years before as having found no help but hindrance to his designs in the Parliaments he had formerly called Howsoever contrary to their expectation by the help of his better affected Subjects of the Nobility and Gentry he made a shift to raise a sufficient Army to have reduced the Scots to their former obedience if it had proceeded to Battle And with this Army he marched himself into Scotland where the Scotch Army was also brought into the Field against him as if they meant to fight but then the Scotch sent to the King for leave to treat by Commissioners on both sides and the King willing to avoid the destruction of his own Subjects condescended to it the issue was peace and the King thereupon went to Edinburgh and passed an Act of Parliament there to their Satisfaction B. Did he not then confirm Episcopacy A. No but yeilded to the abolishing of it but by the means the English were crossed in their hope of a Parliament but the Democraticals formerly opposers of the King's Interest ceased not to endeavour still to put the two Nations into a War to the end the King might buy the Parliaments help at no luss a price than Soveraignty it self B. But what was the Cause that the Gentry and Nobility of Scotland were so averse from Episcopacy For I can hardly believe that their Consciences were extraordinarily tender nor that there were so very great Divines as to know what was the true Church Discipline established by our Saviour and his Apostles nor yet so much in love with their Ministers as to be over-ruled by them in the Government either Ecclesiastical or Civil for in their lives they were just as other men are Pursuers of their own Interests and Preferments wherein they were not more opposed by the Bishops than by their Presbyterian Ministers A. Truly I do not know I cannot enter into other mens thoughts farther than I am led by the consideration of Human Nature in general Bet upon this consideration I see First That men of Ancient Wealth and Nobility are not apt so to brook that poor Sâ—hollars should as they must when they are made Bishops be their Fellows Secondly That from the emulation of Glory between the Nations they be willing to see their Nation afflicted with Civil War and might hope by aiding the Rebels here to acquire some Power over the English at least so far as to establish here the Presbyterian Discipline which was also one of the points they afterwards openly demanded Lastly They might hope for in the War some great sum of Money as a reward of their assistance bendes great Booty which they afterwards obtained but whatsoever was the cause of their hatred to Bishops the pulling them down was not all they-timed at if it had now that Episcopacy was abolished by Act of Parliament they would have rested satisfied which they did not for after the King was returned to London the English Presbyterians and Democraticals by whose favour they had put down Bishops in Scotland thought it reason to have the assistance of the Scotch for the pulling down the Bishops in England and in order thereunto they might perhaps deal with the Scots secretly to rest unsatisfied with that pacification which they were before contented with howsoever it was not long after the King was returned to London they sent up to some of their friends at Court a certain Paper containing as they apprehended the Articles of the said pacification a false and scandalous Paper which was by the King's Command burnt as I
Writings And from these the School-men that succeeded learnt the trick of imposing what they lift upon their Readers and declining the force of true Reason by verbal Forks I mean distinctions that signifie nothing but serve onely to astonish the multitude of ignorant men as for the understanding Readers they were so few that these new sublime Doctors cared not what they thought these School-men were to make good all the Articles of Faith which the Pope from time to time should command to be believed amongst which there were very many inconsistent with the Rights of Kings and other Civil Sovereigns as asserting to the Pope all Authority whatsoever they should declare to be necessary in ordine ad Spiritualia that is to say in order to Religion From the Universities also it was that Preachers proceeded and were poured out into City and Countrey to terrifie people into obedience to the Popes Canons and Commands which for fear of wakening Kings and Princes too much they durst not yet call them Laws From the Universities it was that the Philosophy of Aristotle was made an ingredient to Religion as serving for a Salve to a great many absurd Articles concerning the nature of Christ's Body and the state of Angels and Saints in Heaven which Articles they thought fit to have believed because they bring some of them profit and others reverence to the Clergy even to the meanest of them for when they shall have made the People believe that the meanest of them can make the Body of Christ who is there that will not both shew them reverence and be liberal to them or to the Church especially in the time of their sickness when they think they make and bring to them their Saviour B. But what advantage to them in these Impostures was the Doctrine of Aristotle A. They have made more use of his Obscurity than his Doctrine for none of the antient Philosophers Writing are comparable to those of Aristotle for their aptness to puzzle and intangle men with words and to breed disputation which must at last be ended in the determination of the Church of Rome And in the Doctrine of Aristotle they made use of many points as first the Doctrine of separated Essences B. What are separated Essences A Separated Beings B. Separated from what A. From every thing that is B. I cannot understand the Being of any thing which I understand not to be but what can they make of that A. Very much in questions concerning the nature of God and concerning the state of man's Soul after death in Heaven Hell and Purgatory by which you and every man knows how great obedience and how much Money they gain from the common People Whereas Aristotle holdeth the Soul of Man to be the first giver of Motion to the Body and consequently to it self They make use of that in the Doctrine of Free-will what and how they gain by that I will not say He holdeth forth that there be many things that come to pass in this World from no necessity of Causes but meer Contingency Casualty and Fortune B. Me-thinks in this they make God stand idle and to be a meer spectator in the Games of Fortune for what God is the cause of must needs come to pass and in my opinion nothing else But because there must be some ground for Justice of the eternal Torment of the Damned perhaps it is this That mens Wills and Propensions are not they think in the hands of God but of themselves And in this also I see something conducing to the Authority of the Church A. This is not much nor was Aristotle of such credit with them but that when his opinion was against theirs they could slight him whatsoever he says is impossible in Nature they can prove well enough to be possible from the Almighty power of God who can make Bodies to be in one and the self-same place and one Body to be in many places at the same time if the Doctrine of Transubstantiation require it though Aristotle deny it I like not the design of drawing Religion into an Art whereas it ought to be a Law And though not the same in all Countreys yet in every Countrey indisputable nor that they teach it as Arts ought to be taught by shewing first the meaning of their Terms and then deriving from them the Truth they would have us believe nor that their Terms are for the most part untelligible though to make it seem rather want of Learning in the Reader than want of sair dealing in themselves they are for the most part Latin and Greek words wried a little the point towards the Native Language of the several Countries where they are used But that which is most intollâ—rable is That all Clerks are forced to make as if they believe them if they mean to have any Church-Preferment the Keys whereof are in the Popes hands and the common People whatsoever they believe of those sâ—btâ—â— Doctrines are never esteemed better Sons of the Church for their Learning There is but one way there to Salvation that is extraordinary Devotion and Liberality to the Church and readiness for the Churches sake if it be required to fight against their Natural and Lawful Sovereigns B. I see what use they make of Aristotles Logick Physick and Metaphysicks But I see not yet how his Politicks can serve their turn A. Nor I It has I think done them no good though it has done us here much hurt by accident for men grown weary at last of the Insolence of the Priests and examining the Truths of those Doctrines that were put upon them began to search the sense of the Scriptures as they are in the Learned Languages and consequently Studying Greek and Latin became acquainted with the Democratical Principles of Aristotle and Cicero and from the Love of their Eloquence fell in Love with the Politicks and more and more till it grew into the Rebellion we now talk of without any other advantage to the Roman Church but that it was awakening to us whom since we broke out of their Net in the time of Henry 8. they have continually endeavoured to recover B. What have they gotten by teaching of Aristotles Ethicks A. It is some advantage to them that neither the Morals of Aristotle nor of any other have done them any harm nor us any good Their Doctrine have caused a great deal of Dispute concerning Vertue and Vice but no knowledge of what they are nor any method of attaining Vertue nor of avoiding Vice The end of Moral Philosophy is to teach men of all sorts their Duty both to the publick and to one another The Estimate Virtue partly by a Mediocrity of the Passions of Men and partly by that that they are praised whereas it is not the much or little praise that makes an Action Virtuous but the Cause nor much or little blame that makes an Action Vitious but its being unconformable to the Laws in such men
would proceed to Judgment Then the King answering that he had no more to say the President began a long Speech in justification of the Parliaments Proceedings producing the Examples of many Kings kill'd or depos'd by wicked Parliaments Ancient and Modern in England Scotland and other parts of the World All which he endeavoured to justifie from this only Principle that the People have the Supreme Power and the Parliament is the People This Speech ended the Sentence of Death was read and the same upon Tuesday after January the 30. executed at the Gate of his own Palace of White-Hall He that can delight in reading how villanously he was used by the Souldiers between the Sentence and Execution may go to the Chronicle it self in which he shall see what courage patience wisdom and goodness was in this Prince whom in their Charge the Members of that wicked Parliament styled Traytor Tyrant and Murderer The King being dead the same day they made an Act of Parliament That whereas several pretences might be made to the Crown c. it is Enacted by this present Parliament and Authority of the same that no Person shall presume to declare proclaim or publish or any way promote Charles Stuart Son of Charles late King of England commonly called Prince of Wales or any other Person to be King of England and Ireland c. B. Seeing the King was dead and his Successors barr'd by what declar'd Authority was the Peace maintain'd A. They had in their anger against the Lords formerly declar'd the Supreme Power of the Nation to be in the House of Commons and now on February the fifth they Vote the House of Lords to be useless and dangerous And thus the Kingdom was turn'd into a Democracy or rather an Oligarchy for presently they made an Act That none of those Members who were secluded for opposing the Vote of Non-Addresses should ever be re-admitted And these were commonly called the Secluded Members and the rest were by some styled a Parliament and by others a Rump I think you need not now have a Catalogue either of the Vices or of the Crimes or of the Pollies of the greatest part of them that composed the Long-Parliament than which greater cannot be in the world What greater Vices than Irreligion Hypocrisie Avarice and Cruelty which have appeared so eminently in the actions of Presbyterian Members and Presbyterian Ministers What greater Crimes than Blasphemy and killing Gods Anointed which was done by the hands of the Indipendents but by the folly and first Treason of the Presbyterians who betrayed and sold him to his Murderers Nor was it a little folly in the Lords not to see that by the taking away of the Kings Power they lost withall their own Priviledges or to think themselves either for number or judgment any way a considerable assistance to the House of Commons And for those men who had skill in the Laws it was no great sign of understanding not to perceive that the Laws of the Land were made by the King to oblige his Subjects to Peace and Justice and not to oblige himself that made them Lastly and generally all men are Fools which pull down any thing which does them good before they have set up something better in its place He that would set up Democracy with an Army should have an Army to maintain it but these men did it when those men had the Army that were resolv'd to pull it down To these follies I might add the follies of those five men which out of their reading of Tully Seneca and other Antimonarchicks think themselves sufficient Politicks and shew their discontents when they are not called to the management of the State and turn from one side to the other upon every neglect they fancy from the King or his Enemies A. YOU have seen the Rump in possession as they believ'd of the Supreme Power over the two Nations of England and Ireland and the Army their Servant though Cromwel thought otherwise serving them diligently for the advancement of his own purpose I am now therefore to shew you their proceedings B. Tell me first how this kind of Government under the Rump or Relick of a House of Commons is to be call'd A. 'T is doubtless an Oligarchy for the Supreme Authority must needs be in one man or in more if in one it is Monarchy the Rump therefore was no Monarchy if the Authority were in more than one it was in all or in sewer than all when in all it is Democraty for every man may enter into the Assembly which makes the Soveraign Court which they could not do here It is therefore manifest the Authority was in a few and consequently the State was an Oligarchy B. Is it not impossible for a people to be well Governed that are to obey more Masters than one A. Both the Rump and all other Soveraign Assemblies if they have but one Voice though they be many Men yet are they but one Person for contrary Commands cannot consist in one and the same Voice which is the Voice of the greatest part and therefore they might govern well enough if they had honesty and wit enough The first Act of the Rump was the Exclusion of those Members of the House of Commons which had been formerly kept out by Violence for the precuring of an Ordinance for the King's Tryal for these men had appear'd against the Ordinance of Non-Addresses and therefore to be excluded because they might else be an Impediment to their future Designs B. Was it not rather because in the Authority of few they thought the fewer the better both in regard of their shares and also of a nearer approach in every one of them to the Dignity of a King A. Yes certainly what was their Principal End B. When these were put out why did not the Counties and Burroughs chuse others in their Places A. They could not do that without Order from the House After this they constituted a Council of forty persons which they termed a Council of State whose Office was to execute what the Rump should command B. When there was neither King nor House of Lords they could not call themselves a Parliament for a Parliament is a meeting of the King Lords and Commons to confer together about the Businesses of the Common-Wealth With whom did the Rump confer A. Men may give to their Assembly what Name they please what signification soever such Name might formerly have had and the Rump took the Name of Parliament as most suitable to their purpose and such a Name as being Venerable among the people for many hundred years had countenanced and sweetened Subsidies and other Levies of Money otherwise very unpleasant to the Subject They took also afterwards another name which was Custodes Libertatis Angliae which Title they used only in their Writs issuing out of the Courts of Justice B. I do not see how a Subject that is tyed to the Laws can have more
Tax upon the people of ninety thousand pound a Month for the maintenance of the Army B Was it not one of their Quarrels with the King that he had levied Money without the consent of the people in Parliament A. You may see by this what reason the Rump had to call it self a Parliament for the Taxes imposed by Parliament were always understood to be by the peoples consent and consequently legal To appease the Scots they sent Messengers with flattering Letters to keep them from ingaging for the present King but in vain for they would hear nothing from a House of Commons as they call'd it at Westminster without a King and Lords But they sent Commissioners to the King to let him know what they were doing for him for they were resolv'd to raise an Army of seventeen thousand Foot and six thousand Horse for themselves To relieve Ireland the Rump had resolv'd to send eleven Regiments thither out of the Army here in England This happened well for Cromwel for the Levelling Soldiers which were in every Regiment many and in some the major part finding that instead of dividing the Land at home they were to venture their Lives in Ireland flatly denied to go and one Regiment having cashier'd their Colonel about Salisbury was marching to joyn with three Regiments more of the same resolution but both the General and Cromwel falling upon them at Burford utterly defeated them and soon after reduced the whole Army to their obedience And thus another of the Impediments to Cromwel's Advancement was soon remov'd Thus done they came to Oxford and thence to London and at Oxford both the General and Cromwel were made Doctors of the Civil Law and at London â—easted and presented by the City B. Were they not first made Masters then Dâ—ctors A. They had made themselves Masters already both of the Laws and Parliament The Army being now obedient the Rump sent over those eleven Regiments into Ireland under the Command of Doctor Cromwel Entituled Governour of that Kingdom the Lord Fairfax being still General of all the Forces both here and there The Marquess now Duke of Ormond was the Kings Lieutenant of Ireland and the Rebels had made a Confederacy among themselves and those Confederates had made a kind of League with the Lieutenant wherein they agreed upon liberty given them in the exercise of their Religion to be faithful to and assist the King To these also were joyned some Forces raised by the Earls of Castlehaven and Clanriccard and my Lord Inchequin so that they were the greatest United Strength in the Island but there were among them a great many other Papists that would by no means subject themselves to Protestants and these were called the Nuncio's Party as the other were called the Confederate Party These Parties not agreeing and the Confederate Party having broken their Articles the Lord Lieutenant seeing them ready to besiege him in Dublin and not able to defend it to preserve the place for the Protestants surrenders it to the Parliament of England and came over to the King at this time when he was carried from place to place by the Army From England he went over to the Prince now King residing then at Paris But the Confederates affrighted with the news that the Rump was sending over an Army thither desir'd the Prince by Letters to send back my Lord of Ormond ingaging themselves to submit absolutely to the Kings Authority and to obey my Lord of Ormond as his Lieutenant And thereupon he was sent back This was about a year before the going over of Cromwel in which time by the Dissentions in Ireland between the Confederate Party and the Nuncio's Party and discontents about Command this otherwise sufficient Power effected nothing and was at last defeated August the second by a Salley out of Dublin which they were besieging Within a few days after arriv'd Cromwel who with extraordinary diligence and horrid Executions in less than a Twelve-month that he staid there subdued in a manner the whole Nation having kill'd or exterminated a great part of them and leaving his Son-in-law Ireton to subdue the rest But Ireton died there before the business was quite done of the Plague This was one step more towards Cromwel's Exaltation to the Throne B. What a miserable condition was Ireland reduced to by the Learning of the Roman as well as England was by the Learning of the Presbyterian Clergy A. In the latter end of the preceeding year the King was come from Paris to the Hague and shortly after came thither from the Rump their Agent Dorisâ—aus Doctor of the Civil Law who had been imployed in the drawing of the Charge against the late King But the first night he came as he was at Supper a Company of Cavaliers near a dozen entred his Chamber kill'd him and got away Not long after also their Agent at Madrid one Ascham that had written in defence of his Masters was kill'd in the same manner About this tire came out two Books one written by Salmasius a Presbyterian against the Murder of the King another written by Milton an Independent in England in Answer to it B. I have seen them both they are very good Laâ—iâ—â— both and hardly to be judged which is better and both very ill reasoning and hardly to be judged which is worst like two Declamations Pro and Con for Exercise only in a Rhetorick School by one and the same man So like is a Presbyterian to an Independent A. In this year the Rump did not much at home save that in the beginning they made England a Free State by an Act that runs thus Be it Enacted and Declared by this present Parliament and by the Authority thereof That the people of England and all the Dominions and Territories thereunto belonging are and shall be and are hereby constituted made and declared a Common-wealth and Free State c. B. What did they mean by a Free State and Common-wealth were the people no longer to be subject to Laws They could not mean that for the Parliament meant to Govern them by their own Laws and punish such as broke them Did they mean that England should not be subject to any foreign Kingdom or Common-wealth That needed not be Enacted seeing there was no King nor People pretended to be their Masters What did they mean then A. They meant that neither this King nor any King nor any single person but only that they themselves would be the Peoples Masters and would have set it down in those plain words if the people could have been cozen'd with words intelligible as easily as with words not intelligible After this they gave one another Money and Estates out of the Lands and Goods of the Loyal Party They Enacted also an Engagement to be taken by every man in these words Tou shall promise to be true and faithful to the Common-wealth of England as it is now established without King or House of Lords They
he meant to sweep the Sea of all English Shipping After this in February â—he Dutch with Van Tromp were encountred by the English under Blake and Dean near Ports-mouth and had the worst And these were all the Encounters between them this year in the narrow Seas they fought also once at Leghorn where the Dutch had the better B. I see no great odds yet on either side if there were any the English had it A. Nor did either of them e're the more incline to Peace for the Hollanders after they had sent Ambassadors into Denmark Sweeden Poland and the Hans Towns whence Tar and Cordage are usually had to signifie the Declaration of the War and to get them to their Party re-called their Ambassadors from England and the Rump without delay gave their parting audience without abating a Syllable of their former severe Propositions and presently to maintain the War for the next year laid a Tax upon the People of 120000 l. per Mâ—nsem B. What was done in the mean time at home A. Cromwel was now quarrelling the last and greatest Obstacle to his Design the Rump and to that end there came out dayly from the Army Petitions Addresses Remonstrances and other such Papers some of them urging the Rump to dissolve themselves and make way for another Parliament to which the Rump unwilling to yield and not daring to refuse determin'd for the end of their sitting the 5th of November 1654. but Cromwel meant not to stay so long In the mean time the Army in Ireland was taking Submissions and granting Transportations of the Irish and condemning who they pleased in a High Court of Justice erected there for that purpose Among those that were executed was hang'd Sir Phelim Oneale who first began the Rebellion in Scotland the English built some Citadels for the bridling that stubborn Nation and thus ended the year 1652. B. Come we then to the year 1653. A. Cromwel wanted now but one step to the end of his Ambition and that was To set his Foot upon the Neck of this Long-Parliament which he did April the 23th of this present year 1653. a time very seasonable for though the Dutch were not master'd yet they were much weakned and what with Prizes from the Enemy and squeezing the Royal Party the Treasury was pretty full and the Tax of 120000 l. a Month began to come in all which was his own in right of the Army Therefore without any more ado attended by the Major Generals Lambert and Harrison some other Officers and as many Souldiers as he thought fit he went to the Parliament House and dissolv'd them turn'd them out and lock'd up the Doors and for this Action he was more applauded by the people than for any of his Victories in the War and the Parliament men as much scorn'd and derided B. Now that there was no Parliament who had the Supreme Power A. If by Power you mean the right to Govern no body had it if you mean the Supreme Strength it was clearly in Cromwel who was obeyed as General of all the Forces in England Scotland and Ireland B. Did he pretend that for Title A. No but presently after he intended a Title which was this That he was necessitated for the defence of the Cause for which at first the Parliament had taken up Arms that is to say Rebell'd to have recourse to extraordinary Actions You know the pretence of the Long-Parliament's Rebellion was Salus Populi the safety of the Nation against a dangerous Conspiracy of Papists and a malignant Party at home and that every man is bound as far as his Power extends to procure the safety of the whole Nation which none but the Army were able to do and the Parliament had hitherto neglected was it not then the Generals duty to do it had he not therefore right for that Law of Salus Populi is directed only to those that have Power enough to defend the People that is to them that have the Supreme Power B. Yes certainly he had as good a Title as the Long-Parliament but the Long-Parliament did represent the People and it seems to me that the Soveraign Power is essentially annexed to the Representative of the People A. Yes if he that makes a Representative that is in the present case the King do call them together to receive the Soveraign Power and he divest himself thereof otherwise not nor was ever the lower house of Parliament the Representative of the whole Nation but of the Commons only nor had that House the Power to oblige by their Acts or Ordinances any Lord or any Priest B. Did Cromwel come in upon the only Title of Salus Populi For this is a Title very few understand A. His way was to get the Supreme Power conferr'd upon him by Parliament therefore he call'd a Parliament and gave it the Supreme Power to the end that they should give it to him again was not this witty First therefore he published a Declaration of the Causes why he dissolv'd the Parliament the sum whereof was That instead of endeavouring to promote the good of Gods people they endeavour'd by a Bill then ready to pas to recruit the House and perpetuate their own Power Next he constituted a Council of State of his own Creatures to be the Supreme Autority of England but no longer than till the next Parliament should be call'd and met Thiâ—dly he summon'd 142 persons such as he himself or his trusty Officers made choice of the greatest part of whom were instructed what to do obscure persons and most of them Phanaticks though stil'd by Cromwel Men of approv'd fidelity and honâ—sty to these the Council of State surrender'd the Supreme Authority and not long after these men surrendred it to Cromwel July the fourth this Parliament met and chose for their Speaker one Mr. Rous and called themselves from that time forward The Parliament of England But Cromwel for the more surety constituted also a Council of State not of such petty Fellows as most of these were but of himself and of his principal Officers These did all the business both publick and private making Ordinances and giving Audience to Foreign Ambassadors But he had now more Enemâ—es than before Harrison who was the Head of the Fifth monarchy-men laying down his Commission did nothing but anâ—mate his Party against him for which afterward he was Imprisoned This little Parliament in the mean time were making of Acts so ridiculous and displeasing to the People that it was thought he chose them on purpose to bring all ruling Parliaments into contempt and Monarchy again into credit B. What Acts were these A. One of them was That all Marriages should be made by a Justice of Peace and the Banes asked three several days in the next Market None were forbidden to be Married by a Minister but without a Justice of Peace the Marriage was to be void so divers wary Couples to be sure of one another howsoever
they might repent it afterwards were Married both ways Also they abrogated the Engagement whereby no man was admitted to sue in any Court of Law that had not taken it that is that had not acknowledged the late Rump B. Neither of these did any hurt to Cromwel A. They where also in hand with an Act to Cancel all the present Laws and Law-Books and to make a new Code more suitable to the Humor of the Fifth-Monarchy-Men of whom there were many in this Parliament their Tenet being That there ought none to be Soveraign but King Jesus nor any to Govern under him but the Saints but their Authority ended before this Act passed B. What is this to Cromwel A. Nothing yet but they were likewise upon an Act now almost ready for the Question that Parliaments hence forward one upon the end of another should be Perpetual B. I understand not this unless Parliaments can beget one another like Animals or like the Phâ—nix A. Why not like the Phoenix Cannot a Parliament at the day of their Expiration send out Writs for a new one B. Do you think they would not rather Summon themselves anew and to save the labour of coming again to VVestminster fit still where they were or if they summon the Counties to make new Elections and then Dissolve themselves by what Authority shall the People meet in their County-Court there being no Supreme Authority standing A. All they did was absurd though they knew not that no nor this whose Design was upon the Soveraignty the Contrivers of this Act it seems perceiv'd not but Cromwel's Party in the House saw it well enough and therefore as soon as it was laid there stood up one of the Members and made a Motion that since the Common-wealth was like to receive little benefit by their Sitting they should Dissolve themselves Harrison and they of â—his Sect was troubled hereat and made Speeches against it but Cromwel's party of whom the Speaker was one left the House and with the Mace before them went to VVhite-Hall and surrendred their Power to Cromwel that had given it them and so he got the Soveraignty by an Act of Parliament and within four days after viz. December 16th was Installed Protector and took his Oath to observe certain Rules of Governing engrossed in Parchment and read before him the writing was called The Instrument B. What were the Rules he sware to A. One was to call a Parliament every third year of which the first was to begin Sept. the third following B. I believe he was a little Superstitious in the Choice of September the third because it was lucky in 1650 and 1651 at Dunbar and VVorcester but he knew not how lucky the same would be to the whole Nation in 1658. at VVhite-Hall A. Another was That no Parliament should be Dissolv'd till it had sitten five Months and those Bills that they then presented to him should be passed within twenty days by him or else they should pass without him A third That he should have a Council of State of not above twenty one nor under thirteen and that upon the Protectors Death this Council should meet and before they parted chuse a new Protector There were many more besides but not necessary to be inserted B. How went on the War against the Dutch A. The Generals for the English were Blake and Dean and Monk and Van Trump for the Dutch between whom was a Battel fought the second of June which was a Month before the beginning of this little Parliament wherein the English had the Victory and drove the Enemies into their Harbours but with the loss of General Dean slain by a Cannon-shot This Victory was great enough to make the Dutch send over Ambassadors into England in order to a Treaty But in the mean time they prepared and put to Sea another Fleet which likewise in the end of July was defeated by General Monk who got now a greater Victory than before And this made the Dutch descend so far as to buy their Peace with the payment of the Charge of the War and with the acknowledgment among other Articles that the English had the right of the Flag This Peace was concluded in March being the end of this year but not proclaimed till April the Money it seems being not paid till them The Dutch War being now ended the Protector sent his youngest Son Henry into Ireland whom also some time after he made Lieutenant there and sent Monk Lieutenant General into Scotland to keep those Nations in Obedience Nothing else worth remembring was done this year at home saving the discovery of a Plot of Royalists as was said upon the Life of the Protector who all this while had intelligence of the King's Designs from a Traytor in his Court who afterwards was taken in the manner and kill'd B. How came he into so much trust with the King A. He was the Son of a Collonel that was slain in the Wars on the late King's side Besides he pretended Employment from the King 's loyal and loving Subjects here to convey to his Majesty Money as they from time to time should send him And to make this credible Cromwel himself caused Money to be sent him The following year 1654. had nothing of War but was spent in Civil Ordinances in appointing of Judges preventing of Plots for Usurpers are jealous and in executing of the Kings Friends and selling their Lands The third of September according to the Instrument the Parliament met in which there was no House of Lords and the House of Commons was made as formerly of Knights and Burgesses but not as formerly two Burgesses of a Burrough and two Knights for a County for Burroughs for the most part had but one Burgess and some Counties six or seven Knights besides there were twenty Members for Scotland and as many for Ireland So that now Cromwel had nothing to do but to shew his Art of Government upon six Coach-Horses newly presented him which being as rebellious as himself threw him out of the Coach-Box and had almost kill'd him B. This Parliament which had seen how Cromwel handled the two former the long and the short one had surely learnt the wit to behave themselves better to him than those had done A. Yes especially now that Cromwel in his Speech at their first meeting had expresly forbidden them to meddle with the Government of a single Person and Parliament or with the Militia or with perpetuating of Parliaments or taking away Liberty of Conscience And he told them also that every Member of the House before they sate must take a Recognition of his Power in divers points whereupon of above 400 there appear'd not above 200 at first though afterwards some relenting there sat about 300 again Just at their sitting down he published some Ordinances of his own bearing date before their meeting that they might see he took his own Acts to be as valid as theirs But all