to pray for the Kingdome of God to come we are not to limit it to this that Christ may come to rule in us onely but that-he may rule as a King in the heart of all his chosen Neither ought wee alone to acknowledge praises but wee ought to desire that prayses to God may be acknowledged by others also and that they may grant the Kingdome and power and glory to be his not that he should be a King onely to rule in the hearts of men but also that he may rule and governe the actions of the bodies of men in his outward worship as we are commanded to glorifie God with our bodies and soules and the reason is because they are his 1 Cor. 6. 20. Now if our bodies and soules be Gods then it must needs be granted that it is in spirituall worship for in all civill things it hath beene acknowledged already that both bodies and lives are our soveraigne Lord the Kings in whose Land we dwell Now if there were any forme of prayer for men to bind themselves unto it would have beene shewed either in this Scripture or in some other which thing you have not yet proved That they were not tied to this forme of words is plaine by another Evangelist which doth not use the same words but addeth some and leaveth out other some and also the whole forme of thankesgiving is left out by Luke Luke 11. 2. 3. 4. Compared with Matth. 6. 9. and to seeke the helpe of any booke but the Bible to teach men to pray is to disable God which hath promised to give Beleevers his Spirit whereby they shall cry Abba Father c and that that Spirit should leade them into all truth and bring all things to their remembrance d Therefore a forme of prayer for men to tie themselves unto cannot be sufficient and pleasing to God though it were never imposed by any Thirdly you lay another slander upon us as though we should affirme that Christian Princes and Magistrates who are defenders of the Faith have no more to doe in and about the Church then Heathen Princes This is not true for we know that Christian Princes and Magistrates ought to be members of Christs Church and so being they may be Officers in the Church And if they be Defenders of the Faith they be such as defend the pure worship of God manifested in his Word as also the true professors thereof and that against all tyrannicall power that shall attempt to suppresse either it or them as the good Kings of Judah and Israel did by slaying the Servants and Prophets of Baal who had slaine the Lords people But Heathen Kings cannot be said to be members of the Church of Christ before they know Christ and then they become Christian Kings Therefore to vent upon all occasions such principles as you see wee hold and maintaine is not as you say dangerous and insufferable neither are the people But you say further that the people for a great part of them are heady and refractory and proud and bitter and scornfull and dispisers of authoritie and that they will not suffer publike prayers to be prayed but that by their gesture and threatning of the Ministers they have laboured to hinder the use of them And these people I gather from your owne words are the professors in England and especially in the city of London and it is very like to be so because they were there at the time of your service for neither the Separates nor Semiseparates as you call them use to be there at the time of your service for ought I know and these Professors you have also called Idle busibodies tatlers also as it is said 1 Tim. 5. 13. very wanton in their wits say you affecting novelties in Religion and liking of points that are not established nor commonly held and these you say are many of the professors * And in your second Reason against Toleration Pag. 24. you say that the mindes of multitudes of the Professors in England and especially in this citie are upon all occasions very apt to fall to any way in Doctrine or Discipline that is not commonly received by the Church c. But I tel you you ought not to blame any for withstanding any thing in Gods worship which is not grounded in his Word Neither if the whole body of the worship there tendred be the invention of man ought any of them to be blamed for opposing such a worship because it is according to their Protestation Yet I justifie none that will oppose disorderly as either by casting up of hats or threatning the Minister or any the like unseemely behaviour for I judge it better for them to depart in peace if they have not faith in the action performed But methinkes Mr. Edwards you have foulely missed it in that you have thus vilified your brethren to call them by the names of those mockers which Paul testified should come in the last time that should be heady and high minded and proud boasters and dispisers of authority for such as these have not the power of godlinesse and by this you make your Church a foule Church and defile shrewdly your owne nest and make it appeare to all men that you live in a Cage of uncleane birds therefore you are commanded from such to turne aside * if the feare of God be in your heart Moreover You say you feare they will not tolerate the Government established by the Ecclesiasticall and civill Lawes and you would faine father the cause of this your feare upon Separates and Independancie whereas you cannot be so ignorant but that you must know that the government established by Law may stand without the leave of Separates for they have neither power to give toleration nor to prohibit toleration for or against any thing But you say you would rather pray against toleration than prophesie of the wofull effeâ—ts of it I answer if you can make such a prayer in a time acceptable then sometimes such prayers will be accepted which are not grounded upon Gods Word But of the wofullest effects of toleration you have prophesied already in that you say they will withstand your Doctrine and your dues * and that will be a wofull effect indeede when you shall be driven to cry out Alas alas that great city Babylon for in one houre is so great wealth come to desolation Thus much for your Seventh Reason IN your Eight Reason you affirme That these Independant men where they have power as in New-England will not tolerate any Churches or Government but in their owne way In using the word these you carry the matter so darkely that I know not whom you meane for you have named none But you seeme to say they be men that have power in New England I answer Indeede it may happen to be so That there may be some men there that take upon them authority to binde mens consciences
the way of government given by Christ Jesus the King of peace is the way of peace and righteousnesse And whereas you affirme That if the controversie touching Circumcision should have beene ended in the Church of Antiochia then parties must have beene Iudges Here you would seeme by this to make the whole Church of Antioch leavened with the Doctrine of Justification by Circumcision which to doe is a very great slander as it appeares by Paul Barnabas opposing them there and that Churches sending Paul and Barnabas to have the Churches advise at Ierusalem concerning this matter But whereas you affirme That the Church of Antiochia judged it unequall to decide the case among themselves I answer That they judged it unequall is more than is expressed in that place but if that should be granted it will make against you for their reason in sending the matter to Ierusalem was because the parties were members of the Church of Ierusalem as it appeares by Acts. â—5 1. 5. 24. The first verse sheweth that they were men of Iudea the 5th verse proves that they were Beleevers The 24th verse declares that they went out of the Church of Ierusalem unto them And by this you may see plainely that this Chapter above all the Chapters that I can finde proves Independencie upon your owne ground that the Church of Antiochia judged it an unequall thing for them to judge the members of the Church of Ierusalem And by this you may perceive how you have either erred not knowing the Scriptures or else you have done worse in labouring to darken the truth by evasions or false glosses Thus much for your third Reason IN your fourth Reason you affirme That the light and Law of Nature with right reason is against the Independancie of particular Churches which is an unjust affirmation as hath beene plainely proved before in the Answer to your third Reason But a few words concerning this Reason You say it is found necessary in bodies naturall that the particular members doe joyne in one for the good of the whole and that the whole being greater than a part the severall parts should be subject too and ordered by the whole All this I have granted you freely already in the Answer to your second Reason where I have plainely proved unto you that the hands of the Church are ordered by the whole body in the Ordination of the Ministery And this is according to the very Scripture it selfe for the holy Ghost speaketh so in 1 Cor. 12. Comparing the Church of God to the naturall body of a man and therefore when the hand lanceth the foote it cannot be said properly to be the action of the hand alone because the hand is set a worke by the body neither can the body set the hand a worke if it be destitute of the power for the motion of the body commeth not from the hand but the motion of the hand from the body and thus you may see I have granted your comparison And the nearer politicke bodies doe goe to this Rule the more orderly they are guided for as all the cities and country of England make up but one Kingdome and all the people in England ought to be subject to one King so all the Independant Congregations in England and out of England that are guided by the Lawes of Christ make up but one Kingdome spiritually to him that is their King Now concerning Armies though I be very ignorant in these things yet thus much I conceive that all the Armies that belong to the Kingdome ought to be under the banner of their owne King even so all the particular Congregations of Christ are to be guided by the Lawes of their owne Captaine Christ who rideth before them with his garments dipt in blood and they follow after him riding upon white horses Revel. 19. 11 12. 13 14. We reade also in the Scripture of another armie which were gathered together against the Lord and against his Christ And this armie I conceive consisteth of those Locusts which ascended out of the bottomlesse pit Rev. 9. And these as I told you before are Arch-Bishops Diocesan Bishops Deanes Prebends c. and the rest of that rable and these also have a King over them which is the Angell of the bottomlesse pit who is said to be the great red Dragon the Devill and Sathan Rev. 12. 3. 9. and 20. 2. who gave unto this armie his power and throne and great authority Rev. 13. 2. Therefore to any Counsells that are held or Canon Lawes that are enacted by any Captaine of this armie the Churches of Christ ought not to submit though they should be commanded by any Statute Law of the Kingdome for those Statute Lawes are not according to Christs Rule but ought by all Councells of State to be repealed And whereas you say It is alledged by the Separation that hold Independancie That the Magistrate of Leyden cannot governe in Delph This I hope you will grant for I am sure the Magistrates of Coventry cannot execute their office in Shrewsbury neither can the one Towne chuse Magistrates for the other and this still proves Independencie for either of these may chuse their owne and guide their owne at all times except they forfeit their Charter Now whereas you say the people alleadge for themselves that the Law of nature teacheth them to make a Covenant though there be neither precept nor practise of it in the word I suppose you misconster their sayings for the text alleadged in Thessalonians 4â— doth not prove that brotherly love was never written of in the Scripture but that it had beene so sufficiently taught of God by written precepts that it needed not to be written againe Besides I am able to prove by the Scripture that there is both precept and practise for a Church Covenant the which I will answer you in the Answer to your 6th Reason where you begge the Question Concerning what is asserted by some Divines of Scotland That in such things as are alike common to the Church and Commonwealth and have the same use in both and that whatsoever natures light directeth the one directeth the other also You know by what hath beene formerly spoken I have fully assented unto it I also agree with Amesius as farre as he agrees with the truth but to agree with you in that falsehood that the Government of independant Churches is against the light of nature and right Reason that I have denied and disproved sufficiently already Thus having answered every particular thing in this Reason that hath not beene answered already I proceede to the Fifth IN your 5th Reason you affirme That there be many Rules in Scripture that doe require the combination of Churches into Synods for proofe whereof you say that Amesius confesseth the Rules and Commands to be such as these Let all things be done to edification decently and in order Cor. 14. 26. 40. and follow after the things which make for
way it is too common for men to broach their owne pleasures for their Religion is made of mens inventions Thus much for your 10th Reason YEt furthermore for addition to these ten Reasons you adde a Question * your Qeustion is what these men would have in this Toleration Whether the number of five or sixe Congregations onely and no more Or whether the number shall be left undetermined and be free to multiply c. For answer to this I doe affirme that the number ought not to be limitted for the Churches of the New Testament were free to multiply not onely in greatnesse but also in number I say they were left free by God for the Apostles were not limitted from constituting Churches wheresoever men were brought to beleeve in Christ But say you it is their principles to breake one Church in two or three I answer I know no man that holdeth any such principle But say you it hath beene so at Amsterdam Roterdam and London To this I answer I deny not but that there may be offences taken and sometimes given which may cause men to depart one from another as Paul and Barnabas did sometimes about persons and sometimes about things and wofull experience teacheth all men that brethren are apt to fall out by the way and that Ioseph knew very well when he admonished his brethren to the contrary * But though some should be offended and could not be reconciled as the Scripture saith a brother offended is harder to be wonne than a strong citie * yet the departing of such a brother or brethâ—en cannot make that Church two Churches yet notwithstanding this may sometimes tend to the further spreading of the Gospell even as the departing of Paul and Barnabas did Not that I justifie the practise of any that are not apt to beare but that God doth sometimes bring good out of evill as it was in the selling of Ioseph * by turning it to his owne glory and the good and comfort of his people Therefore you neede not to marvell which shall be the state approved by the Magistrate because that properly there remaineth but one intire state in such cases of division as you have before mentioned By all this it appeares that it is none of our principles to breake one Church into two or three But you say if the number be left undetermined there may be many Churches in a Towne For answer whereof I must tell you that I reade in the Scriptures of no more Churches in a towne but one as in Ierusalem where there were many Converts yet I reade but of one Church Now this was in the first plantation of the Gospell but what they might increase to afterward the Scripture is silent in for any thing I know But that there may be two or three in one place as you say that seemeth unto me to be confusion except they should meete in one place for consultation which may very well be for God is the God of Order and not of confusion And I never reade in the Scripture that two Churches met together in one place for the practise of publike worship But say you we may have every where three or foure men of an opinion differing from others to goe to make a Church To this I answer If you meane by every where in every Towne of the Land I say although it should be so and though there be sixe townes in a Parish yet it will be no no confusion for the fewer they are together the lesse ground will there be of fearing them But touching divisions and subdivisions If any such thing happen it is but that which we have bin told on before The Apostles words are these They went out from us because they were not of us c. * and if evill minded men that crept in departed from Christ * we neede not to thinke much that such creepers in should depard from us also yet the disorderly going away of any as I have said before doth not make them a Church which goe away disorderly And thus I have given you an answer to your second tenth Reason * for in your Booke you have by your stile made it a Reason though you seemed at the first entrance into it to make it but a question But before you conclude the whole you subjoyne to these the Answer to five or sixe things which you would make to be their reasons and you say that they are continually alleadged by them for their toleration in this Kingdome THe first Reason you say they bring is that toleration is no more then the French and Dutch enjoy who live among us Indeede that is a very good reason for methinkes it stands with equitie that Natives borne should have as much priviledge as Strangers But you would seeme to alter the state of the case in sixe respects First That the French and Dutch Protestants have nothing nor desire nothing as contra distinct to the Protestants of France and Holland I answer if the Protestants of France and Holland have liberty of their conscience and be not at all burdened with Iewish Popish or Heathenish Observations but may be free there to worship God according to his Will revealed in his Word then they that are here amongst us neede not to seeke more liberty and I am sure the Independant men will aske no more Secondly you say that this liberty was granted by our Pioâ—s Princes in the times of persecution to the Protestants Here you crosse your first respect for if these Protestants were persecuted in France then it is certaine their Religion was different from the state of their owne Nation for you say they could not enjoy their Religion at home Furthermore you adde that it hath beene kept ever since for a refuge to the persecuted Protestants To which I answer The very like may be said of the libertie granted to the English Church in Amsterdame which hath beene a refuge for the Protestants which have beene persecuted out of England ever since But you say we may enjoy our Religion in this Land and that by the authority of the King and Parliament If it be so I pray you what is the meaning of the bleating of such cattell as your selfe which cry out dayly to the King and Parliament for the suppression of the Lords people and for the hindring of their meetings Thirdly you say The French and Dutch Churches will willingly be joyned in Government and in one way of discipline with the Kingdome if there be a Reformation Indeede if you had not added a great If here you had told a loud untruth but if this were performed that there were a Reformation according to Gods Will I doubt not but the Independant men would doe the like Fourthly you say these Churches doe not hold our principles but doe admit of appeales in great businesses I answer I have told you already and I now tell you againe that I admit of
THE IVSTIFICATION OF THE Independant CHVRCHES of CHRIST Being an Answer to Mr. EDVVARDS his BOOKE which hee hath written against the Government of CHRISTS CHVRCH and Toleration of CHRISTS Publike Worship BRIEFELY DECLARING That the Congregations of the Saints ought not to have Dependancie in Government upon any other or direction in worship from any other than CHRIST their HEAD and LAVV-GIVER By KATHERINE CHIDLEY 1 SAM. 17. 45. Thou commest unto me with a Sword and with a Speare and with a Sheild but I come unto thee in the name of the Lord of Hoasts the God of the armies of Israel whom thou hast defied IVDGES 4. 21. Then Iael Hebers wife tooke a naile of the tent and tooke an hammer in her hand and went softly unto him and smote the naile into his temples and fastened it into the ground for he was fast asleepe and weary and so he died LONDON Printed for WILLIAM LARNAR and are to be sold at his Shop at the Signe of the Golden Anchor neere Pauls-Chaine 1641. TO The CHRISTIAN READER Grace Mercy and Peace from God the Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ IT is and hath beene for a long time a Question more enquired into than well weighed Whether it be lawfull for such who are informed of the evills of the Church of England to Separate from it For my owne part considering that the Church of England is governed by the Canon Lawes the Discipline of Antichrist and altogether wanteth the Discipline of Christ and that the most of them are ignorant what it is and also doe professe to worship God by a stinted Service-Booke I hold it not onely lawfull but also the duty of all those who are informed of such evills to separate themselves from them and such as doe adhere unto them and also to joyne together in the outward profession and practise of Gods true worship when God hath declared unto them what it is and being thus informed in their minds of the knowledge of the will of God by the teaching of his Sonne Jesus Christ it is their duty to put it in practise not onely in a Land where they have Toleration but also where they are forbidden to preach or teach in the name or by the power of the Lord Jesus But Mr. Edwards with whom I have here to deale conceiving that the beauty of Christs true worship would quickly discover the Foggy darkenesse of the Antichristian devised worship and also that the glory of Christs true Discipline grounded and founded in his Word would soone discover the blacknesse and darkenesse of the Antihristian Government which the poore people of England are in bondage unto hath set his wits a work to withstand the bright comming of Christs Kingdome into the hearts of men which we are all commanded in the most absolute rule of Prayer to petition for for the turning aside whereof Mr. Edwards hath mustred up his forces even eight Reasons against the government of Christ which hee calls Independant and hath joyned unto these eight ten more which he hath made against Toleration affirming that they may not practise contrary to the course of the Nation wherein they live without the leave of the Magistrate neither judgeth he it commendable in them to aske the Magistrates leave nor commendable in the Magistrate to heare their petitions but rather seeketh to stirre up all men to disturbe their peace affirming most unjustly that they disturbe the peace of the Kingdome nay the peace of three Kingdomes which all the lands under the Kings Dominions know to be contrary nay I thinke most of the Kingdomes in Europe cannot be ignorant what the cause of the disturbance was But this is not the practise of Mr. Edwards alone but also of the whole generation of the Clergie as thou maist know Christian Reader it was the practise of the Bishop of Canterbury to exclaime against Mr Burton Doctor Bastwicke and Mr. Prynne calling them scandalous Libellers Innovators though they put their own name to that which they write and proved what they taught by divine authority and this hath beene alwayes the practise of the instruments of Sathan to accuse the Lords people for disturbing of the peace as it hath beene found in many Nations when indeede the troublers be themselves and their fathers house But in this they are like unto Athalia crying treason treason when they are in the treason themselves But for the further strengthning of his army he hath also subjoyned unto these his Answer to sixe Reasons which he saith are theirs but the forme of some of them seemeth to be of his owne making all which thou shalt finde answered and disproved in this following Treatise But though these my Answers are not laid downe in a Schollerlik way but by the plaine truth of holy Scripture yet I beseech thee have the patience to take the paynes to reade them and spare some time to consider them and if thou findest things disorderly placed laâ—our to rectifie them to thine own mind And if there be any weight in them give the glory to God but if thou feest nothing worthy attribute not the weakenesse thereof to the truth of the cause but rather to the ignorance and unskilfulnesse of the weake Instrument Thine in the Lord Jesus KATHERINE CHIDLEY THE Answer to Mr. EDVVARDS his INTRODVCTION _â— Hearing the complaints of many that were godly against the Booke that Mr. Edwards hath written and upon the sight of this his Introduction considering his desperate resolution namely that he would set out severall Tractates against the whole way of Separation I could not but declare by the testimony of the Scripture it selfe that the way of Separation is the way of God who is the author of it * which manifestly appeares by his separating of his Church from the world and the world from his Church in all ages When the Church was greater than the world then the world was to be separated from the Church but when the world was greater than the Church then the Church was to separate from the world As for instance When Caine was a member of the Church then the Church was greater than the world and Caine being discovered was exempted from Gods presence * before whom he formerly had presented himselfe c but in the time of Noah when the world was greater than the Church d then Noah and his Family who were the Church were commanded to goe into the Arke e in which place they were saved when the world was drowned f yet Ham being afterward discovered was accursed of his Father and Shem was blessed and good prophesied for Iaphat Afterward when the world was grown mightier than the Church againe then Abraham was called out of Vr of the Caldeans both from his country and from his kindred and from his fathers house g because they were Idolatâ—rs to â—â—â—ship God in Canaan Moreover afterwards Moses was seâ—â— and his brother Aaron to deliver the
very suggestion of Sathan into the hearts of our first Parents for they having a desire of some thing more then was warranted by God tooke unto them the forbidden fruit as you would have the Lords Churches to doe when you say they must take some others besides these Churches and Officers and that to interpose authoritatively and these something else you make to be Apostles Evangelists and Elders of other Churches whereas you confessed before that these are the furniture of Christs Kingdome and wee know their authoritie was limitted within the bounds of the Word of God as first If any of them would be greater he must be servant to all Secondly they were forbidden to be Lords over Gods heritage Thirdly they were commanded to teach the people to observe onely those things which Christ had commanded them And whereas you seeme to affirme that these Offices were extraordinary and ceased and yet the Churches have still neede of them You seeme to contradict your selfe and would faine cure it againe in that some other way which you say you have to supply the want of them but this other way you have not yet made known You presuppose it may be by some Sinods and Councels to make a conjunction of the whole If you meane such a Counsell as is mentioned Acts 15. 4. 22 consisting of Apostles and Elders with the whole Church then you have said no more than you have said before and that which we grant for this is still the furniture of the Kingdome but if you intend that your Counsell should consist of an armie of Arch-Bishops Diocesan Bishops Deanes Suffragans with the rest of that rabble which be for their titles names of blasphemy and such as were bred in the smoake of the pit I deny that any of these be ordained of God for they have no footing in his word therefore indeede these are a part of the fruit of the forbidden Tree which the Churches of God have taken and eaten and this seeking out inventions of their owne after that God made them righteous hath brought them into a state of Apostasie even as Ieroboams high places and Calves did the people of Israel which may plainely appeare by the Churches of Asia If these be that some other supply which you meane and have produced to helpe the Churches and Cities of God as you call them to determine for those Churches and Cities the cases of Doctrine and Discipline in stead of those many Ministers which you conceive them now to want it tends to make as they have now done a conjunction not onely of all the Churches professing one faith into one body but also of all the Armies of the Man of Sinne and so to confound the Church and the world together which the Ministers of the Gospell ought to divide by separating the precious from the vile And whereas you affirme The Independent Congregations now have but few Ministers It is very true for indeede they are but a few people and a few hands will feede a few mouths sufficiently if God provide meat But whereas you affirme That those Congregations may have no Officer at all by their owne grounds and yet be independent I thinke they conceive by those grounds the Office onely of Pastor and Teacher but not that the Church of God hath need at any time of the helpe of any other then God hath given and set in his Church which be all the Officers that are before mentioned as Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors and Teachers and to have recourse to any for counsell helpe or assistance either of Church or Ministry which is not of Christs owne were very ridiculous For it is recorded Ephe. 4. 11. 12. That he gave these for the gathering together of the Saints for the worke of the Ministry and for the edification of the body of Christ being so gathered The time they must continue is till all the Saints be in the unitie of faith The reason wherefore they were given was to keepe people from being tossed too and fro with every winde of Doctrine And these are they by whom all the body is coupled and knit together by every joynt for the furniture thereof according to the effectuall power which is in the measure of every part and receiveth increase of the body unto the edifying of it selfe in love And this is according to the promise that Christ made Matth. 28. 19. 20. to be with his Ministers in teaching his people to the end of the world And thus you may see Mr. Edwards you cannot gather from our owne words that we have neede of the helpe of any other Churches or Ministers to interpose as you unjustly affirme as it may plainely appeare by Mr. Robinsons owne words in the Justification of the Separation pag. 121. 122. These are his words It is the Stewards duty to make provision for the family but what if he neglect this duty in the Masters absence Must the whole family starve yea and the wife also Or is not some other of the family best able to be employed for the present necessity The like he saith concerning the government of a Ship of an Armie and of Common wealths alluding to the Church of Christ And further expresseth that as a private Citizen may become a Magistrate so a private member may become a Minister for an action of necessity to be performed by the consent of the rest c. Therefore it appeares plainely by all that hath binsaid that the Churches of Christ may be truely constituted according to the Scripture and subsist a certaine time without Pastor and Teacher and enjoy the power of Christ amongst themselves having no dependancie upon any other Church or Churches which shall claime Authority or superiority over them And thus much for your first Reason NOw in your second Reason which runneth upon the calling of the Ministry you affirme That the government of the Independent Congregations is not of divine institution Which I utterly denie and will prove it by disproveing the following Instances by which you affirme to prove it Whereas you affirme That their Independencie forces them to have Ministers without Ordination I Answer it is a plaine case by the foregoing Answer to your first Reason that you speake untruely for their practise is there made knowne to be otherwise and if you will still affirme that they have not power so to practise you will thereby deny the truth of the Scriptures for the Apostles were commanded to teach the Churches to observe all things whatsoever Christ had commanded them But Christ commanded the Apostles to ordaine Elders in every Church by election therefore the Apostles taught the Churches to ordaine Elders by Election also And whereas you bid us produce one instance if we can for an ordinary Officer to be made without Ordination it is needlesse for we whom you call Independant strive for no such thing as you have proved it plainely out of Mr. Robinsons Booke Apol. Chap.
1. 18. to which I send you to learne better Further you alleadge That if they be ordained it is by persons who are not in office Now if you meane they have no office because they are not elected ordained and set apart by the Clergie to some serviceable adminiâ—â—ation I pray you tell me who ordained the Apostles Prophets and Evangelists to their worke or Ministry If you will say they were ordained of God I will grant it and doe also affirme that God hath promised the supply of them to the end of the world as before hath beene mentioned from Ephe. 4. As also it appeares by Pauls charge to Timothy 2 Tim. 2. 2. That what things he had heard of him among many witnesses the same he should commit to faithfull men who should be able to teach others also but I verily doe beleeve that as Titus so Timothy heard of Paul that Elders must be ordained by Election in every city and that Titus was as much bound to communicate the things unto others which he had learned of Paul as Timothy was and Timothy we know was to teach faithfull men and those faithfull men were to teach others those things that they had heard of Timothy among which things Ordination was one as it was delivered to Titus and we are not to doubt of Timothius faithfulnesse in the declaring of this part of his message more than the rest but if those to whom Timothy delivered it were not faithfull in the discharge of their duty but that in due time the Ordinances might possibly grow out of use as the Churches did by little and little apostate yet that hinders not but that it was still written in the Scripture that the generations to come might recover againe the right use of the Ordinances when God should by his Spirit direct them to know the same Moreover I affirme that all the Lords people that are made Kings and Priests to God have a free voyce in the Ordinance of Election therefore they must freely consent before there can be any Ordination and having so consented they may proceede to Ordination notwithstanding they be destitute of the Counsell or assistance of any neighbour Church as if there were no other Churches in the Land but onely one company of beleevers joyned together in fellowship according to Christs institution The promise made in the 14th of Iohn 12. 13. is made unto them where Christ said The workes that he did they should doe â—sâ— that whatsoever they should aske in his name that he would do for theâ— that the Father may be glorified and that the Spirit of truth should â—â—ide with them for ever And that he should teach them all things and bring all things unto their remembrance as it is said in the following verses of the same Chapter This you may see is the portion of beleevers and they that have this portion are the greatest in the world and many of them are greater than one but many joyned together in a comely order in the fellowship of the Gospell according to the Scriptures are the greatest of all and therefore have power to ordaine and to blesse their Ministers in the name of the Lord Thus the lesser is blessed of the greater Now Mr. Edwards I hope you will confesse that you spake unadvisedly when you affirmed The maintenance of Independensie was the breaking of Gods Ordinance and violating of that Order and constant â—â—y of Ministers recorded in the Word To this I Answer that if the Church doe elect one he must be elected out of some more those that are not elected may be as able to blesse the Church in the name of the Lord as he therefore one of these who are not elected being chosen by the whole Church to blesse him in the name of the Lord whom the Church hath ordained is the hand of the whole who are greatest of all and so a sufficient Officer for that worke which hee is put a part to doe Thus you may see Mr. Edwards that we doe not hold Ordination extraordinary and temporary neither doe we hold it the least of Gods Institutions for we have respect unto them all But that nothing in matter of Order hath so cleare and constant a practise as this as you do affirme and also say the whole frame of Church and Discipline hath not so much ground in the word for it as this I deny and doe affirme that not onely this but all Gods Ordinances have as much ground and footing in Gods Word also Yet notwithstanding you say that Calvin confesseth that there is no expresse precept concerning the imposition of hands Hath the imposition of hands no footing in Gods Word and yet hath not all the forme of Gods Worship so much footing as it Here Mr. Calvin and you will now pin all the forme of Church and Discipline upon unwritten verities Further you rehearse confusedly the opinion of Zanchius to strenghen yours who say you would have the example of the Apostles and ancient Church to be more esteemed of and to be instead of a command I pray you how doe you know it to be their example if it be not written And whereas you alledge that Zanchius saith it is no vaine Ceremony but the holy Spirit is present to performe things inwardly which are signified by this Ordinance outwardly I have granted you that already where I affirme that the Church having the Spirit of God hath power by an instrument of her owne chusing to blesse the party to his worke in the name of the LORD and I am also bound to beleeve that God will accompany that his owne Ordinance which is performed by them outwardly with his owne Spirit inwardly to furnish the party so blessed by them with the knowledge of the Scripture which is able to furnish the man of God to every part of his duty And thus you may see that we have not departed from Christs way nor gone any other way in things concerning his House and Officers then he hath directed And whereas you demand for what cause Paul left Titus at Crâ—â—te I answer that I have told you before that it was to communicate the things unto others which hee had learned whereof Ordination was one And no doubt but hee declared the same to faithfull men that they might teach others also therefore he was there employed in preaching of the Gospell as well as if he had gone preaching with Paul The next thing you goe upon is the triall of the gifts of Ministers and this you attribute to them which have the greatest measure of the Spirit for you say Examination belongeth to the most skilfull and they who have most authority All these things are well allowed of by us for who hath a greater measure of the Spirit than beleevers and who hath more skill than he that hath beene trained up in the Schoole of Christ and hath learned this Lesson to be obedient to his Master Christ in keeping of
all his commandements and who hath greater authority upon the earth then they that are visible Saints and what makes men visible Saints if not the manifestation of their obedience to God the Father and Christ his sonne in the practise of all his Ordinances and not to have some other Presbyters present with them to assist them as you affirme for by these other Presbyters I know not yet who you meane And whereas you say that the Church may be led into errours or kept in a low estate by unfit Pastors and Elders I answer It is a cleare truth as wofull experience teacheth us who live here in the Land of England And whereas you affirme that visible Saints cannot ordaine Officers because they have no gifts of prayer I Answer Here you make prayer the Ordination of Ministers And whereas you say they are not able to conceive prayer Here you give the holy Ghost the lie for Beleevers have received the Spirit of adoption to cry Abba Father But say you they cannot conceive prayer according to the action in boâ—â— Here you would seeme to make beleevers which have the Spirit of God to leade them into all truths more voide of common reason then men that have but gifts of nature Againe you say they have not gifts to make publike exhortation and admonition To which I answer If they had first knowledge to feele the want of a Pastor and also divers able men out of whom to elect and ordaine a Pastor then they out of whom this person is chosen are able to exhort and to admonish for he that hath not the gift of teaching may have the gift of exhortation againe the man that undertaketh to teach others ought to be taught by God and likewise to be able by sound Doctrine to withstand the Gainesayers but a man may give good exhortations and that publikely that is not able to withstand the Gainesayers by â—ound Doctrine By this you may see the Church of God can never be without some Ministers except it be according to that spoken by Zachaâ—iah in the day of very small things indeede when God shall take away their Ministers by death prison or exile for seeing the Churches were planted by Ministers of Gods owne ordaining therefore they were not without Ministers in the very beginning and still the Churches are planted by the Ministeriall power of the Lord Jesus which cannot be exercised without fit instruments Yet that they must want the word preached or Sacraments administred till they have Pastors and Teacher in Office is yet to be proved but that page of Mr. Robinsons which hath beene alledged before is sufficient for this present purpose against you even to prove that the family must not be unprovided for either for the absence or neglect of a Steward But now you seeme to insinuate an affirmation or a supposition I cannot well tell whether That a ruleing Elder may be destitute of the guift of discering and seeme to imply that if he be destitute then all the Church must be destitute if there be no more Officers then be Here you would faine make the ruling Elders the eyes of the Church and then all the rest of the body must be blinde and so unfit to have any hand in election and also voide of the Spirit of Grace to discerne the gifts by though it hath beene proved unto you before that she is the greatest of all having the Spirit of God to leade her into all truth being the Spouse of Christ and endowed with all his riches gifts and donations And thus you still deny the Authority ability of the Church giving to the persons in office all power and deserning But this is indeede according to your practise here in England but not according to the minde and Spirit of God And for the neighbour Churches Counsell I deny not but that it may be imbraced and the Saints have cause to praise God for any helpes of Gods ordaining But if they want the helpe of a neighbour Church to Counsell them or neighbour Ministers to direct them yet if they be a Church of Jesus Christ they have as hath beene said before power among themselves to elect and ordaine their owne Officers as also the Spirit of discerning whereby to try their gifts and yet be farre from falling into that evill which they complaine against in the Episcopacie namely for one man to have the sole power of Ordination By all these particulars you may clearely see all your pretended proofes and former assertions disproved as I promised you in the entrance of this my answer to your second Reason So that these two first Reasons being as I conceive the greatest Champions which you have sent out in this skirmage are now both slaine and made voide of all the life that ever was in them for they were made most of suppositions and of things that appeared unto you by likelihood without any ground from the Scriptures and of some other thing than Gods Word allowed and of some triviall affirmations which were not grounded upon any truth of Gods Word Now these two being thus turned aside by one of the meanest of all the Army of Jesus Christ you may justly feare that all the rest of your souldiers will run away wounded IN your third Reason You say it is not to be thought that Christ would institute such a Government of his Church which affords no helpe nor allowes no way or remedy for innocent persons that are wronged Which thing I grant to be very true but touching the means and helpes which you pleade for that is some other Synods to appeale unto I tell you I know not what Synods you meane But this I affirme that there are no larger Synods to be kept to settle Church differences then the comming together of the Ministers and Brethren as it is mentioned in the 15th of the Acts which I have granted you in my Answers to your former Reasons And whereas you strive for appeales I Answer It is the rule of Christ that if one brother doe trespasse against another and if the brother offending will not be reclaimed by the private admonition of the brother offended he is to be admonished by one or two other brethren with him but if he will not heare them the brother offended is to tell the Church and if he will not heare the Church then he is not to be accounted a brother but as a Heathen man and a Publican if not as a brother then out of the fellowship then if the wrong be any personall injury as oppression or fraud or any other sinne of these natures the Law is open where he may appeale for Justice to the Magistrate in any part of the Kingdome where-ever he liveth but if it be a matter of scandall as if hee should be a drunkard or incontinent or the like then he hath sufficient remedy when such a one is cast out of his society By this you may see