could not see that in Chrysostome vvhich Chrysostome hath not Dering What M. Harding séeth only M. Harding knoweth But what a fonde vntruthe héere is quoted that I trow euery mā may witnesse Thus saith M. Iuel M. Harding séeth this is but a slender proofe master Harding saith he can not sée it in Chrysostome In déede that is true who saith it is in Chrysostome He was too well learned to make such lose argumēts I would faine heare of some of M. Hardings friends how he could excuse this vntruthe and what it meaneth The B. of Saris. M. Harding hath deuised a way how two priests saying their Masses in diuers countreis may yet Communicate together in breaking bread Harding The .214 vntruthe I doe not say they can communicate in breaking bread Dering This vntruthe was numbred once before Reade the .107 vntruthe There are M. Hardings plaine woords What he meaneth héere againe to recken this vntruthe saue onely for numbers sake no man I trow knoweth And yet how fondly and with what a blinde distinction he dothe it it shall not be a misse to tell thée He saith héere they doe not breake bread together But saith he they participate of one bread and communicate together be the distaunce betwéene them neuer so great This plain saying he hath in his Reioinder intermingled with a few other woords Read the place Now if maister Harding do thus vnderstand M. Iuel as if he ment that two priestes many miles a sunder might breake the same loafe that imagination is too grose and no wise man wil alow it If he meane any spirituall breaking then his owne words alowe the saying for good then this vntruthe proueth nothing against M. Iuel but reproueth M. Harding either of foly or else of falshoode The B. of Saris. Lay people wemen sicke folkes and boyes are brought in to proue his Masse Harding The .215 vntruthe They are not brought to proue the Masse Dering Maister Harding is very nigh at an ende his number is not yet ful Therfore being enforced to take vntruthes as he may he is lighted on suche a place as he could not light on a worse This vntruthe is reckened .v. times before the .87.101.126.128.129 and now the .215 It had bene requisite to haue ben better that should serue so many turnes The B. of Saris. Heere be brought in a company of petie Doctors all of doubtfull credite Harding The .216 vntruthe They be not of doubtfull credite Dering Now we be at the bottome of these vntruths M. Harding is faine to draw out dregges and all There was inough said before of Amphilochius and his fellowes and some of them M. Harding had quite turned and that he would neither defend them nor condemne them But now necessity doth make him breake his promise rather than he shold lose an vntruth they must be all of good credite againe They that list let them so accompt them The B. of Saris. This matter is made good by visions dreames and fables Harding The .217 vntruthe I proue it not by dreames Dering Héere saith M. Harding this tale of Amphilochius is neither dreame nor fable but it appeared vnto him good aucthoritie Yet he saith before that whether it be a vaine fable or a true story he wil not determine wel let this contrarietie goe Whether it be a fable or no iudge thou Here further as touching maister Hardings Philosophy in so exacte defining of dreames and visions bicause he taketh vpon him to control a better Philosopher than him self And in this word dreame wil haue the force of his vntruthe saying it was a vision and no dreame which S. Basil saw that distinction is more curious than learned for the two Gréeke woords 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is a dreame and a vision doe bothe signifie those things which be true vnlesse he wil say that a dreame dothe signifie more largely then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or somnium and yet if it doe a vision must néedes be a dreame though euery dreame be not a vision so this vntruthe by no meanes can be iustified The B. of Saris. He hath made searche for his Masse at Alexandria in Aegipt at Antioche in Syria at Caesarea in Cappadocia a thousande miles beyonde Chrystendome Harding The .218 vntruthe These cities are not a thousande miles beyond Christendome Dering This vntruthe was not worthe twise numbring Read the 183. vntruthe The B. of Saris. Bicause he had no hope to spede in townes he hathe sought out little churches in the countrey Harding The .219 vntruthe I haue proued that the Masse was celebrated in townes Dering This vntruthe is soone gathered but when M. Harding dothe proue it not only maister Iuel but all other that impugne their superstitious vanities will soone subscribe In the meane season he must not builde vp his vntruthes with suche sayings as we openly maintaine bothe in worde and wryting The B. of Saris. Likewise S. Paule willed one to waite for an other in the holy ministration Harding The .220 vntruthe These words are not ment of the ministration of the Sacrament Dering These words of S. Paule goe very nighe M. Hardings priuate Masse and therfore it behoueth him for his Masses sake to stande stiffely in it that they belong not vnto the ministration of the Lords supper For if they doe belong vnto it then no doubt M. Hardings Masse is a sinke of iniquitie that is so contrary vnto S. Paules woords Now for better discussing of this bicause in trying it this priuate Masse shall be better knowne let vs examine S. Paules woordes Thus he saithe Wherfore my brethren when ye come together to eate tary one for an other This saith M. Harding is to be vnderstand of certaine Churche feastes which they had called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and not of the Communion and as though this were not said with shame inoughe he saith in an other place that in that chapter S. Paule dothe not rebuke them for the manner of ministring this Sacrament but for their abusing of their church feasts Now for proofe of this interpretation he onely alleageth the bare names of Chrysostome and Theodoretus and this is al he can bring Read Reioinder fol. 306. Now let vs sée againe what on the other side may be said to proue that S. Paule meaneth of the ministration of the Sacrament And this we may sée bothe by the testimonie of all the old Doctors and most vndoubtedly by examination of the place it selfe Athanasius applieth all that place to the Communion in plaine woords Occumenius saith only the Lords supper is there spoken of and vpon this place inuicem expectate tary one for an other Thus he writeth Itaque Quamobrem Ne indigne corpus domini sanguinem participare probemini Therefore saith the Apostle Wherefore Least you should be proued to participate the Lordes body and bloud vnworthely By this Doctor he receiueth vnworthily that
victorie Such Hercules buskins he can applie to little leggs and make so great vaunts where himselfe is furthest deceyued The B. of Saris. The name of Masse is seldome or neuer found among the Catholyke fathers Hardyng The .17 vntruth It is often found among the olde writers Dering Note good Reader how this man feareth not to note vntruthes so his number may grow This word is seldom found â—aith Maister Iuell in the catholike fathers it is found often sayth he in olde writers as though who soeuer were auncient he were straite way Catholyke Himselfe hath remoued in the 21. vntruth certaine commentaries of Ierom. And I must certifie thée there be other which notwithstanding their age yet haue no more authoritie than olde Aesopes fables Then notwithstanding Maister Hardings note of olde wryters yet M. Iuels saying of the catholike fathers may be true But I will not vrge Maister Hardings wordes admit he ment no guile in the naming of olde wryters How proueth he this vntruth He bringeth in .ix. fathers and counsels in which this worde Masse is found he sayth he could bring thrée mo that is .xii. in all The olde bookes which are written are almost infinite so in .12000 bookes he can finde that he seeketh for but .12 times yet sayth he it is found often Maister Iuell graunteth it is found somtimes Such vntruthes wil soone shame the controller Now this worde Masse or Missa least it shoulde beguile thée for that it is sometime in catholike fathers I will brieflye declare vnto thée what it is and in what sence it is found That which maister Harding calleth so ofte the Masse as Basils Masse Chrisostomes Masse and Iames his Masse in Gréeke it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth an open or common function and this signification it hath as well in prophane writers as in the scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sayth Aristotle he is occupied in the administration of the commoÌ„ wealth and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to execute common offices So 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the open worshippinges and seruice of their Gods In like sort it is vsed in the scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as they were openlye preaching and Saint Paule sayth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that I might be an open minister among the Gentiles and this is proued by the Etimologie or true explication of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quasi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he that hath common businesse in hande Hereby it appeareth that eyther M. Hardings Masse is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and so neyther Chrisostome nor Iames nor Basil nor the other Gréeke authors euer sayde or named Masse or if they did the verye worde doth quite ouerthrow the priuate Masse As touching the Latine worde Missa we haue to learne it as the fathers sayde remissa for remissio so also they sayd missa for missio that is a sending away when in the primatiue Church such as were Nouices in christian fayth were sent away from the true beleuers which was before the communion And this appeareth by Saint Augustine where he sayth Ecce post sermonem fit missa cathecumenis manebunt fideles venietur ad locum orationis Beholde after the sermon the Nouices are dimissed the faythfull shall abyde and shall go vnto the communion For so maister Harding doth witnesse that orationis in Saint Augustine doth signifie and in déede in this place it is true Here haue we thrée especiall things to note the craft and subtilitie of Maister Harding and his friend Stapleton who both as it may be well thought vpon conference haue aledged the same places oute of doctors and councels where this worde Misâ—a is found and yet neyther haue mencioned this place of Augustine If they knewe it not they are not of that reading they pretend if they knew it it is to maliciously concealed Secondarily there abode no more in the Church but such as were communicants So this late gazing at a popish Masse was not then in vse Thirdly they did all communicate and then where was priuate Masse So this gorgious shewe to bleare the simple peoples eyes with the antiquitie of this worde Masse is an inuincible argument whereby pryuate Masse doth fall Examine the places that they themselues bring thou canst not wreast any likelihoode of priuate Masse out of them Yet this is moreouer to be noted that within .380 yeares after Christ the worde was neuer named in any probable author whereby it sufficiently appeareth that it was neuer knowne in Christes time nor in his Apostles after him And thus much of this worde Masse The B. of Saris. Clement was very lately found in the yle of Candie by one Carolus Capellius a Venetian written in Greeke and in these Countreis neuer heard of nor seene before Harding The .19 vntruth It hath beene seene before Dering Here Maister Harding committeth thrée great faults the one to charge maister Iuel with an vntruth when he alleageth Peter Crabs authority an other for misconstruing those wordes which are plaine and common the thirde for clipping of Maister Iuels wordes For where he wryteth it was neuer séene in these couÌ„treis Maister Harding quoteth his vntruth it hath beene séene But considering these poore shiftes wherevnto maister Harding is driuen I will graunt these wordes to be maister Iuels that it was neuer séene Who knoweth not that neuer here signifieth of long time or seldom if it had béene neuer séene howe could it haue bene written These grosse gatherings in so fine a wit néedes must sauour of malice It is the phrase of al laÌ„guages 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Saith Achilles they did neuer wast my fertile fieldes in Pthia yet not many yeres before were great iniuries done by the Troians eueÌ„ in Achilles countrey So Agamemnon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 O prophet of harmes thou neuer yet toldest me pleasant things Yet it were much for M. Harding to say Calchas pleased not Agamemnon when he foretolde what tyme Troie should be destroyed In lyke maner sayth Euripides 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 There was neuer good son of an euill father yet was Ezechias good of wicked Ahaz So in the common prouerbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more auncient than the worlde we meane great continuance We say the same in Latine NunquaÌ„ tam palestricus praetor There was neuer such a wrastling chiefe Iustice meaning very seldome And in our english I neuer sawe such an other But what we meane by it that in déede was neuer doubted of neyther is Maister Harding so simple that he knoweth it not but he had rather speake against his owne knowledge then say nothing against Maister Iuell This is ynough to any indifferent reader to shewe that these vntruthes are but wranglings But read the replie and thou must néedes confesse it were thou neuer so parciall For Maister Iuell himselfe alleageth Leo Gelasius Bessarion which disalow this booke and how could that be if
Fishermen some Tentmakers some Husbandmen and suche like this contrarietie of Apostles could neuer be in Christes Apostles Then by like M. Hardings Church that is faine to make them Apostles hath some wants And yet bicause M. Iuell sayd thus much he falleth out in a rage that his Challenge was foolish his Replie without learning his arrogancie much his Gospell false his weakenes discouered his modestie stained and I wot not what A heape of shamelesse lies in halfe a side of a lease The Challenge was foolish yet Harding Dorman Rastell Marshall Stapleton Heskins Saunders and Shacklocke doe sweate these .iiii. or .v. yeares about it and are neuer the neare The Replie was vnlearned Yet M. Harding in a yeare could reioyne but with a few leaues and that non absque theseo Summysts or Glosesearchers euerie one doth helpe a little Concerning these other sclaunders his pride can not be much that alwayes commendeth his aduersaries cunning His Gospell is not false that embraceth nothing but the Gospell of Christ. His weakenesse is litle that is vpholden with so manye authorities His modestie is not stained whose enimie euill reporteth him Nor his bragges are manie where the victorie abideth Therfore this filthie fome of such vncomely railing doth rather bewray the sicknes of the wryters mynde then reproue the person against whom it is vttered Harding ¶ That you loked fiercely and shoke your sword terribly I sayd it not as you reporte me c. from thence to digresse to the odious vpbraiding vs with crueltie c. it was more spitefull then pertinent to the matter Dering Maister Harding much blameth the racking of this example but he may not nowe well discemble his meaning His owne writinges and Maister Shacklocks old withered trée doe showe howe gladly they woulde bring vs into hatred oâ— bloudinesse and when they secretly insinuate it is it not wisdome to bring open remedies They may not well discharge them selues of such secrete doinges Maister Harding was but little gone in this Epistle when he would closely séeme to be Appelles But his painting was not singular and therfore I passed it ouer After that he hath saide in this matter what he can he commeth to his woonted rhetorike of Runnagates Apostataes Forsakers and Rebels as if he were talking of him selfe or Staphylus and such companions But Maister Hardings mouth is no slaunder our constancy is yet vnblamable He blameth much our vncourtesy towarde our aduersaries but he sheweth not wherin we do so euill entreat them We neither tye them vp in cheines nor shut them vp in cole houses Perhaps he will saye they are in â—uraunce Yet that is but his own false surmise Their great good lyking is a token of little hard handling As touching these manye yffes of the beginning of Maister Iuels profession they néede no aunswere What he ment a godlye man maye iudge in seing gods blessing of his proceadinges He findeth not hym selfe guilty with Core Dathan and Abiron in gods mercies he feareth not the fall of Lucifer And as you Maister Harding haue regarde to the saluation of your soule for Christes sake he requireth you to enter into your owne conscience If promotion made you shrinke remember Ieroboam that made Israel to synne If shame make you coÌ„tinue remember Pharao that would not yéeld to Moyses What euer kepeth you back from the true ioye of Gods gospell remember Iulianus You shall crye in time vicisti Galilee O Galilean thou hast the victory Harding ¶ That you were enforced therto by our importunity as you say who can beleue you For who of vs al troubled you Who prouoked you Who did so much as pull you by the sleue Had you not before shut vs vp c. Dering Where he denieth that M. Iuell was prouoked by their importunitie and thereto rayseth a heape of his idle questions what priuate cause he had I know not Of their great importuniti all the world is witnesse What if M. Bonner were in prison that had tied vp so many What if testie M. Watson held his peace Or what if M. Harding were quiet Are there no moe enimies of Gods truth but they Was all at rest Was al husht Was not the world dayly seduced by their popery Was not Christes merites darkned Antichrist stil fighting for his seate in the temple And will not this importunitye stirre vp a good Byshop I pray you M. Harding I speake it not to vpbraide you but to admonish Gods people what if your watchmen were blinde and had no knowledge what if they were domme Dogs and they would not barke what if they laye a sléepe and delited in sléeping doo you thinke therefore that the vigilant pastor of Sarisburie coulde sée the woolfe come and runne awaye sée the théefe and kéepe silence Your great murderer Hosius was buste your Sorbonists wer occupied your Louanists at their labour this might moue the byshop though a few of you foxes dyd not much trouble y â— fold dissemble not your knowledge for shame anie longer confesse this was great cause both of griefe and vehemency Hardyng You finde fault with my want of modesty for shewyng forth your bosting for my part I pray God I be neuer found more faulty for want of modestie Dering Maister Harding excuseth him selfe that he hath not passed modestie and prayeth God that therein hée be neuer founde more faultie but whosoeuer readeth ouer his writing and raketh vp togither the scourings of his modestie shall finde such a heape of railings that if he yet feare going ouer them it is very true that he that is once past shame is like to proue notoriously impudent But it skilleth not much how immodest he be in writing that defendeth such a shamelesse cause Hardyng ¶ If the truth you meane were manifest and knowen why could not Luther see it by whose spectacles you haue espied many pointes of your Gospel by his minde the truth of you that be Caluinistes is not manifest Dering Now M. Harding falleth into his common place of Luther and Caluine and those men the more excellent their vertues were the more opprobriousâ—ye he reporteth them I could haue wished in the one lesse vehemencie But it was a froward world when he first preached the people coulde not be wonne with entreatie The other may be a spectacle in al posteritie to behold the great mercies of God that endued his sinfull creatures with so rare vertues He preached so often and wrote so many bookes that if the truth bare not witnesse it might séeme incredible He expounded the scriptures in such vertue of the spirite giue me leaue to speake as I thinke seing all is to the glorye of God that neither S. Augustine nor S. Ierom the great lightes of Gods church haue euer done the like But let such men rest in the peace of the Church Maister Hardings reuilings can not blemish their good names After this he expoundeth his meaning in calling Maister Iuell Goliah which he saith he
his sonne Christ quis vestrum arguet me de peccato which of you can conuince me of sinne Who euer defended a matter c. Your doctours at Oxford against these reuerend Fathers D. Cranmer D. Ridley and M. Latimer Who euer in so weighty pointes c. You in your aunswer and héere in defence of your modesty And yet this ioly fellowe c. I will speake nothing of this modesty For vndoubtedly it is far spent But this is a Popes disputation to aske vs first our mindes and then to conclude whether we wil or no. But fare you well Maister Harding nowe you are off the stage giue vs leaue a little to speake to the audience Marke christiā reader this mans intemperancy He hath purposed to defend his vaine and beastly Religion and thou shalt sooner ouerturne the whole estate of his lyfe then bring him from it Hée hath woorshipped so long in the church of Rome that Elizeus the Prophet cannot call him out of it He careth not what he saith nor how boldly he affirmeth and he is not ignorant of this him selfe but he is so far of from hauing any thing for him selfe that he thinketh he must not onely speake against vs but euen against nature against the warnings of reason against the opinion of al men against the scriptures of God He defēdeth his modestie with mostim̄odest woordes He shameth not to saye Maister Iuels Booke is foolish which is a looking glasse of learning to al that vnderstand it He saith his arguments be péeuish which yf they be not grounded in Gods woorde I require thée beleue them not He saith he spareth not the maiesty of the holy ghost and Christ our Lord and yet in so great blasphemy bringeth no one coniecture And how doeth he handle all this With so good and chosen woordes so handsome colours so whole sentences that although he hath made warre against God and his Church yet he séemeth to speake déepe diuinity God giue vs grace to beware of him He is a blinde leader of the blinde But he is come againe let vs sée what he hath more to say Harding ¶ You would haue men thinke this were Vetus Comoedia No M. Iuell it is Zelus Dei it not Vetus Comoedia The imitation of Vetus Comoedia hath euer bene takē for a badge of men of your profession c. You mocke and scoffe at our persons as the naughty boyes of Bethel dyd at Elizeus but at our auncient Religion at the church of Christ. Yet wee curse you not in the name of our Lord as he did those euill nourtered children that ye might be toren of Beares c. With your wicked doctrine you haue so brought the people from God as now for a great number they may seeme not to halt on both sides but to be fallen downe right Yet doe we not call for fire to discend from heauen and burne you vp Neither doe we stirre the people to take you and destroye you as Elias bad the people to destroye the false Prophetes Dering Haue you not left iarring of this vnmodest string Belike it is very pleasant musicke in your eares This manner of behauiour say you is not Vetus comoedia no open naming of men vpon stages What is it then It is Zelus Dei I may not iudge directly what you are within Paule was a persecutour in defending their traditions but sure your zeale is not according to knowledge you loue darknesse more thē light and therfore you dwell in ignorance you seeke not after wisdome as after siluer and gold and therfore you finde hir not You saye we scoffe at you and your Religion as the. c. At your persons we scoffe not God is our witnesse we wéepe to see the temple of the holye Ghost to be the temple of an Harlot it gréeueth vs that in the Image of God shoulde appeare Sathans vglye visage And you want not our prayers for your returne But your auncient Religion we hate and abhorre it It is so olde that it is rotton and one péece wil not hange with an other it is a smoke that at the flaming out of gods woord is vanished it is a stinking mist it is ouerblowen with the swéete windes of the holy spirit And therfore doo not blame vs if we cannot abide it Your Religion is as good as your vaunt is true when you commende your selues for clemencie aboue Elizeus or Elias You saye you praye not that we maye be torne of Beares nor that fyre from heauen maye come downe to destroye vs. What your prayer is inwardely I say it oft I know not But for your good will towarde vs if you coulde commaund either beastes or Elements we should not escape neither Beare nor fyre The aboundance of our bloode crieth out to heauen that you are as mercifull as the woolfe or the Tyger But O passi grauiora dedit deus his quoque finem his name be praysed for euermore Harding ¶ Certaine false preachers for their great impudency and for that they barked at the light of the Gospel as dogs do at the Moone by night S. Paule called dogges and bad the Philippians beware of them c. Dering Here Maister Harding would couer his vngodly demeanour with the cloke of godlynes for that S. Paule called certaine vngodly teachers doggs and euill labourers and therfore he woulde gladlye saye as much to Maister Iuell But who were they that thus barked at the Gospell Uerily men of their owne Religion For thus saith S. Paule Beware of doggs beware of euill workers beware of concysion For we are the circumcysion that worshipp God in the spirite and reioyce in Christ Iesu and haue no confidence in the fleshe But O the wretched Church of that confounded Babylon what one-péece hath it of this spirituall woorship that is to reioyce in Christ alone and haue no confidence in the fleshe Do they not make Angels their mediators Do they not call vpon Paule and Peter Doe they not say that their whoorish Masse is propitiatory Doe they not byd men go range a pilgrimage for the greater meades Doe they not say ther is a merit of our workes And what say they not that leaneth to flesh and bloode This ▪ is the barking doctrine this is the tearing renting in peces of Christ his merites S. Augustine saith non gratia ex merito sed meritum ex gratia Grace commeth not of deserte but deserte commeth of grace Let them leaue off their iesting at Maister Iuells worship it is no tyme to speake euill of authority Euen in such language the hart is sorowfull and the ende of that myrth is heauinesse Harding ¶ Ieremie calleth them of Iewry Staliens for that they neyed eche one at an others wyfe Ezechiel calleth the false Prophetes of Israel Foxes so Christ him selfe named Herod a Fox Dering Yet M. Harding procéedeth in the long space of his owne modestie and as he must néedes doe alledging
and hys brother yet he would néedes be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So M. Harding wyll say néedes he is modest but his woord is no warrant Concerning M. Iuell whether his greatest grace be in scoffing I maruaile that he now doth aske the question Doth not M. Rastall his owne dearlyng confesse he hath a rare gift in writing Though his aucthoritie be otherwise very light yet against M. Harding it is very weightie And why will not M. Harding confesse as much Is he not as well learned as M. Rastall Yes sure but malitia mutauit intellectum malice hath chaunged his vnderstanding Hardyng ¶ If ye seeke to be reuenged on me for that I haue bene so bold as to aunswere your vaine Chalenge and by this Reioynder to confute part of your colourable Reply either hold your peace or speake so as you be not fouÌ„d a lyer if you can For truely by your euill speaking of me you shal but encrease the heape of my felicitie c. Dering Maister Harding would haue the world to thinke we are offended with his writing And in déede we are so and take it as a scourge of God to kéepe vs in humilitie and a manacing against our sinful liues that as oft as we se their bookes we should repent vs of the idolatries wherein we haue beene drowned But he in his impiety runneth desperatly forward and appealeth vnto Gods iudgement with such securitye as appeareth as Flauinius at Thrasimenus or Varro at Cannae went to méete with Hannibal Well may I vse this similitude sith all his doings are nothing else but gentillitie Maister Harding doth accuse vs of euill speaking before we offeÌ„d him Where he saith he is sure he standeth vpon a sure grouÌ„d let him take héede he be not wise in his own conceit Not euery one that saith Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdome of heauen but he that doth the will of God They are not all true worshippers that go vp to Ierusalem but suche onely as woorship in spirite and veritie The Iewes with as great a confidence sayde they had one Father which was God but Christ aunswered they were of their father the Deuil Saint Paule speaketh of the wicked that gloried so of God but hée sayth by such meanes the true God is dishonored The Scribes and the Pharises bragged muche of Moyses but Christ sayd the same Moyses should be their accuser All Israel dyd euer boast they were the children but yet onely in Isaac shal the séede be called Euen so these braggings of Christ séeing he followeth not his Testament shall be his owne confusion But by like he feared this that here I do aunswere and therfore with a vaine occupacion he thought best to preuent it and make a false clayme him selfe to that sayinge of Christ. And to proue it doth alleadge that weary argument of their Romish church which bicause it is so oft alleadged it shall not be amisse to speake somwhat of it to way a litle the difference of the two Churches The Churche of Christ is not bounde to any mans traditions it is not tyed to any certaine place the somâ— hath made vs frée and therfore we are frée in déede Neither in Ierusalem nor in this hill the true worshippers doo worship but in spirite and veritye But the Church of Rome doeth hang vpon olde rotten postes they obserue monethes and dayes that they maye be made frée they runne into cloisters and monckery for to worship and serue God The Church of Christ is not inclosed in any certain cuntry the Apostels are gone into al the world to preach the Gospell who soeuer doth beleue and is baptised shalbe saued But the church of Rome doth condemne them that goe one foote from hir she pronounceth them accursed that wil not drinke of hir adulteries and without hir she saith ther is no helth The Church of Christ wil not heare a strangers voice she will not beleue an angell from heauen that shall preach any other doctrine then Christ hath deliuered the scripture is the rule of hir whole religioÌ„ The church of Rome doth harken after vnwritten verities she giueth credit vnto dreames and visions she saith the Scriptures maye be drawen into diuers senses and will not allowe them but after hir fansied interpretations The church of Christ is buylt vpon the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets Christ him selfe being the heade corner stone she doth receiue with méekenesse the woorde that is ingraffed in hir and doth confesse that it can saue our soules The church of Rome is buylt vppon mens deuises and for insufficiencye of the word adioyneth pilgrimages and pardons sacrifices for quick and dead Masses and purgatoryes Inuocation of Saints worshipping of Images and a thousand such trumperies and will not confesse that all is written which is necessary to saluation The Church of Christ doth acknowledge that by Christ alone she is saued by Christ alone she is deliuered from hir vaine conuersation and from the bondage of sin not by the woorks of righteousnes which she had done but according to his mercy which hath saued hir But the church of Rome maketh merits of hir own hath inuented worâ—es of supererogation hath great confidence in Bulles Reliques Indulgences and salutations of the Pope The church of Christ is the communion of Saints the society and the felowship of these that walke in righteousnes But the church of Rome is a den of théeues her hye Priestes are sorcerers coniurers necromancers murderers vnchast adulterers Sodomits church robbers and such like infamous creatures as is euident by Platina Beâ—no and all other that haue written their liues The church of Christ doth vse the keies aright as she hath receiued them she pardoneth the penitent bindeth vp the sinnes of the disobedient and as she frely hath receiued so frelye she bestoweth them The church of Rome doth binde and lose at aduentures sendeth pardons to persons that she neuer sawe and bicause she hath not receiued fréely she selleth vnreasonable deare and hath made men paye for their sinnes an hundred thousand ounces of golde To conclude the church of Christ is the members of Christ the bodye of one head of which heade she hath receiued hir saluatioÌ„ bicause he hath purchased hir with his blood The church of Rome is the body of Antichrist the members of an Idolatrous harlot that hath gone a whorehunting after diuers louers Therfore the church of Rome is not the church of Christ. And as this church of Rome is in déede the synagogue of the Deuill so she hath not so much as the marks of Christes congregation The right vse of the sacraments which is the badge of Christs church and the reading of scriptures wherby hir steppes are lightened are as farre out of Peters church in Rome now as in the tyme of paganisme ther were out of the capitol as it shall appeare vpon further discussion First if they haue the
Apostle commeth iudgement Here is no colour of shift least except they wil say after death that is when the generall daie of iudgement shall bée And if this might serue then had they somewhat to saye But S. Iohn hath preuented such wrestinge of scriptures After death as he teacheth is immediatly as soone as we be with God for this he writeth Blessed ar the deade which dye in the Lorde from henceforth saith the spirit they rest from their labour No labour abideth any more for them after death immediatlye they are receiued into ioy and their workes doe follow them And this present ioy of the godlye is likewyse specified where the same Apostle writeth that an hundred fourty and foure thousand did stande with the lambe in y e mount Sion meaning the elect which wer w t Christ in his kingdome An hundreth such other places there are in the scripture which testifie of our estate after death and do quite ouerthrowe the Popes purgatory Nowe for the better contentation of the Reader it were worth the labour to answere to al those places of the scripture in which they make so many blinde gesses at purgatory The places are Math. 5.26 c. 12.32 c. 18 34. Luc. 12.59.16.19 l. Co. 3.15 Phil. 2.10 Apo. 5.15 But read these places who list in the feare of God and true desire of knowledge he can by no imaginations haue one gesse at purgatory and yet for the establishing of such a doctrine it had bene requisite they could haue shewed euen the name for the interpretation of other men be they neuer so olde We may saye with the Apostle Euery man aboundeth in his own vnderstanding but no man knoweth the thinges that are Gods saue God alone and his woorde if we will not be deceiued must be our onelye guider But they haue one place 2. Mach. 12.44 in plaine words that it is good to pray for the dead if that booke be of able autority We rede likewise of one Razias an Elder of Ierusalem which first ran vpon his own sworde and when he missed of his stroke he ranne to the top of the wall and threwe him selfe downe among the multitude and yet hauing life in him went to the top of an highe rocke and pulled out his owne bowels and threwe them among the enimies and for this doing he is commended So by the authoritye of the same booke a man maye kill himselfe which Maister Harding him selfe I trowe will not constantly affirme yet this being scripture it might not be doubted Againe the same author saith If I haue done well and as the story requireth it is the thing that I desired But if I haue spoken slenderly and basely it is that I coulde These Iffes and Andes are not of that spirit which hath written the scriptures Thus doubting of his own ability besemeth not the holy ghost Beside this the gréeke in the same place is so corrupt that scarce any sense coulde be made of it And Ioseph ben Gorion out of whom that story semeth to be gathered in the same place doth quite leaue out this praying for the dead But it maye be that in those dayes some ignoraunt Iewes vpon an vnwyse deuotion did thinke it good to praye for the deade and likewise to praye againe vnto them that they would helpe vs. Which if it were so by such meanes this place might come into the Machab. And that some did thinke thus thoughe they were alwayes otherwyse instructed it appereth by one manifest place which is read in Philo Iudeus where he writeth the death of Debora who made a godly exhortatiō to hir people before she dyed For afterward they should finde no repentaunce There some made aunswere vnto hir Ecce nunc mater moreris ora itaque pro nobis post recessum tuum erit anima tua memor nostri in sempiternum Praye for vs after thy departure and let thy soule be mindefull of vs for euer To whom Debora maketh aunswere Adhuc viuens homo potest orare et pro se pro filijs suis post finē autem non poterit exorare nec memor esse alicuius yet while a man is liuing he may pray for him selfe and for his children but whan he is deade he can neyther intreate nor be mindeful of any And it followeth your similitude then shal be like the starres of heauen which are now manifest in you Hereby we sée what iudgement the common people mighte haue in such matters And yet howe the godly did otherwise instruct them reade this place thou shalt finde it so plaine that no wrangling may shift it of but nedes we must confesse that it teacheth vs that we ought neither to praye vnto saintes to help vs neyther yet agayne can we helpe them when they be gone Wherby it appeareth what manner of archer Maister Harding hath ben that could not shoote at so plaine a marke But he did shoote at his own dreames and so he lighted on Purgatorie Yet there follow a great many of markes at the which M. Hardyng could neuer shoote home The first is that the masse and our Communion is one wyth that marke sayth he I was neuer acquaynted Hys loose without doubt is very ill or he shooteth to low a compasse or else he draweth not close For M. Stapleton that shooteth with the same bow and arrowes hitteth this marke euen at the first The Masse and the Communion saith he duelye ministred is all one and it is folly to thinke any contradiction betwéene the Communion and the Masse Thus it appeareth M. Harding is a verye wrangler that wyll not shoote at that marke which his owne fellowes finde An other marke that M. Harding could neuer shoote at is this that Eucharistia doth signifie not the Sacrament but common bread I maruail he could neuer shoote at this marke For sith he began first that babling aunswere to M. Iuels learned Challenge he hath alwaye bene hobbing among those marks wher this is one though he neuer shot at the selfe same yet hath he seldome shot but at such like For it is a marke of slaundering and a marke of lying at whych marke as well in this Reioynder as other where M. Harding most commonly doth shoote very nere I neuer said saith he that Eucharistia was common breade but the sacrament This marke I could neuer sée In déede no maruail for who can well sée the thing that is not But you father this saying vpon Maister Iuell which reporte is all togither vntrue and slaunderous and in shootinge at this marke you drawe maruailous cleane and haue good deliuery be it prickes or rouers you haue measured the ground so oft that you knowe what to shoote But I pray you M. Harding where sayth M. Iuell thus What be his woordes Wher are they to be foūd Thinke you notwithstanding your oft vntrue demeanour that you can discredite your aduersary vpon your bare word The
not turned from errour to faith but from the church of God to the synagoge of the deuill And for our owne defence with the prophet Dauid we make aunswere vnto the blasphemers Our trust is in the worde of God After this Maister Harding findeth fault with to much constancye and considering his owne changes woulde haue it seme some commendation to turne vp and downe a little Then he bringeth in the examples of Arrius and certaine heretickes which in their owne opinion were founde to obstinate and compareth Maister Iuell with them in wilfulnesse and otherwise speaketh contumeously against him and for all this will be iudged by his Reioinder Nowe consider good Reader what maner of wryting this is In long talke before he required that his doings might be wayed and doubted not but Maister Iuell should be founde the more vnconstant Then fearing that he coulde not colour the great difference betwen them excuseth his own turning as though he had done well Now that his writings might be as vnconstant as his lyfe hath ben he ouerthroweth quite his first accusation and confesseth that Maister Iuell hath ben as obstinate as euer was Arrius or any hereticke which had rather dye then in any point to seme to relent If this be true wher is all that a doe which was made about the sixe articles and I know not about what subscription O M. Harding oportet mendacem esse memorem it behoueth a lyer to be mindfull Giue Lord vnderstanding and M. Hardings writings shall néede no aunswere one leafe doth confute an other Concerning these examples which he vseth it appeareth that as in these tragedies he hath set apart al honesty so in mani places he hath more shew than learning How can this saying agrée with it selfe some had leuer suffer death then to séeme at any time to haue ben out of the way they vse examples of Arius Macedonius Nestorius Eutyches Did not diuers Arians subscribe in the Councell of Nice and made open protestation that Arrius held the same fayth which the Councell set out And did not Arrius himselfe make the same profession both in woord and writing vnto Constantinus the Emperour after his return vnto Constantinople Did not Macedonius so vse the matter with Alexander B. of Constantinople that when he dyed he commended him to be his successour and after set vp by the Arrians and deposed by the Emperour dyd he not quite forsake his Arrian heresie Did not Eutyches cited to the Councell of Constantinople send one in his roome to subscribe to the fayth of the Ephesine and Nicene Councels Did not Nestorius cry in the open councell at Ephesus Dicatur Maria Deipara cesset haec molestia let Marye be called the Mother of God and let this trouble cease Thys I haue shewed that it might appeare howe fitlie M. Harding doth apply hys examples Now hys writings standing thus sometime without learning often ill agréeing and most commonly wythout honestie what skilleth it in this behalfe if the Reioynder sit in iudgement They say a scabbie horse is good ynough for a scaule Squire Harding ¶ I say not onely as you do in your preface but in this Reioynder I do manifestly proue in due place some Doctours by you to be vntruly alleadged some corruptly translated some peruersly expounded some guilefullye applyed their wooâ—des sometimes abbridged sometymes enlarged sometimes altered sometimes dissembled With these false sleightes you burthen me in word with the same here I haue charged you in dede Sundry auncient fathers which you deny by good authority I haue auouched Your own childish argumeÌ„ts falsly and fondly by your selfe deuised and fathered vpon me I haue wholy contemned and so returned them vnto you againe For the .45 Vntruthes which you pretend to haue noted in my aunswere touching your first Article I haue returned vpon you .225 noted in your Replie of the same Article Those which you impute vnto me be now already partely and maye shortly be iustified And therfore proued not to be vntruthes at all Yours you shall neuer iustifie When you attempt it you shall do it but with a multiplication of infinite other vntruthes Dering Now M. Harding as he is wittie séeing it is not all golde which he hath made to glister and fearing least hys colours might be rubbed away from his writing vpon good courage sayth boldly he hath spoken nothing which he will not prooue in his Reioynder Much after such a sorte began Cyclicus the Poet fortunam priami caâ—â—abo nobile bellum and when Cyclicus hath made an ende of his Iliades M. Harding shall be as good as his woord He chargeth M. Iuel with corrupting the fathers yet in all this Reioynder as appeareth by hys vntruthes he is not able to conuince one authoritie of falsehood He sayth there is no proofe in M. Iuels Preface yet in his own Epistle here is neither truth nor honestie The childish arguments he will passe ouer with silence So he doth in déede many of them and a great péece of thys first article beside Where no shew of aunswere may be had silence can do least harme But Maister Harding though he saye it yet perhaps will not sticke much in this Upon entreaty he will yéelde vnto vs true allegations of the Doctours and will sticke to take vnto him his Arguments againe but touching the .44 vntruthes in that he will neuer yéeld They are all iustified and shall be iustified and .225 returned vpon Maister Iuell which shall neuer be aunswered and if we but attempt it we shall but multeply moe Untruthes But softe good Reader be not a fearde of vanity I remember a certaine Lacedemonian that when he sawe one tying togither longe circumstaunces of speach Now I make God a vowe sayde he this is a hardy man that when he hath no reason yet can roll his tongue so handsomely and what other is this of M. Hardings but tongue rolling his owne Untruthes he saith are all iustified Yet Maister Stapleton confesseth that in one place Maister Harding was ouerséene I haue returned saith he 225. vntruthes yet he hath turned some one of theÌ„ .7 times If he had serued them so all he had returned aboue fiftene hundred and these as he saith can not be aunswered without multiplying of mo vntruthes How true this is let the reader iudge Sure for my part if it be so I will reuoke that I haue written But this I must forewarne them I doe not take it for vntrue to say their Pope is Antichrist and their Masse Idolatrous and their church a sinagogue of iniquitye If otherwise I make any vntruth â–ª either in misconstring the worde of God or falsifying other mens authoritye by Gods grace when I shall vnderstande it I will reuoke it but my conscience is yet cleare I haue written nothing deceitfully Harding ¶ Sith it is thus the best aduise I can giue you is first to consider better of these matters and to call to
your minde what hath moued you to enter so farre Next how faithfully you haue delt in the same Then what rewarde you may looke for in the ende Dering Of this wicked Epistle gentle reader thou art now come to the peroration although it be long and odious as the maner of olde buyldinges is to haue wide ruinous kitchins yet thou shalt do well to reade it to learne to take héede of such manner doing and although the filthy synckes be somewhat lothsome at the first yet by the grace of God the sauor shall not infect thée First saith he what moued you to enter so farre Doublesse Maister Harding the frée mercy of God the father poured vpon him through Iesus Christ this was the efficient cause His ende was to glorifie God that God might glorifie him againe for his faithfull dealing It hath ben such as flesh and bloude coulde suffer That which is wanting shall be accounted vnto him by the merit of his sauiour Iesus Christ. The rewarde that he looketh for is not of merite but of grace and it is the inheritaunce of that kingdome which was the porcion of Gods chosen ordeined from y e beginning Now these beginnings being thus Maister Hardings further running can be but hastening to new lyes what so euer he shall further say of Maister Iuells profession These other vngodly woords y t came after full of much bitternesse are not worthy aunswere Euery one may inuent them that delighteth in euill speaking and they can not cary any good man to mistrust Harding ¶ If this councell can not sincke into you if neither this nor any other the like aduise shall take place with you what is my parte to do but to leaue you to your selfe and to the will of God Dering After sundry waies atempted how Maister Harding might bring our doinges into suspition at the last very modestlye he doth leaue vs vnto God but by and by he breaketh out againe he cannot suppresse his coler and for a full proofe that all his fayer speaking is hipocrisy he raueth streight so out of measure that he doth excéede him selfe not prouing anye thing but as if his worde were Apollos oracle he presumeth with out controlle to speake what he listeth and goeth away so fast in his frothy matter that contrary to his woonted cunning he forgetteth how to speake for after a great heape of words of which euery one according to his number doth specifie a new vntruth he writeth thus Leaue to do as not only through your whole Replye but also through your first article you haue done Who euer spake after this maner what writer what scholer what childe when 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie nothing This phrase of Maister Hardings shal be allowable but that surely he shall not onelye neuer proue but also not before he set out his next booke After this vncomelye speaking he bringeth in very absurd matter and chargeth Maister Iuell bicause he bolstreth vp his Religion with the authorities of late wryters Yet where Maister Harding bringeth one sentence out of the olde fathers giue me leaue in a doutfull matter to vse one of Maister Hardings gesses Maister Iuell I thinke bringeth twenty But what forceth he to speake that speaketh he knoweth not what Harding ¶ If you intend to write against any of our Treatises cul not out our sayings forth of a whole heape as your maner is leauing what toueheth the point in controuersie and taking parte that being put alone and besides the rest semeth to haue lesse force Dering It were hard to finde such an other Caligula that so approueth this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a shamlesse behauiour in him selfe He chargeth Maister Iuel with culling out of sentences who layeth forth his whole aunswere word for worde and findeth no fault with him selfe that skippeth at aduentures sometime two leaues at once and aunswereth not a worde Againe about this he vseth a heap of vaine words as though in much bibble babble all controuersy were decyded This maner of wryting doeth make me remember a certaine Lacedomian which tooke a nightingale and pulling of hir fethers when he saw hir little body thou art euen a voice saide he and nothing else and surely Maister Harding is but a nightingale take away his fethers that is his gaye wordes and there is nothing but a little withered carcase vnderneth He accuseth Maister Iuell of a childish wit but with how childish a iudgement who séeth not I will make no comparison of the man he hath nothing which he hath not receiued if any man doe not thinke hym as well learned as anye Englishe Louanist if Apollo might awarde him his hyre he shoulde haue Midas eares It forceth not what correction Maister Harding vseth to discredite his Replie All the learned men in Englād will seale it with their iudgement y t it sheweth a rare replier He talketh of burning it and no doubt him selfe woulde cary a fagot to helpe make the fyre but it is cast in a good moulde and shall kéepe his fashion notwithstanding this rable of new carpenters that woulde disfigure it Harding ¶ Remember Maister Iewel it is the cause of God you would seme to treate God hath no nede of your Lyes Leaue wrangling ieasting scorning mocking scoffing Contend not about wordes and syllables forsaking the matter Obscure not the truth with vaine Rethorique ouerwhelme it not with your abundance of woordes Bring not confusion to the matter when it is cleare of it selfe make not shew of victorie where you are least able to answere Make not your reader to laugh where he would be taught Affect not so much to be pleasant seeke rather to be a true handler of Gods causes Put not the hope of your victory in the coldenesse of your Aduersary but in the truth of the matter Refuse not to stand to their iudgemēt alleadged against you whose witnesse you bring for you Allow not a writer in one place condemning him in an other place Dering Nowe sure if Mayster Harding were a boy in the Grammer schoole for this pretie tale he deserued to go to play I haue not séene one in copia verborum varie a sentence more handsomly And how shall all this be aunswered Euen as Cleomenes aunswered the Ambassadours from Samos to such a long oration of so little purpose the whole hangeth so loosely that the beginning I can not remember and therefore I vnderstand not the middest but such things as are in the end are altogither disalowed For Mayster harding sayth in the ende he is a colde aduersary if he meane colde in religion it may be well graunted if otherwise colde it may not be alowed looke what heate of wordes eyther will or abilitie can vtter in his Epistle and Reioynder there is nothing wanting Hardyng ¶ If you wil vse the testimonie of the Scholemen and Canonists consider it to bee reason that you subscribe to their fayth It is well knowne
vnto you they be catholike in doctrine as whome therefore you account for Papistes Yet who euer alleaged them so thicke as you haue done though to no purpose in your Replie It seemeth you were desirous to shew all your wares at one market Vse their testimonies and beleue them If you beleue them not what meane you to vse them Dering Now Maister Hard. hath gone well forward in vntruthes as the violence of his nature draweth him he falleth into a paradoxe If you vse a mans authoritie sayth he it is reason you subscribe vnto his religion What reason is there in these words or who would speake thus that knew what to speake well Doth not Mayster Harding meane to blind the eyes of the simple when he will aduenture to speake such monsters or hath he not little to say where he taketh hold of this Christ vsed the testimonie of the Scribes and Phariseis of Pindarus an Ethnike Poet. S. Paule of Epimenides Yet it is no reason Christ should subscribe to y e Iewish religion Paule should become an Ethnike I néede not make this long by examples they are in maner infinite euery where to be founde But bicause Mayster Harding maketh this so straunge I must put him in mind of a saying that Tullie vseth against Verres Tuum testimonium quod in aliena releue esset id in tua quoniam contra te est grauissimuÌ„ debet esse The witnesse which in an other mans matter were little worth yet in thine own bicause it is agaynst thy selfe it must be of great authoritie Now surely this saying of Mayster Harding is verye grosse But yet ludus iocus prae vt huius rabies quae dabit It is nothing if you compare it with that which followeth He biddeth Mayster Iewell leaue off to fill his readers eares with vaine false fables Now Lucullus may haue leaue to speake like Cato Antonie to accuse Tullie for placing shakebucklers in the Capitoll Gracchus may speake of sedicion and Verres may reproue men of theft Maister Harding doth find fault with fables I must aunswere as Tullie doth O miseruÌ„ siue haec tibi nota non sunt sine sunt qui apud tales viros tam impudenter loquare O wretched man whither he know it or know it not that speaketh so shamelesly vnto his readers Mayster Iuell hath not one tale to proue any article Maister Harding and his companions haue aboue one hundred thousand to proue their religion and howe could it be otherwise when the Legend it selfe whence they fet their diuinity is nothing but lyes After this bicause Mayster Harding can espy neuer a fable auouched by Mayster Iuell he thinketh good to charge him with that he sayth not wherby such as will beleue him on his word may think at the least he hath brought somwhat for himselfe and vpon some such consideration this he telleth foorth his tale Hardyng ¶ Where as you make so much adoe with me for one vision of S. Basile which neuerthelesse is reported by men of good credite remember your owne selfe are not able so well to iustifie youre owne fables which you tell at the beginning as that Pope Gregorie whom you had rather call Hildebrand was a Necromancer and a Sorcerer that Emperor Henry was poysoned in the Communion bread that Pope Victor was poysoned in the Chalice Dering Here Christian reader thou hast foure lyes in foure lines First sayth he Mayster Iuell findeth much fault with me for one fable that is one lye for Mayster Harding hath manye fables one out of Abdias diuis 5. an other oute of Leontius diuis 32. the thirde out of Amphilochius diui 33. beside all the allegations out of other petie Doctours This is then one vntruth forasmuch as M. Hardings words seme to acknowledge but one fable The second lye is that it is reported by men of good créedite and that is not so Vincentius and Antonius are of little better credite in their histories then Arthur of little Brittaine I haue not numbred their lyes but sure it is neyther of them haue so fewe as a thousande For triall read the bookes and if thou go ten lines without a lye in Antonius thou must light vpon the couer and in Vincentius thou shalt not séeke much further These Authors then are not of good credit The thirde lie is that maister Iuell is not so well able to iustifie the histories of Victor Henrie and Hildibrand For he can hardly alleage any of lesse credite then Vencentius Antonius But let the defence of the Apologie be a triall of this matter The fourth lie is that these fables are Mayster Iuels owne For he doth not so much as once say they be true but onely writeth that this it is reported and he alleageth Hermannus contractus neyther in that place doth Mayster Iuell care whether they be true or no. But Mayster Hardings tale of Amphilochus is soothly auouched set out with many circumstances and made a solemne proufe of his priuate Masse Yet I haue heard many better tales tolde by olde women of Robin goodfellow Then the warest councell that I can giue him is if he will further his Masse let him speake no more of fables The residue of this Epistle which is very little is concerning certaine vntruthes which are aunswered in theyr places the maner and forme of wryting is still like it selfe full of vncomely wordes against the Replie At the last he concludeth thus Harding ¶ If men be not vtterlye blinde and as I may say so bewitched with the spirit of errour and lying as to beleue what soeuer you say be it true be it false I doubt not but after they shal haue read my Reioynder and what is written by others here of late in their iudgement your Replie shall finde small credite Nowe to ende If you feare not God to whome of so many vntruthes you shall giue account yet reuerence man of whose wordly estimation you depende For my parte I shall pray that eyther God moue your hart to repent and amend or that he giue the people grace not to beleue you Dering It is true which our Sauiour Christ hath sayde the tyme should come when if it were possible the very elect should bée deceyued For who can sée these bolde asseuerations which M. Harding vseth and the great assuraunce he pretendeth for his Religion and would not thinke that the worde of God were his warrant But be not deceyued Such confidence is not straunge neyther toward God nor man Cossutian in no wise would feare Caesar. And Rabsaketh the Capitaine of proude Senacharib sayd the Lord â—ad him come to destroy Ierusalem the Grecians haue a prouerbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 some mannes mynde maye as hardlye bée pearced as Aâ—ax Buckler and the Scribes said we know that God spake with Moises but this man we know not what he is But Theogâ—â—s sayth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by foolysh perswasion I am vndone
matter that M. Iuell nameth him Zazius in steede of Lazius as who say that euery man must not néedes knowe Wolfangus Lazius that hath séene Abdias False printing can not blame the author where wrangling is not in place Lazius sayth eyther Saint Luke borrowed hole stories of Abdias or Abdias of S. Luke By this it appeareth Lazius is well content if you thinke S. Luke borrowed his writing of him Nowe for the more contempt of so vaine and fonde a saying Maister Iuell may well report his wordes absolutelye and ought not for that to bée blamed with vntruth Yet let vs admit that Lazius saying were sufferable I aske of M. Harding how a disiunctiue proposition may be improued without affirming or denying one certaine part Besides this it is no newes to Wolfangus Lazius to speake sometime at randome when he should speake truth He hath other wheres many absurdities and some both slaunderous and odious to rehearse ywis by good account a man may easily finde more lyes in his bookes than frier Furius can chalenge in Sleydaines commentaries but let them go For this present matter Maister Iuell eyther in contempt of this vaine imagination or for the more appearaunce of so great an absurdity without any suspicion of vntrue dealing may before all good men report these wordes as he doth The. B. of Saris. He maketh many shamelesse lyes and sayth that he was present with Christ and at most part of the Apostles doings Harding The .26 vntruth He sayth not so Dering If we marke M. Iuels wordes well we shall sufficientlye be forewarned As touching these vntruthes he maketh saith Maister Iuell many shamelesse lyes and sayth he was present at the Apostles doings Here maister Harding can challenge no vntruth concerning Abdias shamelesse lying but for his presence at the most of the Apostles doing that saith he is nothing so Let vs take that which by silence M. Harding confesseth and then if Abdias haue many shamelesse lyes how can he further Maister Hardings Masse or if he haue not why is it not noted for an vntruth By like he thought that by speaking nothing of Abdias lies they might be forgotten and by calling them to tryall Abdias should be quite shamed For my part I meane not to meddle with them they are mo in number then in short time may be recited Onely I aduertise thée to reade the booke due tryall shall be surest iudge As touching this present vntruth whether he were cōuersant with the Apostles or no it maketh no great matter what skilleth it what he was or what time he liued It is smale credit to Esopes fables that the author liued in king Croesus dayes Yet for maister Hardings pleasure let vs sée this vntruth He sayth not sayth maister Harding that he was present at most of the Apostles doings I aunswere that it is not necessary to be very scrupulous in reporting of Abdias his wordes it is more then he deserueth if we vouchsafe to recite his meaning Thus much maister Harding and Abdias do say that he was the Apostles scholer that he was present at the death of Saint Andrew and Saint Thomas at the doings of Simon and Iude which were all Apostles and of all this is it much if we say that he was present at the most of the Apostles doinges Such is this Abdias He hath deserued yll maister Hardings friendship His credite is so little that he can not further hys priuate Masse His doings are so vnreasonable that they can not be defended without shame But the prouerbe is verified like will to like An ill cause hath most ground in vnsufficient witnesse and an ill patrone is best content with vnable authoritie The. B. of Saris. It may be gathered by Saint Augustine in sundrie places that some part of this booke was written by certaine heritikes called the Manichees Harding The .27 vntruth Saint Augustine hath no such thing of Abdias Dering This vntruth is little worth and soone aunswered It may be gathered sayth Maister Iuell But saint Augustine speaketh not of Abdias saith M. Harding It is true in déede saint Augustine doth not name him for if he did there neded thē no gathering The thing were plaine It is an easie thing to find many vntruthes if we make our aduersary to say what wée list Whether Augustine meane of Abdias or no that shall bée séene in y e next vntruth Here is nothing affirmed but that he may séeme to meane him that this may be gathered M. Har. denieth not That Abdias is ment it must appeare by the next vntruth So either maister Harding maketh two vntruthes of one as his maner is or here speaketh nothing to the purpose as he commonly vseth The B. of Saris. For he reporteth the fables of Saint Thomas of Saint Mathew of Saint Andrew of the Lyon that slue the man that had striken Saint Thomas of the dog that brought the same mans hande to the table of Maximilla wife vnto Egis and other like tales euen in such order as they be set foorth by this Abdias Harding The .28 vntruth Saint Augustine nameth not Mathevve The .29 vntruth He nameth not Andrevv The .30 vntru He speaketh not of Maximilla vvhich Abdias ment Dering M. Hardings vntruthes amount not yet to his mind Therfore he thinketh it not amisse to quote them a little faster vpō which aduice he maketh thrée in one periode he might as wel haue sayde S. Augustine mentioneth not these stories and so haue made but one saue that he loueth not such plaine dealing But the matter is not great as short an aunswere will serue for all as if they had béene but one Saint Augustine nameth not Mathevv nor Andrevv Marke good reader this vntruth Maister Iuell sayth Saint Augustine telleth the tales of Mathevv and Andrevv and so he doth let the booke be the iudge Maister Harding sayth S. Augustine nameth them not neyther doth maister Iuell saye he nameth them take away this much wrangling and here is no vntruth at all But this we haue to note by the way for the better credite of maister Hardings Abdias that Saint Augustine condemneth those tales for lyes which Abdias telleth for a certaine truth Concerning y e tale of Maximilla wife to Aeges which maister Harding saith is not reported in the same sort by Abdias as it is by Saint Augustine first we must knowe both Augustine and Abdias meane the same woman as shall appeare in y e .31 vntruth Then Augustine speaketh of hir as of a foolish vaine tale Abdias speaketh of hir doings as of true and weightie stories Thus it appeareth though Saint Augustine doe not name the parties yet he agréeth in the tales and when this shall be knowne the .27 vntruth shall be iustified That it may be gathered Saint Augustine meaneth of Abdias these thre latter vntruthes which are but the proufe of Maister Iuels coniectture shall appeare so good that before the true christian reader the quoting of
them shall séeme but wrangling and this new counterfeit Abdias shall be reiected as a teller of dreames and a lying wryter And for our great comfort god will bring to passe that when it shall be knowne to the indifferent reader that Papistrie can not stand without such shamelesse doctors they shall begin to learne that it is a shamelesse doctrine The B. of Saris. Beholde what thinges they be that be written of Maximilla wife to Aegis that she being once christened would no more yeelde dutie to hir husbande but set Euclia hir mayde in hir owne place and other like fables All these and such like tales thus disalowed by S. Augustine are reported by Maister Hardings Abdias in great sooth Harding The .31 vntruth These tales be not reported by Abdias Dering Now is maister Harding come as he sayth to a great and impudent lye and such a one as by no meanes can be excused let the booke saith he be iudge I doe M. Iuell great wrong to write in his cause with so little diligence But for this cause I doe it which I trust I shall well performe that the vnlearned should not be deceiued For the learned be they not of wil blinded Maister Hardings bookes can not hurt them he hath made so vnequal a match Thou séest good reader for the iustifiing of this vntruth whereat are made so great exclamations one should read ouer all Abdias which labor I lothed so as if Amaras porrecto iugulo c. as Horace writeth I should haue stretched â—ut my necke and listened after bitter histories yet when there was no remedie I tooke the booke and in diuerse places read so much I think as amounteth to one whole leafe or more and of that little reading as I can I answere There is named in Augustine one Maximilla such one is named in Abdias she was wife to Aegetes or Aegeas so was Abdias his Maximilla she had a mayd named Iphidamia or Iphidama so sayth Abdias of his Maximilla and hir handmayd Iphidamia sayth Saint Augustine went to go heare S. Andrevv and so did the handmayde in Abdias and of all this I say as M. Harding sayth let the bookes be iudge Nowe reader I must craue thine indifferent iudgement sée whether Augustine and Abdias meane one Maximilla If they do remeÌ„ber Augustine sayth they be impudent lyes and Abdias doth tell them in great sooth But sayth Maister Harding Abdias and August do not write a like of Maximilla Sure it is the more like Abdias is a lier But what if we say Abdias did write whatsoeuer Saint Augustine hath Barre maister Harding of his gesses and he can not confute it Iohn Faber a great fabler of maister Hardings side sayth that this Abdias when he was founde was all reueled and without any fashion full of faultes so that one could neyther read him by vnderstanding nor vnderstand him by reading Then no maruaile if some part of it be perished and the booke be not come wholy vnto our handes though Abdias say not euery whit that is in Augustine When maister Harding can bring any péece of likelihoode how this agréement may be betwéene them and yet they meane not both one then let this go for an vntruth In the meane season consider whereto this shamelesse impudent and notorious lye is fallen whereof he hath made such tragedies and what the other vntruthes be when so great account was made of this This is it that I saide before maister Harding was little beholding vnto Abdias First he could not pleasure him for his small authoritie now he hath shamed him with this vnshamefast defence The B. of Saris. Saint Augustine seemeth in diuerse places to haue giuen his iudgement of this booke Hardyng The .32 vntruth Saint Augustine meaneth not of Abdias Dering Maister Harding hath good lyking in his owne doing or this vntruth should not haue bene noted twise For the matter there is inough saide in the former vntruth the argument of the thing doth witnesse of Augustines meaning The. B. of Saris. The like iudgement hereof is giuen by Gelasius Harding The .33 vntruth Gelasius meaneth not of Abdias Dering Maister Harding is so iealous ouer his Abdias that in no case he will let him be spoken off The booke be like is so full of lyes that he is sure no man can speake any good of it But how so euer he be affectioned we must thinke of authors no otherwise then we finde them He is not yet Pope and therefore may erre his word is no good witnesse of an other mans meaning Gelasius whome so euer he meaneth certaine it is he may meane Abdias for the worthinesse of the booke And whereas maister Harding for some proufe of his side sayth that he coÌ„demneth certain actes of Martyrs which are thought to be written by infidels Gelasius hath not one such worde But where as maister Harding saith further for the discharge of Abdias that Gelasius speaketh of one Quiricus and Iulita his mother this is a mocking of his reader without all regard of honestie First what kindred was betwéene these two it skilleth not much but Iulita may as well be his daughter as his mother for any thing that Gelasius sayth But let the kindred go maister Hardings reason hangeth thus Gelasius reiecting one hundreth bookes among other nameth the passioÌ„ of Quiricus ergo he reiecteth not Abdias and this is all the reason on which he groundeth this vntruth reade his Reioinder Nowe way on the other side what cause Maister Iuell hath to thinke Gelasius ment Abdias and vpon conference of eyther reason this vntruth shall be very soone answered The second booke that he condemneth is the actes of saint Andrew Abdias doth write the actes of S. Andrew The third is the actes of Philip Abdias wryteth y e actes of Philip. The fourth is the actes of Peter Abdias wryteth the actes of Peter The fift is the actes of Thomas Abdias wryteth the actes of Thomas Beside this he reiecteth the doings of Maximilla and Abdias speaketh of Maximilla Now let the indifferent reader iudge whether Gelasius meaneth of Addias or whether maister Hardings worde and misshapen argument may couÌ„teruaile all these coniectures The B of Saris. Thus it may be supposed by Saint Augustine and Gelasius that this booke was written by heritikes Harding The 34. vntruth A burthen of vntruthes Dering If this be a burthen of vntruthes no doubt the substaunce of them is very little For take away the .32 vntruth that Augustine meaneth not Abdias and the .33 vntruth that Gelasius meaneth not Abdias and except Eubulus come that saw Christ helpe Basil to Masse all this burthen of vntruthes is like to be vndone As touching the vntruthes there is inough saide already Whether they ment of Abdias it appeareth that maister Harding is to blind a iudge to gesse so boldly the contrary Here I must put thée once againe in minde of the numbring of these vntruthes First Saint
Augustine speaketh not of Saint Mathew the .2 nor of Saint Andrew the .3 nor of Abdias his Maximilla the .4 nor of Abdias the .5 nor Gelasius speaketh of Abdias the .6 nor they two speak of Abdias Thus the whole being ioyned is but one true proposition yet out of it after his maner of cutting maister Harding hath carued .6 lies And thus much of lying Abdias The B. of Saris. Martial was so defaced in many places that it could not be reade Harding The .35 vntruth It could be read else hovv coulde it be printed Dering By gesse Why should not the printer haue as much liberty in printing this little olde booke as maister Harding vseth for proufe of his whole religion The Printer himselfe sayth prae nimia vetustate vix legi potuerunt for estreame age they could scarce be read Nowe where as maister Harding doth aske how then could they be printed I aske of him how Abdias was printed For of him his sorbonist Doctor wryteth he could neyther be read nor vnderstand An other might much better haue moued this doubt then maister Harding He is not now to learne what gesses may doe But howe soeuer he was printed sure this vntruth was not worth noting The B. of Saris. It is iudged by Iohn Colet and other graue men that Dionysius can not be that Areopagita Saint Paules disciple which is mencioned in the Actes Harding The .36 vntruth It is not iudged so by Iohn Colet The .37 vntruth They are no graue men that so iudge Dering These vntruthes can not be good that are made so fast nor yet so many as the maker would haue them when one is told so many tymes If this were vntrue that maister Iuell writeth yet were it not two vntruthes but one But bicause there is no remedie we will take them euen as they fall out As touching the former of these two it néedeth no aunswere Maister Harding doth not denie it but that Iohn Colet hath both spoken it and preached it then what skilleth it whether it be written his preaching is a witnes of his opinion though maister Harding say nay For this other vntruth that such other as deny this Dionysius to be the true Areopagita are no graue men he is sure no graue man that hath noted it I may aunswere this with the wordes of Saint Paule horum laus non ex hominibus sed ex deo these mens prayses are not of men but of God Maister Harding should not for his modesty sake haue noted it for an vntruth to call the godly fathers of our age graue men His belligods Popes Cardnals Friers Monkes Priestes others of that kenâ—ll haue not so much laboured in searching out the truth in fiue hundred yeares as these other haue done in fiftie But God hath giuen the increase his name be praysed for euer As touching this Dionysius whether we haue his workes or no it is a thing soone iudged How vnlike is it that the conuersion of Dionysius should be mencioned by Saint Luke in the actes of the Apostles yet he him selfe would not mencion it once in al his workes or if this might be yet what may we thinke of that that in all his booke he doth neuer so much as once name Paule May it yet be doubted whether he be that Dionysius which Paule conuerted Besides this S. Ierom making purposely a rehearsall of all ecclesiasticall wryters speaketh not one worde of this Dionysius Other auncient fathers doe neuer alleage him his owne bookes are so strauÌ„ge fansies of many secrete misteries that sure it is he is not the true Areopagita The. B. of Saris. Saint Iames Liturgie hath an especiall prayer for them that liue in Monasteries and yet it was â—erie rare to haue Monasteries built in all Saint Iames time Harding The .38 vntruth There is no mention of such Monasteries as we commonly meane when we speake of Monasteries Dering As be for Monasteries as Monasteries are to speake of the things themselues as they are in déede so to say of Monasteries as they be considered in this meaning of Monasteries so Monasteries and so forth a man should go farre that shoulde follow Maister Hardings wrangling The B. of Saris. Chrysostomes Liturgie prayeth for Pope Nicolas by these wordes Nicolai sanctiss vniuersalis Papae longa sint teÌ„pora We pray God sende Nicolas that most holy and vniuersall Pope a long time to liue But Pope Nicolas the first of that name was the seconde Pope after dame Ione the woman Pope Harding The .39 vntruth He prayth not for Pope Nicolas of Rome The .40 vntr There was no such woman pope Dering Nowe Maister Harding after he hath giuen so many offers and maketh neuer a wound he directeth his engines quite contrarie and assayeth if that he can giue the Pope a blowe Pope Nicolas sayth Chrysostome that most sacred and vniuersall Pope That is no good proufe sayth Maister Harding that he meaneth the bishop of Rome Here is a full subscription to the .4 article The authorities alleaged for the Popes supremacie are quite ouerthrowne to be called vniuersall bishop is no proufe of his supremacie Had Maister Harding wel considered it this vntruth had bene quoted some other where but doubting that this be not aunswere good ynough he letteth it go and graunting it to be sayde of Pope Nicolas therevpon he asketh this question If Chrysostome might not pray for Pope Nicolas how is the death of Moyses described in the bookes of the lawe There is no man sayth he so hardie to denie that Moyses wrote these bookes Be not afrayd good reader of these big words nor of M â–ª Har. daring All this is soone aunswered Either Eleazar or Iosue wroâ—e the .34 Chap. of Deuter. And they might well write of Moyses his death Or if Moyses wrote it he knew it by reuelation For so he himselfe wryteth The lorde hath saide vnto mée thou shalt not go ouer this Iordane Sure of a doctor of diuinitie this was a very simple question If he can shewe any such reuelation that Chrysostome haâ— of Pope Nicolas then let this be Chrysostomes Masse The .40 vntruth is concerning pope Ione who neuer did the sea of Rome more dishonesty then she hath stoode maister Harding in good stéed For both she helpeth out his Reioinder with vntruthes and maketh a great péece of his confutation of the Apologie But saith maister Harding there was no such woman Pope What skilleth it to this present matter whether there were such a Pope or no. A filthie Strumpet is good ynough for such a whoorish kingdome If there were such a one Pope Nicolas was seconde after hir Whether there were or no my profes are néedelesse my lord of Sarisburie hath resolued vs in that behalfe The B. of Saris. Now it were much for me to say that Chrysostome prayed for men by name 700. yeares before they were borne Harding The .41 vntruth I say
not so Dering This is a proper vntruth Now by lyke Mayster Harding is non plus The B. of Saris. Thou seest Christian reader what doctours here be brought as maister Harding sayth to ground thy fayth and saluation vpon Harding The .42 vntruth I say not so Dering If Maister Iuell shoulde so misreport maister Hardings saying as he himselfe for his vntruthes sake doth commonly vse then had he good cause to crie out both of misconstruing and corruptions for he will say and vnsay and all with one breath for to séeke aduauntage Thus he sayth expressely he hath brought these authorities for y e confirmation of thy fayth And againe he hath brought these authorities for the stay of all christian mens beléefe Sée his booke thou shalt sée the words Thē why saith he not y t he bringeth these authorities to groūd thy saluation on or how could he without blushing note this vntruth There is no other difference in the sayings saue where Maister Iuell reporteth it to ground thy faith Maister Harding hath to stay and confirme thy fayth If here be any difference alway wrangling excepted let this be an vntruth And yet were there any Maister Harding speaketh plaine ynough in the confutation of the Apologie Thus he saith there Are not these trustie men to whome you maye commit the charge of your soules for your fayth and saluation These wordes I trow are plaine ynough to proue this no vntruth The. B. of Saris. It is the very expresse order of the Communion Harding The .43 vntruth It is not so Dering This vntruth maister Harding hath not in the text but hath wrested it out of the margine and bicause he thinketh that for the base matter it would be little regarded to make vs the more attentiue he beginneth with this admiration But what meaneth Maister Iuell c. But to quite Maister Hardings wonder I aske of him againe what meaneth he thus abruptly to rush into maister Stapletons possessions He hath taken vpon him to returne those vntruthes and whye doth maister Harding meddle where he hath no thank There be already a great many past which he hath not touched and why doth he out of season thus meddle with this If he thinke maister Stapleton hath returned it nothing cunningly I doe easily graunt that he is in déede a naughtie workeman if he thinke by his labour it shall appeare more beautifull I must néedes graunt his turning is much better but yet the matter it selfe is neuer a whit the truer And for as much as the thing must trie it selfe let vs somewhat better examine it Maister Harding sayth in the .5 diuision of his first booke that Ciril hath expounded the Masse vsed in Ierusalem Maister Iuell noteth this for the .12 vntruth saying that Ciril expounded the communion and not the Masse Maister Harding returneth this vntruth againe saying it was the Masse and not the Communion I might with as great facility denie this again and say it were the Communion and not the Masse But bycause my testimonie were in this not of weight I am content to be furthered with the witnesse of maister Stapleton Hée sayth plainely that maister Harding brought not this for proufe of the question and that it maketh nothing for priuate Masse But here Maister Harding saith that it was a Masse Therefore this vntruth gathered by maister Harding is answered thus by maister Stapleton that it is not so and tyll they agrée better a longer discourse of that place of Ciril is neyther profitable nor necessarie The B. of Saris. What if all these doctors testifie against maister Hardings Masse Harding The .44 vntruth They testifie not one vvorde against it Dering Maister Iuell alleageth Iames his Liturgie Abdias Iustinus Dionysius Basil Chrysostome and Ignatius reade the Replie fol. ii of all these saith maister Harding they be M. Iuels buts and therefore he will skip them ouer and not answere a worde neither rime nor reason What shamelesse demeanor is this in men that professe to séeke the truth if wée would doe the like howe soone woulde this Reioinder be aunswered It is an easie matter if this be ynough M. Harding must séeke better stuffe this will not serue Although in déede it be true that this Reioinder is all false and vngodly stuffe yet séeing christian people are so euill disposed the falsehoode of this stuffing must be in some part disclosed Howe much then should this discredit maister Hardings religion against so expresse authoritie to make so slender aunswere The B. of Saris. Hippolytus was lately set abroade in print about seuen yeares past before neuer acquainted in the worlde Harding The .45 vntruth He was well knowne before Dering That man is well knowen of whom most men haue heard or with whome many be acquainted Now howe proueth M. Harding this Hippolytus is well knowne Saint Ierom saith he named him Surely this is a very small acquaintaunce to be named but of one man in all the worlde Yet not thys bastard Hippolytus but that other bishop and martyr is named of Saint Ierom. Such vntruthes haue great sauor of enuie or of folly or of both Sith maister Iuell sayth that Hippolytus was neuer acquainted in the worlde and Maister Harding doth shew but only that Saint Ierom did name him This vntruth if truth were wel regarded should surely haue bene spared Howe be it I graunt not onely Ierom named Hippolitus but other many Eusebius speaketh of him so doth Theodoretus and alleageth diuers sayings out of hys bookes Gelasius Epiphanius and Niciphorus also haue named him and yet all these had but small acquaintance with him Eusebius and Ierom and Theodorete knewe not where he was bishop Gelasius sayth he was a bishop in Arabia Nicephorus saith he was bishop of Ostia a hauen towne in Italy Ierom sayth Origene was stirred vp by emulation of Hippolitus yet it appeareth by sundrie recordes that Origene was made bishop of Alexandria .x. yeares before Hippolytus did write By this it appeareth that y e true Hippolytus was not long since well knowne in the world so that were this booke good yet maister Iuell sayd true But how good it is and how vnworthy the name of Hippolytus read the Replie and thou shalt well perceyue Beside this the booke by M. Harding alleged entituled de cōsummatione mundi is not once mencioned neither by Ierome nor Eusebius nor Theodorete where they make especial menciō of Hippolytus bookes then I trow we may say truely this is no vntruth The B. of Saris. He beginneth the first sentence of his booke with enim Harding The .46 vntruth He beginneth otherwise Dering Here Maister Harding maketh himselfe merie with wondring at Gréeke readers and scholemaisters musing howe they could haue béene so ignorant But may it please maister Albutius that so faine would be a Grecian to remember the Gréeke saying 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to laugh out of season is a great miserie Had this defence
christo apostoli ab ipsis eorū acciperint successores We do surely beleue that that forme of wordes which are in our Canon the Apostles receyued of Christ and there successors of them If this sentence might preuaile then the case of consecration had ben cléere But it is well if the Popes friendes will not beleue him For my part I meane not to purchase him any credit Now resteth the .57 vntruth to examine whether Scotus and Innocentius doe say that benedixit he blessed worketh consecration Maister Harding standeth stiffely in it and doth aduenture his credite that they say it not and being to much inflamed against Maister Iuell he writeth with a good countenance that of al the men that euer wrote he had least cause to bring Scotus for his purpose and that he is very rashe in so doing And if thou wilt beleue him for a cleare iustifying of this vntruth he sayth that Scotus and Innocentius neuer said that benedixit worketh consecration Surely good Reader these desperate assertions might well make thée thinke that thy bishop had deceyued thée But be not yet to hastie of beliefe be simple as the done but be wise as the serpent yea euē as the Romish serpent that hath so well prouided for his yong ones His Prelates may not be accused without .72 witnesses Let not thou a good bishop be discredited with one slaūderous tongue His priestes may not be controlled of any lay man be he neuer so religious Let not thou Gods minister be blamed of an Apostata yea and as though they were not yet prouided for well ynough Pope Euaristus ordeyned that the people should not accuse them at all Yea and that whole Laterane councell vpon good warrant of that saying of S. Paule the seruant standeth or falleth vnto his lord by authoritie of that sacred assemblie they exempt them from such temporall iurisdiction Then let vs be somewhat ware in defence of a Godly Bishop that maister Hardings bolde reprehensions may not proue him faultie Scotus and Innocentius saith Maister Iuell doe say that benedixit worketh consecration That is a false lye sayth M. Harding Then vppon good tryall let the truth appeare and let vs here what the Authors themselues say Scotus in déede sayth thus verba consecrationis sunt quatuor hoc est corpus meum There are 4. wordes of consecration this is my bodye If Scotus had said no more then maister Harding had alleaged all But it followeth a little after sed haec verba hoc est corpus meum prolata sine praecedentibus non significant hoc absolute But these words pronounced without the other wordes going before do not absolutely signifie this that consecration is done Loe Scotus sayth not as maister Harding reporteth him that consecration is wrought by these foure but saith he there is no consecration if the wordes afore which are the blessing be left out And now to auoyde all vaine cauilling about these words G. Biel sayth speaking of the same matter Quid si verba praecedentia omitterentur Respōdetur licet hic Scotus sit alterius opinionis tamen hoc communiter tenent doctores quòd haec quatuor sola sufficiunt ad effectum cōsecrationis What if the words going afore be omitted it is aunswered though Scotus be here of an other opinion yet the common sentence of doctors is these foure are sufficient Here besides the manifest words of Scotus G. Biel is also a witnesse that as maister Iuell sayth this is the common opinion but Scotus thinketh that the wordes going before are necessarye If then Scotus owne wordes and G. Biel witnesse are better proufe of Scotus meaning than Maister Hardings imagination it is true that the consecration is wrought by the whole blessing And this other saying before alleaged by M. Harding must be thus qualified that in that place he saith those are the especiall words Thus is Scotus saying auouched by maister Harding disalowed by his owne plaine words and by the testimonie of Biel. Concerning Innocentius whether he thought consecration was wrought by benedixit he blessed if Maister Harding had regarded his owne credite he would not haue denied it The whole troupe of his doctours doe so alleage his opinion First Scotus saith Sacerdos profert illa verba quasi materialiter quia recitat ea sicut a Christo dicta vt patet per rationem praecedentē in Canone Christus autem quādo illa dixit non transubstantiauit panem in corpus quod probatur ex verbis illius Canonis quia ibi praemittitur benedixit Vnde dicetur quòd per illam benedictionem praecedentem consecrauit non per ista verba hoc est corpus meum Cui concordat Innocentius Concerning the thirde article it is saide that the priest speaketh those wordes as the matter of consecration bicause he recyteth them euen as they were spoken of Christ as it appeareth by that which goeth before in the Canon But Christ when he saide those wordes did not transubstantiate the breade into his body as lykewise is proued by the Canon For there it is sayde before he blessed whereof it is sayde that by that blessing he did consecrate not by those other words this is my body and of this opinion is Innocentius in his booke of the office of the Masse .3 part the .6 Chapt. and the .14 Here hast thou Innocentius auouched and his opinion confirmed by Scotus Now for the thirde point of this vntruth Where Maister Harding saith if Maister Iuell had any mo he would haue named them May it please him to reade Alexander de Ales Okam Gotfrey Albertus Biel Marcilius diuers other of his owne doctors Either he must accuse them all as lyers or there are other of this opinion Thus we sée these great exclamations whereto they fall that in one title he cannot iustifie one vntruth But whether maister Iuell had mo to alleage or no reade his defence of the Apologie thou shalt sée fo 208. The B. of Saris. Cardinall Bessarion Bishop of Tusculum writeth thus Harding The .58 vntruth He vvriteth not so Dering If shamelesse lying were punished in Loueine then no doubt maister Harding would be more ware what he wrote Now as may be thought impunity haue made him confident Let the booke be iudge of this vntruth The B. of Saris. How be it by what soeuer wordes consecration is made it standeth no◠in abolishing of natures as maister Harding teacheth Harding The .59 vntruth I teach not so Dering Certainly good reader this vntruth is very straunge M. Harding is a great mainteiner of transubstantiation in al his doing yet here to get one vntruth he is content to forsake it I doe not teach sayth he that consecration consisteth in the chaunging of natures If it be so then by consecration the nature of bread doth not chaunge into the nature of christs flesh to this I gladly yéelde Would God maister Iuell said here vntruely The
otherwise than the Euangelists reporte his words or else they could not agrée with their Masse this is a sufficient discharge of this vntruthe A good Christian before he sée better aucthoritie will beleue as the Gospell teacheth that we must first take it and eate it before it be Christes body so shall he sone sée the Idolatrie of a Popishe Masse The B. of Saris. If Christe instituted the Sacrament to the intent it should be first consecrate and then receiued of a companie c. Harding The .72 vntruthe This is a very grosse falsifying of my words Dering These are M. Hardings owne wordes in this Diuision Christ ordained y e Sacrament after Consecration done to be receiued eaten Of these words saith M. Iuel as is before alleaged if Christ. c. if I should héere aske of the indifferent Reader wherin is this grosse falsifying sure he could easily espie it But somewhat to helpe the Readers vnderstanding this it is where M. Harding hath to be receiued and eaten M. Iuell saith to be receiued of a companie if this be as it is in déede no fault whereto is this vnseasonable crying out of falsifying But if it shall séeme to be a fault then know that where M. Iuel alleageth M. Hardings owne wordes he printeth them in a distinct letter but this saying which so grieueth M. Harding is in the common letter of M. Iuels words wherby master Harding might haue wel vnderstand had he not bene disposed to wrangle that master Iuel alleaged them not as his expresse words but rather sheweth how he should haue made his saying plaine and this he proueth by authoritie of Bessarion and Gabriel Biel that after Consecration the sacrament be not receiued onely as maister Harding sayth but receiued of a company which word as it must so being expressely written master Harding did directly reason against himselfe The B. of Sarisb The .9 diuision Here vnawares he seemed to confesse that his Masse whatsoeuer substance it bear it is void both of good order and also of congruence Harding The .73 vntruth I confesse no such thing Dering You séeme to confesse it â–ª sayth M. Iuel Whether you doe or no let your words witnesse You say you are not bound to folow Christes example in order and congruence Nowe we may infer Christes order is only good therefore you folow no good order or congruence This is but a single vntruth The B. of Saris. The matter being so weightie and not yet throughly beleued c. Harding The .74 vntruth It hath bene beleued Dering When you proue this sure M. Iuel will subscribe you may make euery word in his booke as vntrue as this For he hath not one worde that soundeth towarde your religion if this may be noted for vntrue to say your Massing worshippings haue neuer bene throughly beleued you may note many moe vntruthes in this Replie For there is not one line that alloweth the Masse Read the next vntruthe The B. of Sarish The olde fathers call that the daily Sacrifice that Christ made once for all vpon the Crosse. Harding The .75 vntruthe The olde fathers call not the Sacrifice of the Crosse the daily Sacrifice Dering M. Iuel doth alleage Aug. secund Luc. serm 28. Ierom. in 1. Co. ca. 5. Germanus in Eccle. rerum theoria Irenae lib. 4. cap. 34. Tertul. aduer Iudaeos Amb. in 1. ad Tim. cap. 2. Examine the aucthorities and sée M. Hardings answere so thou shalt best iudge If I should enter into it it would require a long aunswere and nothing necessary What the Doctors wryte M. Iuel is thought to know as wel as M. Harding First reade and then iudge This is againe the .132 vntruthe And bicause we are againe fallen into mention of this Sacrifice which M. Harding said euen now hath bene throughly beleued let vs examine that vntruthe and trie if M. Harding be found true in his workmanship It hath bene throughly beleued saith he that the Priest doth offer vp to God the body and bloud of Christ vnbloudely in the remembraunce of that one bloudy Sacrifice of Christ. Reade of this in the Epistle the .31 leafe thou shalt haue it fully discussed only in this vntruth bicause the question lieth rather whether it hath bene beleued than whether the saying be true let vs a little consider of Christ him selfe his Apostles whether they haue beleued it First Christ in no one worde did giue vnto his Churche any commission of suche maner sacrifycing Christ saith often I giue vp my soule I Saâ—rifice my selfe no man doth it but I but vnto his Disciples he saith quo ego vado vos non potestis venire Whither I goe ye can not come By which wordes he taketh from them all power to Sacrifice him euen as it was afore tolde by Daniel that after Christ was once offred the Sacrifice and the Oblation should cease Not a word written wherby it may be gathered that we may offer vp Christ. And doth M. Harding thinke that in so weightie a matter as the remission of our sinnes that any thing is required of vs which is not commaunded vs It appeareth then in the time of Christ this was not beleued Did the Apostles beleue it after Christ S. Paule saith in that he died vnto sinne he died but once againe by one Oblation he made his perfite for euer and againe wher is remission of sinne there is no more sacrifice for sinne Then by S. Paule there is nowe no daily sacrifice for sinne except by Christes deathe we will that our sinnes be not forgiuen Againe S. Paule will haue vs folowe Christes example in the administration of Christes supper who teacheth vs of no Oblation for quicke and dead Againe the sacrifice cannot be made without a speciall priesthode but the Apostles doe teache vs that all suche Priesthode is abrogate If at any time the name of Oblation be mentioned in this age it is euer meant spiritually As is plaine Ro. 12. .16 Phil. 2. 1. Peter .2 for the real Sacrifice S. Peter is plain Christ hath caried our sinnes in his body vpon the woode and by his stripes we be healed and the effects of that one Sacrifice once made are purging of the sinnes of the whole world 1. Pe. 2. .3 1. Ioh. 2. 3. Ro. 4. Ephe. 1. eternall redemption Gal. 2. Ephe. 1. Rightuousnesse Ro. 3.4.8 2. Cor. 5. SaÌ„ctificatioÌ„ Eb. 10. Peace Ro. 5. Ioy of the spirite Ro. 4. Gal. 5. Newnesse of life Rom. 6. 1. Co 5. Loue of our neighboure 1. Ioh. 3. Eternall life 1. Ioh. 5. Ro. 6. then neither Christ nor his Apostles euer beleued it for the estate of the primatiue Churche how it beleued M. Harding hath nothing to say but referreth vs to the .xvij. Article of his former booke héere good Reader my labor is wel eased for séeing my Lord of Sarisburie hath answered al that matter who so wil be confirmed in that truthe he can
go I think to no mortall man to be more strengthned The B. of Saris. It pleaseth M. Hard. to alledge the one end and conceale the other Harding The .76 vntruthe The .10 diuis I conceale not the other Dering If M. Harding doe alleage bothe these ends of the Sacraments that is To ioyne vs vnto God to ioyne vs one with an other then let this be vntrue if he do not then for my pore skil me thinketh he concealeth it The B. of Saris. M. Harding saith the Communion signifieth not the Communicating of many together Harding The .77 vntruthe I say not so Dering Héere M. Harding and M. Stapleton do agrée so iumpe in one vntruthe that it appeareth euidently their religion is either very vniforme or at least they haue bene both instructed in one schole Thus saith M. Harding The Cōmunion is not so called bicause many or as M. Iuel teacheth the whole congregatiō receiued together in one place These words M. Iuel reporteth thus He saith the Cōmunion is not so called of the Communicating of many together This is vntrue saith M. Har. I say not so this is vntruth saith M. Sta. he saith not so I require héere of thée good Christian Reader to viewe the woords well and finde out any fault if thou canst Surely I thinke thou canst finde none like as sure it is M. Iuel did thinke of none But these two pair of Egles eyes what haue they espied Forsothe wher M. Harding saith it is not called the Communion of Communicating togither in one place M. Iuel thus reporteth it it is not called the Communion of Communicating togither and leaueth quite out in one place which maketh all the matter this distinction of Communicating together and Communicating together in one place bicause it is somewhat straunge these men should haue done well to haue proued it by some Doctor Sure M. Harding if he may goe for a Doctor he teacheth vs plainely in an other place that to Communicate together is to Communicate in one place For thus he writeth but that they should Communicate together that is to say in one place that we deny By this Doctor it appeareth that together and in one place is all one and then this can be no vntruth The B. of Saris. How be it in plaine speche it is not the receiuing of the Sacrament that worketh our ioyning with God Harding The .78 vntruthe The worthy receiuing worketh this effect Dering Doth it so Are we not ioyned to God before we eate the Sacrament S. Paule saith Elegit nos in ipso He hath chosen vs in Christ before the foundations of the worlde were laid muche more are we his before we receiue the sacrament Concerning sacraments the same Apostle sayth of Abraham Signum accepit circumcisionis c. After he receiued the signe of Circumcision as the seale of the righteousnesse of y e faith which he had when he was vncircumcised And shall we be taught now that they be no more seales and witnesses but causes of our iustification God kéepe vs from suche spiders that gather poison of so swéete floures And that thou maist take the more héede of this mannes doctrine I must first tell thee that for proofe of it he bringeth not one worde of Scripture but pretendeth the aucthority of Chrysostome and Cyril I would answere the aucthoritie for suche Doctors saue that the labor were long and not necessary For I will declare out of the Scripture that the doctrine is hereticall and thereby thou shalt be satisfied and maist further imagine that these holy Fathers names are too muche abused In this vntruthe of M. Hardings he teacheth two points of Doctrine the one that by and thorow the worthy receiuing of the Sacrament we be ioyned vnto God the other that the Sacraments are not only seales and pledges but also they containe grace Now let vs sée how these two Articles agrée with the worde of God And first whither the receiuing of the Sacrament do ioyne vs vnto God and as M Harding saith putteth also into vs life immortall Our Sauior Christ in the Gospell after S. Iohn doth often tel his Disciples how they are made one with God yet in that holy Gospel as in all other scriptures there is not one worde that telleth vs we be made one with him by receiuing the Sacrament But contrarily by plaine words we be taught what vertue this Sacrament hath that it is onely a signe of that grace which we haue receiued as shall appeare héereafter In the sixthe chapter of Iohn where Christ reproueth the fleshly hearers of his worde and calleth them to a true beliefe in him the Iewes make this answere What signe shewest thou then that we may sée it Our Fathers did eat Manna c. Héere is first shewed what the Iewes thought of Manna not that by it they were ioyned to God or receiued grace but that it was a signe a token and a pledge of their frée election how they were a peculiar people vnto God This Manna being a figure of this Sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ now lest vnto the Churche Christ maketh this aunswere I am the bread of life he that commeth to me shall not hunger and he that beleueth in me shall not thirst for euer By this we learne that to beleue in Christ is to haue euerlasting life and as Manna was a signe to the Israelites so the Communion of the body and blood of Christ is a signe to vs that this promisse shall be made sure It is written in the Prophet and all thy children shall be taught of the Lord of this saying our sauior Christ teacheth vs how we be ioyned vnto him and sayth No man can come to me except the father which sent me draw him And to this ende it is written by the Prophet Ieremie After those dayes sayeth the Lord I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts and I will be their God and they shalbe my people Of this we learne that if we come vnto Christ the Father must draw vs if we be his people he must be our inward teacher if we be vnited vnto him he must first come and dwell in our hearts whereby it is plaine that we must be first engrafted in Christ before we can worthely receiue his holy Sacramentes Furthermore it foloweth in S. Iohn he that eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloud dwelleth in me and I in him Therefore we must dwell in him and he in vs or we can not eate his body and drink his bloud And the wicked which dwel not in him can not receiue him Again where our Sauior Christ doeth teache very largely how we be ioyned vnto him and become one with him euen as his Father and he is one he sheweth that this societie doeth come vpon vs of his Fathers frée mercy apprehended by Faithe of his woorde And for
the scripture that on a day when the Disciples came together to break bread Paule disputed among them and prolonged his talke vntil midnight Of this if I shold conclude that they came in the after none M. Harding perhaps would say it were but a gesse therefore I leaue it S. Paule writeth to the Corinthians if any man be hungry let him eat at home Therfore it foloweth necessarily that they may receiue after other meate and if it be so M. Harding him selfe will graunt they might receiue at night vnlesse as he doth in the .8 diuisiō so here he will deny that this place is meant of the Communion and if he doe the Doctors are then against him S. Augustine shall stand in stead of many who saith plainly de hoc ipso sacramento loquitur He speaketh of this very sacrament Now this being lawfull to be done and the Churche of God being so oppressed could not méete when they wold no doubt sometime they met at night And further that this may be no bare gesse that some receiued at night It appeareth by S. Luke where he writeth that they did continue in the Doctrine of the Apostles and in breaking bread and that continuaunce in the same Chapter he mentioneth againe by these wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which words signify a continuāce from morning till night and by this aboue all coniecture it is manifest they receiued sometimes at night Then except M. Harding wil vse héere his former distinction of the Thursday before Easter and say that quotidie is euery Maundie thursday it is true that M. Iuel saithe that sometime they receiued at night Now that some parte of the vse of the primatiue church may appeare to agrée with this doing of the Apostles we will a little examine their doings S. Basil writeth that they were accustomed at the dedication of Temples to méete at midnight but at the same assemblies they may well séeme to haue ministred the Communion and therfore at after supper We reade the same of Athanasius that he did vsually gather together the Christian congregation at Alexandria in the night time And of this night méeting in all the congregations that were in Europe Lactantius maketh expresse mention Ierom maketh mention of the same in his Epistle to Sabinjanus and against Vigilantius And that these meetings were in the foreparte of the night it may appeare for that they had commonly other méetings in the morning which they called Antelucanos coetus the morning assemblies And yet if M. Harding wold sticke in it I may refuse all these and many suche aucthorities And for the iustifying of these vntruthes stand to the plaine wordes of Sozomene who writeth that in many Cities and Townes among the Egiptians they had their méetings on Saterday at night and in like plaine woords Primasius saith that in certaine places of Syria and Egipt men came together on Saterday night and that after Now I trust though the Thursday before Easter with maister Harding be no time yet all these saterdayes ioyned with it I trust do make sometimes Here is nothing can be replied but if M. Harding wil say that in suche méetings they did not minister the sacrament And if he wil say so may it please him then to héere what Eusebius saith that in suche méetings they had Orationes Psalmodiam participationem de mysterijs c. They had prayers singing psalmes the Communion c. And S. Augustine saith they did celebrate Dominicam coenam the Lords supper but except M. Harding haue some distinction in store which yet now he hath not told vs of we shall not néede greatly to proue this matter in the .182 vntruthe where M. Iuel alleageth the coūcel of Cabilon to proue that Masse doth sometime signifie common prayer bicause there it is recorded that they had Masse at euening circa noctis initium about the beginning of night there M. Harding maketh this answere why sir thinke you that Missa is taken for any kinde of prayer bicause in that place it is required to be done in y e euening As though the Masse might not at any time be celebrate but only before noone if you so thinke you are deceiued c. and there fully he concludeth that sometime it was said at night naming both maundy thursday and other times also Then I trust this vntruth is iustified expresly by sundry other aucthorities and probably by M. Hardings owne He telleth vs in déede that though it were at night yet it was not after supper nor yet dinner but that saying resteth vpon M. Hardings credit which to proue an vntruthe wayeth ouer light The B. of Saris. In the primatiue Church this order was thought expedient not for the sicke for they in their health receiued daily Harding The .82 vntruthe It was for the sicke The .83 vntruthe They receiued not daily Dering If I went about to aunswere M. Hardings Reioinder in this one Paragraph through lying and fonde speaking he hath ministred sufficient matter to fill many leaues But I leaue that to the godly Reader to consider For this present purpose thus saith master Iuel the receit of the Cōmunion when men lay on their death bed was instituted in the primatiue Churche especially not for the sicke but for them that were excommunicate This saying M. Harding dothe turne as if M. Iuel said that it was not expedient for the sick to receiue and so maketh that vntrue which in déede is vntrue and neuer spoken by M. Iuel But without such shifts master Hardings number of vntruthes could not grow For maister Iuels saying that this receiuing was especially for the excommunicate it may be sufficiently proued And M. Harding in his Reioinder saith nothing to the contrary for this vntruthe bicause M. Iuel saith no such thing Let it stande as a slaunder not worthy aunswere An other vntruthe héere is brought that the people receiued not daily and M. Harding hath such a confidence in this vntruthe that he is not contented with once noting it but as his manner is in many other vntruthes when his number commeth slowly forward he reconeth up one .4 or .5 times so he vseth this and maketh it the 83.133.145.156.213 vntruthe Now bicause it is so often reckened by like it standeth vpon some good ground Reade the .133 vntruthe and thou séest what it is The B. of Saris. At last it grew to suche superstition that it was thruste into mennes mouthes after they were deade as we may see by the councell of Carthage forbidding the same Harding The .84 vntruthe It was not thrust in their mouthes The .85 vntruthe It is not to be seene Dering What meaneth M. Harding would he haue children witnesses of his foly The wordes of the Councel are these Item placuit vt mortuis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 non detur It hath likewise pleased vs that the Sacrament be not giuen vnto deade
men héereby saith he it appeareth it was giuen to deade men not that it was thrust in their mouthes But I pray M. Harding can a thing be giuen to a dead man to eate and not thrust into his mouthe This vaine contention about words proueth M. Harding to be a very wrangler This appeareth to be true by the Canon M. Iuel recites and further we reade that it was commaunded if the persone were dying infundatur ori eius Eucharistia that the Sacrament should be poured into his mouthe Héere by the way note that in that time the people receiued the cuppe As touching the .85 vntruth M. Hardings Reioinder doth confute it selfe in the next vntruthe before he said the Councel did forbid it now he sayth it did not so whether it did or no M. Harding hath made a lie and except the distruction of thrusting it in their mouthes and putting it in there is no coloure to shadow the lie The B. of Saris. The members of these argumentes hang together like a sicke mannes dreame Harding The .86 vntruthe I make no arguments in this place Dering No good arguments in déede I graunt but yet suche as they are you encombre vs with them The B. of Sarisb Heere would M. Harding faine finde a Masse c. Harding The .87 vntruthe Heere I seke not for the Masse Dering But to séeke after your Masse is your only purpose Therfore here you speake nothing to the purpose and consequently as it was said afore your writings hang together like a sicke mannes dreame The B. of Saris. Here these words euery other christian man or woman that he hath in by the way are an ouerplus and quite from the purpose Harding The .88 vntruthe The .12 Diuision These vvordes are quite from the purpose Dering The question is whether there were priuate Masse within .600 yeare after Christ that is whether the Priests receiued alone in the congregation Maister Harding answereth sicke men and women receiued at home The controuersie lieth whether this be from the purpose The B. of Saris. For the question is moued not of any other man or woman but of the Masse and only of the Priest that saith the Masse Dering The .89 vntruthe Before there was an vntruth quoted not numbred here is one numbred and not quoted When M. Harding telleth what this vntruthe is we will answere it in the meane season we may marke the value of these vntruthes Some not worth numbring some not worthe naming but all is good inough for this Reioinder The B. of Saris. S. Ierome in his exposition is as homely calling it vilem intelligentiam traditionum Harding The .90 vntruth S. Ierome calleth not Moses lavv so Dering Héere M. Harding maketh two gesses One at S. Ieroms meaning an other at maister Iuels if either faile this vntruthe that is risen by chaunce must sal of necessitie But M. Harding héere as his whole religion is maketh very muche of outwarde shewes For except a little carnal pleasure of the outward sense there is nothing in their sinagogue but mourning and lamentation of the spirit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in no wise he will haue beggerly Ceremonies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saithe he is poore or nedy not beggerly What great ignorance in singular impudencie This exacte defining of Gréeke words may bréede some where some opinion of learning But alas héere is nothing but in déede 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 beggerly wrangling without other learning or good religion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith maister Harding is not beggerly but poore Yet Aristophanes saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not pore but beggerly Nowe whether were better Grecian master Harding or Aristophanes I thinke it may be sone iudged Aristophanes wordes are these 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is a begger and hath nothing he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that liues by his labor Thē by this it séemeth that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is beggerly And Maister Harding that sacred interpretation that trident couent doth so muche enforce doeth it not call them egena elementa And I pray you M. Harding whether is egena poore or beggerly Surely Ouid saith de rem amor lib. 2. of Hecate and Irus why they are not beloued Nempe quod alter egēs altera pauper erat bicause Hecate was but poore Irus was a very begger but thus it is Maister Harding careth neither for Aristophanes nor yet for Ouid neither yet for Gréeke nor yet for Latine He is so ielous ouer his vntruthes that some time he speaketh he knoweth not what Againe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saithe maister Harding is rather Elements than Ceremonies In déede I graunt the word signifieth the foure elements but I trow he wil not haue S. Paule speake thus now you know God why turne you againe to the fire aire water and earth that were a beggerly sense made of the holy Ghosts wordes Then why doeth he not confesse that S. Paule meaneth the Ceremonies of the law and thus much as concerning master Hardings Gréeke As touching his religion it is very choler if in respect of Christ he may not suffer the ceremonies of the law to be called beggerly But it is no maruell though this interpretation offend them for what is it that Paule calleth beggerly Ceremonies It foloweth You obserue dayes and monthes times and yeares Hinc illae lachrimae for this cause M. Harding is so much offended such obseruations are great principles in Papistrie and to call them beggerly is to make all that Religion nothing worthe But we sée suche a one is Paule he was chosen to preache among the gentiles and God haue the glory he hath conuerted vs from al popish Idolatry For this aucthoritie of Ierom which M. Harding blameth in which he séeketh for his vntruthe read the place thou shalt finde the words or else let this be vntrue The B. of Saris. Of mingling water with wine superstition only except no man maketh any great accompt Harding The .91 vntruth The old fathers make great accompt of it Dering If M. Harding will presse vpon these wordes no man maketh any great accompt then he might haue said I and my felowes make great accompt of it therfore some body dothe it and by this meanes he might haue had many witnesses of his saying and so his vntruthe had bene the surer If he will not so force the words why doth he apply them vnto the olde fathers By this it appeareth he writeth not alwayes with the best aduisement But now he doth M. Iuel great wrong and racketh his words to that he neuer ment He speaketh of him self and other that at this day professe Gods religion saith that were it not for feare of superstition we would not greatly stick to mingle water with the wine and for proofe that M. Iuel ment thus let his boke be iudge He alleageth Cyprian and Iustine and farther saith that
vntruthe Then thus hang these vntruthes If this last be true that the Gréeke Church dothe consecrate with prayers the thirde is true that it intendeth not Transubstantiation And the second is true that it hath no suche intent as the Church of Rome hath and the first is true that these churches are not resolued in this intent Now consider I beséeche thée good Reader what manner of vntruthes these are that notwithstanding their great number are yet so smal in value that if but one be proued true all .iiij. must be graūted Sure thou must néedes confesse that M. Harding who in his Epistle would so faine shoote at hobs and rouers yet at this marke he hath had so good deliuery that he hathe farre ouershot him selfe and his whole commendation is no more worthe than that praise in Horace of a babling Poete qui variare potest rem prodigialiter vnam which cā turne a true sentence into a great many lies For proofe of this last vntruthe on which the other hang we haue the plaine wordes of the Councel of Florence alleaged by M. Iuel where it is shewed that in the Gréekes mynisterie after the words of Christ pronounced this is my body they make this prayer fac panem hunc honorabile corpus Christi tui c. make this breade the honourable body of thy Christ. By this prayer it is manifest that these wordes this is my body being pronounced before did not worke Transubstantiation But bicause it hath pleased M. Harding in to great a zeale of his number to score vp vntruthes thus vnwisely least his friends should thinke the matter vnsufficiently answered we wil say somwhat of them in order euen as M. Harding noteth them and I doubt not but to the indifferent reader they shall one of them sufficiently confute an other First saith M. Harding the Church is resolued on the Priests entent But that is very false For the Gréeke Church and the Church of Rome haue not one intēt The Greke Church as is said doth consecrate with prayers The Church of Rome with hoc est enim corpus meum The Gréeke Church maketh more accompte of the worthy receiuing than of Consecration The Churche of Rome thinketh we ought to haue more regarde of Consecration than of the worthy receiuing I leaue out other differences which are almost infinite This is inough to proue our purpose Secondarily saithe M. Harding the Church of Rome entendeth not Transubstantiation What he entended in this vntruthe I know not For my parte wold God M. Iuel said héere vntrue and that that Romish Church would leaue of that presumptuous entent Thirdly saith M. Harding the Gréeke Church meaneth transubstantiation And this is very straunge for a learned man to speake suche repugnances First y t the church of Rome intendeth not transubstantiation Againe that the Gréeke Church doth intend transubstantiation And thirdly y t they two intende one thing when M. Harding with all his wrangling can make these vntruthes agrée sure we wil subscribe Now resteth a little to be considered of the Councel of Florence whether it may appeare by it that the Churche of the Grecians acknowledge no transubstantiation Thus it stoode When the Latines in that assembly required that they might entreate of transubstantiation The Grekes made answere sine totius orientalis ecclesiae authoritate quaestionem aliam tractare non possimus without the consent of all the East Church we can meddle with no other question c. Héere be the Reader neuer so simple he must thinke thus muche If this article of transubstantiation were so Catholike as they will make vs beleue how commeth it to be called so ofte in controuersie in generall Councell And againe if the Grecians did accompte it as Catholike and were resolued in it what meant they that they would not subscribe to so highe a point of Christian religion sure this was their meaning they knew this transubstantiation was but a Romish deuise and therefore they would ▪ not yelde vnto it And thus muche of these hasty vntruthes The B. of Saris. The .13 Diuision But if Cyril neuer spake word of the Masse how is he heere brought in to proue the Masse Harding The .101 vntruthe Cyril is not brought to proue the Masse Dering But he should proue priuate Masse or else what maketh he héere For of that the question is moued And this is a very hard case that M. Harding must lose his vntruthe or else confesse he speaketh not to the purpose The B. of Saris. Neither may we thinke that Christes body must grossely and bodily be receiued into our bodies Harding The .102 vntruthe We must beleue it Dering As maister Harding hath forsaken Gods Religion and is fallen againe to Poperie so it séemeth also he hath forsaken his learning and beginneth to make vntruthes with his follie This is one of the chiefest articles for which we haue forsaken their vnfaithfull Churche As ofte as we repeate this we conclude the thing which lieth in controuersie betwene vs. This is our professed opinion and vpon the trial of it by good and sufficient aucthoritie if it be proued against vs Maister Iuel is ready to subscribe Then what meaneth maister Harding Or what maner of vntruthe is this Or who can accompte it for true and plaine dealing when vpon good ground we shewe forthe our opinion and he scoreth vp the question for an vntruthe He shal doe well to reproue it before he make anymoe vntruthes of this Reade the .104 vntruthe The B. of Saris. S. Cyprian saith it is meate not for the belly but for the minde Harding The .103 vntruthe S. Cyprian saith not so Dering If M. Harding and his Popishe felowes had falsified the Doctors no otherwise than M. Iuel héere falsifieth S. Cyprian then in a little chaunge of words we should haue had their meaning faithfully deliuered vnto vs and bastard bokes such as they knew not had neuer bene ascribed vnto them But thanks be to God who hath now lightned vs least suche vngodly writings vnder godly names should deceiue vs as touching this vntruthe I graunt the words are not in that treatise entituled de coena domini But whether the author say the same thing in sense let him selfe witnesse M. Iuel alleaging no Latine words but folowing the sense saith thus it is meat not for the belly but for the minde The wordes in Cyprian are these Sicut panis communis quem quotidie edimus vita est corporis ita panis iste supersubstantialis vita est animae sanitas mentis As the common bread which we eate daily is the life of the body so this bread supersubstantiall is the life of the soule and the health of the minde and what is héere falsified by M. Iuel Or what is worthy blame in this allegation Yet M. Harding taketh this smal occasion to finde fault with his printed sermon with his replie and with them that as he saith
patched togither the Apologie For the printed sermon it is well confirmed by the Replie and the Replie is not yet found blameable notwithstanding this Reioinder the Apologie that he liketh to terme patched now after the time that God had apointed it doeth not want my defence the booke is pretious and is defended by suche a Iuell that all the treasuries in the world God make him thankful wil not buy his gifts therfore M. Hardings words cā not hurt him The B. of Sarisb Christ is set forth not to be receiued with the mouth for that as Cyrill saith were a grosse imagination Harding The .104 vntruthe Christ must be receiued with the mouth The .105 vntruthe Cyrill saith not so Dering This is one with the .102 vntruthe Master Hardings transubstantiation standeth him in very good stead to multiply his vntruthes And yet if he had well considered it it had not bene worth his doubling I haue spoken somewhat héereof in the Epistle Concerning this other vntruth M. Harding saith he knoweth not what he graunteth These are Cyrillus wordes but he gesseth at an other sense and vpon that surmise quoteth a new vntruthe Dothe he claime so muche to his owne vnderstanding that if he say it it must be so though y e words be contrary Before we build of his saying it shalbe néedeful for him to win some better credite Sée the place thou wilt beare witnesse that it is truely alleaged The B. of Saris. The .14 Diuision For the partie excommunicate being a priest might say he wold say Masse and so receiue the Communion euen with the bishop of whome he were excommunicate Harding The .106 vntruthe The Priest excommunicate might not say Masse lawfully Dering No sure whether he were excommunicate or no he might not say it lawfully neither by Gods law nor his holy Euangelies when M. Iuel saith this I will subscribe The B. of Sarisb Now if M. Hardings principle stand for good that the priest saying his priuate Masse may receiue the Communion with all others in other places c. Harding The .107 vntruthe I say not he may receiue with others Dering M. Harding is past shame wold God as I haue said often he were not past grace if these be not his words Therefore that one may Communicate with an other though they be not togither in one place it may be proued by good authoritie then will I subscribe if they be his words then iudge thou of his doing The B. of Saris. Heere marke good Christian reader then they Communicated saith Irenaeus when they met in the Church Harding The .108 vntruthe Irenaeus saith not so reade it againe and marke it better Dering These are Irenaeus words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 These words if as M. Harding requesteth we reade them againe and marke them better then no doubt they are thus in English These things being thus they Communicated together and in the Churche Anicetus gaue to Polycarpus the Eucharist Héere saith M. Iuel by this it appeareth they communicated when they met in y e church That is not so saithe M. Hard. Read it once again marke it better If often reading and better marking may serue the turne then gentle reader I craue also thy labour read it yet once againe and marke it better Yea read it while thou wilt and marke it how thou canst if this fansie of M. Hardings do but once come in thy minde I may boldely make thée this large offer let these all be vntruthes His fansie is so full of foly his imagination so vaine his interpretation so childish that if thou of thy self cāst finde it out I say as I said before let all these vntruthes stande Reade it I beséeche thée once againe and marke it better Is not this a straunge vntruthe that no mā can espie it but M. Harding But sith it is so that héere can be no vntruthe without M. Hardings good instruction let vs aske of him how it may be falsified He telleth vs of two faults the first in the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they communicated the seconde in Englishing Eucharistia the sacrament Mary saith he yet I will define nothing that is I will stande to neither of them Is not this a straunge dealing that he wil first finde fault then will not bide by it and yet notwithstanding wil score vp his vntruthe If this vntruthe be vntruthe why will he not abide by it Or if he will not abide by it why doth he say it is vntrue must his priuate Masse his halfe communion his outlandishe prayers his Popes supremacie yea his vntruthes and all be proued by paraduenture But let it be so what is it at the last that héere may chance be false this it is in the first fault about communion peraduenture forsoth they communicated before they met This blinde peraduenture wer it in Cambridge or Oxford no doubt it wold be hissed out of the scholes The second fault found in translating Eucharistia y e sacrament is this peraduenture Eucharistia here doth signifie sacerdotale mynisterium the priestly office Now sure good reader this is a straunge aduenture Eucharistia the priests office Fie on such a chance except a man had a priuiledge to make words sound what him listed No mā I trow wold haue made this aduenture But héere I must desire the reader to loke a little back to take the better view of M. Hardings dealing in the Epistle where M. Harding sporteth him self with his good artillerie he saith he could neuer shote at this mark that Eucharistia might be taken not for the Sacrament but for cōmon bread Now either by meanes of lighter arowes or a better loose he shootes a great way beyōd it saith with a good countenance y ◠Eucharistia is no bread at al but y e priests office Sure this is very vncertain shooting and can neuer stand with a good archer A man may shoote long at the Etymologie of y e word ere he bring it to this significatiō Though he haue determined to say little truely yet he shold haue taken héede how he had spoken so vnwisely That other tragicall exclamation that Eucharistia must be taken simply for bread consecrate bewrayeth this close dealing that it may be taken for the Priestes office And héere againe for a good note of M. Hardings fals dealing we haue to mark that in this place where M. Iuell sayth Eucharistia may be taken for common bread but yet apointed for the Communion M. Harding doeth not quote it for an vntruthe yet in the Epistle he noted it for a great heresie And why doeth he thus As it may be thought bicause he foresawe that to deny the Eucharist at any time to note bread not yet consecrate were a great preiudice to his grosse distinction that it might signifie the Priests office and therefore for the better conueyaunce of this absurditie he wold not quote that an vntruth which he had so greatly impugned before
God was offended with the same Harding The .119 vntruthe God was not offended with keping the sacrament but with the presumption of the woman which opened the cheast with vnworthy handes Dering M. Iuel sheweth out of Nicephorus that by like examples it may appeare God was offended with that reseruing of the Sacrament M. Harding without reason without aucthoritie without example of Gods word dothe boldely pronounce vpon Gods meaning and saith the example was shewed bicause she opened hir cheast with vnworthy hands Suche pronouncing of Gods doing should be grounded in Gods scriptures or else suche noting of vntruthes are rash and wicked I graunt it is in S. Cyprian cum manibus indignis tentasset aperire when she assayed to open it with vnworthy handes But whether for hir vnworthinesse God sheweth y e miracle that M. Harding addeth of his owne But what if Cyprian had said this we must not therfore haue beleued it He was a good member of the Churche of God but yet he was a man sometime deceiued He taught that Christ made satisfaction for original sinne only yet we know that was a wicked opinion He wryteth that it was in his time .6000 yeares sith the Deuill did assault man which is a grose error And in some places he thought not reuerently of the Maiestie of the holy Ghost God forbid we should yelde to any thing what so euer a good man doeth write But it is well in this place Cyprian saith no suche thing as M. Harding wold haue him and therfore his rashe vntruthe is not yet proued But to proue the contrary and that M. Iuel saith true we haue the aucthoritie of many Our sauior Christ bad doe that which he did in his remembraunce But he said vnto his disciples take and eate he said not lay vp in your chests And so Cyprian him selfe if it be Cyprian saith likewise recipitur non includitur the Sacrament is receiued it is not shut vp So likewise sayth Origen panis quem dominus dedit discipulis suis iussit accipi manducari non differri aut seruari in crastinum The bread which the Lord God gaue to his Disciples he bad them take it and eate it He bad them not defer it and kepe it till to morow Thus we sée M. Iuels saying may be sufficiently proued and maister Hardings bolde vntruthe is without any reason The B. of Sarisb The thing which our bodily mouthe receiueth is very breade Both the scriptures and also the olde Catholike fathers put it out of doubt Harding The .120 vntruthe It is the very body of Christ. The .121 vntruthe The holy fathers say not that the substāce of bread remaineth Dering This first vntruthe is all one with the .74 the .102 the 104. But suche must be had or how shal vntruthes rise Yet reason wold as I haue said that he shold proue his transubstanciation before he quote so fast these vntruthes Concerning this other vntruthe though it be one with this former and is now .v. times repeated that no wise man would thinke well of maister Hardings doing yet bicause he is so well pleased with it through his importunitie I must néedes say somewhat bothe for trial of his truthe and satisfying the christian reader First our sauiour Christ after consecration calleth it the fruit of the vine and a testament S. Paule v. times breade and the table of the Lord S. Luke calleth the whole Communion the breaking of bread Theodoretus an auncient father saithe Qui se ipsum appellauit vitem illa Symbola signa quae videntur appellatione corporis sanguinis honorauit naturam non mutans sed naturae adijcit gratiam He that called himselfe a vine did vouchsafe to honor those tokens and signes which are séene with the name of his owne body not chaunging their natures but ioyning grace vnto it And againe he saythe signa mystica post sanctificationem non recedunt a natura sua sed manent in priori substātia The mysticall signes after sanctification doe not goe from their owne nature but kepe the same substance that they had before that denyeth transubstantiation Gelasius saithe non desinit esse substantia vel natura panis vini the substaunce or nature of bread and wine ceaseth not Vigilius saithe of Christes humanitie quando in terra fuit non erat vtique in caelo nunc quia in caelo est non est vtique in terra when he was on earthe he was not in heauen now he is in heauen he is not therefore in earthe and in his first boke against Eutiches he likewise saith abstulit de hoc mundo naturam quam susceperat a nobis he hath taken from the worlde that nature which he receiued of vs. Chrysostome saithe natura panis in sacramento remanet The nature of breade abideth in the Sacrament Augustine saythe quod videtis panis est that which you sée is breade Origen saith Non materia panis sed super illum dictus sermo est qui prodest Not the matter of bread but the worde which is spoken ouer it dothe helpe Cyril sayth Christus credentibus discipulis fragmenta panis dedit Christ gaue vnto his beleuing disciples the breakings of bread Irenaeus saith Eucharistia ex duabus naturis constat terrena caelesti the Eucharist consisteth of two natures the one earthly which is breade the other heauenly which is by faith the féeding of our soules with the body of Christ. Reade maister Iuels bookes thou shalt sée suche other aucthorities in great number Thus thou séest Christian reader that the Doctors beare witnesse there is the nature of bread in the sacrament when M. Harding is able to answer these or bring any for himself then let the vntruthe stand The B. of Saris. The .18 Diuision This sole receiuing was an abuse and therfore abolished Harding The .122 vntruthe Sole receiuing in the time of persecution was no abuse Dering Héere M. Harding doeth fréely graunt that sole receiuing is an abuse whē the people may freely resort vnto the church Where is then the priuate Masse of our time This vntruth though it be worthe no answere yet for want of better it was once noted afore The B. of Saris. In M. Hardings Masse the whole people eateth by the mouthe of the priest Harding The .123 vntruthe They eate not by the mouthe of the priest as M. Iuel meaneth Dering M. Harding is driuen to narowe straightes that maketh suche raw vntruths with so many vnripe distinctions In the former vntruthe he putteth in in the time of persecution In this vntruthe as M. Iuel meaneth His helping hande must come to or there is no vntruth to be found This is M. Hard. plaine doctrine the people doe receiue by the mouthe of the priest If he can make two senses of these words his doubtful speaking is full of deceitfull meaning But this is too shamelesse wrangling No man in the world
vnto vs. And he that knoweth God heareth vs and the worde whereby the righteousnesse of God is knowne is the word of faith which we preache And plainly S. Paule calleth it the word of reconciliation And the Gospell is the power of God vnto saluation to al them that beleue And Peter witnesseth that the Gospell is preached to the ende men might liue vnto God and Christ sanctified his Churche by the washing of water throughe the worde Not one place in the scripture that we be sanctified by priuate Masse or daily sacrifice But let vs let these sacrificers alone They be blinde leaders of the blinde Read more of this in the epistle and in the .75 vntruthe The B. of Saris. The .26 Diuision S. Augustine saith the people receiued euery day Harding The .133 vntruthe He saith not so Dering Note this is all one vntruthe with the .83 and .145 These are S. Augustines words the daily bread may be taken for the sacrifice of Christes body which we receiue euery day Maister Harding saith he ment this of himselfe only and of other priests and he saith it only and doeth not proue it and vpon credite of his owne words doth quote an vntruthe With like facilitie I could make answer it were not vntrue but words without reason I will leaue vnto maister Harding to proue that S. Augustine ment the daily vse of their open Churche and that some did euermore receiue it may appeare as we reade in the Acts that those which came vnto the Church of Christ continued daily in breaking of bread and prayers by breaking of bread meaning the Communion And in an other place when the Disciples came together they brake breade and Paule preached And we reade in the .1 to the Corinthians the .11 Chapter When they came together they did eate the Lords supper Héereby it appeareth that in the Apostles time this daily receiuing was in vse though of Massing for the quicke and deade of shutting the bread in a boxe of worshipping it of carying about there be not one worde immediatly after c. About .200 yeares after this Tertullian wryteth Eucharistia sacramētum c. iam antelucanis sumimus temporibus We receiue the Eucharist euer before day And in an other place thy husband shall not know what thou tastest secretely before other meates By this it appeareth the Christians did vsually receiue euery morning S. Cyprian about 50. yeares after wryteth How shall we make them méete for the cuppe of martyrdom if first we do not giue vnto them the cup of the Lords bloud noting that in that great persecution they receiued daily in the morning Againe he wryteth Grauior nūc ferocior pugna imminet ad quam fide incorrupta virtute robusta parare se debent milites Christi And it foloweth Considering therefore they daily receiue the cup of the bloud of Christ they also for Christ may shed their bloud He saith further we require that this bread may be giuen vs daily least we that are in Christ Eucharistiam quotidie ad cibum salutis accipimus and daily receiue the Eucharist which is the meate of our saluation should be by any great offence seperated from Christ. Thus it appeareth in plaine wordes that in Cyprians time they receiued daily The like appeareth by Eusebius lib. 1. de demonst Euangelica cap. 10. Diuers other places may be brought which all proue M. Hardings aunswer to be vaine and doe wel expound the meaning of S. Augustine Chrysostome saith semper communicabant they did alwayes Communicate And maister Harding doeth alleage bothe him and Augustine himselfe for proofe of the daily sacrifice Now wher they say that we offer daily and yet confute sufficiently this newe fansied transubstantiation it is plaine they ment of this daily Communion and of the often vse of it maister Hardings Ignatius in like manner wryteth when this is done continually the powers of Sathan are driuen away These and diuers suche proofes may be had out of Ierome Ambrose Iustine Irenaeus and other many for this daily receiuing and therfore these vntruthes must néedes be little worthe that are so plentifully challenged and may so easily be answeared But whose aucthoritie should I rather vse in this case than maister Hardings owne Doctors they wryte it often and teache very plainly that in the primatiue Church they receiued daily Thomas Aquinas writeth thus In the primatiue church when the people were very deuout in the Christian faith it was decréed vt fideles quotidie communicarent that the faithfull people should receiue daily Durandus saith in the primatiue Church omnes fideles quotidie communicabant all the faithfull receiued daily Loe héere are maister Hardings owne Doctors which doe sufficiently answere his vntruth Here by the way of this one thing I must moreouer warne the good Christian reader that M. Harding is not able to shewe any one sufficient proofe whereby it may appeare that the Churche in any place within CCC yeares after Christ did appoint any one day especially for that purpose as their confederacie at Trident haue of late straightly charged It appeareth by S. Luke they met daily and it appeareth by Paule to the Ephesians y t they had their méetings both day and night in this vse they cōfirmed their doctrine which Paule teacheth the Colossians Let no man condemne you in meat and drinke nor in respect of an holy day or of the newe Moone or of the Sabbothe dayes And no doubt to take away this popish superstitiō of dayes times it was gods good wil and pleasure then so to ordaine it And for a ful proofe that the Churches vsed some saturday some sunday it is well shewed by that hot contention that was raised by Victor Anicetus against y e gréeke church After y e Apostles time about the yeare of our Lord .115 vnder y e Emperor Traiane it appeareth that the Christians vsuall méeting was in the mornings as is shewed by Plinie in an epistle written to the Emperoure of the same matter After this .30 or .40 yeare Iustinus doeth recorde that in his time they vsed the sonday and any other day when there was baptizing of children After this it is declared by Origen that the Christians of his time did not méete only on sundayes and holidayes but on other dayes also And Sozomene séemeth to deny of the Romaine Church that they had any meetings on the Saboth day as all other Churches had Eusebius saith quotidie ferme ad percipiendam disciplinam christi constuunt almost euery day they came to hear the doctrine of Christ. Athanasius nameth expresly these dayes sabbatum diem dominicum secundum sabbati parasceuen quartum sabbati Now if it can not be proued that any one Church made a special obseruation of the sunday but that on other dayes also they vsed like seruice vnto god
134. vntruth master Harding saide this is all to gether falsified in this he saith it is fowly corrupt But y e falshod of that hath appeared to be so little that this false reporte of corruption can haue no great credit and no dout this vntruth vppon sufficient triall shall apeare a verie wrangling Chrisostomes own words are these hoc autem sacrificium examplar est illius Reade the place These wordes as I think are thus muche in Englishe But this sacrifice is an example of that Not so saith master Harding this place is fouly corrupt Peraduenture héere is some verbe put acquisitiuely as in the .134 vntruthe If it be so héere may be straunge Latine but whether there be or no gessing is not necessary where there may be had other good proofe Let vs heare why this place is corrupt What saith M. Harding Thus he saith It is exemplar a samplar or patern of that I graunt Mark good reader what maister Harding graunteth And sée whether maister Iuel doe say any more If he doe not how are the same words true when maister Harding speaketh them and not true when maister Iuel speaketh them vnlesse as we had of late a distinction of not bread and no bread so nowe we haue an other betwéene an example a sampler But how so euer it is without example or sampler he maketh mo distinctions and giueth suche a sampler of singular impudence that no mā that feareth God wil take example by him The B. of Sarisb Gracian sheweth that the decretall epistles haue bene doubted of among the learned Harding The .139 vntruthe Gracian shevveth no such thing Dering Gracians wordes are these De Epistolis decretalibus quaeritur an vim authoritatis habeant of the decretall Epistles there is doubt whether they haue authoritie How then is this an vntruth The word saith M. Harding that Gracian doth vse is quaeritur not dubitatur The question is moued not it is doubted Offerre peregrinis to offer for straungers is very good latine where this is any reason What meaneth this man doeth he so fede his affectioned vaine that he spareth not to discredit his owne learning that he feareth not to blot his owne honestie Fye vpon such fāsies Quaeritur is a latine word dubitatur is very barbarous But such as vse them both who knoweth not y t it is cōmon to them all to say sometime quaeritur sometime dubitatur meaning by either word there is doubt moued the Gréeke phrase 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is cōmonly translated Sed quaerat aliquis But one wil aske or dout The latines do al vse it Si quaeris if you doubt In his primis naturalibus voluptas insit nec ne magna quaestio est In these first naturall abilities whether there be any pleasure or no there is no great doubt Romani augures in magna quaestione habent The Romain Augurs do much dout what the bird Sanqualis is So immensa quaestio an infinite doubt perdifficilis et perobscura quaestio a verie difficult and obscure doubt and such one as this of M. Hardings is redicula quaestio a folish doubt The barbarous writers such as Gracian is and the other rable of M. Hardings friends they want cōmonly both good words and godly matter and they say sometime dubitatur but to be short there is neither question nor doubt but this vntruthe is very childish But what meaneth M. Harding to stand thus in defence of these decretall epistles He onely can bring for them a litle testimonie of Leo and Gelasius The epistles by no meanes can commende them selues Reade the Replie thou shalt sée them sufficientlie reproued But reade the Epistles and thou shalt see them more reproued The latine is so barbarous that neyther gentile nor Christian of that age did euer wryte the like The stile is so childish it is farre vnméete for the grauitie of those learned Bishoppes whose names they beare the metaphors are so grosse as no countryman would vse the like Among all other this is one Ostium circumstantiae eorum oribus imponere To put the dore of circumstaunce vpon theyr mouthes And what scholer would write this latine Eas inde abstrahere vbi traditae sunt to take them thence where they were layde Promere vltionem to reuenge Exilium deportationis for banishment pleniter fully Haec nobis bona operanda sunt We must doe these good things Inthronizare to enstall and porto standeth them in verie good stead Portare causas sacerdotum ▪ Subleuare et portare cadentes portare persecutiones euerie one a porter like phrase and moderna tempora and charitatiue and abbatissa and sanctae moniales And I wote not what There is nothing in them doeth so excede as ignoraunce And where is the like title euer founde Archiepisc. rom vrbis and Archiepisc. cath ecclesiae Romanae vrbis And primates metropolitani and fideles sancti Petri. Beside this that poore stuffe that they haue doeth hang so yllfauouredly together that Maister Harding him selfe can make of it no sense They alleage the scriptures without order or fashion and sometime they depraue them the Sodomites say vnto Lot thou camest into vs as a straunger Anterus sayth that God spake it In the first to Timothe the fift Chapter where Paule hath vidua Vrbanus hath anima Christe saith Cephas is a stone Anacletus sayth it is caput or principium the head or fountaine And besides this sundrie of those Epistles haue worde for worde the one which an other hath As Steph. 1. et 2. And Fab. 2. Luc. 1. And Faelix .3 the Epistle of Gaius Leon .1 And how coulde this haue happened if diuers men did write them But what nede we seke arguments against them looke vpon theyr doctrine Lucius forbiddeth mariage of Priestes and if a Priest go in vnto his owne wife he muste not communicate he must not so much as bring the cup to the alter they may not come within the church dores not withstanding Saint Paule sayth to forbid mariage is the doctrine of diuells Calixtus doeth forbid meates and sayth he that obserueth not the faste foure times in a yeare the same is a scismatike Anterus and Zepherius teacheth that we may not reprehende accuse iudge or condemne a Bishoppe of Rome Yet Saint Paule sayth Let a Bishoppe be vnblamable whereby it appeareth he may be blamed and againe he writeth Receiue not an accusation against an elder vnder two ▪ or three witnesses Then by like he will haue their faultes accused They iangle much of the supremacie of the Bishoppe of Rome Calixtus and Lucius doe seeme to say that he can not erre Yet Dauid saith euerie man is a lier Stephan saith he deserueth great vengeance that presumeth to touch the holy vestures Yet Christ saith that which is without a man defileth him not Pontianus doeth ende his first Epistle with a clause of idolatrie ascribing vnto Peter the opening
of heauen gate Vrbanus saith that the sentence of a Bishop is greatly to be feared yea though he 〈◊〉 wrongfully and so consequently would makâ— God an vnrighteous Iudge that should ratifie an vniust sentence Such wicked doctrine these epistles doe conteine so vnlearnedly they be written so vnwisely the same words are fathered vpon diuerse men and which is a sure token that they be couÌ„terfet they are not mencioned by any auÌ„cient writers Yet saith Maister Harding these Epistles are authentical But let him say so still As that saying is vntrue so this vntruthe is impudent where he saith that Gracian doeth not witnesse that these Epistles haue ben doubted on The B. of Saris. The decretall epistles manifestly depraue and abuse the scriptures Harding The .140 vntruthe They doe not so Dering Now M. Harding is in his biasse He makes vntruthes at auenture and for want of good proofe he falls to railing This pelfe saith he may serue for your pulpit when you want better stuffe This to disproue y e decretall epistles is to minister like But thus to stand rayling when one hath no reason is to like a Louanist More modest behauiour in so meane learning would better stand with honestie This vntruth is sufficiently proued before The B. of Saris. Anacletus commaundeth that all bishops once in the yeare do visit the entrie of S. Peters church in Rome which they call limina Petri. Harding The .141 vntruth He commaundeth no such thing concerning Peters Church Dering This vntruth doeth rise vpon these wordes limina Petri whether they signified Peters church For Maister Harding graunteth that now they signifie the Church but then they signified his graue Here it were reason before we beleue him he should tell vs how long limina Petri did signifie the buriall place and when it left his graue and became the name of his church who gaue it to the graue and who toke it from it Undouted proues must be had for so incredible a matter It is a straunge case for things to lose their names and if it be done as sometime it chaunceth it is by the coÌ„sent of whole couÌ„tries regestred by diuers authors If in this case we sée like authoritie we will alow the better of M. Hardings saying Graues as it may be thought were neuer called so churches had that name long before Peters time Religiosa deorum limina saith Virgill the holy temples of the Gods Calixtus the Pope saith Ecclesiastica limina meaning the church Hereby it appeareth that limina Petri was Peters Church And Nauclerus writing of Totilas more than a thousand yeare agon saith Cum ad beati Petri limina peruenisset meaning when he came to Peters Church Now let Maister Harding shew that it signified the graue ere he require credit Yet what if it did so Is it not al one superstition to visit y e graues of godly men to visit their temples Is either of both commaunded by the Lord God In this vntruth Maister Harding sheweth little matter against Maister Iuel and lesse good diuinitie in him selfe The B. of Saris. Fabianus writeth of the comming of Nouatus into Italie And it is clere by S. Cyprian and by Eusebius that Nouatus came first into Italie in the time of Cornelius which was next after him Harding The .142 vntruth It is not cleare Dering To an Owles eyes the clere Sunne bringeth darkenesse to one that will not vnderstand there is no sentence plain When God shal open Maister Hardings eies he wil then sée better These are Cyprians wordes vnto Cornelius speaking of Nouatus A te illinc prohibituÌ„ ab ecclesia cum venisset c. Of thee he was forbidden the Church when he came c. And it foloweth with such spirite as became a Bishoppe whereby it appeareth he was then also Bishop What can be sayd more plaine It foloweth further Cum animaduertisâ—em te minis atque terroribus eorum qui venerant esse commotum c. WheÌ„ I perceiued that thou weart moued with the feares and threatnings of those that came with him Then belike Cornelius was there before And Eusebius speaketh at the same time of Cornelius and calleth him Vrbis Romae Episcopus the Bishop of the citie of Rome and this also appeareth by Sozomenus that the first conflict of Nouatus was with Cornelius Therefore Maister Harding might easely haue séene this had not eyther his eies ben anointed or he disposed to wrangle The B â–ª of Saris. Neither S. Ierome nor Gennadius nor Damasus euer made any mention either of such epistles or of any such decrees Harding The .143 vntruth Damasus maketh expresse mention of such decrees Dering This is an expresse vntruth as many other are which Maister Harding frameth Damasus doeth speake of certaine decrées which were made by these Popes and that we may easely graunt but that he mencioneth these epistles or reciteth the decrées in those wordes that is not shewed And it may easely be that he who made these epistles would gather some decrées founde in other bookes This is a small proufe againste so many manifest arguments The B. of Saris. By Soters decree it is lawfull to say Masse hauing onely two in his companie Harding The .144 vntruth This decree speaketh not of companie present but of two to make aunsvvere Dering There is belike some subtile distinction in this vntruth For as the wordes lye they are somewhat obscure Of this I am sure seing Maister Iuel saith that Soters decrée requireth only the companie of two and Maister Harding sayth it requireth two to make aunswere if it may any way be proued that they that aunswere the Priest be in his companie then this vntruth is sone discharged As touching Soters owne decrée the words are plaine that no man shall say Masse without two persoÌ„s and to take away this cauill about two to aunswere and to verifie Maister Iuels wordes the title of the decrée is this Except he haue two preseÌ„t let no Priest presume to say Masse Now what néedeth this wrangling about the aunswering if there be two present they must nedes aunswere The B. of Saris. S. Augustine and S. Ierome haue recouered that that the people of Rome euen in their time vsed to receiue the Communion together euery day Harding The .145 vntruth Saint Augustine and Saint Ierome doe not report so Dering This vntruth hath ben made now thrée times by Maister Harding It is the .83 the .133 this the third Augustine saith some receiue euery day some certaine dayes Ierome saith the like Reade the place thou shalt not be deceiued Read more of this vntruth in the places alleaged The 83. .133 vntruthes .155 vntruth The B. of Saris. This word solennia which is here vsed semeth to import a solemne companie or resort of the people And yet this Soter requiring to this action onely the companie of thre persons neuerthelesse calleth it Missarum solennia Harding The .146
vntruth Solennia doeth not import a solemne companie Dering Yet it séemeth so Maister Harding to as wel learned as you are But this is your common fashion to belie Maister Iuels words and then to say they be vntrue Yt séemeth saith he to import a solemne coÌ„panie What if it be not so yet it séemeth so But what if it doe import a great companie What if it can not stande with your priuate Masse Sure then is Soters decrée not worth alleaging as your vntruthe is not worth the quoting The reason that you bring out of Tullie were it not in your booke yet by the value I would gesse it yours Solemne say you doeth signifie sometime a custome Ergo when it is attributed to an action it doeth not import a companie This is verie like one of your owne arguments it hangeth so losely For the antecedent is false and the argument doth not follow But why speaketh Maister Harding against his owne knowledge he is assured it is not named in matters of religion but it signifieth a great company of persons and muche sumptuousnesse of the things so ill may his priuate Masse be solennis Mos solennis sacrarum saith Lucretius the solempne and sumptuous manner of the sacrifices And Virgil calleth them arae solennes many and costly altares so pompae solennes burials in solemne order vota solennia vowes made solemnly in the company of many and Tullie Solenne statutum sacrificium a sacrifice done sumptuously and appointed times and in M. Hardings Portuise sacris solennijs iuncta sunt gaudia to solemne seruice there is annexed ioyes This aucthoritie is sufficient against master Harding He wil say nothing I trow against his Portuise If he wil we will then charge him with the Popes owne aucthoritie Innocentius tertius shewing the cause why in their single holydayes they say not the Créede nor Gloria in excelsis as wel as they do on their double feasts wryteth thus vt inter commemorationem solennitatem differentiam ostendatur that there may be a difference betwéene a commemoration and a solemnitie Loe héere is Pope Innocent flat against maister Harding concerning the nature of the word and yet he is content to speake euen as Soter doth and say of the other Masses missarum solennia Thus we sée these vntruthes sometime can not agrée nether with their holy father the Pope neither yet with the Portuise The B. of Saris. Soter requireth to this action only the company of three Harding The .147 vntruthe He requireth not .iij. but .ij. at the least Dering Note good reader this vntruthe is now twise made in the 144. vntruthe and againe here Yet if thou way it well thou shalt sée it was not worth repetition In the other place the sense was very obscure and here the words are very strauÌ„ge To make this solemne Masse saith M. Iuel iii. are required Not so saith M. Harding the priest requireth but two to make answere But what if it happen that these two haue a thirde priest to say the Masse Soter séemeth to meane so when he saith vt sit ipse tertius that the priest may be the thirde I can not tel all their misteries It may be they haue a custome that two may make answere when no man sayth the Masse Or if they haue not then this is not vntrue The B. of Saris. It may be doubted whether dominus vobiscum were parte of the Liturgie in Soters time Harding The .148 vntruthe This cannot be wel and reasonably doubted Dering If well and reasonably doe not helpe out this vntruthe it hathe then neither goodnesse nor shew of probabilitie Now what well and reasonably may doe in this matter it shall well and reasonably appeare if you marke Damasus woords he saith there was nothing red in the Churche on sundayes sauing some Epistle of the Apostle and some chapter of the Gospell If Damasus say true then it may be doubted bothe well and reasonably whether Dominus vobiscum were red or noe This saying of Damasus maister Iuel dothe alledge and vpon little searche it will easily appeare by all Ecclesiasticall recordes that in Soters time and many yeares after there was no other solemnitie in their ministration sauing reading or expounding the scriptures and some prayers which the whole congregation did make together some say that Peter vsed to celebrate with the Lordes prayer only Paule did preache vnto them as appeareth in the Actes Iustine speaking of the Communion in his time â–ª saith Post precationem nos salutamus osculo mutuo deinde affertur precipuo fratri panis caâ—ix aqua dilutus c. After our prayers we salute one an other with a kisse then the bread is brought to the chiefest brother and the cuppe of wine and water Then the mynister giueth thanks vnto God in the name of the Sonne and of the holy ghost and the whole people doe answere Amen And if these words are not yet plaine inough by which we may doubt whether Dominus vobiscum were then in the Liturgie Iustine saith againe Die solis vrbanorum rusticorum coetus fiunt vbi apostolorum prophetarumque litera quoad fieri potest preleguntur c. On sunday we haue our metings bothe of the towne and the countrey where the Apostâ—es and prophets wrytings are red vnto vs so long as time wil serue then our mynister dothe make an exâ—ortation willing vs to folow the vertue and goodnesse whereof we reade Then we rise altogether and make our prayers Lâ—e héere is a full description of the Communion in Iustinus Martyr who liued in Soters time And yet in all this not one word making mention of Dominus vobiscum yet is maister Harding so importune in his vntruthes that he dareth boldly affirme and yet hath no grounde that Dominus vobiscum was then parte of their seruice Let him shewe but one sufficient recorde for proofe of that he wryteth and let him haue his vntruthe I know our decretall Epistles would be of this age and they defile Gods sacraments as becommeth that adulterous generation But those epistles as I haue sufficiently already shewed are far vnworthy those godly fathers whose names they beare The B. of Saris. Further this same Soter requireth that bothe these two and as many others as be present make answere vnto the priest Harding The .149 vntruthe He requireth it not this is vtterly false Dering Note good reader maister Hardings impudencie and take héede of his lying spirite he saith very censoure like this is vtterly false and in his Reioinder raileth much at M. Iuel for falsifying the Doctours and yet most impudently he dothe vtterly belie him Read his booke he doth not bring one letter to proue that he saith Belike he is wel persuaded his friends wil beleue him if he doe but say the worde but to bring some proofe against maister Hardings bare word vpon these words of Soter let him haue two at the least to aunswere
it is plaine inough they shold be two of the clergie Now iudge whether maister Iuel may say thus the glose hath determined it As touching the allegation of these aucthorities out of maister Hardings Doctors séeing he dothe so vnwisely reprehend it bicause master Iuel alleageth their sayings yet aloweth not their religion May it please him to be answered as Tullie said to Antonie testimonium tuum quod in aliena re leue debet esse in tua tamen quia contra te est debet esse grauissimum this their witnesse which in an other matter were of no value yet in their owne bicause it is against thē selues it must néedes be very waightie This other vntruthe as touching Anacletus is like the residue vpon examination of the woords let the reader iudge Thus saith Anacletus Episcopus deo sacrificans testes secum habeat in solennioribus quippe diebus aut 7. aut 5. aut 3. diaconos c. By this it is shewed that at euery ministration he shold haue some of the clergie Now the glose of that other Decrée determining that those two should be of the clergie let the indifferent reader iudge whether it doeth agrée with this decrée of Anacletus and so he shall sée the better what maner of vntruthes these are The B. of Saris. M. Harding knoweth well that these decrees which are here rehersed could neuer be found written Harding The .154 vntruth I knovv it not Dering The councels are extant and the thing is plaine these decrées are not in them But saith Maister Harding peraduenture thrée hundred yeare a gone Gratian did sée them though they neuer came to our hands Now sure this is a straunge paraduenture Gratian liued 800. yeares after the councell was holden at Agatha and if those decrées had remained so long peraduenture they might haue bidden .300 yeares mo and so we should haue knowne of them But seing the matter is but at peraduenture at all aduentures let vs graunt it What troweth Maister Harding bicause that by gesse he proueth his priuate Masse therfore shall gesses be of value to make vntruthes He had néede shew better euidence that would take away Maister Iuels good name The B. of Saris. It is decreed that they which receiue not at Christmas Easter Whitsontide be accompted as no catholikes Then except a few massing priestes there is not one catholike in the church of Rome Harding The .155 vntruth This is a slaunderous lye Dering The councell holden at Agatha hath decréed thus the seculer men that receiue not the Communion at Christmasse Easter and Whitsuntide let them not be taken or reckned for catholike people Herevpon Maister Iuel saith if it be so in the holy church of Rome sauing a fewe Massing Priestes there is not one catholike The reason is For they receiue but euerie Easter and whether they haue vsed it or no let all the world witnesse I doe appeale herein to the conscience of the rankest papists whosoeuer they be let the vsage of that time be a triall whether they vsed then only to receiue or no. What holy fashions were then vsed aboue other times What shriuing What dispeling What curteine drawing What primerose gathering What cleckclacking What roode sweating What crossecreping What Iacke an apes walking from the altar to the idol house What wickednesse was there vsed againste that one time of their sinfull receiuing Who knoweth it not that this is true Yet saith Maister Harding it is a slanderous lye it is an impudent tale a false slaunder an impudent surmise a manifest vntruth such one as may be sene the nouice of him that is the father of lies If this may be beleued we sée how against all certain trueth he will spew out his venome But God haue the glory that hath giuen his children vertue against such poison For the vntruth I say as before let the world iudge The B. of Saris. I haue alreadie proued by Saint Augustine and Saint Ierome that Communion was ministred in Rome euerie day Harding The .155 vntruth This is proued by neither of them Dering Double on Maister Harding Your number shall grow the better This is now the fourth time that this vntruth is reconed that the thing is true I haue sufficiently declared before Now bicause the matter so falleth out that M. Iuel alleaging foure times these things of Augustine and Ierome M. Harding noteth them for foure vntruths I must craue of thée a litle to consider them Ieromes wordes are these I know this custome is at Rome that christian folke receiue the bodie of Christ dayly which I doe neither reproue nor alow These wordes it séemeth are méetely plaine Maister Harding aunswereth thus Héere mencion is made only of dayly receiuing but that they receiued together in one place that is not auouched If any man can sée any reason in this aūswere let the vntruth go Now as touching Augustine he sayth thus Christ by way of sacrament is offered euerie day vnto the people not at Easter only but euery day This authority bicause it is somewhat plaine Maister Harding skippeth it ouer and aunswereth not at all Augustine sayth againe the dayly bread may be takē pro sacramento corporis christi quod quotidie accipimus for the sacramēt of Christes bodie wich we receiue dayly To this authoritie Maister Harding doth aunswere thus Saint Augustine might meane that of him selfe and other Priestes or which is more likely he spake indefinitely of all beleuers Thus with might meane and more likely M. Harding would warrant this one vntruth to be .v. But he him selfe might meane more simply then it were more likely these vntruthes had ben fewer but let vs sée more S. Augustine saith againe many in the Easte doe not dayly cōmunicate Of this M. Iuel inferreth Therefore some in the Easte did cōmunicate dayly To this M. Harding aunswereth somewhat shamefully Of y e thing I contend not but yet M. Iuels argumēt is not good Marke good Reader M. Hard ▪ saith of y e thing he wil not cōtend yet he maketh v. vntruths of it But let this go S. Augustine saith againe the sacramēt of this thing is prepared or consecrate in the church Alicubi quotidie alicubi certis interuallis dierum somewhere euerie daye and somewhere but on certaine dayes To this Maister Harding aunswereth thus the sacrament in some places is prepared euerie daye by priestes and by the same priests is euery day receiued these are the proofes which Maister Iuel saith here that he hath brought Maister Harding noteth his vntruthe and sayth they proue it not whether they do or no. Now let the Reader iudge Except Maister Hardings aunsweres had ben better this vntruth needeth no longer iustifying The B. of Saris. Fabian saith we decree that euerie sondaie the oblation of the altar be made both of bread and wine as well by men as women Here besides that in these wordes
is included the receiuing of the Communion euerie sonday may be noted also by the way that by this authoritie of Fabian men and women made the sacrifice of the alter euen as S. Barnard saith Not onely the priest but also all the faithfull sacrifice do Harding The .157 vntruthe It is not included that they receiue euerie sunday The .158 vntruth Fabian doeth not attribute the making of the sacrifice to men and vvomen The .159 vntruth S. Barnard saith it not Dering This first vntruthe is that though they offred euerie sunday bread and wine yet it foloweth not that they receiued But this Maister Harding sayth onely and besyde gesses hath no sufficient proufe for it In fine thus he resolueth the matter This bread and wine was partly for the priest alone to receiue partly for the cleargie partly for the poore and partely to make holy bread of so this is become a verie beneficiall vntruth vnto Maister Harding it hath not onely encreased his number but it hath brought in an other article of his religion and that is at all a verie venture holy bread Here were good roome for one of Maister Hardings aunsweres this pelfe will not serue you must go séeke better stuffe The second vntruth here brought is this that men and women doe not make this sacrifice Fabians words are these Haec altaris oblatio ab omnibus viris et muâ—eribus fiat let this sacrifice of the alter be made of all men and women These words I trow are meetely plaine but Maister Harding aunswereth thus There is difference betwene an oblation and a sacrifice oblation is it when any thing is offered vnto the Lorde nothing done vnto it or in it A sacrifice is when a thing offred vnto God is by the priest altered by some thing don in it or vnto it for religion sake so the common people made the oblation of the alter but they made not the sacrifice of the alter It were to be wished good christian Reader that these distinctions were barred then we should haue lesse wrangling and fewer vntruths But they say all is well that endes well if by examination this distinction be founde good why should not Maister Harding vse it Theophilacte saith he Chrisostome and Paule him selfe haue so distinguished these words First though they hadde done so yet this were but a meane reason to proue they were in like sort vsed in Fabian The profe of Fabians meaning may not well be shewed but by Fabian him selfe But let vs sée what these Doctours saye on whome Maister Harding will â–ª grounde this distinction Theophilactus wordes are these Inter donum siue munus et hostiam siue victimam si exactam spectes rationem aliquid est discriminis quia victimae vel hostiae sunt per sanguineÌ„ et carnem oblationes vel quae per ignem sacrificantur dona sunt quaecunque alia incruenta et igni carentia Betwene 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is gifts and sacrifices this is the difference that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a sacrifice is an oblation made with fleshe and bloud or by fire 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a gift is that which is offred vnbloudie and without fire Of this place M. Harding doeth conclude that an oblation is a thing offered vnto God without any thing done vnto it but this argument hangeth as losely as any other commonly in M. Hardings booke A gift whereof Theophilacte speaketh is is in Greke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an oblation whereof M. Harding speaketh is in Gréeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So his reasoÌ„ hangeth thus A gift is that which without fire or bloud is offred vnto God as an oblation is that which hath nothing done vnto it This argument Christian Reader this is his owne reason neither better nor worse than he hath made it His second authoritie is out of Chrisostome his wordes likewise are these Oblatio erat quicquid extra sacrificium erat that was the oblation what so euer was beside the sacrifice and more than this he saith not now of these words how M. Hard. can frame his auÌ„swere to this authoritie of Fabian doutlesse no man that meaneth plainly can espie This is Chrisostomes meaning y â— dona were all those sacrifices or offerings prescribed saue onely such as were sinne offrings But M. Harding goeth further forâ—eth S. Paule as if of him he had learned his distinction how be it he neuer spake one word of it Yea the places by M. Hard â–ª alleaged do not so much as once name oblation then how doth he make this exacte difference of oblations Surely no authoritie had ben much better than these thrée nothing to the purpose In the meane season by M. Hardings good skil we may chaunge our coÌ„mon vse of speaking say no more burnt offring meate offring peace offring sin offering c. but rather thus burnt sacrifice meate sacrifice peace sacrifice sinne sacrifice so forth A proper distinction méete to interprete Fabian that coÌ„trolleth thus the phrase of the scripture Here foloweth yet an other vntruth that is about these words Non solus sacerdos sacrificat sed etiam totus conuentus fidelium Not only the priest sacrificeth but also all the companie of the faithfull This saith M. Harding is not true in M. Iuels sense For saith he that euery one of the people both men women in their own person do outwardly ministerially coÌ„secrate y e bodie bloud of Christ so offer make the sacrifice of the alter after the order of Melchisedech neither is it signified by the blessed martir S. Fabian neither was it euer before M. Iuels Replie came forth with such impudencie reported Better had it ben for M. Harding more credit for his vntruth if he had rested here y t M.I. named Bernard in stead of Guerricus For this report of M. Iuels meaning is nothing else but impudent folie For who would euer say that M. Iuels meaning is y e men and women sayd Masse such vntruth can be no better reproued than by shewing Maister Hardings proues The B. of Saris. But what if the verie words of these councels where vpon M. Harding hath found the Masse make manifest proofe against his Masse The words be these All secular christian folke be bound to receiue the communion at the least thrice in the yeare This relaxation or priuiledge is graunted onely to the secular christians whereof it foloweth necessarily that all ecclesiasticall persons as Priests Deacons Clerkes and others whatsoeuer of that sort were not excepted but stode still bounde to receiue orderly as they had done before and that was at all times whensoeuer there was any ministration Harding The .160 vntruth These be not the words of the councel The .161 vntruth This is no relaxation or priuiledge The .162 vntruth The ecclesiastical persons were not bound to receiue whensoeuer there was any ministration
impudens est procax Whosoeuer is present and dothe not Communicate he is shamelesse and malapert And in diuers places he warneth them to cease their euil doing with oft repetition of the dreadfull mysteries And to what purpose were that if they receiued not commonly The aucthoritie that is alleaged out of Augustine is taken out of Ambrose and it may wel be answered with the aucthoritie againe of Augustine taken out of Cyprian Hunc panem dari nobis quotidie postulamus c. This bread saith he we desire that it may be daily giuen vnto vs. c. Least while we be denied that heauenly breade we be seperate from the bodye of Christ. Héereby it appeareth in their assemblies the most of them receiued and to this effecte maister Iuel dothe alleage Conc. Matisc. 2 cap. 40. Concil Antisiodor Can. 42. Car. mag lib. 6. cap. 162. Now how so euer it liketh maister Harding to accept it all this must néedes stande for sufficient proofe For this seconde vntruthe héere brought that the contrarye is shewed by sundry recordes of this that we haue said it appeareth that this shewe as it is againe shewed is nothing worth Therefore the vse of receiuing in those dayes was as it is recorded euery sunday at the least but the receiuing in the Popes dayes is euery Easter and so both these vntruths are become none The B. of Saris. It was decreed by a councell holden at Gerunda in Spaine that all litle Churches in the countrey shold confourme them selues vnto the great cathedrall churches that were in cities and townes as well for order of the Communion as also for singing and other ministration But by M. Hardings owne graunt there was no priuate Masse in the cathedrall Churches Harding The .165 vntruth That councell speaketh neuer a vvorde in that canon of the Communion The .166 vntruthe I neuer made any suche graunt Dering Beleue not this mannes saying gentle reader if thou loue thine owne soule Marke first the aucthorities ere thou credite his reporte The words of the councel are these vt institutio missarum sicut in Metropolitana ecclesia agitur ita in dei nomine in omni Terraconensi prouincia tam ipsius missae ordo quam psallendo vel ministrando consuetudo seruetur That the institution of Masses euen as it is done in the Metropolitane Churches so in the name of God we wil that in al the prouince of Terraconia the same custome be kept in order in singing and in mynistration This canon is reported by Gracian who in stead of Terraconia putteth in all prouinces least maister Harding should make exception of any one countrey But saith he this decrée speaketh neuer a worde of the Communion Yet this decrée hath these expresse woords The institution of the Masse the order the maner of singing and the mynistration And the title of this decrée in Gracian is this as in the cathedrall Churches sic vbique missarum solennia celebrentur so euery where let the solemnitie of the Masse be kept and the glose saith Ostendit quod missa non debet aliter celebrari quam in Metropolitana ecclesia he sheweth that the Masse must be celebrated no otherwise than in the cathedrall Churches If the Communion in the Masse be no part of the institution nor order nor ministration it is a strange Communion and it is a straunge Masse that may be instituted and ministred without it But be it that this were so is maister Harding so vncourteous to his close Communion that he wil haue it no part of the solemnitie of his Masse He doth thē deserue very ill of it For it hath more prety gestures than all the Masse beside But what if maister Harding will denye all this What if he care neither for councel nor yet for Gracian What if he say it is no part of the institution order ministration nor yet of the solemnitie yet he cannot auoid y e glose that speaketh expresly without naming any circumstaunce that the Masse must be celebrate no otherwise in small Churches than it is in the Metropolitane churche Now except M. Harding do meane to teache vs by these distinctions that the Communion is no parte of the Masse it must be ministred in all Churches alike This is a miserable cause that M. Harding hath that to defend it must either fall into this absurditie that the Communion is no part neither of the institution of the Masse nor of the manner of singing nor of the order nor of the ministration nor of the solemnity nor of the Masse it self or else he must confesse this is no vntruth Now where he saith further for this other vntruth that he made no suche graunt that in cathedrall Churches there was no priuate Masse if it be true what a vain argument made he when he gessed at priuate Masse in little villages by the vse of Cathedral churches Reasoning after this sort that séeing ther were so few Communicants in the great citie of Antioche what was to be thought of small parishes Héere may wel appeare a secrete graunt that priuate Masses must be had in small townes in the countrey or else no where The B. of Saris. It appeareth by most certaine and vndoubted proofes that the people did receiue then euery sunday Harding The .167 vnt It appeareth not by ought that here is brought Dering In the .157 vntruthe master Harding said this was a foule vntruthe Héere he saith it is vntrue for ought that héere is brought so he somwhat qualifieth his former saying But yet this doing is straunge bicause the thing is certaine to make exception against the proofe more modestie might well haue yelded vnto the truthe How be it considering it is M. Hardings doing it is y e more sufferable Poets and painters may not be limitted in their inuentiōs But least the christian reader should be deceiued and haue some confidence of this vntruthe bicause it is twise reckened let vs sée these proofes which maister Harding saith are so vnsufficient The one is Decernimus vt omnibus dominicis diebus c. We decrée that euery sunday the oblation of the aultar be made of euery mā and woman This aucthority séemeth very sufficient if y e time do preiudice it in that thi◠councell was holden more than C. yeares after the councell of Agatha maister Harding must vnderstand it is an argument Minorae They receiued euery sunday in the time of the councel holden at Matiscona Ergo muche rather when the councel was at Agatha And in déede from that time our sauior Christ ascēded vntill the Pope sate aloft in the Church of God euery age as it was nearer vnto Christes time so they had more commonly their Communions The second profe y t M. Iuel bringeth is this vnaquaeque mulier c. Euery womā when she doth communicate let hir haue hir Dominical If she haue it not let hir not Communicate vsque in alium diem
his priuate Masse hath sought for Iohn Almonar in a priuate Chapple but the question is moued of the open church This Iohn Almonar liued at the least .610 yeares after Christ. The question is of .600 yeares onely So this fable may be well reiected both for that it is nothing to the purpose and if it were yet it is without the compasse of .600 yeares Yet Maister Iuel admitting the proofe doeth proue that it is a verie fable His reason is bicause no man might saye Masse at home Here let vs make the best of Maister Hardings aunswere and it is thus They might not say Masse in theyr houses but they might say them in their Chappels This aunswere is very absurde For who would say masse in his parlour or hall or kitchin hauing a Chapple And it is knowne to be false and taken away by Gracian saying Vnicuique fidelium in domo sua oratorium habere licet et ibi orare missas autem ibi concelebrare non licet euery man may haue a Chapple in his house pray there but he may not haue Masse in it Thus appeareth how vaine Maister Hardings exception is against these former authorities for that they haue in Domibus in their houses when Gracian alleaging the councell of Auleria vseth this word oratorium a Chaple notwithstanding Maister Harding concludeth thus we must seeke for better stuffe this is nothing worth so much securitie haue these men promised them selues that whatsoeuer they speake they think it shalbe beleued The B. of â–ª Saris. Maister Harding translateth falsâ—ly cum benedixisset sancta â–ª when he had consecrate the Sacrament Likewise post finem orationum after the prayer of consecration Harding The .177 vntruthe That translation is true The .178 vntruthe That translation is true Dering Now that this Apostata hath vomited vp a litle poisoned affection against the blessed bishop of Sarisburie he is laide downe againe like a swine to wallow in his former mire and as blinde bayard running forth he knoweth not whether quoteth mo vntruthes of his owne making My translation saith he is true His reasoÌ„ is this some doctors doe expounde benedicere for consecrare therefore that is so And the Grecians said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sancta sanctis therfore sancta is the Sacrament If Maister Harding that in his long epistle would so faine haue ben Appelles could with all his cunning picture out these argumentes we should haue the right shape of a fooles bable Benedicere saith he is construed of S. Ambrose by consecrare ergo it is so But it is construed otherwise by the Euangelists therefore it is not so Where S. Mathew and S. Marke say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when he had blessed he brake S. Luke and S. Paule say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when he had giuen thankes he brake Yea bothe Mathewe and Marke them selues say of the cuppe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when he had giuen thanks he gaue it Then if Benedixit be he did consecrate then Gratias egit is also he did consecrate and so the .180 vntruthe is verified that master Harding calleth some things that are not as if they were And I would faine know why maister Harding cleaueth so to this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it maketh nothing for his transubstantiation It is written in the Scripture 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 God blessed the seuenth day yet he turned not the nature of it So God speaketh vnto Abraham 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Surely in blessing I will blesse thée yet God vsed no manner of consecration so saith S. Paule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Who hath blessed vs in all manner of spirituall blessing In diuers other places of holy scripture thisword is vsed yet no where for this straunge manner of transubstantiation or other consecration than which we say in Latine consecrare which is to giue vp to ordaine to appoynt to an holy vse though it may be well said of the sacrament yet it is not in Gréeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but rather 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so that why he should translate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to consecrate there is no cause except suche cause as will haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifie nothing But saithe maister Harding some Doctors haue translated Benedicere by Consecrare Let vs graunt it suche is the libertie of speache that some worde is vsed in an impropre signification Dothe it folow bicause Benedicere may be to consecrate therfore Benedicere sancta is to consecrate the sacrament This gathering is very childishe Extruo is to builde vp Therfore is extruere mensam to build or make a table Interpello is to disturbe or interrupt therefore is interpellare debitoreÌ„ to interrupt or disturbe your debtour Expendere is to consider therfore is expendere poenas to consider punishment Sure this is a very idle proofe though Benedicere were to consecrate and sancta were the sacrament But now it is shewed that Benedicere is not to consecrate and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not the sacrament as Maister Iuel sheweth out of Chrysostome And in da de what reason is it that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sancta sanctis should be the sacrament not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sancta sanctorum should be likewise the sacrament Now for as muche as maister Harding cleaueth so vnto the Doctors that what so euer they say he straight taketh it for an Oracle we may say vnto him as our Sauior said vnto the Iewes Euen Moses in whome you trust shall be a witnesse against you so the Doctors shall be witnesses against master Harding and his felowes that when the Doctors do require to be iudged by the scriptures yet they without scriptures will ground their faith vpon them Cursed be he saith the Prophet that trusteth in man and maketh fleshe to be his arme For my parte I reuerence the Doctors and praise God for them they were good stewards and dispensed faithfully the goodes that were committed vnto them they were men of excellent learning great diligence and godly life and haue sufficiently confuted maister Hardings religion but yet they were men and had all their erroures Tertullian sayd God had a body and therefore he was reprehended of Augustine He thought not well in all poyntes of our sauioure Christe as appeareth in his bookes de Trinitate and aduersus Hermogenem Praxeam where he teacheth that Christe is a portion of his father Origen in diuers places wryteth very wickedly as appeareth by Epiphanius annumbring him among heretikes Cyprian sayde that Christe did satisfie onely for Originall sinne Methodius sayd we are iustified by fulfilling the lawe of nature as Epiphanius reporteth These were wicked heresies The doctors that folowed after had also many and great faultes I néede not recken maister Hardings Doctors Clemens Abdias Martialis Dyonisius Hyppolitus and suche other
they confute themselues these others are the most auntient of any credite And as they haue these and sundry other erroures so from age to age in all writers erroures did still growe great controuersies were betwene the Gréekes and Latine church The matter is too plaine it néedeth no further proofe and no doubt the spirite of God foreséeing these daungerous times that shold ensue when men should make Gods of those holy Fathers grounding their faithe on them as on the true foundation the holy Ghost I say did leaue them to their owne fansies and suffred them to erre to declare that they were but men and that we should builde no further on them than they did builde vpon Christ but examine all sayings bothe theirs and oures by the euerlasting woord of God the only lanterne vnto our féeâ—e and the onely light vnto our steppes which thing God for his Christes sake graunte vs euermore to doe Amen For this other translation post finem orationum after the prayer of consecration which is the 178. vntruthe it is as soone proued to be yll as maister Harding hath aduenturously sayde it is good He saith they are Orationes that are after Consecration and precationes which are before and for this distinction he alleageth S. Augustine Héere christian reader thou hast to note two things First the distinction then maister Hardings argument As touching the distinction that there are no Orationes till consecration is past that is very false the Masse booke it selfe hath Oremus I wote not howe many times before they are at their saccaring and I trow he that made the Masse booke knewe what was in the Masse Nowe for the argument sée how it hangeth This it is Prayers after consecration are called Orationes Ergo Post finem orationum is when consecration is done I may with as good a reason as that argue thus Pomeridianum tempus is the after noone Ergo Peracto pomeridiano tempore is immediatly after .xij. of the clocke This is euen such an other argument and master Hardings hangeth as losely as it Thus if we will graunt M. Harding all his proofes he will bothe make his Massebooke a lier and frame againe as euil argumeÌ„ts as he maketh in his answer The B. of Sarisb In these words cum benedixisset sancta there is no mention of any sacrament Harding The .179 vntruthe It is necessarily implied though not in precise words Dering Is not this a straunge kinde of dealing The word is not there saith M. Iuel that is vntrue saith maister Harding the meaning is necessarily implied What néede any answer to such vntruthes as haue nether shame nor vnderstanding Likewise the next vntruthe which is the .180 whether maister Harding call things that are not as though they are bicause it is once mentioned in the .177 vntruthe I recken it not here worth the touching The B. of Saris. I haue already proued by sundry aucthorities that Missa is often times vsed for any kinde of prayer c. and it further appeareth also by the councell of Cabilon Harding The .181 vntruthe It is not yet proued The .182 vntruthe It appeareth not by the councel of Cabilon Dering Maister Harding shall doe well to deny M. Iuels proofeâ— when he hath reproued them and till that be done he were best say nothing Men may not now be ledde with his bare woord What master Iuels proofes are let the Reply be iudge For the other vntruth about the councell of Cabilon maister Harding vseth a great deale of wraÌ„gling and litle learning For maister Iuel dothe alleage Gratians owne woords as he reporteth it out of the councell O saith maister Harding the councel hath it not If it be so then the vntruthe is Gratians and not master Iuels and so M. Harding falleth out with his friends But to cloke the matter againe where the words as Gratian reporteth them are auditis missarum solennibus vespertinis officijs He saith it is ment of the feast of the foure times wheÌ„ it was lawful to say Masse at night Those times were as I suppose the first wéeke of Marche the seconde of Iune the thirde of September and the fourth wéeke of December but these first times liked not Vrbanus therefore he turned them into the first wéeke of Lent and into Whitsuntide and so we had the spring fast the summer fast the haruest fast and the winter fast that by these .iiij. bookes or hingels of the world we might be taught euen as with the foure Euangelies bothe what to preache and what to doe Thus haue maister Hardings holy Popes pulled out of Goddes Churche Gods eternall gospels and made vs newe gospels of their owne and of those times saith maister Harding that decrée is ment at which times Masse might be sayde at night But yet as I remember in Lent we had not many Masses at night but in the forenoone we had Euensong and all least the Euening prayer should be to long Then if it be so what doe these fasts héere to make answer for their Masse notwithstanding suche obseruation of dayes and monthes and times yet Masse in this place must signifie common prayer and so this is no vntruthe Or Masse was celebrate at night and then what meaneth the .81 vntruthe Read it The B. of Saris. M. Harding seeketh for his Masse at Alexandria a thousand miles out of Christendome Harding The .183 vntruthe Alexandria is not a thousand miles out of Christendome Dering In the .171 vntruthe where maister Iuel saith about which time Mahomet spreade his religion in Arabia maister Harding quoteth his vntruthe and saith Mahomet was not about that time and yet he was at the vtmost within .xix. yeres of that time now almost .1000 yeres past And this is strange dealing that of things done .1000 yeares past within xix yeares compasse we may not say they were done about one time Yet as though maister Harding there had done very well he doeth againe the like in this place sayth he Alexandria is not a thousand mile out of Christendome and bicause he will appeare constant he maketh this againe the .218 vntruthe so little is he ashamed of his owne folly And nowe what skilleth it whether it be iust a thousande mile off or else want a mile or two of it Is maister Harding euer the neare his priuate Masse Yet take away two poore Ilands Cyprus and Creta a .1000 mile a sunder and either of them .500 miles from christendome And M. Harding cannot proue y t any part of Alexandria is not a .1000 mile from christendome then this exact computation of miles in so néedelesse a matter may rather argue wranglyng than proue an vntruthe The B. of Saris. In the Tripartite historie it is written thus Gregorie Nazianzene in a little Oratorie at Constantinople 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 made assemblies of people Harding The .184 vntruthe It is not written so Dering This curious inquisition about words which preiudice
heresie was in the greatest rage which was after that Valens hadde raised the great persecution for it And this also thou shalt finde written in Socrates Now these authorities standing thus as thou shalt finde them by examination what will Maister Hardings perhaps excuse him Sure that these manie vntruthes stande vpon no grounde but his impudent facings The B. of Saris. Maister Hardings Amphilochius saith that Basil foretolde the death of Iulian Theodoretus saith it was one Iulianus Sabba and not S. Basil. Harding The .190 vn Theodoretus saith not that Sabba foretold it The .192 vn ▪ He saith not that Basil did not tell it Dering Maister Harding hath but a little way to go and hath yet a great manie vntruths to make Therfore taking good holde in time in these words Sabba foretold it and not Basil he picketh it two vntruths One that Sabba tolde it not the other that Basil tolde it He might with as much facilitie haue made the thirde that and is a coniunction should couple two wordes and sentences together But here by the way note that Amphilochius telleth a fowle popish tale an ilfauored vntruth which Maister Harding thinketh good to skip ouer for shame and with a good courage goeth forward making the reader beleue al is wel Reade the Replie Fol. 83. Now to these vntruthes If Sabba dyd foretell the death of Iulian then notwithstanding Maister Hardings numbring yet Basil foretolde it not Then héere is the controuersie whether Theodorete saith that Iulianus Sabba did tell it first Then reade the place and thou shalt finde it thus When Libanius doeth aske of Sabba what the Carpenters sonne was now a doing Sabba aunswereth that the maker of the worlde whome he in mockage dyd call the Carpenters sonne was making sandapilam a héere to carie dead bodies and sone after the Emperour dyed Then it foloweth in y e next chapter that the same day that Iulian died Resciuit cecidisse Sabba knew he was dead and tolde it vnto his felowes Now iudge who was the first teller of these newes before the Emperour was dead Sabba tolde Libanius his beare was a making the same daye that he died he tolde it abrode Now Basil being then not present with the Emperour as likewise Sabba was not but did know it miraculouslie how could S. Basil tell it before him No doubt good Reader when Maister Harding made two vntruthes of this he had either slender iudgement or verie yll choise The B. of Saris. Maister Hardings Amphilochius saith Nazianzen was present at Basils death Nazianzen him selfe saith he came afterwarde Harding The .193 vntruth Nazianzen saith not so in his Monodia Dering Maister Harding saith in his reioinder he will not denie that this is true Reade his booke is not this a strange matter y t he noteth that for an vntruth which he will not denie but it is a truth Yf he haue no thing to say but that it is not in his Monodia what skilleth it so the thing be truely reported whether the place be noted at all or no I doe easely graunt that Maister Iuel may be well deceiued in keping iust reconing of bookes and chapters but that is a slender fault when he reporteth all that is written truely Now to proue that this is true and that Nazianzen was not at Basils death it is manifest that he was at Arianzum his owne patrimonie and made his Epitaphe and oration vpon Basil one whole yeare after Basil was dead And whē he hadde done he went home againe as it is sufficiently proued by Grigorie Nissene And Gregorius Presbiter doeth witnesse the same that Nazianzen came long after that Basil was dead thus graunting that it be not founde in Nazianzens Monodia yet by other good witnesse Amphilochius is proued a lier Now for misnaming the place alleaging the authoritie truely I shall néede to make no longe aunswere The fault is so small that it doth excuse it selfe The B. of Saris. Maister Hardings Amphilochius is so impudent to say Nazianzen came in all hast and saw the blessed bodie and fell vpon it when it was buried Harding The .194 vntruthe Amphilochius saith not he fell vpon him vvhen he vvas buried Dering In this vntruth is nothing but a little wrangling about this saying when he was buried Which wordes whether they be in Amphilochius or no I meane not yet to go to Verona and looke Sure it is he could not fall on him when he was couered with moulde and sith the matter is no weightier let it rest for me Now Maister Harding skippeth ouer one other lie and maketh no defence of Amphilochius writing it but leaues that altogither vntouched for a testimonie what him selfe thinketh of Amphilochius After all this a doe about him he giueth him ouer with this round conclusion be he as he is I neither defend him nor condemne him he is ashamed any further to defende him bicause he is a shamelesse lier and yet he wil not condemne him bicause he maketh a tale for Maister Hardings Masse In the meane season we haue some gesse what the author is when his great friendes dare not defend him Now Maister Harding skippeth ouer two leaues at once and so draweth to an ende The B. of Saris. Chrysostome saith some are called and some are brought to receiue with the Priest diuis 34. Harding The .195 vntruth Chrisostome saith not so Dering If M. Harding did now begin his wrangling it were peraduenture requisite more at large to blame it but bicause it is common y e reader I trust is alredie forewarned to beleue nothing that he saith without some other witnesse Therefore his credit being thus broken the proofe of this vntruth being so slender there is no great daunger least any man should take hurt by it I will omit therefore further proofe of Maister Iuels saying and I onely require to consider this maner of vntruth Thus Maister Iuel alleageth Chrisostoms words Some are called some brought to receiue with y e priest That is not so saith Maister Harding they are not called to receiue with the Priest This then must be iudged by Chrisostome he writeth thus The Deacon standing vpright in the sight of all the people c. Some he calleth to communicate and some he putteth off Now how can any indifferent man say ▪ that Maister Iuell misreporteth these wordes But so it is Maister Harding hath shut from him all indifferencie and doeth let affection miserably blinde his vnderstanding and by that meanes hath espied this vntruth and the vntruth is that Chrisostome hath not these wordes with the Priest but they are Maister Iuels owne addition But what meaneth he Doth he think the people did receiue without y e priest or if they did not when Chrisostome saith they were called to receiue how is it vntrue to report his saying they were called to receiue with the priest Doe these vntruths néede many words to
iustifie them or were not silence the best aunswere to so great folies Let the Reader iudge The B. of Saris. If no bodie receiued then is it not true that some receiued Harding The .196 vntruth Chrisostome saith not that some receiued Dering If the last vntruthe were not worth the noting then what store hath he that is faine to number it twice Yet so it is this purposed number hath driuen M. Harding to such inconuenience The former vntruthe was Chrisostome said not some receiued with the priest this is he saith not some receiue if he would make the third that some receiue not with it had euen as good reason as either of these But let these vntruthes alone they cannot doe much harme Onely I must admonish thée that after this long ado with Maister Iuel Maister Harding for his exercise will fights little with him selfe Here he saith that Chrisostome saith not that some receiue yet out of this same place of Chrisostome alleaging these wordes Cum timore dei et fide et dilectione accedite he doeth english them thus come you vp to receiue with the feare of God c. These cōtrary sayings without one vntruth cannot be reconciled If there he wel translated it come vp to receiue then this is no vntruth If this be vntrue then that was a false translation One of these can not be denied The B. of Saris. He saith the people in the Cities were daylie taught by sermons Harding The .197 vntruthe I say not so let my booke be iudge Dering Maister Harding by like doth say and vnsay and careth not what he say These are his verie wordes Now if Chrisostome had cause to complaine of the peoples slacknesse in that great and populous citie of Antioche where the scriptures were daily expounded and preached c. And here I say as Maister Harding saith let his booke be iudge And why then is this vntruth scored vp with other Would he haue vs think that this preaching were onely in Antioche and no where else This might well be if papistrie hadde ben then in vre and preaching not regarded But to think it of that world in which good religion florished and Gods word was plentifull it is an vncharitable gessing Thus much I speake graunting Maister Hardings wordes that in Antioche the people were daily taught And then if it were so the same vse had ben likewise kept in other cities so Maister Hardings owne wordes going for true this can be no vntruth but how true those wordes are Maister Iuel doeth sufficiently proue reade his Replie he doeth alleage Chrysostomes owne wordes to proue that in Antioche they had sermons but once a wéeke and therevpon he saith further thus The B. of Saris. I note this not for that I mislike of daily preaching but for that vntruth so boldelie presumed should not passe vntouched Harding The .198 vntruth It is no vntruth Dering I am sorie to trouble the reader with aunswering to so vaine vntruthes but so it is if nothing should be said they would be thought of some force Maister Harding vseth this reason to proue his priuate Masse In Antiochie there was but a verie few to communicate sometime Therfore in the countrey belike there was priuate Masse Of this argument Maister Iuel saith thus to aduaunce the citie to abase the countrey he saith in cities they had dayly sermons but this is vntrue For in Antioche they had not so Now rise M. Hardings two vntruthes 1. I say not they were taught so in cities 2. They were taught so in Antioche Who could haue scraped out these vntruthes but he Or what force is there in them For this second vntruth where he still affirmeth they had dayly preaching in Antioche that is a very false lie and yet how impudently doth be persist in it The B. of Saris. Yet saith Maister Harding in small countrey churches either the Priest let cease the dayly sacrifice or else he receiued alone Harding The .199 vntruth I say not so This is altogether falsified Dering I pray God Maister Harding be not altogether without grace He so vnreuerently speaketh euill of authoritie so boldely denieth his owne sayings that his cause is much to be feared Marke here Maister Iuels wordes I will lay M. Hardings wordes with them then iudge whether here be any vntruth Thus he writeth of such countrey churches it must be sayd that either the sacrifice ceased c. Or that the memorie of our Lords death was oftentimes celebrated of the Priestes in the daily oblation without tarying for others to communicate with them Marke now how Maister Iuel chaungeth these wordes either the daily sacrifice ceased saith Maister Harding either the priest let cease the daily sacrifice saith Maister Iuell What is here falsified If it dyd cease the Priest ceased it For I trow the lay man might not say Masse if he would The other péece of Maister Hardings saying is this or else the memorie of our Lords death was often times celebrated of the priestes in the daily oblation without tarying for other to communicate with them These many words bicause oftedious writing Maister Iuell reporteth this or the priest receiued alone Now iudge of this place which Maister Harding saith is altogether falsified and praye that Maister Harding may once haue eies to sée The .200 vntruth Here Maister Harding noteth an vntruth in the margin that is not in the text When he telleth vs what it is we will better examine it The B. of Saris. The Masse that is so glorious can neither be founde in churches nor chappels Harding It is found both in churches and chappels Dering It is not yet found neither in church nor chappell within .600 yeares of Christ. The B. of Saris. Thus saith Chrysostome if thou stand by and not receiue thou art malapert thou art shamelesse thou art impudēt 2. thine eies be vnworthie the sight herof vnworthie be thine eares 3. O thou wilt say I am vnworthie to be partaker of the holie mysteries then art thou vnworthie to be partaker of the praiers 4. Thou maist no more stay here than an heathen that ueuer was christened Harding The .202 vntruthe Chysostome doeth not say these vvordes The .203 vntruthe Chrysostome saith not then an heathen vnchristened Dering Sure good Reader the numbring of these vntruthes is verie straunge here is one Chrysostome saith not these wordes an other he saith not then an heathen c. I would faine know here in the first vntruth what Maister Harding meaneth by these words If he meane the whole sentence why maketh he an other truth If he meane all the sentence going before this latter vntruth why doeth he not make of it thrée seuerall vntruthes For it is distinguished into thrée seuerall sentences or if he think but one of those sentences is false why doeth he not tell vs which it is Certaine it is Maister Harding did know that these former partes of this allegation were all true
is in vaine but that the oblation is in vaine making a great difference betwene his Masse and oblation But this matter doth not so well thriue as Maister Harding wéeneth his Masse and oblation must néedes be both one else how could his Masse be saide to be a sacrifice propitiatorie for quick and dead sith the sacrifice can onely be ment by the oblation But let vs take Maister Hardings words as they are The oblatioÌ„ saith he is in vaine to the people that will not come Here he speaketh not onely against his companions but against the Pope and against his Masse booke The decrée saith the oblation is good that is offred for Iudah and Ierusalem that is for them that coÌ„fesse the Lord. And the masse booke saith Hanc oblationem offerimus pro ecclesia tua sancta catholica We offer this oblation for the whole catholike church Yet saith Maister Harding this oblation is in vaine If he him selfe will thus speake against Pope and portus he may peraduenture crack his Masse ere he be ware But it is well We take that Maister Harding graunteth except the people receiue the celebration or sacrifice made by y e priest is in vaine so his priuate Masse is quitâ— condemned The B. of Saris. If Maister Harding will stand vnto the authoritie of Chrysostome let him not dissemble but speake plaine vnto the people as Chrysostom spake Let him say to theÌ„ that come to heare his masse if ye receiue not ye are shamelesse ye are impudent you are not worthie to be partakers of the common prayers Depart you from the Church ye haue no more place here than Turks and heathens your eyes be vnworthy to see these things vnworthy be your eares our Masses can not profite you they are not meritorious for you they please not God they prouoke his anger they are all in vaine This is Chrysostomes sense and plaine meaning Harding The .207 vntruthe These are not his words The .208 vntruthe Nor his meaning Dering Héere I must craue of the indifferent Reader to note this manner of quoting vntruthes Of these very words of Chrysostome before he made two vntruthes the .202 and .203 Here of them all he maketh but one Yet if there be but one nowe there was but one afore and so one vntruthe is made thrée Againe before he made no vntruth as touching the meaning now he maketh one Yet if there be one now there was one afore so of two vntruthes which is very vnlike he will nuÌ„ber but one againe in the .204 vntruthe he maketh but one vntruthe bothe of the words and meaning héere seuerally he maketh one of either this diuersitie of gathering must néedes shewe a matter of little waight Now as touching these two vntruthes and the wordes héere saide of maister Iuel he neither saith nor meaneth that they are al in Chrysostome But alleaging certaine as is shewed in the .202 vntruth he héere addeth more For example to shew the Massing priestes how they should speake vnto the people What troweth maister Harding to persuade the people that maister Iuel maketh Chrysostome to speake of their Masses Héere in these words the Masse is plainely named yet y e good father did neuer know what suche spirituall whoredomes did meane And yet héere M. Harding to cary away the readers vnderstanding in his railing spirite he speaketh great blasphemies against Gods electe and calleth him the forerunner of Antichrist whome God hath appointed one to be an ouer runner of the Romish Idolatries But God be praised in all his saints The B. of Saris. Now let vs examine this inuincible argument wherwith euery childe as Maister Harding saith is able to proue the priuate Masse Harding The .209 vntruthe I say not so let my booke be iudge Dering These are his woords of this most euident place of Chrysostome euery childe is able to make an inuincible argument against master Iuel for the priuate Masse these are his very wâ—ords I say as he saith let the booke be iudge and he that is found a lier let him haue the blame The B. of Saris. This is M. Hardings argument The sacrifice in Chrysostomes time was daily offred But many times none came to Communicate Ergo there was priuate Masse Heere the Maior is apparant false the Minor is proued at aduenture Harding The .210 vntruthe The Maior is true The .211 vntruthe The Minor is well proued Dering In the .133 vntruthe maister Iuel proued by S. Augustine â–ª that in some place the people receiued euery day there maister Harding dothe note that for vntrue héere maister Iuel proueth by S. Augustine that in some place they receiued not euerye day Hâ—ere likewise maister Harding noteth this for vntrue And yet howe can bothe these be vntrue More circumspect behauioure in so false dealing hadde bene necessary Now as touching bothe these sayings of maister Iuel that somewhere the people did receiue euery day somewhere only on certaine dayes let S. Augustines woordes be witnesses Thus he wryteth The Sacrament of the body of Christ is receiued somewhere euery day alicubi certis interâ—allis dierum somewhere on certaine dayes only As long as this aucthoritie may stande for good maister Iuels saying hath a good warrant And though it were not good yet maister Hardings two vntruthes must néedes one ouerthrow an other As touching this other vntruthe that none came to receiue with the priest sée whether it be proued at aduenture or no. Thus maister Harding saith if there were but fewe to Communicate in that great and famous Churche of Antioche what may be thought of a thousand lesser churches c. Nowe whether this proofe be at all aduentures and a bare gesse it is soone iudged Concerning Chrysostomes aucthority here read the Replie The B. of Saris. As for the Maior it is plaine by the .6 councell of Constantinople by S. Augustine vpon S. Iohn by S. Basil ad Caesariam patritiam by the Epistle of the councel of Alexandria in defence of Macarius and by the councell of Laodicea and by sundry other aucthorities to that purpose before alâ—eaged that the sacrifice was not daily offred Harding The .212 vntruthe S. Augustine hath the contrary Dering If S. August speake contraries he is sure the more to blame but who séeth not by S. Augustines plaine woordes in this former vntruthe alleaged that where he saith the sacrifice is daily offred it is to be ment of certaine places not of all This vntruthe is directly contrary to the 83.133.14-5.156 vntruthes But what skilleth that where M. Harding may be beleued Héere note that all these other aucthorities are coÌ„trolled and yet notwithstaÌ„ding M. Harding presumeth vpoÌ„ his vntruths Sure the number was appointed too large that coulde not be made vp without suche foule shifts The B. of Sarisb Maister Harding saw that this is but a slender proofe Chrysostome ministred euery day therfore he receiued alone Harding The .213 vntruth Maister Harding
in the congregation receiueth alone Theophylacte a later wryter vpon the same place saith Why should we pray our selues Quia haudquaquam meritò id mysterium sumunt multi bicause many do receiue that mysterie nothing worthely By all these Doctors this place is ment of the Communion S. Ambrose saith It any man be impacient domi terreno pane pascatur Let him eate earthly bread at home And againe we come to gether vt multorum oblatio simul celebretur that the Oblation of many might be made together But S. Ambrose calleth not prophane meats suche as their common feasts were either heauenly bread or our oblation S. Chrysostome saith qui hoc non faciunt indigne communicant they that tary not one for an other doe communicate vnworthily And héere againe we sée this Doctors minde of priuate Masse or as M. Harding wil haue it of the priestes sole receiuing Beda saith likewise alleaging S. Augustine Ad Ianuar. Epist. 1. that this which the Apostle writeth in this place is ment of the Communion S. Ierome also dothe so enterprete it Read all these vpon the xj chapter of the first Epistle to the Corinthians Of the same minde are also Augustine Basil Gregorius Romanus And if thou rest vpon the aucthoritie of men examine all the olde Doctors that haue written vpon the same place not them only but suche as are of yonger age as Thomas Scotus Lyra Hugo gloss ordinaria and suche other They all agrée this saying of S. Paule tary one for an other is ment of the Communion Dionysius Carthusianus on the same place speaketh very plaine when ye come together to eate saith S. Paule Panem coelestem saith Dionysius the heaueÌ„ly bread videlicet corpus Domini that is to say the body of the Lord. And Nicholas of Gorram vpon these woordes tary one for an other wryteth thus Docet modum in hora communionis ordinate accedendo he teacheth howe to come orderly in the time of Communion What plainer aucthoritie can there be than these Who séeth not that all antiquitie haue vnderstande S. Paules words of the Communion If thou search them thine eyes shall be thy witnesse Yet saithe maister Harding as he were priuiledged without blame or discredite to speake what he would that Martyr Caluine Cranmer and suche other haue deceiued maister Iuel but it is wonderfull to sée howe he speaketh against the truthe the Lord knoweth whether against his owne conscience Read the Replie Fol. 94. thou shalt further sée â–ª how in the Communion the people came togither But as touching this place bicause the spirite of God is not tied to any man or age we will leaue our witnesses and examine the place First S. Paule blameth them bicause they come togither not with profite but with hurt And then teaching how they ought to come togither and in what sorte to haue their méetings he teacheth them by the example of our sauior Christ and his doctrine saying â–ª that which I haue receiued of the Lord that I haue deliuered vnto you that Iesus Christ in y e same night y t he was betrayed tooke bread c. making a full description of the Lords supper whereunto be adioyneth for this cause many of you are weak c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For this cause which is the vnorderly receiuing the communion Yet saith M. Harding it is ment of their feastes After this it dothe folow in Paule Wherfore my brethren when you come togither to eate tary one for an other Now if this be not yet plaine inough that he meaneth of the Sacrament then looke what foloweth an vndoubted proofe of the whole matter Least saith S. Paule you come togither to your condemnation Is this at any time pronounced of any manner eating but of the vnworthy eating of that blessed sacrament Yet for the priuate Masse sake this plaine scripture must be denyed and impudently wrested into a straunge sense And marke héere how maister Harding would haue S. Paule reason the woordes before are plaine of the Lordes supper Of those words S. Paule concludeth wherefore my brethren c. Then by maister Hardings meaning S. Paule should reason thus A man must prepare him selfe to receiue the Communion Ergo they must tary one for an other at their common feastes such lose arguments the spirite of truth doth not vtter But suche is M. Hardings fashion he dothe not consider how he wresteth Gods scripture while he thus defendeth his vngodly Masse The B. of Saris. The like decrees are found vnder the names of Calixtus Anacletus Martinus Hyllarius and others by which it is certain that the whole church then receiued togither Harding The .221 vntruthe It is not certaine by those decrees Dering Sée the .151 vntruthe It is the same in effecte that this is But let vs sée héere also how truely M. Harding speaketh It doeth not appeare by these decrées saith he that all receiued togither this shall be best tried by the words of the Decrées Calixtus saith thus When consecration is done let all communicate which will not be excluded out of the Churche Anacletus hath the very selfe same woords but how it cometh to passe let the Decretal epistles sée that haue this agréement very often and yet it is very straunge that diuers menne should speake the same woordes Hylarius saythe if thy sinnes be not so great that thou must be excommunicate thou must not seperate thy selfe from the body and bloude of the Lorde Martinus sayth If any man heare the scriptures readen and of a superstitious minde doe thinke he should not Communicate sette him be excommunicate now iudge whether these decrées teach that the whole church should receiue together M. Harding can answere nothing but bringeth two distinctions one olde one which we had before in the .151 vntruthe an other he maketh more to answere Pope Hilarie and that is this where Hilarie saith If he be not excommunicate let him not abstaine from the sacrament We may abstaine saith M. Harding sacramentally though not spiritually If these distinctions may be alowed ther is no aucthoritie so good but let M. Harding slip and he wil answer it But S. Paule saith take héede y t no man spoile you through Philosophy and vaine deceit The B. of Sarisb Chrysostome saith we are all of one worthinesse to receiue the mysteries Harding The .222 vntruthe He saith not so Dering These are Chrysostomes words Est autem vbi nihil differt sacerdos a subdito vt quaÌ„do fruendum est horrendis mysterijs Similiter enim omnes vt illa percipiamê° digni habemur there is a time saith he when the priest dothe differ nothing from the lay man as when they must enioy the dreadful mysteries For we are al accompted of like worthinesse to receiue them And that we should not doubt of his meaning he maketh afterward along discourse to proue this same Yet saith master Harding it is false it is vntrue Chrysostome saith