go I think to no mortall man to be more strengthned The B. of Saris. It pleaseth M. Hard. to alledge the one end and conceale the other Harding The .76 vntruthe The .10 diuis I conceale not the other Dering If M. Harding doe alleage bothe these ends of the Sacraments that is To ioyne vs vnto God to ioyne vs one with an other then let this be vntrue if he do not then for my pore skil me thinketh he concealeth it The B. of Saris. M. Harding saith the Communion signifieth not the Communicating of many together Harding The .77 vntruthe I say not so Dering Héere M. Harding and M. Stapleton do agrée so iumpe in one vntruthe that it appeareth euidently their religion is either very vniforme or at least they haue bene both instructed in one schole Thus saith M. Harding The Cōmunion is not so called bicause many or as M. Iuel teacheth the whole congregatiō receiued together in one place These words M. Iuel reporteth thus He saith the Cōmunion is not so called of the Communicating of many together This is vntrue saith M. Har. I say not so this is vntruth saith M. Sta. he saith not so I require héere of thée good Christian Reader to viewe the woords well and finde out any fault if thou canst Surely I thinke thou canst finde none like as sure it is M. Iuel did thinke of none But these two pair of Egles eyes what haue they espied Forsothe wher M. Harding saith it is not called the Communion of Communicating togither in one place M. Iuel thus reporteth it it is not called the Communion of Communicating togither and leaueth quite out in one place which maketh all the matter this distinction of Communicating together and Communicating together in one place bicause it is somewhat straunge these men should haue done well to haue proued it by some Doctor Sure M. Harding if he may goe for a Doctor he teacheth vs plainely in an other place that to Communicate together is to Communicate in one place For thus he writeth but that they should Communicate together that is to say in one place that we deny By this Doctor it appeareth that together and in one place is all one and then this can be no vntruth The B. of Saris. How be it in plaine speche it is not the receiuing of the Sacrament that worketh our ioyning with God Harding The .78 vntruthe The worthy receiuing worketh this effect Dering Doth it so Are we not ioyned to God before we eate the Sacrament S. Paule saith Elegit nos in ipso He hath chosen vs in Christ before the foundations of the worlde were laid muche more are we his before we receiue the sacrament Concerning sacraments the same Apostle sayth of Abraham Signum accepit circumcisionis c. After he receiued the signe of Circumcision as the seale of the righteousnesse of y e faith which he had when he was vncircumcised And shall we be taught now that they be no more seales and witnesses but causes of our iustification God kéepe vs from suche spiders that gather poison of so swéete floures And that thou maist take the more héede of this mannes doctrine I must first tell thee that for proofe of it he bringeth not one worde of Scripture but pretendeth the aucthority of Chrysostome and Cyril I would answere the aucthoritie for suche Doctors saue that the labor were long and not necessary For I will declare out of the Scripture that the doctrine is hereticall and thereby thou shalt be satisfied and maist further imagine that these holy Fathers names are too muche abused In this vntruthe of M. Hardings he teacheth two points of Doctrine the one that by and thorow the worthy receiuing of the Sacrament we be ioyned vnto God the other that the Sacraments are not only seales and pledges but also they containe grace Now let vs sée how these two Articles agrée with the worde of God And first whither the receiuing of the Sacrament do ioyne vs vnto God and as M Harding saith putteth also into vs life immortall Our Sauior Christ in the Gospell after S. Iohn doth often tel his Disciples how they are made one with God yet in that holy Gospel as in all other scriptures there is not one worde that telleth vs we be made one with him by receiuing the Sacrament But contrarily by plaine words we be taught what vertue this Sacrament hath that it is onely a signe of that grace which we haue receiued as shall appeare héereafter In the sixthe chapter of Iohn where Christ reproueth the fleshly hearers of his worde and calleth them to a true beliefe in him the Iewes make this answere What signe shewest thou then that we may sée it Our Fathers did eat Manna c. Héere is first shewed what the Iewes thought of Manna not that by it they were ioyned to God or receiued grace but that it was a signe a token and a pledge of their frée election how they were a peculiar people vnto God This Manna being a figure of this Sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ now lest vnto the Churche Christ maketh this aunswere I am the bread of life he that commeth to me shall not hunger and he that beleueth in me shall not thirst for euer By this we learne that to beleue in Christ is to haue euerlasting life and as Manna was a signe to the Israelites so the Communion of the body and blood of Christ is a signe to vs that this promisse shall be made sure It is written in the Prophet and all thy children shall be taught of the Lord of this saying our sauior Christ teacheth vs how we be ioyned vnto him and sayth No man can come to me except the father which sent me draw him And to this ende it is written by the Prophet Ieremie After those dayes sayeth the Lord I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts and I will be their God and they shalbe my people Of this we learne that if we come vnto Christ the Father must draw vs if we be his people he must be our inward teacher if we be vnited vnto him he must first come and dwell in our hearts whereby it is plaine that we must be first engrafted in Christ before we can worthely receiue his holy Sacramentes Furthermore it foloweth in S. Iohn he that eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloud dwelleth in me and I in him Therefore we must dwell in him and he in vs or we can not eate his body and drink his bloud And the wicked which dwel not in him can not receiue him Again where our Sauior Christ doeth teache very largely how we be ioyned vnto him and become one with him euen as his Father and he is one he sheweth that this societie doeth come vpon vs of his Fathers frée mercy apprehended by Faithe of his woorde And for
God was offended with the same Harding The .119 vntruthe God was not offended with keping the sacrament but with the presumption of the woman which opened the cheast with vnworthy handes Dering M. Iuel sheweth out of Nicephorus that by like examples it may appeare God was offended with that reseruing of the Sacrament M. Harding without reason without aucthoritie without example of Gods word dothe boldely pronounce vpon Gods meaning and saith the example was shewed bicause she opened hir cheast with vnworthy hands Suche pronouncing of Gods doing should be grounded in Gods scriptures or else suche noting of vntruthes are rash and wicked I graunt it is in S. Cyprian cum manibus indignis tentasset aperire when she assayed to open it with vnworthy handes But whether for hir vnworthinesse God sheweth y e miracle that M. Harding addeth of his owne But what if Cyprian had said this we must not therfore haue beleued it He was a good member of the Churche of God but yet he was a man sometime deceiued He taught that Christ made satisfaction for original sinne only yet we know that was a wicked opinion He wryteth that it was in his time .6000 yeares sith the Deuill did assault man which is a grose error And in some places he thought not reuerently of the Maiestie of the holy Ghost God forbid we should yelde to any thing what so euer a good man doeth write But it is well in this place Cyprian saith no suche thing as M. Harding wold haue him and therfore his rashe vntruthe is not yet proued But to proue the contrary and that M. Iuel saith true we haue the aucthoritie of many Our sauior Christ bad doe that which he did in his remembraunce But he said vnto his disciples take and eate he said not lay vp in your chests And so Cyprian him selfe if it be Cyprian saith likewise recipitur non includitur the Sacrament is receiued it is not shut vp So likewise sayth Origen panis quem dominus dedit discipulis suis iussit accipi manducari non differri aut seruari in crastinum The bread which the Lord God gaue to his Disciples he bad them take it and eate it He bad them not defer it and kepe it till to morow Thus we sée M. Iuels saying may be sufficiently proued and maister Hardings bolde vntruthe is without any reason The B. of Sarisb The thing which our bodily mouthe receiueth is very breade Both the scriptures and also the olde Catholike fathers put it out of doubt Harding The .120 vntruthe It is the very body of Christ. The .121 vntruthe The holy fathers say not that the substāce of bread remaineth Dering This first vntruthe is all one with the .74 the .102 the 104. But suche must be had or how shal vntruthes rise Yet reason wold as I haue said that he shold proue his transubstanciation before he quote so fast these vntruthes Concerning this other vntruthe though it be one with this former and is now .v. times repeated that no wise man would thinke well of maister Hardings doing yet bicause he is so well pleased with it through his importunitie I must néedes say somewhat bothe for trial of his truthe and satisfying the christian reader First our sauiour Christ after consecration calleth it the fruit of the vine and a testament S. Paule v. times breade and the table of the Lord S. Luke calleth the whole Communion the breaking of bread Theodoretus an auncient father saithe Qui se ipsum appellauit vitem illa Symbola signa quae videntur appellatione corporis sanguinis honorauit naturam non mutans sed naturae adijcit gratiam He that called himselfe a vine did vouchsafe to honor those tokens and signes which are séene with the name of his owne body not chaunging their natures but ioyning grace vnto it And againe he saythe signa mystica post sanctificationem non recedunt a natura sua sed manent in priori substātia The mysticall signes after sanctification doe not goe from their owne nature but kepe the same substance that they had before that denyeth transubstantiation Gelasius saithe non desinit esse substantia vel natura panis vini the substaunce or nature of bread and wine ceaseth not Vigilius saithe of Christes humanitie quando in terra fuit non erat vtique in caelo nunc quia in caelo est non est vtique in terra when he was on earthe he was not in heauen now he is in heauen he is not therefore in earthe and in his first boke against Eutiches he likewise saith abstulit de hoc mundo naturam quam susceperat a nobis he hath taken from the worlde that nature which he receiued of vs. Chrysostome saithe natura panis in sacramento remanet The nature of breade abideth in the Sacrament Augustine saythe quod videtis panis est that which you sée is breade Origen saith Non materia panis sed super illum dictus sermo est qui prodest Not the matter of bread but the worde which is spoken ouer it dothe helpe Cyril sayth Christus credentibus discipulis fragmenta panis dedit Christ gaue vnto his beleuing disciples the breakings of bread Irenaeus saith Eucharistia ex duabus naturis constat terrena caelesti the Eucharist consisteth of two natures the one earthly which is breade the other heauenly which is by faith the féeding of our soules with the body of Christ. Reade maister Iuels bookes thou shalt sée suche other aucthorities in great number Thus thou séest Christian reader that the Doctors beare witnesse there is the nature of bread in the sacrament when M. Harding is able to answer these or bring any for himself then let the vntruthe stand The B. of Saris. The .18 Diuision This sole receiuing was an abuse and therfore abolished Harding The .122 vntruthe Sole receiuing in the time of persecution was no abuse Dering Héere M. Harding doeth fréely graunt that sole receiuing is an abuse whē the people may freely resort vnto the church Where is then the priuate Masse of our time This vntruth though it be worthe no answere yet for want of better it was once noted afore The B. of Saris. In M. Hardings Masse the whole people eateth by the mouthe of the priest Harding The .123 vntruthe They eate not by the mouthe of the priest as M. Iuel meaneth Dering M. Harding is driuen to narowe straightes that maketh suche raw vntruths with so many vnripe distinctions In the former vntruthe he putteth in in the time of persecution In this vntruthe as M. Iuel meaneth His helping hande must come to or there is no vntruth to be found This is M. Hard. plaine doctrine the people doe receiue by the mouthe of the priest If he can make two senses of these words his doubtful speaking is full of deceitfull meaning But this is too shamelesse wrangling No man in the world
doth not direct your goyngs and therefore you make suche often reaches at hatred What preiudice should Maister Iuell bring vnto your cause which of it selfe is weake and of all Godly men forsaken What harme vnto your person whose returne should be his exceding ioye and whose obstinacy is the encrease of his commendations Bicause say you in the person of an other he putteth you in remembrance from whence you be fallen Why M. Harding are you offended to heare of your euyll doyng Uerilye the wise man sayth He that refuseth instruction despyseth his own soule But what speaketh this person whom you meane vnto M. Harding not long since c. O custome of euill speaking what a pleasure doost thou bring vnto the euill disposed person We haue hearde often of Maister Iuells raiâ—inges and scoffings euery leafe of his vncourteous dealing a long common place of his bitter kinde of writing After so much a doo seing there will be required some proofe he séeketh busylye and when he can finde none he maketh the greatest leape though there be many very wyde that is in the reioinder euen out of this preface quite ouer the Replie in to the conclusion and there he hath found a poore man which asketh a question which hath set him in these fiery passions what is there in such manner dealing but either singular impudeÌ„ce or extreme foly Beare yet with him good Reader Barre him of these leapings and all his pastime is done But let vs heare what Maister Harding can aunswere to this poore man Thus Maister Iuell maketh him speake vnto Maister Harding Not long since you taught them of our side the Gospell euen in like sorte and fourme as it is tought now Here Maister Harding bicause he can make no good aunswere thinketh it not amisse to stop this pore mans mouth with a litle sophestrie You taught vs sayth this poore man the Gospell By this saith Maister Harding you doo vs to wéete what your gospell is and wherin it consisteth Blame not this poore man though he can say no more I haue béen a scholar almost this twentye yeares and yet I can not sée what this aunswere meaneth They must be Lâ—nces eyes and such as can looke through milstones that can sée this conclusion very déepe cogitations must go so far into sentences and a man had néede of a warme nightcap that should folow them But seyng we can get no better aunswer the poore mans saying shall stande still for true and Maister Hardings obscure gatherings shall verifie the coÌ„mon saying that it is better to saye nothing then to holde ones peace In the ende Maister Harding denieth that he euer spake these woordes wherby he doth empayre his credit in all other matters Let the Christian reader for his contentation when time and occasion may serue enquire of any that then liued in Oxâ—orde This simple way may not countervaile so many witnesses Hardyng ¶ To answere to the matter simply and truly as before God I will not here for my better excuse accuse the will of the Prince in whose dayes I was brought vp in learning the ernest endeuour of the Gouernours then being to satisfie his desires the crueltye of the lawes the yeelding of all in generall except a very fewe the great silence of preachers that then durst not teach necessaries the common ignorance of men Omittingâ— all these which I might bring for some part of excuse I am content for truthes sake freely to accuse my selfe In certaine points I was deceiued I confesse by Caluin Melancthon and a few others as you by them and sundrye others are nowe deceiued in many Dering Now he commeth to the simple and true aunswere for hys turning but he turneth so many members in one sentence that he turneth all sense quite out of the periode Perhappes he thinketh he speakes to the poore man againe therefore he speaketh in riddles Or if it bee not so the truth I trowe breaketh out And againe he accuseth the iniquitie of those dayes but his darke hart cannot abide the light straight he starteth backe againe and is content to take the fault vnto him selfe bicause all other excuses are vayne and vngodlye And as well as he can in so great a storme he runneth vnder the couering of S. Augustines auctoritie but it may not helpe him sithe their turnings are not like Saint Augustine turned from traditions vnto scripture but he turneth from the scripture vnto traditions Againe S. Augustine turned from the vayne trust that he had in man vnto the sure confidence that is fixed in Christ. But he is slidden away euen from Christ to sée how farre men haue established hys aucthoritie This is true as his own conscience doth iudge and hys writings doe testifie when vnder the name of the Churche he gâ—eth from the woord of God Therefore is his turning neyther modestie nor repentance but a shamelesse falling away and an obstinate forsaking of God God giue him grace herein to iudge him selfe that in the day of wrath he be not iudged of the Lord. Harding ¶ Now as to confesse this much truth requireth so to acknowledge your false reportes wisdome forbiddeth Them would I haue also not let to coÌ„fesse if I wist God were delited with our lies Wher then you say I taught your Gospell euen in like sorte and forme in al respects as it is taught now that I deny vtterly In dede I hobde and roued sometimes but your pricks I euer tooke to be to farre for me to shoote at Neither trulye coulde I see the marke that you M. Iuell and suche as you are shot at it was so farre of and therefore I stoode out and shot smaller game Dering Now after this confession made you go as you say from the truth to your wisdome and tel vs in what sorte you preached the Gospell You say you hobde and roued but you neuer shot at any certaine marke Why were you one of Baals prophets that haulted on both sides that woulde serue both God and Mammon too That eate meate with the Gentiles and yet dissemble it before the Iewes The waueryng is vnconstant in all his wayes and bicause thou art neyther hoate nor colde I will spue thée out of my mouth sayth the Lord This hobbing was the cause that you fell agayne to your vomit And this rouing euer since made your shooting vncertaine You could not sée the marke that M. Iuell shootes at the vale of colde deuotion was before your eyes You looked euen now like an Eagle in the poore mans question But nowe you haue oyled your blere eyes that you can not sée Christ. God lighten your eyes that you sléepe not styll in death You stoode without you say and shot smaller game in déede you shot such game as was not worth your labour At the imaginations of mans brayne you roued so muche vncertainly that you shoote yet now beating the ayre Therfore haue you eyes and sée not c. There be
place whereunto you direct vs hath no such saying Thus it hath In my iudgement this woord Eucharistia in this place of Irenaeus signifieth not the sacrament alreadye consecrate but rather other common breade After this he alledgeth thrée sundrie aucthorities that it maye be so taken and in fine hée sayth how be it herein I will not striue Other wordes then these Maister Iuell hath none and is this to say Eucharistia is not the sacrament Hath he any such absolute saying Or doth he affirme any whit at all O that the Replie had bene of M. Hardings penning he would then sure haue good matter against it Now it is the bishops own doing he can say little and not corrupt his woordes But marke Christian Reader in this shooting what ill fauoured feathers he hath vpon hys arrowes The vpmost is corruption of M. Iuels woordes the 2. that lye vpon the bow the one is deceite the other ignorāce The corruption is already manifest the deceite is where he would haue thée to thinke that Eucharistia might not signifie bread but where euer it were found it shoulde make for hys transubstantiation The ignorance is in that he maketh it so straunge a thing that Eucharistia might signifie breade not yet consecrate When in his popish Masse before consecration the bread and wyne are called sancta illibata sacrificia holye and immaculate sacrifices Concerning the word Eucharistia it is found in the new testament often times yet alway signifying either open thanks giuing or else thankfulnes of the minde so in that the sacrament is called Eucharistia it is a good argument against transubstanciation An other marke that Maister Harding could not shoote at is concerning the prophesie of Malachie that it shoulde signifie the sacrifice of our Cōmunion Of this mark reade the vntruth An other make is this that in the sacramēt of the aultare ther is no vertue but when it is vsed This marke saith he was out of my reach But if he say true he is then but a bragger eyther he hath not read so much as he pretendeth or else he is a loytering truant 〈◊〉 that hath forgot so good a lesson In this one thing he offendeth both waies the godly in that he wil not shoote at that marke which the holy Ghost hath set vp the vngodly and men of his owne deuotion in that he denyeth any vertue to be in the water of baptisme but when one is christined For if it be so why sing they ouer that water where none is christined sis fons viuus aqua regenerans vnda purificans c. be thou a liuing spring a water of new birth a water that doth purifie c. Maister Harding cannot deny how merily this hath bene song in Colledges yet none haue bene christined I trow among them And a Doctor of their own side saith si Asinus bibit aquam illam bibit sacramentum if an Asse drinke that water hee drinketh the sacrament Whereby it appeareth they repose vertue in the water though none be baptised Yet in this opinion they agrée not Scotus sayth it is Asinina quaestio a question méete for an Asse But of the water he sayth it is cold running cleare necessarie and common cold to represse concupiscence running to turne the course of our disobedience cleare to lighten our fayth necessarye to bring vs into the way of health common to all men And in commendation of this iudgement it is written in the margine doctrina singularissima a most singular doctrine fit lattin for suche a purpose to attribute such vertue to the water But M. Harding will say these vertues are in the water as Scotus speaketh in ipso fieri but euen while the childe is a baptising And of that opinion Thomas Aquinas séemeth to be wher he saith such prayers as are sayde ouer the water are not necessarye but onely for the solemnitie But here we may ill beleue eyther Thomas or Scotus for Pope Celestine saith otherwise Siue paruuli siue iuuenes whether they be Infants or whether they be yong men let them not come to the sacrament of regeneration which is the wel of life before the vncleane spirite be driuen away exorcismis exsufflationibus Clericorum wyth the cuniurings and the blowings of the Priests And of this opinion is the Maister of the Sentences Whereby it appeareth howe little Maister Hardinges Doctours are manye tymes beholding to hym that will so flatlye denye their opinions For if these thinges be necessary before the christeninge then hath the water vertue in it selfe at other times then the very tyme of christening But thus muche he said rather against his Doctours then against him self for his wordes seme in this place to confesse a truth There is no manner vertue in the water but onely in the vse of it But where he saith it is not so in the sacrament of the aultare but that there is vertue in it though it be not receiued that offendeth the godly and varieth quite from the worde of God and robbeth vs of our great comfort that we haue in Gods mysteries For S. Paul saith Panis quem frangimus the bread which we breake is it not the communion of Christes body For we being many are one bread and one body bicause we be pertakers of one bread By this opiniō we might be thus perswaded if vertue be in the sacramēt when it is not receiued then we may be incorporate into Christes body though we receiue it not contrary to S. Paules doctrine that saith to be of this vnity we must be pertakers of one bread And here I woulde faine aske Maister Hardyng this question if by these wordes hoc est corpus meum the breade is become no breade and a newe grace is put into it whether it be receiued or no I demaunde what if the bread be kept till it be consumed concerning the flesh He aunswereth the Lorde departeth againe when he is prophaned or when he is denyed What then is done with the grace Doth it likewise returne How is it then true that the prophet wryteth verbum meum non reuertetur ad me vacuum my word shal not return vnto me in vaine But how doth it not return in vain when being imploied vpō a dead creature It returneth vnto him again w tout farther quickning his liuely image which is mā or hardening the hart y t is already obdurate to Gods further glory Againe be it thus that a lofe once consecrated be set before a stranger who feedeth on it as vpon common breade if ther be vertue in it he discerneth not the Lords body so shoulde he receiue his own damnation How could it be then true that our sauiour saith that which goeth into the mouth defileth not the man or that which S. Paule saith al things are cleane to them that are clean nothing is to be refused that is receiued with thanks giuing And in an
it is doubtlesse an abhominable lie foreged out of secrecy bicause it should not be coÌ„uinced by witnesse But it shal not be a misse bicause this thing coÌ„meth to question to note what M. Iuell might saye and what the Prince must doe It is not vnknowen what authoritie hath bene giuen vnto the Pope that he hath rule both of heauen and earth and he that taketh one iote of this authoritie from that church is an hereticke And that he may not be iudged as Pope Boniface hath decreed though he drawe innumerable soules headlong into hell and that he hath all knowledge in the closet of his brest that he can dispence against the Apostles and against the old testament and that we must abide the yoke that the Pope layeth vpon vs though it be intollerable and that seate is apostolica sublimitas euen as high as the Apostles and that quicquid statuit quicquid ordinat what soeuer the Pope appointeth what soeuer he ordeineth perpetuo irrefragabiliter obseruandum est it must be obserued for euer without any contradiction Suche blasphemous authority giuen vnto the Pope made that in the time of restoring the Gospell euen good men attributed more vnto the Prince then was conuenient and flatterers more then was to be borne with all as in the time of the sixe articles Bishop Gardiner and his felowes did vnto King Henry the eight when they gaue him authority in the church of God to institute or disanull Lawes as it lyked him best to forbid the mariage of ministers to deny the people the cup in the Lords supper The graunting of such authority is flattery in the subiect the receiuing it presumption in the Prince The church is y e spouse of Christ purchased with his precious bloud and ioyned vnto him euen as a woman vnto hir husbande The Prince is héere a subiect and may set the church no Lawes but as hir heade appointed Christ doth sanctifye his church with the washing of water through the worde that is with baptisme and the preaching out our iustification in his frée mercy if the Prince say it shall be sanctified with crossing and créeping with diredges and Trentalls with holy Breade and holy Water with Pilgrimage and Bonfiers the Prince is rebellious and the Subiect must yéelde his lyfe Then for a briefe conclusion if the Prince wil make any new holynes or forbid the minister to preach y e word that is written or if he will say we shall Prophecie no more at Bethel bicause it is the Kings chapple and bicause it is the kings Courte it lyeth not in his authority Wo be vnto the Prince that shall be so led with errour But if the Princes will doe nothing but she will aske councell at the mouth of God if she will humble hir selfe vnder him as low as the poorest creature in the world if she will set out his glory and â—â—presse the wicked blasphemyes of the honorable if Christ crucified for hir sinnes be alwayes pictured before the eyes of hir soule then shall she runne a happy course and in the end haue a happier garlande If she shoulde héere of enimies hir owne conscience shoulde make hir without feare if all iniquitie should stirre vs to rebellion she should sit vnmoueable The Lord hath placed hir and who is he shall put hir downe She is a good nourse of Christes misticall body and no authority is alone hereof yet in all this supremacy we tye hir vnto the worde of God and as she hath regard vnto hir owne soule in the name of hir God we charge hir not to go beyonde it In this is hir prerogatiue that she can inforce other to this obedience and no man can enforce hir This supremacye Maister Iuell did neuer deny the popish supremacy no good man will grauÌ„t Let it then be contemned wherwith Maister Harding maketh vp this tragedy that we teach one thing at home an other thing abroade After this vsuall inuention he frameth a little Philosophy of his owne and then furthereth it on Epicure wherwith he faineth his comparison Now let the indifferent reader iudge which of these is the wauering man Maister Iuell that in his life hath gone not one hower backe or Maister Harding that many yeares hath preached contrary doctrine Doutlesse had he liued in Seuerus time notwithstanding this long apology his armour shoulde haue ben pulled off and he left naked in token of an apostata and his aduersary commended that in all his lyfe hath ben founde so constant Hardyng ¶ What fault so euer you finde with my chauÌ„ge certaine it is al chaungs be not reproueable He chauÌ„geth wel that chaungeth from euil to good It is a happy chaunge that is made from errour to truth from schisme to vnitie from heresie to right faith from contempt of Religion to the loue of Religion from darkenesse to light from pride to humilitie from pleasing men to study how to please God Who so euer maketh this chaunge he is not to be accompted mutable nor inconstant Dering Hitherto Maister Harding can not deny his turning now least it should preiudice his estimation he thinketh good to commend it true it is he turneth well that turneth for the best it is better to returne then to run alwayes euill but whether you haue made this turne or no it must be tryed not by your worde but by the truth of God The Prophet Dauid doeth aske the question how one shoulde turne aright and doth aunswere him selfe by taking héede vnto Gods worde Now I appeale to Maister Hardings conscience what part the worde of God did worke in his turning he maketh continuall crying out of the church the church but very déepe silence of the worde of God Yet Christ saith heauen and earth shal passe before his word do passe S. Paule saith We may not beleue an Angell that preacheth any other doctrine S. Iames saith It is the word that can saue our soules S. Peter saith It is as sure as the voice of God him selfe that was herd from heauen and what meane these men vnder a vaine title of the church so to neglect it Christ promised to be with his church vntill the latter end of the world but his word is his presence not mans inuentions his Euangelies are our learning not supersticious ceremonies The dayes are now come that we shall say no more the arke of the couenaunt of the Lord but by Christ alone we must make our prayers and by him alone offer vp the sacrifice of praise vnto God that is the fruit of our lippes which confesse his name Therfore if you will make a good turne you must turne to that church which turneth only vnto him and to the simplicity of his Gospell But you haue put on the adulterous attire of straunge intercession and clothed hir selfe with altares and altare clothes with Copes vestimentes Awbes Tunicles Curtaines Sensors Candlestickes Crosses and such other You are
vnto you they be catholike in doctrine as whome therefore you account for Papistes Yet who euer alleaged them so thicke as you haue done though to no purpose in your Replie It seemeth you were desirous to shew all your wares at one market Vse their testimonies and beleue them If you beleue them not what meane you to vse them Dering Now Maister Hard. hath gone well forward in vntruthes as the violence of his nature draweth him he falleth into a paradoxe If you vse a mans authoritie sayth he it is reason you subscribe vnto his religion What reason is there in these words or who would speake thus that knew what to speake well Doth not Mayster Harding meane to blind the eyes of the simple when he will aduenture to speake such monsters or hath he not little to say where he taketh hold of this Christ vsed the testimonie of the Scribes and Phariseis of Pindarus an Ethnike Poet. S. Paule of Epimenides Yet it is no reason Christ should subscribe to y e Iewish religion Paule should become an Ethnike I néede not make this long by examples they are in maner infinite euery where to be founde But bicause Mayster Harding maketh this so straunge I must put him in mind of a saying that Tullie vseth against Verres Tuum testimonium quod in aliena releue esset id in tua quoniam contra te est grauissimuÌ„ debet esse The witnesse which in an other mans matter were little worth yet in thine own bicause it is agaynst thy selfe it must be of great authoritie Now surely this saying of Mayster Harding is verye grosse But yet ludus iocus prae vt huius rabies quae dabit It is nothing if you compare it with that which followeth He biddeth Mayster Iewell leaue off to fill his readers eares with vaine false fables Now Lucullus may haue leaue to speake like Cato Antonie to accuse Tullie for placing shakebucklers in the Capitoll Gracchus may speake of sedicion and Verres may reproue men of theft Maister Harding doth find fault with fables I must aunswere as Tullie doth O miseruÌ„ siue haec tibi nota non sunt sine sunt qui apud tales viros tam impudenter loquare O wretched man whither he know it or know it not that speaketh so shamelesly vnto his readers Mayster Iuell hath not one tale to proue any article Maister Harding and his companions haue aboue one hundred thousand to proue their religion and howe could it be otherwise when the Legend it selfe whence they fet their diuinity is nothing but lyes After this bicause Mayster Harding can espy neuer a fable auouched by Mayster Iuell he thinketh good to charge him with that he sayth not wherby such as will beleue him on his word may think at the least he hath brought somwhat for himselfe and vpon some such consideration this he telleth foorth his tale Hardyng ¶ Where as you make so much adoe with me for one vision of S. Basile which neuerthelesse is reported by men of good credite remember your owne selfe are not able so well to iustifie youre owne fables which you tell at the beginning as that Pope Gregorie whom you had rather call Hildebrand was a Necromancer and a Sorcerer that Emperor Henry was poysoned in the Communion bread that Pope Victor was poysoned in the Chalice Dering Here Christian reader thou hast foure lyes in foure lines First sayth he Mayster Iuell findeth much fault with me for one fable that is one lye for Mayster Harding hath manye fables one out of Abdias diuis 5. an other oute of Leontius diuis 32. the thirde out of Amphilochius diui 33. beside all the allegations out of other petie Doctours This is then one vntruth forasmuch as M. Hardings words seme to acknowledge but one fable The second lye is that it is reported by men of good créedite and that is not so Vincentius and Antonius are of little better credite in their histories then Arthur of little Brittaine I haue not numbred their lyes but sure it is neyther of them haue so fewe as a thousande For triall read the bookes and if thou go ten lines without a lye in Antonius thou must light vpon the couer and in Vincentius thou shalt not séeke much further These Authors then are not of good credit The thirde lie is that maister Iuell is not so well able to iustifie the histories of Victor Henrie and Hildibrand For he can hardly alleage any of lesse credite then Vencentius Antonius But let the defence of the Apologie be a triall of this matter The fourth lie is that these fables are Mayster Iuels owne For he doth not so much as once say they be true but onely writeth that this it is reported and he alleageth Hermannus contractus neyther in that place doth Mayster Iuell care whether they be true or no. But Mayster Hardings tale of Amphilochus is soothly auouched set out with many circumstances and made a solemne proufe of his priuate Masse Yet I haue heard many better tales tolde by olde women of Robin goodfellow Then the warest councell that I can giue him is if he will further his Masse let him speake no more of fables The residue of this Epistle which is very little is concerning certaine vntruthes which are aunswered in theyr places the maner and forme of wryting is still like it selfe full of vncomely wordes against the Replie At the last he concludeth thus Harding ¶ If men be not vtterlye blinde and as I may say so bewitched with the spirit of errour and lying as to beleue what soeuer you say be it true be it false I doubt not but after they shal haue read my Reioynder and what is written by others here of late in their iudgement your Replie shall finde small credite Nowe to ende If you feare not God to whome of so many vntruthes you shall giue account yet reuerence man of whose wordly estimation you depende For my parte I shall pray that eyther God moue your hart to repent and amend or that he giue the people grace not to beleue you Dering It is true which our Sauiour Christ hath sayde the tyme should come when if it were possible the very elect should bée deceyued For who can sée these bolde asseuerations which M. Harding vseth and the great assuraunce he pretendeth for his Religion and would not thinke that the worde of God were his warrant But be not deceyued Such confidence is not straunge neyther toward God nor man Cossutian in no wise would feare Caesar. And Rabsaketh the Capitaine of proude Senacharib sayd the Lord â—ad him come to destroy Ierusalem the Grecians haue a prouerbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 some mannes mynde maye as hardlye bée pearced as Aâ—ax Buckler and the Scribes said we know that God spake with Moises but this man we know not what he is But Theogâ—â—s sayth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by foolysh perswasion I am vndone
victorie Such Hercules buskins he can applie to little leggs and make so great vaunts where himselfe is furthest deceyued The B. of Saris. The name of Masse is seldome or neuer found among the Catholyke fathers Hardyng The .17 vntruth It is often found among the olde writers Dering Note good Reader how this man feareth not to note vntruthes so his number may grow This word is seldom found â—aith Maister Iuell in the catholike fathers it is found often sayth he in olde writers as though who soeuer were auncient he were straite way Catholyke Himselfe hath remoued in the 21. vntruth certaine commentaries of Ierom. And I must certifie thée there be other which notwithstanding their age yet haue no more authoritie than olde Aesopes fables Then notwithstanding Maister Hardings note of olde wryters yet M. Iuels saying of the catholike fathers may be true But I will not vrge Maister Hardings wordes admit he ment no guile in the naming of olde wryters How proueth he this vntruth He bringeth in .ix. fathers and counsels in which this worde Masse is found he sayth he could bring thrée mo that is .xii. in all The olde bookes which are written are almost infinite so in .12000 bookes he can finde that he seeketh for but .12 times yet sayth he it is found often Maister Iuell graunteth it is found somtimes Such vntruthes wil soone shame the controller Now this worde Masse or Missa least it shoulde beguile thée for that it is sometime in catholike fathers I will brieflye declare vnto thée what it is and in what sence it is found That which maister Harding calleth so ofte the Masse as Basils Masse Chrisostomes Masse and Iames his Masse in Gréeke it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth an open or common function and this signification it hath as well in prophane writers as in the scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sayth Aristotle he is occupied in the administration of the commoÌ„ wealth and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to execute common offices So 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the open worshippinges and seruice of their Gods In like sort it is vsed in the scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as they were openlye preaching and Saint Paule sayth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that I might be an open minister among the Gentiles and this is proued by the Etimologie or true explication of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quasi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he that hath common businesse in hande Hereby it appeareth that eyther M. Hardings Masse is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and so neyther Chrisostome nor Iames nor Basil nor the other Gréeke authors euer sayde or named Masse or if they did the verye worde doth quite ouerthrow the priuate Masse As touching the Latine worde Missa we haue to learne it as the fathers sayde remissa for remissio so also they sayd missa for missio that is a sending away when in the primatiue Church such as were Nouices in christian fayth were sent away from the true beleuers which was before the communion And this appeareth by Saint Augustine where he sayth Ecce post sermonem fit missa cathecumenis manebunt fideles venietur ad locum orationis Beholde after the sermon the Nouices are dimissed the faythfull shall abyde and shall go vnto the communion For so maister Harding doth witnesse that orationis in Saint Augustine doth signifie and in déede in this place it is true Here haue we thrée especiall things to note the craft and subtilitie of Maister Harding and his friend Stapleton who both as it may be well thought vpon conference haue aledged the same places oute of doctors and councels where this worde Misâ—a is found and yet neyther haue mencioned this place of Augustine If they knewe it not they are not of that reading they pretend if they knew it it is to maliciously concealed Secondarily there abode no more in the Church but such as were communicants So this late gazing at a popish Masse was not then in vse Thirdly they did all communicate and then where was priuate Masse So this gorgious shewe to bleare the simple peoples eyes with the antiquitie of this worde Masse is an inuincible argument whereby pryuate Masse doth fall Examine the places that they themselues bring thou canst not wreast any likelihoode of priuate Masse out of them Yet this is moreouer to be noted that within .380 yeares after Christ the worde was neuer named in any probable author whereby it sufficiently appeareth that it was neuer knowne in Christes time nor in his Apostles after him And thus much of this worde Masse The B. of Saris. Clement was very lately found in the yle of Candie by one Carolus Capellius a Venetian written in Greeke and in these Countreis neuer heard of nor seene before Harding The .19 vntruth It hath beene seene before Dering Here Maister Harding committeth thrée great faults the one to charge maister Iuel with an vntruth when he alleageth Peter Crabs authority an other for misconstruing those wordes which are plaine and common the thirde for clipping of Maister Iuels wordes For where he wryteth it was neuer séene in these couÌ„treis Maister Harding quoteth his vntruth it hath beene séene But considering these poore shiftes wherevnto maister Harding is driuen I will graunt these wordes to be maister Iuels that it was neuer séene Who knoweth not that neuer here signifieth of long time or seldom if it had béene neuer séene howe could it haue bene written These grosse gatherings in so fine a wit néedes must sauour of malice It is the phrase of al laÌ„guages 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Saith Achilles they did neuer wast my fertile fieldes in Pthia yet not many yeres before were great iniuries done by the Troians eueÌ„ in Achilles countrey So Agamemnon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 O prophet of harmes thou neuer yet toldest me pleasant things Yet it were much for M. Harding to say Calchas pleased not Agamemnon when he foretolde what tyme Troie should be destroyed In lyke maner sayth Euripides 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 There was neuer good son of an euill father yet was Ezechias good of wicked Ahaz So in the common prouerbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more auncient than the worlde we meane great continuance We say the same in Latine NunquaÌ„ tam palestricus praetor There was neuer such a wrastling chiefe Iustice meaning very seldome And in our english I neuer sawe such an other But what we meane by it that in déede was neuer doubted of neyther is Maister Harding so simple that he knoweth it not but he had rather speake against his owne knowledge then say nothing against Maister Iuell This is ynough to any indifferent reader to shewe that these vntruthes are but wranglings But read the replie and thou must néedes confesse it were thou neuer so parciall For Maister Iuell himselfe alleageth Leo Gelasius Bessarion which disalow this booke and how could that be if
it had neuer bene séene These hastie vntruthes haue yet little spéedy successe Let vs se the residue The. B. of Saris. That they were written in Greeke and not in Latine that they could be layde vp in secrecie for the space of a thousande fiue hundred yeare and more and no man misse them Harding The .20 vntruth They were knowne to the fathers Dering It was very wrangling to begin that vntruth which common sense doth teach vs had no falshoode in it to persue it that is great ouersight but to make two of it that is extréeme follie They were kept in secrecie sayth Maister Iuell these 1500 yeares and this is true they were not openly knowne as Maister Harding himselfe doth confesse therefore they were secrete and how could they haue béene secrete except some had hid them but why doth he not tell Maister Iuels tale hole They were not knowne saith he in these countries Maister Iuell himselfe as is aforesaide doth alleage Leo and Gelasius both Bishops of Rome and Bessarion a cardinall who all condemne the booke Reade the Replie good reader and thou shalt find it true and how could they haue done it if they had neuer séene the booke This wrangling this lying thys wicked Reioinder were it not that some ignorant man might beleue it it should not haue one worde aunswered But God deliuer vs from such contagious poison The B. of Saris. Saint Ierom by the report of Eusebius sayth certaine other bookes are abroade in the name of Clement as the disputation of Peter and Appion which bookes were neuer in vse among the fathers neyther containe they pure and apostolicall doctrine Harding The .21 vntruth Saint Ierom is falsified Dering It is reported of Brutus that he was woont to say he had spent his time euill that coulde denie nothing M Harding perhaps to eschew this blame hath prepared himself when it pleaseth him to denie any thing The fault that Maister Iuell here findeth with Clement is that by the testimonie of Saint Ierom his bookes are not pure and apostolicall It is neuer a worde so saith Maister Harding Saint Ierom is falsified If Brutus were now aliue peraduenture M. Harding might be commended But bicause Saint Iohn hath bid vs not to beléeue euery spirite euery bold asseueration must not stand for true Let vs sée what Ierom himself sayth and we shall iudge the better whether Maister Iuels report be true or no. Thus he writeth The olde writers haue quite reiected these other bookes ascribed to Clement And Eusebius in his third booke of the ecclesiasticall historie doth reproue them Now except Maister Harding will say that the Apostles writing is condemned of these olde writers and catholike fathers or that Eusebius that good bishop of Caesarea reproueth their doctrine Why will he not haue his Clement to be accounted not apostolicall whom the old fathers reiect and Eusebius reproueth The substaunce of such vntruthes doe make the gatherer appeare either ignorant or euill disposed Harding The .22 vntruth Dering Here Maister Harding maketh one vntruth ioyntly out of Saint Ierom and Eusebius where Maister Iuel saith Saint Ierom by the report of Eusebius saith thus c. M. Harding for the better multiplying of vntruthes saith first Saint Ierom sayth it not next Eusebius sayth it not thirdly they say it not Had he dwelt among the Lacedemonians for this great talke of vntruthes little reason in shewing them he should surely haue bene accounted for a babler If we graunt that his sayings are true yet are these thre but one vntruth and that not made by M. Iuell but by S. Ierom. Thus we sée when it pleaseth him he will not vnderstand neither the common phrase of speaking nor what is ment by plaine sayings Again when it pleaseth him he will vse more Logicke then either is true or honest Such a Proteus he is in his owne vnderstanding The. B. of Saris. Clement is condemned by Gelasius Harding The .23 vntruth It is not condemned by him Dering Nowe Maister Harding is come to his olde compasse He denieth he careth not what Nothing shall want a bold asseueration if his simple authoritie may proue any vntruth but let vs not trust him before we trie him so we shall knowe the better what Gelasius sayth His wordes are thus reported by Gracian We haue thought good to note certain bookes which are come to knowledge and ought to be auoyded of catholike people First the councell holden at Ariminum gathered by Constantine the Emperour the sonne of Constantinus by meane of Taurus lieutenant from thenceforth and for euer we iudge worthy to be condemned Likewyse the Iournall of Peter the Apostle bearing y e name of Clement Eight bookes are secrete vnlawfull writings Nowe consider with these wordes of Gelasius this booke which for his Masse sake M. Harding doth so much defende It goeth vnder the name of Clement so doth that which Gelasius condemneth It contayneth .viii. bookes and so doth that They are accoūted Apocrypha secret writings and so are the other Beside this Gelasius condemneth a booke called the Iournall of Peter and this Clement himselfe sayth that S Peter willed him to write that booke but yet vnder this title that it should be called the Iournall of Clement And to conclude those bookes condemned by Gelasius teach euill doctrine and so doth this Clement And shall Maister Hardings plaine wordes counteruaile so much likelihoode Well may those erre that néedes will be deceyued But among the louers of truth such vntruthes will be very odious The B. of Saris. Abdias was conuersant with Christ. Harding The .24 vntruth I say not he was conuersant with Christ. Dering Maister Harding may score vp his vntruthes after what sorte it pleaseth him but any indifferent man must needes thinke that Maister Iuell doth not falsifie his wordes when he layth them altogither euen as they are written If in repetition of any part of them he doe mistake the meaning such error deserueth verye little blame But bicause M. Harding is so farre driuen that if he should let slip euen the least aduauntage he shoulde sustaine great losse of his whole cause let vs examine all that is reproued and yéelde vnto the vtmost that may appéere faultie I say not saith he that Abdias was conuersant with Christ. But he sayth he saw Christ in the flesh and wrote diuers histories of the Apostles doings at which he himselfe was present of this to say he was conuersant with Christ is scarce worth the fault finding Yet maister Harding sayth stifly he onely sawe Christ in the flesh he was not conuersaunt with him By like he looked through the creuice with Eubulus when Christ helped Saint Basil to Masse and by that meanes Abdias could but sée him The B. of Saris. Lazius sayth that Saint Luke borrowed whole histories worde for worde out of Abdias Harding The .25 vntruth Lazius sayth not so Dering Here is first a very graue note in a weighty
not so Dering This is a proper vntruth Now by lyke Mayster Harding is non plus The B. of Saris. Thou seest Christian reader what doctours here be brought as maister Harding sayth to ground thy fayth and saluation vpon Harding The .42 vntruth I say not so Dering If Maister Iuell shoulde so misreport maister Hardings saying as he himselfe for his vntruthes sake doth commonly vse then had he good cause to crie out both of misconstruing and corruptions for he will say and vnsay and all with one breath for to séeke aduauntage Thus he sayth expressely he hath brought these authorities for y e confirmation of thy fayth And againe he hath brought these authorities for the stay of all christian mens beléefe Sée his booke thou shalt sée the words Thē why saith he not y t he bringeth these authorities to groūd thy saluation on or how could he without blushing note this vntruth There is no other difference in the sayings saue where Maister Iuell reporteth it to ground thy faith Maister Harding hath to stay and confirme thy fayth If here be any difference alway wrangling excepted let this be an vntruth And yet were there any Maister Harding speaketh plaine ynough in the confutation of the Apologie Thus he saith there Are not these trustie men to whome you maye commit the charge of your soules for your fayth and saluation These wordes I trow are plaine ynough to proue this no vntruth The. B. of Saris. It is the very expresse order of the Communion Harding The .43 vntruth It is not so Dering This vntruth maister Harding hath not in the text but hath wrested it out of the margine and bicause he thinketh that for the base matter it would be little regarded to make vs the more attentiue he beginneth with this admiration But what meaneth Maister Iuell c. But to quite Maister Hardings wonder I aske of him againe what meaneth he thus abruptly to rush into maister Stapletons possessions He hath taken vpon him to returne those vntruthes and whye doth maister Harding meddle where he hath no thank There be already a great many past which he hath not touched and why doth he out of season thus meddle with this If he thinke maister Stapleton hath returned it nothing cunningly I doe easily graunt that he is in déede a naughtie workeman if he thinke by his labour it shall appeare more beautifull I must néedes graunt his turning is much better but yet the matter it selfe is neuer a whit the truer And for as much as the thing must trie it selfe let vs somewhat better examine it Maister Harding sayth in the .5 diuision of his first booke that Ciril hath expounded the Masse vsed in Ierusalem Maister Iuell noteth this for the .12 vntruth saying that Ciril expounded the communion and not the Masse Maister Harding returneth this vntruth againe saying it was the Masse and not the Communion I might with as great facility denie this again and say it were the Communion and not the Masse But bycause my testimonie were in this not of weight I am content to be furthered with the witnesse of maister Stapleton Hée sayth plainely that maister Harding brought not this for proufe of the question and that it maketh nothing for priuate Masse But here Maister Harding saith that it was a Masse Therefore this vntruth gathered by maister Harding is answered thus by maister Stapleton that it is not so and tyll they agrée better a longer discourse of that place of Ciril is neyther profitable nor necessarie The B. of Saris. What if all these doctors testifie against maister Hardings Masse Harding The .44 vntruth They testifie not one vvorde against it Dering Maister Iuell alleageth Iames his Liturgie Abdias Iustinus Dionysius Basil Chrysostome and Ignatius reade the Replie fol. ii of all these saith maister Harding they be M. Iuels buts and therefore he will skip them ouer and not answere a worde neither rime nor reason What shamelesse demeanor is this in men that professe to séeke the truth if wée would doe the like howe soone woulde this Reioinder be aunswered It is an easie matter if this be ynough M. Harding must séeke better stuffe this will not serue Although in déede it be true that this Reioinder is all false and vngodly stuffe yet séeing christian people are so euill disposed the falsehoode of this stuffing must be in some part disclosed Howe much then should this discredit maister Hardings religion against so expresse authoritie to make so slender aunswere The B. of Saris. Hippolytus was lately set abroade in print about seuen yeares past before neuer acquainted in the worlde Harding The .45 vntruth He was well knowne before Dering That man is well knowen of whom most men haue heard or with whome many be acquainted Now howe proueth M. Harding this Hippolytus is well knowne Saint Ierom saith he named him Surely this is a very small acquaintaunce to be named but of one man in all the worlde Yet not thys bastard Hippolytus but that other bishop and martyr is named of Saint Ierom. Such vntruthes haue great sauor of enuie or of folly or of both Sith maister Iuell sayth that Hippolytus was neuer acquainted in the worlde and Maister Harding doth shew but only that Saint Ierom did name him This vntruth if truth were wel regarded should surely haue bene spared Howe be it I graunt not onely Ierom named Hippolitus but other many Eusebius speaketh of him so doth Theodoretus and alleageth diuers sayings out of hys bookes Gelasius Epiphanius and Niciphorus also haue named him and yet all these had but small acquaintance with him Eusebius and Ierom and Theodorete knewe not where he was bishop Gelasius sayth he was a bishop in Arabia Nicephorus saith he was bishop of Ostia a hauen towne in Italy Ierom sayth Origene was stirred vp by emulation of Hippolitus yet it appeareth by sundrie recordes that Origene was made bishop of Alexandria .x. yeares before Hippolytus did write By this it appeareth that y e true Hippolytus was not long since well knowne in the world so that were this booke good yet maister Iuell sayd true But how good it is and how vnworthy the name of Hippolytus read the Replie and thou shalt well perceyue Beside this the booke by M. Harding alleged entituled de cōsummatione mundi is not once mencioned neither by Ierome nor Eusebius nor Theodorete where they make especial menciō of Hippolytus bookes then I trow we may say truely this is no vntruth The B. of Saris. He beginneth the first sentence of his booke with enim Harding The .46 vntruth He beginneth otherwise Dering Here Maister Harding maketh himselfe merie with wondring at Gréeke readers and scholemaisters musing howe they could haue béene so ignorant But may it please maister Albutius that so faine would be a Grecian to remember the Gréeke saying 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to laugh out of season is a great miserie Had this defence
them againe some drop should go downe his throte and so he should breake his fast But I will let passe these high points disputed in their Canon law and greatest doctors and of this that is sayd I desire the christian reader to iudge whether these wordes are vntrue that a priest may saye two or thrée Masses in one day The. B. of Saris. Concerning consecration he doth great wrong to charge vs with the breach of it before hee him selfe and other of his side are better resolued wherein consecration standeth For Scotus and Innocentius the .3 say that this word benedixit worketh consecration Harding The .56 vntruth VVe are resolued herein The .57 vntruth Scotus and Innocentius say it not Dering Maister Harding to make his vntruthes very common vseth such Logick as is very rare Where the antecedent argument do hang togither he maketh them both vntrue Wel may this doing haue credite among the simple but when the learned doe sée it they do easily say that these vntruthes haue more consideration of number than regarde of good matter and substance But let vs take them as they be the folly of the vntruthmaker shall the more appeare We are sayth maister Harding fully resolued herein that is wherein consecration standeth It is pitie that his worde hath not the Popes priuiledge that it might not erre He neuer wanteth audacitie to denie at aduentures whatsoeuer mislyketh him He sayth in consecration we are all agréed but Marcilius one of his owne doctors saith it is not so Whether of these say true it shal appeare hereafter We agrée sayth maister Harding that consecration of the bread and wine is wrought by these wordes hoc est corpus meuÌ„ this is my body and hic est sanguis meus this is my bloud And of this iudgement is their Pope holye patriarche Saint Peter Lumbarde yet the whole counsell of of Florence say consecration is wrought with all the wordes togither as they lye The chapter of Coleine say these words are not sufficient without the Canon of the Masse Saint Augustine sayth it is wrought with the word of fayth which we preach Saint Ambrose saith these wordes accipite comedite take and eate are part of consecration So haue these men the councell of Florence the chapter of Coleine Saint Augustine and Saint Ambrose against them Now let vs sée how they agrée among themselues Scotus sayth in finall resolution Dico breuiter ê™ non est nobis traditum certitudinaliter an ad formam coÌ„secraâ—ionis sanguinis partineant aliqua verba post illud sanguis meus vel an aliquot illoruÌ„ sequentiuÌ„ vlque illuc hoc facite â–ª c. Ideo periculosum est hoc asserere de quo sufficiens authoritas non habetur I say briefly that we haue no assurance at all whether any other wordes appertaine vnto consecration of the bloud after this is once said this is the cup of my bodie or whether the residue wordes following be part of consecration or no vntill it is sayd take and drinke c. Therefore it is daungerous 〈◊〉 affirme anye thing where you haue no sufficient authoritie And it followeth in Scotus and by this it is manifest they speake vndoscretly which say it is necessary to know in euery sacrament what are the precise and very words of consecration He saith further Let no man say I will vse these precise wordes simplicitie is much surer And vpon this he remoueth a doubt that if the priest should say this is my body and say nothing of that which gooth before we ought not to worship it but on this condicion if it be consecrate And these are Scotus verye wordes iudge now whether he agrée with Peter Lumbarde or whether he be resolued what to say or whether Maister Harding be not past shame that so boldely writeth of all the men that euer wrote maister Iuel might worst haue alleaged Scotus And that all Catholike be fully resolued in this For a larger proufe let vs yet examine it a little further Gabriel Biel expounding the Canon of the Masse ouer these wordes benedixit fregit he writeth ouer benedixit consecrando ouer fregit non panem sed panis speciem so by Biels opinion Christ did consecrate with benedixit he blessed Ludulp de Saxonia and Ihnocentius 3. agréeth with Gabriel Biel. Thomas and Bonauentura say that Christ spake these words twise hoc est corpus meum and so consecrated by them when he pronounced them first secretly Then thus farre M. Hardings doctors doe not well agrée Alexander de ales knoweth not well what to say he sayth in one place Christus dixit bis Christ spake the wordes of consecration twise Afterward he sayth consecrauit nos quo modo nescimus he did consecrate we know not howe Lastly he sayth virtus erat in manibus there was a secrete power in his handes This Doctor is much like Scotus he knoweth not what to say Marciliê° saith how Christ did coÌ„secrate doctores diuersimode dicunt doctors are of diuers minds Some sayd he consecrated without pronouncing any wordes Thus euery man speaking his fansie not guided by the worde of God they walke in darknesse and can not tell whither they go But Maister Harding will say though they can not agrée how Christ did consecrate yet they are fully agréed how themselues doe consecrate This as is before aleaged out of Scotus is not true But before I shew their diners opinions I would demaund of some of maister Hardings friendes howe a good conscience may be satisfied concerning this matter How Christ did consecrate as appeareth they do not agrée and so much maister Harding graunteth and vpon this Scotus sayth Intendebant narrare rem gestam non tradere formam consecrationis The Euangelists intended to set forth the storie not to leaue vnto vs any forme of consecration And Marcilius sayth nullus Euangelistarum nèc etià m Apostolus videtur hanc formam vidisse None of the Euangelists neyther yet the Apostles séeme to haue gyuen our forme of consecration Here I make this reason The Scriptures beare witnesse of Christ and how his body was made but the scriptures beare no witnesse of consecration therefore by their consecration his body is not made Againe consecration being of such force that they themselues confesse their host should no time be worshipped but with condicion if it be wel consecrate and yet this consecration is not taught vs by the scriptures howe is the saying of our sauiour Christ true that the holy ghost should teach vs all truth or how hath Saint Luke fulfilled his promise that sayd he would write of all things euen from poynt to poynt Againe where maister Harding sayth and commonly his other doctors holde that Christ did consecrate by these wordes this is my body if they wil stand to that for ought y t I sée they ouerthrow their owne Masse Christ did breake y e breade
otherwise than the Euangelists reporte his words or else they could not agrée with their Masse this is a sufficient discharge of this vntruthe A good Christian before he sée better aucthoritie will beleue as the Gospell teacheth that we must first take it and eate it before it be Christes body so shall he sone sée the Idolatrie of a Popishe Masse The B. of Saris. If Christe instituted the Sacrament to the intent it should be first consecrate and then receiued of a companie c. Harding The .72 vntruthe This is a very grosse falsifying of my words Dering These are M. Hardings owne wordes in this Diuision Christ ordained y e Sacrament after Consecration done to be receiued eaten Of these words saith M. Iuel as is before alleaged if Christ. c. if I should héere aske of the indifferent Reader wherin is this grosse falsifying sure he could easily espie it But somewhat to helpe the Readers vnderstanding this it is where M. Harding hath to be receiued and eaten M. Iuell saith to be receiued of a companie if this be as it is in déede no fault whereto is this vnseasonable crying out of falsifying But if it shall séeme to be a fault then know that where M. Iuel alleageth M. Hardings owne wordes he printeth them in a distinct letter but this saying which so grieueth M. Harding is in the common letter of M. Iuels words wherby master Harding might haue wel vnderstand had he not bene disposed to wrangle that master Iuel alleaged them not as his expresse words but rather sheweth how he should haue made his saying plaine and this he proueth by authoritie of Bessarion and Gabriel Biel that after Consecration the sacrament be not receiued onely as maister Harding sayth but receiued of a company which word as it must so being expressely written master Harding did directly reason against himselfe The B. of Sarisb The .9 diuision Here vnawares he seemed to confesse that his Masse whatsoeuer substance it bear it is void both of good order and also of congruence Harding The .73 vntruth I confesse no such thing Dering You séeme to confesse it â–ª sayth M. Iuel Whether you doe or no let your words witnesse You say you are not bound to folow Christes example in order and congruence Nowe we may infer Christes order is only good therefore you folow no good order or congruence This is but a single vntruth The B. of Saris. The matter being so weightie and not yet throughly beleued c. Harding The .74 vntruth It hath bene beleued Dering When you proue this sure M. Iuel will subscribe you may make euery word in his booke as vntrue as this For he hath not one worde that soundeth towarde your religion if this may be noted for vntrue to say your Massing worshippings haue neuer bene throughly beleued you may note many moe vntruthes in this Replie For there is not one line that alloweth the Masse Read the next vntruthe The B. of Sarish The olde fathers call that the daily Sacrifice that Christ made once for all vpon the Crosse. Harding The .75 vntruthe The olde fathers call not the Sacrifice of the Crosse the daily Sacrifice Dering M. Iuel doth alleage Aug. secund Luc. serm 28. Ierom. in 1. Co. ca. 5. Germanus in Eccle. rerum theoria Irenae lib. 4. cap. 34. Tertul. aduer Iudaeos Amb. in 1. ad Tim. cap. 2. Examine the aucthorities and sée M. Hardings answere so thou shalt best iudge If I should enter into it it would require a long aunswere and nothing necessary What the Doctors wryte M. Iuel is thought to know as wel as M. Harding First reade and then iudge This is againe the .132 vntruthe And bicause we are againe fallen into mention of this Sacrifice which M. Harding said euen now hath bene throughly beleued let vs examine that vntruthe and trie if M. Harding be found true in his workmanship It hath bene throughly beleued saith he that the Priest doth offer vp to God the body and bloud of Christ vnbloudely in the remembraunce of that one bloudy Sacrifice of Christ. Reade of this in the Epistle the .31 leafe thou shalt haue it fully discussed only in this vntruth bicause the question lieth rather whether it hath bene beleued than whether the saying be true let vs a little consider of Christ him selfe his Apostles whether they haue beleued it First Christ in no one worde did giue vnto his Churche any commission of suche maner sacrifycing Christ saith often I giue vp my soule I Saâ—rifice my selfe no man doth it but I but vnto his Disciples he saith quo ego vado vos non potestis venire Whither I goe ye can not come By which wordes he taketh from them all power to Sacrifice him euen as it was afore tolde by Daniel that after Christ was once offred the Sacrifice and the Oblation should cease Not a word written wherby it may be gathered that we may offer vp Christ. And doth M. Harding thinke that in so weightie a matter as the remission of our sinnes that any thing is required of vs which is not commaunded vs It appeareth then in the time of Christ this was not beleued Did the Apostles beleue it after Christ S. Paule saith in that he died vnto sinne he died but once againe by one Oblation he made his perfite for euer and againe wher is remission of sinne there is no more sacrifice for sinne Then by S. Paule there is nowe no daily sacrifice for sinne except by Christes deathe we will that our sinnes be not forgiuen Againe S. Paule will haue vs folowe Christes example in the administration of Christes supper who teacheth vs of no Oblation for quicke and dead Againe the sacrifice cannot be made without a speciall priesthode but the Apostles doe teache vs that all suche Priesthode is abrogate If at any time the name of Oblation be mentioned in this age it is euer meant spiritually As is plaine Ro. 12. .16 Phil. 2. 1. Peter .2 for the real Sacrifice S. Peter is plain Christ hath caried our sinnes in his body vpon the woode and by his stripes we be healed and the effects of that one Sacrifice once made are purging of the sinnes of the whole world 1. Pe. 2. .3 1. Ioh. 2. 3. Ro. 4. Ephe. 1. eternall redemption Gal. 2. Ephe. 1. Rightuousnesse Ro. 3.4.8 2. Cor. 5. SaÌ„ctificatioÌ„ Eb. 10. Peace Ro. 5. Ioy of the spirite Ro. 4. Gal. 5. Newnesse of life Rom. 6. 1. Co 5. Loue of our neighboure 1. Ioh. 3. Eternall life 1. Ioh. 5. Ro. 6. then neither Christ nor his Apostles euer beleued it for the estate of the primatiue Churche how it beleued M. Harding hath nothing to say but referreth vs to the .xvij. Article of his former booke héere good Reader my labor is wel eased for séeing my Lord of Sarisburie hath answered al that matter who so wil be confirmed in that truthe he can
the scripture that on a day when the Disciples came together to break bread Paule disputed among them and prolonged his talke vntil midnight Of this if I shold conclude that they came in the after none M. Harding perhaps would say it were but a gesse therefore I leaue it S. Paule writeth to the Corinthians if any man be hungry let him eat at home Therfore it foloweth necessarily that they may receiue after other meate and if it be so M. Harding him selfe will graunt they might receiue at night vnlesse as he doth in the .8 diuisiō so here he will deny that this place is meant of the Communion and if he doe the Doctors are then against him S. Augustine shall stand in stead of many who saith plainly de hoc ipso sacramento loquitur He speaketh of this very sacrament Now this being lawfull to be done and the Churche of God being so oppressed could not méete when they wold no doubt sometime they met at night And further that this may be no bare gesse that some receiued at night It appeareth by S. Luke where he writeth that they did continue in the Doctrine of the Apostles and in breaking bread and that continuaunce in the same Chapter he mentioneth againe by these wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which words signify a continuāce from morning till night and by this aboue all coniecture it is manifest they receiued sometimes at night Then except M. Harding wil vse héere his former distinction of the Thursday before Easter and say that quotidie is euery Maundie thursday it is true that M. Iuel saithe that sometime they receiued at night Now that some parte of the vse of the primatiue church may appeare to agrée with this doing of the Apostles we will a little examine their doings S. Basil writeth that they were accustomed at the dedication of Temples to méete at midnight but at the same assemblies they may well séeme to haue ministred the Communion and therfore at after supper We reade the same of Athanasius that he did vsually gather together the Christian congregation at Alexandria in the night time And of this night méeting in all the congregations that were in Europe Lactantius maketh expresse mention Ierom maketh mention of the same in his Epistle to Sabinjanus and against Vigilantius And that these meetings were in the foreparte of the night it may appeare for that they had commonly other méetings in the morning which they called Antelucanos coetus the morning assemblies And yet if M. Harding wold sticke in it I may refuse all these and many suche aucthorities And for the iustifying of these vntruthes stand to the plaine wordes of Sozomene who writeth that in many Cities and Townes among the Egiptians they had their méetings on Saterday at night and in like plaine woords Primasius saith that in certaine places of Syria and Egipt men came together on Saterday night and that after Now I trust though the Thursday before Easter with maister Harding be no time yet all these saterdayes ioyned with it I trust do make sometimes Here is nothing can be replied but if M. Harding wil say that in suche méetings they did not minister the sacrament And if he wil say so may it please him then to héere what Eusebius saith that in suche méetings they had Orationes Psalmodiam participationem de mysterijs c. They had prayers singing psalmes the Communion c. And S. Augustine saith they did celebrate Dominicam coenam the Lords supper but except M. Harding haue some distinction in store which yet now he hath not told vs of we shall not néede greatly to proue this matter in the .182 vntruthe where M. Iuel alleageth the coūcel of Cabilon to proue that Masse doth sometime signifie common prayer bicause there it is recorded that they had Masse at euening circa noctis initium about the beginning of night there M. Harding maketh this answere why sir thinke you that Missa is taken for any kinde of prayer bicause in that place it is required to be done in y e euening As though the Masse might not at any time be celebrate but only before noone if you so thinke you are deceiued c. and there fully he concludeth that sometime it was said at night naming both maundy thursday and other times also Then I trust this vntruth is iustified expresly by sundry other aucthorities and probably by M. Hardings owne He telleth vs in déede that though it were at night yet it was not after supper nor yet dinner but that saying resteth vpon M. Hardings credit which to proue an vntruthe wayeth ouer light The B. of Saris. In the primatiue Church this order was thought expedient not for the sicke for they in their health receiued daily Harding The .82 vntruthe It was for the sicke The .83 vntruthe They receiued not daily Dering If I went about to aunswere M. Hardings Reioinder in this one Paragraph through lying and fonde speaking he hath ministred sufficient matter to fill many leaues But I leaue that to the godly Reader to consider For this present purpose thus saith master Iuel the receit of the Cōmunion when men lay on their death bed was instituted in the primatiue Churche especially not for the sicke but for them that were excommunicate This saying M. Harding dothe turne as if M. Iuel said that it was not expedient for the sick to receiue and so maketh that vntrue which in déede is vntrue and neuer spoken by M. Iuel But without such shifts master Hardings number of vntruthes could not grow For maister Iuels saying that this receiuing was especially for the excommunicate it may be sufficiently proued And M. Harding in his Reioinder saith nothing to the contrary for this vntruthe bicause M. Iuel saith no such thing Let it stande as a slaunder not worthy aunswere An other vntruthe héere is brought that the people receiued not daily and M. Harding hath such a confidence in this vntruthe that he is not contented with once noting it but as his manner is in many other vntruthes when his number commeth slowly forward he reconeth up one .4 or .5 times so he vseth this and maketh it the 83.133.145.156.213 vntruthe Now bicause it is so often reckened by like it standeth vpon some good ground Reade the .133 vntruthe and thou séest what it is The B. of Saris. At last it grew to suche superstition that it was thruste into mennes mouthes after they were deade as we may see by the councell of Carthage forbidding the same Harding The .84 vntruthe It was not thrust in their mouthes The .85 vntruthe It is not to be seene Dering What meaneth M. Harding would he haue children witnesses of his foly The wordes of the Councel are these Item placuit vt mortuis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 non detur It hath likewise pleased vs that the Sacrament be not giuen vnto deade
men héereby saith he it appeareth it was giuen to deade men not that it was thrust in their mouthes But I pray M. Harding can a thing be giuen to a dead man to eate and not thrust into his mouthe This vaine contention about words proueth M. Harding to be a very wrangler This appeareth to be true by the Canon M. Iuel recites and further we reade that it was commaunded if the persone were dying infundatur ori eius Eucharistia that the Sacrament should be poured into his mouthe Héere by the way note that in that time the people receiued the cuppe As touching the .85 vntruth M. Hardings Reioinder doth confute it selfe in the next vntruthe before he said the Councel did forbid it now he sayth it did not so whether it did or no M. Harding hath made a lie and except the distruction of thrusting it in their mouthes and putting it in there is no coloure to shadow the lie The B. of Saris. The members of these argumentes hang together like a sicke mannes dreame Harding The .86 vntruthe I make no arguments in this place Dering No good arguments in déede I graunt but yet suche as they are you encombre vs with them The B. of Sarisb Heere would M. Harding faine finde a Masse c. Harding The .87 vntruthe Heere I seke not for the Masse Dering But to séeke after your Masse is your only purpose Therfore here you speake nothing to the purpose and consequently as it was said afore your writings hang together like a sicke mannes dreame The B. of Saris. Here these words euery other christian man or woman that he hath in by the way are an ouerplus and quite from the purpose Harding The .88 vntruthe The .12 Diuision These vvordes are quite from the purpose Dering The question is whether there were priuate Masse within .600 yeare after Christ that is whether the Priests receiued alone in the congregation Maister Harding answereth sicke men and women receiued at home The controuersie lieth whether this be from the purpose The B. of Saris. For the question is moued not of any other man or woman but of the Masse and only of the Priest that saith the Masse Dering The .89 vntruthe Before there was an vntruth quoted not numbred here is one numbred and not quoted When M. Harding telleth what this vntruthe is we will answere it in the meane season we may marke the value of these vntruthes Some not worth numbring some not worthe naming but all is good inough for this Reioinder The B. of Saris. S. Ierome in his exposition is as homely calling it vilem intelligentiam traditionum Harding The .90 vntruth S. Ierome calleth not Moses lavv so Dering Héere M. Harding maketh two gesses One at S. Ieroms meaning an other at maister Iuels if either faile this vntruthe that is risen by chaunce must sal of necessitie But M. Harding héere as his whole religion is maketh very muche of outwarde shewes For except a little carnal pleasure of the outward sense there is nothing in their sinagogue but mourning and lamentation of the spirit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in no wise he will haue beggerly Ceremonies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saithe he is poore or nedy not beggerly What great ignorance in singular impudencie This exacte defining of Gréeke words may bréede some where some opinion of learning But alas héere is nothing but in déede 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 beggerly wrangling without other learning or good religion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith maister Harding is not beggerly but poore Yet Aristophanes saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not pore but beggerly Nowe whether were better Grecian master Harding or Aristophanes I thinke it may be sone iudged Aristophanes wordes are these 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is a begger and hath nothing he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that liues by his labor Thē by this it séemeth that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is beggerly And Maister Harding that sacred interpretation that trident couent doth so muche enforce doeth it not call them egena elementa And I pray you M. Harding whether is egena poore or beggerly Surely Ouid saith de rem amor lib. 2. of Hecate and Irus why they are not beloued Nempe quod alter egēs altera pauper erat bicause Hecate was but poore Irus was a very begger but thus it is Maister Harding careth neither for Aristophanes nor yet for Ouid neither yet for Gréeke nor yet for Latine He is so ielous ouer his vntruthes that some time he speaketh he knoweth not what Againe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saithe maister Harding is rather Elements than Ceremonies In déede I graunt the word signifieth the foure elements but I trow he wil not haue S. Paule speake thus now you know God why turne you againe to the fire aire water and earth that were a beggerly sense made of the holy Ghosts wordes Then why doeth he not confesse that S. Paule meaneth the Ceremonies of the law and thus much as concerning master Hardings Gréeke As touching his religion it is very choler if in respect of Christ he may not suffer the ceremonies of the law to be called beggerly But it is no maruell though this interpretation offend them for what is it that Paule calleth beggerly Ceremonies It foloweth You obserue dayes and monthes times and yeares Hinc illae lachrimae for this cause M. Harding is so much offended such obseruations are great principles in Papistrie and to call them beggerly is to make all that Religion nothing worthe But we sée suche a one is Paule he was chosen to preache among the gentiles and God haue the glory he hath conuerted vs from al popish Idolatry For this aucthoritie of Ierom which M. Harding blameth in which he séeketh for his vntruthe read the place thou shalt finde the words or else let this be vntrue The B. of Saris. Of mingling water with wine superstition only except no man maketh any great accompt Harding The .91 vntruth The old fathers make great accompt of it Dering If M. Harding will presse vpon these wordes no man maketh any great accompt then he might haue said I and my felowes make great accompt of it therfore some body dothe it and by this meanes he might haue had many witnesses of his saying and so his vntruthe had bene the surer If he will not so force the words why doth he apply them vnto the olde fathers By this it appeareth he writeth not alwayes with the best aduisement But now he doth M. Iuel great wrong and racketh his words to that he neuer ment He speaketh of him self and other that at this day professe Gods religion saith that were it not for feare of superstition we would not greatly stick to mingle water with the wine and for proofe that M. Iuel ment thus let his boke be iudge He alleageth Cyprian and Iustine and farther saith that
patched togither the Apologie For the printed sermon it is well confirmed by the Replie and the Replie is not yet found blameable notwithstanding this Reioinder the Apologie that he liketh to terme patched now after the time that God had apointed it doeth not want my defence the booke is pretious and is defended by suche a Iuell that all the treasuries in the world God make him thankful wil not buy his gifts therfore M. Hardings words cā not hurt him The B. of Sarisb Christ is set forth not to be receiued with the mouth for that as Cyrill saith were a grosse imagination Harding The .104 vntruthe Christ must be receiued with the mouth The .105 vntruthe Cyrill saith not so Dering This is one with the .102 vntruthe Master Hardings transubstantiation standeth him in very good stead to multiply his vntruthes And yet if he had well considered it it had not bene worth his doubling I haue spoken somewhat héereof in the Epistle Concerning this other vntruth M. Harding saith he knoweth not what he graunteth These are Cyrillus wordes but he gesseth at an other sense and vpon that surmise quoteth a new vntruthe Dothe he claime so muche to his owne vnderstanding that if he say it it must be so though y e words be contrary Before we build of his saying it shalbe néedeful for him to win some better credite Sée the place thou wilt beare witnesse that it is truely alleaged The B. of Saris. The .14 Diuision For the partie excommunicate being a priest might say he wold say Masse and so receiue the Communion euen with the bishop of whome he were excommunicate Harding The .106 vntruthe The Priest excommunicate might not say Masse lawfully Dering No sure whether he were excommunicate or no he might not say it lawfully neither by Gods law nor his holy Euangelies when M. Iuel saith this I will subscribe The B. of Sarisb Now if M. Hardings principle stand for good that the priest saying his priuate Masse may receiue the Communion with all others in other places c. Harding The .107 vntruthe I say not he may receiue with others Dering M. Harding is past shame wold God as I haue said often he were not past grace if these be not his words Therefore that one may Communicate with an other though they be not togither in one place it may be proued by good authoritie then will I subscribe if they be his words then iudge thou of his doing The B. of Saris. Heere marke good Christian reader then they Communicated saith Irenaeus when they met in the Church Harding The .108 vntruthe Irenaeus saith not so reade it againe and marke it better Dering These are Irenaeus words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 These words if as M. Harding requesteth we reade them againe and marke them better then no doubt they are thus in English These things being thus they Communicated together and in the Churche Anicetus gaue to Polycarpus the Eucharist Héere saith M. Iuel by this it appeareth they communicated when they met in y e church That is not so saithe M. Hard. Read it once again marke it better If often reading and better marking may serue the turne then gentle reader I craue also thy labour read it yet once againe and marke it better Yea read it while thou wilt and marke it how thou canst if this fansie of M. Hardings do but once come in thy minde I may boldely make thée this large offer let these all be vntruthes His fansie is so full of foly his imagination so vaine his interpretation so childish that if thou of thy self cāst finde it out I say as I said before let all these vntruthes stande Reade it I beséeche thée once againe and marke it better Is not this a straunge vntruthe that no mā can espie it but M. Harding But sith it is so that héere can be no vntruthe without M. Hardings good instruction let vs aske of him how it may be falsified He telleth vs of two faults the first in the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they communicated the seconde in Englishing Eucharistia the sacrament Mary saith he yet I will define nothing that is I will stande to neither of them Is not this a straunge dealing that he wil first finde fault then will not bide by it and yet notwithstanding wil score vp his vntruthe If this vntruthe be vntruthe why will he not abide by it Or if he will not abide by it why doth he say it is vntrue must his priuate Masse his halfe communion his outlandishe prayers his Popes supremacie yea his vntruthes and all be proued by paraduenture But let it be so what is it at the last that héere may chance be false this it is in the first fault about communion peraduenture forsoth they communicated before they met This blinde peraduenture wer it in Cambridge or Oxford no doubt it wold be hissed out of the scholes The second fault found in translating Eucharistia y e sacrament is this peraduenture Eucharistia here doth signifie sacerdotale mynisterium the priestly office Now sure good reader this is a straunge aduenture Eucharistia the priests office Fie on such a chance except a man had a priuiledge to make words sound what him listed No mā I trow wold haue made this aduenture But héere I must desire the reader to loke a little back to take the better view of M. Hardings dealing in the Epistle where M. Harding sporteth him self with his good artillerie he saith he could neuer shote at this mark that Eucharistia might be taken not for the Sacrament but for cōmon bread Now either by meanes of lighter arowes or a better loose he shootes a great way beyōd it saith with a good countenance y ◠Eucharistia is no bread at al but y e priests office Sure this is very vncertain shooting and can neuer stand with a good archer A man may shoote long at the Etymologie of y e word ere he bring it to this significatiō Though he haue determined to say little truely yet he shold haue taken héede how he had spoken so vnwisely That other tragicall exclamation that Eucharistia must be taken simply for bread consecrate bewrayeth this close dealing that it may be taken for the Priestes office And héere againe for a good note of M. Hardings fals dealing we haue to mark that in this place where M. Iuell sayth Eucharistia may be taken for common bread but yet apointed for the Communion M. Harding doeth not quote it for an vntruthe yet in the Epistle he noted it for a great heresie And why doeth he thus As it may be thought bicause he foresawe that to deny the Eucharist at any time to note bread not yet consecrate were a great preiudice to his grosse distinction that it might signifie the Priests office and therefore for the better conueyaunce of this absurditie he wold not quote that an vntruth which he had so greatly impugned before
134. vntruth master Harding saide this is all to gether falsified in this he saith it is fowly corrupt But y e falshod of that hath appeared to be so little that this false reporte of corruption can haue no great credit and no dout this vntruth vppon sufficient triall shall apeare a verie wrangling Chrisostomes own words are these hoc autem sacrificium examplar est illius Reade the place These wordes as I think are thus muche in Englishe But this sacrifice is an example of that Not so saith master Harding this place is fouly corrupt Peraduenture héere is some verbe put acquisitiuely as in the .134 vntruthe If it be so héere may be straunge Latine but whether there be or no gessing is not necessary where there may be had other good proofe Let vs heare why this place is corrupt What saith M. Harding Thus he saith It is exemplar a samplar or patern of that I graunt Mark good reader what maister Harding graunteth And sée whether maister Iuel doe say any more If he doe not how are the same words true when maister Harding speaketh them and not true when maister Iuel speaketh them vnlesse as we had of late a distinction of not bread and no bread so nowe we haue an other betwéene an example a sampler But how so euer it is without example or sampler he maketh mo distinctions and giueth suche a sampler of singular impudence that no mā that feareth God wil take example by him The B. of Sarisb Gracian sheweth that the decretall epistles haue bene doubted of among the learned Harding The .139 vntruthe Gracian shevveth no such thing Dering Gracians wordes are these De Epistolis decretalibus quaeritur an vim authoritatis habeant of the decretall Epistles there is doubt whether they haue authoritie How then is this an vntruth The word saith M. Harding that Gracian doth vse is quaeritur not dubitatur The question is moued not it is doubted Offerre peregrinis to offer for straungers is very good latine where this is any reason What meaneth this man doeth he so fede his affectioned vaine that he spareth not to discredit his owne learning that he feareth not to blot his owne honestie Fye vpon such fāsies Quaeritur is a latine word dubitatur is very barbarous But such as vse them both who knoweth not y t it is cōmon to them all to say sometime quaeritur sometime dubitatur meaning by either word there is doubt moued the Gréeke phrase 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is cōmonly translated Sed quaerat aliquis But one wil aske or dout The latines do al vse it Si quaeris if you doubt In his primis naturalibus voluptas insit nec ne magna quaestio est In these first naturall abilities whether there be any pleasure or no there is no great doubt Romani augures in magna quaestione habent The Romain Augurs do much dout what the bird Sanqualis is So immensa quaestio an infinite doubt perdifficilis et perobscura quaestio a verie difficult and obscure doubt and such one as this of M. Hardings is redicula quaestio a folish doubt The barbarous writers such as Gracian is and the other rable of M. Hardings friends they want cōmonly both good words and godly matter and they say sometime dubitatur but to be short there is neither question nor doubt but this vntruthe is very childish But what meaneth M. Harding to stand thus in defence of these decretall epistles He onely can bring for them a litle testimonie of Leo and Gelasius The epistles by no meanes can commende them selues Reade the Replie thou shalt sée them sufficientlie reproued But reade the Epistles and thou shalt see them more reproued The latine is so barbarous that neyther gentile nor Christian of that age did euer wryte the like The stile is so childish it is farre vnméete for the grauitie of those learned Bishoppes whose names they beare the metaphors are so grosse as no countryman would vse the like Among all other this is one Ostium circumstantiae eorum oribus imponere To put the dore of circumstaunce vpon theyr mouthes And what scholer would write this latine Eas inde abstrahere vbi traditae sunt to take them thence where they were layde Promere vltionem to reuenge Exilium deportationis for banishment pleniter fully Haec nobis bona operanda sunt We must doe these good things Inthronizare to enstall and porto standeth them in verie good stead Portare causas sacerdotum ▪ Subleuare et portare cadentes portare persecutiones euerie one a porter like phrase and moderna tempora and charitatiue and abbatissa and sanctae moniales And I wote not what There is nothing in them doeth so excede as ignoraunce And where is the like title euer founde Archiepisc. rom vrbis and Archiepisc. cath ecclesiae Romanae vrbis And primates metropolitani and fideles sancti Petri. Beside this that poore stuffe that they haue doeth hang so yllfauouredly together that Maister Harding him selfe can make of it no sense They alleage the scriptures without order or fashion and sometime they depraue them the Sodomites say vnto Lot thou camest into vs as a straunger Anterus sayth that God spake it In the first to Timothe the fift Chapter where Paule hath vidua Vrbanus hath anima Christe saith Cephas is a stone Anacletus sayth it is caput or principium the head or fountaine And besides this sundrie of those Epistles haue worde for worde the one which an other hath As Steph. 1. et 2. And Fab. 2. Luc. 1. And Faelix .3 the Epistle of Gaius Leon .1 And how coulde this haue happened if diuers men did write them But what nede we seke arguments against them looke vpon theyr doctrine Lucius forbiddeth mariage of Priestes and if a Priest go in vnto his owne wife he muste not communicate he must not so much as bring the cup to the alter they may not come within the church dores not withstanding Saint Paule sayth to forbid mariage is the doctrine of diuells Calixtus doeth forbid meates and sayth he that obserueth not the faste foure times in a yeare the same is a scismatike Anterus and Zepherius teacheth that we may not reprehende accuse iudge or condemne a Bishoppe of Rome Yet Saint Paule sayth Let a Bishoppe be vnblamable whereby it appeareth he may be blamed and againe he writeth Receiue not an accusation against an elder vnder two ▪ or three witnesses Then by like he will haue their faultes accused They iangle much of the supremacie of the Bishoppe of Rome Calixtus and Lucius doe seeme to say that he can not erre Yet Dauid saith euerie man is a lier Stephan saith he deserueth great vengeance that presumeth to touch the holy vestures Yet Christ saith that which is without a man defileth him not Pontianus doeth ende his first Epistle with a clause of idolatrie ascribing vnto Peter the opening
is included the receiuing of the Communion euerie sonday may be noted also by the way that by this authoritie of Fabian men and women made the sacrifice of the alter euen as S. Barnard saith Not onely the priest but also all the faithfull sacrifice do Harding The .157 vntruthe It is not included that they receiue euerie sunday The .158 vntruth Fabian doeth not attribute the making of the sacrifice to men and vvomen The .159 vntruth S. Barnard saith it not Dering This first vntruthe is that though they offred euerie sunday bread and wine yet it foloweth not that they receiued But this Maister Harding sayth onely and besyde gesses hath no sufficient proufe for it In fine thus he resolueth the matter This bread and wine was partly for the priest alone to receiue partly for the cleargie partly for the poore and partely to make holy bread of so this is become a verie beneficiall vntruth vnto Maister Harding it hath not onely encreased his number but it hath brought in an other article of his religion and that is at all a verie venture holy bread Here were good roome for one of Maister Hardings aunsweres this pelfe will not serue you must go séeke better stuffe The second vntruth here brought is this that men and women doe not make this sacrifice Fabians words are these Haec altaris oblatio ab omnibus viris et muâ—eribus fiat let this sacrifice of the alter be made of all men and women These words I trow are meetely plaine but Maister Harding aunswereth thus There is difference betwene an oblation and a sacrifice oblation is it when any thing is offered vnto the Lorde nothing done vnto it or in it A sacrifice is when a thing offred vnto God is by the priest altered by some thing don in it or vnto it for religion sake so the common people made the oblation of the alter but they made not the sacrifice of the alter It were to be wished good christian Reader that these distinctions were barred then we should haue lesse wrangling and fewer vntruths But they say all is well that endes well if by examination this distinction be founde good why should not Maister Harding vse it Theophilacte saith he Chrisostome and Paule him selfe haue so distinguished these words First though they hadde done so yet this were but a meane reason to proue they were in like sort vsed in Fabian The profe of Fabians meaning may not well be shewed but by Fabian him selfe But let vs sée what these Doctours saye on whome Maister Harding will â–ª grounde this distinction Theophilactus wordes are these Inter donum siue munus et hostiam siue victimam si exactam spectes rationem aliquid est discriminis quia victimae vel hostiae sunt per sanguineÌ„ et carnem oblationes vel quae per ignem sacrificantur dona sunt quaecunque alia incruenta et igni carentia Betwene 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is gifts and sacrifices this is the difference that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a sacrifice is an oblation made with fleshe and bloud or by fire 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a gift is that which is offred vnbloudie and without fire Of this place M. Harding doeth conclude that an oblation is a thing offered vnto God without any thing done vnto it but this argument hangeth as losely as any other commonly in M. Hardings booke A gift whereof Theophilacte speaketh is is in Greke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an oblation whereof M. Harding speaketh is in Gréeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So his reasoÌ„ hangeth thus A gift is that which without fire or bloud is offred vnto God as an oblation is that which hath nothing done vnto it This argument Christian Reader this is his owne reason neither better nor worse than he hath made it His second authoritie is out of Chrisostome his wordes likewise are these Oblatio erat quicquid extra sacrificium erat that was the oblation what so euer was beside the sacrifice and more than this he saith not now of these words how M. Hard. can frame his auÌ„swere to this authoritie of Fabian doutlesse no man that meaneth plainly can espie This is Chrisostomes meaning y â— dona were all those sacrifices or offerings prescribed saue onely such as were sinne offrings But M. Harding goeth further forâ—eth S. Paule as if of him he had learned his distinction how be it he neuer spake one word of it Yea the places by M. Hard â–ª alleaged do not so much as once name oblation then how doth he make this exacte difference of oblations Surely no authoritie had ben much better than these thrée nothing to the purpose In the meane season by M. Hardings good skil we may chaunge our coÌ„mon vse of speaking say no more burnt offring meate offring peace offring sin offering c. but rather thus burnt sacrifice meate sacrifice peace sacrifice sinne sacrifice so forth A proper distinction méete to interprete Fabian that coÌ„trolleth thus the phrase of the scripture Here foloweth yet an other vntruth that is about these words Non solus sacerdos sacrificat sed etiam totus conuentus fidelium Not only the priest sacrificeth but also all the companie of the faithfull This saith M. Harding is not true in M. Iuels sense For saith he that euery one of the people both men women in their own person do outwardly ministerially coÌ„secrate y e bodie bloud of Christ so offer make the sacrifice of the alter after the order of Melchisedech neither is it signified by the blessed martir S. Fabian neither was it euer before M. Iuels Replie came forth with such impudencie reported Better had it ben for M. Harding more credit for his vntruth if he had rested here y t M.I. named Bernard in stead of Guerricus For this report of M. Iuels meaning is nothing else but impudent folie For who would euer say that M. Iuels meaning is y e men and women sayd Masse such vntruth can be no better reproued than by shewing Maister Hardings proues The B. of Saris. But what if the verie words of these councels where vpon M. Harding hath found the Masse make manifest proofe against his Masse The words be these All secular christian folke be bound to receiue the communion at the least thrice in the yeare This relaxation or priuiledge is graunted onely to the secular christians whereof it foloweth necessarily that all ecclesiasticall persons as Priests Deacons Clerkes and others whatsoeuer of that sort were not excepted but stode still bounde to receiue orderly as they had done before and that was at all times whensoeuer there was any ministration Harding The .160 vntruth These be not the words of the councel The .161 vntruth This is no relaxation or priuiledge The .162 vntruth The ecclesiastical persons were not bound to receiue whensoeuer there was any ministration
impudens est procax Whosoeuer is present and dothe not Communicate he is shamelesse and malapert And in diuers places he warneth them to cease their euil doing with oft repetition of the dreadfull mysteries And to what purpose were that if they receiued not commonly The aucthoritie that is alleaged out of Augustine is taken out of Ambrose and it may wel be answered with the aucthoritie againe of Augustine taken out of Cyprian Hunc panem dari nobis quotidie postulamus c. This bread saith he we desire that it may be daily giuen vnto vs. c. Least while we be denied that heauenly breade we be seperate from the bodye of Christ. Héereby it appeareth in their assemblies the most of them receiued and to this effecte maister Iuel dothe alleage Conc. Matisc. 2 cap. 40. Concil Antisiodor Can. 42. Car. mag lib. 6. cap. 162. Now how so euer it liketh maister Harding to accept it all this must néedes stande for sufficient proofe For this seconde vntruthe héere brought that the contrarye is shewed by sundry recordes of this that we haue said it appeareth that this shewe as it is againe shewed is nothing worth Therefore the vse of receiuing in those dayes was as it is recorded euery sunday at the least but the receiuing in the Popes dayes is euery Easter and so both these vntruths are become none The B. of Saris. It was decreed by a councell holden at Gerunda in Spaine that all litle Churches in the countrey shold confourme them selues vnto the great cathedrall churches that were in cities and townes as well for order of the Communion as also for singing and other ministration But by M. Hardings owne graunt there was no priuate Masse in the cathedrall Churches Harding The .165 vntruth That councell speaketh neuer a vvorde in that canon of the Communion The .166 vntruthe I neuer made any suche graunt Dering Beleue not this mannes saying gentle reader if thou loue thine owne soule Marke first the aucthorities ere thou credite his reporte The words of the councel are these vt institutio missarum sicut in Metropolitana ecclesia agitur ita in dei nomine in omni Terraconensi prouincia tam ipsius missae ordo quam psallendo vel ministrando consuetudo seruetur That the institution of Masses euen as it is done in the Metropolitane Churches so in the name of God we wil that in al the prouince of Terraconia the same custome be kept in order in singing and in mynistration This canon is reported by Gracian who in stead of Terraconia putteth in all prouinces least maister Harding should make exception of any one countrey But saith he this decrée speaketh neuer a worde of the Communion Yet this decrée hath these expresse woords The institution of the Masse the order the maner of singing and the mynistration And the title of this decrée in Gracian is this as in the cathedrall Churches sic vbique missarum solennia celebrentur so euery where let the solemnitie of the Masse be kept and the glose saith Ostendit quod missa non debet aliter celebrari quam in Metropolitana ecclesia he sheweth that the Masse must be celebrated no otherwise than in the cathedrall Churches If the Communion in the Masse be no part of the institution nor order nor ministration it is a strange Communion and it is a straunge Masse that may be instituted and ministred without it But be it that this were so is maister Harding so vncourteous to his close Communion that he wil haue it no part of the solemnitie of his Masse He doth thē deserue very ill of it For it hath more prety gestures than all the Masse beside But what if maister Harding will denye all this What if he care neither for councel nor yet for Gracian What if he say it is no part of the institution order ministration nor yet of the solemnitie yet he cannot auoid y e glose that speaketh expresly without naming any circumstaunce that the Masse must be celebrate no otherwise in small Churches than it is in the Metropolitane churche Now except M. Harding do meane to teache vs by these distinctions that the Communion is no parte of the Masse it must be ministred in all Churches alike This is a miserable cause that M. Harding hath that to defend it must either fall into this absurditie that the Communion is no part neither of the institution of the Masse nor of the manner of singing nor of the order nor of the ministration nor of the solemnity nor of the Masse it self or else he must confesse this is no vntruth Now where he saith further for this other vntruth that he made no suche graunt that in cathedrall Churches there was no priuate Masse if it be true what a vain argument made he when he gessed at priuate Masse in little villages by the vse of Cathedral churches Reasoning after this sort that séeing ther were so few Communicants in the great citie of Antioche what was to be thought of small parishes Héere may wel appeare a secrete graunt that priuate Masses must be had in small townes in the countrey or else no where The B. of Saris. It appeareth by most certaine and vndoubted proofes that the people did receiue then euery sunday Harding The .167 vnt It appeareth not by ought that here is brought Dering In the .157 vntruthe master Harding said this was a foule vntruthe Héere he saith it is vntrue for ought that héere is brought so he somwhat qualifieth his former saying But yet this doing is straunge bicause the thing is certaine to make exception against the proofe more modestie might well haue yelded vnto the truthe How be it considering it is M. Hardings doing it is y e more sufferable Poets and painters may not be limitted in their inuentiōs But least the christian reader should be deceiued and haue some confidence of this vntruthe bicause it is twise reckened let vs sée these proofes which maister Harding saith are so vnsufficient The one is Decernimus vt omnibus dominicis diebus c. We decrée that euery sunday the oblation of the aultar be made of euery mā and woman This aucthority séemeth very sufficient if y e time do preiudice it in that thi◠councell was holden more than C. yeares after the councell of Agatha maister Harding must vnderstand it is an argument Minorae They receiued euery sunday in the time of the councel holden at Matiscona Ergo muche rather when the councel was at Agatha And in déede from that time our sauior Christ ascēded vntill the Pope sate aloft in the Church of God euery age as it was nearer vnto Christes time so they had more commonly their Communions The second profe y t M. Iuel bringeth is this vnaquaeque mulier c. Euery womā when she doth communicate let hir haue hir Dominical If she haue it not let hir not Communicate vsque in alium diem
his priuate Masse hath sought for Iohn Almonar in a priuate Chapple but the question is moued of the open church This Iohn Almonar liued at the least .610 yeares after Christ. The question is of .600 yeares onely So this fable may be well reiected both for that it is nothing to the purpose and if it were yet it is without the compasse of .600 yeares Yet Maister Iuel admitting the proofe doeth proue that it is a verie fable His reason is bicause no man might saye Masse at home Here let vs make the best of Maister Hardings aunswere and it is thus They might not say Masse in theyr houses but they might say them in their Chappels This aunswere is very absurde For who would say masse in his parlour or hall or kitchin hauing a Chapple And it is knowne to be false and taken away by Gracian saying Vnicuique fidelium in domo sua oratorium habere licet et ibi orare missas autem ibi concelebrare non licet euery man may haue a Chapple in his house pray there but he may not haue Masse in it Thus appeareth how vaine Maister Hardings exception is against these former authorities for that they haue in Domibus in their houses when Gracian alleaging the councell of Auleria vseth this word oratorium a Chaple notwithstanding Maister Harding concludeth thus we must seeke for better stuffe this is nothing worth so much securitie haue these men promised them selues that whatsoeuer they speake they think it shalbe beleued The B. of â–ª Saris. Maister Harding translateth falsâ—ly cum benedixisset sancta â–ª when he had consecrate the Sacrament Likewise post finem orationum after the prayer of consecration Harding The .177 vntruthe That translation is true The .178 vntruthe That translation is true Dering Now that this Apostata hath vomited vp a litle poisoned affection against the blessed bishop of Sarisburie he is laide downe againe like a swine to wallow in his former mire and as blinde bayard running forth he knoweth not whether quoteth mo vntruthes of his owne making My translation saith he is true His reasoÌ„ is this some doctors doe expounde benedicere for consecrare therefore that is so And the Grecians said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sancta sanctis therfore sancta is the Sacrament If Maister Harding that in his long epistle would so faine haue ben Appelles could with all his cunning picture out these argumentes we should haue the right shape of a fooles bable Benedicere saith he is construed of S. Ambrose by consecrare ergo it is so But it is construed otherwise by the Euangelists therefore it is not so Where S. Mathew and S. Marke say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when he had blessed he brake S. Luke and S. Paule say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when he had giuen thankes he brake Yea bothe Mathewe and Marke them selues say of the cuppe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when he had giuen thanks he gaue it Then if Benedixit be he did consecrate then Gratias egit is also he did consecrate and so the .180 vntruthe is verified that master Harding calleth some things that are not as if they were And I would faine know why maister Harding cleaueth so to this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it maketh nothing for his transubstantiation It is written in the Scripture 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 God blessed the seuenth day yet he turned not the nature of it So God speaketh vnto Abraham 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Surely in blessing I will blesse thée yet God vsed no manner of consecration so saith S. Paule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Who hath blessed vs in all manner of spirituall blessing In diuers other places of holy scripture thisword is vsed yet no where for this straunge manner of transubstantiation or other consecration than which we say in Latine consecrare which is to giue vp to ordaine to appoynt to an holy vse though it may be well said of the sacrament yet it is not in Gréeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but rather 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so that why he should translate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to consecrate there is no cause except suche cause as will haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifie nothing But saithe maister Harding some Doctors haue translated Benedicere by Consecrare Let vs graunt it suche is the libertie of speache that some worde is vsed in an impropre signification Dothe it folow bicause Benedicere may be to consecrate therfore Benedicere sancta is to consecrate the sacrament This gathering is very childishe Extruo is to builde vp Therfore is extruere mensam to build or make a table Interpello is to disturbe or interrupt therefore is interpellare debitoreÌ„ to interrupt or disturbe your debtour Expendere is to consider therfore is expendere poenas to consider punishment Sure this is a very idle proofe though Benedicere were to consecrate and sancta were the sacrament But now it is shewed that Benedicere is not to consecrate and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not the sacrament as Maister Iuel sheweth out of Chrysostome And in da de what reason is it that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sancta sanctis should be the sacrament not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sancta sanctorum should be likewise the sacrament Now for as muche as maister Harding cleaueth so vnto the Doctors that what so euer they say he straight taketh it for an Oracle we may say vnto him as our Sauior said vnto the Iewes Euen Moses in whome you trust shall be a witnesse against you so the Doctors shall be witnesses against master Harding and his felowes that when the Doctors do require to be iudged by the scriptures yet they without scriptures will ground their faith vpon them Cursed be he saith the Prophet that trusteth in man and maketh fleshe to be his arme For my parte I reuerence the Doctors and praise God for them they were good stewards and dispensed faithfully the goodes that were committed vnto them they were men of excellent learning great diligence and godly life and haue sufficiently confuted maister Hardings religion but yet they were men and had all their erroures Tertullian sayd God had a body and therefore he was reprehended of Augustine He thought not well in all poyntes of our sauioure Christe as appeareth in his bookes de Trinitate and aduersus Hermogenem Praxeam where he teacheth that Christe is a portion of his father Origen in diuers places wryteth very wickedly as appeareth by Epiphanius annumbring him among heretikes Cyprian sayde that Christe did satisfie onely for Originall sinne Methodius sayd we are iustified by fulfilling the lawe of nature as Epiphanius reporteth These were wicked heresies The doctors that folowed after had also many and great faultes I néede not recken maister Hardings Doctors Clemens Abdias Martialis Dyonisius Hyppolitus and suche other
iustifie them or were not silence the best aunswere to so great folies Let the Reader iudge The B. of Saris. If no bodie receiued then is it not true that some receiued Harding The .196 vntruth Chrisostome saith not that some receiued Dering If the last vntruthe were not worth the noting then what store hath he that is faine to number it twice Yet so it is this purposed number hath driuen M. Harding to such inconuenience The former vntruthe was Chrisostome said not some receiued with the priest this is he saith not some receiue if he would make the third that some receiue not with it had euen as good reason as either of these But let these vntruthes alone they cannot doe much harme Onely I must admonish thée that after this long ado with Maister Iuel Maister Harding for his exercise will fights little with him selfe Here he saith that Chrisostome saith not that some receiue yet out of this same place of Chrisostome alleaging these wordes Cum timore dei et fide et dilectione accedite he doeth english them thus come you vp to receiue with the feare of God c. These cōtrary sayings without one vntruth cannot be reconciled If there he wel translated it come vp to receiue then this is no vntruth If this be vntrue then that was a false translation One of these can not be denied The B. of Saris. He saith the people in the Cities were daylie taught by sermons Harding The .197 vntruthe I say not so let my booke be iudge Dering Maister Harding by like doth say and vnsay and careth not what he say These are his verie wordes Now if Chrisostome had cause to complaine of the peoples slacknesse in that great and populous citie of Antioche where the scriptures were daily expounded and preached c. And here I say as Maister Harding saith let his booke be iudge And why then is this vntruth scored vp with other Would he haue vs think that this preaching were onely in Antioche and no where else This might well be if papistrie hadde ben then in vre and preaching not regarded But to think it of that world in which good religion florished and Gods word was plentifull it is an vncharitable gessing Thus much I speake graunting Maister Hardings wordes that in Antioche the people were daily taught And then if it were so the same vse had ben likewise kept in other cities so Maister Hardings owne wordes going for true this can be no vntruth but how true those wordes are Maister Iuel doeth sufficiently proue reade his Replie he doeth alleage Chrysostomes owne wordes to proue that in Antioche they had sermons but once a wéeke and therevpon he saith further thus The B. of Saris. I note this not for that I mislike of daily preaching but for that vntruth so boldelie presumed should not passe vntouched Harding The .198 vntruth It is no vntruth Dering I am sorie to trouble the reader with aunswering to so vaine vntruthes but so it is if nothing should be said they would be thought of some force Maister Harding vseth this reason to proue his priuate Masse In Antiochie there was but a verie few to communicate sometime Therfore in the countrey belike there was priuate Masse Of this argument Maister Iuel saith thus to aduaunce the citie to abase the countrey he saith in cities they had dayly sermons but this is vntrue For in Antioche they had not so Now rise M. Hardings two vntruthes 1. I say not they were taught so in cities 2. They were taught so in Antioche Who could haue scraped out these vntruthes but he Or what force is there in them For this second vntruth where he still affirmeth they had dayly preaching in Antioche that is a very false lie and yet how impudently doth be persist in it The B. of Saris. Yet saith Maister Harding in small countrey churches either the Priest let cease the dayly sacrifice or else he receiued alone Harding The .199 vntruth I say not so This is altogether falsified Dering I pray God Maister Harding be not altogether without grace He so vnreuerently speaketh euill of authoritie so boldely denieth his owne sayings that his cause is much to be feared Marke here Maister Iuels wordes I will lay M. Hardings wordes with them then iudge whether here be any vntruth Thus he writeth of such countrey churches it must be sayd that either the sacrifice ceased c. Or that the memorie of our Lords death was oftentimes celebrated of the Priestes in the daily oblation without tarying for others to communicate with them Marke now how Maister Iuel chaungeth these wordes either the daily sacrifice ceased saith Maister Harding either the priest let cease the daily sacrifice saith Maister Iuell What is here falsified If it dyd cease the Priest ceased it For I trow the lay man might not say Masse if he would The other péece of Maister Hardings saying is this or else the memorie of our Lords death was often times celebrated of the priestes in the daily oblation without tarying for other to communicate with them These many words bicause oftedious writing Maister Iuell reporteth this or the priest receiued alone Now iudge of this place which Maister Harding saith is altogether falsified and praye that Maister Harding may once haue eies to sée The .200 vntruth Here Maister Harding noteth an vntruth in the margin that is not in the text When he telleth vs what it is we will better examine it The B. of Saris. The Masse that is so glorious can neither be founde in churches nor chappels Harding It is found both in churches and chappels Dering It is not yet found neither in church nor chappell within .600 yeares of Christ. The B. of Saris. Thus saith Chrysostome if thou stand by and not receiue thou art malapert thou art shamelesse thou art impudēt 2. thine eies be vnworthie the sight herof vnworthie be thine eares 3. O thou wilt say I am vnworthie to be partaker of the holie mysteries then art thou vnworthie to be partaker of the praiers 4. Thou maist no more stay here than an heathen that ueuer was christened Harding The .202 vntruthe Chysostome doeth not say these vvordes The .203 vntruthe Chrysostome saith not then an heathen vnchristened Dering Sure good Reader the numbring of these vntruthes is verie straunge here is one Chrysostome saith not these wordes an other he saith not then an heathen c. I would faine know here in the first vntruth what Maister Harding meaneth by these words If he meane the whole sentence why maketh he an other truth If he meane all the sentence going before this latter vntruth why doeth he not make of it thrée seuerall vntruthes For it is distinguished into thrée seuerall sentences or if he think but one of those sentences is false why doeth he not tell vs which it is Certaine it is Maister Harding did know that these former partes of this allegation were all true
Yet bicause they had so many members he thought he might conuey one vntruth verie well amongst them For the truth of this allegation reade S. Chrysostome hom 3. ad Ephe. and thou shalt beleue thine owne sences I will alleage for thée certaine words Reade y e place thou shalt finde moe Thus be saith of those that are by and will not receiue 1. Tu vero impudenter astas thou standest by verie impudently 2. quisquis mysteriorum particeps non est impudens est et improbus si adstat he that is present and will not communicate he is impudent and wicked 3. Indigni sunt videntium oculi indignae aures thine eies are not worthy to see it thine eares are not worthie to heare it 4. Nihil hic tibi qùā cathecumeno plus licet Thou hast no more to do here thē cathecumeni they that are vnchristened and not yet brought to the perfect faith of Christ here is this second vntruth also proued Marke now these wordes and sée whether Maister Iuel report any thing that Chrysostom saith not Thē Maister Harding with shame enough hath noted these vntruths and for his these words except he meane his owne wordes here can be none found that are not in the author Ad. Eph. hom 3. and make but little for his Masse The B. of Saris. Chrysostome saith in vaine doe we come to offer the daylie sacrifice in vaine doe we stand at the alter meaning thereby as may appeare that if he saide priuate Masse for lacke of companie it was in vaine Harding The .140 vntruth These are not Chrysostomes vvordes nor this his meaning Dering Here M. Hard. séemeth to be somewhat more liberall in numbring his vntruths he might well haue made two vntruthes of this one these are not Chrysostomes wordes an other this is not his mening Sure he is not wont to let go such aduantage but peraduēture he saw here so little hope that he would be content with one vntruthe quietlie Yet bicause we defende the truth we may not alow him that First for Chrysostomes wordes thus they are Frustra habetur quotidiana oblatio frustra stamus ad altare In vaine doe we offer the daylie sacrifice in vaine doe we stande at the altar Here is this vntruth verified concerning the words say Maister Harding what he say will If these be not the wordes then accompt me for a lier If they be the wordes then iudge of the vntruth as touching y e meaning of these wordes were it not for Maister Hardings faultfinding it shold sure haue escaped without blame he saith y e meaning is this it is in vaine as touching the people not as touching the Priest this meaning is vntrue for Chrysostome saith Frustra stamus we that be the ministers stande there in vaine But for my parte I would this distinction were good then we should know throughly what marchandise these Masses were Saith M. Haridng they are in vaine for the people except they come and receiue Good Lorde how do they then mock the people that teach them to come dayly and gase vpon their Masses blessed be truth that breaketh out All priuate Masse is ill and all Masse gasers doe wickedlie the frute of Gods sacraments are not applied to those that will not come and be partakers of them If Maister Harding haue lost so much of his cause by noting one vntruth in this place what would he haue done if he had noted a couple The B. of Saris. Here Maister Hardyng seing that his Masse euen by his owne testimonie is shreudly crackt assayeth to salue it as well as he may Harding The .205 vntruth I see not that the Masse is crackt Dering In this vntruth we haue two things to note Maister Hardings sight and the cracking of his Masse As touching his sight I can say little But I doe easely beleue it is not verie good There are a great many authorities in this first article which he can not sée to aunswere one whit sometime two or thrée leaues together in which he can not sée to cōfute one word His owne writings are so ful of darknesse and cloudes of errours that he can not sée to come nigh the truth and yet in this great shadowe of his eies he proueth effectually the common prouerbe who is so bold as blinde bayard For the cracking of his Masse he can say but little onely in defence of that mishapen strumpet he vseth vncomly language against the Bishop of Sarisburie But how can a wicked cause be better defended than with euill speaking For his Lady Missa she is as she is Thanks be to God for the victorie she is well crackt of late she hath glorified hir selfe and liued in pleasure she hath ben full of triūphes signes of victorie she hath dwelt carelesse in hir fensed cities she hath said in hir heart I am none else I am no widow I shall sée no morning Now whether this glorie be yet crackt or no and these proude pecocks feathers falne downe hir owne heauie lookes doe sufficiently witnesse Hir widowhed commeth fast vpon hir and manie of hir louers are run away hir owne barrennesse increaseth daily and hir children wax few in number the multitude of hir diuinations haue brought euill vpon hir hir fornications and idolatries haue seperated betwene God and hir And can Maister Harding yet think that his Masse is still vncracked hir dominions were verie large wide and hir kingdomes plentifull hir buildings were costly verie sumptuous and hir cofers rich hir apparell was gorgious of nedel worke set out in most pleasant colours hir ornaments of inameled golde bewtifull with manie iewlls and precious stones and for the full measure of hir accomplished glorie she had the Princes of the earth to minister hir cuppes vnto hir Kings to be hir waiting seruants and Emperours to hold hir fotestoole If this estate were yet in hir woūted royaltie then might Maister Harding well say that his Masse were not cracked Now seing all is lost hir buildings are pulled downe hir fortresses batered hir treasuries spoiled her estimation lost and she hir selfe set without the quire we giue thankes vnto God that hath giuen this victorie and we are sorie for Maister Hardings blindnesse that can not yet sée how his Masse is crackt The B. of Saris. If none communicate yet saith he the Masse is not vaine in it selfe but onely as touching the people that will not come Harding The .206 vntruth I say not so Dering Here M. Hard. willing to stop that great inconuenience that riseth of his .204 vntruth maketh a flat deniall of his owne wordes and lest this contrarietie should bréed any péece of discredit he goeth about with a distinction to salue the whole matter whereby he hath got this double commoditie a plaister for his Masse which before he hadde wounded an vntruthe to make vp his proposed number And his distinction is this I say not y t the Masse
is in vaine but that the oblation is in vaine making a great difference betwene his Masse and oblation But this matter doth not so well thriue as Maister Harding wéeneth his Masse and oblation must néedes be both one else how could his Masse be saide to be a sacrifice propitiatorie for quick and dead sith the sacrifice can onely be ment by the oblation But let vs take Maister Hardings words as they are The oblatioÌ„ saith he is in vaine to the people that will not come Here he speaketh not onely against his companions but against the Pope and against his Masse booke The decrée saith the oblation is good that is offred for Iudah and Ierusalem that is for them that coÌ„fesse the Lord. And the masse booke saith Hanc oblationem offerimus pro ecclesia tua sancta catholica We offer this oblation for the whole catholike church Yet saith Maister Harding this oblation is in vaine If he him selfe will thus speake against Pope and portus he may peraduenture crack his Masse ere he be ware But it is well We take that Maister Harding graunteth except the people receiue the celebration or sacrifice made by y e priest is in vaine so his priuate Masse is quitâ— condemned The B. of Saris. If Maister Harding will stand vnto the authoritie of Chrysostome let him not dissemble but speake plaine vnto the people as Chrysostom spake Let him say to theÌ„ that come to heare his masse if ye receiue not ye are shamelesse ye are impudent you are not worthie to be partakers of the common prayers Depart you from the Church ye haue no more place here than Turks and heathens your eyes be vnworthy to see these things vnworthy be your eares our Masses can not profite you they are not meritorious for you they please not God they prouoke his anger they are all in vaine This is Chrysostomes sense and plaine meaning Harding The .207 vntruthe These are not his words The .208 vntruthe Nor his meaning Dering Héere I must craue of the indifferent Reader to note this manner of quoting vntruthes Of these very words of Chrysostome before he made two vntruthes the .202 and .203 Here of them all he maketh but one Yet if there be but one nowe there was but one afore and so one vntruthe is made thrée Againe before he made no vntruth as touching the meaning now he maketh one Yet if there be one now there was one afore so of two vntruthes which is very vnlike he will nuÌ„ber but one againe in the .204 vntruthe he maketh but one vntruthe bothe of the words and meaning héere seuerally he maketh one of either this diuersitie of gathering must néedes shewe a matter of little waight Now as touching these two vntruthes and the wordes héere saide of maister Iuel he neither saith nor meaneth that they are al in Chrysostome But alleaging certaine as is shewed in the .202 vntruth he héere addeth more For example to shew the Massing priestes how they should speake vnto the people What troweth maister Harding to persuade the people that maister Iuel maketh Chrysostome to speake of their Masses Héere in these words the Masse is plainely named yet y e good father did neuer know what suche spirituall whoredomes did meane And yet héere M. Harding to cary away the readers vnderstanding in his railing spirite he speaketh great blasphemies against Gods electe and calleth him the forerunner of Antichrist whome God hath appointed one to be an ouer runner of the Romish Idolatries But God be praised in all his saints The B. of Saris. Now let vs examine this inuincible argument wherwith euery childe as Maister Harding saith is able to proue the priuate Masse Harding The .209 vntruthe I say not so let my booke be iudge Dering These are his woords of this most euident place of Chrysostome euery childe is able to make an inuincible argument against master Iuel for the priuate Masse these are his very wâ—ords I say as he saith let the booke be iudge and he that is found a lier let him haue the blame The B. of Saris. This is M. Hardings argument The sacrifice in Chrysostomes time was daily offred But many times none came to Communicate Ergo there was priuate Masse Heere the Maior is apparant false the Minor is proued at aduenture Harding The .210 vntruthe The Maior is true The .211 vntruthe The Minor is well proued Dering In the .133 vntruthe maister Iuel proued by S. Augustine â–ª that in some place the people receiued euery day there maister Harding dothe note that for vntrue héere maister Iuel proueth by S. Augustine that in some place they receiued not euerye day Hâ—ere likewise maister Harding noteth this for vntrue And yet howe can bothe these be vntrue More circumspect behauioure in so false dealing hadde bene necessary Now as touching bothe these sayings of maister Iuel that somewhere the people did receiue euery day somewhere only on certaine dayes let S. Augustines woordes be witnesses Thus he wryteth The Sacrament of the body of Christ is receiued somewhere euery day alicubi certis interâ—allis dierum somewhere on certaine dayes only As long as this aucthoritie may stande for good maister Iuels saying hath a good warrant And though it were not good yet maister Hardings two vntruthes must néedes one ouerthrow an other As touching this other vntruthe that none came to receiue with the priest sée whether it be proued at aduenture or no. Thus maister Harding saith if there were but fewe to Communicate in that great and famous Churche of Antioche what may be thought of a thousand lesser churches c. Nowe whether this proofe be at all aduentures and a bare gesse it is soone iudged Concerning Chrysostomes aucthority here read the Replie The B. of Saris. As for the Maior it is plaine by the .6 councell of Constantinople by S. Augustine vpon S. Iohn by S. Basil ad Caesariam patritiam by the Epistle of the councel of Alexandria in defence of Macarius and by the councell of Laodicea and by sundry other aucthorities to that purpose before alâ—eaged that the sacrifice was not daily offred Harding The .212 vntruthe S. Augustine hath the contrary Dering If S. August speake contraries he is sure the more to blame but who séeth not by S. Augustines plaine woordes in this former vntruthe alleaged that where he saith the sacrifice is daily offred it is to be ment of certaine places not of all This vntruthe is directly contrary to the 83.133.14-5.156 vntruthes But what skilleth that where M. Harding may be beleued Héere note that all these other aucthorities are coÌ„trolled and yet notwithstaÌ„ding M. Harding presumeth vpoÌ„ his vntruths Sure the number was appointed too large that coulde not be made vp without suche foule shifts The B. of Sarisb Maister Harding saw that this is but a slender proofe Chrysostome ministred euery day therfore he receiued alone Harding The .213 vntruth Maister Harding
in the congregation receiueth alone Theophylacte a later wryter vpon the same place saith Why should we pray our selues Quia haudquaquam meritò id mysterium sumunt multi bicause many do receiue that mysterie nothing worthely By all these Doctors this place is ment of the Communion S. Ambrose saith It any man be impacient domi terreno pane pascatur Let him eate earthly bread at home And againe we come to gether vt multorum oblatio simul celebretur that the Oblation of many might be made together But S. Ambrose calleth not prophane meats suche as their common feasts were either heauenly bread or our oblation S. Chrysostome saith qui hoc non faciunt indigne communicant they that tary not one for an other doe communicate vnworthily And héere againe we sée this Doctors minde of priuate Masse or as M. Harding wil haue it of the priestes sole receiuing Beda saith likewise alleaging S. Augustine Ad Ianuar. Epist. 1. that this which the Apostle writeth in this place is ment of the Communion S. Ierome also dothe so enterprete it Read all these vpon the xj chapter of the first Epistle to the Corinthians Of the same minde are also Augustine Basil Gregorius Romanus And if thou rest vpon the aucthoritie of men examine all the olde Doctors that haue written vpon the same place not them only but suche as are of yonger age as Thomas Scotus Lyra Hugo gloss ordinaria and suche other They all agrée this saying of S. Paule tary one for an other is ment of the Communion Dionysius Carthusianus on the same place speaketh very plaine when ye come together to eate saith S. Paule Panem coelestem saith Dionysius the heaueÌ„ly bread videlicet corpus Domini that is to say the body of the Lord. And Nicholas of Gorram vpon these woordes tary one for an other wryteth thus Docet modum in hora communionis ordinate accedendo he teacheth howe to come orderly in the time of Communion What plainer aucthoritie can there be than these Who séeth not that all antiquitie haue vnderstande S. Paules words of the Communion If thou search them thine eyes shall be thy witnesse Yet saithe maister Harding as he were priuiledged without blame or discredite to speake what he would that Martyr Caluine Cranmer and suche other haue deceiued maister Iuel but it is wonderfull to sée howe he speaketh against the truthe the Lord knoweth whether against his owne conscience Read the Replie Fol. 94. thou shalt further sée â–ª how in the Communion the people came togither But as touching this place bicause the spirite of God is not tied to any man or age we will leaue our witnesses and examine the place First S. Paule blameth them bicause they come togither not with profite but with hurt And then teaching how they ought to come togither and in what sorte to haue their méetings he teacheth them by the example of our sauior Christ and his doctrine saying â–ª that which I haue receiued of the Lord that I haue deliuered vnto you that Iesus Christ in y e same night y t he was betrayed tooke bread c. making a full description of the Lords supper whereunto be adioyneth for this cause many of you are weak c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For this cause which is the vnorderly receiuing the communion Yet saith M. Harding it is ment of their feastes After this it dothe folow in Paule Wherfore my brethren when you come togither to eate tary one for an other Now if this be not yet plaine inough that he meaneth of the Sacrament then looke what foloweth an vndoubted proofe of the whole matter Least saith S. Paule you come togither to your condemnation Is this at any time pronounced of any manner eating but of the vnworthy eating of that blessed sacrament Yet for the priuate Masse sake this plaine scripture must be denyed and impudently wrested into a straunge sense And marke héere how maister Harding would haue S. Paule reason the woordes before are plaine of the Lordes supper Of those words S. Paule concludeth wherefore my brethren c. Then by maister Hardings meaning S. Paule should reason thus A man must prepare him selfe to receiue the Communion Ergo they must tary one for an other at their common feastes such lose arguments the spirite of truth doth not vtter But suche is M. Hardings fashion he dothe not consider how he wresteth Gods scripture while he thus defendeth his vngodly Masse The B. of Saris. The like decrees are found vnder the names of Calixtus Anacletus Martinus Hyllarius and others by which it is certain that the whole church then receiued togither Harding The .221 vntruthe It is not certaine by those decrees Dering Sée the .151 vntruthe It is the same in effecte that this is But let vs sée héere also how truely M. Harding speaketh It doeth not appeare by these decrées saith he that all receiued togither this shall be best tried by the words of the Decrées Calixtus saith thus When consecration is done let all communicate which will not be excluded out of the Churche Anacletus hath the very selfe same woords but how it cometh to passe let the Decretal epistles sée that haue this agréement very often and yet it is very straunge that diuers menne should speake the same woordes Hylarius saythe if thy sinnes be not so great that thou must be excommunicate thou must not seperate thy selfe from the body and bloude of the Lorde Martinus sayth If any man heare the scriptures readen and of a superstitious minde doe thinke he should not Communicate sette him be excommunicate now iudge whether these decrées teach that the whole church should receiue together M. Harding can answere nothing but bringeth two distinctions one olde one which we had before in the .151 vntruthe an other he maketh more to answere Pope Hilarie and that is this where Hilarie saith If he be not excommunicate let him not abstaine from the sacrament We may abstaine saith M. Harding sacramentally though not spiritually If these distinctions may be alowed ther is no aucthoritie so good but let M. Harding slip and he wil answer it But S. Paule saith take héede y t no man spoile you through Philosophy and vaine deceit The B. of Sarisb Chrysostome saith we are all of one worthinesse to receiue the mysteries Harding The .222 vntruthe He saith not so Dering These are Chrysostomes words Est autem vbi nihil differt sacerdos a subdito vt quaÌ„do fruendum est horrendis mysterijs Similiter enim omnes vt illa percipiamê° digni habemur there is a time saith he when the priest dothe differ nothing from the lay man as when they must enioy the dreadful mysteries For we are al accompted of like worthinesse to receiue them And that we should not doubt of his meaning he maketh afterward along discourse to proue this same Yet saith master Harding it is false it is vntrue Chrysostome saith
not we are all of like worthinesse to receiue the mysteries And what saith he else How doeth M. Harding otherwise interprete him Forsoth saith he these woords similiter omnes vt illa percipiamus digni habemur must be thus Englished We are accompted worthy of the selfe same things in like sort not we are all of one worthinesse to receiue them Who hath hearde one in so graue a matter speake so childishly the very woords of Chrysostome vt percipiamus he wil not haue Englished as they lie And bicause M. Iuel doth so English them suche is his impudencie he notes it for an vntruthe But suche to whome God hath giuen the spirite of knowledge and truth they will confesse how he doeth wrangle and if he haue any grace himselfe as oft as he remembreth these vntruthes he wisheth they were againe vnder his file The B. of Saris. Missa in the time of Tertullian and Cyprian was especially applied vnto the Communion Harding The .223 vntruthe It is not so as you meane Dering M. Hard. harpeth much on M. Iuels meaning But vntruths must not be built vpon gesses Read the .169 vntruthe The B. of Saris. Cataechumeni were present at the Communion till the Gospell was done Harding The .224 It was not the Communion they were present at Dering I graunt it wrangle on M. Iuel confesseth when the Gospel was done they were bid depart what a single vntruthe is this What troweth M. Harding we doe not know that that part of seruice which they heard was called Missa cathechumenorum Or doeth he thinke that the gospel was not red in that seruice This vntruthe ariseth bicause he wil not vnderstand not bicause he doeth not M. Iuel calleth that the Communion which was the whole seruice appointed for the celebration of the Lordes supper At the beginning whereof the Nouices in the faithe of Christ might be present till the deacon cried Exeunto catechumeni which was after the gospell was red The B. of Saris. We pray not aide of sicke folkes for the proofe of our holy Communion as M. Harding is driuen to doe for his Masse Harding The .225 vntruthe I proue not the Masse by them Dering This vntruthe is before sixe times Read the .215 vntruthe ¶ Thus are we come to an ende of this weary Reioinder wherein we sée to what issue M. Hardings great vaunts are come his tragicall exclamations in how small matters there be ended and his multitude of vntruthes how without truth they be gathered He tolde vs that this Replie was altogither corrupt and false yet are there a great many leaues in this first article of which he hath not confuted one word what he would haue done in case it had bene blameable this Reioinder dothe sufficiently witnesse He cried out of corruptions alterations manglings and I wote not what of the olde fathers but quid dignum tulit hic tanto promissor hiatu what hath he brought forthe worthy of so wide gaping These vntruthes that were so many in number are now proued none The controlling of so many aucthorities is found nothing but wrangling The often blaming of diuers interpretations is tried either childishe or wilful ignoraunce And some of his owne Doctors on whome with much boasting he had grounded his priuate Masse in the ende he hathe turned to their owne defence With so ill successe he hath impugned truthe And with so slender proofe he hath defended falshood Of these 225. vntruthes which he hath brought some he saithe may be coloured some be shamelesse lies And in déede his testimonie well applied is true For most of them without shame are impudently gathered Some as he hathe vsed them may bring suspition of ouersight But what they are and howe voide of deserued blame it shall appeare if thou reade this Confutation in the which for thy contentation good Christian Reader I must assure thée that I haue not alleaged one aucthoritie wherein I either abridge the authors wordes or enterlace any other of mine owne either else misconstrue his meaning Only sometime bicause the wryting is tedious I alleage the sense and referre thée vnto the place where thou maist examine the wordes If any one of all the lande of Louanists be able to reproue me I wil not let openly to preache it that I haue offended God giue them and vs bothe grace to consider that it is now no time to dally The matter is not suche that it may abide any wrangling The cause is Gods and he néedeth not to be defended with lies If in his cause we goe about deceite by vttering falshoode or by concealing truthe by making moe distinctions or by framing Latine as we liste God is not mocked How so euer we will paint our doings or what clokes of shame so euer we will vse it is true that the Poete saythe Ille dolum ridens quo vincula nectitis inquit He laughing at oure deceitfulnesse shall aske to what purpose we haue tied suche deuises He is truth and he will be defended by truthe and he hateth all those that doe speake lies Therefore good Christian Reader persuade thy selfe that as we haue our accomptes to make vnto him that iudgeth truely so wittingly and willingly we will speake nothing that shall burden oure owne Consciences before his iudgement seate True it is we be menne and as menne we may be deceiued The Prophet hath pronounced the vniuersall sentence and we be all borne vnder the lawe of it that euery manne is a lier therfore to chalēge vnto my doing any such absolute veritie as though no piece of it might be blamed it wer great arrogācie and extreme folly this is sufficient to the indifferent mā and a full contentation vnto mine owne conscience that the Lord is witnesse I know not of any one vntruth I haue vttred And for this great number wherewith M. Iuel is charged better it had bene for M. Harding to haue made them fewer more it might haue hindred M. Iuels cause To deny that any wher he might be deceiued were to exempt him out of the condition of man But these .225 vntruthes in one article while they must be multiplied M. Harding telleth one many times maketh straunge interpretations diuiseth new distinctions in suche sort that euery man may espie his folly God for his mercyes sake lighten once his heart y t yet again he may sée whether he goeth and leade them the way back◠againe vnto rightuousnesse before whome he hath runne so long towarde the kingdome of iniquitie that in the day of anger when euery one shall giue accompt of his doings we may be all founde together in the way of obedience and by grace receiue that eternal kingdome which is not due vnto our workes Which kingdome God graunt vs through the death and passion of his sonne our sauioure Iesus Christ to whome with the father the holy ghost be al honor and glory world without ende Amen Ierem. 8.9 The wise men as ashamed they