of such an Apostle so by litle and litle it grew froÌ„ one countrie to an other vntill it was spredd ouer the whole Christian world So that some countries had not the new Testament complete that is all the bookes of it for a long time Wherefore no wonder that some haue doubted of seuerall parts thereof being not able to auerre as not assured by reason of some accident that such bookes were truly the workes of such an Apostle or Disciple which not withstaÌ„ding Why the canon of scripture is cheefely to be had from Rome better intelligeÌ„ce being gotten might be afterwards receiued for scripture And here you may note by the way that the Roman church is that church to which in reason wee ought to giue most credit touching the canon of the scripture For Rome being at that time â—that is at least for the first 300 yeares to the Christian world or rather to all the Christians dispersed in diuers parts of the world as London is to England And that wee see the collection of things estimable dispersed in seuerall Prouinces of our Kingdome is sooner and better made in London then in anie other part of our Countrie it must needes follow that the collection of the Holy scripture or new Testament was more exactly faisable at Rome then at anie other place But this by the way For my ayme is to make you iudge whether anie one substantiall point The state of the questioÌ„ which the Apostles whith common conseÌ„t preached through the whole world compared to anie one booke of the new Testament which soeuer you thinke first or best receiued whether I say of these two haue descended vnto vs with more certaintie the one to be the Apostles doctrine the other to be such an Apostle's booke Nephew I should distinguish your question for ether it may be compared to that particular Prouince or church where the Apostle him selfe deliuered it both in word and writing or to the whole church And I confesse that in respect of the whole church that point of doctrine which is euerie where preached must needes haue more certaintie but where both are equaly deliuered by the same Apostle to the same church I should thinke the worke should haue more authoritie theÌ„ the word For t' is an easie matter to let slipp a word some times Whereas writing requireth a more setled consideration Vncle. If the question be but of a particular church or Prouince I doubt it will not be sufficient to giue vs a firme authoritie for ether one or the other vnlesse we add more circumstances then we haue declared And the reason is because one Prouince maye haue had Religion so ruinated in it by the incursion of infidells that recouering theÌ„ selues after a long time they may as well mistake one booke for an other as one doctrine for an other and so this point is not much to our pourpose Although euen in this case the doctrine taught by word of mouth hath these aduantages That it is deliuered to manie the booke to few or in some one place The doctrine heard and vnderstood by manie the booke only to such as can reade nor to all them nether but to such as are carefull The booke belonge's not much to the practize of the multitude the doctrine gouernes their whole liues The booke brought often times by some one maÌ„ as some messeÌ„ger if it be an Epistl or other wise sent from some other place or froÌ„ some one person as from Titus of Timotheus to whom it was first written and vpon whose authoritie only the whole veritie must originally rely But to returne to our case Doe you not see that the whole church trusteth some one particular man at the first vpon whom she buildeth hir beliefe tht this is such an Apostles worke that is scripture But for anie materiall point of doctrine she relyeth vpoÌ„ the vniuersall knowledge of theÌ„ who heard it preached in diuers parts of the world So that as I doe not intende to say the one is certaine the other not for a particular churche's authoritie may be certaine in some circonstances yet I must needes say that betwixt these two certainties there is such a differeÌ„ce that if the one were to bring in verdict vpon the other it would be much more forcible and euident to conclude that this booke is scripture because it is according and conformable to the doctrine taught and preached then that this doctrine is the Apostle's because it is conformable to this booke For if it be true that the whole church once relyed vpon some one particular church for this veritie it can neuer come to passe that the certaintie of this booke proue greater then was the authoritie of that particular church at that time And consequently the same comparison which is to be made betwixt the authoritie of this particular church and of the vniuersall church the same I say is to be made betwixt the certaintie of this booke 's being scripture and of this point of doctrine's being catholike and Apostolike And for the inconuenience you were jealous of it falleth out quitt contrarie For whether we considere the inspiration and assistance of the holy ghost or the industrie aed carefullnesse of man you shall euer finde that the end is more principally aymed at then the meanes to compasse the end and likewise amongst diuers meanes the most immediate to the end is still most aymed at wherefore in our case the end both of writing and speaking being the deliuerie of this doctrine for the good of the people no doubt I say but that both the AssistaÌ„ce of the holy ghost and the care of man tendeth more principally to the deliuerie of this doctrine then to other things that came in by chance in which only there might be a slipp as you immagine Wherefore sithence tradition containeth not all the words the Apostles spoke but meerely what belong's to ChristiaÌ„ doctrine which was principally deliuered and the cheefe errand of the Apostles and that in the scriptute manie things are written vpon occasion and as it were by the bye no doubt but in both these respects to wit of the assistance of the holy ghost and of the care of man the certaintie will be greater of the doctrine deliuered by word of mouth theÌ„ of the holy writt Besides the slipps you speake of are when things are only once deliuered or spoken without great premeditation whereas this doctrine was a thing perpetually beaten on so as there can be no feare of such slipping HoW the old Testament came to Christians hands For the ould TestameÌ„t as I confesse t' is possible that the Apostles might haue deliuered it in all Countries where they preached so likewise I thinke t' is euident that they neuer did it being that the church hath no such memorie And that the Canon hath beene doubted of by some and the Iewish Canon alleadged whereof there had beene no vse nor neede if the
Apostles had left to all churches the booke it self It is likely therefore that the ould Testament was brought in by the first Christians ' of the CircuÌ„cision who accepted of those bookes which they saw the Apostles honnor and make vse of and from them it came to the Gentill Christians and so by litle and litle was accepted of by all the Christian church with the same veneration that the Apostles and Iewish Christians gaue vnto it But how soeuer shall wee not thinke at least §. 3 That tradition for scripture is more vniuersall then traditioÌ„ for doctrine NEphew Surely vncle for my part I caÌ„not thinke but that the scripture hath a more vniuersall tradition theÌ„ anie point of Christian doctrine or at least then anie of those which are disputed betwixt vs and the Protestants seeing that all Christians doe agree in the acceptation of the scripture and farr fewer in diuers pointes of doctrine For such churches as are in communion with the church of Rome are no such extraordinarie part of christendome if they were compared to all the rest Vncle. For the Extent of the churches I cannot certainely tell you the truth because I feare manie are caled ChristiaÌ„s who haue litle ether in their beliefe or liues to verifie that name But you know in witnesses the qualitie is to be respected as well and more theÌ„ the quantitie So that such couÌ„tries in which Christianitie is vigorous are to be preferred before a greater Extent of such as are where litle remaines more then the name But to come neerer to your difficultie suppose that in a suite in law one side had seuen lawfull witnesses the other had as manie and twentie knights of the post knowne periured knaues or vnlawfull witnesses more would you cast the other side for this wicked rable Nephew No truly for seing the law doth inualidate their testimonie I should wrong the partie to make anie accompt of them and therefore I should judge the parties equall Vncle. Why then you see that who will challenge a more vniuersall Tradition for scripture then for doctrine must first be certaine that there is no lawfull exception against those Christians whom he calleth to witnesse to witt against the Armans NestoriaÌ„s Eutychians and the like Now the Catholike church accounteth these men wicked in the highest degree that is guiltie of Heresie and schisme And therefore the partie which esteemeth of their witnesse must by taking of them for honnest men beare him self for their fellow and account the Roman church wicked and not fitt for testimonie from whom neuerthelesse he hath receiued what soeuer he hath of Christ Besides the witnesse and testimonie which these men giue is only that they receiued scripture from that church which excluded them from communion at their beginnings and euer continued in opposition against them to witt the Catholike Wherefore it is euident that their testimonie addeth nothing to the testimonie of the Catholike church but only declareth what the testifieth nor consequently maketh anie traditioÌ„ more vniuersal Let vs therefore now see whether §. 4 The text of scripture can haue remained incorrupted or no. FOr hitherto we haue only compare the and 〈◊〉 of scripture in itselfe to tradition now we will come a litle closser and compared it as we haue it to the same doctrine deliuered once 〈…〉 tradition I meane that hitherto we haue spoken as if we had those verie bookes which the canonicall writer made with their owne hande and of what authoritie they would be But now we will considere their since we haue but copies of them of what authoritie these copies ought to be Can you resolue this question Nâ—phew I doubt not sir but for that end which wee seeke that is to make a iudge of controuersies euerie word euerie letter and euerie title must be admitted of absolute and vncontrolable certainâ—ie And so I heare the vulgar edition in latine is commaÌ„ded to be held amongst vs. For I easily see that if anie one sentence may be quarrelled euerie one will incurre the same hazard all being equaly deliuered and equaly warranted with reason and authoritie Vncle. You saie verie well for where there is no lesse theÌ„ the soules of the whole world at the stake I see not what aduantage can giue sufficient securitie if there remaine anie notable vncertaintie Our sauiour saith what can all the world auaile anie man if he loose his soule So that where the question is soule or no soule saluation or damnation nothing lesse then certaintie can serue to proceede vpon And therefore no doubt but if the Apostles had intended to leaue the holy writt for the decider of controuersies in Religion they would also haue prouided that infalible copies should haue beene kept and come downe to the church to the end of the world For such care wee see that priuat men haue of conseruing their bargaines and couuenants by making their Indentures vncounterfeitable and enrolling them in publicke offices were they are to remaine vncorrupted the like care hath common wealths to conserue their recordes specially their laws keeping the verie originalls or authenticall copies with verie great care But what neede wee tooke into the examples of â—â—â—en seeing all mightie God in his owne person hath giuen vs a paterne commanding the Deuteronomie to be kept in the Arke which he would haue to be the authenâ—icall copie to iudge betwixt him and his people and this with the greatest veneratioÌ„ that could be imagined or that euer was giuen to anie thing But this was impossible for the Apostles to doe otherwise surely the would haue done it if they had intended that Christs written law should haue beene our iudge by reason of the multitudes of nations and languages which hindered that not anie one booke could be conserued with such securitie and incorruptibilitie as would be requisite in that case both because of the language and of the mutabilitie of the world euer subiect to a thousand accidents whereby such bookes might fall into the hands of those who would not only neglect them but ether willfully corrupt or seeke vtterly to destroy that which was to be the rule and paterne of Christian faith And for that which you saie is commaÌ„ded vs you conceiue amisse For no wise man thinketh that the vulgar edition is so well corrected that much may not be mended How the vulgar edition is to be receiued but t' is that the church hath secured vs that there is nothing against Christian faith or behauiour contained in those bookes which haue so long passed for scripture and are so in deede for the substance of the bookes and therefore hath commanded vs not to refuse this râ—â—â— in anie controuersie on disputation And this wee and wee only caÌ„ doe for the churche's securitie â—â—seth out of this that she hath an other more forcible ground of hir faith to witt tradition by which being assured what the truth is she can confidently pronunce that in
to conuince it by their testimonie take's a hard taske vpon him if he goe rigorously to worke and haue a conning Criticke to his Aduersarie How so euer t' is not a thing fitting for ordinarie and vnlearned people but only for such as haue time at will and great reading and vnderstanding Nephew You haue manie Aduersaries in this opinion for generally men seeke tradition out of the fathers and thinke they haue found it when in euerie age they finde seuerall fathers of the same opinion Vncle. I intende not to detract from their labours who haue taken paines in this kinde for they are profitable and necessarie for the church of God and excellent testimonies of Tradition but I nether thinke it to be the bodie of Tradition but only an effect and consequent of it nor that the multitude of Christians whose faith is to be regulated by Tradition neede to haue recourse to those learned workes Wherefore although diuers fathers in the same or different ages be found to contradict some point whereof the present church is in quiet and immemorable possession their authorities ought not to preuaile nor are they sufficiēt to proue there was not euen in their days a contrarie Tradion For our faith being in some sort naturally grafted in the harts of Christians learned men may now and then mistake some points of it as well as the causes and effects of their owne nature it self according as I tould you but now And as in other points so euen in this to wit in the resolution of faith wherein as our Doctors seeme to differ now a days so might the fathers also And in particular S. Cypriā seeme's to thinke that the resolution of faith was to be made into scripture and not into Tradition though in deede he opposed not scripture to Tradition but to custome wich is a farr different thing the one relying vpon the doctrine of the Apostles the other vpon the authoritie of priuat Doctors And supposing he was mistaken it were no more thē what wee now see to consiste with the vnitie of the Church There is one obiection and but only one of moment and t' is that S. Augustin and Innocentius with their Councells held that the communion of Children Was necessarie for their saluatiō and their words seeme to be apparent But who looketh into other passages of the same Authors will finde that their words are metaphoricall and that their meaning is that the effect of sacramentall Communion to witt an incorporation into Christ's misticall bodie which is done by Baptisme is of necessitie for Children's saluation I remember not at this present anie other obiection of monent which may not be easily solued out of these principles Nephew I will suggest you one or two if you please The one of Communion vnder both kindes wherein our Aduersaries saie we leaue a knowne and practised tradition for manie ages The other concerning the bookes of scripture where they saie we accept of a new scripture or rule of faith without tradition Vncle. I did thinke cosen you could answere these your selfe For the first there is two parts of it The one that the B. Sacrament was giuen vnder both kindes ordinarily the other that some times it was giuen in one kynd only And Catholikes being in possessiō of both parts by tradition those that will proue that Catholikes goe against Tradition must proue that it was neuer administred vnder one kinde only which our Aduersaries nether goe about nor cā performe but ply only that part which is granted them to witt that ordinarily it was administred vnder both kindes For the second t' is not sufficient to shew that some haue doubted of this or that part of the Canon vnlesse they can proue that those who did not doubt were not a sufficient partie to make a Tradition frō the Apostles time And so you see it fall's into the question we mentioned before that some fathers or Doctors being of a contrarie minde breake not the force of tradition Nephew I am loath to leaue you vncle because me thinke's I am not sufficiently armed to answere all obiections And yet what soeuer I call to minde falle's into some of these conditions you require Vncle. Let me see how skillfull you are I will try how you can answere me to §. 14 The examples of Tradition which seeme to haue failed FIrst therefore betwixt Adā's being cast out of Paradise and the Deluge there are accoūted about two thousand yeares which according to the long liues men enioyed at that time made not fully three descēts and yet in Noy's time the forgetting of God's law was so great that a generall floud was necessarie for the clēsing of the world Sem was Noy's sonne and before his death both the Diuisions of Nations happened because of their pride against God And as most Historians thinke the selecting of Abram's familie into God's seruice the rest of the world hauing abādoned it Likewise what is become of all antien Religions the most part of them deliuered by Tradition they are all gone and rooted out So that plaine experience is against those fine discourses you approued so higly What answere would you make to this Nephew Marry I would deny it to be true I meane I would saie that God's law was not forgotten but neglected before the floud And the like at the building of Babell And for Abraham's time we know that Abimelech and Pharao and Melchisedech and others as Iob when soeuer he liued obserued God's law As for heathen Religions they were written in bookes for anie thing I know and therefore preiudice tradition no more then a written law and consequently belong not to this cōtrouersie And thus I thinke I should quitte my self wel enough Vncle. Soone enough at least but let vs see if it be with as good speede as much haste For suppose they should reply that the neglect of God's law must of necessitie breede obliuion and therefore that ether God's law was forgottē or shortly would haue beene if the punishement of the Deluge had not preuēted it And for the men you cite of Abraham's time they were but few and though in that time God's law had yet some litle force looke but into Mose's time and you shall see all ouerrūne with Idolatrie For Heathen Religions t' is said of the Druides that their Ceremonies were not written but deliuered by memorie in verse from the Elder to the yonger and so conserued And the Histories of the welch ād Irish seeme to haue beene conserued in the like manner by the Bardes which how full of fables they were euerie man knowe's So that these things seeme sufficient to discredit Tradition Nephew I must intreat your helping hand to fasten me vpō this shaking flore otherwise I perceiue I am to weake to stand of my self Vncle. T' is not the flore you stand vpon but the want of confidence which make's you so vnsteadfast For tell me I pray if you remember whereon rely's
follow that such questioÌ„s as are betwixt Catholikes and Protestants concerning those pointes may appeare to be of imporâ—ce and so fundamentall as that Christian Religion cannot haue it's subsistaÌ„ce and progresse without the knowlege of the truth in such questions and positions And certes if credit and authoritie be the only or at least the maine instrument and principall meanes whereby the preachers of Christianitie can presse and promote Christian doctrine And that this credit and authoritie is incomparably more raised and strengthened by the Catholike position then by the Protestant's negatiue it must needes follow that the efficacitie of Christian Preachers and the strength of their cause is without comparison greather amongst Catholikes ten amongst Protestants which doubtlesse cannot but moue anie reasonable man who thinke's and belieue's that our eternall good relye's and depeÌ„de's vpon Christian doctrine I know there be other necessities of the Sacraments As for the vnitie of the church which being dispersed though the whole world could not be otherwise conserued then by the practize of some externall actions common to them all whereby they might know one the other As alsoe for the augmentation of charitie and grace by the frequentation of them But these pointes haue their proper treatises and places belonging vnto them It suffiseth I haue shewd you that there ought to be men appointed whose care function and imployment is to teach and conserue in the people the truth of Christian doctrine and that for this effect those men must needes haue some qualities aboue the ordinarie sort of men to authorise and giue credit to their documents For although this doctrine of it's owne nature tende to the highest degree of perfection and consequeÌ„tly deserue's of it self to be infinitely esteemed and honnored yet being supernaturall that is farre aboue the innate capacitie and reach of man the preachers and teachers thereof must of necessitie be endowed with extraordinarie power and authoritie to giue credit therevnto Which supposed we may procede farthe to the third degree and condition of remouing impediments hindering the prosecution of our eternall good and first enquire whether §. 6 The resolutions of Generall Councells be sufficient to decide controuersies of faith both in pointes of necâ—ssitie and of indifferencie TEll me then cozen is it thinke you lawfull for a priuate man to whose care the church is not committed to doubt in himselfe and breede doubtes in others touching such pointes as these pastors of Christ's flocke who by their function and profession haue the churche's gouermeÌ„t committed vnto them are agreed vpon and teach with common coÌ„sent to the whole church Nephew First I see vncle that such a man shall not easily induce men to belieue him against so great an opposition's and that therefore he had neede of better groundes in such pointes then in others Secondly I see that no wise man will oppose the opinion of so manie authorized experts or held for experts and that in a matter of their profession without farre greater and more pregnant reasons in this particular busines then would be necessarie in an other wherein he had noâ— such maine prudentiall motiues against him But whether there be anie obligation in conscience or whether this be a matter of such importance as to make a fundamentall pointe of Religion of it that I know not For contrariewise me thinke's there should be also an obligation in conscience when a man finde's that these gouernors are mistaken that he should oppose them to the vtmost of his power Vncle. You doe not fully conceiue my question which is this whether because these men haue the charge and care to reach God's law in the church setting a side all other difficulties there be an obligation in reason vpon this precise grounds noâ— easily to oppose their determinatioÌ„ without being certaine and secure of verie good footing nor to attempt anie thing against their verdict with out euideÌ„ce Because saie I to what pourpose is their iudgment if it be as free to oppose them after as before Nephew As for obligation I tould you vncle I know not of anie but this I see common sense and naturall reason teacheth vs that such as haue the charge aÌ„d care of instructing others are supposed to haue more vnderstanding in the doctrine which they teach theÌ„ those who learne of them And therefore if anie disputs or controuersies arrise in such matters I see 't is â—â—ter these teachers should be the iudges thereof then those who learne And in a matter of 〈◊〉 to appeale from them when a great and vniuersall part of the wisest haue giuen their coÌ„senting iugdmeÌ„t to the 〈◊〉 is as absurde as to appeale froÌ„ Maisters to schollers or from men of one profession to men of an other Vncle. Why this is all I aske for where one part is absurde in reason the other must needes be certaine by the same reason And what is absurde in practise t' is certaine that ought to be auoided Wherefore if I mistake not your discourse conclude's that wheresoeuer the question is of â—kill there no man ought to appeale from them who haue charge and care to teach to those who learne in matter of that art And therefore if those who haue the charge and care to teach Christian doctrine doe constantly and generally agree in anie pointe after they haue heard and coÌ„sidered the oppositions made against them nether ought anie man appeale vnto the laietie nor can the laietie wiâ—hout presumptioÌ„ and rashnesse accepte of his appeale nor make them selues iudges in a busines of other men's profession wherein them selues are ignorant or at the most schollers Now therefore sithence in our case there is no meanes for anie man to preuaile against the Clergie whom we suppose agreed amongst theÌ„ selues in anie pointe or position but by making the laietie iudges thereof t' is euideÌ„t that it wil be still against reason for anie man to attempt the innouating of anie new pointe or position against the Clergie's common verdict and generall consent And consequently an obligation of reason and conscieÌ„ce not to doe it Hence it follow 's that there is a power and authoritie in the Clergie of determining and deciding questions of Christian doctrine whereof they are the teachers and a necessitie in the laietie who are their schollers of obeying and quieting them selues For the nature of sedition and factioÌ„ is nothing else What is sedition but to remoue the question from them who truly haue or by their places are supposed to haue skill to them who haue or may be presumed to haue none that is from the Gouernors to the subiects from the skillfull to the ignorant and from natiues to Aliens Secondly it follow 's Nothing but euideÌ„ce is a laW full WarraÌ„t to opoose iudgment that there can be but two cases only in which one may oppose these determieations and decisions For t' is manifest that nothing but euideÌ„ce of the truth can iustifie anie
to be suspected as not true to anie authoritie though he professe to acknowledge it Vncle. Softly cozen softly there 's nothing more frequteÌ„ amongst men then through passion and ouersight to forsake their owne principles and contradict in one matter what them selues confesse in an other And therefore although it be true by coÌ„sequeÌ„ce of reason that who soeuer doth rise against the church in this kinde may vpoÌ„ the same grounde and principle be false to anie other authoritie or gouerment yet vpon other reasons or by not seeing the consequence of his fact he may likewise be true and faithfull And therefore it were rashnesse to condemne for this reason alone those truths which such an one may perhapps mantaine in other matters Howsoeuer is not our coÌ„clusion manifest that there is no place for Ifs and And 's in our case where there can be no euidence brought against a pointe of doctrine which the highest Tribunall and Iudgment vpon earth hath alreadie decreed But suppose some one or few of these innouators had Euidence on their side yet the vulgar people whom they putt on to mutinie cannot haue it no nor anie certaintie that these their ring leaders haue Euidence being not able to compare vnderstandingly the worth of diuers men in a busines which surpasseth their capacitie And therefore this common people in such a case must neede 's proceede and doe whatsoeuer they doe vpon passioÌ„ surprise or interest And consequently those innouators who moued caried and pressed them therevnto cannot be excused from being culpable of temeritie obstinacie and Archi-Rebellion Yet as a Prince doth some times coÌ„descende to his Rebellious subiects that he may gaine time and so bring them to reason as Roboam's wiser Councell thought fitt to giue eare to the cryes of the communities for once that they might serue him euer after So I doubt not but the church both may and will relent some times a litle to establish hir Gouerment and good order more strongly an other time Nor is she to be reprehended if contrariewise she be rigorous vpoÌ„ occasions to witt when she see 's that relenting weaken's hir authoritie and doth rather increase then assuage the mutinie But what is now and then conuenient to be done that belong's to them who are in place to iudge And for vs to obey and sâ—ill suppose they doe the best Nephew Hitherto vncle me thinke's I am well satisfied but there 's a maine difficultie about the diuersitie of the rule of faith I pray tell mee doe you not thinke §. 7 That the maintenance of the vnitie of the church is of extreme great necessitie FOr we professe you know that tradition or the receite of our doctrine from father to sonne is our cheefe authoritie and our prime motiue of faith All others will acknowledge no other rule then their owne interpretatioÌ„ of the scripture This in my minde is the most important question of all the controuersies in Religion and vpon the resolution of this pointe doth rely and depende all other disputs and difficulties of christian faith nay eueÌ„ our being truly and properly Christians or faithfull For if Christ was a lawmaker not euerie one who professeth his name but who obserueth his law is truly a Christian What it is to be a Christian And if Christ haue sett downe a certaine rule or manner and certaine Magistrats by whom we are to know this law whosoeuer doth not follow that rule and acknowledge those Magistrates cannot be said to obserue his law and consequeÌ„tly professe Christ's name wrongfully Vncle. Doe you thinke cozen that who doth not obserue Christ's law is no Christian what then shall become of sinners shall none of them be ChristiaÌ„s nor of the church of Christ you will make a church of only Elects or Predestinates as the Puritants doe Nephew It may be I goe to farr yet certainely who doth not keepe Christ's law or professe to keepe it is no Christian But then me thinke's I goe to farr on the other side for all those that professe Christ's name doe likewise professe to keepe his law how litle soeuer they doe Vncle. Why then cozen I will helpe you out and open the state of the question vnto you First you must know that this word Ecclesia in it's primitiue sense signifieth a meeting or coÌ„gregatioÌ„ of meÌ„ called out of a greater multitude What is a church as a Councell or Senate is And becaus the first ChristiaÌ„s were called in that manner by Christ and his Apostles Ioh. 15. Ego vos elegi de mundo therefore we properly and deseruedly call the multitude of ChristiaÌ„s a Church Now a multitude called to gether is not only and simply a multitude which may importe confusion but a multitude gathered together and vnited wherein consist's the vnitie of the church If you aske wherein this multitude we speake of is vnited t' is knowne that t' is to doe the will of the caller who being Iesus that is sauiour or Director to saluation their calling must be to walke the paths of saluatioÌ„ And sithence we haue no other Maister of our saluation but Iesus Christ t' is euident that the vnitie of his church must consiste in the obseruance of his law Secondly you are to note that there are two sortes of vnities the one of similitude the other of connection We saie all men are of one nature that 's an vnitie of similitude we saie likewise all the parts of a man though dislike in themselues make one man there 's an vnitie of connectioÌ„ Now if the church of Christ had beene to continue only for his owne or his Apostle's time the former vnitie would haue serued Nay euen now if all the Christians who liue at this day doe and performe the same things practize the same faith and good life and vse the same Sacraments This vnitie of similitude would suffice to make the church of Christ one for the present but could not make it subsiste and continue there being no connection amongst the parts and members of this multitude to make them sticke together Wherefore Christ hauing planted a multitude of faithfull which he intended should subsiste and continue for manie ages no doubt but he hath giuen them such an vnitie as is necessarie for coÌ„tinuance Thirdly therefore you must note that there are two sortes of multitudes in this world which subsiste and continue the one naturall as the parts of a liuing creature the other morall as the members of communities or commonwealths and both haue their proportionall vnities For the first we see that in plantes all the members haue a due connection to the roote from which being cutt of the part dyeth for want of continuitie In other liuing creatures we likewise finde at hart or some thing else that supplie's it's function by connectioÌ„ wherevnto euerie part receiueth life and subsistence and whose passage or communication with that hart being stopped and cutt off the part by litle and
decision of controuersies it is not to bee expected that it should bee of it selfe without the churche's authoritie much profitable for that pourpose but to informe our liues by an ordinarie reading of it or by preaching singing and such like vses things recommended in the verie letter it self whereas wee are neuer seÌ„t to the word for the deciding of controuersies And now I hope you are fully satisfied Nephew I am so in deede and giue you manie thankes for I see that how few pointes soeuer the Protestants pretende to be necessarie yet caÌ„ there not anie thing be conuinced out of bare words inuoluing soe manie vncertainties as you haue tould me of Vncle. It is to litle pourpose for them to saie that some few substaÌ„tiall and necessarie pointes may bee proued out of scripture it were fitter they would first proue that the scripture is an instrument made to determine controuersies or anie other of those principles which I shewd you must of necessitie be true if scripture bee our rule But this they can neuer proue And therefore they seeke first to withdraw vs from a secure and naturall meanes of relying vpon our forefathers Which neuerthelesse in all ciuill and oeconomicall conuersation they them selues can not liue without and then to leaue vs to a labyrinth of voluntary and vnendable disputations Reflect then I pray cozen vpon what wee haue said and compare our yesternight's and this our morning's discourse together considering first how manie things are of necessitie to bee conserued in the church for the preseruation of faith and good life in hir subiects Then see how manie pointes haue beene and are quarelled and if anie haue escaped how all the rest may be caled in question with as much probabilitie and apparence as these are Then looke vpon the qualities of that Decider of controuersies where vnto all the Aduersaries of the Catholike church doe seeke to draw vs by which there can be no other end of controuersies but to leaue euerie man to his owne will And then conclude that these positions being put there will nether remaine gouerment in the church nor certaintie or constancie in beliefe nor anie thing to be taught and practized worthie God Allmightie's sending of a lawgiuer muchlesse of sending his owne sonne vpon those hard conditioÌ„s which wee appreheÌ„de of Iesus Christ and reade in the Ghospell Nephew It is verie true but if your leaue mee thus I shall bee like him who had fargot his Pater noster but not learned his Our father For you haue taught mee what I cannot rely vpon but not what I ought to rely vpon And there is so much said against the authoritie of the church by all hir Aduersaries that a man who hath beene euer beaten to those obiections cannot easily leaue them without some scrupule Vncle. You are in the right the most necessarie part is yet behinde for a litle building is better then a great deale of pulling downe Therefore when your leisure serueth you I will bee readie to giue you satisfaction to the best of my power But now this morning is too farr spent to beginne so large a discourse as that question doth require Take an other time and the sooner the more welcome But for the present God be with you I haue some prayers to save THE THIRD DIALOGVE By what meanes Controuersies in Religion may be ended This Dialogue containeth 15. parts or paragraphes 1. THe Preface or Introduction 2. What force the arguments of Protestants against Catholikes ought to haue 3. That standing in likelyhood the Catholike partie is greater more learned and more vertuous 4. Of what efficacitie is this argumeÌ„t 5. That it is no hard matter that Christ's law should haue desceÌ„ded entire vnto vs. 6. That if Christ's law could haue beene conserued it hath beene conserued 7. That no great errour could creepe in to the church of God 8. That the truth of the Catholike doctrine hath continued in the church 9. That the dissention of Catholike Doctours coÌ„cerning the rule of faith doth not hurt the certaintie of tradition 10. That the teaching of Christian doctrine without determining what of necessitie is to be belieued and what not hurte's not the progresse of tradition 11. That no errour can passe vniuersally through the church of God 12. That these precedente discourses beare an absolute certaintie 13. Some obiections are solued 14. The Examples of traditions which seeme to haue failed are examined 15. The conclusion of the whole discourse §. 1 The Introduction NEPHEW I am come vncle to challenge you of your promise for I cannot be quiet vntill you haue setled me in this so weightie a matter If the pointes which are in coÌ„trouersie be as you saie and as you haue clearly shewd me of great consequence and that by scripture we cannot decide them against contentious meÌ„ I see that ether wee must seeke some other meanes or els all Religion wil bee confounded and the truth of Christ's law vnknowne and neglected Wherefore I pray if you can giue mee a strong resolution in this point Vncle. Why nephew if this feruour continue you will not neede be a scholler but for a yeare aÌ„d a day I pray you coÌ„sidere it is a faire daie and you neuer want imployment for the afternoones when the wether 's faire if I should staie you now you would perhapps so repent it that I should not I feare see you againe this month be not so greedie as to take a surfeite Nephew I feare my owne inconstancie and therefore I pray refuse me not discontinuance may breede coaldnesse specially if what you haue alreadie taught me should bee sullyed with worse thoughts and then I should not be so capable of your instructions as I hope I am at this present Which I haue good reason to make great esteeme of Vncle. Well if you will haue it so you must giue me leaue to trench vpon a good part of your Afternoone for I may bee long in this point and I would be loath to breake of in the midle Yet I will bee as short as possibly I can Tell me then had Iesus Christ euer a church or no And I would haue you answere me what you thinke a iudicious Protestant would saie to the same demande Nephew I doubt not but anie Protestant of them all would answere you that at least in the Apostles time Christ had a visible church coÌ„sisting of the faithfull which adhered to the Apostles and such Bishopps as were made by them but that since that time it is fallen into great errours and ether mainely Apostated from the true doctrine of Christ or at least â—o deformed it that a reformation was necessarie euen in pointes of beliefe And this reforme their forefathers vndertooke Vncle. You are likewise persuaded I suppose cozen by the same euidence that in the Apostles time this church was a communion with the particular church of Rome and therefore I will goe a litle further and aske you
most easie and most naturall conceite that man can haue to conceiue that some thing is the cause of these goods and hurtes Now man's conuersation being cheefely with one an other men naturally apprehende all things to be donne by some vnderstanding thing as they see their owne actions are So that if there were a cōpagnie of men sprung out of the earth like Cadmus his people or raised out of emitts like the Myrmidons yet would they if they were truly men within a litle while frame them selues some Religion according as by chance or some one's apprehēsion or phāsie they should conceite their goods and euills to proceede from some visible or inuisible thing Wherefore I admire not that some people adored the sunne some the starrs others some rare men from whom they had receiued in their life time great benefits imagining that euen after death they were power full and beneficiall And surely it is much more impossible that a people which once hath had some Religion should quitte forget it and come to haue none at all for these causes will be euer knocking at their harts putting them in minde and driuing them into the cōceite of some God or Gouernor if therefore the effects of perpetuall causes must be euerlasting these causes of Religion to wit effects whose causes are hidden and the good and euill which come vnto vs by them being neuer awanting t' is impossible that Religion should euer cease Vncle. And thinke you not cosen that these same causes doe as well moue those who are setled in a faith or Religion to continue without changing their once receiued beliefe as well I saie as they doe keepe them from forgetting that Religion which they are once possessed of Nephew I confesse it seeme's euident to me that the change of Religion can not come by pure negligence and sleepinesse no more then the losse of it being these warnings of nature which force vs to Religion doe also continually call vpon vs to keepe our once practized faith and credulitie vnlesse there be greater causes to countermande it which I doe not see but may be easily found some times Vncle. Peraduenture not so easily as you imagine for an Errour is a persuasion of the minde And nothing can worke vpon our vnderstanding but it self and our will who soeuer therefore will make such a persuasiō must worke vpon one of these two The will you know is moued and weilded by hopes and feares the vnderstanding by reason and authoritie How error in bred in man Whence arise three waies by which such an opinion may creepe into mē's mindes 1. by bringing more reason for it thē cā be brougth on the contrarie side 2. by the authoritie of some so great as that their verdicts are held beyond examining and 3. by the power of some whose hands are full of paines and pleasures and who can thereby moue the will which being moued can make the vnderstanding belieue what she desire's Doe you know anie other meanes Nephew Not I vncle for I see that if I should bring anie other you would reduce it to some of these three But me thinke's such an opiniō might steale vpon the church at vnawares some obscure man broaching it at the first and others accepting of it by a kinde of negligēce and indifferencie to anie opinion or by too much credulitie not distinguishing right from wrōg though I see this touche's some what vpon authoritie and so will be reduced to that mēber of your diuision Vncle. It importe's not to what member it be reduced so there be no fourth waie But I though you had learned sufficiently alreadie to exclude this for what make's more notice to be taken of anie thing then that which changeth some publicke and vniuersall practize Looke but if anie one goe through the streete's in some strang and new fashioned apparell how all staire and gaze vpon him the verie boys leaue their playe to follow him and looke at him And therefore to saie such an Innouation can be brought in without being taken notice of is as much as to saie the cause of admiration or taking notice can be set before our eyes without working it's effect Which is to saie that fire and tow should lye together without burning or a stone hang at libertie in the aire without falling downe these be impossibilities in nature and are in the racke of those things against which nature folliciteth by hi◠continuall causes of hopes and feares which made you confesse but now that negligence was not a sufficient cause to produce the change of Religion Wherefore let vs see if by anie of these three waies which I haue proposed the change of Religion can happen Nephew Nay sir I will doe you the fauour to exclude one of them to wit the waie of persuasion or by alledging more reason against the true Religion then can be brought for it for seing truths beare witnesse to one another and that the Religion we speake of is supposed to be true t' is impossible that more reason should be brought against it then for it Nor is the greatnesse of anie man's wit who should stand to maintaine the error to be feared for this error being to passe through a great part of the world t' is not credible that one man should so farr surpasse in wit the rest of the world as to put them all from their stāding without contradictiō Or that in so much time as is necessarie for the spreading of such an error into the maine of the church no man should haue wit enough if not to bring more potent argumēts for the truth atleast to finde out the weakenesse and fallacie of those which are brought against it which would be sufficient to hinder the progresse of such an error for who is in possession of an opinion must haue an insoluable reasō to put him out of it if he be wise and constant Much more those who ground their tenets vpon receiuing them from their forefathers and hould all reason insufficiēt to proue their faith because of it's supernaturalitie and therefore ought more to harken to what was deliuered thē to anie reason which may seeme to vrge the change of what is knowne to be deliuered Thus much I confesse is cleere but why the authoritie of some one or more whose words are aboue examine or the power of some who hould's the balance of good and badd of paines and pleasures may not worke an error into the church that I doe not vnderstand Vncle. You haue drawne the question from an vniuersall to a particular for we spoke of a change betwixt two Religions in common and you speake of a change from a true one to a false one Yet this being sufficient for our intent I will add that if you had that conceite of the true Religion which much thought hath bredd in me to wit that t' is the most high wise rationnall conformable to man's nature to gouerment to all
things fitting for man's life that can be imagined of all disciplines and learnings possible that it leadeth into greater secrets of nature theÌ„ otherwise wee should euer reach vnto 〈◊〉 and exceedeth all the knowledge which made antient and moderne sages so proud If you had I saie this conceite of the true Religion you would be much more confirmed and strengthened in this persuasion But why doe you not thinke it impossible that the authoritie of one man should ouerswaye all the witts of the world Surely the Diuill him selfe would rather helpe the church then permitte so litle pride amongst meÌ„ Neuer yet anie great man wanted his Antagonist who had he such a flawe in is credit as this our subiect would giue him it would quiekly hinder the extent of his authoritie Not anie of our neuer so much esteemed fathers is receiued in all things nor is anie of their authoritie's receiued in such an eminent height as is necessarie for the effect we speake of Who was greater then Origen And yet was he condemned euen wheÌ„ he was in greatest vogue But I neede not appeale to examples where nature by it's owne force strike's the stroke For ether this new doctrine is brought in openly by the strong and earnest endeauours of the author him self whose authoritie must swaye the world and of his followers And then by this verie negotiation it will discouer it's newnesse and being false the more it is haÌ„dled the more it will shew it's weaknesse and at length goe out like a snuffe of it self Or els it come's in neglectedly being written by the bye and the Innouator's authoritie vrged by others vpon occasion and then the verie manner beare's with it so litle likelyhood and smale efficacitie as that it would be euerie where chechked by reason of it's newnesse and therefore could neuer passe vncontrowled through anie great extent And if we put the case as before to be in the Catholike church where the truth is not to be handled by learned reasons as being aboue nature but by what our forefathers haue taught vs you see this great man's authoritie presently vanisheth into smoake being there 's no place for anie man's authoritie where the constant and vniuersall verdict of the present world is against it in respect whereof he is but a single man Concerning force or power you must suppose before you can make anie apparent argument of it 1. that this power is ouer the whole Christian world 2. to be so strong that it feareth not to giue distaste to the people 3. to be vehemently desirous to quell the ould faith and bring in a new one 4. that it hath zealous ministers for the same end And lastly that all these dure and continue vntill all the antient faith be extinct And when all is done yet will it remaine vpon record and be knowne when this new opinion began and the violence being ended there 's a roote in men's harts to reiect this new opinion and returne to the old supposing as we doe there 's more reason for the old then for the new So that in common sense and nature's principles the Pope had iust cause to write to the Emperor in these termes Niteris incassum nauem subâ—â—ergere Petri Fluctuat at namquam mergitur illaratis But to conclude this point tell me cosen what time thinke you is necessarie for the introducing of an error by litle and litle before it will passe for a thing deliuered by haÌ„d to haÌ„d from Christ For such an opinion we call a Tradition Nephew I see it must gaine this reputation you speake of by making it quitte forgotten that the other opinioÌ„ was euer ether generally held or practized For as loÌ„g as t' is knowne that the other opinion was antienter they striue in vaine 〈…〉 this was deliuered by 〈…〉 sâ—â—â— and so defecâ—â—â—d 〈…〉 to hand Wherefore 〈…〉 it can be 〈…〉 â—â—â—trarie was in vogâ—◠〈…〉 â—east aÌ„d some what more 〈◊〉 needes be the 〈…〉 broching and 〈…〉 if I remember we 〈…〉 for 4. or 600. yeares the generally practized 〈◊〉 of 〈…〉 church 〈…〉 certaine 〈…〉 aâ— I see that at 〈…〉 â—e iâ— necessarie and as much more as is 〈…〉 by 〈…〉 yet wil there still remaine writings of that time in which such a point was in dispute which will to sâ—â—â—â—e atleast in 〈◊〉 of the preuailing side 〈◊〉 such a controuersie 〈◊〉 hath 〈◊〉 and that the fallen side was antienter and consequeÌ„tly 〈◊〉 will sâ—â—ll be euidence 〈◊〉 there was an other faith 〈◊〉 doctrine deliuered by the Apostles before this came vp which in deede ought to be 〈◊〉 Vncle. Then cosen let vs put 200. yeares to be sufficieÌ„t for such an extinction which 〈◊〉 great a circuit and for a 〈◊〉 rooted in men's harts aâ—d practized in their actions is but a smale time and ioyne thâ—â— the 4. or 600 we speake of And considere whether anie violent mutation caÌ„ coÌ„tinue against nature for 6 or 800. yeares be it ether of Tyranie authoritie or what other occasion soeuer and this to oppresse the true faith grounded in nature Might we not as well saie there would be perpetuall faire wether for manie yeares together through a great part of the world â— as that there should be such a perpetuall disposition against reason and our naturall inclination to the vtter ruine and ouerthrow of our euerie where receiued faith Nephew You haue reason vncle For although when I considere the mutabilitie of mankinde alone and contriue with my self how this might be effected it seeme's plausible to saie that an other opinion might come in and destroy a receiued tenet yet when I deepely weigh what you saie against it and ballaÌ„ce the one with the other I see my frame is limited within a smale compasse and few yeares but reacheth not to the vniuersalitie and generall Dominion or Gouerment of nature For I could make the like argument for not raining blowing shyning and the like that is in deede for the destruction of nature And I doe not thinke you inteÌ„de to make the church stronger then the pillars of nature on which it stande's We ought not therefore to esteeme nature vniuersally defectible because we cannot reach to see fully how euerie particular encumbrance is auoided for t' is not that in ether of these subiects they causes are not certaine and infalible but that my discourse comprehende's them not Vncle. I doe not in deede intende to make the strength of faith greater theÌ„ the streÌ„gth of nature why faith is stronger then nature though perhapps I could supposing which is certaine that nature was created and built for the supernaturall guifts and goods which God bestowe's vpon it they which being greater and better then nature t' is fitting they should haue stronger mantenance and holds then nature it self And therefore t' is likely that nature is strengthened by principles and fundations aboue it's pitch to the end it may be a fit and sure proppe of faith and supernaturall
in iudging white froÌ„ blacke because for sooth some weake eyes are now aÌ„d theÌ„ mistaken or as to saie no bodie can walke because some haue the palsey which were in deede to destroye nature and it's constancie in vniuersalls because of it's defectibilitie in it's particulars which is against common sense and reason Vncle. Well then doe you thinke their immediate forefathers could teach theÌ„ anie thing as of this qualitie but what themselues belieued and had receiued in the same manner Nephew No surely their immediate forefathers could not deliuer anie thing as of this nature to their successors against the doctrine which they had receiued from their predecessours euer standing in this principle that nothing is to be belieued as of necessitie in this degree but what came by hand to hand froÌ„ Christ or his Apostles Vncle. Tell me then I pray whether in the two last pointes that is whether ether we can be deceiued in what was deliuered by our immediate forefathers vnto vs as of this kinde or they deliuer vs anie doctrine as of this qualitie but what them selues receiued in the like sort whether I saie in ether of these two points there be anie differeÌ„ce betwixt anie former age and this our presentage or that what you haue granted of this age the same must not necessarily hold in all other ages euer since Christ Nephew I confesse I see noe difference Vncle. Reflect then vpon what you haue granted and considere whether anie error against a receiued doctrine aÌ„d practize of this nature could so creepe in as that there shoud be no determinate age of it's beginning in which it first tooke roote and flourished Nephew T' is not possible that anie thing should beginne and yet beginne in no time For I conceiue that an age is no smale time aÌ„d giue 's no litle growth to anie thing that beginne's so that to saie anie point of doctrine is a whole age in growing aÌ„d to saie with all it is imperceptible and after a whole age vnsensible is without doubt senslesse Yet if anie should saie that an error had beene begun by a priuate man and taught to some in one age which being neglected grew into practize in some one countrie and froÌ„ theÌ„ce by the like neglect grew likewise to be customarie in the next adioyning and so spredd it self vntill it had possessed the hart of Christendome and this for manie yeares so that now all memorie that euer the contrarie had beene in credit and practize were lost if this I saie one should tell me I doubt whether I should be able to giue him a conuincing answere and demonstratiue satisfaction Vncle. Cosen this question trencheth vpon what we haue alreadie talked of therefore I will only giue you such a hint as your self may worke vpon First it is as manifest an impossibilitie that a change of Religion should be introduced insensibly into anie one Countrie as that a burning feauer should for as long time consume the same whole couÌ„trie without being taken notice of or sought to be preuented sithence as we saide nature permit's vs not generally to be sleepie in Religion Secondly to saie it shall passe imperceptible from country to countrie and so get possession of the whole Christian world is farr more impossible men's natures and dispositioÌ„s being so diuers that if they were put to we are cappes or shoes a like it could not be effected but by some publicke force or commande Thirdly that this should be for so long a terme that the coÌ„trarie practize should be quit forgotteÌ„ to haue beene formerly in vse and request is yet beyoÌ„d both So that who soeuer is troubled with this doubt doth not rightly vnderstand the nature of Christian Religion which is a truth of the qualitie of science hanging all together Wherevnto a truth may be added and yet remaine whole but if anie falsitie or crosse position be admitted it will not only destroy the positioÌ„ immediatly opposite but also what soeuer dependeth of it that is all in deede but cheefely tradition And so we see by experience that none euer moued anie point of faith but if their reuolt dured loÌ„g they proceeded so farr as to take a waie tradition the rule of all we are to belieue But can you tell me haue we reached to the resolution of your demande aÌ„d are you fully satisfied Nephew This you haue concluded that if our church rely vpon traditioÌ„ now it euer did so And if it euer did rely vpon tradition it must needes haue maintained the same doctrine from Christ's time to ours for nether could anie former age deliuer anie thing contrarie to what they had receiued vpon this principle nor we mistake what they deliuered so that nothing contrarie to the first receiued doctrine can be admitted This yet me thinke's waÌ„teth To shew that the present Roman church rely's vpon tradition which I confesse to me is euident at least that what soeuer we haue receiued froÌ„ our forefathers as comming by-hand to hand from Christ that we reuerence and receiue all such pointes as being necessarie to be belieued Only I haue one scruple wherein I must craue your helpe And it is Whether this rule of traditioÌ„ which you giue to be so constantly held to be the rule of faith whether I saie it be so admitted of by all Catholikes or no for I feare the varietie of contrarie opinions which I heare are amoÌ„gst our learned men will preiudice your argumeÌ„s Wherefore I could wish you woud shew me §. 9 That the dissention of Catholike Doctor concerning the rule of faith doth not hurt the certaintie of Tradition FOr I am tould how true I know not that some of our Deuines mantaine that in the person of the Pope reside's the rule of faith by a singular guift and priuiledge bestowed vpon S. Peeter and his successors And this so rigorously that no Generall Councell no not although the Pope's Legats be present and confirme it is of force to oblige â—â— of faiht vntill the personall confirmation of his Holinesse be obtained Others they saie esteeme the Councell aboue the Pope and so doe not hold the Pope's approbation of a Councell to be necessarie but that this rule of faith reside's in the Councell Others I heare to make all safe ioyne both in one and nether admit the Councell without the Pope not the Pope without the Councell to breede anie obligation of faith And farther I heare that amongst these Deuines of what opinion soeuer they be touching the subiect in which this rule or highest authoritie doth reside there be some which thinke that not anie new doctrine or position can be broached or proposed as certaine and as an article of faith by what authoritie soeuer vnlesse that doctrine was esteemed certaine before and euer belieued as such Yet I am tould there be manie who mantaine and â—ouch that this highest authoritie of the church wheresoeuer it be may and can define points of doctrine not
certainely knowne hitherto nor euer expressy belieued before Which how they may be reconciled amongst them selues or stand with this that tradition is our rule of faith I confesse I know not Vncle. Truly cozen your obiection is strong yet I hope to content you For the first part of it I see no great matter in the varietie of opinions amongst our Deuines for you see they seeke out the Decider of pointes of doctrine that is by whose mouth we are to know vpon occasions of dispute what and which be our pointes and articles of faith to wit whether the Pope or the Councell or both Which is not much materiall to our pourpose what euer the truth be supposing we acknowledge no articles of faith but such as haue descended vnto vs by tradition from Christ and his Apostles The second part of your obiection seeme's to be of greater force because some Deuines seeme to acknowledge an authoritie in the church which hath power not only to determine ether speculatiue or practicall points of doctrine new or ould in such manner as that the whole church is obliged to accepte or not oppose it's definition which euerie Catholike grante's and the reasons I tould you in our first conference doe euidently conuince But also that this authoritie can so determine euen a speculatiue pointe of doctrine which hitherto was euer vncertaine nor euer acknowledge as reueiled or esteemed as an article of faith that here after the vhole church shal be obliged to receiue acknowledge and belieue it as a reuealed and necessarie point of Christian doctrine and as an article of faith Which opinion you must knowe is but an opinion nor doe the authours of it oblige anie man to belieue it as certaine nor doe they condemne those who nether doe nor euer will acknowledge anie such positiō ād therefore this ought not to trouble you Nay contrariwise all Deuines will generally tell you that no new articles of faith can be made that there 's now no reuelations for new points of doctrine and that Christ Iesus was our only law maker in this kinde hauing suggested to his Apostles all that is necessarie of this nature and qualitie and the Apostles likewise taught their churches all that was necessarie to be knowne of this degree Wherefore you see all agree vpon tradition nor anie one ether denie it or doubt of it Whereas it appeare's by the diuersitie of their opinions that they doe not vniuersally and generally agree in anie other meanes or rule of faith though some admitte of another in waie of opinion Yet to giue you farther satisfaction in this busines I will teach you a point of philosophie which perhapps you neuer fully vnderstood I am sure you will not denie but t' is a differēt questiō to aske how an herbe or tree growe's and to aske how Aristole or Theophrastus saies it growe's for in the same growing there can be no varietie but in their opiniōs there may So in man t' is a differēt thing what he doth or is done in him and what he thinkes he doth or is done in him as in sicknesse disgestion and other naturall workes t' is euident yea and in voluntary actions too Which depende of corporall instruments as to goe runne turne our eyes speake cough spit or the like which we doe freely and voluntarily yet were we examined by what instruments and motiōs we doe thē peraduēture who seeme's to know most would be found short at least amongst manie there would be diuers opinions But doe you thinke the same happen's in our thoughts and iudgmēts which be purely spirituall Nephew I cannot tell yet me thinke's the soule should be so wel acquainted with hir owne actiōs as that she should not neede anie helpe to know them And all men agree that only man vpon earth can see his owne minde and therefore if it be not cleere to man what himself thinke's nothing is cleere Vncle. You are deceiued cosen for as long as we are in this world we cannot know anie thing of our owne thoughts and affections but as we reflect vpon the corporall motions which accompanie them and which because none feele but our selues none can knowe bur our selues though sometimes it happene's quite contrarie when these motiōs breake forth into outward apparence for thē others discrye our mindes and we our selues through the violēce of passiō are not so wel able ro iudge of them as others who see vs. But to speake of men free from passion and who vse to reflect much vpon their owne thoughts euen in them their internall actions proceede frō a principle directed by a superior guide then their owne reason as appeare's by this that they know nothing of their owne thoughts but by reflection and the reflection is a distinct act from the former vpon which the reflectiō is made so that nether the reflectiō it self is alwaise made by voluntarie designe nor anie act which is made without reflection Besides considere I pray how few know by what verue their vnderstandings are made certaine of those principles and positiōs which they cannot doubt of or by what vertue they adhere so strongly to the conclusion of a sylogisme not one of a thousand who doe these things euerie day Wherefore t' is euidēt that euen in our spirituall actions not all that we doe is done by our proper vnderstāding that is with knowing reflection and designe and therefore the same man may euē in these intellectuall acts doe one thing and thinke he doth an other and diuers men may agree in what they doe and yet disagree in their opinions of what it is they doe And now to close with your difficultie seeing faith is a persuasion or an agreeing in some points by reason af authoritie All the Doctors of the Catholike church may agree in beleeuing that is in acting and practizing their faith in the same manner and yet be deuided in their speculations by which they seeke to determine what it is they doe And it is their doeings which make's them Christians and not their sayings for they liue and beleeue as Christians but speake and deliuer their opinions as Doctors which be qualities farr different from being a Christian And doe you not see that these Doctors belieue after their speculations and framing of their opinions as they did before they thought of or studied this difficultie Nephew I doe not doubt but they doe for the faith of all Christians must needes be the same and consequently all must goe vpon the same motiue though one may vnderstand better and apprehende deeper that motiue then an other doth Vncle. You saie well Considere then that when these Doctors were yong men and had not yet studied Diuinitie and you shall finde that they had no other motiue of their belife but the authoritie of the present church and therefore how soeuer they discourse learnedly in their bookes the conclusion must be in their liues to rest vpon the authoritie of the
shyne day to fit on And one should tell you that in the next sessions following they would decree it had beene a verie fowle day aÌ„d would commande vnder paine of death euerie man to belieue and professe foe Which though I thinke you will saie it were impossible they should make anie such decree yet would I know how you would goe about to proue it Would your not considere what force of feares of hopes were necessarie to induce one of these men to tell such a notorious lye whereby he were to hazard his conscience and reputation for euer and then increase and augment the difficultie by the multitude And farther would you not vrge that there were no such hopes or feares as were able to quell anie one or at least a were necessarie to ouerswaye them all considering that the same hopes or feares could not falle vpon such varietie of estates and humours as all these men were of And knowing certainely anie of these three you would assuredly pronunce the supposed assertion to be false For saie you such a force is necessarie to breake reason in this Congregation but such a force at this present cannot be had and therefore reason at this present cannot be broken in them In which discourse a Mathematician will tell you his demonstrations hang vpoÌ„ the verie same gimalls Wherefore as men cannot ordinarily demonstrate that one bodie cannot bee in two places nor two in one yet are we certaine there is a naturall demoÌ„stration for it and we are by nature assured of it So no doubt but there is a demonstration to him that liueth in London that there is a LondoÌ„ bridge and he is naturally certaine of it though he cannot frame the demonstration by articles and sylogismes as a true philosopher can doe for surely a philosopher if he will take paines may finde a demonstration for both Nephew I hartily thaÌ„ke you for this discourse both for the present subiect wherein you haue contented me beyond my expection as also because me thinke's I conceiue by it that there may be certaine knowledge not only in mathematikes but in all other sciences sithence there is so cleere and efficacious meanes of proceeding euen in morall matters which seeme the most mutable aÌ„d vncertaine of all and where I thought scarcely anie reason was to be expected Vncle. O! coseÌ„ though he was a great man that said Ars longa vita breuis yet he must giue me leaue to be his interpreter for t' is not the length of art but our not taking the right waie which make's it long otherwise art would be but a conuenient solace to our liues Would you thinke that a priuat man following the warres without helpe of others writings by his owne industrie should surpasse the greatest clarkes that haue pored double his time vpon bookes and Monsieur des Cartes this our age hath shewed in a french gentleman yet not only liuing but yong Nephew Me thinke's vncle it were a good worke and necessarie for the Christian world if your self or some other would take the paines to set downe the principles of our faith in forme of demonstration For that I conceiue would take awaie all controuersies and make all ChristiaÌ„s of one beliefe and Religion Vncle. You are a yong maÌ„ and conceiue's not the daiâ—tinesse of the pallates of this age they would not taste such rugged and bitter stuffe nay they caÌ„not disgest anie thing which is not sugered with quaint and pleasont iests Who would reade such a worke Who would haue the patience to studie it to comprehend it and make it his owne This verie discourse which hath passed betwixt you and me is so thornie and full of so manie chained consequences that were it publike few would carrie it away Let vs therefore coÌ„tent our selues to make it knowne to our owne acquaintance to whom vpon occasioÌ„ you may deliuer it by the waie of familiar discourse wherein peraduenture it will sauour better and profit more Nephew I pray leaue me not thus giue me at least some speciall light to answere such obiections as without doubt will be proposed when I shall deliuer your discourse to those who are better red then my self Wherefore least I should disgrace your learned lessons I pray tell me how §. 13 Some cheefe and short obiections may be solued VNcle I can not giue you a better rule theÌ„ to sticke to the churche's authoritie for Tradition and not to be easily beaten of by great names and words for if you considere that a Tradition or a point of faith deliuered by tradition is a point vniuersally preached and deliuered by the Apostles and imprinted in the harts of the Christian world And by an vniuersall beliefe and practise continued vnto our days whereof our warrant is no other then that we finde the present church in quiet possession of it and whereof no begining is knowne if this I saie you considere and sticke well to this appreheÌ„sioÌ„ you neede not feare anie obiection which can be made against you For you rely vpon the testimonie of the whole ChristiaÌ„ church you rely vpon the force of nature borne to continue froÌ„ father to child you rely vpon the promises of Iesus Christ of continuing his church vnto the end of the world And vpon the efficacitie of the Holy Ghost sent to performe it by whom Christ's law was written in Christians harts and so to be continued to the day of doome So that you see no human authoritie by which our Estates and liues are gouerned No proofes of courts or law which neuerthelesse are admitted as Iuges of those affaires which too manie God knowe's esteeme more weightie and important then Religion No consent of historie And in fine if what we haue said be true no demonstration better nor greater nor peraduenture equall On the other side you shall finde all obiectioÌ„s fall of their owne weaknesse As some doe obiect the Millenarie errour for a tradition whereof there is no certaintie nor consent of those who write of it whether it haue beene publickly preached by the Apostles or no And euen thence it is excluded from the nature of such tradition as we rely vpon Others finding diuers fathers agreeing in one opinion vrge them presently for or against tradition As if fathers in their dayes were not priuat Doctors and might not be mistaken in some points as well as the Doctors of the present church T' is true we reuerence the fathers in manie titles aboue anie liuing Doctors yet euerie Catholike knowe's that diuers fathers haue some times light into the same error Wherefore you must note cosen that the fathers speake some times as witneses of what the church held in their days and some times as Doctors and so t' is often hard to distinguish how they deliuer their opinions because some times they presse scripture or raison as Doctors and some times to confirme a knowne truth So that who seeke's Tradition in the fathers and