vse vnlawfull And especially in the tenth chapter he confuteth the verie selfe same reason which the A. towieth so roundlie with in this place which was that for so muche as the eatinge at the Idolles feast was but an owtward thing and went no farther then to the bellie therfore it was indifferent to be vsed or left at a mans discretion So the place then the which their is none stronger in the whole bodie off the Scripture to bind and kepe in the lauishe vse off Christian libertie that the A callendgeth for the enlarging of it betonde the boundes that God hathe set in his word And wheras he saith that S. Paule declareth their contentions which seperate them selues from the church for externall thinges S. Paule maketh no mention there either off contention or diuision from the church neither in deed they which abused then their libertie contended withe the weaker but contemned them Also off deuiding them selues from the church in that place is not a worde who soeuer will reade those places with a litle diligence shall easely perceiue that this is the matter which the Apostle giueth owt in that place As touching externall thinges for which the church of Christ may not contend they are suche as there being no commaundement of God directlie to vse them or not to vse them are left in the discretion of the faithful to be ordered the most to Godes glorie and edifiyng one off an other therfore as I thinke termed off learned writers externall for that they come not vnto the conscience nor bind not yt For otherwise that difference off externall and internall thinges is not sufficient to giue to vnderstand which are thinges indifferent or vnindifferent For neither are all externall thinges left to our discretion as I haue shewed and there are some internall thinges as off certeine inward thowghtes and opinions which are not imputed vnto vs for synne whether side soeuer we thinke or iudge of them As if I thinke in my selfe that there was neuer suche a Hector or Achilles or troye as is described off Homere and virgill I sinne not and if I thincke there was neither is that imputed vnto me for synne But these thinges which be in controuersie seing we offer to proue them commaunded and necessarie by the word off God how commeth it to passe that yow lashe owt so manie places owt off Bullinger and Zuinglius against those which trouble the church for indifferent thinges as thowghe yow had alreadie gotteÌ„ that which yow confesse by and by to be in triall that these things which we demaund are not necessarie What order of iudgement is this first to giue iudgement or euer the cause be heard iff yow will needes be bothe partie and Iudge at least yow should haue saued these vntill yow haue as yow promised shewed the vntreweth off our cause And therfore hereafter as often as yow doo importunatelie and vnstill fully heape so many places togither yow shall haue for answere â— plaine blancke To the 16. sect pa. 14. WHether yow haue either scripture or godlie learned author for your warrant in your assertions partely hath bene alreadie shewed and more shall appeare But yow must learne that the part of a faithfull teacher in the church of god is neither to propound any thing to the church neither to reiecte that which is propounded by other off credit off any godlie learned zelous man And althowghe this be to much yet that which he writethe in the 200. pag. is to farr owt of al square Wher he affirmeth that the argument off authoritie whether owt off the Scriptures or owt off the interpretors off the Scripturrs is the best reason that can be browght in diuinitie To bothe I will answere here in the beginninge that the reader may haue wherewithe he maye beware and know how to estenie bothe his and our proufes And first of all seing the Apostle teacheth Timothie that the Scripture inspired by the holie goste is the onelie rule for the minister which he calleth the man off god either to establishe or ouerthrowe what soeuer maye fall in question in the churche And S. Peter saith that who soeuer speaketh in the churche must speake as the wordes of god And seing all the godlie zelous learned men in the world are not able to authorise or displace any doctrine in the churche withowt the word of god I leaue it to be considered how dauÌ„gerouslye he mainteineth his answere to be good for that it hathe ground either of the word of god or the iudgement of some godlie iearned man and let it be waied whether this be to set vp an other Doctor in the church then Moses or our sauiour Christ Touchinge that the authoritie off the Scripture in diuine matters owght to preuaile I willinglie graunte but that the argument off the authoritie of men whiche haue interpreted the Scriptures is the beste reason in controuersies off diuinitie but off the Papistes whose strongest towers are in the testimonies off the Doctors was neuer hard off And thowghe there be nothing more Papistical then this assertion yet the doctor holding the name and profession of the gospell maye to the vtter subuersion off it cause this to be printed and flie abroade And that the authoritie off learned men should be the best proufe in diuine matters hathe more absurdities in yt then yt hathe wordes For first their authoritie is here set in the same ranke withe the authoritie off the Scripture in that as the authoritie off the Scripturr so it also is set in the superlatiue degree off the best proufe Then their authoritie being preferred vnto all reasons is preferred vnto the reasons drawen owt off the Scripture which in euerie diuinitie cause almoste besides the authoritie are diuerse drawen off the causes and off the effectes c. Thirdlie yt ys absurd to perferr the authoritie of any man which ys onelie his bare affirmation vnto his one reason and discours And seing the ende off proufes in controuersies off diuinitye is that faythe maye be engendred in mindes whiche onelye can be grounded on the worde off God what a miserable yea what â— cursed faith shall that be that is hanged off the authoritâ—â— off men which be they neuer so learned yet are they because they be men Lyers suche as deceyue and be deceyued And wheras he saithe that an Argument off authoritie hathe an other weight in our profession then yt hathe in humane sciences I confesse it hathe so iff the authoritie off the Scripture bee consydered But as for the authoritie off men for the which cause he alledgeth this yâ— is farr otherwise For yff the authoritie off man in humane sciences and in mens matters be off small force off how how muche lesse force owght yt to be in Godes matters yt is clene contrarie therfore to that the D. sayth For althoughe that Kinde off argument off the authoritie off men is Good neither in humane nor diuine science yet
it hath some smale force in humane sciences for as muche as naturallie and in that he is a man he maye come to some rypenes off Iudgement in those sciences Which in diuine maters hathe no force at all as off him which naturally and as he is a man can no more Iudge off them then a blind man off colours Yea so farre is it from drawing credite if it be barelie spoken withowt reason and testimonie off Scripture that it carieth also a suspition off vntrewth whatsoeuer proceded from him which the Apostle did well note when to signifie a thing corruptlie spoken and against the truthe he saith that it is spoken according vnto man he saith not as a wicked or lying man but symplie as a man And althowghe this corruption be reformed in manye yet forsomuch as in whom the knowledge of the truthe is most advāced there remaineth bothe ignorance and disordered affections wheroff either turneth him from speaking off the truth no mans authoritie withe the church especiallie and those that are called and perswaded off the authoritie off the word off God can bring any assurance vnto the conscience So that iff all that the D. affirmeth were trew as it is vntrue and iff all those authorities which are alledged were faithfullie and according to the meaninge off the writers cited as they are almost all writhen and falsified yet being for the most part vpholden by the bare authoritie and credite off men they can giue no reste to any Christian conscience which shall leane vppon them And iff he saye that those men haue not spoken withowt reason and warrant off the word of god then besides that he is greatly to blame that bringeth not the reasons which moued them to thinke so and wherupon as vppon certen pillers that sentence might stand it falleth owt still against him that the argument off authoritie hathe no force as that which hathe no credit off it selffe but as altogither lame is faine to borowe feete off an other And then the D. should haue considered that for so muche as the reason off authoritie standeth for the cause and sake off an other that is to saye for the argument off causes and other places it must needes be worse then the arguments wherupon it hangeth for that for whose cause another thinge is is better thē the thing which dependeth vpon it And therby further followeth that forsomuch as reason withowt authoritie is good and authoritie withowt reason nothing worthe that those argumentes whiche are grounded vpon reasons are better then those which are grounded vppon authoritie And wheras peraduenture he will seke some colour of defence off his absurd speache in the wordes which he addeth of suche learned men as do rightly interprete the scripture that addition as it taketh not awaye from the absurditie so it addeth to the folie and impropretie of speche For besides that he taketh that for graunted which is the question that is to saye whether it be rightlie interpreted or noo he should haue vnderstanded that the rightnes of the interpretation depēdeth not vpon the authoritie of the man or in that suche a godlie or learned man did so interprete it but in that the place is expounded agreablie vnto the suite of the texte And that the D. which vnder the name off auncient authoritie would oppresse the truthe may vnderstand that euen in this magnifiyng of authoritie he is not so good a scholer o◠disciple off his pretended masters of diuerse sentences off the fathers them selues wherby some haue likened them vnto brute beastes withowt reason which suffer themselues to be led by the iudgement and authoritie off others some haue preferred the iudgement of one simple rude mā alledging reason vnto companies off learned men I will content my selffe at this time with two or thre sentences Ireneus saith Vvhatsoeuer is to be shevved in the scripture can not be shevved but of the scriptures thē selues 3. l. 12. c. Iero. saith No man be he neuer so holie or eloquent hathe any authoritie after the Apostles Augustin saith that he vvill beleue none hovv godly and lerned so euer he be vnles he confirme his sentence by the scriptures or by some reason not cōtrary to them And in an other place heare this the Lord saith heare not this Donatus saithe Rogatus saithe Vicentius saith Hilarius saith Ambrose saith Augustin saithe but harken to this the Lord saithe And againe hauinge to doo withe an Arrian affirmeth that neither he ovvght to bringe forthe the councell off Neece nor the other the councell of Arimin therby to btinge preiudice eche to other neither ovvght the Arrian to be houlden by the authoritie off the one nor him selffe by the authoritie of the other but by the scriptures vvhiche are vvitnesses proper to neither but common ro bothe matter vvith matter cause vvith cause reason vvith reason ovvght to be debated And in another place against Petiliane the donatian hereticke he saith Let not these vvordes be heatd betvvene vs I Saye yovv Saye let vs heare this Thus saithe the lord and by and by speaking off the scriptures he saithe there let vs seeke the churche there let vs trie the cause Here yt is manifest that the argument of authoritie off man affirmatiuely is nothing worthe which the answerer notwithstanding maketh so great accounts off likewise that reason whiche is not directly against the trewth is preferred to authoritie which the A. denieth and if Augustin thowght that in a matter off controuersie the authoritie off so manye godlie and learned fathers as were assembled at that Councell off Nece interpeting the scriptures rightlie owght not to be alledged not onelie to condemne and conuince but not so muche as to preiudice an heresie long agoo condemned iff he would haue the trewth tried by the scripture onely let all men iudge how euill a folower off Augustin the D. is which in the authoritie of one or two men layeth so great weight that he thinketh that kinde off proufe to be the best proufe off his and ouerthrowe off his aduersaries cause And iff at any time it happened vnto him as it did against the Donatistes ▪ and others to alledge the authorite off the auncient fathers which had bene before him yet that was not done before be had layed a sure foundation off his cause in the scriptures and that also being prouoked by the aduersaries off the treuth who bare themselues highe off some Councell or off some man off name that had fauoured their parte And therfore iff the A. would salue this with the example off Augustin in other places yet for that he neuer in any cause laieth any foundation either of any scripture or colour of scripture ād being prouoked flieth still from it as from the rocke and sandes o his cause it is clere that if he had that authoritie which he pretendeth vntrulie on his side yet the vse off it in this sorte were bothe by the rule off
othe made with theÌ„ put to deathe And vnles this be admitted we shall be compelled to condemne the spies which entred into league with Rachab the Harlot and SalomoÌ„ which receiued the Amorytes that voluntaryly yelded theÌ„ selues vnto his obedience and withall vnto the obedience off the lorde as it maie appeare in the bookes off Esra and Nehemias where their posteritie which are there called the sonnes off the seruantes of Salomon hauing of olde time grow ne into one bodie off the churche off god withe the children of Israel ioyne themâ—elues with theÌ„ in the restoring of the temple Wheruppon the A. may vnderstande that the Scripture reasonethe negatiuely againste the Israelites in a thinge wheroff there was no commaundement to the contrarie Moreouer we reade that when Dauid had taken this counsell to builde a temple vnto the lorde albeit the lorde had reuealed before in his worde that there shoulde be suche a standing place where the arke off the couenante and the seruice off god shoulde haue a certeine abydinge and albeit there was no worde off god which forbad Dauid to builde the temple yet the lorde with commendation off his good affection and zeale he had to the aduancement off his glorie concludeth againste Dauid his resolution to builde the temple with this reason namelie that he had giuen no commaundement off this who shoulde builde yt Where he woulde grounde this answer vpon the wordes off Zuinglius yt is manifest that Zuinglius reproueth the Anabaptistes not for reasoning negatiuely off the authoritie off the scripture but that they reasoned negatiuely off an acte or an example And there is great difference betwene them that saye it is no conteined or it can not be concluded off any place in the scripture therefore yt is vnlawfull and betweene the Anabaptistes which reason that therefore the baptisme off children is vnlawfull because it is not founde in the Scriptures that the Apostles did babtize any children Wheras iff they had reasoned thus that the baptisme off yonge children was vnlawfull forasmuche as yt was not commaunded in the scriptures althowghe the grounde off their reason had bene false yet their conclusion had bene faste and sure And therfore iff the answerer wolde haue delte trewly he shoulde not haue fathered this answer of Zuinglius whiche hathe no suche thinge but off the Papistes whose proper defense this is againste those whiche manifie the sufficiencie of the worde off God as that whiche giueth men addresse vnto all thinges whiche are to be doone Maister Harding reprochethe the Bishopp off Salusbery with this kinde off reasoning whiche the answerer obiectethe againste vs so often vnto whom the Bishopp answereth The Atgument Maister Hearding meanethe and not very plainely vttereth is the argumente off authoritie negatiuely vvhich is taken to be goode vvhen soeuer proufe is taken off godds vvorde and is vsed not onely by vs but also by many of the catholike fathers And there alledgeth how Saint Paul in the 3. Gal. dispureth negatiuely off the authoritie off the scripture for that the Apostel vppon the wordes off Moses in thy seede and not seades concludeth that our sauiour Christe was vnderstanded likewise he shewe the how Origine reasoneth after the same sorte And a litle after sheweth the reason why the argumente off authoritie off of the scripture negatiuelie is good namely for that the worde off God is perfecte In another place vnto Maister Harding casting him in the teethe with the negatiue Argumentes he alledgeth places owte of Ireneus Chrisostome Loo which reasoned negatiuely of the authoritie of the scripture The places which he alledgeth be very full and plaine in generalitie withowt any suche restraincte as the A. imagineth as they are there to be seene Wheras he saithe that the reason that God coulde giue a perfecte patrone off the churche therfore he hathe so doone doothe no more folow then in there all presence off the Sacrament he doothe but trifle withe his reader For I reason not off the bare power off God but haue ioyned his will with his power For my wordes be that the Lorde determining to set before our eyes a perfecte forme off his churche is bothe hable to doo yt and hathe doone yt Where yt is euidente vnto all men that I grounde my reason not onely off the habilitie off the lorde but vpon his determination not onely off that which he coulde doo but off that he hathe doone Diuision 2. pag. 79. VNto that wherin he was towched for his vnskilfulnes in diuiding in that bothe matters off gouernement and matters of faithe which he deuideth and by diuiding opposethe meete so frendlie together in the gouernement of the Pope he answerthe not And yet hauing nothing to answer he findeth him selfe the talke of a whole sheete of paper For first off all how ridiculous ys it that he saithe he did not put a case but an example Then whether perteines it that he settethe doune what the Papistes saye off the pope what the pope doothe himselffe That also whiche he affirmethe in so good earnest that no gouernement owght to be receiued direcly againste the worde off God that he repeatethe and repeateth againe his negatiue argument of the popes supremacie are they not all strey spreaches fraied owt of ther wittes carying not the weight of a fether to the profe off any thinge in controuersie hauing no knot either with the cause or one of them with another Likewise the distinctions off Ceremonies and gouernement off substantiall and accidentall of externall and spirituall are altogether vnprofitable brought to auoide his apparant ignorance in diuiding Likewise his dalying in his questions what gouernement I meane which is apparant in the discours off all our bookes off boothe sydes also his groping at none dayes by questions what it mente by matters necessarie to saluation which is expressed off me in the very nexte diusioÌ„ and againe in the thirde chap. 2 diuision Afterwarde when he setteth him selffe to proue that there is no one finde off gouernement certaine and vnuariable in the churche let yt be obserued how loosely aÌ„d childishelie he doothe yt For beside the firste reason which is a begging of that whiche is in questioÌ„ and the later reason drawne of the authoritie of maister Gwalier wherof he can haue no aduantage vnles with master Gwalter he will affirme that excommunication is not necessary nor yet conuenient vnder a Christien magistrate all the reste of his authorities drawne owte of M. Caluine the heluetian confession Bullinger are quite beside the cause For they are to proue that there may be a churche withowte excommunication As thowghe the question were what thinges the churche of those whiche be prescribed by the worde off God may wante aÌ„d yet be the churche of god and not what thinges yt owght to haue by the prescripte of the worde off god Or as thowghe the question were how sicke the churche might be and yet liue how meimed
the same that I laye vnto him What ys indifferent yf that be not vvhich the scripture saithe not a vvorde of hathe not prescribed hathe not determined hathe not appointed all vvhiche phrases he vseth as those which signifie the same thinge And when he addethe in the ende that there is none so symple that vnderstandeth not that the churche hathe authoritie to take order in thes thinges dooth he not affirme the same for the churche hathe authoritie onely in indifferent thinges to take order So that it is more manifeste then the daie that which I haue charged him with ones he hathe saide twise althowghe not in the same yet in as full vvordes And where he asketh whether yt be all one to saye the scripture hathe not determined whether baptisme should be ministred opēly or priuately at home or in the churche and to saye the churche maye make baptisme priuate or publike verelie they are in mine and I thinke in all other indifferent iudgement all one and iff they were not yet as I haue shewed yow haue saide bothe the one and the other And vvhere yow saye that I therby giue the reader to vnderstande that yow affirme yt is in power off the churche to apointe that ther shoulde be no publicke baptisme althowghe I giue no more to vnderstande that then that yow affirme that it is in her power to appointe that ther should be no priuate baptisme yet all men see that this ys at the leste the weight off your wordes that althowghe the churche shoulde abvse her power in apointing alwaies priuate baptisme yet that must be obeied For as when yow saie that the scripture hathe not determined whether the communion shoulde be celebrated sitting standing or kneeling baptisme in fontes basons riuers c. Your meaning is to affirme that iff the churche will haue the communion alwaies receiued kneeling or baptisme alwaies ministred in basone that so it owght to be and neuer either stāding or sitting or in fontes so in saying that the scripture hathe not determined whether the preaching off the worde shoulde be publike or priuate c. and that the churche hathe the ordering of this thinge yow affirme that if the churche should allwaies ordeine that preaching and baptizing shoulde be priuate that so yt ought to be Iff yow had saide that yt had bene in the churches power according to the former rules prescribed to haue ordered whether preaching and administring the Sacramētes shoulde be in the towne or in the fielde in a churche as they call it or in some one mans house or other I wolde haue moued no question againste yow but when yow saye that yt is in the power off the churche to ordeine whether yt should be publike or priuate I can not abide yow for euen in the time of persequution when it is preached in the howse off a priuate man I haue shewed that the churche assembling there the meeting is publike wherunto yow answer not a worde Againste the place I alledged oute off Salomon he excepteth that it is strangelie applied and farr fetched Salomon in the chapter before had shewed how the harlot doothe lye in waite for men secrethe and in the nighte time and so pressed with conscience of the euill which she goethe abowte shunneth the lighte and sekethe secrete corners In the beginninge off this chapter he comparethe the wisdome off God in his worde vnto a noble woman whom he opposethe vnto the Harlot and shewethe How she off the contrary parte doothe not lie in waite or seeke corners or night to hide her selffe in or whisper in the eares off men but exalteth her voice and speakethe in the moste open places and corners off streates where the greateste concourse off people is wherupon it may appeare that iff the A. ether will or vnderstanding were at home and not far from him this place had bene nere enowghe the pourpose For iff the worde muste be taught in suche sorte as it maie beste be conueied vnto the knowledge of moste men and leste be charged with the seeking off corners or the couer off the night and yt is manifest that that is better doone when yt is preached publikly then when yt ys preached priuately yt must folowe that by that saying of Salomon yt is prescribed vnto the churche that the preaching owght to be publike And if there be not onely examples off Christe and off his Apostles but also a plaine commaundement as I haue shewed to preache the worde openly then yt folowethe that yf the churche haue power to order whether the worde should be preached publikely or priuately yt hathe power to order contrary to the commaundement of our sauiour Christe And where he saithe that the worde off god maye be taught prtuately and that a man may exhorte priuately that is nothing to the purpose For we speake of the order which owght to be keepte in the exercises that concerne the bodie off the churche and not of the priuate exhortations teachings and admonitions that ether the minister owght to vse towardes the seuerall persons off his flocke or one priuate man towardes another or the father off a howsholde in his familie c. And this is so farre from helping off him that it makethe altogether againste him For as yt is not in the churches power to forbyd thes priuate teachinges admonitions exhortations or to ordeine that thes teachings c. be publike because the lorde hathe commanded thē to be priuate so yt is not in her power to take awaie the publike preaching of the worde considering that the lorde also hathe commaunded yt And therfore yt ys vntrew which he set downe that the scripture hathe not determined whether the worde shoulde be tawght priuately or publikely For by priuate men yt hathe determined yt shoulde allwayes be doone priuately by publyke persons also yt shewethe how and in what case yt shoulde be spoken priuately and how and in what case publikely contrary wherunto the churche can not determine and iff she determine a 100. tymes she is not to be obeied And wheras vppon that that neither the place nor the nomber off Persons be off the substance off the wordes and Sacramentes he woulde conclude that it is in the power off the churche to make the preaching and administring off the Sacramentes publike or priuate he maye aswell saie which he saide in his former booke that yt is in the churches power to take order whether men and women shall come clothed or naked to receiued the Sacramentes considering that to come either clothed or naked is not off the substance off the Sacramentes Where he owght to vnderstande that there are diuerse thinges annexed and hanging by which being commaunded by the worde off god are no more in the churches libertie to alter then yt is in her power to change the daye into night Howbeit as I haue shewed that the place otherwise priuate being by the order of the churche appointed for the assemblie off
obserued The first proposition is manifest considering that the statutes off the Apostels are the statutes off Christ the seconde is Augustines allowed off the D. and iff bothe these be true then the third must needes be This being thus gathered that which I added that therupō yt folowed that there is no sufficient doctrine conteined in the scriptures is thus concluded That which doothe not conteine all the will off God necessarie for vs to doo conteineth no sufficiente doctrine vnto saluation but the scripture by Aug and the d. conteinethe not all the will off God necessary for vs to doo therfore the scripture by Aug. and the d conteineth no sufficient doctrine vnto saluation The first proposition is manifest in that S. Paul to deliuer him selffe from the gilte off bloude towards the Ephes alledgeth that he had taught them all the will off God the second foloweth off that which Aug. and the d. allowe for iff there be some thing commanded off the Apostells not conteined in the worde off God that being necessarie yt must folowe that some necessarie thing for vs to doo is not conteined in the worde And where the A. saithe that neither Aug. nor he say that any thinge not conteined in the scripture is so necessarie that it may not be altered vpon iust occasion by suche as haue autoritie he can not mocke the worlde after that sorte withe faste and loose at his pleasure For if they be statutes off the Apostels and commended vnto the churches what autoritie is there vppon earthe whiche can displace them which the apostels haue placed and iff it be madnes as he saith afterward owte off Augustin not to obserue them or once to reason off them how can they take order in them And this answer is ouerthrowne by the wordes off Augustin whiche folow immediatly But other things saith he vvhich are varied by regions as that some faste vpon the sabbothe daye some doo not c. are at libertie to bo obserued neither is there any better rule to a Christian man in thes then to do as the churche doothe vvhere he comethe Where it is manifest that he opposeth the tradition off the Apostels and ther statutes receiued by tradition vnto those thinges whiche are in the churches power to ordeine and to those wherin yt ys safe for vs to applie our selfes to the order off the churche They being therfore in this opposed the one beinge in the churches power the other are nor the one being of that sorte that off which side soeuer the churche determine off them a man may saflie obey the other muste needes be off that sorte that if the churche woulde otherwise ordeine of them then the Apostels that a man may not safely obey And in the nexte sentence the thinges which he opposethe those statutes off the Apostels vnto he calleth indifferent and therby giueth to vnderstande that he tooke them for vnindifferent and hitherto perteineth that he alledgeth owt off August in Zuinglius name and is found in his booke against the Donatistes where yt ys said that they are to be holden as giuen by Apostolicall autoritie Which is more then if he had said giuen by the Apostels considering that there are thinges giuen off the Apostels as counsailes and left at the churches order to chaunge vppon occasion as were the traditions which M. Caluin speaketh off but they were neuer left vnto the church with an Apostolical autoritie Which autoritie is off the higheste nature and proceding from the higheste court that can be And that this was Augustines meaning appeareth manifestly by the place which I alledged out of his booke againste the donatistes Where he saithe that all those thinges vvhich the churche houldeth generally are to be houlden as praeceptes off the Apostels althovvghe they be not vvriten wherunto he answereth nothing And by that place the folie off the answerer wherby he woulde tune Augustin by maister Caluins wreste is more plainly discouered For where he wolde haue vs thinke that August vnderstood those traditions onely which perteine to order and politie that may be varied and not vnto doctrine yt is manifest that Augustin in that place saithe that the Apostels gaue commaundement tovvching the not rebaptising off those vvhiche vvere baptized by Heretikes and that the custome of off the churche in not rebaptizing vvhich vvas obiected against Cyprian had the beginning off the Apostels tradition Nowe I would knowe off the answerer whether he dare saye that this iudgement off rebaptizing be off traditions which may be chaunged or whether there can be any iust cawse wherefore this may be altered And if he dare not saye this then let him confesse his faut and not seeke to make vp his breaches by sutche vntempered morter Where I saye that thereby there is a gate opened vnto the the Papistes to bring in vnder the colour off traditions all their beggery he answereth that the Papistes are rather confuted by this meanes considering that the Pope hath nether at all tymes nor in all places bene receiued Where to let pas that to helpe him selfe he addeth at all times which is not in Augustines rule he towcheth not the point off the cause For in that onely that it is saide that there be precepts off the Apostels vnto the church not cōteined in the word of God is pusshed at the strongest bulwarcke which the church hath to defend yt selfe against the Popishe beggerie and all other corruptions Which bullwarke is that whatsoeuer is commaunded of the Lorde vnto the church is conteined in the worde off god yff this be once shaken there is no sufficient resistance left vnto the church against this assaut For althoughe yt hath some great likelihood which hath bene generally and from the Apostels times receiued yet for somuche as yt is not vnpossible for the whole church to erre in some point and to haue taken vp or reteined off that which yt had before some thing not deliuered by the apostels it can be no sufficiēt bar to withstand the corruptions offred to be brought in by the Heretikes to saie that the church hath ether doon or not doon so and so sythēs the Apostels tymes And althoughe we might be assured that they are the precepts of the Apostels which haue bene so generally receyued yet the doore is not so close shut against corruptions as he pretendeth For this thing standing that there are cōmaundemēts giuen of the Apostels not cōteined in the word of god they may thrust in thinges which haue not had that generall and continuall obseruation For althowghe Aug. saie that they are the traditiōns of the Apostles which are generally receiued yet he dooth not saie that they onely are and the Heretikes whose corruptions should be repulsed in this respect that they haue not bene generally nor alwaies receiued might haue an easye replye that there is the same preiudice against certen off the commandementes off the Apostels committed to writing considering that
great liberalitie But this aide which the church getteth by encrease off godlie and hable Ministers receiueth litle thanck But the hatred off this cause draue yow headlonge vpon them as your aduertismentes vvhich followe doo declare As there are some among them that fauour this cawse so there are some that like not off it And yet seing they haue ioined togither yea vvhich is verie straunge made great sute vnto the Bishops that they might of there owne charges prouide suche as in seruinge off them might discharge that vvhich the bishop hath charged him selfe with your suspition off spoilinge the church might haue had a fitter lighting place then vpon the Innes off courte Thus muche against your disordered suspition not altogether from my purpose for it shall serue to shew wherupon I conceiued so good hope of them and off other the gentrie off the realme vvhich haue in diuerse places made the same contribution Yf any haue forsaken the ministerie withowt iust cause they are giltie off a horrible fault but I see yow accounte them forsakers off the Ministerie vvhich yow haue thrust owt suche is your equitie to vvhipp them owt and for going owt also And if they hould any off your tenthes and would be counsailed by me they should yelde them into your handes least in beinge partaker off your non residencie they drink also off plages which belonge therto Wher yow saie I haue not answered in deede if your one mā be wise ād godly and the hūdreth fooles and wicked I haue said nothinge nor meane not now to doo being worthier to be hissed owt then to be answered Yow saie that the 16. Actes ▪ sheweth how well Timothy was thowght off a noble interpretation This is allwaies your fashion either to corrupte the places of the scripture or els to tell that which no man dowbteth of But for what cause dothe S. Luke tell that he was so well thowght of dothe he not shew in the nexte ver to be the same which I haue alledged And therfore Master Beza regardinge the meaninge of S. Luke addeth the word therfore declaringe for what cause that testimoniall was giuen This is your reason S. Luke sheweth how well Timothy was thowght off therfore yt is vntrew that S. Paul to cut of all occasion off euill speache receiued him not but vpon commenmendation off the brethren bothe in Listra and Iconium I doe not saie that S. Paul would not haue receiued him vnlesse that euerie singuler person had giuē testimonie vnto him vvhich was in those places but I shewed how circunspecte S. Paul was in takinge any into any part off the ministerie and how it is not to be thowght that he would haue vppon the Testimonie off one proceeded vnto any election seing that in one which he him selfe was not ignorant what he was to auoid the euill speache off some he was carefull to haue the testimonie off the church As it cā not be proued ▪ that he would not haue receiued him if all had not consemed therto so may it easely be shewed that if the most part had not liked of him he would not haue taken him For besides that it was against S. Paules maner to doo any thing off his owne priuate authoritie in the church off God it had not bene aduisedly done to haue procured the testimonie off the church for the admitting off him into his companie if the churche not consentinge he would haue taken him for that would haue bred a great flame off displeasure betwene the church and S. Paul and should haue bene alwaies shot in the mouthe off the aduersaries against the authoritie of Timothes ministerie yea off Paules also vnto whom he was ioyined for that he had receiued one disaproued of the Christians them selues All which he might by your iudgement easely haue auoided iff either he would haue rested in his owne knowledge off him or els haue addressed him selfe to some one for his testimonie ād not to haue hazarded the alienatiō of the church by com̄ittinge the allowāce of Tim. vnto their testimonial But mine argument is nothinge worthe because it is drawen off an acte off the Apostle Yf this be trew S. Luke was euil aduised to in title his booke the act or deedes of the apostles For it is as much in the ans lāguage as a booke of deedes which christiā mē are not boūd to followe ād yet it was not withowt cause that whē there are cōteined in that booke bothe the doctrine and deedes of the Apost S. Lu. as off the greater parte intitled his booke the deedes or actes of the apostles wherfore dothe he in the begin̄ing of that booke repeating the sum̄e of his gospell by that transition or passage make one bodie of them bothe and bind them as it were in one volume was it not to giue the same authoritie vnto the one a◠to the other to shew that the church had wanted so muche of a perfecte directiō as it wanted of that storie Wherfore dothe he in the begin̄inge shew that our Sau. Christ instructed thē with the cōmaundementes thowchinge his kingdome was it not to teache vs that whatsoeuer they did in buildīge of the church they did it not of there owne heades but by his authoritie And if a cōmanndemēt vnto them be not a commaundemēt vnto vs then haue we no word in the Scripture to warrant baptisme with For the commaundement of baptisinge was spoken to the Apostles onely withowt any further lymytation Fynally vvherfore dothe S. Luke set owt the Apostles fylled vvith the holye Goste Was yt onely to gyue credyte vnto there doctryne that yt should be beliued and not vnto there Actes that they should be folowed yes assuredlie vnto there acres that they should of euerie one according to his vocation where they maye be folowed For the further confirmation wheroff yt ys to be consydered what S. Paul vvrote vnto Tymothe Whom he instructynge how he should behaue hym selffe towardes the troublers off the church dothe not onely call him to the regard off his doctrine but also his conduite or maner off doing Wherby he meant to note his order and maner off doyng in the church off God and publykly for yt could be smally otherwise to the purpose off that vvherfore yt ys alledged Sanct Paules pryuate doynges could gyue Tymothy lytle instruction how he should behaue hym selfe towardes the troublers off the Church To the Phillippians also he callethe the Bishoppes Deacons and whole church both to doing off that which they heard and which they had sene in hym Yf therfore S. Paul will haue the churches followe that vvhich he did amongest them yt ys manifest that the Actes off the Apostles are rules for vs to followe And vnlesse this be admitted I would gladly learne off M. D. Where in all the scripture he can proue the imposition of handes which I think he will not denie to be necessarie And this is that vvhich M. Caluin doth flatly
about An. 266. had no authoritie but was a poore Bishop vnder persequnting Emperours And if the Emperours had been Christian then as they were heathen yet how cometh yt to passe he doth not vnderstand that in going about to make men belieue that the Bishop off Rome at that tyme had authoritye to limite dioceses parishes c. in the church off God he setteth vpp a Pope and armeth him with that authoritie which he neuer came vnto foure hundreth yeares after Finally if this Monke were off any credite he is directly against him euen in this cawse For off the wordes before alledged yt is cleare that he appointed vnto euery elder a seuerall parish vvherin he should keepe him selfe which is against the pluralitie off benefices that he so greatly striueth for He asketh where it appeareth that the scripture deuided nationall churches into congregations and parishes I answer that off that the scripture willeth elders to be chosen for euery competent congregation and particular bodie off church and also that thes assemblies as all other thinges in the church should be with the greatest conuenience so that as Ierusalem had commendation in hauing her building knit closely together euen so the church as much as may be conueniently should haue her partes not onely in a spirituall bond off charitie but in neighbourhood of dwellinges well trussed one with an other yt is apparant that although the scriture doth not mention parishes nor precisely define off the compasse yet yt giueth the rule wherby they are squared owt For when a parish well bounded is nothing els but a nomber of those families which dwelling neere together may haue a commodious resort and the assemblies off the churches owght so to be ranged as they may be neerest the place off their spirituall refection yt followeth that the scripture hathe after a sort gyuen the churches tarriers and that a parish well bounded for the spirituall intercommuning hath testimonie owt off the word off God. Where he asketh proofe off this that dioces is taken for a parish yt appeareth first that in the primitiue church bishops in steed that they are now off such a dioces were then of a parish afterward when they began to hooke into their possession moe churches then they were able to feed they were called bishoppes off dioceses ▪ yet the name parish was not quite worne owt but indifferently vsed for a dioces as appeareth by the councell of Ancyran where one translation hauing dioces thother hath parish And yt shall better appear in the 8. Tract that at the first there were dioceses off so narrow compas that diuers parishes in England may appear to be off greater circuit then they That the place off buriall mentioned off Euseb wat in the field may as I saied be gathered off the vse off the church which I haue noted in an other place That the churches of Christ had nether thē nor in the time that the D. imagineth any churchyardes ys manifest considering that then the temples wherunto the churchyardes were annexed were possessed off idolaters The answer to the incommodities off buriall in churchiardes that by that reason churches and other thinges must necessarily be remoued is a begging off that in question and otherwise insufficient For yt is in demaund wether it be conuenient and if it had been yet being not necessary it owght for such abuses to be taken away And beside the incommodities assigned it was as may appeare taken of the Papistes from the superstition off the heathen For Lycurgus made this law that men should burye in cyties and round about the temples Now residence being necessary and that principally for preaching off the word it appeareth how disordered a power yt is off the bishop off whose licence the pastor both chosen and ordeined must depend in a thing precisely commaunded to him by the Lord and for omitting wherof the thunderbolt of Gods course is from heauē throwen vpon him Therfore the chapter intitled Off licences to preach shall be heere in a word or two dispatched First the D. charged with false dealing in that he surmiseth of the Ad. as if one might preach withowt their approbation to whom yt apperteineth answereth their meaning is plaine belike he hath it by reuelation for in their wordes there is not a title sounding thar waies But he saith yt was their owne case which put from preaching would haue preached against the bishops will. Where leauing that to those that may haue knowledge therof I answer that he towcheth not the matter For both they speake ād my reply was of those which ordeined to preach the gospell are sent to their charges not able to doo their duties withowt further licence as if a man charged to doo a thing should be bound hand and foot of him that charged hym and layed at his mercy whether he wil lose him Wherunto he answeretth not a word Thirdly he laieth to my charge that I had not answered towching that the Adm. would haue preached against the bishops will a word wheroff is not found but onely in his latter book then which what greater dotage can there be as yf there could be default off answer whera there was no such thing obiected In that I saied vvithovvt their approbation to vvhom yt apperteineth he excepteth that there is an equiuocation yt being not set downe by whom the election should be made Where beside that yt was apparant before by a whole treatise what we think in that behalf and owt of place to speake off it heere his exception is too childish For to whomsoeuer thelection doth appertein this case remaineth the same whether it be vnlawfull to ordein one to preach the word and yet to keepe it still in his power whether he shall doo yt or no. Off this sort is that he saith I suppose no man may preach which hath not certein charge and onely in yt Wheroff although I make not heere one word off mention yet howsoeuer yt be taken this case remaineth one Where I shewed that the bishop could not alledge for defense that he vvhom he sendeth prisoner to his church is ether heritik or schismatick or suspected for that he ovvght not then to haue admitted hym vnto that ministery he vseth open falsehood For he saith I suppose that hypocrites schismatikes c. may be knowē forthwith or suspected may be by and by remoued Wheras first I haue not a word off Hypocrites and haue before manifestly tawght the contrary off that he heere forgeth that the church can not procede against Hypocrites that is those whose sinnes are not discouered and that God onely hath reserued their iudgement vnto him self Then where I shewe that those which are to be admitted to the ministery owgt to be free from suspicion off heresy or schisme the D. answereth as if I had saied that those which haue already bene in the ministery were vpon suspicion off heresy to be desposed Which what
no merueill if he were ignorant off the difference between a booke and an epistle and therfore not vnlike but Polidore helped him in his title for the next diuis I am content that the issue declare from whence the archbishop came This is deintie and tender geere and such as I can not deale with diuers times before his answer hath bene that tharchbishops ministerie differeth from the Bishops towching order here he saith they differ not in order before to proue that the church might appoint an archbishop he saied that it might appoint an office beside the offices off the scriptures now he is gone from that saying the Archbishops ministerie is no other ministrie but an other degree Also in an other place he to mainteine tharchbishop saith the church may ad ministeries here because he is ashamed off that he denieth that yt is a new ministerie Then forasmuch as his answer standeth in this difference off ecclesiasticall office and degree and againe betwene ecclesiasticall degree and order becawse I thinck they were neuer heard off before they need some autoritie off the scripture at least some Ecclesiasticall writers to confirme them And beside that in ecclesiasticall writers the mynisteries are separated one from an other by degree the Ans him self in an other place will haue the word degree when it is saied they get vnto them selues a good degree to signifie a diuers ministrie from the Deaconship Likewise in an other place to proue that a Bishop is aboue a priest he vppon certein autorities concludeth that in those times there were three degrees off ministers bishop priest and deacon whereuppon yt must follow that if the Archbishop differ from the bishop in degree ecclesiasticall he must differ in ministerie euen as the degree off deacon being different from the Elder maketh a seuerall mynisterie from yt yea theruppon followeth that there being then but three degrees in the church wheroff the archbishop was none by his owne saying there was then no archbishop seing he maketh him a seuerall degree from them which is a manifest ouerthrow off that he defendeth In an other place to proue Timothe archbishop he alledgeth that thoffice off tharchhishops and bishops be one becawse whatsoeuer is necessarie for a bishop is necessarie for an archbishop which is ridiculous For then a bishop is all one with an Elder considering that whatsoeuer is necessarie for an Elder is necessarie for a bishop and the Euangelistes office the same that an Apostles considering that whatsoeuer is necessarie for an Euang. is necessarie for an Apostle Where to proue the offices all one he should haue saied not onely that it is necessarie for an archbishop which is for a bishop but also that whatsoeuer is necessarie for an archbishop â—s likewise for a bishop Where he saith they differ onely in order and policie and therfore all attributed in the Epistle to Timothe the Archbishop agreeth vnto euery bishop theroff followeth that a commen as he is called not differing in office from our bishop as himself confesseth after shall by the same reason haue power to doo all thinges described in that epistle and consequently make ministers and put owt as well as our bishops doo Thes thinges therfore were giuen owt or euer they were well thowght off some time tharchbishop differeth in office from a bishop sometime he differeth not sometime he differeth in order sometime not some time in degree sometime not To proue that S. Peter by him self withowt the autoritie off other Apostles instituted Archbishops ys browght the example off S. Paul which made Timothe and Tite Archbishops which is to proue one thing in controuersie by that which is likewise and is all one as if one doubting the suffiencie off his creditor in steed off some substanciall man to assure his debt should haue a banck rowt browght to be bownd vnto him Which manner off reasoning when all men know how absurd it is it appeareth that the Ans vsing it continually is as they say at the end off his rolle That S. Paul did not appoint Titus and Timothe of his owne autoritie onely hath before appeared that he did not appoint theÌ„ Archbishops shall afterward God willing be shewed Beside that yt hath bene already off Timothe shewed that he was an Euangelist and the same reason is off Tite To my other reason that S. Peter would not graff the most noble plant as it is counted off the ministerie off the gospell in the rotten stocke off Archflamines he answereth that Peter might place Archbishops where the Archflamines were not in respect off them but in respect off the cytie Which distinction I confesse I vnderstand not onely I see that in this clowde and mist off confused and vndistinct distinctioÌ„ he would steale away vnespied for yf in the same cyties onely where there were Archflamines as we are borne in hand and in place off them Archbishops were placed and as the Archflamines were set to ouersee the flamines so the Archbishops to ouersee the bishops how can it be but they were placed as well in respect off those Achflamines as off the cities For they differ not in this point from Archflam considering that as archbishops were placed in respect off great cyties so were the Archflam before them Here also the Answ floteth in his iudgement off Peter For before he saide he had the cheife rule off the â—â—â—stles in all matters and here he was not aboue them in power so that onles he can mynce vs a diuersity betwene superior in rule and superior in power yt is cleare that he is not the same man here that he was there The lordes preistes and Sacrafices were before the preistes and sacrifices off the Gentills therfore that exception God instituted preistes and sacrifices though the Gentils had the like â—â— vaine to proue that there may be Archbishops as there were Archflamines A Kinge was necessarie for the Israelites to shadow owte to theÌ„ the kingdome of our S. Christe therfore that exaÌ„ple is owte of place To proue conformite betwene the people of God and Idolaters in thinges which are not necessarie as the Archebishoprick is confessed beside that yt ys an euill conclusion to saie there maie be conformitie betwene the people off God and Idolaters in cyuill affaires therfore in ecclesiasticall to ordeine a bishopp and mynister being the institution of God in euery churche where there was other a flamen or masse preiste can not be saide to be framed according to those orders But to ordeine an Archbishop not instituted off God bothe in that place where the Archflamen was and with that rule and autoritie ouer the bishopes which the archflam had ouer their flameÌ„s can not be imagined but to haue bene framed according to that Idolatrous function Yf yow will therfore make the like yow must proue that as yt ys the institucion of God that in euery churche there sholde be a bishop or mynister
Apostle should neede make any proufe of it but off him which doothe a thing staggering and waueringe ther might be some dowbte whether he synned and therfore the Apostle hauinge said that he is condemned in so doinge addethe this reason for that he dothe it not of faithe which beinge sinne is therfore damnable Where he saithe that if a man should do nothinge wheroff he hathe not assurance by the word off God that he dothe well that therby should be ouerthrowne Christian libertie in indifferent thinges the faulte is in his want off vnderstanding For euen those thinges that are indifferent and maye be donne haue their fredome grounded off the word off God so that onlesse the word off the lord either in generall or especiall wordes had determined off the free vse off them there could haue bene no lawfull vse off them at all And when he seethe that S. Paule speaketh here off ciuill priuate and indifferent actions as off eating this or that kind of meate then the which their can be nothing more indifferent he might easely haue seene that the sentence off the Apostle reacheth euen to his case off taking vpp a straw For iff this rule be off indifferent thinges and not off all I would gladlie know off him what indifferent thinges it is giuen off and off what not And the same also I require off him in the other generall rule off doing all thinges to the glorie off god For iff that reache vnto all indifferent thinges it must needes comprise also this action of his Which iff it doo then as no man can glorifie God but by obedience and here is no obedience but where there is a worde it must followe that their is a worde And semethe it so strange a thinge vnto him that a man should not take vp a straw but for some pourpose and for some good pourpose or will he not giue the lord leaue to require off a Christian man endewed with the spirite off God as muche as the heathen require off one which is onelie endued with reason that he should do nothing wheroff he hathe not some ende and that in all his doinges whether publicke or priuate at home or abroade whether withe him selfe or with an other he owght to haue regard whether that which he dooth be donne in dutye or no And iff the taking vp off a straw be donne to good ende either off helping him selfe or others regarde of profite or pleasure or what els it hathe testimonie off the word off god And if it haue not an ende and a Good ende will not the A. giue the lord leaue to coÌ„demne that in his infinite wisdome which men by the light off a litle wisdome do accompte folishe or will he be so iniurious to the iustice off god that he maie not iudge that to be synne whiche they saye is donne against dutie What also that some euen off those heathen men haue tawght that nothing owght to be donne wheroff thow dowbtest whether it be right or wronge Whereby it appeareth that euen those which had no knowledge of the word off God did see mutche of the equitie of this which the Apostle requireth of a ChristiaÌ„ man and that the cheifest difference is that where they sent men for the difference off good and euill to the light off reason in suche thinges the Apostle sendeth them to the scoole of Christe in his worde which onely is hable thoroughe faith to giue them assurance and resolution in their doinges And althoughe to mainteine his former vnaduisednes he had rather saie that men should doo nothinge but which they beleue not to displease god then with the godly learned to say that they ought to doo nothinge which they are not assuredly perswaded of that it pleaseth God yet euen this which he sayeth off beleuinge that it doth not displease God I would knowe off him Where he can fetche the grounde off but in the worde off god For iff he doo beleue that it doeth not displease God and beleife be not but in respect of the worde off god it must followe that he hathe some word off God which tellethe him that that dothe not displease the Lorde And where he accusethe this doctrine of bringing-men to dispere he dothe it wronge For when doubtinge is the waye to dispere againste whiche this doctrine offrethe the reÌ„medie it muste needes be that it bringeth comforte and ioye to the conscience off man. The reason which I assigned why it is necessarie to haue the worde off God goo before vs in all our actions namely for that wee can not otherwise be assured that they please God he dothe not once touche His secoÌ„de significatioÌ„ of these wordes not to be of faithe that is not to be an article of faithe if it had any grace in it yet it is merely idle in this place and helpe the no more to the vnderstanding of the place of Saint Paul nowe in hande then smoke dothe the eyes And where in the ende he saieth that thes places doo proue as muche for all cyuill actions as for ecclesiasticall and that I can no more proue by thes that a certaine forme off discipline is appoincted in the Scripture then that euerie ciuill action is precisely commaunded to be doone without any change I graunt it neither did I alleadge them therefore but was driuen into this disputacion onely by occasion before alleadged in the beginninge off this diuision and manifestly expressed in the next 7. Diuision pag. 86. WHere as I alledged that in making ceremonies and orders off the churche this owght to be obserued which sainct Paul requireth that they offende none but especially that they offende not the churche off God the first exception off the answerer is that this rule prescribeth the dutye vnto priuate men and not generally vnto the churche As thoughe the rule were not generall or this thinge were prescribed vnto them in respect of that they were priuate and not in respect off beinge Christians whether priuate or publicke in which case that which is commaunÌ„ded to one â—s coÌ„maunded to ahor as if the Lorde were so carefull in priuate offences and careles in publike And iff offence ought to be taken heede off in thinges doone withowt many witnesses withowte all countenaunce off autoritie and once onely how muche more owght yt to be taken heede off in the orders off the church which haue so many lookers on so greate coÌ„tinuance and suche force off autoritie to strike yt deeper in His seconde exception is that by this meanes the orders off the churche shoulde be subiecte to one or twoo mens liking or misliking which answer procedeth off two foule an ouersight and wante off vnderstandinge off the worde offense For Saint Paule by offense doothe not meane displeasure or discontement but that wherby occasion is giuen to anie of synne and transgression off the lawe off God which maie as well be with alowance as disalowance when all
that yt is not our question which the A. dooth so shamefully affirme whether the scripture haue expressed all externall ceremonies c. In the next page vnto me shewing that the place off August to Casulanus is against hym for that where he would proue that certein thinges are in the churches power the wordes which he alledgeth say that the decrees of the forefathers and coustomes off the people off God are to be obserued tying the church to the decrees and coustomes off those which went before he answereth that August giueth a rule vnto priuate men and not vnto the church Wherein he condemneth him self off hauing alledged that sentence cleane beside the cause For it is manifest by the wordes immediatly goinge before that he alledged it to proue the autoritie off the church in thinges indifferent neither can yt in any other respect haue any bonde with that which he pretendeth to proue And nowe that yt is shewed howe vnfitly the place is alledged he shifteth his footing and in steade off a rule towchinge the church he maketh yt a rule for priuate men and in steade off shewing the libertie off the church he sheweth the bondage that a priuate man is tyed by Where I conclude against hym off that sentence off Augustine that we ought to followe the coustomes and orders off the Apostels and off the primatiue churches seing yt ys certein that they were our forefathers and the people off God and that we owght not to followe the Papistes which are neither the people off God nor our forefathers to the first off folowinge the Apostels he saith there were certeine thinges conuenient onely for their tymes which are not to be folowed Wherein onlesse he meane those thinges which are in controuersie yt is nothing to the pourpose and iff he meane them yt is a manifest begging off that which is in demaunde Vnto the seconde point off not taking the Papistes coustomes and decres he referreth me to other places Where notwithstanding he neuer answereth this argument off Augustin and so in pretence off a fitter place he hath taken a longer day Where he noteth me of ignorance in that I saide I could oppose Ignatius and Tertull vnto August and Ambrose towchinge the fast vppon the Lordes day saying that there is no difference betweene them th one part speaking off the Saturday the other off the Sonday I am contented to beare his charge off ignorance But is there any man so forsaken off all not learninge onely but common reason which dooth not vnderstand that thes propositions differ and fight amongest them selues yt ys a detestable thinge to fast on the Lordes day which is the Iudgement off Ignatius and Tertull and yt is lavvfull to fast on the Lordes day Which is the Iudgement off Augustine set downe off him selffe And when Ambrose speaking not onely off the Sabbothe off the Iewes but generally willeth that vvhatsoeuer the coustome off the church be in that behalffe off fasting yt should be folovved dooth he not manifestly ouerthrowe his saying which saith to fast on the Lordes day is to kill the Lorde And euen in the case off the fast off the Iewes Sabbothe which Casulanus demaundeth counsaill off yt appeareth there was great disagrrement betweene the aunciēt fathers consideringe that in the Canons which are attributed vnto the Apostles it was ordeined that if one were founde to faste on the Lordes day or on the Sabbothe one onely exepted being a clerke he should be deposed and being a layman separated from the supper off the Lorde If I haue off ignorance set the fathers together by the eares as he saith let vs see howe with his knoweledge he can part them and set them at one in this behalffe That the fastes which were kept in the tymes off Ambrose and Augustine and longe before and their allowance especially off the Lentenne fastes Were corrupte and prophanations off the true vse off fast yf neede were as I haue in part so yt might in more wordes easely be shewed That the counsaile giuè for the keeping of those superstitious fastes might haue place in a straunger and priuate mā which owght not to stand towardes a Citisen and hym that hath charge yt is apparent And yet bothe thes the Answerer would beare downe with wordes and nothing but wordes Where the answ saying that he knoweth nothing in the place off Augustine or Ambrose towching fasting which may not be obserued withowt iust offense may be taken either to speake of the places which I alledged thouching merite off fasting or the places which him selffe alledged I will rather esteme vntill I knowe the contrary that he ment off those which he browght him selffe then together with the slipp off standing daies off fast he should also fall flat by opinion off the merite in fasting And so I would haue the reader to take him that there be no offense taken at this place so doubtfully left Where he bringeth me in concluding that because the auncient fathers erred in some thinges therfore they saide true in none my wordes cary no suche sense But for so muche as they erred and euen in this matter off fast which was in hande they owght to haue no further credite then their authoritie is waranted by the word off God and good reason and that therfore the Answ which presseth their bare autoritie withowte any warde off the word of God or assistance of good reason ether browght of him selfe or fetched from them bringeth an intollerable tyrannie into the church of god This I gaue to vnderstand which because he durst not in plaine wordes gaine saie he hathe tourned my wordes vnto another sense Cap. 3. Diuision 2 pag. 103. Augustine saithe that the feast of Easter Pentecoste c. are the statutes off the Apostles and commended to the churches and addeth that they are not conteined in the scripture Whereuppon I concluded that there is some thinge by this reckening commanded off God to be obserued not conteined in the scripture and consequently that there is no sufficient doctrine conteined in the scripture whereby we may be saued To this the Doct. answereth that yt is a pretie and sound collection I haue in deed for shortnes sake trussed that into twoo or three propositions which to put in full and comptere argumentes required a greater nomber Howbeit the soundenes off the collection is apparant to all which will open their eies And because the Ans will yeald no obedience vnto the truthe vnlesse she taking him by the collar haue her handē vppon his throat the foundenes off the collection shall thus appeare vnto him What soeuer was decreed off the Apostles and commended vnto the churches to be obserued is necessarie but some thinges by Aug. and the D. not conteined in the word off God were decreed and commended by the Apostels vnto the posteritie of the churches therfore some thinges by Aug. and the D. not conteined in the word of God is necessarye to be
they haue nether generally nor continually bene receiued Where he alledgeth Zuinglius vsing a sentence off Augustine not muche vnlike to confirme childrens baptisme yt is to be noted that Zuinglins vsed not that sentence but in the confirmacion off a thing which hath certeine testimonie owt off the word off God as hath childrens baptisme whereit could not be dangerous and then yt is to be obserued that thereby is ouerthrowne his whole answer For Zuinglius taking that sentence off thinges which haue a necessarye obseruation in the church off God aÌ„d can not be chaunged putteth to flight his whole answer with the defense theroff which supposeth Augustine to haue gyuen this rule off thinges indifferent And therefore either the A. is abused in vnderstanding thes places off thinges indifferent or els Zuinglius in vsing this for the necessitie off childrens baptisme gaue his aduersaries great aduantage whilest they might haue answered with the D. that that authoritie off the Apostels is suche as the church vpon consideration may alter And where he alledgeth M. Caluin as one which had vsed that rule off Augustine I answer that yt is one thing to alowe the sentence off a writer and another thing to take some aduantage off it when his aduersarie presseth hym with his authoritie A man vseth some time that defense prouoked by the manner off assault off his ennemie which he would not doo iff he might choose his owne fight and it might serue M. Caluin in part for arm our against the bare autoritie off Augustine vrged off the Papistes which is not of proofe against the shot off the word off God. Where he saieth that the Papistes haue no wicked thing which ether hath bene generally obserued or whereoff he is not able to shewe the first autor I answer that it is well the church standethe not in neede off this defense off yowres For if the Lenten fast which in Augustines time had bene by longe coustome receiued if holy water holy oyle the superstition off praying towardes the East which are off those traditions that in the place by him alledged owt off Basile are attributed vnto the Apostles yff those I saie and suche like be against the word off God let hym tell howe he will cleare the Apostels of being autoures off these corruptions which are fathered of them by men off suche credit onlesse he flye to this rocke which by the doctrine off traditions he goeth abowte to vndermine that is to saie that the Apostles haue left in writing whatsoeuer they would haue the churches obserue For what autoritie soeuer he bring to shewe who were the first inuentors of these thinges yt being humane is counteruailed by them which haue caried them vnto the times off the Apostels Where vppon on that I saide that all the commandementes off God and off the Apostels are nedefull for our saluation he maketh such a terrible owtcrie as if all the church had bene set on fire I dowbt whether for the vanitie of the accusation I should vouchesafe yt of answer which for the strong and bitter wordes might seme to require a large defense Howbeit let him vnderstand that when I speake of all the commandementes of God and off the Apostels nether by the deduction off that which I handled nor by any Iudgement not altogether peruerted could I be thowght to meane any other commaundementes then those which perteine vnto vs And iff I had met with the vainest trifler and hawker after syllables which can possibly be yet the sentence I set downe is sufficiently fenced against all his greedines of snapping at yt For the Ceremoniall lawe and personall lawes giuen in times paste being nowe no commaundementes off God and the Apostels can not be comprehended vnder my wordes off the commandementes off God c. And iff a man leuing the deduction off the cawse which I had in hand will staie in the bare wordes which I vsed then euen bothe cermoniall and those which were giuen to particular persones albeit they be not to be doone yet are they for our better instruction in the will off God needefull for our saluacion To the argument which I vsed that iff Augustine would haue vs doo those thinges which the Apostels vsed in the churches not committed to writing then muche more he would haue bene off aduise that we should kepe that which is committed to writing towching their gouernement off the church he answereth nothing In the thirde diuision pag. 107. to that I found fault with off the second rule off Augustine which is that yt is madnes ether not to kepe or to reason off that vvhich is vniuersally obserued off the church he answereth that was a rule for Augustines time and not for all times Wherein he first condemneth him selfe off wandring from the cause which to shew that some thing may be established in our church not commaunded in the scripture alledgeth a rule that belongeth not vnto vs Then it is manifest howe helpeles a shift this is considering that the rule is generall and as generally gyuen as any other the rules which the A. comendeth vnto vs out off Augustine Beside that I alledged that euen in August time yt was wicked to giue any such autoritie to the decree or custome of men as not to enquire into yt which because he durst not denie he left vnanswered And whereas he addeth if it be not repugnant to the word I shewed that Augustine could haue no suche meaning which althoughe he confesse in one word contrary to that which he set downe yet in the same page lest the truthe should get any victorie at his handes he dooth in effect denie yt For he saithe that Aug. hath sondry times in suche rules made this exception iff they be not against faith c. Where yt is manifest that this exception is of those rules which are diuersly obserued and which he openly opposeth vnto this rule and suche as this is off the necessary obseruacion off thinges The place vnto the Gall. was needefully opposed For if there be commandementes off the Apostells vnto the churches and thinges which yt is madnes not to kepe or to enquire into not writen there ys something necessary to saluacion which S. Paul preached not considering that the whole summe off his preaching is cowched in writing The place off Augustine off abrogating ceremonies otherwise indifferent he answereth was not for his pourpose Howbeyt of his pourpose had bene to haue boulted owt the truthe yt â—â— cleare that hauing this cawse in hand whether ceremonies in them selues indifferent owght to be remoued he would not haue dissembled yt As for that he chargeth me with leuing owt off thinges before in the middest and after and thereof hath almoste fylled a whole syde it is vtterly vnworthy any answere considering that I haue left nothing owt which is in controuersie nothing which I doo not willingly confesse nothing that he hathe any aduantage by yea I left that
diuersitie betwene the lawe and the Gospell whiche I haue alledged maye be fetched from those lerned men whiche handle this poincte yt is enowghe for me so to haue helped the answerer owte withe that whiche he trauailed with that I haue not onelie shewed howe this cause is nothinge hindered but greatly helped therby Yff the plaine wordes off the Prophete Zacharie will not serue for our pourpose what shall become off your cause that hathe neuer a worde of the scripture let vs then heare why it will not serue Because forsoothe by that meanes the parentes shoulde haue powre of deathe vppon their children and therfore their muste some other sense be sowgthe then that vvhiche the vvordes doo proporte Wherunto I answere that Moses shewinge vvhat owghte be doone agaīste those false teachers whiche goe abowte secretly to vvithdrawe frō the trewe worship of God saithe that allthoughe he be his brother his soōe his dawgther or his wiffe he shal not spare but fill them Tell men owe I praie yow doothe not Moses meane there truly and as his vvordes sounde that the false teacher shall die If yow dare not denie yt then yow see yowr reason vvhiche yow heere assigne is nothing vvorthe for there also yt is commanded to the father to kill his sonne Now if yow liste to lerne yow maye perceiue that by thes vvordes vnderstanded simplie there is no powre giuen to one priuate man to kil another nor for the parente as a priuate man to kill his children but this manner off speache is grounded vppon the lawe off God vvherby yt vvas prouided that the witnesse vvhiche had accused shoulde throwe the firste stone againste the conuicted person for so muche therfore as boothe Moses and Zachary after Moses wil haue the father accuser of his owne childe if the knowledge off his inticemente to Idolatrie remaine vvithe him alone therfore also they ascribe the killinge of the giltie person vnto them as a thinge belonginge vnto the dewtie off the accuser But seeinge this sense please the yow not let vs heere what yow bringe Yf saithe he yow will referre yt to the tyme of the gospell then this is the true meaninge if to the time off the lawe then that Yf al be gospell yow speake vve muste needes beleue yow ▪ yf your wordes haue no further aucthoritie then yow gyue them by Good reason and conference off the scriptures then castinge a waye the sense whiche hathe warrante off the manyfeste wordes off the Scripture yow shoulde haue confirmed by substanciall argumentes that whiche yow haue set downe The prowde Sorbonistes and Magistri nostri off Paris did neuer vsurpe a more absolute auctoritie and more owte off rule then this is And yt is to bringe in an intollerable Tyrannie into the churche off God and lordeshippe not to be abydden Whiche when I vnderstande off all interpretations off men be they neuer so lerned and sharpe muche more off suche wooden interpretations whiche the answerer thruste the vppon vs But tell me Good Sir what difference is there betwene yowr firste interpretation and yowr seconde For iff vnder the gospell it be lawfull as yowr exposition suppose the for parentes to kyll ther children whiche shall prophecey falsely what leue yow to the Iewes wherin they differ from the Christians and tell me also howe yow differ herin from that whiche I set downe that Idolatrie ovvghte to be punished vvithe deathe vnder the gospell But pardon me I thinke I see yowr difference which is that the Iewes muste doo yt accordinge to the lawe off Moses and the Christians accordinge to the lawe off whome why kepte yow backe that Surely iff the Christians be bounde to doo yt as yowr interpretation saythe they are bounde to doo yt by the lawe off Moses for I knowe no other lawe off preceptes but that There is yet another difference whiche yowr wordes maye gyue suspicion off that is that the Christian parentes shoulde rather put them to deathe then be withdrawne by them so that the Iewes haue a symple commaundemente to put them to deathe but the Christians haue yt vnder condition yf they can not otherwise kepe still the trewe worshippe off god But where and in what shopp is this difference coyned Whose Image and superscription beare the yt the Doctors What Paules no Whitgyftes I knowe him not yt is not good For howe shall they be sure they shall not be withdrawne by him onles they procure hym to be put to deathe And althowghe they were owte off perill off beinge withdrawen how are other prouided for whome he maye corrupte And yff it were possible that poison which he hathe coulde not hurte any other where is the reuenge off Godds glorye whiche hathe bene dishonored by suche false teachinge and in the maintenance vvheroff the zeale off the children off God aswell vnder the gospell as vnder the lawe dothe consiste Thes differences betwene his interpretacions he giueth incklinge off but the folye off them was so apparante that he durste not laye them open And althowge vve haue alredy to manye interpretations by one yet here comethe the thirde And this is an allegorie whiche expoundeth killinge confutinge Where firste the answerer shoulde haue remembred that he condemned in the Admonition allygoryinge as Papistical vvhiche in deede is not so muche Papisticall as Anabaptisticall allbeit they fetched their allegorie from two famous men maister Hoper and Maister Alasco Here yt is Catholike in him that was there Papisticall in them then obserue Good reader howe he that chalenged the Admo For makinge the holy scripture a nose off wax and me that I make yt yt a shipmans hose hathe here set vpp three interpretations off one and the same place Off vvhiche althoughe neuer a one can stande vvith a nother yet becawse he thinkethe they all make for him he stickethe not euen to strike hym selffe to gyue a pricke vnto the truthe And as for maister Luther I answere withe Ierome whiche albeit he did not so well practise it him selfe yet in one place of the smaller Prophetes that cometh not now to my minde saithe that to seeke for an alligorie vvhere a Plaine and litterall sense maie be had is to seeke a knotte in a rishe Seinge therfore the scripture meaneth here as it speaketh and calleth a spade a spade and a figg a figg to expounde killinge confuttinge and corporall vveapons spirituall and heretikes heresies is by Maister Luthers Good leaue owte off season Futhermore if Maister Luther shoulde by confutinge off their herysies shut owte the corporall punishmente off deathe he hath the Answ interpretation whiche he calleth thē true meaninge off the place for enemie So that either maister Luthers meaninge was that they shoulde not onely put them to deathe but also confute their heresies or els yt serueth as well to ouerthrowe that whiche the answerer hathe set downe as that which we mainteine But obserue here I beseche yow the shamfull practise off the Answ If Maister Caluine or
to admonishe those to whom the election off the ministers belongeth to tell them what maner a one owght to be chosen if that be not yet ys not this necessary to commend the election of the minister of the worde to the praiers of those whiche are presente at the election And where as he saithe that yt being extraordinary is not off necessitie to be followed he should haue saide that being extraordinary yt owght not to be followed Now vvhen he graunteth them to be suche as may be vsed althowghe not necessaryly he concludeth against him selfe that they are not extraordinary for as those thinges whiche are ordinarie in the worde off God owght to be followed so those thinges that are extraordinary are by no meanes of vs withowt an extraordinary spirite to be followed thinges whiche may be doone or lefte vndoone are nether ordinary nor extraordinari but haue a meane nature betweene bothe But as it is in in prouerbe the egle ketcheth no flies Maister D. hathe greater matters in hande then thes and yet to keepe the proprietie of speche profiteth muche to the keping off the pure nes of doctrine But the wordes off maister Caluine saithe he are plaine So they are in deede plaine to shewe your great vntreuth and plaine to shewe that which I contende for that is that althowghe some thinges are not to be followed yet other some thinges in this election are and owghte to serue for the direction off the election off the ministers nowe And because you shall not abuse the reader nether with the deniall off thinges to be so which are manifest nor guilfull escapes wherwithe yow goe aboughte to defeate the autorities which I alledge although yt be muche against my will to lenghthen my booke with translating so thicke and three folde of other mens sentences into mine yet being driuen to yt I had rather be somewhat troublesome to the reader then that yowr vnhonest practises shoulde not appeare to all that will not willingly close there eyes against the truthe But before I cum to maister Caluine I will set downe Cyprians wordes which are there commended by maister Caluin Cyprian therfore speaking off the election of a Minister writethe amongest other thinges thus God commandeth that the preyst shoulde be placed before the face off the vvhole congregation off the Ievves that is to say he dothe teache and shevve that the ordeininges off the ministers ovvghte not to be made but vvithe the knovvledge of the people standing by vvherby they being presente either theyr faultes shoulde be discouered or their vertues commended and so it may be a iuste and a lavvfull ordination vvhich is by the voyces and iudgemētes of all examined The vvhiche after vvard according to the dyuine mastershippe or authoritie is obserued in the Actes off the Apostels vvhere Peter speaketh vnto the people off ordeining a bishop into Iudas place Off which place fyrst yt appeareth that the people not onely had but oughte to haue to doo in the appointing off there minister and that not by any custome or decree off men but by the eternall worde off God bothe in the olde and newe Testament Also that theyr right consisteth bothe in examining the life off him which is to be chosen and in the approbation off him yff they like off him or refusall iff they like him not which Cyprian proueth bothe by the 20. off the numbers by this place and the sixte off the actes which he also citeth Now I come to maister Caluin After he hathe in the 13. section shewed that the election off the Apostell into Iudas place is no certaine rule for our elections he sheweth further whearin yt is no rule namely for that the election there was committed to lotte the vocation off an Apostell so requiring that by the iudgement off the lotte as yt were by Gods owne mowthe a successour might be appointed in steed off Iudas But in the 14. section he sheweth the lorde so approuethe off the iudgment off men vvhich he after expoundeth the churche that euen in the Apostels appointement vvhich haue this prerogatiue that they shoulde be created immediatly from God the iudgment off the churche shoulde not be passed by and to that endecitethe the 13. off the actes and 2. verse and this place off the first off the actes and 23. verse and off those places gathereth a perpetuall document to establishe the discipline and order off the churche in elections for euer Whearby appeareth that maister Caluins minde is not as the doctor woulde make vs beleue that ther can nothing be gathered out off this place perteining to our elections Afterward confuting them which vppon the places off Timothy and Titus gooe abowte to proue that the election off the ministers is in the Bishopps powre he saithe thus VVel therfore sayd CyPrian vvhyle he contendeth that yt commeth off the authoritie off god that the minister shoulde be chosen the people being presente in the eies off all and shoulde be by the cōmon iudgment and testimonie approued vvorthy and fitt And forth with reciting Cyprians vvordes before alledged and quoting this place off the Actes he concludeth in this sorte vvee haue therfore saith he that this is the lavvfull vocation by the vvorde off God vvhere those vvhich are chosen are appointed by the consent and approbation off the people Here againe yt is manifest that Maister Caluine vseth this place off the Actes to proue that the election owghte not to be withowte the approbation and consent off the people Furthermore speaking against the popishe election for that in yt all is in the pleasure off the bishoppe He citeth Leo and Cyprian which proue that by the worde off God the church owghte to haue her interest in the election off the minister and many Synodes which dooe severely prohibite suche elections and if they be made commaund that they shoulde be off none effect Then concludeth yff thes thinges be trvve there is this day in poperie no canonicall election nether by Godes nor by any ecclesiasticall lavve And if there vvere nothing els hovve can they excuse them selues that they haue spoiled the churche off her righte And so goeth forthe with confuting off the same reasons off the Papistes which are afterwardes alleadged off the doctor This may be sufficiente to let the reader vnderstande howe the Ans woulde shamefully abuse him with the authorytie off M. Caluin Wherin I doe not forget that in going abowte to proue that this place off the Actes hathe place in diuers pointes in the ordinary election I haue together with those places belonginge to the examinatiō pressed also those which touche the election yt selffe Which I did pourposely that I myghte not be compelled to set downe thes places againe a litell after Where yt beinge alleged for the election which is here alledged for the examination receiueth the same answere off the S. which this doothe Vnto my reason in the second Diuision that if an
and Doctors as thowghe it belōged vnto the churche and the churche had put yt ouer vnto them Yt is enoughe for me that the churches subscription was there and that not for a cyphre Therfore althowghe S. Luke for shortnes sake did call yt the decree off the Apostels and Elders yet S. Paule whiche gaue them to the churches and whiche in other places standeth so muche vppon the authoritie off the churches to stoppe the mowthe off the contentious did not by all likelihood omyt the authoritie off the churche to gyue them the more grace withe the churches vnto the whiche he delyuered them The Ans whiche will proue nothinge him selfe but off whome wee muste take all moste althinges at his bare worde hathe notwithstandinge a great grace in settinge me to proue all thinges be they neuer so manifeste Let him then vnderstande that this whiche he requirethe profe off is confirmed by the authoritie off maister Cal. and maister Bulling The manner off speache also is in Liuy where the consul is sayed to set vp an other consul into the place off him whiche was dead when he did yt not by his owne authoritie onely but by voices off the Senate and people Yf the Answ coulde haue firste gyuen his reader a drinke off the riuer off forgetfulnes to haue made him forgette what he owghte to proue peraduenture this talke off his mighte haue some ende but iff he carie in minde that he hathe to proue that almoste al ecclesiasticall writers doo affirme the word liftihg vp of handes to be vsed in the scriptures for the solemne manner off ordeining ministers by imposition off handes and not for the election by voices I say iff he cary this in minde he shall perceiue easely howe idle for the moste parte this talke is And verily all thes authorities here browghte are either vaine or directly againste him selffe or in sufficient to proue that whiche he vndertaketh For to what pourpose are here alledged two places owte off maister Caluin two Canons gyuē to the Apostels and the Testimonie off Ierome They proue that lftiing vp off handes is taken in ecclesiasticall writers for imposition off handes whiche is confessed by me in plaine wordes But to the perfourmance off your promise that almoste all the ecclesiasticall writers affirme that this worde is so taken in scripture yet there is not one syllable In this rancke also off idle testimonies is that whole section off maister Gualter For I confessed him to thincke that the word was so taken but yet so that withall he ioyneth the election off the people by voices Whiche the Answ woulde by that signification off the worde ouerthrowe So that all thes browght in off the D. looke another waie then he woulde haue them That the Canons attributed vnto the Apostels make not to proue the sole election off a bishoppe shall be discussed after here it is onely sufficiente to haue shewed that they make not to proue that whiche the Ans alledged them for Wherin I meruaile also what he meaneth to aske leaue of me that yt may be as lawfull for him to vse them as it is for me as if I had vsed them otherwise thē I owght I neuer vsed them as the naturall canons of the Apostels I haue shewed that they are not nor can not be theirs but as the Canōs off other Councels where amongest the bad there are founde some good And I neuer vsed them but where I confirmed by Testimonie off the worde off God that vvhich I bringe them witnesse for Therfore this phrase beinge vsed thrise or fowre times withowte all occasion argueth hym to be a vaine trifler whiche becawse he hathe nothing to answere gyueth hym selfe the bridle to forge and surmise all maner off vntrwthes And where by this preface yt semeth the man woulde haue stricken this matter as dead as a dore naile yet hauing leaue to vse them he hathe not so muche as once come neere vnto the matter ▪ onely he hathe gained some fewe lines to encrease his confused heape The next rancke is of those whiche are not onely not profytable but directly hurtefull vnto his cause In whiche number is the witnes off Maister Bull. that vvorde vvhich signifieth lifting vp of handes is so placed that vve may vnderstande either that they vvere chosen by voice off the people or ordeined by laying on off handes especially if he had added the fowre next wordes I thinke bothe vvere doone Wherby appearethe that Maister Bullingers opinion is that bothe the churches chose by voices and the Apostels laied on their handes which directly ouerthrowethe the Answ For his answer is suche that onles the worde doo onely signifie there the ceremonie off imposition off handes and not the election by voices yt goethe to the grownd therfore Maister Bulling sayinge that boothe were doone in this place there coulde be no flatter testimonie againste hym then yt And where he cyteth Maister Bullinger that he is elected by common suffrages off the People vvhiche is chosen by the testimonie off the beste I knowe good reader thow merueileste not that it comethe owte off tyme for that is his ordenarie but doest thow not meruaile what misticall rethoricke hathe seperated so farr a sonder this sentence from the other whiche he before alledged Leue to meruaile there is no greate arte in it but there is some crafte For if thow gyue heed vnto him yt may appeare yt was onely to couer the trechery whiche he vsed in takinge bothe that whiche goethe before ād that whiche cometh after leuing quite owte those wordes by me alledged whiche stande in the myiddest off those two sentences marringe his whole marcket And becawse yt woulde haue to palpably appeared if he had doone yt in one and the same place he makethe thē to come as it were strangers owte off two seuerall countries that dwell harde together For the sentence it selfe what would he trowe yow conclude That the bishope muste haue the election yf it be not that I knowe not wherfore yt is browghte Yf he meane to vse yt therun to then muste off necessitie Maister Bullinger speake thus that he is elected by the commō suffrages off the people whiche is approued by the testimonie off the beste bishops Doe yow lawghe at thes thinges when the D. is in so good earneste Seinge he seeth that both the testimonie off the Scripture ād writers oulde and newe Papistes onely excepted gyue intereste off election vnto the people yet rather then yt shoulde fall from the bishopps he maketh a metamorphosis and change off the Bishoppes into the people The meaninge off Maister Bullinger if any coulde be so ignorāte as not to vnderstand is that the faithfull onely haue intereste in the election off the churche and that the Papistes haue not nor owghte not to haue to doo in it nether any other heretickes and scismatickes from the churche Whatsoeuer yt be yt can be by no means drawne to preiudice the
shoulde be mēte Therfore if yow had spared that cauil yow mighte haue bene cleare of two moe errors which yow are fallen into by affirminge partly that S. Luke by the worde lifting vp off handes signifieth the whole solemnitie of creatinge ministers which can not be true seinge he expresseth two other parts off yt whiche are praier and fastinge partly in affirminge that he dothe in the wordes off laying on off handes all waies vnderstande the bare layinge on off handes onely when as in two off those places whiche I haue alledged it maie appeare that by those wordes is noted not onely the puttinge on off handes but also the praiers whiche were made for the receiuinge off the giftes off the holie goste Which thinge expressed in an other place to haue bene done by Peter and Iohn we must esteme obserued at othertymes Yf I had not browghte the place off the Actes the A. had had nothinge to saie to that I alledged of Saint Lukes borowinge this phrase not off those which came many yeares after but of those which were before But seinge destitute off yowr owne yow are entred vppon my possession againste my will and so also that yow vvill thruste me owte let yt be sufficient that yow haue eased yowr selfe heere a vvhile I saie therfore that this place maketh againste yow in that this vvorde in that place signifieth not a layinge on off handes vppon the heades off the chosen but a chusinge by voices consideringe that wee reade plainly that he chose his Apostels by voice Let vs heare now how it maketh against vs Firste becawse the word is not there taken for liftinge vpp off handes but for appoinctinge and ordeining As who shoulde saie yt is not vsuall vnto the scripture and to all speaches by figure in one parte to note the whole ād therfore S. Luke by that one forme off election passed by the céremonie off liftinge vp off handes notethe this election whiche was made by voce off our Sauiour Christe yt maye be also applied vnto other electiōs wherin by goinge from one syde to another or by writinge his voice in a table the consente off the chuser is vttered So dothe the scripture by bondes and chaine vvhiche are particular kindes off restrainte note all manner off restraincte off libertie althowghe a man haue nether bondes nor chaine 's a bowte him So that that which is so often saide in the gospel simply off our Sauiour Christes chusing his Apostels S. Luke did here in figure not without greate grace vtter Where yow saie that by this means yt signifieth not to ordeine by suffrages in deede in this place yt can not consideringe that our Sauiour Christe was but one But vvhere yow vvoulde conclude therof that Paule and Barnabas by their voices onely chose the ministers and elders Yt is further a sunder then euer yow can sett together heere yow muste be admonished that where the moste off yowr witnesses did forsake yow before yow beheere forsaken off them all For there is neuer a one off the newe vvriters especially named of vs bothe but vppon that place off the Aces hathe in plaine wordes approued the election by the churche Secondly the person off our Sauiour Christe whiche chose with whome none mighte be ioined in commission and the person off the Apostels whiche coulde not be chosen of any but off God did sufficientlie off them selues withowte further addition argue the sole election off our Sauiour Christe But in the 14. Actes seinge nether the Apostels vvhiche did chuse vvere suche as mighte not be accompanied off the churche nor the Mynisters that were chosen off suche degree as mighte not likewise fall into the choise off the churche and consideringe also that all the elections off the ministerie spoken off before in whiche the Apostels had to doo vvere by consente of the churche yt is cleare that if S. Lukes meaninge had beene to tye this election as streighte vnto Pau. and Barn. as the other to our Sau. Christe he woulde haue put in vvordes vvhich mighte as clearly haue declared that meaninge in this as the circūstances of the persons doo in the other Thirdly if this worde whiche notethe the choise by voices shoulde be restreined vnto Paule and Barnabas then also the vvorde vvhich declareth that they praied shoulde onelye be restreined vnto them for as that is gyuē vnto them so is this Nowe if it be absurde to saie that in those publike praiers Paule and Barnabas onely praied yt is as absurde to saie that they onely chose and the same may be saide off fasting For that which followethe vvith fastinges is all one as if he had saide fasting sauinge onely that S. Luke for elegancy sake and to a voide the multitude of participles comminge so thicke turned the verbe into the nowne so that for so much as Paule and Barnabas did not onely faste but the churche also yt muste followe that they chose not onely but the churche vvith them Therfore as S. Luke in saying that Paule and Barnabas praied and fasted meaneth not that they praied and fasted onely but that they wente before the reste in gouerning those Ecclesiasticall actions euen so in sayinge that they chose by voices he meaneth not that they chose alone withowte the churche but that they guyded and directed the iudgementes off the churche Laste off all seinge that all the twelue to gether woulde not enterprise to doo any thinge off their priuate autoritie vvithowte consente of the churche muche les can yt be thowghte that Paule and Barnab woulde attempt yt Hereto make an end of this dispute I will answer that vvhich is brought off this vvord p. 163. And first I deny that euer I saide that this word by it selfe withowte ioininge any thinge vnto yt signifieth election off many by voices for yt can not signifie any thinge vnles yt be ioyned with somethinge These vvordes off the churches althowghe they declare of vvhome the election vvas made yet they are not added to note the manner of the election as the vvorde Act. 14. but to gyue credite vnto the embassadors vvith the churches vnto vvhich they wente that they mighte safely committe their monie vnto them for the behoufe of the churche off Ierusalem Therfore it is nothinge yow alledge that this addiciō off the churches had bene needles if the word liftinge vp off handes had signified off it selffe an election by voices For Sainte Paule shoulde not haue to the full aduanced their credite vvith the churches if he had giuen onely to vnderstande that they were chosen by voices of many considering that they were chosen not only by the voices of many men but by the voices off many churches Wheruppon I conclude that S. Luke Act. 14. vsed that word as the Grecians before him for electiō by suffrages and withal put him in minde that his certein and manifest thinges haue neither grownd to stand on nor light to shew them by
haue answered yt before There is nothinge so easie which is not harde to him that is vnwillinge And therfore the A as Salomons sluggard saith that the Lion whose delighte is in the foreste and in the wildernes is in the highe streat or in the burse that is to saie maketh difficulties wher none is And as this partly cometh of his vnwillingnes so diuers of thes questions if he doo not dissemble come of wante off knowledge not onely of the gouernemente of the churches nowe but off all aunciete tymes For he asketh who shall complaine off the faulte committed in the election to the churches by if the elders to vvhom that care especially apperteineth doo not others owght whō that disorder offendeth Ther needeth no callinge together and therfore no danger off tumulte disorder confusion charges partes takinge runninge vpp and downe losse off time offence quarels yt is enowghe that yt be doone by the eldership off the churches and if were needfull to haue the churches who le consente it might be doone in ordinarie meetinge for the seruice of god without anie of those things which the D. imagineth The churches maie admonishe by their seueral or cōmen letters emōgeste thē But aske me not who shall carie the letter what he shal haue for his paines whether he shal ride or goe a foote whiche yow might as well as those fonde questiōs which you haue moued It is meete the prouinciall Synodes be certeine and standinge as often also as maie be conueniently and it was ordeined as I thinke in one of the Africane Councels that their shoulde be at the leste twoo or three euery yeare So there shall be as spedie prouision off a pastor for the churche in suche cases off difference as now when they be without a pastor six whole monethes For the questions who shall summon the Synodes and in what place they shall be holden they perteine not to this questiō onles the A. will haue no Synodes at all for if he admitte them the sum̄oner and the place which are meete for the assemble generally and for the decidinge off all causes which fall into the consideracion off the Synod are meete also for this cause And where he asketh what if the prince doo not his dutie then yt is as if there vvere no godly magistrate then yt is vvith them as if suche a disorder shoulde happen vnder an vnchristian prince and then the people shall perishe in their sinnes but their bloud shall be required at his hand But still the A. seethe not how hee reasoneth againste hym selfe For if none of the bishoppes off the foresaide parishes none off the elders neither those bishoppes and elders vvhich emongeste the reste and in the name off all are chosen as the flowres oute of the prouince ād sente to the Synode nor the magistrate I saie if none off all thes nor all thes together doo their dutie how shall we thinke that the bishopp vvill doo it And iff hee doo yt in appoinctinge a fitt bishopp for the parishe and the parishe will not admitt him but take one vvhich is vnmeete off their owne choise what remedy hath he when he is forsaken off the magistrate Thus as shortly as I coulde I haue answered this legion off questions and if my answer in speakinge off thinges so commen be tedious take thy selfe good reader vnto the A. which merueileth at them as if they came oute off India Where he saithe I thus appointe the Prince a good office I haue shewed that the scripture appointeth yt and not I and it is the moste honorable office which the Prince can haue to see the churches be kepte in good order nether taketh yt any thinge from the royall estate that he muste obey and serue the lorde And where he saithe by this meanes the Prince muste stande and loke on all this while and in the ende laie to his hande I answer that wheras thes waies off admonition by the churches and Synode are sente before his authoritie yt serueth not onely for the ease off the magistrate whilest that after this sorte oftentimes the difference is ended before it come to him but also agreeth better with the maner off Phisicke which owght to be vsed in such diseases For that vvhich may be conueniently wonne vvith a vvorde shoulde not be gotten by the sworde and that vvhich maye begotten to bee doone with conscience shoulde not be essaied by compulsion Yowr slaunder that wee gyue no more to the cyuill magistrate then the papistes so often repeted is already and god willing shall be more apparante Yt is also a notable and an impudente slaunder that the Magistrate muste onely at the cōmaundemēt of the seniors execute suche lawes as they haue deuised wher as wee holde that if al the bishopes and elders in the realme woulde decree vnlawfull thinges the Prince owght to make them voide ād that he may ād owght to punishe all ecclesiasticall persons which walke disorderly Likewise yt is a fond dreame of surcharginge the Prince with thes matters as thowgh the Princes authoritie necessarily deriued vnto diuers in euery shire for other affaires off gouernment maie not likwise depart also this care vnto them Therfore if yow haue no better exceptiōs then these I am not afraied stil to cōmit my reasons to the iudgement not onely of the godly vvhich rest in authoritie of the word but euen off the wise ād reasonable man which maketh his account of likelihoodes THes highe wordes that he remembreth no learned writer new nor oulde which denieth that there were fewe professors of the gospell in the Apostels times in respecte off those professe nowe what haue they beside a crake And in respecte off the oulde writers yt is absurdly saide For howe coulde they compare the nomber of the professors of our times with those which were in the primitiue churches onles they shoulde prophecie seinge they were dead long before And maketh yt for yow if the newe writers doo not denie this Iff it he no good reason from the scripture negatiuely in those thinges which yt professeth to speake off is it good from other vvriters and frō one parte off them in thinges which they make no profession of ▪ I looked therfore yow shoulde haue browghtesome vvhich by affirming that yow saie mighte if not make it true yet at the leste seeme true I could off yowr chalenge take occasion to bringe all the peregrination off Sainct Paul declared in the Act. Epistles and especially in the 15. Rom. drawen to my hand by which appeareth that he for his parte onely had caused the Gospell to sounde in more then halfe off the worlde I coulde also fetche in Euseb and Ierome which testifie vvhat the other Apostels did for their parte I propounded that which I saide withoute proofe because the thinges are manifestly knowen and suche as can not be denied yow affirme withowte all proofe that in controuersie and wheruppon yowr cause in yowr
the parable of the sower in the 13. of Sainct Mathew forsomuch as according to his saying for one in the church which heareth profitablie three doo the contrarie yt muste follow that euen in the persequuted churche there muste be thrise as manie euill as good Onles peraduenture he will saie that our S. Christe spake that off the estate off the church in time off the ciuill magistrate which was spoken off the whole estate off the churche vnto the worldes end and especially to that present churche which was vnder the crosse Ys it trewe vvhich yow heere affirme can yt not be otherwise in the time off persequution but that churche offices muste be chosen by common consent Howe cometh then to passe that yow denie the election Actes 1. and 14. to haue bene made with the consent off the churche How happeneth yt that yow affirme that Timothe and Titus off their owne authorities withowt the consente ether off eldershipp or people appoincted ministers vnto the churches in Ephesus and Creata that in Cyprians times which were times of persequution the electiō vvas made in some places vvithowt the people verily he had need be a verie kun̄ing ioiner which should set the◠together for the impossibilitie which yow imagine yt is not such but that if the commoditie of the churche and the institution off God had so suffred the churches woulde haue submitted them selues and their voices in their elections vnto the order of one And besides that christian humilitie and loue off aduancing the trwth for which they had forsaken all woulde haue let them to that submission there was Ecclesiasticall discipline to driue them vnto it Onles they woulde rather quittethe church which lightnes doothe not agree with the zeale which yow for yowr aduantage ascribe vnto a persequuted church HEere he denieth that he hath saide that the consent off the churche in the choise off the minister can not stand with the time off the Christian magistrate All the reasons vvhich he alledged are to proue that the election vnder a Christian magistrate can nor be safelye and conuenientlie committed vnto the churche and euē here he saith it is in thes times pernicious and hurtfull But that which can not be safely and cōueniently doone owghte not be doone muche les that vvhich is pernicious and hurtfull Therfore if yow thinke as yow speake yow think as I haue saide that the churches election can not stand with the time of A Christian magistrat And your salue wherwith yow woulde plaster yt that the ciuill magistrate maie ordeine so if he liste is nothing worth For if it be daungerous if yt be inconuenient as yow say to committe the election to the churche he owgte not althowge he woulde giue it into her handes Where yow conclude that yt was in powre off the ciuill magistrate to order that matter because the Emperours made lawes off the election which they woulde not haue doone yff yt had bene ordered by the worde off God yow are to farre wyde For wee reade that Aza made a lawe that who soeuer did not seeke the Lord should die And there are lawes made with vs that men shall heare the worde off God and receiue the sacramentes and yet thes thinges are commaunded of God and vnchangable nether is yt at the pleasure off any magistrate to order them otherwise Yf the reasons vvhich Musc bringeth for conformacion off the election off the churche can be answered then I will leaue them and followe his authoritie otherwise I accounte that althowghe he wrastel with it vvith his lefte hand yet he vpholdeth yt with his righte T. C. concealed nothing subtilely in leauing owt that the ministers ovvght to be blameles he lefte owte that which made nothing ether for or againste the pourpose If the A. had considered what I proue owt of this place ether he should haue omitted this or spoken yt againste his consciēce For I propounded onelye that the election off the churche was both in the times of the Christiā magistrate and cōfirmed by them and the D. can not denie but this place proueth that fully whether it be according to the doctrine of the Apostles or no I shewed before Therfore this disputation is with your selfe and with nothing which I set downe And if I had so set it downe whether the decree off the Emperour would haue borne yt owt considering that the sentence which I lefte owghte to be shut in a parenthesis I leaue yt vnto the iudgement of the reader As for the reasons vvhich are vsed for that pourpose the one that he would haue said decre◠and not wee decree is answered before Thother of propounding three owt of which one should be knowen not practised at any tyme by the Apostles is not sufficient to proue that the Emperour did not set before him their example seing that in the principall poinctes and causes off the election amongest which the chusers are the efficient he kepte him selffe vnto the election of the Apostles Yea if it be well considered yt shall be easely perceiued that he stucke too curiously and precisely vnto the election Actes 1. whilest as there were two sett vp of which one should be taken so in a grater multitude he would haue three out of which he would drawe one And althowgh the imitacion of the doctrine off the Apostles were onely as yow would haue yt that the moste pure should be taken yet yow can not denie but the Emperour tooke this to be the best way to haue most incorrupt ministers that the election should be made by the inhabitantes off the citie Howbeit because I propounded onely to proue that elections by the church haue bene confirmed by Emperours I will not striue with him in this point because I will stop vp the holes as muche as may be wherat he breaketh owt alwaies from that which is in question Yt were an euill interpretation to expound the inhabitantes off the cytie the cheife off the citie especially considering that the decree of other Emperours vvhich followed ordeined that the minister should be chosen by all the people And considering that the Nouelles in latin are corrupte in many places yt is vnreasonable to expound the Code and other lawes by them especially with such open violence And yt may be that the translator in steed off the heades of families put the heades off the citie but for this also I will not striue What ether against my cause or for yowres conclude yow off that the Metropolitan ordeined one off the three which were chosen after that sort Likewise what gaine yow if which is vntrue or very doutefull as that which hath autoritie off bothe sides a man should accord yow that Charles the great was Emperour of the French and not off the Duch Thes are nothing but baites to draw from the cause which yow would so faine shifte yowr handes of The shelter also yow seke in those wordes according to the canons off that
diocese will not holde owt the whether For although it might be therby gathered that there vvere seuerall Ceremonies in the elections off the dioceses yet it is plaine by his wordes that the elections vvere throvvgh ovvt made by the church vvhich is that vve desire Because yow busie yowr selfe so much to proue that this was not decreed by autoritie of the vvord of God althowgh yt be not that vvhich I tooke in hand to proue yet the wordes off that decree proue yt fully And albeyt he saied not according to the rules of the Apostles yet he saith that in effect For in saing that the church should vse that election in the name and authoritie off god what is yt els but that god hath so ordeined And in that he calleth yt the honor of the church which he giueth not him selfe but assenteth vnto he declareth yt incident to the church And what a reason is this Thēperour for bad that any man shoulde spoile the churches of their elections therfore it was in the Emperours powre to take awaie the election from the churches Which is in this diuision for feare of forgetting fowre times repeted ād vnworthy once to be cōfuted as I haue before declared And as that which the A. alledgeth off the rest of the decree maketh nothing to proue that the electiō off the church is in the Emperours powre so that which im̄ediatly foloweth vvhich he hydeth in c. doth manifestly proue that he helde yt for grounded of the vvord off God that the churches should haue the election off their mynisters For he addeth Because vve haue bene tavvght by the holie fathers that this thing that is to saie the taking awaie off the election from the church as the D. himselfe expoundeth yt is most greuous synne If therfore it be greuous synne to spoile the church of this honor and synne is defined the breach of the law off god yt followeth that the Emperour toke yt for a lawe of God that the church should chuse her minister And if I had bene bente vppon that poincte I could haue cited diuers testimonies which Illyricus vseth wherby this off the vnchangeable necessitie off the election by the church is confirmed As that Leo the firste affirmeth that no reason suffereth that he should be bishop vvhich is not chosen by the people alledged and pressed against the Papistes off Maister Caluin to the same pourpose Which place how violently and vnfaithfully yt is wrested off the D. in the end of this treatise shall be considered Also that he alledgeth off Leo the fourth and Celestine which confirmed the same ordinance vvith this testimonie it is not conuenient and yt is againste reason yt should be othervvise Likewise owt off the epistles off the Archbishop off Reines in Fraunce vvho diuers times vseth this saying he ovvght to be chosen of all vvhom all must gyue obedience vnto Last off all a whole treatise owt of the second booke of Cusanus vvhich proueth of diuers places out off the scripture Cyprian and canon Lawe that yt is no constitution off men but the lawe off God that the minister should be chosen off the church and that vvhosoeuer doth not enter into the church by that means entreth not in by the doore but is a these and a murtherer Thes I would haue browght at large if I had not contented my selfe with proofes owt of the scripture for the necessitie off yt which I here haue shortly set downe because I see the D. more afraied off the iudgemēt off the auncient church then of the scripture so that althowgh yt be a slender buckler to shild him selfe that the constitutions in that behalfe make no mention off any grownd owt off the word of god wheras he should rather haue shewed that they protested in their lawes off the indifferencie againste the necessitie off it yet euen that buckler also is by diuers Testymonies taken from him Yt is a poore falsifying off Platina vvhich is nothing but change of one worde for another without any gaine at al. For the Emperours cōmendacion serueth me as well to proue that the election of the church was alowed of and confirmed of the ciuill magistrate as if he had commaunded yt The second place off Platina proueth nothing les then that it was in the Emperours powre to change the election seinge that he nether made nor altered any forme off Election but onely off two Elections by the people mainteined that vvhich vvas lawfull Seinge also Platina supposeth no right off makinge the election in the Emperour but by the resignation off the Bishopp if that place proue any thing or thother after alledged owte off Bale and Barnes they proue that yt was in the Bishoppes hande to order yt at his pleasure Which howe vntrwe yt ys maie be considered off that vvhich hath bene before spoken againste the sole election off the Bishopp and off that vvhich is here confessed that the Bishopp of Rome began to vsurpe that which belonged not vnto hym For iff he encroched vppon the Emperours right no meruaile althowgh he brake in vppon the possession off the church Where he saith yt is to be noted that the libertie for the people to chuse was graunted by Charles the greate note also tha◠that note is worth nothing For where he would haue yt seeme that he was the firste that gaue that libertie he is confuted manifestly by the wordes off Charles a litle before alledged vvho speaketh of that election as of a thing accustomed of ould and doth not make any newe lawe therof but gyueth his assent vnto those which vvere made The vvordes yow ascribe to me that the electiō perteineth not to the Emperour I haue not I kepte the very wordes of Platina and nether added nor tooke awaie from them Where yow vvould seme to confirme owt of Platina in the life of Iohn the 13. by the worde creating that the Emperour chose Leo yt is but an abusing of the reader For Platina in the next chapter sauing one vvhere he speaketh of Leos election declareth that that creation vvas nothing els but a confirmacion of the election made by the people and clergie Therfore I saide the Emperours permitted the elections vnto the churches because by powre and violence they might haue taken them from them vvherfore yt followethe not that he mighte withowt breache off Gods lawe take them from the churche When yt is saide in the stories that the Emperous permitted vnto the churches the exercise off their religion maie yt therby be concluded that it was at their pleasure to haue without offence of God restrained them of that libertie verely I am ashamed to confute vvhich the D. is not ashamed to obiecte Yet the testimonies alledged make no mention of this word permission wherby this aduantage yf yt vvere anie should betaken Yow might easelie haue forgiuen me this fault where the iniurie which I doo is a gainst my selfe For where I might
that he hath taught that Sainct Paule commaundeth that they and in them all bishoppes shoulde onely chuse Wherby are condemned all election by the church as those which haue intruded vppon the bishoppes possession Where he saith that the Adm. dothe coulorably affirme by thes wordes thautoritie is gyuen to the bishopp alone c. that the right off orderinge ministers doth at no hand apperteine vnto the bishopp I would knowe what word there is heere where this coulor is to bee seene aÌ„d what light he is able to giue vs to make yt appeare The other sentence wherwith he woulde proue yt followeth after nether was he come vnto yt Yf he did therfore confute that it is as straunge as iff a man shoulde shutte off and spende his arrowes or euer he come within the reach off his enemie And I thinke there is no example off suche confutation onles he had coupled that place with this and comparinge them together sett vpon them both at ones beside that it is Absurde that where the Adm. heere spake off the election he answereth off admission Here cometh to be considered the A. dealinge in the end off the booke where charged with vnfaithfullnes for that as in this place he would haue in synuated that the Adm. would haue the people chuse onely to proue hym selfe giltles he alledgeth a place of the Adm. wherin yt is said Then the election vvas made by commen consent off the vvhole church To this answer I repâ—lied that it was his ouersight that he tooke the people which is but a parte of the church to be al one with the church which is the whole coÌ„teininge as well gouernours of the church as the people in which replie the D. crieth owte off manifest falsification Why so forsooth because I lefte owte this worde whole that is to saie because I spared hym and kepte backe a peece of his folie and that with disaduantage off that which I pretended to proue For the word church simply set downe doth comprehended as well the gouernours as the people howe much more doth it comprehend them when this worde whole is added And if it were falsely concluded off him against the Adm. that they would haue the ministers to be called allowed and placed off the people because they saide that the election was made by commen consent off the church how much more is yt falsely concluded of thes wordes off the Adm. the election vvas made by consente off the vvhole church Thus appeareth that the D. together with his diuinitie seemeth to haue loste his commen sense yt is time therfore to carie him owte off the schole to some other place iff peraduenture by some sharper discipline he might gather vpp him selfe againe In the same place also vpoÌ„ that I shewed that in proper speach the church and people differed hauing there declared that difference to be in that the church is the whole and the people a parte theroff â–ª this complainer off falsificatioÌ„ saithe that I seeme to seperate the people from the election of the ministers for that I will not haue the worde church in the Adm. comprehend the people which is manifestly againste that I set downe For I precisely reprehended hym for that vppon the worde church vsed off the Admon he woulde haue mainteined his false insinuation againste them that the election should perteine to the people onely consideringe that the word church cited off him was the vvhole and the people one parte and necessarily comprehended vnder it This is not onely falsifyinge but flat facynge Nowe to retourne backe I aske what he needed twife in this diuision in so many and greuous wordes complaine off corrupte dealinge seinge him selfe flatly affirmeth asmuch as I saie of him and otherwise caÌ„ not mainteine his cause The truth is that he absteined then from the wordes electinge and onely bycause he sawe he had nothinge to mainteine them which nowe by my replie he was driuen to put downe or els to forsake his cawse Wherin as he dissenteth from the trwth so he is driuen to haue a newe combat with him selfe in that he heere maketh yt indifferent and at the discretion of the church in tyme of persequution to make elections ether by one or by the multitude which is contrary to that he hath before in thes wordes Lastly in time of persequution when they haue no magistrate they be all equall nether is one bound to obey another by any ciuill lawe none hath cheiff and especiall care ouer the reste as magistrate to compell wherfore yt can not be otherwise then but that such offices should be chosen by common consente Where he alledgeth Zuing. and Bull. owt of place and contrary to the title of his chap. to proue the callinge of certeine by one Apostle because they be Euangelistes vvhich wee haue no vse off and for that I haue shewed that they both are clearly of this Iudgement that the minister owght to be chosen with consent off the church I will not much busie my selfe with this matter But althowgh the Apostles did send thes Euangelistes off their Embassages to knowe howe the churches did and such lyke thinges as required no tariance nor execution off any set ministrie in the churches wherunto they where sent yet that they euer set them to rule any congregation by their priuate autoritie is not to be estemed wheroff this is an apparant reason that Timothe was not set ouer the church off Ephesus by Saint Paule onely seinge that Paule confesseth that he receiued imposition off handes by the eldership Thother also here mentioned beinge Euangelistes it is like the order vsed in one was in thother Nether doo the wordes I lefte the at Creta proue it for he doth not saie that he ordeined him and if he had yet it muste be vnderstanded that he did ordeine him as he had doone in other churches with consente off the church And that this is not my iudgement yt maie appeare by that I haue alledged owt off Caluine and Musculus in the former booke aÌ„d Bez. in this nether could Bull. be thought to haue here such meaniÌ„g as the D. giueth him that the Apostles alone should sett ouer the churches ministers as appeareth by that I haue alledged So that onles he will make Bullinger contrary vnto him selffe thes wordes that Paule and Peter called certeine can not be vnderstanded off placinge them ouer any congregation no further then being cheife in that action they directed the iudgemeÌ„t of the churches there remaineth zuinglius which I meruaile the D. will charge me with seinge he himselffe will not stande to him in the place which he hath alledged For that which he hath lefte owt off Mathias chosen by the vvhole church is directly againste that which he hath in diuers places before affirmed After many vaine wordes againste the replie vnto the places off Timothe as that it is against thauthoritie off learned writers against the whole course off
great triumphes of For the first off the places it appeareth how Chrysost there called Iohn elder of the church of Antioche was chosen bishop of Constantinople by cōmē voice of all both people and clergy and how he had his election ratified by the Emperour Arcadius For the seuēth booke yt appeareth that Chrysanthus was chosen bishop off Costantinople by the people And when as Sabbatius because Chrysanthus hid himself and would haue none off the bishopricke gat certeine bishops to ordeine him into yt the story sheweth how the people sowght Chrysanthus owt and put owt Sabbatius diuers other exāples there be which I leaue as I would also haue doon thes if it had not bene to haue shewed the vaine triumphes off the D. And where he saith that there is nothing in those 6. and 7. of Euseb which maketh mentiō of any electiō by the people but in one onely which he goeth about to wipe a way that thow maiest know the D. changeth not his skin I will note them in a word To leaue therfore the election made by reuelation where he saith the election was made by the ministers and pastors yt is manifest that the churches had to doo in the electiōs For in the indorcemēt of the letters wherby an other was appointed at Antioche into Samosatenus roume as well autority off the churches is pretended as off the bishops elders and deacons Where also he would clude the other place firste because it was a miracle then for that by the word brethren it is not certeine whether the people were noted for the first yt may appeare how vaine yt is seing the story saith the brethren came together to chuse a bishop The miracle therfore which came vnloked for off them and after they were assembled was to direct them in their election and not to authorise them to chuse For autority they had before els they would not haue come together for that purpose As for the other it is a boldnes too insufferable withowt shewing any one exāple and contrary both vnto the phrase off the scripture and aucient fathers shewed in my former booke and off Eusebius him self as may appeare diuers times in some one chapter In all thes sentences set downe owte of Euseb there is not a worde for the D. nor againste vs The D. cōsesseth that Origine tawght beinge a laie man in the church publikely he can not denie if he woulde but that he tawght by the appointment off bishoppes Thes two beinge put what followeth but that in those daies he was counted a laie man which toke vppon him the ministerie vppon the bishoppes appoinctinge onelye And that he abuse not his reader with such rouinge treatises my reson I will set downe in a fewe wordes That appointement vnto the ministrie which was thowght not to inhable to be minister was thowght insufficient but the appointement off the bishops onely was thowght not to inhable to be minister for Origene that had that appoinctement and authoritie vvas still coumpted a laie man therfore that authoritie onely was then thowght insufficient Eusebius therfore giuinge me this houlde which the D. is driuen vvhether he will or no to confesse ▪ there is wherwith to vpholde that I haue saide For if the bishops appointment off Origine to preach did not gyue him any degree in the ministrie for what cawse did it not except yt be it at I haue assigned his trāslatiō of Euse words whē he was yet not ordeined minister wherin another point off this matter standeth is not warrāted For by this means he must take one of his wordes which properly signifieth the choise by lifting vp and vsed sometimes of eccesiasticall writers for laying on of hands for a degree which hathe no example Likewise he must take the other vvhich I haue shewed to signifie the company of all the gouernours off the church for the office off one onely elder which wanteth proofe Beside that Muscul which translateth yt semeth to haue folowed the sence I haue where if he had folowed the D. he would haue doone otherwise For in steed of he had not appoinctmēt of the eldership he would haue saied the degree of an elder Where he alledgeth that Demetrius suffred hym to teach at Alexandria when he was a laie man belike therby to proue that the reprehension of Demetrius was not to be regarded which did himselfe that he found faulte with in other yt maketh nothinge to this question For yt is enowghe to that in hande that yt is confessed bothe by Demetrius and Eusebius Which taketh the defense off those whom Demetrius rebuked that Origene was a laie man althowghe appoincted to the preachinge off the vvorde by the Bishops Whether yt be lawfull for a laie man to teache the worde off God in publike place is an other question The nexte sect I leaue to the iudgmente of the reader Of this greate heape which foloweth the moste parte haue bene broughte before some foure times at the leaste they haue bene thresshed and there is no yelde it shal be seen that the rest are no better then their fellowes the places off scripture alledged heere are all answered sauing onely that of the Actes 13. which is borrowed of Hosius who vseth this place againste the choise by the church For answer wherunto I saie that it is nor question there off such election as wee spake off that beinge the election off God and not off the church I for my parte rather thinke that it was the voice off God by the Prophetes or one off the prophetes and for proofe alledge the storie in the Crome which may be cōmētary to this For as the church thē in distresse by publike praier and faste receiued comforte throwghe a Prophet whom the Lorde sodenly in the myddeste off the congregation raised amongeste them euen so the church off Antioche beinge in great distresse and feare off ruine off the church off God partly by the sworde and famine partly by contentions and serchinge remedy by puhlike praier and faste receiued by a Prophet which the lord stirred vpp amongeste them this oracle wherby he shewed them a singular meanes not onely to mainteine but to amplifie the borders off the kingdome off Christe If the S. will not receiue this interpretation but take the holy gost to haue sounded immediatly from heauen yet it helpeth him nothing there was no place lefte for any election but needes muste Paule and Bar. besent Iff therfore the bishop haue the spirite off prophecie at any time wherby he may haue such a certeine and vnfallible direction as this was wee will les sticke with him for his sole election Iff not yt is in vaine to alledge this example sauinge that it maketh much againste him For if the lorde woulde haue the approbation off the whole companie of Doctors and elders in that election vvhich him selfe had made and vvhere there was no daunger off error howe
magistrate and ecclesiasticall person which is taken for graunted where yt owghte to be proued for all thowghe he saie I maie see it yet he sheweth forth no lighte off reason to make me see yt by as for that he alledgeth that in some places he is called Dominus which hath but small lordship I haue answered yt in another place where I shew that lord with vs can not be so taken vnles he meane a Christmas lord our lorde off misrule Nowe both the propositions standing the conclusion is moste treue When as also the tytle off Grace is gyuen to ecclesiasticall persons which is gyuen vnto the prince and doth not agree vnto any vnder the degree off a Duke the nexte vnto the prince I vvoulde gladly know vvhat difference there is betwene the titles off ecclesiasticall persons and the ciuill magistrate so great that he muste needes be very blind which doth not see yt And where the D. saithe that ecclesiasticall persons may shewe forthe the countenance of their degree he nether sheweth what that is and muste be belieued off his bare worde for there is no profe at all But off the pompe in other thinges there shall be God willing spoken off afterward Wheer the D. saith yt is the poincte off a Sophister to striue for names off thynges where there is agreement off the matter vnto the reasons and examples I alledged to proue that the very bare vse off certeine names is vnlawfull althowgh the thinges noted by them be not he answereth not a worde And if those exaÌ„ples be not stronge enowgh to obteine that at his handes I would knowe of him which maketh so smal accounte off names vvhether a man which confesseth him selfe mortall may be called by the name of Iehouah c. The answer to the first propositioÌ„ is insufficient I could take exceptions to the examples here aliedged as that thes wordes I haue said yovv are Gods are not gyuen vnto magistrates that they should be saluted by the name off God or that one king should be called the God of England another the god off France vvhich vvere not tollerable and approching to the pride off Antiochus but to this end that the autoritie vvhich they exercise according vnto God might be acknowledged in them yet I answer generally that those speaches be therfore lawfull because the Lorde in his scripture hath communicated them vvith men vvherfore if the D. vvill proue that the tytle off archbishop proper vnto our Sauiour Christe may be imparted vnto a mortall man he muste shewe that as the name off God light off the vvorld c. is gyuen vnto men in the scripture so is also the name of Archbishope vvhich vvhen he shall neuer doo yt ys in vaine to pretend thes examples For as yt had bene an intollerable arrogancie for any man to haue ether taken or gyuen the autoritie off God vnto the sonnes off Adam onles he him self had so honored them so is yt full off presumption ether to gyue or take this so highe a name vvhich being the seuerall off our Sauiour Christ was neuer by no vvorde off his laide owte in commen vnto any symple man vvhatsoeuer The D. answer vnto the second proposition by distinction the ignorance vvheroff he doth so often times reproche me vvith is full of disorder and hath nothing sound first yt faulteth in that yt rendeth a sunder thinges vvhich can not be seperated and that two waies one in separating the gouernement of the church by pastors doctors c. from the spirituall For vvhen the ecclesiasticall ministrie hath respecte to the sowle and conscience when yt is called the mynisterie off the spirite spirituall when they which 〈◊〉 yt are called mynisters in the kingdom off heaueâ—â— when the owtward preaching excommunication and other discipline which they vse be spirituall this seperation off the owtward gouernement off the church from the spirituall and making off them opposite members doth not distinguishe but destroie the gouernement off Christe Thother is that where our Sauiour Christ gouerneth his church spiritually both with his spirite and word he placeth his sprituall gouernement onely in that he toucheth the heartes off his electe by his spirite And where our Sau. Christe vseth the externall ministerie off men not onely in distribution off his word but also off his spirite the D. maketh thexternall ministrie to serue onely for the dispensation off the word and not off the spirite wheras he owghte to haue considered that as Christ him selfe sitting in heauen nowe teacheth by the mouth of the ministrie so he giueth also his spirite by the same ministrie in which respecte yt is called the ministrie off the spirite Seing therfore the externall gouernement off Christ in his church is spirituall and euen that inward towch off the spirite of God is not ordinarily but by the subordinate ministeries which God hath appoincted in his church yt is manifest that that distinction that Christ hath no subordinate pastors vnderneath him in the spirituall gouernement is false And if no man should touche yt the D. hath gyuen it the fall him selfe For where he saith Christ in the spirituall regiment is the onely Pastor by and by he saith he is the onely archbishop in spirituall gouernement Which if yt be true then hath he also in the spirituall gouernement other bishops vnderneath him for he can not be saide arche or cheife bishop but in respecte off other bishops vnder him And if this distinction were not false yet is it here idle and owt off place for S. Peter owt off whom I cited this testymony appropriateth to our S. Christ the name of archbishop in respecte off the externall regimeÌ„t that is to say in respecte that euery bishop had a particular charge of ministrie vnderneath him And where the D. faith there are other archbishops beside Christe in the externall gouernement seing he can not denie but the autoritie off Christ in euery prouince is greater then off his Archbishop I would gledly know off hym when he hath gyuen the name off Archbishop to another what name he leaueth vnto our Sauiour Christ wherby that exellencie and preheminence off autoritie may be noted if yt fall owt that there is no name aboue an archbishop I see not how he must not be constrained to confesse that that name is excessiue which being the greatest that can be in ecclesiasticall gouernement is giuen to him that hath not greatest autoritie The other faulte of this distinction is that yt confoundeth and shuffleth together the autoritie of our Sauiour Christ as he is the sonne off God onely before all worldes coequall with his father vvith that vvhich he hath gyuen off his father and vvhich he exerciseth in respecte he is mediator betwene God and vs For in the gouernement off the church and superiorytie ouer the officers off it our Sauiour Christ himselfe hath a superior vvhich is his father but in the gouernement off kingdomes and other
gathering and keping off his church Thes groundes laied yt is to be considered whether the exercise off the sworde by the magistrate come from our Sauiour Christe preseruer off man kinde wherin he is coequal to his father or as mediatour off his church wherin he is inferiour Where forasmuche as our Sauiour Christes kingdome was not of this world and that against horrible disorders in his church punishable by the sworde he did not one extraordinary whipping excepted draw yt and considering that this lawfull ordinance off God is not onely in the churche but withowt yt is manifest that our Sauiour Christ in respecte off his mediatourship towardes vs exerciseth not the cyuill sword For in that he said his kingdome was not off this worlde he made an opposition not vnto the wicked off the worlde as other some times but vnto Cesars autoritie which was the ordinance of God wherto he was falsly charged to haue made claime And in that he drewe not the sword againste opē disorders it argueth that that was without the compas off his vocation otherwise he would neuer haue suffred the glory of God to haue bene troden vnder feet And in that the autoritie off the sword in heathen princes althowgh not a like vsed is the same ordinance off God that in Christian th one proceding off God immediatly and not from our Gauiour Christ as mediatour thother doth likewise But why should wee wrastle further in this poincte with Andrue seing the D. which buildeth of his autoritie in cōfessing that the magistrate is ordeined off God immediatly standeth with vs that he ys not ordeined off our Sauiour Christe in respect that he is mediatour betwene God and vs heruppon followeth that the office off the cyuill magistrate is properly one off those means which serueth the Lordes prouidence in the preseruation off man kind Now yf the cyuill magistrate should be the head off the church he must be an vnder and subordinat head off Christ Consydering that the lorde hath committed the gouernement off the church vnto our Sauiour Christe and that otherwise there should be two heades off yt wheroff one were not vnder another which is absurd But he is not an vnder and subordinate head off Christe consydering that his autoritie cometh from God symply and immediatly euen as our Sauiour Christes and therfore not the head off the church To this disputation perteineth that which the D. els where in synuateth off the Magistrate comprised albeit not expressed in the 12. 1. Corinth vnder the word gouernementes but in an other treatise more plainly in the fyrst place to hale in the Archbishop in the second to thrust out the elders which notwithstanding is easely refuted by the same place for if the cyuill magistrate shoulde be comprehēded vnder that worde off gouernement and be one off the officers off the church there mencioned yt should followe that he should be an vnder officer not onely to the Apostles but also to Prophetes and Doctors For S. Paule putteth thes as the principallest mynisteries in the church as the degres off first second and third declare But I thincke the D. will not make him vnder officer to all thes therfore he is not cōprehended vnder that diuision but is of an other sorte off officers Secondly yt should follow that Christian magistrates were in that tyme yt being graunted that the offices there reckned were already in the church But the D. saith that there were then no Christian magistrates yt foloweth therfore by his owne wordes that the magistrate could nether be expressed nor conteined in those wordes yf yt be said that althowgh the D. say there were none yet I and the trwth yt selfe saie otherwise I answer that all the gyftes and offices there reckned were not onely then but were then most plentifull Considering therfore that the Christian magistrate was then a gifte more rare then at other times after yt can not be that he is comprehended vnder that wordes Vppon all which yt falleth that the Magistrate is head off the church as Andreas saith in respect off that he exerciseth the sword Likewise it goeth to ground which the D. putteth that by the same reason the magistrate is head off the commē wealth next vnder God he may be also head off the church Which is a grosse peticion of the principle being nothing but the contrarie off that I set downe That owte off Chrysostome that certeine weomen were head off the churche off Philippos will not serue considering that he speaketh not off any cheifdome in powre or autoritie but off excellencie in godlines and zeale And the greek word he vseth signifying also a summe nedeth not to be taken in signification off head but that Chrysost meaninge was that in those weomē there was as it were a summe off the church in whose godly vertues a man might beholde the estate off the whole Nay yt can not but with great violence there signifie a head for then he should haue said they were heades of the church and not head And if it shoulde yet yt muste be vnderstanded that head there is to say the cheife off the weomen off that church which is nothing to purpose for I am sure yt was not Chrysost minde to preferre them to the Bishopes c. The cauill also that the magistrate being but a member off the church is not therby barred from being head is vnworthy answer seing yt is manifest off what members I spake and the Bishop off Salsbury speaketh euen in the same wordes Yf yt be said that the magistrates honour ys touched here I answer that then the Angels them selues are dishonoured which hauing gouernement of kingdomes and nations add also of the churches which they serue haue not nor owght as I haue shewed to haue the title off head off the churche Nay those which goe abowte to gratifie Princes with the spoile off our Sauiour Christe are found dishonorers of them as those which leaue thē no place in the church of Christe for if the magistrate be head of the church of Christe which is within his domyniō thē he is none of yt For all that church maketh the bodie of Christe and euery one of the church fulfilleth the place of one member of the body So that he that is not of the body can haue no place in the church yf yt be further said that he hath iniury considering that he bringeth such singular comforte and profit vnto the church establishing the purenes off religion ouerthrowing the corruptions repressing sinne crowning vertue beside the weight of glory which attendeth for good Princes in the life to come and that they are honoured with most honorable names which owght more then contente the moste excellent seruantes off God which are but symple creatures yt muste be also considered that as the godly magistrate being head of the common wealth bringeth singular commoditie vnto the church so doo the godly pastors which be the church
and high priestes maketh mention off a band off men yt may appeare that as the seruantes and ministers belonged vnto the high Priestes and Scribes so the band belonged vnto those Capitaines off the temple and that they were there as those which had the charge off the band The same may yet appeare further by that where he laying hould off certein off the Apostles put them in prison after they came owt they confirmed them selues against their threates by that the fame thing was happened vnto them which was propheceyed of by Dauid and wheroff our Sauiour had experience in that both Iewes and Gentils and both powers cyuill and ecclesiasticall rose vp against him Wherby it is cleare they had regard to the owtrage which they suffred both off the Priestes and Scribes Iewes and of the Capitain off the temple a Gentill As for the cheif of the Sinagoge they are the same which be called Elders and Ancients off the church in reformed churches wheroff in euery Synagoge and assemblie off the Iewes there was some nombre as shall in place appeare called cheif not for that they had ouer the mynisters but becawse they had the gouernement off the people Whether the Seniors off the people were before the restoring off the captiuitie of Babylon shall appeare in place not to be much materiall Yt is a certein reason which is drawen from the figures to the thinges figured in this sort for if they were not like vnto them they shadow forth they should be no figures I apply not particularly the partes of the Arck to the partes of the church but compare generally the building off the one with the other Which point also S. Stephen and the Apostle to the Hebrues doo likewise presse Therfore thalledging off Caluin against thapplication off euery part thereof vnto the church is ydle The exceptions are to small pourpose For when I ask vvhat I deny not but some thinges might haue bene left for if he had would he might haue knowen that as the Lord aduanced his glory towardes his church and approched vnto men by knowledge of him selff so he did more precisely and particularly set forth all thinges perteining to the church and gouernement therof and that therfore vnder the gospell wherin he hath opened the threasures of knowledge yt must follow that he left thinges more cleare and certein then before Yet I will towch the vanitie off his exceptions For pinnes and nailes I would ask him how he can make a cofer without them especially for the water And therfore if he had prepared bordes c. and not set them together I thinck he had not obeied the voice of god and it is asmuch as if he should say that he was not bidden to take a nedle into his hande which is bidden to sew Whether the windowes were off glasse or Christall made not to pourpose so that they gaue a cleare light which the word Moses vseth signified it was enough Howsoeuer yow were misled by certein expositours the couer mentioned Gen. 8. is cmmaunded in the making off the Ark where the Lord also prescribeth yt should be a cubit aboue the Ark very fit to shut the waters that they should not fall continually vpon the Ark. The ouerseer and maister off this work coulde be no other then Noa at whose prescript yt was to be doon and which was to answer if any thing had bene doon otherwise then the commaundement The Rauen and doue sent forth were not thinges belonging to the building off the Ark and yet as meat and drink they are commaunded him forsomuch as they perteined to preseruation off his life which the Lord had gyuen him in charge That out of Pellicane and againe and againe out off Caluin are such as graunted conclude not against this cawse That the learned writers say God charged the Iewes with ceremonies of his owne that they should haue no leysure to vse any other they neuer vse it to proue that there is more libertie to the churche now then in times past to deuise any thing but it is their buckler which they hold owt against the Papistes who by example of that church would lode this now with such a multitude off ceremonies Therfore hē doth not in this allegorie follow their autoritie but rather clean contrary walketh herin in the Papistes steppes Which where they are pressed by this so diligent prescript off all thinges by the word of God in the ould people answere as the D. that that was doon for the rudenes off that people and because they were but children and that it were iniurie to the church off Christ to shut her vp so short as that was Where he cōcludeth of them that there was onely expressed what should be doon in the worship off God and not in externall policie first there be no such wordes wheruppon he may pull in that and not in the external policie And in deed it is not to distinguish but to pull in peeces for what whorship off God can there be in the assemblies of Christiā mē withowt the ministerie of the word withowt externall policie withowt administration of Sacramentes without praying openly and with owtward sound all vvhich are externall When Caluin calleth yt spirituall worship his meaning is nothingles then to oppose spirituall to all externall doon vvith mouth and other partee of the body but he calleth it spirituall by comparison off the worship of God vnder the law which consisted in corporall washinges cleansinges apparell c. and this is that which ether abuseth him or wherwith he would abuse other And although no singular partes off the Tabernacle or Temple themselues should set forth vnto vs the externall policie of the churches yet whē not onely they be described but yt is prescribed how many kinde of officers there should be and what euery one should doo that might suffise to proue that if he will needes separate the worship off God from thexternall policie yet as the Lord set forth the one so he left nothing vndescribed in the other Towching the alteration made by Salomon and Dauid in sorting the Ministers off the Temple and other thinges an other of the Papistes reasons to proue that they may ordein thinges beside the prescript off the word yt is answered in the same chap. the Ans alledgeth where yt is saied that all that was doon by commaundement of god And in an other place is set forth that those were instituted by commaundement of Dauid which had commaundement off God browght by the handes off Gad the seer and of Nathan the Prophet But seing the Ans vvill not accord vvith me in this point of appointing thinges vnder the law let him at least beare him self speak in his former booke God in the ould law prescribed vnto his people perfect and absolute lawes not onely morall and iudiciall but ceremoniall nether was there the least thing to be doon in the church omitted in the law Let him shew
their vnder bishops The next diuision I will not answer The next vnto that I report me to the reader whether I haue faithfully and allmost seruilely bound my self vnto his wordes in translating thes peeces of his latin pāphlet For the next also I hauing shewed that yow placing the Apostles function in preaching and ministring the Sacramentes not in gouernement and assigning to tharchbishop both Administratiō off the word and Sacramentes and order and discipline must needes lay greater weight vpon tharchbishop then vpon the Apostles yf yow now reuoke yt I am glad Howbeit ashamed to speake it in so many wordes euen yet the course off this treatise doth breath nothing els This is no answer vnto my reason For if the church withowt the Archbishop and Archdeacon be a bodie consisting of all the partes comely knit together wherin nothing wanteth nor nothing is to much then it followeth that thes offices bring nether ornement nor accomplishement to the church but make onely an vnprofitable knob and lump off flesh to the both disfuguring and hinderance off the growght off the bodie And the ministrie off order and policie of the church being one part off this bodie if it be not whole and complete but need to be peeced owt with archbishops and Archdeacons it must draw with it this absurditie that there being one member vnperfect withowt them the bodie also off Christ is not perfecte And where it ys saied that as in the Apostles times the church was not perfect withowt them and Prophetes c. so it is not now meaning therby as both before and after hath appeared that tharchbishops should supplie the roume off the Apostles I answer that the Argument holdeth not For considering that the perfection off the bodie must be measured by the will off him whose the bodie is that is Christ as when he gaue Apostles Euangelistes c. he made it appeare that he would not haue his bodie perfect withowt them so when he tooke them away from his church he made it knowen that the bodie was perfect withowt thē Yf Apostles and Euangelistes had bene put downe by autoritie of man then yt might haue helped yow that as men put downe Mynisteries so they might supplie them with other But seing they were taken away by the Lord this yowr reason in effect becawse God taketh away therfore men may administeries hath no strenght in it And where all this drift is that yow vvould haue tharchbishops office come in for the Apostles and therfore say that their autoritie ouer the pastors doth and must remaine in such places as there be churches besides my former answer vnto this point yow are againe taken in the wordes off yowr owne lippes For if it must remaine then the office off the archbishop which yow make the vessell to receiue this autoritie in and whose office yow say consisteth in the rule off other pastors is not variable and depending off circūstance off time c. but perpetuall and constant Yf Bucer speake as yow make him I can by no meanes subscribe vnto him For S. Luke saith plainly that there were many bishops at Ephesus and gyueth the name off bishop to many That the name off bishop did properly remaine in one off them ād improperly in thother if it haue so good autoritie as the former I will belieue that too if not I hould me vnto the wordes off S. Luke And if the name off bishop doth vnproperly belong vnto those whom Saint Paul saith the holy gost had appointed bishops ouer the church I confesse that I can not tell what autoritie is sufficient to make that name off bishop proper vnto them And if the name off bishop did not properly belong vnto them all but vnto one onely yt followeth that the name also of an Elder did not properly belong vnto them For the one of them ys as well verified of them as the other and there is no more restreint off the name off bishop then of an Elder vnto any one singular person amongest them And how is this sentence off Bucer here pulled in by the heare for albeit it were concluded that one bishop should beare dominiō ouer the ministers of one churche yet yt followeth not which is here in question that one also owght to rule ouer all bishops in a prouince The rest is answered In deed I denie but yow affirme that there be still Apostles Prophetes c. ād therfore by yowr saying that order which was then owght now also to be continued And although yowr archbishop vvere vnder gownde yet order in ecclesiasticall mynistries remaineth that the teaching Elders should be a degree aboue those vvhich gouerne onely and they aboue the Deacons The marck I shoot at is certein that is to confute yowr distinction off mynisteries off the word and Sacramentes onely and ministeries off gouernement and order and it seemeth I shot so nigh that I haue driuen yow away from the marck For yow wander and tell vs of thinges that haue nether head nor foot and which if they were true make nether whot nor kold vnto this question For if your learned interpreters haue well defined S. Paules rule the Elders vvhich rule are vvorthy c. when they say yt is to serue Christ and his church faithfully in doctrine and integritie off life c then it must suffice yowr Archbishop to doo so and no more For if yow thinck that euery minister in his church is barred by that definition from further gouernement then which consisteth in preaching administring the Sacramentes vncorrupt life c it followeth that he medling with moe then those breaketh the boundes off good gouernement After yow make an other rode owt off the question bearing the reader in hand that I would conclude owt off that place equalitie off ministers when as my pourpose was as I haue shewed to confute yowr vaine distinction Which although yow here denie yet the print off yowr hand is deeper then yow can wipe owt by thes so strong but litle honest denials For onles yow refer this word onely to the secluding off the ministeries mentioned to the Ephesians from the gouernement and policie off the church yowr answer falleth as is before declared Considering that yow labouring to make a difference betwene those mynisteries and the Archbishops make none if they together with administratiō off the word and Sacramentes handle also order and gouernment And although yow had quite left owt the word onely yet thes wordes the Apostle doth recite those ministeries which are occupied in praier the word and Sacramentes not off them which are instituted for order and discipline haue that sense which I haue gyuen them For if he speake off those which minister the word and Sacramentes not off those instituted for gouernement c. yt followeth that he speaketh off those which minister the word and Sacramentes onely As he that saith a man is iustified by faith and not by worckes saith
that he is iustified by faith onely The bolt shot vppon no occasion towching the papacie off euery pastor in his church and off shaking off the Princes autoritie being that which cometh euery hand while when he hath nought els to say shall be broken in an other place For the two next diuis let the reader iudge off the writinges off both sides My wordes haue light enough to haue kept yow from this wandring but that yow take pleasure in vntruth for beside that the scope off my disputation doth beate yow from that vagarie my wordes are plaine For I say not that euery one that occupieth a mynisterie in the church hath gyftes sufficient for his calling but euery function or mynistrie off the church hath giftes sufficient c. And if yowr vnderstanding be so narrow as yow pretend vnderstād it by examples And becawse our question is of offices necessarie for our times and therfore likewise off the giftes yow may learne that the office off a Pastor is as hath bene shewed a seuerall office from the Doctor because beside the knowledge and dexteritie in teaching the wisdome and discretion in gouerning yt hath also annexed the grace to moue affections ether to the loue of good or hatred off euill Likewise the Doctor frō the Elder becawse beside the gift off gouernement enough for that function there is required as I haue saied abilitie to teach The Deacon from the Elder for that beside faithfulnes and reasonable wisdome which is sufficiēt for the gathering and bestowing of the church money is required with greater wisdome a singular diligence as off him whose charge reacheth vnto the whole where the other perteineth to the poore of the church onely and which is occupied in relieuing the pouerties off the minde where the other is off the bodie This is that I saied euery function hath proper giftes for the execution of it and that forsomuche as now ther is no gift necessarie for the ecclesiasticall ministerie not conteined in thes and that all thes fall into the ordinarie ministerie instituted and specified in the scripture therfore thes ordinatie Ministeries specified in scripture are sufficient And as it is a good reason that there are no moe Sacramentes but baptisme and the supper forsomuch as there is no promesse off life euerlasting not expessed in thes considering that th one sealeth vp and assureth that we are receiued into the howse off God the other that we shall befed in it to life euerlasting euen so thes ministeries are proued to be sufficient becawse all giftes necessarie to good order and conduit off the church are promised vnto them Against this is saied that God tieth not his giftes to a certein nombre off names but bestoweth them where it pleaseth him I spake not off all giftes but of giftes necessarie to gouerne the church with all and those being necessarily tied vnto the offices which haue and owght to haue those names all other church offices are shut forth as those which are ether idle or hurtfull That there are functions necessarie Coriath 12. not mentioned to the Ephesians and againe that the Apostle did not make a perfect diuision in ether off those places is onely to trifle owt the tyme forsomuch as I added expressely that I grounded my reason off both places ioyntly besides that it is vntrue that Deacons and widowes are left owt to the Corinth being conteined in the word helpes Moreouer this is the third contrary sentence which he hath gyuen off Corin. 12. for in the latin booke he proueth that there is no perfect diuision there in this he goeth abowt to proue by reason and autoritie that it is pecfect here he saith it is not perfect Such force hath the truth that yt maketh them all guiddy and turnesick that wrestle against it not perfect perfect not perfect so that the very Camelion it self could neuer so soudenly and into so contrary coulors change it self Against his exception that there are reckened vp in those places offices which endured for a time I graunt there were so but those ceassing as hath bene shewed their proper giftes also be gone with them Where he addeth that he could tell me that the church hath autoritie to appoint names and offices yt is that in questiō which he often saith but neuer proueth Towching Readers it is answered as for Catechistes they are to be discussed after The argument which yow say is too bad for a boy is as good as I can make any I will leaue it to the iudgement of all which haue skill how yow vncouer yowr self in yowr exceptions against it For to omit that I haue said and leaue to be iudged of argumentes good of particulers my first propositiō is vniuersall if this be the seruant that knovveth his maisters vvill and doth it not shall be beaten vvith many stripes and this they that doo the vvill of my father vvhich is in heauen shall enter into the kingdome off heauen he that is not vvith me is against me those vvhich goe after other gods shall lose their good and an infimite nomber moe to be seen both in holy and prophane writers But as the ruder sort know not the King onles he haue his crowne vpō his head so the D. hath no marck to know a generall proposition by onles it haue this word All vppon the head of it Likewise where he saith this worde onely is not to be founde in the seconde proposition He shoulde haue vnderstanded that it is a parte off the principall extremes and therfore coulde not enter there It ys his greate wante that he can not knowe one terme from another onles they stande in their naturall order for becawse he saw not thes wordes onely are sufficiente in the naturall place off the extreme as one that had no marke to discerne the master from the man but by going before and behinde he takethe one for another When S. Iohn saithe in the beginning vvas the vvorde and by and by after God vvas that vvorde with many such examples both in holie and prophane writ those that haue but a litle iudgement can tell that althowgh he chaunged the naturall order yet those are still the fyrste partes which are put in the later place and that it ys asmuch as if he had said The vvorde vvas in the beginning and the vorde vvas god This is therfore the argumente which in the Ans sight hath no manner off forme Those functions which haue all giftes needefull ether for the ministring off the worde and Sacramentes or for the gouernemente off the churche onely are sufficient the functions reckened vp off Saint Paul in bothe the places to the Ephes and Corinth haue all giftes needefull ether for ministring off the word and Sacramentes or for gouernement of the churche therfore those functions onely are sufficient Let the reader therfore iudge whether this argument be like vnto thes sweepinges that he hath matched it with That
away the infamy of this nether can it of that and if the auncieÌ„t traditioÌ„ of the church doo not autorise the one nether can auncieÌ„t coustome autorise the other The Ans before for one onely error touching rebaptising casteth away the vvhole councell of Carthage I will not deale so rowghly with the councell off Nice onely I desire that their autoritie be lifted vp no higher then yt hath state off the vvord off god Howbeit it must not be let goo in this canon off Nice vvhich is the ouerthrowe of all that the Ans hath said before that saying this vvas oulde coustome it confesseth therby that it vvas no ordinance of God vvheras if it came from S. Peter Paule c. they vvould haue said according to the institution off the Apostles it is also vvorthy to be obserued that the iurisdiction the Metrapolitanès had in their prouinces was before onely voluntary and vncoÌ„strained for that this was the firste time that any lawe passed of yt which noted off me in an other place is here well confirmed so that thes wordes the old coustome which the D. putteth so great affaince in if he make his accoÌ„pts well shall be found to haue bene a reed of Egypte vnto him wherupon he leaning is not staied but pricked To proue that the name off archbishop was not before the councell off Nice nor within three hundred yeares after the ascension off our Sauiour I shewe that there is no mention off him in Theophilus Ignatius Clemens Alexandrinus Iustine Martyr Ireneus Tertullian Origine Cyprian in the histories owt off which Eusebius gathereth his storie nor in Eusebius nor in a word in no alowed writer nether greeke nor latin within that space The D. asketh whether the councell off Nice Antioche Epiphanius c. be not as good all which are bothe later writers then those I alledged and after the 300. years before assigned So that to proue the antiquitie off the name off Archbishop and Metrapolitane he saith in effect yt is all one to alledge the stories and writers which came after as those which wente before and to proue that thes names were with in 300. yeares after Christ he alledgeth stories and other writers which testyfie thes titles to haue bene after 300. yeares which how absurde yt ys all men vnderstand And what likelihoode off trwth yt hath that thes names were within 300. yeares and od when as not one onely writer hauing so often occasion to speake off them doth once name them it may be considered partly of that the bishop writeth For as he asked Harding vvas there no man in the vvorld for the space off 600. yeares hable to expresse the name off vniuersall bishop So I aske the D. was there none in the world by the space off 300. yeares and od hable to expresse the metrapolitans name no man for the space almost of 400. yeares hable to expresse the archbishops name partly also I leaue yt to be considered off that I haue saied before Then he must vnderstand that as those stories and writers he alledgeth make nothing to proue that antiquitie which he supposeth so they being further from the Apostles times and nearer vnto the time off Antichrist are not off so good credit to proue the lawfullnes off that ether office or name as if they had had testimonie of the purer times moreouer off thes sixe autors which he maketh mention off two wroote after 400. yeares all the rest wrote from abowte 350. yeares vnto the prick off 400. And althowgh he hath browght owt so smale a number yet he must be faine to cut off halfe off them as those which make no mencion off the archbishop for nether Chrysostome nor Ierome no not Ambrose as shall appeare in their so great workes make any mencion off him Where I shewed that as the cedâ—â— off Liban can not be hydden amongeste the Box trees so the archbishop coulde not haue bene hydden in the ancient vvritinges amongest the other Mynisters and further that if he vvere he vvas contemned off them vvhich once vvoulde not defyle their pen by vvriting off him the Answ as thowghe thes perteined not to the matter vnder coulor of calling them frumpes passeth by them wheras a few such frumpes vvill breake the archbishops backe if they be not better looked vnto The Ans can neuer be holden in the railes off any lawfull forme off disputacion All men see that vvhatsoeuer he heapeth vp toucheth not my reply For he owght to improue the signification vvhich I haue set downe off the word Metrapolitan bishop which is to be nothing els then bishop of that cytie vvhich yt pleaseth the Emperour or Prince to make cheife and therfore that â—f the office swell no more then the name there is great differeÌ„ce betwene his and tharchbishops name This becawse he could not doo the signification being so cleare he starteth a syde and goeth abowte to proue that Metropolitane and Archbishop are taken for the same when the question is not here how they are taken but what the wordes signifie If he had shewed that the word metrapolitane bishop is as loftie in signification as the word archbishop then he had spoken to the pourpose Beside this in a matter that is in controuersie amongest writers he maketh his profes by bare autorities the controuersie being not onely betwene the Ciuiliâ—â—s and Canonistes but also betwene others off our tyme. Likewise it is to be obserued how cuill he hath peeced thes together bringing in M Caluin contrary vnto Maister Fox in that the one maketh a Metrapolitane and Archbishop to differ from a Patriarck the other maketh them all one M. Fox also to differ from himselfe which in the second place alledged out off him maketh difference betwene a metrapolitane and primate in the third maketh them all one Beside that also he is beside the forowgh off his cawse he gaineth not that vvhich he goeth abowght For let vs admit that a metrapolitane and Archbishop are taken for the same yet therof foloweth not that the name off an archbishop was in the church as soone as the name of Metrapolitane For althowgh a Prophet and a seer be all one astranger and an ennemie in war betokened one thing yet nether haue the wordes the same signification nether were they all at one time but came one after another For I would gladly know whether yt seeme vnto him that all thes titles Metrapolitane Archbishop Primat and Patriarch came in at a clap if there be no likehoode in this yt foloweth that his autors meaning is not that thes names were all at the councell off Nice but after they crepte into the church were attributed vnto one and the same office off metrapolitanship specified in that councell For the autoritie ouer other bishops which is gone abowte by this Nicene councell to be proued like to that of our archbishops that I make not vvith the Answ a confusion off all
of an Archbishop prouoked by me you can not shew off his allowance And yet becawse yow put me in remembrance off the story vvitnes wheÌ„ I considered that nether the reste of his writinges nor other writers off the same auncientie and quarters as Ierome and Augustine mention an Archbishop yt made me suspecte greatly that there was corruption in that place After seing howe proudly and swellingly he speaketh off bishops and howe basely off kinges saying the bishops are gold and kinges in comparison off them but lead and kinges muste put their nekes vnder the knees of the bishops and kisse their right haÌ„d which speaches are â—aâ— vnlike Ambrose stile of kinges considering also that Erasm nippeth that booke in the head I assure my selfe that yt is a false Ambrose aÌ„d therfore that testimonie to be of no force Wherin I am yet further coÌ„firmed by Ambrose owne testimonie who saying it is comely that there should be equalitie in the churches which taketh away bishops dominion For seing that can not be vnderstanded off the whole companie of the church yt is manifest that it muste be restreined vnto the mynisters theroff and sauing this aduantage I answer to the next diuis that yt shall appeare after how straunge the name off the Archbishop vvas at that time For that alledged out off the Centuries Ambrose was Metrapolitane off diuers churches ioined together besydes that yow take that for graunted which is in coÌ„trouersy that is to say that the name of Metrapolitane and Archbishop be all one yow owghte to haue shewed the reasons vvherby they say so For seing they haue not that they vvrote by reuelation in a matter of controuersie they owghte no further to be belieued then they shew reason Otherwise I can oppose also autoritie which saith in plaine wordes Ambrose vvas a bishop not of a vvhole prouince or of many cyties but off one onely citie whose testomony yet is so muche more off credyt then that off the Centuries as by a neerer sighte into Ambros workes which he reuewed he was better able to giue iudgement in this matter then they vvhich occupied in reading off so many could not performe that diligente in all vvhich he in that autor he especially laboured in That I said of the Archbishop if any vvere ruling the action wherin the bishops vvere ordeined and after the action ended hauing no more autoritie theÌ„ the reste is vnconfuted by any writer yow alledge Caluin the ignorance of whose writinges with all otther yow obiecte vnto me doth not onely not speake against yt but saith in some respect more then I. For I speake this onely of the Archbishop alledged owt of the counterfaict Ambrose but he as I haue shewed saieth generally of those auncient times that the office off the Archbishop vvas rarely vsed And that I said not as yow vse withow reason but vvith those reasons which yow lifting at can not moue For vvhere I shewed yt not hke that one Archbishop ordeined bishops but other bishops with him vvhose voices he gathered the auncient councells expresly forbidding that yow say yow shewed yt not straunge at that time for a bishop alone to ordeine ministers Which thing howe vntrue yt is I refer my selfe to that before said And if yow had shewed yt yet yow making difference betweene a minister and a bishop in prouing that one bishop onely ordeined mynisters haue not proued that one bishop ordeined bishops And in saying that Ambrose is to be vnderstanded of that done by all bishops in all places yow make them all gilty off breach off canons off the generall councells in that behalfe Which how vntrwe yt is may likewise appeare by that before said Then how vaine is yt that for that the people had to doo in the bishops election one bishop alone withowt other his fellowes did ordeine After he asketh VVhere is nowe my distinction of election and ordination Firste I declared that they being for the moste parte distinguished are sometime taken for one Secondly I haue vttered no word wherby it is once towched Thirdly yf I had taken yt away yet he same toucheth not this matter as he saith but nether sheweth nor can shew how onely hauing nothing to answer he speaketh in the clowdes where he is so far from being vnderstood of others that I thinke he vnderstood not him selfe His answer Ambrose mente not off the Archbishop in the prouince where him selfe was bishop is firste vpholden by flatte begging of diuers thinges in controuersie as whether an archbishop and metrapolitan be all one whether Ambrose were metrapolitane and whether being he had autoritie him selfe to forbid such disorders Secondly that he alledgeth to remoue yt from Ambroses prouince maketh rather against him For if that corruption he complained of were in all places then it was in his prouince also Where he saith I am deceiued that I thincke he wrote his booke for his owne diocese onely my wordes importe no such thing yt is enowghe for me yf in the prouince where he was this corruptioÌ„ had place the further he will strech those wordes the depelier he woundeth the gouernement off the archbishop But this is more then dutie vnto that counterfaicte Ambrose What truth this deuise hath I am coÌ„tent yt be iudged of the reasons before alledged my quotacion off the Centuries was easie to find if yow had not helpe of the table the time yt selfe would quickly haue directed yow yt is in the beginÌ„ing of the chapter which yow alledged so that if yow had red any more then serued for yowr tourne yow should haue found how he affirming that in those daies there were but three principall degrees off the â—lergie bishop elder and deacon alledgeth for profe Ambrose The name off Archbishop owte off Sozomen maketh not againste this considering that he writing abowte the yeare 430. calleth Simeon Archbishop according to the time wherin he vvrote and not vvherin Simion liued Nether doth the place off Epiphanius alledged after owte of the Centuries make againste this For albeit the name of Archbishop was in his time vvhich liued ether in Ambroses time or somewhat before yet there is no likelihoode that it was then receiued in the latin churches seing none off their writers of those times once make mention off that name And it is certein that it being a greeke name was firste receiued in the greeke churches and Easte partes or euer it came into the latin and weaste Nowe for this great shewe the A. bringeth into the stage they are scarce worth the looking on they shall haue therfore a shorte answer their autoritie shall be coÌ„sidered after being here altogether owte off place and contrary to the litle off his chapter and according to the oulde coustome off repetitions propounded after I here therfore deale onely with the names And firste for that off Metrapolitan yt is shewed that it is not the same in signification with the Archbishops yt
much a minister bestowethe in a vocation which is not his so muche he leaueth his owne and therby manifest that in altering the wordes I kepte the sense And so yt still fallethowte that my falsifying which the Answ penne doothe so willingly runne vpon is nether with any aduantage to my cause nor disaduantage vnto his The two nexte sections I let passe as hauing no matter off answer What attendance the prelatship off the Garter requireth and what absence from a Bishops charge being a thinge in the knowledge off all I leaue whether he hathe manifestly peruerted the wordes off the Admonition which here he denieth the bookes off bothe sydes are vvitnes His slaunders first we take a waie the princes authoritie ouer ecclesiasticall persons then we woulde giue to vnderstande that he maketh yt in her maiestyes power to minister the worde and Sacramentes still confirme his shameles impudencie of the one there is no syllable that can be pulled that waies The wordes of which he would vvreste the other be yt is not lavvfull to take those vvhich god hathe appointed to the mynistry to applie to other vses there mentioned Which because yt falleth into the question off residence before handled and into that bearing cyuill office by the Ecclesiasticall person herafter God willing to be disputed the resolution ys to be taken from those places Where in the laste dyuision he calleth vppon my answer to the tytles off Lordes grace c. beside that he hathe nothing but bare sayinges withowte shewinge forthe any matter he hathe answer Thus after large promises off shewing the greate antiquitie off thes names that they were not onely in the Councell off Nice but are manifestly to be founde in all stories and writers before the councell off Nice after highe wordes againste those which denie the pretended antiquitie after rifling and ruffling vp euerie darcke corner where thes greate and glorious names might be hidden after hell yt self hath bene moued and sommoned to witnes of this antiquitie yt is manifest that thes names nor no one of them hathe hetherto bene shewed in any one Councell writer or storie before the Councell of Nice and then onely the name Metropolitane which by the Answ owne account was abowt the yeare 330. yt ys manifest also that the names Archbishop archdeacon Primate c. be not shewed owte off any ether Councell storie c. before Epiphanius time vvhich vvas aboute the yeare 380. and so manifeste that thes names being not founde in moste aunciente monumentes could not haue their allowance what approbacion they haue had sythens they came into the church I leaue yt to be estemed partly off that which hathe bene and partly off that which shall be God willing alledged â–ª being bent as well against the office as name off archbishop Which I therfore forbeare to set downe here leste I shoulde be compelled to repeate them againe Caput 3 Diuis 1. THat the reader maie haue clearer light to iudge of our writinges on both sydes in the rest off this controuersie and that we may be better furnished of weapons againste this greate leuie off pretended autorities two questions seeme necessarie to be decided before we come vnto them The one whether the worde off God hathe ordeined that in euery seuerall congreation there shoulde be a bishop which the Answ dothe flatly denie and further saith yt appeareth owte off certeine ecclesiasticall writers and the exampels off Timothe and Titus that the Apostels appointed bishops onely in principal townes and cities The other is whether there were allowed in one citie 2. or moe bishops which likewise he flatly denieth can be shewed to haue bene from Christâ—â— time and that the whole practise off the prymitiue churche is againste yt Yf thes thinges be shewed to haue bene ordeined off the Apostels yt muste folowe that this institution off God banished by Satan owght to be called home an that all autoritie off men and coustome exalted againste this must yealde theÌ„ selues prisoners Likewise if these be shewed the trwthe of expositioÌ„ of the testimonies of the moste aunciente writers shall better appeare vvherby we haue shute the bishoplike autoritie in the circuite aÌ„d roundell of one church which the Ans would haue extended vnto a realme or diocese And so shall come to pas that they which hauing all their senses possessed of the coustome of thes later and corrupter times when they reade or heare off a bishop in the scripture or in the moste auncieÌ„te writers conceiue forthwith a bishop of the same mould that ours be shall a greate deale easelier correcte their error For if a bishop in the Apostels time and off their institution was the bishop off one churche onelie by all likelihood those times which folowed nexte after them kepte them neerest vnto that image whervpon will fall owte that this vsurped autoritie of bishops ouer their fellow ministers did by litle and litle encrease according to the measure of time further from that wherin thapostels liued and nearer vnto that wherin Antichrist was fully setled which thinges although they haue light enough in them selues yet to cleare this matter better there shall be God willing set downe certein testimonies of the most auncient times wherby as by certein traces the truth off thes thinges may be easelier found owt The first that euery particular church should haue her bishhop is manifest by Paul to Timothe For seing the description of a bishop which he gyueth doth agree vnto the minister of euery congregacion and nothing there required in the one which is not in the other it followeth that the minister off euery congregacion is the bishop theroff For the description agreing with euery of them the thinges described must likewise Secondly onles he doo by this description off the bishop set forth the nature off euery minister of the word in his congregation in describing the offices off the churche he hath left owt the principalest membres and was more carefull in describing the Deacons ministerie not occupied in the vvord then the preaching ministeries but that is absurd yt must follow that he vnderstood them by the name off bishop Furthermore S. Paules bishop was appointed to the same place wherunto his Deacons but his Deacons were assigned to a particular congregation as appeareth both by the vse of the scriptures aÌ„d also by that after this corruption entred that euery church had not her bishop yet it had her Deacons as is to be seen by that alledged of the Deacons off the churches off Mariotes S. Paul also there assigning the charge and care of the bishop ouer the church of God must ether gyue him charge ouer the whole bodie of the catholike church or ouer one particular congregation or of the faithfull companie of one howse but he extendeth not his charge ouer all the Catholike church for that were to make a Pope not a bishop nor restraineth him to the faithfull of one
but vpon gainsaying And in that Boniface which wrote vnto Zachary had appointed those three bishops in small parishes and townes all vnderstand that yt was no new thing then to haue bishops in such places But because he closethe his eyes and will not see thinges set before him at leaste let him grope them The false Damasus and verie Antichriste writing of this matter inueiethe vehemently againste the appointinge off Bishops in villages which he calleth countrey bishops And yt appeareth plainly in that Epistle that they had the selfe same autoritie in all thinges which citie Bishops had There he saith also that yt was forbidden that there shoulde be any bishop ether in small cytie or in village or Castell leste the name and autoritie of a bishop should waxe vile And therfore commaundeth that those bishops off villages being disgraded off their Bishoprickes shoulde be throwne downe to the order off preisthoode Heere the D. maie vnderstande that euen in the time off Antichriste this order off euerie churche hauing her bishop was not so abolished but that there were remnantes off it in diuers places and some which mainteined the libertie wherin God had sed them againste that owtrage off Satan who becawse he woulde make off bishops yong Princes and saw that euerie parishe was not hable to mainteine that pompe wente abowte with robberie off the reste to lifte vp the heade off one Heroff yt may be seene what cawse the D. hathe to charge me with the falsifiyng of the Popes wordes and how his habilite to defende the Popes decree doothe not answer his desire As for the reasons I browght to proue that the placingâ— off bishops in villages and small cyties coulde no more bringe them in contempte then the shininge of the sonne or falling off the raine in villages as vvell as in cyties breedeth contempte off those benefites or the name or autoritie of father gyuen to poore men as vvell as riche maketh that ordinance off God nothing set by he answereth not a worde Where I further alledged the foresight and wisdome of God which shoulde receiue a greate wound if in instituting for euery churche a Bishop he shoulde not haue foreseen this inconuenience which the Ans vppon the Popes autoritie meinteineth he askethe when and where I haue I truste shewed him now bothe althowghe he if he had ether vnderstoode or remembred what he wrote before twise or thrise when with Ierome he propoundeth vnto vs that Bishop and elder were all one by Gods worde he should not haue falleÌ„ into this extreme boldenes of denying euery thing which is enemie vnto his vnaduised assertions For yf yt be the institution off God that euerie churche shoulde haue a teaching elder and that elder according to Ieromes saying alowed off him were a bishop yt muste needes folowe that to haue a bishop in euerie churche ys the institution of god And because the D. boweth so casely vnder the autoritie of men that he estemeth it the beste proofe let him vnderstande that this was the iudgemeÌ„t off twoo of the moste famous meÌ„ which our lande browght forth thes manie yeares And the same also executed for the testimonie off the truth off god wheroff one of them amongest other thinges suffred also for this cause nowe in hande a The sixte Article which M. Barnes was condemned for is this I vvill neuer belieue nor can neuer belieue that one man maie by the lavve off God be bishop off tvvoo or three cyties yea off an vvhole contrey for that yt is contrary to the doctrine of S. Paul vvhich vvriting vnto Titus commaundeth that he should ordeine a bishop in euery tovvne prouing that by the worde elder the Apostell meaneth a bishop M. Hooper shewing that one man may not haue two lyuinges addeth but this is clavv me and I vvill clavv the. If the bishops permitted not their priestes to haue 2. benefices it may fortune the priestes vvould likevvise say the bishop should be bishop but of one citie And in deed so it should be and till magistrates bring theÌ„ to that point it shal he as possible to heare a bishop vvade godly and symply thorovvgh the scripture in all case off religioÌ„ as to driue a camell thorovvgh the eie of a nedle A great pitie it is to see hovv far the office off a bishop is degenerated from the originall in the scripture It vvas not so in the beginning vvhen bishops vvere at the best as the Epistle to Tite testifieth that vvilled him to ordeine in euerie citie of Crete a bishop And in case there vvere such loue in them novv as vvas then tovvardes the people they vvould say them selues there vvere more to doo for the best off them in one cytie then he could doo They knovv the primitiue church had no such bishops vntill the time off Siluester the first c. Off thes thinges partly and partly of that which shall be hereafter God willing spoken I leaue yt to be esteemed off the indifferente reader with how small ether knowledge or conscience the D. hathe affirmed that yt can nether be shewed by scripture nor confirmed by anie ecclesiasticall writer or practise off the primitiue churche that ether euery churche shoulde haue her bishop or that there should be bishops in villages and small Cyties Thother off the two questions remaineth whether yt can be shewed by scripture and by examples off the primatiue churche â–ª that there were in one churche moe bishops then one which we might in parte haue bene eased off if the answ hauing fallen owte with the trwth were not likewise falleÌ„ owte with him selfe For he approuing off the testimonie off Ierome which affirmeth elders and Bishops all one and that the elders off a churche chose one amoÌ„geste them which onely kepte the name of bishop dothe withall necessarily affirme that before the time that this ordinance was established there were diuers bishops in one church And in saying the word bishop is not commenly vsed but for him that in degree is aboue the rest he at vnawares confesseth that there were diuers bishops in some churches althowgh not commenly But becawse he hath a facultie in denying and affirming withowte shewing any reason and that his worde is no bonde to tie him with all when yt maketh againste him some thinge also muste be spoken towching this matter And seing I haue shewed that he is by S. Paules determination a Bishop which is apâ—e to teache and to exhorte to conuince false doctrine and reproue corrupte maners and that the Ans can not denie but one suche alwaies is not sufficiente for some churches especially where the commoditie of assemblies is so good that euery daie the worde off good ys to be preached yt can not be denied but that there bothe maie and owght to be moe bishops in a churche muche more in a cytie then one And that this was the institution off God it appearethe by the practise of the churches in
Bishop off the paris hes there which when by common construction yt maye be aswell referred vnto Alexandria onely or vnto the reste off Egypte onely or to bothe together yt was to greate boldnes not onely to gather this sense of Eusebius but also to bringe him in so speaking But that the worde there can not be referred vnto the reste off Aegypte but onely hathe relation vnto the parishes off Alexandria and that as there are no suche wordes as yow ascribe vnto Eusebius so there can be no suche sense as yow Imagin yt may easely and clearly be vnderstanded off that before and after For if nether the bishops of Alexandria before Demetrius nor those after him vnto the times wherin Cyprian and Cornelius liued had that Iurisdiction ouer Egipt which yow Imagin then by all reasonable vnderstanding yt muste be estemed that this worde there owght to be restreined vnto Alexandria Abilius the thirde Bishop off Alexandria after Marke had bene in that churche about the yeare of our Lorde a 100. Eusebius affirmeth to haue bene bishop off the parishe off Alexandria but of the other partes of Egypt maketh no mētion He saith the same off Primus succeding him in that bishoprick off Alexandria the same off Iustus which succeded Primus the same of Eumenes which succeded him the same off an other Marke which succeded him the same of Celadion which succeded him the same off Agrippa whō also he calleth Agripinus which succeded him And where speaking off all the former he saide they vvere bishops off the Parishe off Alexandria off Iuliane which succeded Agripinus he saith he gouerned the churches in or at Alexandria vttering the same thinge by diuers wordes Vnto this Iuliane succeded Demetrius off whom is saide as before hathe bene shewed yea off those which succeded Demetrius as famous and as renoumed as he there is no suche thinge For off receiued the ministerie vvhich vvas at Alexandria likewise of Dionisius which succeded Heracles that he receiued the gouernement of the churches vvhich vvere at Alexandria which Dionysius liued abowte the times off our Cyprian and Cornelius which we haue presently in hande When therfore the Bishops of Alexandria so famous are not red to haue had bishoply autoritie off anie Prouince but are conteined within the circuit off one citie vntill the time off Cyprian and Cornelius yt appeareth not onely that the D. hathe bene abused in thes wordes off Eusebius but that this owght to be an other marke to know that nether Cyprian nor Cornelius had any Bishoplicke autoritie at all further then the cyties wherin their churches were And withall appeareth the cawse why Euseb did no more particularly restreine the bishoprick off Demetrius vnto Alexandria namely for that he had so often spoken before of the precinctes of that bishoprick The next diu hath nothing worth answer being onely that which I in few wordes subscribed vnto Sauing this that Cyprian was Pupianus bishop which maketh nether whot nor kolde vnto this question seing that Pupianus was no bishop but one that sometime had bene off Cyprians churche But of answer to my argument that forasmuche as Cyprian condemneth the pride of Pupian for that his deede vvas like as if one should be appointed bishop of a bishop or iudge of iudge there is no newes wheras if yt were not a proude thinge to be bishop of a bishop c. Cypr. did with no good aduise set owte the faulte of Pupian by those wordes And that Cyprian complaineth not off any wronge doone to him as archbishop which the Ans afraied to affirme would haue his reader thinck but onely as he was Bishop yt appeareth manifestly by diuers places in that he denieth that he pressed him vvith further autoritie then that vvhich all bishops had by succession vnto the Apostels That Cyprian did not obiecte this to appointe hym selfe bishop of a bishop as a prowde name but as a prowde deede is a poore exception for if yt were a prowde deede to exercise the office off bishop ouer a bishop yt muste be also a proude name to be called the bishop off a bishop The Answ wordes carie no meaning with them to cōclude that which this cawse requireth For what meaneth this one bishop off a Prouince had no autoritie ouer another but were equall what is this to my reason which is that forsomuche as the godly vvriters proue the equalitie off the bishop off Rome vvith other bishops for that they called one another fellovves and brethren the bishops off dioceses and metropolitanes calling one an other fellovv bishop fellovv in office brother c doo therby declare that there vvas none vvhich ruled ouer an other For onles the reason be firme in the one yt is not good in the other But he answereth further Cyprian in calling the bishops off his Prouince fellow bishops and brethren declared therby the function to be all one So may the Papistes answer that the Bishop off Rome called the Bishops his fellowes and brethren becawse they had the same function and not in that for pollicie sake they were not subiect vnto him But as that so this is an absurd answer The Godly writers vse not this reason to proue that other bishops exercised the same ministerie off the word and Sacramentes with the bishop of Rome which the Pope him self confesseth but to proue that they were not vnder but off the same autoritie with him which he denieth The next answer Cyprian in calling them fellow bishops declareth his humble spirit is I doubt not althowgh I can not presently note the place another buckler off the Papistes againste this reason As if true humilitie did hinder any to take that honour which his lawfull office ether in churche or commen wealth doth put vpon him He further answereth that S. Peter calling the Bishops and Pastors to whom he wrote fellow Elders was notwithstanding higher in degree then they I graunt but I denie that therfore S. Peter could exercise dominion ouer them When it is saied that fellow bishop importeth equalitie yt is not ment so much for honour as for equalitie in autoritie that one hath ouer an other For in honour the bishop off Rome had some preeminence ouer the Alexandrine c. yt being graunted him to haue the first seat in meetinges which notwithstanding had no dominion Therfore this maketh directly against the dominion off Archbishops For if Peter in degree off ministrie aboue the pastors in calling them fellow elders renounced dominion ouer them how much more owght they forbeare to vse dominion ouer those with whom they carie the same yoke and degree off ministrie To that owt off Cyprian none of thē toke him self bishop off bishops he answereth he meaneth the title off vniuersall bishop which how absurdly it is spoken may appeare by that a before spoken off the Africane Councell His second answer is a pinch at Cyprians autoritie for that thes wordes were
vttered off him in that Councell where an error was decreed wherof hs was cheif autor Where he might with as good right reiect all that euer Cypriā wrote For albeit this were spokē in that Councell yet yt no more perteineth nor hathe no more acquaintance with that error then this that we are iustified by faithe alone Yf he woulde conclude that Cyprians autoritie is no sufficiente proofe considering that being a man he might erre in this pointe as he did in another it is that we willingly graunte and therfore call and crie vpon the D. as loude as we can that the whole cause may be tried by the scripture from which he flieth as Darckenes before the face off the light His thirde is by thes wordes none taketh on hym to be the bishop off bishops he mente that one bishop shoulde not tyrannically rule ouer another which is vntrew for Cypr. addeth that as an either thinge likewise forbidden So that where he saith none dothe ether make him selfe bishop off bishops or bynde his fellovves by tyrannicall feare the D. off twoo sentences maketh one and Cyprians or he expoundethe that is to say But doeth he not see how still he ministreth weapons vnto the Papistes by this friuolous answer for vnto the godly learned writers alledging this place to proue that the bishops off Rome haue no autoritie ouer other bishops the Papistes may answer with the D. that all that is mente off tyrannicall autoritie Fouthly he saith thes wordes Euery bishop hathe ftee libertie and free iudgment off his ovvne povver are not mente off iurisdiction but of iudgement and opinion As if there were les daunger in letting a bishop holde what opinion he thincketh good withowt controlement of an other bishop then in letting him gouerne his churche as him semeth best withowte the same controlement So that herin the D. flying from the smoke falleth into the fire The vanitie off which answer appeareth also by that in an other place where he saith there is but one bishopricke vvheroff euery bishop holdeth one part vvholy fully in all respectes Likewise in an other place he saith he holdeth his bishoprick off Christ vvho is the cheif bishop And most plainly it is confuted by that I haue alledged owt off Cyprian Where in expresse wordes he referreth this freedome off power which euery Bishop hath not as the D. to the bishops opinion but vnto the gouernement off his church Where for confirmacion off thes answers he saith otherwise a bishop should be exempted from all controlement off Synodes and other as well as of archbishops the answer is easy For althowgh Cyprian say no one Bishop can be iudged off an other bishop yet he denieth not but he may be iudged off the church And althowgh no one bishop haue autoritie ouer him yet a Councell off bishops may correct him And that this is one off those iudgementes off Christ Cyprian ment off and that in those wordes he doth not reserue the iudgement off the bishop offending vnto the day of the general iudgemēt may be shewed by that he saith Christ set thē bishops in their charges As therfore Cyprian calleth the placing off a bishop in his charge by the churche by the elders theroff and the next bishops the placing of Christ so he meaneth that iudgement giuen against a bishop offending by the church and Synodes is the iudgement of Christ That owt off Cyprian wherin the weight off the argument lyeth euery Bishop muste rule his ovvne flock him self as he that shall make account off his deed vnto the Lord he passeth by After to the wordes off Cyprian that nether he nor his fellovves vsed compulsion tovvardes any appointed any lavv to any seing that euery one set ouer the church hathe in gouernement theroff free disposition of his owne will werof he shall gyue accoumpte vnto the lorde he saith I left owte that which gyueth the solution and therupō according to his coustome picketh a quarell to translate the whole sentence Yet nether sheweth one word nor can shew lefte owte to make for him against me Onely he saithe vndowtedly Cyprian in saing he would not deale with other bishops c. meaneth those churches and bishops which he had nothing to doo with which is very straunge seing he hath before made him archbishop almost ouerall the world After he saith he would not haue suffered them if they had bene off his owne charge which is a grosse begging off that in question for yt is debated whether he had any bishops vnder his charge And what manner off interpretacion is this vve do violence to none nor appointe lavves to none that is to none in other Prouinces and euery bishop hathe povver of the gouernment of of his ovvne churche that is euery bishop owte off Cyprians prouince what a kold saying should this be that nether he nor any of his fellowes vsed violence towardes bishops off other Prouinces With whom they hauing so small intercommuning could scarce vse violence if they would Or to say they appointed no lawes to vvhom they had no coulor to gyue any And as this interprepretacion hauing lien in the Ans rack is pulled owt of all the ioyntes so that it is vtterly false may appeare by that before alledged owt off the Councell off Carthage Where wordes of like effect are vttered by Cyprian vnto the bishops off the same Prouince he was of Last of all becawse I may not haue that credite which the Ans to vnderstand this place off Cyprian yet I trust he vvill belieue Musculus Who of this place and others concludeth that vvhen Cyprian vvrote he did neuer so much as think off the povver off Patriarches off Metropolitanes off the bishop off Rome but esteemed that all bishops ovvght to haue like care and povver euery one in his ovvne church So beside this testimonie that Cyprians priest was nether Patriarch nor Metropolitane he hathe also that he was bishop of one church which is that I haue affirmed For the autoritie vvhich the archbishops and bishops haue ▪ there is an other place yt is sufficient here to shew that they had no iurisdiction one ouer an other in Cyprians times That owt off Cyprian towching ministers sacrificing is before answered To Cyprian saying the vnitie off the church is interteined by consent off bishops one vvith an other the D. answereth they agree neuer the worse by hauing a superior aboue them Albeit they agree neuer the worse yet if they agree neuer the better he owght as an vnprofitable tree which occupieth place in the lordes orchard be rooted owt Althowgh it shal God willing appeare that the Archbishops office is the knife which cut the cordes off vnitie which both was and otherwise might haue bene mainteined amongest the bishops The first reason why tharchbishop is necessarie is because there may be one to assemble them together As thowgh that was not doon before that office was
Callis Deep Ireland and Flaunders then at Canterbury Yea the triall from Carthage vnto Rome is much easier seing there was but three daies iorney betwene Rome and Carthage As appeareth by that Cato to induce the Senate of Rome to desiroy Carthage held ovvt a fig saying that vvas but the third day sithēs that fig grevv in Carthage Therfore Cyprians argument by his interpretacion is not worth a shoe buckle to proue that they owght not to flie from Carthage to Rome the passage being easter then from one end of a Prouince to an other Especially making suche large Prouinces as he doth that is one to cōteine 160. bishoprickes belike such as ours Where he saith this reason may serue as well againest VVestminster hall leauing that as impertinent vnto this question it shall be sufficiēt to answer that besides that there be many causes ended in lower courtes houldē almost in euery village he owght to vnderstand that ecclesiasticall causes are to be handled with greater speed then ciuill matters of consciēce more then of the pourse the title of heauēly inheritance more then the earthly of the life to come then of this So that althowgh the trial of ciuill cawses for the whole realme were as he saith necessary a◠Westminster yet the same reason will not stand in ecclesiasticall In all thes places which the Ans hath browght owt off Cyprian Eusebius Socrates it is manifest that one bishop is opposed vnto heretick bishops Whereby may appeare how like it is which I haue alledged that by one bishop is vnderstanded not the vnitie off nombre but off truth in religion And that there be no doubt hereof let Cyprians wordes be considered That there should be an other altar appointed and a nevv priesthood besides one altar and one priesthood it can not be VVhatsoeuer he be vvhich gathereth īn an other place scattereth yt is adulterous yt is vvicked yt is sacriledge vvhatsoeuer the rage off men doth institute vvherby the ordinance off God is broken Now except the Ans will say it is wicked against the word of God adulterous to haue two bishops in one citie yt must follow that Cyprians wordes doo not bar many bishops to be in one citie And what if it be shewed that not onely in Cyprians time but in Cyprians church there were diuers bishops Augustine speaking of the Donatistes which seperated them selues from the church for that they saw certein faultes vnpunished therin saith Hovv did then Cyprian and other the Lordes corne in that church meaning Carthage of vnitie eate the Lordes breade and drink his cup not vvith the people onely or commen sort off the Clergie but vvith the bishops themselues vvhich vvere couetous ketchers and vvhich shall not possesse the kingdome off heauen I woulde gladly vnderstand what Bishops they were like to be with vvhom Cyprian did celebrate the supper off the lord were they not Bishops off the churche off Carthage If they were it appeareth I haue not so vainly expounded Cyprian as the Ans would beare his reader in hand And althowgh the D. be not able to proue that ther was but one onely bishop in a citie in Chysostomes time yet I graunt that was obserued in the moste places Whether I am able to shew that from Christes time there were two Bishops in one cytie before appeared now appeareth what a vaine crack it was that all the godliest and best learned expound Cyprians wordes off an Archbishop when not one can be found to testifie it Yet to th end he may haue some thing to mainteine this brag he goeth about to make the writers differ from them selues For if this place be off the autoritie that euery bishop hath in his dioces as writers doo flatly affirme in so much that the bishop off Salisbury bringeth in Cyprian speaking after this sort For euery bishop saith Cyprian vvithin his ovvne dioces is the priest of God c then yt cannot be vnderstanded of an Archbishop For the autoritie Cyprian speaketh off being the highest and such as could not be controlled of any other bishop yt must necessarily seclude tharch bishops autoritie which is aboue a bishop And as the Answ to make Cyprians place serue his turne was compelled to expound Priest archbishop church Prouince so to make the bishop and M. Fox help to beare owt his folies he must expound dioces Prouince and Bishop archbishop And what man̄er of proofe is this to cōclude the greater by the lesse yf of an archbishops autoritie he had concluded a bishops it had bene more probable but off a bishops to conclude an archbishops and off dominion ouer a dioces as he pretendeth to conclude dominion ouer one Prouince is far owt off square The next is answered in the beginning The first place is that the bishop vpon that of Cyprian saith confusion and sectes rise in a Prouince or dioces vvhere the Bishops autoritie c. Here because the bishop maketh mention off Prouince he concludeth that he speaketh off an archbishop As if his wordes may not well be taken that the confusion of secres insueth in a whole Prouince thorowghowt because the bishops autoritie which be therī is dispised For beside that I haue shewed that the bishop can not sauing his former sentence which he soft repeateth expound Cyprians place off an archbishop if he had in this place ment an archbishop it had bene easie to haue coupled him with his Prouince as he doth the bishop with his dioces He asketh me what I call him that hath gouernement off a Prouince I aske him where the bishop off Sal. saith Cyprians place is to be vnderstood of that bishop which hath gouernement off a Prouince doth the onely mention of the word Prouince ▪ infer an Archbishop If he proue an Archbishop and Prouince relatiues so that a man can not name the one but he muste vnderstand the other he saith some thing Ad also that the Ans dealeth vnfaithfully in this place For the bishop making his conclusion both off Cyprian and of a place off Honorius Emperour he propoundeth it as the conclusion of Cyprians place onely Whereas if he could conclude off thes wordes vvithin a prouince an archbishop yet yt were easie to answer that the bishop put in those wordes in respect of the place cyted owt of the Emperour and not in respect off Cyprians Considering that within a dousen lines after he affirmeth that Cyprians place is vnderstanded off thautoritie off a Bishop within his seuerall dices and by vvhole Brotherhood a companie vvithin a seuerall dioces For that off M. Novvell pag. 33. beside that whatsoeuer he speaketh there is not vpon this place of Cyprian but of an other I haue shewed in the former booke that cheif Prelate ys not alwaies vsed for a bishop And that it is not altogether vnlike but M. Nowell might meane so appeareth by that the D. cyteth owt off the 62. and 63. pag. wherehe taketh cheif
which the Ans hathe alledged yf yt be weighed dothe sufficiently declare how farre Dionysius was front that antoritie euer the churches off Pentapolis which he imagineth For there ys shewed bow when he vnderstoode off certeine bishops there leauened with the heresie of Sabellius he sente messengers to them to call them backe from their heresie And when they wente yet forwarde more impudently what iurisdiction doothe he exercise againste them doothe he cause them to appeare before him send owt the sentence off excōmunication remoue them from their charges suspende them at the leaste vntill some triall off their amendement none off all thes but saith he vvas by this stubbernes off theirs compelled to vvrite againste them And yet if Dionysius might haue vsed this autoritie he woulde no dowbte and if he had Athanasius would by no meanes haue let it passe For if he could haue alledged that Dionysius had ether deposed suspended or excommunicated those Sabellian bishops yt had bene a singular meanes to haue stopped the mouthe off the Arrians which woulde haue borne men in hande that Dionysius fauored Sabellius heresie and consequently also theirs And towching the gouernement off his owne churche in Alexandria how farre yt was from that lordlie dominion the bishops and archbishop vse now maie appeare in that he calleth the elders off the churche off Alexandria his felovv elders After folowethe one Gregory which he auoucheth owte of Euseb 7. li. 24. to haue gouerned all the churches throwghe Pontus firste this word all is not founde there Secondly yt is vtterly vntrue that he saith he gouerned all the churches For Eusebius ioineth Athenodorus with him as his matche in all pointes So that if there were any archbishop there it was two headed contrary to the archbishops institution supposed of his patrons Thirdly yt appeareth in an other place where Eusebius speaketh of them againe that they were not bishops off all the churches of Pontus but had onely their parishes or churches in Pontus And the cause why Euseb made mention of those onely was as is there apparant because they were the moste famous amongeste the Bishopes in those partes and therfore by all likelihood chosen owte off the reste were sent vnto the Councell off Antioche gathered against the heresie of Sabellius Therforè he which is saide off the D. to haue bene ruler off all the churches off Pontus is founde to haue but one onely parishe in that circuite Peter Bishop off Alexandria foloweth which hauing regarde vnto the time wherin he died was onely aboute eight yeares before the Councell off Nice So that the Answ in saying he was 20. yeares before must be vnderstāded of the tyme he entred into his bishoprick Of him Epiphanius saithe he had the administracion of all the churches of Aegypte was archbishop What manner off archbishoprick and gouernement this was may be gathered by that that Epiphanius saithe Miletius vvas archbishop likevvise and had the gouernement together vvith him And not that onely but that Miletius occupied the seconde place in the archbishopricke vvith Peter Wherby Epiphanius gyueth to vnderstande that there was the third and fourth and consequently as many archbishops as there were bishops off name and estimacion amongest them which beside their owne procured the good off other churches rounde aboute This is further confirmed in that Epiphanius as rendring the cause why he calleth Miletius Archbishop and to haue the seconde place after Peter saithe Miletius seemed to excell the other bishops in Aegypte And where yt is saide that Miletius vvas vnder peter yt is to be vnderstanded that he was vnder him in honor and not subiecte vnto him as vnto a commaunder or as to one which had dominion ouer him as yt shall appeare by the Councell off Nice after and as the discourse of Epiphanius storie plainely shewethe For where as betwene Peter and his adherentes off the one parte and Meletius and his felowes off the other being shut in in prison for testimonie off the trwthe there fell a controuersie abowte receiuing those which had fallen in time off persequution Peter as Epiphanius reporteth desired and made supplication vnto Miletius and the rest saying let vs receiue them and appoint them a penance And when he coulde not gaine his cawse by praier and supplication he spred owte a vaile in the middaste off the prison and proclaimed by a deacon that as manie as vvere off his syde ▪ shoulde come vnto him and those vvhich vvere off Melitius parte shoulde goe to him Wherupon a fevv ioined them selfes vnto him the greater nomber remaining vvhith Melitius In which counte off Epiphanius there is nether any autoritie or dominion pretended by Peter ouer the reste nor any subiection acknowledged off the other but there is to be seene contrariwise all felowlike behauiour of one towardes an other And onles this be the propertie of an Archbishop to be autor off a horrible schisme and rente in the churche whereas yt ys vaunted off him that he compoundeth schismes made by other ther appeareth nothing in Peter in that whole action Archbishoplike If the Answ say the prison was no place where he could exercise his archiepiscopall autoritie the replie is easie that he might as well exercise yt there as owt off prison For yt being a time off persequution he coulde vse no where any other constreint then by the ecclesiasticall censures and those hauing as appeareth a company with him in prison he might as well vse there as being at libertie Hitherto I trust hath appeared that there hath bene not so much as any footing or kold sent ether off archbishop or metropolitan suche as ours yt followeth to examin that owt off the Nicene Councell which bringeth the first tydinges of the Metropolitanes Where we hauing confessed that there were Metropolitanes denied that they vvere like ours how truly resteth to be considered First that which the Answ can most pretend owt off this Councell for iurisdiction off Metropolitanes ouer Bishops off the same Prouince is the bishop off Alexandria ovvght to haue povver ouer the bishops in Egypt Lybia and Pentapolis Thes are the sounding wordes and which carie the greatest noyse off Metropolitane autoritie Yf therfore it fall owt that thes wordes to haue power bring more shew in the eie then weight in the balance then the Answ is greatly fallen from his hope which thincketh to reape of this peace dominion off the Metropolitan ouer other bishops The wordes which the D. turneth to haue gouernement signifie in that place nothing but to g haue cheif dignitie or honour Which is apparant for that the same thing being attributed vnto Rome Antioch and other metropolitane churches is vttered by the word honorable revvard the same that dignitie in the next canon where be speaketh off the bishop off Ierusalem as it is also noted off Villerius where he confirmeth this signification off the word preeminence owt off Plato This may be further vnderstanded
one Then let him answer whether thes sayinges a bishop and an other minister off the word are all one a bishop and an other minister off the word be not all one be opposed and set one against an other If he can deny none off these then it ys iustly concluded that this inuention off man which hath made a bishop to differ from another mynister off the worde is againste the truth Because I loue not that compas off wordes which the D. delighteth in I concluded shortly and yet sufficiently to the vnderstanding off any that dothe not willingly blindefolde him selfe My argument ys The best deciding off controuersies vvas in the apostels time but that vvas not by archbishops vvherfore the best deciding of cōtrouersies is not by archbishops for proofe that yt was not by archbis I set downe that there were no archebishops then Vnto this deformed face off reason as he calleth yt let vs see how formally he answereth Firste he saith we are not bounde to the forme of gouernemēt vsed by the Apostels and therin referreth him selfe to that he hath and shal saie where also let him take his answer Secondly that althowghe the Apostels had not the name off Archbishops yet they had the office which I haue shewed to be a shift of the Papistes Then yt is to be obserued how he proueth that thapostels had the office of an archbishop and in what good logicke Archbishops haue the direction off many churches the ending off controuersies c. the Apostles had the same therfore the Apostels were archbishops by this reason a man maie proue not onely diuers but contrary thinges to be all one seing contraries haue diuers thinges wherin they agree So that first this kinde off reasoning hath the fault of those ridiculous argumentes which the D. propoundeth pag. 316. secondly yt taketh for graunted which is the question For he presumeth that the Archbishops office kepeth the church in godly quietnes which is debated Thirdly to proue the Apostels autoritie in the churches which is not in question he hath made a greate muster of testimonies to proue the archbishops not a word After he cyteth Ambrose to proue that Apostles are bishops Yt is greate merueill if he kepe good order in the church for whose establishement the Answ is constreined thus to confound and make a broile off all and it is before confuted Howbeit admitting that the bishops succede vnto the Apostels in preaching the word and gouerning the church I haue shewed how that is a whip to driue the archbishop cleane owt of the church off god And this is here to be obserued that when it is saide the bishops succede vnto the Apostels c. that must be vnderstanded off the Apostles bishops and such as they instituted For what bishops haue better right to succede the Apostles then they But those were as I haue shewed bishops off singular congregations bishops which had no superiotitie ouer their fellowbishops as Ierome doth confesse In the end he saith If I can proue by good autoritie that one was gouernour amongest the 12. Apostles it shall not seme strange to haue an archbishop ouer a Prouince If vpon this that one had gouernement of 12. assembled in a particular place he can conclude that there should be one gouernour off the ministers in a Prouince I can with better reason conclude that there may be one to gouerne all the ministers in the worlde For if because one gouerned twelue therfore one may gouerne all in Prouince then becawse one may gouerne all in a Prouince I will conclude that one may gouerne all in the worlde As towching the number off those which are gouerned there is not so much difference betwene the ministers off a Prouince and the ministers off the whole church as betwene 12. and the ministers off some whole Prouince Towching the distance off place yt is as much betwene a Prouince and the wole extent off Christianitie as betwene a particular place off an acre breadeth and some Prouince Wherfore this reason is more fauorable to the Pope then to the Archbishop Peters superioritie shall be after seen where also this sentence of Ierome shall be answered Onely here let it be obserued that the Answ hath borowed this reason off Pope Anaclete which alledgeth it to proue Archbishops And it is browght also of Pighius against the protestantes which denied that there owght to be any archbishops as shall appeare herafter more at large The place off Caluin is handled afterward Bucers vpon the Ephes I haue answered That owt off his booke de Reg. Ch. the same in effect hath the same answer Howbeit it is here to be noted how the D. thorowgh greedy desire off seeming to say somwhat putteth downe with one hand that he setteth with the other For to the maintenance off the archbishop and bishop here be browght two testimonies one of Ierome thother of Bucer cleane contrary If Ierome say true that the superioritie off one Bishop ouer an other is by coustome not by institution off God then is that vntrue pretended out off Bucer that it pleased the holie goste yt should be so For if it be off the holie goste it is the institution of god The D. therfore must forgoe one off thes seing that both will neuer drawe in one forowgh The contrarietie with my self which the glosse chargeth me with is for that pag. 349. I saied owt off Eusebius that as long as thapostles liued if any vvent about to corrupt the doctrine they dit it in the darck and here owt off the Apostle I affirme there vvere heresies and schismes Wherin what contrarietie there is and what a trifler this is let the reader iudge sauing that if there were any contrarietie it is not mine with my self but Eusebius with the Apostle The Answ would gird vp his Archbishop in smaller roume that he might seme les growen owt off faschion He saith therfore the archbishop when a schisme or heresie riseth determineth yt according to the law established by the church Wherin he speaketh absurdly considering that the church can make no other rule wherby he may procede in decision off schismes and heresies then in referring him to the rule off the scripture So the summe off this answer is the Archbishop may not determin the matter at his pleasure but according to the word off god As thowgh the question were by what rule controuersies should be decided and not by whom For when the controuersie at Antioch was referred to the Apostles c. in Ierusalem it was not permitted vnto them otherwise to iudge off it then according to the word Now therfore let it be obserued how aptly the D. answereth To abat◠the swelling autoritie off the Archbishop I alledge that in deciding cōtrouersies yt is not permitted to any one to determin vvhat is the vvill off God in that behalf The D. saith the archbishop must determin by the word off God.
As thowgh if the matter had bene committed to S. Paul onely it should not haue bene with the same bond off keping him to the word yet yt was not so committed as I haue alledged And if he think more succour for him in the wordes he vsed the archbishop must determin according to the rule of the church it is certein also that the companie of Apostles and Elders in Ierusalem and what companie soeuer meeteth together abowt the ending of such matters is subiect vnto all lawful and commendable orders off the churche prouided for the more orderly proceding in that behalf So that there being nothing here alledged by the D. which agreeth not vnto the Apostles and Angels themselues the excessiue autoritie off tharchbishop doth still appeare in that he alone endeth controuersies which in the Apostolike church was not committed but vnto many For as for that in the next diuis he compoundeth not controuersies by him self alone onles he meane that he hath his seruantes the Chaunceler and Archdeacon or some other off his owne châ—â—sâ— â–ª the booke set owt by tharchbishop of late doth declare the coÌ„trary and the experience off his visitacions and deposing off ministers doth openly conuince him of vntruth If he say he is not alone he hath them following him he must vnderstaÌ„d that becawse ether the archbishop carieth their voices vnder his girdell or yf they vse the freedome which is meet yet the approbacion dependeth vpon the archbishops beck he can no more account them to be diuers then a maÌ„ and his shadow following him And where in his former booke he saith the cheif office off an archbishop is to compound contentions schismes c. here being put to his shift he changeth his speach saying it is his principall office to prouide that contentions c. be cut of Where he addeth or els with the Princes consent he setteth an order in a prouinciall Synode If there be any Synode ether to take the iudgement owt off his hand or controll the sentence gyuen by him it is like to be sore against his will. So that the remedy off this mischief dependeth onely vpon the Cyuill power which if ether yt be ennemy to religion or entangled with the present heresie as hath and may herafter come to passe the churche being withowt remedy must languish and pyne away He saith this example of the matter caried to Ierusalem proueth that euery parish within yt self hath no absolute autoritie to end controuersies but it behoueth to resort vnto the cheif church the contrary wherof appeareth For in that they both debated the cawse amongest them selues and when they coulde not agree decreed to send yt to Ierusalem yt ys sufficiently declared that they had autoritie to end it amongeste them and that yt was not wrunge from them by necessitie off law or pretence off higher autoritie but voluntarily sent vp to Ierusalem Althowgh for this place in hand yt ys sufficient that the deciding off controuersies hung not vppon the mouth off one man were he neuer so sufficient but were referred vnto thassemblies of the Auncients and ministers of the word As for his olde shiftes of the weaknes of negatiue argumentes of autoritie and of examples of the scripture and thapostolike church their folie is opened before Here he taketh on against my vnskilfulnes in the scriptures which referred that vnto ministers which is spoken off all the church Howbeit if he had coÌ„ferred the text he should haue found that thapostle speaketh of the Prophe thes and not of the whole church For he biddeth that tvvo or three of the Prophetes should speake and the other that is to say Prophetes should gyue iudgement Which appeareth by the reasoÌ„ added the sprite off the Prophetes is subiect to the Prophetes Therfore the D. corrupteth the place and the argument to proue that not one minster but many owght to determin of doutfull causes is vntowched Where I pressed him with this that vnitie is fully mainteined by the ministeries vvhich God hath ordeined â–ª he asketh how oft I will alledge it Yf it be a fault in me to alledge one place often vpon diuers occasions what is it in him to alledge one thing so continually vppon the same occasion If he would haue opened his eyes he should haue seen that I vsed an argument proper to this place and not vsed before For where he pretendeth the archbishop was ordeined to kepe vnitie I shew that withowt him vnitie is perfectly kept wherunto he answereth nothing but as before But I will serue his tast and giue him change For the Apostle a litle before exhorting to vnitie bringeth also this reason one body one spirit one hope one Lord one faith one baptisme one God c. Wherby appeareth that the apostle tooke thes ones to be sufficient to kepe the people off God in vnitie And if to haue an archbishop had bene so necessary the apostle shoulde haue fowly forgotten him self hauing so fit a place to speake of him And as this is aptly opposed against the pretended peace by a Pope so is yt likewise against that surmised to be browght by the archbishop Where I ask vvhat buckler vve may haue to hould ovvt against the Papistes vvhich come vpon vs vvith the name of traditions off the apostles if vve admit that there vvere archbishops ordeined by them vvherof the scripture maketh no mention he answereth there can be no daunger in them so they be not made necessarie to saluacion but such as receiue alteracion Which althowgh it be cleane contrary to that he saide before where he bindeth vs to obseruation of them as I haue shewed yet it shall be sufficient here to let him vnderstand that he hath vtterly barred him self from this answer for that he saith this ministrie of the Archbishop is necessarie yea most necessarie Now if it be most necessarie for preseruacion of vnitie off the church yt is plaine that it is necessarie also for the saluacion of yt For the next diuis I haue shewed how absurdly the D. defendeth this rouing where let the reader iudge what difference there is betwene our archbishop and Ieromes bishop which differed nothing from a commen minister but that he had the ordeining off ministers And here I call once againe vpon him to shew any godly and learned writer which expoundeth this place of Ierome off an archbishop to see if he be any happier in this place then he was before in Cyprians The Bishop off Salisb affirmeth that the very meaning off Ierome is off euery bishop in his dioces and Harding in the end beaten downe with the light off the place is compelled to confesse it The next I leaue to the reader to iudge by that alledged on both sides The D. saith I refuse Ierome in a matter off storie yet I denie no part off his storie wherin he seemeth to haue lost all commensense For who in
allegde Iacobs tvvo vviues to proue he might haue as many as he liste should ansvver that althovvgh he might haue tvvo yet yt folovveth not that he may haue as many as he liste proueth that one may ouerthrow one vnlawfull thing by an other withowt teaching ether off them lawfull which the D. calling yt a ieste answereth not And yet yt ys manifest that thes he his reasons both here and there which may in deede worthely be iested at albeit there is no worde in the example I browght that carieth the countenance off a ieste Vnto that I browght of greater necessitie off vnitie in the vvhole church then in ane Prouince there is nothing answered here he saith I am greatly deceiued considering that the Pope claimeth his temporalities by Constantine and his supremacie by Peter If he listed he might haue vnderstanded that diuers Papistes which handle that matter off supremacie alledge Constantines donacion for his temporalities onely I said not that the Pope maketh his claime onely by Constantine Althowgh yt may be shewed that Sozimus who yow say claimed the supremacie ouer all the church made his claime not by Peter nor by any autoritie off scripture but by the Councell off Nice confirmed by the Emperour Constantine Where he saith my supposition touching one Caesar ouer all the realmes which haue churches is but supposed I meruaile that he is ignorant that Constantine in the ende off his reigne had the Empire whole in his handes and that all the churches had rest vnder him that the Emperour off Rome is called lorde off all the earth Lord off all the vvorlde So that if he would haue appointed one bishop ouer all prouinces vnder him the bishop of his appointement should haue had more then double the iurisdiction that the Pope euer had when his kingdome was largeste the Pope him selfe making no further claime then ouer the churches which bare the name off Christe as Pighius him selfe confesseth Wherupon foloweth that his answer often alledged to put a difference betwene the archbishop and Pope the one taketh it to him selfe the other hath yt of the gifte of the Prince is not worthe a strawe Where I shew that the sufficientest mynister finding enovvghe to doo in one onely congregacion no man can be hable to vvelde the gouernement off all the churches in a Prouince he answereth that lacke off will or skill of some busie Pastors to dispatch controuersies which them selues be autors off letteth not but that bishops and archbish may be sufficient for their charges I make my argument off all and he answereth off some I of the moste fyt and sufficient pastors and he off vnfit If he haue any better answer wee will attend after yt if not then the archbishop is here againe taken by defaulte And when ether he must needes let his Archbishop fall to the ground or els denie that men off greatest giftes haue found enowgh to doe in the gouernement of one congregacion being both vnwilling to graunte the one and ashamed to denie the other yt is manifest he crept into this corner When I shew that as the patrons off the Archb. may alledge the supplie off Archdeacons Chauncelors c. in their absence so the popes aduocates may pretende his deputacion off Cardinalls c. he answereth that the office off bishop and Archbishop may be well excuted so farre as yt is conuenient for the estate of the church which ys that in question Where lykewise otherwhere I alledged to this pourpose that his bishop and Archbishop hauing their charge assigned by him the same vvith a commen pastor the gouernement onely excepted are therby bounde to pastorall preaching and ministring off sacramentes in all the parishes off their iurisdiction vvhich is impossible he staggereth to and fro saying the bishop hath to procure his diocese ys muche as in him lieth wheras he is charged for laying hand to more then he can gripe He addeth according to the lawes of the churche he is afraied to say off god that they preach where and when they see yt moste conuenient by that rule neuer also and no where yf in their sighte yt be conueniēt That yt foloweth not because the archbishop is bound to minister the word and Sacramentes therfore he muste doo yt in all the parishes of his prouince which followeth well For the bishop appointed by the holy ghoste is commaunded to feed the whole flocke committed vnto him euen with the same feading Saincte Paule fedd the Ephesians that is with preaching so plentifully that all might vnderstand the whole will off god Wheruppon followeth that his charge is not to feede where and when he seeth good but to feed and that to sufficiencie all the people off his charge as he that shall answer for the bloude off all which perish for wante of sufficient instructiō by his mouth And if there be as he saith the same deutie off the Archbishop towardes his charge as off the bishop towardes his the same foloweth in him for the charge off his Prouince being a lyke committed vnto him by the same reason he is bounde to preach in one parte he is bounde in all if not in all in none Now to returne where he saith preaching ordeining mynisters and suppressing herysies is not committed vnto the Archdeacon Chauncelor c. but such as by rules off the church are permitted them firste yt is his continuall faulte that he should proue by the lawe off God he proueth by the lawes of our church yea and by those which remained off the estate which was in poperie I mighte much better alledge the lawes off the reformed churches which haue abolished them And if he wil againste the reasons browghte oppose autoritie and binding me for my proofes within the compas off the worde off God vvander him selfe in the broade feilde off mens lawes in question yt is time to shuite vp the disputation which is mainteined by such grosse begginge Secondly how will he proue that he may sett ouer his charge vnto an other or that yt ys more lawfull to committ other thinges perteining vnto his office then those which he reserueth vnto him selfe Or if he may commit yt whether he may commit yt to tharchdeacon so farre vnder degree of the mynisterie off the Archbishop to whome those thinges belong or to Chauncelors c. which haue no entrance into the ministerie by any ecclesiasticall institution all which are shewed vnlawful in the booke of discipline lately set forth And why may not the Pope cōmmunicate his charge with his Cardinales as well as the archbishop with his Suffraganes c If he can shew no word why he may doo it but it be onely vpon constitution off the church that he casteth the ouerplus off his bourdē vpō the neck of his Chancelour c by the same reason the vniuersall bishop may discharge him self vpon his deputies Where he saith the vniuersall bishop can not ordeine
which I haue shewed to be far from the vse of those times or onles we graunt that there can be no schismes nor heresies in a particular congregacion wherof there is to good experience or that yt is impossible there should be many elders in one church which I haue declared and shall God willing declare further to be vntrue I saie onles thes proue an archbishop or a lorde bishop there is nothing in those wordes off Ierome And yet the D. that he may helpe his weake reasons with stronge wordes muste vppon thes conclude yt impossible to expounde Ieromes wordes otherwise then off bishop or archbishop such as ours Where he concludeth vpon that the elders chose one amongeste them whom they made bishop as the captaine is chosen of the the soldiars that therfore the bishop was ouer diuers congregations there is no likelyhood off reason And where to giue yt some he threapeth twoo thinges at my hande the one that this worde elder signifieth onely a minister off the worde thother that euery minister of the worde had his seuerall flocke he doothe but dalie For he knoweth well that I hould that the worde elder reacheth to such as gouerne onely and that there were in diuers congregations more then one which preached the word of god Where he saith those which I call obscure villages were litle cyties suche as with vs Ely or Peterborowgh I leue it to the reader to iudge how muche I haue therin squared from Erasmus who calleth them peeuish litle Tovvnes Where he saith he callethe them base cities I am contente the reader take which he liketh beste For bothe in proper speache can not be trew for to cal a towne and a litle towne and a peuishe lytle towne a citie is not for any thinge I know wonted Howbeit I will not here striue yt is sufficient that I haue shewed that there were bishops in other places which were no cities And euen in this the D. letteth fall the Popes decree which he defendeth in an other place which forbiddeth as well to place bishops in base and small cities as in vplandishe townes And albeit the D. be not hable by thes wordes of Ierome nor by any other which he hathe browght to proue that the bishop had any further reache then vnto one onely churche yet forsomuche as yt is not here question off the victorie but off trwth nor what the Ans is hable to proue but what maye be proued I will not denie but in Ieromes times the bishops vpon occasions before off me alledged had enlarged their boundes in suche sorte that there were certen congregacions which belonged to their ouersight and wherof they were called bishops But I appele first to the institution off God and vse of the purer times after the Apostles and then I answer that a dioces was not the twentith part of that which they haue now As appeareth by that alledged before owt of the Councels and by that Ierome saith that their elders vnder them gouerned in commen vvith them which they coulde not haue doon onles they being hard by had made one bodie with them For nether could the bishop doo any thing in his congregation withowt the elders nor they in theirs withowt him but they made one Senate amongest them The practise wherof is yet to be seen in certein reformed churches ▪ where the elders off certein small parishes round abowt make one bodie off Senate with the elders off the principall towne meeting together once at the least euery week Sauing that they haue altogether abolished that euill coustome which wrong the name of bishop from all the rest vnto one and graunted the ordinacion to him alone there being one amongest them which hath onely this aboue the rest when they assemble together to propound matters gather the voices giuethe exhortations and that also for a time and not during his ministerie I haue shewed that the argument wherwith the Ans would off a bishop conclude an archbishop and off one ouer a dioces one ouer a whole Prouince is too bad and it is not here to be repeted This place requireth to shew that albeit the Metropolitan was now receiued in the East partes yet ether he was not in the most partes off the weast where Ierom was or Ierome did not acknowledge him Wherin I will first propound my argumentes and after answer to his obiections And firste euen with the selfe same places he would proue tharchbishop is he ouerturned as of that againste the Lucifer For if it be certein which I haue shewed that Ierome speaketh off the autoritie that euery bishop hath in his precincte and plaine by Ieromes wordes that the autoritie he speaketh off there is suche as not onely hath no superior but no mate yt muste folow that aboue the bishop which Ierome propoundeth there can be no archbishop Againe where he affirmeth that the bishop elder and deacon vnder the gospell are in the same place that Aron his sonnes and the Leuites were vnder the law yt maie be concluded that forasmuch as euerie bishop in his charge hathe the same autoritie Aaron had and yt is certeine that there was no ecclesiasticall autoritie ouer Aaron therfore by Ierome there owght to be none aboue the bishop in euery churche Moreouer vpon that he saith that all bishops succede vnto the Apostels yt maie be reasoned forsomuch as the bishops haue the places off the Apostels in their seuerall churches and it certeine that the Apostels had no dominion one ouer an other but equall autoritie ▪ as bothe hath bene and shall be God willing further shewed that bishops owght not to haue anie bishop to whom they owght to be subiecte Beside this speaking off the orders in the churche in his times he reckenethe vp deacons archdeacons elders archelders and bishops If there had bene any Archbishops where hē was or he had alowed of anie there coulde neuer haue bene so fit a place to haue spoken off him considering that his purpose was to shew those degrees which were Seing therefore he maketh no mention off him yt is apparant that there was none or that he alowed off none Moreouer he putteth this difference betwene the Montanistes and the Catholikes that Catholikes had their bishops as the successors off thapostels gyuing vnto them the firste place but the montaniste heretikes had in the firste and cheifest place Patriarches in the seconde certeine vvhich they called Cenones so that the Bishop with them occupied but the thirde Now if the bishop was the higheste degree in the catholike churche and if to haue a Patriarche which the D. saith is all one with a Metropolitane and Archbishop ouer the bishop was in Ieromes iudgement worthie off this reproche I leaue yt to the readers iudgement what was Ieromes opinion off the office off an Archbishop and whether the same blot which he marked in the rowte off Montanistes be not in our churche where there is aboue
not yet yt was hard for him to haue suche knowledge off so many churches wherby he might giue so precise a sentence especially if they be compared with ours which often haue heretikes euen vnder there nose and either see them not or looke throwghe their fingers Where to declare the vnlikelihoode off our bishops with thē in times past Theodoret bishop 26. yeares is shewed to haue had neuer a halfepennie c his answere is he professed voluntarilie pouertie Wherto I haue litle to replie but that the D. for aduantage spareth not the honour of his authors it being a great reproche in so great wealthe as the D. supposeth he might lawfully haue had to be so beggarly The next I leaue to the readers iudgement That the office off Archbishop and Patriarck by Caluin was nothing but to assemble the Synod propound the matter gather the voices c. I haue shewed condemning those names in the generall he must nedes condemne them in the particular for in bothe those names the word off dominion ys put which he condemneth That he condemneth the office with vs is clearer then the sunne and that in diuers sortes first generall in that vppon the Apostles wordes no man may take honour but he that is called as Aaron he denieth yt lawfull to set vp any gouernement in the churche at the pleasure off men vvithovvt vvaiting for the commaundement of God and that the church office deuised vvithovvt his commaundement and expresse ordinance is vnlavvfull Wherby appeareth that the admonitions allegacion which the D. other where calleth grosse is in effect as fyne as Caluins Secondly in that he dothe in flat wordes declare that the holie goste tooke great heede that one should not so much as dreame off principalitie and dominion in the gouernement of the churche Thirdly in that he dothe precisely mislike that any should haue postorall charge ouer a Prouince which he declareth yet more manifestlie when he saithe the gouernement of the highe priest vvhich vvas ouer one nation ▪ being a figure off our Sau. Christ ovvght not to be follovved Wherby appeareth how vntrwly he chargeth me otherwhere with falsifiyng Caluin for saying that his iudgement is that no one should be minister off a whole nation That onely which he liketh off and confesseth to haue bene done according to the word off God is that when there were controuersies to be voided one had the preheminence to assemble the companie c. which preheminence we haue before confirmed so far is yt from vs that we can not abide yt That it can not be drawen further appeareth by that in the beginning off this treatise where it is manifest he streineth him selfe to speake honorably off the maner off discipline in the elder churches yet he saith there vvas almost nothing againste the vvord off God. And further that althovvgh there may be some lack in their orders yet because they did it oft good mynd and erred not muche it is good to gather yt Moreouer towching that institution which off all other is most plausible and least princelike that one in a churche should haue the name off bishop which notwihstanding as hathe bene shewed had no dominion nor autoritie to commaunde the reste he saithe that autoritie had no institution nor ground ovvt off the vvord of God. Wherupon yt is manifest those wordes off Calu. the ould bishops did frame no kind off gouernement but prescribed in the lordes vvord can not be drawen further then I haue said Where he expoundeth Caluins wordes euery singular bodie off church a dioces or prouince yt is as all the rest off these diuisions a shamefull bouldnes considering that Calu. doth in expresse wordes shut forthe a prouince and in calling it a singular bodie vsed moste propre wordes to set forthe a congregation which assembled into one place may at once be fed at one mouthe Where also otherwhere he supposeth Calu. meant by Prouinces suche as are vnder diuerse gouernours because one Prouince in one particular church in one kingdome vnder one Prince is but one bodie c. to omit his absurd speache that a prouince is in a particular churche in stede that he should haue said a particular churche is in the prouince let it be obserued that in making the whole churche in a kingdome but that singular bodie Calu. speaketh off he maketh notwithstanding the churche in one prouince which is the halfe off that yea euery diocese to be that singular bodie So that one singular and vndiuisible bodie off a churche must be twentie and one off them also cōteining an other which is absurde yea by this meanes the church in a 100. Prouinces being vnder one Prince shall be but one singular bodie His reason that he can not meane a particular parish because euery one hath not many ministers is a cauill For it is enowghe that ther were diuerse in some churches as in the churche off Philippes wheroff he spake to draw him to that consideration Besides that there was as shall appeare in the particular churches appointed by the word off God an eldership amongest whom it was meete the same order shoulde be kepte Where he supposethe Caluin to haue thowght the churche off Geneua with all those belonging vnto yt to haue made but one bodie off a churche all see the D. pouertie driuen to leaue his wide workes to seeke some comforte in his thowghtes onely knowen to the lord If I shoulde vse the aduantage off that he spake and I hearde off vndowbted witnesses that althowghe he had no preheminence before the lowest Mynister but onely to propounde the causes gather the voices c. and was chosen therunto euerie two yeare yet he misliked that that small preheminence shoulde so long remaine with one as which in time might breed in conuenience likewise that I hearde my selfe off Maister Beza which misliked off yt for the same cause affirming it cōuenient that it shoulde be done by euerie Pastor off the same resort in his weeke wheroff there be also other witnesses I say yf I should vse this aduantage a great deale more honest then his all see how that chaunge of presidētes which he derideth and will haue my onely phantasie should beside the scripture alledged and vse off the churches in Fraunce haue the approbation off these godly learned men But when in deede he deride the their iudgement written I haue smale hope that he will beare any reuerence to it onely spoken Neither require I that he esteme any thing theirs which can not be conuinced owt off their writinges let him wreste and wring wind and turne his worst But that we be not streight with him admit Caluin so thowght dothe yt follow that becawse he estemed a singular bodie off a churche scarce 20. small parishes lying round abowt wheroff euery off the ministers at the least meete once a weeke bothe for exercise off prophesie or interpretacion off the
shew one lettre that I euer wrote or spake that the place to the Ephes conteineth all thinges necessarie for the church then this that he writeth may haue place If not then he is vnworthy to receiue answer seing he hath bene gyuen to vnderstand how far we extend that place Therefore whether there were Publike churches Pulpits Schooles vniuersities in Christian congregations perteineth not to the question althowgh it hath partly and might further be shewed onely I gyue the reader warning that Iudg. â— off those saied to handle the pen whilest I gaue to much credit to translations was not so fitly alledged to proue vniuersities The three next diuis are idle repetitions before answered Where I shewed that one high priest vvas ordeined ouer the Ievves onely that he might represent our S. Christ cheif off the vvhole church the D. answereth he was also for policie and gouernement His reason our Sauiour Christ came not to take away ecclesiasticall policie â—s vaine as thowgh there could be no ecclesiasticall policie onles one minister were ruler ouer a whole nation After he citeth Caluin in the same faithe he is wont For his wordes no reason compelleth to extend that to the vvhole vvorld profitable in one nation are onely vnderstanded off that gouernement in Iury before our Sau. Christes coming which ys manifest in that he saith that example ovvght not to be follovved considering it vvas doon in respect that the high priest vvas a figure off our Sauiour Christ and the priesthood being translated that right is likevvise And after that example off the priestes gouernement ouer the whole nation vvas but for a time That the pressing off the example off the high priest amongest the Ievves dravveth a Pope I leaue to be considered off that before written especially seing the high priest was not onely gouernour off the Iewes when they were paâ—ed in the land off Canaan but euen then also when as it is knowen they were scattered thorowgh owt all natioÌ„s in the world For as S. Luke saith it to haue bene immediatly after the ascension off our Sau. Christ so was it many yeares before his coming into the world So that he which will frame an Archbishop by that example establisheth the Ecclesiasticall charge off one ouer those which were scattered thorowghowt all the corners off the earth It would be also obserued how here the D plaieth on both handes For when we reason sometime onely off the proportion off the law to the gospell other sometime off the perpetuall law off God we receiue answer that we are Iewish ennemies to the libertie of the church But where there is any thing vnder the law coming within a furlong off his cawse he gripeth it for gospellike and which owght to be folowed I see that M. Nowel thincketh a Metro poltane may be ouer a Christian prouince as the high priest was ouer the Iwes wherin I can be but sory that all the Godly learned are not off one mind As for Hyperius he seemeth to reason vpon a supposition that yf the example off the gouernement off the high priest vnder the law should be folowed which he before denied that then a man might conclude an Archbishop ouer a Prouince but not a Pope ouer the whole churche This to be his meaning I thinck the D. him selfe will accord me els let him tel me what to answer to him that saith that yt is not red in the scripture that euer any off the Apostels toke vnto him self autority or primacy ouer thother Apostels but that a most perfect equality is shewed to haue bene in all that Christ did prescribe them equall offices in all thinges that that maÌ„ner of dominion which was not in thappostles time owght not to haue bene admitted in the ages which followed Likewise what he will answer to him which condemneth as new found orders Archdeacons Archelders and vicares Wherof the 2. first haue as I haueshewed better testimonie of their auncientie then the Archbishop and are yf not off the same birth yet off the same kinde that he Where I shew the titles of cheif off the Synagoge of the SaÌ„ctuarie of the hovvs of god to make directly against him coÌ„sidering that particular churches are novv in steed off theÌ„ and therfore there ovvght to be such not in euery Prouince or dioces but in euery particular coÌ„gregation the D. as amazed speaketh he can not tell what First that the Iewes had particular Synagoges as we particular congregations and that I haue confessed that before As if I had any where denied it or had not euen here in effect affirmed it or it helped him for answer which is the ruine off his cause For their Synagoges being the same that our particular churches in euery one off them being not one but many princes the vrging off that example bringeth diuers cheif gouernours or archbishops in euery particular church Then he saith one Christian commen wealth is but one church which is vntrue For first althowgh the church be in a Christian commen wealth yet nether is the commen wealth the church nor the church the commen weaith as shall appeare Besides I haue shewed that the scripture off whose manner off speach the question is vseth not to call a Prouince or dioces a church but ether the whole vniuersall or els a particular congregation Thirdly if it were so yet the answer is insufficient For if the name off the howse off God were coÌ„men as well to a church in a Prouince as in a particular coÌ„gregatioÌ„ yet what right hath he to pull the ecclesiasticall priesthood more to his prouinciall then to our particular church He saith the superioritie amongest the priestes and Leuites is by the ciuill law of Moses Which declareth him rauished off all iudgement it being manifest that they were ether Ceremoniall or Ecclesiasticall lawes wherwith the Lord disposed of the degrees of the ministerie wherof the Ceremoniall being abolished and therfore the chieftie off one priest ouer all we willingly reteine the ecclesiasticall Where to that alledged off Princes off the families off Leuites I replied that the Lord vvoulde by those titles as by liuely pictures imprint in the Ivves vnderstanding the chieftie off our S. Christ he answereth that maketh nothing against their offices Yes for that those that would conclude therof one chief now amongest the ministers in a Prouince are therby put to silence Where he addeth so the estate off a Prince ouer a land should be abolished be is friuolous considering that that gouernement hath other staies off the ordinance off god Where that chieftie amongest the ministers hath nothing but that it was ceremoniall And if my answer like him not he shall haue the bishops as litle for his aduantage which saith The Prince of the families doth not signifie any gouernour or one endued vvith povver but onely the firste and best man off the companie He complaineth that the Bishop speaking off
had more excellent giftes then another which how manifest an argument yt is that the archbishop hathe robbed him off all sense let the reader iudge Sauing also that he signifieth that the difference betweene the Apostels must be in autoritie not in excellency off giftes or laboures Considering that there was amongest them in those poinctes a most perfect equalitie Which how absurd yt is may be considered in that some had the gifte off continencie which other some had not some trauailed with their handes for their liuing which other did not aÌ„d in that S. Paul is said expresly to haue laboured more then they all To the nexte beside bare affirmations and slaunders ofte repeted he answereth nothing To the ninth I answer not That the greke worde 2. Gal. 2. signifieth for the most parte to seeme can not be denied Whether there be any necessitie to chaunge this vsual aÌ„d ordinary signification in that place I leaue to the reader Seing first the same word in that chapter is twise so turned where the same bothe matter and persons are spoken off seing also yt is confessed by M. Beza which corrected yt that the apostle speaketh not according to his owne but according to the sense off his aduersaries Thirdly seing the cause which moued Erasmus and M. Beza to departe from that translation for that ther is nothing ioined to declare vvherin that seeming and apparance shoulde be is not so vrging For S. Paul vseth ofte suche shorte and cut speaches which are to be supplied by other places off his as M. Beza him self sheweth in the same chap. vers 6. I omit the nomber off interpreters which haue folowed the oulde in this behalfe Howbeit I confesse that if I had knowne that I had in this pointe to doe with the Geneua M. Bezas and Erasmus translation and Budies autoritie I would for reuerence off their learning haue vse â–ª an easier worde in dissenting nether wil I striue about yt witâ—â—he D. yt making litle ether off or on to the matter in hand seing the reason alledged by the adm and mainteined by me standeth still against the archbishop For if Saint Paul were in nothing inferiour vnto Saint Peter one of those cheif there meÌ„tioned and yf the making of S. Peter to haue autoritie ouer Saint Paul be the ouerthrow of S. Pauls argument then yt foloweth that thadm aptly alledged that place againste the archbishop Nether can it be alledged to proue any degree of honour the in ministery not onely because the price which the Galatheans had off those by suggestion off the false Apostels was excessiue in that they preferred those three before S. Paul but also for that off men in the same degree and autoritie one may iustly be honoured more then an other in respecte off giftes more excellente in him then in the reste Where I shewed that our Sa. Christs calling is auowed iust because yt was coÌ„teined in scripture he saith the apostel onely shewed by scripture that he intruded not him self but was called off god Where the testimonies put as causes off this that he did not glorifie him selfe muste be also cawses off his vocation and that in suche sorte that if those and suche like testimonies had not bene his vocation coulde not haue bene iustified where he saith none can iustifie his calling if it were not lawfull withowt suche a personall testimonie as our Sau. Christ had we presse not all the circumstances Ther being no more in that kinde off office but he alone the testimonie off it must needes be personall Yt shall be sufficient for him to shew that the Archbishops haue the same testimonie off the worde which the bishops or pastours To the next I answer not In the next there is nothing but bare affirmacions answered before To that alledged that if all the church vvere in one Prouince and one ouer them all in trauailing vvith an archbishop he should bringe forthe a pope he answereth that can not be the churche being scattered throwghout the worlde Which I graunte hauing respecte vnto Gods election and calling hidden from vs but that the churche established in a visible and apparant from may not which God foâ—â—id be browght into one land I hetherto heare no reason he saâ—th further that the church after the ascension being in Ierusalem onely yf yt had had one bishop should by my reason likewise haue had a pope which is vntrew For we ioine with the pastor and that in equal autoritie of gouernement thelders off the church condemning al monarchicall gouernement in the pastor The rest is aÌ„swered The next is answered before Accused for charging the adm to haue vsed the papistes reasons he saith he may vvel doo yt but reason he can shew none He denieth that he woulde proue one archbishop ouer a prouince by one kinge ouer a realme yet beside he flatly affirmeth that the forme off gouernment in the church must be according to that of the coÌ„mon wealthe driuen to the wal yt is his coÌ„mon refuge that by the same reason we easte away Archbishops we may likewise depose kinges His whole answer almost heer is cloured off diuers diuisions before where he hath reply And yet suche is his forehead that althowgh he haue heer set before me a charger off Colewories yet for answering them with repetition off one line in as few wordes as if I had onely referred him to the former treatise he shameth not to say that I vse nothing almost but repetitions To that alledged out of Caluin that the churche dothe cleane one part vnto an other vnder our Sau. Christes dominion according to the order and forme off policiÌ„e vvhich he hathe prescribed and therfore not by a bishop of a diocese or archbishop as those vvhich he praescribed not he answereth that he speaketh off the spirituall gouernement and not off the externall wherby he maketh Caluin a trifling disputer For the Papistes which will haue the pope a ministeriall head vnder Christe Confesse that he alone gouerneth inwardly and secretly by his spirit but that their pope is a meanes wherby he doth yt Therfore Cal. in saying that that is doen by the order and forme off policie prescribed off God stopped vp that corner against them And beside that yt will be hard for him to shew that the inwarde working off God by his spirit is called an order and forme off policie let him answer where that order and forme off policie off the lordes secret working with his spirit is prescribed seing the worke thereof ys as the voice of the wind which we hearing can not tel from wheÌ„ce yt cometh nor whetâ—â—â— yt will and seing the lord commaunding his ministers to doe their dwtie reserueth to him selfe the manner and order how and when he will worke in wardly Secondly he answereth that this policie off our Bishop and Archbishop is praescribed althowghe not particularly expressed in his word as if the
b Diuis 9. pag. 442. c Councel Neocaesar d Possido in vita August Instit 4. l. ca. 4. 3 se vpon the eight coÌ„ â–ª maund a in the praef to the 3. ca. of this tr b vpon Phil. ca. 1. c 2. cap. off this tra Diuis 15. pag 445. Euse li. 1. de vit Const a Athana Apol. 2. b Costerius in the life off Ambro. c IeroÌ„ ad Rusticum Monach. d 1. Cor. 10 e Ier. vpon Titus Ier ad Oceanum f Di. 16. 17 pag. 446. g 4. carth 14. 15. ca. Tyron c. 5 Pag. 471 â–ª In the booke intituled the Discipline c. a 4. conc Cart. c. 32 Sozom. lib. 3. c. 9. Athanas 2. Apol. b August Epist â—0 a Possido invit Au. b Roma cap â–ª 3. c vpoÌ„ the eight coÌ„maund a Cal. inst 4. lib ca. â— sect 17. a M. Fox in the boke off M. Tindal c. b VpoÌ„ the 8. coÌ„maund c M. Elm. d 473. e Possid in vit August f Ad NepotianuÌ„ opa 472. â— pag. 83. pag. 200. pag. 473. Pag. 473 Conc. Ty roÌ„ 3 can 5. pag. 473. Diuis 18. pag. 447. Cart. c 34 Iud. 8. v. Diuis 19. pag. 447. Euseb 7. li. ca. 30. Ruffin 1. lib. ca. 19. Athana Apol. 2. Diuis 20. pag. 448. Ioh. 20. 1â— Theod li. 5. cap. 8. Socr. li. â— cap. 6. Diuis 21. pag 449. a 1. Tim. 3 â— c Vpon the 8. coÌ„maund Ierom. ad Nepot Diuis 22. pag. 450. Diuis 23. 24. 25. pag. 451. 1. Tim. 6. 6. 8. vpon 4. Ephes Diuis 26. pag. 452. CAP. VI. Pag. 454. 1. Cor. 4. 1. Diuis 4. pag. 455. * Tract 1. Diui. 6. pag. 457. a Diui. 15. pag. 367. vpon the Ephes e Diu. 42. pag. 390. Diuis 7. pag. 458. 1. Cor. 15. 9. Diuis 10. pag. 461. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Diui. 11. pag. 462. Heb. 5. 5. 6 a Diu. 31. pag. 380. Diuis 33. Pag. 381. b Diu. 14. pag. 465. c Diu 32 pag. 381. Diuis 41. pag. 389. d Diui. 33. pa. 381. e di 1617. pag. 467. f Diu. 41. pag. 389. a Diu 43. pag. 390. Diuis 50. pag. 396. Diuis 70. pag 417. b Diu. 18. pag. 469. Iohn 3. 8. a d 70. 71 pag. 4. 7. b â— Tract c in the 2. and 3. ca. off this Tract d di 16. 17 pag. 446 Throwgh desire off making no great chaunge off the order laid forth by the Doctor vvherby the reader should be muche troubled in collatioÌ„ of our bokes and partly for that my papers vvent so sone to the printâ— vvherby I could not correct that my self aftervvard misliked at is come to pas that there are diuers thinges vvherin by order it might haue bene better prouided for memory VVhich I haue partly endeuoured to help by this direction vvherby yt shall not be vneasy to finde any off the principal pointes conteined in this book THe scripture is a perfect rule off all actions which can fall into maÌ„s life aswell in defining thinges vnnariable as in giuing rules wherby thinges variable by circunstance may be compassed page lvij c. Whether refer that wherin is shewed what of Moses law remaineth page xciij Likewise that the Actes of thapostles are necessary for vs to folow page clv. As appeareth namely in the gouernement off the church disputed throwghowt the whole book and in that communitie they vsed which is not now Anabaptisticall cc. viij Hether also refer that yt is the vertue off a good law to leaue as litle as may be in the discretion off the iudge xciiij Also that yt ys one thing to be expressed and an other to be commaunded in the scripture xlv Wherupon the argument off autoâ—â—â—ie off the scripture is good 43. 81 But nawght from men especially in diuine matters xviij and xlvij Whether refer that the Godly writers and holie martyre died in error vj. Wheroff the example browght by me off free will is handled 54. an other browght by the D. off the millenaries althowgh he in part slaundereth the ould fathers in that behalf delij Discipline Ciuil THe magistrat ought to be seuerer in punishing offeÌ„ces vnder the gospell then vnder the law cxj. cxviij Neglecters off the word are punishable by the word lxx The law off capitall punishements remaineth xcviij Contemners off the word ought to be put to death lxviij Murtherers cij Incestuous and adulterous persons c. The punishing off the breaches off the second Table by death and not off the first is to begin at the wrong end cxvij Discipline Ecclesiasticall THe Ecclesiasticall discipline is prescribed in the word as the doctrine ccccxl Aswell vnder the gospell as vnder the law ibid. Amplified by comparison off the Ark Tabernacle Temple ccccxliiij Confirmed by examples off Dauid and Salomon which attempted nothing in the church gouernement without the expres word off God ccccxliiij Also off others lxxxvj That the form theroff owght not to be allwaies according to the forme off the coÌ„mon wealth cxxx clix ccxcviij dciiij That yt ys not allwaies conuenient that the form of the commen wealth should beframed to the form off the churche gouernement ccxxvij That the churche gouernement is one off the three markes off the church liij That yt is safely taken from the Apostels times and dauÌ„gerously from the first 500. yeares after them That the externall gouernement off the church is euill distinguished from the spiritual That yt hindereth not the ciuil discipline ij Calling THe callinges vnâ—â— the mynistery are defined off in the word of god For tha 〈◊〉 â— giftes necessary for the gouernement off the church fall into the offices prescribed in yt 462. Where are rehersed the proper giftes wherby they are seuered amoÌ„gest theÌ„ selues This is also shewed by that it is not lawfull to diminish those the lord hath set and therfore not to ad vnto them cccclxiiij Likewise by the demaunde the Pharisies made vnto Iohn ccccxxxvj A calling lawfull and yet extraordinary page xxxâ—â—j The Apostels Prophetes and Euangelistes are euil distinguished by the D. cccvij There can be none off these functions now withowt an extraordinary calling ccciij The same coulde not be a bishop Euangelist and Apostle at once cccxviij Epaphroditus was no Apostle in that sense that S. Peter was ccciiij An Euangelist could not withowt his fault be made a bishop much les could an Apostle 321. Timothe was an Euangelist and no bishop cccxij The abusing off the writers both ould and nue to proue Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes ordinary ministers cccxxvij What maner a men they were which after those sent foorth into the whole world called them selues Apostles cccviij Hereupon we refuse the callinges of Archbishop otherwise called MetropolitaÌ„ and our kinde of bishop ArchdeacoÌ„ and deane as those which taken euen for the very principall church officers haue no ground in the word of God Proued in that they are conteined in nether of the places off the Ephesians or Corinthians where al the ministeries Ecclesiasticall are
the way whom I iudged to be owt to light him a candle whom I saw in this poinct to grope in darcknes And if I did yt sharper then your tast can like off beside that bitter thinges are often wholesomer then sweet yow should not thinck muche to be stricken with the back off the sword which haue smitten others with the edge nor to be lightlie pricked vvith some empaire off your credit vvhich haueÌ„ thrust others throwgh in taking from them so muche as lay iâ— yow al opinion both of godlines and learning Yow doubt whether I meant good faith when I called yow a brother take heed lest in giuing no credit vnto others yow leaue no place for others to giue any to yow And if I had offended in these yet my vnthaÌ„kfulnes can not be great Yow neuer gaue me any thing in my bosome or secretly what yow haue giuen by sound off trump and openly can not be hidden But my reproches and as yow often cal them gybes can not be excused yt is not meet that I should my self sit in iudgement off my owne modestie yt ys vnreasonable also that yow the partie grieued should For as selfeloue may blinde mine eyes and as parents in their children not onely cause me not to see the blemishe but also to thinck yt an ornament so may displeasure dasel yours and cause your iudgement to decline to muche on the one side My conscience doÌ„th not hetherto accuse me in this behalfe others also whom this hath misliked vvil peraduenture be more fauourable if it be first considered that yow account diuers for pleasant speaches which are not therby to auoide that yow could not answer Of which sort is that 767. line 6. and 576. line 23. Secondly if yt be considered that yow take some thinges otherwise then I vvrote them For example where I note your homelie mirth of the curst wife and theef which stole the priests purse to haue bene vvith the baggipe and not vvith ether the harpe or lute yow expound it as thowghe I had taken my self to the countrey wherin yow were born Which verely I ment not but had regard onely to the greke prouerb wherof Tully maketh mention that those vvhich could not come to the honour to handle the harpe vvere content to vse the bagpipe Which is euident in that I oppose countrey not your countrey your mirthe to learned mirth Here also seemeth should be considered how yow haue â—oden vs vvith those reproches vvhich yow accuse me of Wherin not to waste paper in rehersall of all I will onely giue a tast of your later book for that off your other boke in which all know your intemperancie yow denie there is any suche thing because I gathered yt not Adders and Sepentes swarme amongest yovv pag. 50. A mind ful of reuengement 799. Ould rancour 2. Stomackes suche and arrogancy so great 12. Stomacke swelling 109. Boiling 56. Spirit of yowrs bursteth 37. He swelleth like the sea 423. Reueale that lump off arrogancye and ambition 467. deep dissembled hypocricie 467. A face puffed vp with arrogancy and vaineglorie 799. Maner off writing spitefull malitious contemptuous owtragious 12. Arrogant 32. Scoulding 12. pratling 512. lying 467. A shameles and wicked lie 422. Tonges vnnatural 6. VVauering wicked wretched 422. Hoat eloquence 409. Hoate Rhetoricke 45. Cynicall Rhetoricke 391. Lucians Rhetorick 489. Figure off lying 812. VVhether will this venemous mouthe reache 445. VVordes serpentine and viperous 422. He bloweth owt stormeth against me 56. Roreth like a Lyon 423. Off a diuine become a scorneful iester 577. Your veine off gybing and iesting 25. Flowting 91. Arrogant scoffs and frumpes 336. Heathnish floutes and frumpes 470. Boke pestered with moe stoutes and iestes then hardinges VVhat dronken poet prophane Philosopher or boy off grammer schole knoweth not c. 151. Heathnish confuting 25. Babishe abusing scripture 262. VVilfull deprauing 16. Conuicted wickednes 56. The Archbishop hathe cause to thanck yow for your gentilnes 374. A daunsing deuise 337. Suche a mightie man in scripture and so profound in all knowledge pag. 9. I suppose yow vse them as meanes to cast vp your melancholy which yow call zeale 39. But soft man a while yow do but dreame 209. Let him take all these wherof diuers are often repeated and if he be ashamed off them hide them yet for any word off reproche I haue vsed in either off my bookes I will finde both moe and more bitter in his later boke wheroff I haue not once made mention Where also it owght not to be forgotten how his second boke is as heauie with this kind off stuffe as his first yf not haeuier They say it is better to be beaten second because the hardnes off angre is commonly broken vpon the first But yt seemeth the Answerer dronck in more off his angre then he powred forth Lastly let it be considered whether his answers are for the most part so ridiculous that if he which is said to haue wept so muche had replied vpon him he could easelier haue houlden hoat coles in his mouth then haue absteined from those salt sayinges which he so sore complaineth off Here I omit that the scripture doth diuers times vse this kinde off reprehending Also that the most modest spirit off all the auncient writers not permitteth onely but as yt were exhortethe to a mercifull kinde off deriding So that the mind being pure the thing yt self vsed moderately to discredit sin can not be condemned His accusations vvhich touche the cause follow vvhere abbridging the magistrates autoritie often repeted but neuer proued shall be seen in the proper places There shall appeare that I haue browght it into no smaller roum then the vvord off God hath shut it and the best learned and godliest writers both nwe and ould haue plainly taught of yt In which point let yt be also here obserued how there be no wordes so fenced against all cauils vvhich the D. vvill not assay to depraue For vvhere I cited examples to proue that men are said to doo thinges wherof they are the cheif and principall and not the onely doers and amongest them alledged that off Moses which appointed officers by the peoples consent he feareth not to say that I therby pushe at the ciuil magistrat aÌ„d infinuat that the prince may not appoint vnder officers without the peoples election But let him answer what is the instrument wherwith I will not say I pushe but so much as towche yt with my litle fingar ys it because I say those gouernours were chosen with consent of the people the scripture as is after shewed doth manifestly proue yt Or did I euer teache it in pulpit mention it in disputation defend it in talk wherby these wordes might with more likelihood be haled vnto suche a sense what would this man haue done trow yow if I had as Maister Bullinger doth vpoÌ„ that place of Moses concluded that the
the godly reader TO all here in controuersie coÌ„sidering they are barely said without proof yf they be affirmations one yea yf they be denials one nae shall be enowgh seing they are all handled at large in this book Except that off ceremonies vsed in popery wheroff how vntrwly he speaketh when he saith that the reiecting off them standeth vpon this that we may not vse in any wise or in any consideration reteined in the church any thing that hath bene abused vnder the Pope both hath manifestly in my former book and further shall God willing in the later part off my reply appear Answer to his two Tables wheroff the first is intitled off daungerous pointes off doctrine the other off vntrwthes and falsified autorities conteined in my reply AFter I had ended my book and was entred vpon the preface I receiued a treatise called An examination off M. Doctor VVhitgiftes censures conteined in tvvo Tables set before his book intituled the defence of the ansvver to the admoni Wherof as I was glad for the truthes safe which shall receiue strenght by yt so I was sory that I receiued yt no sooner for that it might both haue cased me off muche labor and haue serued me for a good direction in those places which might seem to require a larger defence then the shortnes yt foloweth would receiue And as those off the churche which acknowledg this trwth so I especially for whose support I take yt was written hartely thanck the autor and desire the reader to vse yt for a supply where my answer doeth not satisfy him Whiche answers off myne so far as I haue hetherto gone he shall finde after this sort In the firste Table The first Article becawse yt was not lincked with any particuler cause in controuersie I pourposed to answer in this place but now I will rest in the answer which is made The 2. is answered page xlij line 33. The 3. is answered page xlv line 17. The 4 page liij li. 20. The 5. page lxxxix li. 14. The 6. page xcv l. 29. The 7. page ccxlij li. 21. For the 8. I refer my self to the foresaid treatise especially considering that I haue passed by that whole Tractate The 9. is answered page ccccxlviij lin 6. The 14. page ccclj li. 28. The 15. page ccclxxiij li. 37. In the second Table The first is answered page viij li. 22. The 2. page ix li. 26. The 3. page lxij li. 21. The 4. page lxxxij lin 37. The 5. page xcj. li. 4. The 6. page clx ij l. 29. The 7. page cxcj li 1. In the 8. that part touching subtil suppression is answered page cclij li. 12 the other lieth vpon Illiricus whom I named the autor off that report yf yt be not in the Code The 9. is answered page cclv li. 16. The 10. page cclvj li. 27. The 11. page cclxxvj li. 27. The 12. and 17. page cclxxvij li. 17. The 13. page cclxxx li. 12. The 14. page cclxxxj li. 4. The 15. page cclxxxij li. 7. The 16. page ccc li. 33. The 18 pa. cclxâ—x li. 34. To the 19. and 20. I answer as to the 8. off the first table The 22. is answered page cccclxxxj li. 18. The 22. ccccxxxvj li. 12. The 23. page ccccxciij li. 33. The 24. page diiij li. 1. The 25. pa. dxij li 28. The 26. page dxxxiiij li. 11. The 27. dlxx li. 15. The 28. page dcxxv li. 26. The 29. page dcxxvj li. 36. The 30. page dcxv li. 4. The 31. page dcxxvij li. 29. The 32. is answered before in the Epistle The 33. page dcxlj li. 13. The 34. page dcxliij li. 33. The 35. page dcxlv li. 1. The 36. page dxxiij li. 5. The 37. page dcliiij li. 1. The rest in both the tables remain to be answered in the second part off my reply The replye vnto the answer pag. j. c. FOr the foure fyrst sectyons being either false accusations bare repetitions off my wordes or profes off thinges which I haue set downe and confesse I will not answer His fifte section answerethe not any thinge to diuers reasons which I haue set downe to proue that this cause can not be charged with disorder whose whole worke is that nothing be donne owte off place owte off tyme besides the boundes off euerie one His seuerall callinge in the 6. sectyon 4. pag. he falling to railing doothe gwilfully passe by the reason which I haue alledged why this doctine which we mainteine can not be thowght enemy vnto princes seing yt was a freende to princes when princes where enemies vnto it For him selfe can not denie but the gouernement by elders the choise off the ministers by the churche the moste off those thinges which he especially supposeth to haue warre with the ciuile magistrate and are in controuersie betweene vs were in the tymes off the Apostells when they being troden vnder feete off the ciuile Magistrate did neuer lifte vpp their heele againste his power And where he saithe it is no plaine dealing to drawe that to this cause which is trewly spoken off the gospell he needed not to haue charged vs with wante of plaine dealing seing we offer to shew the discipline to be a parte off the gospell and therfore to haue a comon cause so that in the repulse of the discipline the gospell receiueth a checke That the discipline off the church is not in the nomber of those thinges which are varyed is disputed in the second tractate and in her seueral partes thorowe out the whole booke That the distinction off the common welthe and the churche hathe bene and owght to be kepte of al men which haue spokeÌ„ or written with any Iudgement shall be shewed in the 20. Tractate and therfore althowghe the answerer doo a 100. tymes repeete this thinge in bare affirmacions yet the reader shall once for all looke for the answer off thes thinges in those places In his 8. section page 1. he speaketh off the authoritie off the magistrate vppon no occasion to no purpose with greate wordes with no proofe Then as thowghe I had written in vnknowne figures as the priestes of Aegypte he complaineth of my obscuritie and that he can not vnderstande what I meane wheras I coulde hardely haue vsed greater light of speache if I had bente my selfe therunto For I proue the singuler benefite that the discipline bringeth to the comon welthe for that by the Ecclesiasticall censures off admonition reprehension suspension c. the lesser faultes off lying vncomely iesting and cholericke speaking being met with all the passage is stopped againste the greater faultes off thefte adultery and murder Wherin obserue his vnfaithfull dealing which feining him selfe not to vnderstande that which my wordes doo fullie sounde doothe notwithstanding forge thinges off me wheroff there is not the smallest ynkling For here vppon he asketh whether I thinke not the punishemet of thefte and murther sharpe enowghe with diuers other which folow vnto all
off the church nor disturber off the peace but pleased god and lefte a notable example to all posteritie off Kinges and Queenes that they should not for any respecte of kindred league or allie suffer any suche pollution in their landes The same also might be fall vnto them in gatheringe off the booke for it maye well be that there purpose was by that tempere off popishe ceremonies with the gospell partly the easelier to drawe the papistes to the gospell whilest fearing that they would not frame them selues to yt yt should be some what framed vnto them partely to redeme peace therby the breach wheroff they feared might haue ensued off suche a perfecte and throwgh chaunge as the sinceritie off the gospell required Yff this were there purpose they were studious of peace and buildinge of the churche but yet erred in the meane so it appeareth that it being graunted vvhich the A. demaundeth yet my gathering off his argument is iustified To the 37. sect pag. 30. WHie should yow note here that Cyprians place was abused by the Papistes yt is besides your purpose and contrary to the law to leaue your matche withe whom your are collered and take yow to a stander by For so vnhappelie is it come to passe that the papistes whose disorders and corruption off the discipline off Christ were here oppugned haue founde yow their champion to fight for them whilest they looke on And to what ende seruethe this headlesse arrowe not shott but picked owt against the Papistes They are god be praised substantially conuinced off the corruption off this place off Cyprian by diuerse learned men so that this bare affirmation that Cyprian speakethe not off the vsurped authoritie off the Bishopp off Rome besides yt is owt off season dothe rather moue laughter and confirme the enemie in his obstinacie then giue him remedie against his error But what weighethe this word for in our language is it not a causall and rendreth a reason off that which goethe before Whiche yow haue therfore by all lykelihoode lefte owt that this poore shifte might haue some colour the reste is answered before Vnto the next I answere that yt shall appeare when I come to that place whether there be suche reasons or no. In the next sectioÌ„ he chargeth me in great wordes withe vntruthe and askethe me where I finde in the â—3 page this argument that by that there was one offeuerie congregation he prouethe that there was one ouer a whole prouince To whom I answere that in that he concludethe an Archebishopp ouer a prouince vpon Ignatius places whiche speake off a Bishop in euerie churche he makethe the same argument whiche I haue made To the next page 32. being bare denials and false accusations I answere not Vnto the next sect pag. 33. LEauing his vntrue accusations I answere that where he saithe that the case off Luther and Zuinglius off Circumcision and preaching vnto gentilles which I alledged are not like for that they be substantiall pointes of religion and these be not it is his oulde cuckoes songe For we offer to proue this also off the substance off Religion And I browght the examples onely to shew that to be vntrue which he goethe abowt to perswade that all those which contende where the gospell is preached are to be holden for disturbers Thother difference which he placeth in that Luther and Zuinglius did that which they did in strininge abowt the SacrameÌ„t by consent off theire seuerall magistrates althoughe he dothe not make that appeare yet I aske him what Zuinglius c. should haue done iff the Magistrate would not haue suffred him to answere should he haue suffred the truthe to be destitute off his defence Where he citeth owt off Zuinglius that the gospell is a sworde to deuide the faithfull and therfore that this doctrine which hathe made a diuision in the church can not be good I answere that althoughe he might well saye it to the Anabaptistes and that yt so comethe to passe for the most parte yet that can be no generall rule consideringe that the preaching that circumcision was not necessarie although it deuided those off the church which beleued it from those that did not beleue it yet those which did not beleue it did not ther fore cease to be off the churche and off the numbre off the faithfull The Sermon which our Sauior Christ had amongest his disciples and those that beleued in him touching that his fleshe was the true meate and his bloude the true drinke which who soeuer did not eate and drinke could not haue life in hym did make suche a cut amongest the Disciples that all sauing twelue departed from our Sauiour Christ Yff they made a full departure and Apostasie it is euident that the gospell cureth euen those which be in the church cleane from it yff they did not vtterlie forsake the gospell but offended at that sermon were not as before dailie folowers off our sauior Christ yet it is cleare that that doctrine of the gospell did make apartition betwene the twelue and those other which went there waies in that they beleued that sermon which the other did not they were taught and the other offended Wherupon it foloweth that ether the doctrine which our Sauiour Christ preached was not the truthe or els the truthe may sometimes deuide the faithfull amongest themselues I could cite diuerse other examples bothe owt off the Actes off the Apostles and owt off S. Iohn but these shall suffise to shew the vanitie off M. D. reason And iff he will saye that iff he err M. Zuinglius errethe withe him he is vecelie vnworthy the name off a Deuine that carethe not how ofte he fallethe so he maye fall withe companie Howbeit I haue shewed howe M. Zuinglius sayinge may be vpholden and yet make nothinge for the confirmation off that which he would proue To the next pa. 36. IT fareth withe M. D. as withe malefactors whiche hauing left somethinge behinde them wherby they may be knowen for feare off that whiche foloweth renounce it vtterlie to be theirs But that the conclusion off all thes articles is as I haue set downe that is to saye that the authors off the admonition are either Anabaptistes or in the waye to Anabaptisme albeit he here denie yt I reporte me to the conscience off all those that shall reade him And let his vvordes be considered vvhich be that Anabaptiisme is almost plainely professed in the admonition and so be iudged vvhether I haue trulie gathered his meaning yea or no. I haue spoken so plainelie in that the Answerer maketh so straunge and weroff he requireth more open speache that I can not speake plainlier I vse the wordes which are worne in all schooles and writers which haue occasion to speake off these matters I gaue that which I said light by examples Notwithstandinge he can not see how the Ministerie off England maye be commonlie and for the moste parte vnlawfull and
abowt to make men beleue that I haue some thinge that I would not haue men vnderstand And althoughe he confesse he vnderstand it not yet he reprehendeth it and so it commeth to him which S. Iude chargethe the false teachers withe in his tyme that he speaketh euill off that he knoweth not He asketh here for examples and they stick still in his throate vnswalowed and vndigested whiche the admonition gaue him when he hathe ouercome those then let him aske for more examples And wheras he ascribethe as a great absurditie to vs that we make the order off chusinge the minister before the eldershipp and gouernment be established somewhat diuerse from that which is before putting this florishe vppon it that we allowe off all thinges owt off order thoughe against our owne order so it be against common order I will not goo abowte to confute that here or to shew what good cause there is off this diuersitie it being sufficiently declared in that booke whiche togither withe the right forme off gouernment commaunded owt off the worde off god notethe the disorders off our churche onelie I will aske M. D. whether the consecration as it is called off the Archbishops and Bishopps at the first entrie off the Queenes maiestie vvas the same altogither vvithe that vvhiche hathe bene sithens And iff there were a difference betwene that and this then in this great desire off his to stricke he care not how nor after What sorte his strooke is fallen vppon him selffe and vpon those whom he vndertaketh to defend That the wordes off the admonition haue not that sense which is here ascribed vnto yt I haue shewed in the proper place neither will I touche it here althoughe the A. set it twentie tymes before me Yff he haue any thing to saye against that whiche I haue said there it shall be considered Althoughe here the D. was taken eueÌ„ in the verie acte of false coyninge yet he shameth not to denie yt and withe that bloudnes and foreheade that he is readie also to accuse him that taketh him withe the manner He biddeth me peruse more diligentlie the wordes off M. Bullingar I haue perused them and set them downe first in latin and then in Englishe and iff I haue not turned them truelye shew wherin I haue faulted and iff they be truelie turned then I demaunde againe where these wordes be founde in any of those leaues of Bullinger whiche yow quote That they could not teache truelie because they had great liuinges Yow saye they be word for word there shew but the same sense or meaninge that is to saye that this off M. Bullingers that the Anabaptistes said they could not teache the truthe vvhiche had any liuinge is all one withe that whiche yow haue set downe that they can not teache the truthe which haue great liuinges And iff yow can not shew it your falsification remaineth increased withe the open facing of an vntruthe In deede if yow can put owt all men eyes aÌ„d take away froÌ„ vs our senses and all light off grammer and off the knowledge off signification and proprietie off wordes it will not be impossible for yow withe suche confident speaches as yow vse to make vs beleue that all is turned vpside downe and that the earth hangeth ouer our heades and the heauens are vnderneath our feete but yow deceiue your selffe if yow thincke that yovve can beare downe the truthe so or that yow can hide falshoode by adding another vnto yt wherby it is made bigger and more easie to be sene then before The place added owt off M. Zuinglius Ecclesiastes maketh nothing to the saluinge off your falshoode and how farre our men as it pleasethe yow to call them are farre from all suche sayinges I haue before declared Yff yow shew as yow saye that I do giue to litle vnto the magistrate I will confesse my faulte and confesse my felse detter vnto yow for yt As for the cleanelines off my termes which I vse they are not so foule as the thinges wherunto they are applied and the prophet Malachy and S. Paule vsed them in honester matters then these are so that iff the phrase off the Apostles and Prophetes be manerly enoughe there is lesse godlinesse in yow which in me houe thus accused them off inciuilitie Vnto the nexte section pag. 40. I answere not To the 44. sect pag. 41. I graunt the corruptions off the churche of England to be suche that man in absteininge from the pollutions theroff owght not so seuer him selfe from those open assemblies wherein the eternall worde off the Lorde God is preached and the Sacramentes administred althoughe not in that puritie which they owght to be But I saye againe that the name off conuenticles is to light and conteÌ„ptuous for those meetiÌ„ges For here in is to be coÌ„sidered for what cause they departed Which was not for the mis likinge off any thinge which Christ ordeyned but throughe the mislike off that which Antechrist had browght in not as the Anabaptistes did and the D. surmiseth they did for that they iudged them selues pure and others vnpure but that they feared that their presence where suche corruptions were should be allowance or confirmation off them not so muche forthe hatred off the estate off the churche off England as forthe loue that they had to a better nor so muche for the hatred off the Ministers whiche were vniustly set ouer them as for the loue off those which were vnlawfullie by the Bishoppes taken from them Thedorete declareth how the Catholikes which mainteined the faithe of the Nicenc councell throughe affectioÌ„ to their teachers deuided and seuered them selues into seuerall coÌ„paines will the. A. faie that all their meetinges were conuenticles iff he do he speakethe farre otherwise off them then Theodorete and yet that diuision continued 86. yeares And iff this be off no authoritie whith yow yet I would gladlie vnderstande what yow vvill answere to the sentence off M. Caluin which yow haue alleadged your selffe pag. â—1 where he saithe This honor is meete to be giueÌ„ to the vvorde off god and to the Sacramentes that vvhersoeuer vve see the vvorde off God truelie preached and the Sacraments vvithovvt superstition Ministred there vve maye conclude vvithovvt all controuersie the church to be Iff this meeting withe some disorder be the church off god how is it a conuenticle Besides that it ought to haue bene considered off yow whether they continued in that diuision and whether being taught and shewed their error they did obstinatelie perseuer according to whiche circunstance that off Augustine owght to be expounded for not euerie one which departethe for any cause whatsoeuer from that vvhiche is the churche off God by and by is to be accoumpted no membre of the churche For seing that heresie is more heynous then a scisme and yet heresie dothe not cut a man from the churche onlesse he remaine obstinate muche lesse can a scisme cause forthwith
at large Vnto the fowre nexte sections I answer nothing sauing that where in the seconde secâ— pa. 5â— he saith that master Caluin in his booke against the Anabaptistes affirmethe that the churche as towching the external pollicie can not be perfecte I doo assure my selffe that as in other places so heere he hathe vntrewly saide off Maister Caluin And yt cannot bâ— vnknowne but in Moses and the Apostlâ—â— times ther was a perfecte patruÌ„ of the owtwarde gouernernment off the churches bothe giuen off the lorde and receiued off the churches neither can there be any parte of the owtwarde gouernement off the churche assigned by the answerer which draweth any suche impossibilitie withe yt as he imagineth And iff he saye that ther were faultes committed againste those perfecte patrones that is not to the purpose For the faultes off particular persons doo no more ouerthrowe the perfection off the gouernment whiche was receiued then the faultes off the officers in our churche againste the lawes theroff are to be imputed vnto the lawes them selues wherby that gouernment standeth And as for the examples off the churches off Corinthe and Galatia whiche he alledgeth they rather make against him For that disorder whiche the Apostle chargeth them withe being a slyding backe and falling awaye from that estate wherin they were firste off all set by the Apostell argueth that there was a time when the contrarie off those disorders had place in their churches In the nexte section he alledgeth diuers examples to proue that enemies one withe another conspire against the trewthe whiche no man do which and where I shewed that the churches friÌ„des may doo some thiÌ„ges which some of the churches enemies doo against him whiche in that the admonitors doo certaine thinges with the Papiste and Anabaptistes woulde giue to vnderstande that they are conspired with theÌ„ he answerethe that the admonitors conspire withe the enemies off the churche in thinges whiche are againste the churche which is a manifest begging off that whiche is in controuersie Towching that which I sayde he hathe tawght that there is no commaundement in the scripture to put heretikes to deathe althowghe he denie that euer he did so yet beside that he mainteineth the same in the seconde treatise where he leaueth yt in the libertie off the magistrate whether he will doo yt or no and reiecteth all the lawes off God prouided in that behalfe as Iewis he there be moo witnesses off this then his bare deniall is hable to beare downe to whose knowledge I wil so reporte me in this behalfe that if they confirme not the same I refuse not to beare the blame off that reporte where he saieth there is no cause that he shoulde be better thought of emonge the papistes which teache and practise the contrarie althoughe the Papistes abuse this doctrine to the horrible murther off the church yet the doctrine is the doctrine off god and not the Papistes and yow by staying the course off yt nourishe them to the daye off slawghter and shedding off the bloude off the sainctes off god vvhich is their feaste and vvhiche they so greatly delight in and longe after In althat which foloweth vnto the first tractate vvhich beginneeth page 62. there is nothing worthe the answere And as for that whole tractate because yt perteineth to the question off lordeshipp and dominion off the Archebishopps ouer the bishops and off the Bishopps ouer the reste off the Ministers yt shall be referred to the beginning off the 8. Tractate where the answerer shall receiue his replie What authoritie the churche hathe in making off orders Chapter 1. pag. 77. THe playster vvherwithe the answerer woulde heale his vnskilfulnes in the expounding off tollerating in the churche by these wordes placing in the churche will not cleane For to let pas the meanig off the admonition whiche he shoulde haue shewed iff he mainteine his answer by yt and not as he doothe contrary to all lawe of disputation bid me proue that their meaning was not so as he supposeth I saie to let that pas yt appeareth by bis plaine vvordes that this exposition was not framed in regarde off the meaning off the admonition but for that he knew not what difference there was betwene placinge in the churche and tollerating in the churche For himselffe coÌ„fesseth that this is the principall grounde of their booke that those thinges onely shoulde be placed in the churche whiche the lorde himself in his worde comÌ„aundethe and ascribing this iudgemeÌ„t vnto them he afterwarde expoundeth that to be asmuche as if they shoulde haue saide that nothing shulde be tolerated c. yff this be their principall grounde that nothing be placed c as the A. confessethe and placing in the churche is not the same that tollerating in the churche as he doothe also confesse yt must folowe that the principall grounde off the admonition was not as he saithe that nothing shoulde be tollerated in the churche not commaunded by the worde And his wordes doo discharge the admonition off any suche assertion For in that he saithe that their meaning was so farr as he coulde gather that nothing shoulde be placed c. yt is manifeste that in saying nowe that they mente that nothinge shoulde be tolerated c. he chargeth them farther then he was then hable to gather off their booke Afterwarde he chargethe me withe an vnaduised and a popishe assertion for that I say that many thinges are commaunded in the scripture vvhich are not expressed in yt He neded not to haue trauailed far to haue seene how far I am from poperie in in this pointe iff he woulde haue but considered the wordes which folowe in the same diuision that god hathe set before vs in his vvorde a perfect patrone off his churche But I was at leaste ouerseene in this kind off speache Alas iff he woulde vnderstande his grammer and acknowledge that which simple scholers off the gramÌ„er schoole doo well knowe that their is difference betweene expressed and conteined betweene expressed and included betweene expressed and implied betweene expressed and gathered He woulde neuer haue troubled the reader with suche folies And as for that which I set downe I did yt vppon Good groundes For who is there which knoweth not that thes thinges that there is one essence and three persons in the godheade that there is in our Sauiour Christe one parson and two natures are not expressed but onely conteined in the worde off God And iff proofe must be had off thinges which is to greate shame for one that cariethe the title off a diuine to be ignorant off let the answerer know that lerned diuines speake afte this sorte Their wordes be thes Off the father of the Sonne and holy ghoste there is one nature one essence and thre persons In Christ our lorde there be tvvo natures and one person and many other thinges vvhich the catholike churche doothe receiue rather layde oute by the interpretation
off the Scriptures then expressed in the vvordes off the Scripture Here the answerer may lerne that certaine off the cheiff pillers off our Religion by the Iudgement off this councell are not expressed in the worde off God and yet notwithstanding bothe conteined in the worde off God and commaunded to be beleued And where he saithe that he couÌ„ntethe that expressed in the scripture when yt is either in manifest wordes conteined or theroff gathe red by necessary collection I answer that I suppose that there was neuer writer holie nor prophane that euer spake so and that yt byddethe defiance bothe to de vinitie and humanitie being forged as yt is to be feared contrary to his owne knowledge onely that he might giue some colour vnto that absurdytie which he woulde so gladlye fasten on me I saie that it is against his owne knowledge forasmuche as in his former booke and euen in the nexte diuision which is in the 78 page off this his later booke he confessethe this difference off being expressed in the worde and gathered off it which is the same in effecte which I haue saide For he saithe that nothing owght to be tollerated in the churche ' c. onles yt be expresly conteined in the worde off god or maye manifestly therof be gathered Here he plainely opposeth as member off one diuision expressely conteined and manifestly gathered now in this later booke cleane contrarily he maketh gathered to be a part of expressed And in an other place off his former booke as it appeareth in the 24. page off his booke he saithe and none off these circumstances are commaunded in the scripture or by necessarie collection theroff may be gathered Where he supposeth some thinge necessarie to saluation which is not commaunded namely which may be necessarylie gathered of the scripture And iff those wordes commaunded in the scriptures which are generall will not conteine al that which is necessary as his diuision teacheth how much les will thes wordes expressed in the scriptures compas them and iff commaunded and forbidden be all one with expressed as he here affirmeth then did he absurdely to make gathered off the scriptures to be an opposite member vnto commaunded That which I sayed off the argument off authoritie off a man to be neither good affirmatiuely nor negatiuely farther then to induce thereader into somelikinge or mislikinge and not to haue force to compell is apparaunt vnto al which haue any sparcke of iudgement That which is brougâ— out off Aristotle is to no purpose and it maketh also against the A. Forasmuche as where Aristotle saithe that credite is to be giuen to him that is cunninge he speaketh off thinges which haue a likelihoode and may be disputed off on bothe sydes and not of thinges which are to be receiued without gainesaying And I merueile that the A. will not see that amongest men the cunningest in any profession haue in diuerse thinges bene off those which followed them iustly founde fauls with And if he will bothe sticke to Aristotle and interpretâ— him as he dothe that a man ought to beleue euerie one in that as to and profession where in he is conninge then euerie learned Deuine in his profession is to be beleued whatsoeuer he saithe Which beinge absurd and seinge it hathe bene before shewed that an argumeÌ„t of the authoritie of maÌ„ affirmatiuely is not good let vs holde that for somuche as maÌ„ caÌ„not come through his infirmitie vnto the perfectioÌ„ of any thinge which reason being assigned of me is vntouched of the A. and forasmuche as the giftes off god are giuen in measure and not in perfection that an argument off â—he authoritie off man can not enforcevs and that it is proper vnto the Aposties and Prophetes whom the Lorde had chosen to be his notaries and whose handes he helds continually to be without the hazarde off errour To the places which I alledged owte off the worde off god to proue that an argument drawne of the authoritie off the scripture negatiuely is good he answereth that the examples which I bringe be of thinges of great importance and forbidden in other places of the Scripture I graunt they are so and that maketh much against hym for that the Lorde hauinge this aduantage against the Israelites off charginge them that they had doone contrarie vnto his commaundement chose rather to saye after this sorte that they had doone that vvhich he had not commaunded therby to teache his to hange vppon his mowthe And the answerer owght to haue considered that the reason is generall whiche the prophetes vse which otherwise shoulde be no reason at all And it maye be shewed that the same manner off argument hathe bene vsed in thinges which are not off the substance off saluacion or damnation and wheroff there was no commaundement to the contrary In Iosuah the children of Israell are charged by the Prophete that they asked not counsaile off the mouthe off the lorde when they entred into couenant with the Gabeonites and yet that couenant was not made contrarie vnto anie comÌ„aundemeÌ„t of god For howsoeuer yt seemeth to some that vpon the wordes off Moses they owght to haue bene put to deathe being of those nations which dwelte in the inheritaunce off the people off god yet iff yt be considered what the causes were why they might not enter in to league with them which was lest they dwellinge amoÌ„gest them shoulde drawe them to a false worship of god yt will not be harde to vnderstande but that withe condition off yelding themselues bothe to the subiection of the Iewes and to their institution in the Religion of god as thes did they might be receiued There was in deede difference betweene these nations which dwelled in the lande off the inheritaunce off the children of Israel and which dwelt rounde abowte them For where the Iewes might make league with the nations rounde abowte them withowt anie their submission vnto Religion they coulde not doo so with the Cananites c. And where in other nations after peace refused the children off Israell hauing taken a cytie owght to kepe a liue women and children in these ether resistinge them or not submitting themselues vnto the seruice of god it was not lawful to spare ether wemeÌ„ or children But that it was simplie vnlawful for theÌ„ to make league with them vvith any condition I thinke yt can not be shewed for theÌ„ Iosue aÌ„d the princes shoulde haue doone euil to haue kepte their othe with them after they had vnderstanded their frawde cosidering that all othes made againste the comÌ„aundement of god are to be brokeÌ„ And if it be saide that Iosue and the princes did euil in keping their othe the approbation off that facte is apparant in an other place where the vengeance for the lorde fell vppon all Israell by famyn and vpon the housse off Saul particulerly by executing those off his familie because the gabeonites had bene coÌ„trary to the tenure of the
the cōparisō is made would haue cleared this margēt To the Diuision 4. pag. 84. The Admonition saide that nothinge ought to be established in the church vvhich is not commaunded by the vvorde off God the A offended hewith condemned this sayinge the replie shewethe how the saying of the A. is maintenable namely for that thoughe there be not expresse wordes for euery thinge which may be established yet there are generall commaundementes whereby all thinges which can fall into any Ecclesiasticall consultation are to be directed The A. to mainteine his sodeine and vnaduised condemnation saithe that in those thinges which are varied by time and other circumstances and whereoff there is no precise determination in the worde off god yt is enoughe that they be not against the worde of god So that this is the difference betwene the Adm. and him they will haue those thinges not onely not to be against the worde but to be grounded vpon the worde and he saiethe it is enough they be not against the worde Wherin iff there were no diuersitie the Ans is in fault which in his greedines off findinge fault condemneth that in the Adm. which he is constreined to allowe off But in deed they are not all one For albeit it can not be but that which is not agreable vnto the worde off God is against the worde off God and off the otherside that which is not against the worde off God is agreable vnto yt yet he that so saithe that certaine thīges must be doone not agaīst the worde that he wil not also accorde that they should be doone accordinge to the worde gyuethe thereby to vnderstand that there is some star or light off reason or learninge or other helpe whereby some act may be well doone and acceptably vnto God in which the worde off God was shut out and not called to counsaile as that which either coulde not or neede not giue any direction in that behalfe Nowe in this later boocke and in this diuision he saithe that nothinge ought to be doone in the churche but accordinge to the true meaninge off the worde And afterwarde saithe that he agreethe vnto this sentence off mine that in makinge orders and ceremonies off the churche it is not lavvfull to doo vvhat men liste but they are bovvnde to follovve the generall rules off the scripture that are giuen to be a squire whereby those are to be squared out And thus in the end the A. is constreined to yelde him selfe to that which he hathe before founde fault with for if nothinge may be doone in makinge orders off the churche but accordinge to the generall rules off the scripture and those generall rules be commaundementes it folowethe that nothinge may be doone in makinges orders for the church but accordinge to the commaundement off god Which is that which the Adm. did set downe And wheras he woulde make the reader belieue that we haue giuen backe in that we confesse certeine orders may be established in the churche which are not expressed in the worde off God I haue shewed howe the Adm. is very vntruely charged with that sentence there beinge neither the same nor the valew off those wordes to be founde in it This therefore beinge agreed on off bothe sides we might haue here shut vp these controuersies sauinge that the A. holdinge this doctrine in wordes dothe notwithstandinge in deede continue the siedge against it in that all those places which I haue alledged for proof off it he doothe by shamefull and open corruptions essaye to ouerthowe And to the first place whiche is that the wisdome of god in his worde doothe teache men euery good way and therefore the way which ought to be taken in the establishement of orders and ceremonies in the churche he asketh me in great scorne what that maketh to the purpose in deede to proue that which he vntruly and contrarie to my playne wordes in his answer to al my argumētes surmiseth to be my pourpose that is that no lawe ought to be made in the churche which is not expressed in the worde I say to proue this I graunt it is not sufficient but to proue that all thinges owght to be doone in the church not onely not against the com̄aundement but also accordinge to the commaundement of God which was that which I propounded and he denied it is more sufficient then he is hable to answer His answer also which supposeth this sentence directed vnto princes and magistrates onely belike in that he saithe my sonne is vttered withowte all iudgemēt consideringe that Salomon by that title speaketh vnto all the children off god of what callinge soeuer they be as it is manifest by the writer to the Hebrues To the next argument grounded vppon the authoritie off Saint Paul which is nothinge can be doone to the glorie off God withowt ebedience all thinges doone withowt the Testymonye off the worde off God are withowt obedience therefore nothinge doone withowt the Testymonye off the worde off God can be doone to the Glory off God to this argument which he calleth vndigested he answereth by repetition off my wordes and that Saint Paul◠meaninge is that nothinge be doone against the worde Which how absurde an answer it is when bothe that is the question and I haue expressly vrged the Testimonye off the worde off God to be required let all men Iudge The next argument which he saithe is euill framed is apparant Wheresoeuer faithe is wantinge there is synne in euery action not commaunded faithe is wantinge therfore in euery action not commaunded there is sinne To this be answereth that the wordes off Saint Paul not to be off faithe signifie that we ought to doo nothinge against our conscience Which both is very absurde and ouerthroweth the sense off the Apostle For hauinge shewed that he which doothe any thing doubtingly is condemned he assigneth immediately this to be the reason because he dooth it not off faithe So that the Apostle calleth that doone not off faithe which is doone doubtingly But he is sayde to doo agaynst conscience which hauinge his knowledge and persuasion setled goeth agaynst yt And where he saithe that the wordes going before which are Blessed is he that condemneth not hym selffe in the thing vvhich he allovvethe do proue that sense off his it is spoken withowt all consideration off the place For how commeth yt to passe that he rather referrethe these wordes off Saint Paule not to be off faithe to this sentence which is farther remoued then to that off doing with dowbte which goeth immediately before yea wherwith it is coupled in the same verse withe a coniunction causall And althowghe the reason sometime be referred vnto that which goethe farther off yet that is bothe rarely and then when by no meanes yt can agree withe that wich goeth immediatelie before Which can not be here considering especially that it could not be vnknowen but that he which dothe against his conscience sinneth wherby the
are pleased with that which is doone as when they are displeased And therfore in that signification which Saint Paul and our sauiour Christ before him take this word offense the churche owghte to prouide that there be no offense giuen to one alone His thirde exception that I added this worde especiallie to the texte is a mere cauill For althowghe I vsed that worde more then is in the texte yet I bothe kepte the meaning and layde yâ— more open vnto the symple reader And wher he saâ—th that the Apostell would haue men more carefull off offending those whiche are not yet come to the churche then those which be off yt yt is altogether vntrew and not onely againste the meaning off the Apostle but against the generall rule off loue wherin thes degrees are assigned that we leuing all men should especially loue those which are members off the same bodye with vs Whereupon yt foloweth that the fruictes off loue wheroff this is one off the principall that we â—iue no occasion off offense owght rather to be performed toward them off the churche then towardes straungers And yâ— being certaine which S. Paul saithe that we muste doo Good vnto all but especially to those which are off the how shoulde of faithe yt muste needes folow off the contrary that we owght not to doo hurte vnto any but especially vnto those which are off the howshoulde off faithe And this degree doothe our Sauiour Christe him selfe note when he thundering againste offences addethe this as an encrease and an higher stepp in synÌ„e if be yt doone againste one of those which beleue in hym And where he saithe that straungers may be so withdrawne wheras there can be no suche feare off those whiche are alredie members off the churche he speaketh bothe contrarie to all experience and directly contrary to the Apostell which disputing in this case of offense saithe that the weake brother perisheth throwghe thes offences Laste off all yff he require authoritie Oecumenius a maÌ„ myche liked of the answerer thiÌ„cketh that he had an especiall care to those that be alredy members of the churche and Bucer hathe a longe treatise wherin he proueth that if either the Papistes or those that are members off the churche muste be offended that yt is more agreable to prouide againste the offence off the churche then off the papistes The seconde rule he aloweth but admittethe no competent Iudges of yt but suche as made the orders as the papistes whiche alowing off the Scriptures take them selues onely able to iudge off the sense off them And if there were but some few as he saithe where as there are many thowsansandes and those all priuate men where there be which haue charge yet I wolde know of the A. whether the spirite off God is tyed so ether to multitude or to autoritie that bothe a fewe and priuate may not espie faultes in the orders which haue bene deuised by many and publike persons To the thirde rule that all shoulde be doone vnto edifying he saithe that yt can not be applied to all thinges generally vsed in the churche but to praiers tounges c. specified in that chapter as if it were not the ordinary of the Apostell to proue the particulers by the generall and so to conclude that the exercises off praing singinge c. shoulde be doone to edifying because all things muste so be doone And where he woulde seeme to â—ye the Signification off edifying onely vnto instruction in the churche yt is manifeste that the Apostell carying yt also vnto thinges indifferent will haue this to be the rule off our priuate actions myche more off suche publike actions as I haue before declared And the wordes which saincte Paule vseth doo not require that ceremonies and orders of the churche shoulde edifye as he surmisethe yt is sufficient to come vnder this rule off the Apostle that they tende to edifyinge and he can not be ignorant that yt is one thinge to builde and another thinge to tende to building For the 4 rule which ys that they be doone to the glory of God he will acknowledge yt to be no rule to direct ceremonies by because yt is a rule to guide all actions whatsoeuer which ys a very straunge argument that because yt is a rule to guide all actions therfore yt is no rule to direct the churches And yff this be a sufficient cause off refusing yt as impertinent to this purpose then that rule which he off thes fowre dothe onely allwe as of that onely which he him selffe browght muste also be iudged impertinent to this purpose and so thruste owte off the doores with her followes For there is nothing whatsoeuer a man doeth whether priuately or publickly in matters either ciuill or Ecclesiasticall but he owght to kepe this rule that yt be doone in order and in comelines Where vppon my wordes And yet so left to the order off the church that it doo nothing agaynst rhe rules aforesayde he noteth that I am coÌ„trary vnto my selfe and contrary vnto the the Adm. Why dooth he note not the coÌ„trarietye Are these contrary Yt is not enough that the orders off the church be not against the vvord onles they be grovvnded vppon the vvord aÌ„d this that they are so left to the order off the church that yt doo nothing contrary to the rules aforesaide Declaring my minde at large before I haue in this last sentence put lesse then was in the other but there is nothing contrary I neuer dissented from him in that he saith the church may in making orders doo nothing agaynst the word but in this that he by reiecting the Admonition denieth that they ought to be cut owt according to the word and commaundement off God I bothe did and doo still dissent from him The article off the Duche church as yt is set downe off M. Beza we doo fully agree with which is that vve ovvght to esteme thinges indifferent by the circumstance off time place and person vveighed by the skoles off the vvord off God. There are diuers thinges besides in this diuision that are nothinge to the pourpose and vnworthy any answere And amongest others what an vntollerable mockerie off the reader is yt that where yt hath bene shewed that the wordes off the Admonition not commaunded in the scripture owght to be taken for that which is either particularly or in the generall commaunded he notwithstanding saith that peraduenture we may shift yt in saying that they ment either generally or particularly Wherin in steade that he should haue proued that they ment not so he maketh a paraduenture off that which hath bene before in so many wordes disputed Diuision 6. pag. 89. IN that yow wounde vpp the lordes daye withe other thinges which yow accounte merely indifferent neither set any marke in the foreheade off it whereby we might vnderstande that yow had anie other estimation off it then off the reste al
men doo see that I had Good cause to charge yow as I did And euen now yowr answer which yow make is expresly againste that which yow haue written before For yow affirme that the lordes daie is in the nomber off those which not to obserue or once to call in question is meere madnes But in your former booke after recitall of the lordes daye and other thinges which yow accounte indifferente yow close vp which this sentence that there is none so simple which vnderstandethe not that the churche hathe authoritie in those matters Yf yt be mere madnes for the churche not to obserue the lordes daye how hathe the churche authoritie in that case And yf yt maye not once moue question off it how can yt take order in yt your manner off speeche wherby yow would goo betweene thes two sentēces and helpe to set at one suche manifest contrarieties are absurde for yow saie that the continuance off the lordes daye so longe doothe proue yt necessarie to be obserued and yet add that yt maye be altered vpon great and especiall considerations wheras if it be necessary to be obserued it may not be altered And if yt maye be altered then it is not necessarie Wherby appearethe how trewly I gathered off your wordes which yow can not auoyde withowte suche senseles speeches Against that which I saide off Ecclesiasticall discipline instituted in the 18 off S. Mathew for contemners and neglecters off the worde and common praiers yt is saide and saide with greate wordes that that place is to be vnderstanded off secret and particuler faultes and not off open and knowne Wheras yt is more then manifest that if the scripture giueth authoritie to reprehende priuate faultes yt doothe myche more authorise to rebuke publike faultes And if those faultes which are doone againste one man miche more those which are doone against the whole churche And iff those which are doone againste the profit off men myche more against those which are doone againste the glorie off god And if vppon refusall off Admonition in those particuler and secrete cases he will haue the churche procede to excommunication how myche more will he that that proceeding be obserued in thes open faultes And yt ys to childishe thus continually to stumble at this that the wordes off the scripture shoulde haue no farther reache then to that speciall case wheroff expresse mention is made in the texte and to leaue no place to argumentes off like of more to the les off les to the more of contraries c. and therbie to cut off all meditation off the worde of God to destroye a greate parte off the vse off teachinge in the churche Albeit in folowinge his owne interpretation the contemners or neglecters off the worde and praiers maye well be subiecte to this rule for it maye come to pas that one maye contemne the worde c. And yet in that manner as it shall be known wne onely vnto one what opinion he norishethe of them yet because that is not alwaies let vs see further what vnskilfulnes it is which the A. doothe so greatly accuse in this allegatiō Saint Paul grounding him selfe vpon this place off our Sauiour doubted not to drawe forthe the authoritie he had to excōmunicate against the incestuous mā whiche was notoriously knowne to haue offended the whole cōgregation ād Hymineus which had corrupted the puretie off the doctrine And iff the A. saie trewly that that doctrine off our Sauiour Christ touching excommunication may be caryed no farther then to that case off priuate and secret iniuries then Saint Paul drewe the sworde and tawght to drawe yt where yt owght not And althowghe there be no mention made off the admonitions yet they muste be off necessitie presupposed forasmiche as it was not lawfull to haue proceeded to that extremitie off cuttinge off by excommunication if the offenders had lefte any place to admonitions and wolde haue suffered themselues to haue bene cured by gentler medicines What also that Saint Paul vpon the publike admonition which he gaue vnto certeine offenders menaceth them that if they admit not his admonitions and reprehensions he will not spare them doothe he not in those wordes giue them the threat off excommunication And if he doo ▪ then yt is cleare that those admonitions being publike were off publike and knowne faultes wherby folowethe that this rule off admonishing and reprehending are forerunners vnto excommunication euen in publike faultes And as he here fighteth against a manifeste trewthe so he hathe himselffe for aduersarie which affirmeth that againste an heretike bothe thes two admonititions which oure sauiour Christe speakethe of and the excommunication afterward owghte to be practised oneles he will saie that an heretike which is knowne to one onelie owght so to be hādled ād that he which is notoriously knowne owght to be free frō that censure The place of M Caluin is altogeter frō the pourpose for I doo not say that priuate admonitions ought to be applied vnto publike offences the Apostell of thē giueth order that suche offenders shoulde be rebuked openly Onely I saide that for contempte and neglecte off the wordes I might haue said for euerie faulte that tendeth either to the hurte of the neighbour or to the hinderaunce off the glory off God there be prescribed in the worde off God admonitions and reprehensions and if those will not serue excommunications but whether the admonitions and reprehensions shoulde be priuate or publike that thinge hanging vpon the qualitie and kinde of the faulte I affirmed nothing Now let vs see what reuel he maketh with the ciuil Discipline appointed by the lawe of God Where before he can giue one answer he muste aske three questions the firste is answered before in the beginninge the laste is handled afterwarde in the 6. Ch. and 5. diuision And as for that parte of the seconde questiō vvhich withe other his sainges folowing surmise that I woulde haue the negltcte of the worde punished by deathe yt is directly against my expresse wordes which hauing shewed the punishementes that shoulde be executed vpon contemners add that there are other punishementes for those which neglecte the worde c. And as to that parte off his question which is whether contemners off the worde owght to be put to deathe yt is as his other questions be of thinges not onely affirmed and set downe but disputed off bothe partes For this is that which we plainlie affirme and bringe argumentes to proue And when he that despiseth the worde of God despiseth God himselfe the equitie of this muste needes appeare vnto all those in whome there is but a corne off the zeale and looue of the glorie off God or rather in whō there is not some pleasure to see the glorie of God troden vnder feete But he saithe that the place off Moses off putting Idolaters vnto deathe maketh nothing to proue this The reason wherof he assignethe to be
the whole churche is for that time of the assemblie publike so yt may be well said that the noÌ„ber which meete in that place which is so apointed by the churche to heare the worde off God how small so euer yt be can not hinder the publykenes off that assemblie The places quoted in the margente to proue priuate celebrating off the Sacramentes are handled in another place That which is alledged owte of an article of the Suche churche that thinges othervvise indifferent doo after lavvfull commaundement after a sorte chaunge theyr nature we willinglie subscribe vnto howbeit withe any thinge which is here in coÌ„trouersie it hathe no knot at all but is a wandring sentence which hathe no fellow For yt is not debated here what force off authoritie the thinges haue whiche the churche ordeineth but the questioÌ„ is altogether what are the thinges whiche fall into the churches order The nexte diuision wherin he requireth answer vnto the place off the Corinthes off doing all thinges decently and orderly ys answered in that I haue shewed that the churche being bounde to this commandement in making her Ceremonies is therbye tyed not onelye to place nothinge in the churche agaynste the commandement off God but is bounde euen according to the commaundement to frame her orders in indifferent thinges Wherin the answerer althowghe he oppugneth the groundes which I vsed for the proofe off yt doothe I suppose agree with me and therfore there was no cause he should haue required any answer Caput 2. Diuision 1. pag. 95. IF he would haue proued that which I denie he shoulde haue shewed that thes authorities affirmed that the churche in making lawes off thinges wheroff the scripture hathe not precisely determined neede not to haue respecte to the generall commaundements off the scripture before receiued but that he is not hable to doo with any approued sentence And albeit he hathe subscribed to this sentence before yet in the ende off this diuision he beginnethe to sâ—lyde into his former error saying that in matters not prescribed in the scripture he can not tel whether to resorte to knowe the vse and antiquitie of them but vnto councells stories and doctors As thowge the scripture were not the loode starre vnto the churche in her decrees towching suche thinges and as thowghe the firste churches vvhhich had not suche stories c. had not sufficient addresse in the light off the worde off God to make constitutions by I graunte the church by stories c. vnderstandeth of their antiquitie but the knowledge of their antiquitie maketh litle or nothing to know how profitable or conuenient for the churche they be vvhich being that onely vvhich is looked into in ther establishing is drawne from the scriptures and not from antiquitie Howbeit because he pretendith agreement in this that there be certeine thiÌ„ges lefte vnto the order of the church with this coÌ„ditioÌ„ that they be doone according to the generall coÌ„mandements off the Scripture we will houlde him by his former vvordes and will not suffer him to breake froÌ„ vs vnles he doo not onelie priuilie nibble and bite abowte but in manifest wordes eate vp his former saying Notwithstanding in the great plentie the A. hathe off places for the proofe off this which we denie not let yt be obserued what partly vnproper partly vngodly choise he hathe made The first sorte off Testimonies owt off the auncient writers and councells are off off those which are in controuersie as whether bishopps maie haue suffringanes whether there owght to be metropolitanes c. Wheroff althoughe he bringe no testimonie owte off his antors that they are in the churches power to order yet he settethe them downe as thowghe there were neuer question moued off them and as if he had gained them by stronge hande off reason The seconde sorte are off those thinges which beinge determined by the worde off God off or on are owte off the churches compas to take order in As is that which he reciteth owte of Iustine off the deacons carying the brede of the holy supper off the lorde to those which were not present at the action off the supper and that which he alledgeth owte of the councell of Neocesarea that no man should be minister before 30. yeare off his age Likewise that which he bringeth owte off the Amyran councell that a minister can not sâ—ll the churches rightes especially in that sense the councell meaneth which is for his owne priuate profit The first of these is coÌ„trarie to the institution and the laste being sacriledge are simply forbiddeÌ„ in the worde of god The Scripture also determining that a man off those giftes which be required off the Minister off the word maie and if nede require owght to be receiued vnto the ministery and shewing further that those giftes fall into yonger yeares then 3â— yt muste needes folow that the churche determining flatly that none shall be receiued to the ministery before those yeares shuttethe the doore off the ministerie vnto those to whom the worde off God settethe yt open And also that this Councell is altogether owte off place alledged considering that it determined not off this as off a thinge wheroff the Scripture had not giuen sentence but as off a thinge vnlawfull by the Scripture and for that purpose it alledgethe the example off our Sauiour Christe which preached not before he was 30. yeare oulde Thes thinges daungerously set downe off the An. as indifferent which are not I thought it necessary to giue the simple reader warning that the Answ measure wherwithe he meteth indifferent thinges is vnsealed Ther is a thirde sorte owte off Tertull. de corona militis â—d prax Basil de sancto Spiritu Wheroff beside that diuers off them were neuer conuenient some off them vnlawfull they are all suche as the authors doo not permit to the order of the churche but vnder a false clocke off tradition put the churches necke vnder a seruile yoke off them And wheras he would faine saue thes places owte off the fire by saying that althoughe some grew in time to superstitioÌ„ and that one of his autors gaue to myche vnto vnwritteÌ„ traditioÌ„s he doothe but burne his fingers the places he can not saue For yt behoueth him to shewe that certen thinges not determined in the word off God are in the churches power and thes places yff they proue any thinge proue that the churche is bounde off necessitie to certaine thinges wheroff there is no commaundement in the worde off God for the which cause they are alledged off the papistes from whom it is not vnlike but they were borowed But yet it appeareth that there were thinges in the churche not expressed in the worde I graunte and more then that thinges contrarie but by what right yt doothe not appeare And in deede iff the answerer had light vppon some weywarde aduersarye that woulde haue debated this question with him these places wolde haue giuen him greate
aduantage considering that bothe the ceremonies are for a greate parte naught and the opinion off the necessitie off them a greate deale wors And Ieromes wordes also in tying the later churches vnto the customes off the ancient which are not against faith albeit they be smoothed by translatinge praesertim namely and with his exposition of matters off faith yet euen as they are set downe off him ouerthrowe the churches libertie in thinges indifferent For althowgh they should be inconuenient and vncomely yet the matter off inconuenience and vncomelines being by the Ans no matter off faith the churche must still be clogged with them nether can it by that rule shake them off There are a fourthe sorte of places owte of the aunciēte fathers wherin he putteth the greateste confidence and vpon which he hathe laide greateste weight and therfore by handes set ouer againste them moueth the reader to laie sure hould on them Thes places drawne owte off Ambrose vppon the Ephes and of Tertull de virginibus velandis that of Ambrose being as hathe bene shewed very corrupte is also a conterfaite as shall after be noted The other off Tertull is a flat and a plaine Montaniste yt is not vnknowne that Montanus helde that there was no sufficient instruction giuen by the Apostles vnto the churche but that there were onely certeine principles off Religion giuen by them being vnperfect and were afterwarde to be finished and polished by the conforter whiche himselfe did forge This poison Tertullian hauing druncke he lefte the Sauour off yt in diuers places but in no place more brimly then in this which maye appeare by the comparisons he vseth off likening the churche off God in the Apostels time vnto a tree whose fruicte was not blomed and vnto one which is in his base age and the churches after the Apostels times throwghe reuelatiōs suche as he imaginethe the Apostels were not hable to beare allwaies marching forward towardes a greater ripenes in fruicte and perfection in age And if the D. had bene a litle awakened he might haue smelt the fraude euen in thes wordes which he hathe bene ab vsed by For when he imagineth a nother rule off conuersatiō and leading of liffe of a Chirstian then that which hathe bene giuen he might haue iustly suspected the sentence seing the rule off conuersation comprehended in the commaundementes is vnchangeable And when he addeth that that should be doone by the grace off God receiuing increase dailie vnto the ende he did not obscurely touche the head off his error which is that there shall be still vnto the worldes ende greater graces off the spirite off God giuen to the churche generally then hathe bene before in the Apostels tymes Wherbie appeareth that the places which the A. will haue the reader laye so faste houlde of are thornes not to be once touched withowte a hedging gloue in one hande and a hatche◠in the other We willingly subscribe vnto the Iudgement off M. Caluin alledged here And where the Ans woulde make peraduēture the reader beleue that by the wordes off pollicie and gouernement lefte to the iudgement off the church Caluin meaneth to make thes pointes in cōtrouersie at the churches disposition it shall appeare bothe by his seuerall sentences of thes thinges that he holdethe them vnchangeable and by the exposition off M Beza his wordes the same in effect with thes off Maister Caluin which cometh after to be considered It remaineth that seing the answerer woulde oppresse vs with the authoritie off the fathers We consider whether there can be any fitter places browght for the maintenance off the Admonition then the A. hathe alledged for him Augustin VVhether yt be questiō off Christe or vvhethet yt be question off his churche or off vvhat thinge soeuer the question be off I say not yf vve but iff an angel from heauen shal tel vs any thinge beside that yovv haue receiued in the scriptures vnder the lavv and the gospell let hym be accursed And lest the Answ should restreine this generall saying vnto the doctrine of the gospell so that he woulde therby shut owte the discipline let him heare what Cyprian saithe The Christian religion saithe he shall fynde that ovvte off this scripture rules off all doctrines haue spronge and that from hence doothe springe and hether doothe returne vvhatsoeuer the Ecclesiasticall discipline doothe conteine And euen Tertull himselffe before he was imbrued with this heresie off Montanus giueth testimonie vnto the discipline in thes wordes VVe maye not giue our selues this liberty to bringe in any thinge off our vvill nor choose any thinge that other men bringe in off their vvill vve haue the Apostels for autors vvhich them selues brought nothing off their ovvne vvill but the discipline vvhich they receiued of Christe they deliuered faithfully vnto the people And if the sentence were any thinge worthe which he browght in towching the discipline owt off Tertull yt maketh against him For in that he will haue that correction off the discipline to haue the authoritie of the holy goste speaking in his fantastical cōforter he declareth that it is not a thinge which hangeth vpon the will of mortal mē And that in indifferēt thinges it is not enowghe that they be not againste the worde but that they be accordīg to the worde yt may appeare by other places Wherehe saieth that vvhat soeuer pleasethe not the lorde displeaseth him and vvithe hurte is receiued And in another place he saithe that the scripture denieth that vvhiche yt noteth not And to come yet neerer where he disputeth against the wearing of crowne or garland which is indifferent off it selfe to those which obiecting asked vvhere the scripture saithe that a man might not vveare a crovvne he anwereth by asking vvhere the scripture saithe that they may vve are And vnto thē replying that yt is permitted vvhich is not for bidden he answereth that yt is forbidden vvhich is not permitted Whereby appeareth that the argument off the scriptures negatiuely holdeth not onely in the doctrine and Ecclesiasticall discipline but euen in matters arbitrarie and variable by the aduise off the church Where it is not enoughe that they be not forbidden vnlesse there be some word which dooth permit the vse of them yt is not enoughe that the scripture speaketh not against them vnlesse it speake for them and finally where yt displeaseth the Lorde which pleasethe hym not one must off necessitie haue the worde off his mouthe to declare his pleasure Whether I commonly vse to propounde thinges in controuersie in bare affirmacions or denials withowt reason and whether yowe applie the scriptures better then I and howe true yt is that yowe haue in yower former booke alledged more scriptures then I did in mine all which thinges this glosse affirmeth I leaue yt to the Iudgement off the reader Cap. 3. Diuision 1. pag. 100. IN the first whole page there is nothing to be answered yt being shewed
compasse off the law as can be the A. in imagining that vve haue no word for diuers thinges wherein the Iewes had particular direction presupposeth gteater perfection in the lawe gyuen vnto the Iewes then in that vvhich is left vnto vs And that this is a principal vertue off the lawe may be seen not onely by that I haue shewed that a conscience well instructed and towched with the feare off God seeketh for the light off the word off God in the smallest actions but euen by common reason the masters whereoff giue this rule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to saie that yt greatly behoueth those lavves vvhich are vvell made as muche as can be to determine of all thinges and to leaue as fevve thinges as may be to the discretion off the iudges Where he saithe that the examples I browght off orders vvhich the Iewes did vvell obserue vvhereoff there was no expresse mention in the lawe off God make not to the pourpose for that he spake off ceremonies vsed abowt the worship off God I answer that that vvhich I haue alledged is a manifest confutation off those wordes which he hathe set downe nether was ther the least thing to be doon in the church omitted in the lawe For are not these thinges vvhich I browght example off to be doon in the church are they not Ecclesiasticall orders yea are not part off them which he denieth perteining to the seruice off God Yf these orders off the howre for the morning and afternoone sacrifice off preaching the vvord off God in a place vvhere yt may be best hard off fasting for the better humbling off the people before the lord in praier be not orders and Ceremonies perteining to the worshipp off God then the daylie sacrifices preaching the vvord off God and calling vppon his name vvhereunto these belonged are no partes off the worshipp off God then the vvhich there is nothing more absurde And verily this is not by iugling or sleight off hand to deceiue the eyes off the reader but by flat facing to endenour to make hym tourne them from the truthe That vvhich I said off the Iewes Ecclesiasticall gouernement by the morall and Ceremoniall lawe onely and not by the iudiciall as that vvhich may be cast downe with reasons owt off the vvord of God vvhich is here onely doon by autoritie of men I am vvell content it fall So that I haue no fault to finde vvith the Ans in this behalfe but that the vveapon he strooke this vvith all vvas not sharp enoughe Diuision 5. pag. 120 c. Of the nomber off thinges vvhich the Iewes had not particulerly decided by the lawe the reason is apparant vvhich I haue assigned that this hyndereth not but that there is a vvord and generall commandement to direct them by hath bene shewed that it is a vaine cauill that maketh doubt whether in saying that vve haue the same lavves to direct vs in the seruice off God vvhich the Ievves had I meane the Ceremoniall lawe or no appeareth by that vvhich I set downe in the third diuision p. 118. vvhere I receiuing the morall lawe for our direction left the Ceremoniall and of the same sort is that vvhich he vvrangleth in becawse I saie the nevve Testament is a noble addition vnto the ould considering that I adding vvherein namely that it maketh the ould more manifest and bringeth greater light shut owt all euen the least occasion off suche trifling And this maner of speach that I haue vsed Maister Caluin vvhich is here opposed hath him selff vsed Where he calleth in this respect the gospell an addition vnto the lavve yt remaineth to see vvhether in the matter off the iudiciall lawe that vvhich I haue set downe be straunge and daungerous as the A. surmiseth or no. It is not as the A. surmiseth vntruly that the magistrate is simply bound vnto the iudicial lawes off Moses but that he is bound to the equitie which I also called the substance and marrowe off them In regard off vvhich equitie I affirmed that there are certen lawes amongest the Iudicialles which can not be chaunged And hereof I gaue example in the lawes vvhich command that a stubbern Idolater blasphemer murtherer incestuous person and suche like should be put to death For the first point that the equitie of the iudicialls doth remaine ād therfore owght to be a rule to direct al lawes by to let passe the autoritie of M. Caluin M. Beza and other writers off our time that haue writen with any iudgement off this matter which doo in plaine wordes affirme that there is a perpetuall equitie in them and that our lawes albeit they differ in forme yet owght to reteine the reason or ground of them I saie to let that passe yt is to be considered that all these lawes morall Ceremoniall and Iudiciall being the lawes off God and by his reueled will established must so far forth remaine as yt appeareth not by his will that they are reuoked And seing that the alteration which is come in this behalfe is by the comming off our Sauiour Christ onely yt is to be inquired what those lawes are which he put end vnto Which thing may be considered in that diuision which Saint Paul vseth where he saith that our Sa. Christ came to make peace first betwene God and men and then betwene men and men that is to say betwene the Iewes and Gentils The Ceremoniall lawe therefore beinge a lawe of enimitie which as a wall held owt the Gentils from ioyning them selues vnto the Iewes was necessary amongest other cawses in this respect to be taken away The curse off the lawe for the breache of any the lawes of god ether perteining to the Iewes in tymes past or vnto vs nowe being that which maketh the wall betwene the Lord and vs was for our reconciliation with his maiestie necessarily to be remoued Wherevppon followeth first that the morall lawe as that which nether hindereth our reconciliation with the Lord not our good agreement with men is in as full strenght as euer it was before the comming of our Sauiour Christ For the curse off the lawe beside that it is in regard off the elect rather fulfilled and executed in the persone off our Sa. Christ then abrogated beside that also yt hath a necessary vse as yet towardes the elect not onely to driue them to the faith which is in Christ Iesus but also to kepe vnder the remantes of rebellion euen of them which haue already beleued and beside that the force thereoff is daily ād shal be for euer execured vpon the wicked beside all this seing this curse was annexed not onely to the breache off the morall lawe but also off the Ceremoniall and Iudiciall there is no iuste cause why the morall lawe should be sayde to be abrogated At the least it can not stand which the Ans hathe very daungerously set downe that the whole lawe off god generally is
to the bishoppes alone is made off custome that is twise a yeare at the least iff any come at the intreaty off some in authoritie of tentimes and not vpon any neede off the churche For when almoste is the request of suche as be in authoritie refused in that election In deede there is no extreme sute the doore is not so harde locked ther neadeth but the liftinge vp off the latche And yt is also I graunte withowt contention For howe can the bishope contende with him sele Vnles he and his conscience sometimes fall owte which cōtention is to be wisshed that it were greater And set me all the borowghes and cities together in the whole realme where elections passe by voice yowe shall finde they can not all afforde so many vnworthy officers as haue swarmed ministers from the sole election of the moste parte off the bishopes in Englande Yf yowr affirmaciōs be so clear that yowe dare com̄itte thē so barely withowte profe to the iudgemēt of mē I dare with better reason let these goe which are donne before the sonne in the conscience off all men which the brwte beastes them selues woulde witnes iff they coulde speake Yf he be condemned off the Apostell which iudgeth off one mans action before the time that is before he seeth what it i◠▪ what great presumption ys it thus to iudge the churche off God And therfore that I be no partaker off yowr sinne and plage which withowt repentance ensueth I answer that I thinke they will chuse the meteste that they will followe the lorde before the lorde of the towne yf the lorde off the towne drawe not with the Lorde that they will not doe one off their neighbours pleasure to the dishonour off the lorde and the hurte off all them selues and the whole congregation that the peace off God not contention will be in the churche off God that they being the church off God and the mysticall bodie off our fauiour Christe shall haue an hable and fit pastor if they haue one lyke vnto them selues and so shal be like people like pastor And iff a whole churche assembled together in the feare off God with inuocation off his name be ouercaried by affection off loue or feare to chose him that ys vnmeet the bishope maie muche more beinge but one man subiecte to the same passions they be onles yow can happely shewe some prerogatiue to exempte him from the common infection So for any thinge yet alleadged the lighte off reason rather fauoureth the election off the minister by many then by one Nowe let vs see whether the holie scriptures wheruppon wee laie the weighte off this election receiue any better answer To youre answere to the ◠and sixte off the Actes yow haue my replye before And where yow add further to the firste off the Actes that Maister Beza saithe that they were not presented by the multitude but by the Apostels onely I know not wherfore yow shoulde bringe that in For I say not that the multitude had the presentation yt appeareth manifestly that no one had the handlinge of that action which striketh the bishopes sole election to the harte yt appeareth also that the iudgement and consente of the churche was required which is that wee desire Maister Beza writeth thus Augustine vvith vvhome this vvhole chapiter is reade very corruptly interpreteth this vvorde they set vpp he set vp not vvithovvt a daungerous error for here vvas nothinge done off Peter by him selfe as one endevved vvith greater dignitie but euerie thinge is done publikely and by voices off the vvhole churche Vppon the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he saithe thus The strenght off this vvorde vvhich is to ordeine by voices is to be noted that vve maye knovve that Paule and Barnaba◠did nothīg by their ovvne priuate pleasure nor exerciced no tyrāny in the churche as the Romishe Harlot dothe novve and his assistants vvhich they call ordinaries And in other place vppon the wordes lay not thy handee suddenly vpon any c. That is saithe he admitte not all vvithovvt choise to any Ecclesiasticall function as muche as in the liethe For all the authoritie vvas not in Timothie but after the election made by voices off the vvhole churche as vve haue saide of the electiō in the 14. of the Actes ād as appeareth by the election off Matthias and the Deacons he that gouerned the cōpanie in the name of the vvhole Eldershipe did by the putting on off his handes consecrate hym that vvas chosen And in an other place were the apostle willeth Titus that he shoulde appointe elders tovvne by tovvne he referreth the reader to his exposition off the place off the 5. to Timothy and the 14. off the Actes And in the same chapiter owte off the whiche maister D. hathe borowed this place he sheweth that albeit all those thinges are not allwaies to be followed whiche were done in the apostolicall elections notwithstanding that they had one vnchangeable ende and asking what that was he answereth amongest other this that nether pastors nor Deacons shoulde be thruste vppon the flocke againste the vvill theroff And after in the same chapiter he saithe plainely that it is tyranny that the gouuernours off the churche shoulde be geuen vnto the churche vvithovvte the consent theroff also that it belongethe to the Presbytery to choose the offices off the churche when they be voide There are a nomber off moe places to be foūde in hī to this pourpose that I may leaue owt heare it epistle in his boke of epist. because I suppose yt is in euery mans handes which is moste cleare for the deciding of this cōtrouersie To come therfore to the examination off this dealinge fyrste in that he saith that it had bene a dangerous error if S. Peter had done any thinge off his ovvne authoritie withowt the assistance of other the Apostels in that he saithe that Timothie had not not onely not the election off the ministers but not the ordination in his povvre but that whiche he did he did in the name off the reste off the eldershipe and in that he saithe yt belongethe chefly to the office of the elders to chuse the offices of the churche as ofte as they be voide and addethe that he neuer founde in any Christian churche established that kinde off election vvhiche is in the povvre one yt is cleare that he vtterly condemnethe as altogether vnwonted as vsurped as tiran̄icall that election whiche is made by the bishope alone and that this is one of the substantiall poinctes off a lawfull Ecclesiasticall election that it be donne by the Eldership Secondly in that he saithe yt vvas the vnchangable pourpose off the Apostels to prouide that the gouernours off the churche shoulde not be thruste vppon the churche againste her vvill that Paule and Barnabas to then-tente they vvoulde bringe in no tyrannie into the churche permitted the election off the elders vnto the voices theroff
that they bringe tyranny vnto the churche vvhiche vvithovvte the coÌ„sent of the multitude at their one pleasure call any vnto a publike function in the churche yt is moste manifeste that maister Beza holdethe this for an other substantiall poincte off a lawfull Ecclesiasticall electioÌ„ in a church established that yt be made with the peoples coÌ„sente So that yt appearethe that the election made by the Bishope alone receiueth off Maister Beza twoo deadly woundes as yt were in the harte and in the heade one for that it is not as well done by the authorite off the Eldershipe as by the bishoppe or pastor an other bicause yt is not done by the consente off the churche Nowe what doe wee require in the election off Ecclesiasticall officers which Maister Beza dothe not wee require that yt be not permitted to one he detestethe it as tyrannie we saie that yt oughte to be done by the elder shipe and by consente at the leste off the people he saithe the same What are the thinges then vsed in the Apostels elections that M. Beza saithe may be altered and wheroff there is no certeine rule prescribed whiche the churche is allwaies bounde to followe forsouthe thes thinges as may be easely gathered that where sometimes the people vppon particular occasions did first chuse and the approbation off the gouernours did followe other some times and for the moste parte the gouernours wente before and directed the iudgementes off the people that in this circunstance the churche shoulde be at her libertie to order and vse whiche off theis waies she shoulde thinke moste fâ—tte hauinge regarde to the times and other circumstaÌ„ces whiche mighte moue to take ether the one or the other Againe where the GreciaÌ„s vsed in their elections the cerimonie off holdinge vpp the hande to testifie their liking off him that was chosen other as the Romains goinge from one syde vnto an other Whereoff cam pedibus ire in sententiam others by silence did approue that whiche was propounded that in thes and suche lyke the churche mighte vse that ceremonie whiche is bothe receiued in that place and leste subiecte to slaunderous speache And that whiche the Answ hathe browghte here dothe especially belonge vnto this and is geuen off M. Beza where he shewethe that the manner off the Asians was to testifie there consente by liftinge vp of handes But off what thinges so euer in the election that rule is giuen Yt can by no means take awaye the election from the Eldershipe off euery churche nor the peoples consente to put all in the Bishopes hande Seinge that as hathe bene shewed he makethe these twoe substantiall poinctes off a lawfull ecclesiasticall election And if the Answ will accorde vs those wee shall soone agree for the reste Vppon all this matter I leaue to the reader to esteme howe ether vncircunspectly or vnfaithfully M. S. hath not borowed but taken awaye whether Maister Beza wil or no his senteÌ„ces to ouerthrowe that whiche he so often times and in so vehement wordes so plainly dothe establishe Nowe for your questions yowe praie me to answere althowghe they come so often that yow maye aptelier be called the Questioner then the Ansvverer and that I neede not by any order off disputation be driuen to speake to suche flying demaundes yet I am contente to let yow vse this aduantage off venting them after this sorte which yow can not put in any forme off argument and whiche beinge a litle streighte girte shrinke a waie or euer they come to be examined But I muste praie yow also that where yowr questions be no weightier yow will be contente that I answer them as shortly as yow propownde them Albeit I haue in effecte answered them already in this section I saie therfore that where the Apostles in the firste off the Actes good before the reste off the churche and directe them that is the moste conuenient waie for ordenary elections as that whiche was bothe moste vsed in the Apostolicall elections and whiche is borne vp by apparante reason whiche is that they shoulde shewe the waie to others which are likeste to knowe it best And wheras the people present firste and then the Apostels approue after for as muche as that roose of a particular occasion whiche was for that the Apostels dealing was somewhat suspected as not altogether indifferent but to muche bending to the poore off theire one nation yf the lyke case shoulde fall the like remedy may be vsed beside that that election off the Deacons might be more safely committed vnto the people then that off the pastors the people being more able to iudge off their abilitie in disposing off the mony then off the knowledge required for the preaching off the word The casting off the lottes for so muche as yt was to this ende that the election off an Apostle shoulde be immediatly from God and not by any mans voice that consideratioÌ„ ceassing the lot also in ecclesiasticall elections howesoeuer yt semeth otherwise to some owghte to die In the sixt off the Actes the imposition of handes being vsed in all elections by the churche and hauig a profitable aduertisement that he whiche is ordeined is sett a parte from the rest for the seruice off the churche and that from thence forthe he muste not serue him selffe and his but the churche and conteining also an assurance off the lordes hande and helpe alwaies readie in assisting of him muste needes be holden still for ordenary to be vsed in all elections The praier be fore the lot in the 1. of the Actes being expressedly vsed in all elections And being nowe by so muche more necessary then it was then as the habilitie is lesse nowe in the chusers then yt was then muste needes be thoughte a paterne to frame owre elections by And where yow saie ther was no suche thinge as praier in the 〈◊〉 off the Actes yt is a token yow haue litle truthe in yow whiche will denie that whiche is expressed manifestly in the texte for although S. Luke doeth not declare what were the wordes they vsed yet there being praier made for them there was suche a thinge That in the 1. Act. twoo were presented for one office that was that waie mighte be made to the deuine election by lotte that one onely was taken was becawse there was but one place voide That in the sixte of the acres 7. were presented was becawse the church was thowght to haue neede off so manie for the prouysion off their poore that all were ordeined was for that the Apostels liked well off them all Be there yet any more behinde I loked when yow shoulde saye that in the firste off the actes there was a bowte sixe score in the sixte almoste six thowsande there but eleuen Apostles here twelue there speaking withe one tonge here with many For the matters in controuersy that is to saie whether the peoples consente is to be had c.
affyrme that the example off the Apostles in layinge on of handes vpon hym which ys to be ordeined coun terualleth a commaundement and owght to be folowed And if where I haue said the doinges of the Apostles owght to be folowed in the gouernment of the churches he aske how I answere that that they did in especiall cases then is to followed vvhen suche cases fall those which they did ordinarily and generally to be ordinarily and generally followed Those thinges which they did in founding off churches and before they were established to be in life maner vsed those which they did when the churches were established to be in the same maner ordered And to enter yet further into this matter Where he saithe that the argument is nothing worth which is drawen of the facte of the Apostle by the same reason he also condemneth argumentes browght of the factes of our Sauiour Christ and muche more of all other holie men and Prophetes Wherof the scripture is full as when our Sau. Christ proueth that it was lawfull in some case to breake the corporall reste of the Sabothe by the example off Dauids eating of the shew bread As when he excused him selfe that he did not worke his miracles in Nazareth where he was nourished vp rather then in Capernaum and other places by the examples off Elias and Elizeus by which he tawght that a man may attempte nothing without a vocation all these argumentes if M. D. had had the answeringe of them he would as it semeth haue said vnto our sauiour Christ that they are nothing worth I graunt there be some actes of our Sauiour Christ and other godlie men in the scripture vvhich being commendable in them would not be so in vs they hauinge some either extraordinarie spirite or commaundement vvhich we haue not Off which sort Idowbte not but Maister Zuinglius mente this sentence which yow alleadge As would haue bene easely seene yf yow had quoted the place I think he hathe bene alledged ād quoted aboue fortie times before and neuer a sentēce that maketh either whot or coulde to the matters in controuersie or which might once prouoke me to look whether they were so or noo this onely place was somewhat materiall and here it is not quoted But to come againe to those extraordinarie factes I saie that as the spoilinge off the Egyptians by the Israelites at the commaundemēt off God and the killinge of Cosby and Zamry by Phinchas throwghe the inspiration off the spirite off God can not let vs from teachinge generally that theft is vnlawfull that the Magistrate only owght to punishe publike malefactors so those fewe Actes vvhich doon of our Sau. Christ the Apostles and other godlie men are not to be folowed off vs can not let vs to teache generally that there Godly deedes which lie in vs to doo owght to be followed And as I may reason notwithstanding those exāples that he is a thefe because he hath taken that vvhich an other hath labored for against his will and he is a murtherer because he hathe slaine a malefactor being no magistrate for that purpose so I may saie he dothe well for so our Sau. Christ did so did the patriarches and he dothe euill for our Sauiour Christ the Apostles the patriarches did otherwise in that case And he that shall denie this argument vvithowt shewinge some speciall and manifest reason Wherfore it was lawfull for the one to doo that vvhich was not for the other he is vnworthie to be a scholer in the diuinitie scooles much lesse Doctor Yf therfore the Ans would haue by any Good order put me from the possession of this place he should haue shewed that S. Paul of some speciall occasion which falleth not into our ministerie vsed this circumspection in taking suche a clowde off witnesses for the assurance off Timothies good behauior or that there is some generall rule and commaundement to the contrarie But that as he hathe not done so he can not doo there being no one stepp of any such either particular cause or generall rule either mentioned or to be gathered of that place or of any other scripture It must therfore be estemed that S. Paul did that of a generall equitie and common conuēience which owght to be vsed in such graue and weightie matters off the church Yea if M. D. Would haue a litle laid a syde his inordinate desyre off mainteining that which he hath once written he should haue founde iuster cause of this circumspection in our elections then in this For if S. Paul an Apostel endewed vvith suche a gift of discretion of spirites would not take Timothy vvhich had bene browght vpp from his cradell in the knowledge of the Scriptures and had liued in all commendation from his infancie Timothe I say whom he had now knowen as it may be verie probably shewed of some reasonable time into companye of his ministe rye withowt suche diligent circumspection how muche lesse may a Bishop in authoritie inferor vnto him in gifte of discerninge spirites not to be compared receyue into the mynistery vpon the Testymonie off one onelie a man vvhom he hathe not knowen before and vvhatsoeuer he be in knowledge of the word of God far behinde Timothy And yt is not to be let passe for further answere to that which ys alleadged owt of Zuinglius Of a deede or an example to make a lavv that yt hath bene shewed to haue bene the practise of all the Apostles at other tymes in there elections and therfore this is not of one facte to make a rule but off the continuull practise of the Apostles Moreouer by defense of receiuing at the testimony of one onely what doth he els then make as easie an entrance into the highest place off the church off God as a man off any calling and wisdome ioyned with yt would make into one of the least offices of his howse for surely if he haue any regarde vnto the good order of his howse and consider that the misbehauiour off his seruāte vvhom he vvill put in any trust reacheth vnto the dishonour of him selfe and his vvhole howshold he vvill neuer admit him vvhom he knoweth not vvithowt some one mans commendation off whom he is well assured But the law of God in this behalfe is most clere which to the deciding of a vveighty matter in dowbt requireth two witnesses and if it can be thre and namely where the iudgement is of bloude yt expresly forbiddeth that iudgement should passe vpon the Testimonye of one But in the iudgement of a minister where the question is of a great numbre of destruction of bodie and soule and that for euer shall it being dowbtfull be giuē vpō one mās testimonie how sufficient so euer he be Especially seing that there owght to be greater triall and more plentifull witnes in the churche matters thē in ciuil causes which may appeare further by that which S. Paul writeth vnto Tymothie Where he
and by the expresse mouthe off God I see not what man coulde put him owte off yt withowte the same authoritie whiche put him in Laste off all it is verie probable that vvhere yt is saide in an other place that Moses stood vp and praied for Aaron then Moses receiued answere what shoulde be doone withe Aaron towchinge his continuance in the ministerie Where yowr glosse in the ende supposeth contrarietie seinge yt settethe downe none I haue not to answere yt may be the A. lawghed vvhen he vvrote that vvherby he requireth sincere dealing in the scriptures For if this be sitting in his mouthe vvhich corrupteth in a manner all he toucheth vvhy should not also a light housewiffe talke of the chastitie off a graue matrone The nexte diuis belonging vnto the 6. Tract off vnpreaching ministers shall there God vvilling be answered Off election off Ministers vn voices or other consente off the people Chap. 4. pag. 155. IF Chrysostome had had anie thinge to saie towching the election off Deacons he shoulde haue spokē vvhen tyme was and when that place was handled Yet for answere the reader maye vnderstand that Chrysost in that place makethe comparison betwen the election in the firste off the Actes and this and sheweth howe the Apostels did otherwise there then here For there they chose two vvhiche they set vpp before the churche So that vvhen Chrysost saithe the Apostels myght haue chosen the deacons yt may be he meaneth they might haue chosen them as they did the two Mathias and Barsabas In whiche choise I haue shewed the consente off the people was required Yff there were but this place whiche the D. citeth I woulde stande vpon this answer but considering that Chrys in another place affirmeth that Peter might haue chosen him selfe which I would not kepe from the knowledge off the reader I will not denie but that Chrysost might haue heere the meaning the D. supposeth Wherto as I can by no meanes agree vpon the reasons both before and after alledged so the D. is not helped For when Chryso commendeth Peter that he did all thinges by the aduise off the churche nothing off his ovvne autoritie nothing vvith dominion When he addeth also that the same was to auoide contention and that nether he nor the reste off the Apostles should be thovvght to chuse off fauour he declareth sufficiently that there is no bishop of that ether authoritie or holines off life vvhich in making the election without consente of the church dooth not bothe laie him selfe and his ministery open to suspiciō of parcialitle and giue occasion off pernicious debates in the churche He shoulde also vnderstande that this proportion is vneuen and that if yt were granted whiche he desyrethe yet he is not where he woulde be For iff it were lawfull for the Apostels indued with extraordinarie giftes off discretion off spirites to chuse yt foloweth not therfore that one Bishopp may doo so And because yt was lawfull for the 12. Apostels to chuse them withe whome they were dailie conuersante therfore it is lawfull for one bishoppe to chuse those whiche he neuer see nor knewe before Before I goo any further yt is to be obserued that althowghe the Ans holde owte in the defense off this cawse off election by the Bishope certeine wordes of learned mē racked from their meaninge and contrarie to the continual practise off the authors yet the trwthe is that as this assertion is the Papistes and Papistes againste the Protestantes so all his principall bothe argumentes and solutions haue bene worde for worde ministred vnto him owte off the bokes off the ranckeste enemyes off the trwthe Yff the reader will see this question diducted at large betwene the catholikes and the papistes let hym reade Hosius and Phigius in thes bokes which I haue noted I will onely note the places whēce the Ans argumētes are fetched with his startinge holes vvherwithe he vvoulde abuse the worlde And firste off all Marsilius a Catholike whome the lorde had stirred vpp to mainteine the trwthe off the Gospell Aboute the time off Pope Iohn the 12. disputinge againste the sole election off the bishope vsethe this reason whiche wee haue heere in hande namelie that forasmuche as the churche chose here Deacons as it appearethe in the Actes therfore yt owghte muche more chuse her mynisters This reason Phigius as the D derideth no more hable to answer yt then he The manifeste wordes off the texte are that Paule and Barnabas ordeined elders by voces neither is there any learned and godlie man browghte or as Iam perswaded can be browghte that euer denied that the churches were in election off their ministers ioyned with Paul and Barn. That Zuingl saithe some were called to the ministerie off the worde by the Apostels onely what is yt to proue that Paule and Barnabas did here in this place ordeine myinisters withowte the voices off the churche yt is well therfore M Zuing. hath expressed whiche the D. hathe vnfaithfully holden backe who translatinge whole pages to no purpose coulde not here aforde vs one poore sentence off the lengthe off two lines The other halfe off the sentence is this As saithe he vvhen by the decree off the Apostels Peter and Iohn vvere sente vnto Samaria Marcke I beseche yow what manner of election this was The Apostels chose two but suche as were approued mynisters before what is this to proue that the byshope maie chuse those whiche were neuer approued or chosen vnto the ministrie The Apostels chose them to goe an embassage whiche shoulde be ended in a fewe daies and what is that to proue that a bishoppe maie chuse to a perpetuall function The Apostels did yt withowte the consente off that churche vnto whiche that matter did not belonge what is that to proue that the bishope maie chuse a minister withowte the consente off that churche whiche that election dothe concerne for that electiō belonged not vnto the churche of Ierusalem where they were if yt had there is no doubte but the Apostels woulde not haue doon yt withowte the cōsente therof I leue here to speake of the difference of bishop and Apostel off twelue and one whiche beinge obserued in the former section needeth no rehersall And as this maketh nothinge for the election off the bishope so yt maketh against that for the whiche this place is browghte For iff maister Zuing. had bene off that iudgemente that Paule and Barnabas did by them selues chuse withowte the churche he woulde likely haue browghte that example cōsideringe that this can not be properly called any election to the Mynistrie whiche was off those which were ministers before But that yow may yet better knowe the D. vnfaithfull dealinge ioined with shameles bouldnes off alledging authoritice I will set downe Maister Zwinglius iudgemente in this cause which he vttereth in diuers places off that booke owte off whiche the D. hathe alledged this but most manifestly within les
then a dowsen lines of the place from whence he rente this Hauinge inueighed againste the Popishe election bothe for that in yt one bishoppe hathe all the powre and for the vnworthines off those which were chosen he addethe yt semethe therfore that there ys nothinge so agreable to the ordinance off god and to the oulde institution as that all the vvhole church off the faithfull amongeste a people together vvithe certaine learned and godlie bishopes ad other faithful mē hauinge skill in thinges shoulde choose a pastor and a lytle after Let therfore thes provvde bishops and folish Abbats goo shake their eares for yt is conueniente that the righte off the election shoulde be in the povvre off the churche off the faithfull instructed by the counsels off learned men for as that matter ovvghte not to be in the povvre of one so ovvghte not the rude and vnlearned multitude chalenge vnto yt selfe alone so great vveighte off the election c. Let vs nowe see whether the Ans be anie faithfuller in alledginge Maister Bullinger Firste who denieth that Paule and Barnabas did chuse elders and ministers there When we gyue vnto them the gouernmente and direction off the action there is no reasonable man can Imagin that we shut them owte off the election But iff yow thinke that because maister Bullinger saithe they chose therfore he affirmethe that they chose alone and withowte the churche thes wordes can by no means proue yt his iudgemente in other places quite ouerthroweth yt heare therfore what M. Bull. writeth Those vvhiche thincke meaninge the papistes that the bishops and Archbishop haue povvre to make ministers vse thes places of the scripture Therfore I lefte the at Crete that thovv mighteste appointe elders tovvne by tovvne and againe take heede thovv laye not thy handes rashely of any but vve ansvver that the Apostels did not vse anie tyrannie in the churches nor to haue them selues alone doone these thinges vvhiche perteined ether to the election or ordination other men in the churche shut ovvte For the Apostels and elders did create bishops and elders in the church but communicatinge their counsaile vvithe the churches yea and vvithe the consente and approuing off the people vvhiche dothe appeare plainly by the election and ordination off Mathias c. And there citinge howe Moses did cōmunicate the choise off the magistrates withe the people he addeth And so no dovvbte did blessed Titus althovvghe he had hearde thovv shalte appoincte elders in Creta yet vnderstood that nothinge vvas permitted hym to doo priuatly vvithovvte the aduise off the church And because this place is cited also to proue that Maister Bullinger shoulde thinke that the Election 14. Actes shoulde be made by Barnabas and Paule let the Doctor heare what maister Bullinger writethe in the page before sayinge That the lorde from the beginninge gaue authoritie to the churche to chuse and ordeine fit ministers hathe been shevved before in the second sermone off this decade by the example off the moste eldeste churches in the vvorlde Ierusalem and Antioche vvheroff the one did not onely ordeine seuen Deacons but also Matthias the Apostle the other did set aparte to the ministrie the tvvoo notable Apostels off Christe Paule and Barnabas vvherunto is added that the churches off the gentills beinge instructed or directed off Paule and Barnabas did chuse by voices elders or gouernours off the churche Where also he quoteth the same place off the Actes whiche is here in question Thes was I constrained good reader to set downe that thow mighteste vnderstande that the weapons wherwithe the D. fightethe againste this cawse are not as he falsly pretendeth drawne from the godly writers but ministred vnto him by some owte off the armorie off the papistes whose they onely be The places whiche I alledged proue firste that yt is vsuall in the scripture to ascribe that to the principall in an action whiche is commen to them withe other then that althowghe S. Luke had made no mention off the election off the churche but onely saide that Barnabas and Paule chose yet therby coulde not be concluded that the churche had no intereste in the election but onely this that Paule and Barnabas were the cheife in that action Yff that be ascribed vnto Iosue whiche he procured onely and layed no hand vnto howe much more maie yt be ascribed vnto Paul and Barn. whiche they bothe procured ād had some doinge in and therfore that example of al is moste apte for that wherfore it is alleadged I perceiue there is nothinge so cleare whiche the D. will not essaie to darcken seing he saith that yt rather appeareth that the people permitted the election off those gouernours to Moses The contrarie wheroff manifestly appearethe for after that in the 9. verse Moses had bydd them chuse gouernours in the nexte verse he saithe that the people accepted that commaundmente and thowght off yt as a thinge equall Therfore it is moste vntrwe that they retourned yt into Moyses handes againe for then they woulde haue answered that yt was not meete for hym to committe the election vnto them but rather for the wisdome wherin he excelled to doo yt him selfe And where the D. reasoneth off the 15. verse vpon the wordes I toke c. that phrase dothe rather ouerthrowe his purpose then cōfirme yt for it semethe to haue a relation to the gyuinge ād presentinge of those whiche they they had chosen And the very same Phrase is vsed afterwardes in the 23. vers of the spies whiche were sente to spie the lande which notwithstandinge were not onely sente off Moyses but off the people also as appeareth in the 22. verse and in the booke off numbers where the lorde doothe not onely attribute this sendinge off spies vnto Moises but vnto the people Moyses gaue no further authoritie vnto them then they whiche in ecclesiasticall elections ordeine those whiche were chosen before and confirme the elections whiche are made Therfore as those ordinations exclude not the authoritie off election so this confirmation off Moyses did not deuoure that powre off election whiche he had gyued them but theyr elections and his confirmation made vp a full creation of those gouernours Towchinge the false accusation off pushing at the magistrate I haue answered Those verses off the 22. and 23. off the 25. Actes whiche yow alledge shewe who bore the swate in the makinge of that decree But yet in that the letters were written in the churches and not onely in the Apostels and Elders names and for that the decree is ascribed vnto them by whome the letters are subscribed yt is manifeste that that consente and subscription off the people occupied some rowme in that decree Nether is that alledged owte of M. Calu. any thinge againste that I saied that the people had to doo in yt and gaue consent but giueth asmuch to the church as I in saying the churche committed the matter vnto the decision of the Apostels
There are but two communities one Anabaptisticall which maketh equalitie off all thinges which is and euer was vnlawfull the other Christiā vvhich prouideth for neede of those vvhiche haue not vvherwith to finde them selues vvhich is and owghte to be perpetuall amongeste all Christians Therfore yow can not escape vvith this circuit of vvordes for either that communitie in the Actes vvas suche as owghte to be amongeste vs vvhiche yow denie and propounde as an absurde thinge or els it vvas Anabaptisticall vvhich is blasphemous againste the spirite off God. Althowghe men maie be good Christians withowte sellinge their landes and distributings of the price off them vnto those whiche haue nede yet they can not be good Christiās if for necessarie releife of the poore of the churche weroff they are they be not contente to sell the neede so requirring euen their landes And suche was the estate of the churche off Ierusalē vvhere there were so manie poore and so fewe riche that the vvante of those vvhiche had not vvith muche a doo vvas supplied by sale off landes and howses off them that had suche possessions Which extreme pouertie maie easely be seene in other places vvhere not hable to be fournished of the riche of that churche yt vvas faine to be supplied by diuers other Vnto the reasons alledged owte off S. Paule to proue that the same communitie is commaunded of him to all Christians yowe answere not one worde Vnto the vvhiche I vvill ad this that I doubte not but that vvhiche vvas doone there vvas so farre from oxtraordinarie doinge that yt vvas doone by the cōmaundemente of God in the lawe vvhere the lorde chargeth the Israelites that there shoulde be no beggers amongeste them For Saincte Luke seemeth to haue alluded to that place whē he saithe there vvas no needy amongeste them vvhich expresseth moste aptely the Hebrew worde which Moises vsethe That which I browghte off Ananias and Saphira was to proue there was no suche communitie amongeste them as yowr answer supposed and to glase vp the the windowes of Anabaptistry vvhich yow had opened And surely if the anabaptistes had as they neither haue nor can haue warrant of their communitie by this example off the moste pureste and ancientest church and in deede then the onely church in the worlde approued by all the Apostels replenished vvith the spirite off God they shoulde haue stronger houlde then M. D. shoulde euer be hable to pull from them I doo not thincke yow fauour the Anabaptistes communitie but partly seduced off others and partely overcaried vvith the violence off yowr affections yow are vnawars fallen into that errer vvherby the Anabaptistes grownde it Where I saide that all off the churche did not sell their possessions I confesse the worde possession was not so aduisedly put seinge therby is properly signified howse and lande and those which vvee call vnmouable goodes vvhiche Saint Luke saithe vvere solde off as many as had them But yet nothinge falleth of that for vvhich I did alledged yt and it is rather therby confirmed For shewinge that all owners off howse and land did sell them and not that euery one vvhich had other goods did the like therby is gyuen to vnderstande that not euery one which had monay or other mouables brought them vnto the Apostels The Adm. reason yow are not able to stir For yf S. Paul. For auoiding suspicion in a monay matter did communicate the election with the churches vvhy should he not to auoide suspicion off percialitie ambition and tyranny communicate with them the election off the ministers Surely he was as far from suspition off this couetous trechery with all men as from suspition off these faultes And so much farther as such excellent wittes and learninge as was in him are easelier ouercome off those other vices then off this pilferinge off monay which the grosser and vnlearned sorte for the moste parte offende in Na vvhy shoulde not S. Paule be in feare off this monay suspicion if he had taken vpon hym the election off the ministers shuttinge owte the churches Doo yow thincke that those which woulde haue doone hym that iniurie to thinke that he woulde haue turned the churche money vnto his owne vse which often times with his owne hande erned bothe his owne lyuing and others too vvhich refused the wages which he might iustly haue chalenged woulde not also haue suspected hym off the same faulte if he had chosen the ministers at his pleasure withowte consente off the churche Or doo yow not thincke that there are manie which suspecte diuers off the Bishopps that waie which saie that for a dishe of fruicte of the gouldē gaiffe they lease owte and make all manner off marchandise of the Lordes orchardes that he vvhich hathe no gifte in his harte yet if he haue a gifte in his hande neede no other keie to opē the church doore and enter into a benefyce Yf therfore for the auoidinge of suspiciō of corruption by moneie it was needeful for Sainct Paule to communicate the election off such ministers with the churche howe muche more was yt needefull for the auoidinge off bothe the suspition off that vice and diuers others he shoulde doo the like in the ordinary ministers And if that vvhere needefull in S. Paule for vpholdinge off his honeste estimation to the greater fruicte off the gospell I saie as I saide vvhat Archebishop shall dare take vppon him the makinge off a minister vvithovvte consente off the churche For if Saint Paules innocencie of life vvhich as the diamonte a peble stone might shame all the Archbishoppes that liue this daie had neede off this aide they muste off necessirie runne into suspicion off all those vices vvhiche contemninge the iudgemente off the churches make suche elections off their owne autoritie Where yow saie that Saint Paule mighte have chosen them him selfe if he woulde I saie that it is vntrue ād a manifeste begginge of that in controuersie And to saie so is asmuche as if yow had saide he mighte haue hazarded his good estimacion if he woulde and lefte it at the curteousye off quarellers which sowghte euery occasion of speakinge euil of his ministerie Beside that yow muste vnderstande that in the gouernmente of the churches the Apostels vvere gouerned by the spirite of God whose counsaile when this was it was no more lawful for him to refuse yt thē to disobey the lorde Touching the vntrewth he chargeth me with in that I saide the churche chose 1. Act. it is before answered And it is a vaine quarell of the A. that there was no election off the church becawse an Apostel maie not be chosen by men As thowghe I had not set downe before when I spake off that election that I mean not the choise which was made off one owte off those two but the choise off those two owte of the whole churche not that choise which determined the Apostellshipp but which determined who they shoulde stande
for the Apostelship And if no election of the church can be saide to haue beene in the fyrste off the Actes because an Apostell can not be chosen off any but off God alone then can not the Apostels which the D. affirmeth be saide to haue chosen Matthias and Barnabas owte of the reste off the churche In the 1. 2. 3. sections off this diuision he hathe filled vp allmost a whole side wherin ther is nothinge at all which either is not gone before or commeth not after and so grosly repeted withowte ether newe coate or newe colour that I meruaile he is not ashamed For the places Act. 1. 6. 14. for that also Cor. 8. 2. I haue replied before to the other answere shall be made in their places Now then to begin̄e with the falsifyinge yow charge me with I saie that althowghe I haue not gyuen yow the same wordes yet I haue gyuē yow the same weighte and I acknowledge yow for no M. of the tonge by whose autoritie I shoulde be bound to the same wordes which yow vse I haue not taken yow as yow doo me at the worste but I haue gyuen yowr wordes a fauorabler meaninge then they deserue bycause I perceiued that yow mente to comprehende Cyprians tymes althowgh yowr wordes euen to Cyprians time woulde not so well beare it yt is disputed whether this worde vntyll or vnto dothe shutte owte or shut in the tyme wheroff it is spoken but there was neuer I think anie that dowbted vvhether that sayinge in cōmon speach mighte be stretched owte beyonde that time wherunto it is particularly applied Notwithstanding yowr wordes are yet more restreintiue For yt restreineth more to saie euen to suche a time then to saie simplie vntill suche a time for that encrease off the worde euen makethe the wall off separation higher But nowe he seethe the vntrwthe off this sayinge he castethe yt vppon Maister Musc and he must beare the weighte off yt But suche moste grosse ignorance off the estate off the primitiue churche was farre from him And Maister Musc cleareth him selfe off it well For when he saieth that the election of the minister by the voices off the churche endured vnto Cyprians tyme he meaneth not as the D. to put difference betwene the elections made by the people and the bishopp but shewethe onely a difference betwene elections made by consente off the people withowte the magistrate and betwene the elections made by the consente of the people withe the confirmation off the Magistrate And that this is his meaninge yt maie easely appeare For pursuinge the profe of that election by the churche without the magistrate alledging certein Canōs thus he cōcludeth After this sorte therfore vvere the Elders bishops and deacons in times paste chosen vvhiche fashion they still reteined vntill the tyme off Christian magistrates vvhose consente vnto the election off the bishops vvas required Therfore this absurditie beinge the Ans owne he muste be contente to beare yt Yt makethe no matter that this forme of election was not in some fewe churches off the worlde in Cyprians time nether is it meruaile althowghe in some places at that time they had departed from the institution of the Apostolicall churche If it be proued that Cyprian teachethe that it owghte to be so and that it is Gods ordinance if all the churches had declined from yt as there were verie fewe Cyprian muste needes by that sentence disalowe them Althowghe I muste also admonishe yow that if those fewe examples in Cyprians tyme coulde preiudice the trwthe yet yowr bishops election is not confirmed therby for it mighte be doone by the eldershipe of the churche by assemblie off manie bishops moste vnlikeste is yt off all other that it vvas doone at the pleasure off one bishope Let vs therfore come to examine Cyprians iudgemente and see vvhether I haue reported trwly of him Firste as a trewante lothe to goe to scoole seeketh the furthest vvaie so the A. afraide off the lighte off Ciprians vvordes makethe entrance into this sentence by halfe a score lines vvhich mighte haue bene in one Heere good reader as the A callethe for thy diligence so if thowe gyue a litle heede thow shalte see suche open and violente peruertinge as coulde not be doone withowte cracke off conscience Firste therfore let vs holde that vvhich I thincke is accorded off both partes that Cyprians purpose is to withdrawe the people from communicatinge with the ministrie off those which had fallen from the gospell vnto Idolatrie To the confirmation vvheroff vvhen he had alleadged the greuousnes off that crime he addethe especially seinge the people haue povvre to chuse vvorthie and to refuse vnvvorthie ministers As if he shoulde saie if it vvere not in yowr powre to refuse those vnworthie ministers yow mighte haue some excuse or if beinge in yowr powre to refuse the vnworthie yow had not also powre to chuse another worthy yow mighte haue likwise somewhat for excuse For yow mighte alledge peraduenture that it vvere better to kepe him stil then to be vvith owte altogether or to haue a nother as euill or worse then he but seinge yow haue bothe power to refuse the vnworthly and to a chuse a nother there muste needes befaulte That this is the meaninge off Cyprian and his argumente wherwith he calleth them backe from communicatinge vvith the ministrie off those vvhich had fallen all vvhich can set the nominatiue case and verbe together muste needes vnderstande Nowe let vs see vvhether the exposition off the Ans vvill mainteine this sayinge To accorde him and Cyprian vve muste firste expounde thes vvordes to haue povvre to chuse and to haue povvre to refuse to be to stande by while they be chosen or refused Whiche maister D. gatherethe belike becawse Cyprian saithe the election muste be had the people beinge presente In deede it appearethe the maner was then that he that was to be chosen was before them but is it a good reason that Cyprian woulde haue the people presente at the election therfore he vvoulde not haue them to chuse seinge he had sayde im̄ediatly before that they had powre to chuse Yt is well therfore that he added that yt owghte to be doone by their iudgemente so that if the churche iudged him not meet he owghte not to be minister And further addeth vvhich the D. is afraid of and whiche he shamfully deniethe in state wordes by their voices The examples out off the Actes wherwith he bringethe lighte vnto that vvhich he thawghte are touched before and amongest others by the electiō off the Deacōs whiche becawse the D. can not denie but it was by the churche he hathe lefte yt clean forthe and yet most plainly he sheweth this by exāple of an electiō which was lately made in the churche wherunto he vvritethe sayinge vvhiche vvee see to haue bene doone vvithe yovv in the ordeininge off our fellovve in office Sabinus thar the bishopricke shoulde be gyuen him by the
proue that As if I coulde no otherwise driue the bishopp from this sole election onles I coulde proue that the people can not erre in their electioÌ„ Or as if bishoppes elections were without danger off error so that he whiche will change them muste be driuen to seeke for suche electors as no error can take holde off And iff any barres were stronge enowghe to kepe yowr tonge from this vntrew dealinge my wordes which followe by and by after wherin I confesse the church maie erre had beene sufficient to restraine yt Againste my reasons here be bare wordes that the pastors are neuer the worse loued that are thruste vppon them I coulde haue as well as yow alledged the experience in other places if all men coulde haue seen yt and haue referred them to the manifolde fiâ—tes in lawe betwene the pastor and the people in our churches How often shall I tell him that the papistes are not the churche nor off the churche off Christe and therfore not to be suffred to haue to doo with the election off the minister this needed he not to haue asked if he had had his to be shorte which he repeteth so often in any commendation He asketh whether men allwaies continue in loue off those whom they haue chosen yt is easier to continew loue where loue is then bothe to fal into loue of him vvhom they coulde not awaie with and also to continew the course off that loue still And if the not seruinge off their affections breed hatered towardes him whom they loue yt will muche more make yt flame againste him againste whom yt was before kindled But still the A. imagineth off the churche as off dogges and which receiuinge meate at the hand off their pastor turne againe vpon him and reÌ„t him and not as sheepe vvhich heare the voice off their pastor And althowghe there be some hypocrites vhhich doo so yet all the church doth not so And therfore for their sakes and for the giuinge the deeper roote off loue in their hartes towardes the pastor yt is meete that this waie off free consente shoulde be taken As for the Hypocrites vvhen they shall ceasse to loue theyr pastors for rebukinge their faultes that shall be to the encrease of godes glorie Forsomuch as they are by so muche more inexcusable before God as they haue refused his admonition whom they them selues chose for that purpose And not that onely but the hatred conceiued off that dewtie off the minister shall be bridled and holden in rather by â—â—e remembrance off the iudgement vvhich he once in token off good will gaue off him For euen the earthely and naturall man hath this in him that whom he hath once loued hym if he hate afterwarde onles yt be for some thinge apparantly worthy off hatred he will be lothe to vtter it And althowghe for that his maners please him not he can not loue him yet leste he shoulde appeare inconstante and deceiued in his choise he will pretende to loue him still So that the consente off the churche in the election of the ministerie beinge profitable vnto the godlie and those vvhich are trewe sheepe that their loue maie abounde towardes their minister and in respecte off the Hypocrites and goates that they maie be more inexcusable before God and lesse hurtefull to men thes reasons stand still vntouched off the A. Yt is an easye thinge for M. D. Which neither proueth nor improueth any thinge by scripture to aske by what scripture proue that if the parishe choose an vnfitt minister the ministers and elders of the churches should aduertise c. The scripture I proue yt by ys that Saint Paule when he teacheth that all the faithfull are members off one misticall body off Christe which owghte to haue a mutuall care one off an other laide the foundations off this politie for as in the bodie off one particular church euery faithfull man coÌ„pared with an other in the same is a member one off a nother so in a more generall bodie off a whole Realme euerie particular churche coÌ„pared with other is likewise member of them therfore as nature teacheth my hande to helpe the disorder which is in another parte of my bodie so the spirite of God owte of his worde throwghe a fellow feelinge teachetche one churche to stretche owte her hande to put a waie as yt can the euill vvhich yt seethe approche vnto another And therfore when the scripture willeth that one shoulde admonishe another it is not onely a commaundement to euery singular man towardes his fellow but also to one whole companie towardes another societie And off this care extended so farr that one churche hath sente to admonishe another wee haue example in the epistle to the Corinthes where the Macedonian churches sente their embassadors with Saincte Paules Epistle bothe to moue the Corinthians to liberalitie towardes the poore and to receiue that vvhich vvas giuen by the churche vnto their vse And this maie serue to proue that one churche owght to admonishe a nother and therfore also those which are nexte as those which are fitteste for that pourpose That from the admonitioÌ„ off the churches yt is meete to come to synodes if the iudgemeÌ„t off the churches be contemned maie beshewed by proportioÌ„ from the place of our Sauiour Christe in Saint Mathew For as when one brother is not moued with the admonition of two or three the matter muste be referred vnto the churche to see vvhether the maiestie of it will moue him whom the authoritie off twoo or three woulde not euen so it is meete that the church that maketh lighte off the iudgement off twoo or three churches shoulde be pressed vvith the iudgementes off the diocese or prouince as shall be in that behalffe aduised And if I were in this poincte destitute off the worde off God yet the naked examples off the reformed churches owght to weighe downe a popish custome And that the magistrate owghte to laie to his hande iff the admonitions take not place it is manifeste by the reason which is alledged I haue looked maister Zuinglius Ecclesiast ouer and ouer againe The summe wheroff is that none shoulde take vpon hym any ministerie which is not called of some churche aÌ„d of the ministers nere abowte contrarie to the practise off the anabaptistes which entred into all churches and sometime put the pastor beside the pulpet from vvhich vvhether yow or vve be further let the reader iudge Where yow saie that I forgett my selffe which suppose now the churche maie err that said before yt was spirituall and iudgeth all thinges if yow coulde forget this vntrue dealinge I remembred my selfe well enowghe Thes cauilles which come so often without any colour off trewth are vtterly vnworthy off answer but as I haue saide in another place require rather a censor then a disputer Howbeit becawse there is nothinge so vnsauerie which some taste maie not be abused by I
which can not be nows the reason yow assigne in the fewnes in one place off the professors then and multitude now Althowghe yt be graunted that there are moe nowe in the cities then were then and that be geuen yow too that the multitude owghte to chaunge the forme off elections neither wheroff yow are hable to shewe yet yt still fallethe owte againste yow For allbeit ther be moe professors in a citie then were yt followeth not that there are moe belonginge vnto one assembly then there were thē Wherin I wil goe no further thē to the exāple of the church which yow alledge to haue chosen the deacons vvhere coulde hardly be lesse then sixe thowsande persons seing that at the second sermon of Saincte Peter there beinge fiue thowsande it is affirmed afterward that multitudes off men and weomen were added Now where shall yow haue lightly in the cities vvhich professe the gospell one onely church of so many thowsand persons cōsidering that for the greater cōmoditie of meeting and gouerning the whole masse off Christians in one citie yt is deuided into seuerall churches as it were flockes into seuerall feedinges And if yow vvoulde haue proued any thinge yow shoulde not haue considered howe the nomber off Christians are increased in their cities but howe they are encreased in their churches And so yow shoulde haue founde that by your owne reason the elections in the time off persequution owghte rather to haue bene made by one and the electiōs now by many seinge in persequuted churches for vvāte off the commoditie off diuiding them selues into proportionable assemblies the nomber beinge more the danger off tumulte and confusion muste by yowr owne sayinge be greater Yow saie yt is a verie good reason that because the churche was vnder the crosse therfore yt was few in nomber in comparison but yow answer not the auctoritie which I alledged touchinge the encrease off the children of Israell more vnder the crosse then in prosperitie The reason yow add off many hypocrites in the peace of the churche hath small force For that there are in persequuted churches manie hypocrites maie appeare by the Israelites which dred in persequution made often rebellions in the wildernes likewise by the complaintes off S. Paul that al sought their owne not Christes that al were turned from him That one example onely is hable to ouerthrowe that vvhich yow put so generally yet yowr one example off London is not hable to confirme your pourpose yt serueth yow therfore for a pinche at the citie and for no reason off yowr cawse And albeit the backslyding from the Gospell was throwgh the realme verie horrible in Queene Maries daies yet there is no cause to picke Londō owte as the worste seinge there were great nombers there which vvith hasarde off all they had and of their lyues frequented assemblies vvhere the worde off God was truly preached and the Sacramētes purely administred the like meetinges beinge rarely founde in other places no to our owne shame be yt spokē not in the vniuersitie where of moste righte they should haue beene What gaine yow by that the churche was diminished in Ierusalem seinge the decrease of one churche was the encrease off diuers other wherunto those off Ierusalē adioined them selues Therfore yow conclude not well in sainge that particular churches by persecutions are diminished because one churche off Ierusalem was so no more thē yow can saie that a man hath a vvhite head because he hathe one white heare on his head but I maie rather saie that by persequution the particular churches are encreased for somuche as Samaria and other churches were by that flight of Ierusalem partly adorned with teachers partly augmented in disciples And therby is confirmed that I haue set downe off the merueilous spawne off the churche vnder the crosse bothe becawse euerye one dryuen from Ierusalem was as good seede which browght his hundreth or fiftie folde and for that after Ierusalem was deliuered of that birthe she conceiued againe and browghtforthe as maie appeare a greater nomber then before What are my vvordes vverby I affirme that the churches in time off persecution meete often and kepe together yt is that I precisely denie Verely this is too homelie rhetoricke to affirme I saie that vvhich I manifestly denie And althowghe it be more clearer then the son̄e that a smaller nomber maie better knowe one a nother then a great those which dwell nere one to a nother then that dwell farre of and scattered those vvhich meete oftener then vvhich meete seldomer yet the A. dowbteth not to saie that the contrarie of this is a knowen trwthe Wher he alledgeth for profe the often conference and triall off euery one before they be receiued For the firste yt maie be easelie vnderstanded that seinge yt is daungerous for them to meet together godly politie doothe teache them to breake their companies as soone as they maie conueniently And therfore the publicke action ended off preaching prayinge and receiuing the Sacramentes the conference which may be and is commonly in the churches peace one vvithe another throwghe feare off the daunger vvhich maie come off being seene man it together is cut off As for the knowledge by triall off those vvhich are receiued into the churche if he knewe that yt comethe onely off the reporte off twoo or three which giue testimony off those which are to be receiued and that yt extendeth not to any vnderstanding gyuen to the churche off his giftes either of teaching or gouernment but onely that he is a faithfull man I saie if he knewe thes thinges or knowing thē woulde acknowledge them there shoulde be no cause vppon confidence off that triall to fasten such knowledge one of a nother in a churche persequuted Before I further answer the D. reason touching the change of the manners of the Christians in times off peace from that they were vnder persequution vnderstand good reader that this is the very reason off the archpapist Hosius againste the election off the church which affirmeth that there is greater grauitie and constantie in the Christians vnder persequution and therfore that this manner off election by the bishop was browght in nowe to Hosius and the D. I answer that when wickednes breaketh into open actions then they are no more Hypocrites but openly wicked and suche as owght not onely be taken heed off but without speedy amendement remoued I graunte yt is no shame to the churches to haue Hypocrites for asmuche as the iudgement off man can not discerne them and off them and none other is the parable off tares vvhich forbiddeth weeding vntill the daie off haruest and they are onely those which can not be rooted owte But to saie that beside those which are corrupt in religion yt is full off dronkardes whoremongers c. Yt is more then euer S. Paule reproched any the moste diffigured churches he wrote vnto For how manie suche persones as be founde in
her so manie botches hath she which doo not onely staine her bewtie but put her in hazarde off her liffe And if Sainte Paule for one vnclean person thowght that all the Corinthians had good cause of mourning ryuers off teares in euery mans heade are not sufficient for vs to bewaile the estate vvhich Maister D. telleth vs wee be in which by his saying haue fewe sober fewe chaste c. I leaue to the reader how euill the three places off Sainte Mathew are patched vpp together and how there is neuer a one off them vvhich proueth that he taketh in hande that there be in the churche open offenders which can not be rooted owte I giue vvarning onely to the simple reader that the A. beinge deceiued in interpretation off the parable off the sower doo not also deceiue him For there is nothinge les ment then that where one hearethe the worde profitably three doo the contrarie vvhich is bothe courious and vncomfortable onely he sheweth that off fowre kindes off hearers one onely receiueth fruict but off the nomber off those which heare fruictfully or otherwise not a worde And it maie be for anie thinge our Sauiour Christe setteth downe that in some places that one sorte of men vvhich heare vvith fruict are moe in nomber then all the other three vvhich heare vvithout fruict Yf wee shoulde saie that there is no church vvhere suche faultes be or that for suche faultes we shoulde make a departure from the church thes charges off Anabaptistrie vvhich sounde so often and so full in your mouthâ— mighte haue place But that it is an Anabapâ—isticâ—l cauil to saie that the multitude and swarme off knowen and open faultes argue wante off good gouernment and wholsome discipline in the churche yow are neuer able to shewe nether yowr selfe by argumeÌ„t nor owte of Maister Bull. or any other godly writer Shall there be no ende off this vnfaithful dealing Where in a syllable ys yt saide that the gospell can not be syncerely preached where great corruption off manners dooth appeare yet whilest yow confute this Yow vvoulde make men belieue that vvee affirme yt When I saie there be no knowen drunkardes or vvhoremongers in the churche I speake off that vvhich shoulde be vnto vvhich meaning the tenure off my disputacion would haue led yow if yow had bene willinge to follow For yow opposinge that for a bar vnto the peoples election th effecte off my answer was that yt is not meete to take aduantage off this that there be many suche dronkardes and vvhore mongers seinge they bothe maie and owghte either be browght to repentance and so are none suche as they were or thruste owte of the churche aÌ„d so not hinder the election This my meaning was cleare and the manÌ„er of speache if it had beene simply coÌ„sidered withowt circuÌ„stances restraining to this meaning is such as the scripture doth admit As when Paul saithe that the churchs of God haue no coustome to coÌ„tende he setteth forth not that which alwaies cometh to pas but what owghte to be alwaies For it may be that coÌ„tention may coÌ„tinew in a church many yeres and yet it not cease to be the churche of god The prosperite of the Gospell sheilded by authoritie of the Christian magistrate draweth by no necessitie vvith it suche aboundance of vvicked as yow suppose for althowghe hypocrisie may be more then vnder persequution yet knowen vvickednes of whoredome dronkennes c. may be easilier purged out off the church vnder a Christian magistrate So that the swarme off suche vvickednes vnder the Christian magistate more then vvhen there vvas none is not the faulte off the time but off the gouerners off churche or commen vvealth or bothe As for hypocrites I haue shewed that there is not so great daunger in them consideringe that their owteward doinges are the same vvith the children off God and the difference is onely in the harte Which althowghe yow denie yet my reason drawne of the nature off an hypocrite yow doo quite passe by That vvhich yow call the prosperitie mighte vvell be called the crosse and vvhip of the gospell yf it drewe suche a taile off synne as yow suppose For if vnder a Christian Magistrate either alwaies or for the moste parte not onely the nomber off hypocrites but of barefaced aÌ„d knoweÌ„ wicked shoulde be multiplied and not that onely but the good them selues shoulde wax worse that time mighte peraduenture after a sorte be called the prosperitie of those which professe the gospel but how the gospell maie be saide theÌ„ to prosper which is so manie waies plucked downe I can not vnderstaÌ„d And this is cleane coÌ„trarie to the fruictes of peace which the scripture declareth The Prophet as soone as he had spokeÌ„ of peace vvhich shoulde be published amoÌ„gest the Iewes addeth that Iuda shoulde then kepe her solemne feastes performe her vovves because the vvicked enemie off the churche vvas cut off Wherby he doothe not onely shewe that the ende off the peace of the church is to serue god more wholy then before but also that the peace gaue them more commoditie off seruinge off God then they coulde haue in time of persequution And if yow replie that so it shoulde be but it is not the answer is if it be not so yt is throwghe the greate and vnexcusable faulte off all and gouernoures especiallie vvhich hauinge moe meanes to intertaine all godlines suffer it to goe to vvracke But that peace off it selfe is an aide to godlie increase and confirmacion off the church yt is manifeste by that all the churches in Iurie Galile and Samaria beinge in peace vvere edified and vvalking in the feare off God vvere multiplied Now if they in the time off peace multiplied hauinge no further aide of the magistrate then that he hurte them not vvhat condemnatioÌ„ shall yt be if our churches vvhich haue assistance off the magistrate cannot vpholde them in that feare off God but they muste fall into suche riote as the A. supposeth And if multiplying off open wickednes and decrease of former godlines vvere so generall and so incident to the peace off the gospell as yow pretende there is no cause vvhy vvee shoulde praie so earnestly and often for it nai rather there shoulde be good cause off praying againste it For when it is giueÌ„ vs of God partlie for our ease and especially for the glorie of God in encrease of all vertue the cheife parte vvhich is the glorie off God beinge by yow shutte owte there is no cause vvhy vve shoulde praie for the other Yowr reason of hauinge a better fealinge in the time off persequution then in the peace of the gospell is very insufficieÌ„te especially to that yow vse it vnto off prouinge greater plentithe off knowledge in time off persequution then in peace considering that those wicked which neuer were in persequution nor haue that spirite vvhich is often times sharpened and quickedned by persequution knowe
trifling questions here albeit moste vnworthy yet are answered almoste all before And if there were a legion moe they are not onely confuted in that this manner off election by the churche confirmed by the magistrate hath bene vsed more then â—00 yeares together but also by the D. owne wordes wherby he leaueth yt in the princes pleasure so to order yt still For if there were such incoÌ„ueniences and absurdities as he imagineth how hath the practise continued so longe bene thowght good by so many good Emperours and so many learned men in all those ages Or if all they were a sleap or of so shorte sighte that they could not see thes inconueniences which the D. hath espied how commeth yt to passe that he leaueth yt in the magistrates pleasure to establishe this order encombred with suche inconueniences and absurdities For the chalenges wherby he would giue to vnderstand that I haue not faithfully alledged Musculus the firste is that I affirme that he vvente aboute to defend the election vsed vvhere he vvas by this that it approched to the election of the primatiue church which he saith is vntrue But the reason wherwith I confirme yt that Muscu saithe yt vavs made not by one minister but by al by the voices of the Senate vvhere some nomber off the people vvere He toucheth not The second that I call the choise off the minister by the churche the Apostolicall forme yet they are not my wordes but Musculus his authors vvhich calleth yt the oulde the fytteste the deuine the Apostolicall and lavvfull election Where he saith that Musculus dooth not call the other elections forced I woulde gladly knowe what difference there is betwene forced and thruste vpon For Musculus in the same tytle maketh all one a mynister thruste vppon the church and a minister which is not chosen off the church in thes wordes The forme off election vsed in the Apostles times is conformable to the libertie and priuiledge off the church vvherof Cyprian made mention and that forme off choise vvherby men began to be thrust vppon the people off Christe being not chosen off yt dooth agree to a church vvhich is not free but subiecte to bondage Hetherto yt hathe appeared that although Musc Iudgement be not wholy for vs yet the reasons vvhich he alleadgeth for this cause are suche as can not be shaken Now I will further shew that as there is some disagreement betwene ours and his Iudgement so there is further distance betwene hym and the D. First therfore he saithe that as the election by the church endured vntill the time off Christian magistrates so the election made by the church and confirmed by the christian magistrate endured vntill that time that the bishoppe off Rome hauinge wronge owte both from the Emperour and the people their right in the election tooke it all to him selfe The D. denieth this stoutly Secondarily Musculus maketh the disorders off electioÌ„s by chusinge vnmeete persons or by corruption throwghe giftes or parciall fauour to beginne then especially when the election taken from the people cam into the bishoppe of Rome and his suffragans handes The D. cleane contrary that thes disorders were especially in the elections by the people and beste auoided when the election is called to the will and becke off one bishoppe Thirdly Musc maketh yt an vnlawfull forme off election when yt is made of the prince but maister D. saith that yt is in the princes powre to make election off ministers him selfe if he will or committe yt to others iff he liste Fourthly Musc helpinge him selfe off the authoritie off Ierome saith that there was no election in poperie becawse they were made without the knowledge off the people and condemneth also the election of the bishopes made by the Canons for the same cause But M. D. saith yt is a moste conuenient and sufficient election which notwithstandinge in that poincte is all one with the election in poperie Last off all wherin lieth a great weight of this controuersie he dooth not saie simply that this forme off choise by the church is vnmeete and inconuenient for this age off he churche but that it coulde not be by and by and out of hand restored and after a litle that it could not be in al churches by and by restored Wherby he gyuethe to vnderstand that in some places yt might be forthwith restored and in other all men owght endeuour to bringe yt in againe withall coÌ„uenient speed So appeareth that although Musculus be pretended yet Pigghius and Hosius be his storers Here cometh to shewe the manner off the election off the Tigurine churche wheron the D. heareth hym selfe so much vvhich as Bullinger whom he cyteth for his author reporteth is this After he had shewed that in all lawfull ministeries off the worde there is required that with innocencie of life he shoulde be learned then chosen accordinge to the worde off God thirdly after he is chosen and presented to the church haue imposition of handes he addeth Heruppon the Tigurine church hauinge taken her leaue off the inordinate ordination off the popishe bishoppe chuseth off the learned and off the ministers off the Senators and off the councell off the 220. that is to saie off the common people vvhich out off the learnedest and honestest deacons should present certeine that are to bee made Bishoppes vnto the Senate and people Off vvhich vvhen the Senate and people haue chosen one they sende him vnto the church ouer vvhich he is set and vvith him a counseiller vvhich doth commend him vnto his church Then the cheifest off the bishoppes off that citie or other place vvhere this nevve bishop muste be maketh a Sermon and in publike praier made off the church in this behalfe layinge on his handes commendeth the church vnto him Wherin howe many thinges are fauouringe our cause and openly fighting against the D. vppon that I haue before noted of the election of the churches of Berne I leaue to be considered ALthowghe the D. as his vse is speaketh off one thinge so often and that in the same diuision and with spaces put betwene so that yt is harde to giue answer with any conuenient vnderstandinge off the reader yet I will as well as I can referre his scattered sayinges to certeine heades Wheroff the firste is that he did not meane to proue by thes places off Timothe and Titus that the election belonged vnto one man Wheruppon he chargeth me with willfull deprauinge off his answer Yt muste be therfore considered if we maie holde this wett eele by the mouthe The Adm. saithe in the primitiue church no minister vvas placed in the congregation but by consente off the people but novve that authoritie is giuen to the bishoppes handes alone the D. answereth by the place off Timothe and Titus Now this beinge a commaundement and by his iudgement both directed onely to Tim. and Tit. and to them as bishoppes yt followeth
the Epistell againste the circunstance off the place he alledgeth that the moste off the preceptes conteined in that epistell doo properly perteine vnto Timothe as he is a bishop Which is vntrwe especially in that sense he taketh a bishop which the Apostels neuer knewe off for there shal be scarse two sentences found in the whole epistle which agree not to euery pastor And set aside those whiche cōcerne teachinge there are very fewe not commen with him vnto an elder which onely gouerneth Beside diuers belonging vnto the whole church as well as vnto him and some rather to other partes off the church then vnto him yet iff the moste shoulde properly belonge vnto him howe can he proue that the sentence off not layinge one off handes rashly doth onele belonge vnto him he hath cyted many to proue that Saint Paule saith yt doth belonge vnto the bishop which is not denied but that yt doth onely belonge by this place off Saint Paule which is denied he hath not one Nay diuers off his authors heere alledged haue the contrarie off that he pretendeth to proue by them For Bull. I haue saide Calu. denyinge that ether Paule or Timothe did any thinge in elections withowt the consent off the church towching the bare ceremonie off layinge on the handes he dowteth whether yt were doone by one or many And Ierome althowgh he saie that the ordinacion belonged to the bishop yet I haue shewed in the former booke that he cōfesseth that that was by no order of God or rule of the Apostles by which he confesseth that the bishopps were equall vnto the reste of the elders but onely by constitutiō off men Therfore he is vntrwely cited to confirme that by this place off the Apostell the bishoppe hath ether the election or ordination vnto him selffe As for Chrysostome and Oecumenius vnto whome is added Beza pag 226. Where this is repeted I answer at ones that yt semeth violent that the Apostle vsinge the worde eldershipe shoulde shutte forth those which were properly called elders And where I alledged pag. 226. that Chrisostome ment not by those wordes to put a distinctiō betwene elders by age and office I was deceiued The occasion was because he doth so in the same epistle where he had no more cause then heere and not lokinge vppon the the place when I wrote I tooke one for another But yt is to be noted that their interpretation is directly againste the D. for Chrysostome affirmeth that the Bishoppes off Ephesus which appeare to haue bene diuers in the Actes did lay on their handes and Beza that all those vvhich had the mynistrie off the vvorde are meant by the vvord presbitery So that by their iudgement one onely did not ordeine nor lay on handes both which the D. affirmeth As for the other sentence off Chrysostome with Theophilacte althowgh Paule lefte vnto Tite to doe those thinges which were ioined with most honour yt foloweth not that he lefte them to be doone otherwise then himselfe did them But he doth to much abuse his reader which would make hym beleue that he drewe this from the godly writers which he hath from professed enemies off the trwth For thes are the reasons off Pighius which to proue that the bishopp onely should choose and not the church alledged thes twoo places off Tite and Timothe which the Answerer hath Thus the firste reason off the D. with all the authorities wherwith he hath walled yt is gone to the ground for as for Ambrose testimonie yt maketh nether whot nor kolde no man dowteth but that Timothe owght to be circumspecte in ordeininge ministers The second reason is that iff the election off a bishop had off necessytie perteined vnto the people thē S. Paul would not haue writtē to Timothe of yt but vnto the churches as well as vnto him As though there were not many thinges in those epistles necessay for the churches to doo or as though they inscribed vnto Titus and Timothe are not written for the instruction of the whole churche euen in that very sentence off imposition off handes For when Saint Paule tawght that Timothe mighte not lay on his handes rashly he tawght the whole churches that they shoulde not chuse any rashely What is I besech yow in Saint Lukes two bookes dedicated vnto Theopilus which doth not aswell perteine vnto all sortes off men in the church as vnto him That the holy ghoste therfore intituleth his bookes sometimes vnto particular persons was not that the Doctrine conteined in them shoulde more perteine vnto them then vnto others but ether because he woulde lifte vpp their heade aboue the reste or for some other particuler circumstance .. And in Maister Caluines iudgement they were both written rather for instruction off other in the church then for Timothe and Titus For there beinge great resistance made vnto those younge men off diuers in the churches off Ephesus and Crete the Apostle to supporte them againste their aduersaries and to gird them with more authoritie so intituled their epistles that they mighte knowe that those thinges they did ād tawght they nether did nor taught of them selues but by his cōmaundement As therfore all thinges conteined in thes Epistles were to be knowen off Timothe and Titus so were they all to be knowen off euery one in those churches And as there are thinges in them the exercise wheroff concerned Timothe and Titus onely so there are other the exercise wheroff did at no hand apperteine to any off them As for the circumstance off the place which he saieth is against my replie he sheweth none But there is a manifest circūstance againste him which the Apostle by and by addeth kepe they selfe pure and communicate not vvith the faultes off other as iff he should saie althowghe thow canste not hinder the ordeining off insufficient officers of the church yet kepe they selfe pure Moreouer if this writing vnto Timothe alone that he should laie handes off none rashely shoulde giue him alone authoritie to ordeine and electe pastors then yt should followe that not onely the church and elders off Ephesus but the Bishopes which were there together with Timothe should haue bene shutte owte which iff the D. dare not saie beside that this holde is gone he muste recante the sole election and ordination by Timothe Yow maie easely put me owte off dowbte off that which I neuer dowbted and which I haue somewhere confessed that by the ceremonie off layinge on off handes the whole forme off orderinge is vnderstanded But off that yow shoulde proue that in that place off Saint Paule it is so vnderstanded althowghe yt is not that which can hurte our cause yow bringe not so much as maie induce vnto any the leaste suspiciō Your reason that he did electe because he did appoincte is to symple For albeit to chuse be to appointe yet euery one which appointeth chooseth not no more then yt followeth that because euery man liueth
is a popishe shifte as I haue shewed sufficiently before confuted yt hath no grounde in the vvorde testimony wherout he woulde pull yt For by a fygure off metonymy he noteth the peoples voice because by giuinge it they gaue also testimony what they the wght off him Where it is to be noted that the D. giueth no more to the churche off God then S. Paul giueth to straungers froÌ„ yt of whom he willeth that the bishop shall haue a good report There followeth the open violence doone vnto August wordes Where first let the reader obserue againe that this wresting of the example of Eradius against the election of the church was taken from Pighius as appeareth manifestly But for answer vnto Pigbius and the D. it muste be vnderstanded how for that election of Eradius to be bishop after August decease there were assembled two bishopes besides August 6. Elders beside Eradius with the reste of the clergie and people For what purpose all thes if it were in Augustines powre to choose onelie After yt appeareth that Augustine did call the people to haue there consente because he had experience off trouble and discontentement of the people off Millen for that Seuerus the bishop there did appoincte his successor before his death withowte speakinge any thinge theroff vnto them vvhich could not be auoided off Augustine if he mente to chuse any againste the will off the people For yt had bene better for him to haue appoincted one as Seuer us did vvithowte communicatinge the matter vnto them then in communicatinge yt to take one againste their willes Againe where the D. vppon those wordes I vvill haue Eradius my successor woulde haue that Augustine onely had the election off him he is coÌ„futed by and by after with his owne wordes I saie that I vvill haue him because I knovve that yovv vvill haue him And after he vvilleth that the publike notories shoulde as vvell note their voices as his vvill in this matter that saith he your consentes fall not to the grounde or become voide Wherunto also pertaine the subscriptions of them which folowed Which althowgh the D. saith are referred onely vnto the peticion off Augustine to be discharged off the hearinge off ciuill matters yet the wordes sounde otherwise For when he required their subscription to those Actes yt is cleare that he muste be vnderstanded to haue spoken off both those matters otherwise he woulde haue required subscription to that Acte and not vnto the Actes And where in the ende for an other reason he addeth Augustine was appointed bishope when Valerius bishope off Hippo was a liue I see not howe it maketh for him one word For if he think that Valerius off his Authoritie did it he is vtterly deceiued seing Possidonius writeth that Valerius spake vnto the people to prouide and to ordeine an elder off the cytie and sheweth how he was ordeined by the consente off all the people Which thinge yff it were not more lighter then the none daies off this Epistle off August yet yt mighte appeare by other as where he declareth that Pinianns was ordeined off the people elder off the church againste his will. moe might be alleadged but thes shall suffyse Sauinge that I muste put Maister D. in remembrance howe he merueilously forgetteth him selfe For grauntinge me before that the councell off Carthage wherat Augustine was presente decreed that the election shoulde be made by the commen consente off the people clerkes and bishopes in the same prouince he must heere needes confesse that ether Augustine did there ioine together in election with the church and the clergie as they terme them or that he brake the order off the Councell which could not be vvithowt his fault although the election off the church had bene as the D. esteemeth yt but a thing indifferent And the truth is yt appeareth that August had in that election an expresse regard vnto the decree off the councell which caused him beside the eldership off the church and people to send for two other bishops to be assistants Wherupon the reader may see how there is no light off wordes so cleare which Phighius and the Ans misled will not giue thâ—nser to darcken Besides that Ambrose calleth yt a diuine election which is made by the church which he could not onles yt were by the institution off God the whole discourse off the Epistle teacheth that the election off the people is there accounted off as necessary For when the church off Vercella did linger the time in not chusing a bishop vvhen it vvas also infected vvith Heretickes vvhy did not Amb. at least by vvay off Lapse take the election vnto him self but vvriteth vnto them reprehending them that they did not aske for a bishop as other churches were vvont to doo Gregor Nazienz speaking there off diuers elections vvherin still the people bore one part and that withowt controlement speaketh more for that election in that one place then the D. hath hitherto or in the residue of his treatise is able to shew And where he might seeme to haue somewhat nipped at it in shewing how at certeine elections some off the people were contentious he healeth that euen in the next sentence to this saying that at that time it was to be feared lest he ovvght to iudge the popular regiment better ordered then their ovvne and after maketh mention off the corruption off those which were fellow elders vvith his father but obserue I pray yow againe the D. faith fulnes which expouÌ„deth the worde churches the clergy Where learned he thus to expound Let it be that as in the scripture sometime so in the auncient fathers the eldership off a church is called by the name off church where can he euer shew that the eldership or as he termeth it the clergy of one onely church vvherof Greg. speaketh is called by the name off churches In steed therfore that he should haue translated both the richer and they off great authority in the church vvere cleane from that euill he hath translated the churches that is to say the clergy c taking the nominatiue plurall for the genitiue syngular Which although in the latin toung if one take not heed vnto the sense may deceiue yet vvhen the D. had the Greeke which hath off the church before him as it seemeth by cyting the greeke in the same place by and by after ether he vnderstood it not or willingly peruerted the meaning So I leaue to the reader whether I haue reasoned to the pourpose or no and whether yow besides wordes haue any thing at all As in certeine other places so in this in steed off that I should haue taken the quotacion which came after I taking the quotacion in my paper booke which went before was deceiued and for the 6. and 7. of Socrates set downe the 6. and 7. of Eusebius This verely is the error which the D. maketh so
much more owghte the bishops election which hath so manie bankes both off ignorance and euill conscience to put him from the waie of a good election be susteined by the iudgement off others And yt ys vntrwe that it is plaine that the church was heere shut forth For althowgh yt was nether in the ministers powre nor the peoples to chaunge this election yet the faste there mentioned beinge generall and the accoumpte off their embassage and successe therof beinge afterwarde made vnto the churche yt is not vnlike but in the approbation which that election coulde admit the church also had her parte That which is heere added owte off Beza vvhich the D. woulde haue so diligently noted is but to vvaste paper For vvee holde that it is moste conueniente the people shoulde haue the ministers and elders goe before and directe them in their elections But yt is moste directly againste the D. For therby appeareth that Beza is off that minde that althowgh the people be ignorant and vntractable yet they owght not to be cut of from ecclesiasticall electiōs but directed and called to some moderation Off that which remaineth in this diuision the canons called the Apostels that off Antioche Eusebius and others which speake off ordeining make nothing to this question which is off election consideringe that yt hath bene shewed not onely that ordinacion differeth from election but also that the councells from time to time haue confirmed the election by the churches So that iff there haue bene any elections made by the Bishopes alone they haue bene directly contrary to the tenure of the councelles In the councell off Nice althowgh his boldnes be greater then in the other canons hauing chaunged the wordes off the councell and in steede off ordinacion put election yet hath he no more warrant off the wordes off that canon then off the others And albeit the generall answer is more then sufficient to resiste suche naked assertions yet euen in this councell it is manifestly to beshewed that that canō is to be vnderstāded of ordinacion as it is distinguished from election For in the letters which the Synode off Constantinople wrote vnto the councell holden at Rome yt is thus written Touching the care off the gouernement off euery church yovv knovv that the oulde decree and appointement of the fathers off the Nicene councell hath preuailed from time to time that the inhabitants in euery prouince taking to them if they vvill and if yt be profitable those vvhich are next adioining should make the elections According to the tenure vvherof vnderstand yovv that the residue of the churches vvith vs are gouerned VVherupon vve haue in our generall councell set our bishopp off Constantinople Nectarius in the sight off the Emperour Theodosius and clergy off that citie the vvhole citie giuing theyr voices therunto And so goeth forward with the election off the bishop off Antioche and confirmacion off the bishop off Ierusalem Where yt appeareth manifestly not onely that the ordinacion gyuen by that canon to the bishop did not shut owt the election off the people but that yt implied necessarily an election by the people and clergy ioined with yt For the Synode saith that those elections vvhich vvere made by consent of the church vvere made according to the decree off the Nicene councell And if it should be as the D. pretendeth that the councell off Nice ment to gyue the whole interest off election vnto the bishops and to take yt from the church then coulde not that councell haue saied that they made the Nicene councell the squire off their elections when they admitted the suffrages off the people And that there be no doubt heroff I will set downe the wordes off the councell off Nice which are these Let the people chuse and the bishop approue and seale vp the election vvith them For Gratians distincions vvith his glosse first them selues gyue me defense enough against all the force wherwith they assaile this cause as when he saith that the other priestes vnder degree off a bishop may be ordeined off their ovvne bishop so that both the citisens and the rest off the priestes gyue their assent And the glosse vpon the second canon off that distinction saying the Bishop alone may gyue the degree vnto priestes addeth alone that is to say vvithovvt other bishopps Then I coulde oppose the authoritie off Illyricus which sheweth plainly that the wordes cited owt off the 63. distinction by the D. be a mere lie off Gratian. Howbeit I will not gyue ether Gratian or his glosse that honour as once to vouchesafe hym off any answer in the church of god And that thow maiest know good reader what maner of man he was of vvhom the D. plunged seeketh helpe vvith commendation also of his interpretation euen where it is condemned off protestantes writers off our time as heere thow seest and further shall appeare I will in a word aduertise the. That whether he vvere the brother off Lombard tharchepiller of Antichristes seat borne with a third brother of a strompet as they write vvhich couer the shame of his birth or Lombardes bastard conceined by a Nun which by reuelation accompanied her selfe vvith Lombard vvhether so euer I saie he vvere off thes this is certeine that in gatheringe the canons off the councelles he endeuored by mighte and maine to make them agree vvith the Patrone off the adulterous church off Rome Therfore in goynge aboute to reconcile thee gouernemente off the elder churches off Christe vvith that vpstarte Synagogue off Antechriste as yt vvere to make accorde between the owle and the rauen there is no kinde of false dealinge nether in addinge changinge dimynishinge false interpretinge nor other corruptions and that contrarie to the cleare lighte off wordes controrolmente off recordes extante to confute him wherin he hath not caried awaie the bel of vnshamfastnes from all that euer wrote before him or in his time Off thes corruptions there are almoste as many both vvitnesses and gath erers off our owne cotrey men and of others as haue at any time bene exercised in this fielde off confutation off the popishe religion As for his glossers as the Popes hyred seruantes such as flattered for a cruste off breade sayinge yea to his yea and nay to his nay they shall goe to gether with their maister And let euen this place of the D. befor a sey off the glosses impudencie in expounding Leos wordes For where Leo speakinge of electiō setteth forth the intereste of the churches with all thes wordes that the minister ovvghte to be chosen by the consente off the people by the voices off the people by their good vvilles and that none be ordeined vvhich they desyre not vvhich they vvishe not for vvhich they require not all thes wordes this good glosse bringeth me vnto this that the people shoulde onely gyue testimonie off his good behauiour vvhich is before confuted And if he saie here
that I deale not equally which barre him off that authoritie that I haue sometimes vsed my selfe ▪ he owghte to remember that a foreine testimonie and witnes off an enemie is glorious and that I hauinge vvarre in thes questions off the discipline not onely vvith him but with the Papistes mighte with commendation strike the◠thinges with their owne sworde which he hauinge herin the same cause vvhich they haue can not doo That which is gathered off Ambroses election owte off Theodorete is moste vntrwe ▪ for yt is manifeste that Ambrose was chosen by the whole church off Mylane and neuer a vvord to proue that the Byshops had the righte off election but the contrarye by the wordes and circumstances off the storie And wheras vppon the bishoppes offer vnto the Emperour to appointe one the D. woulde make the intereste of election a runninge and walkinge righte firste as the emperours gaue vnto the bishoppes thinges vvhich vvere vnmeete for them so yt was no meruaile if the bishops sometimes offred vnto the Emperours that vvhich perteined not vnto them Which may well appeare there by the answere off the good Emperour which refused yt as a thinge vvhich he had not to doo with and vnmeete for him Secondly yt is very like that for the diuersities of iudgementes vvhich vvere emongeste the people the bishoppes perceiuinge that they shoulde run into displeasure off one off the parties woulde haue bene glad to shifte off that euill will and lay yt on the Emperour which was better hable to beare it last of all they offred the Emperour that which he willed them to doo which vvhen yt was to ordeine onely as the issue declared and not to chuse the churches election can be by no meanes preiudiced in that offer off the bishops As for Chrysostomes 3. booke de Sacerdotio besyde that I doubte not but if yt had any thinge of Valewe for yow yow would alledge yt yt is the same authoritie which Hosius alledgeth and alledgeth in grosse as the D. doth againste the churches election To the D. firste reason againste the churches election vvhich standeth in that there haue bene great contentions and diuersitie off myndes amongeste the churches I answer that the Apostles vvhen there fell a contention and a iarr amongest those off the church neuer entred into any such deliberation off cuttinge awaye the churches libertie contrariwise they estemed the neareste waie to heale vppe the breach to gyue them some thinge more in that election off Deacons then was ordinarie For where they were accustomed to shew the way in other elections and by ripenes off their iudgemente helpe the weaknes off the People there they suffring the church to goe before folowed with their approbation And not onely in respecte off that election but if a man will consider the vvhole estate off the primatiue church in the Apostles time it shall appeare plainly that if there were euer good cause to take away the churches election throwgh contentions and diuersities off mindes that was in the Apostles times For the churches off God then almoste throwghowt the world standinge of Iewes and gentils and there beinge such a naturall hate betweene those two peoples as vvhatsoeuer the one woulde the other commenly vvoulde not and contrarywise if the Apostles had iudged that for reason vvhich the D. estemeth highe vvisdome they shoulde neuer haue permitted any election vnto the churches For albeit the knittinge off both those peoples into one profession off the gospell did mortefy that deadly hatred which was naturally in thē yet notwithstandinge yt appeareth by diuers places off the scripture that there vvere such remnantes off that hatred lefte that nether the Apostles them selues which were so vvise peace makers and so kunninge tiers off loue knotes nor yet the ministers and elders which had receiued the firste fruictes off the spirite off God coulde kepe them from moste daungerous contencions And Maister Zuinglius off vvhom the D. woulde seeme to receiue some succour in this cause euen when their churches were moste dangerously infected with Anabaptistry and many nourished it in wardly vvhich durste not vtter it openly teacheth that this forme off choise by the churche was to be kepte Nether is it to bee passed by that Basil noteth that one Anthimus in choosinge a bishop withowt the churches voices filled all Armenia vvith sedition Whervnto add the testimonie off Chrysostome where he askinge vvhy Peter communicated the election vvithe the Disciples answereth leste the matter shoulde be tourned into a bravvle and haue fallen to a contention When he assigneth the cause off contention cleane contrarie to the D. that the election was not communicated with the church Secondarily iff the churches elections shoulde be taken awaie because off cōtentions which happen in them Monarchies which oft haue declyned into tyrānie and bene abused to oppression off the subiectes shoulde haue had an ende long a goe and other such moste lawfull and necessarie aides off this present life owghte to be taken awaie as those which are abused And to come to ecclesiasticall affaires councelles by the D. reason owght to haue no place in the churches off Christe off which it is saide that there was neuer seen good issue of them and that throwgh merueilous ambition and desyre off contention in them thinges ovvte off order vvere not remedied but made vvorse Thirdly the examples off the contentions which the D. hath heaped vpp to gether beside that they are in parte not off the churche with yt selfe but off the church with hererickes which is her commendation as in the election off Ambrose beside that also it is noted specially that the people off Alexandria was off a Mutinous and stirring nature and therfore vniustly obiected againste the whole estate of the church beside this I saie thes examples alledged by the Answ are so farre from weakeninge the churches election that they make yt stronger For notwithstandinge those contentions had vnder bothe Christian magistrates and Bishops there was not onely no counseill taken to barre the churches off their election but were as hath bene shewed councells from time to time to ratifie yt And if the Emperours and Bishops had not thowght yt necessary that the churches shoulde haue intereste in their elections or had thowght as the D. that bothe the churches were put in hasarde of false teachers and the commenwealth off vprores by reason off popular elections yt had bene greate folie or madnes rather to haue suffred that which they mighte haue so easelie remedied Which opinion off the necessitie off the churches interest as yt hath appeared by diuers examples before alledged so maie it clearly be seene in the letters off the good Emperour Constantine to the Cytisens off Nicomedia which althowghe they had chosen to his great greife one Eusebius Bishop dooth not therfore take awaie the election from them but moueth to a newe And albeit they had abused their righte in
chusing such a one as was an Arian a runnigate from his former bishoppricke a railer of the Emperour yet he confesseth still that yt belonged vnto them to make a hewe election Fourthly what will he say to that that the people bridled the rage of the scribes and pharises againste the truth and ministers theroff in that they were a fraide off them that the Bishop off the church being an Arrian the people haue bene for the most parte Catholike That also the Emperour hath displaced the catholike bishop chosen by the church ād placed an Arian Which disorders beinge often cōmitted by the Bishops maie by the D. rule as well depriue them of their intereste in ordering and confirming as the people in chosing What also that the euill disposition off the people hath for the moste parte proceded off the mouing off their euill gouernours So that people diuers times good when the rulers were naughte hath bene seldome naughte whē their gouernours were good besides all this there are other faultes off Symonie off choise off moste dissolute and most vnlearned ministers wherwith the sole election off the bishops is so infamous and the churches election scarsly to be touched with that many contentions off the people woulde drawe les blould off the churche then the choise onely off one suche blinde and lame minister as many off the assemblies off the bishoppes for that purpose sende forthe by whole armies Laste all as in other reasons before I haue shewed that the D. defendinge the same cause which the Papistes vseth the very selfe same armour bournished by the names off Zuinglius Caluin Beza c. so here he hath the very selfe same reason which the Papistes vsed for the bishoppes sole election wherunto Caluin maketh answer For vnto the Papistes sayinge that the people were shut forthe because off the contentions and tumultes which happened often times he answereth confessing there were such motions and sturres but that the taking awaie off the churches electiō was browght in for a remedy against those sturres he affirmeth to be a plaine lie and sheweth that there were other waies to meete with those disorders as to punishe them which should moue any tumult And so goeth forward in shewinge the trewe cawse off the falling awaie off this libertie from the churche To all the reste off his reasons I haue answered before at large sauinge that he hath embossed owte this laste with a sentence off Chrysostome vpon Iohn drawen from Hosius who vseth this testimonie againste the election of the churche Where both Hosius and the Ans shoulde haue learned to haue put a difference betwene a confused multitude and the church off god For I woulde aske off Hosius howe shamles so euer he be whether he dare define the church off God which is the spouse and body off Christe to be a certeine thinge full off tumulte and sturres consistinge ad rashly compacted for the moste parte of folie c. and yet ether the answer is not afraied to saie that this is the difinition that is to saie the very nature and vnchangeable propertie of the church off God or els if he vnderstand yt of some other companie he hath saide nothinge againste the election off the church And verely I can not see howe he coulde speake more vilely of the moste disordred rowte off moste godles people then he semeth to doo off that assemblie vvhich beinge indewed with the wisdome of the moste higheste he calleth a thing consistinge off folies and which beinge the piller off trewth he lykeneth vnto waues off the sea By which symilitude the scripture setteth forthe the estate of the reprobate or at leaste off the wicked vvhich haue as yet no societie with our Sauiour Therfore to conclude seinge that the election off the churche in her ministers hath grounde owt off the worde off God both in commaundement and continuall practise both in the olde Testamente and in the newe consydering also it hath allowance off commen reason the approbacion off all times after the Apostles as longe as ther was any sinceritie in peace and perquution both by councells and Emperours decrees both by godly writers ancient and off our time and considering he hath not so much as browghte an example to the contrarie owte off any auror and if he coulde yet the same is condemned not onely by the worde off god but by continuall good harmonie off councells one in the necke of another diuers 100 yeares and forasmuch as the Ans hathe this question of election by the bishope onely commen with the Papistes and hathe had both sworde and buckler ministred him owte off the moste grosseste Papistes I conclude that both the church owghte to haue her consente in the election off her ministers and that the sole autoritie off bishops creating ministers is vnlawfull Vnto this question off election and ordination belongeth the 2. chapter of the 4. tract of ceremonies in ordeining off which the 2. Diuision beinge answered and the first and third vnworthy of answer there remaineth onely the fowrth Againste that he alledgeth that the bishop mighte as well say receiue the holy goste to the ministers made by him as to vse the wordes off the Lordes supper I replied that there was a commaundement for the one and not for the other wherunto he saith that there is no speciall commaundement Which is no answer For if the generall commaundement off kepinge that whole institution doo comprehende this beinge aparte theroff then the argument standeth That he bringeth off the minister sayinge withowt inconuenience This is my bodie and in recitall off the commaundementes thow shalte haue no other god but me is nothing worthe seinge the inconuenience is taken away by preface off God spake thes vvordes Christe tooke bread c. The place of Timothe vvith Maister Caluins expositiō is vtterly impertinent For it is not question whether God doth gyue his giftes to them which he calleth or no but vvhether he giueth them by this means of sayinge receiue c. where he saith that the Apostels when they laide on their hands likely vsed thes wordes it is vntrwe considering that Saincte Luke pursuing the leste of those ceremonies which were vsed made no mencion off it being in the D. iudgement worthiest off all other to be followed And if they had vsed yt yet yt folowed not that the bishops maie doo it considering that it was proper onely to the Apostles to giue the giftes off the holy goste by layinge on off handes Where he saith that Christe commaundinge the sea to be quiet and breathing vppon his disciples confirmed his diuinitie I answer that he did the same in commaunding to receiue the holy goste which otherwise he woulde haue praied for as at other times when he gaue testimonie off his humanitie Caluin althowgh he vse not the same example yet vseth the like when he compareth the imitation off thes wordes receiue the holy goste with those being saide
haue saide or Doctors then and Doctors if he had ment to make them all one But all this had not needed if the Ans woulde haue stoode by his former worde in the writinge intitled The Doctors booke For in sayinge there that the Apostle in the Epistle to the Corint speaketh onely off Apostels Prophetes and Doctors Leauing out Euangelistes and yet Euangelistes and pastors necessarie he dooth manifestly confesse that thes functions differ betwene them selues Nether can he saie that he spake there accordinge to my sense For I had not then ether spoken or written any worde off that matter Thus in that he is called the Doctor off suche a churche in parte is answered the question how yt can be shewed that he is tied to a certeine churche And for further answer when as admitting that there is suche an office he can not denie but the institution off it is amongest other spoken of vnto Titus all those mynisteries being appointed to a certein towne and congregation yt foloweth that that office ys likewise Moreouer considering that exhortation and doctrine be necessary for the interteinement off a churche in the trwe seruice off God in that S. Paul parting thes betwene the Pastor and Doctor and placing the office off the Pastor especially in exhortation ascribeth that off teaching principally to the Doctor yt followeth that the Pastor being tied vnto a place the Doctor muste also wherby is likewise answered his other question how it can be proued that the doctor was gyuen in aide off the pastor for the pastor being by the bādes of his vocatiō especially tied vnto exhortation a supplie of teaching being nedefull it must be fetched at his handes whose proper profession that is Last off all herby appeareth what an abuse yt is in the vniuersitie that they are created doctors which not onely doo not the office but haue not so muche as a certeine place assigned to teach in which amongest other are the two principall thinges I mislike as vnlawfull Where in the end off his booke he saith that it were cofusion and Barbarisme to take away such degrees he doth shamefull iniury to diuers reformed churches in Sauoy and Swisserland where all kinde of learning and good behauiour florishing those degrees are not But it is to be noted that together with the churches Musculus especially hath his part in this charge off Barbarisme c. The churches not hauing the other degrees in artes which are indifferent gyue no sentence off the Doctorshipp but Musc doth plainly declare his misliking For hauing spoken against the popish Doctors he addeth vvherfore I haue often merueiled vvhat diuers notable ministers off Christ meane that they glory so much off the title off an vniuersitie Doctorship as though any autoritie came to their doctrine therby Where it is knowen that those whom he ment were modest gloriyng no further then that as a meanes to draw more credit to their ministery they receyued it which Muscul to wcheth them for Therfore onles he had bene driuen headlong he would at least haue left his degrees indifferent and not such as withowt which no godly honestie nor ciuilitie can stand In the next diuision his answer is vnsufficient For the reason against reading Ministers is not onely because they are appoincted to no certein place but for that they are vtterly without all ministerie and whether euer they shal be or no yt hangeth ether off their owne or off their patrones pleasure So that if ether he forthincking him selfe like the shop better then the churche or the patrone will kepe the dore shut against suche insufficient men which the bishopp opened so wide or as sometime falleth out they can not agree of their market yt comet to passe that he is made a Minister which ether can not or will not not onely not fulfill but not so much as lay hand off that ministerie whereunto he was appointed Contrary vnto the rule off Saint Paul that leueth not this in choise but commaundeth precisely that if after triall they be found blameles they should exercise their ministerie To proue that there may be a rouing ministerie and some which may haue the walk of a whole prouince here is first alledged that the Apostels visited the places where there were seuerall Pastors Whereunto the answer is that that function off the Apostels was extraordinary as shall appeare and therfore at no hand to be drawne vnto our times Secondly is brought the example of Darius which beside 120. gouernoures set ouer the seuerall prouinces made three other to ouersee the◠Wherunto I answer that the Lord hath in assigning offices off the commen wealth left the libertie vnto men which he hath not doon in offices off the church The reason whereoff is manifest considering that they bothe are off greater sufficiency to ordeine offices for the commodities of this life then for those off the life to come and the errour in appointing of them is not so daungerous Eusebius sheweth howe Constantine inuented newe degrees off honour to pleasure those which were about him This not being forbidden in ciuill gouernemēt I thincke the A. dare not say it is lawfull to be doon in the gouernement off the church Hereby also is answered the surmise off kinges which being called sheapherds should by this meanes haue their dominions restreined vnto the gouernement off one cytie For the scripture hauing not determined whether there should be a Prince ouer euery citie as it hath that euery assembly should haue a pastor and the enmities and assaultes against the ciuill estate not being so great and daungerous as against the spirituall yt can by no meanes followe that the tying off the Minister vnto one church should enclose the Princes aucoritie in the circuit off one citie But it is to be obserued that both the D. reasons off the Apostels visiting and of Darius pollicie leade to Rome For yt followeth vppon them that one may haue ouersight of all the Ministers seing that both euery off the Apostels had autoritie to visite any church through the world and euen off those three vvhich were ouer the gouernours off 120. prouinces Daniel was the cheif And albeit we leaue no place ether to those rouing or owtgrowne ministeries yet the sheapherds and watchmē want not therefore their ouerseers considering that the Ecclesiasticall Senate doth not onely watch ouer the body off the church but euery one off them ouer an other and especially ouer the mynister off thes also as euery one in brotherly equalitie ought to admonishe so iontly they haue autoritie not onely to admonishe but by Ecclesiasticall censures to chastise the default off their minister Yf they also faile the Synodail assemblies haue interest as I haue before alledged And if the fault be suche as requireth cyuill punishement the Magistrate is the watchman appointed off God for that pourpose Where he saith that a similitude maketh a matter plaine but proueth not
Euangelists more to these then to those Nowe therefore forsomuch as yt ys manifest by the subscription of S. Pauls epistels that he writing did the office of an Apostle it is also cleare that both S. Mathew and Iohn being Apostels in writing the storie off the Gospell did the same and that the committing off the Gospell to writing was not the proper difference off any speciall office but according to thoccasions offered and mouing of the holy spirit off God commen to other functions off that time And as the Pastors off our time which both preach and write differ not in ministerie from those which preach onely and are oftentimes more excellent pastors then they so the wâ—sting off Saint Iohn and Mathew being Apostels off Saint Lucke and Marck Euangelistes might paraduenture make them more excellent Apostels or Euangelistes then those which wrote not but to chaunge their ministerie it could not Last off all off this answer followeth thabsurditie before noted that one man at the same time should be first and second before and behinde himselfe That an Euangelist at one time may be a bishop at an other maketh litle for the D. considering that we shewe that Timothe was euen then at Ephesus an Euangelist when he supposeth hym to haue bene bishop Howbeit it is vnlike that they which were ordeined Euangelistes and set in higher degree aboue the Pastor were without their fault thrust downe vnto the order of Bishops Men nowe a daies peraduenture may chuse to an office off charge one whom vppon better triall as not altogether sufficient they may cause to rise out off his chaire and sit in a lower place but in the Apostels ordinatioÌ„ especially of Timo. in whom they were directed by the voice off God it could by no meanes comme to passe This being vntrue in the Euangelists cast down to thoffice off bishops ys yet more vntollerable in the Apostels For they are by this meanes not let but cast headlong downe from the highest staier in the ministerie vnto the lowest almost yea by the D. saying which maketh the Pastor and the Doctor all one euen vnto the lowest But it can not be that they which were appointed by the voice off Christe immediatly to the Apostelship can ether off theyr owne or any other autoritie in yearth be put from that ministerie And therefore our men doo substantially dispute against the Papistes which would haue Peter bishop of Rome for that being ordeined an Apostel he could not betake him vnto thoffice off a bishop which the Answ with diuers other groundes would to mainteine his phantasies gladly shake The reason pretended out off Zuing. for that they abode in one place yf it be his is vnsufficient For to omit that it is easy to shew that Iames immediatly after he was ordeined to the Apostelship at thascension off our Sauiour exercised his charge in one place namely Ierusalem during his whole life whereby should follow that he was neuer any Apostell and to let passe that Eusebius citeth out off Clement that all the Apostels remained by the space off xij yeares in Ierusalem after our Sauiour Christes ascension whereby they all should be bishops during that time to say nothing also off Saint Paule which teaching at Rome and there looking to end his life eueÌ„ from thence writeth him self an Apostle aÌ„d not a bishop I say to let all this passe which notwithstaÌ„ding casteth downe this opinioÌ„ the Ans must know that thabiding long in one place doth not make a bishop differ froÌ„ an Apostel but the necessitie and bond to abide in one place by reason of his particular function Which when it nether can be shewed off any Apostel and is as hath bene shewed directly contrary to his function yt can not be that the abode in one place should proue a chaunge off the Apostelship into the function off a bishop Whereby is also answered the last reason off the D. that Tim. was bishop becawse he retourning to Ephesus died there For yf that were graunted what reason is there that whereas by the biscours off the scriptures before alledged it appeareth Timothe tawght in diuers churches he should be saide bishop off Ephesus becawse that was the last church he instructed why not off the first or second as well as off the last it is all one as yf a man being a straunger in diuers places should be saide to be Cytisen of that were he laieth his bones Wherein the D. againe approcheth vnto the absurditie off the Papistes which against that the Protestantes alledge that Peter is saide off writers as well bishop off Alexandria and Antioche as off Rome answer that the differeÌ„ce is great because he died at Rome Nether helpeth it him any thing which he alledgeth in an other place out of Cal. that Tychicus was sent to supplie Timothies absence For beside that the Apostle doth not goe so far and whatsoeuer can be saide in that point is coniecturall Calu. wordes do not necessarily enforce a deputie considering that absence may after a sort be supplied by a successour And if beside the first ordination off Timoth. vnto the function off an Euangelist which is vnlimited we will consider the manner off his embassage towardes the Ephes there can nothing les be gathered then this that Timothe was off Saint Paul instituted bishop off Ephesus whereby he should need a deputy For in that he sent him desyring him to tary for him there he declareth that he was not sent to remaine alwaies but for a tyme But if the Answ take exception that I haue found out this newe translation to make the place serue for my turne fyrst I trust that those which haue still in the greek will easly graunt that the word will bear this sense then it hath some confirmacion of that which Saint Paul writeth off diligence to be vsed in his caling there vntill his coÌ„ming Which word vntill although not alwaies yet for the most part maketh an eÌ„d of that whereunto it is applied Last off all it appeareth by Augustin which vseth this translation that yt was off auncient tyme receiued which testimonie off antiquitie cast in when the skoles are euen on both sides may cary it away Thus I leaue it to the Iudgement off the indifferent reader what truth it hath that the Answ affirmeth of Timothes being bishop at Ephesus I returne back to the generall treatise off the Euangelist Where I shew that if there vvere Euangelistes yet the bishops could not ordein theÌ„ being their inferiors he answereth that yt can not be proued that an Euangelist is of higher degree theÌ„ a bishop Yf O. Paules autoritie be not sufficient which setting the ministries off the word so precisely in order preferreth the Euangelist and Prophet vnto the Pastor or bishop nor the Iudgement off writers whereoff although some make an Euangelist next in honor vnto an Apostle some the Prophet yet both sortes prefer the
may better appeare for that in other places where S. Paul deuideth the whole mynistrie of the churche the ministrie off the word which he vttered here by the word off Prophecie he there attributeth not vnto Prophetes but vnto Bishops And when as the prophecie which the D. phansieth is a simple Ministrie off the church that Prophecie mencioned there being compounded muste needes be diuers Likewise that a Prophet to the Corin. is taken generally for any which instructeth with any word off exhortation yt is apparant both by that S. Paul attributeth prophecying to all which haue any gift off teaching and in that he doth so often oppose it to the fruteles speaking in a straunge toung amongest the assembly of the faithfull His testimonies out off writers remaine wherein amongest the auncient he hath onely a counterfeit sentence off Ambrose as I haue before declared which as yt ys full of confusion and disorder so yt maketh nothing for the D. for if Apostels be bishops and Euangelistes and Euangelistes be Deacons c. what maketh that to proue that there are beside the bishops and Deacons seuerall functions of Apostels and Euangelistes which is the question But how this fable is beaten down by all auncient antiquitie that may be a sufficient argument that the auncient writers in great consent speake off the whole ministrie off the church as deuided into thes three orders Bishops Elders and Deacons After that other ministries entred as doorkepers subdeacons c. yet there were none but such lightheaded spirits as I haue before spoken off that durst peint out any their mynysteries with the names off Apostels Euangelistes and Prophetes For the new writers that the D. if his forhead be not of yron may learn to blush I will towch their Iudgment onely which he hath alledged for him self Maister Caluin diuiding the mynistrie off the word into Apostels Prophetes Euangelistes Pastors and Doctors affirmeth that the tvvo last onely that is to say Pastors and Doctors are ordinary Bucer likewise deuiding them into perpetuall and for a tyme affyrmeth that these perteine vnto thestate off the former church and correcteth the D. Ambrose for appliyng them to his times by the true Ambroses sentence to the contrary in the fyrst of his Offic. Peter Martyr vsing the same diuision sheweth that the function off Apost and Prophets are not in vse and that the ministrye of Prophets is not onely expyred in respect of telling thinges to come but also for the manner off interpreting the scripture That he speaketh not the same off the Euangelist was for that the Apostle maketh no mention off him in that place Musculus deuideth the mynisteries off the vvord into those vvhich serued for the beginning off the gospell as Apost Euang. Proph. and those vvhich cōtinue for euer as Pastors Doctors Elders Bishops Bullinger saith the office off Apostleship Prophetship and Euangelistship were instituted off the Lord for a tyme and that thes many ages euen synce the foundacion off the kingedome off Christ both Apostels Euangelistes and Prophetes are ceassed into vvhose place are come bishops Pastors Doctors and Elders Last off all the confession off the churches hauing spoken off all mynisteries off the word mencioned off the Apostel concludeth that off all those now it is lawfull to esteeme mynistries off the churche Bishops Elders Pastors and Doctors Thes autors affirming that thes mynistries be extraordinary that they were for a time that other are come into their places the reader may see how the D. dealeth with him Let yt now be noted how he hath haled thes sentences taken from them Out off Maister Caluin he alledgeth that God hath stirred vp Apostels or Euangelistes synce the time of the primitiue churche and hath doone so at this tyme. Within a lyne after he addeth yet I call that extraordinary because in churchs vvell dressed it hath no place Of the like sort yt ys that he alledgeth owt off my booke whereas vpon Maister Caluin so of my wordes which affirme that God hath raised vp sometimes Euangelistes immediatly by his spirit vvithout any calling off men he woulde conclude that the office is ordinary and perpetuall then which bouldnes what can be greater Out of Bucer he alledgeth that there be now Euāgelists Where if his maner of speach that there are found Euangelists could not yet that which he addeth that God doth it by merueilous meanes ought to haue kept him from that allegacion except he thinck that a miraculous calling be perpetuall and ordinary Out of the Confess is brought that thes offices off Apostles c. are mynistries off the new Testament els should they haue great iniury seing they were both in tyme and dignitie first but who the D. set a part would euer conclude therof that they are perpetuall ministeries especially considering it addeth immediatly in plaine wordes that the Apostles are ceased and Pastors come into their places which could not be yf it had any such meaning as the D. phansieth Where it saith that there are yet Prophetes yf that were not which I alledged out of it towhing the shutting owt of those three ministeries from them which are now in vse yet the manner off speaking there are yet found the same with that of Bucer before alledged declareth that they ment therby an extraordinary calling For so we vse to speak of thinges rare and not in commen vse Last off all where yt is alledged owt off Bullinger that the wordes mentioned to the Ephe. are confounded yt doth not make for him but is answer both against the most places brought to proue Timothe a bishop and against those which he hath cited in the 3. and 4. Diuision off this chap. for if those ministries being separate one from an other their names notwithstanding be confounded yt muste follow that not euery one which is called an Apostle or bishop c. hath that function which is by some proprietie seuered from other and which the Apostle mēt to the Eph. for where one man being an Apostle is sometimes called a Prophet Bishop Doctor Elder and Deacon yf he will say that because he is called by thes titles he did therefore all those functions proper vnto those mynistries beside thabsurdities before shewed the vntruth doth manifestly appeare in the office off disposing off the churches money Whereoff the Apostles discharging them selues ceassed not therefore sometime to be called by the same name off Deacons And to vse those authorities which he hath brought Ierom calleth I say the Prophet both Euangelist and Apostel Yet I think the D. doth not esteme Ierom to haue had so litle iudgement as to think that he was ether off them in that signification they are taken of Saint Paul. likewise where he hath cited out off Caluin that Timothe was a Pastor when Caluin calleth him also an excellent Doctor and maketh that a seuerall function from the Pastor yt is cleare that he spake not off
as the worde off God remaineth if all men in the worlde woulde absolue them But let vs heare whether they be repriued by the iudgemente of these churches or whether they giue any pardon which gaue the condemnation There followeth that they allovve better off the harmeles symplicitie off some then off the exquisite learning off others ioyned vvithe pride And worthily For nether can pride agree withe manners off the minister off God and harmles symplicitie maie well agree with a competent learninge meete for that function In the ende they conclude that they reiecte not the good symplicitie of certein so they be not altogether vnskilful off God and his vvorde Firste this can make nothinge for excuse off our mynisters For when they are to learne their Catechisme and the principles off Christian Religion what knowledge is left vnto them off God and off his worde Then yt is like that by harmles symplicitie they meane some rare and singular holines wherby they goo as farre beyond the other in life as they come behinde them in learninge whiche all see to be otherwise in our ignorante ministers oftentimes the maisters off misrule to all the parishe Otherwise they knewe what Ierome saithe that in that S. Paule requireth that a bishop shoulde be vvise he barreth those vvhich vnder the name off symplicitie excuse the folie off mynisters Laste off all by that skill off God and off his worde they muste needes vnderstande suche giftes as are necessarie for a shepherd to feede his flocke whiche is habilitie to teache to exhorte to conuince the aduersarie and if he haue those althoughe he haue not the knowledge off tounges and artes in the name off God let him haue the chaire And suche I confesse our churche hathe had and hathe some but they are very rare and off thes I doubte not but the confession meaneth Nether can they be withowte manifeste iniurie thowghte to receiue those whiche they had before condemned for shall wee saie off them that with one mouthe yea with one breathe they blewe whout and kolde wheruppon I conclude that the condemnation beinge heere greater then the pardon and the wound wider then the plaister yow were verie neere driuen when yow were compelled to vse the testimonie off thes churches to couer the nakednes off the ignorante mynisters ▪ your notable slaunder off the Adm. I am contente shall as yow saie reste in the readers iudgmente That I haue gathered yowr argumente faithfully towchinge the learninge off Catechismes is shewed before There foloweth the 2. diuis the first being a blank where beside the causes by him assigned of want off able Ministers be to no pourpose considering that we shewe there can be no cause off instituting a reading ministery and be also owt off place considering that he shoulde haue opposed them to those which I alledged in that behalf that which onely was materiall that we be in cause off that fewnes is onely saied Where I alledged owt off S. Paul that yt is an expresse commaundement that a pastor should be able to teach and conuince gaynsayers and therfore to be broken vpon no occasion he answereth that S. Paul sheweth the qualities off a pastor but saieth not that we may not haue reading Pastors if there be none or not a sufficient nombre in whom all those qualities concur Then which what can be more bluntly saied For this being a generall rule he owght to haue shewed where the Lord gyueth leaue to take vnteaching mynisters contrary vnto the tenor off this commaundement which he is neuer able to doo For the scripture commaunding the pastors should be able to teach and conuince doth forthwith shutowt all other it being a generall rule that it both commaundeth the contrary off that it forbiddeth and forbiddeth the contrary off that yt commaundeth And there is no commaundement in the scripture which may not be eluded by the D. answer For thus yt may be sayed that we may haue images in churches to teach the ignorant for that although the lord forbid them yet he hath not saied that where there are none or not a sufficient numbre off able teachers we may not haue such supplies Those also which pressed with extreame hunger seeke remedy in stealing finde him their proctor For the lord hath not saied in so many wordes that one which is hungerbitten may not steale as much as will saue his life But when all commaundementes be generall in the scripture albeit they haue not alwaies the vniuersall note off All or None onles there be some exception declared this off the sufficiency off the pastor being not onely vniuersall but vniuersally propounded is better armed against all thes fond cauils For our sauiour declaring that euery one instructed as a scribe vnto the kingdome off God owght to be prouided aforehand with store off doctrine and iudgement to apply yt according to the present occasion doth gyue manifestly to vnderstand that no one may be receiued into the order off pastors which is not able to teach his flocke And the D. may as well say that in default of sober chast and quiet pastors they may chuse dronckards whoremongers swashbucklers as that in default off a teaching pastor they may take vnteaching Yea rather may he say the one then the other cōsidering that sobriety chastitie and quietnes are commen with him to all Christians but abilitie to teach and confute are his proper duties Therfore although thes be both vntollerable yet the church receiueth les harme by pastors which infected with 〈◊〉 doo teach then by them which free from thes are vtterly vnable to teach For the good life off the pastor withowt doctrine wherby they may be both tawght to put their trust in god and see the good workes they should follow is as a faire coulor withowt light to shewe yt by vtterly vnprofitable where the word truly preached shineth oftentimes clearer in the heartes then the clowde of the pastors disordered life cā stay the fruict of And albeit all commaundementes off God are such as may not for any cause be broken yet this S. Paul gyueth off the Pastor hath a speciall fense cast abowt yt wherby it might be kept in greater safety For the spirit of God foreseing this shamefull prophanation off the ministery together with the present daunger vnto the church vseth a preface to this description of the pastors office vsed rarely and but in matters of greatest stablenes saying yt is a certein doctrine As if he should say that which foloweth is an vnuariable and vnchangeable rule which can by no autoritie of men for any cause not onely be brokē but not so much as bowed or once vvrinched a side His reason that Paul was glad those preached which swarued frō that rule beside that I haue shewed it ridiculous is here owt of place cōsidering that thes readers which would haue rēt his heart in peeces being ordeined with breach off the rule off
God could not cheare him vp againe by preaching wherunto they are as fit as an oxe to flie Witnes the D. him selfe which addeth that our ignorant ministers may by study so profit in knowledge that they may be able priuately to exhort Where yt is merueilons to see how he fometh owt their shame whom he hath taken to his defense Yf he had saied that in time with study they might be able to preach yet forsomuche as while that grasse groweth the people perish his answer had bene vntollerable Now gyuing no further hope then that in time they will be able priuately to admonish which euery Christian owght to doo he hath gyuen sentence off them that they will neuer be able to doo the worcke off Pastors wheroff they beare the name that is that they will neuer be but idoles What they doo by reading is after to be seen The place of Osea which resecteth from the ministery those that haue not knâ—â—â—â—â—ge off the lawe becawse it failed a litle in the quotation he hath let quietly goe by Where he gyueth me the lie for that I ascribe vnto him this argument there must be reading in the church therfore ministers that can doo nothing but reade his wordes be thes I see not how yow can condemne reading ministers seing reading is necessary in the church let the reader iudge what a hard forehead he hath Where I concluded theruppon that euery one vvhich coulde breake bread distribute the cup c. should be a meet minister all see that it followeth vpon the former reason And this which the D. counteth a iest he is not able to answer in his greatest earnest His answer to the place off S. Iames is friuolous For his reason why the place off â— Luke commaunding the 12. disciples to preach can not be applied vnto our Ministers is for that other thinges ioyned with yt were temporall And this is his reason before that the example off the Apostels elections is to be followed wholy or not at all Therfore the place off S. Iames did fully confute his answer considering that the anointing of the sick coupled with praier by the elders off the church being temporall thother notwithstanding is perpetuall And this shift that that place was spoken off all ministers and thother off S Luke off the 12. onely will not couer his shame For what wil he say vnto the rules gyuen as the same tyme that they should be symple in their ministery as doues vvise as serpentes take heed off men are they not spoken to the ministers now becawse they were spoken then to the 12. onely What vnto that our Sauiour Christ commaunded to goe into all the world teaching and baptizing in the name off the Father Sonne and Holy Ghost which place shaketh hym owt of both his ragges for that was spoken to the eleuen Apostels onely and the coÌ„maundement off going into all the world was temporall Yet I thincke he dare not deny but the commaundement off baptizing in the name off Father Sonne and holy Ghost is perpetuall and belonging vnto all Pastors Wheruppon followeth that the place off S. Luke standeth still to whip owt vnpreaching Pastors In the pag. 483. this is handled againe Where I alledge that they be vnchangeable lavves 〈◊〉 God that he should not be minister off the church vvhich can not teach nor Minister Sacramentes vvhich can not preach the D. leauing the first which was the very cause shppeth to the second which is handled in an other Tract as that wherin his prouision was better Howbeit because I would not the D. cause should leese her aduantage by his ouersight I confesse that Chrysostomes testimonie may seeme to perteine to the cause in hand forasmuch as he maketh a kinde off preisthood not able to teach To whom with this exception that I will not be pressed with his autoritie further then he bringeth reason off the word off God I answer that as the word preisthood is often times in ecclesiasticall writers taken for the pastor and cheif minister off the church off which our present question is so sometime yt is taken for the elders ioined as helpers in gouernement vnto the pastor and whiche had not as shall appeare to doo doythe the preaching off the word and administration off the Sacramentes As when yt is saied that the Bishop chosen by Gods ordinance and the Elders ioyned vvith hym in the priestly honour According vnto which sense Chrysostomes saying maketh nothing to this question For we deny not but that he may be an elder and coÌ„sequently as they terme him a preist assistant to the pastor which is not able to preach but that he may be the pastor we vtterly deny So remaineth onely against vs in Chrysost testimonie that he may baptize that can not preach which with the rest perteining to that head shal god willing be in their proper place answered As for the 5. 1. Tim. towching the Elders which rule well in the treatise off the Presbytery yt shall appeare that it is not vnderstanded off these caterpillers where he requireth warrant off the word of God for that I confesse the church may appoint for a reader onely some graue man he confessing yt lawfull as well as I for answer to his request I refer him to that disputation where I haue proued that it is not lawfull to place any thing in the church not iustified by the word That the cavvse off this fevvnes off able ministers is partly the thrusting ovvt off those vvhich are fyt to teach partly that others fyt are not sought after it is manifest Whether they owght to be sought after and not to offer them selues I leaue to be estemed off that which is written in this point in the booke intituled off the discipline c. Whether they be off right thrust owt I leaue to be iudged off the discours off these controuersies whether they which are not yet entred haue iust cawse to forbeare I leaue to be considered off the disputation before and off that of the Archebishop Archedeacons Commissaries c. which followeth For if it fall owt that the calling be vnlawfull wherby the entrance should be made and the autoritie of the church tirantes such that being entred one can not walke in the way off his ministery prescribed off the lord then it must followe that although those that are entred hauing testimony off their conscience that they serue the lorde and keping themselues from the pollutions may poursue their course yet thes can not withowt shipwracke off conscience I speake off ordinary callinges euen in the very port or euer they launche forth commit them selues to this viage Where he saith there want no prouokinges to drawe them to the mynistery euen that is an other cawse off this scarcety for the church-liuinges so vnequally deuided that some fewe being druncken the moste hunger discourage from that study For the parent which followeth the sente off
them His proofes comming a mile after are first that a mans meaning is commenly better expressed by writing then by word Which beside that it is confuted by commensense all men knowing that there is more certeine vnderstanding by word off mouth thē by lettres which if any doubt arise in any word can say nothing to the resoluing off it as yt is alledged it can not tend but to vtter subuersion off the lordes order and to proue that commenly and for the moste part it is better to haue reading then preaching The other is that writing remaineth as if the question were wether canonicall writing off the scriptures were better then preaching and not whether there be more fruict in bare reading that which is written then preaching vppon yt In this chap. which supposeth reading preaching beside straunge asseuerations and begging of that in controuersie there is nothing sauing that as absurdities are fruictfull this beggetteth other for pressed he shameth not to say that a child off 4. yeare olde is a preacher off the gospell And why not also a popeniay tawght to pronounce some sentences off scripture for the D. reason because preaching 10 Rom. 14 is all publishing off the gospell by externall voice serueth for one as for the other And beside that it is friuolous that off that God speaketh to vs by reading he would conclude that he preacheth to vs as though all speaking were preaching yt is absurd that he saith the scriptures are not preached in respect off him that readeth but in respect of the spirit of God worcking in the hearers For if reading were preaching yt should be preaching although it wrowght to condēnation wheras by the D. all which hearing the word preached profit not are not preached vnto Which as it is a grosse error so it is a shamefull derogation to the ministery off the word worcking mightely not onely to the saluation off the elect but also throwgh their fault to destruction off the reprobate To the places prouing that it is necessarily required in a minister that he should not onely be sufficiently learned but haue also the gift off vtterance he answereth not Towching that the priestes lippes should kepe knowledge and not his papers he answereth that he shall haue it readier in his lippes if he haue yt in his papers which is not to pourpose seing we spake off those which haue yt onely in papers Then he hath a childish cauill that if he reade he must vse his lippes as if the Prophet contented him self if the priestes were able to reade onely and did not note therby the aptnes to teach as by vncircumcised lippes is noted heauines or vnreadines off speache That a Preacher able for vtterance and learning to preach may reade a sermon if he meane priuately is not in question if publikely yt belongeth to the question off Homilies His case off a man pronouncing an other mans sermon withowt booke beside the fondnes is from the cawse That the reading of Ieremies and Baruchs bookes was preaching becawse the bookes were sermons ys to dreame and not to dispute The 15. 16. verses Rom. 15. make nothing to proue reading preaching but make rather against him in that the Apostle shewing that his writing to them was grownded off Gods calling sowght a more generall word off worcking for the gospell which agreeth to any action the minister doth by reason off his ministery ether in ministring the Sacramentes or otherwise The difference Sainct Paul putteth between his preaching is apparant althowgh the D. hath lost his sight That S. Paul ment he could not personally preach vnto them is his addition corrupting the minde off the Apostle For where shewing that he had great desire to be personally with them form spirit he was not absent he addeth for a cawse that he might preach the D. by this answer drowneth the effect in the cause ād so maketh the Apostle assigne cawses which cawse nothing nor haue any thing to be referred vnto Where I shewe that S. Paul vvriting is no more preaching then his hand or penne he vvrote vvith be his toung lightes or other instrumentes he spake vvith he answereth not for that as he saith it is a iest Where if his cause could speake it woulde complaine that he maketh no more account of it then to esteme her head stroked when it is cracked a sonder for the reason is of the efficient cause seing they can not be the same which can not be made by the same instrumentes To mainteine his ridiculous demaunde was not reading off Deut. preaching he should haue shewed that the reading off yt is rather preaching then reading off Exodus which he doth not Howbeit he concludeth that the reading theroff was preaching becawse the Lord commaunded that the priestes should reade yt that the people might learne to feare God which is as ridiculous For so peinting and grauing off the scriptures is preaching and peinters and grauers which sometimes knowe neuer a lettre off the booke shall be come preachers Considering that the Lord cōmaunded that the lawe should be grauen in the entrance of their land and writtē vpō their cytie gates and howses to this end that the people might learne to feare God c. After he asketh why Iosia should cawse the lawe to be redd if reading had not bene off at great force to perswade as preaching which phrensie belonging to another question is answered before Where he concludeth that for that reading is as effectuall as preaching therfore it is preaching beside the falsehood off the antecedent the conclusion is too bad for if the raine be as effectuall to cawse the fruictes grow as the sonne and meat as effectuall to perserue the life as drincke it followeth not therfore that the raine is the sonne or meat drincke Where vppon Nehem. 8. he would proue reading preaching there is not a word wheron it may be gathered but contrariwise they are manifestly distinguished in that chap. For beside reading there mentioned he setteth forth preaching by all these wordes that the Leuites cavvsed the people to vnderstand the lavv gaue the sense off the lavv cavvsed them to vnderstand the reading And where pag. 91. he saith that the wordes translated off some they gaue the sense signify nothing les thē that there was any exposition ioined with reading bearing him self vppon learners interpreters seing he seeth no further into this then with other mennes eies why should not he haue followed the iudgement off the Geneua translation which he pincheth they being learned men and moe in nombre then as I thincke he can alledge Which I say not to iustify that translation throwghowt or to shut vp the way gainst a better but because it seemeth an vnworthy thing to refuse their iudgement vpon bare autoritie I haue none off his learned men to looke their iudgementes howbeit for that I finde one off the Hebrues so expounding the wordes
absurdities laied vppon this foundacion as that the promesse off the assistance off gods spirit is as well gyuen to writers of homilies and their hearers as to studiers for sermons and those which heare them as if he had saied the Lord will giue testimonie to his word as wel by the meanes which mē haue deuised as that him self hath ordeined Likewise that sermons should be kept owt off the church as well as homilies if they should be shut owt because they are mennes interpretation considering that the preacher albeit he be a man yet in respect off his publicke ministery instituted and commaund of the Lord is as the angell off God yea as Christ him self which can not be saied off homily readers nor makers especially in that respect To that I alledge off the coustome off the Churches before our Sauiour Christes comming and after towching homilies not vsed in the church and that in such time vvhen there vvas greatest vse off them he answereth that the argument is of autoritie negatiuely where I leaue to the iudgement off the reader what likelihood there is that there were any homilies red in the church whē both holy and ecclesiasticall writers making mētiō of the forme of seruice of God in the church to the least and smallest ceremonies there is none diuers 100. yeares that ones vouchesafeth to mention homilies reading which the D. matcheth with preaching the highest seruice off God in his church Where he saith that I condemne thargument drawen off mennes autoritie yt is vntrue I said it constreineth not And I spake of it where yt is question off searching the truth off a matter wherin many easely deceiued none knoweth the full off it and not off reporting thinges doone in presence off him that writeth wherof he making profession to write can not withowt grosse ouersight passe by where he saith yt is an euill argument to conclude off a thing not doon that it shovld not be doon if the churches gouerned by the Prophetes and Apostles did it not it being put as a peece off the seruice off God and as the D. saith necessary ether they faulted in not vsing this meanes which is absurd or the D. which defendeth the vse off it He saith I can not but acknowledge one good sermon red to edify more then the Chalde paraphrastes so destitute off meanes to refute the reason I set downe why a short paraphrasis was meeter then homilies namely for that they approched nerer vnto the reading off the scripture vvhich is best he setteth his cause at my courtesie But if I graūt that he asketh he is nothing nerer onles he can proue that a learned homily is fitter then a learned paraphrase made now in this great light which the Chalde paraphrastes could not haue when they wrote So that although they expounding darckly according to the time they wrote in be not so fit now to reade as an homily yet yt standeth still that a pharaphrast is fitter to be red then an homily Where he saith I know that the Iewes haue thes paraphrastes yet red I shewed both by scripture ād otherwise that they had thē not openly red when there was greatest neede off them Yf they had them after when diuers corruptions were entred or now when they are the synagogue off Satan tha◠maketh rather for me They which tould hym that Ionathan was 42. yeares before our Sauiour Christ if they ment therby to confute that I set downe should haue gyuen him something to answer the autoritie I alledged Although he might be well 42. yearers before our Sauiour Christ and then too considering he was schoole fellow to Symeon off whom S. Luke maketh mention The testimonies off Denis and Clements Epistles red in the church to proue it vntrue which I affirmed off the churches practise towching reading off the scriptures alone after the Apostles tmes are in that respect idle considering that I onely shewed that that coustome continued after their tymes which were the best and purest Nether can the breaking off this order by some churches vppon some occasion let why it may not truly be saied both the coustome and practise Yf the Centuries coniecture were receiued that Denis epistles were red as Clementes yet that proueth not that they were red generally considering that Clements was red but in certeine churches But what if it be saied that they were red in those churches for that they were vntruly thowght of the Canon of the scripture Wherto serueth not onely that Denises were called Catholike but Clements weighty and wonderfull Likewise that Euseb esteeming Clement the canonicall translatour off the epist. to the Hebrues yt is not vnlike but he had that epistle in like estimation Last off all for that as he lightly reiected the true canonicall bookes off Saint Iames Iude and second off Saint Peter so he lightly held those for canonicall which were not yf I answer thus my coniecture hath better reason then yow yet shew and then the reading off these epistles helpeth yow not yow haue onely Soters which help nothing more being red onely at Corinth Howbeit it shall be sufficient answer that as other corruptions crept in then so the seed of this began to be sowen and that the credit which yowr cawse gaineth in that diuerse churches red them yt leeseth in that diuerse others receiued them not Likewise it maketh against him that the councell giueth no place vnto homilies but in extreme cases off sicknes c. off the minister where he maketh them the peoples ordinary food The councell as it were in a great drowght or snow when all is couered will haue the sheep holpen with this hard meat the D. will haue it their commen allowance Beside that it is the obiectiō which I myself im̄ediatly after preuented my answer wherunto the D. towcheth not but onely affirmeth it a good decree and no cawse off corruption which is grosse beggery considering that I shew how vppon occasion theroff in time came in the popish Legend and Gregories homilies which iustled owt the holy Bible Where I shewed that Bucers wordes secme counterfeit wherby he is browght exhorting to encrease the nomber off homilies when the Lord should blesse the realme with learned preachers forasmuch as there were then learned preachers able to make homilies which should haue exceded the volume of the Bible he answereth that there is no cause to suspect them but the reason he can not answer After he cyteth M Ridly but fondly for if the autority off all those which established that order be not able to make yt good much lesse his alone and being a party in this cawse he owght not albeit a singular mā be witnes Where I alledged the councell councell of Laodicea ordeining that nothing should be red in the church but the canonicall scripture he answereth the councell ment nothing vnder the name of holy scriptures which is an open and shamefull corruption for
signification should be followed for part of the writers of canonicall bookes as of Iosue Iudges Sam. Chron. Kinges c. are vnknowen To that wherin the booke is charged for lifting vp of diuers cha of the Apocrypha to be red as extra ordinary lessons vppon feast daies vvherin there are greatest assemblies some chap. off canonicall scripture being not red at all he answereth not a word but leaueth it to speake for it self Seing then the scripture precisely forbiddeth to ordeine a pastor not fit to teach and bare reading off homilies is conuenient off holy scriptures insufficient to saue the people by which are the cruches wherewith the D. would vphould this lame ministery it followeth together with the shamefull absurdities off reading to be preaching to be as good yea better then preaching that vnpreaching pastors as the pestilence off the church owght to be throwen owt Now I retourne backe to the 7. Tract off Ministers apparell wherunto albeit I was determined as may appeare to reply yet considering after that this cawse hath bene so fully debated both by bookes in print and other treatises written in the handes of as many as desire after them considering also that the D. second answer beside false accusations as that men haue learned off me and my parteners to esteme the surplis c. corrupt in them selues c. open facing downe off thinges in knowledge off all men as that none are hindred one iot from comming to the gospell by prescript apparell bare affirmacions withowt proofe as that no minister making conscience off wearing thapparell will rather weare it moued by example off other then by the law which commaundeth it almost continuall reasoning not to the matter which he cowardly dissembleth as that Prophetes which were extraordinary ministers had an extraordinary apparell which is not denied which traine taken at the beginning is followed to the end triumphes in his owne shame â—â— appeareth in the place off Salomons Ecclesiastes I say beside thes considering that he hath almost nothing at all not before answered and that he hath not fetched from any treasury off good learning but as taken vp by the highe way sideâ— and considering that we haue this question with very few him the Papistes or those which haue already cast an eye vnto the papistes onely excepted with whom to trauaill in this point before their other gale be purged were to heale the skinne and leaue the bones still broken all thes things considered with that that it may better appeare we take not these thinges for the greatest matter we coÌ„plaine of I thowght good to tread this treatise vnder my foot and to saue some good howres which might be lost in vnripping this beggery That I saie off hauing this question with very few him c. excepted I meane in that where he saith the surplis square cap and tippet be most conuenient decent and comely others in whom there is any loue off the truth confesse it a weed vnmeet for a minister of the gospell which not able to root owt they are for certeine causes content to beare with And althowgh destitute off answer he plie his matter with accusatioÌ„s of disobedieÌ„ce and conteÌ„pt of magistrate yet I doubt not but with all indifferent our open and simple profession off the necessitie off higher powers and off the honour and humble submission to Her Maiestie and all magistrates vnderneth her ether in doing thinges commaunded or patiently suffring for that which we can not with good conscieÌ„ce doo shall be sufficient defense especially seing that euen in this matter off apparell it is confessed that obedience owght to be giuen where the commaundement is with iniury to the ministery As for the D. ether error or flattery that in thinges indifferent commaunded by the Magistrate we owght not to haue such regard to the offense off the weake but that if all should be offended that is to say perish and make shipwracke off conscience for that is the offense which S. Paul and we after him speake off yet we owght to doo that which is commaunded the Magistrate being therby lifted aboue the Lord we vtterly condemne Considering it being a flat commaundement off the holy gost that we absteine from thinges in their owne nature indifferent if the weake brother should be offended no autoritie ether off church or commen wealth can make yt voide And where the magistrates commaunding and owr obedience vnto him owght to be squared owt first by the loue off God then off men our brethren especially this new carpenter as one that frameth his squire according to his tymber and not his timber according to the squire will make our obedience to the cyuill Magistrate the rule off the loue off God and our brethren So that in steed that he should teach that we may obey no further vnto the magistrate then the same wil agree with the glory off God and saluation off our brethren he teacheth that in thinges off their owne nature indifferent we must haue no further regard nether to saluacion off our bethren nor to the glory off God which in neglect of their saluacion is troden vnder food then will agree with doing that the magistrate commaundeth But I am gone further then I thowght seing there caÌ„ hardly be any so symple which perceiueth not easely both the fondnes and absurdity off his answers in this question The replie to the D. 8. Tract off Archbishopes and Bishopes Vnto the firste and seconde diuision being beside the question I answer nothing Before I come to the thirde forsomuche as the place off the Euangelistes which is before is generall and striketh at all the loftie and swelling titles off the ministrie I will set it here downe in the foreward off the reasons browghte againste the names off Archbishopes c. as that which speaking againste all the smoky names muste nedes comprehende thes In the D. answer therfore wherby he goeth aboute to proue that thes wordes gratious or bountifull Lordes make nothing againste the great names and magnifical titles off the ministers this is the firste that Saint Marke and Muthewe haue no wordes bearing any suche sense Wherunto I answer that as yt is a generall rule almoste throwghowte the scripture that repetitions are not withowt some vsury and increase so in the writinges of the EuaÌ„gelistes yt is to be obserued almost euery where And therfore yt owghte not to haue bene strange if other Euangelistes speaking off the autoritie onely S. Luke added also touching the titles Secondly he answereth this clawse yt shall not be so vvith yovv is not referred vnto those wordes are called bountifull and benefyciall but vnto ambition and tyraÌ„nical dominioÌ„ onely wherunto I answer firste that forsomuch as the things there affirmed of the Ministers and the worde off gracious Lordes is as well affirmed off kinges as the worde off bearinge dominion therfore those wordes yt shall not be so
vvith yovv are as well referred vnto the wordes gracious lordes as vnto the word off domynion Secondly yowr answer is contrarie to the authoritie yow haue alledged owte off Caluin For if yt be true that thes wordes bountifull benefactors be all one with the wordes off Mathewe kinges exercise autoritie ouer them and yowr selfe graunte that thes wordes yt shall not be so vvith yovv are referred vnto the dominion and exercise off autoritie yt followeth that they muste needes be verified also off bountifull benefactors Thirdly he answereth that this word bountifull is off no such imperiousnes but it mighte well agree to the disciples and consequently to ministers Wherunto I answer that it is no worde off empire but annexed vnto yt and therfore that which can not agree to the ministers whom God hath shut from any suche domynion And that it is a worde off greate porte and statelines appeareth forsomuche as not onely the Egyptian kinges were so called but as the D. him selfe confesseth the Ebrewes did so call their princes Now he muste vnderstande that that Hebrew worde which he hath set downe bountifull was nether gyuen vnto the Hebrewe princes by flatterie off their subiectes nor wronge from the subiectes by tyrannous ambition off their princes but was a title gyuen vnto them by the holy ghoste Therfore it is apparante that S. Luke in those wordes ether respecting the coustome off the prophane kings or of the good princes of the Iewes in 〈◊〉 paste mente that style was proper to the cyuill magistrate and to highe for the lowe countenance off a minister Againe this title off munificence and bountifullnes as Aristotle sheweth is much more then liberall and is not said but of those which besides a great readines of mynde to gyue haue also wherwith to bestowe great gyftes and that to many So that yt is no meruaile althowghe this title be giuen off S. Luke vnto princes as they which for the moste parte are onely hable to vse the bountie answerable vnto that title Againe where he saith that thes wordes off S. Luke are to be expounded by S. Mathewe and Marke which haue for bountifull they that are greate yt is manifeste by his owne confession that this title off bountifull importeth some great pompe and owtwarde statelines And therby foloweth that S. Mathewe and Luke vsing thes three wordes princes great kinges to note one thing yt muste needes be that this worde bountifull beinge as yow saie all one with great is forthwith all one with the other two wordes princes and kinges Laste off all Caluin gyuing a reason off the signification off this worde a litle after the wordes yow haue alledged saith that theruppon yt commeth that men paye tributes and impostes that princes maie haue to mainteine the porte and magnifycence off their estate Wherby yow mighte vnderstande that this word doth drawe withall a more glyttering and glorius estate then can agrree to the simplycitie off the ministrie off the gospell Where also againste me makinge two members of the sentence off our S. Christe one towchinge the autoritie and domyniō of the cyuill magistrate thother towching his title ād name the D. owte of Caluins wordes woulde proue that they be all onethe muste vnderstand that Calu. wordes are not full enowghe to carie that meaning For when he saithe that S. Luke calleth kinges bountifull in the same sense that S. Mathevve saithe they exercise autoritie his purpose is to shewe that they perteine and are referred both to the description off his estate and to put the differēce betweene hym and the minister of the word For otherwise they cā not be saide to he all one seinge one of thē is verified off the other and Luke beside this title of bountifull lordes maketh mention off exercisyng autoritie and Domynion ouer them Therfore if this be an absurde saying they which exercise autoritie ouer them exercise autoritie ouer them yt is clear that Caluins meaning is not to confound one of those with an other and if yt shoulde yet the Euangelistes vvordes vvill not suffer yt Where further he saith that the name off graciouse Lorde beinge a name off svperioritie and reuerence may therfore be gyuen to ecclesiastical persons as well as vnto ciuill I can see no corde off reason which bindeth thes together For the name of Kinge Prince Duke c. names off superioritie and reuerence by his reason maie be gyuē to ecclesiasticall persons which him selfe denieth Therfore the D. muste seeke another distinction then this Nay let him deuide tytles off dignitie when he will making as he doth thes two off superioritie and reuerence one member whatsoeuer he maketh the other yt will fall within their compas Furthermore the names off Erles and Dukes are no more proper to cyuill magistrates in our countrie then the name off gracious lorde For as the one is a note off one lyfted vp into highe degree so thother and as the name off a lorde vvith vs is not the name off an office but off honor onelie so be the names off Dukes and Erles For men being borne dukes and Erles are not therfore borne magistrates which notwithstanding they shoulde be if the names off Dukes and Erles were proper to the ciuill magistrate In the name off Archbishop the firste parte which signifieth a prince is proper to the ciuill magistrate and can not withowt robberie be translated from him vnto Ecclesiasticall persons Which is to be shewed firste in that our Sauiour Christe and the Apostles when soeuer they speake off the superioritie off the ministers off the newe Testamente doo so carefully auoide that worde with all those which fall from yt or are deriued of yt Then in that Aristor saith the vvorde domynion doth signifie an imperious rule as Beza obserueth where he sheweth that it can not agree to the ministers of the gospell Thirdly euē by the D. owne confession in this place For the greke worde signifinge a prince which name he confesseth proper vnto the ciuill magistrate yt muste folowe that the name off Archbishop which is asmuche as prince off bishopes breaketh vpon the possession off the magistrate wherupon foloweth that that name is not onelie iniurious and tyrannicall in respecte off the order off ministers while it chalengeth princedome ouer them but presumptuous againste the magistrate whyleste yt pulleth that name vnto yt which is proper to him So that if it were lawfull for him to exercise any superioritie ouer his felowe mynisters yet yt owghte to be by an other title My maior which yow saie is ouerthrowne hath not so muche as felte any attempte for the ouerthowe therof were to proue that the names proper to the cyuill magistrate belong vnto one minister ouer another which is not once endeuored The minor which is that a cyuil magistrate is seuered from the ecclesiasticall persons by lofty titles hath nothing againste yt but this that gracious lorde is commen to both ciuill
cōmen wealthes and in the superiority which he hath ouer kinges and iudges he hath no superior but immediate autoritie vvith his father Therfore the mouldinge vpp off the two estates and gouernementes together is to lay the foundations off many errors Last of all admitting this distinctiō how cometh yt to passe that this poincte of his that there are manie archbishops in the owtward regiment off the church being that which is denied is lefte vvithowt any assistance off reason out off the scripture Here remaineth onely to proue the title Head off the church to belonge onely to our Sauiour Christe I muste therfore desyre the reader to tourne vnto the 6. diuis pag. 181. where the D. confesseth as much as I that Christe is onely the head of the church If Christe be onely head then that I set downe that the cyuill magistrate is head of the cōmonwealthe and not of the church standeth But if the magistrate be head off the church then Christe is not onelie Howbeit hauing for feare off the owtcry off all made a litle curtesie vnto the truthe he forth with lifteth vp his heele againste it and will haue the ciuill magistrate head also off the church wherupon muste followe infynite absurdities firste the doctrine off the Apostle is by this means cleane ouerthrowē which sheweth that this tytle Head of the church was gyuen to our Sau. Christe to lifte him aboue all powres rules and domyons ether in heauen or earth Where if this title belonge also vnto the cyuill magistrate then yt ys manifeste that there is a powre in earth vvherunto our Sauiour Christe is not in this pointe superior And by the same reason that he maie gyue the cyuill magistrate this title he maye gyue him also that he ys the fyrste begotten of all creatures the fyrste begotten off the dead yea the redemer of his people which he gouerneth For these all are a like gyuen vnto hym as dignities wherby he ys lyfted vp aboue all creatures And beside that the whole argumente off the Apostle in both places lead to shewe that this tytle Head off the church can not be saide of any creature yt ys confirmed by the demonstratiue article wherwith the Hebrewes esyecially whom Saint Paul folowed vse to tie that vvhich is verified off one vnto hym selfe alone For he saith he is the head as if he should saie he and none other is the heade of the church Againe if the church be the bodie of Christe ād of the cyuill magistrate yt shall haue two heades which being monsterous is to the great dishonor off Christe and his church So also shoulde come to passe that the church hauing the magistrate for head is accōplished and made a perfecte man without Christe so that the knittinge of our Sauiour Christe should not be an accomplishmente off that which lacked but an addition off that which is to much And if the churche be planted in a popular estate then forsomuch as all gouerne in commen and all haue autoritie all shall be head there and no body at all vvhich is another monster Now yf vve consider the cawses why our Sauiour Christe ys called the head of his church which are that as the head is the higheste parte in a man aboue which ther is none allwaies ioyned with the body so he ys the cheifest and highest in his churche inseperably knitte with yt and that as the head gyueth sense and mouing vnto all the bodye so he quickneth and to gether with vnderstanding of heauenly thinges gyueth strenght to walke therin I say when thes be the causes yt ys manifeste thes thinges nor no one off them ether agreing or hauing any possibilitie to agree with any creature in heauen or earth ether towards the whole church or towardes any partycular assembly that the name off the Head of the church can not be without great violence gyuen vnto any symple creature And yff yt be saied that the cyuill magistrate is a subordinate and mynisteriall head off the church as the magistrate beinge head off the commen wealthe hath other which maye be called vnder heades beneath hym he muste vnderstand that those heades are appoincted becawse the cheife magistrate can not be presente with the whole body off his people nor in his owne person performe the office of a head vnto them all But forasmuche as Christe is neuer seuered from his body nor from any parte off yt and is able and doth performe that wherfore he is called head vnto all his churche yt owghte not to seme strange that there may be a subordinate head in the commen wealth where there can be none in the church And as yt hath certaine grounde in the scripture that this tytle of head of the church is to highe to be gyuen vnto any man so hath yt bene confirmed from time to tyme by writers both olde and newe which haue had the honor off Christe in any conuenient estimation Let vs therfore see vvhether this ialousie ouer the title of head of the church not onely in respecte off the whole but in respecte also off a particular congregation haue their approbation Cyprian saith there is but one head off the church The bishop off Salsburie affirmeth the same Augustine proueth that the minister which baptiseth can not be the head off him which is baptized because Christe is the head off the vvhole church And in another place that Paule coulde not be head of the churches which he planted becawse Christe is head off the vvhole body which reason should be nothing worthe if ether Saint Paule or any other minister mighte be a ministery all head off the church vnder Christe And if the name of ministeriall head off the churches which Paule planted can not be gyuen vnto him which was a gouernour nexte and immediatly vnder Christe in that same kinde off gouernment in the which our Sauiour Christe is head that is to say spirituall no not then when there was no Christian magistrate to make chalenge vnto that title and to bring yt into dowbte whether yt belonged vnto S. Paule or to him yt can not be that the magistrate may take vnto him that title whose gouernmente doth not approche so nere vnto our Sauiour Christes as he is head off the church And as they haue taken awaye this tytle from the ministers ouer their flockes so haue they from Emperours and princes in regard off their subiectes Ambrose saith yt ys the greatest honor the Emperour can haue to be called sonne off the church and in the same Epistle a good Emperour is vvithin not aboue the chutch Caluin teacheth that there is but one onely head of the church vvhich is Christe that the name doth onely agree to him that in that name he can haue no substitute vpon earth Where yf yt be saide that he mente that off the Pope ouer all churches althowgh the disputation be directed againste the Pope yet his reasons are
generall and proue that no man maie vsurpe that tytle But to cleare that matter in an other place he sheweth that it is to muche to attribute vnto a Kinge the name of the head of the church and that they are blasphemous that gyue hym yt Nowe where he saith here and repeteth p 301. that in respecte off the supreme autoritie which god hath gyuen vnto the magistrate he may be called the head off the church the supreme authoritie ouer the church being onely gyuen vnto Christe yt muste folow that this name onely belongeth to him Where partly in this diuis but more fully pag 301. he saith althowgh in respecte of life and nutriment gyuen and spirituall blessinges powred into the body off the church our Sauiour Christe is onely head yet towching the externall societie and owtward gouernement the magistrate also may be head off the church yt is first to be noted from whom this prouision was browghte hym For as Harding borowed yt off Pighius so the D. pourueiers had it from Harding or frō both For to ouerthrowe this doctrine that Christe alone is head of his church this distinction is browghte that according to the inward influence off grace Christe onely is head but according to the owtward gouernement the being of head is commen with him to others For answer wherunto I referre my self in parte to that I haue written before off the absurde distinction betwene the gouernement off the churche by the mynisterie off men instituted off our Sau. Christ and his spirituall gouernmente For that if there be no head but Christe in respecte of the spiritual gouernemente there is no head but he in respecte of the worde sacramentes and discipline administred by those whom he hath appoincted forasmuch as that is also his spirituall gouernmente And euen in the owtward societie and assemblies off the church where one or two are gathered in his name ether for hearing off the word or for praier or any other church exercise our Sauiour Christe being in the myddeste off them as mediatour muste needes be there as head and if he be there not idle but doinge the office off the head fully yt followeth that euen in the owtwarde societie and meetinges off the church no symple man can be called the head off it Seing that our Sauiour Christe doinge the whole office off the head him selfe alone leaueth nothing to men by doing wheroff they maie obtaine that tytle Wherfore whosoeuer in seeking to profite the churche according to his calling doth any thing to the preseruation off this body he doth yt as an eye an arme an eare or as some other member and not a◠head off it Now to his distinction owt off Andreas who after he confesseth that Christe is onely head as he gouerneth the church with his spirite addeth that for somuche as the church off God being visible is not onely ruled by the word but by sword off the magistrate that there be so many heades off the church as rulers off countries Where firste let it be obserued that he quoteth no place peraduenture leste some ether wordes or circumstance might gyue the answer Then that he enhaunceth his credite whith the tytle off a learned man where for any thing I haue redd and I haue redd his defence off the real presence against Beza yt might well haue bene lefte owte Howbeit both for his corruption in iudgement and otherwise I refer the learned reader to that Vrsinus a learned man hath written against him Wherby he may vnderstand howe this commendation was without discretion onely to serue the present tourne And I beseche yow Sir who is this Vergerius whom Andreas reprehendeth which you haue so nakedly set downe clothing Andrue so gorgiously This is is good reader Petrus Paulus Vergerius with whome whether the other be once to be compared ether for sownd knowledge or innocencie off lyfe I leaue to their iudgemēt which haue redd and knowē them both and withall whether if an argumēt of autoritie be off such weighte as the D. will haue yt he hath by this testimony made a hole in his owne cawse In the distinction yt ys firste to be obserued that as Andrue dissenteth from the truth so he doth from Pighius Harding and the D. for when he opposeth the gouernement by the sword vnto that off the worde making yt off the word a peece off the spirituall gouernement and then saith that there be diuers heades off the church in respecte off gouernement by the sword he gyueth to vnderstand that his Iudgement is that in respecte off the ecclesiasticall mynisterie our Sauiour Christ is onely head Which may yet better appeare in that he saith ther are so many heades as rulers of coūtries and saith not so many heades as bishops off churches And if this be not his minde yt will stand the D. vppon to bringe owt other wordes to declare yt Now Pigh Hard. and the D. vppon the bare word off Athanasius will haue heades in respecte off the ecclesiasticall gouernement they one ouer all churches he one in euery diocese Wherin the reader may see that yf this rottē seede take rooting howsoeuer the Princes honor be pretended the fruiete perteineth also to the bishops In which distinctiō off bishop head off his but not of the whole church albeit the D. woulde gladly seme to slip from the Papistes yet they will not so parte with him For beside that I haue shewed how the godly learned vppon that our Sau. Christ is head cōclude as well against heades of particular churches as against one head off the vniuersall this Iudgement off his is the deuinitie off two Popishe Councels Constance and Basile Where the Bishops those especially before partners in this robberie off our Sauiour Christ with the man off Rome and namely he off Antyoche displeased that the Pope alone should haue all that boutye to make Roume for them selues shut his headship vp in the compas off his owne countrie opening their eyes to so muche trwth as serued their owne tournes But to come to the poinct off Andrues distinction let yt be consydered fyrst that our Sauiour Christ ys in one respecte creator and preseruer of man kinde in another redemer ād vpholdder of his church For he created once ād preserueth daily as God coequal with his Father ād holy spirite but he both redemed once and daily gathereth his church as mediatour of god and man in which respect euen yet in his infynite glory he enioyeth he is an shall be vnder his father and holy goste vntill hauing put downe all rule and power he shall render the kingdome to his Father Secondly yt ys to be considered that as our Sauiour Christe doth thes in dyners respectes so he doth them by diuers means To wyt that as God symply he hath ordeined certein means to serue his prouidence in the perseruation of man kynde so as God and man he hathe ordeined other certein for the
Bucer followed an other interpretaciō thē wee yet yt shall appeare he mēt nothing lesse thē therby to approue any of this stately Lordlines vsed of our bishops and that he is in this cawse ours As for his interpretaciō for my part although I cōfesse that Princes in prouiding for the peoples vnder them doo after a sort serue them yet I deny that our S. Christ ment to note here Princes duties in their gouernment And fyrst the circumstance of the place doth confute yt For when as the disciples gaping after worldly rule depended of the opiniō conceiued that our S. Christ should be a great king vpon earth it is apparant that his answer that he came to be a minister and to serue was to ouerthrow that phantasye of theirs as if he should say yow looke to be Lordes vnder me and I my self came not to be a lord or Prince wherfore yowr desyre of rule vnder me is in vaine And if this be the naturall sense of those wordes then yt is manifest that this word of ministring being opposed vnto the state of a Prince this sentence can by no meanes agree vnto ciuill magistrates Further when he calleth his disciples to the imitacion of his seruice and ministry him self being a minister of the gospelly it is cleare that he speaketh of such a ministery as can not agree vnto the ciuill magistrate This may yet better appeare by the adiointes or cleauinges knit vnto the mynistery which being suche as can not agree to the cyuill Magistrate it followeth that thes wordes can not be vnderstanded off both gouernementes For our S. Christ in his mynistry did not onely serue vnto others but was as a seruāt ād did not onely minister but was as a minister that is to say caried the face and countenāce of a seruāt in apparell in diet in obediēce vnto the cyuill Magistrate Wherunto the Apostle hath regard when he saith that our Sauiour tooke the shape and forme off a seruant But Princes althowgh they serue the profite off their peoples yet they nether carye nether is it meet they should carie the forme and shape off seruantes ether in apparell or diet or any part off cyuill behauiour ▪ but contrariwise it standeth with the ordinance off God that they should haue some owtward marke off excellency aboue the rest Moreouer in that our Sauiour Christ declareth that the cheiftye of the disciples shall neuer be so great in the churche but that the highest shall be seruant vnto the rest it muste needes be that he meaneth an other kinde off seruice then can agree vnto the cyuill Magistrate For although he be called a minister and publicke officer of God for the profit of the people ād it be saied that Dauid did minister vnto the age vvherin he liued yet that the holy gost doth euer call them seruantes off their people as he saith here his disciples shall be it can not be shewed for this word seruant which our Sauiour Christ attributeth vnto his disciples and S. Paul vsed in saying that he was the Corinthians seruant signifieth a lower and more humble kinde off seruice then the other and is neuer attributed as I thinke vnto the ciuill Magistrate in respect off his subiectes but onely in respect off his subiection vnto the lord Wherupon followeth that forsomuch as our Sauiour Christ speaketh here of a more humble seruice then can fall into the Maiestie of the cyuill Magistrate towardes his people this place can not be vnderstanded off the cyuill gouernement That in the end hath also force that wheras the Euangelistes speaking off principalitie and greatnes which the Magistrate hath ouer his subiectes vse with full consent the word Prince when they come to describe the superioritie and greatnes which our Saui. Christ will haue in his mynisters they also with full consent absteine from it being proper as I haue shewed to the Magistrate and set in place theroff a leader a word off lesse autoritie and by thapostle ascribed vnto mynisters Where yf he had ment in that later part to haue described the duty off the cyuill magistrate he would by all likelihood haue kept the same word saying whosoeuer amongest yow shal be Prince shall be as yowr seruant Therfore yt is euident that our Sauiour ment this sentence off the ministry off the word and not of Magistrates I know well yow say this place is fitly alledged against the Pope and that in wordes yow thrust him far away whom in deed yow cawse to approch But forasmuch as yowr wordes seruing against the Pope yowr reasons are for him and that his person being changed his cawse is still defended it behoued me to looke not so much at yowr defiance in wordes as at that maintenance which the course off yowr disputation bringeth vnto him And let it be now considered whether yowr toung being with the Bishop yowr hand be not with Harding He to proue that the Pope may exercise both ciuill and ecclesiasticall iurisdiction bringeth forth the exāple of Moses both priest and Prince The Bishop to confute that alledgeth this text off S. Mathew which if it put not a differēce betwene the office of a Prince and off a minister as yow say it doth not then hath the Bishop answered nothing For the question is not there whether the Pope may tyran̄ously or ambitiously ether seeke after or exercise cyuill iurisdictiō but whether he may exercise any at all Nether is the question whether the Pope may exercise that autoritie as a thing belonging vnto him self or of the graunt off Princes For then his rule should be auouched good in some times when the Emperours haue willingly submitted them selues with their scepters vnto the pleasure off Popes As for his reigning in mennes consciences it peteineth not to this place So that if the D. answer be good then this place which the Bishop alledgeth maketh nothing against the Popes ciuill sword prouided that he seeke it not and that he haue it of the kinges graunt Which how contrary it is to the Bishops meaning may easely appeare by that which followeth Yf therfore he agree with the bishop as he saith he muste allow off thes wordes off Cyprian Christ by seuerall dutyes and distinct honours hath here set a difference betvvene both the povvers And then doth Bucers autoritie faile him who thincketh that those offices are not distinguished in those vvordes it shall not be so vvith yovv and then also is he goen from his strongest hold that our Sauiour Christ did onely discerne betwene the affections when as it is saied that he discerned betvvene the offices Moreouer then must he allow off Bernardes saying yt ys plaine that temporall domynion is forbidden the Apostles novv therfore thovv being Pope hovv darest thovv vsurp ether the Apostleship being a prince or the Princehood being successour off the Apostle doubtles from the one off them thovv art forbidden c. And if he allow
off this then falleth he from his conning distinction off hauing it ambitiously and by election For considering that Bernarde saith he is forbidden it and speaketh not there against the abuse but against the vse off dominion in a bishop it followeth that domynion nether falleth into a bishop in that he is a bishop nor can be receiued off him being offred off the cyuill Magistrate The reader therfore may see that the exposition yow follow off this place doth quite ouerthrowe the bishops answer ād openeth the Papistes mouth which he had stopped Yf this cawse should be tried by autoritie yow could gaine nothing Not onely Caluin Iewell with the auncient fathers which he alledgeth but Bulling Zuing. Gualter with a a nomber of others doo expound it as I haue doon and proue by those places off the Euangelistes in plaine wordes that there is no superioritie off one minister ouer an other and that with fuller wordes then Caluin vseth And euen the very same word Maioritie which yow say in the margent off the text is proued by these places Bullinger affirmeth to be ouertrowen by the same As for yow albeit yow pretend Musculus c. yet in very deed these answers which yow make are taken properly owt of Pigghius which hath all those corners reasons and shiftes almost word for word as yow haue cowched them here in this treatise I report me whether I haue spoken to the meaning or no yow haue mustered them by fyrst second third I will also answer them seuerally And to the first I answer that although our Saui. Christ saied not no man owght to be great amongest yow yet he saied as muche for when he saith the greatest shal be as the least he that is first as seruant to all he fetching downe the greatest to the least and making the cheiftie amongest them a seruice vnto them all taketh away all dominion off one ouer an other This reason I hauing answered before was vnneedfull to be here repeated so remaineth for him to proue that if our Sauiour Christ had ment to take away all domynion off the Apostles one ouer an other then he would haue saied no man owght to be great amongest yow and that there was no other way to giue owt this sense but this The second concludeth that our Sauiour had no meaning to take away superiours amongest Christians nothing to this question For no man denieth but there owght to be superiours As for that he interlaceth off Peter◠cheifty it is answered afterward The similitudes he vseth can not win his superioritie off one minister ouer an other For as for heauenly bodies althowgh one off them be more excellent then an other yet they exercise no dominion one ouer an other Therfore if it proue any thing it proueth that excellency off giftes amongest ecclesiasticall persons doth not lift them vp in autoritie and commaundement one ouer an other but onely maketh a differēce in order ād comelines Which we haue shewed in the beginning to be in ecclesiasticall mynistery where we willingly receiue order opposed to confusion refusing domynion opposed vnto subiection For the heauenly spirites what will yow alledge to proue that they haue domynion one ouer an other The place of the Ephesians thrones domynions principalities povvres if yow doo it is boldier then Augustine durst doo But if they be superiour one to an other that superioritie is answered in the church by superioritie off mynisters ouer the people If they be seuered in orders one from an other that is not denied to be in officers off the church If they exercise domynion one ouer an other that is expressed in commen wealthes So that if the Answ were able to proue all these which will be hard for him withowt Denyses dreames yet he may see they conclude not a domynion off one minister ouer an other The third reason likewise concludeth not against this cawse and to thes two reasons I answered at large Which if the Ans would haue taken away he owght to haue shewed that there can be no superioritie of one ouer an other in the church onles one minister be superior to another but that he passeth slily by and picketh a quarell vnto the examples To his exception against the first example that there is inequalitie amongest seruantes I answer there is none but by the maisters expresse appointement And therfore if he will haue aduantage theroff he muste proue that it is the Lordes ordinance that one minister shoulde rule ouer an other beside that it is enough to mainteine mine answer off equalitie off seruantes in a familie that it is so for the most part ād whē my meaning was of seruātes left in one and the same order yt is owt off time to alledge this exāple Secōdly the inequalitie there made is not of one steward ouer an other but ouer the familie which he ministreth vnto and therfore this similitude maketh to shew that one minister is not ruler ouer an other but euery minister ruler off his flock Thirdly that similitude off gouernement off the steward Math. 24. being propounded as a picture to set forth the rule off ministers ouer their flockes declareth not onely how there owght no gouernement to be erected in the church but by commaundment off God but also how far it owght to be from that absolute domynion or lordly pomp which the Answ would bring in which Musc a great man with the D. declareth when he saieth He speaketh after the commen faschion for this vvas the office of the principall seruant to gyue euery man his diet he vvas not appointed to be lord off others As for his exception against my other example of equalitie off brethren the inequalitie which the scripture maketh betwene the elder brother and the rest is nothing les then any rule or autoritie to commaund them but onely a reuerence which the younger owght to beare to the elder which we willingly graunt amongest the ministery that the younger men gyue place to the gray heares off the elder Thother preeminence off hauing two partes off the goodes wheroff the younger brethren had but one is no matter off inequalitie in autoritie wherof onely we speake wherin also we will not deny but one minister according to his charge off children may haue greater portion then other And both these exceptions are not taken against my allegation so muche as against the godly writers off our tyme Which to proue the equalitie of autoritie off the bishop off Rome with other bishops haue alledged that they called one an other brethren that they vvere fellovv seruantes Dominion here forbidden saith the Ans is not of one minister ouer an other but ouer the people wherin he is greatly deceiued For our Sau. Christ speaking to his 12. disciples according to S. Math. saith vvhosoeuer shall be great amongest yovv shall be yovvr minister and vvhosoeuer amongest yovv shall be fyrst shall be yovvr
seruant restreining their seruice off ech off them vnto the residue off their fellowes Againe the circumstance in S. Math. and Marck that the other ten disdained at the tvvo brethren and which S. Luke expresseth that the contention vvas amongest the 12. vvhich off them might seeme to be greatest do manifestly ouerthrow that saying For if they had not desired to be aboue the residue off their fellowes there had bene no cawse off disdaigne And the strife was not what gouernment they should vse ouer the people but which amongest them selues should be greatest Wherupon onles we will say that our Saui. Christ laied his plaister beside the sore and spake from the pourpose off that the cawse required yt must be confessed that this domynion forbidden is in respect off one minister ouer an other Whereby him that sitteth at the table he would haue the people vnderstanded he is grosly ouerseen for so by the testimony off our S. Christ the people should be greater then he him self seing he affirmeth that he vvhich sitteth is greater then he vvhich vvaiteth For noting the dignitie off a minister by that vsually annexed vnto maisters to sit at the table while their seruaÌ„tes wait he teacheth that forsomuch as he their maister to whom it apperteined to sit and be waited vpon was vnto them rather as a seruant waiting then a maister sitting at the table much more they being fellowes should serue one an other Where yow charge me for not truly translating the greeke word I appele to the maisters off that toung whether I haue followed the naturall etimolâ—gie Where yow ad that it signifieth the cheif ruler or guide in euery busines I acknowledge yow for no Lexicon and being in controuersie it owght to haue bene proued Stephen doth affirme that they vvhich translate it a prince haue no ground that he can tell off What cheifty S. Peter had amongest theresidue off the Apostles shal be considered in a more fit place it shall be sufficient here to haue noted that the Ans exposition off the word first is the same with Hardinges and my exposition which he here confuteth alone with the bishops which he confirmeth by good argumentes where he denieth that S. Peter was Prince of the Apostles or Lord ouer them or had power or dominion ouer them Then it ouerthroweth Musculus For where he saith that Peter vvas found in many places to haue bene cheif amongest the rest the D. by this exposition maketh him cheif symply in all places Thus it may appeare that yowr cawse findeth small harting at Musc hand Yow say my exposition is contrary to the truth and iudgement off the learned but yow shew onely that it agreeth not with certein interpreters iudgement that the truth is otherwise yow shew not If yow had shewed the fyrst that it is contrary to the truth the second had bene needles I propounded that doubtfully and although that significatioÌ„ of the preposition hath good warrant owt of the vse off that toung yet I will not stand at the armes and with so learned interpreters for it Howbeit when I gyue place yet S. Luke may not gyue back who vsing the simple verbes withowt the preposition maketh manifest that there is no peruersenes or deformitie off gouernment noted for if he shoulde meane to set forth a peruersenes or deformitie off gouernement and hauing so many wordes to doo it with yet did not I can not see how he should haue bene voide off some fault Where yow say he must be expounded by thother Euangelistes that can by no meanes be admitted For it commeth often to passe in the greek toung that compound verbes are put for simples but that simples haue a compound signification the vse off that toung will not suffer For the vse off the word in the Actes and S. Peter beside that it is not straunge for one word in scripture to be taken diuersly that place maketh nothing to proue this signification For what vvord soeuer S. Luke had vsed in the Actes yet forsomuch as that action came from those vncleane spirites it must needes be disordered Therfore the peruersenes off it doth not appeare in the word but in the subiect from whence it came And if a man would make that word to signifie a deformitie becawse that rule was beyond measure by the same reason the wordes Prince Rule Power names off lawfull autoritie should be condemned For that a scribed vnto Deuills they are allwaies tyrannicall And Beza also here alledged in that place saith the vvord noteth not any dominioÌ„ there but onely that they gat the vpper hand of those exorcistes which when it may be taken aswell in good part as in the euill the Answ can by no meanes help hym selfe therewith For that off Saint Peter where he saith it is manifest that it signifieth violent dominion I graunt that that rule which it signifieth is violent in a Pastor but that which is violeÌ„t in him ouer his flock is moderate and lawful in a Prince ouer his subiectes and so S. Peter kept the same distinction off gouernement off the ciuill Magistrate and the Minister which he had learned off our Sauiour Christ For if he ment by that word a dominion simply tirannicall he vvould haue opposed yt vnto a moderate dominion not as he did vnto being an example off the flock As if he should say yow must not beare dominion ouer yowr flockes as Princes vvhich vvith diuers notes of their magnificence get autoritie ouer their subiectes but yow not hauing thes meanes to get reuerence and autoritie amongest yowr flockes must so much the more enforce yowr selues to all commendable example off life Wherunto agreeth that which Saint Paul vvriteth vnto Timothe whom he exhorteth to kepe vp his autoritie in the churche and deliuer him self from contempt vvhich his yowth vvas subiect vnto by being a patron off good vvorckes vnto his churche And Beza in that place saying by those vvordes care and no kingdome ys commytted vnto Mynisters and that by that place yt appeareth that Pastors may not beare rule ouer their flockes after the manner off kinges doth sufficiently declare that the word doth not signifie simply a tirannicall dominion but one such as agreing vnto kinges is notwithstanding vnsitting for Pastors For he saith kingdome and Kinges not Tyrannie nor Tyrantes which he owght to haue saied if he would haue confirmed yowr interpretation Beside that Stephen putteth both the simple and compound to signifie one thing that is a simple dominion withowt any suche taile off tyrannie as is here imagined Yow may deny if yow will that the snow is white By all thes places must needes be vnderstanded those which Musc off whom yow speake doth interprete but yowr self had sayed before that he expoundeth those three off S. Math. Marck and Luke therfore although yow added not three yet that muste needes be vnderstanded And in this yowr shift yow breake yowr
grammers head seing Aristotle teacheth that the numbre of three is the least numbre that this vvord all can be verifyed off Where yow saied Christ did not say no man shall be great amongest thē my answer was that he had saied that before and needed not to repete it wherunto yow answer nothing The place I alledged owt of S. Luke ouerthroweth yowr answer For if by thes wordes vvhosoeuer vvill be great desire off dominion had bene onely found fault with then he would not haue spokē simply vvhosoeuer amongest yovv withowt adding any thing off ambitiō or desire to rule and to this yow answer nothing but couer yowr self onely with Musc autoritie For where yow say yow spake as the wordes be ▪ yow vnderstand well that they doo not specifie any ambitiō which yow must needes meane or els yow mainteine not yowr answer Where yow say S. Lukes wordes make against me as which insinuate that there must be some great amongest them yow take it otherwise then it is For if yow will not admit the interpretacion I alledged in referring this greatnes vnto excellency of gyftes one aboue an other nor Cal. interpretation sauoreth not in yowr tast that it is as much as if our Sauiour should say yovvr greatnes excellency and dignitie shal be in submitting yovvr selues vnto yovv brethren yet yow vvill not refuse Bucer vvhom yow here build vpon vvhich by great in this place vnderstandeth him that is elder in age and proueth it by the word younger opposed to him And it is not vnlike but one of those reasons wherby some off those disciples would haue grounded their principalitie ouer other their fellowes vvas for that they vvere auncienter in yeares Which soeuer of thes expositions yow admit yow see that to be great here signifieth nothing les then any dominion off one minister ouer another First the Ans saith that I goe about to proue that our Sauiour Christ doth not reproue thambition off his disciples vvhich is a manifest vntruth For I say that he doth reproue it and gyue also larger place to the reproofe off their ambition then he for vvhere he would haue it to consist onely in that they ambitiously desired to rule ouer their fellowes I affirme that he did not onely take them vp for that but also that they desired to rule one ouer an other which was not lawfull Secondly he saith I haue falsified his wordes in that I father off him that our Sauiour reprehended onely thambition of his disciples vvhich I doo not for my vvordes ascribe vnto him that he saied they vvere reproued not onely for desire off rule but for rule to oppresse Then to maintein this quarrell he affirmeth he saied our Sauiour reproueth the tirannicall rule off kinges off the Gentills as thowgh that made any thing to proue that he did in his disciples onely reproue ambition For reproofe of oppression in kinges vvas not part off reprehension off the disciples Moreouer he coulde not be ignorant by the course off disputation that vvhen I saied yf ambition onely vvere reprehended in the disciples I ment that if our S. Christ had forbidden his disciples ambitious desyre off rule one ouer an other and not rule it self which doth manifestly towch the cawse Thus partly with a manifest vntruth partly with a trifling cauil which if it were true maketh nether whoat nor kold it seemeth he would haue cast a mist before his readers eies that he should not see him giue the slip from my first argument in this diuis For vnto this reason that in that sense off the place vvhich he setteth dovvne the ansvver off our Sauiour Christ shoulde not haue benefit considering the Disciples might haue replied that he forbad tyrannicall rule of their inferiours but they desyred moderate and vvell ruled gouernement he answereth not a word To his answer vnto the second reason that they are called bountifull which haue no sparck of bountifulnes I replie that althowgh that may sometimes come to passe yet it shoulde haue bene owt of time to haue made mention of it here in that sense For if as yow say our Sauiour speake here against the tirannie and ambition of Princes then it was owt off place to make mention off the flatterie off their subiectes which call them by the title off bountifull For that is rather the fault off the subiectes then off the Princes If yow say that they desire that title first the wordes off S. Luke doo not beare it owt for he saith they are called gratious Lordes and not they desire to be so called Then it being a thing not simply vnlawfull for a Prince to desire to be called and counted bountifull to this end that by that fame men might be more seruiceable althowgh it should be graunted to yow that S. Luke ment that they desire that title yet forasmuch as there is no staine off ambition or tirannie in that desire yow are still behinde with yowr answer For yowr example off the Pope called most holiest c. yt is nothing like For men deceiued by error call hym so and althowgh they say vntruly yet they speake as they thinck which can not be in this case considering that no man can be abused by a false opinion off his bountifulnes which not onely giueth not but is an oppressor And although as there are found which knowing the wickednes off the Pope call him notwithstanding most holy so there be vvhich knowing the illiberalitie off their Princes call them notwithstanding bountifull yet yow should haue considered that S. Luke speaketh not here how Princes are called off certein particular persons but by what titles they are called generally of all their subiectes So that if yow would haue spokê to pourpose yow should haue shewed that it is a cōmen thing for tyrantes to be called generally of their subiectes whom they pill bountifull and that vvhich is harder for yow to doo that men will call ministers bountifull which giue nothing Otherwise the interpretation vvhich yow imagine hath no place To my third reason that it is not to be thovvght off all the Apostles that they desyred rule one ouer another to the end they might vse crueltie and oppression ouer their fellovves he answereth not a vvord It may be as I haue shewed gathered off the scripture which is not expressed in it els how take yow vpon yow to set downe that the 10. were as ambitious in disdayning as the 2. were in desiring seing that is not expressed If I be deceiued in thincking that those greek wordes be all one I am deceiued with the Grecians for so I haue red And if yowr autoritie were any in this case yet it is suspected and therfore needed better proof then yowr bare vvord and albeit it vvere true that the one hath sometime a more larger vse then the other yet hereit appeareth that the indignation off these Apostles vvas such as Aristotle defineth thother vvord by that is
I will ad others Wheras a Bishop may be ordeined by two or three other Bishops tharchbishop must be ordeined by all the Bishops off the prouince ether present or at the least consenting Now seing the ordination is off the forme off their ministerie and thes formall causes be diuers yt followeth that thes offices must needes be diuers And that the substantiall and essentiall forme of a Bishop is differente from that off tharchbishop yt is plaine also by that they are members off one diuision and therfore off necessitie differ in the substantiall forme as a man differeth from a brute beast not in circumstance but in that he is off an other nature And when the D. graunteth the effectes and worckes off tharchbishop to be diuers from those off the Bishop the one ruling thother obeing and that by oth gyuen and taken it seemeth very straunge that he should deny that it is a new and diuers office from those appointed in the scripture Furthermore when as the subiectes off the Bishop and Archbishop be diuers where about they be occupied the one hauing one church or to speake according to his sense one Diocese thother a whole prouince still it must fall owt that they are diuers offices Last off all forasmuch as offices in the scripture are perpetuall and thoffice off an Archbishop may be taken away by men by his owne confession yt must follow that they be diuers offices And if he looke when I should conclude a new minisâ—â—â—e beside that yt is all new which is straunge and straunge which is not coÌ„maunded by the word of God yt comming as shall appeare some hundreth yeares after the Apostles times whose onely autoritie is able to make the grey heares and antiquitie of a thing be reuereÌ„ced it followeth that this word new if he nourish any misterie in it is also truly verified of the ministerie of tharchbishop Timothe and Tite shall neuer be proued to haue had any such autoritie ouer the rest and if they had yet yt falleth not on tharchbishops side seing they were no Bishops but Euangelistes as hath appeared When the church appointed one Bishop to rule ouer all Ministers Elders and Deacons in the same church yt did appoint a new ministerie and all thes reasons almost before browght against the newnes off tharchbishops functions returne vpon the head of that institution And if there be any hould in the Ans word he hath otherwhere affirmed that thoffice off a Bishop is superior vnto the office off a Pastor yf so it is not the same But why dare not the D. aswell confesse that the church may erect a new mynisterie seing he affirmeth flatly as much in effect for to proue an Archbishop he alledgeth that beside those in the scripture the church may appoint both names and offices now I would gladly know first whether when the church appointeth an office that was neuer before a new office or no and then whether a new office be a new mynysterye And yff to erect vpp an office which was neuer be to erect a new office and a new office be a new mynysterie it must follow that the churche in erecting an other office then is set forth in scripture erecteth a new ministerie The Ans is afraied to confesse a new ministerie and not afraied to confesse a new office off which superstition I would gladly vnderstand some reason Now where he would haue the care off our Sauiour ouer his church in time off the gospel to consist in that he hath set downe the doctrine more plainly in all poinctes then vnder the law this being a doctrine off saluacion vnder the law that there should be ministers in the church yt followeth by his owne saying that he hath set yt downe more plainly in all pointes now then vnder the law Therfore also this point how many orders and degrees off ministerie owght to be considering that that was precisely defined in the law is more narrowly bounded in the gospel Thus he defending more in deed then in wordes he dare set downe is almost at continuall battaile with himself and hath scarce at any tyme his proofes and propositions of one measure But that I follow not the chase off wordes leauing his meaning where 〈◊〉 any light footing of it to be found that which he would say and wherwith his pourpose is vpholden can not stand that albeit our Sauiour hath tawght the doctrine more plainly now then vnder the lawe yet it followeth not that he hath performed that in the gouernement off the church If this be his meaning as I saied there is great iniurie doon vnto the church great dishonor vnto our Sauiour Christ For he hauing at all tymes doon the office not onely off a Doctor in teaching but also off a king in prescribing the manner and forme off gouernement vnto yt howmuch soeuer he is saied to haue doon lesse in appointing the outward gouernement off his church now then vnder the law so muche is both he robbed off that part off his kingly office which God his heauenly Father annointed hym vnto and the church spoiled of the fruict which should come vnto her therby Yt ys therfore a most certein doctrine that in all thinges perteining to the kingdom of heauen whether in matter off doctrine or gouernment the Lord hath in as great specialtie marcked them owt as ether before or vnder the law In cyuill matters and thinges perteining to this present life he hath I graunt vsed a greater particularytie with them then amongest vs framing lawes according to the qualitie of that people and coontrey wherin the leauing of vs at greater libertie ys so far from prouing the like libertie in thinges perteining to the kingdom off heauen that they rather proue a streighter bond For euen as when the Lord would haue his fauour more appeare by temporall blessinges off this life towardes the people vnder the law then towardes vs he gaue also polityke lawes most exactly wherby they might both most easely come into and most stedfastly remaine in possessyon off those earthly benfites euen so at this tyme wherin he would not haue his fauour so much esteemed by those owtward commodities is required that as his care in prescribing lawes for that pourpose hath somewhat fallen in leauing them to mennes coÌ„sultations which may be deceiued so his care for conduit and gouernement of the life to come should if it were possible rise in leauing lesse to the order off men then in times past And the D. should ether haue cut off quite that part off the Kingly office off Christ which consisteth in owtward gouernement off his church or els haue let yt had the full course Now when he graunteth that beside the doctrine off saluacion he entred into the description off outward gouernement off the church saying beside the doctrine he ordeined there should be not onely fit ministers to publish it but officers to gouerne the people in godlines as if in beginning
Therfore this difference betwene the Archbishop and Pope being accidentall and not towching the nature off the gouernement wheroff we haue to enquire is vnstilfully alledged Yet it is the hole wheruÌ„to the Ans is coÌ„pelled diuers times to haue his recourse That the ministerie is a matter of saluacioÌ„ that tharchbishop is a new ministerie that it is absurd here to flie to thexample off the Magistrate where the questioÌ„ is what Ecclesiasticall offices are profitable is before declared The Ans conclusion off my replie touching the place to the Ephes is euill shut vp For where he saith that tharchbishoprick may stand becawse that place reckening vp onely the ministeries of the word that is a ministerie off order and policie how could he forget that tharchbishop medleth with the ministerie of the word and therfore it was necessarie to be here mentioned if the Apostle had gyuen hym any place in the church If he will say that he hath not onely the mynisterie off the word but off order also the answer is at hand that so had both the Apostles by his owne confession and all the rest off those ministeries as appeareth afterward Whether therfore tharchbishop be considered in his ministerie of the word or as together with that he holdeth the raignes off gouernement or as one of the most principall ministeries of the church ether he hath his place here to the Ephes or not aâ— all For both all ministeries off the word to speak as the D. separate from gouernement and order and all occupied in the word and gouernement ioyntly and all principall ministeries of off the church are here reckened vp Euery one then off thes three cawses being sufficient to haue made mention of tharchbishop all together put a necessitie vpon the Apostle to speake off him if he had bene worth the speaking off Where he thincketh there was no cause to speake off him for that he differeth not from a bishop in ministerie off the word but in order and gouernement onely and that therfore yt is no diuers ministerie from the bishops office by the same reason I may say that S. Paul needed not to haue mentioned Pastors c. For the Pastors preached the word as the Apostles But yf this one difference alhough there were no moe make the ministerie of Apostles and pastors diuers that th one hath charge off one onely church thother off aâ—ryâ— must follow that the ministerie off an archbishop is diuers from the bishops th one watching ouer a whole prouince thother ouer a diocese onely Yea it is plaine off that spoken before off the Archbishops new ministerie that there are as many or moe thinges wherby he differeth from a bishop then any of thes ministeries S. Paul reckeneth vp differ one from an other His answer to the place off the Corinth consisteth in that he would proue that the diuision off offices there is perfect Wherin it it easie to see what extremitie my reply which he calleth a vaine shift draue him vnto and how he could not couer his nakednes here but with discouering an other place as vnsemely as this For amongest his answers to the place off the Ephes wherby he would proue that that diuision is not perfect this was one in the latin pamphlet that to the Corinth S. Paul speaketh off Apostles Prophetes and Doctors leauing owt Euangelistes and Pastors and now to auoide my replie to that answer he saith cleane contrarie that the Apostle made there a perfect diuisioÌ„ of offices But let vs see whether this chauÌ„ge be for the better Where he saith Saint Paul did more perfectly deuide to the Corinth then to the Ephes he is deceiued For euen by his owne confession he speaking there of preaching offices onely not off all offices off the church and there being none other preaching offices but those which he reckeneth vp yt followeth that he made there a perfect diuision In the place to the Corinth that there is no perfect diuision although the D. wordes he chaunged yet his reason he vsed standeth still that the Euangelist is not there mentioned nor Pastor which were offices in the church Beside that he kepeth in this refutatioÌ„ his ould wont which is to cut the knot and not to lose yt For he bringeth reasons of his to proue the perfectioÌ„ of the diuision withowt answering mine And yet his be such as are vnwothy answer For in the first beside that yt is vntrue that the Apostle made a perfect diuision of giftes in the church if he had yet it followeth not that he made the same in offices especially wheÌ„ he wil needs separate offices from giftes The second reason therfore yt is a perfect diuision because there is added first second third is as simple as the first for those wordes are not put there to note the noÌ„bre of offices but to declare which is highest in degree and which next c. aÌ„d if they did yet I neuer could yet read that they were notes off a perfect diuision His third because yt hath moe members then that in the Ephesâ— I think he vnderstandeth by this tyme what strenght yt hath if he remember that which I answered that the Apostles meaning to the Eph. was not to deuide the offices of the church in generall but those onely which handle the word onles par aduenture he thinck that he maketh a fuller partition which deuideth both the handes into eight fingers then which denideth one into fiue Martyrs autoritie doth not help him For he saith not that he reckeneth all the partes of the church particularly or how many it hath which he should haue saide to help him but onely that he reckeneth vp what members the church hath which he doth that reherseth some Whether a bishop be conteined vnder a Pastor or rather a Pastor vnder a bishop shall not now be the question But yow are inconstant in all yowr waies and haue one senteÌ„ce standing an other sitting For albeit I should agree with yow that a bishop is a Pastor yet yow doo not agree with yowr self For otherwere in stretching owt the Bishops armes yow haue thes wordes a bishop is both superior in office and giftes vnto a Pastor If he be so he can not be conteined vnder him for that vvhich conteineth an other thing hath at the least all in it self which the conteined hath Againe if I graunt a bishop conteined vnder the Pastor S. Paul speaketh of yet I will not graunt that the bishop yow meane which hauing so many churches to rule hath neuer a one where he doth the office off a bishop is conteined vnder S. Paules Pastor For seing his foundacion is laied in Ieromes bishop proued before and after not to be of the institutioÌ„ of God but off man yt can not be that our kinde of bishop shoulde be comprehended vnder S. Paules Pastor Wheruppon also followeth that tharchbishop which hath a necessarie relation to that kinde off bishop and can not
stand withowt him is not by any meanes conteined vnder S. Paules Pastor The proofes of yowr diuision of bishops into archbishops and those called by the commen name of bishops are as doubtfull as that wherfore they are brought To proue that the office off an Archbishop was in S. Paules tyme although the name were not is brought the word Consubstantiall ▪ which being the commen hooke off the Papistes to pull in their vnwrittē verities owght to serue the reader for a watch word that tharbishops office needing this phisick is sick off the same disease And for the word it self although it be lawful ād very conuenient and the councell off Syrme did not well in yealding vnto the Arrians to the displacing of it yet yt is not necessarie as withowt which the doctrine off the truth off the diuinitie off our Sauiour Christ can not be mainteined For to say so were to accuse the holy writers S. Iohn especially which debating that cawse against the heretickes of his time Cerinthus Ebion c. did neuer vse it But what is this vnto the Archbishop let vs haue but one testimonie owt off the word off God off the office off an Archbishop for the infinite testimonies off the diuinitie of the sonne of God and then this example may help yow And although the word Consubstantiall were not in S. Paules tyme Yet wordes off the same weight were If yow can shew therfore wordes of the same valew with Archbishop although yow shew not this yt shall be sufficiēt if yow can not then this example maketh against yow Here also is further to be obserued that this answer off the D. off the office of the archbishop being in the Apostles time although the name was not is the armour vvherewith the Popes title of vniuersall bishop is mainteined For this is Hardinges answer to the bishop that although the name of vniuersall bishop was not at the first gyuen to the Pope yet the autoritie was After he flieth to his ould refuge of the Prince and there seeketh couer for the Archbishop asking whether he shall haue no autoritie in the church becawse he was not in S. Paules tyme. Although S. Paul had saied that our Sauiour Christ had gyuen princes vnto his church immediatly after his ascension as he beareth vs in hand he gaue archbishops ether they must haue had autoritie then or neuer after So keeping yowr similitude if our Sauiour gaue Archbishops when he ascended and in S. Paules time ether they must haue had their autoritie then or neuer after And the case is nothing like for if there were no Christian Princes in the Apostles times they being needfull for preseruation off the churches the cawse was that it was not in the Apostles power to ordein Christian Princes But it was in their power to haue prouided the churches off Archbishops if they had bene needfull and therfore they had bene inexcusable for not appointing them seruing so greatly to the building off the church as we are borne in hand Moreouer the comparison is most vnfitly made seing the cyuill magistrate is a perpetuall office for all times persones places wheras by his owne confession the Archbisop is temporall and arbitrarie Where also he asketh whether the ciuill Magistrate shall not haue the cheif autoritie in gouerning the church because there ys no expresse mention off him in thes two places I answer that the Princes autoritie is established in other places so that it may florish withowt thes But the Archbishoprick seing yt ys an ecclesiasticall function ether must be planted by one off thes places or die in the church considering that there is no ecclesiasticall function which is not here set forth Yowr collection off my wordes is euill bound together for how cleaue thes Some offices instituted off God endured for a time therfore men may deuise new offices Where lieth the strenght of yowr argument Whether in this that becawse God instituted offices for a time therfore man may or in this that God did abrogate certein offices therfore man may institute Which soeuer yow say as yow must needes say one the absurditie is apparant for in both the comparison is made between the autoritie off God and thautoritie off man Betwene whom how great distance there is so great difference is there between yowr argument and a iust conclusion The cleane contrarie is gathered rather For as we reason against the Papistes that God did not abrogate his owne ceremonies that men should thrust in others considering that if he would haue had ceremonies he would haue taken off his owne so yt may be saied that God did not cut off his owne ministeries to make place for others and that if moe ministeries off preaching and gouerning iointly had bene necessarie beside Doctors and Pastors he would rather haue kept his owne then takē those vvhich men deuise Here all shiftes and coulors failing him and not being once able to lift at this reason he hath chaunged my argument For where I had saied yt forth in a plaine hypotheticall Syllogisme he hath altered yt But I will offer yt him againe yf vnder Saint Paules Pastor tharchbishop be comprehended then he is necessarie and commaunded by the vvord off God but yow say he is comprehended therfore he is commaunded and necessarie Which if it be true then yow are fallen from yowr distinction of thinges necessarie to saluacion and not necessarie off thinges arbitrarie and commaunded by the word off god But let vs see now yow haue prepared the argument after yowr owne fashion and as yow thowght yow could weld yt how yow deale with yt Yow say first this proposition Pastors are necessarie at all times is particular verily the masters by whom this should be iudged neuer tawght that an indefinite proposition in a necessarie matter is particular But because yow like not the forme which I vsed yow shall haue it after yowr owne in this sort All S. Paules Pastors are necessarie the Archbishop as yow say is one off S. Paules Pastors therfore he is necessarie Here if yow denie the first proposition yow haue the whole councell and Senate almost of learned men against yow affirming that those two Pastor ād Doctor are amōgest the rest perpetuall offices And if to be a perpetuall office be verified off the Pastor which S Paul speaketh of then it must be verified off all conteined vnderneath amongest whom yow say the Archbishop is Secondly the Archbishop being made one off the giftes which our Sauiour ascending sent vnto his church if yt were in the power off the church ether to establish or not to establish him yt should be in her power to refuse the giftes off Christ which if it be absurd that also must be wheroff this followeth Thirdly if the Archbishop be necessarie at any time which must needes be if he be comprehended vnder S. Paules Pastor then goeth to the grownd his cōmen refuge that his office may be instituted
or not at the churches vvill Moreouer if he say that it is necessarie ād commaunded a◠some tyme and not at others vvhat a miserable case is the churche in that hath no certein addresse owt of the word vvhen that necessitie and commaundement beginneth and when it endeth vvhen this office is in season vvhen owt of season Lastly forasmuch as S. Paul speaketh of offices thē in the chuch not of those vvhich came after as the Ans him self is forced to confesse the Archbishops office must needes haue bene in the Apostles tyme Which if it be true those times being as the Answ hath borne vs in hand so vnlike ours the persons in the church then off so different dispositions from those now the place also the gospell being thē in the East partes where now it is in the West it must needes follow that this monely office off the archbishop which ebbeth and floweth being fit for the Apostles times is by all likelihood vnfit for ours His distinction vnto the second proposition is that an Archbishop in respect off the ministerie off the word and Sacramētes is necessarie alwaies but not in respect of policie and gouernemēt Which is asmuch to say as an archbishop vvhen he is an archbishop is alwaies necessarie for the church For when he hath not the owtward gouernement then by yowr owne rule he is no archbishop then which speach what can be more absurd And of this answer followeth that there is a time vvhen the Pastors haue nothing to doo vvith the externall policie and gouernment off the church but onely to administer the word and Sacramentes and then the church shal be an heape and not a bodie a confused multitude not an orderly societie Yet in the next section he gyueth the gouernement off the church and order vnto the bishops and archbishops and will haue them part the stake off the Apostles autoritie vvhich they had in the church And as this answer is absurd so yt ys contrarie to that he hath set downe in his former booke that not onely the office off the Archbishop is necessarie but most necessarie I saied before that the Apostle speaketh to the Ephes off mynisteries vvhich haue to doo vvith preaching the vvord but neuer added as yow in yowr Doctors booke and here and not those which haue to doo with order and discipline Therfore I had nothing forgotten my self if be would haue vnderstanded that which is plaine to all the world for thes two may well stand together the Apostle spake there onely off functions conuersant in the vvord and the Lord spake of those functiōs vvhich Preach the vvord and administer the gouernement for the word onely doth not seclude gouernemēt from those ministries but shutreth owt all ministeries not preaching as that off the Elder and Deacon And yt is one thing to say the Lord spake there onely off preaching mynisteries an other to say he spake there of ministries onely preaching which me thincketh yow could not be ignorāt of Therfore Saint Paul reckening vp the ministeries there which haue together with the preaching of the word the administration off gouernement and making no mention off the Archbishop supposed to haue both yt followeth that yow are yet behinde with yowr answer I haue not confuted my shadow but yowr fond phantasie For if S. Paul speake in that place of those that haue the ministerie off the word and Sacramentes onely and not off those which haue to doo with the order of discipline yt followeth that Apostles haue nothing to doo with order and discipline forsomuch as they are amongest those which S. Paul there speaketh of If this cogitacion neuer entred into yowr head how cometh it to passe that yt ys found in yowr papers Lastly yow say the administration off discipline and gouernement in the Apostles is fallen vpon the Archbishops and bishops the ouerthrow off my whole assertion Yf a man will belieue yow speaking he may otherwise here is nothing but I saied yt And surely yt must be a very simple hould that is cast downe with this paper shot of bare affirmatiō but if yow will weigh a litle what yow say yow shall see that if there be any bullet at al in this yowr saying yt is charged wholy vppon yowr self For before yow haue saied once or twise that the office and autoritie off an Archbishop was in the Apostles tymes Which if yt be true how doth the Archbishop receiue his auauritie off order and gouernement by their death for hauing yt before he cannot receiue yt by their departure Ether therfore this is vntrue that the archbishop exerciseth the same autoritie which the Apostles or that which yow saied before that the office off the Archbishop was in the Apostles time or els this third is true that he hauing in the Apostles time autoritie which he hath now by their death obteined beside their former autoritie that which the Apostle had also Which how neere it pricketh at the papacye I leaue to euery one to consider But yf the Archbishop will succede vnto the administration off order and gouernement off the Apostels why sheweth he not his euidence why bringeth he not forth his recordes of bequest off resignation that it may appeare he is not entred as a trespasser In that sense which I haue shewed in an other place I graunt it true which Ierome saith that all bishops succede vnto the Apostles but shew me who speaketh any thing off the succession off the archbishop vnto them Nay verily that is flat against the archbishops autoritie For if euery bishop haue that autoritie in his church which the Apostles had in all the world it followeth that there nether needeth nether can be any archbishop to receiue any theroff And that if any archbishop chalenge a greater autoritie then is in any one bishop he pulleth to him self greater autoritie in his prouince then euer the Apostles had in the world And by the same reason that they be Lordes and superiours ouer bishops they must be lordes and superiours in their prouince ouer the Apostles them selues if they were aliue Considering they rule ouer those which in their dioceses haue the same autoritie that the Apostles had This I speake not that I thinck the Bishops had not this autoritie from the very birth and foundacion off the function as towching the gouernement off their churches or that there came any autoritie vnto them by the Apostles death which they had not in their tymes but that yt may be vnderstanded that if there were any such succession vnto the Apostles gouernement as the D. phansieth the bishops are the right beyres and that not certein other some shut forth but euery one as Ierome saith Although if tharchbishop should haue an Apostolicall autoritie in gouerning his prouince it hath appeared and more shall God willing that the Apostles gouernement was far from that principalitie and rule one ouer an other which tharchbishops chalēge ouer
that he hathe not smelte this frawde of the papistes and the cawse hereof he mighte haue learned it of Gratian who carieth this whole fable vnto that ende Yow wipe not awaie the filthe off the times vvherin Volusianus wrote and him yow purge not vvho by that he is so deepe in his masse appeareth to haue bene defiled with it And where yow say yt is not like that he would write any thing in that matter which he had not certeinly learned of worthy writers I pray yow what worthyer writers coulde there be in this behalfe then Denis bishop off Corinthe and Euseb I am sure he coulde not fetche further then thes So that from whom soeuer he took yt yf he receiued yt of any yt is cleare he receiued yt off those which being further off the Apostels times can haue no credite herin further thē they shew forthe the autors of their reporte but to make reume for the archbishop we must belieue those thinges as certeine which nether are now nor yet were thē extante whē Eusebius wrote which gathered his storie off writers before his time and not onely testimonies which neuer were but wherof the bare names are not to be founde Wheras the maner of writers is when they alledge any thinge that the former times had not spoken off as at the finding of some greate treasure to note the meanes how that fell into their handes Against the autoritie alledged owte off Eusebius that Denys was bishop is opposed that it is a negatiue argument of autorisie which is an engine to wringe owte off the churches handes a singular meanes which all the writers of our times vse againste the forgeries off the Papistes For when they reason against the forged Epistles againste Chrisostomes leytourgie against the bastard writinges of Augustine c. that there are thinges conteined in them which no writer of that age wherein they are supposed to haue writte maketh mention off the D. hath tawght an easie answer that yt is an euill argument off autoritie negatiuely and that yt followeth not that there were no suche thinges then becawse they were not mentioned in their writinges Likewise when the bishop of Salis made this chalenge after performed that yt coulde not be shewed owt off any alowed writer 600. Yeares after Christe that there was any mention off suche and suche thinges mainteined by poperie the Answ hath with one worde wiped awaie the profite off all those trauailes for yt maie be answered that suche thinges were althowghe none made mencion of them The Papistes in their defences haue harde foreheades but I thincke there is scarce founde amongeste thē that would not blushe at suche an answer Yet this is almost the salue for all sores namely where I haue shewed that in none of the writers within certeine hundred yearés after Christe which haue filled their bookes vvith the mention of bishops there is any the leaste mention of an Archbishop Againste which ryot off answer oftentimes repeted yt shall be sufficiente once here to haue spoken generally Now I come to that more proper to this place that histories are not so curious in calling men by their seuerall tytles because we vse to call the bishops of Canturbery and Yorke oftener by name of bishop then archbishop But he should vnderstand that yt is one thing to speake after the commen sort and an other to write to the approbation of the learned And when there ys no kinde of writing so narrowly bound to the obseruation of circumstances off place time person as a storie yt must bring a great mist in it to put no difference betwene a bishop and an Archbishop considering that that perteineth to the policie off the church vvherunto they had regard So that althowgh he vse some libertie off speach in other places yet in this place yt was more insufferable ād that so cōtinually in Denys twise in Iames in the bishop of Rome of Alexandria c. he might withowt reprehension haue spoken so once or twise but him perpetually to call all Archbishops bishops I thinck yow vvill hardly perswade any man off iudgement And if there had bene any such titles allowed yt would haue appeared in the superscriptions off bishops to archbishops At least the lower degrees off Deacons and Elders would haue acknowledged it as both dutie and honest ciuilitie requireth otherwise if the archbishops had bene froward they would not haue red the letters But not Eusebius onely Denys the Bishop who wrote vnto the church off Athenes so called him euen in that place where if he could truly he would haue awakened those of Athenes with the honorable mention off Denis their former archbishop and not haue let passe that weight off autoritie to haue made his admonition more sounding Furthermore if Eusebius had spoken so vnproperly he is yet to be charged with further confusion For he assigneth hym a parish which is a territorie belonging vnto a simple bishop and not a prouince which is an archbishops kingdom Yf therfore he confounded archbishop with bishop at least he should haue spoken dinstinetly off their charges Last off all how idle a pharisie this is off Denises archbishoprick may be considered forasmuch as Euseb in both places by me alledged calleth him the first bishop off Athenes And that he was first in those partes may easely be seene for that it was the wisdome of the holy gost to settle first the Gospell in the mother townes and head places of dominion◠that from thence it might haue passadge to places rownd about as the practise in the Actes doth declare Now if he were the first bishop chosen after the conuersion of Athenes by the D. saying he was made Archbishop before there were any other bishops to ouersee But forasmuch as tharchbishop is in the nombre of those vvhich hang of other and that there could be no archbishop vvhere there were no bishops nor bishop where there were no churches rownd about it is browght to passe that there being no bishops in those partes at that time vvhen Saint Paul ordeined Denys bishop he can by no meanes be thowght to haue ordeined him archbishop And that vvhich I haue saied in this point against the archbishoprick off Denis the last onely excepted is to be vnderstanded off Iames Titus Timothe c. Yf a spade be but a spade and a fig but a fig then a bishop is but a bishop Then also Erasmus saying alledged pag. 405. that Timothe was a bishop and no vvhere that he vvas an archbishop affirmeth that he was but a bishop Nether doth this make against but for me For if Erasmus speaking but of two called one of them archbishop is it like that Eusebius speaking of so many supposed archbishops called neuer one of them by their proper name nether vvill I stick to confesse that Erasmus deceiued vvith the corruption of times vvherin he liued spake as he thowght imagining Titus an Archbishop as left in Creta an Isle and
off his fellowe bishops assembled in Councell saithe in this sorte but because our prouince is spred forthe larger and hathe bothe Numidia ād Mauritania ioyning he saith not my prouince but our prouince which is manifestly referred vnto all the bishops assembled as the course off the epistle declareth Nether dothe he there speake off any iurisdiction or ouersight which he had more then an other Bishop nether yet off two Mauritanias as the D. saieth but off one onely Yt appeareth therfore that the water where he drew this was trowbled and from whence soeuer he haue yt Eusebius is off more credite in that matter Who speaking of Cyprians large dominion shutteth him with in the precinctes of Carthage saying he vvas bishop of the parish vvhich vvas in Carthage And allthowgh it be cleare that Cyprian had no suche iurisdiction yet to th ende this vnfaithefull dealing maie better appeare let it be considered what was the estate off the churche in Africa aboute 150. yares after when there were Metrapolitanes which had ouersight ouer Prouinces and this weede of Ambitiō had spred yt self much further in the churche In the Councell of Africke yt appeareth that Aurelius which longe after succeded Cyprian in the churche of Carthage had not him selfe anie iurisdiction ouer ether Mauritania or Numidia for that as he was bishop off the firste seate off that prouince wherin Carthage was so Xantippus was Bishop of the firste in Numidia and Nicetius of the firste in Mauritania I omit that Mauritania was deuided from Carthage by sea so that contrary to the D. interpretacion men must haue passed the sea for decision off causes Wherby appeareth what a fable yt is that Cyprian was Metropolitane off those three prouinces when euerie one had a seuerall Metrapolitane Where he cyteth Gregory Nazianzene that Cyprian ruled not onely the church off Carthage but Afrike Spaine and almoste the whole easte partes yt is to be obserued that where the D. seeketh by sea and lande in euery corner for bishops of the largest spred and lōgest armes at the laste he hathe met with one which hathe more then he woulde gladly shoulde be knowen for otherwise why hathe he concealed the reste of Gregories sentence Why hath he cut of the feet off yt why hath he pared Nazianzens wordes Because I haue not the booke I will set it downe as the bishop of Salisbury hath doone Cyprian vvas a bishop the mightiest and noblest off all bishops For he had rule not onely ouer the churche off Carthage and Afrike vvhich vntill this daie is famous off him and by his meanes but ouer all the vveast and in a manner ouer all the East likevvise ouer bothe Northe and Southe Thus appeareth he hath in this place lefte owte both sowthe and North partes off the worlde and for that the Bishop turneth vveast he turneth Spaine where if he cōplaine of the bishops translatiō althowghe I dowbt not but the bishop had reason seing Hesperia is opposed vnto the East yet if it shoulde note any one seuerall countrey yt is like to note Italy For so Ierome writeth that they vsed in times paste to call Hesperiam Italy especially whē it ys vttered simply withowt addyng vtter most nowe all maie vnderstād that Gregories meaning was not that Cyprian vvas ruler off all churches in the worlde in that sense the D. meaneth and that he had autoritie off an archbishop ouer all churches in the world but that he was famous amongest all and sowght vnto for coūsaile frō all partes Wherby appeareth that the iurisdiction bishops had in times paste owte off their certeine congregacions was nothinge but a reuerent estimacion purchased by opiniō of singular learninge and godlines wherby others willingly woulde bothe aske and folowe their aduise in gouernement off their churches And if the D. vvil haue Cyprian archbishop and Metrapolitane ouer all thes places let him answer what shall becomme off his exposition wherby he woulde haue euery Archbishop in his prouince to haue peereles autoritie withowt controlemēt of any other Archbishop what off the Prouince of Italy ascribed vnto Cornelius what off that wherby he saithe none owghte to goe ouer sea for triall off cawses for althowghe we follow his vaine off interpretacion in all thes and for a bishop vnderstande an archbishop for a churche a Prouince for the particular place where the quarell riseth all that circuite which is not parted by sea yet this one assertion off his that Cypriane was Metrapolitane of almoste all the Easte VVeaste Northe and Sowthe ouerthroweth whatsoeuer hathe bene saide in anie off those poinctes For the wyde throate off Cyprians Archbishopricke hathe swallowed vp all the rest and made them all but Suffraganes and by this reckening not onely men must passe the sea but manie seas to haue ende off their cawses Laste off all iff yt be true he beareth vs in hande let him tell vs why the Bishop off Rome maie not haue a souueraintie ouer all churches aswell as he phansieth off the bishop off Carthage considering they are in the same and felowlike degree Therfore onles he will ouerthrowe all that euer he hathe gone aboute to establishe in this cause and onles in trauailinge with the Archbishop he will be deliuered off a Pope and a Pope off the largest cyse and longest laste he must be compelled whether he will or no to expounde this worde gouerned by consailed or excelled or some other worde as kolde and as vnconfortable to the office off a Metrapolitane or archbishop Why Illiricus calleth him metrapolitane I haue shewed He saithe I forget my selfe which call him in one place metropolitā they are selie contradictions allwaies which he chargeth me with For he might haue remembred that I said that this worde metropolitane doothe signifie nothing but bishop off the cheife Citie in which sense I can easely aforde Cyprian to be a Metrapolitane withowte any greate hinderance off my cawse or helpe off his I passe the nexte diu hauing nothing but importunate and shameles begging of thinges in controuersie As that Cornelius had a prouince vnder him that Cyprian was Metropolitane that the place off Cyprian is trwly expounded off an Archbishop that I gyue the Papistes aduantage in saying that the place maketh as muche for a Pope as an archbishop that is to saie nothing for ether Vnto the nexte I haue answered where I laied open the vanitie off his answer that writers passe by the title off archbishops sauing that it is to be noted that where the D. hathe before affirmed in plaine wordes that the name off Pope was commen to all bishops here to gyue some coulor vnto his answer he woulde make vs belieue that the name off Pope was commen not vnto all but to manie bishops c. what M. Fox saithe in that behalfe I referre yt to the reader That the name off Pope was commen to all bishops besides the testimonies I alledged before may be seene
the bishop off the dioces and the archbishop off the Prouince yt must follow that in Cyprians tyme there were no pastors off particular churches For one pastor and one priest or Bishop being all one in Cyprians language there can be no moe off the one then off the other Last off all it may appeare by the councell of Cathage in Cyprians time that there were diuers Bishops off villages and small townes For off the number off Bishops there assembled the names off their townes wheroff they were bishops being there set downe are scarce fowre or fiue that are to be found as I thinck in any Cosmographer which reckeneth vp the principall cyties and townes off Africk and namely there is expresse mencion off one Ianuarius bishop off a village called Cesars village Thus I trust yt ys cleare that by one church one priest nether an archbishop of a Prouince nor bishop off a dioces but onely a minister or bishop off one particular congregacion is signified Thaccusacions off passing forgerie c. deserue no answer I haue no where reasoned that one should not be rightly chosen bishop if any be absent that haue interest in thelection my reason is that forsomuch as all the people off Cyprians Bishop was by the Ecclesiasticall discipline appointed to be present at his choise and by no good order off discipline the whole dioces or Prouince could be so appointed therfore the whole people off Cyprians Bishop was nether the people off a dioces nor Prouince And where yow haue to shew the vanitie of my assertion translated almost half a side let the reader consider to what pourpose For where he noteth that Cornelius was made bishop by testimonie of his fellow bishops thorowghowt all the world I can not tell for what cawse he should note it Onles yt be that because the bishops thorowghowt the world testified their agreement by letters vnto his election occasioned therto for that Nouatus denied it to be lawfull therfore it is not vnlike that the people of a whole dioces or prouince were present in proper person at the choise off the Bishop and archbishop And if he ment that he is far short of his reckening nether is it made vp by his third note which I thinck tendeth to the same end For where it seemeth that by thes wordes and good men he would haue it thowght there were other people beside the cytisens off Rome at Cornelius election the wordes are of auncient priests ▪ and good men in the colledge referring the word colledge to good men as wel as to priestes So that by good men he ether meaneth those aunciēt priestes or some other ecclesiasticall companie where the Answ restreining colledge vnto the Priestes onely would haue his reader thinck that the people off the Prouince were gathered thether to chuse Cornelius archbishop But this is a wonderfull change that he which before esteemed it inconuenient that a seuerall congregacion should◠meet to chuse their pastor is now browght into such streightes that he seeketh to make the whole dioces or Prouince assemble for choise off their pastor His other note that Cornelius passed thorowgh all ecclesiasticall offices c. vnto the bishoprick is idly put Whether a preacher was the same with a bishop belongeth to an other question and is altogether owt of season here For althowgh an Elder which ruled onely were inferior vnto a bishop yet therby followeth not that an Elder which preached was so Where he saith I falsefie Cyprian and that yt is too great boldnes to say Priuatus was condemned by 90. Bishops of one Prouince the truth is Cyprian saith not they were off one Prouince But forsomuch as Priuatus was off the same Prouince with Cyprian and controuersies rising in euery Prouince were for the moste part voided by bishops of the same onles a generall Councell can be shewed a Prouinciall is presumed beside that it is vnlike that Cyprian to then tent he might draw Priuatus into greater hatred would haue omitted that circumstance off Generall Councell if it had bene And where he asketh what if there were so manie bishops in one Prouince whether yt he cōciuded therof that euery seuerall congregacion had her bishop I answer that if there were 90. Bishops in one Prouince off Afrike and that were obserued then which ether the moste commen practise off all times hathe tawght or which was ordeined after ward in the Councells off Afrike that the Bishops off euerie Prouince being parted into twoo or three companies owte off euerie off them certein should be sente in the name off the reste wherby a greater nomber remained at home then came to the councel and that be also remembred that there were diuers places where there were Nouatian Bishops and further that the moste parte of townes and cyties being heathen and Idolatrous had no bishops at all as yt was in those daies Ad hereunto that in Stephen Bishop off Romes time which liued in the same time with Cyprian there vvere innumerable catholicke bishops Lastly in those times of persequutions the nomber off them which professed the Gospell in one towne being for the moste parte sofewe that fowre or fyue of the nexte townes were scarce sufficient to make a competent assembly hable to mainteine the ministrie I saie all thes thinges considered and bound vp together I thinke yt will appeare vnto the indifferente reader that euery congregaciō where the word of God vvas preached and sacramētes administred had a seuerall bishop For if they had bene such bishops as ours althowgh the whole world had bene Christian a litle Arithmetick would haue serued to count them Where he saith the Patriarche off Antioche had 160. Bishoprickes vndernethe him yf all those were in one onely Prouince I am glad to heare of it If by a Prouince he meane the fourthe parte of the worlde the Patriarche hauing then gotten vnder his gripes so manie metropolitaneships yt was no meruaile althowghe the bishops vndernethe him drowned as many bishoprickes Besides that it is ridiculous to alledge this exāple which was long after against thestate of Cyprians Bishop Where he saith by keping back the place off Cyprian I gyue suspicion off forgerie I know not how I could haue giuen him more particular knowledge of it then in telling him that yt was in the same Epistle owte off which both he alledged his sentence and I my answer First I requiring autoritie to proue that by the worde churche ys vnderstanded a Prouince he answereth all learned writers so expound yt He dealeth but hardly vvhich hauing al will not vouchesafe to shewe one for as for those which he makethe shewe of afterwarde yt shall appeare how litle they serue his pourpose His nexte answer is that it is no vnacustomed thing to call the churche throwghe a prouince by name of the metrapolitane seate of the prouince If this were accoustomed and in those times wherin Cornelius and Cyprian lyued for
Antioch is first vnfaithfully translated after vntruly gathered vpon For where the Councell saith that the Bishop praesident in the Metropolitan citie should haue care of the Prouince because all men vvhich haue busines vse to come from all places to the Metropolitane cytie he hath pag. 332. turned the wordes off the Councell vpside downe putting in steed off because all men c. wherfore all men c. making that the effect which it maketh the cause and the cause which it maketh theffect The Coūcels meaning is that forsomuche as men doo vsually for other busines resort to the Metropolitane cytie therfore the bishop of it was most fit to whom controuersies should be browgt He translateth also for parish dioces and so in steed that the councell supposeth the bishop to haue vnder his charge often times beside those in the towne he dwelleth in certein villages which resort vnto his churche as in Hitchin and diuers other places with vs he to be sure to put in enowghe supposeth by his translation that the bishops had a diocese and their places beside If by diocese he meane suche as ours I would gladly knowe what those places were which the bishops had beside their dioceses when as in the largeste spred of bishops they were notwithstanding tethered within the compas off other dioceses Yf by it he meane a parishe suche as euery minister with vs is assigned vnto why vseth he diocese to deceiue the reader especially when the Councells wordes pulled him to the worde off paris he Yf he will excuse this later faulte and laie yt vpon the translatour of the Councels which turneth Parish Dioces he confirmeth at vnawares that which I saide that at the first a diocese and parishe were often confounded Howbeit that the Councels wordes can not beare that significacion as we take Dioces is before declared Vpon thes wordes he gathereth the hishops are subiecte vnto the metropolitane and that the councell willeth them to be so which is very vntrue for there is no worde in that canon that proueth subiection muche lesse expresseth As for the honor which they should giue him I haue shewed what it is owte off the Councell off Nice the care for other churches in the Prouince cometh after to be considered For the bringing off matters vnto him which they coulde not ende at home yt appeareth by diuers places that they were not browght to him to determin but onely to make relation off vnto the prouinciall councell and that he coulde ende no matter but which aduise off other Bishops in the same Prouince In the Africane Coūcell yt was decreed that if a bishop striuing vvith an other about the territories entred into them vvithovvt hauing resolutiō of the other bishops althovvgh he had the peoples consent and Metropolitanes letres he should leese his cause In the Councell of Sardis abowt the same time with that off Antioch the bishops call their Metropolitane brother and fellovv bishop What Lordship and dominion can be gathered off thes thinges I know not And that this was the first institution off Metropolitanes which I haue alledged and that I haue herin not straied from the meaning of the Councels may appeare by the testimonies off others which haue spoken off this matter Caluin saith they vvere instituted for preseruatiō onely of the policie and what that was he sheweth by the bishop the same in his owne churche which the Metropolitane in the Prouince That yt was as the office off a President in a Councell to propound matters togather the voices c and to put that in execution vvhich vvas decreed by the rest denying flatly that he had any dominion ouer the Elders off the same churche and affirming that he him self vvas subiect to the companie of the elders The same therfore by his iudgement must be the state off the Metropolitane towardes other Bishops Bucer saith there vvere certe in bishops assigned to the cheif seates vvheroff they had a singular care vvhich did not be haue themselues as bishops ouer the bishops off those dioceses but if any of them faulted admonished him as one brother doth an other as one fellovv and companion in office doth an other And if the bishop admonished ether did not or could not amend the fault he made relation of the vvhole matter vnto the Synode After he sheweth that at the first the excellencie and preeminence off the bishop off Rome Constantinople and Alexandria c. vvas not off povver and iurisdiction but of knovvledge zeale care and help of others vvhich those cheif bishops did so yeald vnto the churches that they left the vvhole right off the bishops office equall vvith that they thē selues executed vnto euery bishop Bullinger after he had proued all dominion primacie and maioritie forbidden by our Sauiour Christ vnto the minister saith From the beginning the Apostels and ministers off the churches vvhich folovved the rule off the Apostels gouerned their churches equally vvithovvte that one vvas preferred before an other which he offereth to proue by manie testimonies and aboute the councell off Nice and a litle before Metropolitanes by mans ordinance not to be contemned vvere receiued vvhich should as it vvere be presidentes vnto the reste or rather serue all the reste in calling Synodes And yt vvas very vvarely prouided that he should not be called the primate leste any man shoulde thinke that he vvas superior vnto other in povver but in order onely Wherin almoste all the poinctes off the Archbishop and Metropolitane debated betweene the Answ and vs are conteined For firste he denieth that there was any preferment of one minister aboue an other in the Apostles times Secondly he saith the office off the Metropolitane came in a litle before the Councell off Nice Thirdly that it was not lawfull for that metropolitane to be called primate Fourthly that he had no power ouer the reste but serued onely for keping of order in meetinges All which thinges we affirme and the D. denieth and that not withowte a triumphe As for that he saith this institution of man is not to be dispised it appeareth that he ment not to commend it but onely to signifie that if yt had remained in that simplicitie it might haue bene the easlier borne especially considering they haue no such order off Metropolitanes with them The B. off Salisbury vnto Harding obiecting that the primates had autoritie ouer inferior bishops answereth they had it by agreemēt and coustome but nether by Christ nor by Peter nor Paul nor by any right off Gods vvord Wherby not onely ys confirmed that whiche I propounded off my not variyng from the godly writers but also falleth the D. dreame that they were instituted by the Apostles Yea further appeareth that their institution with autoritie ouer other was vnlawfull as that which hath no manner warrant owt off the word off God. Hauing answered the Councells I returne vnto Ieromes place as yt is
whom there is any light off iudgement would say it is matter off storie vvhether the appointing off one in euery church ouer the rest is remedie againste heresie or no I◠perteineth to the storie that one was placed ouer the rest at such tyme and place as is set downe by Ierome likewise that the cawse that moued them to bring in this coustome was for preseruacion off peace and none off thes is denied but whether this cawse were well assigned and whether this supposed to preserue peace banished godly peace is the question If this be a matter off storie storie hath a larger kingdome then euer I heard off Yet this he doth as absurdly charge me with after in Iustines testimonie where likewise I denie no part off his storie Yf this be to discredite men to say their autoritie ovvght not to vveigh further then yt hath vveight ether off scripture or some reason grovvnded theroff then I haue discredited all writers from the Apostels time For by thes weightes I haue esteemed the best But I leaue to be cōsidered what a popish tyrānie he goeth abowt to bring into the church which lifteth the credit of any be he neuer so godly ād learned aboue that which I haue here alledged Where he saith I confound Monarchie with Tyrannie in that I ask whether the church be not in as great daunger when all is doon at the pleasure off one as when one pulleth one peece and an other an other yt is but a vaine shifting hole For althowgh thes wordes at the Pleasure and lust off one be for the moste part spoken by way off dispraise and I willingly confesse I vsed them becawse this Ecclesiasticall monarchie seldome or neuer deserueth better yet my wordes following declare that my comparison is betwene the Ecclesiasticall gouernement off one and off many not betwene one gouerning tyrannically and many moderatly For supposing that both the Archbishop and those which gouerne in commen be godly and catholike I affirme that he being one is sooner drawen into error then many sooner ouercaried with his affection then a godly companie In answer wherof and reasons wherwith this is confirmed the D. falleth flatly into that wherewith he chargeth me For in steed that he should haue marched many godly and learned ministers with one he matcheth him with the multitude and commē sort and in steed off comparing one ruling by law with many gouerning by the same he compareth him with a lawles companie and in steed off comparing a litle vvater with much of the same kinde he compareth a litle conduite water closed vp in lead with much fennish and muddy Which what leaden answers they be let the reader iudge For in this path of reasoning which he walketh in a man may proue it better to haue but one eye then two becawse some see better with one then other some with both His answer to that off preferring contention before vvicked peace that we haue the true doctrine and right administration of Sacramentes c. and therfore no contention is to be moued is as muche to the question as if he had answered off the wether For the question is not of the estate off our church but off all generally nor whether we haue the truth of doctrine c. but by what way yt ys best kept His answer to the similitude of fire stricken by flintes is more fond For I shewing by yt that contētion is better then wicked peace he answereth the fire stricken may be in suche a time that it may consume the whole countrey and that it is madnes to light a candell at noone daies As if the fire off the truth which I spake off and so called off our Sauiour can consume any thing but straw stuble c. or the Apostle were not glad that the truth came forth allthowgh by contention or it were noone day when the heauens thorowgh ignorāce ād errors are like an haircloth which is the time I spake of And where hauing shewed that tharchbishop is not fittest to kepe the church in possession off the truth I admit by way off disputation that he vvere the fittest adding that forsomuch as he hath as great force to kepe men in error vvhen they are fallen into it this in commoditie ovvght to driue vs to some other gouernement he answereth a monarchie being the worst kind of gouernement when it ruleth by affection ceasseth not to be lawfull when it ruleth by lawes Where first I refer the reader to that before that it is one thing off the forme off church gouernement an other of the commēt wealth which is answer to all thes slanderous speaches here repeted Secondly the church receiueth greater dammage by an Archbishop keping yt in error then the commen wealth by any outrage off tyrannie For there can be no tyrannie in the gouernement off the cōmen wealth so extreme wherin there is not somthing tending to preseruacion off it and consequently off the church But in the gouernement off an Archbishop fallen from the truth and in the swinge off his vncontrolled autoritie keping the truth vnder there is nothing but destruction and ruine withowt step or footing off the fauour off God towardes the vpholding off the church Seing therfore tyrannie in the commen wealth is not so great an ennemy vnto the commen wealth as a church tyrant vnto the truth there is better cawse to haue a Monarchie in the commen wealth then in the church as that which can not stray so far as the other from the end wherunto it was ordeined Moreouer the cawse why the Monarchie in commen wealth can not be condemned is for that it is one off those gouernementes which God hath established and allowed by his word But the Archbishoprick to let pas that yt is contrarie to the word off God yt is sufficient in this consideration that yt hath no allowance off the same For therupon foloweth that althowgh the abuse off those thinges which God hath approued can not destroie the lawfull vse off them yet this which hath no further alowance then of the mouth off mē may vpon experience off euill husbandrie in the church matters be worthely reiected So yt may be seen that althowghe the Ans would make one case off a Magistrate and archbishop yet there is as far distance betwene them as betwene heauen and earth Yt resteth to shewe that the archbishopricke hath bene so farre from nourishing the church peace that yt hath bene the knife wherwith all the stringes and knottes theroff haue bene cutte in peaces Againste vvhich the Ans alledgeth firste the testymonies off Cyprian and Ierome Wherin besyde that I haue shewed that they helpe him not yt is before declared that nether Cyprians bishop did any thing at all nor Ieromes the ordination excepted but by common consent off all the elders Not onely because they were at making off the church lawes vnder which wrinckel the D. woulde hide the excesse off the archbishops
ministers preach and suppresse heresies so well thorowgh all the church as an archbishop in a Prouince I haue shewed that albeit one be graunted more impossible then the other yet this also is impossible which is sufficient to proue that in hand And that is here confessed when he is constreyned to lay one part off his dutie vpon his Suffraganes shoulders an other vpon his archdeacons c. All which if he be able to beare him self why doth he driue them vnto others Let the church at least be discharged off thes bourdens If not why hath he taken it vpon him Yf the Pope deserue condemnacion for taking more vpon him then he is able to doo the Archbishop and bishops which beare him companie in this point caÌ„ not be separated from it So this reason browght against the Pope standeth fast against them Moreouer as the Pope can not dispatch his matters in the whole churche so well as an Archbis in a prouince so can nether an Archbis in his Prouince so well as a bishop in his dioces nor he in his dioces so wel as in a particular coÌ„gregacioÌ„ doo the duties of a bishop So that this answer no more shutteth owt the Pope then the archbishop or lordly bishop But he saith the archbishop may haue conference with his archdeacons and Chauncelours which the Pope can not He seemeth to haue forgotten the conference by letters and intelligence which the Pope hath had from tyme to time so particular and precise off churches furtheste off him as if he had bene in the bosome off them which pointe Maister Tindall hathe well set forthe And would to God there were the tenth part off the fruicte off the archbishops conference vnto the good off our churche which hathe bene off the Popes to the ouerthrow therof And if conference by mouthe be necessary Rome is not so far but as it hathe bene so it maie be had For besydes that stories aforde vs diuers examples off churches which haue sowght the appeasing off their controuersies from places further remoued then Canterbury is from Rome the marchandrise off vnitie owght to be so precious that we shoulde not doubte to saile for yt vnto the Indes and Garamantes so that if there be suche a mysterie in the nomber of one to kepe vnitie the distance of place owght not to hinder this monarchie off the whole churche yf for no other cause yet for this that when the archbishops of whom hangeth forsoothe the churches peaâ—â— are fallen owt there maie be some to accord them That as the mynisters haue lorde bishops and they tharchbishops so the archbishops might haue a Pope in reuerence off whose autoritie they might easelyer be conioined And in deede by so much more yt is necessary in this respect there should be a Pope ouer the archbishop then ether archbis ouer bishops or bishops ouer ministers as the reÌ„te and diuisioÌ„ in theÌ„ being cheif is more hurtfull then when it falleth amongeste those in lower places For when schismes and heresies light amongeste them they spred so muche further as they with the arme and power off their autoritie are hable to flinge them further then the other The differences betwene the Pope and the archbishop serue but for stuffing for I excepted in my replie the corruptions off doctrine and yow owght to haue vnderstanded that superiority of one bishop ouer all in the catholike churche chosen by consente doothe not necessarily drawe thes accidentes of contempte of Princes of making their decrees equall with the lawes of god c. Yow should therfore haue made yowr coÌ„parison betwene an vniuersall Bishop chosen and not breaking in violently meinteining the truthe and not fighting againste yt c. Vnto that I alledged that thinges passing by voice in the churche of Alexandria the distinction off bishop from the reste off the elders in the church there might come in vvithovvte Saint Marckes consente he saithe nothing And in deede if he had obteined that which he woulde so faine that this alteration was made in S. Marckes time yet he shall neuer obteine this that S. Marke had his hande in that chaunge onles he will saie the Apostells and Apostolicall men were autors off all thinges doone in their time in euery singular congregacion Vnto that I saide the vvordes from Saint Marcke maie be taken rather exclusiuely to shut ovvte S. Marke he answereth that none off iudgement will graunte that where notwithstanding he that hath anie iudgement doth easely vnderstande that the wordes haue manie times that significacioÌ„ and that they are so here I am coÌ„tent it be tried by the other reasons propounded I alledged that S. Marck can not be autor off that distinction because he making those thinges diuers vvhich the holy Gost made one should make the storie he vvrote suspected He answereth yt ys certeine thes were no otherwise distinguished then the holy gost appointed them which I haue shewed how shameles yt ys Then that my collection is vngodly to imagine so off the gospell written by the Euangeliste As yff I did not in plaine wordes deteste all suspicion of the vntrwthe off that Gospell and therfore caste awaie his false surmise which might gyue occasion theroff He saith therby appeareth at the least that yt was auncient I denie not but yt is manifeste also that ther were other corruptions in some places of the churche as aunciente The Answ as his coustome is taketh his pleasure off me because vpon the wordes off Ierome this coustome vvas at Alexandria I gather that yt was not in other places As if yt were not manifeste that Ierome noteth where yt began and if it had beginning at Alexandria yt was there when yt was not in other churches If it had had further passage at that time Ierome should haue doone yt iniurie in coÌ„cealing yt For it would haue made much for the credite off that distinction Which I alledging in the next diuis the Ans saith nothing vnto Nether is there anie so rude an idiote which knowethe not that a notable or vnwonted thinge saide off one man place or time is spoken emphatically and excludeth all other But as the D. will not vnderstande a generall proposition vnles yt haue the signe all or euerie before yt so he will not vnderstande that any thinge is appropriat vnto another vnles yt haue thes wordes onely alone c. And it is cleare how intollerable the D. is in his insultations seing Ierome in saying that this coustome gat grounde by litle and lytle declareth the trwth of my collection And where he answereth to that I obiected off the confounding oftentimes off prieste and bishop that the bishop is a prieste but not contrariwise he first answereth not to the argumeÌ„t For this is not to be confounded when off two thinges one is verified of the other but thother can not returne and be verified of his fellow Secondly his answer is ouerthrowne by his exposition of the place of
the bishop bothe a Patriarche off Englande and a Patriarche off all Englande But because the D. will not suffer him selfe to be bounde with any cordes but off autoritie I will annexe his autoritie off whom he would seeme to haue borowed the greatest pillor off the Archbishop Musculus therfore after he had alledged the sentence off Ierome to Euagr. off equalitie off the Bishop off Rome and Eugubium c. concludeth thus Ierome vvhen he vvrote that did not thincke off the povver off the patriarches metropolitanes and primacie off the bishop off Rome but esteemed that vnto euery bishop did belonge the same care and povver in his ovne church Nowe to the Ans shiftes The first is owte off Ierome to Rusticus that euery ecclesiasticall order is subiecte vnto her gouernours wheroff I would gladly knowe what he concludeth If an Archbishop there is no apparance And the Ans being so bountifull in translating hathe here cut off the sentence in the mâ—ddle for what pourpose let other iudge my answer is therfore that he must proue by Ierome that there was an archbishop or that Ierome alowed off one before the sentence off Ierome can profite the Archbishop His seconde is that the testimonie off Ierome touching the equalitie off the bishops dooth not hurte the autoritie off the Archbishop considering that it is not denied but that euery bishop and minister are equall as towching the ministerie but not in order and policie which distinction althowghe I haue confuted and shewed also immediatly before that it is cleane againste the minde off Ierome yet here yt is to be obserued that as his argument owte off the place againste the Luciferanes for the Archbishop ys borowed of the Papistes so this shifte is Hardinges wherby he would auoide the force off the bishops answer Harding saith that tovvching honor dignitie and povver off bishoply order and office and off pristhood as good and as greate a bishop in that respecte is the one as the other and the bishops off thes litle tovvnes haue as greate a merite in regarde off any their vertues and as great povver concerning the order off priesthood as the bishop off Rome c. Yet tovvching povver and autoritie off regiment the Patriarches off Constantinople c. be aboue the bishops off other dioceses The bishop to this shifte answereth with Erasmus who saith that Ierome seemeth to matche all bishops together as if they vvere all equally the Apostells successors And further alledgeth an other place of Erasmus where owte off that place off Ierome he affirmeth plainlie that the bishop off Rome is aboue other bishops onely by riches If by riches onely then not by gouernement as Harding and the Ans affirme And where Harding vnder this word merite woulde hide him self as doth the Ans the bishop answereth by merite is mente vvithovvt all question preeminence which he D. alledgeth is vsed off Harding againste the bishop so yt ys Latomus an other Papistes shifte againste Bucer vnto whom Bucer answereth the Bishops vvere in euerie respecte at the firste equall one vvith an other as is before alledged And where otherwhere he pretendeth alowance of this Popishe distinction by the godlie writers the trwth is nothing so For as touching Caluin he hath openly depraued him He onely sheweth vpon 2. Cor. 10. vers 8. that there are diuers degrees off ministers and that one is aboue an other as an Apostel aboue a pastor which is confessed but that one pastor is aboue an other which is the question he hath not a worde That owt of Heza is onely a recital what was done not what he alowed coÌ„sidering that as hath bene shewed he vtterly condemneth those offices off Lorde bishop Archbish c. beside that in shewing that they came in proces off time after the Apostles he hangeth the D. cawse on the hedge which woulde haue this distinction in the time of the Apostles Nether hath Hemingius this distinctioÌ„ where the D. supposeth he onely saith that they are equall as towching spiritual regiment What they be in external he referreth to another place which when the D. bringeth he shall haue answer And whensoeuer yt cometh I thincke yt will ouerthrowe his before that there are some ministeries of the word and Sacramentes onely some for gouernement also for althowgh he allowe a gouernement vnto him he calleth bishop larger then to an other minister yet I thincke he can not shew that he shutteth owt thother owte off the externall gouernement Ad also that I haue shewed that euen when thes smokey offices came first in nether the Doctor nor pastor were seuered from gouernement off their seuerall congregation For that wherin the metropolitane then exceded the pastor was a preheminence or honour withowt autoritie so that euen then yt was an euill distinction off certein ministers off the word and sacramentes onely and certeine which did gouerne His third answer is owt off the B. off Salisbury which affirmeth that there were archbishops in Ieromes time But it is to obserued that that assertion off the bishop proceded off mistaking Ierome and some ouersight Which is cleare by that in an other place the bishop auowcheth owt off Ierome â—o Nepotian archbishops where there is no mention off Archbishop in any sort And althowghe the place which the bishop vouchethe be in the Epistle vnto Rusticus yet there is no mention off an Archbishop as I haue before declared This assertion therfore can not helpe the D. which hathe no better grounde His laste proofe is Erasmus who saith that metropolitans haue some dignitie aboue other bishops an other of Hardinges bucklers againste the bishop in the same place Where yt is manifest that Erasmus kepte his oulde coustome off carying fire in the one hande and water to quenche yt in the other and tempered the truthe with some leuaine off the corruption off those times therby to procure saftie vnto him and to his bookes whilest those which coulde not abide to looke vpon the truthe barefaced might at the leaste beare yt being muffled Yf the Ans will make his owtecries that I discredite the autor when I can not answer them beside that I discredite not moe then he I referre me vnto the conscience off all men whether yt be true which I haue saide And yet doo I not saie the tenthe parte off that which I coulde alledge written off him by men off excellent learning and zeale But let yt be considered how bothe corruptly contrary to the minde off Ierome and vnconstantly contrarie to that him selfe hath written off this place he hath blinded thes together For if it be trw that he hath said that Ieromes meaning is that the bishop off Rome differeth from other bishops onelie in riches then it is manifeste that in autoritie he differeth not from the bishop off Eugubium a small towne in the same prouince And where he saith that Ierome in making the bishop off a
althowgh yt be not expressed yt may partly appeare by that disputation vppon 20 Math. for if all the Apostels were lefte of our Sauiour Christe in equall autoritiâ— â–ª ether Peter tooke that vppon him withowt callinge or els he receiued yt off the Apostels But the firste is confessed vntrw therfore yt hath grounde off the word off God that Saint Peter was chosen off the Apostels vnto the presidentship in those actions And as yt hath bene shewed owte off S. Mathew 20. that none off them was higher then other so off S. Peter yt appeareth particularly in that he and S. Iohn were sent by the colledge of the Apostels wheras if he had bene made cheife by our Sauiour and that from the ascention vnto his dying daie yt had not bene lawfull for the Apostels by making him their Embassadour to haue made him inferior to the resâ—dâ—w I know what the Papistes answer in this poincte but the D. bancke being discouered I thincke he will chaunge his creditors Where he saith yt is contrary to scripture because S. Peter 2. Act. so soudenly defended the Apostels againste the accusation off dronkennes as he coulde not tary for their voices it is ridiculous For I would know first what testimonie of scripture he hath to proue yt doon so soudenly Then who is so sensles as not to vnderstand that the eleuen standing with him could not in a trice ether by voice or finger lifted vp caste that charge off speaking then vpon Peter so that onles he did as it were take the Iewes wordes owte off their mouth no time could wante for that matter He saith further Act. the 1 and 15. considered yt shal appeare allwaies Peters office to speake firste and rule the action and that he was at no time chosen therto by voices much les at euery particular meeting which first is a grosse petition off that in question Then if wee were not hable to shewe by the worde that our S. Christe did not apoincte Peter cheife off the reste yet by what ether sentence or worde owte off the scripture is he hable to shewe that he was appoincted gouernour by him ouer all the reste during his liffe Thirdly to leaue Actes 15. disorderly alledged which is to be handled in the very nexte diuision let him shew vs how he can proue that S. Peter was cheif in that actioÌ„ of praier where yt ys said that all the Apostles lifted vp their voice likewise in the election of the deacons where the calling together off the disciples the exhortacion vnto them the praier for the Deacons chosen the laying on off handes is as indifferently giuen to all the reaste as to Peter All know that one conceiued the praier in the name off the reste that one was president in the election But that that was Peter more then ether Iohn or Iames or any the reste can not be shewed by one title off scripture yet our D. doth assure vs and as he saith owt off the scripture that Peter was the lodesman Where I shew that to suppose Peter not chosen by the Apostels to take vpoÌ„ him the gouernmeÌ„t is to doo him iniury he answereth he was appointed vnto yt off God and lawfully As if to be appointed off God and lawfully could not stand with the Apostels chusing of him or their electioÌ„ were not the electioÌ„ of god For if he meane he was chosen to yt by Christe imÌ„ediatly it is that in question wherof he bringeth not a lettre of proofe But this iudgemeÌ„t offmine hath no ground off scripture or ether learned or auncient autoritie What ground off scripture I haue let the reader iudge off that already and to be alledged in the next diuis For autoritie I haue shewed that Musculus whom he hath made his pillor in this behalfe affirming that Peter vvas in many places the cheife is againste him which saith he was alwaies cheife and for me as giuing therby to vnderstand that this cheiftie varied and was sometimes put vpon other Which is also confirmed by Caluin who in saying the Apostels gaue this vnto Peter for the moste parte that he should speake firste confirmeth both that he had his preheminence off the Apostels and that he had yt not alwaies Secondly I haue here alledged the Scoliaste that all vvas doone by commen consente Wherto he answereth he saith not Peter was at euery assembly chosen cheife which is vaine For if all were doone with consente then Peters forespeaking a parte of that which was done was likewise What wil he say to Gratian his good expounder which in this cause is more fauorable then the Papistes he hath folowed which fetch Peters cheifdome from our Sau. Christe for he confesseth that Peter vvas chosen by the Apostles Wher owte off the scoliaste I shewed that this presidentship off Peter vvas not doone imperiously vvith dominion or povvre he answereth no lawfull iurisdiction not of the king him selfe is so Which smelleth off Anabaptistrie and is before confuted For if the vvorde imperiously vvhich I vsed be taken often in euill parte yet may not I beseche yow a Prince doe princelike vvhich is the vvorde the Scoliast vseth may not the higher power doo thinges vvith powre both vvhich the Scoliaste denieth to haue bene done of Peter But there is in superioritie humilitie If you meane that Princes muste be humbly minded I graunte but yf you meane that humilitie in Princes will not suffer to commaund Princelike in thinges lawfull I denie yt He addeth that in rule and autoritie meaning ciuill there is seruitude If he meane to the lorde I graunte and then yt is nothing to the pourpose If that Kinges are seruantes vnto their peoples which onely can haue place here I denie yt for the cause before assigned Where wee see againe how the D. as if he led Princes in a stringe maketh them to beare vp my Lorde Archbishops traine For seing he seeth yt denied him to rule princelike or with powre for shifte off answer he wresteth the scepter owte of their hand saying the king him selfe may not doe so yf the Scoliast had said that Peter did nothing tyrannically nothing with oppression which two are aswel denied vnto Princes as to bishops then the D. answer would haue serued But when he saith he did nothing princelike nothing by povvr yt is manifest he tawght that the rule lawfull in Princes ouer their subiectes was not meete for Peter ouer the other Apostels Where he addeth the Scoliaste saith Peter rose c. as one that had receiued the Presidentship of the Apostels to let pas his translation which in steed off disciples vnderstanded of all the church hath put Apostles which was peculier then to the 11. he doth but daly For I deny not that Peter had receiued yt but that he had yt giuen off our Sau. Christe immediatly or during his liffe both which are in controuesie there is not a worde Where in the entrance
off this diuis he saith Peter was in all such assemblies the cheife and in an other place he was the cheife in euery matter and for proufe saith the moste off the old ecclesasticall writers in that respecte counte him cheife of the Apostels yt had bene good he had shewed at the leaste one I cōfesse that there are ould writers which call him so but that they doo yt in that respecte I denie for the cheifty they giue him ouer the reste was for his singular zeale and other giftes not as he saith for that he had autoritie ouer them For proofe wherof I will propound him firste that Peter was Prince of the Apostels as Plato was of the Philosophers likewise that he was Prince off the Apostels as Moses Helias Dauid Isay off the Prophetes Now if Plato were ruler or had the commaundement off other Philosophers or if Moses of the Prophetes that cam after his death then Peter also might haue the same ouer the Apostels but if they be therfore so called because they excelled the reste in giftes then yt is cleare that thes fathers estemed not Peter chiefe for any powre or autorny ouer the reste An other saith Peter vvas that the reste off the Apostels vvere off like not office onely but honour and povvre directly contrary to D. vvhere he preferreth Peter in honour and contrary to that he both here and pag. 68. althowghe not in the same in wordes yet indeed doth affirme Thirdly it is to be noted that heere the D. hande is againe with Harding againste the bishop to whom alledging that Peter had powre ouer the reste off the Apostels the bishop answereth Peter vvas chiefe off the APostels as Aristippus is called chiefe off Philosophers that is the firste or beste man off the company where he denieth that S. Peter was ether lord or Prince or had povvre or vvas gouernour ouer the reste off thapostels He addeth from this opinion that Peter in all such assemblies and in all matters moderated the reste was chiefe and spake first the late writers dissent not If he meane the Papistes I graunt if the Catholike he bringeth not nor as I thincke can bring so much as one which saith so Here he hath the bishop againste him to whom may be added Caluin Bullinger Beza Gualter with others Wher I shew that Iames ruled the action Act. 15. and not Peter considering that he pronounced the sentence vvherunto the rest agreed he saith first that Peter spake before the reste which is vntrew for there was great disputacion off both sides before Peter spake ▪ therfore yt muste needes be that the cawse was propounded by some before And so yt is friuolous he alledgeth owt off Caluin to proue Peter proloquutor for that he stoode vpon this especially that he mighte declare thestate of the question as yf the Apostels Synode were so confused that a great parte of it was spente or euer the company were informed of the state off the question Wheras Caluin meaneth that S. Peter confirmed pithely the trwth in that question and not that he trauailed to shew wherin the question consisted as appeareth by Peters whole oration So that Saint Peters oration is firste set downe not for that he spake firste but for that he was the first amongeste the Apostels and Elders which S. Luke thowght good to commit to writing It is also childish that Peter was moderator because he spake after there was great disputacion as if euery one which cometh betwene two parties striuing to draw thē to concord hath autoritie ouer them considering that ther is not a worde in Peters oration which giueth the least ynckling off suche autoritie beside that to helpe him selfe he shamfully slaundreth the Apostels Synode attributing vnto yt a tumult and bitter contention where S. Luke saith onely greate disputacion which may well be withowt both Whether yt be custome off Synodes for the moderator to speake laste and so to ponounce the sentence gathered vpon the former voices I leaue yt to the iudgement off the reader referring him also to that the bishop writeth in this behalfe who proueth against Harding which will haue Peter cheife that Iames vvas chief because he gaue the definitiue sentence Wherby also appeareth that this came ether from Pigghius or Harding or from some suche popishe fen After admiting Iames Moderator he faithe being then bishop by the Scoliastes iudgement yt was not vnmeete he should be moderator within his charge I haue shewed that an Apostle can not be changed into a bishop and if he coulde yet yt was vnmeete that S Peter should leefe his right wherto he saith he was ordeined off God to vse from thascention vnto his dying day Therfore it is against him directlie but how against me he nether doth nor cā shew Beside it is absurde that an Apostle shoulde giue place vnto a bishop because the bishop is in his charge considering that an Apostle is in his charge in what churche soeuer he come and that as an Apostle to whom the bishop vnlesse he were by consent chosen to gouerne the synode owght to giue place And if yt be trew that it is meete the bishop of the place where the synode is houlden should gouerne the synode why hath he made this before a necessarie cause off hauing an archbishop to gouerne Synodes The other place off the Actes makethe for this matter For if Iames assembled the lders and ruled that meeting wherin it was determined what S. Paule should doo him selfe being present which was as shall appere in nothing inferior vnto Peter he might by the same right moderate the assemblie in Peters presence Where I shew that this is the superioritie which is amōgest bishops and ministers he answereth yt is so but not all But owt of the scripture wheroff the question is here he neither doth nor can shew other superioritie so that here his cause faleth flat Wher I alledged Maister Caluin that one off the Apostles indefinitelie not any one singular person had the moderation off the rest he answereth owt off him that it vvould not be absurde if vve confesse that the Apostels gaue preheminence vnto Peter Which is but daliaunce For he affirmeth simply that our Sauiour Christ meant nothing lesse then to make Peter cheife off the reste off the Apostels Here Hauing proued that Peter vvas nothing els but one of the tvvelue that he vvas equall vnto them their fellowe not their lord that they had as muche povver ouer him as he ouer them he disputeth that if it were graunted which the Papistes require off Peters being Prince off the Apostles which he vtterlie deniethe yet yt followethe not which they would conclude off a Pope Likewise he daliethe in shewing what autoritie the Consull off Rome and masters of Colledges haue adding that tharchbishop is content with lesse Where Caluin compareth the moderator in the ministers meeting with the
this testimonie of Epiphanius And further saith of Wickleue that therfore he tooke away the difference betwene bishop and elder because he could not obteine the bishoprick of Worcester and in an other booke inueigheth sharplie against them for that they would haue neither Pope nor primate nor Archbishop nor Bishop And that yt may yet appeare euen to the simple reader that they had the same cause against Pigghius and the Papistes which we against the D. I offer to his consideration besides the two flat testimonies of M Barnes aÌ„d Hooper before cyted M. Wickleues tenthe article in thes wordes Ther be 12 disciples of Antichrist Popes Cardinalles Patriarckes Archbishopes Bishops Archedeacons Officials Deanes Monkes Chanons Fryers and Pardoners If the D. say that Wickleue spake that not off the offices but off their abuse in popery that shift will not serue coÌ„sidering that he leaueth owt priestes and Deacons Wherof the priest especially doing more mischeife then diuerse which are reckened yet because he occupied the place off the pastor in euery congregacion which was the ordinance off God and was onely a deprauacion and deformitie off the trew ministerie he spareth him the other because they were deuised partlie herbingers to prepare his way partly purucâ—ers to interteine his estate he marked with the black cole off Antichristianitie Yf yt be further said that Wickleue should by this meanes condemne the estate off a bishop vvhich S. Paule alloweth off yt is manifest that he bet against the lord bishop which ruleth ouer other ministers in adiocese coÌ„sidering that he leaueth the priest the deformitie of the teaching minister which minister is all one as hath bene shewed with S. Paules Bishop Beside this reason they may as well saye he spake not against the office off Pope Chanons Monkes Friars Pardoners but onely against the abuse which is absurde This to the learned may better appeare by Pigghius discourse which confesseth that the Waldenses and Wickleue left the ordeâ— off priesthode as they call yt and that the whole question betwene them was not whether lord bishops and Archbishops did their dutie but whether they were lawfull estates Wherby appearethe that whosoeuer was the D. marchant these wares come from one off the filthiest puddels off popery and withall that as sone almost as there was any set and apparant estate of the churche which proclaimed open warre against Antichrist the letters off defiaunce were as well sent against the Archbishop and longehanded bishop as against the Pope Luther also after them writethe thus Bishops vvhersoeuer they be in all the vvorlde are equall to our bishops or parishe ministers and preachers of none caÌ„ yt be said one is lord an other a seruant they are off the same iudgement and vvhatsoeuer belongethe to the churche equally belongeth to all except that vvhich Paule teacheth some preacher or Christian may be off a sounder faith then other haue greater giftes then another interprete the scripture better then an other rule better then an other preache better and haue the discretion off spirites more then an other c. hovvbeit suche giftes cause no inequalitie or lordship in the church Here I will also set downe the iudgement off the reformed churches in Heluetia Zurich Berne Geneua Polonia Hungery Scotland c. who hauing reckened the ministries specified in scriptures add in the times follovving ther vvere many other titles off ministers brovvght into the churche For some vvere ordeined Patriarckes some Archbishops other Suffraganes also metropolitanes Archelders c. but for all those vve passe not ether vvhat they vvere in times past or are novv the Apostels doctrine of the ministers is sufficient for vs. Yf all these churches make no accounte off these offices not onely as they are now but when they were at the best if they esteme them withowt the doctrine of the Apostles I leaue to the readers iudgement what estimacion they had off them and how the D. woulde abuse vs that drawethe the sentences of the cheif in this coÌ„fession to proue their conuenieÌ„ce Neither do I dowbt but that our Archebishops and Bishops refusing to ioyne with the rest off the churches in this confession did it because they could not digest this morsell especiall Now to come to the D. that saith Epiphanius calleth vs heretickes which pinchethe vs. master Wickleue and the pore Waldenses bare yt at Pigghius hand we must do yt at the D. in dede so muche more pinching as yt commethe from him from whom yt least owght But what remedy the Lord will looke to it in time Howbeit because this arrow is as yt is said of Epiphanius a man subiecte to error shot owt off Pigghius bow one giuen vpp to error hauing no heade off the worde of God to make yt enter yt may peraduenture raise the skin but wounde yt can not make But Augustine reckenethe yt so but Augustine reporteth what he found written for towching his owne iudgement he is flat against Epiphanius which maketh a bishop aÌ„d an elder differ by the Apostels institution wheras Augustin as I haue shewed teacheth euen as Ierome that this difference was not by the word of God but by custome now I would know of the D. how Augustin can houlde that for an heresie which to leaue the rest can not be conuinced by the word off God but onely by a custome off the churche And here first he must either let goe his hould of Ierome or this of Epiphanius For if yt be trw that Epiphanius houldeth that a bishop and an elder differ by the Apostels institution then it is false which Ierome and others hould that they were all one at the first and that the difference came by custome Contrariwise if Ierome in that point say true as in dede he dothe then Epiphanius authoritie falleth Secondly yf the D. will preiudice this cause for that Epiphanius a Catholike thowght them to differ by the word off God where Aerius an heretike thowght them all one or els in that Augustin reckeneth that amongest his heresies by the same reason he must preiudice this trwthe that we owght not to praie or make any oblation for the dead For both Epiphan estemed him an heretike for his iudgement in that behalfe and Augustin reporteth this as one off his heresies which is catholike doctrine So that Pigghius might vse this autoritie better which condemnethe as well the one as the other then the D. which houldethe as I thincke for Catholike that which Aerius the hereticke affirmed and for hereticall which Epiphanius the Catholike condemned The flower off Epiphanius reasons browght before is answered now the D. distressed bringeth forth tag aÌ„d rag for towching Epiphanius saying the bishop by imposition off handes begetteth fathers 1. teachers to the churche vvhere the priestes begate onely sonnes yt is but asking off that in question when Aerius holding them both one by Gods institution the imposition off handes belonging vnto the bishop muste
the lord hath giuen The Prince with his power the minister with his conforte and instruction the priuate man with the wealthe God hath blessed him withe at the least with his praier the communion off sainctes and fellowfeeling in the members off one bodie requiring this Hereoff we haue example in Aurelius which saith he had care off all churches Bouins a Popishe friar or Monke I well remembre not whether tawght in this point in the same schole with the D. in esteming that care off churches implied rule least the bishop off Rome should be hurte by that speache expoundeth all churches all in Affricke Our D. h alledging this place because in taking care in his sence for rule with authoritie he should in trauailing with the Archbishop haue browght vs forth a Pope in steede off all churches putteth many churches so that he wil neuer want for if his places be to streite for his Archbishops measure he settethe them vpon the teinter hookes if to wide he laiethe them in water and shrinkethe them But what shoulde I stand in confuting this seing yt is so farr off that care prouethe rule and dominion that it is sene not onely in one equall ouer an other but euen in seruantes ouer their masters As for that that is said Chrysostomes care restreined here to certeine places can not be vnderstanded off suche a generall care as comprehendeth all churches I answer that the care off his owne churche being properly commended vnto him it is mete that as the churches next doo most affecte his bettering it commonly yf they be good making yt worse if they be nawght so in that generall care ouer the rest ther should be suche dispensation as to haue a greater care ouer those then ouer the rest as we see in wise Princes more carefull off the borderers then off those further remoued from them In which degre yt is not vnproperlie spoken that he had the care off suche churches rather then off all His foure notes owt off Theodoret depend vpon these wodes the same care so that yf yt fall owt that Chrysostome had not the same rule ouer Thracia Asia c. which he had ouer Constantinople then those wordes spoken off the gouernement he had in that citie are idle to proue the same in Thracia c. But first the D. crieth owt of corruption crafte and either ignorance or malice good wordes Maister D. I pray yow For ignorance yt is no greate matter I am content yow say that I borowed two greeke wordes off my neighbours But why corruption c did I not set downe wordes sufficient to confute your vntrew dealing which in stede of care put downe rule was I bownd to set downe more in greke then yow surmised in Englishe yea could I haue set downe the worde yow require with any sence vnto the reader vnles I had set downe as yow now the whole story and so haue giuen your cause greater coulour then your selfe knew of then I helpe yow diuerse times with argumentes which yow make much of but will yow binde me to do so alwaies I haue more coulour to crie out of yow which to proue Chrysostome gouernour of these places voluntarily cite Socrates trippinglie vvinding vp in thes wordes et caetera vvhich is your ruine and which manifestly confuteth the largenes yow suppose off the bishop off Consiantinoples metropolitaneship Therfore seing this bitternes must be vented yow at least should haue waited some better opportunitie now let vs see vvhether these wordes he had the same care ouer Thracia c that he had ouer the churche off Constantinople vvill intitle Chrisostome lawfully to as great authoritie ouer one as ouer the other For the discussing vvheroff I must by thy good leaue gentle reader fetche this matter somewhat higher The Councell off Nice bounding and butting the metropolitaneships decreed that the bishop of Constantinople vvhich it calleth the greate citie should be metropolitane ouer Thracia certeine other ouer Pontus others ouer Asia to the nombre off ten metropolitaneships This order was confirmed by other councels off Constantinople and Ephesus as they are obserued and continued vntill the councell off Calcedon vvhich moste confusedly and disorderedly throwghe extreme Ambition off the bishop off Constantinople drowned almoste all these ten in his one onlie sea Where also yt was ordeined by the same Councell of Nice that the Metropolitanes shoulde be off equall power and not one vnder an other this Councel made one Metropolitane ouer a nombre Where further it was ordeined by diuerse Councells as hath partely before and partely may appeare by c Theodoret that the Metropolitane off euerye Prouince shoulde be chosen by the bishops theroff this Councell maketh the bishop of Constantinople to haue the appointement off all metropolitaneships within the compas alledged by the D. Moreouer where the same Nicene Councell with sundrie others ordeined that the bishops of the Prouince at the least three should be at the ordinacion off euerie bishop this Councell giue the yt in the bishops off the Barbarians meaning as I suppose Scithians vnto him off Constantinople Now if the D. will make Chrysostome accessary vnto this famous robberie if giltie off all this confusion and disorder off the breache off so many Canons off the Nicene and other Councels and finally if he will make him a Pope he dothe him that iniurie which I would be lothe For where vnto me alledging that if he vvere Archbishop off all thes churches he vvas off moe then euer the Pope in his greatest pride he answereth that I am greatly deceiued for that Phocas the Emperour made all these churches and all other subiecte to the Pope and appointed him head off all I answere that he is greatly deceiued Considering that the Empire being deuided into the east and weast Empire more then 250. yeares before Phocas made Boniface the third Pope Phocas coulde not hauing his Empire for the most part in the easte where the churches were most ruined make all or halfe the churches subiecte vnto Boniface So that yt ys manifest that Chrysostome by his saying metropolitane off all Asia and a good parte off Europe must needes haue moe vnder him then Pope Boniface What the Pope claimed is nothing to that I set downe which spake precisely off that he was and not off that he claimed to be Therfore if he build vpon Chrysostomes supposed metropolitaneship he doth manifestly allow a larger circuite vnto a bishop then euer any Pope had Yf I would haue sought to haue discredited Chrysostome I might haue answered that yt was no meruaile thowghe he exercised suche dominion considering that bothe Socrates and Camerarius after him which commende diuerse vertues off his affirme him to haue bene a proud man But considering that him selfe opposeth the Emperours large dominion to a bishops charge in one cytie I chose that sence which I setdowne Neither are there any wordes either in Theodoret or the Centuries
so strong to carrie the metropolitaneship ouer all these places to Chrysostome as Nazianzenes wordes before handled are to carrie the metropolitaneship off almost all the churches in the worlde vnto Cyprian For these wordes he had the same care can not be vnderstoode as the D. would that he did the same thinges in all places which he did at Constantinople For how could he teache and rebuke sin in all that circuite as there depriue and excommunicate in proper person as there so that will he nil he the wordes must haue a restreint in respecte off those before as for the greke word he translateth he gouerned which signifieth he adorned vnles he haue some singular licence i◠is for a translation especially too riotous althowghe if that were there yt drawethe no metropolitane autoritie as hathe bene shewed in Cyprians example I graunt Sozomenes are more pressing which speakethe off his deposing off the bishops in Asia and if to mainteine my former answere I would say he deposed them not by his autoritie but by his counsaile as Diophantus said off the cytie of Athenes ruled by him because Themistocles his father vvhich ruled yt vvas guided by his mother and his mother by him and therto alledge that he is called the Doctor off the vvoride by the same Theodoret when notwithstanding he coulde not be an authorised doctor off suche a compas yt would peraduenture be more then he can wel answer But if he will as he dothe make that his paterne to frame his Archbishop by he maketh vs a faicrer but to shoote at then before the archbis being made therby in authoritie off breaking canons off the best Councells by putting in and putting owte off his absolute power not infeferior vnto the pope of Rome and in compasse off dominion aboue him and a fatter Pope then he And beside that it is but trifling to fetche examples off Archbishop like gouernement fower hundrethe yeares and a halfe after Christe or there abowt where the question is off three hundrethe I haue shewed how daungerous yt is to builde vpon the examples off those times especially when euen in this pointe off broad dominion before Chrysostomes time there was an intollerable excesse in the bishop off Antioche which beside Chrysostomes compas had also all Illyricum Towching Ireneus ambassage into Phrigia the D. eye is not simple For after Euseb had shewed that there were Ambassadours sent by the frenche churches to those off Phrigia he addeth as an augmentation that they vvere also sent to the bishop off Rome After to the ende the ambassage might haue more autoritie he sheweth how Ireneus was sent being commended vnto the bishop off Rome to the end as may easely appeare that his letter also obteined with theirs the churches might be the rather moued Whether I haue followed the Scoliastes meaning towching euerie hishop hauing a seuerall congregation I referre me to that I haue before alledged The D. answer to Chrysostome which placeth the bishops charge in one citie that he dothe but shew how the Bishop ys subiecte to as many afflictions as the Emperour and that he puttethe no difference betwene the Bishop and the Emperour is but a cauill For his pourpose is to shew what are the manifold troubles that accompanie the mynistery therby to pinche those which seeke after yt and that he dothe with an argument off comparison in that being but bishop off one citie yet he is subiecte not onely to so many but to moe troubles then the Emperour which hath so large gouernement Now if bishops autority should be extended as the D. estemeth Chrysostomes who seeth not that his cōparison halteth downe right considering that there were few Emperours or rather none sithens Constantine that euer had so large dominion as this ascribed vnto Chrysostome For against this argument yt might haue bene easely replied off those which laie in waite for the ministerie that seing one was able to gouerne so many whole countreis and nations yt could not be so hard a matter to gouerne one onely citie I could not here be put to shifte seing where our question is off 300. yow fetche your proufes off 400. whether I haue said trew let the reader iudge Where I alledge the first acte off the Calcedon Councell that the bishops cried that Theodoret vvas no bishop be alledgeth the 8. acte that he was If yt be a simple answere to set one author against an other yt is muche more simple to set one autoritie at variaunce with yt selfe withowt shewing any way of reconciliatiō That the Councell did well in condēning that Theodoret appeareth for that he had writtē against Cyril euen in that Cyrill wrote against Nestorius errors in which respecte his bookes were commaunded to be burnte with those errors And this was not onely done by the Councel off Calcedon but by that also off Ephesus and Constantinople so that here are three condemnations passed against him for one absolution And that what maner off one verelie which appeareth to haue bene throwghe the fauour off the Emperour Martian For what if he reuoked his heresie there as he had I thinck done before in the Councel off Constantinople yet as I haue shewed there was no cause why he should be trusted with suche a greate charge no not in the D. iudgemēt I suppose so soudenlie and withowt further triall Which I say not to discredite his trew repentance and learned writinges but onely to shew how totteringlie the D. Archbishop is set Where I alledged that the Emperour Theodosius and Valētinian cōmaunded him to kepe him to his ovvne church onely his answere is fond that the Emperours meaning was that he should not come to the Synode For are these two all one to kepe him self to his ovvne churche onely and not to come to the Synode When he might come to the synode althowghe he kept not him selfe to his owne churche onely which he could not haue done yf they had bene all one Where he saithe yt appeareth that the Emperour gaue that charge that he should not come vnto the Synode but called yt maketh nothing to the pourpose For that may well stand with that I alledged off his keping to one churche onely And in dede there had bene small wisdome to haue forbidden him the Councell in respecte off the heresie he laboured off and yet to haue suffred him to gouerne such a mightie people When I expounded tares hipocrites I had not the booke before me but trusting therin to Theodoretes knowledge in the scripture estemed that he meant them off whom the parable is vnderstanded that is those off whose ether corruption in life or doctrine the churche can haue no certeine knowledge to procede againste or to giue as he did sentence vpon Neither is he yet purged off the suspicion considering that yt can hardly be belieued that ther was not in 800. churches one onely heretike And if ther were
word and to hould cōmon consultation that therfore he estemed the whole dioces off London or Prouince off Canterbury where there are many thowsand parishes might conueniently grow into one particular bodie to be gouerned off one Pastor Truly this is but kolde reasoning Where I charged him with vnfaithefull dealing for leauing ovvt that vvvich Caluin noteth that the office off Archbis and Patriarck vvas rarely vsed to couer his vnfaithfullnes he alledgeth the later edition which hathe not that sentence Which is partly answered before but ad this also that euen the noted booke which he followed had thus muche off that sentence Althovvghe it may not be passed by in this disputation There wanted onely this it vvas very rarely vsed and that throwghe the printers fault considering that withowt yt there is no sence nor knot with that before or after Therfore if there had bene any loue of the trwthe in hym meeting with suche a gap he would haue sowght to haue made yt vpp in the later edition His shift Calu referrethe that to the patriarcke and not to the Archbishop because ther was smale cause off exercising his authoritie is onely said and in deede cōtrary to thanthors wordes ād meaning Wordes for that giuing that note off his disputation there which is bothe off the Archbishop and Patriarke yt muste follow by all likelihoode that the note also is of them bothe Against his meaning manifestly for he placing both their offices in propounding matters vnto the Synodes which for their hardnes could not be ended of few and gyuing them nothing to doo more then their fellowes but that it muste follow that the oftenest Synodes wherin the archbishop was president being rare and but twise a yeare his office also was off very rare vse Wherby appeareth that Caluins minde was to shew that the archbishops and Patriarches office endured onely but the time off the Synode which ended he had no autoritie but in commen with other bishops vntill the next synode So that althowgh they were not chosen at euery action yet Caluins iudgement standeth that both those offices were but off rare vse The D. onely trifleth in Hemingius For we affirme degrees off ministrie off the word graunt also that there were Patriarches but denie them to haue bene immediatly after the Apostles which Hemingius doth not as he vntruly saith affirme That that church abolishing the Patriarch and Archbishop kept the distinction betwene the bishop an other ministers off the word which the church browght in is confessed but that it owght not so to be is before declared althowgh the bishops there in respect off the height off ours are but dwarfes His answer to that Hemingius saith that S. Luke 22. putteth a difference betvvene the office off a Magistrat and ministers and that dominion is altogether takē avvay from these is very fonde His reason owt off the Hebr. is before answered so that his vnfaithfull dealing in Hemingius remaineth Yf there be no circunstance in M Fox alledged by the D. which gyue further answer I stand to that before made and refer it to the readers iudgement especially seing to that alledged where M. Fox flatly condemneth the degrees off primates metropolitanes and archbishops as ambicious the D. can not answer In saying he vvent about to corrupt him vvith his praise I doo M. Fox no iniurie yt being no fault to be assaulted but to be ouercome Whether I doo the D. any let the reader iudge The maintenance of the reply to the Bishop off Salisb answer towching certein Articles against the D. Chap. 4. Diuis 1. pag. 422. THat the Bishop is directly against the D. in affirming that there be no Apostles Euangelistes or Prophetes ys manifest his shift wherewith he would accord him self with the bishop is is before bewraied That the taking away off the Apostels Prophetes and Euangelistes hindreth not the perfect nomber off preaching ministers hath bene declared beside that yt is grosse to say that the diuision is not perfect because certein partes of it are not now extant as if the law of deuiding extended not it self to thinges both past and to come He that parteth the church into that before and vnder the Gospell doth he therfore make an euill particion because there is now no church before the Gospell that is vnder or before the law Here the D. leaueth the bishop to his owne defense towching that he affirmed a bishop not conteined in the place to the Ephes The diuision there being giuen as hath beue saied off those ministers onely vvhich vvith gouernement handle the vvord both here and in the fift diuision the D. doth but trifle in the examples off the elder and deacon seing we hould and will God willing shewe them not to haue to doo with the word Wher hereuppon he woulde bring in his archbishop and archdeacon yt is but repetition off that before where he hath āswer Yf there be a preaching elder not cōteined vnder a Pastor seing he maketh a Pastor and Doctor all one onles he fly to his phansie off Apostles c. there is by his saying a preaching ministerie not tawght in the scripture If there be let him shew it Where I gaue the Catechising vnto the Pastor I will haue it ment where there is no Doctor otherwise I haue in the second edition amended that assigning yt as more proper to the D. So that the Doctor being instituted to the Ephes he whom they called Catechist which tawght the groundes off religion ys likewise albeit S. Pa. calleth al māner of preaching Cathechising That publike reading in the church is as solēne a matter as Catechising the youth is a peece off the former phrensie reading is as good as preaching already confuted That a reader hath bene counted necessarie is saied withowt proof and if it were it was falsly counted there being no necessarie ministrie not specified in the scripture And when they were first notwithstanding them the church ministrie was as hath bene shewed deuided into bishops elders and deacons so that they came not then so much as into account of the ministries Yf they be conuenient at any time that there is scripture to warrant them euen as the Sexten that kept the church dore key hath bene shewed That the archbishops archdeacons and our bishops haue no succour by this being supposed the principalest ministeries and therfore such as owght to haue bene commaunded hath bene likewise disputed where thes colewortes are answered That the Deaconship as I take yt is no gouernement but a simple seruice is idly alledged cōtrary to nothing here set downe Yt may seeme against that alledged before where I comprehend it under the ministers which gouerne onely which I did not to set it in the same kinde off gouernement with the elders but for that yt ordering the church money and ouerseing the poore might in a generall signification be so called If the D. can
councell as appeareth by his precise denying off it to be in that canon vvhere otherwise he would haue saied in that Councell it appeareth that he vseth lesse synceritie in thes holy matters then the Heathen â—n their prophane For Alexander counseilled to set vpon Darius in the night answered that he vvould not steale the victorie but the D. concealeth from his reader euen that which he knew my answer must needes discouer Where he saith our metropolitan calleth Synodes althowgh not prouinciall and propoundeth the matters first is nothing to the purpose for calling onely diocesan Synodes he doth nothing which a simple bishop may not aswell as he â–ª and therfore no cause vvhy there should be an archbishop in this respect Secondly all know that those Synodes he speaketh off are houlden for the moste pate by deputies at his appointement So that vvhich the D. vtterly condemneth in the Discipline vve propounde touching the chusing off a president euery Synod is doen here and that at the plrasure off one man not by consente off the mynisters yea by appointement off one for the moste parte no Ecclesiasticall person in matters perteining to the ministrie Thirdly I would know by what right the archbishop may call his diocesan Synodes â–ª yf by Ecclesiasticall then vvhy not also the Prouinciall considering that they are of one kinde ether both Ecclesiasticall or both cyuill Yf he do yt by ciuill autoritie vvhy doth he not aswel vvaite for the magistrates commandement in one as in the other He saith the archishops office consisting in sondry other thinges besides calling Synodes propounding matters ouerseing the limites owght not to ceasse althowgh he doo none off these Yt being manifeste that these were the cheife cawses vnder pretence wheroff he was browght in and especially to thend that controuersies and contentions amongest the mynistrie by Synodes called and ordered by him might he ended yt must follow that if wee may spare him for these we may easely be with owt him for the rest and so this is not for the amendement but for the ouerthrow off his surisoiction Because wee agree in the matter and I haue before shewed that the metropolitanes were appointed to ouersee that none passed his boundes I omit the iniury he dothe in supposing that I send him to the ninth Canon for that matter when as the word there by all indifferency owght rather to be referred to the councell in the text then to the canon in the margent Where I say that this ouersight off limites may be withowt an archbishop he sayth yt may be beste by him whereoff let the reader vpon the former allegations off both Sydes iudge where he affirmeth yt no good argument againste the archbishop that he doth not kepe the olde Canons owt off vse with vs seing our archbishop houldeth off those in times past and hath for his cheifest defense that there where archbishops in times paste all see if there be not the same causes off them now that were then how at the least this hould is throwne downe Where I shew that our archbishop in giuing licences to preach in a dousen dioceses at the leaste breaketh the same order for the keping vvheroff he vvas ordeined he answereth yt is profitable Where beside the vntruth before shewed he condemneth that order off the Councell off Constantinople that decreed against that wandring and ouerthroweth one off the cawses wheruppon the metropolitans office standeth That parte off the difference of the metropolitan from other bishops rose off the commoditie off the citie and for that yt vvas honoured vvith the Emperours courte is manifest by the encrease and decrease lifting vp and throwing downe off the authoritie off the Patriarch all seates That the Emperour might make the metropolitan seate which he would I well vnderstood seing I set it downe before but the question to where yt is meetest the Archbishop should be if there must be one And my reason was forsomuche as the place moste fyttest hath well and happely wanted him therfore our churche may be well without him His trifling in the two translations argueth that to fill vp he careth not if his reader peele strawes for nothing â—ether off them is againste that I setdowne The cauil against my order becawse I come from the councel of Antioche backe to Cyprian is too simple For yt is not as his for one matter but for diuers beside that I reprehended him for that yt skilleth much to obserue the order off times when question was off the time and antiquitie of tharchbishop Whether Cyprians wordes do flatly forbid any one bishop to haue autoritie ouer an other muche les ouer all I leaue yt be iudged off that before likewise how honeste an exception yt is againste this sentence that yt was spoken in a Councell where an error was decreed also in what sense I called Cyprian metropolitan further how vntrwe yt is that he which denieth the autoritie of one bishop ouer an other exempteth the ministers either from cyuill or ecclesiasticall subiection or punishement Lastly what a cauil yt is that when the correction of the disorders in the ministrie is gyuen to the cyuill magistrat the prince therby is ouercharged Now if the reader finde vpon the discourse before that the churche well gouerned in Cyprians time had no archbishop nor metrapolitane that had autoritie ouer others when there was moste neede considering there was then no christian bishops Then yt is manifeste that there is now les cawse when wee haue a Christian magistrate which alledged here by me the D. him selfe althowgh he had good will to bite at durst not come neere His cauill that I alledged this canon falsely attributed vnto the Apostels is answered beside that I shew that yt being falsely assigned to them is notwithstanding the true canon off the Councell off Antioche The Canon is as I haue alledged nothing nether added nor diminished which might disaduaÌ„tage the D. cause any â—ote whether the bishop according to that canon may doo that which apperteineth vnto his owne parish without the archbishop whether the archishop taketh matters owt off their handes concludeth them not making the bishops prime contrary to the tenure off that canon which the D. denieth I leaue to the readers iudgement his especially which hath seene the marchandise and trafique off his courtes And it may partly appeare by the boke off the 7â— archbishops where Canterbury is made the head off all our churches all bishops svvorne to canonicall obedience off that archbishop and defense off all Priuiledges and liberties of that seate â–ª Where the bishop off London is his deane to cal synodes to publishe his decrees to make retourne off th execution VVinchester his Chauncelour Lincolne his vice chancelour Salisburie his chanter VVorcester his chaplaine Rochester his cros bearer when that bagage was Wher his autoritie is said to haue no certeine boundes but almost as
force off this worde prescribed were not more then contemed and asmuche as his particularly expressed But I haue shewed that he requireth also that al church officers be expressed in the worde and what expressed meaneth is before obserued The reader to make vp his mouth with aÌ„d as yt were for a ban quetting dish hathe the next whole chapter off repetitions which ys answered and so is the nexte vnto yt Thus we are by the grace off god come to an ende off this treatise wherin let the reader iudge whether yt hathe bene proued that the offices off archbishops and archdeacons be vnlawfull that they came not into the church 300. yeares after the ascension off our Sa. Christe that there names are likewise vnlawfull by the worde forbiddeÌ„ by auncient councels not to be founde in any auncient writing before 400. yeares approched Further whether that euery congregation owght to haue a bishop that one onely may haue two or moe that they owght all to haue like titles and autoritie Sauing that in their meetings for orders sake one by consent of the rest gouerneth that action in suche sorte as is declared That all these pointes off the bishop haue grounde off the word off God and moste off theÌ„ shewed to haue remained some time after thapostels and the traces loÌ„ge after Finally whether that euen the elder Bishops when they were declined from the synceritie off gods ordinance and the archbishops and archdeacons which he neuer ordeined were much more tollerable then ours as those whose autority was without comparison les and pompe none at all Esr 6. 15. Neh. 2. â— a Esr 4. 12 Neh. 6. 1. b Neh. 6. 10. 17. 18. 19. c Esr 4. 12 c. Neh. 2. 19. d Lib. de haeres nost tep e l. 2. de legit iudic reruÌ„ eccl. f lib. 5. de cathol eccles a M. Cap i to vnto M. Farel in the boke off M. Cal. Epist b Vpon 4. Ephes c In the life off M. Calu. d pa 299. 27. line pag. 459. 47. lin item pa. 560. lin 5. item pa. 646. li. 29. c. Calu. in his praeface to the psames Act. 22. 20 Iob 31. 35 36. pag. 33. pag. 55. pag. 33. pag. 33. pag. 354. pa. 12. 34. 20. Act. 27. August 2. lib. Serm. de moÌ„te Sozom. 6. lib. 20 c. Cicero â— li. de nat deorum Pag 25. pag. 799. pag. 709. Pag. 586. Pag. 48. Pag. 781. a pag. 12. pag. 446. b In this boke pa. 154. li. 16. c pa. 225. d pa. 354. pag. 173. p. 241. 283 a pag. 207 b pa. 412. c pag. 123. d pa. 1. 9. e pa. 423. pa. 4. 8. 9 12. pag. 1. 20. c. pag. 707. In orat pro Muraena pag. 16. a Arist in his Rhetorick ad Theodecten a Herâ—clitus b Act. 23. 5 1. Cor. 4. 10. 2. Cor. 11. 19. 12. 13. c August 15. l. coÌ„tra Faust Manich c. 4. pag. 156 Exo. 18. 25 Deut. 1. 15 pag. 157. pag. 198. off this boke Decad 5. serm 4. Psal 69. 4. Psal 35. 11 pa. 10. 14. 118. 171. 195. pag. 2. 16. 27. 72. 89. 280. 593. 656. pag 16. pag. 20â— Genes 25. 22. In M. Cal. Epistles Nomb. 13 28. c. Genes 25. 23. Nehem. 3 Neh. 2. 5. pag. 40â— 1. 2 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 14. 15. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 17. 13. 14. 15. 16. 18. 19. 20. 21. 22. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. 28. 29. 30. 31. 32. 33. 34. 35. 36. 37. 10. Esâ—â— â–ª Esay 60. 12. 1. Reg. 15. Act. 10. Cyp. lib. 2. epist. 3. 23 Leui. Iam. 2. 5. Act. 17. Schelomo Iarchi Esra 8. ca 15 vers 2. Tim. 3. 1 epist. 4. Rom. 3. vpon the 86. Psal Epist 18. epist. 48. Against Maxim. â— the Arrian 3. 14. chap. De vnitate ecclesiae cap. 3. Contr Iulian PelagiannÌ„ lib. prim lib. de natur grat Ier. 3. To praefat in Iob. Ioâ—â—â—â— â–ª Iohn 6. 66. Ier. 3. To praefat in Iob. Num. 11. 25. Act. 15. Iohn 10. 24. Iud. 5. 10. Mala. 2. 3. Phil. 3. 8. Lib. 3. c. 4 1. Cor. 11. ca. 18. 19. Mat. 1 â–ª Ephes 4. 13. Coloss 3. 10. Acta Ratilboncusia Quà m ipsaruÌ„ scripturaruÌ„ verbis expressa ipsis tamen scripturae verbis implicida 9. Iosuah 14. Deut. 20. 1. Sam. 21. 2. Iosue 1. Reg. 9 2. Sam. 7. 7. 1. Chron. 17. 6. In the 29. diuisioÌ„ of the first Article In the defence off the Apologie 5. parte ca. 15. diuision 1. 6. Rom. 8. Rom. 1. Cor. 3. 12. Col. 3. 19. 2 Pet. 2. 1. Math. 26. â—3 35. 2. Proue 12. 5. 1. Cor 10. 1. Tim. 4. 14. Rom. Cie 1. off Caluin vpoÌ„ the cpistle and Insti l. 3. ca. 15. s 5. 1. Cor. 10. Mat. 5. 29. Gal. 6. 18. Mat. 6 1. Cor. 8. 11. Rom. 14. 15. 20. Bucer vpon the 18. of S. Math. 1. Cor. 14. Rom. 14. 19. Rom. 14. 24. epist. 1. Cor. 5. 2 Tim. 2. 18. 1. Tim. 2. 20. 2. Cor. 13. Pag. 667. 1. Tim. 5. 8. sect pa. 5. off his booke 22. Exo. Num. 15. 30. 31. 32. 10. Heb. 28. 19. Deut. Chron. 2. 15. â— Esra 26 ver 27. 28 2. Chro. 6 Prou. 8. 6. Mat. 5. Hosius de tradit Contr. literas petit lib. 3. cap. 6. Cypri in ser de bapti Chr. De praescript advers haeret 2. lib. ad â—â—xorem De Monogam De coron militis 65. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act. 20. Li. 4. con Don. ca. 23. De bapt contr Donatist 5. lib. 23. ca. epist. 119. lib. de spirit sanct 〈…〉 Aristot ad Theode Vpon 2. Tim. 3. Cal. Institu 4. cha 20. s 15. Bez. in his booke of putting Here. to death Ephes 2. Beza in his former booke 1. Cor. 9. Deu. 25. 4. 1. Cor. 9. 1. Iohn â— Deut. 19. 13. Rom. Leuit. 19. 29. Iob. 31. 11. Gen. 26. 11. Gen. 38. 24. Nomb. 35 33. 34. Gen. â— Math. 26 Iohn 18. 31. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In theÌ„ c. of punis of forbidden lust In his com vpp Iohn Har. in Mo. super iudic 7. mandati Har. in c. 13. v. 5 Deut. Rom. 6. Rom. 13. Prouer. 6. Deut. 13. 9. ver Deut. 17. 7. ver In the next treatise 4. lib. off the liffe off Const 1. lib. 9. cap. Iulius firmicus Materâ—us 1. Rom. epist. 11. 14. 20. 83. pag. 130. Pag. 133. Act. 1. 23. 1. Tim. â— ver 10. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Plut. 1. li. Epi. 4. 4 li. 3. ca. 3. cap. 15. s 4. li. 5. c. 2. s pag. 133. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pag. 135. Pa. 25. Rom. 1. 12 Act. 18. 26. Socrat. 1. 8 Sozom 1. 18. 1. Cor. â— 5 Vpon the 1. Act. Ma. Beza vpon the 14. of the actes Vpon the 5. of S. Pa. to Timo. ver 22. Vpon the first vnto Titus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ImperiuÌ„ 6. Act. Act. 1. Act. 14. Ansvv to his first question 1. Act. 13. Act. 14. Act. Act. 6. 3. 5. To his
the word off god and example off the auncient fathers altogither vnlawfull And so the estimation which yow haue off the learned maie easelie appeare vnto all men to be as they make for yow or against yow so that when they make for yow they are as sharpe of sight as Egles afterward when they are against yow they see no more then Iayes Yow giue me adresse vnto the wisest godliest and best learned emongest the Ecclesiasticall order to know off them whether they thinke whith yow but your addresse is verie vncerteine for those are not alwaies peraduēture best learned to me that are to yow and iff yow meane those whiche at there ease do not vnwillinglie beholde yow in this wrastle for the crowne of ease and honor whereoff they may be peraduenture some I maie yet haue Good cause to doubte whether they be off that iudgement with yow or at least whether they would oppugne this cause as yow doo for albeit they be content to take some frute off your labor yet it followeth not alwaies that they would doo the like them selues Yow know that there are some whiche will receiue that which is taken by others that would not venture them selues to take yt and Ierome writeth some where that faultes euen confessed please oftentimes Vnto the three next sections THat your counsaile vnto the reader off lookinge before he leape is Good onelie I admonishe that he looke by the candell light off the word off god For that off allteringe our Iudgement yt cometh after to be answered pag. 45. Vnto that which foloweth in the 16. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21. 22. 23. I will answere nothinge sauing that for the proufe off that which I haue set downe and he denieth towchinge the aduantage taken by the faultes off the printer I referre the reader to the corrections in the ende of the admonition And where he denieth that the admonition quoted anie places for the phrase off speache and not the proufe off matter to goo no further I referre him to the first page wher the 7. and 11. off S. Mathew are noted for the phrase and can by no meanes be drawen whether he would drawe them To the 27. sect pag. 24. WHere he accuseth me that I answere not to this sectione in the nexte line I answere to it for confessinge it to be a fallation and shewing afterward how vntruelie it is obiected what more could I answere To the 28. pag. 25 HEre M. D. sekinge busilie to hide his nakednes findeth not so muche as a figge leafe to couer his shame with all Na in sekinge a hole to hide it in he hathe met with a hill to shew it further of He accusethe me of dishonestie that I haue falsified his wordes in saying that he affirmeth it To be a thinge indifferent to come to the cōmunion clothed or naked for that he hathe not vsed this word indifferent yow bind me verie streight iff yow will let me vse no other wordes then yow that which yow said in manie wordes I vttered in one I refuse not to be counted vnhonest iff I haue differred in sense from yow For whether that be a thing indifferent or no whiche is neither cōmaunded in the scripture nor by necessarie collection maye be gathered theroff I leaue it to the Iudgement off all those whiche haue learned that the scripture is a perfecte rule off all thinges publike or priuate necessarie to be done off a Christian man which thinge also after is more at large declared And where the glosse saith that the proufe owt off S. Paule that it is no indifferēt thing For men to cōe either clothed or naked is superfluous I merueile that he seeth not that it is directlie against that he setteth downe whiche is that it can not be shewed owt of the scripture either by plaine wordes or by necessarie collection that men and women owght not to come naked vnto the communion yt was peraduenture more then he woulde haue had but his absurd assertion required it After he saith he knoweth it is necessarie to comelines that a man or woman come clothed but he denieth it to be particularly expressed in the scriptures ▪ as thoughe this were all one withe that which he set downe before and that there were no difference betwene these saiynges yt is not commaunded in the scriptures nor can by no necessarie collection be gathered off them with this it is not particularly expressed in the scriptures And to helpe to clense M. D. Maister Ridley a singulier learned man ād constant martir of Christ must be defiled withe this grosse error Who althowgh being a mā mighte wel erre yet it is incredible that a man of his learninge and godlines coulde fall in so plaine a way as this Therfore onlesse it be made to appeare I can not beleue that euer he wrote so and iff he did I am sure he is well content that as stubble it shoulde passe throughe the fire Wher yow aske whie I toke that exāple and lefte the rest I gaue yow the reason for that the other came to be spoken off more properlie in another place and that was onelie founde there besides that they are farre off another sorte then this Now let me aske yow whie yow placed that with the rest seing yow confesse these in other places to be thinges indifferent and at the ordre off the churche and here denie that yow propounded this as a thing indifferent iff yow graunte the other to be indifferent and denie this to be so yow did euill in couplinge them togither which were not matches yff yow saye they are all off one sorte and confesse that the other be indifferent then I haue truely reported your iudgement in saying that yow houlde this also as a thing indifferent The like cauill vnto this is that he chargeth me as thowgh I had falsified his saying for that I put in steade of his word Argument fallation I would knowe off him whether when he findeth fault withe the argumentes off the Admonition he meane to finde faulte withe trewe Argumentes or false iff as needes must he answere false argumentes I saie that there is no difference betwene a false argumente and a fallation sauing that the word fallation is more proper and the other worde in this signification is vsed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or as I maye terme it abused for in deede a false argument argueth nothing and therfore is no argument no more then a peinted man is a man And where he saithe that I am not ignorant that there are manie false argumentes which be not amongest the fallations and further askethe to what fallation this and that is referred albeit I coulde shew his ignorance in them especially in the two last yet because that were to drawe the reader to moo questions and those altogither impertinent vnto this matter I will stopp vp this heade and put yow in remēbrance that if al were graūted yow that yow demaunde yet
autoritie but also for that they had felowlike autoritie in the deciding off controuersies which rose in their seuerall churches accordinge vnto the lawes After where I quoted certeine places oute off the decrees and other Canons to proue the contention for thes offices the Ans acknowledgeth nothing there that carieth any sounde that waies Albeit the sound was cleare enowghe if he had not bene deafe of that eare For to what ende both in the Nycene Councell where the Metropolitanes are first hard of and when they were yet in the cradell and in many other holden more then 200. yeares after are there founde so many canons for the acknowledging off the autoritie off one Metropolitane in euery Prouince For the honor vvhich he shoulde haue the name he should be called by for the place where they should sytte at their meatinges for the boundes of their circuite doo not all thes declare that there were which were ennemies to that autoritie and that those which were lyfted vp into yt had continuall warre one with an other who should be the first who the greatest who of largeste spreade What meaneth yt also that they changed the seates so often so that the second or third at one Councel was fourth at an other and none at the third and contrariwise he that was none before was cheif afterward What also that the teritoiries appointed by one Councell were abbridged by an other enlarged againe by a third Ys there any man of so smale conceite which doth not hereby vnderstande that this lifting vp of one aboue the reste was a bone caste of the deuill to cause the ministers fall owt one with an other wherby place was made to heresies of all sortes to the vtter vndoing of the church aÌ„d quenching off the gospell And if the D. had bene off so narrowe vnderstanding that vppon so often and so diuers decrees in this behalfe he could not conceiue the contentions which this did breed yet expresse wordes off histories which testifie generally of the coÌ„tentions for those preeminences of Councells as it may appeare by the canons off the Aphrican councel which I haue alledged of the Tauritan which sheweth that the FreÌ„she bishops stroue which church should haue the MetropolitaÌ„ship and how the bishop of Arles and VienÌ„a fell owt for the same were redy to haue informed hiÌ„ of the trwth in this behalfe Yea in the discourse of the Councell of Nice wheron the cheife credit off the Metrapolitane dependeth he might haue redd how almost all the Bishops assembled there had quarels one with an other Which when they were not as doth appeare for diuersitie off iudgement in religion yt is easie to vnderstand that they were for the causes aboue rehersed And if he could be ignorante of all thes yet our stories at home which specifie the combates and going together by the â—ares for thes causes offred vnto him a plentifull proofe off all thes thinges Whherby yt appeareth that this Metropolitaneship was the very apple off contentioÌ„ in schambling for which the church was miserably haled in peaces Therfore forasmuche as the Apostle sheweth that the trwth is kepte by the bonde of vnitie and yt being moste manifeste that thes smokie titles off honor were cawse off contention yt followeth that so farr they are from that pretended off being bulwerckes againste heresies and schismes that they were the principall hookes that pulled them in The Papistes saie that there maie be a bishop of all the whole church because there may be of a prouince I that there can be nether off one nor other They would establishe the Pope by the Archbishop and I ouerthrowe the Archbishop by the Pope This is great ioining with the Papistes If I woulde take the aduantage off your owne wordes firste that there is the same reason of one ouer a diocese and ouer a Prouince and a gaine that forsomuch as one was ouer 12. therfore one maye be ouer a whole prouince I need not seeke for further defense as I haue there declared But againste this M. Caluin and M. Nowell be browght which saie there is not the same reason off one ouer the whole churche and ouer a prouince let yt be so For the one is a more prowder title then the other breaketh in further into the the prerogatiue of Christe then the other And if the church muste needes be accombred ether with Pope or Archbishop let vs graunte so muche to the archbishop that to avoide the Popes iron furnaies wee would be content to grinde in his myll and to a voide the scourge off the one passe by the whip off the other yet heroff foloweth not but that yt ys true I haue set downe For althowghe they are not in all pointes a like nor euery reason which concludeth the one concludeth the other yt hindreth not but ther are certeine reasons which conclude bothe a like That this pointe off keping peace in the church is one off those which requireth as well a Pope ouer all the Archbishops as an archbishop ouer all the bishops in a realme I will goe no further then to the causes your selfe haue assigned For where I shewe that vnitie maie be kepte vvithoute an Archbishop yow assigne two causes for which in keping vnitie yt is meete to haue an Archbishop the one to call the bishops together when there is variance the other to put them in minde of their dewties And if an Archbishop be necessarie for calling of a prouinciall councell when ther is cause off assemblie and when the bishops are deuided yt is necessarie there be also a Pope which maie call the generall Councell when ther is diuision betwene the Archbishops an other cause of generall Councell For wheÌ„ the churches of one Prouince be deuided from other and the archbishops are at variance as yow aske me so I aske yow who shall assemble them together who shall admonishe them off their dewties when they are assembled If you can finde a waie how this maie be doone withowt a Pope the waie is also founde wherby the church is disbourdened off the Archbishop Of the autorities yow alledge nether affirme that the gouernement of an Arbishop ouer a Prouince is conuenient onely they affirme that there is more likelihoode in the one then in the other and that there were archbishops in the churche when ther were no Popes yf one should conclude that becawse a man maie touche the moone with his haÌ„d therfore he maie touche the sonÌ„e and yt be said for answer that althowghe yt be possible to touche the moone yet it foloweth not so of the sonÌ„e who is there of so litle iudgemeÌ„t vvhich vvould gather of this answer that one maye touche the moone vvith his hand And as this proueth that one may ouerthrowe one impossible thing by an other withowt teaching ether off them possible so that I haue alledged 467. pag. perteining to this matter off one vvhich against him that vvould
Wherby also foloweth that where the popular estate or the rule of the beste beareth swaie they can not althowghe they vvould haue an archbishop yea herupon foloweth that ether the Canterbury or Yorke archbishop muste leese his head For yt is concluded off his highe diuinitie that as there is but one prince in the whole Realme so there muste be but one Archbishop His reason the Prince can not els be supreme gouernour off all estates and causes ecclesiasticall to say no more is senseles and hath no knot with that wherunto yt belongeth As if vvhen Roome had both Emperours and consules the Emperour could not be cheife gouernour off the consuls because the Consuls were equall amongest themselues I confessed yt vnconuenient that there should be one Caesar ouer the worlde but that yt may be he alledgeth Caluin that yt is moste absurd to what pourpose what contrarietie is here yt is enowghe for me that there may be and that lawfully a Prince of larger extent of dominion then the archbishop of his archbishopricke althowghe the prince vvould graunte yt him which vtterly ouerthroweth his cause and this being alledged off me afterward is clean passed by For his defense consisteth in this that the Popes widenes off iurisdiction ouer churches ys vnlawfull because he hath yt not of the gifte off Princes and in this that the externall gouernement of the church must be according to the forme and kinde off gouernement in the commen wealth Which is also manyfestly confuted there whence he hath borowed this temony For there he addeth that althowgh yt were graunted that there might be one Caesar ouer all the worlde yet yt followeth not that there may be one bishop ouer all the churches which notwithstanding muste needes folowe if the externall gouernement off the church muste be according to that forme and kinde off gouernement vsed in the commen wealth a For the distinction which supposeth certein ministers of the word and Sacramētes onely and certein to haue to gether with the administration off them the gouernemente also I refer the reader to that before written his vaine cauil that I desire to be vncontrolled off any but off God is answered The D. accuseth me off falsehood for that I charge bim with citing Augustine and Crysostome at large Towching Augustine that he vvas so alledged appeareth firste pag. 583. and both he and Chrysostom pag. 296. Where he saith he vsed that large quotacion onely once in Muscul Cyril and M. Fox he coulde hardly doo yt oftner in the two laste considering that as I remember he alledgeth them once onely but towching Muscul beside the place I charge him with he lefte his aduersary twise to his wide worckes Where he remembreth not that he sendeth to any other writers but with places quoted as particularly as he could his memory vvhich is so miraculouse at other times is here but miserable To helpe yt beside this place off Cal. he sendeth to his Institutes vvithowt any further restreinte as appeareth pag. 132. againe pag. 74. in his former booke for he hath quoted yt in this later Likewise that Damasus calleth Stephen Archdeacon withowt any direction pag. 344. Also alledgeth Gratian Polidore Volateran vvithowte any restreinte 589. pa. I omit that he sendeth towardes th end off his booke to the large feilde off godly interpreters that diuers times he gyueth the booke onely where he might gyue the chap. the chap. onely where he mighte giue the section all which are contrary to that he setteth downe Wherby may appeare what a hard mouth he hath and howe I speake sparingly off this kinde off allegation off his Charged heere by his fonde allegacion off Cal. Institut he answereth I knew there were sundry editions I did so but whether yt be absurd that he should leaue both the beste and moste vsual to take that which is worse and in the handes of fewe onles he mente to play vnder the boorde that men should not vnderstand I leaue to the readers iudgement His reason he had noted yt laboured it and was acqainted with yt is very simple For is yt meete that because he had made his booke a litle heuier with yncke he should be wedded so to yt as to neglecte the commen commoditie how he is acquainted with yt I knowe not but I trust yt hath and shall appeare that there is no more frendship betwene him and his booke in thes matters then betwene light and darknes But yt is foly to reason with him for he addeth Doctorlike that he both hath and will so vse yt still Howbeit how cometh yt to pas that euen in his former booke he hath alledged the later edition belike ether that was some tributary allegacion or els the latter was better to him there then his noted one Howe vniustly he chargeth me with vncerteine direction in ether all or the moste off thes he setteth downe I leaue to be iudged off that I haue said in that behalfe The reste off this diuis with the nexte is nothing but bare and bould affirmacions reproches and repetitions The nexte to it hath nothing but trifling and vnlerned questions before answered That set downe off the inconuenience off many speaking together according to the prouerbe many may sing but not speake at once is not as he saith needles but made way to the necessitie of hauing one which otherwise equal should haue some preheminence in that action The next hath nothing but railing wordes with repetition off repetitions and that beside the matter considering that the cautions I put off the moderator in the assembly off ministers I put not as alwais obserued off the D. Bishops and Archbishops but as those which owghte to be In asking scripture for proofe he dalieth seeking for that he would not find as the scholer the rod he must be beaten with The cocke a glorious and proud birde which will not suffer his victorie to be hidden but proclameth yt forthwith by crowing yet if he be ouercome hideth him selfe Wherin he sheweth a great deale more modestie then the D. which althowgh he haue neuer a spur of argument ether to defend him self or to offend his aduersary yet croweth as high as if the maistrie were in his hande But let yt goe let vs see his fighte To that I alledgrd of Peter chosen by the other Apostels to moderate the two firste actions notwithstanding yt be not set downe he answereth yt is wicked to grounde thalteration of the archbishop and our bishops gouernemente continued long and practised in the beste times of the church withowt yea contrary to the ground off scripture The long continuance onles they haue salte off the worde off God to preserue them argueth they be rotten and suche as caste an euill sauour That they were not in the beste times off the church hath before appeared whether yt haue ground owte off the worde that Peter was chosen by the Apostels
described cccâ—xlix ccccliij Whether refer that the archbishop and bishop are nue ministeries ccccxxxviij Likewise that the first step to this kind off bishoprik began at Alexandria and not in Sion or Ierusalem and that it was after the Apostles times dxlviij Also the first step of preheminence to an archbishoprik ouer many bishops was but a litle before the Nicene Councel cccclxxxv That both this bishop and archbishop had their beginning by bare custome and not by the institution off God cccclxxxv dlxviij These two last pointes being expreslie shewed off the bishops and archbishops may be easely vnderstanded to be true in the Archdeacons and deanes by that dj dxxxvj diiij Yt ys further shewed off the archbishop that hâ— was not in steed of Archflamins instituted by S. Peter as 〈◊〉 pretended cccclxix Where is shewed that there were no Arâ—â—â—lamins vnder the Romain Empire cccclxxj not in England especially in the time supposed cccclxxij We refuse them also for that they exercise dominion Forbidden precisely vnto Ecclesiasticall persons 20. Mat. and 1 â–ª Pet. 5. ccccxxj ccccxxxj Declared in the example off S. Peter which had no autoritie giuen him aboue the rest off the Apostles but was in such respect equall dcvij Here are confuted the endes off instituting this autoritie Whereoff one is pretended to assemble rhe Synodes and to propound the matters dcxij dlxxxij Wherto belongeth that of those otherwise equall it is meet to auoid confusion that one by choise of the rest should rule the action and that yt is not meet that this should be perpetuall ccccxxij Which is conâ—â—â—ed by the example off S. Peter chosen therto by the Apostles and not perpetually dcxcvij made plaine by the examples off the elder and french churches now dxiâ—x The other pretended cause is to remedie contentions ccccxlvâ—ij â–ª dxlix dl dlxxiâ—ij dlxxxij Here also is shewed that he is the cause off contention dlxxix Which being shewed in the bishop and archbishop perteineth in part also to the archdeacon and deane Further against this dominion serueth that they are fellow seruantes fellow brethren in office ccccxx viij dxlv Also for that order and degrees stand withowt them ccccxxvij dcij This ys further declared by comparison of the elder archbishops and bishops with ours dxciiij dcxliiij Namely of Cyprians dxlvj and Ieroms dlxviij Likewise of the elder Archdeacons with ours dij And deanes with ours diiij That the Nicene Councell is far from mainteining the autoritie off our metropolitan dlxij So are the Councels off Antioch and Arles dlxv That Epiphanius Archbishop stood not in autoritie but in excellency off giftes dlx Here vpon we condemn as in all Ecclesiasticall ministers so in these foure al loftie titles as those which are annexed to dominion Wherunto perteineth that names are not alwaies indiffereÌ„t 408 And first the giuing high titles of ciuil honour as those which put a differeÌ„ â—â— betwene the ciuil aÌ„d ecclesiast officer ccccvj ccccxxiij As forbid â–ª 〈◊〉 precisely 22. Luk. cccciiij namely that the bishop Archbishops â—nd by the same reason deanes ought not to be called lordes hauing regard to the vse of our contrey ccccvij dclv Also that the title off Prince part off the Archbishops and Archdeacons name breaketh vpon the possession off the ciuil magistrate ccccvij Secondly in Ecclesiasticall titles we denie vnto them to be called heades off the churches Where is shewed first that that title agreeth vnto no simple creature The causes wheroff are ccccxij The absurdities which folow the giuing off it to any other then to our San. Christ ccccxj The approbation off writers nue and ould that he is onely head ccccxiij The same shewed off the name off Archbishop cccix Hetherto belongeth that it was not so sone in the west partes as in the East ccccxciiij That yt is not shewed to haue bene giuen to any but with condemning off yt in any alowed writer vntill about 380. yeares ccccxcv Wherto perteineth that nue writers gyuing yt to ministers of elder times are shewed to haue doen it according to the times wherin not whereoff they wrote cccclxxxj ccccxcv Likewise that the name metropolitan is not off the same value with archbishop cccclxxxvij And that it is not shewed to haue bene before the Councell off Nice ccccxciiij Also that the Councels off Carthage houlden about ccl and 400. yeares doe forbid this name ccccxcviij Finally hether perteineth that off the counterfait canons off the Nicene Councell handled cccclxxxviij And the counterfait book off Ambrose which mentioneth the archbishop ccccxcj Likewise the name of Arch deacon is not shewed vntill about 400. yeares page 502. Nor off the deane vntill about the same time page diiij Furthermore vpon this that dominion is forbidden them is also forbiddeÌ„ their other pomp off lije Wherof vnto the three causes assigned in my former book xcviij Is added the fourth â—â—0 off this book This ys shewed by comparison off the elder bishops with ours in their apparel houses houshould stuf fare traine off men dcxlxij c. Further that the most part off the riches wherwith this pomp is mainteined is the commen treasure off the church for mainteinance off the miâ—sters which want off the poore and off the vniuersities and th … in this point they haue succeded vnto those which got the 〈◊〉 sacriledge dcxlix Further we refuse the archbishop and archdeacon for that they haue larger charges then they are or can be sufficient for Hetherto perteineth that all the ordinary ministers owght to be appointed to a place and that that place is a particular congregacion no diocese nor prouince ccxcvj ccclx Where the D. corruption drawen from the Papistes is confuted Hether also perteineth that Denis did not deuide parishes Prouinces and dioceses ccclviij Hether also perteineth that by the word off God there may and owght if the case require be moe bishops in one particular congregation â—â—n one dxxvij The traces theroff in the church long after the Apostles time page dxxviij dlâ—â— Likewise that there owght by the word off God to be in euery particular congregation one bishop dxv Hether refer the causes off the falling away of this order which were naught dxx Likewise that care ouer churches inferreth not necessarily charge ouer them dcxxij That the iurisdiction they had owt off their particuler churches was nothing but a reuerend estimation page dxxxij Hetherto perteineth the vse off the church long after the Apostels times ccc Also that the elder bishops were called bishops off parishes cccclxxvâ—ij The examples off Demetrius dxlij off Cyprians bishop aâ—most through the whole 3. chapter off the last Tra. off Cornelius 540. 556. of Dionysius Alexandrinus 558 Gregorie 5â—9 Peter Alexandrinus â—60 Athanasius 56â— Ambrose 492. Al which alledged by the D. as bishops off prouinces were ether of one particular church or off the churches in one onely ciâ—â—e or at the least had far les compas by the twentith part then our bishops This
vse is shewed to haue continued in the Deacons diij We are also confirmed in this refusal by autoritie off a nombre off the reformed churches dcxviij off the Godly writers which haue particulerly spokeÌ„ against ether all or some of these offices As Ierome 598. M. Wicleue 616. Luther 617. Barnes and Hooper 526. Bucer 556. 567. 662. Musculus 549. 598. Caluin 566. 613. c. 629. The bishop off Salisbury 568. Beza 505. Bullinger 426. 567. Hetherto belonge â—â— that the answerers reasons in this cause are drawen almost 〈◊〉 from the Papistes Namely from Pighius Harding and other â—â—pistes against the Catholikes 414. 426. 446 573. 616. 622. And from Harding against the bishop of Salisbury 425. 430. 453. 472. 497. 500 599 601. 611. 612. Ecclesiasticall election IT owght to be with consent of the church first for that yt ys the institution off god This is shewed owt off the 14. Actes 194. Here is disputed off the signification of lifting vp of handes 199 Also out of the 8. 1. Corinthes 209. and Actes 6 134. for that the lightest charges off the church were not doen but by consent off yt where the exception taken from Pigghius is answered Likewise owt of j. Actes 12â— Considering that in that Election which was made immediatly by the lord the churches iudgement was not passed by This ys strenghtned by Nomb. 8. 220. Leuiticus â— Nombers 20. 222. Hetherto perteineth that which the D. alledgeth to the contrary owt off Titus 1. and Timoth. 1. 5 â–ª cclxv drawen from Pighius cclxx Whereto belongeth that the scripture sometime attributeth to the chief in an action that is coÌ„mon to moe then to them confirmed by the manner off speaking both in scripture and otherwise also by the iudgemeÌ„t of Caluin Musculus 196. Beza 135. Bullinger 197. Further that which the D bringeth owt off 13 Act. taken from Hosius cclxxxiij Likewise that the form off the Election should be other now then in time off the Apostels ccxxxv Where the number off Christians and throwgh the nomber tumult in elections is confuted Also that of the difference of religion and maners betwene Christians then and now taken from Hosius ccxlj â–ª Where is handled the shutting forth of papistes Dronkards and Whoremongers Further that the estate off the church was not then popular ccxlix That the confirmation off the election by the magistrat altereth not the forme cclxij Hether also refer the counterfait Ambrose drawen from Pighius off the diuersyty off gouernement off the church then and now cclix This is confirmed of the effectes off the church Election because yt breedeth assurance off the minister in his calling maketh the people more obedient to him as Musculus confesseth cclx Causeth the Godly to loue him 〈◊〉 and bridleth the Hypocrites from outrage against him … xix Hetherto refer that the D bringeth off the supposed contention that this will breed cxxxiiij cxlvij cclxxxviij Likewise of the comparison betwene the effectes off our bishops elections with those off the churches cxlvij. ccxxvij Likewise that the errors off the churches election may be commodiously remedied by the churches hard by by the Synodes and if they faile by the magistrat 23â— That it is the churches liberty as Musculus saith cclx Also that the consent off the parliament touching the bishops election ys not the churches ecclesiastical election Where the D doth but mocke the church ccxxv That certein thinges ar variable in this election hindereth not the perpetuitie off the churches coÌ„sent cxxxvij That the ignorance off the church is not such as both hinder the churches election cxi cxlvj. ccxxix Nether corruption of religion such cxivij Nor of affections ccxxix This is also shewed by comparison off the churches election with that which is coÌ„monly doen in ciuil affaires ccxxiiij confirmed by Peter Martyr ccxxviij Last off all this is confirmed by ould custome ccxx by Councels Nycene cclvij cclxxxiiij CoÌ„stantinople Carthage Toledo alledged page xxxvij off my first book off Paris Orleans with diuers other ccxx Emperours decrees cciij Ignatius cciij Cyprian cxxv ccxâ—ij Where is the D. exception taken owt off Pigghius Gregorie Nazianzene Ambrose ccixxx Chrysostome cxciij Ierome cclxxvj Augustin cclxxviij The exception against which testimony is takeÌ„ from Pigghius Oecumenius ccij Luther ccxiiij Archbishop off Reines â—usanus Celestinus Leo ccliij Off the autorities which he vseth that off Chrysostome vppon the 6 off the Actes is answered cxciij That owt of his book de sacerdorio and S. Iohn drawen both from Hosius cclxxxviij ccxcj The rest ether are nothing to purpose or are shewed flat against him for vs as the Canon attributed to the Apostles off the Ancyran and Antioch can Councel ccxvâ—ij Caluin cxxvj. ccxvj ccxxij Zuingâ—â—us and Bulllinger cxcvj Beza cxciâ—ij Musculus ccixiij and toe example off the Tigurine election ccixv Differing in some point fâ—â—m vs are shewed greatly against him Examinâ—â—â—on an other part off election That the ecclestasticall ministers examinatioÌ„ is instituted in the word ys shewed owt off Acres j. cxxj 6. Act cxxvij. 1. Timothy iij. cxliiij Whether perteineth the example off Ieroboam clxi Althowgh they be knowen yet meet they should be offered vnto yt cxxij yea and examined althowgh some good knowledg be before exxviij That it owght not to be made by one onely as appeareth by the former testimonies Hether belong the reasons of ignorance corruption in religion and affection noted in the former title as those which are common to this aswel as to the churches consent in election This is explaned by comparison off Ciuill affaires res cxxâ—x c. clix Confirmed by example off S. Paul xvj Act. cliiij Whether perteineth that alledged of the D. that S. Paul was receiued at the testimony of Barnabas 160. Especially this examination owght not to be made by the Archdeacon in the election off a bishop cliiij And that the receiuing of a bishop at his testimonie came from Rome cxliij That in the examination with vs the church ys vtterly shut owt howsoeuer the D pretend otherwise cliiij Knowen adulterers owght not to be receiued into the mynistery clxxvj Nor ministers fallen into Idolatry cxlv The law of Moses in that behalf owght rather to be obserued vnder the gospel then vnder the law cixxvj The endes hereof clxxiiij Here is handled the example of Iudas clxviij clxxiiij The Pharisies clxviij Off S. Paul and Peter clxxiiij Likewise are handled S. Peters denial clxxvij and the gentiles Idolatry clxxxiiij Increased by the D. to the end that the Popish Idolatry should semeles Likewise that the decree off restoring ministers fallen into Idolatry was not of the Councel of rebaptization clxxxij That they which are nue come to religion owght not to be receiued to the ministery off the word clxxx That a prouf may be taken off the bishops habilitie in teaching before he be ordeined cl That if they be not able to teach they owght not by the word to be ordeined ccclxvij Hether perceineth that