the Iudge vnto whom they haue appealled and which in stéede to be iudged of him they would iudge him Theophilus Stay a while Eusebius Thou hast not yet gotten or obteyned thy sute Thinke not that wée are become Papistes sithens that we haue spoken vnto thée And that we woulde attribute vnto our selues authority power and iudgment aboue the spirite of God as he doth wée doe leaue that office vnto Antechrist to whom alone it apperteineth We haue not vsed to reproue one onelye stllable of the holy Scriptures But if we discerne put difference betwéene the bookes that are Canonical those that are Apocripha thou oughtest not to accuse vs therefore except thou doe by that same reason render culpable of the like crime the auncient Doctors of the Church chiefely Sainct Hierome and in like manner your decrées and Canons whiche doe seperate those that are Canonicall from those that bée Apocrapha amongst whiche they doe put the bookes of the Machabees Eusebius I confesse that amonge the Iewes it hathe not bene receiued for Canonicall in theyr Sinagogue but it hathe not bene therefore reiected of the Church Wherefore I conclude that those that beny that they are not canonicall are not the sonnes of the Church but bastardes of the Sinagogue Hillarius Thou hast at the leaste kepte that same of â—ccius Behold one shot of his Canons Theophilus If it be so Wherefore then did not S. Hierom enroul it among the Canonicals in that prolegne in whiche be hath recited them all in order doest thou thinke that he would haue rather omitted these here then the other And in the prologue that hee calleth Galeatus which he hath set before the bookes of the Kings both hee not make expresse mention of those bookes amenge the Apocriphas and principally of the second out of y which the place by thée alleged is taken For hee saith that hée hath founde the first written in Hebrew But not the seconde the which hath bene onely written in Greeke The whiche thing as he saith may proue it selfe by the pâ—rase and manner of the speaking the which hée vsed To the which agréeth well that which hee writing against the Pelagians nameth Ioseph for the author of the historye of the Machabees vnderstanding that by him it was written Then if by the testimonye and witnes of Sainct Hierome that history hath bene written by Ioseph bâ—ée ought not to estéeme it to be of more greater authority theÌ„ the other bookes of Ioseph the which we do reade â— no receiue as histories very profitable But a greate deale wantoth that we should attribute vnto them so much authoritie as vnto those the whiche we doe knowe without all doubt to be y body of y holy Scripture Therefore said S. Hierome in the Prologne that hee made before the booke of the Prouerâ—es of Salomon The Church doth read the bookes of the Machabees but shee receineth them net among the Canonical Eusebius Then wherfore hath Sainct Augustin written that the Church holdeth them as Canonicall Theophilus Consider well how he hath writen in that same place which thou alledgest speaking of the number of the times which haue bene sithence the returning from Babilon vntill the comming of Iesus Christe Did he not write that the account and number of them are not found in the holy Scriptures which are called Canonicall but in the other among which are the bookes of the Machabees Doest thou not sée and perceiue that he seperateth those bookes from the body of the holy Scriptures Eusebius Wherfore dost thou cut off fthe tayle why dost thou not adde that which followeth afterwardes The whiche sayth hée the Iewes hold not for Canonical but the Church doth Theophilus But doth he not adde by and by the reason wherefore the which serueth to my purpose Eusebius Hee sayth that it is bicause of the vehement and merueilous passions of some Martirs whiche haue fought euen vnto deathe for the lawe of GOD before that Iesus Christ came in the fleshe and suffred griefes and horrible torments Theophilus He vnderstandeth by those Martirs the seuen brothers of the Machabees with their mother who loued rather that Antiochus shoulde dismember and torment them cruelly then they would obely his commaundements for to violate the law of god It is easie to vnderstand by those words that the Church hath not receiued those bookes in suche authoritie as those which haue bene holden alwaie sin the Prophetical Apostolical church nor to be sufficient for to allow confirme or for to builde any doctrine which ought to be holeÌ„ for an article of faith for to vanquish the hereticks But only in such stéede as we haue at this day the ecclesiastical histories legends of martirs not a heape of foolish fabulous legends made by a heape of dreaming and deceiuing Caphards and Moonks as are the liues of the fathers the golden legend and other like more worthy to be numbred with the Roman of Fierobras Orson Valentine the erring kinghtes Mandeuill or the true narrations of Lutian and others like made for pleasure then among the Ecclesiasticall histories But they haue bene in suche reputacion among the wise men as the bookes of Iosephus Eusebius Sozomenus Theodoritus Socrates and such other whiche haue written the Ecclesiasticall histories and the liues of Martyrs for to keepe the remembraunce in the Churche as in a Chornicle for to edifie and comforte with good examples But not that they are of such authoritie that they are sufficient for to sette foorth anye newe doctrine of whiche wee haue no certeine witnes in the Apoostlicall doctrine And that it is euen so as I doe saye I will not proue it by anye other witnes then by the same whiche thou bringest foorth against mee That is to saye Sainct Augustin who hath written in an other place after this manner saying The Iewes haue not the scripture of the Machabees as the Law the Prophets and Psalmes to the which the Lord Iesus rendereth witnes as vnto this witnesses saying All must bee fulfilled whiche are written of mée in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets nad in the Psalmes But that Scripture is receiued of the Churche not without profit if one doe reade and marke it soberly Doth hée not euidentlye declare by those wordes howe muche the authoritie of the same is abased in comparison of the others the whiche Iesus Christe taketh for witnesses Asmuche maye one gather out of an olde booke whiche contayneth the exposition of the Créede and beareth the title of Sainct Cyprian Hée plainelye sheweth that that booke holdth no palce in the auncient Churche Wherefore it is almoste folly to striue and fight so long time if it were not but that our aduersaries doe make the poore ignoraunt people beléeue that it is of the holy Scripture and that we doe deny it After that sorte haue bene allowed some bookes called the Canons oâ—
the Apostles the whiche some among the auncients and among the Popes and counsels haue bene holden some for Canonical and others for Apocripha bicause that they doe serue in many thinges confirmable to the Apostolicall doctirne but they were not bound vnto them as vnto the holy Scriptures whiche they cannot reiect as they haue done often times when they haue found any Canon whiche séemeth much to differ from the Apostolicall doctirne Euen so maye we do of the bookes of the Machabees We may wel draw out of them examples for to exhorte the faithfull vnto paclence constancy and Martirdome propounding and declaring vnto them the vertue and the faith of that good mother with hir seuen sonnes who stoode so constantlye vnto death for to mainteine the Lawe of Gode who had not yet neuerthelesse such an occasion to doe that as we whiche haue more sure and certeine witnesses of the resurrection and of examples more euident aswell in Iesus Christ as in his Apostles dysciples then they had And so said S. Augstyne But it followeth not therfore that touching the doctrine which concerneth the faith and religion they should be with equall authority with the others And therefore the glose made vpon the decrée recysith them among the Apocripha Eusebius I woulde gladly that thou wouldest declare vnto mée a litle more plainely what thou vnderstandest by the Canonicals and Apocripha Theophilus I doe call canonicall all the bookes of the new testament the whiche wée haue and of the doe in like manner all those whiche are conteyned in the Hebrwe Bible the which we haue receiued of the holy Prophets and true seruaunts of God and whose authors are certeine and knowen And we doe cal them Canonicall which signifieth asmuch as rules bicause they are of an infallible veritie a certeine sure rule whiche is giuen vs of god for to ruel examine al other doctrine to proue the spirites whelter they are of God and for to liue according to the same Eusebius And what vnderstandest thou by Apocripha Theophilus Apocripha signifieth a thing hid secret or obscure which hath no sure or certein author or which is not alowed as are y bokes to y title is applies made at which are not sufferable but insomuch as their doctrin is confirmable vnto that of Canonicalls the which ought to be ruled by them And they haue no firme authoritie but that which those doe giue vnto it For in steede that we may take a sure foundation and buylding vppon any place taken out of the Canonicalls we cannot doe it in those heere if they haue not alreadye their foundation on the other They haue not bene called Apocrypha bicause that it was not lawfull to haue them in ones lybrary and to reade them with iudgement for ones profite For that was not forbidden But haue taken that name bicause that they were not of such authoritie the one should holde them for a sure and infallible doctrine of the church of God And they were not red and expounded openly in the same and with such authoritie as those which without doubt were holden for the certeyne worde of God to the which we are bounde to beléeue and to submit put our iudgement vnder them not to eleuate it aboue them or to iudge them by the other bookes which ought to bée subiect vnto them Eusebius And wherefore haue some of them more that authoritie then the others Theophilus Bicause that of the one we are cert eyne which are the pure wordes of God but not of the others but to the contrary Eusebius By what meanes Is it not bicause the Churche hath allowed them and not the other Now sith that their authority dependeth of the authority of the church if shee doe receine these here as the Canonicall maketh them of equall authoritie wherefore shall not they bée in the same degree Theophilus I doe beleeue that thou doest thinke that the church hath accustomed to legittimate the bookes as the Pope doth legittimate his bastardes The Popishe church may well take in hande that but that is not the propertie of the of Iesus Christ And although she woulde legittimate them yet they must be takē as bastards legitimated by the Pope which cannot be notwithstanding borne in lawfull maryage but do abide alwayes bastards and sonnes of fornication How can the daughter engender and beget hir Mother or hir Father Howe can the Church giue authoritie to the woorde of God who of the same receyueth hirs and of the same is begotten and borne Of whome receiueth the Sunne his brightnesse Doth hée receiue it of men whome hee illuminateth and lighteth Eusebius No. But on the contrary men of it Theophilus Is it cléere and shining bicause that men doe iudge and confesse it to bée such Eusebius No. But bicause that it is such the men that doe sée it and haue the experience are constrayned to acknowledge and confesse it to bée such Theophilus Thou meanest notwithstandinge that the Sunne should bee cleere and giue light bicause that men doe thincke it to bée so Eusebius Thou doest mée wrong to impute vnto mée that which I neuer spake but altogether contrarye Theophilus Thou hast sayd it by other wordes Whereby thou doest not perceiue thy selfe For when thou saydest that the holy Scripture taketh hys authoritie of the church thou sayest that men do giue lyght and cléerenesse vnto the Sun. For as Dauid doth wytnesse the word of the Lord is pure cléere that is the light which giueth light vnto the eyes giueth wisdome vnto babes It is then certeyne and true not bycause the Church iudgeth it such but it iudgeth it such bicause that it is so and cannot iudge of it otherwyse no more then he which hath cléere eyes can iudge of the lyght of the Sunne of whiche the blinde person is not capable Wherefore hée cannot iudge no more then the Infidells and reprohate can iudge of the woorde of God nor allowe it Then thou mayst by this vnderstand that the certeynetye veritie and firmenesse doth not depende vppon mans opinion and iudgement but vppon the holy Ghost and of the proper force vertue and effectes by which it doth verifie it selfe and compelleth the faythfull heartes to allow and receiue it as the lyght of the Sunne doth the eies For the sheepe doe heare and vnderstand the shepeartes voyce but not that of the straungers And all that that the Prophetes haue forshewed and taught the Apostles in lyke manner haue bene verified and authorysed by the vertue of him which hath spoken in them insomuch that all the worlde cannot resist it Nowe wée cannot saye she lyke of the bookes of the Machabees chiefely of the seconde First for that it is not founde in the Hebrewe and that the stile of the same witnesseth cléerely that it was first made in Greeke and was not translated frō the Hebrew tongue into the Greeke tongue
We may take it for a certeyne rule that it hath not belfe written by any Prophet or man worthy to bee accompted for such a one For the Prophets haue wrytten in their proper language to wit Hebrew or in the language of the Chaldees sithence the time of the captinite of Babilon Furthermore it is easye to knowe that that booke hath bene written longe time after the retourne of the people of Israell into Hierusalem and the age of Esdras Nehemias Aggeus Zachary Malachy sithence which wée do not read that the people of God haue had any Prophet that hath written any thing nor other bookes of a certeyne and autenticke authour Wherefore by good ryght this héere is accompted for Apocrypha And although there were no other reason for to diminishe his authoritye but the excuse whiche the authour of the sayde booke made in the ende of his worke that ought to suffice thée Reade the laste Chapter and thou shalte sée it by experience If hée had béne certeyne thorowe the spiryte of GOD that all that whiche hée hath written procéeded from him as the Prophetes and Apostles haue done wherefore shoulde hée excuse himselfe both of the stile of the manner of writinge and of the faultes that he myght haue committed If hée had bene alwayes inspired with the same spirite by which the Prophets and Apostles haue spoken he would haue spoken surely and in the authority of God as those who without excusinge themselues haue sayd The Lorde hath spoken it And Sainct Paul with what authoritie speaketh hee affirming that the Gospell whiche hee hath preached was so certeyne that although an Angell came downe from heauen for to bringe anye other vnto you he ought not to bée receiued but accursed Learne then Eusebius to discerne the bookes of the holye Scripture form the others and thinke not that the church hath holden for Canonicall that seconde booke of the Machabees but as a booke which was not altogether to bée reiected and of which it might serue the Church for declaration of the Scriptures bicause of the histories conteyned in the same whiche doe giue a certeine openinge for the intelligence of the antiquitie as the histories of Ioseph doe Yet neuerthelesse if one marke them well it shall be easle to iudge that the first and the second are not all of one authour not onely by the diuersitie of the stile 〈◊〉 also bicause that in the second are reiterated some bistories and many things which already haue bene intreales â—â— in the first and a great deale better then they are in this If one doe finde in any other booke worthy to bée credited of the olde or newe Testament any like place vnto that which thou hast alledged the argument should haue some colour by the shewe that the other would giue vnto it But forasmuch as it is alone his witnesse is not sufficient as it shoulde bée in the one of the others For God is as much to bée beléeued by one onely witnesse as by a thousand where a thousand witnesses of men without the same of God ought not to bolde any place in the religion But sithence that the superstition of the suffrages prayers for the dead hath begunne to haue crept into the Churche thys booke also hath begunne to take greate authorytie in suche sorte that it oftener is reade and songe in the Popishe Churche then those that contâ—yned more surer doctrine And thu oughtest also to vnderstand that the auncients haue sometime put a difference betweene y Canonical Apocrypha Ecclesiasticall bookes as it appeareth by the authour whiche hath expounded the Creede the which some doe thinke that it was Saint Cyprian other that it was Ruffin But whosoeuer if were of them both they are both of them very auncient and haue deuyded those bookes after that sorte Yée must know saith he that thée be other bokes after the Canonicall which are not called of the auncients of our predeâ—â—â—â—ors Canonicall but Câ—â—lessasticall as are the wisdome of Salomon and the other wysedome which is called Iesus the sonne of Syrach the which booke is among the Latins by that generall tytle called Ecclessasticus by the which woorde the author of the booke is not named but the quantie of the Scripture The booke of Toby is of the same order and of Iudith and the bookes of the Machabees the which they would that they should bée all read in the Church but they would not that they should haue bene settle foorth for to conâ—â—rme the authoritie of the fayth by them The other Scriptures they haue called Apocrypha the which they woulde not that they shoulde be read in the Churche Thou 〈◊〉 sée héere most playnelye howe that they doe attribute more authoritie vnto the Canonicall Scriptures then vnto the Eccleslasticall Scriptures and vnto the Ecclessastical more then vnto the Apocryphâ— but they haue not yet neuerthelesse estéemed those Eccleslassastical which they haue many times called apocrypha of equall and such authoritie as the diuine scriptures nor they haue called them Eccleslasticall for that cause but bicause that they were in such reputation that one niyght reade and signe them in the Churche the wâ—â—â—â— was not permitted in the auncient Churche or bicause that theyr antiquitie or holynesse of their authours added vnto them a â—yttle more authoritie then vnto the other Thomas By that accompte Eusebius then shall bée vnweapened of his principall staffe that hée thought to haue Eusebius If they would after that sort make the bookes eyther Canonicall or Apocripha at they re pleasure it is méere folly to disputs with them For all those which bée not to their mindes shall be Apocrypha Theophilus If thou wilt not be confenâ—ed with the reasons by me alledged go and plead against Sainct Hierome and your decrees If the auncients had not vsed iudgemeÌ„t and wisdome how many bookes would the hereticks haue brought into the Church vnder the name of the Prophets Apostles and of their Disciples The which they haue reâ—â—csed them following that same rule which I haue giuen vnto thée as it appeareth by your decrees which are a great rolle of them But I wil yet do more to the ende I leaue theâ— not an occasion to be miscontented w me I am content by way of disputation to put the case that y booke should be autentick of a diuine authoritie And although it were so it would serue thée yet neuerthelesse nothing at all for to proue that there is a Purgaâ—ory that we must offer for the dead to such intent and in such sort as you do make it And for to declare this vnto thée more plainly I demaund of thée for to begin first ouâ— matter in what time was that made which the history conteineth was it before the coÌ„ming of our Lord Iesus Christ or afterwards Eusebius Before Theophilus Tell me moreouer was the Purgatorye in that time such as thou beléeuest it is
the supper taken avvay from the people The Councel of Constance of Basile Transubstantiition The honourable recantation of Berengarius De con dist 2 Lgo Berengarius Mat 26. c. 27. Marc. 14. c. 22. Luc. 22. b. 19 The Conuent of Monkes Multitude of Masses for hidde De con dist 1. ca. sufficit What company ought to haue the Masse De con dist 1. ca. Hoc quoque Mat. 16. c. 27 Marc 14. c. â—2 Luc. 22. b. 19 The breaking of the hoast De con dist 2. ca. â—riform Sergius 2. Oâ— porci Plat. The names of the Popes changed Bonauent li. 4. dist 12. Hilbert in eleg de Euchaâ—istiu The memento of the quicke of the dead The sâ—pper a 〈◊〉 of reâ—â—â—tion The dispising contemning of the supper King Levves Statutes for the communion Ausegisus li. 2. Ca 38 Fabtan De con dist 2. hâ— Concilium Aga thâ—se â—libâ—â—t De cen dist 2. 〈…〉 Concil Latera The councell of Pope Innocent De pen. remiss omnis v◠〈◊〉 Albert. li. de missae myst The conslareie of the Greekes Purgatory retested of the Greekes The Counsell of Florence Scismes Antipopes Plat. in vita Eng. li. concil The Counsell of Busle Pope Martin Sigismond Emperour The Counsell of Ferrora Plague Pope Engenius A yme Duke of Sanoy Ripailles Pope Felix Purgotory receyned by the Greekes Rutenus Nicenus Beisation Rossensis The VVitnesse VVhich Saint Hâ—ereme ytueth cllus time 〈◊〉 lanua 1. 9. Aertus Hierom against Vigtlantius The opinion that Styne August in had of Pingarory Collo 2. 3. 3. Li. desâ—â—â— oper ca. 16. Addulâ—â— q. 1 in Enchir. ca 68. 69 De ciui deili 21. ca. 26. Tho. in 4. dist 21. Autho. 1. Par. 〈…〉 10. Cap 2. The doctrine of the Apostles perfect Raâ— diui off li. 7. 3. q. 7. in grauib 24. q. 1. odâ— 1. de ponderet extra de renun Nisi 5. 1. Monica Li. confess 9 câ— 11. The affection of the women that follovved Iesus Luc. 24. a. 5. Mat. 18. 2. 1. Marc. 16. b. 6. Iolus 10. â— 11. The vvitnes of Saint Augusture against purgatory of the Pope De ciui det li. 10 â— 1. 24. The true Pargatory De câ—â— Dei. li 10. ca. 22. 1. Timo. 2. â— 5. lieb 1. 2. 3. De eiui Dei. li. 13. ca. 9 De trinita li. 4 ca. 13. De ciuis Dei. li 21. ca. 13 Purgatory in this worlde Enchi â— 67. The fire dinturnall eternall Contra Pelag Hypogu li. 5 Two vvayes onely Other vvitnesses of the most auncion doctors agaynst Purgatory Ter aduer Marl. li. 4. The sieldes Ehâ—eus Abrahams bosome To affirme vncerteyne things Irene aduer ha res Valentma Recogn li. 1. The booke of Clement Purgatory is either far all or els ther is none Psa 32. The diuersltie of opinions touching the suffrages for the dead Theologia Ac. â— demâ—a 1. Timo. 1. b. 7. The certeyntie in the doctrine of the faith required The disputacioÌ„s of the babblers of diuinitie Temerine to affirme Tho. m. 4. dist 21. 〈…〉 Sinne 〈◊〉 holy Ghost Dist 19. ca. 51. Romanorum To sinne against the Pope The couâ—cell of Saint Augustin in Genes 11. 10 Mat. 24. b 24. The elect in daÅ„ger to b. seduced The reigne of 〈…〉 and he vvorking of 〈…〉 â—â—â— 59. a. 5. 2. thess. 2. b. 5 Rash determinations â—â—â—â—nations vvhat thing vve may safely he ignorant off and vvhat not Luc. â—3 s 43. Vnâ—o vvhom do â—â—perreyne the extreme appeâ—â—â—vions in causes of â—d ygloa Ordinary iudge Diuine humayne councells Mat. 18. Act. 15. b. 8. The power of the Pope Dist 34. c. ioctor Glos dist 82. ca. Hrestyter Glo. Apostolorum 17. q. 4. ca. 51. siquis dist 40. c St Papa Dist 96. c. Satis c. simplices inscriptis Dist 40. ca. Si Papa The â—oye out â—f th 〈◊〉 The vvitnesse of Antechrist agaynst his Purgatory De bapt ofsee cap. Maiores causat God pardoneth not the moyâ—ie Versus Magistrales ex glosa Larga Dâ—i pietas veniam non dimidial it Nam nil aut totum te lacrymante dabat Deut. 32. â— 4 Mar. 8. d. 29 Marc. â— c. 25 Pro. 17. d. 28 Iudgement by the vvorld Apothegma CoÌ„mon proâ—erb The incredulity of Thomas Iohn 20. â—â—â— S. Patricks wels The vvorde of God iudge and guide Aene. 6. Psa 119. c. 05. The gates of dreames The gate of Iuory horne The dreames of the Saints of the erring Theologisters The spirite of Bacchus 〈…〉 The vvorde of God iudge and guide Aene. 6. Psa 119. c. 105. The gates of dreames The gate of Iuory herne The dreames of the Saints of the eâ—ring Theologisters The spirite of Bacchus 2. Mach. 12. g. 43. The value of the thousand Dragmas The authoritie of the bookes of the Machabces Books canonical Apocripha The iudgement of saint Hierom touching the bookes of the Machabeeâ— Hiero. Pauli Ioseph y anthor of the bookes of the Machabees The bookes of Ioseph De ciui Dei. li 18. ca. 36 Martirs bescre the comming of Iesus Christ The Machabees 2. Mac. 7. a. 1 Antiochus The legends of Saints Dist 15. ca. sancta Luc. 24. g. 44. The Canons the Apostles Dsti 16. casex againta can canoner propter Dist 16. ca. â—none Glos atâ— The eâ—onicall bookes Apocrypha Vnto whom the iudgement of the scriptures do appertcine Legitimation The authoritie of the Church The authoritie of the scripture Psa 19 c 9 The seconde bookes of the Machabees The sangnage of the Prophets The last Prophets The authoritie of the Prophets and Apostles Gal. 1 b. 8 The vvstnesse of God. Ad Chroma dist 5. ca. saÌ„cta The place of the Machabees serueth nothing at all for Purgâ—â—ory Purgatory before the comming of Christ Luc. 16. c. 19. The Limbe The reason vppon which Purgatory is builded Hipocrites enuious of the grace of God Luc. 15. g. 28. Examples of the mercy of God. Luâ— 23. l. 4â— Priuiledge Saluation by priuiledge Rom. 3. 9. Payne for satisfaction The only death of Iesus Christ doth satisfie Cypr. lib. 4. de bapismo lâ— sent 4. dist 4. sunt The greatnes of the paynes of Purgatory Dist 25. ca. Apostolus Tho. 4. dist 21. aâ— 1. Ric. 4. dist 20. arg 2. Aâ—ber 7. li. com theo ca. 2. Bona. 4. dist 18 Plutar. lâ— de sera numi vind Fable of Gregory Bart. fer 4. heb 4. quadrag Ser de poen purg Fable of Theseus and Pyrothus Verg. Aene. 6. Difference bevveene the fire of purgatory of hell Ric. 4. dist 20. arg 2. Bonauâ—n 4. dist 18. Albet 7. li. com pe tha ca. 2. Thom. 4. dist 21. arg 1. 3 er q. 46. ar 6. Barl. serm de pâ—na Purg. example Anto. â— par suÌ„ Mans reason the foundacion of Purgatory The Iustice and mercy of God. Esa. 9. b. 6 Iohn 3. d. 34. Rom. 3. 24. Gala. 3. d. 2â— Punishment for sinnes Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12 Iohn 15. Gala. 3. â—â— Iohn 3. d. 36 The revvard
of them which Dauid hath written of his enemies saying their throat is an open sepulchre And that which Esay speaketh off saying hell gapeth and openeth hir mouth meruailous wide For of all that they can once lay hand on nothing euer retourneth againe no more then from the mouth of hell and graue But which is worse the graue consumeth deuoureth but the dead bodies but these do deuour both the quick the dead And we may very wel say y these are the Harpyes of whom Virgile maketh mention off But bicause they are faire and goodly sepulchres as the Scribes Pharises who do neuer cease to crye Corban Corban giue giue offer offer and as the daughter of the Horseléech Bringe bringe to the candles of the good Sainct Bicause they are so beautifull pollished without y poore world cannot know theÌ„ although they do sée them deuoure eate vp widowes houses before their eies vnder colour of long praiers For they haue those goodly habites of religion goodly Ornaments Ceremonies goodly names titles and that goodly appearaunce of holinesse which do couer beautifie those sepulchres tombes in such sort that men cannot perceiue the filthinesse infection that is there hidden and kepte close within but passe ouer it without any aduisement as men doe by the Sepulchres Theophilus They are more open and dyscouered then néede required For GOD hathe nowe raysed vppe a people whome they woulde not haue who haue in suche sorte remoued all that filthe and infectyon that it stincketh throughoute the whole worlde And we must not be abashed if they call them the Sepulchers of Iesus Christ and though they doe meruaylously stincke sith that Iesus Christ is altogether deade in them and to them and that they haue nothing at all For if Christ lyue not in vs what other thing can wée bee but dead carryons stincking and infectious who doe not onely rotte and consume themselues but doe rotte and consume with them all other things Eusebius All of you doe cry out agaynst the Priestes Haue you now all sayd It was not inough for Hillarie to speake euill and backebite but that you must ayde and helpe him Theophilus and meddle also as well as hée Theophilus You neuer sawe a man that delyteth lesse to speake euill and backebite and to heare euill speakinge and tales But truth constrayneth mee and you oughte to vnderstande that to speake truth for the health of ones neighbour is not to speake euill backebite and slaunder any man Would to God I coulde speake as much good of them as of the Apostles For I doe loue better to praise their vertue charitie and mercy then to dispise their vices crueltie auarice and rapacitie But what will you that I speake If I doe sée a poore man who is wandring alone in a forrest or woode full of théeues am not I bounde to giue him warning of the daunger he is lyke to fall in If I say nothing vnto him am not I guyltie of his death sith that I knew the daunger And if I encourage him to enter and tell him that there is no daunger am not I then more culpable and worthy to be taken for a murtherer of my poore brother But if I doe admonish him of the daungers and of the théeues Doe I wrong vnto the theenes in callyng them by their name Shoulde I doe better and according to Gods commaundemet to call them good people for to saue their honour and that I should put my brother into their handes to haue them to cutte his throate What goodnesse can I finde in those who from the greatest to y least are al excommunicated iudged Simoniacks and Heretickes vnworthy of all Ecclesiasticall honour and office not onely by the authoritie of the holy Scriptures but also by their owne councells decrées and Canons For how many Councells Decrées and Canons be there that doe forbid to demaunde and take giftes rewardes presents hire or siluer nor any thing whatsoeuer it bée for creame baptisme orders laying on of hands for y earth nor Sepulture neyther for Sacraments nor whatsoeuer office is in the Church vnder payne of excommunication and to be holden and reputed Simoniackes Heretickes and Sacriledgers and depriued and deposed from theire offices and honours and not onely they that receiue the money but also those who doe giue it for such things Thomas There shall be then by that compte no Christian who shall not be excommunicated For among the priests there is not one but hath receiued money for such thinges nor among the people but hath disbursed somewhat Theophilus Therefore you may consider what communion may be in y Popish Church For Saint Peter did not only curse in the authoritie of God Symon the Sorcerer of whome Simony and Simoniackes haue taken their name but also the money that he offred for to buy the gifte of God withall Now if Symon for offering y money hath receiued such malediction what ought it to be vppon them that doe cleane contrary to Saynt Peter who doe not onely receiue but also doe compell the poore people to giue it them I doe not héereby meane that the true Euangelycall Priests and true Pastors of the Church are not worthy of their nourishment and rewarde But I speake agaynst those Merchaunts which are in the Church of God whom Saynt Peter hath forespoken who haue both GOD and the Diuill to sell Paradise â—nd Hell holy things and prophane things and which doe exercise merchandises of all things and are polluted and dâ—filâ—d with all Simonie and Sacriledges that they themselues haue bene constrayned to condemone them And he that will not beléeue me lette him read Platine in the lyues of the Popes and the decrees of the Councell of Elybertine holden in Spayne in the time of Constantine and that of Tholet holden in the yeare 713 and that of Calcedone And the 4. of Carthage And the Councell of Tiburien and Varensian who doe condempne namely those that take money for the buryalls saying after this manner Wherefore dost thou sell the earth Remember that thou art earth and into the earth shalt retourne agayne For the earthe is not mans but as the Psalmist Dauid witnesseth the earth is the Lords and all that therein is If thou doe sell the earth thou shalt be holden guyltie of larcenie as he that attributeth vnto himselfe the thing of an other mans Thou hast receyued it of God fréely giue it fréely And bicause it is altogether forbidden to all Christians to sell the earth vnto the dead and to deny vnto them the graue and burial which is due vnto them Item we must commaunde according to the authoritie of the Canons that one should not demaunde or receiue any thing for mens burialls nor for their graues And hée that would sée the opinion of Gregorie lette him reade the Epistle wherein he rebuked Ianuarius Bishop
propound it vnto them when all other reason sayleth and to shutte their eares against the same to the ende they vnderstand it not Eusebius I came the more willingly bicause I thought my selfe better armed then I was yesterday and that I can fight better to day and to be reuenged haue more aduauntage vpon you For I was yesterdaye sodeinely taken and assayled béeing vnprouided neyther did I thincke that wée shoulde descende into such a fielde to fight or otherwise I would haue come more armed and better in order for to defende my selfe and to fight against you Hillarius Wée dyd thincke no more of it then you neyther were wée prepared nor armed for the same Eusebius I beléeue you well Wherefore I doe knowe nowe by experience that the same whiche is sayde of all you is true For it séemeth that you haue all the holye Scripture vppon your fingers endes and that you haue neuer studyed in any other thing of which I meruayled greatlye in hearinge you speake chyeslye Hillary which is none of the greatest studyentes in the worlde at the leastwise in the holy Scriptures For hee hath alwayes loued better to carry a Virgile or an Ouid in his sléeue then a Bible And yet neuerthelesse hée is nowe a Doctour as if he had passed Doctour in Sorbonne As for Theophilus I am not so much abashed For all his lyfe time hée hath bene very deuoute and hathe alwayes loued to reade in the Bible I am sorry for nothing but for this that hée is become a Lutherian and that hée is nowe so contrary vnto our Mother the holy Church For I would neuer haue thought that he would haue so fought agaynst the good fayth and the auncient lawe But I trust if God vouchsafe that howsoeuer armed you bée you shall not finde mée to daye so féeble as before nor you shall not fight wyth mée so muche at your ease although that you bée two against one yea almost all thrée For Thomas is so variable that I know not of which side hée will sticke too Thomas Yet I am not neuerthelesse a Lutherian but thincke my selfe to bée as good a Christian as thou arte Defende thy selfe valiauntly and thou shalt sée if I bée contrary vnto thée so that thou doe speake wyth reason It is very true that I cannot very much helpe and succour thée For thou doest well knowe that I am an ignoraunt man and that I haue not much studied neither in diuine nor yet humaine bookes but I alwayes followed the good fayth as others dyd sauing that I had sometime some doubt in my conscience and yet more now then euer I had séeing the differences which are in the Christianitie Hillarius But after that wée haue hearde Eusebius wee will giue thée place to expounde it as thou thy selfe hast required And therfore friende Eusebius enter now begin to fight for as far as I can perceiue thou comest not wyth false enseignes nor without hauinge thy harneyes bright But what booke is that thou holdest in thy hande Eusebius It is Eccius Hillarius When theu diddest name vnto mée that greate Captaine and maister Gunner of the papisticall armye thou wouldest make mee to tremble and quake if that I were fearefull But I comfort my selfe againe in one thinge that althoughe that it bee prouided wyth great Canons and Artillarye yet neuerthelesse it is euill prouided and furnished with pouder and shot and there bée no pellets for to make any great breach but accompt it as the Harquebuts which are onely charged wyth paper without hauinge either leade or stone wythin it which giue greate strokes for to make women and little children afrayde But they hurt no man neither doe they make the men of warre afraide nor it cannot pearce thorow their harneis Eusebius I will compell thée by and by to speake otherwyse and I wyll make thée to féele it better then thou winnest Hillarius I staye vppon nothing but that thou dooe put to the fire for to burne vppe and consume that fire of Purgatorye which wyll bée altogether put out and quenched if thou doe not let it In the meane time I wyll make my bulwarke and fortresse of Theophilus for to receiue the first blowes and I wyll not depart from the skirmish but when I shall sée myne aduauntage Neuerthelesse I wyll yet serue thée in stéede of a Trumpet for to make thoe to enter into battaile and to gyue the Allarume vnto thine aduersary Begin then to strike Eusebius Before wée enter any further in the combat I woulde gladly sith that you condenme the prayers and suffrages whiche the Churche both make for those that bée deade that you tell vnto mée howe it is possible that the Church coulde haue erred so long time in that matter and who hath bene the firste authoure and muentour of that errour and herefie syth that you so call it and after wardes I hope for my parte that I wyll proue you the contrarye by suche reasons and authorities that you shall bée constrayned to accuse your selues of errour and heresie and to retourne vnto the fayth of the holy Churche and to confesse that shee hath not taken the custome to praye for the deade of hir owne fantasie wythout beeinge well assured that God hath commaunded it by his woord and that Purgatory was well allowed by the same Theophilus If you had well considered and kepte in minde that whiche we haue already spoken off that is of the custome whiche hath bene amongest the Panims in their funerall Drations and praysinges and howe the auncient Church hath chaunged that manner of dooinge into a better vse You shoulde easely knowe what hathe bene the beginninge of the commemoration of the prayers and suffrages for the dead and that the custome of the auncient Fathers hath differed very muche yea and altogether contrary vnto that which is nowe in the Popish Church But bycause that the same hath bene alreadye intreated off amongest vs amply inoughe I wyll not reintreate nor rehearse it agayne But for to satisfie thy question which thou hast nowe propounded I wyll onely aduertise thée that those errours abuses and that superstitious remembraunce and full of blasphemyes such which we do now sée to be practised about the dead did take great force and were greatly multiplyed by Pope Pelagius who made an ordinaunce much dyffering and contrary vnto the custome of his predecessors and of the auncient Church After whom succéeded Gregory the greate who hath not amended and corrected the abuses errours but hath styll nourished augmented and increased them and hath bene the cause of many Idolatries and superstitions which haue brought great hurt and domage vnto Gods Church And least that you shoulde thincke that I speak without reason authoritie iudge a little of that which Nauclerus witnesseth that Gregory the third hath written vnto Boniface being Legate and Ambassadour into Almayne to wit whether that Christians maye offer for theire
deade which were truely Christians And hath commaunded that the Priestes ought to make commemoration of them Dne may very well presume by that aduertisement and commaundement that which Gregory made vnto Boniface touching this matter that it is not long agoe that the Masse hath begonne to bee a sacrifice for the dead and that the institution is not so auncient as some men do thinke it to bee at the least-wise that Iesus Christ and his Apostles haue not bene the author thereoff For Boniface would not haue kept it secret in that time Wherefore I giue more credite vnto those whiche haue written that Pope Pelagius hath bene the author inuentor and promoter of those suffrages and prayers the which we sée dayly yet in vse amonge the Christians and we call them the good déedes for the dead then to any of those which haue followed the Apostles Eusebius If you had reade ouer and ruminated the auncient doctors of the Churche you shall not finde that doctrine so newe but you woulde speake otherwise and should know that the Churche hath followed it of long time before that Pelagius or Sainct Gregory were borne Wherefore then did Sainct Ambrose make mention writing of the death of the Emperour Theodosius of the first seuenth thirty and fourty day that the Churche did celebrate making remembraunce of the dead and for what cause they did the same of whome the wordes are written in the decrées after this manner Bicause that some haue vsed to obserue the thirde caye other some the seuenth and others the thirty in the office of the dead Let vs consider what thing that lesson in the scripture teacheth vs It saith After that Iacob was dead Ioseph commaunded his seruants that they should bury him And the children of Israel buried him and the forty dayes beeing accomplished for so were the daies of the burial compted they lamented seuen dayes We ought to follow that solemnitie the whâ—che the holy scripture describeth vnto vs It is also written after this manner in Deuteronomium that the children of Israel lamented Moses and did wepe thirty dayes and then the mourning was ended heth those two obseruations haue then authoritie by the which the necessary office of piety and humanity is accomplished Doe you not sée here plainely by the words of Sainct Ambrose that already in his time the Churche did the office and commemoration of the dead and did celebrate in their memory certaine dayes and yet the auncients haue not instituted them after the inutation and example of the Panyms and Idolaters as you say and affirme but after that imitation of the auncient Patriarkes and Prophets and of the people of God Theophilus I am abashed I knowe not whether I shall speake it of the ignorance mallice of your doctors For if they vnderstande that Saincte Ambrose hathe allowed that which they at this day do vphold and maintaine they do greatly erre and shewe themselues to be verye ignoraunt Also if they vnderstand his intention and meaning they are very malicious and wicked to peruerte and marre the sence of the same for to maintaine their abuses and alwayes the more to kéepe the poore people in errour Firste they well perceiue and sée that Sainct Ambrose maketh no mention neither of Purgatory nor of Masse for the dead and that that place cannot serue but for the sorrow that men take for the dead For yet in that time the Churche approched néerer vnto the puritie of the primatiue Churche and was not so muche corrupted as she hath bene afterwards sithence the time of Pope Pelagius and of Gregory the greate This then that he maketh mention of the first seuenth thirty and forty daye in his booke and sermon that hée made of the death and buriall of Theodosius is not set forth by him for to nourishe and holde the pepole in the supersticions of the Panyms as you doe but rather to draw them backe from it and for to induce and leave the Christians vnto more greater honesty and modestye to the sorrowe that they ought to haue for the dead For that cause did he propound and set foorth the example of the Israelites not that he woulde thereby make a law vnto the Christian people that they shoulde mourne seuen thyrty nor forty dayes bicause that the Israelites haue mourned so many dayes for lacob Moses Aaron and Marie their sister yet lesse for to cause Masses to be said and to banket and make the priests broken as they do dayly at the Portuaries and Anniuersaries For then he should teache the Christian people to playe the Iewes and sinne against the Christian liberty if hee woulde of all the examples of the Scripture and of the thinges done by the Israelites draw out take lawes and statutes for to commaunde them vnto the Christian people as necessarie and ordeyned of god For first of all God neuer hath defined nor determined by his lawe certaine dayes nor yet to lament and mourne for the dead nor for to make any commemoration of them as it appeareth very well by the examples asore alledged For the Israelites themselues haue not kept a certaine number of dayes at the mourninge of Iacob Moses Aaron and of Marie For they did kéepe Iacob in Aegypt fortie dayes after that hee was enbaumed and the Aegyptians bewept him Ixx dayes He was carried into Hebron afterwards his sonnes bewept him seuen dayes in Atad But Moses Aaron and Marie their sister were beewept euerye one of them thirty dayes Thou doest see alreadie here that they are not very superstitious in the dayes and that some time they haue vsed eyther more or lesse It should séeme that their ordiuary was but for seuen dayes For it is written Seuen dayes do men mourne for him that is dead but the lamentation ouer the vnwise shoulde endure all the dayes of their life But when it is for some noble personne as for a Prince or a Prophet or anye man of great estimation and renome they woulde of custome prolonge theyr mournynges vntyll thyrtie dayes But they woulde not wyliyngly passe béeyond it as wée sée here in these three examples of Moses Aaron and Marie who were bewept and lamented of the people of Israel asmuche and more then anye other euer were The mourning of Iacob was a little more loÌ„ger bycause he was carried to be buryed a great way and that they carried him from the land of Aegypt into the land of Canaan not that they esteemed the land of Canaan more holy then that of Aegypt as touching his nature or that it had any more vertue for the health of the body or soule of him that was buryed there as the superstitious Christians and poore ignorant do iudge of the earth in the churchyarde bicause that it was blessed and halowed by their Bishops and Priests But they did that for to witnes in the article of the
Doctors of the Churche are of our side or on yours And therefore I pray thée Eusebius that thou doe pursue thine enterprise and that thou shew forth so good places that they cannot be easely plucked from thy hands as they haue done those which thou hast alreadye taken of Sainct Ambrose Eusebius If I would display and shew foorth all that that I might alleadge aswel of the new and late Doctors as of the aunâ—ient I should aswell set them a worke as Hillarius did vaunt himselfe of late to haue set mée on worke but I haue not determined to alleadge others but of the most auncientest and of those whiche are of more greater authorite in the church by the which I will plainly proue that that which we doe now in the fauour of the dead descended from the primatiue Churche and from the traditions of the Apostles For if I would bring foorth the Doctors of late dayes they would by and by reicete and despise their authoritie and woulde make none accompte of it But when I shall haue proued that the auncient Doctors of the Churche are on our side I shall by and by allow and confirme the authoritie and witnesse of the late Doctors and will more easelier stoppe their mouthes except they bée so past shame that they care leproue and condemne all the holy men and Pillers of the Church which haue shored and held it vppe in the time of the Apostles and to affirme that there are not so manye good men and so wise and learned as they are Theophilus Thou shalt not finde vs so vnreasonable Put foorth thy case afterward Iudge whether wée haue reade and vnderstanded those of whom you doe glorye so much in Thomas I haue heard thée speake friend Fusebius of Sainct Augustine namely among others and I am of an opinion that he is the chiefest by whom thou mayst better fight then by any other if thou canst finde in him a strong staffe for to defende thee and to make warre against them For I haue vnderstanded that there is none amonge al the auncient Doctors which wil serue theÌ„ better for to proue their sect then hée Wherefore I am sure that if thou canst do so much that thou canst proue that he is contrary vnto them they shall receiue a great ouerthrow and thou shalt make a great breach in their Castle For if hée so whome they haue their recourse be their enemie they shal haue others which will rise against them Eusebius But so well assured theroff as thou are certeine that it is now daye And to the end thou shouldest not thinke that there are but vaine wordes in my case I will shew vnto them the experience What do those wordes signifie which are written in his Encheridion which are also recited in y decrets and in the master of the sentences saying we must not denye that the soules of the dead are comforted thorewe the pietie and deuotion of their friends that be aliue when the sacrifice of a mediatour is offered for them or that almes is done in the Church But those thinges doe profite those who haue merited them during this lyfe to the ende that they maye afterwarde profite them For there is a certeine manner of liuing whiche is not so good but that it requireth those things after death nor so euil but that after the same they may profit him But there is in lyke manner some kinde of lyfe so good that it requireth not the same And againe some so euill that it cannot haue ayde by those thinges after that this life shal be ended And therefore hee getteth here all the merite by whiche anye maye bee reléeued or gréeued after this life Yet neuerthelesse there is none whiche hopeth to be able to merite towardes GOD when he shall bée dead whereoff hée hath not here made anye accempt This then whiche the Churche hath frequented for to prayse the dead is not contrary vnto that sentence of the Apostle which sayth wée shall all bée brought before the iudgement seat of Christ that euery man may receiue the workes of his body according to that hée hath done whether it hee good or badde For euerye one acquireth and getteth that merite when hée lyued in this bodye that those thinges maye profite him For they profite not all men And wherefore doe they not profite all men but bycause of the difference of the lyfe the whiche euerye one hathe lead in his bodye Then when the Sacryfices bée it of the Aulter or of almes déedes what soeuer they bée they are offered for all the dead whiche haue bene baptised those are giuing of thankes for those whiche haue bene verye good and propitiations for those whiche haue not bene very euill for to make God fauorable vnto them But for the moste wicked and euill although that there bée not aydes and helpes for the dead yet neuerthelesse those are certeine consolations for the lyuing But they doe profite those that they doe profite eyther to the ende that they maye haue full remission and forgiuenesse or without all â—eubt to the ende that the dampnation maye bée more tollerable and easier to beare Thomas Hath Sainct Augustine written that â—usebius Doest thou thinke mée so much a foole that would declare it otherwise I warrant you they would not let mee passe so if they might saye the contrary But I am certeine they dare not do it And though they woulde they cannot For the booke is of faith and credit Thomas Those wordes are very cléere not onely for to proue the prayers for the dead but also the sacrifice of the â—ulter Eusebius One cannot finde a thing more cléerer For it openeth so plainely all the matter perticulerly and goeth before the obiections replyings which those that do speake against it might make For it deuideth the diuers manners to liue and diuers merites of men And giueth to vnderstand that it must bée hée which woulde that such good déedes should bée profitable vnto him after hys death should be here conducted in such sorte that they may profit him that is to say that it must bée that he dye confessed and repentant And hée speaketh not onely this in this place but in manye other like amongest whiche hée addeth yet this that notwithstanding that that which we do for the dead profit not all those for whom wée doe them Yet neuerthelesse bicause we do not know to whom it profiteth we must do theÌ„ to all y we leaue none out For it is a greate deale better that those to whome it can neither profit nor hurte should haue more then they neede then to want any thing vnto those which haue neede And in the same booke he saith moreouer wee doe reade in the second booke of the Machabees that sacrifice was offred for the dead but when one readeth them not in the auncient scriptures the authoritie of the vniuersall Church is not little the which hath
Theophilus If it doe profite as much him which doth not communicate really the Sacrament as him which doth communicate so that he haue fayth as well as the communicant to what ende then serueth to goe to the supper And wherefore hath Iesus Christ sayd deuyde this bread among you and drincke yée all of this cuppe wee shall then néede no more if wee wyll not take the supper really But that the father may send his sonne the husbande hys wyfe the master his seruaunt which may communicate for them and they wythout mouing or wagginge themselues shall communicate spyrytuallye by fayth so that the intention and deuotion bée such in them I am not ignoraunt but that the true communication is spirituall and thorowe fayth wythout which the outwarde bringeth more domage then lprosite But doste thou thincke that Iesus Christ hath instituted the signe and the extericure Cermonye of he Sacrament wyll out cause and that heâ— woulde not but that wee our selues shoulde communicate excepte wée haue some lawfull let which draweth vs backe as sickenesse imprisonment faulte of minstringe it or other like doubt which procéedeth not of our fault of infidelitie or dispisinge it Truelye I wyll not denie but that in such a case those which cannot bée present at the suppen should haue iust excuse and that they doe communicate spiritually with Iesus Christ But I demaund of thée Eusebius if thou wouldest bée content that an other shoulde dine for théeâ— and if in fasting thou shalt be refreshed with the meate that an other shal haue eaten Thomas As for my selfe I wilâ—not agrée vnto it For that is no place in which he must haue a lieuetenant and vicare I bad rather haue him in all other thinges then in the table Theophilus If you would not in coryorall thinges wherefore will you accept it in spirituall thinges can I liue of your soule or you oâ— mine Thomas No. Theophilus Nowe for asmuch as the fayth is the life of the soule it must be that euery one doe lyue of his owne and wée must not say I beléeue as my maybe beléeueth But it must bée that I my selfe doe beléeue and that I doe knowe and vnderstande that which I beleeue Furthermore sith that the woorde of God the preachinge of the Gospell the administration of the sacramentes are meanes by which God nourisheth keepeth augementâ—th and confirmeth the fatith in vs as the lyfe the body by the meanes of bread and other meates wée ought to vnderstande that as there is no man that can take foode and nourishment for mée if I my selfe doe not take it so cannot hée heare the Gospell nor receyue the Sacraments for mee But it is necessary that I doe them my selfe in proper person If I wyll haue the profite yea thoughe I were an Emperour Nowe if tho liuinge cannot doe it for the liuing what can they doe for the dead In lyke manner as touchinge the generall supper which is made amonge all the people howe doe the Priestes handle yors It was not inoughe for them to haue vsurped the Sacrament for them alone a great tyme but that they must yet defrande you of the moytie the same daies that you would communicate For they doe not gyue you to drinke of that same wine the which they doe drinke but haue establyshed and concluded by theire counsells that it sufficeth the laye people to communicate vnder one kinde onely that is to saye of the bread and that there should bée none but they whiche shoulde communicate vnder both kindes of the bread and wine And the same was determined in the counsell of Constance holden in the yeare 1415. the xb daye of Iune in the 13. Sessions agaynst the authoritie not onelye of the worde of God but of all the aucinet Doctors and also of their decrées and Canons Wherefore it is easely to iudge of what spirite those were lead that were ther assisting and which haue made such determination haue iudged Iohn Hus and Hierome of Prague to bee burned who vphelde the doctrine of the auncient Church At the least they could not deuye but that they were constrayned to condempne eyther that counsell or the same of Basle whiche afterwardes ordayned that it was permitted to the Bobemians to communciate vnder doth kindes the which was obteined by great disputation as the Chronicles doe witnesse and the Epistles written of that matter But there is no doubte but that the same of Basle is therein more agreeing to the auncient doctrine It is meruayle that they doe forbid the cup vnto the laye people and theire owne canons in some places do iudge those for sacriledgers excommunicate which do take it but in one kinde doe not take y cup as it it is easely to see de cosi dist 2. in many Canone Thomas But there is great difference betwéene that that you drinke theris For they thinke y theirs is no more wine but that it is changed into y bloud of Iesus Christ thorow the vertue of their consecration But they do accompt and take yours but for wine bicause that it was consecrated Hillarius They giue it you but for to rinse wash the téeth if peradueÌ„ture there do stick any of the flesh which they haue giuen you to eate For according to the witnesse which Humbert Cardinall a Rorguignon hath rehearsed in the honorable recantatioÌ„ that he made for Berengarius conteyning the fayth of Pope Nicholas the which they haue caused him to rehearse and recite wée must beleeue that the body of Iesus Christ is there taken with the mouth of the faythfull and chewed brused with the téeth It is moste certeine that their wine is no more bloud then yours But yer seeing the opinion that they haue and that they doe estéeme it more precious they doe you iniurye to depriue you of it Theophilus I doe meruaile how they dare depriue the people from the cup more then from the bread sith that Iesus Christ hath sayd expresly take yee and drinke ye al. But ther is no doubt y the priuate perticuler masses haue ingendred this error For euen as the Priests haue vsurpled the office to celebrate y supper for others to make their dignitie to be of more value so they would make theirs to differ froÌ„ y same of others to take y both kinds for themselues leaue onely but one vnto y pleople to y end they do estme y the masse supper which the priest celebrateth were more worthy of more greater merite then y other faithful that it bringeth vnto theÌ„ more gaine For after that the people were perswaded in y opinion euery one did set theÌ„ aworke as workmen hired by daies for to sing both for the quick for the dead whereof they receiued great gaine of which we do yet at this day see y great riches treasures of the Monks of the order of S. Bener
woemen which followed Iesus Christe from Galile vntill he was buryed willinge to anointe him in his sepulchre dyd not thinke of his resurrection but did thinke to haue founde him dead as the Angells rebuked them saying why seeke yee the liuinge amonge the dead There is no doubte but that there was yet in them humayne affection towardes the bodye of Iesus Christe as wee haue towardes the dead But to the ende that wee maye haue no more neede to dispute muche of it wylt thou bee contented if I doe alledge vnto thee Augustine agaynste Augustine To whome haddest thou rather staye eyther vppon Saincte Augustine followinge the opinion of men wythout the Scripture and speakinge doubtfullye as vncerteyne or vnto hym and other auncient Doctours wyth the holy Scripture Eusebius I doe not thincke that Sainct Augustine would speake against himselfe nor the he hath bene contrary vnto the holy Scripture nor to the auncient Doctors Theophilus Thou canst not shewe vnto mee that hee hath affirmed the Purgatorye certeynlye But I will declare vnto thee places by the whiche hee hath altogether abolyshed it Marke howe hee hath put none other Purgatorye then the bloude of Iesus Christe hee sayth speakinge of Porphyras a Platonist that hee hath not knowen Iesus Christe to bee the begynninge thorowe whose incarnation wee are purged For hee shoulde haue then acknowledged a Purgatorye And in an other place hee sayth Wee haue then the bictorye in his name which hath taken mannes fleshe and hath liued without sinne to the ende that by hym beeiâ—ge the Priest and the sacrifice we are made the remyssion of sinnes That is to saye thorowe the medyatour of God and men the man Iesus Christe who in hys owne person hath purged our sinnes and restored be agayne vnto god For men are not seperated from God but thorowe sinne for which it lyeth not in vs thorowe our owne power and strength to purge them in this lyfe but therow the mercy God thorow his clemeney not thorowe our power For that vertue whiche is called ours whatsoeuer it bee it is graunted vnto vs thorowe his goodnesse Doth hee not cleerelye shewe that the purgation of sinnes is done in this lyfe and yet not thorowe our owne righteousnesse nor vertue Holve can it then bee done in the other lyfe thorowe the vertue and merytes of an other Furthermore hee manyfestly sayth the soules of the good men after they are seperated from the body are at rest and wee muste not doubt of it but those of the wicked are punished vntyll such time as the bodyes of those doe ryse againe to eternall lyfe and of these heere to eternall death whiche is called the seconde death But is it possible to speake more cleerelye and purely of Iesus Christe and of the Purgatorye that wee haue in him then when hee sayth Thorowe his death that is to saye by one onelye and true sacrifice which hath bene offered for vs hee hath purged abolythed and put out all that that had anye saultes in vs Wherefore the hygher power and those of authoritie doe bolde and keepe vs for to bee punyshed And by his resurrection hath called vnto a newe lyfe wee which were predestyned hee hath iustified those that hee called and glorified the iustified Beholde woords very cleere And speaking of the opinion of Plato he sayth Those which are of that opinion doe thincke that after that one is deud there is no other paines then of Purgatorye for to purge sinnes Alyttlo after hee sayth Wee confesse that in this mortall life there is a certeyne Purgatory paine It seemeth that hee somewhat agreeth that the tribulations and aduersities that man suffereth in this world do serue him for a purgation of his sinnes the which yet neuerthelesse they dare not to attribute but to Iesus Christ Although that we doe commonly say of him which hath had much euil griefe in this world the he hath had heere his Purgatory For that tasteth muche of the opinion of Plato But Sainct Augustin doth not make ther meÌ„tioÌ„ of any paineâ— of purgatoy after this life but he sayth playnely that the soules of the faythfull do rest after the deathe of the bodye But what wilt thou more cléerer then when hée sayeth Some doe beleeue that those also whiche haue not abandoned the name of Christ and which haue bene baptized in hys Church and haue not belie cutte off from the same thorow anye schisme or heresie that in whatsoeuer sinnes they haue lyued in the which they shall not deface and put away thorowe penaunce nor redeemed thorow doing of almes beedes but shall perseuer and continue in them continually vntill the last daye of their lyfe shall be saued thorow the fire Although that according to the greatnesse of theire sinnes and misdéedes that fire shall bée diuturnall but not eternall But mée thincketh that those that doe beléeue this and yet neuerthelesse are catholikes are deceyued thorowe mans beneuolence For the holy Scripture if one doe looke and search in it aunswereth an other thing Thou seest héere Eusebius that be speaketh of the fire of Purgatory whatsoeuer thinge he hath spoken at other time And sayth moreouer that there is but two wayes to wit one of dampnation and an other of saluation But marke well his owne words The fayth of the catholikes thorowe the diuine authoritie doth first beleeue that there is a kingdome of heauen Secondly that there is a hell in the which euerye apostate and straunger to the fayth of Christe is punyshed Wee are altogether ignoraunt of the thirde But wée doe not finde in the holy Scriptures that there is any It seemeth to mee that hée speaketh very cléerely and that those authorities ought to suffice thee against all that that thou canst alledge of the auncient Doctors in the fauour of Purgatory Yet neuerthelesse the better to vanquish and pull thée down I wil yet shew foorth vnto thee some sentences of the most auncient Doctoures Marke what Tertulian sayth It seemeth vnto euery one that is wise which haue heard somtime spoken of the fields Ehseus that it hath some locall determination which hath bene called Abrahams bosome for to receyue the soules of his children and that the same region or countrey is not celestiall but it is yet neuer the lesse more higher then hell in which the soules of the righteous doe rest vntyll such time as the consumation of the thinges restoreth the resurrection of all men thorowe perfect rewarde I doe not prayse that which Tertulian hath determyned of the place wythout witnesse of the Scripture but I thincke it a very daungerous thinge to define of suche thinges wythout wytnesse of the same and I had rather staio my selfe vpon the sentence of sainct Augustine which sayth that it shoulde bee very good that an vncerteyne thing of which not onely the Scriptures doe make no mention of it but doe speake the contrary that
one should affirme nothing And alledgeth the sentence of Seneca sayinge Thou oughtest to affirme nothing of vncerteyne thinges but keepe thy iudgement inoerteyne Also Tertulian propounded not the same but as an aduise not as a biffinitiue sentence and an article of faith Yet neuerthelesse although that hee sayd it that sentence serueth me for to shewe vnto thee that it was no question in Tertulians tyme of Purgatorye after the manner as you haue taken it For hee putteth but one place indifferently for all the elect and children of Abraham which haue bene and shall bee vntill the latter resurrection It well appeareth that hee was of opinion that they were not yet in the celestiall habitations and chiefest felicitie but yet neuerthelesse he assigneth vnto them Abrahams bosome in which all the soules of the faythfull do rest generally without putting any difference betweene those of the auncient fathers and ours nor making mention of paine nor any Purgatory In like manner Ireneus who was next the tyme of the Apostles is not of an opinion very much contrary and differing For notwythstanding that he assigned vnto the soules of all the Disciples of Iesus Christ and the true faythfull an inuysible place whiche is appointed and determyned for them of God in which they shall continue and abyde vntyll the resurrection the which they do looke for Yet neuerthelesse hée assigned but one place for all the Christians the which hee called Disciples of Iesus Christe And bée sayth not that some shall be in paine and other some at rest but hée putteth them there vppon a condition and hée assigneth vnto all no other paine but the taryinge and looking for the resurrection saying that the Disciple is not aboue the Master and that as Iesus Christ is not by and by rysen after his death but taryed the time that was appointed him of God his Father so must hys Disciples tarye for theirs as hée hath ordeyned them It is very true that in the booke which is attributed vnto Sainct Clement it seemeth that hee woulde putte a certeyne kinde of Purgatorye but althoughe the booke were of great authoritie yet neuerthelesse it woulde serue for nothinge for the Priestes Purgatorye For althoughe that hee putteth a certeyne difference betweene the most perfectest seruaunts of God and the others whiche haue not nor could not entyrelye accomplishe the rule of ryghteousnesse but haue yet some mallice remayning in theire fleshe yet hee assigned no paine vnto those Although that hee thinketh that the others are in more greater glory but saith that their soules are kept in goodly pleasaunt and ioyfull regyons and countreys that in the resurrection of the dead when they shall haue receyued theire bodyes and that they re resolution shall bee purged they maye come vnto eternall lyfe Beholde his owne woordes the which he recited as spoken of Sainct Peter vnto Saint Clement But there is no appearaunce that Saincte Peter hath holden those woordes whiche were attributed to him in that booke nor that Sainct Clement hath wrytten them althoughe that the booke is intituled in his name For howe manye propositions be there altogether contrarye vnto the doctrine of Saincte Peter and of all the Apostles But put the case that the booke were verye auucient and of the Authour to whome they attribute it if it be not canonised nor of the Apostolicall authoritie and whiche is more he putteth no Purgatorye in whiche there is pame and torment And when thou wouldest conclude by those woordes that there should be some manner of Purgatorye I wyll vanquishe and ouercome thee by hymselfe eyther that there is none or else that it is for all men And that there is no man so holye but that he must be purged in the same For there was neuer any so iuste and righteous which hath fulfilled and perfected the rule of righteousnesse which hath bene without sinne which hath not prayed with all the Saints accordinge to the witnesse of Dauid for his unquitye and sayth pardon our sinnes and in whome one could not finde inoughe for to purge yea after this lyfe excepte he had anye other purgation then that whiche is made by the bloude of Iesus Christe But although there were none other reasons for to proue that the suffrages for the deade and the Purgatorye are found out and deuised by mans inuentions then the diuersitie of opinions of those whiche haue written and spoken of it yet the argument is verye stronge for they doe propounde the doctrine so vncerteyne that one cannot make any resolution and a greate deale lesse then of the opinions of the Philosophers but doe leaue alwayes the conscience uncerteyne agaynst the nature of the woorde of God whiche alwayes is certeine and cléere Hillarius Me thincketh that I doe sée them holde so theire pro contra that they would make of the Theology an Academia in which one may dispute probably on both sides without giuing any certeine resolution but leaue all thinges in doubt For what foundation hath all that which they doe affirme and saye but vppon fables and mans opinions The which wee may as surely deny as they to affirme them yea by more iuste reason For wee haue more Scripture for to tell them the contrary then they haue of apparaunt reasons for to proue that which they affirme for they are Doctors of which the Apostle speaketh off which doe not vnderstande that which they speake nor which they teach and affirme Theophilus If they were so modest and reasonable as the Philosophers Academians they should not bee so much to bee despysed and blamed There is no doubt but that it is required that wee bee assured in the doctrine of the fayth and religion For there can bee no fayth where there is but opinions wythout certeyne perswasion Wherefore the Theologians haue not so lawful and iust excuse as the Achademians For when the question is but of humaine and naturall thinges it is not so greate a daunger to follow the opinions of men and to abide in doubt But when it is a question of fayth and religion it must bee that the conscience bee assured the whiche it cannot bee but by the certeyne worde of god Now wee doe cleerely see that in such matters they goe not but by coniectures and presumptions and euerye one of them sayth and speaketh that which commeth in his fantasie But if they doe that but amongest themselues by manner of disputation as the Academians dyd and after the manner as sainct Augustine did put foorth the question of purgatorye without affirming it as an article of sayth wée would let them dispute as longe as they will. But behold that which is worse they woulde that theire opinions should bée receyued and allowed as oracles and reuelations descended from heauen and they pronounce and giue their sentence with more greater authoritie then if they dyd speake of the pure woord of God and do compell the
God which is the soueraigne Iudge of al creatures which hath already giué his sentence of our differences by his word and by the mouth of Iesus Christ his sonne and of all his Prophets and Apostles vnto the which we ought to stay our selues But you not beeing contented with them do appeale from God vnto men and from the counsell of the Prophets and Apostles of whom Iesus Christ is president chiefe thorow his holy spirite to the councels of men in whiche the Popes doe rule and are President who according to your doctrine haue such power and authority that they may dispence against the apostolicall doctrine the right of nature consequently against the Gospell the word of god For the Pope hath all the diuine and humaine rights in the cabin and chest of his breast that he ought to iudge euery one ought not to be iudged of any man insomuch that when he shal leade innumerable of people great companies into hell no mortal man ought here to checke and rebuke him of his faultes For he is god who cannot be iudged of men Hillarius It followeth then that if one doe see him to go to all the diuels to drawe thither all the worlde with him that none ought to saye vnto him that hee doth euill For hee that sayth it both iudgeth and rebuketh Eusebius The Canons do not deny but that he is to be rebuked if he be an hereticke that he erreth in the faith Theophilus But you do say that hee cannot erre And herefore when hee is an heretyke and out of the faithe dare we to rebuke him and his doctrine no not by our auâ—â—ority and silence but by the same of God and of all his Prophets and Apostles the whiche we do but propound yea whiche is more by that or the auncient Doctors as thou mightest haue seene and knowen if thou wouldest And if thou doe not content thyselfe with that I will shew vnto thee how that wicked Antechrist condempneth himselfe of his owne mouth and confesseth that there is no such Purgatory as he woulde establish For hee himselfe confesseth after that he is much glorified that God whiche hath saued all men knoweth no worke of imperfection And for that cause be pardoneth not sinnes in part Therefore the glose made vpon that text alledgeth two verses conteining that sentence The great goodnes of god will not pardon the halfe For when with teares wéeping thou comest vnto him hee will giue thée all or nothing Now if it were so that God reserueth one part of the sinnes for to be punished in Purgatory as you do affirme it should follow that God worketh not but halfe with his seruants the whiche none can say without blasphemy For the workes of God are perfect Wherefore if thou haue not Eusebius any better refuge in the holye Scripture then thou hast yet shewed foorth thou hast lost thy cause by the sentence of God and of all his seruants yea of Antechrist himselfe whom the vertue of God compelleth to confesse the trueth against his owne nose and inspite of his teeth as the diuels did confesse Iesus Christe feeling his power the which they could not resist Thomas Thou doest here what matters these people here haue declared vnto thee Eusebius Thou haddest almoste wonne me at the beginning of this disputation confirmed mee in thine opinion when that I heard thee propound the words of Sainct Augustin But now after that I hearde their replyings I am more vncerteine then before Wherefore I muste here the rude of that cause the last sentence the whiche is giuen by the word of god I haue determined to declare vnto you the cause of my voyage as I haue promised after that Eusebius shal haue done with you But I am content to deferre it vntill tomorrow to the ende I maye returne vnto you more resolued Wherfore I pray thée Eusebius that thou prepare thy selfe to fight with them valiantly by the sword of the word of God and that we may see the ende of that Purgatory and also of the Limbe whereof the matter hath bene broken off hath not ben followed nor resolued Yet neuerthelesse this is one pointe the which I desire almoste asmuch the resolution as of the Purgatory And to the end you may haue the more leasure to debate of the matter I will hold you no longer But bicause that it is now so late therfore me thinketh that it shal be better to take the time at our pleasure Hillarius I do like wel Thomas his counsell Theophilus I am content that we do suffer graunt vnto Eusebius all that he would haue to the ende we giue him none occasion to complaine that he hath had no time and the meane to defende his cause Eusebius Sith that it is so I doe agrée to your opinion But it is vppon such condicion whiche is of force that before that I departe from you either that you be of mine opinion or I of yours wherevppon saye a dieu farewell Vnto the Reader It seemeth vnto mee good to adde vnto thee here the sequence of those that bee dead in Latin the whiche was omitted in the margent Fol. 167. where it is translated faithfully into English meeter Oratio siue sequentia ad beatam Mariam pro defunctis Lugentibus in purgatorio Qui torrentur ardore nimio Et torquentur sine remedio Subueniat tua passio O Maria. Fonses patens quae culpas abluis Omnes sanas nullum respuis Manum tuam extende mortuis Qui sub poenis languent continuis O Maria. Ad te pia suspirant mortui Cupientes de poenis erui Et adesse tuo conspectui Et gaudis aeternis persrui O Maria. Clauis Dauid quae coelum aperis Nune beata succurre miseris Qui tormentis torquentur asperis Educ eas de domo carceris O Maria. Lex iuslorum Norma credentium Vera salus in te sperantium Pro desunctis sit tibi sludium Assidue orare silium O Maria. Benedicta per tua merita Te rogamus mortuos suscita Et dimittens corum debita Ad requiem sis eis semita O Maria. FINIS ¶ The table of the principall matters of the seconde parte of the Christian disputations A. A Bell hearing Masse 184 Abragan 154 Abstinence and seperation from women 141. Abstinence from lawfull thinges 141. Abstinence from beasts flesh 170 Abstinence from meates 171. Accidents burned 161. Accidents without substance 162. Adam prest 185. Admirasion of the water and salt 152. Adonis 150. Aduent 139. Aerius 192. Eaesculanus 143. Affection folish towards the deade 181. Affection of women that followed Iesus 193. Alleluya 150. Alexander Pope 141. 163. Alexander Natiuitie 156. Amburbales 149. Aneylia 161. Anchiles 129. Anniuersaries 128. 130 Anexagoras 123. Aunswere to the place of the 19. Chap. of Exodus 117. 144 Antipopes 190 Antiquitie of the name of Masse 183. Antiquitie of the
I did before I haue very much lost my fantasie You doe well remember that I sayd that after that I had spoken to the holy father who hath so well disciffered that matter that paradueÌ„ture I should haue gained my voiage without going vnto him I feare very much that before that I depart from you you will cut off all the way and make it shorter For I hope through the helpe of God that we will visite this day all those chambers infernall habitations without mouing our selues from hence and before that we depart if that the one and the other of you doe that whereof you brag and baunt your selues you will. For you haue promised on euery of your partes that you will haue recourse to none other Iudge but to the pure word of god And as for mée if you take it for the Iudge I am wel content to take it for my guide And I am certeine that it will guide mée better then Cyble guided Aeneas Theophilus If thou doe not hold thy selfe assured Dauid who speaketh by experieÌ„ce can certify thée saying Thy woord O Lords is a lanterne vnto my féete That guyde will not conduct and lead thée vnto thy fathers that are dead as Virgile did cause Aeneas to bée lead of Syble vnto his father Anchises but it will lead thée vnto the liuing God thy immortall father whome by the same thou shalt heare speaks for to put thée out of all doubt Hillarius Ther is also an other point that when we shal haue ended the voiage we shal not go by the gates of dreams as Aeneas or as our holy father whom we haue heard dreame so wel as all such as hée is doe which repose rest themselues in any other bed then vppon the pure word of god For it hath such vortue that whosoeuer resseth vpon it shall neuer dreame nor rane or if hée dreame hée goeth not by the gates of Iuory but by the horne gate which is cléere through the which one may sée as with the eyes in such sort that such dreames are more certeine then that which others doe sée with their eyes as it appeareth in those of Ioseph and Daniel But he that will lye or rest himselfe in any other bed shall neuer cease to dreame and wander astray out of the waye And all their dreames doe go by the gate of Iuory which is thicke as the bones are Wherfore one can perceiue nothing by the same as we doe sée by experience in our Theologians and Sophists whiche are so obscure and darke that one can sée nothing at all For after the they haue well banketed moisted theÌ„selues w that good Theological wine they haue the spirite of wine the which the great God Bacchus hath inspired them maketh them to enter by the gate of Iuory that is to saye betwéene the téeth and chawes which causeth so many exhalations of that diuine licor well tempered with wine so many fumes and heates to ascende and mount into the braine that they do dreame more déeper then the lowest parte of hell and the seate of Lucifer Afterwards they refurne béeing rauished in their Poetical furor madnesse as if they were departed all newly and freshe But euen as their dreames are entred by the gate of Iuory by force of the wing and mouing their chawes and cockscombes as the Organ bellowes so doe they go foorth by the very same gate Thomas Let vs then go in by the other gate and in such fobrietie that we may know the things as though we saw theÌ„ w our eyes But who shal begin to declare shew it vnto vs mée thinketh the Eusebius maketh himself ready Begin then to knocke cause it to be opened vnto vs Eusebius I will enter first by the olde testament Hillarius But take good héede you lead vs not awrye and totake the one for the other For if thou doe erre and go astray we will direct and leave thée into it againe Eusebius But I will direct and leade you well Giue eare then vnto that which is written of Iudas Machabens who sent to Hierusalem two thousande Dragmas of stluer for to be offered for a sacrifice for the sinnes of those which were dead In which place he did well and right For he had some consideration and pondring of the lyfe that is after this time For if hee had not thought that those which were slaine did yet liue it had bene super fluous and vaine to make any vow or sacrifice for them that were dead But for so much as he saw that they whiche dyed in the fauour and beléefe of God are in good rest ioy he thought it to be good and honorable for a reconciling to doe the same for those which were slaine that the offence might be forgiuen Is it possible to finde a terte more cléerer Wherfore did Iudas Macchabeus send such a summe of Siluer the number of two thousand Dragmas which are worth a thousand and two hundreth Crownes if wee accompt them after our money if he had not bene certeine that the offrings and prayers of the lining did profitte the dead Theophilus Thou doest here open vnto vs a goodlye field to dispute off and wil engâ—der to vs many questions the which I will propound vnto thée and we will declare them at large one after an other and afterwards we wil iudge in the ende whereto that place can serue you for to proue Purgatory I doe then first demaunde of thée in what reputation thou hast that bookes of the Macchabees and whether thou do holde them for canonicall or Apocripha Eusebius I hold it but for such as it is that is to say holy Canonical and allowed of the catholike Church For is it not conteined in the Bible Theopilus I do not benie but that it is fastened sowed in betwéene or among the bookes of the Greeke and Latin Bible but it followeth not therefore that it is Canonical of such Authority as the others which we haue receiued of the Hebrews which alwayes haue bene receiued allowed of all the catholicke Churche without any contradiction Eusebius I am not now abashed though you will not receiue the authority of the auncient Doctors sith that you are so shamelesse that you dare condempne and reiect the very proper bookes of the holy Scripture I doe know by experience that you must haue a Bible made according or after your owne pleasure For you are like vnto the auncient heritickes which will not take out of the holy scriptures but the places whiche they thinke moste méete and proper for to giue colour to their herefies and do reiect all the other as vnworthy of the spirite of god Is not that to great arrogancie to make the spirite of God his word to be subiect vnto your iudgement Thou mayst wel perceiue Thomas that now they doe féele themselues muche gréeued when they are constrayned to refuse
papistical Theologians would héere vse their accustomed licence which is to peruert marre all tongues and languages giuing vnto them an other sence a signification to make a new one as the Iargon of the beggers Ostirians which none vnderstandeth but themselues Theophilus It must néedes be so or els that they dooe take the word of Limbe by a Metaphore comparison and stmilitude for extermitie as farre as I can iudge as well I by thy words before alledged and allowed as by those of you Theologians For in disputing of those internal habitatiōs they confesse by their bookes that it is vncertein which is néerest vnto hell either the Limbe or Purgatory As touching the Limbe of the fathers they affirme assuredly that in the time when it was it was situated in a place more higher And as touching that of the children they say that after the latter iudgement it shall bée in the earth a little aboue the same and hell shal be in the bottom and Purgatory shall be then all one with hell Hillarius I would gladly knows what meatinges and measurings they vse in those lowe territories whether they doe measure the landes countryes by cubites elles rodes miles and other lyke measures such as the Geometrians and Astronomers haue At the leastwise they are more skilfull in such Arte then euer they were For they doe measure the regions and countries which yet are not But for a ful resolution we can conclude none other thing by their Geomitry and discription but that purgatory and the Limbe are the confins or the suburbes either of hel or of Paradise Theophilus If the Limbe of the fathers were one of the suburbes of hell it must bée that the citie should be a great way off from the suburbes For Abraham cléerely witnesseth that there is such a distaunce from his bosome the which thou taketh for the Limbe vnto hell in which the rich man was that it is impossible to passe from the one to the other bicause of the horrible goulfe and depth which is betwéene them both Hillarius Peraduenture wée may deceiue our selues For how doest thou know whether they do pronounce Limbe for Lembe For Lembe in Greeke and Latine signifieth a little ship and very swift or a gally Wherefore it may be that they do meane that the auncient fathers were detained kept in that Lembe as in a ship as Noe was in his Arke to the end they should not fall into that déepe lake of Hell and be drowned in the goulfe of those deepe riuers of which we haue spoken off so much For all their ease goeth by poetical faynings But howsoeuer they will take it I dare proue it by the olde men of our countrey that it is most lykest to be true that the Limbe at the least the same of the poung children ought rather to be in the suburbes of Paradise then of hell For they doe bolde for certeyne that the younge children which for wanting of exterior and outward baptisme are sent vnto the Limbe hearing from thence where they are the ioyes of Paradise but they cannot sée them the which is vnto them a meruaylous torment Neuerthelesse the good olde men woulde not haue spoken so assuredly if they had not heard it so preached of the great Theologians and Doctors Nowe sithence that from the Limbe the young children do heare the ioyes of Paradise reasō declareth vnto vs that the Limbe ought not to be farre off from paradise but that it may haue only some wal or a certein vayle betwéene them both which may hinder and let their sight either that they do make a great noyse in paradise or else that the eares of the soules are merueylously sharpe and attentius Eusebius Sith that the Doctors doe say that it is situated builded in a place more higher I doubt not but that it approcheth nigh vnto Paradise Hillarius In stéede then y Virgile placeth the Limbe of the young children at the entering in to hel thou wilt make it at the entering in of Paradise Theophilus Sith that wée doe alreadye esloyne and make our selues so farre from Hell I doe greatly feare that in the ende thy Limbe and thy Purgatorye will not be sounds in Paradise And therefore I demaund of thée againe to knows whether that the bosome of Abraham be a place of voluptuousnes and pleasure or of sorrowfulnes horror And whether y the yoūg children of y Hebrews Iewes which died before y viii day which was deternined appointed for to circumcise thē did go into y bosome of Abraham w the patriarches either into Purgatory or into hell or whether they had an other Limbe a varie Eusebius Thou doest propound vnto mée many questions together to the which I cannot answere according to the order which thou hast kept in propounding them For I will beginne with the latter afterwardes I wyll descend vnto the others As touchinge that which thou demaundest of the saluation of the young Infantes of the Hebrewes I doe aunswere as the Master of the sententes euen so as of the children of the Christians which dyed before baptisme Theophilus Thou wilt then say that they doe perish both the one and the other For the master of the sentences vseth this proper worde saying that it is most true that they perish If they doe perish they are then dampned the which I am sure thou wilt not confesse For you doe put a difference betwéene the dampned and them Yet neuerthelesse you holde them not for the children of god And therefore you denye vnto them to bée buryed in the Churchyard And therefore that opinion of the master of the sentences hath séemed to the other scholastical Doctors too rigorous which do witnesse that they holde it not commonly in that place but they take it for an error the which they haue adioyned with the others which they haue heaped vp together from their bookes Eusebius If he did vnderstand and meane that they went into Hell I wyll not followe his sentencs But I beléeue that he meaneth that they go no other where but to the Limbe Theophilus But was that Limbe whether they went the very same in which the Patriarches were shut in or whether they had a chamber seperated from their lodging Eusebius I beléeue that the young children haue their Limbe seperated from the others or otherwise they should haue had no more paine then the others which haue bene circumcised sith that they cannot yet enter into Paradise but are all stayed in the Limbe Thomas I thinke that you do not kepe the promise which you haue made neither on the one side nor on the other that you abide not within the circuit field the which you haue determined for your Ioustes For you are bounde to flight by the onelye authoritie of the worde of god And yet neuerthelesse it is alredy a good while that I haue heard any thing of
ende Iesus Christe prâ—tended by those wordes that hee hath aunswered vnto 〈◊〉 Theophilus Before we do passe any farther note dâ—â—ygently that notwithstanding that Iesus Christ hath sayed He that beléeueth and shal be baptised shal be saued Yet neuerthelesse in the contrary proposition which followeth he hath not reâ—terated the baptisme He hath not saide he that beléeueth not and shall not be baptised shal be condempned But hath made only mention of the faith and of the beléeuing shewing that without the same none can be deliuered from condemnation the which he hath not affirmed of the baptisme And yet neuerthelesse he speaketh there of the outward and visible baptisme And not only of the same of the young children but of the â—lde and greate ones vnto whom the apostles were sent for to preach the Gospell Now iudge if Iesus Christ hath not required the visible baptisme of the greate ones as necessary vnto saluation how wil he require it of the young children I will geue none occasyon vnto any man by my wordes to despyse the Sacraments For thou knowest already what sentence I haue giuen against those that do despise it But I doâ—â—eane anâ— saâ— that if any good man were eyther among the Turkes or among the Idolaters and Infidels which had knowledge of the gospel true faith in Iesus Christ and that it was not possible for him to bee baptised I cannot beléeue that he should be dampned for lacke of a little water sith that he hath the principall to witte the faith or otherwise the water shoulde haue more vertue efficacie then the bloud of Iesus Christ or at the least as much And the Priest which administreth the baptisme should haue as much power as Iesus Christ himselfe For it should follow that euen as the water or the Minister in like manner can do nothing without the spirit bloud of Iesus Christ that Iesus Christes spirit also nor his bloud could doe any thing without the water and the Minister And so Iesus Christ and his espirit should be as much subiect vnto the Minister and the water as the water and the Minister vnto them And so consequently his grace mercy shall be bound vnto the corruptible elements subiect vnto men After that manner Iesus Christ should bée no more a true God nor a true Sauiour And so it is easy to iudge that such doctrine procéedeth not of God sith that it â—â—pugneth euidently the grace of God the iustification of faith and the annalogy of the saâ—ie and boâ—â—â— ouerturne altogether the mistery of y redeption made by Iesus Christ The which thing not onely the auncient Doctors but also the Scholasticals and Questionaries haue wel perceiued namely the master of the sentences which proueth by good reasons and by the witnesse of the auncient Doctors of the Church that some are iustified saued without baptisme amongest whom saint Augustine comprehendeth all those which are dead and haue suffered martyrdome for the conâ—â—â—â—ion of Iesus Christ In like manner the authoritie of Cyprian is sette foorth by the master of the sentences by the which he witnesseth that the saith the repenâ—aunce and conuersâ—on of the heart doth recompence and suffice for baptisme vnto those that haue not the time nor place for to receiue it they doe call it baptisme of 〈◊〉 And for confirmation of this he ioyneth to the example of the théeâ—e which was crucified next to Iesus the which saith he was not crucified for the name of Christ but for his demerits and wicked déedes And he did not suffer bicause â—e beléued but in suffering he beléeued It is then declared in that theeâ—e how much sayth aâ—ayleth without the Sacrament of visible baptisme The which the Apostle sayth The beléefe of the heart iustifieth and to knowledge with the mouth maketh a man safe But then hée doth accomplish it inuisibly when the necessitye shutteth vp and hideth the Sacrament of baptisme not the dispisinge of the religion Hee may haue some kinde of baptisme where he shall not haue couersion of y heart And the conuersion of the heart maye bée in some without hauing receiued baptisme But it cannot be ther where baptisme is dispised and we must not in no wise call that conuersion of the heart vnto God when the sacrament of God is dispised Be holde the witnesse the whiche vppon that matter Gratian alledgeth in his booke of decretalls and the master of the sentences taken of Cyprian addeth the same of Saint Ambrose touching the Emperour Valentiâ—ian who dyed without baptisme of whoÌ„ he saith I haue lost him whom I ought to haue regenerated But yet neuerthelesse hée hath not lost the grace the which hée required Now if we ought to haue such confidence and trust of the health and saluation of the great and olde men which coulde not haue the baptisme by a more stronger reason we ought to haue it of the young Infants For if they be of Gods elect it is in his power to baptise them in their mothers belly by his holy spirit to sanctifie them as it is written of Iacob of â—eremy Sainct Iohn Baptist of Saint Paul Eusebius How can we then absolue the proposition of Iesus Christ For it is generall and exclusiue without excepting any person Theophilus As much may I say of that that he hath said of his flesh and of his bloud speaking in this manner verely verely I say vnto you except ye eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud ye shall not haue life in you Doth not that proposition counteruailâ— as much as if he had sayd whosoeuer shall not eate my flesh and drinke my bloud shall not haue eternall life none can denie the same It followeth then that all the younge children are dampned and all those which doe not coÌ„municate in the Sacrament of the supper if the Popish doctrine bée true that Iesus Christ is really in the hoast and that wée must there eate hys flesh and drinke his bloude after the manner as they haue taught vs It shall not be then no lesse necessary to keepe the consecrated hoastes and of the Gods in the boxe for to communicate to the little children to giue vnto them the Sacrament of the Euchariste as the same of baptisme For the wordes of Iesus Christ doe vrge no lesse in the one of the places then in the other And if thou doo thinke that there is great difference I wil shew vnto thée easely that many among the auncients haue perceiued iudged it to be so as I say or otherwise in the time of Charlemaine they woulde not haue kept the Eucharistia for to giue it vnto the little children when they were sicke if they had not esteemed the thing very necessary Yet neuerthelesse it is written in the booke of Ansegisus Abbot of Liege that the same was done in that time there and reciteth the
Annallogie of the faith that none can speake against it except he do loue rather to contende and striue thorowe obstination then to content himselfe with reason And if thou doe diligently consider and well way that which hath béene aunswered vnto thée thou mâ—ist profite by it many wayes For by the same thou maist knowe what ought to be the vse of the sacraments what ought to be the true baptisme and the true regeneration of a Christian If thou dost vnderstande that thou shall bée 〈◊〉 more in doubt nor in 〈◊〉 of the younge Infantâ—â— which dye without baptisme But wylt leaue them in the handes of God and 〈◊〉 reforâ—e all vnto his mercy And if thou bée once come vnto that pointe thâ—â— shalt also knowe the 〈◊〉 oâ— those which doe carie their children that are borâ—â— dead 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they dyd in that 〈◊〉 vnto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of grace of Geneua or vnto our 〈◊〉 of Lauâ—anne Thomas They did also cary them vnto the holye crosse and vnto our Ladye of Butter Hillarius Ther 〈◊〉 now then but a Lady of Chéese 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Butter the whiche is nowe altogether 〈◊〉 Wâ—â— shoulde haue but a little iudgement if wée â—â—â—we not those great abuses and to iudge of those false 〈◊〉 Further more by thâ—se same reasons thou maist iudge of the 〈◊〉 of those which doe giue authoritie vnto the wise and 〈◊〉 â—â—emon to baptisâ— the younge 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 daunger of 〈◊〉 Eusebius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there in that Hillanius Thâ—◠〈…〉 can tell thée Theophâ—â—â—â— There is first of all this euill that those that require such baptisme are of an opinion that it is so necessary vnto 〈◊〉 that without the same their childe cannot be saned Wherein they doe 〈◊〉 vnto the grace of Iesus Christ and doe presume 〈◊〉 of the vertue of his holy spirite and do render publicke and open witnesse of their superstition and infidelitie Againe they sinne in that that they doe dishonour the Sacramentes when they giue and bestowe them vnto others then vnto those vnto whome God hath giuen the charge to administer them Wherefore they cannot fayle either on the one side or on the other but that they are greatly to bée rebuked For if they doe adde to it necessitie it appeareth already into what errour they are If they saye that they doe not put to it necessitie and that they doe not tye the grace of God vnto the corruptible elementes and exteriour ministrie wherefore then doe they giue that authoritie vnto woemen without the word of God Wherefore doo they take any other 〈◊〉 then the same which is giuen them of Iesus Christ Wherefore doe they seperate that which God hath ioyned together For the baptisme the administration of Sacraments are ioyned together with the 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 be seperated without ouer throwing the ornaâ— which Iesus Christ hath put and set in his Church Nowe euen as the institution of the Sacramentes is a publicke Ceremony and ioyned together with the ministrie of the Gospel so ought they to be administred publyckly in the Church by those selfe same vnto whome the ministrie of the Gospel is committed and which of God and of the same are â—lected pastorâ— and ministers And therefore Iesus Christ hath not giuen charge to baptise vnto others then vnto those vnto whom he hath commaunded to preach his gospel to exercise the Euangelicall ministrie in his Church For it is expreâ—â—y forbidden woemen to speake in the Church and to vsurpe vpon them any ecclesiastical office the which thing is not permitted but vnto woemen yet not vnto all indifferâ—â—ly but vnto those which are elected lawefully ordeyned to the same the which he doth sufficiently declare when he coÌ„maunded by his Apostle y all things should be done honestly in order For if in y â— â—â—uile administration order be required that it is not lawful to exercise y offices but to the officers dâ— we thinke y Iesus Christ requireth lesse in the ecclesiasticall policie and that hée will suffer that the same that he hath set should be ouerthrowen Those then that will allow the baptisme of women ought first to shew in what place God hath ordeyned it what witnesse or example of the Scripture they haue If that is wantinge them as I am well assured that it is they shall bée constrayned to confesse that that baptisme is giuen wythout fayth and that it is builded but vpon mans opinion For faith commeth by the hearinge of the worde of god If then it haue not the word of God it can haue no faith If it haue no fayth it is then sinne For all that whiche is done without fayth is sinne We maye then aske them euen as Iesus Christ asked the Pharises touching the baptisme of Iohn Baptist to witte whether it were from heauen or of men Also in lyke manner that baptisme of woemen whether it be of God or of men If they answere y it â—◠〈◊〉 God where are the witnesses of the Scripture Iâ— they answere it is of men as they shall 〈◊〉 constrayneâ— to say they shal be compelled to confesse that it is the procéeded from an other author contrary vnto God â—â—th that Iesus Christ directeth men vnto heauen and vnto God declaring thereby that that which is not of the one is of his coÌ„trary I cannot then conclude but that that baptisme is procéeded of any other but of the aduersary of God which would aduance women vnto the ministerie and ecclesiasticall offices from which God woulde drawe and pull them from it for to declare themselues in all thinges contrarye vnto god Euen so hath hée done amonge the Paâ—â—ms which haue vsed woemen Priestes And amonge the heretickes Martionistes who with their master Martion haue permitted woemen to baptyse as Epiphanius wytnesseth Beholde the examples witnesses which you may haue for your baptisme of women Eusebius I doe agrée vnto all that whiche thou sayest as touching the publyke office and hauinge no necessytie For the Councells Canons and auncient Doctours doe not saye much lesse but doe witnesse playnelye that it is not lawfull for anye person to baptise but vnto the Ministers of the Church as the Bishoppes and Priestes doe But they doe vnderstande the same when there is no extraordinarye necessitie and daunger of death For in such case they doe dispence and permit to doe it not onely vnto lay men and handycrafts men but in like mannâ—r â—nto women Theophilus Wée doe not dispute of that which men do permit but of that which god hath coÌ„maunded I finde no necessitie but wheÌ„ God giueth vs y means that ther may be falt in vs Neuertheles if it be néedful to arme thâ—selues with y authoritie of men in this matter yet wée will proue that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for vâ— For first of all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i◠〈◊〉 that â—â—er Iesus Christ hath sayd â—â—to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and baptise Wherefore
wel assured of it But if that which they do write of the buls and pardons be true it is great felly for the papistes to bestowe any more any pennye nor halfe pennye neither for the funerals nor for y masses vigils nor other suffrages for y dead that they should reiect aâ— other manner of doings for to hold themselues onely to y buls pardons and to buy them for to draw the sâ—ules from Purgatory For it should not cost them so much should haue sooner dispatched riâ— away the poore soules from Purgatory For if the Pope hath in his hands the treasure of the Church hath the power as Alexander de Ales witnesseth by the power of his keys by the meanes of his indulgences to distribute bestow them as wel to the liuing as to the dead the Papistes haue no more néede of any other thing For euen as they haue by their Masses and other inuâ—ntions abolished put out the vertue of the death and passion and of the sacrifice of Iesus Christ so the Popes which haue bene the authors of the buls and indulgences haue abolished masses suffrages al meritorious works for the quicke for the dead which their predecâ—ssors haue inuented without the word of god And so by that meanes one shal haue no more néede not onely of Iesus Christ but also of their masses nor of all that that they can do but it is sufficient for al to haue paper parchment written and buls signed sealed with waxe or with lead â—ut which is more I am very much abashed how they dare to attribute so much power ouer y dead to their buls keys absolutioÌ„s sith that the Pope Gelasius and their decreâ—als Canons doe witnesse and openly confesse that the church can bindâ— and vnbinde those y be liuing not the dead and that wâ—e doe not read that the same was euer coÌ„maunded or done not of Iesus Christ himselfe which alâ—ne hath the power to do that But hath said namely vnto S. Peter Al that that thou shalt binde or vnbinde vpon the earth shal be bound in heaueÌ„ He hath said namely vpon earth For he hath neuer sayd that he that shal be dead being bound shal be vnbâ—und Beholde the very wordes of the Canons which doe well way the wordes of Iesus Christ and doe confirme y that I haue said of the authoritie of the keyes at the least in this place in which is said very plainely that by those words of the gospell is declared that none can be excommunicated or absolued aâ—ter he is dead For he saith That which thou shalt binde or vnbinde vppon earth He sayth not vnder the earth declaring that we may binde and vn binde those that be alyue for y diuersitie of their merits but we cannot giue sentence of the dead Beholde the question that Gratian propounded the resolution in his owne words Thomas How can that agrée with that which hath bene alreadie alleadged of the very Canons which doe giue power to excommunicate the Hereticks after they be dead It must néeds be that the canons be contrary the one vnto the other Theophilus That is not newe nor rare with them But the glosers doe excuse that by their interpretacions and exceptions I doe not denye but that we may condempne dempne after that one is deade the false doctrine that a man and an Hereticke shall holde during his lyfe if then it be manifested euen as it might bée done by some of them of whom they doe alleadge the examples for to aduertise the Churches to the ende that the faythfull might the better kéepe themselues But to excommunicate and curse the persons I knowe or sée not how that can bée boâ—ne with all by the holy Scripture â—ith that they are before theyr Iudge vnto whome the Angells did sende the Diuell as is written of Michael the Archangell who disputing with the Diuell about the body of Moâ—es durst not vse rayling iudgement agaynst him but said vnto him The Lord rebuke thée Yet neuerthelesse those heere dare to enterprise more agaynst men both quick and dead then the Angells durst agaynst the Diuels although that they holde them already for most certeâ—â—e to be condempâ—â—ed of God. Hillarius I am yet abashed of one thing If the Pope haue such power to giue full remission from payne and fault by his bulles moulgences aswell for the quick as for the soules of the dead I meruayle that hée hath not already long sithence made emptiâ— and cleansed Purgatory and that he hath not fetched out all the soules sith that he giueth so many pardons dayly and hourely and not only he but al â—is Cardinals bishops priests monks Eusebius There is a goodly aunswere vnto that question The first is for that there goeth euery day new into Purgatory The other is euen as Saint Thomas saint Bonauenture doe aunswere vnto that obiection that it is very requisite and needefull before that the indulgence and pardon be auayleable that it haue reasonable cause and that the dispensation of the goods and treasure of the church in which are assembled and comprised al the merits of Iesus Christ all the merits of al the Saints and Saintes which euer were should be done with moderation and discression or otherwise god will not accept it And therefor the pardons indulgences are not giuen vnto any person eyther for him or for any other be he quicke or dead but by reason of some good worke that he hath done eyther for him selfe or in the name of those for whome the pardon is giuen And therefore is lymitted the power of all those which haue the charge to giue them al do know be they Cardinals Archbishops Bishops Abbots Moonks or Priests how many they may giue euery day except the Pope which hath not his power limitted except he vse theÌ„ vnreasonably the pardoÌ„s theÌ„ that he wil giue shal not be auaileable with god Hillarius I vnderstand what thou wouldest say The pope hath heaped vp together all the merits of Iesus Christ of the patriarchs prophets Apos tles Martirs confessors virgins saints saintes of paradise of al the Christian Church in a treasure and a garner of which he alone hath the keyes and can open or shut distribute little or much when he will and as it pleaseth him For he is the great lockesimth But al the others are but as his seruaunts of whom he lymitteth the power and the office of euery one in such sort that they cannot distribute but that that he hath delyuered vnto them and of whom they haue the keyes Wherefore if it behoueth that hée haue in the treasury garner a great many of seuerall chaÌ„bers and cabins of which many must haue the keyes euery one his owne for to depart and bestow that whereoff he hath the dispensation without daring to touche the
rest except that sometimes those lyttle varlets and lockesmithes doe picke the locke and the dore of the great loksmith and great treasurer he knowing nothing thereoff and that he be not therewithall content although that vnder his name and title they streth foorth their power as séemeth good vnto them and doe forge keyes bulles and pardons as many as they lyst and alwaies at the costs of the poore people Now the great lockesmith hath no lymit but that he hath alwaies reasonable cause for to giue buls and pardons as many as one woulde so that money doe come or otherwise he will suffer the poore soules to be rosted and tormented in Purgatory as long as the world shall continue for want of one leafe of paper or parchment with a lyttle waxe and leade As concerning the others which haue the daies limitted that they may giue pardons I haue a certeine doubt the which I would that I were resolued of it by thée Eusebius For sith that the one hath power to giue two or thrée thousand an other two or thrée hundreth an other an hundreth fiftie fortie thirtie or twentie either more or lesse I would gladly know of thée what horologes clocks what quadrans they haue in purgary for to measure those dayes there For sith that there is no sun moone nor stars what daies what yeres can they haue For the time is taken of the morning of the heauen of the course of the sunne But those which are in purgatory haue nothing of al this Wherfore I cannot comprehend what yeres what months dayes houres they can haue whether they be very long or short As far as I can imagine by an exāple which Antonius Florentin reciteth in his sum the daies ought ther to be meruailous lōg For he saith that an Angell caryed thether a soule of a man to whome hée promised that it shoulde tary there but an houre And as soone as that Angell did come agayne to see that soule it did begin to crye out vpon him and to call him lyer deceiuer and traytor Thomas To what purpose Hillarius It sayd vnto him Thou hast promised me that I should be but an houre and I haue bene heere already more then an hundreth yeres But the Angel aunswered vnto him There wanteth a great many my friende For thou hast not yet taryed a quarter of an houre Wherefore I doe conclude that it must needes be that the dayes and yeares be there very long sith that a quarter of an houre is there compared to a hundreth or thousande yeares of ours or els that the fire is there meruaylous hotte and that the time continueth long to the poore soules Eusebius I will tell thée as touching the pardons it hath bene long time sithence that many people doe know that there is in them great abuses Wherefore I will not much breake my braynes to maynteine them Theophilus I doe also iudge it lost time to speake of such abuse if I did not sée that sithence the time of Gregory so many people to haue bene abused that so many great Doctors which are most estéemed amongst the Sophisters and Schoolemen haue written of it and haue confirmed it so assuredly Hillarius I know that thou doest beginne already Eusebius to agree with vs I beléeue that thou art of this opinion that the Pope ought to let the dead rest without reigning ouer them sith that they haue more power ouer the Pope then the Pope ouer them as I will proue it by an example taken from the Autentike booke which is intituled the conformities of Saint Fraunces For I haue neuer read that the Pope hath raysed to lyfe any dead person and that he came to aunswere before him of all those whom he hath cyted condempned absolued or excommunicated But that booke doth witnesse manifestly that Fryer Walter a Cordelier and Bishop of Poytiers hath caused to be cyted after his death by a Cedule Pope Clement the firt for to appeare before the eternall Iudge bicause that he had vniustly deposed him from his office Thomas And did the Pope appeare there by vertue of that Cytacion Hillarius If the booke lye not that was no iest For at the verye same daye which was prescribed vnto him the Pope dyed of a sodeyne death and departed sodeinely for to goe and aunswere there What sayest thou by this Eusebius If this history be false it is a great dishonor for the Cardeliers who do make great accompt of that booke and doe holde it to be very pretious among them as a relicke and reuelation And for the Pope also which hath confirmed the order of saint Fraunces and of the foure Mendicants I know not what good meanes we may héere finde for to maynteine that buylding and the honour and authoritie both of the one and of the other For sith that the Pope hath confirmed the order of Saint Fraunces the order of saint Fraunces is buylded and staied vppon the Pope wherefore when the Pope shall fall which is the stone and foundation of that Church and of that buylding also shall fall the buylding the order and the rule of the Mendicants Now we cannot deny but that example doth ruinate ouerthrow the Pope all his power I do not dispute whether that the history be true or false For I beléeue that is as true as it is true that the Pope is God saint Fraunces conformable agréeing to Iesus Christ as that booke ful of blasphemies enforceth it selfe to proue it But I consider onely that sith that the Cordeliers haue written such an history do maynteine it by their bookes that they doe abate asmuch the authoritie and power of the Pope as the Pope doth confirme their rule and order For how can this witnesse agrée with this proposition The Pope cannot erre And with the exposition which Eccius and his lyke doe make of those words Thou arte Peter and vppon that rocke I will buylde my congregation and the gates of hell shall not preuayle agaynst it If the Pope be that rocke or stone and that stone is fallen it must néedes be that all the Popish church doe fall with it and the orders of the foure Mendicants which are his foure Euangelysts and his principall pillers And so by that meanes the Cordeliers whome the Pope hath made doe vnmake the Pope which hath made them and the creature vnmaketh his creator and the creator his creatures Theophilus It chaunced to them as to the Madianits which destroyed themselues the one the other with their owne weapons when they heard the sound of the trompets and pitchers of the army of Gedeon and saw the lyght of his torches So in lyke manner sith that Iesus Christ our true Gedeon hath put the trompets of his gospell into the handes of his lyttle army the which by vertue of his holy spirite he maketh to sounde euen vnto the endes of the
you but the opinions of the Doctors Wherfore I would gladly Eusebius that you would follow that matter and I desire that thou wouldest proue by the holy Scriptures that which thou affirmest of the yoūg children dead without circumcision baptisme Eusebius Doest thou thinke that I speake without the Scripture the which I wil not yet alledge with my gloses and expositions But for to giue more weight and credite vnto my probations I would thou shouldest beare the witnesse of them by the mouth of the auncient Doctors namely of the worshipful Beda speaking after this manner Hée which now cryeth terribly healthfully by his Gopell except a man be borne of water the holy spirite he cannot enter into the kingdome of god The very same he cryed by his lawe the soule of him whose foreskinne of his flesh is not circumcifed shal perish from his people bicause he hath broken my testament Beholde a cléere probation as wel for the children of the Iewes as for those of the Christians Theophilus How vnderstandest thou that threatning against those which were not circumcised For God hath prefired eight dayes for to circumcise the young children Nowe if they doe dye before the eight day and the terme prescribed of God doest thou thinke that the saluation of those children be in daunger Eusebius The word of God excepteth neither little nor great but speaketh generally to all men Theophilus But there could haue bene no fault but in the transgressiō of the cōmaundement of god Sith then that God had determined for them the viij day wherefore ought the young children to perish which died before that terme For sith that God had lymitted the day I doubte not but that those who should haue circumcised them before the day prefired should do contrary vnto the cōmaundement of God. Eusebius I accorde vnto thée therein in those which should haue done that without necessitie and without the daunger of the death of the young childe But I beléeue that when there should haue bene any daunger they might circumeise them before that terme Theophilus And I beléeue the contrary For I can proue my reason by the Scripture the which thou canst not doo thine If it were so then as y sayst it should follow y god was not well aduised when he made that ordinaunce and that the Isralites shoulde be wiser by right and that hée should doe great wrong vnto them sith that he hath not aduertised them of that doing and that he gaue none exception It followeth in lyke manner if the circumcision had bene so necessary vnto saluation that all the woemen children and woemen should perish fith that they dyed all without circumcision the which yet neuerthelesse no man dareth to affirme sith that there hath bene so many holy women of whom the holy Scripture beareth vs witnes Eusebius It is easie to reproue thy consequence For in the institution of the circumcision it is spoken expressely of the males not of the females Theophilus The law yet neuerthelesse sayth euery soule euery person Wherefore if we must take the wordes by rigor without a fitte interpretation wée must comprehend the females if there had bene none other places which doe giue vnto vs the intelligence vnderstanding of the lawe besides that the institution of the same doth sufficiently declare that it extendeth not vnto the women Thē if the womē be exempt bicause that the lawe bindeth them not so are the Infants which dye before the eight day For they are not bound by the law before the terme or otherwise God would not haue held his peace sooner then of ther thinges which were not of so great importance But when the eight day was come I doubt not that if thorow contempning negligence and dispising the circumcision had bene omitted but y the Lord would haue bene greatlye offended not by reason of the signe but thorowe the rebellion and dispisinge of his woorde the which hee taketh in greate displeasure as he hath shewed the example of him that gathered sticks on the sabboth day It seemed that y fault was not great nor such as though he had committed a murther And yet neuertheles god punished him with a cruel death as though he had cōmitted the greatest crime in the world It is then an other thing to haue omitted any ceremony cōmanded of God thorow negligence dispising rebellion or to haue left it vndone thorow necessitie or bicause that it was not possible For when there is let such that man cannot auoyde it and that this minde and will was good and hath trauayled as much as hée can for to execute it I doe not beléene that god imputeth the fault vnto him vnto whom hée was not bounde For the saluation of men consisteth in the alliaunce which the Lord hath made with vs by the which doth the small and greate are receiued and ioyned together in the company and fellowshippe of the people of god We doe not denye but that that alliaunce is signed and sealed by the sacramēts and that the baptisme is but the signe and seals among the Christians as the circumcision was amonge the Iewes But it followeth not therefore that it is firme and certeine inough without that signe and seale Wherfore there is no doubt but that those which do shut vp the kingdome of heauen vnto the infants for want and lack of the signe do vnto them great wrong and do béely the promises of God which by them haue pronounced them to be his before y they were borne saying that he is our God and the God of our children And therfore those which do make that outward baptisme so necessary vnto saluation what other thing do they make of it but a witchcraft and Magical enchauntments attributing vnto the material corruptible elements that which apperteineth vnto the only vertue of God wherto serueth it Wherefore we may wel know the error and ignorance of the scholastical doctors which haue iudged that baptisme necessary vnto saluation For which cause they haue also permitted and establyshed that the woemen might and ought to baptise in tyme of necessitie But the auncient Patriarches an holy Prophetes were not in that superstition and were not ignoraunt of the vertue and efficacie of gods promise and allyaunce nor of the reasons by mée alledged or otherwise the Israelites should haue greatly fayled and chiefely Moses which was the Prophet and conductor of the people of God to haue dwelled at the least the space of fourty yeres sithens the departing from Aegypt vntil the entring into the land of Chanaan without circumcising y children Yet it is to be beléeued that during that time many dyed without being circumcysed and although none had dyed did it not séeme rightly that Moses and all the other Israelites did against the ordinance of god sith that they executed it not at the day appointed Thomas Is it true that they haue abode so long